104-10227-10011 vetlly _ i, . Or was,it the first wife who was study ing. At ono timo she studioed with SOXKOLOV<SKALYA -- there! is such “an German, Dido she study anywhere else. No; at school; after -school..., | a . : You said that she: took -some kind of lessons from sonecone, Crom whom. Thoro must be an crror hero, Sho studiod.drawinr; tho first wife, With whom did sho study? ~ a be 7 “artist -- I heard that she had’studicd with him, And with whom elso, _.. I do not know any nore, Buch a long..., it seems... (XG). And who studicd at tho SURIXOV Studio. — Oh, the painter; well, she -= the first ((wife)) == studied with him; ((Lauchs) ) but in fact, she did not study. You said that you were in, fils studio several tines. I came there one fina, ene timc. Where is the studio Ipeared: I do not rememher.
104-10227-10011 Tt is not - studde: tt ds a schoal . A, You know where the TRETTYANOVSELY Gallery ts GO. "4 ‘4a a b. Well, this,... eat Seens to tnply that everyone KNOWS the alle location)). A. Do you know its addréss B. I do mot renenber the address. HS 8 I know how to get there; it is close to Serafinovich Street; I do- not renembor the street, But t iinow how to get thoro, 2 : oe A, “Were you at the ‘TRSTTYAKXOVSKIY ‘Gallery at least once: B. I was thero several times. oe 2 ‘A, Well, the SURIKOV Studio also is in the TRST'YAKOVSKIY Gallery, |. B. .No, no, no, no, She did not study there, 7 No, no, no, no, eo. Then why did you say that she had studied at the SURIKOV Studio.- I said that she studied at an art school; but what it was called == SURIXOV or whatever -- ¢ do not iknow, She studied at an art school; she told ne; I even went there once, Macy I learned that ehe was not coins to st: rye. ’ Studio and that A, You sald for sure that she studied in the SUR roy ‘you were there, B. I did not say the studia. I said {n an art school: T thousht it was the SIMI“ov C(Studio)).
104-10227-10011 Mot nebo oat the Morr yALey Gallery. A. “elt, the atiudia.., {fs mot A Behuol; a studio and a echool are aff{ferent thines, Lb, A ntudio In A. Vo you want to sO through tac school and the studio wad I do not want anything... ah... waatever you want, pleaso. me juat want to any that, oarlior, you “aatd ono thing, and now you-aro payin: another ( (Pause) ) Well, please tell ue -- after you and your wifo repistered _ you cano to her ((paronts)).:— - B, Well, wo already livod there, wa lived there; z lived on Serafimovich ~~ until registration of tho sarriare, tho official reintration, A, Until the official roristration, How lon did you Ilve topether hefore the reyistration: | Se § think, approx mately two weeks. Why’ . - . Recause we had a snall party. 4 Well, ‘what tind: of. party: Vell, my parents cane to their apartment -- Hother and father. I thin this. was wolves we sulmitted tho declaration ((of intention) ) to register to got married, And from that time I lived on Serafimovich. A, Well, then you actually bevan to live torether hefere the rervistration “4 of tne nmarriace., B, Well, for two weeks, A, ‘Well, who else ws at this party when your parents came to sea her parents,
104-10227-10011 | on Re Only her smother and (Cather: WAS not thore, her Brother was not there lee Tyror' Zoya, her ninter,: was present there Was no one clse AY Your parents were ‘there, and ene hae: f, B. No one elsa. Her paroenta were there, and her inter, a student A, Well, now, I, of course, calculate that, as you said, tho reistration was set for. the 27th. . tho recistration of the marriage. ‘Be Woll, wo talked about... | - . + A. To hold a party, 50 forth; you had arreed on tho 27th and — : probably, as you said, tho party, tho party.was hold at.:your dacha | B. At. tho dacha,’ at Darvikha, Tho people ‘Were: hotiried. a couplo of. Bayas in advance that there: - “would bo a party. _ , B, Woll, of course. AL Give no the nanes, the’ smal ones ‘and the big ones, of tho’ ‘people’ who were present at this s party. B. At tho party, at the party, before the registration of the marriare A. No, no; I'am talking about after the registration, when the wedding was held. B. Then, I told you those whom were fellows in the sane room at wor' with ne... A. RUTYREV..
