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CIA HAS NO OBJECTION iu _ DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR EXPLANATORY NOTE RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT DUE TO THE LARGE VOLUME OF MATERIAL TO BE INCLUDED IN THE BRIEFING BOOKS FOR THE KENNEDY SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING ON MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, 1978, THE MATERIAL WILL BE PRESENTED IN TWO SECTIONS. | | THIS BOOK CONTAINS A COMPILATION OF STATEMENTS MADE TO COMMITTEE PERSONNEL BY SEVERAL OF THE WITNESSES » TO BE HEARD ON MONDAY DURING THE COURSE OF INTERVIEWS CONDUCTED EARLIER IN 1978. Silvia Duran (remarried, now Tirado) was the secretary at the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City in 1963. Eusebio Azcue Lopez was a consular official who served at the Cuban Embassy during the period Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly visited the Embassy in Mexico City. Alfredo Mirabal Diaz was a consular officer who also was on duty at the Cuban Embassy during the time in question.
KENNEDY SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS Name Silvia Tirado (Duran) pate .June 6,. 1978 Time Address Place Interview: Cornwell: Would you state your name? Tirado: Silvia Tirado Bazan. Cornwell: And where's your present home address? Tirado: ‘Avenida Universidad 1900 Edificio 12 Departmento 402 Colonia Numero De Terrenos Cornwell: For the record, my name is Gary Cornwell, and ‘with me here is Ed Lopez, Harold Leap and Dan Hardway. We represent the House Select Committee on Assassinations of the Congress of the United States. . Also with us here today representing the Mexican Government is Honorio Escondon, Dr. Alfonso Orozco Contreras. Today is June 6, 1978 and the time is approximately 5:45 in the after- noon. | \ Would you tell us what your date and place of birth is? oe Tirado: 22nd of November, 1937. _ Cornwell: You speak English so if you like my questions Interviewer Signature Typed Signature Gary Cornwell BY? Form #4-
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 2.- Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: -Tirado: translated we'll be happy to, and likewise, if you'd like to answer in English that would be fine, or if you'd rather answer in Spanish, we'll translate it. | I try to speak in English. All right. If you have any question about: the way I phrase something or you don't understand it, simply ask and Mr. Lopez will translate it for you. Your name is 1963 was what? Silvia Tirado de Duran. And your nusband at that time was who? Horacio Duran. | Are you presently employed? Yes. | Where's that? Social Security. Prior to that, what jobs did you hold? A long while, Social Security. I used to write. And any other jobs? _ Have you held any other jobs? No. aaees At.one time you worked for the Cuban Consulate. ya Yes. Is that the only other job you ever held? No.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 3. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Well, let's say back, since about 1960, could you tell us what the history of your employment is? Have you had many jobs? I don't remember exactly , but uh, I used to work for the Olympic Games. I was a eranslator for two months. And uh, another three months IT used to work for the, I don't know, it was an Exhibit of Hispanic Art that was,.I don't know he went all over the World and I helped him to choose the pieces and as translator. I was married in 1960. I separate in '68, July '68 and I start working. During 1963, did you hold any jobs during that year other than your employment at the Cuban Consulate? No. When did you first obtain the job at the Consulate and how did you obtain it. Well, because I was uh, coordinating the Cuban, the Mexican-Cuban Institute, the cultural Institute in '62, I think, and that's where I met some people. Yes. That was a private organization,”is’ that correct? It's not exactly private. I don't know because all the countries have--there is the American there is the Russian Institute, Institute,,there is the French Institute. It's cultural relations between the countries. Was that associated with the Mexican Government?
