178-10004-10213 v9} AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE: DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : JFK Assassination System Identification Form Agency Information MCFARLANE 178-10004-10215 MISCELLANEOUS COLBY TESTIMONY BEFORE SSC, 5/23/75 Document Information SSCIA TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM COLBY, MAY 23, 1975 05/23/1975 118 [Restricted] DOCUMENT REQUEST, CHURCH COM DULLES, ALLEN EDWARDS, SHEFFIELD EXECUTIVE ACTION CAPABILITY FBI GIANCANA, SAM HARVEY, WILLIAM HUNT, E. HOWARD KENNEDY, ROBERT LANSDALE, EDWARD LAS VEGAS LAW ENFORCEMENT, WIRETAPPING MAHEU, ROBERT OPERATION MONGOOSE ORGANIZED CRIME PROUTY, FLETCHER ROSELLI, JOHN STURGIS, FRANK TRAFFICANTE, SAM WARREN COMMISSION, INFORMATION WITHHELD FROM ZRRIFLE . CUBAN EXILES CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THREE TRAMPS COLBY, WILLIAM E. CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS CIA CHURCH COMMITTEE BRECKINRIDGE, SCOTT BISSELL, RICHARD ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS 25 HY 50955 Docld: 32205805 Page 1 Date: 8/27/201
JFK Assassination System Date: 8/27/201 identification Form Agency Information AGENCY: MCFARLANE RECORD NUMBER: — 178-10004-10213 RECORD SERIES: MISCELLANEOUS AGENCY FILENUMBER: COLBY TESTIMONY BEFORE SSC, 5/23/75 Document Information ORIGINATOR: — SSCIA FROM: TO: TITLE: TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM COLBY, MAY 23, 1975 DATE: 05/23/1975 PAGES: 118 SUBJECTS : ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES AMLASH CUBELA, ROLANDO DOCUMENT TYPE: TESTIMONY CLASSIFICATION: — Top Secret “RESTRICTIONS: IC CURRENT STATUS: — Redact DATE OF LASTREVIEW: 08/10/1993 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Attached to 1781000410212. Page 1 of 118-page document copied only. For complete document see iD #1781000410112. : Ce nee eee eee eae v9.1 26 HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 2
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evi YR T S TESTIMONY: OF: a . PAGE Willian E. Colby, | . . 3 Director, CIA, | ‘== accompanied by -- Scott S, Breckinridge, Jr., Deputy Inspector Gencral., Enno Knoche, — Assistant to the Director, - George L. Cary, - ; Legislative Counsel ; NUMBER a a | | PAGE Colby hibit Mos. 1, 2, and 3, cardboard-backed ' Photographs, deemed marked in an off the record discussion early in the transcript, Colby No. -4 oo . oO 31 Colby No, 5 ” . 50 Colby No. 6 ; ; 116 Sc ne eset Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library . ; GN ae A ee Lg HW 50955 Docld:327105805 Page 4
3 " i 4 TESTINONY OF WILLIAM E. COLBY, 5 DIRECTOR, ENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY 6 7 Friday, May 23, 1975 8 . 5 United States Senate, 10 Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Raspect to 11 ; se oe ; Intelligence Activities, 12 oo : Washington, DBD. C. 13 . oon The Committee met, pursuant to notice at 9:15 o'clock 14 . a.m.,; in Room 407, The Capitol Building, Senator Frank 15 ' {Church (Chairman) presiding. 16 - . Present: Senators Church (presiding), Hart of Michigan, 17 Mondale, Hudcleston, Morgan, Hart of Colorado, Mathias and 18 , . Schweiker. 19 . ; Also present: William Miller, Staff Director, F.A.O. 20) . ' Schwarz, III, Chief Counsel; Curtis R. Smothers, Minority i 21 Counsel; William Bader, Professional Staff Member, : 22 ; ; >a “awe t £5 . - ‘ . . - z4 Photocopy from "a > ; Gerald Ford Library (> ¢ Po is 5 . zo ; Is > HY 50955 Docld: 32105805 Page 5 ?
‘1 | . (MesP AA AME VLU Ce “hE NLArILng Will come to order, 2 _Mrv Scott Breckinridge is accompanying the Director this 4 morning and may be called upon from time to time to testify, 4 For that purpose, Mr. Breckinridge, will you pleases stand | 5 and be sworn? 6 Do you swear that all the testimony you may give in this 9 | proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 8 the truth, so help you God? 9 Mr. Breckinridge. I do. 10 Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz will commence the questionin: this morning. i an 9 Mr. Schwarz, Mr. Colby, aid you have some things you } 12 2? ‘ 13 wanted to supply to the Committee? 3 3 ; 14 “15 16 1? 18 3 19 i 20 > 3 21 i 9 ‘ 2 4 Photocopy from 2 25 Gerald Ford Library ~ fi mney aan EM ety PTA CARA pom . oo” >} i t ( HY 50955 Docld: 37105805 Page 6
ACCOMPANIED BY SCOTT Ss. BRECKINRIDGE, JR. , DEPUTY INPSECTOR GE? TERAL , ENHO NOCHE, ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR, AND GEORGE L. CARY, LEGISLATIVE COUNSET, Mr. Colby. I have an answer to a few of the questions that were raised at the meeting the other day and there are a couple of clarifications I would like to make. One, with’ respect to the security investigations in the United States. The question Was asked whether we ever used private investigators, and I said we normally used our’ own investigators. We have some relationships with private investigatory firms which provide cover for our investigators and, secondly, we have a few firms which we Cwn which are proprietary’ if you will, whereby our investisator S appear to be private. I said that in the past it is. clear that on occasion wea did ask for private investigator firms to help us to some degree. It was usually the one that was giving us cover, and . + for reasons of overload we asked them to have their own people to do a few of the investigations. My General Counsel says that this is illegal. I have a strong questicn about its propriety, if not legality, and I am undertaking to review this matter to see whether we can not just eliminate that practics entirely, continuing the proprie- tary and continuing the «se cf Private investi igators as ceverr Photocopy from ee I. &. "Se C mi as , is ’ aul oa : Gerald Ford Library pM HY 50955 Docld: 32105805 Page 7
| 2 But I did want to clarify that. I think “I mentioned it 5 last time that there have been occasions on which this was 4 done. 5 Chairman Church. Mr. Colby, would you in connection with 6 your review of this matter supply the Committee with the sve- 9 cifics in those cases where the Agency has in fact engaged 8 private investigators to do Age ney work? 9 Mr. Colby. “I will certainly try to, Mr. Chairman. 2 10 confess this may be a tough job to locate every case but I certainly will do my best, il 12 ‘ Chairman Church. Will you provide the Committee with the 4 : 7 3 “os f 13 opinion of your Counsel with respect to the legality of such? 4 . . & Mr. Colby. I will. r 14 , “a5 Chairman Church. Such use of privates investigators? Mr. Colby. Yes. 16 1 Chairman Church. And then I would ask the staff also furnish the Committee with a brief on that guestion so that we 18 ; . are~fully advised with respect to the law. 2 19 . 2 : 3 Mr. Colby. Right. 5 20 ; The second subject, Mr. Chairman. Senator Nondale asked 2 ai : ; = for our command and control regulations for the approval of z “R22 , a. covert action projects. These were supplied to the staff on e 23 . ‘ 5 the first of May and are available to the staff. ry 24 ° Thirdly, £ was asked .if Mr. ‘Willian Harvey was removed « 25 mF ORN ° Q ee a PES Aap? one + PED } Qiery ns an ee, G* RAL ee “A . , \ we Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 32105805 Page @
HY 50955 10 11 12 13 14 15 16° 1? 18 19 20 al | lana in February of '67 he was ..---* - - Howard Hunt from “July ‘62 to August '64 was assigned as a from the Agency because of his involvement in the assassination plans ‘against Prime Minister Castro. . ms The facts are-that in June 1963 he was assigned as” "PS gay cay say SS reassigned to CIA Headquarters. He retired voluntarily under our retirement system on 31 of December 1967. If I may, there is a reason why he was taken out and if I could go off the record and mention that to the Committee. it is a matter of his privacy. Chairman Church. Very well, off the record. (Off the record discussion) Mr. Colby. - Back on the record. Senator Schweiker. asked me whether Howard Hunt or James MeCord were in charge of Mexican overations at the time of President Kennedy's assassination on 22nd of November ‘63. Section Chief in the Division of Plans Directorate, which is now the Operations Directorate at CIA Headquarters, which had ¢ - no responsibility whatsoever for Mexican operations. Senator Schweiker. What were those dates again? Mr. Colby. July '62 to August *64. Senator Schweiker. Wasn't he at some point in Mexico City and in charge of that office? > Mr. Knoche. Way back in the '50's he served ir Mexico ‘City. Way back. He was not in-charge. SUERALS _p “ ft ( u . nee me Fy yg bea Photocopy from ret C9 ga hy . Gerald Ford Library Got? os ee La Nes [2 ry iH Docld: 32105805 Page 9
HY 50955 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ae) 24. 29 4} Affairs. mr. LOLDY. Ne Was & case oLtticer then. Senator Schweiker. So that is the period you are Saying he had no jurisdiction in any way with Latin America or Mexicar “s Mr. Colby. No, he was in what we call, and we have since changed the name, to Domestic Operations Division at that time, our operations here in this country, and that is a whole different subject I would have to explain some day. Mr. McCord from June '62 to June '64 was assigned as a CIA Security Officer in and he had no responsibilities for Mexican operations at that point. Senator Morgan last time asked what information was given to the Warren Commission concerning Agency assassination plans concerning Castro, and I have been advised our records do not indicate that the Warren Commission was provided with inforna- tion on this subject. Allen Dulles, of course, I would notes, who was the CIA pirector until the fall of '61, was a member of the Warren Commission, but beyond thet fact I have nothing I could offer. And then who made the decision not to provide. it, if none was given? ‘our records do not indicate that there was a CIA decision on this matter not to tell the Warren Commission. I could add that I beliave the relationship with the Warson Commission was handled by one ef our Sta AS ORR ; os a" “ Photocopy from . i = o\ Gerald Ford Library TEP CIT EAP Pee 2% cs} - 2 2 tet a St ban ae B Y Decld:32105805 Page 160
~~ eee ee me ee -~——- Me Smee Re Eo Oe oe EEN Ne de GE ee WL LL S¢UL Lt ALAC LY 1 - 2 I cannot say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation 3 systom was such. 4 | Chairman Church. What vas the name of the CIA agent who 5 was given the responsibility for liaison between the CIA and 6 the Warren Commission? | y Hx. Colby. To my Knowledge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca. 8 Chairman Church. ‘here is it now? 9 “Mr. Colby. He retirad at the end of December of last year. 10 He remained working for us for a few months. I think he is i retired, I think he is retired. I believe he is still in ‘ae the Washington area. . 13 Mr. Knoche. Yes, he is still working with us. 14 Mr. Colby. Still working with us to help on the transi- 15 tion of the whole counter intelligence program. | 16 Chairman Church. why did he retire? 19 ; Mr. Colby... That was the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, and | 18 the facts of that case were that I had haa@ some professional 19 | aitfeiences in the organization with Mr. Angleton as to the 20 way the counterintelligence business was run and the way the 21 Israeli “account was handled. I believed that it required a 20 higher degree of coordination of the other elements of the 4 93 Directorate and of the Agency. We had debated this on various 24 eceasions in the past. I dia reorganize that staff in 1973 anc 95 took a number of functions cuay from it. The PE SURED ch? Photocopy from TOD Ge ° ny ce 3. Gerald Ford Library “ AoW he 4 + ! HW 50955 Docld:327105805 Page il
Gt Ry cm 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 Re 23 24 25 endeavored to open up the Isracli account to a better relaticn- & + ship with our other Naar Eastern activities. We @ebated this over many months and on several occasions. We could never really agree to it because he insisted on the importance of retaining it where it was. Mr. Angleton had done a very good job of establishing that liaison years ago and knew a lot of the senior Israeili who were involved in it. I believed there was inadequate coordination in the Arab areas. Also, I believed that there was a undue degree of compart mentation of that staff, that it needed more interchange with our other divisions. We debated this and discussed it and I set as my time limit for this discussion the end of December. because there were some very substantial retirement benefits that people would loose if they stayed after that point. Then unfortunately the Seymour Hirsh acticle of December 22nd cams to.our Attention before it was actually published, and so I brought Mr. Angleton up and said that I was going to make two -basic decisions. I was going to move the Israeli account fron his control and I was going to put some sucessor leadership into the Head of the Countorintelligence Staff. I said I woul offer him a post of tying together some counterintelligence doctrine, he could stay worxing with us. He dia not have ho fs ORG from an he! ¢ Photocopy {2 a Gerald Ford Library e Ay CEE eu rm rR 1S z . ry Vase Dak Ms CSes i; ae J | HW 50955 Doecld: 327105605 Page 1?
10 ial 12 | 13 14 “5 16. 17 18 19 20 ra 22 eo 24 ao Soman one teehee ak Se Wonca tO retire the opportunity was there, ; chose-to retire. I insisted that I talk to him before the Seymour Hirs~ article appeared... © Knew it was coming. I . didn't know what it was going to say. I wanted to make clear between him-and me that the decision was based upon our long- | standing discussion of how to run that particular activity. The question then came up who would be his successor and Mr. Rocca was his Deputy. There were two other officers who were possibilities. One of the officers, Mr. Hood, had said in early December that he planned to retire at the end of December. The other two, Mr. Rocca and Mr. Miler, were informed that they would not be the successor Chief of that stafé£, shod were offered a chance to stay on in their then current jobs. | They chose to retire. All four of them agreed t6 stay with us on a consultant basis over the next several months to help us on the transition of new leadership into that job, and they have done so. Chairman Church. Well, without getting off the track, I. just have further question here’ in connection with Mr. Angleton himself. | Is it true that he is still being paid as a consultant? Mx. Colby. I believe it has droppad off,.Mr..Chaimuan. . He did help us for three or four months but I believe that Lt is terminated. It is about time to terminate it, I know, ard whether it is on this particular av ba Nea A Se Li Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 13
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L NE Set oOurseives about six month period where we would hive 2 to “- . | | | . tJ 3 ~ Chairman Church. There is no, plan to retain him indefi- 4 nitely? 2 5 . Myx. Colby. Absolutely not. It was to help us get over 6 this transition and phase him out. Chairman Church. Very well. Senator Mondale: I asked for vouchers on payments with respect to assassinations? Mr. Colby. I am looking for that. I don't have an answe for you yet, Senator. The request was also made@ whether we had any information concerning plots to assassinate Chou En Lai. We have reports . Nene of two such examples, incidents, both conducted by the Chinese | | Nationalists withcut our prior knowledge and without our | participation. | One in Aptril 1955, an Air India aircraft crashed at sea off Indochina after departing from Hong Kong. Several Chinese communist de2legates for the Bandung Conference were on board and it had been rumored that Chou En Lai would he on the aircrart. On the lith of January 1956, the British Colonial Office - evidence that the Chinese Nationalists had bribed a Hong Kong airport e»vployee to place a time hemb on the airplane. The Photocopy from era as, Ds ery pans Gerald Ford library «bh GE” OLE dad H HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 15
HW 50955 wn pay Gt a 10 11 Le 13 14 15 1? 18 19 20 al ‘and the US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft employce Mah Bn EN re me a ee oe mor me rg re wey ae he Ne tee wee eee te a re 2 oe ne nn) had flcd to Taiwan. We had nothing to do with that incident and frankly heard about it after it cccurred. In the.fall of 1956, a senior Chinese Nationalist GFficial| Neer ty informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National planned to assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to cambodia in November '56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest of the Chinese Nationalist officer sent to Phnom Penh to supervis the attempt. We learned of this after it had happened and we had nothing to do with it. ' We had a relationship with the Chinese Nationalists intelligence Servica over the years and. they clearly have done things without our knowledge or involvement, and in a number of areas, but we have also worked togeth2r on some areas. &} hese are two that were separate. Aliso I was-asked to look at the vhotographs of Howard Hunt and Sturgis that appeared in.Nowsweek some years ago. We * e . obtained this photograph from the FBI last night about 5 o'cleck. We had not had it before. We had a copy of the Newsweek edition. These are photeygraphs of Howard Hunt in 1949, 1950 and ne only photograph we have of Hr. Sturgis. c L961. This is It is taken out of the Newsweek. We have had no connectien with Mr. Sturgis and so we have ee Photocopy from \ Gerald Ford Library Va Docld:32105605 Page 16
LO 121 12 13 14 15 16° 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 295 a Seerwererweree eenorenereneee” a RAR OT Te swe reve seupuay 2U 10 15 Subject to the problems of it. We had our Photographic experts and analysts and so forth iook at these two individuals here who were picked up. We examined theo o1n in ‘Considerable detail, and talking about the ‘61 Hunt photograph, comparing it with this, and this is the photograph ,Newsweek photegraph. You-will see that there is a lot of sortor fundamental differen neces in the kinds of - “a appearances they have, different characteristics of the individuals. With respect to Sturgis, of course, we are not as confi- dent because we don't have as good a base to work from in cur comparison but at the same time we see differences there also. Now, we further looked, had one of our disguise people -- we obviously have people who can disguise you -="the rea wig eipisods. It wasn't red, they in nsist, it wasn't ill fitting. - That is the thing that chey get upset cout. But they say that o it would not be feasible to have them actually in a disguise, have these individuals actually in this disguises, that it is too big 'a jump, it differs Senator Huddleston. How about the size of the individual are they pretty close? Mr. Colby. These two are. ie looks Like a shortor man fron the surroundings. And Hunt is abovt medium height, rathe: than this short. ‘ Mr. Knochs. Hunt is five foet Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library FOP Py Cpe erty raers : medaka ta t! HW 50955 Docld:32105605 Page i?
