in Docld: 32277221 (88S ————E————————————————— OE ee We an So es an es I Se Page 25 this was fourteen years ago retired, I went on to other to call me, you compartment tur BPLUNLi parts of the agency. 25 factory in Cifenasago or another part of Cuba that we guarded - because of this, that or the other thing, that would not be of interest to me but I would report it to my immediate superior and it would not be of interest to him but he would funnel it to somebody that might be interested in that information. So information that we received on AMMUG was dispersed to many Mr. Goldsmith, Did AMMUG provide any information with regard to Sylvia Duran? Mr, Hidalgo. I don't know, Mr. Goldsmith, Did he provide any information in regard to a woman named Louisa Calderon? Mr. Hidalgo, That would be Cul-nin-o my knowledge of Spanish tells me. Mr. Goldsmith. You know more about that than I, sir. Mr. Hidalgo. I don't recall that. Again I must say that Understand the mentality of the spy, is for everyone's good, and since then, and even before I cases and I don't like to -- if that: is what you want. your mind and once you finish an operation you botch it up very neatly and shove it away. It Mr. Goldsmith, Did AMMUG provide any information in culture attache in Mexico City. TOP SECRET reference to a woman named Teresa Proenza Proenza? She was a
Docld: 322772271 ivr eculli 26 Mr, Hidalgo. I don't know. Again I don't recall that. Remember, my main objective with AMMUG was knowing of my opposite numbers in Cuba. Mr. Goldsmith. Is your testimony today that AMMUG never gave you personally any information concerning Oswald? Seco ee Mr. Hidalgo. That is my recollection, The name does not por up to me, That is one of the reports that I wrote down. Mr, Goldsmith. Did Mr, Swenson -- AMMUG's I guess case officer -- ever discuss with you the information that AMMUG grovided regarding Oswald? Mr. Hidalgo. No. Mr. Swenson was my direct superior. I reported to Mr. Swenson. Mr. Swenson did not report to me, Do you follow? Mr, Goldsmith. Yes. Mr, Hidalgo. So if I heard anything from him it was not my privy to know about it. He would review the information I got from AMMUG and if he ever came down to me and said, "What about this?" it would be something that I had written and he | | | ) dic not understand, Mr. Goldsmith, And he never asked you to question AMMUG | about Oswald? | Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir. | Mr, Goldsmith. Were your interrogation sessions with | AMMUG tape recorded? | | Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir. Mine were not, Remember, I was age 29 TAP SECRET
if 4 ne vi VEbAL 4. 3 an | 27 with him. Sometimes he would talk for ten, twelve, fourteen, i) sixteen hours, In the middle of the night he would get up and £ aS could not sleep. He would be worried about his family in Cuba. da | | | | | We would talk and play cards. All the time talking and cooper § | ating. I never bothered tape recording it, it was quite open. | gl Mr. Goldsmith. Were any of the sessions with AMMUG tape | 7 | recorded not necessarily involving you? | 3 Mr, Hidalgo, They may have, I don't know. | 3 | Mr, Goldsmith. Did you ever receive information about a | | 10 DGI case officer in Mexico City named Ernesto? | 1 Mr, Hidalgo. Ernesto, Yes, I believe I remember that | 2 | name but right now I could not tell you what it was, I prob- | 13 ably reported on it. | @ 14 Mr. Goldsmith, ‘pardon me? | 1 | Mr. Hidalgo. I probably reported on it then because that | F . ! 1 was something I was interested in. Any identification of DGI | 7 ) agents I would immediately take down, | : 3 Mr. Goldsmith, ‘Is this information that you would have | a | ebtained from AMMUG or from someone else? | +6 Mr. Hidalgo. From AMMUG probably or -- now wait. I : a! handled other defectors, remember, | : i Mr. Goldsmith. I understand, | . e a4 | Mr, Hidalgo. But the name Ernesto I believe would have - 2 been from AMMUG, ae | Mr, Goldsmith, Can you give the committee any more details d (0D Crear : DocId: 32277221 Page 30 asf 8 hw 5 sa
