Docld: 2002". (202-854-2345 REPORTERS -BUTLDING , WASHINGTON, 0..C rm 7 s 300 7TH STREET, en 32262407 ‘Page 9 L ticipation in it. | came out from Mr. Hall. | agency and the FBI on this situation. 13 was before the full Committee and the subpoena had originaliy been issued before the full Committee. So I stand corrected and I don't know why I forgot it. I talked about it. tt . will be a full Committee meeting on the 2nd and 3rd to hear from Mr. Trafficante. The investigative srategy is to anal this his. initial appearance, not his final and exhaustive appearance. If he’ Hy responds to us” the thought is we should begin questioning him primarily based on the Bayo-Pauli raid and his possible par- Mr. Fauntroy. On the what? | faye Mr. Blakey. Bayo-Pauli raid. ‘This is a matter that We have also made an effort and are in “the ‘process now of developing information from both the Central. Intel Ligence I might indicate that that raid is in itself not terribly | significant. It was probably a failure. . Nevertheless, it is im a possible organize crime anti-Castro activity, involving cra | personnel well after anything turned up by the church “| committee. There is, I don't say a possibility, but | a. merest | 4 . hint of suspicion that if the story originally. given by Mee “Roselli that one of these raids was turned around. and brought. \ back on the President, some raid during this period of time. _ ALDERSON REPORTING co MBANY.. INC. SS
14 i | | would have to have filled that boat. It probably would have involved Mr. Trafficante. So we are beginning a step by step move in on a ‘very serious allegation, the Roselli matter, and we begin moving in on it with Mr. Trafficante. We are also in the process of continuing the contacts available to us before Mr. Trafficante's appearance the Roeselli testimony from the Senate, also the Maheu testimony -before the Senate. We can then evaluate whether we wanted to hear from Mr. Maheu ourselves. Obviously Mr. Roselli is no longer available for ~~ initiated by your letter to Senator Inouye. We hope to have Congressional subpoenas anyway. really do not know whether he will or not. If he does, there REPORTERS RUTEDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 20024 (202) S5-29N5 If Mr. Trafficante does not cooperate with us -- we -ia a lot we can talk to him about now and perhaps even more SW, | cooperate with us, this is probably as good a.time and -place to find out what happens if a witness does not’ cooperate. after having taken the Fifth Amendment. “300 TTH STREET, “y7-] so we could talk to him about down the road. If he does. not se i “ * ~ i. | | | I expect that after the first of the year, it will be. a aoe ee “| more common occurrence that witnesses will not cooperate with t us and it may be a good idea for us to have a little practice a nn en ne a A ER ne AR A NE A 44 | before the first of the year. So Mr. Trafficante is really a 25 |iwitness before the Committee designed to do a number of things. eo Q i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING Doclda: 32262407). Page 10 a ae ve
Docid: REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.'2002". (202) 554-2345" Ww s 300. 7TH STREET, . te 13 “killed both his father and him for a number of years and they “| anyway, but I don't want to see our witnesses bumped off. ae - Lo 32262407 ‘Page 11 - 'Giancana, the remarkable thing is that he is not dead now but “for him. If he doen't want to cooperate with.us -- Cle of being one of our witnesses when we called him, He: was also. ‘15 Mr. McKinney. I just have one question, Bob. You talkec in and says I am Raoul, the population control experiment going on in this Kennedy assassination, it has leveled off the population rapidly... If we get into many executive sessions. -an give him immunity, what is’ going to make sure’ he -is. ever. ‘aroun ‘bo appear again? The traffic death rate in this thing | is’ about the worst of ail worlds or the best. If some. guy comes = extreme. He is the last of the Mohicans as I understand ‘it. Mr. Blakey. He is certainly one of the last of the. Mohicans. I don't know I would state he is the last.;of the Mohicans. That is a risk we are going to increasingly, run. ony into not only with our organized | crime witnesses but. our “Cuban Witnesses and the best I can say ‘for Santo trafficante, dr., “4 . . : . Gey is perhaps to a little less degree, it certainly is true. of | that.he wasn't dead a long time ago. There are an awftil lot of people who had reasons to have have survived, and I think that is just a risk we have’ to run Mr. McKinney. I for one wouldn't go to the funeral | Mr. Blakey. We shave already given him the. dubious: ‘status a. witness before the Church Committee and of the. three people” 2 a 7; SO "ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING 0s
16 in en a nnn net tana ces reste t | | vl | who testifed before the Church Committee only he is alive. 2 | Mr. Sawyer. Did he take the Fifth before the Church 3 Committee? 4] Mr. Blakey. Yes. S a Mr. Sawyer. He took the Fifth before the Church Com=. :. t 28. 6 | mittee? & a | “Mr. Blakey. My indications is he did not, he testified. be Mr. Devine. Wasn'! Mt his willingness to appear ‘before Us ¢9 | and take the Fifth to show the war ‘lords out there he was ee 3 10 | going to stand up? ae: ' / oe a ni | Mr. Blakey. I have heard conflicting stories as to why i rn fo he.did. I think that is probably something we ought to fing ion Boa dont now when we are. in a position to do some very serious Eo | contont of him. It is a predicate in our record to inter 'B, (18 | rogate him. | Eval Mr. McKinney. He certainly wouldn't like the D.C. jail. ra Ty SWE: Mr. Fithian. Have we reviewed the Trafficante testimony in the Senate? Mr. Blakey. I am in the process of delicate negotiations a wey ge er which will get us access to that now and my expectation is’ 300 ITHESTREET, no a a a that we will have reviewed it by that time. a plo Pe BE “Mr. Fithian. I am wondering, Mr. Blakey, if your strategy might not possibly need modifying depending. upon what #1 you find out if the man has already testified. | ee 4 oe Mr. Blakey. It is my understanding of what he has: _ | es |e - ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANYAING § 0 0 ee Docld: 32262407 Page 12° RE ON or
