JFK Assassination System Date: 10/19/20 Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY: HSCA RECORD NUMBER: _ 180-10110-10004 RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY AGENCY FILENUMBER: 014718 Document Information ORIGINATOR: HSCA FROM: _ [Restricted] TO: TITLE: [Restricted] DATE: 07/17/1978 PAGES: 198 SUBJECTS : ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES CIA, METHODOLOGY MEXICO CITY [Restricted] [Restricted] [Restricted] Wc DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION: — Unclassified RESTRICTIONS: 3 CURRENT STATUS: — Redact DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 01/01/2003 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Two duplicates follow and are included in Box 2 in four folders.Box 1. v9.1 ; 1 DoclTd:32263409 Page 1
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2 4 ~ © . 4d 4 a = - = : = < md 1 a wa fo} ~ ~ . e ~ n~ / — ™ = a = ™ . (o} u ? a a F = ‘10 ja i] a Pe 3 = si) « RUTEDING, ray Tie a me “ aad j= faa w = Y Pat os . = 2 is 7 13 | 300 7h STREET, 44 Sze 44 fe fe 29 o~ ad Za a2 - toa in te neuse Docld: 32263409 Page 3 indulgence anc just set CONFIDENTIAL tt fee Goldasm " k - Woule you state your name Mr. Rocca. Raymond G. Rocca. R-O-C-C-A. The acdress is 490 Lincen -- L-I-N-D-E-N - Are vcu here tcday volunta Mr. Goldsmith. you here without then subpoena on the cart of the committee? Mr. Pecca. That is correct. Mr. Goldsmith. Off the reccers. (Discussion off the record) Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Recca, do vou understa a right to have counsel present tocay? Mr. Rocca. Yes, indeed. Mr. Goldsmith. And do you waive that rich Mr. Rocca. I waive thet richt. Mr. Goldsmith. At least for new. Mr. Rocca. Yep. I expect that I will be rms of the caveats incicated here where to anc proceed. Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Ne problem. Have you received a copy of the committee Resolutions 222, 433, anc 7éC? Mr. Rocca. I have -- for retention. CON PIDENTIAS ALDER SOM BREPC@TNG COMEANY. Inc. J) rilv eec to resort née that vou t? able to iudge ask your rules a Lm
a CON FIODENTIAS, 3 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. | Have you hac an opnertunityv to read Rule Number 4. ~ | Mr. Rocca. .I have, indeed. I mean, I‘ve read it. | ! + ; re ; | Mr. Goldsmitn. De yeu understand it as well? = ~ | Mr. Rocca. 2 understand it to the extent that it's 4 iy : = wa . . 4 “ : | possible uncer these circumstances. | . | 7 . _ . . . . LS Mr. Goldsmith. De you have any questions about it now? | = ‘ | s 2 ~ . . S | Mr. Rocca. I have no questions about it now. ~ 4 t JooF | . ; . . ‘ i Mr. Goldsmith. Under the committee rules, Mr. Rocca, a = td 4 ote Yn : ht L - at: £ n + ys + aan S i Witness has a right to receive a cony of a deposition transcript. = # In other words, whenever a witness cives a deposition statement, > G24 ; . . . - | he has a right to receive a covy of the transcript. : = In! ; kad + = h However, the Centrai Intelligence Agency has asked tre | = i Sots 4 Pe | committee to request of present and former Agencv employees to) = 4 a org _ S % waive their right actually to receive a copy cf the transcrint. z eee The Agency is concerned that the transcript has classified Mr. Rocca. I do. ZT ON hg H iw) ty % | io i lad ca Cas ; el. | information in it and would not want the transcrint to leave = the committee's secure areas. ~ So, for that reason, I would like te ask vou whether S 20 | | you are willing to waive your right to receive a copy of the |; BSE i transcrint. By doing so, however, vou woulé still have the —_, | full right to review the transcript for accuracy anc to make | 22 | . | | any necessary corrections. So, all you are waiving is your i | right to receive a copy. | i C " ‘ 1 ‘ Docld:32263409 Pale 4 AILIERSON SEPORTING COMPANY. Inc. 7?
CONFIDENTIAL it Let me say that membership in the Agency has long since | 2 | oe | | comportec the waiving of constitutional rights in various aH | @ - i resvects. This is simply another -- : ‘ i Mr. Goldsmith. I won't be asking you toe waive any more 2 ~ || xights, I hope. fl iv 78 F I would like you to know thaet.the Court Reporter will =. ft on 7 i 1 > . . 7 ! S be asked to certify the transcript as a: complete, accurate, => Hy } = “4 anc true recore of ail the testimony given. | : ! Mr. Rocca. Wiil there be an opportunity to correct it? : = , onere are mis-speakings and that kind of thing, whatever that ; = 14 c ‘4 word means. It has dust been coined in.the last year or so, |- wi uh - "it "I mis-spoke." cs " ~ ‘ @ :,1 ! 13 : . ' ; : wot i Mr. Goldsmith. You will be civen an opportunity tc review a 4) the transcript for accuracy. -If, in your opinion: it is not |: = | ~ 1a: ! > ‘“# accurate, there is a procedure for rectifving those tynes of a i | problems.» 7s) 17 . . 2 Now, are you retired from the Central Intellicence Agency? = Mr. Rocca. I am. n t = 43 . . . = Mr. Goldsmith. Rave you received a cory of Acting [mag ; es 4 o 20 . } pn 1 + 23 March 1978 letter w ‘ h £ th : Director Carlucci's 23 March, 1978 letter which, for the record, corresponds with JFK exhibit number 24? Mr. Rocca. 223 March, 1978 -- I have. Mr. Goldsmith. That is the letter that svecifically discusses the question of secrecy egreements and authorizes Agency employees to respond to relevant questions made by this. : CON PIDENTIAL i Doclda: 32263409 Page 5 LOERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC.
10 11 | 12 ‘@ 13 14 15 16 | 17 18 19 20 21 22 © 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL 5 committee. Mr. Rocca. Yes. It also contains caveats which protect the continued interest in sources and in methods, which I regard as adequate under the circumstances, and therefore I accept this, and I understand. Mr. Goldsmith. You understand that letter? Mr. Rocca. Yes. Ee wants me to tell you all you need to know in order to get your job Gone. Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. I believe the letter indicates that so long as questio relevant to the committee's mandate are addressed to the witness, the Agency is authorizing you to answer those questions. I woul@ like to have this marked and offered as an exhibit. (The document referrec to was marked Rocca Exhibit Number 1.) Mr. Rocca. I judge that this is the standard type of thing. Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. Goldsmith. I will indicate for the record that this exhibit is one that we have used for every witness that the committee either knew worked for the Central SONFIDENTIAL DoclId: 322763409 Page 6 i
‘@ DoclId: 322763409 Page 7 10 il 12 13 14 . 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 letter to witnesses who had no connection with the Agency. in 1963? CONFIDENTIAL Intelligence Agency or thought might have worked for the | Central Intelligence Agency. We have, at times, given the How many vears were you employed with the CIA? Mr. Rocca. From its inception in 1937 to the 3lst of December, 1974. | Mr. Goldsmith. What position did you hold when you | retired in 1974? Mr. Pocca. I was Deputy Chief of the Counter Intelligence + - | i staff. , . a ——, Mr. Goldsmith. What position did vou hold in 1963, at the time of President Kennedy's assassination? Mr. Rocca. I was Chief of the Research and Analvsis Division of the CI staff, the Counter Intelligence staff. Mr. Goldsmith. Is that known as CI/RS&A? : Mr. Rocca. That is. Correct. Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibility, if any, did you have with regard to the CIA's investigation of the assassinatipn | Mr. Rocca. My responsibilities, in my own words, were | to serve as the working level point of contact and facilitation to the Warren Commission staff, the working level point cf contact and facilitation. That was initiated some time in January. There is a Memorandum of record which represented the results of CONFIDENTIAL
10 11 12 ‘@ 13 14 “15 16 17 18 © 19 20 21 22 ,@ 23 publication, which was ‘called the NIS Section 56 at that time. CONFIDENTIAL 7 conversations at about that time, which informed me of this eecision. In other words, it was not a thing that I sought. Mr. Goldsmith. Before we go into your responsibilities Counter Intelligence Research and Analysis staff did in 1963? In other words, what was the purpose of that unit? Mr. Rocca. The unit was designed to bring to bear in more detail, would you describe for the record what the i analytical intelligence, analytical brainpower, which meant 2 | all source, all overt source comprehension: a study of cases / | that had ceased to occupy operational significance, that is, closed cases; to maintain the ongoing record of overall ee quality and quantity of counter intelligence being performed —K-. by the entire DDP operational component: to -~ operational component -- the Deputy Director for Plans. | Mr. Goldsmith. That's just in caps -- DDP. Mr. Rocca. DDP -- I have listed now three functions, broadly speaking. To keen the community informed on the organization's structure and operational potential, that is, the threat of all intelligence services throughout the world, that is, by supervising the writing of an encyclonedic ! This was a specific responsibility of the component. In other words, it was a ‘research support for operational components. The final major function, anc this is important, is training. We were responsible for the supervision and CONFIDENTIAL DoclId: 32263409 Page 6
10 11 12 ‘@ 13 © 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 .@ 22 23 Docld:322763409 Page 9 CONFIDENTIAL | performance of CI training. So, we kept the CI indicators, the overall record of CI organization throughout the world -- that is, the adversarv| services -- we worked on cases when they had ceased to be of Girect concern to the operational components, and tried to mak relationships between cases. We were concerned, obviously, on the training side in working with other parts of the intelligence community, as | i weli as training inside, and so forth. | . } t I think that those five broad topics -- I could narrow | them down -- 7 WP Mr. Goldsmith. No, that's fine. Mr. Rocca. I think this is sufficient to get us started Mr. Goldsmith. Who was in charge of the CIA's investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy? | Mr. Rocca. As far as I know, there was no formal | provision for investigation. The investigation was the FBI's I not7CIA#s resvonsibility. Mr. Goldsmith. Within CIA, isn't it fair to say that initially Jack Whitten was given responsibility for conducting the investigation? Mr. Rocca. I don't want to nit-pick your language, but | that was not an investigative responsibility, as I understood it. The GP Floor vhase, which he headed uv -- | CONFIDENTIAL
10 11 12 ‘@ B 14 15 16 17 18 - 19 20 21 © 22 CONFIDENTIAL Mr. Goldsmith. The GP Floor? Mr. Rocca. Floor phase. Mr. Goldsmith. Would you define for the record what GP Floor is? Mr. Rocca. GP Floor was the code name assigned by the DDP, by Mr. Helms and Mr. Karamissines and the desks, to characterize cable traffic during the initial phase of the Agency's relationship with the various authorities and with its own organizations or components overseas. This is a code facilitation, a telegram or telecraphic consideration. And, during that phase, it was indeed Mr. “hitten's ressdn=--—. sibility. I think he did an extremely good job. Mr. Goldsmith. So, GP Floor was a code name which was assignec to cable traffic pertaining to the Kennedy assassinat is that correct? | Mr. Rocca. As far as I know, during the period of November through January, and then it was phased out. Mr. Goldsmith. And Mr. Whitten initially had responsibility for -- Mr. Rocca. Coordinating traffic, for working with the DDP with respect to what was being done over the whole world, as far as I know. This was before I got into it. Mr. Goldsmith. After Mr. Whitten ne longer had responsibility in that area, who took over the responsibility for coordinating the Agency's investigation? CONFIDENTIAL Docld: 322763409 Page 10 hon,
10 ad CONFIDENTIAL 1 Mr. Rocca. As far as I know, there was no further | 2 eryvptonym assigned to it. | | 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Nevertheless, without a cryptonym being ‘@ 4 assigned to it-- | 5 | Mr. Rocca. And therefore cables would go to the DDP, «6 would go to Mr. Helms or Mr. Karamissines, the various desks. 7 In other words, it became a decentralized responsibility. i 8 In other words, there wasn't, as far as I can make 9 out, a formal placement of an investigative responsibility. | 10 | Mr. Goldsmith. Informally, who -- | 11 | Mr. Rocca. i became -- or the CI staff and I for the 12 staff became then -- because by that time a commission Wad —b-~ ‘@ . 13 || beer formed --' had”become the point of contact for the 14 || commission. 1 1 i i i i t ' | 15 Mr. Goldsmith. So, informallv, the CI staff was : | 16 responsible for coordinating the CIA's investigation? | M Mr. Rocca. This is where I wonder about the use of the 18 term -- that is, whatever we had done, whatever we were to do 19 or did to assist the Warren Commission focused in the staff. 20 Mr. Goldsmith. In the CI staff. | 21 Mr. Rocca. In the CI staff. | .e 22 |) Mr. Goldsmith. at ‘tthe time, who was in charge of the | CI staff? Mr. Rocca. Mr. Angleton, and Mr. Hunt was his deputy. Mr. Goldsmith. Was that Mr. E. Howard Hunt? CONFIDENTIAL Docld: 32263409 Page 11
10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 - 19 20 21 @ 22 ( 03 | Docld: 322763409 Mr. Mr. Mr, Mr. 11 CONFIDENTIAL Rocca. No. Goldsmith. Rocca. Mr. i\adifferent person. Goldsmith. For the record, who is Mr. Hunt? Hunt was Mr. James Hunt, a totally Do you know why the responsibility for providing information to the Warren Commission was given to the CI staff as opposed to Mr. Whitten? a guess Mr. Rocca. I do not. I would judge -- and I am guessing now, this is vourely -~- I never discussed it with him -- that as Chief of the Mexican Desk, which was his former job, the whole parametar, of the case had shifted from its initial phase of October and November, wnere traces came up involving his files and his handling of the initial leads that developed out of the Mexican resources, and ne no longer regarded it as really his primary responsibility. Mr. Goldsmith. Was there any conflict between Mr. Angleton and Mr. Whitter regarding the manner in which the investigation was to be conducted? M wih Rocce. As far as I know, there was none, and I @id not hear of any at the time -- or since. Mr. Goldsmith. Is it true that initially Mr. Whitten was given responsibility for the investigation and that Mr. Angleton in some manner irnterceded in the investigation being conducted by Mr. Whitten? lage 12 CONFIDENTIAL
‘@ 4 10 1l 12 ‘@ 8 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 .e | 22 23 Docld: 32263409 Page 13 CONFIDENTIAL 12 Mr. Rocca. If so, I do not know this and cannot | sustain that allegation, by any information direct or indirect. I have never heard it even as hearsay. By the whole line of questioning, I judde that you have your own interests. i i | i } | Really, Mr. Whitten sat here (indicating) ina small" desk in WH for the Mexican area. He was in a position to develop through the assets of the Mexico station extremely interesting material, which at the time was not recognized, | { obviously, as pertaining to anything like what came out of it t t in October or late September, and that was entirely appropriate . + . . . ’ . ! to the WH division and area, and functional division. | | | Mr. Goldsmith. WH stands for Western Hemisphere? { t Mr. Rocca. Western Hemisphere -- not White House -- underline that, please, because this is another of the canards., “As I say, it was entirely appropriate in the GP Floor phase that he would have that. But the minute you had a | commission set up outside the line obviously had to be the | Director, and from the Director to his Chief of Operations | overseas, because the spread involved then all of the d@ivisiong. Here you had Mr. Whitten being asked to sign off on cables that had to do with Netherlands, with U.K., with Australia, and it would have seemed to me utterly administratively simply ja hybrid monster. So, in effect, the. concentration of supervisory CONFIDENTIAL | | | | | |
10 11 12 ‘@ 13 14 15 16 7 18 - 19 20 21 ' @ 22 DoclId: 322763409 CONFIDENTIAL: 13 authority on the assistance being given the Warren Commission once they got underway was something, as I understand it, negotiated between the Commission itself and Mr. Helms. Mr. Angleton was present. I may have been present at the i}meeting which decided that R & A would be the point of reference. I cannot recall. a Le But there is a memorandum -- off the record -~ there ana you should have it. Mr. Goldsmith. There is a memorandum for the record which indicates --~ Mr. Rocca. In January, which indicates how that thing cot off. And it dispells, I think, any idea that there was some kind of internal machination. Mr. Goldsmith. Where would that memorandum for the record he found -~ because we have reviewed many files and have not come across that particular memorandum? Mr. Rocca. Well, it should be found in the file. i Mr. Goldsmith. Would it be in the Oswald file? Mr. Rocca. It would be in the Oswald file, and it should be arcund January. Mr. Goldsmith. Who is the author of that memorandum? Mr. Rocca. The author of that memoranéum must have e been Mr. Helms himself, or Mr. Karamissines. It reflected conversations that tookplace with Mr. Rankin. It may be a Warren Commission memorandum. CONFIDENTIAL qe 14
10 11 12 (@ 13 14 15 16 17 18 © 19 20 21 ' @ 22 23 DoclId: 32263409 But CONFIDENTIAL that memorandum exists. Ané, as I say, the memorandum, to me, represented a logical evolution of what hac gone on in the development of the case. va mr. Goldsmith. Would you be able to locate that memoranéum for the committee? In other words, do you still have a relationshin with the Agency which would permit vou to obtain that memorandum? out the go off people moment. in this deposition. Mr. re, Can the who Mr. (Di Mr. Mr. Rocca. Well. if vou could arrange it for me to go I would. we have a little bit of a diversion now and verhaps record? I want to ask about a number of other helped, wno would know this. Goldsmith. Fine. Let's go off the record fora But I don’t want to go off the record a whole lot scussion off the record.) Goldsmith. Let's go back on the record. Rocca. I have no formal knowlecge of it by- Girection or indirection, or hearsay. Mr. Mr. Mr. Goldsmith. By "it" you are referring to -- Rocca. Of such a thing having havpened. Goldsmith. You have to understand, Mr. Rocca, that we went off the record. So, for the record, by “it,” what are ou referring to? ge 15 Mr. Rocca. The shift of the responsibility for overall CONFIDENTIAL | |
| CONFIDENTIAL 15 “4 |coordination of what the Agency was doing, from WH, Mr. Whitten, |to the staff. This was an utterly. logical’ and completely 3 : @ what I would call inevitable in terms of cost effectiveness and . 4 ) everything else. 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did the shift take place right at the time that the Warren Commission was established? : eee! 7 * ee ; Mr. Rocca. I have in memory the date 12 January, and | this is something that just comes now right out of my head. Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. | | 10 . Mr. Rocca. So, it was pursuant to that. 11 | ! Mr, Goldsmith. Why was the responsibility for the 12 investigation -- I am using that now in an informal sense, because I think you feel more comfortable with that -- why was! | | 14 | the responsibility given to CI staff as opposed to some other 15 tf staff within the DDP? 16 Mr. Rocca. Because that's our business. CI has 17 the business of dealing with activity involving espionage, 18 sabotage, subversion, terrorism, and the whole works.. It is 19 spelled out in 1-l, Chapter 5. You will find that absolutely 20 stated formally. 21 . . Mr. Goldsmith. So, of all the units within the CIA in 1963, the CI staff, you are saying, was best suited to be responsible for this? Mr. Rocca. That's right, yes, because, in addition, th staff had:the responsibility for the DDP, for maintaining the Docld:32263409 Page 16 CONFIDENTIAL
‘@ 4 10 ll 12 (‘@ 13 14 15 - 16 17 18 19 20 21 eo » relations, the liaison relations, with the office of security jwithin the Agency itself, the office of security, and with the l PBI and other agencies. This was by directive 1-1, Chapter 5. I underline the importance of 1-1, Chapvter 5. Mr. Goldsmith. That is the CI staff charter? Mr. Rocca. Charter -- anc this shift was preciselv is my reading now in retrospect. Mr. Goldsmith. What was the line of reporting within the CIA with regard to information that was relevant to the assassination? By line of reporting I mean once information was received, who did it co to? T:-am talking now about the time the CI staff was responsible for the investication. Mr. Rocca. There were -- this is where you are going off, because the CI staff never displaced Mr. Helms in his direct relations with the Commission. The CI staff never Gisplaced the direct relations between the Soviet Division, Mr. Murphy, Mr. Bagley, with the Commission. The CI staff never displaced the direct relations between.Mr. Whitten -- even after it had taken over. In other words, it was a decentralized approach. Now the material that did come through of a substantive nature developed by these comvonents, and particularly the Soviet division, were broucht down in the normal flow of cay CONFIDENTIAL DoclId: 322763409 Prge 17 Seaton: TT Nee directly in line with the immlications of that charter. This ~ { | CONFIDENTIAL 16!