n> ro) ba an o a oO Docld: 322772271 operations. I don't know what his other input was. 28 about this particular officer? Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir, unless you have something to refres my memory. Mr. Goldsmith, I am told that this individual whom I referred to as Ernesto may have been an individual named Andres | ! i i | | i | Armona who also may have been a:red headed Cuban, Is that | familiar? | | Mr. Hidalgo. That name sounds familiar. Of course there. | are red headed Cubans so if that was said it would have ! impressed me that much but the name sounds like I might have : heard it, Again you have access to any of my records at the | time and if: it is there I would admit it but right now I cannot! recall the information. | Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know Win Scott? | Mr, Hidalgo. I know him as I know Mr. Berk. Not partic- ularly. Mr. Scott, here I am, Mr. Goldsmith. Who was Win Scott? Mr. Hidalgo, He was a member of the affair there of the Mr, Goldsmith. Was he station chief of the Mexico City station? i t Mr, Hidalgo. I seem to remember that he was but I never | ~~ I am-sorry. 1 i Mr. Goldsmith, How many personal contacts, if any, did you have with Mr, Scott? fe abe reg L. pg dame. ik. ab* ER i Nae ang
bw wy ba in i Docld: 32277221 BIRT Nei, | THe VPParr Page 32 rs § VR Aa gf : . 29 Mr. Hidalgo. None, Mr, Goldsmith, Were you involved in any operations for Mr. Scott? Mr. Hidalgo, I may have been involved in operations that he also was involved in, I don't know, but I was never directly responsible to Mr. Scott as such, None of my trips to Mexico were strictly TDYs and for one purpose only and so I was not privy to any operation that he had there. Mr. Goldsmith, Do you know an individual by the name of David Phillips? Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir. Mr. Goldsmith, Who was David Phillips? Mr. Hidalgo. David Phillips is a personal friend of mine and an intelligence officer, an excellent intelligence officer of the agency, Mr. Goldsmith. How did you get to know Mr. Phillips? Mr. Hidalgo, In day-to-day operations at Washington, Mr. Goldsmith, Did you know Mr, Phillips when he was in Mexico City? Mr, Hidalgo. I never saw him in Mexico City. I knew he was in Mexico City but I never met with him there, | Mr. Goldsmith. Were you involved in any operations with Mr. Phillips at.any time? Mr. Hidalgo. I was involved in operations in which Mr. Phillips was involved in but never together.
2¥a VEOAL y i Mr. Goldsmith. How often have you had personal contact. 5 : with Mr. Phillips? | | 3 Mr. Hidalgo. Then? \ | os 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Through the years. | | e 5 Mr. Hidalgo. Through the years after he retired I called | é | him. We belonged to the same association. We are both retired) 7 | and I talk to him. frequently. | | | 3 2 Mr. Goldsmith, Was your relationship with him both a | S business relationship as well as a personal friendship rela- | 10 : tionship? | 7 Mr, Hidalgo. Yes. More or actually friendship than 19 operational, | i | 7 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Did you know an individual named Maurice | ©@ 1 Bishop? | s Mr. Hidalgo. Again Mr. Bishop was in the organization but: 6 I had no personal day-to-day open relationship with him, | | 17 Phillips, yes; Bishop, no. I knew them both and Phillips I | 3 knew, I know Mr, Berk is over there and I know Mr. Hardway is 7 7 3 over there but I have no relationships with them, Do you | 39 follow me? : 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. TI believe you indicated that with | | - ' 4r, Phillips your relationship was both business and personal. | ~ e ~4 Mr. Hidalgo, Yes, | _ 7 Mr. Goldsmith, Now with Mr, Bishop -- was this Mr. Maurice i 1 : i ! { Bishop? tn ‘ i Io } TAB Oraart ‘ $F 2 ¥ —~ Docld: 32277221 Page 33 i & 4 4g an ay) cE = 4
