AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE: DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : DOCUMENT TYPE : CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : JFK Assassination System Date: Identification Form Agency Information HSCA 180-10110-10017 SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY 014727 Document Information HSCA [Restricted] 05/16/1978 78 CIA, FILES CIA, METHODOLOGY [Restricted] [Restricted] OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO MEXICO TRANSCRIPT Secret 1B Redact 04/05/2017 Includes index and two duplicates.Box 5. 4/16/201
CASCIONE: amt PAE . 1-1 EXECUTIVE SESSION ~~ TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978: : 3 | | . 4! < t H “ | z Si U.S. House of Representatives, | a) 2 5 Subcommittee on the Assassina- = tion of John F. Kennedy of ¢ 7! the Select Committee on ~ | Assassinations, -s 3 a Washington, D.C. _ The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:40 p.m. D.C . > = 10 = in room 3370, House Annex No. 2, 2nd and D Streets, S.W. = oN a Fa Present: Michael Goldsmith and Dan Hardway. = i Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Reporter, would you please swear | p in the witness? S The Reporter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony = is i! ° ; . : a | which you are about to give will be the truth, the whole = | truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? > = 16d ; = ' : a Mr. Shaw. I do. | i - | ; at i. “ee. : ‘ | 22 } th : SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 2 ALDERSON REFORTING COMPANY,
2 3 3 wo a 5 “ i “ a 6 “~~ ~ . | 7 — = a = N cs F a = 0 co - 3 gs a os =. 14 4 so = e 412 = > 2 is : = e = ...h3 = 13 = w 17 e = 13 - mn = 19 ~ e 34 bak Fe 4 ra 2S on az “4 i aN, 23 2 rary Bt X ¥ "a ge panes ae th TESTIMONY OF ROBERT T. SHAW Mr. Goldsmith. Would you state your name and address for the record? Mx. Shaw. Robert T. Shaw,{ ———~—CSCéd*zSC Fan. ir fax, Virginia, 22031. Mr. Goldsmith. What is your present occupation, Mr. Shaw? Mr. Shaw. Lam[__—Cédwith the Department of State, but my actual-occupation is Inspector, Office of the Inspector General, Central Intelligence Agency. Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I handed you earlier a copy of a letter from the Acting Director of the Central Intelli- gence, Mr. Carlucci, to the Chairman of this Committed. It corresponds to JFK Exhibit No. 94 in the. Committee's hearing record. | Have you had a chance to read that letter? Mr. Shaw. I readiit justtnow. Mr. Goldsmith. Do.you: understand it? Mr. Shaw. I understand Lt. Mr. Goldsmith. I also would like to hand you the Committee's ewlen and resolutions and ask you at this time to read Rule No. 4 to yourself. (pauses Mr. Shaw. I read it over. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that? SECRET ALDESSON REPORTING comPany RW 350955 DocId:32277214 Page 3
we SEGH B bd. 1-3 Mr. Shaw. I understand it. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that you have a right to counsel? Mr. Shaw. Yes. fee eee et eee he ee -—@- ne a in nn nn ee er ee : § Mr. Goldsmith. Do you waive that right to counsel? 4 Mr. Shaw. I do not need counsel. 2. 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Do youvunderstand that, under. the : 2 | Committee rules, that you have a right to receive a copy of , 5 i the statement: you: are going to give us at this deposition? : 19 : Mr. Shaw. I should hope so, to check it for accuracy. : 1H Mr. Goldsmith. However, by virtue of the arrangement 3 12 that the Committee has worked out with the Central Intelligence @ 2 13 Agency, we have been asked to request of Agency employees that 2 1s | they waive their right to receive 4. sony of the deposition : is! for their own retention. By that, I mean we would certainly : >. HL. & = “I 1s | be willing to grant you access to the deposition, to correct | it in any way necessary, but the Agency has requested that we ask you to waive your right to receive an actualy copy of the deposition.. Mr. Shaw. I have no problem with that. 300 7TH STRENT, ~ ey ae « — oa a : Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you.. “ead For the record, I would like to say that the Committee' S| mandate is to investigate the assassination of the President. : The scope of the mandate includes who killed the President, ~> a aa was there a conspiracy? We are also required to evaluate _OnbRET SLOERSON REFORTING COM Pane re HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 4
Ly 7 eee he 2% a ie Sca 1-4 the performance of the investigative agencies, specifically ‘the FBI and the CIA and to evaluate the work of the Warren 3 Commission. a 4 | Do you understand that as well? = 7 Mr. Shaw. Yes. z P | Mr. Goldmsith. Prior to coming here today, have you F 7 | discussed what your tesimony is going to be with any CIA 6 3 employee? i | : $ ! Mr. Shaw. I. havesnot,-except-to tell them that I was 2 ‘0 | going to tellithe truth when I. got ovér here. 5 ¢ 1 : Mr. Goldsmith. In terms of discussing the substance of = ! , , $ 19 your testimony? - & 13 | Mr. Shaw. None whatever. : ta | Mr. Goldsmith. fave you discussed with any CIA employee, : 1g past or present, who either has been interviewed by the ) : 2 1é Committee or has given a statement under oath,to the Committee, = Tt what questions were asked of him or her? : 13 | Mr. Shaw. I have not. : 13 ! Mr. Goldsmith. Are you here today voluntarily and e 20 | without subpoena? ut Mr. Shaw. Yes. = pe 22 ' Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. ame how long have you been working 22 ; under State Department cover? Mr. Shaw. Since approximately the date I came aboard, 24 | : Ww da because I was promptly sent to the Department of State for SECRET ALOERSON REPORTING COM PONY at eee a eee ag ann ne et at ne ee Re ee i i lag
~ ua By ca rity e pee oh | training. That would be March, 1948. > Mr. Goldsmith. Would your State Department file, if ' | | 3 | reviewed by a member of this Committee, indicate that you were | 4 | actually a CIA employee? i] z S| Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. 7 i , ra A Mr. Goldsmith. You do not understand how the cover ~ | s ‘ arrangement would work between the Agency and the Department * a | of State? ~ <a Mr. Shaw.- I have never had anything to do with the : 3 | He setting up of such cover. It would well be that there might | be some sort of an indicator or flag, or something in that | 32 i file that would indicate to a person who knew the ropes that i} | I was not bona fide. | H : 1d Mr. Goldsmith. Would there be a personnel file on you | at the Central Intelligence Agency? KEPORTEES BUPEDING, WASHCTUCTON, Mr. Shaw. Yes. | 7 Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of procédure, in terms of Z ia | how you get paid, do you get paid by the Department of State? a : : | Mr.*Shaw. No. I am under, at the present time, nominal: ¢ *| state cover... I actually, as. far as the Department of State eet concerned, resigned over there in 1973, I believe. At & : ra 22? the present time, I am ead by the. Agency. NW 50955 Mr.GGoldsmith. When you were working under cover, were 24 | you being paid by State at that time? Ww t Mr. Shaw. Yes, I was. — | Stone i SESSON REPORTING COMPANY DocId: 32277214 Page 6 ALDERSON REPOR Mears
wa os wa z 3 N i a F wa io] ~ nw i ro r~ 7 ~ & 3 = ™ 3 9 a - 10 S = = al _ an a es S a = 13 = = ta & te = tw = = és = n ive - & 18 a z= 19 = S 4 Ss 29 OSS” 23 EE ty x ao HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 7 ALDSERSON RES SS a SS eS Mrs Goldsmith. Are you familiar at all with the literature that has been generated by the assassination of the President and the work done by the Warren Commission? Mr. Shaw. Very little. I just noticed that green book there a minute ago. I have never read that thing... Mr. Goldsmith. Book 5, for the record, of the Senate Committee Report. Mr. Shaw. I have seen copies of the Warren Commission Report in various places around the government, but I never read it. Mr.. Goldsmith. When you were working with the State Department in other than a nominal capacity, what was your title? Mr. Shaw. My last title was Special Assistant to the Ambassador and First Secretary of Embassyf Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work as a consular officer?) Mr. Shaw. Yes, I did. Mr. Goldsmith. When you worked as a consular officer, were you required to fulfill both responsibilities as a con- sular officer and as a CIA employee? ' Mr. Shaw. To a certain extent. For example, I have never issued a visa. I have issued a passport for another consular officer who accepted the application and I would be on the road in horthwestern Mexico and issued the passport to the American citizen concerned. SEPRET RUA wan TING COMPANY oe ‘