mii. ea TL EM ae eR NNT. 16A testified about, it is unrelated to what we are talking about | Mr. Blakey. Well, the House Rules are square, that the 0 House Rules say if a witness is going to testify in’ a manner td | | i 2 but it is not squarely on all fours and the major focus of the : Senate Committee's investigation was the CIA-Mafia plots and 4 | Mr. Trafficante and Mr. Roselli and Mr. Giacano played a major z 7 roll in then. The major focus on the Senate Committee was on 3-6 | the adequacy of the responses. the intelligence agencies m: made ET) eo the Warren Commission. 3 3 | Our focus is really on the neither of those but | on what ; (S| happenea, actually Happened « on. November 22nd. the witnesses | F 10] related but he has not yet been I think full and fairly . | Bou | explored on Dallas as “opposed to Miami and Havana. a al ae . Mr. Fithian. What happens to the House, if Mr. oo : © 28) Trafficante asks to have his session before us in Open session’ | 3 “| Mr. Blakey. He can ask for that but it is an ‘option he | 2 5. | doesn't have. Under the House Rules he should - go into: ‘execu- | a S| tive session because the kind of questions we would’ want to. | 47 | ask him would tend to defame and incriminate clearly and aL. 8 is] degrade. | | 7 | LEN. . Mr. Fithian. I am wondering somewhat about. the members: | 2 ban the House who really took us to task on that Trafficante | | Sap" | appearance and those who would say that unless you" are: ge wilting! . O Pe |e permit a man to testify in open court you ‘have: violated his | a 7) civia liberties. ! up. ee, a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING.” DoclId: 32262407 Page 13° oe oe er
17 | od defame, degrade or incriminate, you are supposed to go -into 2 | executive session. Our rules reflect that. In the context of 3 granting a person immunity, where you are going to pursue oN de investigative leads off what he said, hopefully says, it shoul | 7 4 Bos be in executive session. Or | . aaa 3 8 The Chairman. Would the gentleman yield? . &. 7 ; Mr. Fithian. Yes, 1 ‘I have finished. £8 The Chairman. on: that. ‘point, wouldn' t the gentleman S 3] really agree that what shocked the consciences of: somé. (OF: the a) a members. of the House was what they felt was a resort ‘to o Bodh McCarthyism in terms of. posing questions to the witness, while a & “12 having a knowledge in advance that the witness would assert a) | Bohl his. constitutional ‘rights? oe a4 Mr. Fithian. I think that was certainly a pretty good -E «18 | argument. = sf Mr. Blakey. T might, say, Mr. Chairman, the staff has V7 discussed this and = will go on the record as saying. that te, 18] Trafficante is not being called simply because of his. alleged associations with organized crime and there is" no. effort: to ee treat him as a guineapig or a Mafia witness. There is a “300. 7TH STREET, S.H.° genuine bonified predicate in our record, and frankly while | no one can say they love organized crime, of atl the - ehings that they can say about me, I don't’ think a person: should be” ad 43 lasked questions , if someone knows he is going to. take the Fifth ae ah -  \ ALDERSON-REPORTING COMPANY. ING. Docla? 32262407 Page. 14. Se ,called simply because he is a member of organized crime ‘and eT
18 Amendment and take advantage of that. If there was not a legitimate investigative predicate in our record, in our files,.I would have no part of bringing him in here. He is a central figure in this investigation, on 4 both sides, in the sense in which some of the very serious: || attegations that have been made involving primarsty castro. | turning a group around and sending them back. ced ‘that Ais. fals jana Mr. Trafficante can lay that out, I think we. have a duty I-to destroy the false information, and if there is: some: indica | tion that organized crime or anti-Castro groups had. a part | in Vij the assassination and Trafficante can help us- “move “in. that G. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) S5N=2345 - direction, he has a legal duty to do it. | . 7 I think we should ask him whether he is going to live ‘yp! 4| to his legal duty. Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman. = -— ei Fe a oe =: | Ee. | = te The Chairman. Yes. | =e | a o wy I have one further follow up question | on. that. , Since | = 8". you have mentioned going into just one facet of the investiga | w | i = rye tive information which has come to your attention, has ‘the. sta ff 5 ah discussed from the viewpoint of whether you ought 4 to be. ready: 20 to go into other facets with Mr. Trafficante rather, than to ia As a4 | °°. a ce: yourself to any statement? oa Mr. Blakey. This witness, if he is going. totally. is’ “not o | a one or two day witness. This witness may be two. days. now and - a | another six months down the road another two days, another 30 ; ALSERSS N | REPORTING COMPANY,. INC: Docla: 39962407 Page. 45. ; ~ os ;
SW, REPORTERS. BUTLDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. .20024 (202) §54-2345 o ad ‘aes = & na & o~ eo o 20. Docld:32262407 Pa en re er pa ee i ee ett pee eee oo — } | i | { \ ' t 4 \ | ccs a the 8th, 9th and 10th and 15, 16th and 17th: + ge 16.- formally announced we would leave here on the 4th and go’ into 19 days down the road, another three or four days. If he is goin to talk and cooperate with us this is merely a beginning and it might as well begin now. We have enough: to hold him for two full days and our proposal is we do it on the second and third of November. We could wait six months and give you five days worth of testimony from him. My feeling is there is a time pressure that is moving us and that we should move as soon as possible. Mr. McKinney. Mr. Chairman, evidently the Speaker. proforma sessions until theEnergy conferrees’ come back at which point he will call the House back in session. 1 was going to say when you said the 3rd ana 4th -- | Mr. Blakey. 2nd and 3rd. “Mr. McKinney. I would suggest that the week before, the th we will probably be in until 1 o'clock every morning, fulk roll call votes, maybe .we can slip it over. the 3rd is what? Mr. Blakey. Thursday. ) Pan Mr. Devine. . Either’ that or borrow a room off. the House floor like the House Administration. | | The Chairman. We will be extremely busy at that time. Mr. McKinney. That will be a crazy week around this place. en Mr. Blakey. We have scheduled for the Warren Commission | -ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING. |