i) sa m® Docld: 322772271 strictly a business knowledge. Maurice Bishop? way somewhere. with the agency? ; did not know, you know. with Mr. Bishop? Division? the details. Dave Phillips. = rAR Cranr a | We 2 84 a ies Swe YEU Y.. Mr, Hidalgo. I believe that was the name, yes. Mr, Hidalgo. I don't believe so, » that important that it would impress itself upon me. i 4 | i | | | | | } { ] { | | | Mr. Hidalgo. I think so but again I am not sure of all | | . : were familiar with Mr. Bishop who have known him? { | i t | ! 31 His was Mr. Goldsmith. How long has it been since you have seen Mr. Hidalgo. .-Less_than twice or three times in the hall Mr. Hidalgo, It would have to be’ before 1970 somewhere, | | Mr. Goldsmith, when was the last time that you saw him? | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what position, if any, he held | | Mr, Hildago. He held a position higher than mine but I Mr. Goldsmith, ‘Did you ever have any personal contact If it was, it was not Mr. Goldsmith, Did he work in the Western Hemisphere Mr. Goldsmith, Do you know any other individuals who Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know, Perhaps Mr. Swenson, perhaps Mr. Goldsmith.: Was Mr. Bishop's office located at CIA } ‘ ‘ | i | | | { f i |
b> ae @ oo  Docld: 32277221 Sogg 7” Nps peo. | JUS gLuhy § headquarters in Langley? 32 Mr. Hidalgo. I believe so. Mr. Goldsmith, Do you recali which floor his office was located on? Mr. Hidalgo. No, sir. Mr. Goldsmith, Do you know whether Mr. Bishop ever went by any other name? Mr, Hidalgo, No, sir, I have no knowledge of any of his other names, Mr. Goldsmith. Would you make your best effort, please, te describe Mr. Bishop's fiscal description? What did he look like? Mr, Hidalgo. I could not even make a mental image of Mr. Bishop right now. Mr. Goldsmith, Approximately how old is he today? Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know. This must seem strange to you, it really must, I know but, you see -- How can I say it? The relationship of one agent to another is a thing that you try your best not to -- not to know. Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Bishop an administrator or a case officer? Mr. Hidalgo, I would say his position was higher than mine. A little honcho against a chief. Mr, Goldsmith. Where did you generally see him on those occasions when you did see him? a2 % Sd A ead ry ; oesy aioe | xX was jAslbs ar: Page 35
rary ae q aon ao ‘oO Docld: 322772271 st io JUL OL Rg 4 Mr. Hidalgo, I imagine in the agency perhaps, edt an 33 Mr. Goldsmith, For example, in the hallway, in the ce feteria? Mr. Hidalgo. In the hallways or cafeteria. Never cer- tainly at my desk, Mr. Goldsmith, What is your best recollection as to the number of times that you saw him? Mr. Hidalgo. A couple of times, two or three, Mr. Goldsmith. When you saw this individual and you knew that he was Maurice Bishop, how did you know that the gentleman that you had in mind was not that Maurice Bishop? Mr, Hidalgo, Someone might have said, "That is Maurice Bishop," and it was different from Dave Phillips or Hal Swenson guvs that I know. Mr. Goldsmith, Did you know a man named Firgault? Mr, Hidalgo, I don't think so, Mr. Goldsmith, At this time I would like to show you an exhibit, I believe it is JFK Exhibit No, 104, and I would like to ask you to examine that and to tell the committee whether yo recognize that individual, Mr. Hidalgo. I don't believe SO, sir, Mr. Goldsmith, Thank you. You can put that aside now, Did you know an individual named Antonio veciana Blanc? Mr. Hidalgo. Now this name sounds familiar to me in my Cuban operation, I don't know where, It may have been with fai eee ligne ee ne eee sete neha: i