to nN s~ w > CY “ ~ ~ f a - “a 9 a “ ' c Pa 7 ~~ ~ = 3 oe ™ re) 1 2 = 10 = is e - fl a “ . ii] = @ =: Gq fe = = La ts te = ty > = 1s > “a oT = = .. = 18 = n = 19 > = «4 Ss 20 4 2s ra 2 = ears 22 oN iy | 2s 264 28 HW 50955 DoclId: 1-7 I have done a modicum of what we call protection and welfare work. This would usually involve being again on the SS See road, stopping in, for example, in a prison to see if there was. an American citizen there, to find out what the story ‘was, why he was there, how he was being treated and that sort of thing, and relay that infornatdon to the consular when I got back. Sr ——————— adem eae te oar Reed I think that it has to do basically with the permissive- ness, or lack thereof, of the operational environment that. you are in. 2In Mexico, it-was not necessary to spend much _ SECRET ALDSSSON REPORTING COMPANY i 32277214 Page 8
te wv 3 5 N t a . wa fo} = N = 7 _— = a = ~ ray 3 e = [C s & S = ny ‘ent ‘ = . = a le e = 43 = = ta Fa “ = Us 2 = lg s ade 17 = 18 = “a z= 19 ~ = a S 20 ay Be) Bo 23 b> oe. Ww da HW 50955 DocId: time, at least not for me, on cover duties. Mr. Goldsmith. How long have you been working for the Office of the Inspector General? 4 Mr. Shaw. Since August of 1976. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any responsibility in the writing of the 1977 Inspector General Report pertaining to the CIA's. handling of the investigation of the Kennedy assassination? Mr. Shaw. None whatever. ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Has anyone ever interviewed you before pertaining to the Mexico City situation as far as it pertained to Oswald? Mr. Shaw. Yes. It was about that time of '76, some- body interviewed me in the CIA Headquarters building, and I think it was a Senate Committee, but I aminot sure. They had some files. . cee Mr. Goldsmith. Did you give your testimony under oath at that time? Mr. Shaw. No, not that I remember. Mr. Goddsmith. Did any CIA person ever interview you concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in Mexico City and the operations of the Mexico City station? Mr. Shaw.. I would have to qualify that. We discussed the subject, of course, in Mexico City at the time of the assassination, or immediately after the assassination. SECRET 92277214 Page 9 ALRESSON RESORTING COMPAAY
Ms 27 oy Sy 3h “+2 a ea ‘On Za fo ee av feats Ss 1=9 But I cannot recall that I was ever called in anywhere and asked for my account of what transpired after the assassina- , : i tion. | Mr. Goldsmith. Headquarters never asked you to come in Swiss Se eee. : 5 and give a description, for example, of Oswald's activities, | a 8 to your knowledge, in Mexico City in 1963? | g 7 | Mr. Shaw. No. I would not have known anything about | S a | Oswald*s activities anyway. | ‘ | Mr. Goldsmith. Are you familiar with the photograph | [4 . ' = 19 : that was taken in 1963%that was reportedly linked to Oswald | 2 | and which subsequently turned out not to be a picture of | = 7 Oswald? : a 2 i2 Mr. Shaw. I am familiar with a photograph that was ! z 14 identified by people at the station in Mexico City as possibly) : is | being an American-appearing person. I do not know that it | : iS | -was every considered ia be Oswald. | “ 17 | I think, if I remember correctly, what they were doing Mr. Goldsmith. We will get into that. My question is, did anybody from Headquarters ever ask you about that parti- cular photograph or the circumstances surrounding it? 300 7TH STREET, nn) nD — ~—e ~ o a On Mr. Shaw. Negative. esy ¢ ie i) Mr. Goldsmith. Did anybody from Headquarters ever ask |; you to give a statement or report as to the manner. in which the surveillance operation in Mexico City were underatken in Ww lo nN a 1963? | | | el oe] HW 50955 DocId:32277214 ‘Page 10 ALSERSGN REPORT
7. irl a Pe) € Br wre 3 stl-rz 3! ie; sg 2 ¥ e gout 1-10 j Mr. Shaw. No. Mr. Goldsmith. Where were you serving in 1963? Ww i | 3 | Mr. Shaw. From about the middle of April, I was serving 2 4 | in Mexico City in our station. : = 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. How long did you stay in Mexico City? | ~ i . é Mr. Shaw. I stayed there until September of 1966. | g 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Station Chief in Mexico | z , | city? | | ; : 3 Mr. Shaw. Winston Scott. | : Te Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give us your assessment of | S ' ’ : u | his competence? | S) 1 Mr. Shaw. Competence. It is difficult, because I was : | : | ee E. 13 not looking from on high. He was a brilliant. man. He was | 7 1 = ta reputed to have a doctorate in mathematics.. He had an uncanny | : ez ability to remember numbers and he carried in his head the ! zi 1s | file numbers of what we called P-files in Mexico City. P 2 - {7 . stood, I think; -for personality. A P number usually was four, z 13 ! digits or so, maybe five digits. ! = { E 19 | And he carried all these numbers in his head and he could e 29 | mark something for such and such a file in black ink -- he | . woe! always wrote in black ink -- putting the nuniiear: down. He had | eS - Bey al a very good memory for numbers. | - 23! Winn and I were friendly. We were not close. We were | Ww in | ij { & 24 i not on the same level at all. | I considered him to be, from my standpoint, a competent, | i i SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 11 ALDESSSON REPORTING COMPAAY
res) w zs CY Pa S N ! a . wa $ ms ~™ ' Cc ~~ 7 ~ GN Ps a ~™ Pay 9 a = S S s ti a < = {2 _ tS = we a i3 = = 14 fa n ~ & 16 a te 2 = 18 ae - nm \7 a - rd = is a = 19 ~ = “a = 20 ; at OE OS rw ee h, <- ‘J NW 50955 DoctId: 92277214 Page 12 1-11 effective, Chief of Station.. Mr. Goldsmith. What type of file-keeping system did he have in effect, without asking you to describe it in detail By that, my question is directed towards his thoroughness and comprehensiveness. Mr. Shaw. I would say that he probably had one of the most -- let me see -- complete file systems in being in the Agency. I think that he, my personal opinion is that he went overboard, and we had so much stuff back in our files, it was -hard to believe the amount of paper we had in there. His tendency was not to rely on cross-indexing. If ‘you have a document, this piece of paper means something to ‘you and you want to keep it and it has’ 15 names on it, he was quite capabié of setting up 15 files for the same piece of paper. And we had a tremendous file room. I often wondered if we needed that much paper. It was very thorough. I am not a technician as far as managing files, but I do know that the people who worked in the. file room were kept very, very busy. Mr. goldsmith. Who were Mr. Scott's chief deputies? Let me*rephrase the question. Upon which individuata did he tend to rely the most? Mr.. Shaws. He had one Deputy whowas Allen White. As far as reliance on other people, I would say he relied very heavily on Annie Goodpasture -- not in any way in a command . SEGR yak} SERSoN REPORTING COMPSRY
rye rs) > § 74 5 N ' a , w 8 a ™ Ss ~~ 7 ~ x N S a s ~ . a rz} Y a ° t = [0 S g = 1] — i Fe bit 7. BUELD ONG m3 REVORTE ERS = aw e = 18 a = 19 ~ ¢ = 30 4 7 I ees | ‘sf HW 50955 DocId function, but as a Girl Friday. | FBI agent named George Monroe, ‘Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Embassy building. ‘Mr. Goldsmith. | | | | | | to serve in Cuba. up the Cuban shop. | i He also seemed to think. rather highly of a former one-time | | What about David Phillips? Mr. Shaw. Yes.- Dave Phillips ran the what we called the CA side of the shop, covert action, mostly propaganda. I came to Mexico City with the understanding that I was qoing to head Very soon after I arrived there, Dave Phillips was tapped -- it was while we were still in the old He was tapped and named the new Cuban Office Chief. Did that happen in October '63? Mr. Shaw.. I don't know. I do not remember. But it was not too long after I was there, and I was asked, I think by Dave; I don't remember -= if I had any objections to continuing | I liked Dave, I respected him. I did not feel that I i was being hurt, hurt careerwise, to step back and I was very 1 j { . |interested in Cuban operations, so I did willingly, let us say, + relinquish command, | { i i} | taqain took over the ! ! i | Mr. Goldsmith. | ‘ uM Ly 232277214 Page 13 if you want. to, of Cuban Ops and I served Dave as one more officer. Later on, after Dave left, a year or two later, I once Cuban Ops group. You. were in charge of Cuban Operations at the beqinning. Then. Phillips took it over at some point and SEORET ALRERSON REPORTING COMPANY i i i i