Silvia Tirado Interview . Page 4.. Tirado: (Translation) of Orozco Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: I don't know exactly, but I think--you know that. (Asks Orozco) 7 , Lae. The objective is to present culturally the dif- ferent embassies and consulates that are here in Mexico. What was your job with that organization? Coordinator. | And in connection with that, did you know any of the employees at the Cuban Consulate? Yes, at the Cultural Attache. And what were the names of those versons? Teresa Proenza and Luis Alberu. And who? Luis Alberu Did you in any other way know any of the other employees at the Consulate? Yes, well I knew Azcue, Eusebio’ Azcue who was a consul, and uh, Maria Carman Olivari -- she's yoo dead. a She, in the summer of 1963, was a secretary. Is “ that correct? will not make any record of what your answer is.) Yes. (If you nod your head, the recorder >
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 5.- Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Would you then explain to us how it was that you obtained the job at the Consulate? Because my friend Maria Carman, she was dead-- she-had an accident, and during the funeral I told Azcue that if he wants me to help him, for some people come from Cuba, just to help him. And of course he says yes. They need some people they can trust, and I'd been working in the Institute. So... How was it that you knew Eusebio Azcue by this time? I don't remember, because he was uh, he was an Architect and he knew a lot of people, friends of ours, I mean my husband and I. Had he lived in Mexico for a long period of time? Yes, yes. And, because of his occupation, he would have known your husband. Is that correct? Yeah, more or less. Horacio Your husband was also an architect of at that time. oe Industrial designer. Yes, sir. Approximately when was it that you first obtained the job? The end of July or August, early August. I don't
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 6. remember exactly. _ Cornwell: And for how long did you continue to work there? Tirado: Three or four months. Cornwell: How long after the assassination of President Kennedy did you work there? Tirado: Only two days. Cornwell: During that period of time what were the hours of operation of the Consulate? Tirado: It was about 9:30 or 10:00 to 2:00 and in the afternoon about 5:00 to 8:00 or something. If we have a lot of work, we stayed longer. Cornwell: The hours were 10:00 to 2:00 and then 5:00 to 8:00. Is that correct? Tirado: _ Yes, that's true. Cornwell: Was the Consulate open for visitors during both of those sets of hours? Tirado: No, it was just_in the morning. . Cornwell: Would you mind sketching for us what the physical layout of the Consulate looked like at that time? \ (pause) You have drawn a rectangular shape. What formed the outside of it? Was it 4 solid wall around the outside? Was the outside of the premises a wall? . Tirado: Yes. Cornwell: All right. And we'll just mark it the way you
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 7. . Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: drew it. In. the lower left-hand corner, there is a small box you drew. What is that? ... The consular. That's the consulate's office? Yes. All right. We'll just put a one in that box, so we'll know that's the consulate's office.. Then, the door was -where, on the corner?...you remember the name of the streets, still today? This is Tacubayo. This is Francisco Marquez. “You want me to write it down? If you remember, yes. Here were the houses. All right. You've labeled three sides of the building with street names and on the fourth side which on the top of the drawing, you said they are houses. Correct? | | Yes. What is in the long triangular shape on the draw- ing above the Consular office? xf It was the commercial office. All right. We'll just put a two in there. That's. And here was the cultural office. And behind that, we'll mark it with a three, was the cultural office. In the center of the drawing
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 8. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Lopez: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tixrado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: is what? The Embassy. . . ee All right. We'll put a four in that. That's the Embassy. And what's the small box in the lower right-hand corner? I don't know how to say it in English. An entryway? Housekeeper. Oh, a housekeeper? Okay. We'll put a five in there. What is all the rest of the space inside the pre- mises? Garden, it was garden. And here was the entrance for the cars. And where you indicated there was an entrance for cars, we'll mark that seven. And all the interior space which was--garden, we'll mark with an eight. Down here there was a movie room. Where, behind the... .? Behind the cultural room? Want to araw that? _ No, because this is the first floor. Oh, it was on the second floor. Yeah. On the first floor was a projection. movies. eee
