JFK Assassination System Date: 10/14/20 Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : HSCA 180-10116-10323 RECORD SERIES: TRANSCRIPTS OF EXECUTIVE SESSION HEARINGS AGENCY FILE NUMBER : Document Information ORIGINATOR: HSCA . FROM: TO: TITLE: DATE: 04/06/1978 PAGES: 31 SUBJECTS : CIA, FILES CIA, METHODOLOGY OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO MEXICO HSCA, FINAL REPORT HSCA, METHODOLOGY HSCA, ADMINISTRATION DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION : — Unclassified RESTRICTIONS: — Open in Full ; CURRENT STATUS:  Redact DATE OF LAST REVIEW: — 08/17/1993 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Rules amendments attached. Box 1. Folder title: 4-6-78, 4:00 pm. v9.1 Docld: 3272766675 Page 1
RESOLVED: a 8 pte RULE S AMENDMENT ao majority must be present) The Rules are hereby amended, by adding a new section 13.11 to provide as follows: 13.11 Docld: 3277666735 Page 2? Members who desire access to restricted (including classified and confidential) or sensitive information that has in addition been designated by the Chairman ' as primary information, shall be required to request such access in writing to the Committee. Each such request by a Member “must be considered by the Committee, a majority being present, at the earliest | opportunity. The Committee may, by record - vote, grant the Member's request. If the Member's request is not granted, the Committee shall forward the Member's re- quest, together with a recommendation and report of the Committee, to the House. It the Committee did not grant the Member's ‘request, the Member shall have access to the “primary information only subsequent to a determination by the House that the Member's request should be granted.
‘i 3NN 7TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, O.C. 2902" (202) S5u-23u5 a eo °*6 / ‘Docld: 32266676 Page 3 mM 1-1 | special gounsel ; William Cross, security pificer; Elizabeth Berning, ghiet dlerk; and Marion Wills, Peputy dnies fleck. — id = at this time, the committee is called to order. I recognize Mr. Blakey for a statement with reference to this. ‘Mr. Blakey. There are several matters that could be brought up. One of them, I suppose, technically should be | | considered in public session about the deals with the change ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Pirectors Gary Cornwell, Peputy ghiet pounsel; I. C. Mathews, Chairman Stokes. A quorum of the committee being present =, { | “a rs Comm ite. Heefing { | RXECUTIVE-SESSION— | | a eee | CONSIDERATION CF AN AMENDMENT TO THE ROLES | | CF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS | joes "A | yee THorspay; Cre Hoey APRIL Ae 1978 | ms { | 4S.House of Representatives , M71 Select Committee on- atl | = ae Washington, D. C.Zf | = = . . ‘ | Y one committee met, pursuant to notice at 4% p.m., in | room 384 of the Cannon House Office Building, ion. Louis | Stokes, (chairman of the committe), ‘presiding. | Present: Representatives Stokes (presiding), Preyer, || pauntroy, Dodd, Ford, Fithian, Edgar, Dévine and Sawyer. 4 / Present also: G. Robert Blakey, ghiet gounsel and | ne
REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 29024 (202) S54-2345 S.W, 300 7TH STREET, Docld: 322766676 in the rules. Nevertheless, the reasons for the change in the rules goes to the heart of the nature of our current investigation and consequently, I think it would be appropriate for a motion to be made to close the meeting. Pf chairman Stokes. The chair will entertain such a motion Mr. Fauntroy. I so move. Chairman Stokes. It is moved that the meeting go into executive session. The clerk will call the roll. MgS. Berning. Mr. Stokes. Chairman Stokes. Aye. MgS . Berning. Mr. Devine. Mr. Devine. Aye. ——\ . Mus. Berning. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Preyer. Aye. — . . M&S . Berning. Mr. McKinney. [znere=was No response) Mas . Berning. Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Fauntroy. Aye. _ . Mas. Berning. Mrs. Burke. [Breve—wes No response.] Mes . Perning. Mr. Sawyer’. Mr. Sawyer. Aye. rigs . Berning. Mr. Dodd. Mr. Dodd. Aye. “——s . Mgs . Rerning. Mr. Ford. ALQERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. |
DoctlId: 2002% (202) S54-2345 D.c, WASHINGTON, S.WU. REPORTERS BUILDING, 300 7TH STREET, 322766676 | membership has been gone for the last week and this is really | the first opportunity that we have had. hearings. The problem really goes as follows: In the centra il case study is the Mexico City issue. The Agency has given us complete access to everything in this area and this includes S we. Borg. . Aye. “——\ Megs. Berning. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Fithian. Aye. ———~ . = Mes. Berning. Mr. Edgar. Mr. Edgar. Aye. —~ . . a MES « Berning. There are nine ayes, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Stokes. Nine members having voted in the { affirmative, this meeting is now declared in executive sesso and all members of the public are asked to excuse themselves | | from the room. Mr. Blakey. “Let me see if I can present the problem to you as succinctly as I can, although perhaps I should begin | with an apology to the committee for bringing about a meeting of the full committee on such short notice. | Obviously, there has been a recess and some of the | | | | | | The problem has come up during the recess in our efforts, to work with the Central Intelligence Agency in preparing we | the nature of the surveillance that the Agency had of the | Russian and Cuban Embassies. | i They had photographic and electronic surveillance of both i [ 5 i { f ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