104-10227-10011 Be And RALoVS. aca re Li: f. A. RAKOVSKIY, and vo was ie one wlse. ‘3B. No one vl#e. A. Who of the friondna of your wife were there: B. No ono; I thins there was no one, ‘Her close friend, Nora, was not there; sho did not want to invite her, A. Thon none of her frionds. were present: ‘B. No.” A, That is strange, Be Woll, sho. had eliene friends «~ - this Nora, - And then at one time sho- sia. frionds. ».« She was friends with... but, _ -g, SUE ‘tho tine of _tho registration, the Folations: with the. ‘brother’ 8. “wife wore spotted bee Zoya and Zo’ ‘ta: ) AL ALL es tn on Hn pe B. No. A, Where was your wite worlaliig at that tine: B, Sho was not workinj;; she. was studying (1-2G).- A. At what institute or university was shor B. Sho was at Hoscow University. A, At the Moscow State University; then there was no one ((fron)) there ((at tho party)). : a ery ee la. anieeear.
104-10227-10011 3 No A. Not even ((one)) of the: instructors, of the ({(students)) B. No One, absolutely no one, A. Absolutely, B. No; no ono, no one. “A, Alricht;. well, wo-will- herin’ == who" amonyr your wifo's relatives were present at this: party. ie ‘B. Woll, tho mothor and father, A, Mother, fathor, re B. Sistor Zoya; tho brothor- was not there; T do not think he was. ‘around; Porhaps | ho was vacationing; he. was not. in Moscow, i - , _ Ho was not with hig. wife, a & i ae ” Thus, from: her side, . ‘the mother hor grandmother — that ta, her Lt 7 father's mother: -= was there, = A. The father's mother... * i 'B, The sistor of the father, without her husband, i A. So; others. 4 i B. Tat was all, i j : A. Now, on your side ((of the fanily)):: 4 . B., Mother and father. Dob, A. Mother and fathor; who’ else.
104-10227-10011 — ne Grandaother | -- maternal e\W- she wae there at ‘that tine, Be has Caley ways lived with one daurhter ‘and then. with another, . She waa here. A. (€1n Enzlish)) ox, RB. Ta8re were the relatives. Well, I do not count my brother = he was still small. _A. Well, who fron anon: your. father's frionds. - of. the friends, there was > MALYSIOT, with his | wif; ‘and, thier. ae .. LAya-er Liltyay . Liya..  “Liya, Well, you know — - compared with: nad'ya - Nagyasit ote. ((Pause)) VAINIXOV was there, with hig wife, with Revettka L* vovna, daughter, Liya. ‘wens, how do ‘you ‘say “At. ome: siaply, bya, and. nothing more? Rg oy No; Liya, ies wie linac Si C(en English)) OK, HALYSNEV with his wife; who-else: Lusya KOSYGINA was there, Dzhernmen GVISILIANT, with her husband. ((Pause)) MALYSUEV aw J] Said; VANNIKOV u. I said. We tnvited OXOPOV; he was there, with his wife. 2 | ¥ OKOPOVY also is dead. 5 i 3 aE tease
104-10227-10011 Ay OXOPOV also is dead. B. Yes. — A. When did he die? ANS B., After fathor, later. SE GP _ A >. A. \ho else, By Lot.) ‘me SOQ «=  Kiavatia Andreyovna KOSYGINA. Boe 7 . es KOSYGIN' hiingelt” was: ‘not at: the: wedding; she was there _ the wife of ‘KOSYGIN. . . That 4s what I remember. . . Who else was theres” | — Sg :  -Ohy. yes} Vadim IVANOV was-présent. - " “A.. Who is: that, ++ yoiir’ fragad “from worky ~:~ ; “as, ' B. No, not. from work; I had. known him for. a (Long time}=% had knows him Cr oa since 1945, eke Bat a | I do not ronenber, i do not-renoabci who ‘else. A, So == who: among your wife’ s. ‘father’ nds were-there? °° ‘Well, ‘he was a big nan, oie me ae DO ‘B. There was no one; not the KOROBOVS ~~ no one, A. What kind of relations were there between GV ISHIANI and STALIN: B. I do not know, I do not know; this is the first time I have heard . ee this -~ about a fanily relationship between GVISHIANI and STALIN «=. this is the first time I have heard of it. A, Well, with BERIYA, . mote obs
104-10227-10011 R. B. "Why with STALIN’ | “Way with. STALING «2 .° chief... ‘This ig the first tine also Eo have heard of this e-a family of relatiLonships. There was no fanily relationship. And GVISHIANI suffered in no way after the arrest of BERIYA. GVISHIANI, until CERIYA'Ts arrest was Chief of the Directorato in Kuybyshev; he suffered: -= he vas ‘removed fron his work and was put out of the Party, and, and.... You have that Dzhermen ((GVISHIANI)) in imind? ‘No, his.father, his father. I am saying -- what kind of relations were there between GVISHIANI ©) and STALIN: | _ Woll, then, GVISHIANI's fathor was the Chief of (1G). 02. I ‘do not understand... - We will return to this} 1£ you. do not know... GVISHIANI's father was - ~~ Of a directorate of the KGB, IVD, MGB, in Kubyshev. And what -~ was he removed after the arrest of BERIYA;” Yes, they removed hin. They put hin out of the Party? Tucy put him out of the Party, and he did not even get a pension. And when did they re-establish his penston- wuts)