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 9... Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: . Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Yes. Were . the space which we marked one, two, three and also four, were they all two-story? Yeah. Okay. And above the space marked one, there? The Consulate. So it was ‘on two floors. No, there was another floor over here belongs to the commercial. . .Only on floor was the Consulate. what was but it was the first I see. What would be behind the Consulate on the first: floor? In this area marked two? .I don't remember. You don't remember. So, where we marked two, that was'a second story in that area. Warehouse perhaps. Just a storage area or something like in the lower area marked two. In the space marked number one, which ‘sular's Office, who all occupied that “Well, Consul, the Vice Consul and the Which was you. During the time that we're interested Correct? that, perhaps, was the Con- area? secretary. in.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 10. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: The Consul's name of course was. Eusebio Azcue. The Vice Consul's name was what? ” I don't remember. All right. This was Consulate. All right. You have divided the area that we originally marked number one into two units. The smaller unit indicates where the Consul sat and you sat in a larger reception area in the front? All right. And then, behind the Consul's office, “was there another door? You marked that with a heavier area, and that would be where he could’ walk out into the courtyard. Is that correct? So if you wanted to get into the Consul's office, including the reception area from the courtyard,. you needed to walk through the Consul's Office. Is that accurate? Yes. Now, what kind of a door was at the corner, the lower left-hand corner here, so that £E one were to walk from your office to the street, what kind of door was that? Glass, wood, solid, could you see through it? No, it was solid. I don't remember exactly, but perhaps it was wood. But it was solid.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page ll. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Lopez: Tirado: Lopez: Tirado: Cornwell:. Tirado: Lopez: Tirado: Lopez: Tirado: Lopez: Tirado: Lopez: i / You don't remember being able to see out on the street? 7 No, no. Okay. You enter the Consulate right, in here? Uh huh. | And your office would be right around here. Right? My desk was here. | You have drawn a small box now inside the larger half of the area we originally marked area number one, that's where your desk was? Yes. From where you sat to the entrance into the office where you were, where would the entrance into the office be? Not into the whole consulate, but just | into your office? It was open. Okay, it was obdén. You would enter here. Here was the stairs for the~ second floor, No? -- and here I think there were chairs, or something like that. ,For the people who were waiting. And the desk was here. Okay. Where would the entrance to. your office be? Here, or here. Just to your office, not to the Consul's office. Not the Consulate, but just to your office.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 12. Tirado: Lopez: Tirado: Lopez: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: It would be at the same entrance? Yes. And from where you sat, you couldn't see outside - at all? No. You couldn't see any area in the yard? There was no glas No. I can remember glass, a window, yeah. I can remember windows here, and perhaps here, but I:.don't , remember. There may have been windows for you to see Okay. out in the street? Yeah, but I couldn't see.outside because perhaps: they were very high. While Mr. Lopez was asking you questions, he drew a diagonal line across your office space. Does that represent anything? That line should not have been drawn, is that correct? Yeah. (Laughs.) Now, did you know a Teresa Proenza? Was she employed at the, Consulate or the Embassy? The Embassy. She was the Cultural Attache. She would have worked in the area’ marked number four? Is that correct? | Well, yes. But this was, this construction was uh, afterwards. This was the Embassy and the Consulate construction, and this building was under
' Silvia Tirado Interview Page 13. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: ] Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: _ Cornwell: Tirado: constructed. A building. Constructed? . es Later. It was the old buildings. “Did she work there during the same period of time you did? Yes. At that period where did she work? What area? Here. That's the area we marked number three on the diagram. Did you know a Louisa Calderon? Louisa? Yes, she was in the commercial. And where would that be on the diagram? In the area we marked number two? I think her office was exactly above mine. She was a secretary. And I think it was above. Either above the area we marked one, or the area marked two, but--on the second level... Yes. Do you know the names of any other employees who worked there at the time? No, I don't remember. —_ The man named Mirabal , he was to replace Eusebio Azcue, is that correct? Yes.
