HW 53716 _SHERET ad -13- @ Four hundred? Just a minute; here is an interesting thing; just a minute. Let us assume that all of the workers in the UPDK in the entire building amount to 200 --— 150-200. Yes? But not all of the workers -- the Soviet citizens who work in all of the embassies -= are housed in the UPDK. They work at the embassies as chauffeurs, gardeners, charwomen, cooks. But they are UPDK workers. Well, I am asking how many in all, including.... Oh, with these. This I do not know. Well, how many? Two thousand, three throusand? I do not know. Well, if we consider that there are 70 embassies in Moscow...? 70 embassies? Well.... Well, how many will the UPDK have, approximately? Well, the American Embassy, the largest Embassy, has a hundred or hundred twenty Soviet citizens working there. The rest of the embassies are small, and they have few people. I would say that there are approximately 1,000 people working. Well, I proceed from the following -- if you worked there for such a long time in the Second Chief Directorate, and you had close contact on the basis of information from the Seventh Directorate and, furthermore, DoclId: 327404701 Page 16
HW 53716 that the surveillance of the Second Chief Directorate now is in the Seventh Directorate -- I take it that you had frequent contact with both these and those -= with the people of the Seventh Directorate and the Directorate for the Affairs of the Diplomatic Corps =~ because without them you could not take a step. Right, right. Therefore, my question is == and I think there is a basis for me to aks -«— well, the total staff of the UPDK, the numerical complement. I am not assing for the exact number; one can make an estimate. My estimate is 1,000 employees, Soviet citizens working in the embassies approximately. Approximately a thousand? Soviet citizens who are working in the embassies. Does this also include all of those on the staff of the UPDK in the directorate, and those which.... No, I am taking into account those who are ((on staff)) in the direc- torate. / There are 150 people on the staff and 1,000 in the embassies. A thousand in the embassies.. Well, we will say there are approximately 1,200. Yes, yes, approximately. Approximately . Well, we will drop this question for the time being. Well, this figure could be questioned =- it is not exact, ET DoclId: 327404701 Page i?
SECKET 15 - A. Well, I do not ask you to give me or know the exact number. B. It is not possible. A. We will return to the initial theme of our conversation -~ about the Komsomol . As you said, you were in the Komsomol from 1943 until 1954; you entered, and somewhere in 1954.... B. I Beft the Komsomol for reason of age. A. For reason of age. And, for some time, you were the Secretary of the Komsomol organization. What was the Komsomol organization called? What was it called? B. Komsomol Organization No. 2. A. Komsomol Organization.... B. Well, of Collective No. 2. A. Collective No. 2. Well, what did you have a Committee? B. We had no Committee; it was a small organization. A. Well, what was it called? B. Komsomol organization, A. And nothing.... B. There was only a Secretary, a small bureau of 3 people. A. We will return to 1952, with regard to the Komsomol. SEG HW 532716 DBoclId: 32404701 Page 13
HW 53716 You arrived in Moscow as you say, from the Baltic area in December 1952; and then you began working in the KGB -- in the MVD, as it then was called -=— in March 1953. Where were you enrolled in the Komsomol at that time? Up to March? During the time that you left the Baltic area and when you began working..... Where? I continued to be enrolled in the Baltic area. At Sovetsk. And when you left there fora period of time you were not taken off the list? No, of course not. Where did you pay your dues? I was not paying dues anywhere. I paid the dues for the several months I did not pay as soon as I started working. I paid for January, February, for March. And where did you pay for December. Well, I left Sovetsk in December. When did you leave in December? At the end of December. Around New Year's. At the very end of December. DoclId: 327404701 Page 19
HW 53716 e ane e -17 - When are membership dues usually paid? Well, when you get paid -—-around the 22nd or 23rd of the month. Then for December you paid there. I paid. And when you got into the KGB? Then you paid at one time? I paid for January, February and March, When you came into the KGB == tell me, briefly, the whole procedure of your Komsomol business. When did you first visit the Komsomol Committee in the KGB to be re- enrolled? I do not remember. I am afraid to say, I am afraid to say. Of course, it was about the time I began working. I asked about the Komsomol organization. . I spoke with the Secretary of the Komsomol organization and introduced myself. What Secretary? In the Second Directorate, but I do not remember who he was. You replaced him in this position? Yes, yes. Well, who was the Secretary? After all, you took his place and I think you should remember his name. DoclId: 327404701 Page 270
