HW 53716 DoclId: 327404703 Page 23 Let us talk as friend to friend; today you are saying, "Just as I remember it"; yesterday you did not say, "Just as I remember it"; yesterday you said, "I know ((it was)) two percent exactly". I said, "Two percent for the highest paid"; there was no one who paid 20 kopecks, This is not true; there never was a single scale. The Komsomol ((member)) always pays the same as the Party, with the exception that in the latest new Komsomol Regulations, a new scale is provided. I will read it to you now. This, again, is since 1958. In 1958, I was not in the Komsomol; I was nowhere. Before this, the scale was not written up in the Komsomol Regulations; they paid the same way they paid in the Party -- the same percentage, regardless of how much ((pay)) they received, the same percentage, but they did not "cut their hair with the same comb" ((i.e., the percentages varied within the scale, although the scales were the same for both Komsomol and Party)). Do you have the pre~1958 ((Komsomol)) Regulations? Do you have the Regulations for 1954? A seale is written out there. No scale was written out there. Without a scale, how much do they take? Only the entrance dues are written up there. What is the difference between entrance and membership dues? Explain it to me. The very same amount; absolutely the same amount for both entrance and
HW 532716 DoclId:327404703 Page 24 | __SBeNET , i in. @ “ membership dues. The entrance ((dues)) -- these are the first dues ((paid)); you pay this when you enter ((the organization)). ((Reads: )) "The financial resources of the Komsomol consist of member- ship dues and other income, A Komsomol member who is at the same time a candidate Party member is excused from payment of the dues...." They pay to the Party. ((Continues to read:)) "...Entrance dues in the amount of two percent are required of each person upon entrance into the VLKSM..." So.... ".,.0f his monthly pay." Two percent from the others also. ((In English)) No, no. Two percent a month... honestly... one minute.... Why entrance dues? As soon as I was accepted in the Komsomol, my first dues -- not for the month, but for entrance -- was two percent, just as I would pay per month. Now I will show you where the scale is written. The scale? Maybe, in the new ((Regulations)), but I am telling you == two percent, two percent. I do not deny that the entrance dues was two percent,
a -~ 22 - @ And the monthly, the monthly.... Not true, not true. And the monthly, two percent. But that is the new, the New Regulations, new currency.... New currency. In the old Regulations, they took ((dues)) the same as for Party members This is new currency; before that, they paid two percent -- the same as. for the entrance dues; please believe me. Why are you declaring something that is untrue. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time) ) Do you want me to find the booklet ((Regulations)) and bring it to your No; the entrance dues were the same as the monthly dues ~- two percent of the pay. What are entrance dues? The first dues you pay upon entering the Komsomol . You pay it once; the usual you pay every month. There were special instruction of the CC VLKSM on the collection: of membership dues, which were sent to all Komsomol organizations, and until the most recent Regulations the scale was not given, except the entrance dues -= two percent. Here, in one ((set of)) Regulations, it is written: "Entrance dues are taken upon entrance into the Komsomol -- two percent of the monthly salary. | From Komsomol members who do not receive a monthly salary, entrance dues are taken in accordance with the instructions of the CC VLKSM." HW 53216. BoclId:32404703 Page 25
HW 53716 @ aa - 23 - 20 kopecks; 20 kopecks, as for military personnel, (1G). Just as the entrance dues, the membership dues aia two percent. I even would not want to insist on ((I should not have to press)) this question, becuase the Secretary of a Komsomol organization should know | this as he knows his five fingers. Of course, he could forget something, but it is nonsense to insist upon "27 years of age" and some other things ((such as this)). You know that even the lowest Komsomol member knows such things. ((Pause)) Let us go back and talk further about the Komsomol . How and where were you actually removed from the Komsomol rolis before you were enrolled in the Komsomol in the MVD? I did not get off the Komsomol rolls anywhere, because I was on leave; I was on the rolls of the Komsomol organization of the MRP, in Sovetsk., What was the Komsomol organization of the MRP in the city of Sovetsk called? I told you that I do not remember exactly, but it should have been called the primary Komsomol organization of such-and-such a military unit. To whom was the organization subordinate? ((Pause)) Perhaps I should give you some leading questions so that you can better remember . | Let us Start with this -~- you came to the Baltic area or Sovetsk; as you said before, when did you get there? 1952, Summer 1952. Summer 1952; what month? DoclId: 327404703 Page 276
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404703 Page 28 © las. @ What does GRU mean? Chief Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of the Navy. Ministry of the Navy. What is Intelligence called in the Fleet? It could not be called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; there is another name. Of the Fourth Navy Fleet; nothing else -- not the ministry, nothing. Well, for example, imagine yourself in Intelligence of the Fifth Navy Fleet, and you are writing a request or letter to the Chief of the Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; what is his title? He has a certain position. Position? Chief of Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, Captain Ist Rank or Captain 2nd Rank such-and-such, and you give his position. Be more precise. This is the most precise way. Officially, if you are corresponding him through open channels, you address him as Chief of Military Unit such-and-such; this, by means of open channels. We are not talking about the military unit. For what does the military unit have a number? Well, this is for secrecy. No; well, for what other reason? ((Pause)) Well, we will return to this; how is the Chief of Intelligenc addressed?