Ww > ie) zr $ a ~~ GN ' a) : w fo] si ™ ’ = ~ 7 ~~ a o a S ~ uo e =~ 10 Ss = Ss = fi ~ is = @ =: = = ota e = £ 15 2 Zo: 3 = “1 \7 t S 13 = no = 19 ~ S « = 20 On ¢ © a /* HW 50955 DocId Mat te “ Hee “SJ a a then, afcar Phillips left, you went back to that position? | Mr Shaw. That is right. Mr. Goldsmith. Our review of Agency records indicates that Phillips would have assumed that position on October of 163. Would that be consistent with your recollection? Mr. Shaw. My recollection would have been, had you not place earlier than October, but I do not. know. I really do no know. Mrs Goldsmith. My questions are going to be eonfined, unless I indicate to the contrary, to the period up to the end of 1963. So, from the time of your arrival in Mexico City until the end of 1963, prior to the time that Mr. Phillips | | { en me this based on your review of the files, that it took | | assumed the position of Cuban operations -~ | | Mr. Shaw. Chief. | i H | Mr. Goldsmith. Chief would be the word, and you had those responsibilities, what did those responsibilities include? Mr. -:Shaw.:'.. Since it was not ratified to me upon my | arrival that. I was, indeed, Chief of Cuban Ops, I simply con- | sidered myself to be one more case officer working against the Cuban target. Our basic interest was in effecting pene- ' i ' t | ! i i i } | i What we wanted most of all were effective penetrations of the Cuban Embassy, the Cuban Intelligence Service, and some: possible line-in to their communications set-up. i ! | trations of the Cuban government. 1 | i | | i | i _ See eal ORTING COMPANY \ Hl 132277214 Page 14 3
| | Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963, did you manage to place any |}penetration agents in the Cuban Embassy or consulate? | Mr. Shaw. Did I? | | | | | t= Mr. Goldsmith. Did the station? Mr. Goldsmith. What snes: did ShesS people give . = 3 Mrs Shaw. There were two. I did not place either one, e 46 and I think they both pre-dated 1963. x | & | Mr. Goldsmith. Were those two penetration agents within S = the Cuban consulate or Embassy at the time of the President's 9 || assassination? i He Mr. Shaw. Yes. One was in the consulate -- LITAMIL-7 Ha |was the cryptonym. L-I-T~A-M-I-L-7. And the other one was i 12 | the Embassy -- L@I-T-A-M-I-L-9. i fa t you afterithe assassination: ‘pertaining to the possible involve-! i iment of the Cuban government? 3 RE POW EE 5S PUPEDTING, CASHTMSTOU, B.C. i | j i] { | i i] j | j | ! | | | } i | { | Mr. Shaw. I did not handle LITAMIL-7,-and LITAMIL-9. I i SoM. va wR oe o did handle, ~~ ge 13] Mr. Goldsmith. Who handled LITAMIL-7? a = 17 | Mr. Shaw. I think that it. was [ but I am not |; a | sure. I did not meet LITAMIL-7 untilf i left the i | — | country. | ye 2 Mr. Goldsmith. You nevertheless have had access to the |! } information that this individual gave to Swider? Mr. Shaw. I would normally have seen copies of contact > roa reports which were reports that we wrote.--‘any of us who were ; ALSERSON pela w cueant wo dn NW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 15
rye we P = 3 nN 1 a P _w fe) Ps ~ i s 7 — ny ~ 3 9 Ff - 10 S S = ial a « ec : = Eg ~ ; = Ss = ta fa or = - = 1s S = = 18 = =] ws i7 Py + = i3 on wv = 19 Be = «a = 20 fa} aa , ae yoN 23 HW 50955 DoclId: 1 ee iio SESS SSS ee 32277214 Page 16 Cr ‘eo 3° hae: ae 1-15 case officers wrote -- after station meetings, and it would have been normal for me, for example, to see any information of consequence that LITAMIL-7 produced, just like it would have been normal for any other case officer in the Cuban sec- tion to see my contact reports on meetings with LITAMIL-9. Mr. Goldsmith. In light of that, do -you know what infor- mation LITAMIL-?7'/gave concerning the Cuban government's reac- Mr. Shaw. I do not recall, and I do not recall the specifics of anything. You may have something in your files | with my name on it; I do not know what LITAMIL-9 produced. \ | | | | | | | | | | | tion to the death of the President? | | | | I do have the recollection of the sense of feeling on the ! part of those people that there was no exultation or jubila- | | tion or happiness whatsoever inside the Cuban Embassy at the | { | assassination of President Kennedy. : | Mr. Goldsmith. Did the penetration agents ever indicate | that Oswald. had been to the Embassy and had stated that he was | going to attempt to kill the President? Mr. Shaw. No, not that I know of. Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of those agents ever indicate that. , | Oswald had had contact with the Agency -~ with the Embassy, ! rather? | Mr. Shaw. I. whould imagine that LITAMIL-7 probably did -- i ' ' I do not recall. it. But since she was in the consulate, and 1 4 -~since it was my understanding that Oswald's contact with the ALDSRSON REPORTING COMPANY
tw tos ef SA Se 3 | L<16 spoke about it. I do not know. ‘ 1 ! | | | % | | | | ' | | ” | : a 5 ' -Mr. Goldsmith. What was the name of LITAMIL-7? 2 6 Mr. °Shaw.. tid rather not give names. : "| (Discussion off the record.) a Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, in light of your response, I am ‘ 9 certainly aware of the sensitivity of this issue and of your | a i = 10 |concern for sources and methods, and I would also make two | : 1 [points. One is that under the letter, you are free of your | = a | secrecy obligation. At the same time, I am not about to rely a : i2 : upon that letter to compel an answer out of you, because you : : is = here voluntarily today to help us And, as I said, el : ae: understand your concern.for a sensitive source in this case, : ft am not going to ask you to state for the record the name of | a“ 17 | either one of these individuals. E a Mr. Shaw. May I say something at this point? Le I z 19 | Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. | S 20 | Mr» Shaws, It is my understanding that both of these xa people are, if they are still alive, are living in Mexico and - | e fx 21 I do not want to be in a position of revealing a name which a nc i ‘ ; could harm either of those people. I notice here that it says -- : ’ » Mr. Carlucci? | e 34 Mr. Goldsmith. You are referring now to the letter from i | HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 17 Tenens " 1
Mr. Shaw. Yes. 2 | "To provide the affected person the. opportunity to | } ; * | receive guidance from me or my designees on the applicalility © 4 ! of this authorization, particularly to questions which are ! ! : 5 asked." | ‘ 7 I would like to get Frank Carlucci to tell me that I vould : Ts two names of agents, if it is necessary --or you can | e » | ei out from the file, probably, who they are. | : | “Mr. Goldsmith. Mr, Shaw, I understand your position. : oft want to make sure you understand mine. I am in no way | = |! | g 11 | £orcing you to reveal a name. Once you had demonstrated a | g 12. | reluctance to, then, as far as I was ee then the | 2 { | ee : 12 matter was terminated. | = | Mr. Shaw. No problemz = is Mr. Goldsmith. I will say that we will pursue this by S it | = \s | contacting the appropriate people at the Agency. : 3 74 Mr. Shaw. I think if you requested the Agency for those | 2 7 two names, it would probably produce them. I wouldn't want to in { : . be the guy to say it. e *| Mr. Goldsmith. I understand your position perfectly. | — I hope you understand mine. i @ Bs 22 | Mr. Shaw. I do. | : . is | Mr. Goldsmith. I would not want you to go back to the | a : Agency and say that the staff of this Committee attempted to ! ®)> os compel an answer out of you. _ SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 18 DERSON REPORTING COMPANY