LO a 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19° 29 21 235 24 25 wenn te voMeG Ata Uk GndtySas ana they really were able to do a pretty good job on Hunt and, what they do is identify certain key points, make measurements and put adjust- ments, the same thing we do for the satellite photography in terns of these measurements, and things like that, and ccmpare it in that sense, and their conclusion: is that clearly. this is not Hunt. They are absolutely confident that this photograph is not-Hunt. They are less confident that it is not Sturgis because of the base on which they are operating, but they thin! it is not. | | I point out that this analysis was done overnight, about 3 o'clock in the morning. This is Sturgis. Mr. Schwarz. And to the right?- Mr. Colby. This is a newspaper photograph of Hunt; a recent one. These are sort of Agency photegraphs of him when he was an employee. Senator Hart Of Colorado. Were those men ever identifiea by the Dallas Police? “ Me. Colby. They must have booked them or something if they carried them in. I really don't know. If they took them in I would assume they would have had to book them. Senator Hart of Colorado. that are these pictures on the lower right and left? Mr, Colby. These are the blowups of the particular ae . TUR photographs. i ox. gv. ( wt . “iY Photocopy from iT PSI iL CPS Ae Gerald Ford Library ef A Ae bea Nib Nn a HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 18
Senator Hart of Colorade. Not the one you had earlier? 7“ 2 Mr. Colby. They are different. 5 Senator Hart Of Colorado. They ara different angles? 4 Mr. Colby. This is reversed. 5 Senator Hart of Colorado. They are different photographs? 6, Mr. Colby. It is reversed. . ; a Senator Hart Of ‘Colorado. No. They are. not A and B ever 8 reversed. | 9 Mx. Colby. . They can do that kird of a turn through the - 10 Senator Hart of Colorado. They can twist the photographs se exound? | le Mr.’Colby.. They can -make it appear at a different angle. 13 Senator Hart of Colorado. - B at least is a totally dif- a ferent pose. They turned his mouth down. His eyes are closse 15 They have really done a job if€- they changed B to that lower 164} right. 1? : Mr. Colby. They can change them, honest. 18 Let me get my brief on that and I will answer that 19 question. 20 They magnified them to the same scale using the eves and 21 mouth. The contrast and texture differences were minimized, 2 continuous tone photographs enployed and angular compensations ! : . . 23 were. made to offset errors incident to the different heads. 24 Thay can mix chem around in that kind of fashion. 25 Senater Schucilar. Were these men Estained? If they vcore Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Decld:321056805 Page 19
Hy ps Gt in 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 al detained maybe there are photographs from their detention. Were these men arrested? + Mx. Colby. At the time we have had to work on this we haw just looked at the photographs, Senator Schweiker. I assume that is where they ere going to be detained. | Mr. Schwarz. Wasn't the same analsysis done for the Rockefeller Commission about two months ago? In other words, there has been an analysis at least once before last night, hasn't there? a Mr. Knoche. Not by us. Myr. Colby. ‘Perhaps by ere else. Chairman Church. Mx. Director, that is a different photograph. Mr. Colby. It does look like it. Iwill answer that question next time I coma up. Chairman Church. All right. How can we follow up on the identity of these two people in connection with the Dallas Police? Would that be done through the FBI? Mx. Colby. FBI. I could ask or you could ask, it might be better if you ask. Chairman Church. Well, I think we should. I think these should be marked as Committee Exhibits and staff should ba instructed to follow through with the PBI to get what further information there may bt about the photographs and these two - FORD Photocopy from “fs a Gerald Ford Library WES LD Cy = CP? fay i >| ~e ios x wa ut 50955 DBoclId: 32105805 Page 20
+ i £ 2 ‘Senator Schweiker. Did you get the other vhotogra wh the supposed Oswald photograph leaving the Embassy? 5 4 Mr. Colby. i don't have that with me. It is in the 5 Warren Commission published report. It is in there, 6 Senator Schweiker. It is im there? 7 Mr. Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to g conceal where it was taken but it was -- 9 Senator Schweiker. It is in the Warren Commission? 40 Mr. Colby. ° Yes, it is in the Warren Commission. 11 Just one additional matter. ‘ 2 ‘ Chairman Church. Just one thing I would like to say to you, Mr. Colby, before I forget it. You have made reference 13 14 to the Israeli account and the special way that it had been ‘as handled under Mr. Angleton. Before we finish our review with 16 you of covert operations we vould Jike to have a more datailed statement of that matter. 17 Mr. Colby. Right. 18 . 19 “ Chairman Church. And I think you should prepara to 20 discuss it with us and we will have further questions to ask you in connection with it. el I just wanted to give you notice, Re . 23 Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a 5 covert action but that is all right, no problem, I will cover 4 it. —— 25 photocopy fr ; Gerald ford Libra ~ fet a A WA Le Uh? HY 50955 Doeclad: 327105605 Page 21
“20 HY 50955 =~? oD LO il 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 el 22 230 24 25 Vilete city COUECH, ALi right. At some point thén in our investigation? ~ Mr. Colby. Sure, no problom. The only other one thing I would like to suggest for the record, Mr. Chairman, with respect to tho discussion of the attempts made against Mr. Castro, in no way justifying them. My position on this is quite clear. I do think it important to put that exercise in the context of the times, which was the times of the: Bay of Pigs, which was a decision made byt the Government, The Cuban missile crisis, and following that, a program approved by our normal covert action approval mecha- nism to try to generate an overthrow of Mr. Castro from within Cuba by assisting various groups to go in with Sabatage and by putting economic pressure on the country, and so forth. 2 : ¥ f That went on for a number of years after the 1961-62 episodes and I think it does put a cover of policy attitude tovara Cuba p y and toward Mr. Castro that is an important factor in evaluat-~ ing the thing, without in any way justifying the particular attempts to assassinate him. Senator Hart of Michigan. But was there any evaluation ‘done at or about the time of that Cuban missile crisis? Mr, Colby. There was an evaluation done after tke Bay of Pigs, a rather intensivé Investigation Internal Security Branch Review of the activity and then the Cuban missile exisis came along shortly chersafter before anything very much - . . . > 1p8 et . é ~ ¢. Photocopy from op EEN [> CONSE Ta ia . BI zg ithe a: = ° ~ Gerald Ford Library Bed “ SORE e 2) Decld: 32105805 Page 22
get going. “horeafter, however, a numper OL prograuis were 1 2 conducted; which I am sure the Committee might wank a general 3 summary of. <i am just giving you one sort of a paragraph A summary of it, which were aimed at putting economic pressurs 5 on Cuba in the hopes that this would put pressure against him 6 and lead to its disorder and problems there and, secondly, tc 4 encourage revolutions, sabotage and so forth, from within 8 Cuba through a variety of programs of propaganda, support of 9 exile movements, landing of teams on the coast, things of this 10 nature. . | 11 Chairman Church. The aifficult with this is, as I see it} 12 although, what you say is true, once an agency begins eovensag? 13 tn assassination attempts the disease spreads. Your own " testimony shows it spread at least as far as the Dominican 1s Republic and we are going to get into closer guestions on 16 other matters such as Lmumba and Chile. vs So that t-don't think this issue can be confined really = to the emergency that dia in fact exist between the US and 18 og Cuba and the seriousness of that emergency at the time. | a 19 8 Mr. Colby. I agree with you, “ir. Chairman. I am against 5 20 . - ‘s¢ and have been against it for a long time, but nonetheless gh é I think in fairness to the people involved at that period I zi 22 ra - think it is important to give total content. é RO : Bi Chaiyman Church. Yes. Ps 24 ; e nx. Schwarz. | < 25 Photocopy from Demag gy ae Neeany res Gerald fordlibrary beg” teat lasa HW 50955 Bocld: 32105805 Page 23
LO 11 12 13 14 15 16. 1? 18 19 20 21 22 24 20 Lo determine, assuming internally thecClA might have contemplate additional efforts to assassinate Castro after the Bay of Pigs, after the missile” crisis, it would not have acted unless direct by the very highest authorit ty, would it? Mr. Colby. That is not that.clear, Senator Hart. 2 thine the evidence we have is that the then Director was vot acer] of some of these activities and, therefore, one would have a very difficult time saying that it was pursuant to a specific authorization. It was consistent with an overall policy which was the point I was saying, but nonetheless I think the spa-~ cific action we cannot Say was approved even within the Agency “at the Director level. N Senator Hart of Michigan, Is there any indication that the Director, who did know of at least an earlier attenpt -~ is there any indication that following the Bay of Pigs, or - following the missile crisis, he explicityly brought the sub- ject up for review? ¢ - Mr » Colby. There is one documentary evidence that Mr. McCone dictated in 1967, I believe it was, in which-he recount a -being informed of a meeting, of an inter-Agency meeting at which the subject of assassination was raised, and he made a particular point of indicating after the meeting -~- he was not at the meeting; I believe, but he ae of the meeting and ho made a particular point of saying. he disapproved of thi Photocopy from : - HED [> C S Ct. be py Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 24
i 3 3 4 5 6 9 8 9 10 12 : 12 2 N a 13 S x : : 14 15 (16 17 18 ; 19 3 20 2 3 23 i 24 ; 25 and did not agrea with it, to the other members. Senator Hart..of Michigan. : Who wasvat that meeting McCone heard about? | | Mr. Colby. vhat was the meeting we were talking about at the last session, Mr, Schwarz. You brought up a new document which was Mr. McCone's dictation of recollection of '67. Mr. Colby. Yes; I think you have that. Mr. Schwarz. That I have not seen. . I know we do not have that. | Mr. Colby. I am sorry, I thought you aid. Mr. Schwarz. Could that be supplied? ‘Mr. Colby. No Problems yes. This is our document and - - Chairman Church. will you supply the Committee with thea document? - Mr. Colby. Yes. Excuse me,’I beg your pardon. He states in '67, at one of these meetings, about this time, fr recall a suggestion made beifig made to liquidate top people in the Castro regime, _ including Castro. I took immediate exception to this suggestion stating that the subject was completely out é bounds as far as | ' the US Government and CIA were concerned. The idea should not be discussed nor should not be discussed nor should aN , ° 7 + < in any papers, . is Shh we) < Scnator Mondale. Mr. Colby, the other aay when you oo ys | : ook Saree Ge EI i) OF Go on hr ‘Photocopy from og! aa rors) Ar tae hug 2b Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 25
1 tastified there was a momorandum that you gave us from I thin 2 ‘Mr. Osborn, which objected to a memorandum by General Landsdalc 5 wiilch referred to assassinations of political leaders, in a ' memorandum regarding Operation Mongoose, which Was Cuba. And 5 it referred to an attached memorandum which I think you said d msl was the property cf the FBI. , | . 6 s the proparty I. oo 7 Mr. Colby. Of the National Security Council. 8 Senator Mondale. NSC. 9 I gather you have a cepy of that, but you don't Feel authorized to let us see it? LO . 1 ; Hr. Colby. I do have a copy of it. The understanding ae: we hava had with tha other agencies is that each of us gives our Own material but we refer to the other agency for any 13 . Gocuments belonging to the other agency. 14 sO. Chairman Church. Well, it is very difficult for the 15 Committee to operate that way. I think that since the Comnitta- 16 |} -is-antitled to this information, that when it is pertinent 17 . and as we proceed in our hearings from one subject to another, 18 , | . We ought to bea able to secure the information without having 19 . to go back’ through executive channels. 20 . Mr. Colby. May I undertake to get the permission to give el - . it to you? I will undertake to do this today. 22 Chairman Church. Any observations that the Committes 23 wishes to maks on this kind of a problem? 24 It is ths first time it has come ‘up. 25 I amar gereerra eyes ee | . Berea OMS ue 3 - -- Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 DoecId:32105805 Page 26
Senator Hart of Colorado. Is this the understanding we 2 have had or not? 3 " Mr. Schwarz. it has beén a total frustration to the steff 4 and I am vary happy Lt has come up here because wa get chased 5 around the corner by one agency to another. It is called the a "third agency rules." It was intended to have nothing to do 7 with Congressional hearings. Obviously, it had to do with 8 declassificaticn to the public, and it. has happened to complete 9 delay our ability to get information bacause we go at one adency 10 and then they determine that it really isn't their document | ii or it mentioned soms other agency, and then we have to go to 12 the other agency. | 15 This is an example of how frustrating it is. 14 Senator Hondale. Have we tried to gat this document fron 15 1 tha NSA? 164 Nr. Colby. No; this particular document had just come up 1? on Wednesday -- 18 . Senator Schweiker. Doss the counsel heve any suggestions e - 19 |) as to what he feels the Committee position should be in this £0] area to enable him and staff to do an effective job? 21 Mr. Schwarz. I think the Committee's position ought to be t 22 | that pertinent information should be produced by any agency 25) that possesses it, and if they wish to inform another agency eA et ey ae mene a4 that thev are Aoing it, then that is their business. But I awe 25 | think they should have to preduca it if they possess se eT i™ an > [ aa ad ~ - mt OI a aNubala B Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Decld:32105805 Page 27
> ? t > ‘ i 2 2 e ' ' 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20. 21 22 23 24 25 HY 50955 Bocld: 32105805 Senator Mondale. * 4 Apparently this memo fron “eloge refers ; . 4 J back to ths mseting about which Osborne memorandun ai che Lansdale -- ‘. Hr. Colby. The series of two or three meetings at tha time, yes. Senator Mondale. I think this is very importent becauss apparently this was a Meeting at which MeNemara and Rusk were present, and apparently NcCone was present, so we had all of the top principals. At least ona of them. . t And they discussed assassinations at Mr. Colby. Senator Mondale. that neating. And then Osborne cama back with a memo which is now part of the record. | Mr. Colby. I think it is Edwards in that case, Harvay, excuse Me. | Ha came back with a memo which Senator Mondale. Harvey. the Diractor supplied, objecting not to thea assassination but ¢ to putting it in writing. Chairman Church. Of course what wa don't know is whether the assassination or subject-of assassination that came up at this meeting was conjecture or whethar it had to do with a Fevelation of actual attempts thet hae involved the CIA or that it had to do with an ongoing assassination effort by the crn. , cot bh, ' . from ~ otoco om | ' Gerald Ford Library Lu FOR3 Senator Nondale. Yes. fo ¢ . - ° fap ss MORN OU mba rae = 3 tf tag seca t nat oY POL taka Ld | . ns ye Page 278
Hy > an es) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16. 17 18 19 20 21 22 25 Sensitivity is not apparent on the face and we assume that this gets out of the compartment it might give problems that the particular case if something ‘Particularly sensitive is. involved Chairman Church. All we know is the subject of assassina- tions dpparently came up in the course of the meeting. Mr. Colby. Mr. Chairman, as one of the agencizs involved, if I could offer one explanation for the Third Agency Rule éven in this circumstance. And I.am particularly interested in this because sometimes our documents have material whose will be handled in certain compartmented channels, and if it individual at the other end wasn't aware of. That is tha basis for the rule. The thought being go back and ask the originator, and he has a feeling for that and could make the Chairman Church. I would suggest, Mr. Colby, without binding ths Committee to a precedent, with respect to dealing with the Third Party Rule, that in this case you undertake to secure from the NSA ~- Mr. Colby. I will. Chairman Church. -~ its. permission to turn this particular document over to tha Committes so it may be made a part of thes; hearings. 3 Mr. Colby. I will endeavor to do that today, Mr. Chairmen Senator Morgan. I am going to inquire from Senator ae Mondale what memorandum were you rea dina about McCone and ‘the group being present? — ua Pm curipag Ty faep * \ <a) G wa tex bk cd 1 Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 50955 DBoclId: 32105805 Page 29
HY 50955 10 ll l2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 el 22 235 an 2 Senator Mondale. We have a Memorandun, it is sion | from ME. Harvey. Do I have the Wrong ons? Yes, it is dated, I wili show it to you, in which he objects to —~ Chairman Church. What is the date of it? Senator Mondale. 14 August 1962. , Senator Morgan. Do wa have that? Mr. Schwarz. It was shown to us on Vadnesday, marked or deemad marked as part of the record, and Yeturned to the CIA who returned if to us today. ‘ir. Colby. I have another copy of it. Senator Mondale. It refars to a Meeting in Mr. Rusk's office at which presumably McNamara and Rusk, I gather from the a later memo, and MeCone Ware prasent, and it says this. : "I called Lansdale's office and in his absence pointee-oest to Frank Head the inadmissibility and stupidity of putting this typs of comment in writing in a docunant. - The words he objsctad to were including liquidation of leadars., I advised him as far as CIA was concerned we would write no document pertaining to this and would participate in no Open méating to discuss it." I read that to mean we will go ahead and do it but we don't want anything in writing and don't want to be in a meeting where it is going to link. That mates e lot of Seng2. Ne living politicicn wants to bs associated with an assassination, #ver - . an Son fry oe . ae noe : ea egy = - Photocopy from YK ena CEL TN Gerald Ford Library " Decld:32105805 Page 360
10 el 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 ' 23 24 25 HY 50955 wp re . i if he wants someone * assassinated, I think that is COMMON Senge. That ‘is why I think these documents are so crucial. Chairman Church. o£ course they are crucial and wa must have them. The ambiguity, however, that we have yet to clear up is in the third Paragraph, Senator Mondale, where the memorandum reads the question of assassination, particularly of cn ie Castro, was brought up by Secrétary McNamara at a meeting of the special group augmanted in | Secretary Rusk's office in August. — tt was the obvious consensus at that meeting, in answer to a comment by Mr. Ed Murrow, that this is not a subject ‘Which has been made a matter-.of official record, the subject being the question of ‘assassiration. Now, that leaves us still without any documentary proofs that it was revealed at this mesting that the CIA was in fact éngaged in an effort to assassinate. | Senator Mondale. Was Lansdale working for the CIA at this tina? . Mr. Colby. Pardon? Senator Mondale, Was General Lansdale working for the CIA at this time? Mr. Colby. General Lansdale was Assistant to the Secretary of Defensa, not CIA, at that time. Por 33>. Senator Mondale. Had Lansdale been with the CIA? Mr. Colby. oa was with cra in about 1952 to about Miss, a ‘ § Pa ia hed ri Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Doelda: 327105805 Page 31
el 10 11 12 13 14 16 16 17 18° 19 “20 HW 50955 21, 24 25 |} more or less. . Senator Mondale. During thea Philippines--~ Mr. Colby. During the Philippines and in Vistnem at that time. Then he left CIA. He was a Yegular Air Force of fficer all this time but he was assigned to CIA for the time he was in the Philippines and the time he was in Vietnarn. He then reverted to the Air Force and was an Assistant to the Secratary of Defense until about 1964 or 1965, ‘Then he went out to Vietnam where he was an Assistant to the Ambassador, not working for CIA. We were associated with him but he was not a CIA officer at that time. Senator Mondale. Do we know what his job at the Pentagon was? | | Mr. Colby. It was Assistant to the Secretary of Defanse, Iocan't tell you exactly what the job was entitled but he was active in the Secretary of Defensa's participation in a variety, you might call it a 40 Committee types of Operation, I think he probably was most cognizant of the varicus 40 Committee >- Senator Mondale. If he were involved with that, he would have close liaison with all members of the 40 Committes, including the CIA? Mr. Colby. Yes, sir.- Chairman Church. I would like te call your attention also} 4 j to this Sentence. , Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library rea git os meypye 1 it te tia Sabu | bf Docld:32105605 Page 327