HW 532716 DoclId:327404703 Page 29 © a4. @ The Chief of Intelligence -- that is what he was called. You said that you arrived in August 1952; on orders to whom? To Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet. To whom did you report when you arrived there? I arrived at Baltiysk; I found the military unit -~ that is, Intelligenc: of the Fourth Navy Fleet; I presented my orders. Well, how did you get there? How did you find it? Someone probably told you how to get there. Well, I asked people where the military unit was; it is a closed Zone —= there were patrols. Well, you did not ask on the street -- right? Where else? I was looking for Military Unit such-and-=such., I was going to the Headquarters of the Fleet in Baltiysk. I arrived at Baltiysk; there was the Commandant's Office; there I asked ‘ \ where Military Unit such-and-such was. Just a minute; at the beginning, I asked you how you found the place; you answered that you asked, etc. | Now, where did you arrive? When you arrived in the city, where was the first place you went? I went to the Commandant's Office. First, you went to the Commandant's Office. You know, you ask-such questions which I answer according to how it is
vr ont HW 53716 so ore supposed to be; but, how it was, I do not remember; how it was, how I got there, whom I asked... First of all, I arrived in Kaliningrad; the train goes to Kaliningrad from Moscow. Well, let us dwell on this a little -- then, you arrived from Moscow not in Baltiysk, but.... Kaliningrad; in Kaliningrad, I transferred. Let us begin from the beginning; alright? You arrived in Kaliningrad, not in Baltiysk. For a counter intelligence officer, it is also important where he arrived- either he arrived in Baltiysk or Kaliningrad. There are two different cities; right? Right. yom rire that WrLaz is not tven & RR pre Lae he Balai Si, The fact is thers, Then, practically, you could not have arrived in Baltiysk.., By train? No, no. Raed You arrived in Kaliningrad? ((In English)) Alright. Oh, you see how you judge. Well, how else can I? I arrived at the city of my designation, the city of Baltiysk, on orders to Intelligence of the Fourth Fleet. And how did I travel there -~ this.... DoclIda: 327404703 Page 30
HW 53716 © -2- @ Listen, dear fellow, I do not want to ask you a second question; I can tell you == you could not have arrived in Baltiysk, period. | Tell me why. Because the train does not go there, Then why do you have to wait until I tell you that you did not arrive in Baltiysk, but in Kaliningrad? I arrived at Baltiysk; Kaliningrad is a transfer point, Very well, I have arrived in the Far East... just a minute... in the Far East, I made a stop at Khabarovsk, then at Komsomolsk-na-~Amur, then I made another stop in Pivan'; finally, via Sikhote-Alin', we get to Pyatisotka. One minute... about Sikhote-Alin' -~- we will return to this question. | é 4 ‘ eee Well, alright; you ask me questions, and I am answering you; do you want to hear my answers (XG) you are knocking me down. I am not knocking you down at all. Is it logical or not to ask a man, if the train does not arrive at Baltiysk, but arrives at Kaliningrad, Very well; you arrived in Kaliningrad. How did you get to Baltiysk? . Did you go on foot or by car? Well, I got there by car by hitch-hiking. I asked how to get to Baltiysk, how to get to Baltiysk. Alright, you arrived. I do not know who I asked, but somewhere I asked how I could get to the headquarters in Baltiysk. Well, there you are -- you answered me; you asked someone in the station. DoclId: 327404703 Page 31
HW 532716 _—SECRET -~ 52 - were not doing anything. . But the tasks were changed, absolutely; there was only one task ~~ the preparation of agent-manned observation posts against the event of war; that is all; there was nothing more; there was no agent work at all. Well, if you are talking about work, I think we will return to it ina little while. If we are to believe what you said before, then you did not even say anything about what you did in Intelligence there, that you were occupied with entirely different matters there, Well, and it was because I was occupied with this, that I decided to get out of the GRU. Let us take a little break. May I smoke’? Well, think it over a little... after our rather loud talk of today. I only ask that you forgive me; maybe I... you must understand me as man to man... maybe sometimes I get aroused, perhaps raise the tone of my voice; well, please, do not pay any attention to it.... As I told you -- I am not angry at all. ...Because this does not relate to you personally... ((it is my)) nerves, or the devil knows what. I fully understand that. Maybe sometimes I ask "interesting" questions and I try to get the answers. It is not my task to make you nervous. DoclId:32404703 Page 55