10 ll 12 ‘@ 8 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 (@ Docld: 32263409 Plage 16 CONFIDENTIAL 17 to day work. ‘They were reviewed by me or by the assistants I had, and they were Mr. Tom Hall, Mr. Thomas Hall, Ph.D., University of Chicago, in Slavic Studies, and our Russian expert: Mr. Paul Hartman, who was a general research and search man for the whole of the community and its resources: and Mr. Arthur Dooley -- D-0-O-L-E-Y -- a former member of the . FBI who had transferred to the Agency many years before. Now these veople actually were cealing with the actual working level in the various divisions, or the various divisional elements, particularly in SB, would be working with me. Mr. Goldsmith. Let's see if we can clarify this for a moment. Overall responsibility was in the hands of Mr. Helms. Mr. Rocca. That's correct. Now you're talkine -- and | that never chanced. | - Mr. Goldsmith. That never changed from the verv beginning? Mr. Rocca. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Helms was in charge, and Mr. Karamissines, his deputy, when he was not there. For sensitive aspects, Mr. Angleton and these two were in charge, or the division people. Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Angleton heavily involved in the investifation, other than occasional sensitive matters that arose? Mr. Pocea. I think not. I think this is a correct CONFIDENTIAL
10 11 12 ‘@ 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 @ CONFIDENTIAL 4 oo appraisal of his role at that time. He attended the general meetings. Let me give you an example of what I have in mind. Though I was the working level voint of contact with the committee, that is, I knew Mr. Slawson in ana worked, I believe, closely and profitably with without reservation, there was another historian. event, I was not cleared for the Nosenko case. So, attend any of the discussions that took place on that matter, and that, too, is a matter of formal record. You should find that recorcé to back that up have not found it. In other words, if vou are looking for a fixed point of particular him, anc Tn any I did not -- if you investigation here, you have to keep in mind that again, you had access to sources and methods and compartmentation was observed, notwithstanding the fact that I was the working level point of contact. Mr. Goldsmith. So, the Nosenko case would be an example of a situation where Mr. Angleton would have been involved. Mr. Rocca. It was Mr. Murphy. Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Angleton involved as well? Mr. Rocca. I cGon't think he was at the meeting that concerned it over at the Warren Commission, because I had the delicious experience of being asked to leave at a certain CONFIDENTIAL DoclId: 322763409 Page 19 f <
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2 @ : 4 4 wo = § S 3 oe i wn , wi 8 ~ ~ ; c - ~ / ~ x 2 eS ~~ Land iN S $ e = (IG S ™ a = Hand = ! uu} < = 13 . = a 14 a ' = Hota “sn = mots 2 " a 5 = te is = “ 7 300 ITH STRELT, “0 A nae as sees nw) nm Ww dan Docld: 322763409 Page 21 .29 CONFIDENTIAL ADLINGUAL vrocram? n de ON o) IAL ROM REPORTING COMPANY, INC. I’m taiking about that material. Ee would | jrmave hancdies that. i Anc. inceea, wnen I reac it in 1375, it was clear that i j ' Hate Papich hac come over on Saturcay morning and had taken | fall of the material on that file. But that was the first time im knew that that part of -- in other words, there was very strict compartmentation utilized within the whole groun in lorder to protect sources and methcds at the time that we were ; jatcempting to help this body. That's the mnoint that I'n | | wtrying te make. ' 2 233 “ : i Mr. Ancleton's role would have been, I would have timaginec, in that connection. i . { “Mr, Golcsmith. Was Mr. Anglieton’s role rnerinheral or \central to the investicsation? i | Mr. Rocca. How can you say with an asset like that. . 3 + va or ~ Saree | hat it coulc be peripheral? I= con't Know, because I was not } : brivy to the materials. But I coulc cuess that it must have if . | heen important for him to nut that material of Pacich's to use . | immediately. i i Mr. Goldsmith. Well, how much material was generated le : + py the HDLINGUAL program? ; ti | Mr. Recca. I have no way of really recalling. it was file and I see no reason why you shouldn't have it.
y - at t : | ones you can answer the question yourself. 2 | Myr. Goldsmith. I want to exolain to vou, Mr. Rocca, po @ > that the mere fact that -- Mr. Roce a. I ¢€on't mean to be impertinent. =a - ii Mr. Goldsmith. -- files anc Cocuments are mace available' a 4 ; =° us coesn't necessarily meen that the files and documents 7 ht . = . - x “in accurate. One of the reason for taking derasition statement ¢ 7? iis because files and statements are not always accurate In ‘3 ° | fact, one of the purposes of this committee is te verify the = i = !0 i! accuracy of the Agency's own files. = i = ce Mr. Rocca. I take your point on. that. . Let me say that i = 14 i 1 1 1 = . : ~“ i2 jin one respect, for that reason, the Oswalc file, which was @ fa | qe !3 tthe file that R & A kept, that is, the material vertainin = | Zora : 4 “= §# ito the 201 file -- you can be sure is the file because it = $3 ‘was computerized, and you can't chance the comouter order - Y { Pa i ; od 14a: el BJ : : oS jwithout leaving a record. Therefore you can be sure that ; ne Weverything that went into it is stiil in it. . ; a a / Mr. Goldsmith. With regard te. the HDLINGUAL file, you | on i = iil, - a + : ‘ , : = ” | inaicatee before, .I belii ieve, that the file was a thick one. oa 20 Its that true? t ay: wy A + J cee | Mr. Rocca. No, not trick Tt must have contained Cy ®@ SNe | fi > | ee) i . yn |seven or eight letters or so. But the man who woulé know 13 | ~ jexactly is Mr. Birch O'Neiil. He headed the project. “4 Mr. Goldsmith. fe've spoken to. Mr. Birch O'Neill. ch . i Mr. Rocca. I mean, he must know this exactly, then. 7 CON FPFPZTDENTIAL Docld: 322763409 Page 22 ALTEESON RESTARTING COMPANY, fc. i
CONFIDENTIAL 22 i ; |! | He must know this exactly. fH a 7 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Again, the fact that we have talked tc , { other people does not mean that we do not want information from| 4 } you, if you’ have that. information. wn = € | ~ ~ i Mr. Rocca. Of course not. ' if \ =o, | . ” ~ il Mr. Goldsmith. To the best of your recollection, how o id . . . i LS 4 | say Oswald intercepts were there in the PDLINGUAL program? _ fF e ~ it Mr. Rocca. Oh, this woulc be -- 1f vou have to -- ™ i ; a} 7 | + otk aK! = 1 ‘ jas I say, I.reacd it in 1975 at the moment the Rockefeller ~ 10 os ; ; : Ly , \ S | Commission was coming in. I’m sure they lookec at the whole : = | thing ~~ Mr. Ford, or whatever is the name of. the incividual ” te : ‘ has x t - | who was concerned. I went throuch it cursorily witn Mrs. Matson. @ = 12 | . . . . i a | She is the person who hanced me the file. There must nave he . i} = i a | Been five, or six, or seven. But this is pure guess. There mav S ~ be twelve, there may be three -- I can't say... ~ Mr. Goldsmith. Was there more than one? a 17 H ' a. Mr. Rocca. Oh, there was more than one. so -Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. ne ne ; i} - ~ ‘Getting back to the cuestion of organization, I think i a understand from vour testimenyv -- | Bot i Mr. Rocca. . When I sav. more than one, it involves botn © n> 7 aa i : i os jends, that is, materials going out from Mrs. Oswald and material ; : 22 | 7 | com ming in from him. I don’t Knew what the proportion 15 or 34 i . . te . i even if there were things coming in, or 15 1t was confined | . 25! | solety’ te things going out. As I say, this is somethin¢e Docld: 322763409 Paiye 23 ALDERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC
23 , CONFIDENTIAL } : i i ‘i not a part of my bag. | Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. I understand. ' @ - Getting back to the question of organization, I think * jr. nave icatea =-- vy 2 7h Mr. Rocca. So, you have very clearly in mind now that | t i mi) “yan two areas that were of significance, I was completely cut ; | c 7: i SI 7 | ocut. aM 2 ‘ . : e <i Mr. Goldsmith. Yes.. . i | S 7 Mr. Rocca, I'm sorry to have.to ask you this again, but | = 19 byvou are going to have to listen to mv questions, and please try, = '' ynot to interrupt me. ~ ey Finally, getting back to the question of organization, oat Hy H = if , @ _— M it . 1 : « ‘3 | for purposes of clarification, now, I think vou've indicated co t4 yj . . t ». «very clearly that in terms of overall responsibility, it was = '* | in the hands of Mr. Helms 7 nam ‘Is that correct? - Mr. Rocca. That 1s correct. = : | . r s a -_- = an Mr. Goldsmith. ther than that, I think. you’ have n t ‘ if ! = «3 i & an indicated that the investigation was decentralized to some 1 . | c i ° 29 extent in that different area Givisions, primarily Western ! ‘ a1 ii ; ; Be oe {Hemisphere and Soviet Europe were sending information upstream | ND ee a 5: : : woN ito headquarters -- and there may have been other civisions : | | | ; . . . _ jas well sending information, but primarily it was Nestern iwemisphere and Soviet Russia -- is that correct? i ec il ; ao 4 : : Mr. Rocca. Yes. ! : CONFIDENWTIAS i . Docld:32263409 Paye 24 BLEEASON REPCATING COMPANY, INC.
CONFIDENTIAL Mr. Helms held weekly meetings at which these i ; | t + 2 | gene alizations were spread and which Civision chiefs complied *. 1 with. ! @ | | Hy ~ = . - - . : { * : Myr. Goldsmith. Now, all of the information that the a | = * i division chiefs were sending upstream at one time or another, = i i ww : 2 . . i “i 3 | T believe, went throuch the CI/R&A staff, is that correct? : as | Mr. Rocca. I can’t say that ail of them Gdid. Those i § | Rat are marked plainly on the record as having been were -- if: : 3 (| 1 on H v 7 | they are all, I don't know. * : i * 3 A ~ . - : = iO Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. I realize that you can't state $ 4 ~ : = to . . ! e op that all were. But, as a matter cf vour best recollection now -- 3 ' - “te | Mr. Rocca. Mr. Helms incicated that all material. ee . i eee e '* iibearing on anything that could be of assistance to the sage 5 i ts ij. ‘ ; : a < 2 2 no! i Warren Commission shoulc be seen by CI staff and R & A and & 1 imarkec for us. He issued very, very strictly worded % si , ; . | . 18 | indications ~- they were verbal insofar as I know -- that i - ‘ [vers to leave no stone unturnec. — = } , -4 Cone cel . ; _ : . : i ~ = “| Mr. Goldsmith. And were Mr. Helms’ orders generally ~ = Poon = 1 | So: |; -OLlowed? Eng | | -. | Mr. Rocca. As far as I know, they were followec to tne |; H ‘ “ay a Sh OD at r, Vv 1 h know £ ‘ pees ytette , by all that I know o | oN “4 Mr. Goldsmith. So, if you were asking different i : ““ Ja@ivisions to send to CI/R & A information fertinent to the 24 | Jinvestigation, can we assume safelv that most of that ‘information did, in fact, go to CI/R&A? i CONFIDENT I AL i ALOERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 32263409 Page 25 ALL SRS Raw - 24
(202) $5"-2305 20024 fh. REOPTERS SUTEBTHG, HASUTHGTON, « ave Ss 200 7TH STRERT, de qa in ™ a as) io bse iF -~ “i as at a 2 od wm n. ; ; : ; | i H i | ra a Hy t CONFIDENTIAL 25 Mr. Rocca. Your question turns-on most of it. There is no way that I can jucge whether most of it did or net. That.which struck some division chief or his assistant would have come forward, and much did. Mr, Goldsmith. Assuming that Mr. Heims' orders were 2 Kh td (9) Q Q 9 < (D 1] 105] a .¢3) G Jd H 4 3s Q ct + cr iy [)) t< s oO K 0) th @) fe to 9 ri ray overall QO ie) 2 4 Au K Oo & oa i] PQ. fu Q fe] ct @ tin is) K ce © a) (0) Q QO K Q wr Oo = ct iu (()) responsibility for the investication was divided between the Au fas HB) (0 OQ Hi the vv FBI an I understand that both organizations have diffenent—- charters and different purposes. What was your understandin of the CIA's responsibilities for the investigation, as oppo ~) fe) ct. to taf FRIis Mr. Recca. Well, as vou have already cetecteca an i object, I think, in principle to the use of the word "“investication," to apply to the CIA. Mr. Goldsmith. Well, now woulc you like me to phrase the auestion? I would be glace to do that. . Rocca. CIA made its entire worldwice rescurces available to the Commission to assist it in Gathering all information within the nowers of its operatives anc its ” Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying, then, that the CIA CONFIDENTIAL DocId: 32263409 Page 26 ALDERECN REPORTING COMPANY. g
" Hn : } | 2 | th if iH soit wn | = 5 “ ~ |] N iy § i wa 8 i 2 | = rll ww i t = Hi nN 3 i = i = . Hi a5 yf = = oi] = t wee t = ~H on @ =: :/] = so! = i vi u = a: i im ad 4 Bows 4 = i | = i ; =| ” 17 | & ig | = | oe) i = =: | = e a - 29 { i ar: cr Me as | i , i t> uy nh [ee , an t 1 ‘ I | | | | | j i Docld: 322763409 Pate 27 N Oo A ctr S provided information but it dic not concuc investication? Mr, Rocoa. But at times it made use of investicative technicues. But I have read enough Bureau rFenorts to know oe ene Lia on 4 investicative responsibilities were in the domestic authcrities, and that investigations done abroad, even those, were repeated by the Bureau. Mr .Goldsmith. So, the Bureau, in effect, was conducting an investigation overseas? Mr. Rocca. The Bureau was the primary investigative authority. to cetermine what the different areas jere between the Bureau and CIA -- in light of that point, ad what was the responsibili the CIA? Mr. Rocca. The CIA was to turn over anc to cevelon any information. bearing on the assassination that could be cf assistance to the Warren Commission. vr. Goldsmith. Was that information given directly to the Warren Commission or directly to the Bureau? Mr. Rocca. It was given to both in many cases. Mr. Goldsmith. Now, even though the "PI isn't technically authorized to conduct investications overseas, are vou saying that in effect the Rureau was thé agency NTIAL (G COMPANY, INC.
