AGENCY RECORD NUMBER RECORD SERIES AGENCY FILE NUMBER ORIGINATOR : FROM TO TITLE DATE PAGES \ SUBJECTS DOCUMENT TYPE CLASSIFICATION RESTRICTIONS CURRENT STATUS DATE OF LAST REVIEW OPENING CRITERIA COMMENTS HW 532716 DBocld: 32404703 Date: 02/12/01 Page: 1 JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM AGENCY INFORMATION Peleased under the John . Eennedy CIA WSsassination Records see 0037 ollection Aet of 1992 (44 USC 2107 Nate). ases#: NW 53216 Date: He—-14-2017 NOSENKO RECORDS DOCUMENT INFORMATION CIA TRANSCRIPT:REEL #5. NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN, 29/30 JULY 1965. 07/29/65 78 NOSENKO DERYABIN NBR PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT SECRET POSTPONED IN FULL 01/31/01 JFK-M-24:F38 2001.01.31.14:50:14:570084: NOSENKO NOT BELIEVED RELEVANT (NBR). ATTACHED IS HSCA STAFF REVIEW FORM DATED 9 MAY 1978. SEE F34 FOR KEY TO TRANSCRIPT. Page 1
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HW 532716 —SECRET ; Reel #5 29 July 1965 TRANSLATION ((If)) you had it. And when we come to your education we will add it to what I have said ((about parents, background, etc.)) -= your education in high school, the Navy school, and the Institute of International Relations. I do not know what you want to say. I want to say that ((since)) you have found the ((in English)) excuse of "taking into account my higher education," we will return to this question; I just want to remind you so that you will not forget. I will put this all together.... (7Please? or ?too bad?) ...In time.... Of course, of course. YI would like you to find something better.... I cannot find anything better, because I did not decide the question about myself; I do not know how the question was decided.... I am asking you, from the point of view of a counterintelligence officer, how do you (¥evaluate?) ((this))? And I do not intend to resolve the question .of my life on ((to conform with)) one date. DocId:327404703 Page 4
HW 53216 DocId:32404703 Page 5 _ Place yourself in the place of SHUBNYAKOV or FEDOTOV, having in mind the position of ((some)) IVANOV as if it were yours -= what would be your decision? I do not know; if I were in his place, then it would be another thing (XG). Because you told us at one time that you were a worthy counter- intelligence officer. But now you modestly say that you were such a simple, little.... In 1953, in 1954.... ..-A little case officer. Now, why are you turning things around? That is not right. In 1953, 1954, 1955 and 1956, I really was nothing; I was only a case officer. If you are talking about 1954, you are right. Yes, Right; what do you want me to tell you -- that in 1954 they valued me and liked me and respected me? Oh, do you remember, in the beginning, in the beginning, when you had just established contact with us, how ((you said)) you had worked against the journalists, against military attaches, and that you had recruited dozens of Americans, and so forth. Not at all, not at all; you do not have to... you do not have to paint things that way.... ((XG;' A and B speak at the same time) )
HW 53716 A. DoclId: 327404703 Page 6  ) : a I can simply remind you of that which you said earlier; nothing more. You do not have to paint things that way. Anyway let us think about where the bones lie hidden. ((Long pause)) I do not know, I do not know. What kind of bones? Where? I do not know. ((Long pause)) I do not know. What kind of bones? I do not know anything. I never said that I was an ideal and outstanding worker. I worked as I could and as I had to. I never said that I had recruited dozens. If I participated, I participated. I have told how they treated me. As if you were the best man, they sent you to Geneva... as the best counterintelligence officer. How “as the best''? In 1962, it was necessary for them to send not a senior case officer, nor a case officer, but someone higher. Well, that you were bigger does not fit ~- I do not see it. You understand ~~ if you somewhere somewhat.... ((Interrupts)) You know, this will not kill me, because I already have heard this 482 ((times)) -- I have heard that I was not a good employee that I am nothing. I have heard this more than once; please continue in the same spirit. I do not think that anyone told you that you are nothing.