places. This covered the crucial periods of time, more or less, and that is a big question, more or less. And I now have to say that the person alleged to have been Oswald went | in the embassy. 7 Nevertheless, the Agency never came up with a photograph of Oswald coming in and out of the Agency. Indeed they sent | back up to Washington the wrong photograph. This has given | rise to the whole problem of the mysterious plan. | The significance of the issue of the investigation | literally speaks for itself. If Oswald did not go in and apply for that visa, and someone else did, then it is obvious SS ——————————— z w Sy —_ | om 1 rs S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 2902" (202) SS5"~23945 12 | that Oswald had an associate. If he had an associate, the. eo ‘13 single assassin theory is in real serious trouble. 14 } What we need to do is to pursue in our hearings for your ig | benefit our ability to understand what went on down. in Mexico. _ we have witnesses scheduled for the hearings and we now asked | "Tene Central Intelligence Agency to make available to us those: 5 “| materials dealing with the surveillance, which are sill-sensi4 é “| tive and they go right to the heart of sensitive sources and. E | methods. But the Agency prefers not to disclose them. = | and they frankly have no objection to this committee looking |}at them and they have no objection to us, at least in dealing / | | | | Now, they have no objection to the staff looking at them - | j | | with Agency employees, using or pursuing these matters in the | i hearings, but then they say to us the following: "But what dq nd “a | | . DERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ‘Docld:32266678 Page 6 ALDERSON R oo
20024 (202) S5H-23945 n.c, REPORTERS BUTLDING, WASHINGTON, WW, Ss 3AN 7TH STREET, oe °* ; Docld: 322766673 | y | Mr. Blakey. We discussed that with them and the kind of | | | | | 1-8 | Agency simply will not permit us to explore sensitive sources | and methods like the Mexico issue in our hearings and the onl way we will get the information out of the Agency is by a ver | sensitive declassification process in the Agency first. We | need to have the information cover here to work with it. Y 1£ we bring it over here to work with it and cannot give them some protection in the context of Kule ll, they will not | | give it to us. That is the dilemma you are in. I am prepared to discuss with you the exact language of | | ule 11 and the exact language of the Intelligence Committee's rule, and Ms . Berning has for you the text cf the rule change. | . | Mr.. Sawyer. Would it be feasible to enter into an a agreement with the Agency that gave them the right to recall when € at any time, they want the documents covered by the agrement, | so if they were advised that there was now a request to revie | them, we would get a binding agreement and give it back to \ feeling that they had, and that we had, was that once they give us the documents ‘to work with over here, including our ! ie 1 Own transcriptsg,in other words, if we have a closed order | | | examination of an Agency employee over what was going on in | Mexico, it is hard to argue that our transcript of that ee ep ne en [nearing is a document that they gave to us and they can ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. | Page 10
that once we put it in our hearings, it is ours. CO C) then fule ll is explicit that what is ours belongs to th 1-9 2 | recall. And I think we just have to bite the bullet and say | House and that is every member of the House. rm "7 effect Geclassify it, it will not come out. | Mr. Fithian. It will not what? | | ~ . . { : We triéd that, Mr. Sawyer. 2 8 | a, Mr. Sawyer. I just threw it ovt. c 7 = = + | Mr. Fithian. Well, then, Eob, what you are saying is = } e i that if we get a document that shows some very, very sensitive \ a aspects of surveillance and we make that a part of our record, : . 3 10 when we get ready to fold up shop, in our records is this | G | = !1 | document where we require the maximum security, and the = | = 12 | inability then of the Assassination Committee to make ae |e toe © = 13] available to the public our record falls ‘seriously into “3 14 || question first. . _ ' eS 6 Mc. Blakey. I think that is true. There are certain 5 fo | : oO H ; ti , | things, ang in other words when we are dealing with what | 3 | > | nappened in the assassination, everything cannot be made i “17 . | & | public. If we begin dealing with the way in which certain | we 18 | : \ & 7 | things were learned, I think we have to recognize that that | = 19 | | ~~ ) Probably, unless we can convince the Pkecutive Bepartment to | = 20 | | | | i r) pee 2 | Mc. Blakey. It will not be made public. i 23 | Mr. Fithian. What physically happens to it then? | 2 | Mr. Blakey. Well, it would be part of our record and it | 28 \ i . | t | : | ALDCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Docld: 3272766675 Page il