CONFIDENTIAL primarily responsible for overseas investigations pertaining 2 | to the assassination? ! 2 i Mr. Rocca. On matters that were of substantive to, . ; es | interest, I think that is accurate. That is certainly the | ; ; a - |..Case in Mexico, where your statement that they are not “ HO ST i : = ; a s | technically -- a i) _ S 7 I Mr. Goldsmith. Authorized. = 4 . _— ws . . : ¢ 2 Mr. Rocca -~ authorized, I think is in a carey area; Jc  % | and where it was never contested that they hac primary . : i . i = ic '| responsibility -- and therefore they repeatec investigations. | = 4 \ me tly Mr, Goldsmith. What was the role of.™r. McCone? = it ‘ : ' ~ ie 3 Mr. Rocca. I had no meetings with him during that @ ‘3 | period that I can recall, at all. . = HI i = | - | I have nothing to say that would bear on this. z= i . | = is 4 T am sure he authorized comoite support. = i ee : ~ S| Mr. Goldsmith. But in terms of actual involvement = “ cin the CIA's work in this area, do you know what his = gt tata tee FA nan responsibilities were? a“ i _ = | : t eT | _Mr. Rocca. No. I can’t speak to that. Ss \ “ al Mr. Goldsmith. I would like now for you to refer to a document which I will call CIA number 187€. For the record I will indicate that. the Acency has provided documents to the committee. The Agency, for security reasons, , nent t 3 gency ¥ | has numbered those documents so that the’ Agency can insure |> later on that all of the documents have been returned. | Docld:322763409 Paye 25 ALDES
2 4 Js @ 4 4 wf = x pal pa) ~. : = ww 4 w $ ~«~ ~ : - a 7 — s a < ™ . a to , ~ a = «19 = S = SS = ty = fi wt “ = 1 le cs = 12 e ~ _ — = = : = Td a x he Pal - = ts ° > Be z= : = 16 ~ =. . - n 7 - a = te » 43 od on _ 1. = iv ~ c a = 720 2 4 ee . Se ~ ira ye At AN nw i) to uy nn) a Docld: 322763409 Page 29 CONFIDENTIAL 28 hij fcr my purroses I refer to these numbers so chat thev can be usec. for the recora. So, the Agency's number, that thev use for security purnoses, we use for reference purnoses Tt would like to refer you to CIA number 1876 and ask you to read the first question and the answer to yourself. Mr, Rocce. Yes. I wrote it after talking with ‘Mr. Goldsmith. This is a memo fer the recoré dated Mr. Rocca. That is correct. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. I only have a few questions concerning thet first paracraph. Mr. Rocca. Well, the multilevel -- you see, I usec the word "multilevel" there -- that is the word that I now here refer to as aecentralizec. Mr. Goldsmith. =F understand. Mr. Rocca. I am glad there is some concorcance. Mr. Goldsmith. The question: that..I nave for you -- in this.first paragraph you sav that CI hac own defector input. What did you mean by that, if you remember? Mr. Rocca. Oh, I remember it exactly, because I Q NY ean IPIDENTIAL ALSERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
“, GC es NF | { _ | This. was Golitzin | | DENTIA 29 Tr 43 ° | Mr. Goldsmith: In other words, Golitzin giving ‘| information to the CIA which -- 4 | ; ; | Mr. Rocca. Givinc-it to me. a | ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Giving it to you. t } : en || Mr. Rocca. Yes. | ~ i | Poor} - : S | Mr. Goldsmith. Which you would then forward orn to | x S 4 the orover: authorities. a 34 ; = i Mr.-Rocca. Yes. It is the basis cf the report -- it | i : = ' is the basis of the renort which you must have, I'm sure, = toa . _ oes. = ;| because it's been released. have gotten a copy and Iuse | $ i ~ aN ; = v5 I : s : fa oo . , . So e 4 it cver in the DIS course that I am giving, the seminar, a ‘ = ; on Soviet intelligence. It is called tne "uses ef Assassination S - ' and Executive Action by Soviet Intelligence.” S 4 Tt's a memo, it's a combinec memo, cone by Mr. Wigren and Pe i = 14 4 ; . . — | 63 -- Mr. Wicren was Mr. Murphy's research anc analysis person; = | | | aaa WH Jel 1 ly together. Mri “igren actually was | a i so we workéd very closely togetner. 8r. J1gr ly wa ae the supervisor of Mr. Brasko, who was the person who found : . i = | ; = | the Minsk photo graph, which is the only substantively new i ” = . . i e ; | = 20 | . m . ' : 5 ] - a 4 4 Y rn ; | thins that was orocucec the whole case. And, in A1S memo, at : host i this material of Golitzin was incorporated on the basis of ) my debriefinc a4 i . ; | Mr, Goldsmith. For the record, how co you spell | Golitzin? | aes oo mo2-T-N 2 to Mr. Rocca. G-0 -T-Z-I-N. : " fe oN FIDENTIAS y ; ALDERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 322763409 Page 30
i) CON PIDENTIAL 3 t { t { | Mr. Golcsmith. Now, earlier you referred in this 2 ; | Saragraph and in your testimony to the Minsk photograph. 2° Y " Mr. Pocca. Yes, ail uf Lye 3 4 a i Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, which photogrann are ~ ‘ . 1 4 you referring to now? ~ 4 Mx, Rocca. An. £7 il | _ i This is the phctccrach that shows Oswald in the checker = aif ns shirt, and it hac been either found down in that lady, that < Quaker lady's materials, or whatever it is. SB ¢ivision = | @ssignec an indivicuali, Brasko; to look ever every photograph 2 | in the DDI file in another part of the acency for here, ae > 144 ; i‘ 1 . i - i @ ! anc. that man, working Lunch hours -- and I say this with some = f heat because I sti 11 think this is one of the sicnificant = Te ii = HI ad yo : . : . = . . . = i contributions that has been unrecognized -- by looking at = | photographs submitted bv the Los Anceles office of CIA, . | = y cone by two ladies -- a os ! te | Be Mr. Goldsmith. Cramer and Namen. 28 | i | Mr. Rocca. -- he saw that shirt, that’s all he saw. al m | c | It was an incredible shirt of houndstooth checks. ~“That‘was it. Here we had positive proof that he was in Minsk and we At) ass i 242 ta , es . ; y1 z. @ we i@icn'=t have to go on anv kind of -- I nersonally -- that was ne oo ; . | one of the workinc level thincs that I hances over to hin. f Mr. Goldsmith. Is that the photograph that shows 24 .- |, Cswalé with a croup of other Pussians? , | i Cox F CSDENTIAL Doclda: 32263409 Page 31 ALOERSON SESCRTING COMPANY. INC Mu
CON FIODENTIALS 31 | i | t ! 1 | Mr. Rocca. And a car. | i . 21 | Mr. Goldsmith. In a car or. and a car? 24 - . ; ; ) ; | Mr.. Rocca... And a car -- because anywhere an American é a4 | i car went --- well, this I think may have been a Volkswacen, wo .l 5 =i. ; ; ne | ~ : it may’have been a German car -~there were groups, and this i 4 7 | was right in the plaza at Minsk, the main plaza. 2 tl | 7 i . . . S I Mr. Goldsmith. This is the photograph that was = | oreviéed by two American tourists? = i ~. oa Mr. Rocca. That's richt. But if you notice, the = i # Bureau redid the whole investigation.and there is no indication in the report that it came from CIA, WALTON, . ta < wt { But that's how it did it, and Mr. Brasko deserves — { . . ; @ z I |! = » highest praise. = ., ) wo | Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, would you spell his a isa. ¢ 1 name now? f . = ts 4 i = | Mr, Rocca. B-R-A-S-K-O. * i : 2 i Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why that photograph would |; = ‘So 7 . ; 4 . . i 5 : have: been taken by’ the domestic contacts Civision peonle, or , ‘ . 1 - ta | . ; 1 _ oo as . i a ie G - % 4 - i} whemever contacted those two women who took the photograph o < i . . | ' i in the first place? | a1) -Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, the photocgravch was > tt obtained oricr to the assassination. oN a Mr, Rocca. Many years Mr. Goldsmith. Many years prior to the assassination -> ~ wa tn CONFIDENTIAL Docld: 322763409 Page 32 ALDESSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
, CONFIDENTIAL ! 14 well, a ye or so prior to the assa lation. 2 | Mr. Rocca. A vear or two. i ® 3 Mr. Goldsmith. And at that time there Was ne narticulat ‘| interest in Oswald, I take it. ws i _ . . ; = $j So, co you know how that ~- rather why that photograph \ it 2 ¢ | was taken by the CIA officials involved? | S 7 | Mr. Rocca. Yes. — i 2 5 | It was one of a series of pictures turned in bv these al G | two ladies in the normal course of what is the authcrizeé ~ 0 4 mission of contacts di ivision, at that time located in the DDI, oS 4 = i} | of turning up useful foreign intellicence on -- by Americans, = i . 2 “st i = 32 weno volunteer. That oicture, on the extreme left, had a = iq , = 2 | crane in it, an industrial item, in which we were snecificallyv = i ” . “= 4 | interested. That was the way the mhotograph had been selected % } = 1s | That crane was cronred out when the picture was mublishec. * S| Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you. = ! oO | Phat clarifies an important issue fer us. is | Did the.CIA's effo to support the Warren Commission 300 7TH STREET, ‘Fo by providing the Com mission with relevant information reflect 2 : any working hypotheses? In other words, did the Agency say 7 oe a that certain areas were to receive primary emphasis? is a) a5 3 . 1 we oat Mr. Rocca, = can't sneas for all of these other i, 23. authorities that were in touch. I can sD eak: only for what -* | came across. es il DoclId: 32263409 Page 33 Our primary interest was in following up Soviet leacs CON PIDENTIAL NLDERHON RESCRTINS COMPANY, INC. aa na cee tances ep ee eee eee ee
33 " | vy ; ; n the assumpticnthat a person who spends four years in the | | : ., | 2 ) : ons = Le : : ‘ i Soviet Union, unter his circumstances, had-to be of specific i , ah ~ | interest to Soviet state security and their collateral authorities | | sq. , | | AS a consequence, we favorec very strongiy that’ the cuestions wo _ | | os . i that were to be delivered to the Soviet Union for response i i : S | a ran “ 7 shoulc include very specific incuiries with resvect to what zo co 7 <: . . : S | he cic --. not just this hospital record, as it turned out, ! a “| 135 vages of it -- but just exactly what he did. And, as far | : t H , : as I know, these were excellent cuestions. They, too, have: = i . : | - 6103 . : . = 44 ‘ B | been released. I nave not reviewed them. They would still 1 = ° i be useful questions’ to answer. co 3 2 The Reporter. Excuse me, but did you sav they have és u : ~ = } ox have not been released? = i a io Mr. Rocca. They have been releasec, so far as I know. | ce. i H S # Dam not sure of that. i - | There were three pages. i i Mr. Goldsmith. Okay, let's not talk about those questions. = cm , . . . } a “ My question is a generai one. ! . i = 134 i ~ yo Which areas receivec emphasis? | e { ; | an ! a 29 | a . a ; Mr. Rocca. The areas that we concentrated or tended to concentrate on were the Soviet areas because the us) eonle he H ! ‘ is ™ id iro) i i job in those earlier contacts. t | , t | was in touch with in Mexico had traces, prior traces, as | 2 | | | | KGB people. Thev were there under consular cover and obviously a) | | | coulé have been doing and were undoubtedly doing a consular 330: CcONPIDENTIALE ‘| ji Docld:32763409 Page 34 ; ALOERSOM REPORTING COMEANY, INC.
CONPIDENTIAL 34 Ou But. the whole picture rea i ‘ - . | in the context of that nortio . . . lo. j of KGB use of assassination, particularly the Gclitzin part | I | \ | | { | | | ‘ @ : | which was not specifically indicated to him, but which is | the cart stating that all U.S. military Cefectors are reviewed, “ a specifically by Department 13, which is new Derartment B -- : ~ | that part is Golitzin. He spoke from knowledge. I got it ~ | from him and I put it in the pnaver and we Gelivered it. am ad i = Mr. Goldsmith. Wes Department 12 the assassinations | oc Fh branch? ~ id 4 E i Mr. Rocca. That is correct; but it has other thines ba i to Go, too, includine sabotage and the vrenaration for @ a sabotage. So, the assassination thing should net be highlichte = i Mr. Goldsmith. I understand. zo, | . ! £ | Mr. Roeeca. I mean, I think this is, of course; when 2 , you get off the beam, when you start assuming that it nas to Ts = 13 | oe be -- : VF Mr. Goldsmith. You made the point verv.clear and we understand. What other areas,.if anv, received emphasis? (Pause): ae a = wn S zt = a) = ~ —d i= ia] tae Seid - Mr. Rocca. Other defectors that had cone to the nN i i i | Soviet Union and had: ‘been precessed in particular ways, his | G@ocumentation, his ability to travel and avoid internal | controls which were exceptional under the circumstances, ae i ; ae \ | reviews of books that were coming out. 4 CON FPTODENTIAL Docld: 322763409 Page 35 . ALEERSON REBORTINS COMPANY, INC.