10 a1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ‘pl a2 24 25 I ‘took careful notes on the comments at this meeting on this point and the special group augmented in not expecting any written comments or study on this point. Thara, again, the ambiguity. It is within the range of the possible that one of the ongoing efforts of the CIA was in fact raised and discussed, It is also possible that the question of assassinatin Fidel Castro -~- Senator Mondale. Do we have those notes? Chairman Church. I was going to ask that. And that it was agreed that no study or review of this should be’submitted as an abstract Matter, should be submitted in written form. - So we are left without an answer to this question. However, with respect to the notes that are referred to hera, can you tell us whather those notes |sxist? Mr. Colby. ‘f don't know of any, Nr. Chairman. Chairman Church. He said he took careful notes. ow . Mr. Colby. I don't know of any but I certainly will icok. e os Mr. Breckinridge. When we reviewed this problem in 1967) meee te ° ’ : re oe ms Fags we found no such notas. M5 ayy ; ah Senator Huddleston. Let me inject a thought or two along this line. It sears to me like one of the saindgs we are going *o has Lo dstermine as we go slows is as to what extent there was OF Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 DBocld: 32105805 Page 33 —! ' : ee ee
Cl LO il 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 20 el 22 235 24 aa) there is a standard operating vrecedurs of your Agency an effort not to make notes, an effort for certain individuals ™ not to have certain knowled {p Q by design. fh For instance, I was reading your menorandun here date 1 Sune 1973 in which you ara reporting On a meating that occurrs You make a point to say that you b briefed someones seatay, The word “oraélly" is in there -- assuming that for the purposs somzona should know that you did not put anything in writing or you did not give him a written raport. You also say that I personally manaced to avoid gaining any nol edge of what precise actions were taken, I think a reasonable inference there is that there is a deliberate on your part hera ~~ and maybe this is standard Operating procedure -= for you not to gat specific information so that you always will be in the posi tion of not knowing some- thing. Mr. Colby. ‘I don't recognize the reference. Certainly, I think in past years there ware Situations we did not want - to commit to writing. There is a great deal of effort made by us to what w « . ° call compartment information so that it is known only to certain people and not known to others. The compartment is still to be open at the top, however. nere are things that I purposely try not to know. I don't want to know the name of an agent in the Soviet Union. I have . ’ . FeO Cities Vy + am | ; . . "EEO Qa SS ai . Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 34
HY 50955 10 li 12 13 14 15 '16- 1? “18 20 21 22 23° 19 the so-called 694 pages. \e absolutely no desire to learn his name because I don't need to know that information. Senator Huddleston. Here we are referring to action in this case and not individuals. Mr. Colby. I don't vecognize that. I could perhaps put it in context if I could sea the memorandum, | Me. Schwarz. Perhaps we ought to mark that memorandum. Senator Huddleston. Memorandum for Mr. William BE. Colby I thought it was by Mr. Colby. | Mr. Colby. tam sorry. Senator Huddleston. Someone within the Agsncy apparently is informing you-about sométhing and the subject is special activities. I don't see a name on it. It has information in it about both the President and Attornsy General being involved in briefings. Mr. Schwarz. I think for convenience of reference we ought to mark it as an exhibit Letis number as today's number, and we have put in the aa three charts so far, and wa will call this, which \ enn tmerren © June 1973 memorandum for Mr. William E. Colby, subject special activities, from stamped pages 09457, 00458, and 00459, of fo) _ (The document above referred to was, Marked Colby Exhibit to. 4.) Mr. Colby. i recognise what that is, Senator Nuddleston. | rm) Cy pat .f Photocopy from ie whe 7 ae “— Gerald Ford Library e Decld:32105805 Page 35 is the’ 1 7
The reason it was addressed to William E. Colby is we 2 were going through that period in the middle of 1973 where I > was technically, T guess, Director of Operations but had heey 4 nominated to kacome Director. This was the kind of thing that ° normally would be addressed to the Director but we had an Acting Director, General Walters, but it was pretty clear I 7 waS responsible for making the machinery run. and we had a lot 8. of things around the Agency addressed to me and signed by me, 9 I balieve this follows a conversation EF had with a Mr. LO Walter Elder, who was an Assistant to Mr. John McCone -- he ii was Executive Assistant when he.was Director -- I think Mr. 12 Elder told me that there were certain things that he knew of 15 in the background that related to this effort of identifying Ce i eer a 14 various questionable activities of the Agency, and I asked 15 him to go write them down so we could gst them into the 16 || Inspector General's report. 17 |. . Senator Huddleston. The only question I raise, I don't 18 want to get off into the contents of a particular memorandéun, ¢ ; ~ 19 but the context with the area you ware pursuing, just whether 20 or not standard operating procedures would require at times : 21 there be a deliberate avoidance by certain people in the Py ee Agency of facts and whether or not there is a great body of i . 4 ‘ + a . * 5 a ? 25 decisions that are made and implemented without anything written } ° . . . i 2G dowr, so that there would never be any documentary evidenca Lo, Fans , 25 of it? 7s a . iz * ta at Photocopy from ; Py OY Ty ee . a Niey oal 2J cia etbw wa bi Gerald Ford Library HWW 50955 Docld: 327105805 Page 36
HW 50955 10 11 120 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 25 24 Mx. Colby. Well, I think that you certainly can say that : 7 there is an avoidance by & lot of people of learning things that they are not authorized to know. I mean the more loyal in a sense of our employees, say chat they have authority to know what it ‘going on in, say, Cuba, they don’t have a right to know what is going on in, say, China, and they rather carefully keep themselves froin learning what is going on in China, I think that is a pravalenca. | I think the question you are asking, however, is whether we are trying to keep activities off of paper and it is pretty clear that.the assassination story was essentially kept off \ the paper - . . And I would think that is about the only one. No, the drug thing. I assune some of that was kapt off of paper? Mr. preckinxidge. Yas. Mr. Colby. The lesson that I have frequently given to my colleagues in the bureaucracy is that howaver hard you try to keep it off of paper, you will not succeed in a bureaucracy, - . . somebody will write it down and, therefore, it is a totally feckless exercise to preéetand that you can keep it secret by not writing it down. But the fact is there were situations in which a conscious effort was made in the past to keep things off the record. Senator Huddleston. .To sum up, you, as Director, with tha exception of individual nemss for which there would be nO_“g, Fag> . >) ld ae eu Pan rs ‘eae reg fr"5 SBE shah fli’ fv i Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library \ i of i 8 Docld:32105605 Page 37
10 li 12 | 13 14 15 16, 1? 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 particular value to you and no advantage to you knowing, except for that you make no deliberate effort not to know about ~ operations? ay Mr, Colby. No. As a matter of fact, I take the opros position, Senator. I say that to my subordinates and have reiterated a number of times, I cannot be subjected to surprisa. You have got to-let me know the things I ought to know. And i { I have undertaken the same obligations to my oversight comnittes for example, that I am responsible getting to them before they hear about'it some place else. Senator Huddleston. The other is in this inquiry. Can the Committee expect that every effort will ba mada to supply to us information about various things, even though they may not be written down? . Mr. Colby. You have my ‘commitment to that effect. Senator Huddleston. Going further and looking through the files for notes and documents? Mr. Colby. It is my hops, Senator, that I can help you on this investigation rather than defending myself against you. Senator Huddleston. That is all. Mr. Colby. That is what I would like to have the relation- ship, that I am trying to help vou do this investioation. Chairman Church. We want such a relationship end we" are trying to work it out. ; . Ne 2} Mr, Colby. I Knew you do. You have sald if a number cf 35 . ® ta be MU Ee od Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 DBocld: 32105805 Page 36 aie aoe | Gey Py Crear cas Photocopy from
1 tics and I agres with you. . é Chairman Church. Now, Senator Mondale. 5 ; Senator Mondale. The memorandum from John McCone Kar af 4 we received this morning, dated 14 April, 1967, is eddressed | to the Director. Was NcCone an’ employes or related with the CIA at that time? Mr. Colby. No, he left in 1865S. Senator Mondale. - So this Was a memorandum from a person 10 | no longer with the CIA, as formex Director to the.current 11 | Director, which begins "no memorandum can be located covering 12 the August, '62 meeting." . 13 “That is the one that earlier says the question of 14! assassination was discussed. However, it is highly probable 15 that one exists. 16 Now, I would likes all documentation, records, and notes 17? that bear on the question of what McCone was referring to, 18 because I gat the impression that the then Director, Mr. Hel 19 Mr. Colby. Yes. 20 Senator Mondale. -~ was reviewing the question of document 21 tions and records affecting that maeting, or the question of ~ assassination, and I think we nead to know what transpire 23 | what was haopening then, what kind of responses ha received. < Me. Colby. We will’cevtainly give you thet. TI can give ens 24 25 you a basic explanation. _ far mu oe 7 aan i. , i A fa a : Photocopy from WH 50955 pDocra:321098t9 Fogg dihygry NN
IN HY 50955 Cet This exercise stemmed from tha revelation in Jack S Anderson's columns, I belisve, of our relationship with the ~ Hafia figures at that time. This then generated the request L . aan Ve to Mr. Breckinridge to do an Inspector General's report of this whole subject, which he did, and ‘which wa will cartainly . . Oe In the course of it, and with the publicity, Mr. McCone, who does maintain an occasional contact with the Agency, he is a friend of it and an ex-Director -~ I see hin every now and again and try to sort of keep him up with what is going on in general terms without gatting into political or sensitive . Matters or anythin “= but he doas maintain this contact and I am sure that somebody made contact with him or he made contec with the Agency about the Jack Anderson column, and thet then generated this particular memorandum. Senator Mondale. And there was an Inspector General's . ONE tn study done at that time? \ Mr. Colby. Yes, sir; and you will get access to that. Preece eet et ee rete ee ~ Senator Mondale. Can we have documentation as to how it was originated and the response to what was done? Chaimnan Church. Yes, we should have that information. And I might say that you are aware, no doubt, that charges have been mada that Gocuments have been destroyed in the CIA which may have been connected with the general subject of CIAL. or . Hy ORS Ay o£” . rd involvement in assassination efforts. ix % - ‘ fos ~” —_ : ssi Be: Photocopy from eC {3 ¢ 5! ie ‘2 es ‘o wre : &/aasatke. b. o Gerald Ford Library . whe, wee Decld:32105805 Page 460
HW 50955 Gt 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 “who wera-involved, -_ ComaLtt Can you tell this documents have been destroyed? Mr. Breckinridga. I think we can talk in terms of what we know is there. On the Castro assassination, the involvement with they | Mafia, there were a few memoranda in the Office of Security, - and I think you. have copies of those. TN er eg On the second phase of that, there are practically no records at all and our investigation at that time was made entirely on interviews. Based entirely on interviews, an attempt to reconstruct » ry that activity. ‘The final action which involved a Cuban by the name of Cubella -~ Mr. Colby. This was the Cuban major we discussed last time. . Mr. Breckinridge. Started in the minds of tha psoples Was an attempt to generate an ernal political action, revolt, and the records are very full bécause there was no attention on the part of the people who were involved at that time thet that vould bs an assassination in the sense that the original work with the Mafie was éngaged in record.and that and thers is a full exists today. oa oss . . _ _. In tha case of the Dominican Ripublic, this develop ed. ia reas. . ‘ ae OR Let ma finish. fs S . Jas 3] , > ! rt ir eT EME VRPT = mek “ . < Photocopy from ma a Gerald Ford Library Docld:32105605 Page di
I wild go back to the Cubella case. 2 . In the instance of the Dominican Republic, tha record 3 ” was very Full then-and it is still very full today. TI am 4 a z certain that vecord is complete. 5 o Again, in the minds of tha people who were involved, they 6 . ° drew a line between the support they gave to the coup group i . . . and conscious association with assassination as such. Those 8” € . ; records are completa and those records were developed at the 9 . +g . . time and they were retained. It was in the period of the LO , og i Mafia was involved where psovle Knew the purpose was assassine- tion. ' 12 as . . The records:are practically non-existent and I believe 13 - . they never existed. 14 ; Coa Harvey, who conducted the second phase of that, at the 15 .. . + as . time of our investigation had a handful of cryptic notes that 16.4 . we tae . only he could interpret. We couldn't interpret them. And 1? it is my understanding that those notes no longer exist. Thev 16 were retained by him and he brought them in at the time that 19 we were questioning him. We was then on sick leave prior to saa retirement. Those notes were totally unrevealing. ee I think that those records are in the same state today __ AOE ‘ that they were then. iy 25 | There were none in ths Castro affair except the res nits 24 F ; eek igqi hy 1-7 VT. he afi of our investigation invelving ¢ 26 The Cubella case is wuil.. That case did progres tothe Wa. rian BO earn Photocopy from * Bia af Cah’ a Gl Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 42
10 al 12. 13 14 L5 16. 17 18 19 20 21 a2 24 point that on the very day of President Kennedy's assassination a man was meeting with Cubella in Paris, and in response to the time of the investigation We understood he accepted but I have since been told he did not accept. | It was a ballpoint pen converted into a syringe for injecting poison. Subsequently, arms were handed to Cubella by a Cuban refugee in Madrid, in the very early part of 1965, and two. catches were put ‘down by boats off Cuba for Cubella. I think he may have recovered ona of those but not the othsr. records on that ere pretty completa, ; So, generally speaking, on those things where the Agency was involved, with the exception of the association with the Mafia, where from the beginning the inte ent was assassination, the records ¢ are complete, and I think that if people look at those they will find this is so. - Cubella's request offered him an assassination davice that at = Mr. Schwarz. Is the understand ing that all records dealing NOE eer en, with this Subject, whether they are in Inspector General ” reports or underlying documents, would be produced for our > Q ra Fs inspection? . . fo* oN ~ : iz = Mr. Colby. Yes. ae . is £ a * . * > . ~ If I may ask only the Committee's consideration of the normal treatment of compartmentation and soma discussion of possibly some individual names in it that wa would hope that we might be able to handle very privately, or nec essary, Or even om 2B ry ee rus LGN i I prea _—_ ~ . Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 43
LO 11 12. 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19° 20 21 Re 24 25 laave out. But the normal procedures, Chairman Church. Very well. Now, Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Schwarz. Just to tidy up one matter. Lat me mark as Committee Exhibit 5 the John A. MOCO to the Director menorandun of April 14, 1967, . a . (The above mantionad document was marked as Colby Exhibit No. 5 for id & ntification,) Mr. Schwarz. Might I cons down with you on this document and wa will look at it tegether? Mr. Colby. -I have a copy. “Mr. Schwarze. -As of April, 1967, Me. McCone was no londar at the Agency, was he? Mr, Colby. No. Mr. Schwarz. Was he then in his position with Itt, or did. he have sone other position? Mr. Colby. really don't know. Mr. Schwarz. - In any evant he wasn’t at the Agency? Mr. Colby. That is right, Mr. Schwarz. The thing thet is curious about this meno- Yandum, with raspact to the state of the record, is paragraph One, which reads es Follows: howavar, it is hicnly prohabls tha+ One exists," . aN ~ - oe . oo o Photocopy fro ES i [> Ss ie os ? (5 vi = Sh Gerald Ford Library ru tN ad Lene ous i 2 HY 50955 DBocld: 32105805 Page 44
Gt 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 20 24 HY 50955 bBoclkd: never asked him. But I don't bel Wow, Hr. McCone, was not in the Ayency, is writing a . menorandum to ths: Director, who wes in the Anency, referring «+ a search by or On Dshalf of Mr. McCons. Now, did Mr. McCona hays documents outsida the Aqencv, or how do you explain? Mr. Colby. I don't believe he has any documents. I have ve he has any documents bs ty outside of the Agency. ck h fv it f ie Mr. Knoche. tir. McCone wrotanm eo mamorandum while con Q {0 Agency premises. It was.during a visit to the Agency and h fad rey = had tha benefit of his ex-staff essistant, Mr. Walte ” «3 r Eldar helping hin ion. n doing a little research in this connect be [te el Mr. Colby. All that says is that they hadn't locatsd by then. I think we have located some since that time, Nr. Schwarz. Pickinc up on a@ question of Senator "art of Michigan, he asked you whether thers had been evaluations in.connection with the Cuban missile crisis, and then you testified about evaluations post-Bay of Pigs and rather continual & Were 4 evaluations ef the subject of Cuba, But take it tho not evaluations or re-evaluations of the subject of assassinati Mx. Colby. All I can say is I think that question is-Tl rr; : SR) a little obscure. 1= I know that after the. Bay of Pigs failure there was an___ a. 7 wmhatowe vers then to @o and a@ progrem wis | fhishie hs Photocopy from | : | 2s Dacha SPT AEN URES ; 32105805 Page 45 Gerald Ford Library ‘c
Prone {Area 202} 544-6090 WARD & FAUL 410 Fiest Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ii 12 13 14°: 15 16 1? 18 19 20 aL 22. 293 24 25 % developed. And I am speaking at second hand here. Duta proqr: Was developed of kssping soms economic pressurs on Cuba, and ~ that was a@ national policy, not just a CIA -- keeping an economic pressure on Cuba and continuing to sunvvort the ’ various elements which might eventually lead to a change pte pd ~ the Cuban government through soma overthrow or otherwise. I think soms propoganda programs wera kept up, some exile activities Were kept up, some train ing of teams to be infil- trated into Cuba wers Xaodt ud, soma sabotage onsrations wera continued. and thosa continued over the following savearal months. -~~ ZY cannot identify be Right after the 1962 missile cris right offhand here any particular review of that -- but I _ know that that was a subject of 49 Comnittes considsration at various times. - Whethsr that includsa assassination or not I cannot sav. My guess, as I say, is that if John leCone didn’ know about it, it was not covered in thoss Ssiscussions because it would be very hard to cover tham without his bsing involved. Chairman Church. Ars you teliing us that the much publi- cized investigation of tha CIA, which teok place following the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and as I remember this review was ordsred by the Presidant in order to Gatarmine what had gone wrong and way, and it was a matter of great urgency and impoxrtanes te the . , wn, £95 Photocopy from mae I CEE CATT pene . cbt RN Gerald FordLibrary = 4090" botavy ple y ra Doeld: 32105805 Page 46
government at that time -- are you telli 1 2 . , course of that raview the Agency's invol vamsnt{ in the the j assersina- 5 tion efforts against Castro never cama to Light? 4 , Mr. Colby. I just don't know, Mr. Chairman. That is 5 ‘ the answer I have to give you. I do not know. 6 . s,s I believe the Inspector General report after the Bay of 2 Pigs does not mention it, does it? 8 Mr. Brackinridga. Wo. 9 Mr. Colby. The report of the Committses thet looked into 10 . , it, General Taylor, and tha Attorney Gensral and somshody aise -- 12 . . ° . . there Were three members of it -- maybs Mr. Dulles. I don’ le believe that re eport Mantioned it. a ‘Chai Church h core wirman urch. Do wa have @ copy of the Taylor Ruoort? 14 ° see Mr. Colby. I ‘chink it has been made available. Or is 15 ; that a third agency problen? 16 . Mr. Schwarz. That is another frustration. That ons has bésn dsnied to us on tha theory thet it is part of the Kannedy 18 . Co Library and, tharsfors, we hava to go through another channel 19 . to get that. 20 . Dozs the CIA have a cony of the Taylor Report? 21° . , ; . Mr. Colby. 2 @Gon't believe we do.- I know we looked for 22 a : + = : Md T it @ couple of ysars ago and at that tima I was told we didn't at 25 . have it. ; I hata to say hers urnier osth wa ae not hav: onr, but T 25 . . : know IT tried to get ahold of it and was told ia coupis-of yee re ste ps . ris Be wn K YTD Copieary ites . t. Photocopy from Bata La ELE | 3} a Sf Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 47
