178-10004-10072 AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE : DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : DOCUMENT TYPE: CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : v9.1 HY 50955 Docld: 32212764 Page 1 JFK Assassination System Date: Identification Form Agency Information WILDEROTTE 178- 10604-10072 TESTIMONY SERIES TESTIMONY (3) Document Information ROCK DEPOSITION OF RICHARD MC GARRAH HELMS, APRIL 23, 1975, 2 OF 2 04/23/1975 34 ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS CIA CLANDESTINE OPERTIONS HARVEY, WILLIAM HELMS, RICHARD JOHNSON, LYNDON OPERATION MONGOOSE ORGANIZED CRIME ° ASSASSINATION, DIEM ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES AMLASH PFIAB DEPOSITION Top Secret Consulted Withhold 08/05/1993 Some pages are missing. Not as complete as 1781000210092.
HY 50955 WASHINGTON, D.C. 410 First Street. §.£., 20003 Phone (202) 544-6000 Docld: 32117764 Page 2? Deposition Cf: 178-10004-10072 DT wey , Aatne sy 2 of 2 “RICHARD McGARRAH HELMS _ Wednesday, April 23,°1975 (Langley, Virginia a ete ee Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library “ FAIRFAX, VIRGIN 4055 Chain Bridge Rd., 7 Phone (703) 273-2 400
f 24 | , i . i 25 | - Q Ambassador Helms, were you ever aware during your work i . | i i | q Hat alin minis Photocopy from | : i Sic icy | ; 7 P = ae vais J Gerald Ford Library | HW 50955 Docld: 327112764 Page 3
j tot BRIE bal tN. eoetatths te nw BR Re ree ack Rh BES WAS awonrebt ene of sa hel fae Vitam Wa ees ea pri atin ae naan HY 50955 -with the Agency of the development or discussions of any plans concerning the possible assassination of Patrice Lumumba? ; A I don't recall anything about any plans to assassinate Patrice Lumumba I know that Lumumba was a controversial figure at_the time. I know whatever year this was -~ was in the Eisenhower or the Kennedy.era that Lumumba was riding high. | _ @ I believe that the era would have been in the era of 1959, ‘60. I believe he was killed in early '6l. A I remember later hearing all kinds of allegations about.Lumumba and how he had been killed and why he had been killed. I remember also the fact that the -- it was abundantly clear that the Agency had had nothing to do with his demise but whether there was a plot on the Agency at sometime or another to. try to bring about his demise I was not familiar with it. I want to say here I will obviously do the very best f can with my recollection but when you consider how: much has bee nares Ooh een in the newspapers about a number of things in the last period o years it is pretty hard to stick in time when you first heard about something. “ALL Iam trying to convey here is I was not as far as I Know privy to any ongoing plan to. get rid of Patrice Lumumba. by assassination. 7 a Q. Now, the dictator of the Dominican Republic, Mr. Trujillo, was killed on or about May 30, "61. Prior to that time were you aware of the fact that there had been a request ere ent ene tan ananarnaen ey 1 ES Photocopy from : © so = “= ag Gerald Ford Library Docld: 3271127764 Page 4
1? 18 19 ra Madé of the Ayency to deliver guns to dissidents in the Dominican Republic?. vee eee A I don't believe I was familiar with it at the time although I can! t say. I certainly heard about the gun business later because I had occasion to go back when President Johnson asked. me about . this. episode at one time to look into ‘the records to find out about Trujillo. I could find - no evidence that the Agency had been responsible for his demise but I did fina evidence at the time that there was an opposition group in the United States Government was anxious to have the Agency support and assist and I think I may very well have Known about the opposition group at the time. -. = I’ have no recollection any longer that I was privy to the sending of any guns fo: to the Dominican Republic and if I was, I don't recall they were ever identified as being designed. to kill Mr. Trujillo. I know there Was a desire on the part of i whatever Administration was in power then, they didn't like Mr. | Trujillo: - They like Mr. Duvalier and certain others but I was aware of no attempts to bring about his death through agency assets.  ~ a re - me think - since you: have raised: this question of: an. assassix.| nation 1 would like to say something as a generality here. Dearly in the game when Colonel | Galloway, was my boss in what was then known as the Office of Special Operations, I don’t even recall any more in | What connection this came up but he sa Phot from TO! p SE S Cs val aT Gerald Ford Library | BW 50955 Docld: 327112764 Page 5