CONFIDENTIAL "| 35 I Mr. Goldsmith. But again, the overall focus was on the Soviet connection? an ~ i: . @ Mr. Recca. I would say, on balance, that was, as it — | 4 | 4 Came out on our side of it. ‘ in ! os i ‘Mx. Goldsmith. Fine. w oa i ~ | I have another question, before I forget to ask you it, | & 7 | | ~ i) in reference to CIA number 1876. | = i That first naragraph says, “In addition, on sensitive Po matters of concern to the investigation, Dick Helms and Murohy’ = 16 | , : | = } also.dealt directly with the Commission.” = . 3 i Mr. Rocca. "hich was, of course, in the centrai. i. x i ! @ ee i Mr. Goldsmith. Tine. = | = iH Were there any other sensitive matters that you can : = * think of? = f Mr. Rocca. That's the only one that I know of. No. i = ' Let me say that this was a very nastily put together memorandum “a ow i - ané I did it realliysin order to have something on the record. 2 8 : ; i aoa 4 . . : 5 ly am Gelightec I did, too. I have no regrets. But it could = si . - | have been more ample. ; Se 49 | , - | Mr. Goldsmith. Did the Warren Commission give the eee . : : 1 “| Agency input as to what kine of information it wanted, what G27 22 4 5 re _ ! types of leads should be nursued? a3 hi i Mr. Rocca. Oh, ves. . ze | : . . : That was what I was coming to when you askec the other things that were done. . , CONFIDENTIAL { Docld: 3272763409 Paye 36 RTING COMPANY, INC.
invited in pieces of paper. , CONFIDENTIAL 26 t mm ; ” s fo For example, they wanted Cetailed. information with 2 | respect to how ne could have travelled. This was workad cut H . i i 2) - - =: : : : 1 : : : 3 : - | py SB Givision. There must have been other cuestions of that 4 i : 4 s a > z a ed 4 : 7) Kind that others at this stace ~-- if I had hee comprehension ws if a - | of what you were coing to ask me, I could have cone some of = wo 2 . . 1 ‘ + : - a 6 | my own homework. But it is right off the ton of my head now. ™ ‘ : cS 7 i + : . Smt : os te «= 7 | Mr. Golésmith. There is no neec. for specifics at = 24 this eoOint. ~ i Go? i “Mr. Rocca. I'm. embarrasseo that i can't think of manv = [!0 ) other things that we did. = fyoot - At Cr ed 7 at Te : * ee wr. Golasmita., Woulic. tae “arren Commission ga to w x | H ", ‘* # Mr. Helms recuesting the information, cr would: they go directly So ‘= td to you? = i oy Ta if ~ ‘ : at . no i Mr. Rocca. In some instances Mr. Rankin would go = 2°" Girectly to Mr. Helms. In cther instances, Mr. Slayvson would = ie j ‘ Sat 4G . 4 : 3 8 ran * : = ale rst tt . | come right in on-the norn and he was authorized to tai von A oaz | a . (i-Mr, Hall-or anybody in 2 & A about these metters. al ; . oe ta | + 1 4 h 41 7 2 = There were other meople -- there were otner peonia in wt H . { = i? a OD ‘ aad othe staff that nad.the same privilege. I can't remember wheth = 2 | rsapy < 4 DLiebler was one.. i AEE | Mr. Goldsmith. Did Mr. Helms, as a matter of routine, ~ mi fi : | aN. y} Pass on to you the Narren Cormission requests rer inrormetion?;. Hy . as il oo. i _— , Mr. Rocea. .Where it concernec us, I’m sure ne dic. 7 | The record shoulc reflect it, because these things were aw t iH { DocId:32263409 Paye 37 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. a of Ae
4 - © ' 4 a ” $ i wt } =>: ge: a ~ 3 LN oi : i = ws 2 i 3 | ~ . c > | ~ fos ~ | - } - i N : S30 ™~ i : o1 - yi - soe ' 10 VAST UC POPE, -+ to — : = 12 | = S ta | = § = ls id i te 4 = se i is | an i - t “ 7 | - | = i = i sd i n | = ra! = Foy ~ y i co i e 30 «| a er H i a1 u ote TREY nn 3 “o™N. } . th a2 || ov: | i 24 4 it s2 03 ash fe i i i Hi i it “i ; Docld:32763409 Page ‘to operations was which would 37 example, the whole matter of records and record was arranged at either by telephone call or by memorandum. . And we were able to. set them ur for an entire review of how the Oswald file nac.been machined, recorded, and how intelligence pertaining being computerized anc how Literally this should be tha way the rest of the community should function. So that, a whole pertion of that renort whicn reflects recommendations regarding the mechanization of records, reall; came out of what they Saw over there, Mr. Goldsmith. Which report are vou referrina to now? Mr. Rocca. The Warren Commission report, over here Goldsmith. Mr. “to, but the record needs to know. Do you feel that you were given by your superiors at. ‘the CIA all relevant information concerning the assassination 4 nave insured that the CIA could provide. the Warren Commission with all the necessary information that it, Fine. I understand what you are pointing in turn, needed? Mr. Rocca. I think so -- to the limit that they were infermecd and to tne Limit of my need to know. | Mr, goldsmith. Were you informed -- Mr. Rocca. Incidentally -- if I. may break in -- another | ScCCcNFIDENTIIAL 38 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
nD res) | a | = ~ N i! ' il a i ws 3 il ~N ' ~ | u = it 2 4 2 eit < i N i if yt _ f = i ~ id 4 on i” i fo) i Pes H = . i = rt = : %3 | ae - i @ = = ; > 134 | 5 ~ a = i = i roa] taj rei & js: a2 ws ft S i mail as : . { ~ i ~~ 1 a iva a : Bey i = ? ' gS 3] e { aed { = 135 P | ~ | ¢ a = ° a 20 H i : 1 aly ! oe : it a8 Aer it Bonar oot 44 || Sas 72 3 i a4 | ow . i i i Z4 | ; t adi ash t i i ; t i “4 1 | , | | CONFIDENTIAL 38 point directly involved in the Commission was the question oft the eighth Man ~~ you. know, this nhotograph of the man -- | Mr. Goldsmith. Tne Mexico mystery man? mix. Rocca. Yes, the Mexico mystery man. -Mr. Goldsmith. vie will get into that photogravh later on. Mr. Rocca. That was handled directly, too, and I arrangea it, I think, with WE people present Mr. Goldsmith. We'll get into that issue in a little while. . Were you'ever tole curing the time that vou were working as the Agency's point of contact with the Warren Commission about the Agencv's anti-Castro assassination plots? Mr. Rocca. Never. Mr. Goldsmith. A moment ago IT asked you whether you had been provided with all relevant information by your sureriors and I believe you indicated that vou thought that In your opinion, was the fact that the Agency had ct conducted anti-Castre assassination plots relevant to he Agency's -~ relevant to the Warren Commission's investigation of the assassination of Presiéent Kennecy? Mr. Rocca. This certainly was not staff responsibilit This was a responsibility of another cart cf the staff -- of CENFIDENTIAL Docld:32263409 Page 39 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
(202) S54-24n5 2N02% p.c, TON, > a WASUTME REPORTERS BUTEDING, aM, S 200 7TH STREET, _ Docld: 32263409 i cee) ta . a —<« - _— — ~t Os ta & to to _ Oo 4) oo on nw Be anether part of the CDDP. ty Ht o tr te A 39 I was not even aware of the Harker article having come out until much later. Mr. Mr. Mr. I was a point o would facilitate their investigation. that I Mr. me. i'm Mr ame had. assassination plots had nothing to basis of information that I had no should have ‘known everything. But not suggesting contradicted myself. I Within my limitations and need te know, I Goldsmith. By this you' Rocce. Yes. How can I judce my sunericrs on & + 0) neec to know? Goldsmith. Well, the question really aic. you have a neec to know that informetion? Rocca. Well, I was not investigating the th contact for the committee on matters that —en that's Geldsmith. Mr. Rocca, please don't. misunderstand that you should have known. Rocca. But you were pointing out that I had Gon't think I had. Goldsmith. Mr. Rocca, I didn’t even mean to sucgest that you had contradicted vourself. Mr... Mr... ‘here. Mr. Mr. 40 Rocca. I withdraw that, then. Golésmith. I am only trying to clarify the record Rocca. Yes. Goldsmith. After you indicated that you said you AL ren = x ScN FFDENTSI ALDERSON SEPOSTING COMPANY, pic. i i ‘You can argue, therefore | } i ! i i ‘ i
~~ As inal FS CON FIODEN IA | { | hac 40 | | receivec all the relevant information, my question was || €o you think that the anti-Castro assassination plots were 2: ‘ : : : : ” Y ) } relevant to the Warren Commission's investication? 4 | - o i Mr. Rocca. My feeling is -- my answer to that question’ a si a bY : 4 is that this is a political diversion and that no nclitical =. i action. -- "I am now speaking with 20~20 hindsidght -- that no = 7 | . | - political action undertaken cf the kind that has been Cescrihe ~ | and it has been cescribed in various Ways -- in anv case would . eit : : : ~ ii S | have justified action against the President. That I have to = i0 | o : 5 | regard, therefore, as a totally cifferent set of facts. _ tt 4 H If the Warren Commission had had it, I don't know what : i « - . . . : 4 : @ | they coulc have cone with it bevond what thev did, and thev = 12 | = | May have’ known about it. There is indication, at least voress = if ’ S = | references, that Warren did indeed knew and had been tole = 12: =~ Vig d = | about these things. cee oe = 1s A. i = | I can never say that Mr. Dulles, whe was aboard when wn Fy a” a i the Cuban thing started but ha@ left it, didn't talk about it “ # On @ personal basis. But in any case, I consider ita - : : . : e # political diversion. . In other words, attemoting -~- anything that was being AAO 4 * . 1 : os | attempted acainst Castro through low level agents and all the a 72 | ~ 43 | rest coesn't justify this kind cf activity of -- . { i 24 | Mr. Goldsmith. Assassinatinc President Kennedy. 42 5 i _ ne 4 Mr, Rocca. -- assessinating Presicent Kennedy. I think | the whole thoucht is outrageous. “ CONFIDENTIAL 3 et meres sos TING COMPANY. Docld:32263409 Page 41 ALEZERSON SERCRTING COMP INC
no ta whe da fon on oO TS — _ “Os th 300 7TH STRERT, SoU. RRPORTERS BUTEDTHG, WASHTNGTON, DLC. 20028 (202) S54-2305 _ aw ~ van fy “| fe SEF a eee uf as wot, an “3 “Mr. Golésmith. So, your vosition, then, is th even thougn the Acency may have been attemmptina to assassinate . ao t Premier Castro through low level agents, that would not justify a retaliaticn attempt; ny mr. Pocca. Retaliation -- absolutely, absolutely, absolutely . i j Na was . \ 1 . | Now, Mind vou, the Harker interview is a verv clear “ { indication -~ there is no question about it -- 7 x Mr. Goldsmith. Incication of what, sir? r. Rocce. That there were political ~-- that there were termi use Cuban interview this kind But I was Mr. assassinat emphasis, the assassi nal risks invoivec in versi exiles. iv understanding is, though, that that was considered by those people who were engagaced in: £ activity in the Acency and in the community not privy to it. Goldsmith. Had _* ‘you known about the anti-Castro ion plots, would you have given mere focus, more to the vossibility of a ‘Cuban::responsibility for nation of Presicent Kennedy? Mr. Rocca. I would have done it anywav, in view of the fact that he was in touch with the Cubans. | Mr. Golésmitn. However, lier when we asked vou -- : Mr. Rocca. It woulé have simply intensified that interest. The answer to your question is ve Docld:32263409 Pate 4? kinds of interest in CONPIDENTIA certainly there was all. INC. a mapa “™msane ALRERSON REFCRTING COMPANY,
| CONFIDENTIAL. | 42 | | | Cuban possibility. a . | | - Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Earlier, when I asked you.which areas | ce | @ | of the case ‘received’ emnhasis, I believe that you indicated | , ‘that on balence the primary area of emphasis was the Soviet wa H ° ~ i 7 + connection. a 6} ; { “ | ne - oom . bo . ~ “Mr. Rocce. That was certainly the one that I would | aad ' ! ~ | Say Gominated -- looking at it from my voint of view. ~ a: . i a in Mr. old mith. Now, hac you known about the anti-Castro c i assassination plots on the vart of the CIA, would you have given ~ 10: — i! . . . . . . 1 = | more priority, more emphasis, to the possibility of a Castro |, etd a a conspiracy to kill the President = ss 4 ' ~ eH i © i | Mr. Rocca. Again, I say that it would have simply = | ‘ ~ . i = 39 4 = i intensified it, that there was attention civen to it, not = tg | , Pa | particularily by the staff. I had no capabilities on th = is | i = ; Cuban side. = 3 5 = The crcanization of their service and their oneration “a ae ; : = | in Mexico was something entirely emtirely within -- it wes an | an . a mis 2 “ enigma at th 1e tim They. were Just agetting started. This was = sci = It 4} 7 a | < | ate aa mnie. Scott's ar 9f proficiency So < | WH's area. This was Win Sco S area of proficiency. S$ Se 720 | “o. { [se defectors had only begun: to come out anc they came out i ft @ eV jj later, the Cuban defectors. Te i | oO oN ! - ; : tt Vay on 3 I So, I can't -- I really can't say that (a) the Cuban 22 | : | ul , * : ‘ | connection was ignored, because it wasn't. The press was 26 fillec with it at the time. should have been undoubtedly given | ENTIAL TING COMPANY, INC. at oO vA as a tH o | it 4h i ‘i - | The Harker terview 's a : . 4 i :] -Docld:32263409 Page 43 . ALSESZSON AIFCA
if Od CONFIDENTIAL greater attention in a qeneralized sense: but it was caiven { | { ” es 2 . , . | specific attention, I was told at the time cf the Rockefeller | i 2 thing. { . $i ~ = care ; . 3 A : i :| Me. Golcsmith. In what way was the Cuban connection = Sui. . | 2 i investiaated? ' | ; i 5 . ; on am Mr. Rocca. = don't know. I don’t know this. That i ~ : . : | s | , = 7 side of the report strikes me as being inadequate. : S a; naa ae . - ; = it Mr, Goldsmith. Well, when I said te what extent was “ the Cuban connection investiaqatec, I don't’mean by the ra \ - xt en cen _ . : Loss = | Warren Commission. I mean to what extent Cid the Agency = i provide -- - > oy _ t Myr. Rocca. That I can't answer. I certainly didn’t @ = 33 || e 3 4 Go it. ! a! Mr. Goldsmith. Pardon me? = ae Mr. Rocca. We certainly dicn't, in R & A. co 13 : ut MAT AA th fal CT/® & A AIA t __ i ~ } mY. GOLASMLTA. Doo, — - x © A G21d no : ~. i - | Mr, Rocca. Go into the Cuban sice of it at all. z iS: . . ' : . i 5 | This was something left to the veonle who were concerned a specifically with Cuban intelligence and security operation. - | Mr. Golésmith. But I believe earlier we established ! . | ' Ka that Mr. Eelms gave orders that information nertinent to the | oN | assassination was to co throuch your office, correct? wv , ~ : 4 Mr. Rocca. Yes. : | Mr. Goldsmith. And cnce information pertinent to the : ant | . . 1 . . _ + ow : assassination went through vour office, . I take you or Mr. : is Docld: 32263409 Paye 44 ALDERSOM REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
nw 4 ind a] a - ™ | wo ve] fe] a ~ ' a 7 ~ a - found 3 = ™ . a Loy 4 S c SS - wd « = of 1 o tS = ©} tesore 34 S ts = = i <o9 = ro .. = 13 S = 16 => un 17 o 5 os ’ ow) i in - - = 1S ~ Cc Ss 20 ; a1 Peta cal a! She . ce eee Wher / ka og oN an ow Ww in a. i i re ih CONFIDENTIAL Helms woulc. decide what information woule be relevant for the warren Commission to see. Is that correct? Mr Recca. Well -- ‘Mr. Golcsmith. Based upon what vou knew? Mr. Rocca. Well, everything would ge, ves. Mr. Goldsmith. Therefore, you were in the vosition, would seem, to know what information was be . et ng generated Q {-- in the field that was going':to the “Warren Commission. BRariier I asked you which area received emphasis and i I believe vou indicatec that the Soviet area. ry v {e) Q Q @ ae] K f4 =f oy K ja t-4 = 6) my ua gy ren] Ky } 4 hg id G ct bed didn't mean by that that it excluded the Cuban, decause there was a lot of material that came threucgh anc went to the Commission that concerned thre Cubans. ‘(Discussion off the record.) Mr. Golésmith. Let's continue. Mr. Rocca. My recollection is that at the time the great press manifestation was that Cuban exiles who were in % ‘touch with CIA had been somehow involved in this. This was the great concern. Mr. Goldsmith.. That's another nossibility. There are different -- Mr. Rocca. Questions went down to WH: do you nave a YQ) A aS | IBENTIAL Docld: 322763409 Paige 45 ALDERSON FEPORTING COMPANY, INC.
