157-10011-10024 JFK Assassination System Date: 7/30/201 Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY:  SSCIA RECORD NUMBER: — 157-10011-10024 RECORD SERIES: TRANSCRIPT AGENCY FILE NUMBER : Document Information ORIGINATOR:  SSCIA FROM: COLBY, WILLIAM E. TO: TITLE: SSC] TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY . DATE: 05/21/1975 PAGES: 113 SUBJECTS : ; CASTRO SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF DCI WILLIAM COLBY OPERATION MONGOOSE CUBA DOCUMENT TYPE: PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT. ~ CLASSIFICATION : — Unclassified RESTRICTIONS: — Consulted; 1B; Donor Restricted CURRENT STATUS: Redact DATE OF LASTREVIEW: 05/04/1994 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : SSCI Box 239, Folder 14 v9.1 HY 50955 Docld: 32203792 Page 1
“wy Cv nei “t3 en5 one rey zed Di sclosure Subject { . Vol. 2 @ Ole United States Senate R | 17 CHS INVENTGRIED? - 4 of Ven CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO _— ON s\ie) v DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR , Ve RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT 8 AS SANITIZED eport of Proceedings couatiete Ret Bp a iedty valida? Hearing held before Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Ressect to Intelligence Activities us “we - Record Number 157-10011-10024 ab COMMITTEE HEARING SSCI Box 239, Folder 14 Wednesday, May 21, 1975 Washington, D.C. (Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over to the Committee for destruction) WARD & PAUL 410 FIRST STREET, S. E. QB WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003 6 - (202) 44.6000 Th p ree cy
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 LO Ll L2 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15: 16 1? 18 19 O.C. 20003 21 22 23 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 20° Cuban exile leader. And he offered -- and he said that he could do something of this nature provided he got some funds and the assistance. And he was supported in this regard. 30 the first man contacted by Mr. Maheu, worked through a And I think again we have some doubts as to the accuracy of his reporting. | Mr. Schwarz. | In November 1961 did Mr. Bissell indstruct | a William Harvey to take charge of the gambling syndicate operation designed to kill Fidel Castro? Page 3 of Mr. Greer's report, which is at the beginning of your report. Mr. Colby. I believe so, yes. | Yes. That is what our evidence says, the summary - sais, "of the evidence available". And this is the evidence available in 1963. And there have been some minor changes in some of the details of this summary,very minor changes. But the essence of this report is still roughly accurate, I Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Harvey -- was Mr. Harvey the man that had hired an agent in order to kill Lmumba? Mr. Colby. Mr. Harvey was the head of Staff D, Stafi D of the Operations directorate ati i . Sh RES Pacsobns 1b leggkorg Tunes aScee AoE HENS oC pee Re WS SOGEet Neyol.” KSstosts | | believe. | : | HW 50955 DBocld: 322039792 Page 4
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 ee) some people who are able to do this kind of work, which is quite different from the normal life style of most of. us. Mr. Harvey had been a very venturesome officer in the past. He was responsible for the Berlin tunnel... And he was sent down to take this job. And he assumed as part of it the | capability of -- he was given by Mr. Bissel this chore of carrying on this particular operation as well. Mr. Schwarz. Had he been the person who had, in connection with the abortive effort to kill Mr. Lmumba, hired an agent for that purpose? Mr. Colby. I have forgotten whether hehired him. He t(@) 3 hired a foreigner. And this foreigner's job -@ references that an additional assignment was to look into the possible assassination of Mr. Lmumba. The evidence is that he went down to what is now Kinshasa, Elizabethville in 1960, stayed there a few weeks, and left in October, I believe. And then Mr. Lmumba was killed thereafter in a totally There is some indication that a CIA officer who was asked to have something to do with this particular job said he did “not want to do it. | separate set of circumstances in which we had nothing te do. i | Docld:32203792 Page 5