to me one day that the Agency should certainly have the capability to get rid of foreigners when required and that this had to be done secretly and you should never ask your boss for permission to do these things, and so forth. I remember:at the timearguing with him about this and saying that I though that there was no, possibility whatever that the United States Govern ment could develop a capacity to kill people because you. could never keep it a secret. Sooner or later, maybe after five year ten years, Lord knows what, someone would come in or write some Congressman and say the Agency was responsible for killing so and so and aside from the morlity of it I felt it was impracti-~ cal for the US Government to do something like that at this tim I felt that way all the time I was Director. I never: in my lift towards killing, murder, assassination of anybody 6£ whom I am aware, and so I can only tell you that as the years have «gone -by, as I say, quite aside from moral asepets of this thing, the improbabilityof ever being able to do anything Like that as an American Government’ agency has become less and less viable. - In fact, I have often said to associates that there are three things that the American people would never stand for. One-is asSassination;,. two is rapé, and.thrée is dealing in. | arugs. So that I didn't want anybody in the Agency thinking that any of those things were going to be satisfactory -to me.- Q - Mr. Manfredi asked you about some notes in which there || was the mention of three handwritten names by you. One was . aN Aint gel inte: Photocopy from PAD SS en eat Gerald Ford Library 50955 Docld:32112764 Page 6 |
‘TC > SEeCRe?r a 154 i || Castro, one was nrujillo, and do you remember what the third | 2 was? ee oe 4 - OL ‘And I think you have already testified about that. i! , vt 5 A, e+ EF just did, because President Johnson had raised these| — : re casés with meland thought that since he had done it he ‘might 7 |i have raised them with-President Nixon and .early in his Admini- 8 stration I wanted to get him straightened out on this. : 9 You know,. to. this day I am not persuaded that President i 19 | Nixon doesn't still believe that the Agency didn't have somethin 11 to do with the demise of President piem of Vietnam and there is : ' 402 ‘absolutely n6é evidence of this in the Agency records and the 13 whole thing has been, I mean, rather ~~ what is the word I want 14 | 77 heated by the fact that President Johnson used to go around 15 |) Saying that the reason President Kennedy was assassinated was 16 that he had assassinated President piem-and this was just 1 justice. He. certainly used to say that in the early days of his! i 18 Presidency and where he got this idea from I don't know. x z| 19 don't know how many of you had the privilege of trying to argue i ay:| with Presidents about, things like that but you tend to be a> i Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Ler ree sy eerremnuermmrereetti ee nee + eats HW 50955 Docld:3271127764 Page 7?
TOP SECRET a 161 Q Do you -- A Whose idea was this? Do you have the information? A LT recall somebody discussing with me one day an’ even crazier idea which had to do with ‘some kind of a thing ‘that might be ‘planted on the Beach where Castro walked in the morning and it would blow up when he put his foot on it, or) something. - There were more nutty ideas. It reminded me of the time of OSs “when” ‘somebody wanted te get Propaganda into Germany and. they discovered there was a herd of cows that grazed in Germany and were milked in France, so they devised some suppositories into which there were put a lot of propaganda leaflets and those were put in the cows on the theory they were S being 1 left on the German side of the border when the cows were grazing and nobody would be the wiser. So to Say there. are. nutty ideas cooked up p in organizations like this is to tell the ‘truth, “Is there any evidence, may I ask, Mr.Belin, is there any evidence in the record that any Director authorized What r can only refer, to. by. the dictionary definition .of “an assassination of a foreign leader? — Q . Well, there is. evidence in the record, Ambassador Helms, that there were plans made to try and assassinate Premier Castro of Cuba, that there were several eries of plans, and that the plans at at least one or two of the ae ere ne rr a eee, Photocopy from Gera i HW 50955 Docld:32112764 Page 8 Id Ford Library SENN Me mp tiraesAnerentng wee rire rere.
L62 stages’ included the delivery of poison pills developed in the Agency to be placed in food or drink -- A They were delivered in Cuba? “.  Q -- of Castro, and that the pills were delivered to Mr. Roselli, ‘who in. turn delivered them to other people, “and. that the pills eventually” found their way to Cuba. A How ‘do we know that? Q There are Agency reports that they were. We do not have any first-hand information that they were, but there are ~-- there are memoranda which indicates that they were through, among others, disaffected Cubans. A Who returned to the United States and testified to the fact that they had received the pills: or Something? Q. Who h have not testified to anything. A I see. Q... that is one -——--. A “Who authorized this particular operation? ‘9 This is one of the areas that we are trying to ascertain and I suppose my first question along this line such» a plan. a oe oe A Not that I recall. Q And you indicate that you never knew of such a Plan? tocopy from A I don't recall any plan. craid Ford Library ee HY 50955 Docld:371127764 Page 9 Was whether (or not you “had any knowledge of the existence of