nm 3 , : @ 5 fe) ? 3 3 ie 1] i2 _ i3 .@ + 1s é WV 12 1g 20 Docld: 32277221 siz Lo es . iUf SLbAL tue brigade or he may have been an.agent literally hundreds -~ hundreds -- of the Mr. Goldsmith. Did Mr. Bishop have affairs of the brigade? By brigade I am Bay of Pigs operation, 34 of an agent. I knew .Cubans, any involvement in the not referring to the Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know if he did. I was not aware of everyone, He might very well have been involved in this thing, : Mr. Goldsmith: Getting back to Mr. Bishop, when was the first time you saw him to the best of your memory? Mr. Hidalgo, I would think about the early Sixties. Mr. Hidalgo. No, in the early Sixties until the last time which I believe you said would have been late 1964 or early 1965 I left the Cuban another country of interest, so in those left that particular area, you no longer Mr, Hidalgo. If I did, it would be Mr. Goldsmith, Were you ever formally introduced to him? Mr. Goldsmith, And from the time that you first saw him that you saw him, about 1969 or 1970, approximately how many times did you actually see this man? Mr, Hidalgo. It would not have been that late because in operations and went to times, say 1960 to 1964, it might have been two or three times. Mr. Goldsmith, Is it fair. to say in light of your last comment that once you stopped working in Cuban operations, you saw Mr. Bishop? just in the hallway ane I don't think so. I was now in another part of the agency TAD arf
~ 3 & ~ 4 « o 10 12 ¢ tm . . i) 1s ord fy 1d 19 20 mi ae . 49 : a Docld: 32277221 4 49 8” A WA Bh 8 SUP uduhigs | | 35 taking TDY trips for that part of the agency. Mr. Goldsmith, So by that, in other words that would irfer that Mr. Bishop worked in the area of Cuban operations? Mr. Hidalgo. No, not necessarily. He might have worked in ~- you know, there are so many operations, He might have been transferred to somewhere else, I don't know. You see, where in the case of Hal Swenson and pave Phillips I continued to seek them out and say, "How are you, Dave? How are you doing?" Go to lunch, play some poker. In the case of Bishop this is not so, Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever see Mr. Bishop at the JM wave station? Mr. Hidalgo. No. In the JM wave station you have to understand that I.was assigned to the IM wave station but I stayed away from the mM wave Station. It sounds peculiar. I was assigned there and yet I was not there, I was assigned there shortly after I went there and met my own cover and did my own operations. So-when I did go to the JM wave station, it was just a matter of just quickly in and get it over with. Mr. Goldsmith, Did you ever see Mr. Bishop's picture in the newspaper? Mr. Hidalgo. I may have, I don't recall, There was a time there after early 1964 where you could have asked me to identify my children and I could not have done it. That is wnen I had my second stroke and that.was when I left JM wave... nl HS B “ BY} 2 q 4 age 35 & & a Wo co aa 4 3 5 i
_ 36 I was evacuated actually out. Mr, Goldsmith, But you are certain nevertheless that re) during your stay at the agency on at least two or three occa- | sions you saw an individual whom you knew to be Maurice Bishop? da Mr, Hidalgo. Whom someone told me, "That is Maurice on Mr. Goldsmith. Mr, Chairman, I have no further questions | at this time. I may have a few follow-up questions. If the ry) committee has questions, I will yield at this time. NO = ” : / in to see just casually at the CIA are -- I don't know how to put 10 4 ' Mr, Preyer, All right. ot Mr, Fithian, 12 | Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 13 Do you get any feel for whether other people that you get this -- higher or lower on the pecking order? i$ \6 Mr. Hidalgo. Pardon? iF : Mr. Fithian, Do you have a feel for an individual that | 3 ! you see casually over at the agency as to whether or not they tS | are higher up in the structure? | | | 20 | Mr. Hidalgo, A feeling? i 1 Mr, Fithian. Yes. : Mr. Hidalgo.. You mean when I was working at the agency tm to r J 4 uy if I saw someone --. Mr, Fithian. You didn't see them, you were not working with them every day, you just see them from time to time, do > n =3 a HY psaeia fl Docld: 322772271 Page 39