Silvia Tirado Interview “Page 14. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: And do you recall approximately when he arrived in Mexico City and began to learn the job so he could take it over from’ Eusebio Azcue? I didn't understand, what did you say vlease? Do you remember approximately when he arrived? And began to learn the work from Azcue. No, some weeks earlier, I don't remember. Would it be accurate to state that your best memory as you told us when we spoke to you informally before we turned the tape recorders on, ' that he was. already there when you met the man you later identified as Oswald? Yes. Now... But he wasn't there when I started working at the Embassy, at the Consulate. Okay. So he must have arrived in late summer or perhaps September, or something like that. Yes. Now, were there telephones in the office? Here. a | You had one at your desk? a This is the desk and here was a little table. I. think it was the telephone. Here was the
‘Silvia Tirado Interview Page 15. Lopez: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: safe box. And here was the Archivo. Archives. So you've drawn two smaller boxes next to your desk. One of them was like a filing cabinet, or for storage of records? Yes. This one. The Files. And the other one was a table. No, here was the safe box. | Oh, a safe. I see, a safe. And there was a phone at the desk? Yes. And did Azcue also have a telephone? . Yes, it was the same but with an extension. Extension. Here was the door. All right. 1963, where were you living? Did you have more than one residence? Yes. Constituyentes 143. And during what part of 1963 was that? Z oe When I moved there? - Before I started working, at the Embassy. But just a few weeks. .. So sometime in the summer of 1963? Did you have ce oe
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 16. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: a telephone at your home? Not at the moment that Oswald came. Because we had just moved. I think we moved in July because we were separated in July, aiso, July '68 and it is when the contract finished. so perhaps. | | I see. Your rent contract ran out in July of ‘68? Yes. About the same time that you and Horatio were di- vorced? Yes. Did you, you say that because of your move, it took some time to get a telephone in your home? | Yes. - And do you remember approximately when it was that you finally got that in? At the assassination we had, a, let me see, we didn't have te lephone--days later. It was sometime after the assassination that you first got a telephone in this residence. Yes. oo And do you by any chance recall the. telephone num- ber at the Consulate? . Oh, so many times I write it down. Perhaps it was 11-28-45, perhaps?
{..  $ilvia Tirado Interview Page i7. Cornwell: Could it have been ll 28 47? _ Tirado: Perhaps. Cornwell: When were you first advised that we wanted to | speak to vou? Tirado: Last week. Cornwell: And since that time, of course, last Wednesday, I believe it was, we spoke to you informally, and told you basically what we were interested in. And learned most of what you could remember about the events we were interested in. Correct? Tirado: Yes. Cornwell: Apart from that, have you had any other opportuni- ties to read anything, or speak to anyone, in order to refresh your memory about the events? - Tirado: Yes. In October of '76 some journalist from the Washington Post came to interview me... Cornwell: We are familiar with the story that appeared in the Washington Post at approximately that time. apart from. that. have you for instance read ‘ the Warren Commission Report? Tirado: Yes. . cae oo Cornwell: When did you last have an occasion’ to read that? Tirado: Uh, when Horacio told me you were coming, I was writing, and I try to remember exactly and I'm starting saying that again, the nightmare came, and so o
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 18. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Lopez: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: and so on, and I wanted to check the dates. So, last week sometime, you had a chance to read it over again? 7 No, not everything just the one little thing. Just the part that dealt with Mexico City and your testimony and that sort of thing. Correct? Yes. | | Let me ask you, when you read that, was there any part of it that seemed to you to be inaccurate? Inaccurate? | Not correct. Not Correct? Yes, but with the Warren Commission, I get angry when I start reading it because they make some afirmacionnes‘{ph). | | Allegations or conclusions. Yes. I don't like it. So I tried to erase it. Okay. What specifically about the report was it that makes you angry? | That I was a -- let me see how to say it--, I don't remember exactly. but uh, I did more to Oswald when he was here than was my job, that it was extra. You mean part of the report that’ suggests that you went beyond your duties at the Consulate, that you exceeded your authority, and you ‘thought that you did not do so. Is that correct?
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 19. Tirado: Correct. ‘cornwell: Is there anything else about the Warren Commis- sion Report's resume of the facts that you felt was inaccurate, that made you mad? Tirado: I cannot answer that because I only read at that time two pages. I didn't read the whole thing. Cornwell: Okay. In addition to looking at that in order to refresh your memory, have you had a chance to speak to any one else? Tirado: No, it was just for checking my writing. Cornwell: What writing was that? | Tirado: Well, I was trying to remember everything that happened in the interrogatory. It was not hard, I mean, what I felt, but uh, what the police had done: to me, so it was my but I'm writing, I'm writing an autobiographia how do you say that, and this is a | chapter. - Cornwell: I see. \ Tirado: (Laughs.) Cornwell: Directing your attention then tovapproximately late September of 1963, as we learned from you the other day, a man came to the Consulate, a man /who you later associated with pictures in the news- paper and a name in the newspaper of the alleged assassin of the President. Ts that correct?