163 Q De you ever recall after you succeeded Richard Bisse} that you were approached concerning whether or not you should advise John McCone of the existence of such plans-or operations? — - an 7 A’ I was approached to do what? -Q As to whether or not Mr. McConé should be briefed. about the existence of such a plan or plans? A. This .is after the fact? Or before the fact? Or in the process? .Q During the fact. A You mean I had replaced Bissell and somebody in the Agency came to me and said should we tell Mr.McCone about a Previously authorized plan? Do. you recall that at all?’ Q Yes. A I don't. recall it. r am sorry. Q Do you recall ever discussing this with William Harvey? | | A I don't know, I discussed hundreds of things with Harvey when he was working on the Cuban problem. I don't recall this. I recall a great deal to do with Harvey about Rosella but I.don't recall any conversation ‘with: Harvey about talking to Mr. McCone about Roselli because Harvey- when. he became in charge of. the Cuban business, and so forth, and about and among them was the ongoing contact with Roselli tnat whole Cuban operation, picked up various things around I TPS A ee photocopy trom | Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 3271127764 Page 10 ,
ny. GI LO Ll 12. L3 14 15 16 17 18 L9 20 ‘21 23 24, 25 Sr eet Benn arent en ann tna tne neta were eee Meee ne 22 -_of the Chicago newspapers some years ago about this whole | “Roselli busineSs, that I asked for the records’ and looked at QO And who told you this? . oe A = don't recall. It may have been Houston,’ may have ‘been. Edwards at the time. I don't remember. But I remember I: reviewud it when there was a story in the Chicago -~ cnc them at that “tiie. ~ 7 MR, BELIN: I am going to mark an exhibit, if Ir. can. You can call this, if you would Helms' Exhibit 1. : (The document referred to was marked for identification, Helms’ Exhibit an oo se No. 1.) "BY MR. BELIN: 7 | Q I hand you what the reporter has marked Helms No. Ll, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a. front-page story from the Chicago Sun Times under date of August 16, 1963, headlines "CIA Sought: Giancana Help for Cuba Spying.” . I want you to examine this and see if perhaps that is what you had reference to in reference to the Chicago stories. a A It could very easily be. It. looks just like what I recall came out at the time and t think’ somehow or other” ‘this name. Sandy Smith sticks in my mind as being the writer of the article in qeustion. So I have no reason to doubt. that this is the article we are talking about. re: pe) sS Be " es Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:3271127764 Page il " ; 4
‘DP SECRET 166 Q - Do you remember Stanley J. Grogan? A: Yes. -- an ~° OQ . « He was one of your assistants? A Stanley J. Grogan \ was in charge of the office nere “that. dealt with ‘the press. In other. words, he: was =< and ‘Gus Thermers,~ one of his predecessors. “His title was Assistant; to the Director but he simply handled press inquiries. , MR. BELIN: “Mark Helms’ No. 2. ots oe (The document referred to was marked for identification, Helms' Exhibit No. 2.) | BY MR. BELIN: | Qo hand you what has been marked Helms'.No. 2, _ which isa memorandum for the record with a typewritten signature of Stanley J, Grogan dated August 16,. 1963, referring toa telephone call the previous evening from Sandy | Smith of the Chicago Sun Times and ask if you ever Saw that | before? __ AL I don't know. There is no reason why I shouldn't 7] seen it, if it was directed to me. Is there no copy around . e- Lo. e a with my initials on it-as having seen it? a Q.-.2I have not searched all of the records concerning that. 7 A Usually I ‘initialed memoranda, or at least the: cover! sheets, or something, if they came to me. Photocopy from - Gerald Ford Library 50955 Docla:32112764 Page 12
lait ae By ks AEH Se At Pies Beare: oO pre sritsp hee. =) Ps if, Rr. met 15 fy 16 - 18 19 ARSC ATRL aR a rR es STE PY apatite: if Be 23 Peele Ra rer aes PCR Ee na no pb Pyke ne 4 tA raw) cn ep eeepc: 17. 20° 3 = Roselli was trying to, get into Cuba. Whether Iwas told that a | | | MR. BELLI: Mark Numbers 32 and 4. | ! ne - “(Phe documents referred to were mark a oe for identification, Helms’ Exhibit . Z Nos. 3 and 4.) () - BY MR. -BELIN:. | | 8 Handias you.what has’ been marked Helms. Exhibit No. 3, which | isa nemorandum which appears to be prepared by "YOu, also under date (OF August 16, 1963, E think that might am evereorrer ast Sete tency nara have. “your initials: on tt. And. there Ls a ~~ that is attached to what is marked as Helms! Exhibit No. 4, which is a memo- | et al. .. randum for the records dated 14 May 1962, pertaining to A. All-right. I have read these. -Q ': Bo, you have any refreshed recollection as to the background of those, Ambassador Helms? _ | | A. Well, I don't understand what you mean by a refreshed recollection. I mean, at the’ time I was told that ‘this was an assassination plot, for which $150, 000 was being involved in the activity at the ¢ time and when I had to go back into. the files. to. get this ‘thing, you will see there tha rt had to call Colonel Edwards to find out» if there was any records af this, ‘and so forth, so it was “something in which I hadn't been involved and I obviously in “recent years have Photocopy from | cre) oe Ss Salat c mS = Gerald Ford Library . projected, and so forth, I don't recall any more but I wasn = 7 HY 50955 Docld: 32112764 Page 13