1-18 i : | Mr. Shaw. I will not say any such thing. tl Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. For the record, would you spell the cryptonyms of these a ar agents? Mr. Shaw. One of them was LITAMIL-7 -- L-I-T-A-M-I-L - 7. 6 | Te other was LITAMIL-9. : Mr. Goldsmith. Are these two agents still active? | ¢ j neither one is active.. . | Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, LITAMIL-7, 1 was that agent working out of the consulate? { H | | | | Mr. Shaw. Neither one is active. I am quite sure that | ! } | | | | t 7 Mr. Shaw. That agent was an employee of the consular | | | section of the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. LITAMIL-9 was an ~ officer of the Embassy. | | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, on the question of the identity ! RPVORTERS BRUELDIHG, WASITMGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) S54-2345 14 lof these two agents, when you go back to the Agency, could you . i 17 raise this. question with the appropriate individual, appropri- | : i. i a 13 |ate superior authority, and we will do the same so that some = i ‘ hh | = 15 | time this. week we can get together on that? a iy e 20 | Mr. Shaw. I. do not see any reason for us to get together. | oe | \ H 41 |you can get it from them, I am sure. It is just that I have “27 22 da rather strong feeling about protecting anybody who has * / icooperated with us. 1 ' i i { t { i It is not that I consider you do not have a right to that ‘information, if you feel that you need it. It is just that I | i ALDESSON REPORTING COMFARY HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 19 3 + i
Ra cain: Vie: Waa tw ta ae J 1-19 1 cannot bring myself to reveal the true name of an agent unless | t i I am required to do so. tw Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that concern. I certainly respect it. | | | = § (Pause) | ~ s 1 " ! | a ‘| I have been informed by my researcher, Dan Hardway, that | a i . . | S ue AGency is in the process of looking into this issue. S 3 1 Mr. Shaw. Okay. | Sg 9 I Mr. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like to get into d | H . ° . . s 2 | = a | ene area of the telephone taps that were in operation in 1963 | 2 ‘ H = 1) | against the Cuban Embassy and consulate. My first question is,| = | ‘ : I = yes responsibility, if any, did you have with regard to the | ° | ' ¢ i H = = 12 | telephone tap operation? | = Is 4 Mr. Shaw. No responsibility. I saw the product, | 5 15 | usually. | Z ys} Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who was in charge ; S.W. of that tap? Mr. Shaw. I do not know whose responsibility it was. — « a | I rather suspect that it may have been Ann Goodpasture's, but 200 Trt STRELT, 3 = 20 | I do not know for sure. I do not remember. | H } ce oe There were two telephone operations, two tap operations. OST 'One of them was unilateral and-one of them was joint with the te oN, nN to + Mexican government. > Mr. Goldsmith. Which one was the unilateral one? By Ww iwry that, I mean which phones were covered by the unilateral one? bores ALSERSON REPORTING COMPANY . HW 50955 DocId:3 NS 277214 Page 20
1-20 : | ho Mr. Shaw. There was a mix,-and I cannot recall which i ! & 2 Iv were which. It may well have been that we were tapping some : J | Cuban Embassy phones unilaterally, and some of them were being | | | i> || tapped jointly.. I know that there was coverage on the joint tap 3 - operation, which I believe was called LIENVOY. I am not sure. = 6) Mr. Goldsmith. That is correct. | iS : You indicated that you think Ann Goodpasture may have been § 2 | responsible for the telephone tap operation against the Cuban | J | operation. What basis do you have for that? | ¢ z 10 | Mr. Shaw. Responsible in the sense of picking up the fake : nyt am not sure of that, because I know she did some of that ki nd a = 12 of work. I am not sure who did it. We used to get copies of : € : #2 the icxangoxints and I remember -- I am sure I saw some of the | = 4 Cuban stuff on joint taps. And then, of course, taps that ! IS | were run by the Mexican government. 40000 0 : : 1g Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review the-transcripts that came : sd -in as a matter of regular routine? . | 7 Mr. Shaw. Yes. w“ E : Mr. Goldsmith. Did you read all of them?. S 7 | Mr. Shaw. No. | — Mr. Goldsmith. Which ones would you read? | a CSA Mr. Shaw. I would have been interested primarily in the Cuban ones, and what they called the resuma -- it was sort of ES te it Js wd oo | a a Spanish word for resume ~~ the resuma was a distillation, | if you will, of the digest of the joint tap that was prepared, : : i SESS 20 T hk Patok XY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 21 me GN REPORTING € bess
e ] 4 wow > 2 5 ~ { a P wi 8 ~~ ~ . = ~ 7 oe “ e a — GN . a roy 7 ce - i${¢ S ~ Lan] = Wi a “a = 4 @ a (9 S. i = 12 aa i = = 14 vn a t= 1< = bw S = 18 -— a mn \F ~- Pye 74 tes & 13 pa n = 19 = = a Ss 29 oS VSS fe a ~m i bd os Ww dn NW 50955 DocId: L=21 » | which may be two pages, and you may have the gist of what might! | be a whole bunch of pages of tap. 1 | is that correct? Mx; Shaw. Normally, I read some of that stuff. I do not | | } | | | sations that took place on telephones of the Cuban Embassy, i | i } | remember whether I saw it all:.or.not,;: becausesquite a bit of | | | Mr. Goldsmith. Normally, you read transcripts of conver- | s was processed by other people. I do not know who they werer people on the outside, I suppose. And I read summaries of | a appeared on these things, but I remember also, at times, | seeing the verbatim -- Man Outside says - and so;. Person | Inside, Woman Inside, says such and such. ! Mrs Goldsmith. Sometimes you would get - summary trans- criptions..of: the:summary’ canvérsations. or English and sometimes # you would get verbatim translations, is that correct? { | Mr. Shaw. Yes. I would see them, I would not get them. : They would go past me. I would see them. | Mr. Goldsmith. Was it more likely that what you would se | - verbatim form, conversations. that took place, for example, } . i in Russian and had to be translated before you received them? accwkte a ee ML. Mr. Shaw. I certainly would not see any conversations : | i | | in Russian, because the Cuban Embassy did not have any Russian | | | conversations. I cannot readily answer that question. I am ; not really sure I fully understand it. I do remember seeing i SECRET u ALSERSON REPORTING COMPANY 32277214 Page 22 A
2 3 4 4 wo z -s N 1 a a 6 ~ ™ o~ 7 ~ re s << S So N ray 9 F = {0 3 ag = ON a < = = 12 = = t4 v & 5 & 2 = Ié a VW a r e 18 r el = 9 = = « Ss 20 a Ser a 434 ur’ aa io NW 50955 3 1-22 la variety of take, what we call take, from the various tap {operations This take sometimes was processed into English. | The stuff that appeared in the resuma was in Spanish. Sometime: : the conversations were typed out in Spanish and translated into: ! English. I prefer them in Spanish, because I am at home in | Spanish. | | Mr. Goldsmith. How many people reviewed the take from |tesrtonn Mr. Shaw. I — no idea. I assume there were quite a | few. The stuff was widely passed around. Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, how many people Ss | | | ithe surveillance operation of the Cuban Embassy and consular | | | | \ | | | | would review them? Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. cence BL Mr. Goldsmith. How many people were in Cuban operations? Mr. Shaw. I would guess five or six. Mr. Goldsmith. Who were they? Mr. Shaw. Dave Phillips. Mr. Goldsmith. We are talking now about the period 1963? | Mr. Shaw. That is right. Dave Phillips,rmyself | —_ I am trying to think of the girl's name. We had | | | Various secretaries in there. I.do not know who was the secre- | tary in '63. ( I'm not sure she was there at | | that time.. ————— é F ‘ t Of course, Allen White would see it. Winn Scott would see _eebRe DocIa: 39277214 Page 23 Loess EPORTING COMPANY
re) > w = 5 pe { : a » a? fe) ~ ~ = =? ~ > s 3 = N 3 3 a = ‘''0 2S Gg = 1 a st a “. & = @ :: Pad te = BS ta nn = As Sd = 4s an ar re n = ~ = a Ss 3 2] anal iow ol “A if aa & fea’ 32 got 23 Os , Zs HW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 24 ALBERS L=23 it. Mr. Goldsmith. They would not review every transcript ox summary that came in, would then? Allen White or Winn Scott?! Mr. Shaw. I imagine Winn. Scott; I do not know about Allen White. Winn was pretty much, he tended to review almost | all of the. paper that came in and out of the station. a Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying that there was no routine procedure established for who was to coder the take from the Cuban telephone surveillance operations? . Mr. Shaw. -I am saying that, when I got there, the case officers in Cuban Opa. saw the stuff that was routed around through the station and that persisted during the time that I was there. Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that the answer -- Mr. Shaw. How that was routed, I am not sure. Mr. Goldsmith. pid you customarily see every conversa~ tion that came in? Mr. Shaw. I doubt it. I doubt.it. Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have seen the conversation and decided that it was not important enough to end your atten- tion? Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Mr. Goldsmith. “Who brought in the take from these. opera~ | tions to the. station? | | Mr. Shaw. Ido not know that either, but it was my SEGRE! ON REPORTING COMPARY