20 Let me suggest that we tentatively schedule Trafficante for the 2nd and 3rd and if everything collapses and we can't make it, maybe we can move into Friday the 4th or Monday :the 7th. Mr. McKinney. We could do it if we could get a ‘room ove é lin the Capitol. That is really a crazy time around hére when “ll we are getting ready to go out. : Mr. Blakey. I think, frankly there is a reel possibility, assuming you vote today to grant him immunity, the Justice | Department is going to ask: for 20 days after we go to cour lbanyway, and in which case wa" may not have rrafficante. until the lena of November. — - a ' Mr. Fauntroy. I simply have a point of information to. BUILDING, WASHTHGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) .S5%-2345° raise. That is as to the kind of immunity that is requested ihere. You gave us a distinction between use immunity -and 3: transaction immunity and I.am wondering what. would be: the case S.t. REPORTERS given the immunity that we are presenting, or offering, were eS | 2 he to, what would you call him, were he to be the person at. . =z . which the buck stops and he says "look fellows, Giancana, well, $ 20: |} was afraid they were going to get me, I am the fellow, what sae) does this immunity that we are granting do. with respect to. that? } | | de ! | Mr. Blakey. This is use immunity, not tdansagtigi’ oo am I i i. @ immunity , which means if anybody else could prove it ‘indepen- = dent of our obtaining his confession, they could still prosecut! Docla:32262407 Pale’ 27 J |. ALDERSON REPORTING ‘COMPANY. ING.
witness that we call, the closer we get to the heart of the possible conspiracy, one of them is going towalk in here, as Mr. ‘McKinney said earlier, either the best of all | possible ; 21 him, and this is going to be the reoccurring nature of every | | & >| worlds or the | worst of all possible worlds, . I am: not- sure: 2 # | which, and say I did do it. As to some of these people maybe E 7 | we should recommend perjury prosecutions because ) they. are _ 3 3 | probably liars. As to the others, we are going: ‘to o have’ to i 7) make a judgment when that happens or how we isolate “the infor g 10) mation, so at does not interfere with our investigation and | (E-1 | the possible prosecutions of those people at a later point in | So | oe, ce O a In other words, we are not giving him immunity from 2. [Poot He does not get a pardon like Richard wixon got, & 5 | because he testifies before this Committee, all “ve a. is ‘ia Boe | cceect take an illegally obtained confession from. him. tt | oom is like, legally, in quotation marks, beating | a a contéssién, | EF [out of him. That means‘ that confession. cannot be. + used asain | EO?) nim and nothing obtained from that confession can be: used” —F ® | against him. It is an inadmissible confession, eam ie eeee 2!) amounts to. If we can get evidence independent of it we can. a "/ Prosecute him. nae - an Mr. Fauntroy. My view is that I am not interested. in; O oN | prosecuting anybody, I simply want to know, and ‘we can't really ! _poperate on that basis, I take it? | | — ste EE es . So - ALGERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld:32262407 Page 18 re
22 Mr. Blakey. No, we cannot. We should operate on the no ‘basis the function of this Committee is to find out what cS | : | | happened, not to prosecute. We have a legislative function to ‘| find out the facts and circumstances and the Congress has. (2 4] given us the immunity from the use of testimony, not Gepedee- a8, © | tion. We are not a prosecutive agency and if we handled” ‘the’ £7 | snmntses testimony carefully with the security pooeeaurde: we 3 4 have set up we will not interfere with any prosecutive agency. {9 | consequentiy we should not be inhibited as prosecutors tradi- Z| tionally are in granting immunity. Bo That is the significance and the hope that: this ‘Committe a 2 | nes, that none of the investigative agencies in. the > past have © B01 | nea in pursuing these issues both in the King. and. Kennedy side. a 7 ; | Mr. Edgar. I just have a couple of questions. Can you | & Wl cent me the status of the two murder cases of. the’ other two | = | pd tnesses who appeared before the Senate Committee? | | “7 Mr. Blakey. Both Giancana and Roselli are re technically | B18 open cases. I will tell you that a confidential informant | é 1 | nas told me that Trafficante is a suspect in the ‘Gdaicana case, I am sorry, the Roselli case. ie eee tt ‘Mr. Edgar. That was my next question, is “Teafficante. © am ~ | a suspect? I guess my third question is in Light. of that. eee 2 || speculation, does our granting immunity at this. point: at. alk . oe ee with any of those investigations of the. two murders? 4 | a J _ Mr. Blakey. No. In other words, we will ao it in ‘e x” f ij ae ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING. 7 ectd;a7262407 Page rn a
. her literally as top secret material. It will not be disclosed to people on the Committee who do not have a need to know and it will not be disclosed outside of this Committee without literally the full vote of this Committee and the: Justice | . ; "Department will be given an opportunity to segregate, ees | evidence now over a 20 day period if they want it, ‘SO otha they. can show the independent character of eee . 23 | . I | executive session and the immunized testimony will be treated | | | They can date taking everything that they have and that, they | : dt. the | REPORTERS BUTLDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 10 had the day before we granted him immunity and thus show the | 1 | independence of their investigation over any testimony that | 12. we might take up here. | | © ¥ Bo The Chairman. Mr. Fithian. | . a | Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | ast I presume that you are operating on the “assutiption that | 4! . i 6 | ene likelihood of his not cooperating is very ‘great?. a aor Mr. Blakey. Well, ‘John. Hornbeck, who is Y prépabeiig the | a8 interrogation, said in sest, this won't take long. ‘Bis | = '* | estinate, frankly in his estimation, John's sectoral tf ha 520. os an organized crime’ prosecutor, he was once involved in | | 1-1 prosecuting Roselli -- is Mr. Trafficante will hot cooperate | 2 Juan I don't know what it is. Those kind of witnesses I | || believe when they take the. stand ‘and begin talking,- I think 7 ‘| there is a substantial chance they will not, in which case we “waa have a hearing for more than ten or eee can He os re | _ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ine. . ; | oo 7 ; | - : : Docld:32262407 Page 20°