ES tye 3N0 7TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUTLDING, WA (202) $5u-23945. 2024 ne, HLHGTON, ¢ ~~ ] a. ~ Oo — m tn On ~ ~I os “aa om ‘acequately investicated? Ut CONFIDENTIAL 4 anybocy who could possibly have cotten involved in this 1S There was extraordinary ciligence, I thought, exercis ‘tir. Golesmith. De you think that the possibility of an assassination plot by Castro against the President was & (Pause) - Mr. Rocca. With the advantages of 29-29 hindsight, I ct an seems to me that could sav vrobably not. But at the time i they gave cue attention to it -- within the information that I had at my disposal. Mr. Golésmith: teow that had you known about the anti-Castro assassination plots, the effort would have been intensified. Is that a fair statement? Mr. Pecca. - Well, I would have -- certainly I think. it would: nave been intensified. Everythine would have been “intensified. a complete ta) 3 ¢)] cr rom fe} un or ay 3 3 W +] @ Pu I think in the licht o different procedural. apsroach probably would and should have ‘been taken. I mean, there are any number of things that you can say in the light of history. What I can't accept is that leads were deliberately or otherwise ignorec. TONPIDENTIAL Docld:322763409 Page 46 . SLOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. ed { fr. Recea, I also think that vou indicat
Presigent Kennedy, but simoly was providing information to the} CONFIDENTIAL a Mr. Goldsmith. When dic vou first learn of the 2 i - anti-Castro assassination plots? i . H 2 : toa © - 4 Mr. Rocca. There were rumors of these activities | 4 { . . * ' |} in the mid and late ‘'6C's. | 2 ‘The first significant indication that I had that there | a | “a . . . i “ 6 was Castro appreciation of an actual plot was the reference | « / | to-the Harker article in the Mexico Citv case log, which we = - hac accessioned for the file sometime in the iate ‘60's, after | i] ( : i wo. | -! 3 it . - 1 : qe : a: . . H = ” ; Win Scott's death, when Mexico Citv shipvecd its documentation |. ~ in) z IC | up here. = oo t . a eae : - 1 | an i Mr. Goldsmith. Are you familiar with Book 5 of the tS Senate Report? et i Mr. Rocca. No. H { . 2 ‘ : : H a | Mr. Geldsmith. Of the assassination plots? rat ‘ i = $3: _.. . = IF _ Mx. Rocca. No. ne aa . . . . a . : . IS | Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. ‘tle will defer that till later a7 | - 1 on, then. 5 i 7 a | Mr. Rocca. I got the Harker report mvself and studied | ~ lat at the Library of Congress in the course of the work that Ss 20} a: : : ° |} — @id-for the Rockefeller Commission. ee if Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Rocca, again, for the: record, I iN" | would like to be clear on this. | : i Is it your position that the Agency itseif did not ‘+ conduct an investigation, per se, into the assassination of ~ 1 . ‘ J ? 1 th Docld:32263409 Page 47 ALDERSON REPORTING COMEANY, INC.
4 i 1 i | i 2 2 6 / | | ot - 1 “ = = | N § ’ “| = w , \ w 4: o i & 7 | L - fi = . 4 < 5 5 | y . a 1 3 3 i . ty a WASILUGTON , ry i 4 i H 4 ra} ba - 4 te it = L oy 1 i . a le Hi = Hq = | ” is yj a " =< i < “ = Hi we « 1S nF =" i ~ i z i8 o yO, n 1 = 13 | = i ~ ! a 20 | { t a1 eo .! ~ " LN AE £2 an i i 435 -s i 24 i 25 -possibleé responsibility CONFIODENTIA PLOVisicon of intelligence information, not an investigation. Yes. Mr. Rocca. No, I am not. Mr. Goldsmith. I would like vou to L 11904 and 1905, which is a letter dated April E. Henry Kncche -- K-N-QO-C-U-E -- from David 3 ny f. Director of the Rockefeller Commission.: (Pause) + Ce Tat “Mr. Goldsmith. Are vou able to be more sneci My. Rocca. I think our role was basically the ' es for the assassination? - - Belin, My. Goldsmith. Mr. Rocca, do you. know whether etter was ever referred to you for action? for response. B} Girectly to Mr. Belin in conversation -- th Ou al . a wrote that was referred to me. It CON FIDENTIA ALTERSON REPORTING COMPANY, IN Fic at ail as to what effort was made to examine the question of Castro's Executive IAS c.slS ‘By action, I mean Mr. Goldsmith. Nould you now review C (Pause) Mr. Recca. Now you're taiking. here. + a is, « Mr. Rocca. I €o not, thouch I know I responce There was some other kind of letter which Mr. s number Mr. Goldsmith. So, according to CIA number 19 substance Belin ‘much shorter than this. 1934. which vou have just read, I believe it indicates that you,
j Mr. Rocca. I indeed remember responding to this. 2 @ | But this thing seemed utterly -- é i . | ; ; | Mr. Goldsmith. But you weren't sure if vou had done ws aa . = s i : w |i . . . ~ | so oraliv or in writing? 5 all w oy. . =i 8 _ a. . - oo . . . : _ i Mr. Rocca. Oh, no. This is -~ if: I wrote: this (indi-: c 7 | : a | cating), 1 must have had -this (indicating). = if & 3 | < | ‘So, I accept. I withcraw my previous statement. _ Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. = ! Sc | In light of Raving read CIA number 1934, a 4 ‘ = 1 i — abog .: ~ = i Mr. Rocca. This is wnat I recall. “ : = ts il | : . ta : es ~ a i But there is still another memo. You see, I wrote = two memos for. nim. Are you aware of that? Zo | tat g i (Pause) = 34 . - _ . ; S ; Mr. Rocca. I wrote two memos for Mr. Belin. Zach bat i — at ~ lihad a letter which enjioinec me, actually, to do it. Thev were “v1 i 7 . 2 from him. = | (Pause) = ts | an eS IF - = Mr. Rocca. I know there was a seconca memo. o - + . The memos are complementary, but concern different t : Ati eee > sam et : + va Dose ilaspects of the subject. @ 2: —_ | Mr. Goldsmith. Were they -written at the same time? Mr. Rocca. They were written in succession ana i oo torew out of his interest in the Cuban connection. a2 5) aa ft i i d Docld:32263409 Paiye 49 ; 1a. es j in fact, respondec to | my vagueness the letter of Anrii 15, i975. ct about this probably crows ou CON FITOENTIAL ALDERSOM REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 4§ ! | | 1 f ' i \. i i { i ' | t i i i i i i | | |
CONFIDENTIAL 49 fact that there was a succession of memos. This.one seems. n lH Longer than the one that hea. But if I refer to it, i 1 { i . . - — cbviousiy. | ; 4 : Mr. Goldsmith. Drawings vour attention to paracranh = gS. . ‘ 3 ~ jInumber two, would you respond to the questions that are raised ‘| = 1 i “ Shin that paragraph? « - i : : | CS 7 | + a : : a Mr. Rocca. T would sev that as far as I know, the ‘ = 4 | = 2 | answers are negative. I certainly didn't -~ because I didn't | “ i gd oF Il ‘ iknow. = ine i : nm 2 - 4.4 » y . : in on ’ | Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, because you didn't knovw = old = jcof the anti-Castro assassination plots. | ” igi -@ 2 4 x ! .* Mr. Rocca. tT couldn't have told them. Ff couldn't Rave: Co 1 [ @ = 13 | & ltold them. - ! a i Mr. Goldsmith. Is it your position that the questions | Gc e ° 4#posecd in paragraph number two are answered in the negative? | | | | _ - | Mr. Rocca. These have to be enswered by others who “ 17 iH » : © > 2 : * TA =t 2 lwere in the chain of command and who would have had the ao Be TS yo. ; e . information. — \ re) i + = iy - A . . | =~. } - Mr. Goldsmith. Now let’s take a look at 1934, CIA S 4 o 20 1974 i number 12354. According to that decument, it indicates that you ' { end, avs 1 IAN He i i jare responding to the questions raised in paragraph numoder three 22 | oe | iof the Belin letter dated April 15,.1975. : a | 24 | | : 4 Do you recall ever being askec to responce to the ay . . iquestions in paragrapns number two and four? i” . : a * . bo , CONFIDENTIAL fe Docld: 32263409 Pate 450 ALPERSON SEBORTING COMPANY. INC.
2 aif = | a —- < ' = - | N~ -if ‘ iy = : a , | w 3 yo s 4 = - = 74 ~ i . | a 3) c - oy ‘ i rand i = 19 4 = 2 = iyo = i 2 i > - i @ ia = vi qa fs: = iH = i =e 4 il a i he i jai il ~ 1s 4 = = 3 i : = 144 _ i n FT 300 7TH STREET, wd a) oe ~ a 2 2 DoclId: 322763409 Page 51 CONFIDENTIAL 59 (Pause) Mr. Rocca. No, nor one. The only one that I hed any vossibility of ressonding on the basis of my knowledge or the possibilities that I had in research was this: and this is where the -- of course, thi is the Harker followup of the public speech. Mr. Goldsmith. When adic you first learn from an Agencv source, if ever, that the Agency had been involved in anti- Castro assassination plots? Mr, Rocca. Very :late to it. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you assassination plots at the time reviewed by you -- in other word Mr. Rocca. No. No. Tf I read, as I recall, Des visit to Paris when I delivered Rr + I can't attach an exact cate know of the anti-Castro that this letter was S, in April of 1975? iil don't knew of them. Fitzgerald's report of his Mr. Goldsmith. When you delivered which report? -Mr. Rocca. One of the two that I am talking about now. Mr. Goldsmith. The memos? Mr. Rocca. Yes. Now, chat had. just been found at the time. Mr. Goldsmith. When did you say you retired from the Agency? Mr. Rocca. In 1374 I was on contract at this time. CON PIDENTIATL ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC.
‘ i 300 aT STREET, S.A. REPORTERS BUCLDING, WASHEMGTON, B.C. 29024 (202) S5u~2945 ‘4 C2. /y3 fe ABS 4 is Docld: 322763409 it du ; Sl | it { i ty ~ . . Mr..Golesmith. Soe, during the time that you were working i , i 2 . .. co44 ; j with the Reckefeiler Commission for the Agency, you were on i . t 21 ! | contra act? i i. : 7 | Mr. Rocca. Yes. i. Are we clear on that? ; ian Mr. Goldsmith. -And at that time -- af | | | | Mr. Rocca. Des Fitzgerald's letter, which is the kev -+ iT went to Paris, 1 talked with -- "I Mr. Goldsmith. AMLASH. Mr. Rocca. AMELASH, exactly. AMLASE, ; 4 This letter turnec up. It was found Ay a WH researcher, 12 t : : ‘ -— 8 ja WH man at that time. This was 1975. | ! | 13! - . . : } H And so you were asking me earlier how could I be sure |. | - | that everytaing hac been cGelivered to tne staff. Yeu see, I “ tmean, it's just not possible to take the resvonsibility. Of 16 | . : : s i | course it wasn't. That letter had never been seen by me. - | Mr. Goldsmith. That was just another example of i . ? H ; i 13 | . a ie janti-Castro slot information that was net brought to your “yattention? H 20 | | Mr. Rocca. Des Fitzgeraicd, it is well Known, very iclosely associated with the Kennecyvs in politi al action anc ; at : : : 13 o ithere is no question but that he had total leg itimacy in I undertaking what he was Coing. | Mr. Goldsmith. I am not questioning the legitimacy. ac i i naw 1 : iI.am onlv questioning whether you had the information. i 7 i ce ON FIDENTIA : i Paye 52 ALDERSON REPORTING CCMFANY, INC.
a nw de wt a <i N af | iH = ud w a } w 7 H 4 ™ i ~ ft = 7 = i x a i Font - if i n i] i i . a i o 7 | = | ~ id: = i = Hi °S i = j = fli = I w it x it = 30 tego - di cS : T= ca = 3h aed it = i = ! = a tat i io . a ui x it = Us S = 16: . 1 ane i - ! mT - } 1 Se i A | - 2 3 = : e = ov ice) ‘ @ i * fT | \ at i d a n HI : 4 | i Docld:322763409 Page 53 . ALOCERSON REF CONFIDENTIAL ~ Mr. Rocca. I am using “lecitimacy” in quotes; too. Mr. Goldsmith. Is it vcour position that -- He ig Oo Q Q iW) he K (D 3 ) <3 _o (() by ct ts FH w | ed | cr (Tv bY 0) CV @o ct o a te QO {4 wy rs 4 3 i (+ is ce 4) p) ia} in cr oD lia} (t t 0) important. Sc I am able to responce. IT th: L wm th. Mr. Goldsmith. In light of th ation available 0) te 3 th oO a to you today, are you able to respond to the. questions posed in peragraphs two and four? . Mr. Receca. Not for myself. lf, I can say no to all of them. hy (@) hy he a @ Well, let me read them first. I think tha t would be a Mr. Goldsmith. You are referring, for the recora, to Mr. Rocca. Did anyone with the CIA tell any member of cr yx @ t | ‘Mr, Goldsmith. No. Reac paragraph two only. Mr. Rocca... "There is evidence that Castro, prior te 22nd.Februarv, ‘63, knew about the existence of such plans ané the possible involvement of the U.S. Government, anc that S the CIA at any time prior to the completion of the Warren’ -- “have any documents or other information indicating that Castr ake r may have known about such plans. If tne answer is ves, would you vlease furnish us with copies of ali such cecuments and | Getails of any such information." CONFIDENTIAL su ORTING COMPANY, INC.