104-10227-10011 Pe Be. Todo not Show wioether they Pe -Beinndl shed- tt, very many -— Buch as RAYMAN, YSDOTOY, later =.= ((recetved) ) no kind of pension, nothing. A, Well, they were. not to blane for everything, They followed soncone's§ orders, y, BR. Well, here == FEDOTOV too a job for 0 rubler. ; 4 : a ‘i TUN SRE RY ate, -It was possible for him not to work «= he can write very well, 3, ile te an opel man (6) A. And, woll, Déhertien GVISHIANT suffered tn no vay; B Absolutely tn. no, way, ey What ‘kind of work: did he have under DERIVA: Do you know: B. You havo tho son in mind)“ BL. I think that Innediately after he finished tne institute he becan ae 4 working “in ‘this ‘GuTX, A. There was not GNTK then. B. Well, it was not the GNTK; it. was ealled: ‘differently; it was the Connittec of Scientific Information; it changed its name several tines, A. ((Pause)) Well, all of these people whon you mentioned were there, B. Those are all I renenber. eras \
104-10227-10011 GVISHTANE. “hat, what was satdont the parte, and so forty ae how deo Orheriuen GVIGIUIANT react ((to the necr)) that RENTYA aad LORULOV were Arpested, And wane happened ile must ave been upset: ida Cather had owerked Cor GENIVYA for a lon: “‘elme, low did he behave tn this. Chat was his reaction. I do not remember. I did not Bay anything to anyone; I only” hesard this fron Either; “father ‘and MALYSHEV -— they vero: ‘settin: there, talitag. Voll, 4f your father and HALYSUEV knew, well, comtatndy | VANNIKOV also hnow; Miche. Well, of course, . And VANNIKOV here, ‘and then they told KOMUNNTK vy to my wifo’a. — | father, ' KOSYGIN's. vito, certainly, nis wifo- Algo found out from KOSYGIN and... - and Well, I, l do not vericiabor ‘Buch: ‘a ‘reaction, Well, ‘parnape “it occurred to. tnt that his father. cau bo arrested. ” I do. not Iaiow how it was. ¢ Well, perhaps they did not arrest him, the father, at that time, Perhaps this happened later; I do not insist on this. ((Pause)) Very well; well, how did the party continue as. usual, or did it breal: up. Of course, there was not... well, because the bir shots... Well, of course, you knew that you were an enployee of the KGB, or of the MVD; your Hinister had heen arrested, well, what kind of steps did you take _—
104-10227-10011 You ade that you were ano a three alsyna lenyel. Be LT absolutely did not take any kind of rtepr, A.. Well, Gta you not even call Rtowerk to find out what lnppenod | What and how. “hat ig one supposed to do, when sonething unusual has happened. B. Well, thoy would call me were I was necded; I had a telvphono, “A, Woll,. of course, thore was the teleptiono; but did-no one call -youy. B. Absolutely nothing... “AL Cain you, ‘in your own 1 words , tell mo ‘== now how RERIYA was ‘arrested — what was happoning in Moscow at that timo, Tao. day bofore BERIYA wags arrested, sovoral days before, at the tine of the arrest and ufter BHDs arrest? —_ , what was going on in Moscow. te . What ospocially ‘was noted by add -< - espoctally, of r course, by the oe cacen)) criployoos.... - no Oo 'B, -.4..0f courso, the troops wore drawn in, to Moscow; cven... well, ANE elso wag. noted: . /Tonainskays, Division | -~— & “prominent « one — arrived. . uh... dn Moscow <= I “do. ROE. kniow from where ((Pausc)) What else wns noted: , A, Well, what ind of questions did the Moscow residents ask at that time: ((Pausc)) Well, very well, the three-day honeymoon had passed; you were on leave == the 27th, 2%th, and 29th had passed. B, I thin!: I also was at the dacha on Monday. A. ((in Enclish)) O.K, re