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 11 ‘Le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Re 24 4iu-cirst Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 28. 29 me Nt id Rin wid Wed RS Uh Me Bh was not advised of the assassination a etivities. Quite likely -I cannot say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation system was such. Chairman Church. What was the name of the CIA agent who was given the responsibility for liaison between the CIA and the Warren Commission? Mr. Colby. To my knowle dge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca. Chairman Church. Where is it now? Mr. Colby. He retirad at the end of December of last year. He remained working for us for a few months. ‘I think he is retired. I think he is retired. I believe he is still in the Washington area. Mr. Knoche. Yes, -he is still working with us. Mr. Colby. Still working with us to help on the transi- tion of the whole counter intelligence program. Chairman Church. why did he retire? Mr. Colby. That was the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, and the facts of that case were that T had had some professional diffetencés in_thé organization with Mr. Angleton as to the Directorate and of the Agency. We had debated this on various occasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973 an took a number of functions away from it. The liaison with the TOR SoG HW.50955 Docld: 32203792 Page 6
o 8 1 a 2 z 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll , 12 he f & 13 fe] & @: uu 15 16 17 18 - 19 “3g 20 ° 8 21 5 22 2 23 Fe 2 24 3 25 our other divisions. We debated this and discussed it and Tf that people would loose if they stayed after that point. T! = ae om mer ee “ome oo um eee om aacotme coe. better 22 Also, I believed that there was a undue degree of compart mentation of that staff, that it needed more interchange with rT set as my time limit for this discussion the end of Decemher because there were some very substantial retirement benerits J ee unfortunately the Seymour Hirsh article of December 22nd cams to our attention before it was actually published, and so I brought Mr. Angleton up and said that I was going to make two offer him a post of tying together some counterintelligenc doctrine, he could stay working with us. He did not heve te TOP SECRE HW. 50955 Docld: 32203792 Page 7 ee ee nee einer en eae aenemnae _ L..
Phone (Aréa 202) 544-6000 ' WARD & PAUL 4410 First Streat, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 Gt 1s 16 19 (18 L9 assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in cr fry er] Chinese Communists subsequently blamed the Chinese Mationali and the US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft employes had fled to Taiwan. We had nothing to do with that incident and frankly heard about it after it occurred. My My He a [a- ie) IH In the fall of 1956, a senior Chinese Nationalist o informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National planned to November '56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest cf the Chinese Nationalist cfficer sent to Fhnom Penh to surerviss the attempt. We learned of this after it had happened and we had nothing to do with it. ee hte ‘ ea A ek (2, z i & BE OX ag (epsanigisnva eile owojuns These are two that ware separate. . | Alsce I was asked to look at the photographs of Howard Hunt and Sturgis that appeared in Newsweek some years ago. We obtained this photograph from the FBI last night about 5 o'clock). We had not had it before. Wa had a copy of the Newsweek edition. . . These are photographs of Howard Hunt in 1949, 1950 and is6i. This is the only photograph we have of Mr. Sturgis. It is taken out of the Newsweek. nad SO WS have oy. We nave hed ne connection with Mr. Sturgis a] a =o DocId: 32203792 Page 3
“re SIS MA SEF et WR bet KE g 1 | individuals in it. S 2 : Senator Schweiker. Did you get the other photograph, th 3 3 5 supvosad Oswald photograph leaving the Embassy? E ‘| Mr. Colby. I don't have that with me. It is in the 5 | Warren Commission published report. It is in there. 6 Senator Schweiker. It is in there? 8 conceal where it was taken but it was =~ 9° Senator Schweiker. It is in the Warren Commission? 10 Mr. Colby. Yes, it is in the Warren Commission. Just one additional matter. il 12 Chairman Church. Just one thing I would like to say to 3 you, Mr. Colby, before I forgat it. WARD & PAUL 9 Mr. Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to | Vel ERMIOrS S@iitsa Mr. Colby. Right. . 18 . SC Chairman Church. And I think you should prepare to ” 19 8 discuss it with us and we will have further questions to ask. 5 20 « s you in connection with it. g 21 E I just wanted to give you notice. = 22 ul Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a < 23 : ' covert action but that is all right, no problem, I will cover | z | | £ | it. | { | | -WW 50955 Doclda:32203792. Page 9 oO ae re cme _. .