24 the 2nd or the 3rd, there is also I believe substantial chance | he will come in and start talling us what happened. I am: i> Mr. McKinney. So are we. | | | 2 | dying to find out. | | The Chairman. On that point, let's discuss the scenario i. ae a 6 of ait. firstly, political implications also fo: that spect ‘of the &:- 7°) investigation. . . = oi That is a morning, in which firstly the presence. will ow s ae Fy be entitled to know who the witness is that. is being galled, = to | Mr. Blakey. We won't tell them. If Mr. Trafficante | Bo. of . a | wants to he is free to do so. His appearance would not be . | a oo . et i SAD samnnounced. What would be announced, we would have a meeting | ere oa 7 ; O 1g 7/8 hand if they recognized Trafficante in the hall, “they would . 3 6 find. out about it, but there would be no duty. on, our’ part’ to. 154 announce it. = We would begin it in open session and. ‘then we would close { hs | | i | | ‘7 it, then the witness would appear. ot | | | ! - =. | ne | Bo ee ae Mrs. Burke. He would have a right to oppose it being © 7 E19 | closed? ae | Egg! . ; co ne a Ae Mr. Blakey. No. eae | ae | Mrs. Blake. He would not? © pe 2 Mr. Blakey. He couls ask that it be open but that ‘is. ‘a, 73 | aecision that is entirely up to the Committee. “He “does. not; “ ae vai fh ye . | O- 48.) nave. the right to have it cpen and indeed the House Rules say. that it should be closed beeause it would defame, degrae and. rn rn ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 1 Doclda:32262407 Page 21° ey Be! Oo , 4
25 incriminate. The Chairman. Assuming, let's say, the scenario con- tinues as you indicated a little while ago, that in tive; ten eat the most 15 minutes, there is nothing to prevent his © | attorney from. going outside saying to the press ‘that my client said nothing, asserted ° his constitutional rights: and- SO. forth. “In that. vein are you prepared at this point to- go to the mat with him in terms of immunity? 2N024;(202) -S5N-23NS. Mr. Blakey. Yes. hk not a sham or a circus witness. We have: honest" ‘questions oe BI The Chairman. And is the issue that important “in terms —- MH. of the investigation that we. would look right. and proper when ne | Loe 12. ‘the matter comes out in ‘court? © gl IF Mr. Blakey. ves. ‘There are two, tevels ‘on’ it. | Wey. | go clearly have an investigative predicate for calling him. This oe , or _o- &; — him, that we would ask him honest questions. Te he claims his privilege of. selé- ~incrimination ang then it is i served on hin, a valid ‘immunity order is no longer privileged to. answer. o— nat _ : fe S: Le i aa c- If he insists on not answering, it will indeed become public because the scenario would involved | a. decision” on the “ek. i a ee ct tee tne eee ety See er se thr ne ea | Committee! s part at that. point to take him down to. the District! | Court for civil contempt and he would be ordered. to. “bestity, and oo if he did not testify he would be inmediately remanded to. i { | We — a custody of the Attorney General. That means we would then be | ch f i kG | oO fe : . ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING. | Doold:322762407 . Page 92, a es we oe
26 in the Court of Appeals within 30 to 60 days and the Suprene | oo at least on a right of certiorari within 60 to. 90, days. | -The Chairman. On that point, I guess this is. my: y concern. | : 4 At the point where we engage in that process wien the BS) courts, the court will’ ascertain from us at this point what Bo elae is you are attempting to elicit from this witness. ana. SO. “ET | gortn and Ir guess I am éditeernad about the political L rami tica- & 4} tions that was ceterred to by Floyd as it relates | to ‘his J 9 | witness here in the House at that point. heen 2 toy tr just want to be sure that when they - read it in the m £ ! | newspapers that it would be so very relevant that this: Commit tel = 2), would have been negligent | had we done anything other ‘than ‘that. © Bay Mr. Blakey. That is | precisely it. Lf this 3 1 [witness that we must test: jour legal pecan oi ES Ibe well.tested. It will be useful for us to have” tested: and. 26 thea. them sustained before. January or February. ° co Renee - ay . If he wants to go to the mat with us we are going to have! Be [re go to the mat, with scnebody soon anyway, I think. Tr would aera oe ee (81% |cooperate with us. I cannot believe that that will happen. — Seg HE we a0 soins to go to the mat with any witness, this is as URL \good a one aS any and better sooner than later. | ee ee OE | We are probably now as prepared for this ‘witness aswe'. | i } ae will be for any, both legally in terms of taking it. all the. w tin Jhvay through the courts and factually in terms of “Anterrogating. ! | | i | { | | |Pretex that we don't. I would prefer that all witnieeneg, 20: t | { | { | | | | il. i it I I ALDERSON. REPORTING COMPANY, INC. DocId: 32262407 Page 23 |
at this time. | 2 The Chairman. I just have one other question. - I would. lg like to go off the record for this question. ve | (Discussion off the record) _ Mr. Blakey. The question has arisen as to whether there do gp ves any previous conversation with Mr. Trafficante about | | gy ‘possible cooperation. Ha is my understanding» that “there vas : Pa iF and Ir ‘think that when the. letter is given to- Mr. Trafticante aa my returning him before the full | Committee pursuant to the last ot. S ‘all subpoena that then will be the occasion for the eran Bo, down and talk with us. | | a My experience has been in the past that lawyers talk | ) 2 2 an awful lot about what a witness is going to do, and that | e 4 | Sives them delay. It is like a motion for a conchae. | EB agl And I think what we need: fe ae is to give him a point in time, ES a focus in which he can decide to cooperate. with us. Te his boy response might be toes will sit down and talk with you, | a ‘a | we don't need to do this publicly, we won't have” a’ hearing, on: | JB ted November 2nd or 3rd, we will indeed arrange to sit’ down ‘and | 2 wl get his testimony fully, although ultimately it is: ‘not. “adequate Sahay! for him just to sit down with John Hornbeck and me and. the — | 1 LS z | Chairman, I think this Committee has got to hear ‘fron him al under oath, and we might as well find that out. sooner y rather | The Chairman. Mr. Fithian. @cTd:32262407° Pagd 240 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING.
