4 2 < “. C] Q 3 < z 410 Fiest Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 fe tr ‘ ee Beye held up ‘the coup “long enough to escort Admiral Felt to ‘the: airport and put hin on the: plane to" say ‘goodbye. ‘They then repaired to the general. ‘staff headquarters and launched. the coup. There was plenty of ‘American contact in this sense. Senator Hart of Michigan. : I am backing ‘uP -perhaps a matter of months trying to understand. We took certain actions, P.b. 480, for example, in-- ‘tending that it persuade President Diem to fly right? Did not the Ambassador go in and explain to him that that was the purpose for this suspension, or was it just to. be understood hy osnosis?. | | Mr. Colby. There wan't very much direct contact of that sort, ‘I don' t think. te was clear. fron the public position be- cause President Kennedy in a press conference, incidentally, ‘referred to the departure of certain personalities, which was clearly a reference to-Ngo Dinh Nhu. I have forgotten the exact phrasing of it. But that was clear reference to the fact we felt it necessary and that is really what the issue all hung up on because we had identified Ngu as such a nepharious in- fluence that if. we ‘could: just get ‘him out of the country, ‘and I mean out of the country, no assassination or anything like that, out of the country, that then we could manage the operation, and that was the official position. I thought it was wrong but at one point I said fine, why don! t we go over and try. ‘to get him to leave in order .
‘senator. suadieston: Peer ‘that ‘ever’ made, aia al you ask him’ to leave? mr. colby. . “No, I didn’ te Senator Tower. Any further questions? . Senator: mMathias?. . a a . senator Mathias. “Thank you, Mr. ‘Chairman. I would Like to go back to a statement that Mr. Colby made sometime ago in ‘which he referred to many“meetings in the basement of the White House. : a ‘ As I recall, McGeorge Bundy and Walt Rostow had two small offices down on the ground floor level and is that the area that you are referring to? WARD & PAUL Mr. Colby. Well, not their actual office but there. is a little conference room there called the situation room where this kind of meeting. takes place and still does. senator Mathias. Right. And who would - typically be involved -in those conferences? 19 Mr. Colby. Oh, at that time Mr. Bundy, Mr. Ball, a | 20 certainly Mr. Forrestal, Mr. Hillsman, Mr. McCone, myself, — . \ Mr. McNamara, Gilpatric, General Taylor, others perhaps or not depending on the situation at that time. | : \ In other words, the senior ‘levels of the different “departments involved, and generally,1 think,generally not 410 First Street, 5.F., Wasmington, O.C. 20003 -the Attorney General. If we met with the President we met in
2. 3 < e é a « < z 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 meetings? “Mrs Colby. Not dow Pes t ae There would be quite a‘ fe ‘those where the President would 3 be up there and that would ; the Cabinet Room, but not every day except sometimes it was every day, when it got particularly hot and heavy. . Senator Mathias, ' Now, when you say every day, does that mean a downstairs meeting or upstairs meeting? Mr. Colby. Downstairs meetings. every day. Senator Mathias. rt was every day? Mr, Colby. Almost, more or less. And upstairs meetings. ‘Sometimes every day and y times not. Senator Mathias. And the Attorney General was generally present at. the upstairs meetings? Mr. Colby. .Yes, sir. Senator Mathias. But not at the downstairs? Mr. Colby. Not at the downstairs, as I remember. I dealing with an impression here. Senator Mathias. TI understand. And I. think what ‘are trying: to get at is a flavor of the direction. | Mr. Colby. The Chairman of the downstairs one would be
2 > < e 6 Qa « < z 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 mass oe Sse RAI ed seeps or dike ae “Chal fithe ups airsone ‘obviously. Senator Mathias.» Did you mention Mr.- Rostow as present?: \ Mr. Colby. I think of him as Mr. Bundy's replacement, really, and I'am not: sure whether he was there at that time or. not. Mr. Harriman would come sometimes, as I recall. Senator Mathias. How about Vice President Johnson, did he ever attend any of those? Mr. Colby. He would attend ‘the upstairs ones. Senator Mathias. le did attend the upstairs ones. ‘Mr. Colby. A nuriber of them. ‘Senator Mathias. pid he take an active part? ‘Mr. Colby. No, he aid not particularly. Certainly he did not take what amounted to at that time in that. community a public position. what advice he may have given the President alone I don't know. I don't recall his being heavily involved. | "Senator Mathias. Ambassador Nolting has said on various occasions that vice President Johnson was the principal spokes~ man in that circle for decreasing rather than increasing | our activities in Vietnam. Did you ever get that feeling in any way at these meet-— | ‘ings? Mr. Colby. I know that later President. JOhnson felt
4 > < LY « a «- < x 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 | paresculerty fon the degree of our involve-. A} niet te ? i sagainst th Ba Ay “geservds ‘but interpreted, as’a. ice: president doesn' t. take any ey kind of: ‘a public ‘argunent position ‘with. the President, | it really is not very. approptiate | in that kind of situation and whatever private position he may “have had he would have handled ‘outside of the gaze of, the lower. level bureaucrats such as myself. ‘Senator Mathias; : Ambassador Nolting was very much _opposed to any action, Mr Colby. “Ambassador Nolting, of course, was replaced in August. He was in Greece when the raid on the pagotas took place. _ Ne was out of contact and was not aware of that. When he did return to Washington a week or two later he took a very active role “opposing actions against President Diem to. the extent he was invited to participate. And his 4 advice was not accepted. Senator Mathias. His pleas fell on deaf ears as far as this was concerned?.