‘TOP SECRET 2 2 8 3 1 & 12 them. i Mr. Harvay was given the responsibility of this by Mr. a . i. ° Bissel and originally it continued as a Separate action from 2 ; g a & 4 the Castro operation, but Mr. Harvey was also given that responsibility, and for all intents and purposas thay bacema wedded. ap as a project. ZR Rifle had a dual purposes that has not veen which meant that rather than the usual vouchers supporticg WARD & PAUL jt Cn ra uxpenditureas, that the officer involved would simply certify vr “a nat the money had basen spent and this would be accented. . It had a project amount of some dollars, $7509 ~ $19,099 -- oY i y | . ; . Mr. Helms was the person who formally approved 2R Rifle i t | some of it to include the salary of an agent, some to include 1 : | 2 19 So Mr. Helms’ main appearance in the approval of ZR Riftl S - v 20 doas not necessarily equates with the date when hs became G § 2 ; e a1 familiar with the Castro operation. 5 CI ee i : fo4t . . £ nf Fle Ri my = | Mr. Schwarz. Bsacause of the dual purposes oF Rairie, Rit. f | ‘ { * 23 | a7 . , f 3 | means both, rifle files ani usad rifles? 3s H = ij a il ¥ 24 | E | ° = £5 Il t H Hl HW 50955 Bocla: 32203792 Page 10 see enn ee ee eee tsb Ash i. a re
mn lt. 5 Thomas jt Gl Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 Ll 12 13 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 tw 0 | | ‘operation, which, among other thin GS, was to develop an execut tet TOP Siener | °° Mr. Schwarz. November 1961? Mr. Breckinridge. I think that is probably correct. It. was in the fall of 1961 that Mr. Harvey was given this assignmen of the dates, 'So Mr. Bissel would have known at that time. But I am not sure after that. Chairman Church. Helms succeeded Mr. Bissel as chief of operations? Mr. Colby. “Deputy Director of Plans. Chairman Church. Deputy Director for Plans. Your record shows that Helms had knowledge of the 2R Rifle vi " capability -- whatever chet means, Precunabty thet means a capability to conduct an assassination if and when authorized by proper authority? Mr. Breckinridge. That is my understanding. Chairman Church. Is that your understanding? Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir. Chairman Church. Do your records show that, or is that “ based upon what has been revealed through your interrogation Mr. Breckinridge. First, let me go back and clarify, then I will answer this question, if I may. My understanding, from my interviews, is that 2h Ritle had t Gea S " by Mr. Bissel. I think Mr. Bisse. left in 1962. I am not sure | | i 1 | | | { { I i $ | | ! HW 50955 Docld: 32203792 Page Li
smn 1 Thomas t. 7 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 416 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HY 4509545 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 al 90 | Chairman Church. Senator Hart. Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Colby, in connection with ZR Rifle, I think you testified or your associate said this was Co ja multi-purpose operation Mm pefand the development of the capability of what euphemistically is called ‘executive. action. In your professional judgment, and with your history of 5 & ae +83] so your background in the Agency, does it make any sense to you t! a major operation, a major intelligence gathering operation about whom all I know is that Mr. Harvey has a packcround of something like a Soldier of fortune, and funded at the level, I should say, of $7500 to $10,000? Does it not suggest to you that#secighl BCOGcS’ was in 48 fact an internal cover for what was explicitly an assassination operation with unlimited, non-voucher financial capability? In the first place, Mr. Harvey had a very succesSful tour in Berlin where he ran the Berlin tunnel operation, which was one of our major successful intelligence operations. | Mr. Colby. No, not that it is purely a cover. 1 BDocld: 322703792 Page i2