28. proceeding at all were we to fail in getting to see his testi-~ No , mony from the Senate. I substantiate that feeling on the — . following grounds. , Mr. Fithian. I guess I would raise an objection to - Congress is the Congress, it is made up of two bodies but “it is still the Congréss of the United States. — I think we would ‘look awfully silly as a part of that. _process were we to have to proceed without knowing ‘what the’ _ other part of Congress had already done. So. would like to inject at this time a rather serious reservation about ‘the process, about what you outline here, what you propose, unless we are successful in dealing with our counterparts. _- that common concern that we are making an effort to. get the REPORTERS. RUTEDTNG,. WASHTHGTON, D.C... 20024 (202) S50-2945 Mr. Blakey. I share your reservations. It was out of ! { “Material from the Senate now and I would want to talk with SM, ‘, } from them, but at a later point of time whether at that. time: 0 we: should decide to postpcene this. 1 Mr. Fithian. I think, if I may continue, I think .I would 300: 7TH STREET, et come on very strong in saying that the timing would be. very ee , re -. pay 7 | You assuming we can't get it from them ever, or we.can get. it J | To the average citizen, let alone Mr. Trafficante, the | | | i j | | i ee ee .| bad if in the hustle and bustle to get the emergy..package out | || S€nate:- Chairman Inouye said we will sit down andnegotiate. ©: «| 4g | this but we are not going to get around to it right now, Io | - think then the timing of the interrogation of the witness, I. | | j - | ae | 1 + | APMERSON RER-ORTING COMPANY, INC. - 1
Nn. 20024 (202) Sé¥-2345 D.C. oO “REPORTERS. BULLDTNG, WASHINGTON, Py S.W: 300. 7TH STREET, hae tvs Docld:32262407 P who have a clearly constitutional differentiation in their -orderly fashion. I would find it difficult to justify the timing of the interrogation if at, say, sometime later the Senate were willing to make available to us what the testimony was: Mr. Hithiany. I think it is clear, it seems ciéar to ne, _we are headed in a different direction than the Senate Com- mittee was. I certainly would share the reservations of the "gentleman and would like to see if before you had Trafficante here, but I am getting very ‘concerned about us getting With- chelt to death and when it comes to this damn Senate Comittee I think T have expressed my opinion on both the floor and to ‘the Chairman before that I cannot believe that e aré having a hrder time from other bodies, which to me stands “for corpse, ‘than we did with the FBI,CIA, Secret Service or.anybody else establishment. | (Discussion off the récord) Mr. Fithiany. I also feel great concern that we get a case under our belts so that when we come down ‘to thevend, which happens to be in an election year and everything else, that we have the machinery greased and working in fairly “Mr. Blakey. You have really only got about ‘12° months..to do this in. Any postponement takes a month. aie Mr. Fithian. I understand that. . ae Mr. Blakey. It takes one-half of what -we have ‘available | fo ee a ap dye 26 6%. | ALGERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING. he
30 ' -to us. “ | Mr. Fithian. TI understand but I would personally object | a if we had not utilized every possible lever to get at the: a Senate information and clearly I don't think we have used 2 | every possible lever. os ee a ae Mr. Blakey. I have had dinner already: twice with ‘peobie | wg. Boyf related to the Senate. a oe = a Mr. Fithian. They are higher stakes than» ‘trading in ae that. matter between Tip O'Neill and Bob Byrd. “That is wnat et I am saying. - bad Mr. McKinney. I would suggest to the senelenaisidat Bal the previous counsel and previous Chairman and. this” Chain rrian © . Big we have used some, and our temporary Chairman, I think Biten ; ane is. ‘not here unfortunately to speak for himself, Ir think, he £ 1s | got about as touch as an individual could get with the Senate . 2 wef and we got nothing. ~ | Vite fal Mr. Blakey. I think I know a couple of guys over there. 7 wef? think if I talk to a couple of people right I wilt get it eal and it is only a question of a matter of time. a = xo | Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman, again, may I just asky ay | what possible objection would the Senate Committee have to: ; SS". | making available to us testimony in executive session or t i } | : . ' . : ° ° ° “jp | otherwise that may bear on our investigation? cae Mr. Blakey. I think two. One, political, they are the 33 | other body, and, two, I don't think they trust us. I think | - or ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING. © 8 ee DocId: 32262407 Page Py ae _ ALBERSON Rene a renee aa ;