Crt LO li 12 13 14 15 26 1? 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 ago that we couldn't have ons. Bue theres are lots of drawers in those safes in that building. ~ Iam not trying to evades the quastion. I an trying to say I don't think we havea one. It could be. We have a copy of our own Inspector Genaral's report ai that tims. 4 Mr. Schwarz. Does that contain any mention of the assassination subject? Mr. Colby. No, it doss nok. Mr. Schwarz. Do you find it puzzling. that-the CIA doasn't have a copy. of the report designed to review its activities in the Bay of Pigs, a report that led to substantial Presidential changes in tha instructions with respect to your jurisdiction? Mr. Colby. Yes. ir, Schwarz. I mean, it is an important document -- ie. Colby. Mr. Schwarz. “~~ relating to the CIA. Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. - Sena tor Schweiker. I wonder if Mr. iicCone has a copy? iy. Colby. I would doubt it. Senator Schweiker. That is why he cama in, because of that Mx. Colby. Rouchly, yes. Chairman Church. In tas coursa of “the investigation that took place, this investication that led to the Taylor Report, - : hac tock place in tle SD les7ath of the. Bay of pigso ato Photocopy from 8 ty ny o « Gerald Ford Library ° MW Mev alae vay vo aduns Sorbaca ‘ HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 48
Hy Lot 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 L9 20 22 22 23 24 25 Were records kept, that is to say -- Mr. Colby. Of contributions? Chairman Church. No. did the investigation involve a written records? Did it involve tastimony taken under oat} and transcribed? Is there raw matarial relating to that investigation to which this Commit thea could gain access? Mr. Colby. I don't know the answer «+o the cuestion, Mr, Chairman. Maybe Mr. Breckinridge can help us. Mr. Breckinridge. I am not familiar with that study. Iam familiar with the approach thet was taken at the time within our organization when the Inspector Gansral.-- I was not involved .in that study but I have heard it discusses how they approached it. Thair undsersta nding of the Bay of Pigs problen was the . “2 Overall invasion plan and organization for that ana concentrated rr on that. ” . ~ By way of explanation for the omission of reference *o the assassinations, so faw people knew about it, and I think 4 fh 1& came to no one's attantion -- simply did not discover it at that time. And it may not have been by way of explanation, {> not a justification. It may not have been associated in th fainds of the people who did know about i* with thea inquiry into the military operatior {uv ‘ 4 nix. Schwarz. fir. Bissel knew azbon® it ard he was cerbainiv (hs FOR the main architect of the Ray of Pigs; right? FD. . ‘ mt Pa -s oe — oy ; r a i te Riksta ‘ _ ae Photocopy from 2 t (Ce He) ererCer ieee i . , 2 Se Gerald Ford Library ~ . 50955 DBoclId: 32105805 Page 49
1 Mr. Breckinridge. Right. # Mr. Schwarz. And Mr. Dulles, at least the records Va : _ ee _ ° put in on Wednésday, knew about it and he was sub: stantially + involved in the Bay of Pigs. hose gentlansa surely would haves ° been questioned by General Taylor and Attornay General Kennedy - 6 ; Is that fair? 8 Mr. Colby. Certainly, yes. But again, if tha focus was 9 on the military operation, it might have been that that other 10 operation was not involved in it. Ai Mr. Schwarz. Ths racord further shows that on Mey 7, 1962, 2 21 a mesting was held with Attorney General Robert Kenn sedy in 4 : . . t e s is which the contemporansous document describing that meeting a . + bee : iy. + J 14 indicates that nea was not told thet thera was a continuing 15 and ongoing ovsration, but rather was told of something which . ee 16 but allead a projec: He was not called an assassination but was called project. 2 17 as told of somathing which was raferred to in the past tens: 18 is that right? e ” . “ s 19 Mr. Colby It was in the past tensa. ‘“hether there. wes 3 . . ; : e 2 * . 2 . * « « spas e G 20 any other discussion in that Meeting on this subject ws just oC ¢ . 8 fl |) don't know. z i £ . | z Re Mr. Breckinridge. J think I can interpret what happened. d 3 ‘ : ‘ ee re id e a tly: 2 ao The peoples who briefed Attorney General Kennedy are ths e = - : . . . ° . a . cas 5 2A ones who knew about what wa call the firs st nhas2 of the opere ic & S =e ; | - FO 45) with the Mafia. ery Photocopy from TERT D CLEOPR rer if toa hee ee bo oem mene dud Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 50
Ce Te i ; . ’ a Colonel Edwards, who was Director of Security, under whos. 2 a , . . os . sudvarvision the first portion of that ectivity was carried on, had withdrayva from-.wit. 4 | . The operation, whan it was reactivated later, was reactive. On a comnpartmented basis, and Colonel Edwards did not know . 6 . ° about it : Mr. Schwarz. Even though it continusd to involvs ‘the 8 | wafie until early 1963? 9 Mr. Breckinridge. That is correct. Colonel Edwards x 10 longer knew what was going on. when he briafed the Attornay ii General hs did not know that this second operation, this 12 reactivation of the operation that had formarly run under his 1s respons ibility -- he did not know that it was ongoing. 14 Nr. Schwarz. Who was raspons ble for the se election of 15 Colonel Edwards and Gensral Counsel Houston as being the 3 . . “ 16 2rsons who would go to brisf Attorney General Kannedv? p y y 1? Mr. Breckinridge. I am not sure I know that. 18 Mx. -Schwarz. It would hava besn someona of highsr Fl 19 authority within the CIA; is that correct? 20 Mr. Breckinridge. We have tried to det termine. 21 ‘Mr. Houston, if I understand it, fesls that he would not ; 7 221 ‘have done this unless he thought the Director knew. 23 Me. Schwarz. Knew what? 24 Mr. Rreckinxidge. Knew that hs was going to do this, But: . aoe ~ oR t 25 . : Lo eee sd +o the Director about it, ! ‘ he did not talk HW 50955 Doctd: 32g 0A Pord ABbfaryt Ws pur 9 ease ER 4 i un yh
I gather that it is not all that clear in Colonel Ldwards'! either at this point in time. 5 ; Mr. Schwarz. ‘So someone sa@lected these persons to go 4 . be Re Xd ‘ and brief Attorney General Kennedy, number one. 5 - . } 2° ke a - * Number two, they did not know thse plot for assessination . 6. . “eo ela : was ongoing, although in fact 1 was? 9 se lee L . Mc. Breckinridge. Correct. 8 tne x : . é Me. Schwarz. Mumbar three: therefore, Attorney General . — 9 Kannedy was given the impressi that whatever wa 1.0 . . 4 = te Lek? was Over; 1s that correct? 11 _lix. Breckinridgs. I think that is correct as I reconstruc: 127) sé. a 1s Mr. Schwarz. Can we determine than who was responsible 14 for selecting thoSe persons to brief Attornsy Ganeral Kanneady, 15 instzed of including in the group other parsons who knew that 16 the Nafia part of the assassination attempt was ongoing? 17 Mr. Breckinridge. I don't think that we can now. 18 As Z sav, there is no writtsn racord. od 19 Mr. Schwarz. Who could it have been? Who was in a 20 hicher position of authorit in a position to make a decision gner p el as to who should brief Attorney General Kennedy? Re . Mr. Breckinridga. I would assume that Mr. Bissel could 25 have. ‘ ‘ : 24 tir. Selviars. Wes Aa still in the Aquncy ia Mav of IF°62? 25 “« os « te (Oo Fas . Ne. Brackridges. IT don't: know. T think ha may hav Vein a iar CCT TD Photocopy from oa 1 cae seo kay 2 b HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 52 Gerald Ford Library
Cyt 10 11 12 13 14 15 16- 17 ‘18 19 20 21 22 24 25 HY 50955 Docld: 329 ANG Fore Libra, on my analysis of what hanopened and not on clear facts. it. Hr. Houston, I have been told, believes that tha Director left by than. * May I reconstruct because much of my understanding tee i?) on fv (3 149 2 The FBI approached Colonel Edwards when their investigation and incident in Las Vegas eventually produced his name, and his conversations, I think, wara with the General Counsel at that time. If cannot reconstruct’ beyond that so I really Can't give you an answer to the spscific question. But the initiatiy Fs came fron tha FSI. Colonel Edvards and Mr. Nouston discuss+:i must have known. . ° Mr. Schwarze Which Dirsctor are we talking about? “Mr. Breckinridge. Whoever the Director was at that tima? Mr. Colby. By that time. Mr. Schwarz. Of what agency? Mr. Colby. CIA. That would haves basen McCones. ve Mr. Breckinridge. Hse overated on the assumption that ti! 4 HceCons knew. Mr. Schwarz. Knew what? Mr. Breckinridge. Knew that thay were going to brisf the Attorney General. , ie. Schwarz. About? Mx. Breckinridge. The record on this is very unsetisfactery sid I can't clarify i+ for you bacauss wa hava baen trying £9 ts find out when ! Mr. HeCone first learned of it after tha fact, Photocopy from “OD rele "P | & _ ia fs wae 2 th Lis
@s it was, When People discussed this with ona another, what thay Rm ele Ee TO wD Fe) ~ convey<sd to ons another eccurately as to what it was they were 4 ; oo ct discussing, the record is Simply not clsar and I don't tnink 5 ; . . ' that we can reconstruct thet Satisfactorily today. 6 i ; . . Mr. Schwarz. Is Mr. Edwares Still aliva? 9 é Mr. Breckinridge. Yes,-he is, 8 . : . oe . Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Houston is still alive and is in Washing- 9 ton, D.C.? 8 30 . : z= a s Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir.. 11 \ ‘ ., . nee . ee Mr. Schwarz. Mr. MeCona is Still aliva and is in -- ; 12 : . Mx. -€olby. .Californiz. 1s ‘Mr. Schwarz. Was Mr. Helms the successor to ‘Hr. Bissel? i4 Mr. Colby. Yss, sir. - 15 Nx. Schwarz. Well, let's leave a place in tha record 16 Where we will insert it was either Mir. HeCone or Mr. Bissel 1? who had the job of Devouty Director ‘for Plans in May, 1962. 18 Mr. Colby. Lt certainly wasn't Me. MeCone. 19 Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Heims or Mr. Bissel? 20 Mr. Colby. Yes. 21 , 22 23 pa Photocopy from . Gerald Ford Library . . ; arya : oe Te Pay a5 ™ vt, a OE . Cras fread ee eit co bta ty i HY 50955 Decld:32105805 Page 54
' : 1 & 10 LL 12. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ea 23 24 25 Chairman Church. . now suggests a cover-up, another cOVer-up. ~ You Ses, the state of the record It suggests Phat. those who ware Selected by the higher authority in CIA to bri cb £ the Attorney General had on the life of Castro that head been concluded. It further suggests that they had. no knowledge of contin: efforts then underway, even though pvrssumably their superiors did hava such knowledge. This lsaves the Attorney General ir a position of being told about tha bast program and not bsing told about. the present program, and we know that he £& we to certain assistants of his that he hed put a stop to assassination attempts on Fidel Castro and hs may have bean left with the impression, as a result of this Meeting, ¢ there were no further attempts. Hs may have said he further attempts. We don't Know. But clearly he vas rot tole that there were further attempts then underway. s Senator Morgan. Were we told yesterday or the @ay bsafors Yesterday that he knew of the Cuban majors' operation? we Mr. iy Schwarz. We were not told that. knowledge limited to ay atten: later said Mr. Breckinridge. I cannot clarify the quastion completsly . but I can introduce @ littla bit more. ‘When the discussion occurrza Mr, “ . . ba with General Carter, who was: they ths Deputy Diractor creed ‘, Mr. Schwarz. Which discussio- talkird about How?" fu are wa The discussion about going to the Atto Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Hr. Breuckinrilge. a Vee y wet Sar GA dae | HY 50955 DBocld: 32105805 Page 55 penn Houston did ga and tx1¥ #3 san Nae r we =v
YSN 1 General. 2° _ To, go, “bee k, Row the question arose, and it gces far afield, 3 John Roselli, who was the Chicago member of the Mafia who 4 arranged the introduction of Giancanato the Cuban syndicate 5 head, threugh .whom they initially tried to run this operation ~~ 6 Giancana had a personal love affair with a well know entertainer y who was then in Las Vegas, and@ she was sispected by him of then 8 having an affair with another well known entertainer. Giancana went.to Robert Maheu, through whom these intreduc- a] 10 tions were first made -- Mr. Schwarz. Introduced to the Mafia personnel? ll 12 Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. 43 Mr. Colby. ‘Between CIA and the Mafia. 14 My. Breckinridge. And asked Maheu toarrange to have the 1s room of the mals entertainer in Las Vegas bugged. They hired 16 a.private detective who then did this. The rocmmate stumbled 7 on the equinment, -the private detective was arrested, and the 18 FBI investigative trail led from the pivate detective to Maheu 1 to GiGneana and eventually to CIA. Giancana had insisted that 20 Maheu help him because he had helped Maheu with the introduction 21 to the head cf the Cuban syndicate, and Maheu had then agreed | 20 to get a private detective to do it. 2%" So this arose in the cconateaxt ofa domestic wlolation of 24 wiretapping laws and the PBI was investigating it on that basic. 25 ' Because the trail tee Xo ‘iancana and leselli, who “& Tip. mye “rr 5 ou rem * rane Photocopy from ; - ; “ Te, watt | Gerald Ford Library = BE HW 50955 Docld:327105805 Page 56
10 li 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 | third inember of the Syndicate involved in this, both jf whor were high on the FRI list, as they progressed towards developing a prosecution, they came to Colonel Edwards, the FBI did, and said what is your position on this. The position of the Agency as stated by Colonel Edwards was we did not want them prosecuted because it would expose what he understood to be this operation, | and I guess the time sequence gets a little fuzzy in my mind. | Mr. Schwarz. Did he tell the Director of the FBI the nature of the operation, or simply he told him it would concern Some sensitive matter? Mr, Breckinridge. He told him it was an intelligence operation in country, and the Mafia was being used for that purpose, So in the discussions as it progressed, it dealt with the wiretap prosecution. Colonel Edwards in discussing it with us in 1967, according to our notes, said that they briefea the Att torney General all the way, but at that time Colonel Edwards, I think by the time they did it, Colonel Edwards thought} it was over. So the Attorney General and the FBI were not tole the cOmplete story. Mx. Schwarz. They weren't told the most important part of the story, and that was that it was continuing, | Mr. Breckinridge. They didn’t know that, that is correct. Chairman Church. So you have here two violations of law. Apart from what was told to the Attorney General, you have two violations of law. One, the wiretap, it was an illegal operation ne, 4 a ; Fre ‘ey [D Cee re : soa wNabals ; me zi ant Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Doecld: 32105605 Page 57
= Gt yo eK oO Le) 10 il 12 15 14. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 1 82 23 24 25 | collchoration on the other subject, and then decision wa We may have three. Second, it is certainly an activity that . oad the basic law prohibited CIA from engaging in, domestic activity. ” Mr, Colby. CIA was not involved in the wiretap. | Chairman Church. As I understand it, the CIA was involved because it engaged a private -~ Mr. Breckinridge. I am sorry. Chairman Church. Maybe I misunderstood. Mr. Breckinridge. We didn't learn about this until after the FBI found out ‘about the Mafia involvement in that wiretap. This was done by a private detective hired by a private businessria: at the request of Giancana. ‘: Mr, Schwarz. CIA agents had committed the crime, in this case, but not on behalf of the CIA, 7 Mr.. Breckinridge. No, no. Mr. Schwarz. Isn't that accurate? Mr. Breckinridge. No. _Mxr. Colby. I wouldn't call Giancana an agent, getting back to our definitional problems. fir. Schvarz. CIA associates, Mr. Colby. CIA instrument. We had a contact with Giancana, obviously, and with Maheu. They decided on their own to do this wiretapping, or bugging, or whatever it was, without our prior knowledge. They got caught. Then they said if this is fully investigated and brought out, it will bring out the CIA = e.. e oe rap Photocopy from aD RAD De ES Gerald Ford Library [ Aa, 2 Poa Mathew dia i HW 50955 DocId:32105805 Page 58
to Left go and bricf the Attorney General to the degree briefed Chairma i | : | | ; n Church. After which the Justice Department dro-y.ac the case? | xe Nr. Colby. It was dropped. | Photocopy from | Gerald Ford Library CUTER Fy G8 ars nana rote GEE Pm HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 59
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 25. 24 HY 50955 Senator Nart of Colorada Was the CIA not concernad thak - Giancana may have told Something about this Cuban operation £o female entarta axner who also may have told the ftir, Breckinridge, Tf I understana What happer d I am now describing what Mr, ‘Maheu said, M having read Some files at the Dapartment of Tastice ————- recently -~ when Mr. Maheu tried to explain to the FBr his” ition and tried to Provida a rationals for doi room of this entertainer bugged so I could fin Giancana had leaked. The FBI gave this the Kind of credit r think it was entiezeh They didntt Pay Much attention to it. This was something he trisd +o dzvelop to justify his involvement, é is no indication that there Sonméthing that he would ere was no instruction for him to do such a thing, ae ~~ . . “¢ and it was for another reason Glancana asked him to do Serator Hart of Coloredo. As far as you cen tall from tha CIA was not concernad that Giancana ana his friend, or her mala friend, may have blown the Cuban operation? Mr, Breckinridge. Who was sleeping Senator Hart of Colorado. It was purely ¢ ¥VLthn whon? Photocopy from C24 t TEED ER Gerald Ford Library aw, navasia [3 u DeclId: 32105805 Page 60
2 Gl 10 et 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el ae ei ww oe : 235 24 understood -- Mx. Breckinridge. I think that is still the cas: LY I would likes Over to brief the Attorney = af to add one further thino. “That Prior to go spsan to General Carter. General Carter said that he Mr. Colby. Agency at that ti General Carter was Deputy Director of the M2. Mr. Breckinridge. -~ he understood the situation and “ e going General, the general couns#1 did in due tima might brief the Director. We don't know that ha did brief the Director, who was than Mr. McCons. Our note Ss written in 1967 say thers is no iudication that General Carter Was briefed on the full details of the assassination plot. General about this association with the Mafia, the indicaztion that rir, Schwarz. K (it fete n be] QO he was tole the full story than sither. Then in August of 1963, the document th Te you providsd for us last time, Mr. Nelms did nov about th Ongoing aperation; is that correct? Mr. Breckinridge. I think by then ha knew that thats” Operation was going. nes Mr. Schwarz. which had been. prepared concsrning the meeting with General Xennedy, Se tha inferancs from that paper racord is that Mr. concealing affirmat ‘+ HY $0955 Docld:327105605 Page 61 So while he did anprovse their going and briefing the Attorney Ha sent to Diractor McCone the menorandun wnich indicated that the overation was complst- moths atal Gerald Ford Library Attorney Telms was ively from tha Director of Central Intsllic2:
w¥ 50955 pocra SSS Gs “iba 65 August 1953 was to the Nirserces from Mr, Nelms, 4 attache: Bp Ay t° (PO oh ry es n Photocopy from (esa? ieG bo in the same way as somebody had concealed from tha Attoracy 2 : . General the fact that the Plot was ongoina. 5 \ . : . Is thata fain. characterization? 4 ' . 5 2 Me. Colby. I don't know. 5 eo. : Mr. Brseckinridga. Could I ssa thse memo? 6 a * e _ ¢ Chairman Church. The mano US2S verbs in the past tenes 7 ) . ; Mr. Schwarz. Tha COVer Memo from Helms to MeCone trans~ 8 My * ” he . tt. a ; Ea mitting a cooy of ‘the Memorandum concarning the Hay, 1962 9 a? 1 a. z. — Mesting with Attornsy General Kennedy. 10 . - : ' Mr. Breckinridge. May I say first I don'+ know. I il 5 a A - car Lp 7 > ’ just call your attention to the third paragraph. . Mr. Schwarz.’ Of the Memorandum from Director Yalns? 13 ss a Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, Ha was then D.D. 14 Mr. Colby. Tha basic Memorandum, of course, Merely 15 referred to a sansitive CIA operation and than in Mr. Helms 16 in the paragraph Says I assume you are aware of tne nature 1? of the operation discussed in the attachment, 18 Again, this was an attempt not to refer on paver to whet ig it was. 20 ir. Schwarz. But tha actachnent refers to it in the 21 past tense, : en. ee , “SN 22 Mx. Colby. I agree. ie 25 Senator Morgan. Who is this memorandum from? ~ a4 Mr. Colby. The m-movanie4 wa ars discussing now of Ne. 25 Cena oe
10 Ll 12 13 14 18 16 1? 1s 19 20 21 22 e a copy of the briefing of thas Attorney General in iiey, 1962, A Senator Morgan, Mr. 3rackinrigcqs, thea trenscript or Ventre ~~ that you were reading from a Faw moments ago, who pranarsd cnat? + Mr, Breckinridge. This was prepared by another insoector and me in 1967. \ Senator Horgan. When you Say there is no indication thet he knew, that is just an assumption on your part, that you don't have any positive evidence? Mr. Breckinridge. That is correct. “Organ. The truth is you sort of suspact they % Senator. all knew what was-going on.” Don't you think that is true? Mr, Brackinridge. Moe, not necessarily. people directly involved in the Opsration, those that were When wa conducted our investigation wa interviewad the availebls, and trisd to reconstruct wnat hannened with then, tir, Bisssl. I did in nterview Mr. Harvey. We submitted this Ysport to then-Director Ialms, one Copy ad only. We did not intervisw hin. Where his nama appeared in «he course of our inquiry We ok “We interviswed different PeOple. I did not interview . put it in our report so that.As would see how the record anos “Ye 7. al to people who epproached it as we did. The axteat of the hnévlides of these diftfersnt paepl. i sy _ .: 7 ae Gir. to assume, arta m wee. Y; ast ssy rae) reconstruc: ner ad . : aa Gerald Ford Library ’ HW 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 63 .