Silvia Tirado Interview ‘Page 20. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Yes. ‘Do you remember how many times he came to the Consulate? Three times. Do you remember the date or dates upon which those three visits occurred? No, I saw the application. you showed me the other day, and in the Warren Commission was September 27, but I didn't remember, of course, until I read it. All right. Do you have a recollection whether it was all on one day or on separate days. The same day. On the very first visit, would you describe to us what the man said and did, and what you said in response? Yes, he, well, he enter and he ask me if I speak English and I say yes, and then he start asking me about requirements to go to Cuba, to get a visa to go to Cuba, and I explain it. What did you explain? ae a Well, that he needed to, he said that a transit visa SO that he needs 4 visa to the country that he was going, from;if it was a Socialist country, the visa was given, as soon
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 21. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: as he gets the other visa, and uh. .. When he first asked about the requirements for a visa, did he tell you that his objective was to go to Cuba or to another country? To the Soviet Union. Did you ever suggest to him that there was any alternative means to acquire a visa other than the in-transit visa requirement which you just described? I don't remember, IT mean I hardly remember. But what I used to say is if you want to go to Cuba, you need or you have to have friends in Cuba, so they may, what do you’ say, take responsibility, if you get the. visa. That was one way, no? And the other way was in-transit. Okay. If I understand then, you don't have a distinct recollection about exactly what you said to. Oswald, but You assumed it was what you said to everyone who came in, which was that you ex- plained both processes, that they either must have friends in Cuba or the in-transit visa could be granted if they got a visa from another country. No, if only they asked me. Because they usually go there and say, "I want to go to Cuma." But if they say I'm just in transit, then I explain }
Silvia Tirado Interview ‘Page 22. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Okay, then. Let me see if I can rephrase it and get what's in your mind as best we can. Is it your best recollection that you did explain both alternatives to Oswald? I don't remember exactly, because I think he im- mediately says that he wants to go to Russia, and he was in transit to go to Cuba. I think he im- mediately says so. Okay. So then your best recollection that you may have only explained the in-transit visa pro- cess. Is that correct? Yes. But, I gather from the way you have answered the question, there is still the possibility that you also discussed with him going to Cuba if he had friends, but you're not sure about that second one, Ts that aecurate? Yes. Now, after this first basic explanation, what if anythin did he say or do? ; Lf of Well, I don't remember exactly. “He show all the paper that he had when he gave me the application when he came back, Okay. Wait a minute. Just the first visit. Is there anything else about the first visit? Or,
-Silvia Tirado Interview Page 23. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: did he leave at that time and if he left, why did he leave? To have photographs of himself. Okay. So your memory is that on the first occa- sion you also explained to him that he needed photo- graphs and he left shortly thereafter to obtain them. Yes, and perhaps, but I'm not very sure, that, uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolu- tion, and when he showed me all the scrap paper that he has. All right. You don't remember if that was on the first or the second occasion. Correct? Yeah, I don't remember. Nevertheless, he did leave to go get photographs, and he did return? Yes. i. Did he return with the photographs? With four photographs. Four of them. Yeah. Were they all the same? To the best of your memory, was he wearing the same kind of clothes that he was wearing that day in the photographs? Yes.
Silvia Tirado Interview ‘Page 24. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: So, from all the circumstances, did it appear to you that he just went somewhere locally and had the pictures made? | | Yeah. I think that I already explained (to) him where he could take the photographs You told him some locations. in town where he ‘could go? Were there some right in the neigh- borhood of the Consulate there? That I don't remember. All right. But at any rate you knew of some place at the time, mentioned one or two places to him? Yes. Correct?. .Did you look at the photos when he brought them back, careful about to be sure that it was the same man who was standing in front of you? Yes. And what did you do at that time? 7 oe I filled out application.” | You personally typed it, and did you type it in duplicate or triplicate or just one copy? Duplicate. And was the second copy a carbon?