IOP SECRET 168 i} f heard a great deal about the SO-called Roselli assassination 2 | | but I have never heard anybody come and tell me that anybody 3 . i I must say to this very day nobody has showed me one ccintilla of. evidence that anything ever happened about it. except conversation. | @ The — OA i am not saying it didn't.r an. just Saying I have never seen any evidence. ; Q “The document Exhibit 4 was &@ memorandum for the record which pertained to an oral briefing in which Mr. Housto and Mr. Edwards of the Agency briefed Attorney General Robert sae en OA OT ETO ET HE anne | Kennedy. | A (Nods in affirmative.) oo | 5 | Q Had you ever seen this memorandum, for: ‘the record a before teday? g A Well, I am relatively certain I must have seen it the day I sent it to the Director, | | Q Had you seen it before then? cy | A I don't recall, i . “ Q : This memorandun for the record dated 14 May 1962, ic | - “s F refers to. @ plan which. was Started in the fall of 1960 and | . e which continued through April of 1961, Were you ever aware fi that subsequent to that time there was a second plan which Te ener rcs ee prrennety a, began in late 1961 or early 1962 in which William Harve ; Photocopy from d Ford Library HYW 50955 poets 32112764 ‘Page 14
HW 50955 Docld: 32112764 Page 15 and reported these contacts to the PBI. We just had that albatross around our necks for a very long time indeed. I don't. know when it finally ended but it seems to me it was some years. | Q = Do you remember any discussions with William Harvey ‘in’which. one of the things agreed upon: was ‘that the DCI, . Mr.McCone, would not be briefed about this? A. Na, I. don't recall any conversations with Harvey - or anybody else that Mr .McCone shouldn't be briefed. I don't say they didn't take place. I just don't have. any recollectiah of it. I can't think today why I. would have not wanted him briefed about something. Iomean, after all, one of the bases on which this Agency has always operated was that the Director was privy to know anything that went on. That was established early in the game. .Q Well, the Director ~- A. Is there some evidence that I-saia no, don't tell the Director, or he shouldn't be briefed? | Q Well, there. has Been testimony and there is docunen- tation that it.was agreed. between you and Mr. Harvéy not to brief the DCL. and I. wonder whether or not you have any  vecollection, No. 1, of whether or not that discussion was had and if you do have any such recollection, as to why that discussion might have been had. A No.I don't have any recollection of the discussion. TA Gary =y Photocopy from Geratd Ford Library
Q ~ Do you remember any briefing of the DCI at any time prior to “Helms'-Exhibit No. 3, the August 16,°1963? ----. 2--— Bet's see. Who would have been DCI then? John McCone? A oI don't know. I don't recall any other discussion ; \ with him on this subject. “-.Q And on ~~ A... I don't say it didn't take’ place. IT just don'te recall any. - i “-Q° - Now, on August 16,-1963, you delivered this memorand Helms" Exhibit No. 3, te Mr. McCone, referring to Sam Giancana and you said this is an outgrowth of this Chicago Sun- Times story of -also August 16, 1963, Helms" No. l, is that correct? | A -- Yes... Q. Do you remember whether.or ot you briefed him at that time on the fact that Mr. Harvey had taken over the operation and the operation might have continued beyond the first stage with Mr. Giancana? A- of have no recollection of this -- I have seen the memorandum. r have no doubt it is mine. I have no doubt it. went forward.1 remember: the episode but I don't remember the conversation with Mr. McCone at the time if there was one. Q If Mr. Edwards or Mr. Harvey were to say they had ee oe tater amr . Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library ~ HY 50955 Doclid: 32112764 Page 16
discussions with you that I previously questioned you about, is it your testimony that you have no recollection that would 3 ; enable you.to confirm it or deny it? 4 ; A . Yes. I just don't remember it. I mean, if they were | | ~to sit here and go back through the conversation, and so forth 6 cmaybe it would come ‘to mind but I don! t recall it now and I 7. ; see no point in trying to testify to something that I don't 8 remember... - 9 | , : . Q .- Did you have any knowledge of any other plans 10 , oo | __ of ne | . involved in an attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro? CA 2 AST was saying a moment ago, there were various 12 ideas floated by various people in the Government that it woul is be nice to get ‘rid of him, and: so forth, but I don't recall ‘it ; any. viable plans that were ever brought to light: to do this 15 and most of the -~ I say most -- almost the entire energies 16 _ of the DDP in thos days were attempting to get these operation i7 in Miami organized to see if there was some way to undo the 18 _government of Fidel Castro and it was a ‘major effort going 19 on and I am certain that there were discussions of the. 20 | possibilities of killing various people in connection with, yo al know, the options that one has. to carry: through a certain 22 1. injunction that you have been given, but I don't recall any” 25 ' plans that were approved or that were viable specifically 24 | directed at eliminating Castro, but that there were conver- } 25 sations about it, I haven't the slightest doubt. Ler SEC Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 327112764 Page i?