BOS atlases U Vis 1 . Photocopy from T’can't answer your question. Gerald Ford Library 2 ‘ ~ Ssnator Moraan, In Other vords, Lf you di@ett have ° aVidence that they did KNOW, you just assumed that -- you 4 didn't assume that they dian’ know, you just said there is 5 . . nO 2Vidence? . 6. Hy. Breckinridge. That is correct. ‘ ? Senator Schweicker. Lst ma ask tha Question another Way. 8 The documentation you collected and what you do have 9 positively, who was the highest ranking official, according 10 to your records, who knew? it Chairman Church. According to the positive documents 12 that you have of ‘knowledge. 13 Mr. Breckinridge. First, let ma say wa did not have 14 documentation. It was based mostly on interviews, this is Period involving the Mafia. | 16° The highest parson that we understood that knew during __ i7 the First phass with Mr. Bissel. That we clearly did knoéQv———— 18 about ite There was discussion at ona point in which Mr. 19 Bissel, Colonel Edwards, tha two of them, mat with Mr. Dulle 20 ft and had a conversation in which I can bast say there was: 21 doublsetalk as to what thay wera discussing. 22 It is open to question how clearly this was stated to-n~ 25 x. Dulles and whether or not Hr. Dulles understood. e a4 At the Sime chat we ver: makine the iaquixy i was our _ 29 ovinion that tr. Pull.s probaly knew, but Tocantt put it devon HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 64
Hy LO 11 12° 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 that. Senator Schwe ~ recall. ° » GC. He left tha Agency in 1961, When was your investigation? Mr. Breckinridge. And our discussion with Colonel this meeting when it Occurred in 1960, Our investigation Was in 1967, @s I Edwards, who described left us with the i While they had met with ur. Dulles, that not in precise terms. didn't use any bad words, word "“assassina * tion, "but £ ADE the conve 2rsation wa As Colonsl Sdwards said to us, wa ur Castro in-such terms that he falt that they had conveyed messages to Mr. Dulles. Senator Schweicker, then becama tha highest to your investigation? Mr. Breckinridge. he would be tha Senator Schweaicker. Agency in 1961. after that. You conducted an investigation in 1967. period show as to who was the Five years of assassination at Mr. irsckinridqe. But there tf Mr. Dulles did in fact ur highest person at Mr. MoCo Until after it was all over. 50955 DBoclId: 32105805 Page 65 8 yt TOP wy Cr isa Ser an Once “ir, At this point ne did not know until much lator res ay itd i Dulles left 4 is room for doubt, this point. he left the Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library ranking person to know, according What dia’ tha which maant they didn't use the the t =S=SS1f: 2S =y discussed an operation against the Agency, who derstand, tempts went on: oe highest ra uking Person who knew?
10 11 Le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21° 2: . ° 497%, Mr. Colby. We knew in 1963. Op Oey “ Mr. Breckinridge. About a past avent. os Mr. Colby. There was still activities going on. fir. Breckinridge. That is right. Chairman Church. Can we get the answer first? Mr, Breckinridge. ExcuSe ma. I cantt give you 4 more precise answer because sometimes the record that wa were <ble to reconstruct is’ not vreciss and in sone instances not at all clear. We were left with some uncertainty. Senater’ Schweicker. Wouldn't thet ba the kay issues of 4 your whole investigation, and you mzan to say you can'+ +411 : : . wae ré a, - € oN a ° = e : 2 ¢ Mr. Brackinridgs. “lo, sir. , i= =\ “ . ™ 2; 3 na e « “2 are Senator Schweicksr. I am flabbergasted. XU ‘ar. Breckincidgs. Ust me describes tha investiaation. rt ih We Were doing the investigation for Mr. Nelms as tha Director. Mx. Helms’ involvement was something Known to nim and wa ; subnitted our description of what hapvened to interview him in the courss# of our investigation. intervicw Mr. MeCons. Wa did interview the other parties who Were available to us. But when wa gava it to Mr. ‘lalms «he assumption was that he conled complete the gans. In this Ssase, ordinarily, when we conduct an investigatior HY 50955 DBoclid: 32105805 Page 66
i 8 2 i) 4 5 10 ‘LL 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 - Wet a adiathen dite He; photocopy from Gerald Ford Library we could what happened. And the report Went one copy only to Mr.” Helms who hsld it. We hed only one Giscussion. The Inspector Ganzeral then may have had others. We had enly one tr discussion with him, which was when we gave him the firs portion of the report, becauss we investigated three differant assassination Dlans, as We described them then, and our discussic. with him had to do with the epproach we haa taken, and we Séid that wa simply undertook to reconstruct what had hansenead | as best we could reconstruct it. So We Were reporting to Mr. Helms what we had reconstruct 4 without having interviswed him es such. It was in ons cony Only, and quite frankly in 1967 we expects? that it would haves no ourpose other then to tell him what the situation ves for decisions as he felt appropriats. Senator Hondals. Now, vou say it is not clear whet: Dulles knew, but yet there is a mamorandum from Oshorn ‘it—_——— 17 . . an cern = che Exacutivs Director dated 2/15/72, which states, I quote: . ° * . . . - =~ 9) re) rt Oo funte iy n yr i “Individuals who wers aware of thi That is the Mafia projact -~ “were Messrs. Dullas, Bisssl, Colonsl Ming, Colonel "“}~” Shefficld, Edwards, William Narvey, Jamas P. O'Connell, and attorneys for Robart Maheu." « Mr. Breckinridga. Mr. Osborn is writing that on the basis of nis understanding of what Colonel Edwards had to say. Our discussions with Colonel Rewards left us with this un io. rT] tt toe ert aN cee ae core pe HY 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 67
Cot ‘10 -LL 12 13 14 16 16 1? 18 22 23 a4 25 koe bY Colonel Edwards believes that Mr. Dulles understood conversation. that thers was room for misunderst Mr. Schwarz. John Roselli and ask you what it Mr. Breck claridge.’ This of Security describing John Roselli, who is the first of the Menbers of the syndicate who was used to arrange the introduczici- to the head Of the syn dicate in Cuba. . tir. Schwarz. And written when | hr, Breckinridgs. I am not sure. I suspect it a | in 1973 put I would have to check. | Mr. Schwarz. Does it refer to a Castro assassination . | attemot involving the Mafia? Mr. Breckinricg:. Does the wo “assassination” aopear? I think it refers to tha Malta. Mr. Schwarz. Do vou. have any doubt, in fact, «his is . ° . referring to She assassination sffert involving Maheu, Roselli, Trafficante, in connection with Castro? SS “py six. Brackinridgqs. That is correct. , zs a Mr. Schwarz. And doss this dcocumant prepared by thea ae Office of Security state "the DCI was briefed and gave his , approval"? ir. Schwarz. HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 68 Dues fl ls. And who was tha Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library He also said that he enoag anding. is @ memo pra * parad NCL in August in the Office the I show you a documant stamped 0912 1969? headad 04) ed in doubletalk so
h lo: LO 11 12 13 14 15 16 | 18 19 20 21 UI DUGIEd fs ‘ ° Pho E fir. Breckinridge. That was Mr. Dulles. “ Mr. Schwarz. Now, therefore, either Mr. Dulles did approvs which the documant ‘says, Or somabody wrote a document in connection with the invastigation which irresponsibly says ° Mr. Dulles avoroved. Which is the’ case? Mr. Breckinridgs. I don't think that either is necessarily The understanding of the Office of Securlty is that Mr. Dulles doss know or did know. ‘The question that was raised in the courss of our inquiry was thet the nature of the m ib eating as described to us raised a Guestioa cf doubt. That we did not resolve. Chairman Church. I think if We accept your tastinon I alement of doubt as to whether or that there was at least a (p tt not Mr. Dulles knsw of the connection bsatween the CIA and the ‘iafia, and its purpose, to assassinata Tir, Castro, let's get back to Senator Schweicker's question. Aftar Mr. Dulles lef _ a * ° a . Several mors plots were formed involving the CIA and having 9) #4; ch ad te do with subsequant attempts on the life of Castro. - it Now, what Goes your investigation show and what can you  __uf} tell us with respect to tha highast officials in the CIA, following the dsnarturs of Mr. Dulles, who may have had knowledch ’ ie) w tt fv rt pt oO 23 wv oo of these ongoing o or. Breckinridge. Whan the operation was renswed t think it is clsear that-the Director as that tims did not know. © HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 69
nh ll Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 22 10 ul 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 22 RS a4 25 SE ee cee nnneeiee Wad? Din te bake ff . (6 Senator Schweicker. And who was tha Director at that ’ . j tins? . Chairman Church. When was the overation renawed? Mx. Breckinridge. Tha operation was actually reactivated in April of 1962. It was planned to be reactivated prior to that but tha employes who had Yesvonsibility for it did not (t get free until April of '62 when ha actually reactivated it, There is no indication that anyons above the level of Mr. Bissel in 1961, at the time that this was discussed, thera is no indication that anyones above his lavel knew that it was to bs reactivated. This orficer, Mr. Harvay, then took it over and attempted to run it again through the balance ir, Schwarz. Ue did thes at tha instruction of “Ir, Talms, ax. Brackinridgs. Mr. Helms becema awara of this ata later soint. e “Ths confusion, as psarhabs we discussed the other day, Mr. fal elms signed off on a preject thet was originally initiated ae | by Mr. Bissel called 2R Rifle, and 2R Rifle was a projeee Nr. Bissel was quoted as saving was at the urgency of tha- mor: specific than that. Qo white Nouse. It was made n ee comee 2 den't know wheres in the Whi th rea fous ch] s ° fat) ‘GS SR Rifle was described as an executive action cé. 4 rh a oO a . ye oO nm iP] fi he ee it &@ capanility to permit assassinations i HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 70
12 Cot 10 11 le 13 14 15 16 1? 18. 19 20 ei i 22 23 24 25 HY $0955 Docld:327105605 Page 7i US WO eveu Soha Ga a ve them. | ; us Lip, @, . ty . . ~ Mr. Harvey was given the responsibility of this by Mr, Bissel and originally it continued as a Separate action from the Castro operation, but itr. Harvey was also given that Yesponsibility, and for all’ intents and purposes thay became Wedded. Mr. Helms was the parson who formally approved ZR Rizla aS a project. ZR. Rifle had a dual purvose that has not been .Clarified by our inguiry. It aoparently was in fact ussd for urposes, as far as organizational activities want the stated 5b along, which was to and ifr. Nelms, when he o ve approved the project, authorized accounting on certification, which meant that rather than the usual vouchers susportisg uxDenditures, that the off iczr involved would sinply cartify that the money had basen spent and this would bs accactad. It ‘nad a project, amount of soma dollars, $7399 - $10,009 -- somes Of it to include the salary of an agent, soma to includ: . + ° . Operating expenses. So Mr. Helms' main appearance in tha approval cf ZR Rifls h the date when he bacame fee er it doas not necessarily equats w fama )¢ 4 + a * ¥ familiar with the Castro operation. Me. Schwarz. Becausa of the dual purvoss of Rifle, Rifle Means both, rifle files and usad rifles? » ie Mr. Breckinridge, It may mean either or both. Se c it uM o i or i i “a Mr. Colby. Yt is supposed to disasseciadte WTS OS ‘ ee cee MQ FN py
13 10 LL 12 13 14 15S el 22 235 24 25 UGIU DUGIy 88 19 thers is that kind of association. “ Mr. Breckinridge. told you that I would look for whan ‘ir. Helms! nama first clearly appeared and I haven't don: that. Iwas out of town yesterday. Mr. Schwarz. Do you hava che mamo of February 1962 when He, Helms, according to lr. Graar, Inspector General, G “authorized William Harvey by msmo to handle tha project on a spscial basis"?- tir. Breckinridge. “Do I have a ‘copy of that memorandun? Mr. Schwarz. Yes. i Ih fe ~ ib “ fu el jer fp Q ft be) rt ih rr ry pee ts wy Me. Breckinridge. It is in «+h * : be 2b Chairman Church. Mr. Bissal was th of ih iw] (ht * $2 om La G | and nN all is] vf oO ry i] Fly Plans. Ths yvscord would indicats that 4a <M sty Hy A t oO it vf os he ry (i I ity ctivation o fx ths operation to assassinate Castro-in Acril of 1962, and ifr. Harvey, I take it, wes assigned that duty? Mr, Breckinridge. If I may go back, it was in the fall e of 1361. ~ ' ‘. ° Photocopy from . ee oe Gerald Ford Library , HY 50955 Doclid: 32105805 Page 72
. Photocopy from 1° Mx. Schwarz. November 1961? , Gerald Ford Library 2 ~ ue, Breckinridge. I think that is probably correct. [It 3 was in the fall of 1961 that Mr. Harvey was given this assignment 4 by Mr. Sissel. i think Mr. Bissci left in 1962, I am noi sure 5 of the dates, So Mr. Bissel would have known at that time. °6 || But I am not sure after that. 9 Chairman Church. Helms Succeeded Mr. Bissel as chief 8 of operations? 9 Mr. Colby. Deputy Director of Plans, 10 Chairman Church. Deputy Director for Plans. ll Your record shows that Helms had knowledge of the 2R Rifle 7 * . ° . a operation, which, among other things, was to develop an sxe tied l2 3) ’ Pp . 13 | Capability -- whatever that ineans. Presumably that means a 14 | Capability to conduct an-assassination if and when authorized 15 |} by Proper authcrity? 16 . Mr. Breckinridge. That is my understanding. 17 | Chairman Church. Is that.your understanding? | 1s Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, ‘sir. | | . Chairman Church. Do your! records show that, or is that a f- ; 29 || based upon what has been revealed through your interrogation?: ; 21 . Mx. Breckinridge. First, stet me go back and clarify, then go || I will answer this fuestian; S£°1 may « 24 Mr. Helms approved wz Rifle, which the record showshas the 24 || responsibility oF | | essentially. - 25 My understanding, Ero my interviews, is: that 2R Rifle had - a Ce en ee ry HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 73
HY 50955 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Decld:32105805 Page T4 also the responsibility for executive action capability. That is a difficult phrase. | The record does not show that Mr. Helms knew when he approved the projest that it had this dual role. So from that poin: of view, I have a record that shows what the project was supposed to have been as far as its open description, though classified, and the_result of our interviews. with Mr. Harvey which tell the other story about executive action capability. So it does not, the record does not show that'Mr.Helms at that time knew what that was. Chairman Church. If Harvey knew that it had this other aspect, who would have told hin to develop such a capability, if it were not his superior? Mr. Breckinridge. I think that. is a logical. conclusion, bu r was distinguishing what the record showed and what our intervie: developed. ; Chairman Church. Didn't You ask Harvey in interviewing him whethér or not Helms had told him to develop this capabiltt ¥ aS a@ part of the ZR Rifle? | Didn't you ask him who told-J him to develop this capability, or did he do it on his own? | Mc. Breckinridge. Your question is a very proper one, and 6Q my difficulty is with the record which goes back to what Bissel instructed Harvey to do. Mr. Schwarz. Before Nelms took the job,-Bissel told Harvey Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
Phona (Ares 262} 544-6006 WARD & PAUL 410 First Stract, $.E., Washington, 0.6. 20003 HY 50955 10 LL 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2h 22 23 24 29 to take. charge: of the Castro assassination project? “Mx. Breckinridge. Bissel told Harvey to create the execut; action capability. Mr. Schwarz. But he also told him to take charge of the Castro assassination project using the Mafia; isn't that correct? Mr. Breckinridge. Now, there is no record except the record that came from our interviews on this score. All I am trying to do is draw the distinction between what the record shows and what our interviews: developed, and there are gaps in that. ; Chairman Church. Your interviews show that Mr. Bissel, who preceded Helms, told Mr. Harvey to develop an executive action capability, which was a capability to assassinate if and when orderad; right? Mr. Breckinridse. That is correct. Chairman Church. And your records show that Mr. Bissel also Instructed Harvey to take over the Castro assassination attempt, which was connected with a continuing relationship between the CIA and the Mafia? Mr. Breckinridge. I think that is a correct assumption, - - yes. ‘ Chairman Church. Now, when do your records show that Helms ° _— . i aware. of Harvey's whole assignment as given him by | Bissel? sO photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Docld: 32105605 Page 75 i
: | Mr. Breckinridge. I don't have the accurate date. We have 2 || the 16 August 1963 memorandum. I promised Mr. Schwarz that i : 3 |} would try and find the date, and I was out of town yesterday : 4 and simply didn't do it. But I have to go through the rucord 5 || to find the earliest date that we have, and I simply have to go 6 into the record to dig this out. | 9 Senator Schweiker... Do your records show the date of when g& || the actual latest assassination attempt was finished? 9 Mr. Schwarz. For Castro? 10 Senator Schweiker. Yes. When was that timefrane, roughly? | Ll “Mr. Breckinridge. you are talking about the Mafia connecti: ; 12 . Senator Schweiker. No; I am talking about when did we : 13 finally cease and desist in attempting to assassinate Castro, : 14 | from your records? OO 15 Mr. Breckinridge. Let me, if I. may, and I don't mean to 16 confuse the issue -- the Mafia connection from beginning to end 1 was an attempt to assassinate Castro. The operation was called ag off finally in the Spring, perhaps February, of 1963. - 39 Senator Hart of Michigan. What year? . Le ; 20 Mr. Breckinridge. 1963. : : 3 21 Mr. Schwarz. That is the Mafia part? _. | i “ep Mx. Breckinridge. Yes, sir. The Cuballa Association has a “ 23 | €ifferent origin. : 24 : Chairman Church, First, who called off the Mafia operatior S 25 | Mr. Breckinridge. As near as I could tell, Uarvey. Photocopy from WHR 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 76 Gerald Ford Library
s 3 1 <e sa ft a 2 2 we = hd ~ <q o e & cS & 4 Chairman Church, warvey? Mr: Breckinridge. Narvey. Harvey decided that it couldn'+ he succeed, Harvey was leaving the country for a foreign assicnimen: and in conversation with Pselli~ Roselli was the man who was 5 in the Mafia through whon the Agency had continued to work -- g. | and Roselli agreed that nothing was happening, nothing could 7 | happen, and it should be called off. We don't have a record 8 that Harvey went anywhere for approval. This doesn't méan that 9 nue) 11 12 13. WARD & FAVL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el 29 24 410 Fiest Sirect, S.E., Washington, 0.6. 20603 we h3 25 he may not have discussed it, but I don't have the record of Lt, So Harvey in his conversation with Roselli, terminated the operation, last rade meno with Senator Hart of Colorado. The memo which we saw at the session, which I don't know we officially have, Mr. Colby it available to us -- was a wrap-up of the whole thing, or a to the files, and I can't recall now-who did it. Mr, Schwarz. That is the one referring to the meeting Robert Kennedy that we spent some time lcoxing at. Mey - BT Senator Hart of Colorado. That was the Sheffield~Edward ~ which say with the collapse of the Bay of Pigs invasion operation, no further attempt was made with the Mafia. It tied it directly to the Bay of Pigs, Me. Colby.. That was the first phase. There was a second ohase that followed with the Mafia. Chairman Churen. We now know from what you have said that farvey called off the Mafia connection, and we don't know whether Gerald Ford Library Se anaes 4 HY 50955 DBocld: 32105805 Page Ti?