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 26. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Carbon? bid you have it twice or did you type one and Make two copies? Only one. And made two? Yes. And what did you do with the photographs? Stapled them. | Stapled them? Yes. On top of the application. Yes. . The application has a place on it for a date, is that correct? Yes. Did you. type in the date that was in fact that day? Yes. Let's just talk hypothetically for a moment. Is there any chance that he was at the Consulate on more than one day? yo No. I read yesterday, an article in the Reader's Digest, and they say he was at the Consulate on He was in Friday, Saturday, and three occasions. Monday. . .That's not true, that's false.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 26. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: All right. Let's try a different hypothetical. If the one in the Reader's Digest is definitely wrong, is it possible that he first came on like a Thursday, and then came back ona Friday? No, because t am positively sure about it. That he came in the same day. Let me ask you then something about just the pro- cedures for the Consulate at the time. Would it have been consistent with your normal procedures for you to have typed the application on his first visit, even though he didn't have a photograph to put on it? No. In other words, before you started the process of typing it, you were sure you had everything you needed to make it complete. Yes. 1 Did he tell you_where he was staying at the time? No. Did you recall any problem with him not knowing any address, where he was staying in Mexico City? , vf No, because he say that hé has no time to wait, he was in a hotel and uh, I didn't ask the address, in Mexico City because I mean didn't care. You didn't have a need to know that?
Silvia Tirado Interview “Page 27. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: ‘Cornwell: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: -Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: No. ; Do you recall any problem coming up where he needed to know it? For any other reason? Me to know his address? No, for him to know. Did he have any problem, did he have any need to know it himself? Do you remember anything along those lines? TIRADO: No. Going back to the second visit, is it your memory that you typed the application in duplicate, you stapled the pictures at the top of each copy, is that correct? Yes. Then what did you do with the application? Well, I used to put it in a file, and uh, I used to keep one copy, another to send, the Original, we used to send to Cuba. And I think I have another file Was he required to sign the application? He signed it, yes. Did he sign one or both of them? I think both, it has to be. , ae Was there any requirement in the Consulate that he do it in any particular person's presence? Anyone have to watch him while he signed it? I don't know, I mean I just don't remember.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 28. Cornwell: - Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: As a hypothetical, did Azcue have to watch peo- ple sign the applications? - No. He was in his office. So you could handle that all by yourself. Yes. | Did he sign it in your presence? Yes. Did anything else occur on the second visit, any other conversation, or any other event? No, but I told you, it's uh, he said that he was a friend of the Cuban Revolution. He show me letters to the Communist Party, the American Com- munist Party, his labor card, and uh, he's work- ing in Russia, I don't remember exactly, but he said on his application, his license number. Marriage license? (Spoke in Spanish.) Se dice serup los recortes del a : periodicc Okay, we had to pause for a second to turn the tapes over. As I recall, you were explaining the kinds of things he brought with him. Yes, it was his labor card, from,Russia, his uh, marriage pact, yes, that he. was married with a Russian, and uh, a clipping that he was with two policemen taking him by his arms, that he was in *™ meeting to support Cuba. And a card saying that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba in New
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 29. Cornwell: Tirado: Lopez: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Orleans. And _ Do you recall what was said or what occurred that caused him to produce all of these documents about his having a Russian wife and his Fair Play For Cuba activity? Just a minute. (Spanish--what means recall?) Recordar. He showed me all of these papers to demonstrate that he was a friend of the revolution. | But did you say anything to him or did anyone else say anything to him that made him feel he needed to produce this kind of documentation. No, I don't think. so. What I said is that when he said he was a member of the Party, of the Commu- nist Party, the American, I said why don't they arrange, the Party, your Party with the Cuban Party, and he said that he didn't have time to do it. Did you ask him why he didn't just have the Commu- nist Party arrange his trip to Cuba? eo y . Yes. Lae The Cuban Communist Party? He just said he didn't have time? Yes. Because there was a manner to do it. I mean, we get, for instance, the visa directly
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 30. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: from Cuba and saying give the visa to this peo- ple that's coming and somebody say oh, yes, you have your visa here. Do you recall anything else happening on the se- cond occasion? Or have you related all that's in your mind on that? No. It was strange. I mean because if you are a Communist and you're coming from a country where the Communist Party is not very well seen, and in Mexico City that the Communist Party was not legal at that moment -- crossing the border with all of his paper, it was not logical. I mean, if you're really Communist, you go with anything, I mean just nothing, just your passport, that's all. And that was some- thing that I didn't like it but. So, you were a little suspicious of the amount of documentation he brought? ; Yeah. Did you say anything to him about that? Perhaps I told him, what are you doing with all a, # of this? And he said to prove I'm a friend of yours Did‘you discuss your suspicions with anyone else? With the Consul. With Azcue?