1-24 t - . tunderstanding that non-official cover. people on the outside picked up. the tapes -- don't consider this gospel, but this { is my understanding -- Biekes up tapes from the various listen- | ing posts, some of which had been processed by people in the listening post; some of which had not. But they, in turn, | either processed those tapes or took them to people to continue | the processing in case they had a foreign language in them, or 20024 (202) S6"-2345 Os ~“ Somebody went out from the station, probably with a little D.C. Wey attache case. or sernahelinet, and picked up takes again. It is TON, ¢ = te my understanding that the person primarily involved in that Q ASUTU was: Ann Goodpasture, but I do not know for sure. Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the first person that the trans~- ——— | | | | i ; | something, and nee turn them over to the station. | . { | | t | | | | } > cripts would go to upon their arrival at the Embassy? Mr; Shaw. I rather suspect Winn Scott, because I remember REPORTERS BULTEDTHG, great numbers of those white pages that came across our desk. SLU, ~ a had P numbers written on them in black ink by Winn Scott. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how many lines were being tapped at the Cuban consulatevand Embassy? Mr. Shaw. I do not know. ano aru STRENTC, bh — -- oO oa Mr. Goldsmith. You reviewéd the transcripts and summaries | i ~ ry of these conversations for two years and you have no idea how | many lines were tapped? . iy uw Mr. Shaw. No. This was fifteen years aqo- I can give eo 8 ery /X4 ta you a guess. _ SECRET ESORTING COMPSHY > rs HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 25 ALD Se
rr w = 3 a = nN i} o 3 w 6 ~ ~ ‘ a. 7 ~ > N S 3 end ~ s a roy 7 i] w «48 g = U1 a ss = ra Ve oS @ =: = = a L = i3 g = is = “7 r Pag 1s G13 = * n = 19 =~ e = 29 SS eo Lat OY v rR wu > + . BSE ‘\ VAN ay to Ww te HW 50955 DocId: 1-25 | ! Mr. Goidsmith. Sure. A best guess would be helpful. Mr. Shaw. I would guess three or four lines. The primary interest was in the Soviets. You had far more converage. | | | : That is a guess. Mr. Goldsmith. Understood. | | | | | Mr. Shaw. I would guess, off-hand, two lines in the | | | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the Cuban consul's Felephor i | Embassy, one line in the consulate. ! | Mr. Shaw. -If the consulate line was tapped -- was tapped? | “Mr. Goldsmith. It would have been his? | Mr. Shaw. Probably it would have been his, but they may ! have had a direct line in there. I do not know. : Mr. Goldsmith. How would a releohone tap actually work? | I am talking now about the actual mechanics of the tap. | Mr. Shaw. I do not know. ‘I never had anything do do ! | with them. I know they used to take some of their taps at | what. they call the junction boxes. Thesexwould be the boxes | | out in the. street where lines came in to be fed into this | central -- I would rather suspect that the joint. operations | were mostly done at the central, since the Mexican government | simply could have issued oxdacu, you will tap such and such a | phone. Mr. Goldsmith. My question is oriented towards the following. Once a tap has been placed on a line, would that _ SECRET 42277214 Page 26 SERSON REPORTING COMPANY
L=26 i be picked up, so long as the tap is in effect? mean that. all calls, ingoing or outgoing, on that phone would nN 2 eS Mr. Shaw. So long as it is in effect, yes. Whether those ij would appear in the transcripts. is another matter. If it desk? Mr. Shaw. I cannot answer your question with any preci- BUTLDING, Paty REPORTERS BUTEDTS sion. There was a system in the Embassy whereby if you had | { a 5 | was like a wrong number, or somebody saying pick up three rolls 3 | and bring them home for lunch, probably it would not appear on | S| | | = we transcript. ~ | = i ‘ A ‘ S | Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make that decision? | ) a - Mr. Shaw. Whoever transcribed the tapes. | z= 1G Mr. Goldsmith. How much time would pass from the moment | = I : | = !1 | that a call came in until the transcription passed across your | - | | | H i 1 . ; . . | isla fast-breaking situation, or something.like that, you could -< is yt sure would like to get the transcripts of such and such a ; = | Pa 7 | Aine fast, and that information would be processed and funneled a 18 | back in to the Embassy or into the station on a priority 3 a |. = !9 || basis. = | | ec | ‘ F . , { a 29 | I would guess, offhand, that it ran -- again, this isa |! i | t ’ -we~_*! | guess -- five, six, seven days. We a Mr. Goldsmith. What about the high priority cases? nN ou Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can get that pretty fast. a nd . Mr. Goldsmith. Within a day? Ww ta Mr. Shaw. Yes. We could have somebody looking for a SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 27 © ALDERSON REFORTING COMPANY
127 i | certain call, and I do not recall ever doing that. But it i | Ww was my understanding that if you expected some situation, that cosy you could levy a requirement -- for example, let me give you = tv a for instance here. dn Mr. Shaw. I got them in. batches and I would review them ye Rte) f just in the order in which they came. I might have shuffled them in chronological order, yes. Quite often they came in four or five or six pages stapled together. Mr. Goldsmith. Would they tend to come in chrolological | SEGRE! ALEERSSON REPORTING COMPANY NW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 28 2S | | w | = | Let us suppose that wes the station, someone in the sta- | = | “a 64 tion was going to make a recruitment pitch to a Soviet officer; 2. il | S ‘| It would have been possible for the station to have organized = 2 i things so that there was a live body and not just a machine | ~ i \ in t 3 9 | hanging over phone calls coming in to the Soviet Embassy in | = iC case the guy called up and said, let me tell you the discus- | = ‘! {| sion I just had, or something like that. | = % This would be a little far-fetched, because a Soviet z i : ee Bg 13 | would not be likely to handle it by Phone. But in a case | = i = . i . . ‘ if where you are looking for. something fast-breaking-to protect q | = i3 } yourself, being on top of the situation -- it would not apply | S it i ee oe . . | much to Mexico, but if you had a revolutionary situation “ m breaking out someplace, surely there is a possibility of = '8 | getting information very quickly off any given line.. a _ = fj Mr. Goldsmith. Would the transcripts’. be reviewed.by . = . | . . : = 29 || you in chronological order? ! i { i | i :
4 3 e ‘ wm = 5 N~N 1 nn wo - 8 A N = 7 — = _m™ 2 CJ ~~ = ™ 3 9 c m iC 2 ; g = $4 n < = 13 '& cS = ° @ =» = “ , x & i3 S = = 13 > ww 17 ie = 9, 4 13 a z 1 =~ = = 2 HW 50955 DocId: 1-28 | order so you read a transcript from the 15th before the 16th? | | Mr. Shaw. Generally yes, right. they were reviewed by you? | | Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to the transcripts after | | | Mr. Shaw. They were usually routed. They had a routing | ! ! i | i i ! t ! { | { i H | sheet on it, and they would go on to somewhere else. Where they went, I do not know. Sometimes we would mark them for | files. Of course, if there were a transcript. in there that | [nag specific information on somebody that we were interested | la we would mark a copy for the files and it would go into that person's -- either their P-file, which was their personnel i | file, or into any operational self-file that would we make, building up background information on a person, the little | | | | | i i | ! | | i | or with living conditions or the cost or what. have you of the il i H ae things like whether an officer's wife was unhappy with the maid i i 7 SeRESEeEE These little bits and pieces were built up and | jemese came from transcripts.. Mr. Goldsmith. Would these transcripts eventuallyiget sent to headquarters? that Winn Scott ever threw anything away. It was somewhere, Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I will say that it was unlikely! i Mr. Goldsmith. What about the tapes? What would happen 4 iwi the tapes after a conversation had been transcribed? Mr. Shaw. Again, you are getting into an area where I : SECRET i SLOERSON REPORTING COMFAA 32277214 Page 29 ALSESSON