HW 53716 SECRET ~ 18 = I do not remember, I do not remember. He must have continued working in the Second Chief Directorate. Yes, he entered the Party; he was accepted as a candidate Party member, but who? One of the fellows. Very well, you met him.... I remember who took over from me, but I do not remember from whom I took over. Very well, you came to see him, and you were accepted into the KGB. By the way, when you spoke with SHUBNYAKOV, did he speak with 'you about belonging to the Party? I do not remember. Of course, he must have asked. Of course, he asked. Figure out the age at which you were when you came to Mosow and began to work in the KGB. Twenty-five. \ Can you be a bit more precise? I had passed my twenty-fifth birthday at the end of 1952. In 1952. In October, October 30. Then here == November, December, January, February, and the beginning of March == I was 44 months past my twenty-fifth birthday. DoclId:327404701 Page 271
HW 53716 SEC e -~ 19 - e You told me earlier, that, in the Komsomol, members are enrolled until they are 27 years old. Until they are 27. From what date, were members allowed to remain members until they were 277 This is indicated in the Regulations; I do not know from what time. It is indicated in the Regulations, that one can remain a Komsomol mmber until 27 years of age. What Regulations establish this? The Komsomol Regulations. Of what year’? I do not remember. It is established in the Komsomol Regulations. Well, I think that if you were a Secretary of a Komsomol organization, you should remember accurately whether it was the Regulations of 1953 or 1954 —— I will not insist on the year it changed -- Komsomol members could remain in until they were 26. 27. The Regulations now state that you can remain until you are 27, but, at that time.... No, no, no; that cannot be. When the question about my Komsomol reprimand arose == whether to remove it -= when they removed me as a Komsomol Secretary... in 1954, I was not yet 27. Then, in October, or in the beginning of October -=| that is, when I DoclId: 32404701 Page 2?
HW 53716 reached 27 -- after that, I was to leave the Komsomol because of age. Of course, I cannot accept what you are explaining to me now. It does not fit. Because the new Regulations... it is true that Komsomol members may remain as Komsomol members until they are 27.... That is the way it was in1954,... ...But in 1953, 1954, ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) Until the age of 26.... It was the same way in 1954 -- 27 years of age. I am not going to bring you the Regulations and show them to you. You do not have to. Because, otherwise, I would not have been able to get out of that difficult situation. Furthermore, you said that you got out of the Komsomol because of age and == correction with the punishment in 1954; you got out at the end of the year. So. There is no reason to talk about the age, 27; It already was 26 ((in the Regulations) ) 27. In October of 1954, I was 27 years old. Well, there are members who remain after they are 27. € Docld: 32404701 Page 23
HW 532716 SECRET @ @ -~ 2] = You can remain for several months. I reached the age in October, and I got out in December. (XG) It is not half a year, if you please. After your talk with the Secretary of the Komsomol organization -— whose name you do not remember -- of course, it is difficult for me to believe that you took up the duties of Secretary of the Komsomol organization and became the Secretary for the Second Chief Directorate, and you cannot remember who he was. I do not remember. I presume that, if they elected you Secretary of the organization, that you were an active Komsomol member. Apparently, you must have had good qualifications, since you had worked there for a short time; and I think you should know from whom you took over. Let us talk logically. Now, you see, you yourself worked in KGB == but, even if not in the KGB, but just in the Soviet Union ~-- you suggest logically discussing this, but you tell me such a strange thing. | You know how things are run. This is not ((a big)) committee. What kind of files are there? You keep a list of the members -- these 20 poor souls -- there are no enroliment documents. | When they pay the dues, you put down their names and Komsomol card numbers. Then you take this list and the money to the Komsomol organization. What kind of files are there? None at all. A work plan, for example, for a month -- what measures are taken, what meetings and discussions are held on such and such a theme. That is all. DoclId:327404701 Page 274
HW 532716 B. -~ 22 . One minute. What files are there? No matter what files there might have been =-- even if you had only a file box or two sheets of paper, you nevertheless became the Secretary. of a Komsomol organization. Right, right. Furthermore, before you can become the Secretary for the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate, before they give you complete authority, what precedes this? | This is not a powerful organization. I told you it consists of secretaries and typists. There were in all two, three - four operational members, and the rest were technical support personnel. And you were the Secretary of the Komsomol organization, so?. Yes, It is not just that a man takes a file box containing the files and that is all -=j what precedes this, so that you are, and have the authority, of a Secretary of a Komsomol organization? ((Pause)) You are right about what you have in mind; but the organiza- tion of a huge plant or of a large collective.... Let us not talk about a plant or another big organization; we are talking now about the Second Chief Directorate, the Komsomol organiza- tion of the KGB. I am telling you the way it was. DoclId:32404701 Page 25