1 ji that was done with the knowledge or authority of anyone more h: ® 2 placed in the cra, & Mr. Breckinridge. I don't know. Prone (Area 262) $44-6000 > Chairman Church. All right, after Harvey left the country 5 |; vno was then assigned to undertake the subsequent efforts again .6 | the life of Castro? 7 Mr. Breckinridge, This brings us to Senator Schweiker's & }iquestion. A man by the name of Orlando Cubella, who had been 9 met in Mexico (City by the Agency in 1961, who had been one of 10 | the leaders of the anti~Batista coups | and held the rank of Major 11 in the Cuban army, that is the highest rank they have, Cubelia i2jwas an M.D. and had been a youth leader and attended youth of 2 z . . c ae . . . . . é 13 |} conferences around the World, and was met first in Mexico City, & < and later he was t in s i i i : 14 a met in Scandinavia on several occasions. And 15 | the conversations during these various meetings had to do with 16 Cubella’ S desire to have a change in Cuba, and the attenst on 17 || the Agency people who met with him to explore his ability to 18 |} Sebstituté a. covernment as well as be able to overthrow the’ 7 cea . n 19 existing government. 3 : - - s 20 . These conversations were very general, exploratory, ana" 3 . nal . § 21 |} Mon-productive. oO In one of the early meetings with Cubella, he taiked about 0 a oz {eliminating Castro, and the’ Agency cmployee used the word 24 Assassination, which was reported back as being an offensive 410 First Street, $.£., Washin 25 Word to Cubella, and instructions were issued ‘that Cubella was Bre are oe Rowe ate a orem Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 78
1 .|/not to be given a mission of elimination of Castro or anyone else, 3 He was met in October of 1963, at which time he made the PUR Lem ag eee 4 || proposai that he wished to have vcapons with which to connmit 5 an assassination, and this proposal was rejected, - 6° He continued to speak in these terms, and finally, I cannot 9 give you the level of approval -~~ that might be at the level 8 jllof Mr. Fitzgerald -~ and I don't recall which job Mr. Fitzgerald 9 ||had then, whether he headed the Cuban Task Force Or whether he 10 jihad become +--+ 11 ‘Mx. Knoche. He replaced Harvey. ; 12 ° Mr. Schwarz.’ He did meet with this man and gave hin a- > ‘ 13 weapon er poison pen with which to kill castro? ® ; < 14 Mr. Breckinridge. Fitzgerald did not give him the pen. 15 Mr. Schwarz. But discussed the subject? 16 . Mr. Breckinridge. twas consicGering the question of 1? level of authorization, and I don't recall. I would assume 18 ||Mr. Fitzgerald was the highest level of authorization that“E a>, 19 know of. —_ E 20 Chairman Church. And Fitzgerald's position at that time?” Oy Mx. Breckinridge. I was questioning whether he had -= he eo had three jobs in fairly quick Succession, Whether he replaced: 9% fHarvey as head of the Cuban: Task Force, then he became Chief of pvt, the Western Nemisphere Division ané then he became for 24 ' é ’ 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.6. 20003 25 fa short time Deputy Director of Plans. Bue he died of a heart c a en Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library e HY 50955 Decld:32105805 Page 79
g 1 attack, “= don't know whether he had at that time -- it Would : 2 ibe in October of 1963. | Bt g 3 Mr, Colby. I think at that time he was cither head of the “ A 4 ||Cuban forse or Chief of the Weste.n Homisphere Division, 5 Chairman Church. Wild you get that for the record? “6 Mr. Colby. Yes, sir, 9 Mr. Breckinridge, The decision was taken to try and give 8 Cubella some instrument, A ball point Pen was designed that g | could be usea as a syringe, Because Cubeélla was a Cector, the 10 || Pen was given to him in Paris on the 22nd of Hove: mber, 1963, 11 | with the suggestion that he use it, ; 12 Chaizman Church. By whon was the pen given? Z . é 13 Mr. Breckinridge. It. was given by a case officer of the g 14 | Agency. In fact, Cubella refused to take it. When we wrote OuL 15 | teport, we thought he accepted it, but I've since learned he | 6 refused it. He said it was not practical. 17 Because he was a doctor it was suggested that he could is acquire the material to Put in the pen, but he refused to accept P ig | t- | 8 s 20 Conversations continued, ana finally the.Agency arx anged : 21 to put down two caches at S@a off the coast of Cuba, one of | Zs 20 which had weapons in it, one of which had just general equipment. ‘ 23 Senator Schweiker, Could Cither ‘of those involve the Story 24 that appeared in the press under Colonel Prouty's' Statement? 2 2s Hr. Breckinridge. No, sir.: . me a L100 Ei adn SE ane 9 TB SR ot PTO, Ewer f Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 DocId:32105805 Page 80 .
Prone (Ares 202} 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, $.2., Washington, 0.0, 20003 WW 50955 LO Al 12 13 14 15 16. 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 senator Schweiker. Did that come later, Colonel Prouty? _ ur. Breckinridge. We still dontt know what Colonel Prouty' Statement refers to. Mr. Knoche. Prouty's allegations go back to 1959, Senator Schweiker. What? Mr. Knoche. 1959, late 1959 ana early 1960, Mr. Breckinridge. We arranged to have a Cuban refugee leader meet Cubella in Spain, at which time he gave him an additional weapon. ‘That would have been in February of 1964, Chairman Church. What kind of weapon was given to him? Mr. Breckinridge. t is my recollection it was a rifle, I am not sure of that. lo Cubella continued to hava conversations and meetings from time to time as he came out of Cuba, and finally in the middle of 1965 the decision was taken to cut off contact with him because there were serious guestions about the security of his organization. He was arrested, I think, I think I have gotten my dates right. It is subject to correction, — He was arrested in the early part of 1966 and tried, made a confession, had a public trial, which was reported in the press, — I wonder if I might check those dates? 1 =. * , \? Nf Chairman Church. Surely. — oe al , eee OO” é While you check those Cates, perhaps Mr. Colby could "oe Zey £5 PLS PS rae Seas Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Docld:32105605 Page 61 4 i rs | |
Phone (Ares 202) $44-6000 10 11 12 13 WAHD & FAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PPR HAE MME G gPatncy TRGB NEIL IS, bedelwe YU mae 25 A nn ane ee ee pgs ee nnnnnnynnnne explain how it was during this period that Cubella was able to return to Cuba and travel to Europe, I assume he was able to return to Cuba? Mr. Colby. WWe-was a Cuban officer at that time, and apparently loyal to Castro. He would go out on various trips and things like that, and we would neet him there. Mr. Schwarz. He was the man who met with Mr. Hunt in Madrid? Mr. Colby. He met with a friend of Mx. Hunt. A Cuban exii met Cubella.in Madrid. That is when the weapons were Nanded over. Mr. Schwarz. Was Mr. Hunt in Madrid at that tire? Mr. Colby. Yes, ; Mr. Breckinridge. No, because this man by the name of Artimo, met Cubella in. Madrid in December of 1964, and in February 1965 he made the Gelivery of the weaoons. Hunt was not’ assigned there until the middle of 1965, after this was over. We don't know where thet story came from. Mr. Colby. Hunt and Artino are very close, and he is ‘the godfather of one of their children, and things like that. He May Nave told him about it, | Chairman Church. During this period you have described, © when these various contacts were made with Cubella, who was _ highest officer within the CIA who had knowledge of these icontacts and wne authorized them to be mada, as far as your Photocopy from ea aoe RR pe En gh PR pena Gerald Ford Library Pe’ FY Gee ry pa N HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 82
1 |linvestigation shows? - 2 Mri Breckinridge. <I don't know the level at which the a & ||} contacts were known, I would assume that the continuing contac Phone {Area 262} 544-600¢ 4 |[were known at a high level, but I have to assume that, and this 5 goes to a point when Senator Schweiker was aSking the question ' 7 6. at the last time. This is the last instance that we know of ? jin which assassination Was invelved,. 8 . | Senator Schweiker. That is, both your records and your ie] interviews indicate that this was the last known activity, 10 |; according to your investigation? Ll Mr. Breckinridge. That was Specifically related to a 12 }Castro, . . > : 3 Senator Schweiker. And that date was when? a i . 9 3 14 Mr. Breckinridge. Well, our contact with the Cubella ¢rous 15 {was broken off in June of 1965, . a Lo te, 16 Senator Schweiker. June of when? i. - Mr. Breckinridce, 965. ; er L? ray BE rldg 1965 oS | 18 T don't want to confuse you, but I would like to intrcéuce a 19 @ consideration. that relates to this, 20 Il -. Chairman Church. Before you do that, I have asked what 2] |Your investigation shows is the hichest officer who knew and 22 Mader whase authority: thése continuing contacts were made, and 23 you said you assumed it must have been known to higher authority. 430 Forst Street, $.E., Washington, 0.6, 20003 24 vir. Breckinridge. I' said that abcut the centacts. About 25 the contacts, I assumed this was known fairly Nich in the Ageney . | eS Oy Qe yr i Photocopy from ue. i) Vyisi oe ea: ‘i wr wis seiaice i Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Decld:32105805 Page 83
Pnone (Araa 202) 5446000 WARS & PAUL 410 Fiest Street, §.€., Wathington, 8.€. 200903 10° 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ee 23 24 25 i 50955 DBocld: 32105805 ‘eu lon Wat a Sa i Chairman Church. The contacts and their purpose? _ Mr. Breckinridge. This is a distinction I want to make, The people who .were involved, and this is difficult -- but their statement of state of mind, and your interpretation, may be different things. But the people who were involved considered that the purpose of the association with Cubella was he was a man who was hich in the Castro government, he was a man who represented a dissatisfied element, he had people who agreed with him, and the nope was that this could be developed into a group in Cuba that in some way could replace the govern- The conversations with Cubella were really not productive, and Cubella wanted demonstration of support, tangible sunsort, and the conversations progressed to the point that he wante equipment with which he could commit and assassination. In the minds of the people who dealt with him, the question of assassination was not uppermost, so much as it was to give hin a material demonstration of support. tt) I don't mean to be trit but the United States or thi Agency has in the past provided weapons of one kind or another to pecple, paramilitary. In the minds of these ceople, however credible to you this distinction is drawn, so assassination became a consideration, but assassination had not been e. objective: UERAL DS, meee yy o. Yoam Sorry, one more point. Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
HW 8 1 : a 2 é 3 é 4 5 S& vi B 9 10 12 a 12 2 & 6 13 a bad : 3 14 15 16 17 18 | 3 19 3 20 8 $ 21 = : 2. Re : 24 > 3 25 that, too? The > point at which they began to provide “eapons to hin should have required higher level approval. 1 don! & know what m the level of approval was, Mr. Schwarz. It should have under the normal procedu~es? Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir, 7 » Chairman Church. At one point a meeting teok place and an agent of the CIA gave him a ballpoint pen that had been special; designed to camouflage a syringe, and gave it to him with the recommendation that it would be filled with poison and used to kill Castro. | . Are you Saying that the agent may have done this without the knowledge « of the Director or the Deputy Director for Plans, someone high in the Agency? ; Mr. Breckinridge. No; I am Saying there should have been was the last attempt of assassination? This developed to the point where asSasSination was involved, and this was the last Such interest that we know of. Senator Schweiker. Are you saying after the incident that Senator Church just asked you about, at that point the emrvhasis shifted fron assassinating him to replacing him? Is that what you are. trying to toll us, or did I misconstrue ~ cote ween: ae nee any, Photocopy from in TES Gerald Ford Library f Te NT Paes ced of‘ HEE? odie sh i ‘ ‘ i 50955 DBoclId: 32105805 Page 85 autnorization. I don't know the level of that authorization, f = merely tried to draw a distinction because it is a question raise | in-my mind, it was raised by Senator Schweiker's question -- when Fe ewe ener
c=] g . 3 lL Mr. Breckinrid ; | ge. No; I am confus Sing the issue by Exying 3 2 to describe the state of mind of the people who were involvea i < 3 the operation. . é , Se E |e .Chairman Church, We don’t even know who were involved Y § |itell us that, | Mr. Breckinridge. As far as I Know, Mr. Fitzgerald woule ? ibe the highest level that I know was aware of this 8 Chairman Church. What was his position? We are back to 9 {| that. te 5 0 Mr. Colby. Chief of the Western Hemisphere Division ll = < & a 13 | 3 -- < FY 14 15 16 1? 18 _° n 19 2 3 3 20 4 3 ae eee S 2 2h g Z| 22 4 . ‘ ~ edi, Prine Z Ro Photocopy from we ey, 5 Gerald Ford Library fee ae & et “J ° 2 oo . 25 ° : : NU * MNT CTEAr) map sink HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 86 ete eo neneakid CEERaagne.
ran o 'S a Sof Gi ° ° 3 4 AS < o ~ 8 ° ‘ a S Ma < =~ 2 c E 10 11 12 13 WAND & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 410 Fiest Street, $.E., Washington, O.C, 20003 HW 50955 -Yationale is difficult, complex, and I have tried Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Senator Horgan. Is hse dead? % t ee. Colby. Yes, sir. ; - Th th Mr. Breckinridge. Problem that you ara having, which is one that we have, is reconstructing certain aspects of this = as s guita frankly, and wa hava attamoted to reconstruct it-by ¢h- record, where the record supvorts it by intarvisws, wheres the interviews can fill gaps, and it wes of some interest to try to get from the psoplz involved their rationals. Ths tO convey that becausé wes brought to my mind by Senator Schweictsr's ' quzstion. @ culturel from . Mr. Colby: “If I could hel ‘Dd +s ba rt ih tn} 'g 5 th ce ch wT pe. 16% icoksd like a vary promising contact within Cube who coulis 7° ~~” possibly replace Castro or bring about his Gisnosition, and so forth, just remove him without any soscifics, win the course of ths conversations, the 1963 Meeting with the ballpoint pen took placa. We don't heave poe i) rh as to who authorized t Darticular aspect. concerning tha ballpoint pan. The fact that we then went on with him until '64 and '65 with the offers of weapons fits into the general support, of that effort ard doesn't - cOincida with the daliberate attsemots to assassinate him, ib O 73 id it ‘could, and our records don't clearly indicat: Sem Py Te ete ET Cote Docld:32105605 Page 87
Prone (Area 2062) $446000 WARD & PAUL S40 First Steoat, 5.E., Washington, 19.6. 29003 Photocopy from way ox the other on that. Gerald Ford Library \ ~ Chairman Church. A cache of weapons delivered on tha sin coast of Cuba hardly constitutes an arsenal by which it réaso=: could be assumed that the government can ba overthrown. It Goas, however, fit into a schame of providing the major ard his cohorts with a capability of assassin ting the Cuban lester Mr. Colby. It al i 0 coincides with the possibility of the first step toward edditional arms. Iam not denying it, Mr. Chairman. I am saying that the records don’t clearly indicate it, ard this gets back to Mr. . Schwarz's original quastion to ma -- can you dafine “assess be cn Ll. tion"? I would respactfully request that I don't get into thet because thers is a question as =6 when yOu ars supporting armed action and whan you ars committing an assassination. Chairman Church. All right. During this whole pzricd We understand that the Director of the CIA, who was Mire. MeCore, Pe 23 e had Seid he had no kn wleadge of thase ongoing activities. «rr Mr, Colby. I would inagins that his testimony thet & did not know of an assassination would ba consistent with my comment as to the weapons being given in support of armed actic: = Dilans. I don't know that = but not the spacific assessinetio as « put Ioan saving that is a possibls exnlaration of tha diffe i tt th 33 i?) ? stories. a o at ce G it 2 t bo ag Oo a if e , 7% ° Chairman Church. We will hava to question Mr. MeCone much Beer. A ER raphy pores HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 68
_ Prone (Area 202) 544-6600 WAH & PAUL Ce pom Eee ONE ee mn ee HW 50955 G! 10 11 12 13 | 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 26 24 25 Docld: more closely on that point. ~- _ a ne ea ee | Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library But you are unable now to tell us in connection with thase later activities whether or not there was spacific knowledas > of their connection with thea assassirat ion Purposes, above the level of Sr. Fitzgerald? . _ Mr, Brackinridga. At this moment I cannot. Senator Morgan. May I pursue a lins of questions for just a f£sw minutes? First of all, Mr. Schwarz, this documant, Exhibit A, who 2 prepared it? This is thse origiral rough draft thet was prapered only - by thse typists? Mr. Schwarz. That is the Ken Grear decumen a Mr. Colby. Prepared by ons of tr, Brackinridgs's 7 ot oe 3} associates, Mr. Kenneth Graer,. * oy Senator Morgan. “hat wes thea purpose of the preparation of this documsnt? - Mx. Colby. It followed the 9th of say, 1973 directive by Mr. ‘Schlesinger for a raport on all questionable activitizs. These ware gathered Logs thar by Nr. Grear and the other members of the Inspector Gensral's office ara a summary of the am was provided to ms to use to brisf the Chairman of the two committsd: Senator Morgan.. This was the best information that thea Agency was able to obtain at tha time? ‘ev. Colby. That was tha information availabls to “ha 32105805 Page 49
2 ° 4 t ) ~~ “ ° mw r) s = < —_ e G E 10 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15. 16 17 18 + 19 20 a4 410 Fiest Strack, $.£., Wastington, D.C. 20003 % ree] 25 HY 50955 DBocld: 32105805 Inspector General at the time. &€ think £ would sey it was ah] I don't think we instituted an aggressiva, positive investiqat We rather collectsd what we had available Senator Horgan. Well, there have bean aSSasSinatior government. Thera's no Biss<el to create an axecutive action 7 capability." That is a gensral Standby capability xo NOW ; an - thet was the primary Durvose of 2R Rifla: is: tha+ your understaendina? Wr, Colby. It was ona of the Durboses Of the ZR Rifla project ara dt * Senator torgan. And it was done at tha inst =ig ation of e “the*Whits Houss"7 Mr. Colby. We have one record which states that mr . ees. Bissel mad2 this stat cement without further precision. 42 : Senator Morgan. Ané whars is Mr. Bissell? Ve en — or tee tee” Mr. Colby. Mr. Bissell, I think, lives in Connecticut new. ¢ Senator Morgan. Now later on we Find that this pr continued On under a man by the nama of Bijl Narvay, did it ; i oject | 1 not? . : ' | ‘ mo, Photocopy from | aene ~ . ra ij be : j iP I™ CF TASES pes Gerald Ford Library Page $0
Gt Phone (Ares 202) $44-2000 10 Li 12 13 WARD & PAWL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ‘21 23 24 “MAU Ftd. DieeOl, Be, wasnington, B.C, 20003 25 Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. “Senator Morgan. @ Mamorandun What does . Mr. Colby. PI state mean? A forei Senator Winn no longer for smploying Qe, ity qgusstion of his tarminetion? Mr. Colby. '63 was i? Senator Morgan. June of April of 1964? Senator Morgan. Now thers is And then on June 27, 1973, he to the Chief FI staff. 1963, Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library vwrotka existed ard rais ib ed ths He was tarminatsd in no deubt in wnat this project was kaoyn by the Director of tha CTA? i fie. Colby. Aporoved by the Director. I don't think can say for sure. 7 Sanator Horgan. Mr, Colby, isn't it a reasonable assumotic: ° iT that"if a project of this magnitude WAS tO carry out tha ; . eRe, 2 assassination, it would act be created without the aporovel of the Director of ths CIA? | . 2 Mr. Colby. .It better not be created without my ap provel now, I will cuarantse you. Senator Morgan. It certainly is not sonable to assime that even in 1961 it would hava been Mr. Colby. X would TRAP CUTAN ES NEP HW 50955 DocId:32105805 Page 91