| | i | Q ~ Do you know who in the White House would have had | those conversations with his people in the Agency? 2 | _-.. A--- TE seems to me that back in those days there wes * | _ something called -- there was some committee that sat at the 5 jomeies that had to do with counter~insurgency as I & -yecall it. _ So | oe ? Q Would that be the Special operations group? 8 _A -—T don't know what the name is any more, different 9 _changes, but this group used to meet’ constantly on the 10 problems of Cuba and Latin America, ‘and so forth, and also ally “problems all around the world ~~ how are we going to organize (1e ourselves to fight this problem,that problem and the other | problem?. i: am sure there must be records of this thing. It used to meet all the time down at the Executive Office - Building. It had. met a lot on Asia, as I.recall it, and the 16 problem in Vietnam, and so forth, and I have no doubt there | 1? was-some organization that we used to report. to regularly abou 18 -Our progress in the Cuban thing. I forget: which committee 19 it was but.certainly,. the. Attorney General was. xigh® there 20 | all the time. Joe Califano was involved from the Army 21 Department in these matters. If don't know. There were otner 22 | “beople. Ihave forgotten now all the -- that, is a ‘Long tine | 25 ago. = oe ee ee | . 2a | Q Yes, Sir. Does the name Mongoose ring any bell? | | A Sure. Mongoose was sort of a general cover rubric | | Te) i) Giz ae. ™) et Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld:32117764 Page 18
for the whole effort to unseat the Castro government. Q -=-Is this the group that you are referring to? aro. A--— No. Mongoose would have been an internal agency ‘thing, I think. Now, maybe it was known downtown as -- or “some of these people. who were privy. to these things. in -other agencies that this was the rubric. I am not sure. It ‘may well be. -.Q --When they name a special group, special Group Augmente ‘or Special Operations Group -~- A That sounds familiar, yes. ‘That sounds familiar. - I am ashamed that you know more about these things these days than I do but honesly, I haven't even thought about them in all these years. Q.- Sir, do you have any recollection as to. who might have been the driving forces from the White House in efforts to do something about Castro? oo —---A- Well, the principal driving force was the Attorney General, Robert Kennedy . There. isn't any question about this. Involved in this was.a group of individuals who. were sort of hired and pulled together by Kennedy and Rusk and McNamara and McGeorge Bundy and all those people to get on with this job and as t sit here and start to think about this, Califano was one of them. It seems to me Lansdale, who had been successful in this kind of operation out in the Par: East was brought in for a while. There was a small office RES finn, 2 PRS 2am Gat Cue a ~ = © ~ ara ee Photocopy from 50955 DocId:32112764 Page 19 Gerald Ford Library
over in the Pentagon where people -~ as a matter of fact, NOW 2 . . | that I think about it, that Mongoose thing, wasn't that a o Lansdale. invention that was produced in the Pentagon and that 4 speciai operations, Gene Erskine headed -~ isn't that --. some . “of this. is coming back to me now. 6. - = - Q ” well, -as -it. comes back’ to you, - do you remember any a discussions involved connected ox indirectly connected or any @ way connected with that operation involving any attempts to 9 _assassinate Fidel Castro? | . 10, A... I don't recall specifically. Z would be surprised ii that it wasn't discussed at times but I don't pecall any (12 of these discussions particularly. is Q .- Bo you remember any discussions with Mr Harvey 14 concerning the furnishing of either arms Or poison pills 15 to Cuban exiles to have them try and carry out any assassina-~ ; 16} tion plan? | oo 7 _.-A....I don't have any question that we tried to Land 18 _them in Cuba, to bring down this government or to. kill 19. . anybody that they could lay their hands on. This was acon 20 the instructions and all this. were: “pretty rough and 21 pretty fulsome but when you come down to this question of a go to Point B and actually shoot or poison or do something to Castro, I don't recall anything of that kind and I to. this very day would like to see same evidence that this — = | 22 || specific project + was. approved which was designed for a man : | | | TO: > Seo epee ie Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld:32112764 Page 20
Gerald Ford Library : | actually was ever carried out. I think that there was a lot “ | of! lying on the-part of those Cubans and.a lot of backing and ° .forthing-with allegations of things that happened that never a did-happen and as I look back-on the whole period, with ° | all. the effort that was made in money and manpower, and S. so forth, devoted to try and unseat’ the Castro government, ? when one laoks back at it it was a pretty pitiful effort 8 “and I think a great deal of it was just, what shall I say, | 9 talking a good game. ~ | 19 Qe Now, .do you have any recollection of any briefing | 11 - of McCone about any Agency plans in which Harvey or Roselli | . Le or Sheffield Edwards may have been. involved other than | 18 Exhibit 42 --- ; : 14 A.. -I don't have any recollection of that, Mr. Belin. 15 I want to tell you that all I recall was that McCone was 16. constantly asking about how we were getting along with the | L? - Cuban operations and McCone was constantly being briefed about 18 what we were trying to do about these operations but. what ig was in all those briefings I have no recollection any more * 20 at all and no matter how I would work.on this t would never a1 be able to sort it all out. It was -- a lot of effort was 22. being made, all kinds of things to get boats and to train 25 | Cubans to man those boats and land en secret shores and all 24 | kinds of things. © : a 25 Q If -- Photocopy from | TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:321127764 Page 21