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 3l. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Yes. Do you remember when that discussion occurred? It was afterwards. Was that after his second visit as you recall? It was during his third visit. During his third visit. All right. Let's back up again for just a moment. What time of day as best as you recall did he come to the Consulate the first time? Perhaps it was eleven o'clock or something like that, ten thirty. | And the second time? About twelve, or eleven, no, about one o'clock. Okay. The first one was roughly late morning, and the second one was early afternoon. Yes. And then, why did he leave the second time? To get his Russian visa. | Would it have been the standard procedure in the Cuban Consulate, to take the application, have him sign it, and have it ready t@ g6 in the file if the request was an in-transit, for an in-transit visa, even though he did not have the visa from the third country. Or from another country? Uh, huh.
Te nena meremanen Silvia Tirado Interview . Page 32. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: All right. Yes, I did send it to Cuba. All right. Okay. So, then you sent him, in effect, to the Russian Embassy. And it was at that point after he left that you spoke to. No. No, you didn't speak to the Consulate at all yet. No. | ‘TIRADO: © Had there been any problem at all yet? No So far, it's like any normal visa application. Yes. Would it have been consistent with the procedures in the Consulate for you to have allowed him to | take one or both of the applications typed up outside the Consulate? I don't remember very well if uh, there were only two copies. I mean, one original and one copy, but uh, it could have happened, but I don't remember To the best of your memory then, the per- Okay. son who made the application was not permitted to have a copy. yo I don't know. I don't remember. Okay. You're not sure. But your tentative me- mory is that would not have occurred.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 33. -Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: No. Is that correct? Yes. — Date Would you have ever allowed a person to take all of the applications outside and attach the photos or sign them themselves? Yes, because you may come, ask for the application and you may keep it. You, on occasion, would allow someone just to have a blank copy. It that correct? Yes. But he was different because he did not speak in Spanish so I have to fill it. I see. If he would have spoken Spanish or pro- fessed to having someone with him who did speak - Spanish, you might have allowed him to take the applications and fill them out. | Perhaps. At least on other occasions, you have done that, with other people. That's something that I really don't remember. There, at least, there was no requirement that you, type it there in the office, as long as it got filled out. —_ | I think I have to type it. I have. to type it because I have to make some observations, always. Down at the bottom? Yes.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 34. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: _Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: And I think that if you fill it in in hand- writing, I have to type it, for, to send it to Cuba. ‘So, at most, you would allow someone to fill it out and bring it in so you could type it? Yes. If that procedure was employed, allowing someone else to fill it out, would you still be required to check the photograph to be sure it was accurate? Yes. Would you still require the person to sign it in your presence? Yes. Just so we can keep our documents straight, let's just mark as Exhibit Number 1 the diagram you drew earlier. And we will mark now on the back a photograph and we'll ask you some questions about it. We'll mark it as Exhibit Number 2. This is a photograph of what would appear to be a visa application. Does it appear to be basically the type of visa application that we have been oe , speaking about? on Yes. The numbers, I think they're mine. The numbers in the upper right-hand corner which are hand-written? I think so.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 35 “Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Those appear to you to be in your handwriting. Yeah, because when I file I write in the number, the following number? . . as Okay. And on the very bottom of the application, where it says “para uso de la mision"™ that means it's filled in by someone associated with the Cuban Government. Is that correct. Or the Consulate? Yes. Who, according to the usual procedure, filled out that portion. Me. The other day when we talked to you informally, you read through the words in that section. Is - that correct? Yes..I remember. And you memory is that you in fact typed that section on this application. Yes. I used to-do this with all‘the applications. And under that, there is a signature. Yes. | Are you able to tell whose signature that is? No, I was thinking it was Mirabal, but no-- I couldn't sign any papers. 7 Okay. So it was definetly not your signature? No. Do you know whether, according to normal procedure,