104-10227-10011 - veo You came on Tuesday or wintever day tt ene... you ense to work, n, Well, they were running, around like ants, A. Well, how “Like ants” Wianat, in particular, : , a . Ean Nh. ((Pause)) Again,’ there will be.a reorganization, and so. forth. A. Well, that is understood; that.could bo. _ a B. ot think it immediatoly was known, when I arrived, that the Minister was KRUGLOV. A. So <= who wore the deputios’y =. So poe fom + B, I do not Yomenber. | SEROV was thore, of course. Ds ALS Woll, we havo taliod about: this;- maybo you can feniomber. sométhing... — KRUGLOV, SEROV, who else: B. I do not romember. - a ee ' 7 a avo "A, “Well, I think, anyway you must renenber: = = g I do not remember; well, I would tell you - why should I hide ite - A, tow long did: FEDOTOY worl: under KRUGLOV- B. Then, so <= woll, ho was working in 1954, In 1955, I think, he. was not there -- at the beginning of 1955 ~- because in 1954, in 1954, it was decided, yes, in 1953-54, the problem was resolved concerning the wives of correspondents. Many correspondents were married to Russians and a decision was made —___
104-10227-10011 Then, what are you thiniing == that he was renyved in 1954: ; \ ; : a : - 3 _ GRILANOV. that to poroit thes to leave.,., Because many, wminy tines,. the deer nrensyrenactose os and the embagsics posed this question. I renember that FODOTO/ wan there e~ when thin question wag boing resolved -= fLlo sunaar Los were vtltten out on cach corresponuent Quid on his wi fo} Ne, FHDOTOV, was. a very esacting nan, and he aluself corrected all of these fllo Suanartes, They reawrite then several tines “| But this is‘ not so interesting. ‘No, I sinply am say ing that this is why I recall. this =< that” _FEDOTOV: nlroady was in cagrge of this work . i In 1955, in the beginning; ‘1955 -- yos, yos,. yes. In 195 _FEDOTOV was: there; who replaced hims tho condtictod the necting of the Second Chief Directorate and explained why... explained the decision of the TsK: T do not remember, ‘and I do not cven remember now it was conducted. In, in any case, was not at such a meoting. In the Departments, the chiefs of departments... vere talking. ((Pause)) Who at that tine, in KRUGLOV's tine, who anong the Secretaries of TsK KPSS ((CC CPSU)) was appointed Deputy to KRUGLOY: Of the Secrotaries of the Tsi. KPSsS. _
104-10227-10011 tbe sieee eee, AL a A. -( (Pause) ) This. 1s bad... _ Secretary in tho TsK...- And Doputy to KRUGLOV? _And. was Deputy Minister for Internal Affairs. © You. I do not know, [ do not know, I do not remember, ((Long pause)) Well, who of the Scerctartes of the Tak NPS, being at the sane time a Secretary of the TsK KPSS, offleinlly was announced to he Deputy of the Ministry of Internal Affatre under KRUGLOV? . I do not renember, I do not know, I do not remember. “I -tell you“that I do not renentior, unless you prompt me. Thoy. gorrot™ to tell you about this. ((Pause)) I think I do not ‘have to prompt. you. can ate oF | fy S Neo was a bic man... who at the game timo held the position of a You have ‘mado ‘some kind of big mistake. This is not any mistake. Very well; I do not know this; tell me, I do aot intend to do that. No, no; I absolutely do not know about this matter. Then, later MIRUSHCHEV banished this man to the Far East, and he wori:ed there in Party work,
104-10227-10011 Ope MOE thee Le ea dame ea ete DB. ‘XY do not know; do you. havo tho First Directorato in mindy... ‘Where in Building #2; {f you sorhied there, then you know wie ha in. ((Lon: pauge)) Well, wio clse was deputy to KRGGLOV. |. I do not remenhber, . ((Pause)) Vell, this is very interestins -- it was a lon interval of time == until they orpanized the KGn. ee Hl SENOV was not the only Deputy. . ‘No. Woll, Whore I toll you that I do not remember, - “Voll. ((Pause)) Where was the.Intelligence Dircctorate.of the MVD located at that. tine ce PN * Well; 42 you call it the First Directorate, let it be-the First. = | = It was in Building #2... at the Exhivition... thore was a parton | Kisol'nyy; and, besides that, -in tho Comittee of. Information. ad I do not now, I do not know. ((Pause)) Then you do not now where the First Chicf Directorate was situated in Puilding #27 V Well, in the new building; where else — But where: 18 4 LEP atte ly ace GET Le. -m ca ween Ofeta er. Mees utehiecancd .