ty Fa 3 H by “— mn Ww CONFI D 1 I would have to answer negatively. I do not know 3 | 7 - 1 1 | 2 Mr. Goldsmith. And now, paragraph number four. Mr. Rocca. “Prior te Wevember 22, 1363, several months | oe = na - i , - oy . . - Y fprior to the assassination®™ ~-- _ Mr. Goldsmith. No. tr. Rocca, clease read paragraph fo, = F - pumber four now. You are on three. = Mr. Rocca. ““ould you clease advise us if there is Pa 3 | = jlany information that woulc seem to indicate that at any time =. Iprior to. November any foreign governments or any forei¢cn croup G a : = oni , | 5 was considering the possible assassination of anv American 7 Sl _ ig i . - > - . ‘e te Wleagers. If so, woulc you please advise us of all the cetails.” = i I would answer no. I know nothing about that. Zoe | % i Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Rocca, you have indicated that this i = i : Ps eo : = is i ; oo ; _ = wletter was given to you to respond to ~~ I take it in 1975. = iAnd, in fact, a memo was prepared by you responding to -- oo Mr. Rocca. One paragraph. Re | a Mr. Goldsmith. One varaaradch. = isi . , ~ te | . . . - Mr, Rocca. But, as I say, I have the impression = : - “ { : 20 | - that these topics were outside of mv area of knewlecge. a1 , SS a: . . . Aa | Mr. Goldsmith. Did the Agency respond to the cuestions | hat were posed by Mr. Belin? 23 | | Mr. Rocca. As far as I know, I cannot -- as far as Ii They may Raves. Mr. Goldsmith. .$o, you think that vou -- CONFIDENTIAL. 3 Q 2 IH Ou fan 3 oO ct a — me me as ' ALIDERSON REPORTING SCOMEANY. fc. DoclId: 32263409 Page 54
; . CONFIDENTIAL 54 Mr. Recca. Belin was in touch with evervbodyv, sc he > i H ai : La - ao ; ! a Mr. Goldsmith. Se, do you think that you were given a j for 5 soe: : . : i “| Letter and asked to responc just to one paragraph in it? | u ' 2 - i . i 2 ~ 4 -Mr, Rocca. Or to respond more cenerally to the question 1 iy . { “? - i . 3 c 3 wv © fof the background of Cuban Fnowledge. They were not so specific S + | . . = . Lis ; . . } S ‘las this, because if I hac receivec this as a basis, as a brief,! t . : = q i a 2 . ; . ‘= ‘. I would have had to.research it. You see, I would have had to | ~ . ~ , i 1 . 1 ~ " do, then, and ask people. This would nave been net only — ta od . - i = ‘~ J presumptuous, but it would have taken vears. i z i = Pro . : ‘ = "oR Mr. Goicsmith. That problem now that appears in the => 14 i . . i - *  recora is that there was a letter that was given to you to i = a | @ ae } resrond tc, anc we have the responses to paragraph number three! = ta : . ! a | of that letter. It would aopear that you were asked to x iF ! el i! ‘ = ‘* !respond to a letter that you did not have ail of the complete = i = + i }information with which to make a croper response as to the 5.8) - jentire letter. | ~ i : ' pas} ta) : = a Mr. Rocca. Yes. But my answer doesn't say that I t H ~ - i = ? . : . ! = Inae the oricinal letter. It says that it responds to a paragraph a 20 . . . ; ; ° lot it. I may have been shown it and used it as a point of a} | no , reference. a: . . i @ | Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. a2 | Mr. Rocca. With Mr. Belin, I had hours of conversations lacross the desk in the most amicable fashion in which he luncerstooc precisely mv feelings and how they hac matured over CONFIDBDENTIAS,. | u H it 4 4 if | Hu : ALDERSOM REPORTING © TIMEANY, INC. Docld: 32263409 Page 455
CONFIDENTIAL 5 | ythe years with respect to these needs.. And the first thine ener tne nat anamnestic en (SY aM, | 2 | I wOouLc Aave toia him would have bean that to answer-those 3 | questions would have taken cricinal research, and the people he . “ naa te gc to were the peonle who were in Lt. : < ¢ h h . 4 i ;. £ 73 8 4 | 5 2 i Anvway, that is the best cf my recollection at this | ™N be i i i i = | ow. | moment. ~ | ~ m4 } = an Mr. Goldsmith. Please refer to CIA number 19490 and | ~ | ; . ; \ = of ; ; | = 3 tread Section B, which continues to the next nage. bo. i so FG (Pause) - ! | = io qd. Mr. Goldsmith. Woulé vou like to identify the entire |; S HI ~ " 5 | ; | = of | document that vou are looking at, starting with CIA numper 193€? = i = 12 | Mr. Rocca. Ah, ves. | a 73 | This is the response that I wrote for him. | = 4 jj Mr. Goldsmith. Mow, there again, just a moment, in aay i : . + 5 i = '3 iCTA number 1936, the reference is to the Belin letter dated cS i { = 18 25 April, 1975. Acain, that suggested, in fact, that vou saw | cS a — Mr, Rocca. “ell, it would be in the fale out there , i ™ ne ce @ a ct @ Kh Qu fe) D | a r fo) ct be) Jif it. is. But certainly the letter consists of much more than 300 7TH STREET, | 20 IZ. could respond to. Thank God I am stili talking about | | . | i t “paragraph three -- right? ya Mr. Goldsmith. “Yes. Let's take a look -- i Mr. Rocea. In other words, I'm sticking oretty closely | as leo waat I know, or to what I think I know. | 2 Mr, Goldsmith. Let's look at CIA number 1940, the page, : : : CONFIDENTIAL i ALOSRSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC Docld:32263409 Paye 56 ALDSHSON REPORTING COMPANY, IN
; CONFIDENTIAL committee a statement as to what vou meant by that sentence 4 : “ . . . . a . , ~ 4 Mr. Goldsmith. You indicate that the Warren Commission . ald - ul . a - |Report should have left a wider window for this contingency, ' i . = :| Ww : . 1 a jana I believe you were makina reference to -- = - | = ri Mr. Rocca. Foreign conspiracy. - H ~ a. ¢ 74 Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. ~ | = . Mr. Rocca. Forelan consriracy. - i _ = 1 Mr. Goldsmith. I understand. = 41 | 1 . : : = i What did you mean by that, ane why? w3 ! . ay A = 14064 . a . . . '* i Mr. Rocca. It wovld take literally a whole day to co al tt . a a ee ; no! Mr... Goldsmith. Whv don't vou try to summarize it, Ss ©” #1£ possible. 7 S| Mr. Pocca. Well, I doen't want to acpear impertinent, nn iz : ; . - . —— - ‘’ but as “Mr, Feims said in his Cevosition, the case will never = ype closed, and I regard that as reallv being the key, the logic 5 a i Mr. Goldsmith. Woulé vou be willing to prepare for the e . : , = 2 | i) —e in CIA number 1941? ®) “4 ft AG bb res) Mr. Recca. Well, I woulé vorefer to tell you, to talk aa) to you about it, rather than to prepare a decument. ~ Mr. Goldsmith. I would prefer to listen to you discuss: it row. But if it is going to take an entire day, we can'= co cONPTIODENTIAL 4 Docld: 322763409 Page 5? SLOERNSIN SEPOSTING COMPANY, INC.
it il REPORTERS BUFEDTNG, UALHTRGTON, ‘+ any foreign intelligence or be. false and that there i * that view that he was a wes no credible evidence +t this could not . CONFIDENTIAL 57. : ! | ‘ |that right now. i . | 2 | Mr. Rocca. Well, it would take loncer than that to writ i an . | e 3 pity so I think we ought to just discuss it -- though I’m not | | an + [adverse to the other, it would really recuire the oreparation ! = + }0f a monograph. | a i | ! ~ ae Please, as best you can, realizing the time constraints, S 2 ibriefly summarize what you meant by that sentence. ! ~ i SF Hw Mr. Rocca. First of all, let me say that to Mr.Belin | = i i9 ypersonally in the talks I made it sxerfectlyvy clear that I : '! lregaré ¢ the theory that Oswald was a mandated assassin by '3 ‘be done on the basis of the available evidence. or as I refer | | ' &o it here, credible evidence. Indeed, I recarded it as very ; - 5 : “a oil . ; | , ‘! @angerous and counterproductive -- if I. can use that term -- to: - ‘ = g néulge in public conversation along those lines, because it = '* jleads inevitably to political consecuences. wnich are absolutely : oc 30 | : = ** ikmpossible to control. i ee So, I don't believe, in other words, in my vtersonal . ty SNS . : Shes 37 . . ao . oN iew of the case, in the vosition that I helc in which I ao , , perated with the Commission that he was sent to kill Kennedy. i frowWwer, I do believe that he had contacts with the Soviet ~ intellicence, or I think the evidence is roncer anc certainly i Docld:32263409 Page 53
a | i 3 ” | = sj ~ i 1 i a . | Mo So; - 1 N i c od | a {I S 3 S a ne i a 7 | | a “ A i a4 a i = it = ti! ony i E H 2 fF = ~” ta US WUPTEBING, a tS L iN ' . wt ? i ! = 13) be \ a | = 1% | = 36 | Fe) S| 4 a . t M27 12: vos, 1 , It H} a ' i ram 4 th ac i aw ' i fi Docld:32263409 Page 59 * be -Union and that the contradictions, therefore, between what on this -- I don’t care whether you call them, whether they -whatever happenec. Therefore, we cot no answers. And, they CONFIDENTIAL ‘worth following up, that he had contacts with the KGB, both inside and orobably outside. I'm not saying in the United states, necessarily, but before his arrival, with the KGB, first. . Seconda, that the Soviets did not furnish us all of ae the relevant documentation pertaining to his stay in the Sovie tA au they served up through the Swiss and wnat we have derived from people who have come out of the KGB, who are exrerts are Nosenko, or Deriabin or Golitzin, whoever. -- the reople ; t i t in.the other service there -- there is a manifest contradiction between the amount of material that they furnishecé and what would have been normally his experience in that country in respect to that service, and in particular with regard to the | element of contract and debriefing by the "Snetsctdei", but the 13th Department, bv the Cpeciali Department. s 4 i i The questions that were furnished the Commission alonda: those lines were not delivered by the State Department, or served to deepen, therefore, the importance and the occasions £ of what I’ve just said. In the third place, the neople, fortunately or unfortunately, casually or otherwise, that he was in touch with in Mexico City during his trip, were KGB, according to CON PIBENTIATL ALZERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING.
CONFIODENTIAzZ 59 { 1 re : the traces hela by us and by the FBI and other services. i Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall which people these were?! i Mr. Rocca. .I can't -~- IT could. probably get them | | . | en) . | out of my mind.. = af Fy . _ » . = 2 ~ il Mr. Goldsmith. Please nroceed. : i : a . | “ ° |i Mr. Rocca. It is absolutely patent that these reople soy | g | could have been cealing with him and possibly were dealing with = i Sg 4 an ; : ; . = “i him. I cive, in other words, full faith and credit to all “ | these theories, and I'm taiking now in a counter intellicence | aan i ! = woo . . : : : = i laboratory sense, not in a public sense. His whole comportment S i = ty 5 . e - , ’ . . 4! = ‘i as an individual in the United States after his arrival I find = o:2 | ; ; ; oe os _ - 7 y very peculiar fer its implicit and explicit.evidences of @ = 12 i , | | an to: Peery : : = | Clandestinity. ~— t n i Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give examples. ‘ 2s f : = 1s u aa : . . . . . . ‘ S "4 Mr. Rocca. The utilization of aliases in boarding = is i. 22 4 : : 1 5 : . | houses, incomplete detaiis to his own wife, the whole matter | ~ i it of the "Walker" and what she says, and Marina is a whole other, as . story that has: to be, I think, readjusted to this scenario. “al On the other hand, I see flaws in his clandestine, ON TTH SPREE, a 29 roe] -— in his trade craft, let’s put it that way. It makes me him as just one of those things. ASS 606i believe that he may not have been at the time that he was © b=5 -- | - ) ga cperating in Dallas and in the other area an actual, even i in touch with them, because I recard not giving his wife his | 2 | . . 4 alias at the boaréing house so that when she phoned she blew ; ' i CON PIDENTIATL Docld: 322763409 Paiye 60 ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC.
But Toh CONFIDENTIAL an mo i i have gone over all of this in great detail with ji ; “ . 4 : . Laas + | Belin. fo, I see these things, I see these things as building | nn 3 ‘ = . =) | a -@ picture of much more detailed knowledge about him, and | | @ | | ‘| evaluation, and, of course, debriefing, because there is no | il a 2-4 guestion in my mina that he had U-2 information cn exact tyne! 3. $i of flight. | ~ ' | a 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. What about on the Cuban side of the | > I | = 24. picture? .- a ‘ a : - H ro 5 | ‘Mr. Rocca. And, on the Cuban side, from Delgado we ‘ » oa ; . . 2 : = '!% | know he was a pro-Cuban from the bhecinning, and the ado = | ABformation 1s critical -- I think cuite undeveloredc in its Fe | ~ if i implications. C | _ ’ i . . : . ‘ . : 4 . t c na Se, it is this kind of thing that lies behind leaving | “ 7 y. the wincgow open. In other words, there would be information | fue < . . ; z lS Levant to an assessment of this man’s motives as a self a ie activated killer in an incredible conjunction which finds him ' in i in a building which is gcing to be passed by by Connally, ! 8 {| against whom he has a personai quarrel, going back to the whole | 7a i 390 7TH STREET, ) matter, of his Navy career, and this 30 | so: . . 20 he could have reac in the "Times Picavune” about “SE i interview, the warning, end se forth. MY 4 ym “iy I regard this, in other words, this man, , generated killer, who could very well have done thi | that doesn't mean that there isn’t intormation, it ““ 4 Moscow, but also in Havana. But, as I said, this i ‘ CONFIDENTIAL : | Docld: 32263409 Paye 61 ALSERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC whole business of what not only in x the Harker as a selt \ But is a thi ne '
~ is ! t | 2 t on ~ | @ 1: i w | ~ 7 iD a , | wn 6. \ ~ oo | e 7 I N . I ~ A : x a ii eS fol i a i i oF | ‘ 4 = | = i 5 : == ppt eof | 4 > a ot = +2 j i 4 4 t ef REPORTERS BULLDING, Us, ov s si on 300 FT STREET, _) o~ oa ay is 7 ™~. + &. pe wa an th Docld:3272763409 Paye ONFIDENTIAL thet I would have loved to have known more about way tnhat.I know, or was becinnins to or Cuba, the DGI’Rezidentura, better (pegced) and have heen in the rosition to have verhars gotten Silvia Duran in a -situation where she would have had to answer. Mr. Goldsmith. I'm sorry. I didn't understand “exactly what you said. Mr. Rocca. But these -- Mr. Golcsmith. Mr. Rocca, if I. may interrupt vou minute, what did vou say you would have tried to have had better neaged in Havana? Mr. Rocca. The organization of Cuban intellicence - Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Mr. Rocca. -- as a personal matter. I mean, after all, these are matters of perscnal expertise. In this caper TI am speaking entirely as an incenendent expert. Mr. Goldsmith. By this paver you are referring to CIA number 1934? Mr. Rocca. Yes, what you are talking about. And in the transmission memo, the Agency makes that very clear. Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. Mr. Rocca. Sc please, let's make this point. CGNPIDENTIAL ALDERSON REPORTING COMPAR’. INC. On in the I know -- even at chat time I was no expert. = don't sav I am now, but the KG we would certainly have had that RezicGentura + down in Mexico, i |
T understand. i § 4 i i t 4 5 i H H { { 4 , CONFIDENTIAL ‘4 Mr. Goldsmith. Were Oswald's contacts ~- i a : Mr. Rocca. You know, in othex words, this is right i ce @ | off the top of my. head. H 4 Mr. Coldsmithn. In other worcas, the Agency gave you a,! 2 ~' asked you to respond to Mr. Belin's letter which requested A iy “  * | certain information and the Acency’s position was that your ~ "| response was off the top of ycur head? { S28: . as ; | = | Mr. Rocca. They said that this did not necessarily ; | . | reflect the Agency's views. There is another viece of paper = } | = id | By a : i] 5 . 7 7 | S i that says that, and I’m sorry, I gon't think that that isa z : ° ' = i preper qualification of it. - 42 4 . . : . : i There is a transmission memo which says that we don't cc ' . @ = 13 | = i necessary -- it's been released, I think. zou | ad £ a " Mr. Golésmith. The Agency put you on contract to = ois | . z 1 work with the Rockefeller Commission. a i = 16 | - | Is that correct? , : i Mr. Rocca. No, thev cidan't...I was uncer contract as = 4 & i a vart of my normal phasing out ana this came up as a mn | - ~ = oii = i part of that. = 30 | - * : My, Goldsmith. What were your resronsibilities with | H Hi Bese | the Rockefeiler Commission? ~ yak <~ { _—_ | Mr. Rocce. Simply to make myself useful, I suppose. i - = h i But this was not. the specific reason that the contract was 244 | given. i a it ‘y Docld:322763409 Page 63 ALSERSOM av PIDENTIAL REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
ts ae oe | 3 i 1S i oo ~e 8) t i | i ‘ d H ! | { - : 4 q JON ITH STREET, SLU. REPORTERS BULLDING, WACUTUGCTON, DLC, 20024 (202) S5n-2905 | | | | | | | fl i ~. Steed 7 ALE! bad ng , 4 Ww ft 23 | 26 | id rh aso { ' ‘| DoclId: 322763409 Paye 64 Mr. Rocca.. dy. This is what Goldsmith. Were you 63 I'm trving to. clarify. the Agency's point of with the Rockefeller Commission? | My. Rocca. No, no. As far as I know I wasn't. They were in touch with the legal €ounsel)-- I mean, the Inspector General. Thev sat there. They came to the stat to get the material. They had the entire file. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if Oswald had anv contacts with the DGI element in Mexico Citv? Mr. Rocca. Well, you see, these are questions that ‘ycu should ask the WH My answer, his argument with the tnat the DGI occupied: must have been within completely uninformed, experts. is that he was in, consul:. took place in the verv offices and that the DGI chief of the comronent. hearing rance. I have forgotten his name. ‘But that area, in other words. was a mart of it. Azcue -- is that -- Mer. Goldsmith. Ves. Mr. Rocca. -- the consul. Now I will think -- the well at time, he -- -- Mr. Goldsmith. “e'll defer that line of inquiry untii later. Mr. Rocca. Well, I am trying to clarify. what I meant ‘here. It is: that 7 felt, and still feel, that many answers Cc teal + IAT RESCRTING COMPANY, INC. ON FID EN contact { ! i
CONPIDENTIAg | ' | with-respect to Oswald's motivation, his background, his Z technicues will be found in Moscow and Cuba and not here. | ° i . . “ . . . . r . | That's all. That's what I had in mind when I said the window ' . . 4 it + : . = | should have been left oven, a wider window. by | Mr. Goldsmith. Were you given information in 1963 a ih : a 5 | toe ' waa . “ 5 | pertaining to Oswald's possible contacts with DGI? o 7 ! a aq: € x i Mr. Rocca. No. Not as far as I know. a ai & "| Not as far as I can remember. = , ™ ‘ \t 2 i ; sy . : > S a Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any dealinec at ali with Fond | - ta z= '9 |) the Nosenko case in 1964? e.tlhu “Mr. Rocca. No. . if | I was excluded from the case. cn 5 @ fa ~ , : . : . as . + S 13 | ; Mr. Goldsmith. So, in 1964, vou cidn't know what = if = id = tg i . ' 2 . sl a # information Nosenko had given on the Oswald case? x Hi = - = 13 Mr. Roceaé. I knew it -- I knew it by hearsay, by Sk. ee , | simply listening te accounts and meetings that were very in vo il . “| limited and designed tc satisfy need to know and so forth. saad i aed i 6% Si . 4 . 1} = | So.I knew it only in very generai terms. s a y = ta! . — : . . o | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Nosenko has said ¢ wt , ; 1 —_ “oa Ao ‘ 4 about the KGB's contact or lack of contact with Oswalc% . Cer Mr. Rocca. .In general. a Mr. Goldsmith. And what is that? ae lt Mr. Rocca. In general, his story was that he hac hac ” the file in his hands sometime between the first and the _second contacts, that is, between '6é2. and ‘64, when he CON PIDENTIAgG ‘ ’ tops SoD. me CONEA! ait. Doclda: 32263409 Page 65 ALRSERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC
. iio) CONFIDENTIAL Oy ui Gefectec; that the file did not exist in Moscow at the time tw of the assassination; it hac to be sent un : it has to. he ent for to Minsk, where Oswald had heer resettied: and that 4 ° ne had not been a recruited KGB source. w ‘ = & : . pe * | Mr. Goldsmith. Did Nosenko indicate -- | r } Sg] “ Mr. Rocca. I mean, I cern't know whether this is a | a | c 7 | ' gS | true reflection. | = : “ a! i é Mr. Goldsmith. You hac no direct knowledge one way ir f iH i GS 3 : H ‘ i or the othe c 1 ' FS | Mr. Rocca. Yes, I had no direct knowledce. g ; | = “Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Then let's not get into that | area, © 13 | Mr. Rocca. I mean, these are things that obviously REPORTERS BUTEDTING, i y work cut. 1s! ~ ., ; | Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever talk to Mr. Angleton about 13 - : the Nesenko’ case? ~. a 17 - | Mr. Rocca. On, we talked about it many times, but. & | always, it's always the cqeneralization and not the specific ¢ . j = 19! =. thing. I mean, there is a Gifference between readind what < Sou] - | | the man says anc what he said on a polygraph. A polycraph a . ae is critical and I have not read that material because he nad | te nN SU nD ay a number of them and these tend to be very important. a4 oJ } i Mr. Goldsmith. Has Mr. Ancleton ever indicatedc to 14 you what his cpinion was regardine the validity of what 23 i Nosenke said about Oswald? - CONPIDENTIAL Docld:32263409 Page 66 ALSERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC.