smn < TOP oes =e | - gl He was in the assignment of Chief of the FI Division staff. serrate a te Sennett 544-6000 i a g : iJ ¢ < | o Lo ° & * i t i | 7 | 8 | Now, the thing that puts it together with this “capability”, 9 jexecutive action, is the high degree of compartmentation of | ~ material, that kind of a project. ! | | Fs | | 2 bd | & | | 3 i { | | 16 | ‘You also are dealing with some very venturesome peopis it . j | ——— : | ee . a eT eS olee. ~_ mn a \ q i ! | } | | 19 | So, given you have a man who had some good technical | ‘ £0 | experience, who is a venturesome type himself and is running 2 5 21 || program which is not too far off the requirements of high | E 22 |; compartmentation, and a very hich risk kind of operation, and | { “ 23 , therefore, for Nr. Bissel to have selected i vey te ‘ : | | a i % 24 |! : & | = i i BW 50955 Docld: 32203792 Page 13
: Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 Ll 12 13 14 WARD & PAUL. 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20063 ~ aw] HW 50955 Docld: TOP SECRET | 52 as well as this other activity. Now, in the lifestyle at the time, not mentioning the second one, this gets back into the recordkeeping that we have been discussing. It was not to be put on the record although to be done. That is a perfectly proper hypothesis, it seems to me, but to say that fimepec stealing wet only a cover I think is | te probably an unwarranted conclusion. Senator Hart of Colorado. What about the level of funding lof $7,500 to $10,000? Mr. Colby. That is not very much money for that kind of an operation. Senator Hart of Colorado.. Precisely. I think it is too Mr. Colby. No. For a capability of that nature, it is largely a staff operation. In other words, you use your own staff officers. You may hire an agent or something, but I dontt j think you can draw much conclusion from the actual number on lithe figure one way or the other. : | | i i | | | | Little. | re | ! | i | 5 | { { i This might not have been the only such project. You know, an assasSination project would cost you more money than tnat, Senator Hart of Colorado. Absolutely. Mr. Colby. I find it hard to say that that is the only amount of money invelved. I think you cet into a situation where additional money would be put into either of those kinds a | TQS SER cay ss] fg Stet © ia — | | | | | | | | | | | | 32203792 Page 14 .
gsh 2 TOP SEC 29 io] S 1 ¢ “Chairman Church. Bsfore you do, would you just explain a 4 exactly what the relationship betwaen CIA and Giancana and g _ a 5 — ~ — . z Mahsu was bscause that is not clear in my mind. 5 : g 4 —_ Would you davelop for the Committss that whole relationshinof Mr. Breckinridge. Robert Mahsu used to work for tbs 6 ; , | , . , FBI and he resigned from the FBI and opened a privats investiga- 7. : , . . tive firm here in Washington and CIA used him from time to 8 . : . ~ . soos time for certain kinds of support activities. Chairman Church. ‘hat kind cf suvport activities? 10 Mr. Breckinridge Oa Ons occasion he obtained a femela At companion 4(i 2 le Chairman Church. “What other kind of support? : 13 | | arly | } Mr. Breckinridgs. In the early days -- and this bacomzs as q aan 3 141 an embarrass Ment. As nearly as I can reconstruct, the peovols 15 who knew him decided to put him on @ retainer in the Office 16 1? fo) : i fw) 8 | S 20 | a ¢ 2 21 a ix § = ae | wv ie 235 : | Fe a 1 z 4 Te ; 8 iI - | | ! 1 HW 50955 Docld: 32203792 Page 15
smn 1 | Thomas t. 9 | Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL fH oS) | 14 | 15 16 Mr. Schwarz. I would like to pick up on the discussion we had. Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz has five minutes more, and we will c.aclude, and I would likc to ask the Committee L6G stay | on for ten more minutes for an executive session. Mr. Schwarz. In the discussion we had on the use of | criminal elements, we have deait with the Castro operation. | | |@arlier this week, there is a discussion about the Lumumba operation, and the Agent Q. J. Win. Now, is it a fact that Q. 3. Win was the agent, or asset, however you would refer to him, who apparently was considered for the effort to assassinate Lumumba, which never tock place; is that right? Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. Mr. Schwarz. Now, is it accurate that Q. J. Win operated 19 | oF G Oo & d 20 fs} € g al a £& = = 2 22 ul a 25 9 9 4 ©; 3 £4 2 $ 25 WW 50955 Bacld: Mr. Breckinridge. The record indicates that. Mr. Schwarz. And is it further so that one of the CIA | | possible, | : ' | | | | ) overseas to f Mr. Colby. Yes, i Meee a a 2203792 Page 16