31 i: necessary though we can talk with the Senator about them. : — i | 7 they believe in giving it to the Committee, I am being very - | candid, giving it to this Committee is like not giving it to ; the New York Times but the National Inquirer and they have - “4p Seveloved a real shield with the CIA over there wheré: they," | ta al don't leak and to give it to us would be tantamount to 1éaking : ‘| it, so I think they finally decided they are not. going to. = : give us the time of day and that process of convincing them —°..|’: = g | that that judgment was, premature is going to take a little ~ =| pit of work. | ° 0 Mr. Devine. Is that'a staff décision or member decision? S Oe S He Mr. Blakey. You néally want me to answer that? .» | =. | | ; a a 7 | The Chairman. Have we had some cooperation though. on | | O z. al some things. you needed over there? | ae | Mr. Blakey. No a lot yet. This is the test. case for = 14 | _— ?: | nan : . 3 e | The. Chairman. Sometime ago, as I recall, pursuant -to | TS. poe Ee D> .g | the same problem, I contacted Senator Inouye and it ‘seems to | WT oe — s ‘gt me he had designated someone there to sit Son an OE ER a | matter out. e am re ¢: 20 | Mr. Blakey. That is right. Now we are going. to’ find, — | out what work the matter out means. We have some-specific. | . | ‘|.things we are asking for. : The Chairman. I think whatever point you: feel is..0005. | a ! i a ‘Mr. Blakey. All right. Th tn  ALDERSON REPORTING.COMPANY, ING. 2 7. a
32 The Chairman. If you feel this is necessary. x | Jr. a 1 Anything further? 2 . Mr. Fithian. Other. than my clear recording ¢ of my. posi- Oo cs _ tion which will be to object’ at. the appropriate. time ie we : en have not seen ‘the Senate testimony. = 5 5 pe a ee The Chairman. I think that is clearly on the. record, : So. We Mrs Fithian. a 7 . a my, Te All right, can we have'a motion with referencé to’. o 7 - Trafficante? ae Mr. Blakey. That is’ correct, the second motion. on the B - ist you have. \ a Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman, I move the Select Committee O “g authorize and direct Chief Counsel to. apply.to. the-court. 13 EO ERE COUTe BO pursuant to 18-USC-6002, et ceq, for an order conferring ~ Bt, immunity and compelling testimony from Santos Trafficante, e ih ana a S.4. The Chairman. I would suggest in all probability the gentleman from the District is more familiar with ‘réading. psalms. 3N0 7TH STREET, 19. - Sag Mr. Fauntroy. Amen. coe (Laughter) cee" | | OS The Chairman. All right, properly moved’ that, this reso- |, -i) lution be adopted. The Clerk will call the roll. nN cs The Clerk. Mr. Stokes. nm - ae Mr. Stokes. Aye. nd ta ott W> er ay - pa he RESERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING. > - _Docld: 32962407 “Page, 29°! i. oo) ALDERSON, 1 REPOR: acne
S.u. Docld: 32262407 2no24 (202) S5u-23N8 REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHTNGTON, DC, aon 7TH STREET, The Clerk. Mr. Devine. 1. | - it TI | Mr. Devine. Aye. 2 | The Clerk. Mr. Preyer. 3 Pee | The Chairman. Aye by proxy. | The Clerk. Mr. McKinney. os | e Cl 7 | : i: Mr. McKinney. Aye. 6, . on 1 The Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy. _ Mr. Fauntroy. Aye. — so 8 a The Clerk. Mr. Thone. g . . (No response) 10 The Clerk. Mrs. Burke. i . The Chairman. Aye by proxy. 12 , The Clerk. Mr. Sawyer. 13 Mr. Sawyer. Aye. “ The Clerk. Mr. Dodd. {No response) The Clerk. Mr. ‘Fithian. Mr. Fithian. Present. 13, | eon as | The Clerk. Mr. Edgar. co | Mr. Edgar. No. a | The Clerk. Seven ayes, one nay, one present... ee | Mr. Blakey. We needed a two-thirds vote. It’ didn't pass: Ae | a a The Chairman. Well, do proxies count? ved SE, 4s : Mr. Blakey. Proxies count but we need a two-thirds vote. | ie : a “38 ;You needed eight. J oO, . - Coe AE Pagel 300 | oe “ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC... t
34 ! | Mr. Fithian. How am I recorded, Mr. Chairman? | | | The Chairman. How is Mr. Fithian recorded? : The Clerk. Mr. Pithian is recorded as present. . “| 28 , es “ ra Mr. Fithian. I request unanimous consent to have my: vote - ge ae as ams a elt. recorded as aye. Ds a a The Chairman. Without objection, the gentleman's vote: 2 | is changed. oe The Clerk. We have eight ayes and one nay. ~ | The Chairman. Two-thirds having voted in the affirmative SO a the resolution is adopted. a 5 | Mr. Devine. Let the record show the reservations of the | = IP co =: | , =. .. |. gentleman. = 12 | O Z | _ The Chairman. A clear reservation. | — 13 | : = | . | zy, | Anything further, Mr. Blakey? | T4 1 ; . & | Mr. Blakey. Let me add that this is a decision that | Oo. he - ae | Eig tees us go to court, but even after we come back from court | s | _ . . ar - bok | a IF. the decision is not effective, that is immunity is nee eens | Bo ferred until it is communicated to the witness, so there are | Bo still a lot of points of no return well beyond this one ‘and | “g- 4) | no decision ought to be final until you have passed the point | ae | , re . 4, | of no return which we have not yet passed. | a | The Chairman. Is this procedure available to the ‘public |. { oO oO, v2 | once you have gone and gotten -- ae “ ag | Mr. Blakey. No. Bs - y i mal ae ‘| O : 4g | The Chairman. This is a secret procedure? : tf ! noord 39260407 Plge a1" nen $0 ALBERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING
RG: 233 TAB #: ENTRY: | a COPIES/ PPS. /CLASS. BOX: ACCESS RESTRICTED The. item identified below has been withdrawn from this file: File Designation s Date : , oo . From ne foo In the review of this file this item was removed because access to itis". ' restricted. Restrictions on records in the National Archives are stated in general and specific record group restriction statements which are: available for examination. The item identified above has been withdrew because it contains: [J Security- Classified Information ° [x]. Otherwise Restricted Information _ : Authority Date.“ Withdrawn by NSCA John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992 (P. Le 102-826) NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION NA FORM soo (08) Docld: 32762407 Page 32.