-. RK 77 May I ask 4 question at this juncvure? Since Castro “ is alive and well in Cuba, what is the problem about these ° --.-txying to verify ail this business about whethex these ; * attempts were made or not made? I mean, does it make aay | ° i difference any more? | - 6 . (g.--Well, there. are. two major areas of concern apart 7 from whether or not assassination should play any part in 6 American policy. One area concerns how the plans were 9 authorized, whether they were directed externally or whether: LO they grewup internally. il - + = the. second area concerns what I would call internal moni- je toring and control. If Mr.McCone: didn't know about it, other 1s than that briefing, that- poses a. problem 19) far as an Agency i4 operating under control. Tf you did not know about it until ! ‘1s the spring of 1962, and the information that I have gathered 161 indicates that you were. not privy to any. information about 17? | ‘this until the. spring of 1962, you.were ino a fairly impor tan’ 18 | position im the Agency. and yet were not’ aware of what could wnnnan _ have been a potentially disastrous operation,’ certainly. an operation ‘chat had all kinds of ramifications. for this | 21 |) © country when one considers the trigger of World War t involved 22 | an assassination attempt. . we a _ | 23 | ; And so, therefore, the scope of my ingvizy is not R4 necessarily to say it is this person's responsibility but in 29 ‘large part it is to determine how these plans got organized TO > § = co re eq ; photocopy from Gerald Ford Library pecerep eeerereennaat ena Saat 50955 Doecela:321127764 Page 22
and how they were kept under control, and I should tell you that it is my information that, although you did not have any "information about this prior to the spring of 1962, that in the spring of 1962 you were made privy to what I am: joing tc call Phase I which was the Giancana phase and also what I am going to. cali Phase II when William Harvey took over the operation, and that Mr.McCone, according to the records that I have seen, was not briefed until the August 16, 1963 memorandum, in part because of the fact Mr .MeCone had not been DCL. at the time the plans were undertaken, so the documents say that I have seen, and. that at the time of his 7 briefing in August of 1963, it was not an oral briefing but rather limited to a discussion of the. Giancana matter in. the: memorandum for the record addressed to Senator Kennedy, Exhibit’ 4.00 © 0 | Now, is there anything that.1 have said which disagrees with anything’ that is to the best of your recollection? .A. -T. have no reason to cavil with what you say. I don't have any contrary recollections but I don't remember. a lot of this either. So =~ _ | ~ Qo. -Now, do you remember Senator Kennedy coming over to the Agency om or about March 8, 1967, to review this pertained to his 1962 briefing? | ee A Senator Kennedy visited the Agency to do that?- . . memorandum for. the records that was Helms’ Exhibit 4 that | j Fee) i) § ae * a Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 327112764 Page 23
| Avs! GO ged ie ; L/¥ * Q __ Yes. He either visited the Agency or was hand- delivered a copy of that. Does that ring a bell with you | AS) 4. _ AD No; it doesn't, but I-don’t say it didn't happen. 5 “ET don't -- oe 6 — Q - You don't remember any conversations with Senator 7 Kennedy, about this? | 8 : A ‘Yo, t don't. . 9 . - ae Do you remember any conversations with Lawrence. . 10 gouston about a | | Ll — A Oh, yes, it was Houston who told me about the 12 | briefing in the first place. | 13 | Qo. That ‘is right, and when Houston told you about the | briefing and Houston was. present at the briefing, do you. 15 remember what he said ‘and’ what you said at all or don't you? 164 A No. L7 Q Do you. remember having - any conversations ‘with eithe 18 | Houston about Robert Kennedy wanting to see the memorandum 19 | again on -~ sometime in 1967? . 20 | A I don" t remember the thing at all put,- you know, ar | if D it 7 if the record says that this “happened I have no 20 | reason to argue with it. It would not have Loomed. “large in os | my life at that late dgte and if he wanted to look at it oa | I wouldn't have the slightest doubt I authorized somebody oI to show it to him. I don't recall his coming out here to | me ee Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:3271127764 Page 24
L . look at it. In other words, I don't recall him ever being 2 in my office here. i) Q Do you have any recollection of a project known 4 , as Project Amlash? 5 t ‘ . D ‘A - Amlash? By that name, not any more. 6 , - BO Q Did you ever? | - - A. Don't forget, Mr. Belin, that there were hundreds 8 ‘ of these things.. 9 ; | Q Do you have any recollection of any man by the 10 . os name of Rolando Cubela who was a Cuban who at one time had ame . been associated with Castro and then became. disaffected 12 , with him? A Let's see. Was he the fellow who eventually ended 14 ; : . ' . ‘ - ‘ . up in Paris or Madrid or something of this kind? Q Yes. At one time he: did- and then eventually 16 he ended uP in Cuba but he was met by agency people 1? A what was his particular cryptonyn? © oh 18 , | Q Well, among other things, some Black Leaf 40 had 7 19 | a og | 7 | | been developed to be delivered to him in a pen which had been 20 | ed | constructed to have a hypodermic needle with the object to 21 . ok inject the . Black Leaf 40 into Castro. And that was delivered B2 | to himlin Paris on November 22, 1963. ‘Da: you: remember? 25 | . ; A ..-L certainly remember Cubela:. t certainly remember 24. S . — a ‘the fact that he was, I think ~-- was he a defector from the 25 _ | a Cuban regime. e Photocopy from TD SEC cee Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 32112764 ‘Page 25