HW 53716 Well, they did not say "nothing" -- that is right; it would be rude.... It is right that I have exaggerted; absolutely right. How many times has it been said, "Well, what kind ofa worker were you? What kind?" We still do not have the KGB here == we have not come to that yet. Right, right; yes -—— you have not come to that but... somewhat... something I did not expect from American intelligence or counterintelli~ gence, What, for example? Let us not talk about it -- this is a stage that already has been passed; it is behind. Well, I am interested in knowing. You know everything very well. You know every letter, every stage; you know everything If I knew everything, then we would not have to be talking. No, I say, what was, was; you know. I do not know what you have in mind; I do not think that we did anything unusual; I do not think there was anything out of the ordinary; it was just everyday life. That is not life; it was a sad existence. Well, let us see, let us talk about it -- whose fault is it? Well, how is it my fault? Tell me why it is my fault; tell me why I am doing time, tell me why DoclId: 327404703 Page 7?
HW 532716 I am doing time. You tell me, "We do not believe you" ((but)) this is not a reason for - aman to do time, Do not look for the entire fault in yourself; I am not blaming only you.. No, I understand -— that over there ((the KGB)).... Yes, "over there".... ... Excuse me, they are crapping on me. ...ves, “over there", "over there", I understand that, over there, they... What =~ "over there''? Well... that they == through the agent network and through trusted persons, etc, -= they are "giving it to'me. I know how it is done, how a man can be turned into nothing, into nothing! I know this. Whether you want it or not, there is something coming from over there; I know about this very well. We will talk about what is coming ((from over there)) and what is not coming. Of course, you are interested in knowing what is coming; but I would like to know what you think is going on there. What do I think’? What do I think? I think, I know, that, of course, a decision already has been made about me, and they have sentenced me to death; and some kind of case has been opened against me, just as a case was opened against GOLITSYN, 4 DocId: 32404703 Page &
HW 532716 ® PL -~-6- as I heard. Measures are taken and the relatives are put under control. But why control them? Well, perhaps a letter might go through. Well, anyway ((it is said that)) the KGB has changed; they are so good and likeable.... Who told you that. That is what they write. "They write".... They simply are so kind that they are kissing the Soviet people's asses. Oh, yes. Well, if they are not so good, in your opinion, then.... ((3G; A and B speak at the same time)) ...What is holding you back from opening your heart and forgetting your past? They ((the KGB)) are entirely to blame, etc.;. why do you not make up your mind to say, "Screw them", and begin from the very beginning and tell the truth. | I am telling you only the truth; if there were some small.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) Well, I have been talking with you for 3 days, and I do not see any DocId:32404703 Page 93
HW 53716 DoclId: 32404703 Page 10 __secnr ® 4 @ confirmation of what you call the truth. “28m telling you only the truth, absolutely. ((XG; A and B speak ‘at the same time) ) Well, you are forgetting that we have just finished talking for the last hour about the anketa, and you could not answer the simplest things. I am telling you what I remember. One cannot believe that you worked there; I to not know what keeps you from talking sense, as they say. . Well, why do you say that? ((Pause)) Well, one more question -= what do you know about the Personnel record sheet (lichnyy listok po uchetu kadrov). What Personnel record sheet? What is the Personnel record sheet? What kind of document is it? I do not know; I do not know the Personnel record sheet, I do not know. Well, on every Party member and every Komsomol member working in the organs of the MVD or in government work, or even a non-Party member having some higher education or qualifications and on whom there is a personnel file in the KGB or the Council of Ministers or the CC CPSU and so forth... the CPSU Central Committee issues this Personnel record sheet; it is some sort of anketa, I do not know it. It is completed by everyone.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404703 Page i1 ® -.. @ I never completed it; I do not know what it is; I do not know, ~ It is not very important to the MVD, but -= in accordance with a CC CPSU decision -- every employee fills it out. I do not know, I do not know It represents a true picture of the educated employees, What goes into it? There is the usual information in it, but I do not want to explain what there is. I do not know, I do not know. It begins with the questions -= surname, first name, patronymic; date and place of birth; social background; duration of Party membership; Party identification card number. This sheet is, as they say, a Party-Komsomol record; it is completed by each employee; it is included in the Personnel file before the | anketa. I absolutely do not remember this sheet or its completion, absolutely. This, again, is one of the proofs that forces the conclusion that.... Honest, I absolutely do not remember this sheet or its completion inithe Personal files into which I looked. I looked into Personnel files. Because in 1962, 1963, we hired for the Third Section, restaurants and hotels, a large number of former KGB employees as non=staffers; only former employees. And I do not remember this ((sheet)).