K INN 7TH STREET, S.4. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 2002" (202) S5H-23n5 Jy DocId: 32266676 1-16 4 will be in effect classified in our records and our records | { | will probably be turned over towt I suspect the best ceectvor! would be the House Intelligence Committee. Y For example, the Agency had a surveillance on the russia Embassy, that is a wire tap, and the physical surveilance, a | photographing surveillance, a sensitive surveillance to the highest degree, and it poses potential problems for the existing Mexican Government. “Mr, Fithian. I am in full support of the proposition an = _— = I want to see, once you go back to Cornell and we go back to our committees, what actually happens to that? Mr é'Blakey. Those documents will go to the Intelligence ‘Committee who will look them up like the other documents that ‘they have. The other answer is, to the degree that a | 4 | | | | | | | question comes up, who was the person who applied ‘for the ‘vted application in Mexico City, and can we believe what the: Agency, tells us, which calls immediately into guestion the nature of | their surveillance, the wire taps and the photographs and.as we can talk ina minute about what came out in Cuba. | | | | The Cuban Government has provided to us as a witness the | a . man who filled out the visa application.. Mr. Devine. Those are free from the Freedom of | | | Information Act, and they are in the custody of the | | Intelligence Committee? | Mr. Blakey. Because it is in the possession of Congress | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 12
REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) S$54-2345 S.W. 300 7TH STREET, Docld: 32266673 ‘Page 1-11 | | which is exempted from that. The witness given to us i Mexico, who was in Mexico at the time, says that his memory 4 that the person who filled out the application was not the same person who Jack Ruby shot in Dallas. | DW wow, there is a lot of corroboration that we have to do | and verification of that, and he gave it as his best memory | and "I am not saying this is what happened, but it is my memory of what happened; the person who dealt with me is not the person that I remember," and the ages were different and || the weights were different and the heights were different and i the facial shape was different. If there were two people in Mexico City, one of which wa Oswald and one which was ‘Rot, there were two people for a Whatever else we have seriously” undermined, if we believ | ‘that testimony we have undermined the single assassin theory So, it is right at the heart of what we have to do now, to ge | access and be able to use the photographs the Agency took of || the people who walked in and out of the building. For us to get it, they have to either declassify it or they have to give it to us in such a way that they are reasonably assured that some exercise of discretion will be | | | conspizacy. | . _— | | ! | t | | | | | : imade before every member of the House gets immediate access t | Hit. . Mr. Fauntroy, I have two questions. It is my | | ALSERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. } 13 ; .
O.C. 2002% €202) S54-2345 SHARPTON, e ~ REPORTERS BUTLDING, A 300 7TH STREET, SU. Docld: 32266675 Ww te in ao 214 understanding that CIA is willing to risk a Floor procedure? i t ur. Blakey. Yes. Mr. Fauntroy. My second question, therefore, is: How do you distinguish the House Intelligence Committee and its rules } from that of our Select fPonmittee? Mr. Blakey. Well, I think the House Intelligence | Committee rule is in opposition to Rule ll. They have adopted a rule in contradiction tc the Riles of the House. As a lawyer, I say @® and I cannot suggest to you that you adopt | their rule. Their rule explicitly says that the House Intelligence Committee can deny you access to a document in their possession. | Rule 11 of the House says that if it is in possession, | they can condition your access, time place and manner but: this} cannot deny it. : oo | [ Mr. Pauntroy. My only concern, Mr. Chairman, therefore ; | is that we get access. Now, if we can get access through this: means, that is fine. but if we cannot, if the House Intelligence Committee can do it, for the sake of our mandate, | | So! I have no objection to adopting their rule. | . i Mr. Sawyer. That is the way I feel about it, too. ! Chairman Stokes. Do we have a copy of the House ! Intelligence Committee Rule? Mr. Fithian. May I come in here? I am not the careful stickler on this, Mr. Blakey, but it would seem to me that we | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. , !