nh Ce) da an om “oO =?) Docld: 32277221 ' 4 I Fl i ! t 4 1 t i ' tt t 1 4 t i i 4 t : 1 { ' } ' : ‘ 3 i ; i t { i | i i | | | | | | | | | | i | | | | { | i t ii st 4 it i | 4 i | you get a feel, whether by eating lunch or what they are doing,/; as to whether they are above you in rank or equal or whatever? Washington and not for Win Scott, the chief of the Mexican “station? someone's area on an operation, they would be advised that I Page 40 69a BLORE a. i 37 | | I | Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, I think I know what you are trying to | | | i | i | -Say. Essentially, yes, sir. Mr. Fithian. Do you have an impression that Biship was higher? Mr. Hidalgo. I would say he was a higher grade than I was. Mr. Fithian. Higher grade than you were? Mr. Hidalgo. Of course I was not a very high grade. | | Mr. Fithian. That is the only question I had, Mr. Chair- |! ‘man, | ! Mr, Preyer. Was your office in Langley in the CIA head- ! quarters? | Mr. Hidalgo. Yes. At the time I was in headquarters, : That is where I went. | Mr, Preyer. And Dave Phillips' office was also there? | Mr.. Hidalgo. Yes, sir. | Mr. Preyer. And you would go out occasionally on missions| such as going down to Mexico? Mr, Hidalgo, Yes, sir. i 1 t i | | ! { i i Mr. Prever. But you would be working for the CIA in Mr. Hidalgo. That is correct, sir. When I went to f Ge 3 a oe ma VL PaGEe
Yoga hood Bek 4 13d VLuTiL | would be coming into the country. Meeting with them, no. If 2 I need any contact, if I got into trouble and needed something, 3 I would always be able to call and they would recognize the a 4 | name and they would assist me if they could. e 5 } Mr, Preyer. You say you knew Dave Phillips well but you 6 didn't have an operation relationship with him, you didn't work > with him on operations. 3 Mr. Hidalgo, That is correct, sir. It is just, you know, | 3 two guys that met and happened to like each other. 10 | Mr. Preyer. Was his office near yours? 7 Mr. Hidalgo. It was on the same floor, 2 Mr. Preyer. Was he higher in rank or lower in rank than t "3 you? @ a Mr. Hidalgo. Higher, sir, 13 i Mr. Preyer. And . Maurice Bishop.'s office was not on 6 the same floor as yours in Langley? 1 Mr, Hidalgo. I don't know. It was a very large floor 13 and there were many people on the floor that had nothing to 6 do with what I had to do, 39 | . Mr, Preyer. Did Bishop have some relationship in his 20 | 3 appearance and age to Phillips? . al Mr. Hidalgo. Again I. cannot recall Bishop's appearance . 22 ; ny Mr. Preyer. Do you recall more on the name when people — a4 ae | said, "That is Maurice. Bishop"? | THD erTpar Docld: 322772271 Page 41 a | A a6: to Ag LE in i
nd aa on Docld: 32277221 an Mr. Hidalgo. Maurice a secretary or a fellow cas Mr. Preyer. All right Well, let me just ask answer this. Who is AMMUG? name, etc, Right now I can first name I believe was Vl dentially was Laddie. Mr. Preyer. He was a Mr. Preyer. Who was c Mr. Goldsmith. Thank questions if I may proceed. a couple of minutes here, & Sepeaireneabnanes Page 42 | | Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir. | | | ! | | VEIL 4d Bishop,. right. It might have bean e officer or someone. . Thank you, one other question. Staff might Do we know him by any other name? At one time I could give you his only give you his first name, His adimer and the name I used confi- Cuban defector? Mr. Hidalgo. Yes, sir. onnected with Cuban intelligence? Mr. Hidalgo, yes, sir. Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I state for the record the committee does have this individual's true name but just for ‘sake of security we are not referring to it. Mr. Preyer. All right. Mr. Hidalgo. I appreciate that. you, Mr, Preyer. Thank you. I have no further questions. Mr. Goldsmith, Mr. Chairman, I have just a few more How much time do I have? Mr. Preyer, Mr. Fithian andI will have to leave. you in Will it take you more than a few minutes or so?. We have got to go and vote, Teco |