HW 53716 You probably saw their Bersonnel files, because =~- when a man is released -—= his file is sent to the Archives; then anyone can take the file if he wants to make use of this employee. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) I absolutely do not remember this sheet. How do you explain that you do not remember your Party card number? I do not remember it, I do not remember. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) Look -~= hear me out, please; you asked me why I do not remember it -- I will tell you: you pay your dues; you go to a meeting and you know you have to show your card, so you take it with you; I did not have to give the number; I take it along; you keep it in the safe.... I am not asking because anyone wants to know this number; but there is a procedure in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union -- every member of the Party is obliged to know the number of his Party card. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time) ) It is not written ((in the Regulations)), but there is a procedure and the Party Secretary always asks. I do not want to exaggerate, but I simply want to say that the Secretary always asks when a man pays his dues ~~ particularly new members, if they remember the number of their Party card, Well, they could ask; absolutely right. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) It is, as they say, in the blood stream of every Party member ~-- SEGRE i DoclId: 327404703 Page 12
HW 532716 DoclId:32404703 Page 15 SHECRET @ -...@ except, of course, some stupid person who does not have any memory at all; he does not remember -=- but all the rest remember. ((In English)) Thank you very much. Well, I did not have ((you)) in mind.... No, no, no, I understand, I understand. But it is logical to remember. I was a member of the Party but long ago, And do you remember the number? I remember the number quite well; it has stayed in my memory, and I still remember it. I do not recall my Komsomol card number. I do not know whether I knew it well; probably I did. But I remember my Party card number =-- tand that was more than 20 years ago. Look -- just a minute; there is another number -- every employee has a serial number (lichnyy nomer); it is a metal plate. You keep it in the safe. This number is indicated in the identification card which you carry with you every day, day and night. I do not remember it, but I know it had four digits: "Ye0O0O", and then the number. Of course, no one ever asked you to remember the number of your identification card. No, this is not the identification card number; this is a serial number. What kind of a serial number? For what purpose is it?
HW 53716 Sucre - ll = It is for use in case of war,if you should die. When did they introduce this serial number? I do not remember; I do not remember. Well, you see, you contradict yourself -~ on one hand, you try to prove that you were there, that you worked, but you cannot answer the simplest question about the number, and you do not know it. Well, very well; let us take this line -~ how many Party cards have you had altogether? A candidate membership card in 1956; when I was accepted in 1957, a membership card; that is all. When was the Party. card exchange? That was before I was accepted, in 1955 or 1954. At that time, did you receive a new Party card? Well, this was before my time. In 1956, I received a candidate membership card and in 1957, a member- ship card; it was before my acceptance into the Party, in 1955 or 1954. Were there any other circumstances under which you exchanged....? The card? - No. Where did you leave your card when you left? In the safe... no, no; I lied -—- I left it with the Secretary of the Party organization. What == does every one have to turn them in when going abroad? DoclId: 327404703 Page 14
SECRET 0 © - 12 - B. Not only when going abroad, You see, I went abroad on TDY; I knew that I would be gone a month or two; the ruls was to give it to the Secretary, and I left it with the Secretary. I entrust the receipt of pay for February and March to an employee -- SHINGAREV -- to take out the dues, and pay the loan cashier; the rest of it -= to my wife. And the Party card goes to the Secretary. If you go on a trip, and you know that you will be gone for 15 days and you will be paid in the meantime, you leave the money and also the Party card with the Secretary. A. Well, alright (XG). We will stop for today; we will continue our talk another time. I want to say once more -- think about what we have been discussing. B. (XG) End of 29 July 1965 Session. HW 532716 DBocld:32404703 Page 15