oH 3 > iq ; % y 2 ‘“ 3 < e 3 £ 10 11 5 12 2 . < & S 13 i] & : 14 15 16 1? 18 3 19 3 20 i. 8 21 :. 22 : 23 ; 25 50955 Docld: 32105805 the specific project or not but the general idea is so % significant, and that is ication thet Dulles dia tha i know Of this act-at tha tims. Whether it was Specifically brought co tha attention of his successor I could not actually testify one way or the other. — . Senator Morgan. Mr. Colby, can you make any more sensitiv: a project at the One Of assassination? Mr. Colby. When lr. Schlesiager cama'in I mada sure he Was aware Of anything I knew. Senator Morgan. And this being true, aren'+ you satisfied in your own Mind that all your diractors were aware of this project ZR 2ifle un ntil such tims as it was tarminated? Mr. Colby. That is eae conclusion, Ssnator. I can give testimony on that Senator Morgan. It is a conclusicn, but you ars én Mr. Colby. Right. : | z e ° “ ae 7 Senator Horgan. You are the Director of thse CIA and Va hava had the expsrliencs and Nrnowledge of the- history of “ha cra. - 7 . Let me ask you, based upon your history, tha history and the knowlsdgz of the CIA that vou know of, have as Director, and you have gained as Director, aren't you satisfizd that: every director knaw of this project? Mr. Colby. In the face of the statement. by Mr. MeCons bhi" a. Sy au eid ie ne Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library are Page 923
G1 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wnathe er besn & part of a reer ha did not know of .it, I find thet statement difficult to ® challenge. ~ I agree with you, he should havea known ebout it, but I could not say for Sura that statement is not accurate. Senator Morgan. One final question. ste, MeCone Left the Agency when? Mx. Colby. In 1965. Senator Morgan. I won't ask any other questions sxcsnt for ths record I would like to sey this so I can remember why Iwas pursuing this later on, . ty < “ —_ sf ~ ‘ , I asked these quastions not to try te show the assessinatict plan, becaus2 I think that has alrsady bean easteblished, aré if that is all we ars after wa can move on to somathin ag elsa eu. bee _ . wok . But tne thing that does concern me is that if this prei-ct ~N continued on until and past the tims thes Presi@ant Xennsdy Was assassinatec, then it raises a quustion in my mind 4s to rt oO ry mot Castro hinself may not well have known about it Wh th ¢ ther or not the President's assassiretion may not have ey) pote mination plan and it may just open ths door co whsther or not later on wea should aecids to look that. « oes ca aid wt ana oe 4 ~., Bey Photocopy from That is the reason I haves followed that line of questions. | Gerald Ford Library 7 Doclda: 32105805 Page 93
a Photocopy from 1 Chairman Church. Senator Mart, Gerald Ford Library 2 Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Colby, in connection with 3 |) 2@R Rifle, I think you testified or your associate said this was 5 || development of the capability of what euphemistically is called 6 || executive action. 9 | In your professional judgment, and with your history of g jl your background in the Agency, does it make any sense to you tha g ||a major operation, a major intelligence gathering operation of * would be mounted under the direction of a man 12 about whom all I know is that Mr. Harvey has a background of 13 || Something like a soldier of fortune, and funded at the level, 14 || I should say, of $7500 to $10,000? 15 Does it not suggest to you that was in 16" fact an internal cover for what was explicitly an assassination 17 operation with unlimited, non-vouther financial capability? Mr. Colby. No, not that’ it is purely a cover. Pa roo Ce . © eutaT a) “Pp ant rene : . ? : cana ‘ 4 4 as a HY 50955 DBocld: 32105805 Page 94 | 18 . 19 In the first place, Mr. Harvey had a very successful tour 20 in Bexlin where he ran the Berlin tunnel eperation, which was p21 | one of our major successful intelligence operations. 92 Mr. Harvey was a very colorful figure who had his lifestyle, 23 which is different than some others, but he had@ been very oA effective at that, and very adventuresome in that category of £5 sicnals intelligence ang a v@ry.scnturesome idea of that nature. . . , Peas Ee | i
1 litte was in the assignment of Chief of the FI Division Stale 2 That staff's major function is to conduct the signals intelligenc 5 |ivorkvhich must be done in the clandestine service. Fanti GNI ee awe wre ws 8 _ Now, the thing that puts it together with this "capability", 9 |}executive action, is the high degree of compartmentation of 10 | this material, that kind of a project. In other words, a LiL obviously that is to be 3 ‘14 || Therefore, there is a system of very sharp compartmentation of WARD & PAU 15 ij the work of that particular group. 16 17 18 19 So, given you have a man who had some good technical 20 || experience, who is a venturesome type himself and is running a 21 |, Pregram which is not too far off the requirements of high pe | compartmentation, and a very high risk kind of operation, and 93 | theretore, for Hr. Bissel to have selected Harvey to carry out a4 |} this project seems to. me that it is compatible that he could BAU Fils S1FCGT, D.E., WOMHAQION, LG. MUUUS es tbe running projects, ED. AER EREERGED SEPELFED SUPEPPN a PAlaasedanaenneeaeany-sreuanananeheesipepmpnpienngmiaere : . ‘ are TN FT i ee as : 7 ans | HOP GSASRET “ Photocopy from HY 50955 Decld:32105805 Page 95 | Gerald Ford Library.
yz jas well as this other activity. 2 Now, in the lifestyle at the time, not mentioning the SCcona me 3 one, this gets back into the recordkeeping that we have been 4 discussing. It was not to be put on the record although to be 5 done, That is a perfectly prover hypothesis, it seems to me, gr Pout to say that they was only a cover I think is probably an unwarranted conclusion, 7 8 Senator Hart of Colorado. What about the level of funding) 9 of $7,500 to $10,000? 10 Mr. Colby. That is not very much money for that Kind of an operation. 11 P | | 12 Senator Hart of Colorado, Precisely. I think it is too little. 13 14 Mr. Colby. No. For a capability of that nature, it is 1s largely a staff operation. In other words, you use your own 16 Staff officers. You may hire an agent or something, but-I don't . Wy think you can draw much conclusion from the actual number on 1g the figure one way or the other. 19 This might not have been -the Only such project. You know, an assassination project would cost you more money than that, . too. ; Senator Hart of Celorado. Absolutely. ‘ 22 Nr. Colby. I find it hard to say. that that is the only ! 23 amount of money involved. <I tnink you get into a situation an . where’ additional money would be put into oither of those kinds Photocopy from |, Rote ee ea pen eure =) . é * . \ a a ry . ts ray Gerald Ford Library if © io ee eR ra a HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 96
HW 50955 Dod Crt wk cn 10 LL 12 13 14 15 16 L? 18 19 20 al 22 20 24 29 / of activities. I: wouldn't get hung up on the bureaucratic aspect of the number of dollars. | Senator Hart of Colorado. So Mr. Harvey, Lf the decision were made to try to liquidate a fcreign leader, and Mr. Facvey found the instrumentality, the individual to do that, and that required $100,000, all he had to do was come back in and say? Mr. Colby. fle could get it. Mr. Schwarz. I think we should have the record reflect two things. The two gentlemen talking are not eyevitnesses to what we have. been talking about. | Second , and related to that, for us to pursue this matter, we must have, and ‘must have right away, the better evidence which is in the possession of the CIA, which is at least the Inspector General report of 1967; and more importantly than that} the interview notes reflecting whatever interviews you had 7 a | withshomever you interviewed at that time or later. a Mx. Colby. These_we.will make available to you to the extent werhave them. | Mr. Breckinridge. We retained no notes. We kept only the one report that we submitted to Mr. Helms at that time, the one copy. When he left the Agency he returned it to us. Now, the files on the Cubella affair and the Trujitieaffai Shh. . me 8 mse Petal . . bow ‘tt exist, and they are available. oe SS Mr. Schwarz. Can we have it unéerstood that, Mr. its Breckinricge, you will as vou did with the initial material,-~ AEM ES CPST Photocopy - os Le nt rare a | Gerald Ford Library ' Docld:32105605 Page 97
1 || come down some e 2 so forth? Prone (Area 202) 344-poue D 4 normal ground 5 “Chairman "6& Mr. Colby q Chairman 8 Mx. Schwa 9 Senator Hart's 10 Would you 11 | of time wh rethe 12 within the Cen 1% || the assassinat 14 | there was any WARD & PAUL, 15 || Intelligence A 16 and the period 17 | was March 1960, 1g crisis. And, 19 | was possiole Cc 20 | an ongoing pla 2) and Russiz wer -£23 | Finally, p4 iwhich I believ 416 First Strat, $.6., Washington, D.C. 20603 e5 higher authori HY 50955 Docld: 32105605 Page 98 22 case is John F. time early next week and we can go over it and 3 '" Mr, Colby. Sure. If we can just have the same sort of rules. about the papers. Church. Sure. They always apply unless -- ee ee » < Know. Church. -- unless we say differently. rz. No, just following up one more thing on question of some time ago. determine with respect to five different periods r, first, there was any internal evaluation tral Intelligen nee Agency as to whether or not ion attempts should continue and, second, whether discussions with persons outside of the Central gency as to wnether or not the piot should continues of time would be the initial authorization, which after the Bay of Pigs, during the missile parenthetically there, will you State whether it astro might have been assassinated pursuant to n during a period of tine. when . the United States e close to a nuclear confrontation. The next. “ITI. Kennedy's assassination: at the time ef the break-off in June of 1965;. e@ was ti, Breckinridge’ 's testimony, was anybody in ty told that the cperation had been broken off? a “aN Ree Ey ETE aa map Photocopy from | Gerald Ford Library aaa ate Anetta eln GNA Y Rett inane samen te ee we | | :
1 Because that will bear upon whether anybody in higher autnority 2 Iihad authorized or requested the operation. Ye Mr. Colby. Yes, fine, 4 Mx, Schwarz. Can I pick up then on another subject which 5 ilwe just barely touched on last time, Mr. Colby? _ 6. | This is related to the question I asked you about the use 7 of criminal elements. 8 | Senator Mathias. Before we leave this, I have one question. 9 Chairman Church. Senator Mathias. 10 Senator Mathias. In light of the fact this poison pen was il actually proffered on the 22nd of November, 1963, is there a 12 scintilla of evidénce ~- and was proffered to a Major in the : 135 Cuban Army on active duty -~ is there a scintilla of evidence 14 | that anyone in the Cuban Government had any knowledge or suspicic: 15 {prior to that date that this was a project that was planned? 16 Mr. Colby. There is certainly no evidence that anyone 1? jhad that information with respect to the Cubella operation. 18 Mr. Breckinridge. No. 19 Mr. Colby. The second vhase of the Mafia operation had bee 20 || wrapped up by then, think. FETA MOrNg Mena Bare we 21 Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. i 22 Mr. Colby. The individual in Cuba involved in it had 23 take asylum, I think. a . 240 Mr. Breckinridge, No, the sequence is a little ¢ifferent. 25 || Mr. Colby, A little later: oO aN Photocopy from. 7 B , 2 oe PET pie FNP) QA iy Xx - ae aa Sid aaia & Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 DBocid: 32105805 Page 99
Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. There were people who reportedly were ent into Cuba, a team of three people ~- and I Said reporte; PNONS (ATOR LUZ) DAe7OURY ~ : we were working then through a Cuban exile leader, 3 4 They had the assignment of recruiting additional peaple to 5 Carry out such plans as might be devcloped. We never knew what 6 happened to those people ~~ whether they came back .-- only that 9 they were sent in. But if you are looking for a possibility of knowledge of Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. . i #} Mr. Breckinridge, There is another consideration.”~. _» 4490 First Streot, $.E., Washington, O.C, 20003 ° | 9 an assassination plot, conceivably those three people could be | 10 the source of it, but not that the United States Government was ll behind it. ; 12 . “Senator Mathias. But it is conceivable that Castro and é 13 his Government could have come upon some evidence that some | g 14 plot was afoot? | as Mr. Colby. He certainly could have cross allegations, and 16 you really must assume that various of the other kind, even 17 inéependent activities, or the first phase of the Mafia progrin | 18 j Could have produced allegations of attempts against him with | 19 the comment that CIA ox the United States was behind it. The 20 Possibility of that kind of allegation is Just almost infinite. 21 Senator Mathias, Particularly considering the nature of the instruments that were being deployed? . Eas : | 24 | 25 Chairman Church, You really havent told us on the recor? | Fs) . | Tes D Cir sary pais | Photocopy from / | oy at We : Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 321045305 Page 100
PUG Lee away VI owe & ~2 <a) fed oon * od a) aN] WARD & PAUL cr 14 15 16 17 18 19 wt par rae] A. 410 fist Strost, §.E., Washington, 0.6. 20003 wa to ae a sg | pI CR EEE ETE OTE IO ee EE until just now, in re&ponse to Senator Mathias, just what the second phase of the Mafia connection for assassination Castro was. We really haven't had the detail except as you gave it to Senaco.s Mathias. r wonder if you could complete the record on this second phase. Give us all the information that you know about that. Mr, Breckinridge. Before I do, one additional consideratio The Cuban exile community in Miami was engaged in a great deal of plotting of its own and a great deal of hyperbole, and it is safe to assume that Castro also had reports of assassinatii schemes or threats from that group. So there is cone more source to that sort of thing. Photocopy from . ee MEN Gerald Ford Library " O49 Pe TD a wa pees HW 50955 Docld:327105805 Page 101
i 10 il l2 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 As) Senator Horgan. Whare is Cubella now? ‘Is he still in prison? tir. Breckinridge. In jail On tha Isle of Pinas, Senator Horgan. Are We sura of chat? Mr. Breckinridga. I asked somsbody the other day and they said that is whsra they think he is. Senator Morgan. I just wond=red whosa agent he raallyv Was. fir. Colby. Ys has ba w od pb. os kts fu pre So Fh 2) K 5a) a o he Q ct sy th +e rh 5 a was Castro's, Senator Horgan. You testified ha was able to-go in and out of Cuba fairly fraquentlv. £9] = ! b th by i{ te tH] ‘Mx. Coloy. Ns was €@n assorcieta of Castro ti he fu tt be [e) nO question about that, but he had an indenendecnt x ce with us that finally got picked up. I think thet is impor‘tent, Mr. Chairnan, that we try to keap his rems out of any publishes dccumants for thai reason. There is no use getting him i: more troyble. il Sanator Schwsicksr. That is for sures. . Chairman Church. There is no argument on that score. . Would you pleases furnish us with all of the datails as to Me. Breckinridgs. “a will giva you mors accurats detail When We give you tha report, but I will that I can recell. the second phasa of the Mafia connection? ee t Photocopy from wes : . Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Dockd: 32105805 Page 102
LO li 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 25 Chairman Church. Bafore you do, would you just explain exactly what the reletionship between CIA and Giancana and Maheu was because that is not clear in my mind. Would you develop for the Committas that whol: relationshin Nr. Breckinridge. Robert Meheu used to work for tba PBI and he rasigned from the PBI ard opened a privata pe °$ at ta n ud te Q fu I tive firm here in Washington ard CIA used him from time to tims for certain kinds of support activities. Chairman Church. ‘het kind of support activities? Hr. Breckinridge. On one occasion hse obtained a. fsmzbe companion for.an.important foreign leader. . e Chairman Church, What other kird of supcsort? Mr, Brecekinridg In the egarly days -- and this beconss an embarrassmant. As nearly as I cC&@n reconstruct, the osovle 4 wac knew him decided to put him on 2 Yetainsr in the Offic: £.Ssecurity, which they did for awhile, until he vas so I successful he said he no londer needed tha retainer, which he ft didnt+ do much to earn. He later got involved rapresentind ons of the Greek Shipping interests and we were Given the results of soma of the information the+ he obtained from that Where thera was a fight between ‘iarchos and Onassis. We think he may have had soma involveman ‘ in another foreign leader's companion shiv when ha was in this country. I don't 7¥ have the details. I think we can probably reconstruct it for . . sot s a Sear . wae Photocopy from ee ~ 2M gars pos Gerald Ford Library PND l HY 50955 Docld: 321045305 Page 103
LO Ld 12 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 Chairman Church. Can we have the file on him? ~ Hr. Breckinridge. I think We will provides ons on We have ons, yes. ° Chairman, Church. Very well. + Mr, Breckinridgs. ‘Then Haheu left Washington and out west, I think first to Los Angeles, later to Les Ve where hs became associated with thea Nughes orgenizatior that. NO noved whea the question aross about gutting an introduction to tha Mafia, bscausa they did have gembliag interasts in Cuba that tims, the Office of Security, Colonel Edvards was asked) ¥ had somsoOne go to Ma heu, to se*2 if Mats su could meke such an introduction. Maneu Knew a man by the name of Johnny Nosslli, who Machines on the strip in Las Vegas, and he axvranged, Ro arranged an introduction to -~ the CIA actually arrencs . *. a a our wan didn't meat Glancana, I don't balisves, arrangsd lived in Los Angzles, who had ths concession for the icemaking introduction, but Giancana who in turn arranged an introduction to &@ Man by the name of Santos Trafficantea. Trafficante was the h ay alt énd Castro héd allowsd them. First ha had closed tham, he reopened them hoping to attract tourists. And Trafs cravelled to aad from Cuba. 2 ad of the Cuban gambling interests Glancana sarved only as the introduction to Trafficanta. ‘ am FT NT SPN ale nt Noo by asl ea hits vt Photocopy from HW 50955 poor esa eget ORY, 104 a |
Photocopy from 1. This waS all done through Roselli. Gerald Ford Library 2 0 —_ _ . . . ur people never they all dealt with Roselli, who ip 5 turn deal with ths others. | 4 Roselli was in essence a cut-out or Servad as the micdln 5 man. Roselli was naver paid for his servicas, 6 Glancana Clearly knaw eve srcually the governms ent associetior ? Roselli came to know of it, though initially ha was introduced 8 to the CIA psrson.as a Man who worked for Mehsu on an assignment 9 by 4 private client 10 So initi tally tha cover StOry was Maheu's private Client 11] who nee an interest inside Cusa. Giancana never really was 12° involved subsequently. 15 He did arrange -- it was Trafficants from than on -- and 14 | trefficants nad a source inside cuba who had an offics, had 15° a position in ths Offica of the Primes Minister, fa WaS belisv«é 16 | to have access +o Castro and a poison pill was daveloped thas 17 | ha was 40 insert into Castro's food. the Pills were sant in 18 | to ¢His man. What we did not know as the tima was the man 19 |} hed lost his job énd lost his acc: and the vills wers returned 20h.  ohtr, Colby. That is tha firs+ phase, aL Senator Schweicker, Yould vou dats that? 22 Mr. Breckinridge. That woula go inte the sarly part of 23 1961, March-April, 1961. 24 HY. Schwarz. The Pills wera given es part of the first 25 | phase to a Sicond Person in Cuba; is that correct? es: FAVED Cerys HY 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 105