104-10227-10011 | oO ‘Be. Well, on various floors, Chey are on various floors: well, the First Department was on the Btrehth floor -.- I know sere, with wioa I had contact; and the rest, I do not know, 2A , A, ‘What -= after 10 years, you do not know where it was? B. We knew it was in the new building, Building #2, in the new building, A. Dut where .- "at the Exhibition’:. | B, I never was at the Exhibition; I do ‘hot know the building. A, Well, where, in the Ky ~ 7 - a | , ; . . : BL I do not know; I wes not thore,' éither, : A.- And where was the KI located: > ae bases _ B..-I do not know, I do not know; I was not there, | a j “ Pe , F i A. And what did they do on Kisel'nyy Street: . | B. A part of the Directorate was thore; employees were there, 4 : A. Were you ever on Kisel ‘nyy Street: . a : B. Yes. i Loos A. What was housed there, besides this. ~ i B. Housed there... later... was the Higher School... a part of the Seventh Directorate,,.. A, So -- what else. 4 B. That is all. - cane
104-10227-10011 A. What kind of a school was 1t.<. I ‘Well, what kind ((of a school)): ce oes '. ((Pause)) a higher school. Was the Higher School and part of the Seventh Directorate Located on Kisel'nyy Street. Well, you know that they were scattered; and the School had its’ own building, at the beginning of Leningradskaya Hiphway beyond the Pelorusskiy Railway Station, Well, what was beyond the Pelorussk ly liailway Station. Just across the bridge. the Delorusskty. Railway Station. the bridge... on the left ea, there was the School. I never was there, but I- know -there was a ‘school... of the KGE.. - Well, what kind of a higner school: , ® od I do not-know; I did-not study there; I do not know. So ~~ on Kisel' nyy Sescot, there was a higher school. and a part of” ‘the Seventh Directorate, . mat @tse: A part of the First Directorate, Part of the First Directorate. TES What else.
104-10227-10011 4, Did you not apeak with the. Cuder of Catellftpence ‘—. No, nv one called me, ilere, LT, being: tn Mos scow, I round out that GEARENEY, the Deputy, “already had hecome the Chief ir place of Vice Adntral VORONTSOV who ‘was the Chief of the GRU, A. low, explain. to me how you sot off tho Korisonol rolls tn Sovetskaya Gavan‘ and how and when you got on the Komsomol rolls in the Baltic arca, . oo _B. 1 did not got ort: tho rolis- in Bovotsknya Gavan’ ‘Beennwe I did not know that I would not return. A, What happened them Be And when I camo to Soveta!: =~. Primorsk Ly Sovotsk == the MRP, thoro was a Primary Komsomol organization, and thoy took mo on, Ene rools; I told then I. was on ‘the rolls in Sovotskayn . .Gavan'., “A, “Wat did they: doy) > >> ‘How did they know that you were on the rolls th Sovetskaya Gavan’: B. Well, there ig an order putting me on the roster in the up of the - Fourth Navy Fleet, of Intelligence of iE Fourth: Navy Fleot. ‘This is an official order. ' It is not as though ((B! 8 surnane)) came and thought this up. A. Well, we must conclude that you do not know about this. ((Pause)) Most Likely you were not a very rood Komsonol member; many times you did not pay your .i<omsomol dues. Mere were always big lapses of time. 4 te It took you three months to ret into the KGB, and you were on leave. for a long timo, Then you went to the Baltic area....
104-10227-10011 Wolk, did “GRU Personnel of tho Ministry of the Navy, Re ane ask youll. no ane ask vou for sone docuriont, ft is not cneounh Just to ientton it, I showed the officer's identifteation -- that there eas a Btinp in it, Well, to whom, when, where. - ; I do not rezester, I do not renenber, I do not renenber , ; | ((Pause)) How long did it take to decide to send you to the Baltic area. ° ” a Whore and how ((was it dec tded) ) In July. . Co - ' Po, a With whom did you speak’ With KALOSHIN, - With whom else. : There were other employees, but I do not remember their nanes. KALOSHIN was the one who made the decision. oe “Well, KALOSHIN is a big man; of course, he does not have to be concerned with all these matters. Well, he apparently gave this case to someone, but I spoke to him; he spote with ne. And no one else. Some officers fron the Personnel Division talked to me when I went there; I do not reienber their hanes; IT telephoned hin, | _ Sion
104-10227-10011 > v] iodo rot know more. Well. what would the Seventh Directorata ue cain there a . Aad cven now a part of tae Seventh Direc torate {is there, Waat fron the Seventh Ptrectorate ts there The Tenth Depar trent ‘ “What. did ft do. - The Tenth Department has various tasks. ((The reel tape ended nt this point.)) _ ae ((End of keel #10)) -