Q Yes. a A OF was he an agent whom we recruited who had not 2 yet defected or what? I certainly remember his name and I 4 | certainly remember the.use that was made of a fellow pared 5° Cubela. but iL don’ t recall exactly for: what. 6 | Q There was an effort to recruit him in place. 7 There were eventually some weapons delivered to hin. 8 | A Were there? I don't have any reason to doubt it. 9 The Black Leaf 40 and the hypodermic pen, and so forth, I 10 7 don't recall. | | il = Q Do you recall any Agency scheme which involved tryin 12 to put a spectacular seashell in an area -— 13 A | that is what I was talking about earlier. womebody 14 was talking once about trying to put a bomb on his beach ds where he walked, or something. Q or where he skin-dived. A Yes, that is the idea. t dao cenenber somebody . 18 discussing whether that would be aviable operation or not. 19 Q Do you ever remember anyone discussing giving 20 Castro a skin-diving suit which would include some tuberculosi a we ~J nn TEs gi GT Oy TS : Rees Photocopy from HW 50955 Docld:32112764 Page 26 Gerald Ford Library 21 bacteria in the breathing apparatus and also ‘possibly some 22 ‘fungus which would produce madura foot? =| A Madura foot? I remember, it seems to me, Fitegera'¢ 24 had a bright idea about the skin-diving suit. I don't 25 remember his ~~ I don't think I recall at all that there was we | |
| Ba Naw od «ree to SER Sh LO any plan to put anything in it. I have even forgotten what 2 the skin-diving suit was but I want to tell you these came 5 up every day, some hairbrained idea like this to do some- 4 thing about Cuba, but that’ these -actually were carriec. out, 5 \ Tr don't recall any’ instances of it: I don't recall any approv. 6 | given to actually set the seashell down or to send the thing 7 | or that any assets were developed to do these things. These 8 7 were a lot of things: that were discussed and I.am sure they 9 got down on paper since you have them but I don't recall they 10 were ever approved or ever carried out or any attempt to Ali carry them out. LC ; cos 12 Q Do you remember that eventually arms were delivered 13] to Mr <Cubela in Cuba? . 14 A I don't have any doubt about it. I think we 15 delivered arms all over the place in connection with Cuba. 16 I mean, let us not for a moment think that the. Kennedy 1? Administration wasn’t. dead serious about getting rid of the le Castro government. ‘ir mean, let's not -~ this was a 19 Government operation and if Dean Rusk. or anybody ,. McGeorge ‘20 4 Bundy or anybody. else ‘is sitting around, no, no, no, we £1 | didn't have this in mind at all; let's get. that all straighte 22 out. they wanted to get rid of Castro. Well, let me say 23 that t don't know that Dean Rusk wanted to get rid of him 24 put certainly President Kennedy wanted to get rid of hin. 25 a Q What do you mean by getting’ rid of him? = eS ENS Se SER OS Dee Photocopy from : Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docla: 32112764 Page 27 -
A They Wanted to unseat his government. They wanted to 2 —— bring his government down by whatever device could be found. Q -Which could: include assassination? 4 . A I don't know that the word assassination was ever used but certainly if you land armed men on a beach and the | effort is to recruit other armed men and to try to start a 9 ; ; ; whole arrangement whereby you, you know, you bring down a 8 , Co - government, sombeody is bound to get shot. But the thing 9 oe . 7 ° that I am doing my level best with you about and which even 10 - - . as I sit here thinking about it, is the focus on this il ; So , assassination business as though this was a, you know, some- 12) Lo. | thing that - was totally. part and parcel, of killing or invasions 13 or anything of that: kind. Put in that context, I just don! £ ‘14 remember that any of these operations were ever mounted 15 let alone had any prospects of success. That a lot of them were 16 . discussed, I haven' t the slightest doubt and I don’t know 17 | . what other people in the Government have testified te but 18 . 7 even that must have come up at various meetings as . to whether 19 - | a ; _ | this was a viable way to get rid of the man. | 20 a ot . . . ‘- There is a very great difference, it seems to me, ‘21 ” | when you actually approved it, were prepared to take tne | responsibility. 25 woe eo QO For the record,. there appear to have been no plans R4 | | undertaken to carry out either the seashell or the skin-divin vs 25 4 - . | suit but there do appear to be. plans to deliver the poison Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 3271127764 Page 78
j- A - ALL . ot “Q ° You ee ai vopps taeey aw alts eve ste 50955 Doecla:321127764 Page 29 | = yi Tis and plans to deliver weapons. rignt- ‘don?t have’any recollection to the cCOnErary, Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library a . BY MR. BELIN: a ee = | Q The last item I want to talk to you about at this 5 time goes back to 1962. I am sorry to skip back and forth. | HY 50955 Docld:3271127764 Page 30