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404701 Page 276 SECR -~ 23 = Well, I want to know how you became the Secretary of a Komsomol organization. You said that you took over the files. What preceded this event and your becoming a real Secretary of a Komsomol organization? To become a real one, I do not know, but I know how I became one. The way you put it -- you simply took over the files, and that was all. If you were the Secretary of a Komsomol organization, you must know. This is even printed in the Regulations -= what the procedure is. First of all, there was a report and elections meeting; the old | Secretary delivered the report; then a representative of the KGB Komsomol Committee attended the meeting; when the report had been delivered, it was pronounced that the work had been satisfactory. Just a.minute; why must I ask you ten times before you begin answering me? Now, really, are such as meetings so important? I want to find out how you became a Secretary. If you please, if you please... the Secretary delivered the report; for example, that eight meetings were held during the tenure. There was an evaluation of the work. Then, the KGB Komsomol Committee representative speaks ~-= they already had decided that there would be a proposal by the Komsomol Committee to put Comrade ((B's surname)) up as a candidate for Secretary. And that is all. I also do not remember.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404701 Page 27 Well, what do you think? It is quite difficult for me to believe that the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate at that time does not remember from whom he took over and likewise does not know the name of the man who worked in the KGB Komsomol Committee. Well, I do not remember who was there. I knew several people who had contact with the Second Chief Directorate. Marat SOKOLOV and KALININ, Anatoliy. Who was there? Perhaps one of them or someone else; I do not remember. Well, if it was Marat, then it was Marat. I do not remember. It was these two men who maintained contact with the Second Directorate, ' both of them. Well, what, after the results of the election meeting? You were elected; what then? We then elected a bureau of three people for our Komsomol organization. What else? Who were the member's of the bureau? I do not remember; a girl, the typist, a secretary -- I do not remember. What —— three, with you, or were there four? Three, with me, because this was a very small Komsomol organization. What else? The meeting ended after this. On the following day, we got together, made a tentative work plan —-.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404701 Page 276 who would do what work. Well, how were you personally elected Secretary? Well, right there at the Komsomol meeting; you see, at that time... Why am I telling you about a large Komsomol organization? The large organizations elect a bureau; then the bureau gets together andselects a Secretary. But this was a small organization -«- 12-15 persons. You said that there was a bureau composed of three people. Well, in all; with me included. Along with you. Well, did they elect a bureau, or did they elect you alone? They elected three of us, but they immediately elected me Secretary. You understand -=| this was an unusual method, because this was a small Komsomol organization. I have said that this is not the way it really happens in large Komsomol organizations, or in the Party organizations, where first a bureau is elected, and then the bureau on the following day gets together to select and elect a Secretary. Well, as a former Secretary, tell me -- on the basis of the Regulations, how are the elections carried out in a Komsomol organizations consisting of 15 people. You said there were approximately 15 people; how are the elections carried out? Who is elected, and how is he elected? ((Pause)) I do not remember; who, how, how the elections are held --= I do not remember anything. Is it logical or not, as a Secretary who knows the procedures well --
B, HW 532716 DBocld:32404701 Page 29 SEC e 1. © because he was elected -- at least to know the Regulations? ((Pause)) Is it so difficult? I do not remember, I do not remember. Well, you know it is very easy to say that you do not remember. Well, I really do not remember. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) A person who was elected Secretary must know how he was elected. They elected me at a meeting. They elected two other members . from our Party ... Komsomol organization. Well, who were they? I do not remember; I think they were two girls, and both were typists. You do not remember the names? How were the elections held? How actually were the three of you elected? No; I lied to you -= one was a typist and the second one was a secretary of the German Department <= Nina... right. Well, that is not important; what is her surname? Nina, Nina, Nina... I do not remember. By the way, you mentioned the German Department; in 1953, who was the Chief of the German Department of the Second Chief Directorate? I do not remember now; I wrote it down,