ora oneneennenconneerna a : _ Mr. Devine. Mr. Chairman, this get abe s to. an ‘issue*that;was mmittee. I don't even recall which of our Chairme .confidential informants by whatever device’ may be’ necessa a Commi ttee here today is whether or not we will authorize “it seems to me primarily investigative’ tech f tter, but is one that should be left pretty well to the Chie f:: ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.’ Docld: 3227627407 Page 33
2002n. (202) SSn-2345 REPORTERS BUTLDING, WASHINGTON, 0: C. Wy _ | the full Committee. So it is pursuant to our “rules. ‘and. 8: oo. al. wo =. Se. a = ~ ca oe 7 oy tn, and the staff, rather than having us make a decision whether such an such can be a confidential information, whether he 4 can follow a close surveillance or what. I think that is | administrative detail. we shouldn' t be concerned with as | slong as it won't be enbarrassing to the Committee. a Mr. Blakey. Mr. Devine, in the weekend conference we | exptorea much earlier on with the Committee ‘some. of the investigative techniques that were open to us and oe: gained - _ about close surveillance as one of the possible ‘techniques “and many. of the Committee members at that time felt that the | | conversation was too abstract and said let' s don! t. ask me to o | give you a yes or no now, bring us back a case in: point. | Also under our rule, 7.5, this was included | in our. rules | I think by Congressman Dodd, it says prior to utilization “ of any investigative techniques not otherwise covered: by ‘these rules, such techniques will be discussed and voted upon by || informal advice given by a number of Committee nenbers that _ this incident is being brought to the attention of the Committee. Mr. Devine. Okay. Mr. McKinney. It seems to me on that weekend we questioned giving you blanket authority to do this and | several members withheld and said bring us a specific example: Mr. Devine. I apologize for not having been here for the - -  ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING...
| | | weekend conference. | i { | Mr. McKinney. I would entertain a move from the gentle- | . | Man from Ohio to give this blanket authority which we weren't as , | Prepared to do that weekend that would be legal under our an ~ rules as I understand it. eas ee Mr. Blakey. Yes. ‘ 7 . Mr. Devine. With the admonition we will rely on ‘the’ > “| good judgment of Chief Counsel and staff not to engage in | [| . ow 2} any conduct that might be embarrassing to the ‘Committee and | og de ° _ | it they have any question about it come to the Committee with G 1| it. es | . Mr. Fauntroy. I agree. | O S. a The Chairman. Let me ask a question. That’ weekend we QO =F 8 | a) an é 3. _, | discussed the matter, the reference at that time was made to | “E. oP gentleman who in all respects had a red neck type Sof | , re ; . ee a ie appearance and can fit right into a certain Situation, is |: | “, ya) this the same situation?” | on yo ot a 18. Mr. Blakey. Yes. Am I right? | o 19 | Mr. Lehner. Yes sir. This is a 34 year veteran ‘of the | ~ an . . | S20 | Atlanta Police Department. | Ss | a a Mr. Fauntroy. Move.’ | oe | Mr. Devine. He speaks that Yankee dialect, does: he? *- ; n'y — ee oa . : a J 4. ON Se a ba, e . oa The Chairman. The Chair will entertain a motion... -:-)- [> a : 7 Mr. Lehner. I just wanted to add that we will, have aula O : “s2] Backup investigator by the name of Hack. We didn't put his, | __Docld: 32262407 . Page 35 ae eno ae ;
40 name in the investigative technique resolution, so I would ask — 20024 (202): S$H-2945 that we amend the proposed resolution to include staff inves- | _ tigators Walker and Hack and Morris Davis. Mr. Blakey. If the Committee feels that we do this on a: general basis ,. the language should be modified to make it blanket authority and I leave that to the Committee's discre- “tion. _ The Chairman. I would think the indication here is that you. ought to have some general leeway in terms of this type of investigative technique and I think the bottom line as Mr. ‘Devine Says, so long as it is not in any manner’ that, will “ | embarrass this Committee you ought to feel free to: pursue — J standard investigative technique. Mr. McKinney. Or obligates this Committee to. any exchange of monetary funds. | : The Chairman. You would i certainly have to. come: back ‘to the. Committee for any type of monetary consideration. t | Mr. Blakey. Could I suggest the resolution read réscived, a "that pursuant to Committee Rule 7.5, the Committee. approves | the close surveillance and investigative technique," and well ana, THESTREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUTLDTNG, WASHTNGTON,: D.C. : CO O| ; a understands. in the matter of legislative history af at | BS | involves paying money we will come back to you, if it ean . hawt el a | danger of embarrassment because it might ‘be ‘considered to | _be illegal or immoral or fattening, that we will bring . it to . | your attention. aa se] li { 1 i > | | ALDERSON, REPORTING COMPANY, ING. Docla: 32262407-°  plge 36 | svi