SECRET eo 3. @ 30 July 1965 Session A. Well, what is new today? B. The old day has passed; a new day -—- the 483rd -- has begun. A. 483rd? B. 483rd. May I have a cigarette‘ 2 A. You still have not forgotten how to count the days? B. I coufit on my fingers; besides that, I take threads from my blanket and make numbers. | For instance, the first of July; the next day is the second of July, From the preceding number, I make a new number every day; that is how I count. A. What other means of counting do you have? You can lose yourself that way. B. No; there is a whole number of ways, I save every day, every month. | The guard detail changes every Friday -—- that is exactly a week; new guards come. I am telling you -= I do not count: one, two, etc. When: I get to 365, it makes a year, and I begin again. When I get to 400 -~ it was on the 8th of May ~- and I began again, because on the 8th of May it was exactly 400 days. And, besides that, there are these numbers that I make from the threads. A. But do you not make any other marks? B. No; well, I did one time -- I put scratches on the door: the Ist of a SECRET HW 532716 DBocld: 32404703 Page 16
HW 532716 —— SECRET _ ~ 14 . December, etc..., 1/65 equals 272 days; and then, there was another date: 3/4/65 -=— it equals 65 days. That is how. Well, perhaps we should return to our discussion about the Komsomol, - I do not think that we have covered everything; we did not agree with each other everywhere. | Do you still insist that you were Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Division? Tell me, as a friend to friend, where you were. What would I get out of it ((to tell lies))? Neither a minus, nor a plus. I would not get anything out of it. No, me, not you -- I am talking about myself, about my biography, my activities; this would give me neither a plus, nor a minus. You know, we have spoken about the Komsomol -- we have spoken about this matter twice; and I want to talk about this subject for the last ‘time. The Komsomol does not operate the way you described it. If a person were Secretary of a Komsomol organization, he would know more than the rank-and-file Komsomol member; ((but)) I am not asking to answer as a Secretary of a ((Komsomol)) Committee. I do not remember the name of the Committee Secretary. Well, let us say, the Secretary of a Komsomol organization in the most important directorate in the MVD -- in counterintelligence, or the Second Directorate, as you want to call it -- if he were the Secretary, as you say, for approximately a year, he would have had some kind of contact with the Secretary of the ((Komsomol)) Committee of the MVD, Simply because of his Komsomol work. Docld:32404703 Page 17
HW 53716 B, I tell you contact is maintained with the Second Directorate by KOZMIN and SOKOLOV -- those two men. During the time you were Secretary of the’ Komsomol organization, how many Komsomol conferences were held in the MVD? There probably were at least one during the year, There was, there was, there was... because I.... You probably selected delegates from your Komsomol organization, and you yourself as Secretary should have attended it. Of course, of course. Well, tell me about this conference; you probably saw the Secretary and gave him documents on those whom you had selected to be delegates to this conference, and so forth; a great deal of preparatory work had to be carried out, I do not remember; I do not even remember what was discussed at the conferences; of course, there were conferences or meetings of the aktiv,: something.... Well, I am not asking what was discussed; I am just asking about the procedure, You say you do not remember the name of the Secretary of the MVD Komsomol Committee; in my opinion, you should know; if you were the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Direetorate you had to know. I do not know; why do not I know? Because, after all, he was not a star in the sky. I simply fulfilled social obligation; I just had to.... No one said that he was a star in the sky, but you were the Secretary, and you had to know him. SECRET DoclId: 32404703 Page 15
HW 53216 DoclId: 327404703 Page 19 "BECRET oe “i. @ I do not remember his name; I do not remember. For this reason alone, it is difficult for me to believe that you were a Secretary. Very well, I will help you; we will begin with this -- what important event == which you could in no way forget or overlook == took place in the Komsomol in 1953-1954 at the time you. were Secretary? I do not remember. I ask you again; if jyou were the Secretary, you must remember this great event. I do not remember it. Well, I will remind you about this great event -=- it was just at the time when you were Secretary , and it was quite important -- it was the Moscow City Komsomol Conference in February 1954, when delegates were elected from all Komsomol organizations, including the MVD or the KGB, whatever you want to call it; and you, of course, as a Secretary had to take an active part in it -=- to be at the aktiv meetings of the MVD Komsomol, to select candidates, and perhaps even to make a speech. Even if you did not deliver a speech at least you had to be there and to vote, etc. I do not remember. This was your last Komsomol position while you were working, in the MVD or anywhere else, and I think you should remember it. Well, as you told me last time, a Komsomol member can be any person of what age’ I will tell you right now -- from the age of 14 they can be taken into the Komsomol, And to the age of...