HW 53716 SEC e - 27 - e I know that you wrote it down. ((Thinking aloud)) First Department, then GORBATENKO; the Second == KONDRASHIN; the third... I do not remember. And you are sure that in 1953 in the Second Chief Directorate, there was a German Department, that a secretary of the German Department was elected to the bureau? ((Pause)) Yes. Well, it was not responsible for embassy work, but for Germans who left in the territory... well, it was the German Department, for immigrant organizations, and likewise on a level with PERETUGOV's department, which handled the Sixth... the Third -- Germans -= but how else? I will ask you again if you are sure that there was a German Department. Yes, the German Department ((speaks with uncertainty)) was there. Think about it. (XG) I do not remember. I know that there was a German Department. I am asking if there was a German Department in 1953, and if you are sure of this. I do not remember; I do not remember. . Well, if you do not remember, then probably you do not remember very well that the person who was elected a member of the Komsomol organi-g- zation bureau was not from the German Department. Well, she was from the Third Department; she was there and is now a secretary in the Third Department. “SECRET. DoclId: 327404701 Page 30
HW 532716 DoclId:32404701 Page 31 SE T @ _ 98 @ Perhaps she is working there, but if you.... And she was working there when I was in the Komsomol organization; she was a Komsomol member. If you do not remember whether there was or was not a German Department, how could a person from the German Department have been elected? The German Department, the German Department. Well, I will ask again -—- are you sure there was 2 German Department? ( (Pause) ) Iam not absolutely sure of anything; but I know it was the German Department from which this Nina was a member of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate, and she was elected to the bureau. I am asking for the third time whether or not you are sure, whether you know exactly or do not know, was there a German Department in 1953 or not? There was a German Department in 1953; there was. If there was a German Department in 1953, where were you at the time? Because there was no German Department. I was in the First Department. How can you say there was a German Department when there was no such Department in the Second Chief Directorate in 1953? How can you say that? ((Pause)) To my thinking, there was. You see, I am not insisting that you make up something. I am simply asking whether there was a department or not, whether you
eo @ -~ 29 . know or you do not know. B. To my thinking, there was a German Department, because Nina was a secretary of the German Department.... A. A man who worked there in 1953, 1954, and who worked there until 1964, and who was a Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate probably will know exactly whether there was a German Department or not, and he will not say “to my thinking" or "probably". He will only answer precisely whether there was or was not one there. B. Why do I tell it to you this way == "to my thinking''there was" -= and do not tell you for sure? | Because I do not remember exactly the name of the Chief of the Depart- ment. A. You cannot remember it because there was no such Department. B. ((Pause)) To my thinking there was. I do not remember. I will think, I will think (XG) A. ((Pause)) Well, we will return to the same question --— howvere the members of the bureau elected? B. I do not remember; I do not remember this. A. Am I right in concluding that you were not a Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate? B. (#An incorrect conclusion? ) A. If the conclusion is not right, you were an active Komsomol member, you were elected Secretary.... HW 53216 DBoclId:32404701 Page 32
HW 53716 —SECRET ad -30- ® ((X¥G; A and B speak at the same time) ) ..-Lou see what the matter was? I do not remember, You can draw that conclusion on the basis of that. I do not remember; I do not remember. Very well, let us assume that the bureau was elected -= three people; you and two girls. Let us assume that. What else? ((Pause)) What else? I already have mentioned twice in the form of a leading question -- at what time does a person become a Secretary in a Komsomol organization? At what time? Well, the bureau is elected.... In large organizations... We are talking about the organization of the Second Chief Directorate, where there were approximately 15 Komsomol members, Do not tell me about big organizations, because I know about them very well == about both the large ones and the small ones. I am talking only about the one in which you were. I answered you. Because I do not want to talk about large ones, etc., because in doing so, we will get to the raykom and the Komsomol CC. When we have time, we will talk about this. _ Right now, I want to know about the Second Chief Directorate, in which you were a Secretary, where there were approximately 15 people, where a bureau of three people was elected, although you do not remember the names of two. | What else? How does an elected Secretary become a Secretary? What else follows? DoclId: 327404701 Page 353