10 il 12 | 13 14 15 20 al HY $0955 Docld:327112764 Page 31 A All right. Q You mentioned that the Attorney General, Robert Kennedy, was intimately involved with Operation Mongcose. And there appears to be a corroborating memorandum prepared by you dated October 16, 1962, pertaining to this, and i wonder if you would read this memorandum and see if it refreshes .your recollection. A ‘6 October 1962. When was the Cuban missile crisis? Q The Cuban missile crisis, I believe, was in October of 1962. A Colonel Patchell. TI had forgotten all about him. Q . This letterhas been marked Helms’. Exhibit 5. A That sort of lays it out, doesn't it? Q “Ambassador Helms, having read the Helms' Exhibit ‘ No. 5, this is a memorandum which you prepared which appears to have been. prepared on October 16, 1962, the date that you met with the Attorney General, is that correct? | A. Yes. Q And to the best of your recollection, did the Attorney General express the general dissatisfaction of the _ President with the Operation Mongoose? A t have every. reason to believe that what I wrote > » in that memorandum was the best of my recolkection of what was sai@ and. what went.on in the meeting described. . Q Would it be fair to say that the Attorney General TaD REM ST 7 - vera Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
on Gt! nw - 10 11 12. 13 14 15 16 17 18. 19 23 T DP SECRET was personally involved and continued to become more persnnall involved with the overall Mongoose Operation? A. Yes... Lee, Q ° Do you know whether or not at any time the’ Attorney General was ever advised of the fact that William Harvey had overtaken or had taken over a certain portion of the -Roselli operation? A --I don't have any recollection of that. Have you ever talked to Harvey, incidentally? 7 | Q. Yes, sir. | A. What did he have to say on the subject? Q-.-.-Well, Mr. Harvey never met with the Attorney. General but Mr.Harvey did say that he -- A ‘He never: saw the Attorney General?. ‘O07 He never discussed -- no, he didn't say that. A Oh. | Q He never discussed the particular plans in which he was personally involved with the Attorney General. A Iosee. I see. Q He did say that sometime in the spring of 1962 you became aware of those plans and that would be corroborated by other documentation that I have seen, and that he also said that you-and he determined not to brief the DCI on it at the. time and that is also corroborated by other documenta— tion that I have seen. Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 3271127764 Paye 32 o cacmcenpeniee nacre seen ree be aetna ae ee ae a ee enter ie nr ee en re we eee RE: eee Pe nN SAO EON storia tene eg BF AA PT Anat roan arama nan wmnasemanwny ; | |
L : A What sort of documentation? 2 ; QO Memorandum. iS) ( . A Memorandum for the record? 4 . . Q Weill, memorandum involving among other things, 5 . review of the entire area of this. I have notes on it. I: 6 - . | don't have the memorandum here at this time. v4 . ; t-don't know if I would call it a memorandum. for 3 . | a | the record but at-least there is some written documentation, 9 — | | , | | but I don't know whether made contemporaneously, that there “ O eas . . 1 was a decision not to brief DCI, McCone, the memorandum 3 having been talked about earlier. A Let me ask a very important question here at this i co —_ i ts point. — i , a 14 Q Surely. i is A~- ~ This plan that Harvey was alleged to have, how | 16 far did it.ever get? I mean, what I am trying to get at : 1? here is that we are dealing with a lot of conjecture, a lot i 168 of thoughts, a lot of ideas. Now, did any plan get down to the 3 19 point where somebody was about to get in a boat or, airplane | 20 and go to Cuba and do X or Y and it shows I approved this al happening or was this something he was going to try te develop Re | and see if it could fly and if there was any possibility : 25 that it might work, and so forth? ~ ae ' Q There are reports that the people with whom there. 25 was contact did get to Cuba with pills’ and with -- satis cA, Me PR gy fe CpE Sao , Photocopy from | : Gerald Ford Library HW 509355 Docld: 327112764 Page 33 =
A This was the first -~ Q -- other occasions. A First phase? Q° And also the second phase and in addition, there were subsequent reports that there were arms provided also and what you are saying is if this plan continued over a period of. several years it continued without your express overview,as I understand your testimony, is that correct? i } 4 A ‘Yes. My recollection of Harvey's dealings with Roselli or during most of. the period that was that nothing ever happened about anything. _Q- Well, certainly Mr. Castro is still living. A | Yes, but fl mean, I. think this ~~ I don't know whose “word to trust in this but I think that, you know, this is a pretty thin reed, ‘this: Roselli business. He was a ‘pain in the neck and an awful albatross but I think we got. zero” use out of him. - MR: MANFREDI:, Mr-Helms, this is Harold Baker, - | another member of the staff. : a THE WITNESS: How do you. do? _ MR. BELIN:. - Mr. Baker is going to be here tomorrow. I _ think at this time we will let you take a breather and / -at least. adjourn the deposition to Fesume: tonorrow morning. THE WITNESS: What. time would you like me here, Mr.Baker? Photocopy from mp it oe om Fey Pee Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32112764 Page 34
_MR. BAKER: Mr. Gray was going to start first. 2 MR. BELIN: Mr. Gray is not -~- well, I have asked | 3 the questions that Mr.Gray wanted to ask. 4 ; . ° MR. BAKER: I see. What would be convenient for “5 .. Bo ee ‘ you? 5 ie 2 eae a 6 ; | . Ho. |. _.. HE WITNESS: I want to meet your convenience. 9 . . oe I mean my desire is to be as available and get everything - done that we can so I-can get back to my job. 9 : . . . tee . . . ~~ MR. BAKER: Half past nine? |. - 10 a a - THE WITNESS: Fane. LL _ . MR. BELIN: All right. Well, thank you, Sir, for 12 |i . ; if your cooperation. THE WITNESS: Thank you. Iwant to cooperate. 1 14 want to help. I will try and be a little bit, lot more alert - tomorrow. 16. . ° oe ee (Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the taking of the t 1? -deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Thursday, gi 18 |) aprit 24, 1975.) - 19 oo. a: B 20 : 21 , | : 22 . a ek Z en Photocopy from 5 £5 ee ~~ ee a i Gerald Ford Library e ; 24 . - i E 25 | i tA ECR ST | é HW 50955 Docld:3271127764 Page 35