HW 532716 ~ 17 - To the age of 27. Are you sure of this? Yes. Well, you can imagine that a Secretary must know. Until the age of 27. 27? ((Pause)) I will read you a paragraph from the Komsomol Regulations for 1949, Why 19497 This was in 1953-1954.... 1949. het Just before this, I asked you wart important event took place in March 1954. I do not remember this. There was a Komsomol Congress.... There were such... it was not the only one. ...At, which new regulations were adopted. It was not the only one, but it was the next one after 1949, the next one. From 1949 until this Congress, they lived according to these regulations but from 1954 they began to live differently. None of the regulations before 1949, after 1949, or after 1954. said anything about "up to 27 years of age". From Komsomol'skaya Pravda, 7 April 1949: "Anyone from the age of 14 to 26 can be a member of the VLKSM...." | Another Congress took place, 30 March 1954: . "Anyone from the age of 14 DoclId:327404703 Page 70
HW 532716 ET o _.. @ to 26 can be a member of the VLKSM...." -- this was in 1954. Further, here are other Regulations, published in Moscow in 1958: "Anyone from the age of 15 to 28 can be a member of the VLKSM...." == this was when they changed the Regulations. Never in the history of the Komsomol, beginning in 1919, have the Regulations anywhere said anything about "up to 27 years of age"; it always was "up to 26" and then they changed it to "up to 28", cd) (2G) I left for reason of age in 1956. ( I do not want to argue. You could have left for reason of age when you were 27 years old; I do not at all deny this -— I only am reminding you that yesterday you insisted that the Regulations say "up to 27, and that is all" I did not argue with you then; I simply told you that it never was "up to 27"; it was "up to 26", And now... I do not know what reason you had, etc.; I have only one question == did they make some sort of exception for you? They did not_make—any~kind of exception for me. - ne renee gee een sree NE ee ree ~ ee Then what is the matter? A secretary has. to know —=— right? What do you think -- the Secretary of the Komsomol Organization of. the Second Chief Directorate; all of Soviet counterintelligence was working there, and he does not know that, at the time when he was Secretary, a Komsomol Congress took place, and new Regulations were adopted? I do not remember. It was a big event; a Congress does not take place every year. By the way, how often are Komsomol Congresses held? I do not remember. Well, just between us, do you think there is basis for me to believe DoclId:32404703 Page 71
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404703 Page 22? x g that you were a Secretary? I cannot tell you anything more about this; I simply do not remember. "IT do not remember" -- this is not the answer of a counter intelligence officer; one can answer "I do not remember" to all questions. A counterintelligence officer is not God. He is just like any other man -- IVANOV, PETROV, SIDOROV ~= working in a shop or somewhere else; the only difference is that he is working in counterintelligence, and the other, in a shop. You know, if you were a Secretary of the Komsomol organization of a crutch factory, I would not ask you such questions, because the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of a crutch factory could forget but an employee of counterintelligence, of the Second Chief Directorate, could not forget this, not because he was Secretary or a Komsomol member, but because this is the daily work of a counterintelligence officer: to know all of the Regulations, because he is working with people; he recruits, he develops, he arrests, etc.; he has business with the Komsomol and with the Party every day. Right. Well, he comes in contact with the Regulations and with other documents and instructions -~= this is why I told you, "This is not the answer of a counterintelligence officer"; he should know more than a simple kolkhoz worker or a member of a feather shop. Ah, ah.... The same thing goes for the matter of membership dues. On what basis did you say, "Two percent, and that is all'? Just as I remember it. I am telling you and answering you just as I remember.
HW 53716 -~ 24 - About August. About August. Yes. And to what kind of work were you assigned right away? I was assigned as a senior translator-interpreter of the MRP. Senior translator-interpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet. Intelligence of the Four th Navy Fleet. And what precisely was the Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet called? It was called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet. It could not have been called that. Please call things by their own names. What was it called? {It could not have been called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; It was not called that. It could have been called that among the intelligence officers there. No, well, military unit, official, the military unit. Well, wht is the official name? Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; the Chief of Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; the Chief of Intelligence of the Seventh Navy Fleet. What was the Directorate in Moscow called? GRU VMF. DocId:32404703 Page 27
HW 532716 telling you I had Primorsk in mind.. A. Why did you say?... B. I do not know, because I do not remember; I remember it as I said. A. You do not remember which military uni ‘iB. I do not remember. A. You yourself told me that you made an B. Well, why? Because I immediately showed you that Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray" -= the city A. There are many cities on the map, and I told you that, in the Soviet Union, named Primorsk. ((In English)) You see, there is a Primorsk on the Baltic, one M¥rmansk , one on the Black Sea, one on Sea, one on the Pacific Ocean... there ty the sea. B. In 1952, there was one Headquarters of in one city, in Baltiysk; and the MRP, Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, Primorsk.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) A. You are smart enough to make up a prem one can take this away from you. t? error; you do not.... place; I had in mind "City of of Primorsk. you can point out a lot of things. there are more than 70 places ) near Arkhangelsk, one near the Kzov Sea, one on the Caspian are Primorsks everywhere near the Fourth Navy Fleet, which was which was subordinate to also was only one and was in ise and imagine how it was -= no ((Pause)) Well, give me one example when you received a letter, let us say, in Primorsk, and so forth -- a le SeCREF DoclId:327404703 Page 41 tter from your parents or your