2 i 2) i i © ! | i eo | =. eu “ : ' fH Sg | wa & i ° =f x 74 ~ u - | € an ~ ; uF ra! VASIOTHCTON , . ‘« tc i = 19 Il td c aan = i = i ead TS i - i a i pe 4 Ez is 4 D ft = f wa | 17 i - ‘ | ted i i ta = Sy = wy = 19 | < : aa. a 20 | | oe Boe i ry ces fh 2p 384 : eee a . i aq } 22 | aes 1 as Docld:32263409 Pai “Mr, he ct tha unreliable, to be truthful about Tomay sav interruot this. -- I Roccéa.. T fet in that connection nesitate to speak for rH H yy nr oO oy him, but I judce egards Neosenko's statement about Oswald to be I may he wronc. 1, if it deesn't acain ion am trying to help -- Mer, Goldsmith. Please do. Mr, Mocca. -- that the veomle who made the determinati at that time were principally in the division, not in the staf. In Marphy an dad Mr. Bacley, and Mr, Goldsmith. Do you know whether all information pertinent to the Warren Commission's work was oromotliyv cemmunicated te the Warren Commission? Myr. Rocca. All of the mat al that I hac, as far as; ox that came within my camp, and that included the prime version, was given. I know of none on the outside that acid net go to them in one form or the other. Mr, Goldsmith. €o, any information that went through your Gesk, throuch your staff -- Mr, Recca. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith -- would have gone to the Warren Commission. Mr. Rocca. Would have cone to the Warren Commission. Mr, Goldsmith. And how long did it usually take CON PFPIODENTIATL a7 ALDERSON BEZSGRTING COMPANY, INC.
4 @ 4 wa = 5 N t a . wa 3 =~ ™ « / — coy = 3 cond ™ . ~ roy 7 e = ia = ofl a « = 4 os c c ws = té x” a aaa = 1s ¢ = = 16 = “ 17 so, S 33. 2 = S =. Cc = 20 ae 72 aw Docld: 32263409 Page 68 CONFIDENTIAL for such information to get from vour desk Commission? Mr. Rocca. Mow ae roa upon sensitive sources and methods tha - Goldsmith. Less Was there any info (t Given to the Warren Commission? Mr. Rocca. other?" Mr, Rocca. the LINGUAL materials, Girectly to the FBI None that I knew of, Vell, SO; i What do you mean mean, this is ed ts by than a week, I would qcne to the Warren sav. Yone form or what I have to exclude. I mean, I can't take on my back the total - responsibility. Mr. Goldsmith everything else that went through Mr. Rocca. nothing that my offic shortstopoed or not Mr. Goldsmith. concerned? Mr. Rocca. - But other To the best of my knowledge, e hancied that If so, t 5 as far as I ‘role on the Warren Commission, insofar as I don't know. I was in no position to really be CHOW « tnan the HDLINGUAL your office --~ was backstopned, that Did Allen Dulles plav any special the CIA was + was not in :egree of intimacy. é PIDENTIAL SPORTING COMPANY, ING. . They wen form ox other. there was WAS a + - Los
1 t 4 4 <= i ‘ + wn = 2 = z > os nN ' = is 4 w w ~- ~ : e - ~ / ~— of S 8 = ™ 39 [am - % = ‘10 - fs = 1 — ‘ wd x : <4 ~ ie - 7 = a ww —_ — = = t es ié Sod = bows = ys m - c _— ba a a& 2 = 16 ~ - a 17 te a = — es = oy - a =. iz x. : S = 29 2] ae gee aaa wi f to a nO is wo in DoclId: 32263409 F i | i \ i | i | { | ' t i! th by the Chief Justice on matters-- growing out of their own Ciscussions. I would say that there CONFIDENTIAL 68 “Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether he in any way attempted to represent the interest of the Agencv? Mr. Rocca. It woulc have been unusual for him to have Gone that, although he was certainly usec as a channel Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give us some examples? Mr. Rocca.--of specific interest to the Commi n sion, is in the file a memorandum written by Mr. Murphy, Chief $83, reflecting conversation at Mr. Dulles' house on some matter that Mr. Dulles had been asked ‘tc rerobe or to get information on. I recall that and it should be available in the recacd. Well, the executive sessions of the Commission show that they used Mr. Dulles as a kind of backboard for all kinds of extraordinary hypothetical, I think. - Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, are vou able to aive any examples of those types of situations, to your personal ‘knowledce? Mr. Rocca. From my personal knowledge, ne. I mean, I have read the executive session recorés anc they are pertinent. But not to my versonal knowledge. In other words, Mr. Dulles never discussed this with me nor was I ever oresent at any of those discussions on such points. Mr. Goldsmith. It has been alleced in the press that CON PIDENTIAT aye 69 : ALEPERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. i
qs S a! 7 | 0 = e° ” ~ ? ~ i ! i 3 i a $ | ~ , nN : t gz 74 ~ | = \ Pal ge it = a “ : . i ro 5 | ‘ { S 5 10} = j o i ~ ' t3 i = r; | = : ' = i 2 i s i = TU OG bac | re — 4 i a tw |] = i ' — it = { = T4 | is | a n = 1s : = 7 4 S i z : = i = 14 ! So: | ~ i = f n | ! - Fa - i a ‘Ss 4 soe 3G ra = 313 | = an o~ Se 39 | : i i t 1 t tow és = an: ey tt i to Le) n> re > tn i Docld: 322763409 Page 7o CONFIDENTIAL Presigent Forc, former President Ford, ina FBI, informaticn to the to the CIA. same allegation has been made of' Mr. Dulles lea Are you eble to make any comment unon that? Mr. Recca. .No. Again, I may make the collateral comment, that a review of the record -- this iooks the record assembled after the Rockefeller Cormission, the material that vou have on this desk. I am talking about the actual record in the Oswald file from January to February and to March, piece by niece. Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. Mr.Rocca. That is what should be icoked at. Mr. Goldsmith. That file has been examined, Mr. Rocca. Mr. Rocca. Well, then that answers my point. — Goldsmith. How frecuently were, rather was the Agency in contact with Mr. Dulles Guring this nericdc? Mr, Rocca. I can't -- = have no way of judging that Mr. Goldsmith. . Did vou ever have bersonal contact with him during the pveriod? Mr. Rocca. On matters of the Warren -- during the Narren Commission, on “arren Commission matters have had contact with him on one occasion, CONFIDENTIAL ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. which i I must Ss the one kine } | ‘ i i ( i 1 1 V4
3 4 - | 4 4 we > ¢ > = N 1 m : nw fo) -~ ~ ; co » ~ / ~~ re S$ a c ™ ra Y [= - ’ = id S in Cc e 7] bs = 32 a dad = Ma a os ae = ba o a a = : 13 = = a iZ es 1 = is S wn Zz l¢ ~ c = 720 mi eats aaa Docld: 322763409 Paiye T1 ALOSrs i ON 76 that Mr. Murphy went down to see himon. I was present on another matter, unrelated entirely, and must: have bumped into ue aim, But I have no recollection of talking with Mr. Dulles about any matters relating to the Warren Commission at that time of a substantive nature. I canit Simplv -~ I would have to. say I really can't remember. If I aid, incicentally, there would he a memorandum of recorec, so you can refresh my memory. (Pause) Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please review CIA number | i 2071. H (Pause) Mr. Goldsmith. Would you identify that document? Mr. Rocca. Surely. It's mine. I sent it to Mr. _.: wee Reims for his information. mm hal thot To ow + BS ; + = i tne purpose that TF went cown there for was entirely | i cifferent. . Mr. Goldsmith. First, let's icentifv the document. Mx. Rocca. Yes. It's just an informal notation to ; my Chief of a thing that I thought was significant at the time. Mr. Goldsmith. Dic it nertain to a meeting with Mr, Dulles? (Pause) Mr. Rocca. This is my memorandum and it stands on the CONPTIDENTIAL
i 2 | - | | * 2 | ' } 4 t 7 ee] z = ™N i ! ! a | wt fo} i ~ : ~ | S > | ~ | ~ | _ | S ™ ' i : gi a) 7 iH . 7 - ’ : = iC 4 S it S i = Pry ~ rio = ih v2 i| « } > 77 OO te | o ul © = i! aad Tai cS ae = i = 4 = ., i = fey e is) — W : HI & 2 i . iH = it = : tn = | if I . t = ; = } = to Jl > | ~ | = ! Cc a Ss 20 | i a4 “Se INT: 4 Te i we AA os ae 3} is a. i o< | i HH 26 4 a 4 4 acid as 4 H | it Docld:32263409 Paye 72 about the question of. the Warren Commission being concerned with the issue of Oswald having been a CIA agent. COW FIDE N TI A L 71 record. I accept full resvonsibility for it. Tt hears out, IT think, in essence, what I said earlier. : Mr. Goldsmitn. I unéerstand that. i What I am asking you now is -- Mr. Rocca. i am delighted I wrote it. Mr. Golcsmith -- does it pertain to a meeting that you had with Mr. Dulles? Mr. Rocca. Indeed. But it was not on the nurpose of the memoranéum. It was on the purrose of a totally Gifferent -~ of a TV presentation of a defector, and inasmuch rs as tne question was how the defector should be phetocranhed, all the rest, this was the topic now entirely collaterally -- ana incidentally, this other thina came uo which, of course, | x was one of Mr. Dulles' things. He had these and he called this to my attention. He wrote the answer, declining, and I reported it. i f i Mr. Goldsmith. By this other thing, we are now talking ~ et] i 4 3 1 : ' Mr. Rocca. The press, tne press had had it. Mr. Goldsmith. The Warren Commission wantec to resolve that issue. They had asked Dulles to serve as a contact with | the Agency as a means of expediting the resolution of this issue. Is that correct? CCONFIDENTIAL ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC.