Sana RN PEE SA tae at ; i A008 gh PIP RE BO me ange apt AREY te AND BE ERTL CSE LR ean Meson PRATT 9 Pa STRAP PRO RNR ee a eh en AURIS Silvia Tirado Interview Page 36. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: any particular person routinely placed his name at that location? No, only the Consulate. People in the Consulate. What would be the purpose of a signature in the lower right-hand corner? I don't know, perhaps to check that it was right as it was written. Did you ever see the Consulate or any other employee routinely sign the applications at the location? I don't remember, but what I used to do was put the originals in one packet and that was with a letter to the Minister, de Relaciones exterister (spanish), How do you. say that? (Lopez - Minister of Foreign Relations), and I used to give to the Consul so he sign the papers and send it to Cuba. Okay. One copy stayed in the Consulate and one was mailed co Cuba, to the Minister of Foreign Relations. Yes. Is it possible then that the signature in the lower right-hand corner is someone’ in Cuba? Perhaps that one that get it. “ That receives it in Cuba. All right. the stamp,
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 37. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Or which appears slightly over the name, the hand- written name, Lee H. Oswald, when did that get placed on the application if you know? Perhaps in the moment that he sign? Was that part of the normal procedure? Did you have a stamp as you recall to do that? Yes. And was that a means of authenticating the sig- nature, that you would stamp on top of it like that? I think so. Because let me see. . This was signed by Cuba, I think, because this was October 10. This was the answer, perhaps. So there's a date you just pointed to, around the middle of the application reading 10-OCT. 1963 — and you are assuming, I take it, that that was the date placed on the document in Cuba? Perhaps but I dan't know. I don't know the date of when we send the applica- tion. it was placed on there when you mailed it? a Yes. ~ Do you know which? I don't know. Could it have been the You don't remember which? date upon which the application was received
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 38. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: in the Consulate here in Mexico City? In return. In return? Back from Cuba? Is that what you mean? | Perhaps. I don't know that. Could it have been the date you received it. from Oswald? No, because it was the same date. Okay. The only date on here of receipt from Oswald was the one near the top, the second line, which reads: 27 Sep. 1963. Yes. So I guess the best we can do is say that you don't have a distinct recollection of how the 10th of October date would have gotten placed on here. Correct? Yeah. | How long normally would it have taken between the receipt of an application and the date that it would have been mailed to Cuba? Well, it depends on the flight. We had, I don't remember in that time, if we were three flights ia from Cuba to Mexico and from Mexico to Cuba and it depends on the work that we have to do, if we have a lot of work we wouldn't have sent it immediately or,--valise diplomatica, How do you say it? Diplomatic pouch.
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 39. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Would there have been some usual amount of time? How much could it vary? The flights were Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I think. And uh, well, we send a bunch if, I think, I don't know, when what day in the week was the 27th? Perhaps if it was Wednesday, we would send next Friday, Or next Monday. OF... I have another photograph of just the upper left- hand corner of the same document, which we'll mark as Exhibit 3 on the back, and ask you if, to the best of your recollection, that is a photo- graph of the man whom you saw on or about the 27th of September? Yes. I don't understand. Amoment ago, did you say that there was a normal time of the week that mailings to Cuba occurred? Would you please repeat the question? Was there a usual day, did the mailings to Cuba usually occur on one given day of the week? Yes, I don't remember exactly, but t think it was on Friday, perhaps, that we make, we send aoplica- tions. Yeah, it was one day to send all the appli- cations. All right. So, if we were to tell you the 27th of
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 40. Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: “Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: September was a Friday, then, the usual routine would have been either for you to have mailed this application on the very day that you received it, or to have to wait until at least the next Friday. Is that correct? Yes. - Now. You have told us that after the second vie} ‘he went apparently to attempt to obtain a visa from the Soveit Embassy. Yes. When do you recall him returning? He came in the afternoon. About what time? Five or six. And that would have been, according to what you told us earlier, not normal visiting hours? Is that correct? Yes. How were you abte to speak to him on this occasion? Because when somebody came-to the doorman and was speaking in another language that wasn't Spanish, he used to call me and say somebody's here that doesn't speak Spanish, someone sent me to you, so he takes the people to the consulate. And the doorman came and got you. Yes. Did you go outside to the main gate? No.