q rs (eT) ow oO Docld: 32277221 vEL ee (a: bre 40 Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, . Mr, Preyer. The committee will stand in recess for about tar. minutes, (Whereupon, at 4:11 p.m., the committee recessed until. 4-24 p.m.) Mr, Preyer. The committee will resume its session. Mr, Goldsmith. Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you, Mr, Chairman. I will try to be brief. I have a few more questions for you, Mr. Hidalgo. Do you know whether David Phillips knew Meurice Bishop? Mr. Hidalgo. I don't know that. He may have known him but I don't know that. Mr, Goldsmith, Is it possible that the name Maurice Biship may have been an alias? Mr, Hidalgo. Very possible. Mr. Goldsmith. Why do you say that? Mr, Hidalgo. Because others in the agency thought that fact it was not. Mr. Goldsmith. So the use of aliases even at agency headquarters was not at all uncommon, is that true, to your knowledge? Mr. Hidalgo, That is true, | oy paeanes Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Maurice Bishop was Page 43 they Knew me by X name and they called me by that name when in
nw wy da in ran @ wy) o wo Docld: 322772271 mee J9e VLE | t Mr, Hidalgo. No, sir. 42 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any knowledge of any political assassination plots on the part of the CIA during the period 1960 through 1964? Mr. Hidalgo. Let me answer this way. “I-have-no -- as my attornry knows, I wanted to make a statement to this effect at the start, if I may make it now. I now nor never knew of any assassination plot by anyone in the United States Government, in any agency of the United States Government, any knowledge of any assassination plot, | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Hidalgo, I asked you earlier whether you knew what the term Domestic Exploitation Section referred i to and I believe your testimony was that you did not. Mr. Hidalgo. That is right. It didn't make sense to me. Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the Domestic Exploi- tation Section is a section that would have contacted persons in the United States -- for example, relatives of people who lived overseas -- in order to recruit those persons or to have ‘those persons assist the agency to recruit persons living overseas to assist the agency? Mr. Hidalgo. That might have been the domestic operations; but exploitation just does not make sense. You are right, it certainly could be something like that. Mr. Goldsmith. I have no further questions at this time, Thank you, Mr. Hidalgo. Pye erparr Page 45 4M EE WS ud Aa ia A
no & ba yn oO we cu Docld: 32277221 Send ty Vee 4. 43 | Mr, Fithian. I have:.a question, Mr. Chairman. On that last question, Mr. Hidalgo, that seems like such | a logical arrangement, whatever the name of it. As far as you know is that -— Mr. Hidalgo. It is a logical thing. It is a very logical sense, Mr, Fithian. Do you know if the agency engages in that? Mr. Hidalgo. I would imagine they are. It is a form of intelligence, Why not? Mr. Fithian. But do you of your personal knowledge know | | | | { that is or is not done? i ‘ Mr. Hidalgo. I have done it myself, yes, sir. Mr. Fithian, Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Preyer. Thank you, Mr. Hidalgo, We appreciate your being here today. Under our rules when a witness completes his testimony if "e or his counsel would care to make a statement for five minutes or less he is entitled to do so. If there is anything. further you would like to say at this time or add by way of explanation of any questions you may have answered, the committee will be glad to hear from you. © > ns FAIA pn SS SS a = Mr. Hidalgo. I can only sav, sir, that I came here a little afraid that I would have to name people whose lives ~ would have been in jeopardy if that name became known and to talk about things that would have placed me under possible OPA Fs VeGea i AS 2 4 ty a Page 46 os im OF:
Docld: 32277221 w da oO DOTS SU Le SS es Leesa ee ear nneO ane | 4 Page 47 swe YVR Y aq fe 4 44 criminal charges if I had done so. I am glad and I appreciate very much the way it has been handled and that such subjects have not come up. I thank you very much for the way you have cenducted it, Mr. Preyer. Thank you, Mr. Hidalgo. We appreciate your cooperation with the committee, | At this time the committee stands recessed. (Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the subcommittee recessed.) emer afl