CONFIDENTIAL 72 Mr. Rocca. I couldn't imagine. I would not attach t t | 1 i ' ‘ i i i H t | great granitic quality to this prose. I mean, the thincg to Ke i t . Ss | | 37, oe Loe @ i -is to get the letter from Rankin which bears on it. That 4 - 1 WwWiil tell you precisely what it was. i ~ i Mr. Goldsmith. Aqain, vou should net assume that we | y H a . i u Se 3 ‘ : o- = ° i have not necessarily done that. a 1 s 7 | ! ~ | Mr. Rocca. Ask for it. ~-I mean, my God; this is aco. = H | < | lead. : | I'm sorry. ag | | > ae 1 . . . . S | Mr. Goldsmith. All I'm saying is that you should not, - rei = . i = i assume that that has not been cone as yet. * i ae We will return to this document later. = i What role, if any, Gid the Mexico City station have s # in providing CIA headquarters with information relevant to S i the Warren Commission? tc : = 18 | - ~ \ Mr. Rocca. It had a key role. It nmroduced information 7 before -the fact and it conductec a whole series of followup = . a are . a]: et : Bed ther 5 i} activities on the material that it hac proviced, plus other . 1 . ! Eos | 7 | ~ i material that came in in the course of cealing with people a | , . 5 Las . who were in touch with the embassy ana facilitating the FRI. | AT | : RE | 3 + 4 £ 4} iLanifican: Dose 4 6 So, they were important. They were one otf the most significant @ yan ae : . me us n . . i uf i ™~ | parts. i Mr. Goldsmith. That was my next cuestion. zs | Relative to other stations, was the role. played bv the Mexico City station a major one? CON PIDENTI AT. MRTG SDOMEANY. (ic. HI au Docld: 322763409 Page 73 :
tw CONFIDENTIAL 723 “ry. Rocca. I would say it was, yes. { an ah, as ; . in Mexico City prior to the assassination? e- .. ‘ Mr, Rocca. Yes, uh-huh. = $ if . Leal 7 . “oe . n | Mr. Golcsmith. Dic vou have occasion tc review the i j . 5 5 . “ | cable and dispatch traffic that flowed between the Mexico Ss ’ | City station and headquarters that was relevant to the > | S 3} . . € }, assassination? ™ ‘ | a ae . : : Lue : - - ~ | Mr. Rocca. I reviewed -- this is another body of - ! = '0) information that I reviewed for Mr. Belin, in’ which I commente S { : ’ : = ti i x . 7 on these cables. | 2 | | - 12; A 3 +4 2 3 “ s24q.° : . ' - * Mr. Goldsmith. And in 1963, did vou have occasion to | ts ! ; . : { = { : ¢ i xveview all of the cable traffic? band ) “ | Mr. Pocca. In 1963, these cables just came across me, it ray Hy i S “i one at a time. Mr. Whitten handled them at the moment. I - | Gid not see them until later on, when R £ A came into the = i a WwW - i case. a 1 a tai = 8 1s i So, the original action -- n = Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, I understand. I cidn't mean . < | S 720 | . “ : to suggest that when the cables were actually sent, certainly AY! ! , i . 1 S27 24 fs | 1 23 | 22 Docld: 32263409 Page T4 prior to and immediately after the assassination. You m0) wouldn't have seen then because vou weren‘t involved in t case at that ooint. However, when CI/R&A came into the picture, did vou have occasion tc review the cable treffic that flowec between CONFIDENTIAL MLDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
CONFIDENTIAL the Mexico City station and headquarters? it became associated with the body of the assassination case. i i Mr. Rocca. Yes. 2} ee : : . “4 I think. it was among the meterial we facilitated in | 7 : 1 a ; : : * tae, i 1 passing to the Farren Commission anc also we facilitated their ~ “i Girect' examination of the materials in the Acency itself. ' ii j = i | 5 il eo 9 4 ney came out to ver rity it. a: 4 rat 5 i = 7 nna ta : a . - - Mr, Goldsmith. Did the Mexico City station have any | - i : = 4 surveillance operations in effect in 1953 against the Cuban % "i and Soviet Embassy and Consulates? ~ 0 4 was : : . . ! = 4 Mr. Rocca. Thev cic, as far as these cables indcicate.: = i Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall, generally, what tynes | a | i = 34 : oan of surveillance operations there were? | 2 | = 13 . : 4 i @ = ft Mr. Rocca. They must have been teleshone and = : a ' photographic. es 4 Mr. Goldsmith. As a result of these surveillance = is | ; _ . Loe +3 1s ~ | operations, was information pertaining to Oswald obtained? * Mr. Rocca. Information rnertaining to an unidentified | = | e | American was obtained and subsequently it was ascertainec = 1s il ; . = Ht that that unidentified American was Oswald. Anc, eventually, : = 20 | 5 | t 1 Mr, Goldsmith. That information was obtained as a result of which surveillance operation? Mr. Rocca. It was obtained only through» ‘the televhone Mr. Goldsmith. And, in fact, the telephone -- CcONPIODENTIIAL Al REPORTING COMPANY, INC. “- DoclId: 32263409 Page 74
CONFIDENTIAL 75 Mr. Rocca. There was nce photographic coverage, as ws | far as I know. rs | Mr. Goldsmith. That picked un Oswald? i ‘. i Mr. Rocca. Yes. w i = a4 . x i Mr. Goldsmith. The teleohone tap operation in fact t ‘ : = i w 2 A ° i .aid identify that somecne who identified himself as Oswald a of 4 . a os : - < 7 hac been involved in a telephone cail. = _ i S 24 = | Do vou recall that? : in| Mr. Rocca. Well, you are now going well beyona my | = it # . ‘ e “? capacity to remember. Soi Me at waa run ; oy = i Mr. Goldsmith. The only reason. I raise that question - ‘“ | is because you indicated that the information simriy referred 129) RI . ~ = i } to an unidentified American, and our record indicates that, n | in fact, at least one of the transcripts contain Oswald = i rand - 4 . = {So . 4 ’ . . . , . S "4 identifyine himself, or whomever was in on the cenversation = 1s | Lee - | identified himself as Oswalc. 2 \ Mr. Rocca. That.was a subsequent teiegran. PS. “| Mr. Goldsmith. . Why con't I just show you the transcr = 153 ~ | te refresh vour memory, if I can find it. S 10 | | Mr. Rocca. Yes. wee ee a (Pause) EG se | @ 2: sectth, Please review CTA usher 1863 _* i Mr. Goldsmith. Please review CIA number 1863, | which is a copy of a transcript of a telephone conversation | that teok place on 1 October, 19€3 at anproximatelv 9:55 or ¢ | . 10:00 o'clock in the morning. i CONFIDENTIAL ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC. DoclId: 322763409 Page 76
CONFIDENTIAL 76 ih) Mr. Rocca. Ah, Kostikev, that's one of the names. t ' _ (Pause) 1 i 24 0 4 tay , @ - | _ Mr. Goldsmith. Have you had a chance to read that : i : t * | page? o > go. } a - 4 Mr. Rocca. Yes. : = i i wo Pa | A . . 4 : . . 2 : “ 8 This is the one where he identified himself. s ‘y My. Golésmith. Se, in other words, the surveillance | - | = 2 i operation picked un more than just an unidentified American. | = il & & & J i v 7) At least at some point it picked up a reference to Lee Oswald... = io 4 Mr. Rocca. Indeed. 5 il = ry i 4 4 : 5 tee 4 = i Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know when snecificallv the 7 3 i : | = r= i - ‘ : ! a Warren Commission was told about the fa ict that Oswald had # mace telephonic contact with the Soviet embassy and, in fact, BUTEDTNG, Oo the contact. tn tnat the calls. came from the Cuban embassy? x 4 cL | z IS Mr. Rocca. I have no idea of the time. They must have . - | been told very early because the whole community was told on | = } i A all a | - | Qcteber 10, or October 83, or whatever. = \ 2. “| Mr. Goldsmith. Well, that's when the community was = is tl : . . = =. ° | told. Eowever, the community was not necessarily told that c 4G) . . - . ” | there was a telephone tap operation. They were just told about | i ; Mo | ‘i Mr. Rocca. Yes. 2 | ; : a, . . Mr. Goldsmith. My impression is a very narrow one. 24 | — . . "| When was the Warren Commission specifically. told that 25 Oswald had been in telerhonic contact? CONFIDENTIAL Docld: 322763409 Paye TT ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING.
77 \ CONFIODENTIAZQ ; ma Mr. roccé. Oh, I think they were told that immediately, ct nat the material went over in such a form that this could not: CIA number 1979, which is a member from Coleman - Slawson CONFIDENTIAL i 2) : ~ | Ls. . t,o ues ) 4 be discuisec, and it had to be. | Mr, Goldsmith. So, vou are saying that the Marren ~ , Commission was told about the telenhone surveillance operation? it ~ a ve Q | . a . _ H : Mx. Rocca. They were given the transcripts. ™ . i a 7 | a =o . - | Mr. Golcsmith. Do you know when thev were civen the = ‘| , 3 24 € \ transcripts? c | Mr. Rocca. It must have been in January or before S | Mr. Whitten ended his tenure. There was: no cuestion of cc ; = iH = # Giscuising that fact. It could not de hidden. And, of course; “ i , a | as you know. they literally went cown ano observec anc = i ; @ a. ic | = # Surveyed the place. ‘ if : 1 : 2 i I mean, this was a part of -- coviouslyvy the sources wi i =z 13 4 woe S * and methods were-supposec to be protected. But my feeling is Bog | es . = if that they had to know this frem the start. OT 1 ia (Pause) 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. Was Oswald ever observed by the CIA = a= | “ - 4 to have been in contact with the Soviet officials in Mexico e et : : : a | . = 207 | | City? ar: CE | LN | Mr..Rocca. You mean, actually seen? te TF an : , pees ON i Mr. Goldsmith. Observed. Seen. i “Mr. Rocca. Not to my knowledce. Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you now to read as 3} 4 i ' ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Doclda: 32263409 Paje 78
c 0 i | - os : | of the Warren Commission staff. 4 7 Please skim very quickly throuch the first two vaces | until you get.to paragraph number three. Read naragrann } i 4 | number tnree carefully and stop there. | be ~ | (Pause) t t 5 . | “ | Mr. Rocca. I Lave read this. ~ - | . S 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. If you want to place this here X zs oi os 2 4 2 4 = “| (indicating), we can both look at it. ™ ‘ od ! Mr. Pocca. it is, of course, totaliv erroneous. fay Hl : = At z ~ | This statement is erroneous. g .. | = ll rT 1 ad Ss - > 1 =: = i fo can’t account for it or undersand why he did not -- . if | “Mr. Goldsmith. This memo is dated 1 April, 19€4, ‘ . @ = i , Yq S nan The statement in the memo indicates that the CIA has reported — f “ = iH = Ts ou a os : a , vo the Commission that Oswald was’ observed in mid-morning = igi . : tae . . . ee ; in the office of the Soviet military attache in Mexico Citv. iS : : : 4 : - | i‘m not sucgesting that the statement is accurate. - | But the reason that we are concerned about it is because in 218 his i issi = 7 fact it appears to suggest tnat this is what the Commissicn n ~ .. Staff was told. oc a i . = 20 | . , : oh: 2 Do you know anything about that? ay ~ 2! 7 oh Mr. Rocca. No. os otal . . Ph re ; taal . . + a © oN My, Goldsmith. Well, is it possible that the 22 | | Commission staff was given the information about Mexico City, i} the Oswald contact, without beinc specifically told about 38 . ; the telephonic surveillance operation? ‘ iq. F CON PIDENTI AT, i 4 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 322763409 Page 79 ° NFIDENTIALS
roi . : | Mr. Rocca. I think not. I don't think so at all. - = a) ~ “ | i mean, Mr. Slawson was.given the actual text of that | 3 : . 1 2 p rs . earlier telecram.. The intercept, as I recall, was from the 4 4 : “| Cuban Embassy to the. Soviet Embassy. Oswald -- this was a ¥ | 2! | = 2: _ by * 4 Saturday -~ Oswald had gone over and so forth. t H : 2 4 | ‘an ae ta: ; ! f So, this word, this is a mis-speaking again -- ~ : . : ; om 7 i WAY 5A tt WAR AQN . +2 . . : > | = observed, Opservec.” is the wrong word. - He had heen | = i : to = a _— we ; ; | = | reported by, to Nave been in the office. ; i This is a conciusion from the intercept. No one can | = { “ ; - 7G} ; . : + 5 draw any conclusion further than that. =< i 4 Mr. Goldsmith. If we go and study this paracraph ul if . & A n ‘ H . } carefully, it is apparent that the information that they are | it : . ~ : a relying upon here is the information’ that.icame directly from | -— } ~ ' Sie d ., -_ +s | wn ) the telephonic intercept. | oe fH | S i Mr. Rocca. Which was rendered in its entirety -- x : ~ ! _ | Mr. Goldsmith. To the Commission staff? = a 7 | . . . < ! - | Mr.. Rocca. -- tc the Commission staff. pe | = a That’s my best recoilection. = 3! = Mr. Goldsmith. You can tell from the way that the e : ‘ < 394 | . ; ; a 20 | ath D i thi issu t is talki t vi | author approaches this issue that he is talking about visual 1 observation. Here he is concerned, in the rest of the paragraph Et fl 74 ed th he is concerned about the possibility that this agencv mav observation? as t . awd H | Rave pickec Oswald up under photographic surveillance. 24 | Ts it clear to you that he is referring to visual Docld: 322763409 Paiye 60
ts - ! i \ > 3 ea) - i ~ ' ' 1 = i na - | wa 3 j 2 ™ ‘ t food - a 7 | ~ : ! ma 3 : c “ot nd i T - a: ae 2 ’ c ? 13 VAST THC TOM, nd 1 ' i 1 ! t i i | t | i | | i | | | | | | a BITE DING, a rand i _ a te 3 = iw = Yr = m ce te - is = = 7 17 , bal i) sd mn : % i2 | = i ie] : = tS | oé sy ~ ' c , c =n | a a~ t 26 oT ta 4 it Docld:32263409 Page 81 CONFIODENTIAL 80 Mr. Rocca. I think what Mr. Slawson nas done, what Davic nas done, is just mixed up the eight man stuff and the photographs and the intercent on the telepnone, and it came out that wav. It was simply a mistake. Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. I understand yvour opinicn as to! what he may have done: “But, is it clear to vou, nevertheless, that his impression was that Oswald had been visually observed? Mr. Rocca. That's what he says here. Mr. Goldsmith. Okay. Mr. Rocca. To be observed would be to be visually Mr. Goldsmith. Excuse me for a moment. Mr. Goldsmith. Would you like te.break for lunch or continue for a moment longer. We will be here effectively all cay, I think. Mr. Recca. I think we can continue for another hour anc eat later. i Mr. Goldsmith. ine. It is no problem to us. (Pause) i t | 1 ' 1 i ! t i ' Mr. Goldsmith... Was there any concern about disclosing: a sensitive telephonic surveillance operation to the Commission staff? Mr. Rocca. I think there was inevitably, under the
Ww fey ws > g aa > ™ t 3 i wn 3 t ~ ~ : | cS 7 | = | Cc ut . Rad it oS voi ral i = 195 Ss i = i = on = if wt } ~ 14 ‘ beh 5 i g : @ 2:8) = HI = Taf an ‘i x i ce 1: | aA a = i = | ny ~) 300, 7TH STREET, ay en DOE Pest aa bal/ nm ie Ww in i Docld: 322763409 Page sources and metncds: concepts that prevailed at the time. But + the nature of the evidence precl: $ dec. absolutely disguising it in any wav. As far as I know, there was never anv attempt to misleac with respect to the nature of the access, and in dealince with Slawson, or with Belin, or with Lieber, it was cerfectly clear that they -understood that this was an intercept on a telenhone, on 4 camera, anc, moreover, they went Gown and actually saw the installations--- this is my conclusion -- anc reviewed them. Ané, we eventually enced un by Going the translation from Spanish, or from whatever language was involved, in some x of them for them. So, they had: to have the exact knowlecce of that aspect. -n fia =r. Goldsmith. Please refer now to CIA number 1 (Pause) Mr. Goldsmith. “ould veu identify for the record. what that document is? Mr. Rocca. It is a telegram from the Mexico City station which refers to an earlier telecram. [It uses the cryptonym, I guess for the operation that procucec tne materi Mr. Goldsmith. LIENVOY. Mr. Rocca. -- LIUENVOY.. And, I think we've already seen it. ‘Tt says that they have vhotocranphic coverage which
H iy they believe may be the ran. i ; ; 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. Now, you say that this refers to an | | 21 earlier cable. © - Which cable is the earlier one that's being referred = - i to? ~ j . a <j Mr. Rocca. Well, I assume that Kostikev and Byedikov ~ ‘| are the same two veorle that we saw earlier. = 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. That was in the transcrint. c i . sg 5 | Mr. Rocca. In the transcript, yes. = 10 | Mr. Golcsmith. “Ye saw a transcrint earlier. But we = oe : ; ; : : mot aicdn't see a cable earlier, did we? ~ 42 4. Mr. Rocca. Well, my impression is that that thinc 2 | @ a 1s. came in earlier. I would have te reproduce the materials = ts here in order. z 1s 3 Mr. Goldsmith. Would you like to -- = ts | Mr. Rocca. Is it important? _ it ~ ° i | Mr. Goldsmith. No, it's not. But vou just raised a = 8 cuestion on the recoré and I would like to clarify it. I a \ ; ; = 13 | . . . . B} = ? | don't see a reference in this cable to an earlier cable. . =a | Mr. Rocca. In cther worés, this is the first cable ‘L at : . come "| that came in? NS ! 0 ym | Mr. Goldsmith. This is the first cable, according to if a i . . : -- i the record,. reporting Oswald's contact. 44 i . : a . | Mr. Focca. You see, in that other, in the rerort I “- | @id for Belin, I had set them out in actual order, the cables, \ CONFIDENTIAL a ; ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. DoclId: 32263409 4 Page 33
Q Q N PIDENTIATL 23 Mr. Goldsmith. Well, Mr. Rocca -- ! ; “so that we knew what came in at what date. Se this is, then, { . . 2) | the tirst cable reporting what they had heard, presumably. @ i} Mx. Goldsmith. The date of this. cable is -- i | 7 Mr. Rocca. ¢ October. el ~ 4] a + 4 ~ Mr. Goldsmith. 1963. el 2 ' A : _ Mr. Rocca. It is my impression that there were ~ ' t . . 7 if ou fo 1: 1 : : : 4 - ta ~ | earlier cables, that there was an earlier cable. But I can't, x 3] . ond ~ . 4 . fa < 1 from this cocumentation -- 3S Fi x Mr. Goldsmith. And what was the supstance of that ~ iG 4 , 2 | earlier cable? t : = i Mr. Rocca -- I can't -- that there was someone down x i 2 , ; . ‘ we f there who wanted to go to Cuba. I can’t ~-+ without having = i @ mz OIg- 4 = i the-entire run of that traffic, I can't reproduce it here. S ta . : o I can't reproduce it without getting into more neec for 2 explanation. It simplv utilizes time. = 1 | e774, Mr. Rocca. Yinat's the point here? S.é a Mr. Goldsmitn. --it would become important to JAN TTH STREET, “a nd oO cable and we haven't seen it. Ft would become immortant the committee if your memory is that there was an earlier | to resolve that question, | : | ! I ! | 4 ; So, to the best of your recollection, was there an i earlier cable? 24 Mr. Rocca. I.-- weil, if this is the first cable, this ig it. |\pocra: 32263409 Paye 84 aL