N : { t | "| pe Sa | “a SY Oh “a 6] Be S | 3 | Zio! zt Sf = ia | > —- 42.4 ‘e aR Bo Brg | = 4 a 7 | S| 1g] ae meee | { ‘ Docld: 322 62407 P a ‘i. previous language. The Chairman. Yes. Any objection to that language? If not, can we have someone move it? Mr. Edgar. So move. The Chairman. Properly moved that this resolution as ~ amendmed be adopted and the Clerk will call the roll. .. The Clerk. Mr. Stokes. Mr. Stokes. Aye. “The Clerk. Mr. Devine. Mr. Devine. Aye. The Clerk. Mr. Preyér. The Chairman. Aye by proxy. Mr. Blakey. I think the proxy was specific to the The Chairman. You are right, it does. Mr. Blakey. It is probably no longer valid. The Chairman. or motions pertaining thereto. Mr. Blakey. I stand corrected. Mr. Fauntroy. Thank you. The Chairman. Okay, Aye by proxy. The Clerk. Mr. McKinney. Mr. McKinney. Aye. The Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Fauntroy. Aye. The Clerk. Mr. Thone. (No response) ALDERSON- REPORTING COMPANY, INC. > ee | | ‘
The The 2 cee The Mr. gee Clerk. Mrs. Burke. Chairman. Aye by proxy. Clerk. Mr. Sawyer. Sawyer. Aye. | wild want to hear from and subpoena them all. at. one tine. Te ao The Clerk. Mr. Dodd. PO Laie -(No response) a8 The Clerk. Mr. Ford. a 7. ne (No response) <= 8 . — a ; . ; * The Clerk. . Mr. Fithian.* “a oF , ; <a Mr. Fithian. Aye. So! . go The Clerk. Mr. Edgar. Bi Mr. Edgar. Aye. Bo The Clerk. Nine ayes. Ob aa The Chairman. The motion, Ca a | La Anything furhter? Bo TS Be 16: Mr. Blakey. Mr: Chairman, . = ©. information. n V7 ‘ . JENS, Be Ee Tg 2-20 Ser ESE oy Oo 2 | may also be, JON. tn Docid: 32262407. Page 38 . we might want to get authorization for all of the immunities - /ALBERSON REPORT: and this is a matter still of staff. discussion, | NG COMPANY. ING. > 42 therefore, is adopted. — only one simple item of bring it simply to the Committee's attention, that we have’ been discussing the probable or perhaps best strategy to. .| employ in subpoening some of the organized crime. offenders , and it may well be what we might want to do before you go ‘none | | | | | That the staff has under consideration,,.and I | crn | { | | | I. | | is give you the total list of all the people that. we: think We | | A
, | at one time and then make the actual execution of them con- 7 > | tingent upon subsequent events. (2 One of the problems. we have with this 20 day delay by “ae 4 the Department of Justice’ ais’ “if we get up in close investiga- | Sg (a tive work up here and they « can put a 20 day delay on us at BT iL oy any time, it may well impede our work, so this is Just. ‘some- A be pd thing that we are thinking abot now that I want to: bring to S57 ee! your attention. We may have for you a large list of possible Coa | subpoenas and a large list of possible immunities. in the ; i 9 | Js . on e | organized crime area even before you go home. I €cn' it know =. 10, mn oe ao. | ‘that is the wise thing to suggest to you, it is still some = . ae i i . . ae thing we are thinking about. ' cod Other than that there is no further business to bring aera e Bove | before the Committee at this time. Bg | _ ; : . . 2. | ‘The Chairman. Okay, there being nothing further, | this, ‘5 1s! ; . 9° | Pe «| meeting is then adjourned, subject to the call of the. chair. | a is | Thank you. | oo a 3 (Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the Committee was adjourned; 5 | subject to the call of the Chair.) = a S20 | a 3 . 72 | 22 | A - 25.4 || . af i th ALDERSO N @=PORTING nS COMPANY, ING." a -Docld: 32262407 43 Page 39°
fr! | t RESOLUTION TO DESIGNATE COUNSEL ENDL E COUNSEL _ RESOLVED: That the following counsel are, pursuant to Committee Rule 4 and H. Res. 222, designated counsel to take statements under oath relating ‘to a : the investigation into the death of Martin Luther 7 King; and are the only counsel so designated: Robert. Lehner Gene Johnson Michael Eberhardt Melvin Kreidman Alan Hausman. G. Robert Blakey I. Charles Mathews James Wolf
ROSENSON IMMUNITY RESOLUTION : RESOLVED: | That the Select Committee authorizes and directs the Chief Counsel to apply to court pursuant Cae te 18 U.S.C. $6002 et.seq. for an order conferring immunity and compelling testimony from Randolph ‘Rosenson. TRAFFICANTE IMMUNITY RESOLUTION RESOLVED: oS | That the Select Committee authorizes and directs the Chief Counsel to apply to court pursuant to 18 ‘U. Ss. Coos $6002 et. seq. for an order conferring immunity and foe compelling testimony from Santos trafficante,Jr.  ~ INVESTIGATIVE TECHNIQUE RESOLUTION = - RESOLVED: | | | That pursuant to Committee Rule 7.5, _the Lone Committee approves the close survelt tance fisting | Stabe tivestigatontalker andHorete paulo) eesTi4 4 rive reohni ge Coe: 32262407 Page 41 _