Gi 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19° 20 21 22 23 24 20 Mr... Breckinridge. Just before the firse PhaSe anded ; ¢ Roselli, through Trafficante, was introduced to anothar Cuban exile leader in Miami by tha nama of Anthony Varona. Again ; ¢ his name is a sensitiva Matter. Varona was the leader of ones the groups thet was being Supported by ths CIA as part of. the preparation for tha Bay re : + ellis ss of Pigs. Varona Was unhappy with his association, with the essecieati - = wu Se ee a ’ with the CIA. Use fslt he had not b wy an given th > “3 Q 5 < Varon ei ona had previous contact with tha eriniral lament in Cube end He we . + ays cote <: ed Ke was approached by Roselli with Traffticants's intrcductio- cote) take on this mission. - 5 f =~ abe ROSée]li’s story was that he Tepresentsd some privats clisr ‘ Mach fake “3 ¥ ; 1 wno “2G interest in Cuha. Th< Rosselli identity was eonaran: _. Pa oh ye . . . Verona Said.he keaayw SOMSOns WNO was in 2 Yesteurent thet stro frecusnted end “he he oi Castro frocusnted and then the vills were traenssorts ? are al Seawarz Could you stats for the record Whe meds the . nakinydaes .. . . ar. Breckinridge. Ths pills were made in what was *hen Jers vis fe the Technical Services D On of the CIA ir, Schwarz. iad they ever mada such bills bsfora? Me. Breckinridgs. Mot that I know of, ur. Schwarz. ad they ever used BSotulinun es é poison in OD fe ree oa m7 i re ei aa ae saab Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 106
or ed + Hee mms eng weeny femmes vee 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 al 22 23 24 RS. ‘Breckinridge. On one prav considered for’ usa on ious occasion DBotuliaun cigars that someone had hopad to get to Castro, and eventually ‘that never got off the ground. This was a scheme that was n * I know of that ona instances i Botulinum was mad= Was called off. When Harvey took over and in April of 1962, « thiags is - Scrange the original restanrant chat ha hed sant threes additional psodle for such rs) planned to Send in The éaver Went. of delays and we don'+ think The First thrs2 men, if don't know who they were, we @on't kaow whether they came they weat back that Varona start aporoech, Mea into Cube whose mayer ever approved and in which it was considered. want Forward Pills and thssz pills vera ta} d doing to tha restaurant whare occurred and the operation then Ysactivated tha second to Varona, and ons of ths which I think caused Jeen what ws wars Varoné jol was fia devealon. they ever did go in. in fact they did go in ~-- we don't know what We out or not As a matter of interest, thea man whe was to go back . & . wee fy FF Corre yp : - ' fay i in abhAt id Photocopy from 49955 Docld: 32105305 Page 107 Gerald Ford Library belisve t =] off with the rvreoutition
fas 10 Ll 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ao un . erkespnane te « . COanscelons. The people who daalt with Varona felt that nr Chairman Church. It is possibls they went in and could * have been captured by Castro? cr Mr. Breckinridge. It is POoSsSSible. Tie Guasti that Se mi i qUSstlon cnat Senator Morgan asked earlier, whut they could have known -~ the . - : OWN “1eSe€ Men we don't believes could have known ohe ys Sty: q s e : :. the actual backers of the Obsration, bacause Varona wes Gsaling . Maas batg 7b amily o > * i i With a Mamder Of ths syndicatz with wkon he had previous ) Ee] i f= i ome }+> ae * = was discrsst and carsful. qh * But thoce ma = But those man could heve been capturzid. Thay.cauld ! st fs < in fede ** suppliszd th. interpretation tha : aor ppl Is inter DYrevation that tney might not heva KNOvVs Nothin = cr «he Dperezt+j i . Nothing Cams OF She Opsration, it was called off, but yi ess (Le atielly that is the first and secord Phase. Chairman Church, Thess threa Men Were £o be sant from --+ Mx. Breckinridgs. ‘Thay Were Cuban exiles. Chairmen Church. To be Sent in fron the Unitsd Status? (sit. Colby. From the United States, mem ase et : : * ~Chafrman Church. And why AS i= vou den't know whether or ) not they wers sant ; mts. * ~ woe . ‘ 2 Mx. Breckinridgs. The question exists in my mind. I am not sure it exists in other osovls's minds As I reviewed the record, when We got Sne Yecord back, in ae Ey = ro pa fe a asaration ees Serer daed. Preparation for these inquiries, I was Struck by the fact that . hs was using this reustaurant, and When &@ Vear later tha ohase © Oudsesuig Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32105305 Page 106
CTT Fy OR Ft ree SAO EASE TRESS, Re teay VRASTUINGIOM, torte CUS 10 Al 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 a1 22 25 a4 295 HY 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 109 ' good reasons vou are subject to was reactivated, the same story was used and alrzady had bean proven not to be so. Later he talked in general terms about the thras men and cf I began to develop some resarvation ir my mind as to whatner or not Varona had in fact told us the truth. That is purely speculation on my part. Mr. Colby. This is a problem we liva with in the intellig business. Uhen you ars not able to be in direct contace for rh £ fete abrication, particularly there is some monsy involved. o ut ¢ ‘Chairman Church. Did ths CIA, in cennection with phase . Ons OF phasa two, vay any of thease agents for their servicss? Mr. Breckinridge. In chase one I think we paid expense MOnsy. in phass tvo We gave monay to Varona. fic, Schvarz. And +o Ros#x1l1li? th liv. Breckinridge. Ws paid smpense money for Roselli. ‘ix. Schwarz. You peid him money to buy guns? e Mr. Breckinridgs Iwas going to tell thse gun stery. Varena wanted monav an} guns and somes of the equinmant thet ne specified could be obtainsd only from the United States military. And the equioment that was acquired at that time. did not include that xind of eauipmant. It included equiomsent that could be obtaln=d from other sources and axclud«d U.S. : e a 3 e ] military equipment. It was provided through the assistance of the filam : Station. A U-He mal truck was picke2 up and asliver. Photocopy from may [3 Cary pass Gerald Ford Library
10 il 12 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 Re 25 ~ Mr. Breckinridge. Th ib first man who had “ha job in the th Offica of the Prime’ Minister, this man did get kickbacks fron tha criminals. I think that must be the ons you remamber. He took refuge in the Venezuelan embassy and stayed there until ‘1964. Hs finally was given safe conduct to pass out. The Mexican smbassy took over From Venazuala. Cuba broke diplematic Yelations. He continued to be a political refucaa in that ambassy until ths fall of 1964. Chairman Church. What was Varona's motive for varticinpatink e . in tts plot? tir. Breckinridge. Varona was one of the axils leaders te who Wanted to ovsrthrow Castro. He wantsd mora financing ther | he had. He would cocperats with anyons. a) Photocopy from sO oe Gerald Ford Library . ; “ay : oF>, ° ° ~*~ eae Bre YD oF PH an yun ; . ‘Se HY 50955 Docld: 32105805 Page 110
i , Mr. Schwarz. I would like to pick up on the discussion 2 liwe had. 3 Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz has five minutes more, and 4 we will conclude, and I would lix:.. to ask the Committee ec Stay 5 jon for ten more minutes for an exécutive session. -6 Mr. Schwarz. In the discussion we had on the use of 7? ||) criminal elements, we have dealt with the Castro operation. 8 In the middle of the book supplied to us by Mr. Breckinridge 9 || earlier this week, there is a discussion about the mee 10 | operation, and the Agent Q. g. . Win, oo 11 Now, is’ it a fact that Q. J. Win was the agent, or asset, 12 = you would refer to him, who apparently was con sidered i 13 | for the effort to assassinate Lumumba, which never tock place; 14 | TS that richt? 15 . Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. 16 Mr. Schwarz. Now, is it accurate that Q. J. Win operated 17 | 4n Europe trying to spot and assess individuals whom the Agency 18 | could.use* in safecracking overations? 19 Mr. Colby. This is what is reported, and it is guite possible. 20 C 21 Mr. Breckinridge. The record indicates that. , 22 Ne. Schwarz. And is it further so that one of the CIA 23 officers who first met Q. J. Win in Luxembourg, Was on a- 24 trip overseas to find safecrackers and Gocument suppliers? 25 Mr. Colby. Yes, that is what it says ; TaN Photocopy from CRIg eer pews i “Tet ') ww hin! tn “on an tad au § : Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 111
qe Mr. Schwarz. Now, just as a matter of historical record, 2 is the 6ss the predecessor of the CIA in some sense? | 3 Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. | " 4 Mr. Schwarz. ts it correct that "Lucky" Luciano was used 5 |/to help the: ogs in connection with operations in Italy during - | & {the Second World tar? . 3 Mr. Colby. r don't know, but I have heard that story -Mr. Schwarz. -For the record, Mr. Luciano was a Mafia 25 | ‘ Photocopy from Ton ET “Ne ad Gerald Ford Library 8 as well, It is an extensive story but I don't know the facts. 9 10 jfigure who had been deported from the United States, or was in 11 jjailin the United States? 12 Mr. Colby. Was in jail, I guess, and was later deported 13 jafter the War. - 14 Myr. Schwarz. Now, in connection with the instructions whi Len 1s you issued in 1973 concerning activities outside of the Charter : 16 o£ the CIA, you received, as we went through the other day, a | 19 report from the Insvector General leading up to that in ‘ay of 1g [1973?_ | on . ; z 19 Mr. Colby. That is right. | | “ 20 Mr. Schwarz. And was part of the report that the CIA 21 had itself conducted for ‘local police departments in Washington, | 22 Arlington, Fairfax and Alexandria, during the pericd 1968 and | 93 1969, a series of classes in items which included basics in . | 3 Surveillance, photography, -Sasic audio and countersabotage; and in addition, . this is what I particularly call syour ‘attention co, | | } mee ey F ee | enone, evi t HY 50955 Docld:32105605 Page 112
1 -{| locks and picks and Surreptitious entry? 2 . Mr. Colby. Yes, Sir, 3 Mr. Schwarz. I am now reading from pages 225 and 226 of 4 the 694 , ages, which I will mart as Exhibit No, 6, 5 . So . (The above-mentioned document Wa 6 re so, marked as Colby Exhibit Mo, _| 7 . for identification.) os 8 Mr. Schwarz. Is it the fact that, for example, between | 9 | October 7 and Octeber 18, 1968, the cra conducted a course for 10 | the Washincton Police Department in the subject of surreptitious eel entry? : 12 - Mr. Colby. It was included in that, yes, 13 Mr. Schwarz. What was the purpose of conducting such a 14 }} course? 15 Nr. Colby. We had a relationship with various Dolice 16 departments around the country, They from tire to time would | like to learn our knowledae of certain Subjects that are cuite 17 | 7 | | | | 18 | Unique to’ the CIA. There are a number of things that we have | 9 to do in CIA which are quite frankly outside the norm of. nest | 20 | other agencies of the Government. 2} Chairman Church. Doesn't Surreptitious entry refer tO mo L 22 j ALlegal entry? | 7 2% ; Mr. Colby. Going in secretly, that is what it means, 24 | Entering secretly in some fashion or other, yes. 0s | Chairman Church. That is an illegal activicy for local 4 oy aes Photocopy from FAD SacPyy Py | Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 321045305 Page 113
Police, is it not? _ Mr. Colby. Presumably, .ves, a . 3 Chairman Church, Why is CIA conducting courses teaching 4 | local police illegal activity, kev to conduct illegal ofe.ation 5 Mr. Colby. I think at that tine, Hr. Chairman, that was at the request of the police department of that area, that they ? |lwere interested in this thing, and there is a defensive element 8 fof it. In order to know how to protect against Something, it 9 iis well to know how it is actually conducted, 10 Chairman Church. Do you construe this activity to be ll within the law, the basic statute wnich restricts your domestic . 12 jrocesios? 13 Mr. Colby. I don't think it is a violation of the law, He ee 14 jr. Crairman. 15 I did give some directive on that in 1973, that ve not 16 | engage in this anymore, in compliance with. the spirit of the 17 | amendment to the Law Enforcement Assistance Adminis tration 18 | nce winter SayS that CIA will not provide Support to the LEAA 19 in its assistance to local police departments. And as far as 20 || I was concerned, that is a policy that they con't want CIA in 21 | touch with local police departments. i, 23 | local police Gepartment does not in my mind get us into actually 24 ! condueting domestic police activity. There is a difference 4 *5 | there. ., ca re Aer r fe m4 omy He) rae ‘ : ’ i mj a i 4 . ie Oo wl ieSalbiia d Photocopy from = 22 | The fact of sharing our knowledse of techniques with a Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32105305 Page 114 | | rm ere so emtaonnamnannennien emma 5 ROT tN GLE DF eam me mee + CO AeRAMNRRLNANY eerteteertrenmur uisane anaes sthaahne SEAEKEGIEE EE) oS gaKE Ok ey SOARES mee VINEE Aye GXFUEEEAEEgar? © spaneeshants te ies
10 il 12 13S WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 25 10 Fiest Straal, 5.€., Washingion, 0.C, 20003 29 HY 50955 Docld:32105805 Page 115 | | | | workman or something of Chairman Church. Yes. But apart from the technical question of your jurisdiction, when you engage in teaching local police departments how to conduct break-ins, surreptitious break-ins, you are teaching them how to break the law. Mr. Colby. You are teaching them how the law is broken. -Chairman Church. That is right. 7 oo, Mr. Colby. Which .can be useful to them in their knowledge of how the law is broken, the techniques that are feasible. | Chairman Church. Or can be useful to them in knowing how to break the law? Tt is an item of information that It could. | { | | | i ; { Mr. Colby. they can use in ahy way they wish, either properly ox improperly | Mr. Schwarz. Are you aware of any situations where govern-' mental officials, either state, local or Federal, have in fact engaged in break-ins within the United States? i | | | I know of certain situations related to foreign 1 Mr. Colby. intelligence operations where access to appropriate targets has been obtained either through subterfuge of pretending to be a that nature, and I think in that histor there are some cases of actual break~ins,- | Now, I assure you, Mr. Chairman, we have been conducting : break-ins abroad. There is no question about that. That is, we train our people to be able to do that. | That is not the question I am raising —_— Chairman Church. with you. re ra ae ry purge s ar oof nea Nid KOR Ra Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
2 . In other words, these courses, it is my inpression, were i generalized discussions of techniques, ‘They were not Particular 4 | hancholding on conducting a specific operation, 5 I think I am accurate in that statement, og - «Mr. Smothers. Mr, Colby, just a couple of quick questions, | , i 9 First, with regard to the files, memoranda or diaries you ! L g | Might have of former directors, are those Still on Agency" i g || Premises? Do you have those matters still there that were 10 jj left by former Directors? | 11} Mr. Colby. Certain ones we do. I don't know of any thet yo || We don't have, ‘ ; | 13 | As far as I am concerned, they.are Acen ‘cy property, and when } 14 I leave Iam going to, walk out without any peper, 1s Hr. Smothers, With respect then to the inguiries you have ! 16 made with regard to information’ in the files on assassinations, . i, have these inquiries extended to an examination of these files 18 | of former: Directors? | 19 Mr. Breckinridge, In one or two instances on srecific _ 20 points we have made inquiries, Net have. not gone through the | 2) files in general for that purpose, , | i 22 Mr. Colby. We have gone through that collection I know of | 2% tr. Helms’ files. I don't know of any specific set of files ae si ur. MeCone's files, : t 25 There is an executive regis try where my correspondence is : | Photocopy from cvate CL Py rey | oe a | ° , ry Gerald Ford library Ge be eS aE mR, HW 50955 Docld:327105805 Page 116
1 llkept, for instance. 2 ~ Mr. Smothers. What I am searching for is the situation © ||where the generic classification of materials might sonchow 4 have not | been complete enough for us to gst particular Knowledge; 5 and I was “wondering prior to our next meeting if a search | “6 oriented s with respect to the issue of knowledge might be a | 7 i fruitful exercise? - --- | 8 Mr. Colby. Knowledge by previous directors of soecifics 9 Hon this topic? 106 Mr. Smothers. Yes, : | | | ll Mr. Colby. I think it is easy for Mr. Yelms. 1 think . es. * : 12 || we have gone through his files, I don't know of any Separate ; « 15 ji set of files on Mr. Dulles or Mr. McCone. te Will look, 14 , Senator Mondale. There is a reference. to John MeCone's. 15 |} files in one of the memos that I looked at this morning. 16— Mr, Colby. I will check that, Senator. 17 ~ Chairman Church. That is a good point, and I am glad you | 18 have -raised it. | | 19 I think we will conclude the hearing at this point with : H *| the understanding, Mr. Colby, we will be back in touch with, you. 21 Mr! colby. Surely. Many times, I think, Mr. chaienan. 77 to 22 Chaizman Church, Yes. : | *5 I think that next week we will not have any formal noetings! i 24 | or the Comittee, owing to the recess, but we will then, I | 25 think, we are soi to have to go into tri-veekly meetings, | | | Photocopy from dy i) C2 BY) ra tes Gerald Ford Library Totes tot eae Ds HY 350955 Doacld:327105805 Page i117 coy
Tn a, 1: beginning, after the recess, so we can step up the Pace far , one 2 ! investigation. 3 Senator Mondale. If they could get the Lansdale memo, ot 4 Mr. Colby. I will do that tuis afternoon. 5 EZ would Like to add two things that have come to my attent 6 lon the subject of assassinations, both of which are allegations, 7 both of which have been knocked down, 8 There WwaS an allegation, some man has alleced that he was g working or conducting an assassination in Colombia, and we have oo ee nen nt ane 5. 10 || looked into .the specifics of it, and there is absolutely nothing! Jy jto it. ££ thought I would mention it, I have the facts here ‘ye fj and will include them at sone time i There is another allegation that one of cur officers 14 | had some knowledge of an attempt against Chou En-Lai, and he has I Fi j { i i i written me a note that points out that it is impossible for that t | 15 ig | to have happened because he wasn't in the place at the tire 1? Chairman Church. Since they are allegations into which 1g | you bave ‘inquired, I think you should make the papers availadle, - 19 | Mr. Colby. I will make sure the Staff sets enose, acaak 20 Chairman Church, hank you very much, : e 21 Mr. Knoche. Could I point out, I think we have the answer. ‘y 99 | to the photographs. 23 There were seven of these Photographs taken at @ifferent : 24 | angles at the same time, but absolutely Cifferent tine intervals; 25 during the time that the police had these men in custody. — Photocopy from PRE ALL oe ts ee ore ee sere Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32105305 Page 116
ake) il 12. 13 14 15 16 17 18 “19 20 21 22 24 25 HY 50955 Docld: 321053805 sae fee errr, | eee re enrey 4 4 Mr. Knoche, I am not sure. tf am not certain for that ™ Particular board that you were looking at With the blowup, they took this One of the seven Photo < -Ograp which gives the best opportunity to look at the face Mr. Colby. So they were separate Photographs Chairman. Church. Yes, ~ om. Mr. K . i noche. I will be Glad to leave that with you if you would like to have it for your file (Whereupon, at 12:30 o'clock P.m., the Committee recessed subject to the call of the Chair ) Gerald Ford Library Page 119