on Piet eyed a = Res | we Le AFSL 8 1-29 never had any personal experience. It is my understanding that tapes were erased and reused, and they were used over and over again. Otherwise, we would have ended up with a room |. ta full of tapes and there really was no reason to keep them. 4 UL REPORTERS RUTEDING, MASHTNGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) S54-2345 as a wee i i es acinomae sso, | | | t | ; | Now, I would also assume that if there was something | ! important on a tape that they might have held it. I do not ' 7 ow. I do not recall ever saying, hold that tape for me. ; || The transcript usually sufficed as the record. 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if, at the time of the assassina- | tion, that the station had a tape recording of Lee Harvey | 1) | Oswaia's voice? | 2 | Mr. Shaw. No, I do not know if they did. I think they | . yy [aia not. It was my understanding that what they had was a transcript of some guy calling, again, it is my understanding. | I believe he called the Soviet Embassy from the Cuban Embassy, or the Cubans called the Soviet Embassy, I am not sure. But — a TS oa as far as having the tape with Oswald's voice on it, I seriously = a = jg ;doubt it. mh | 1 i = 19 | (Discussion off the record.) ~ \ ' , { : | ¢ 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you now what was a marked here as CIA No. 197 and, for purposes of the record i | and for your information, the Agency has provided us with its i (@ecupentes Each page has been assigned a number. The reason | 4 24 it has been aasiqned a number is s0 that the Agency can make i i sure that everything given to the Committee is returned. For Ww dna "NG COMPSAY HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 30 ALOGASON REPORT
wr > lwhen we are going through this pile of materials. ih) ! | Now I would like you to take a look at CIA No. 197, the | | | i = paragraph. | | ? | (Pause) | 3 7 Mr. Shaw. Okay. | rs 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. The second paragraph indicates that the | z 5 | station is unable to compare the voices, as the first tape was | ¢ 5 , erase prior to the bees pt. of the. second call. , | : t9 Mr. Shaw. Yes. | : Wl Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that at least | 2 3 lone tape was still in ecitencs on November 23rd, the date | & = 1 [that this cable was aaa Otherwise, the second paragraph would - | |have said the tapes had been erased, ‘routinely, whatever. a i | 5 al Mr. Shaw. It could indicate that. It does not definitely E 1é state that. That is an interpretation, certainly. : i : =. in| Mr. Goldsmith. Does that refresh your memory as to whether E ta los not there was a taping system? + | = : . Mr.. Shaw. I do not have anything in writing. This did : 39 | not refresh my memory at all. This probably would have been | . 1: lconsidered. Was this after the neueminationt : SS Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. ; | 23 | Mr. Shaw. No, I do not think it necessarily indicates, | but. I. am surpyised that it does not say that they were both —— t or both erased. Ww daa ‘NW 50955 Docld:33277214 Page 31
Shu: AE i 1-31 ‘| Mr. Goldsmith. Please take a look at CIA 208. 4 | Me. Shaw. 208. . | + | Mr. Goldsmith. And read paragraph number four. Read it | ee 4 | to yourself, please. : 4 | (Pause) | : | Mr. Shaw. Yes. | e 7 Mr. Goldsmith. According to paragraph number four, it | & ; | indicates that it seems.a voice comparison of some kind was | ¢ ‘ + | made. | | : Te Mr. Shaw. Yes, or it could well be that this guy, Fine- | q Velase -<- | | 3 af Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Tarasoff? | = 5 1 Mr. Shaw. Remembered the poor Russian of the first tape | - HI 2 land the poor Russian of the second tape and figured that it £ ii E 1s lwas the same guy. | = i a S| Mr. Goldsmith. How long were tapes normally retained ; prior to being erased? s.t a z * | Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. It would seem to me if you had 5 yo : = 13 i very productive tape, you probably would not keep it very € 70 |long, once you transcribed it. i it aril (Pause) ae iy =, i Mr. Goldsmith. -I would like you to read the CS comment on CIA 239. Mr. Shaw. I have read it. ; vey “hs /* ns to i Mr. Goldsmith. According to that, it indicates that the 197 LLEERSON REPORTING COMP suny HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 32 ALSERSS
Scune i 1-32 -7 > _ | norma time lag would be two weeks. In other words, the tapes = | | woutd normally be retained for a two-week period. | Mr. Shaw. That is what it seems to say, yes. a Mr. Goldsmith. Is that consistent with your memory now, = i z 7 at. the time?. | ‘A / Mr. Shaw.. No, I do not have any idea. I was-not involved! : 7 [an tape pick-ups or tape erasures. | 6 2 | Mr. Goldiemith. The Oswald telephone calls, as we will see| < \ : + | tater on, came in within approximately four days of each other, : 'g [ttras CIA 239 indicates, the tapes were normally retained for | : 1 | two weeks prior to being routinely erased. Does that. suggest | 3 | to you that the Cawald- tape Waes for some reason, treated in : & Z 13 an unusual manner, because either the first call came in, let' s y 5 ef say September 27th. By the time the second call came in, the : _ i = \j | first tape had already. been erased.. | : 7 Mr, Shaw..:-No,°it:does not. suggest that::to me. -= what is thie ora : va ; ber here -- because'thimessace came out 9 December 63. What it 18 [susseste to me is that, subsequent to the assassination, is 13 ees the station was to hold tapes for. a minimum of two weeks. an art STREET, 39: Mr. Goldsmith. Please read into the record what 239 says.! mre tt il Mr. Shaw. CS comment... station to erase routine tapes, oa? » Soviet” Embassy, keeping -normal two week lag. t- £ lag would not be two weeks? a2 ie) Mr. Shaw... This was not. addressed. to me. ws ta L 22 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that the normal | _ q i SECRET oY E2O8TNG COMA SALY | NW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 33
SECRET 1-33 ; | Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that. @ 4 ; Mr. Shaw. There is no reason for me to read this anymore ‘than there is reason for you to read that. ~The words stand ow | a 4 | by themselves. | z= § | Mr. Goldsmith. That is right, and you have just given an | ~ | : 5 interpretation of those words, suggesting that that the mean- | 2 - ing is prospective in intent. In other words, after December | & 3 ls, 1963, the timelaq for retention of tapes prior to erasure ; 3 would be two weeks. : : 1g : Mr. Shaw. I think it could ead. that, yes. I do not know S i 2 rr what went on between Winn and the station.as far as periods ! : v7 , for keeping these, but. I think. what you are trying'to do is Lead & : 12 ime into a situation of pedneing out that. the station was vanlan! : ts | in destroying tapes, and I do not believe that is the case. | : tg Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to indicate te you, and also | : 18 for the-record, that what I am trying to , do here is go over | 2 17 | questions that are raised by the cOcNnES and the Committee : g 13 pe no predisposition, one way or the other, to reach any | 7 19 [Particular conclusions. ! : 20 The truth is ‘that. unless these questions are asked of | 41 you, both the agency and the Committee will be criticized by | e fa/ 2 people in the future who review these documents and say, why oN By *s : 27 iwere not. these questions asked of you. | @ 24 i Mr. Shaw. I can understand why you are asking the ques~ 25 tions. I am simply not. in a position to tell you, from memory SECRET REPORTING COMPS > r o HW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 34
nn : re t ior anything else what the normal station procedure was regard- . + | ing retention of tapes, although, as I did indicate earlier, 3; that the tapes were routinely erased and used over again. As | co far as the time lag, you know as much about it, and probably 7 more than I do, by now. with. regard to the photo-surveillance operation against the ~a Cuban Embassy and consulate? «aw SS) \ | | | | | | | | Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibility, if any, did you have | | | | | } Mr. Shaw. I had no responsibility for that operation until after. Tsreassuméd the Cuban Ops section which would have | been the day Phillips left for Mexico, probably a year ox two down the road. I do know, however, that the operation -- there was a Cuban photo, ox & photo operation against the Cuban Embassy. I do not remember why, but I think that observation was not active in the period when Oswald was in Mexico. If I remember correctly, the man, to the best of my knowledge who | handled that, who was actually the inside case officer, if | { 9 | ¥8 will, was the little guy who was snapping the pictures, 300 PTU-STRENT, GS. REPORT RIGS BUTEDING, HASHTUGTON, 0.C. 20024 (202) S54-2345 rity OL he is — and living in Mexico. I do not know. \ jjwas a fallew by the name of eamiendc Bembanmed-, and I believe | | | “ys ‘ ‘{ “ Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the station case officer responsible i running the photo-surveillance operation against. the > uw | Cubans? a oe) os sys i ey ta Mr. Shaw. As far as I know,. it was Robert Zambarnardi, os ee SLQERSON REPORTING S COMPANY NW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 35 | -ALDERSON RE! Messe Ww dies
SEGKE 4 & 7 * H | we was the <enhniead officer of the station. He was a { | technically qualified man. aos H Mr. Goldsmith. There was no one overseeing him? Mr. Shaw. I do not believe so, but maybe Dave was. I | | : = |) a not know. We used to get batches of pictures. One of the | ; 3 é | things: that would do with the agent that I mentioned earlier ‘ "pe that I handled-was.take batches of these pictures to him | : 3 jand sit down with him and say, did you ever see this guy, or | iz 9 || who was that? And he'd*say, that's a courier, or that's the a = 10 [nes officer who just arrived, or I do not ‘know who this guy |: : Mm |vas, but he came in and talked to so and so, that sort of | a - 2 thing. | e 13 We used to try to identify people with those pictures. | : 14 i Mr. Goldsmith. How many. photo bases were there taking | e 1§ [pictures of the Cuban consulate and Embassy? 3 = Is | Mr. Shaw. To the best of my knowledge, there was only / “ 7 jone photo base. At times, the consulate was not covered and ! 2 ia i the Embassy was. If I may draw you a picture, this would be. : ” i E 19 lene block, the compound block. The Cuban Embassy was the | S 29 Ibig building up ene, and there was a little gatehouse down | | 21 | ea anal ‘here. I do not remember whether it was in or out. This was the consulate, on the corner. People who would want to get visas would routinely appear here and hey would leone them down the street and they would go into the soneulenes isometimes chay knew where they were going and hey came in here, 8 . . ALESSSSN eae § roan NW 50955 DoclId:32277214 Page 36 e £
| SEUREI 1-36 lor they asked a cab, take me to the Cuban consulate, they ~ i |would probably be delivered here. | | This is a block, a city block. The house from which the photographs were taken is over here on this corner. The | i | = sg} photographs were taken long distance down here and here. This | ~ ! 1 i | wo | Was not always covered. This was considered more important, , I a { ¢ 7 | because it was routine -- either there was a lot of routine | ps | “ 3 ivisa stuff here. | gs 3 Later on, subsequent -- gosh, it must. have been a year a | | tq | later. I do not remember just when -- we developed a system, 1} jor somebody up here in-the states who developed a system ! i i { il i 12 j whereby the camera would be triggered automatically. That is H | , Movement -- sort of like a photo-electric cell or something -- iv | novenens up here in the picture that the camera was to cover ! oO | | would cause a series of photos to be taken, maybe four or si | | ! | five, zap, zap, zap, something like that. Ul REPORTERS BUTLDING, WASHELUCTON , rary s ~t But I believe that, at the time Oswald was in Mexico City, S 1g jnot only was this down for some reason and not. functioning, a ! \ in an , i = 19 bs I believe, had it been functioning, that it would have S 20 ene picture snapping. I do not think that auto® . a1 |matic equipment was in Mexico at. that time. I could be fe7 | WEONG« Mr. Goldsmith. I am not going to be able to introduce & ee 4 *< > ie) 2 this diagram into the record, so I am just going to describe 23 |} it as best as I can. i ih pe SECRET ALDESSON REPORTING COMPAMY. HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 37
ob pe SEU 1i“37 You indicated that on one block, on one corner of that ; i a5 i B “ : a t block -was a consulate building for the Cubans. The other side of the block was the Embassy building. 4 ; 4 a Across the street was the photo base. a 4 3 Mr. Shaw. ‘This was all wall. This was a compound. z é | Excuse me, if I may interject. There was another building back a i that had a theatre downstairs and had offices upstairs. x 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Was that within the compound also? — | . , | - Mr. Shaw... Yes. | a | : | = 19 Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Three buildings within the Cuban compound?’ : li Mr. Shaw. Yes. | : rs Ome. Goldsmith: : .The-photo-base ‘was located across the , & = 2 oe Z€ was Closer to the consulate than it was to the - 2 ag | entrance of the Embassy? i ! 13 i Mr. Shaw. That is correct. Mr. Goldsmith. From the diagram that you drew, it would fh. REPORTERS “ 7 } seem that the location of the camera was. closer to the consulate . { 1 rz 2 ig | than it was to the Embassy entrance, yet you also indicated : a i : a = 19 || that. most of the people of interest would have been entering = 1 ; ; . 3 he Embassy, not the consulate? | ’ { —— at | Mr. Shaw. That. is correct” XS il @ gx 224 Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Was not the placement. of that camera in 22 'an inappropriate position? | - Mr. Shaw. I imagine that camera was placed wherever we 23 | could get it. Getting real straight across from one, of those oe SECRET - ALDERSON REPORTING COMPAMY HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 38
7 embassies was very difficult. “yg > = 4 i I know, had we had our druthers, we would have placed that camera closer up here and the Soviet Embassy had a similar o j Phe | ! 4 sort of situation, a camera over here and one down here. I z 5 , bethewe thei:closer the better, yes. :: ' Mr. Goldsmith. How many photo bases were there operating | g e | againse the Soviet compound, without drawing a diagram? | & a I Mr. Shaw. I do not know, but I think there must have | = | , 3 pe two or three. | : 19 Mr. Goldsmith. Are you sure you were not =" officer g |, | overseeing the surveillance operation against the Cubans? | = 2 Mr. Shaw. I sertainly am. = S 13 Mr. Goldsmith. So Mr. Zambernardi was not working under | a é a Mr. Shaw. I did not consider him working under me, at | S 5 14 that time. Later on, when he was replaced and I am not sure We whether Dave Phillips was there or not, I did move into this 5 “is operation. I am trying to think of the cryptonym for the | operation. I cannot. recall. And the chap who then handled it was Zambernardi's no VT STRELT, ws a _— a ~~ on replacement, I think his name was Humphrey. That was the tae 1! It ! Pins! 4 2 . H & pa? 22 | Surname. Lou Humphrey, I think. I am not sure. : a Mr. Goldsmith. What was the purpose of the photo~surveil- & 4g | lance operation? 4 i ae ‘| I i | t i Ww in Mr. Shaw. Primarily to identify people in touch with the i SECRET ALSESSON REPORTING COMPANY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 39
SEGR ni 1-39 —y i | foreign embassy. | | Mr. Goldsmith. Would everyone's picture be taken? 1 ! 1 i \ Mr.. Shaw. No, no way. re Mr. Goldsmith. Whose picture would be taken? | Z 5 Mr. Shaw. For example, that you would normally in an | ‘ g | Spexation like this be limited by time availiable for the | 5 7 | photographer. “You would be limited by daylight. You would : & 5 | not photograph a milkman, or a mailman or somebody who would ! : ) | be there repeatedly. You would not photograph a staffer of : : He | the Embassy if once you knew who he was, unless he was walker | Zo deh somebody. a i | 7) | You would not photograph a regular visitor to the Embassy, \ | | if you knew who he was. Mr. Goldsmith. Would you photograph all foreigners? ve Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would have to say the answer REPORTERS BULLER ONG, iis no. I never photographed any of them. Do you mean would 3 | J v jen foreigners be photographed? I would say, given the : 13 jpimieations that I have enumerated, namely how long a person - jean sit there and watch, and they have to take a break now | ¢ and then, daylight, Sundays «. they probably did not photograph. i ; ‘a Los a : 21 because there is little activity. I am sure there were consider- e pa 23 jable down periods in this sort of operation. No, I would say all foreigners were not photographed. i ! & a4 \Ideally, you would like to have a picture of anybody who went 23 iin and out of there, surely. i a ALDESSON RESCATNG SoMa aR RW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 40
SEORE: 1-40 Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that. > My question is, while surveillance base was in operation, | would a primary purpose of it be to take pictures of foreigners? ow re Mr. Shaw. ...:. Yes. That would have been a primary | | | = 3 | purpose. Not necessarily foreigners, but people you do not. | nN { i “ 3 | recognize. Foreigners or Mexicans; Mexicans are foreigners ¢ 7 it us, of course. | 5S 3 1 Another thing they did, by the way, was they tried to | = ~ 1 jo i photograph the. license plates of automobiles that came to these! < | embassies | = | ° 2 1 Mr. Goldsmith. During what hours were these:photo bases S :, | in operation? : | ; | soy : & = 13 | Mr. Shaw. I do not.know. I would say most likely during 3 | "2 ta | business hours and proper daylight. conditions, when the ts ; | = = 4s | photographer was available to do the job. | 5 1 = i | = is | Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read back that answer? ‘ 7 | The Reporter: “Question: "During what hours were these é 1g [photo ‘bases in operation?" | 4 | , . . = 19 | Answer: "I do not know. I would say most likely during |; = i { =e 349 business hours andl proper daylight conditions, when the j 31 |photographer was available to do the job." 7 : ona L- Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, when would Ft As “uO nr ray / 23 iphotographers have been available to do the job? _ t Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I was not involved in these ed * 25 ,operations ;” I used to see quite a bit of coverage. i ee NW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 41
~m se w a P = 5 a, 1 a P “ re} a ™~™ ' = hs 7 Me a 3 —_ . . *s 9 a = 5 = 1 aA Lo > . <3 = = = 6 nn = £ 3 S = ig > ma IF 3 = 13) x i} t gad n = 1 = 13 ~ ~ e aa s 29 ~ ® Be Se ~' elit) as ~ és HW 50955 DocId: 1-41 ‘Mr. Goldsmith. What were your primary responsibilities | when you were down there? You were not involved in the photo- surveillance Operation; you were not involved -- excuse me for interrupting you. Mr. Shaw. Go ahead ° Mr. Goldsmith. You were not involved in the choto~ surveillance. operation and you were not involved in the wire tap operation, so,’ MY question is, what was your primary emer ance ees * pete Mr. Shaw. ee responsibility was to try to | effect penetrations of the Cuban government. I spent a good bit of time with Cubans of the non-Castro persuasion, attempt- | ing to identify Cubans of the Castro persuasion that we might 1 gO after. By "go after," I mean attempt to recruit. I spent a lot of time collecting information from the | Cuban asset on the outside.to process into the intelligence | reports on what was happening in Cuba. We had a eyatell set- Te in Mexico city under an agent | called AMSALE who was the representative of the: exile commun- |e He would arrange to meet, hep, debrief, Cubans who were | arriving constantly from Cuba on the way to the United States or to Mexico or to somewhere else in the world, people who. were exiting Cuba. Mexico did not break relations with Cuba as did the other n=Rsom sniedihts ae 32277214 Page 42
w > a] GN i] a ~ a = NN c N — ~ Ss ¢ ™~ “SS a = i 3 ! & \ g { - i; = i 2) "i < 3 19 | £4 . ! z =. 13 s = Pe i z ei pe 15 it Ds = 7 > . . | n 17 4 -. | ‘ Be i = |8 | a | = t = 9 | > 4 } e 39 | °. 4 i ‘ | | eal sl “ed a a iN : i 23! | Ww Cay ~— > | Mexico did not do it. jihad one of the most productive operations there in Mexico City regarding information on what was going on in Cuba. ‘attempted PELOr to my arrival, in which ‘the man who: aowld — about it, if it had been attempted, would be “= Teresa Proenzay - had formerly sexved in Mexico City who was very interested ~ 4; |in Teresa Proenza. That. officer's name. was[_——~Sd yoo HW 50955 Docla: 33277214 Page 43 “Mr. Goldsmith. Did. you ever try to recruit Eusbio Ascue? ~ Mrs Shaw. I know we had an officer in Washington who Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he is. | countries of the Hemi sphere, The OAS recommended that; | So, when the refugee flow dried up in Florida, we probably ! j | | | | \ I spent a lot of time with AMSAIL on that. | | Mr. Shaw.- His name is Eusbio Ascue. Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. a Mr. Shaw. A-s-c-u-e. Fist name, E-u-s-b-i-o. I did not try to recruit Ascue. That may have been | Mr. Goldsmith. What about. Teresa Proenza? Mr. Shaw. No, I never made. any attempt to recruit Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if anyone ever did? Mr. Goldsmith. Is he still with the Adency? Mr. Goldsmith. What about Guillermo Ruiz? Mc. Shaw. That does not even ring a bell. Ruiz is a _ SECRET ALDSERSON REPORTING coun ABE
wa: 9 an ro in a} CRET 1-43 “2 > very common Spanish name. Do you want to tell me who he is | or if: you have anything onihim? Maybe it might ring a*bell. | | Mr. Goldsmith. Apparently, Mr. Ruiz was a Cuban intelli- | gence officer at the Embassy, Cuban Embassy. os eer 5 | Mr. Shaw. I do not recall him there when I was there. a4 : ‘Mr. Goldsmith. What did you say that Mr. [ : 7 | responsibilities were, if. you said? : S if Mr. Shaw. I did not say. I used his name -- he was : + | another officer, like I was, in Cuban operations. : = 19 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether he had anything to | : 1 lao with the photo operation.. | = 2 Mr. Shaw. I. do not know. He may HAVE I do not know. | | & 5 12 | I do not think: he" did. He may. have.. | 2 14 i Mr. Goldsmith. After your arrival in Mexico City, did | : 1s | anyone attempt 6 wecmnit Ascue? | = HH 2 ls Mr. Shaw. As far as I know,. there was no attempt made | i 7 |to re recruit Ascue after my arrival. My memory could be playing 2 18 | tricks on me. I know I never went after him. | ia { , : | (A brief recess was taken.) ~ | € 26 : _ Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to. get into the number of - | ae | | people who were in Cuban Operations in October of '63, September, Fe eq? 22) HOctober of '63. Could you tell me again how many? Mr. Shaw. If you could show me a list of the people at [the American Embassy at that time, I think I could pretty _ quickly, in the. ‘station -- if you have such a list, I probably | ee SECRET EH oF < SERSON c> NG ome cag HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 44 ALSERSON REPORTING COMPS ~ as » re
SECRET we one ; i \could very quickly identify those that had some connection ! = 4 |with Cuban Ops. | 3 | . Mr. Goldsmith. The Agency has not given us that list e 4 [today to. have for this purpose. 7 Mr: Shaw. Do you have one lying around? Bs | Mr. Goldsmith. No. | S 7 So far, according to my recollection of appearances, z 3 |we have Mr. Phillips, yourself anal sd J H ‘ : : Mr. Shaw.. When t arrived there,[ ~~ yould have a i yPeen there.. He would have been gonesby that times: -. ; John’:Zambernardi would have been involved in the technical { if UASHLEGTON , 1 Jops. 13 | I am not sure whether Peggy Magret was there or not. Mr. Goldsmith. How many case officers were there?in REPALTELS BUCLDENG, n 1s " V ! Mr. Shaw. Probably.just three, three or four, I am not a 13 Mr. Goldsmith. There were three case officers,probably | EO | | | = 19 | four? ! = 29 - Mr. Shaw. At. least.three, yes. Dave and Ray and myself. | a1 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Was thereaatfourth? cre 1 H Ont . . € sae 2 i Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I cannot recall, offhand, who ~ , 22 lelse was there. | Wait. a minute. [was there, as a researcher -- | 25 what was it called? Research analyst. SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 45 LOERSON REPORTING COMPANY,
G3 rei EGE Mr. Goldsmith. I am interested now only in case officers. 3 weEe a 1-45 i i i & _ I.do:shave atlist»here,; réferred:-to-as CIAr169-70, which has’a list of Agency employees. Would you please examine that | @ : list? i (Pause) eo if = 5 4 5 rT Mr. Shaw. Okay. 4 w ro] | . } Ps 7 } Pernape there would have been myself, [ Dave oo : | x 3 +Phillips and” [ e 2 ns i ; gti Mr. Goldsmith. Was {a case officer? | a | ~ | Mr. Shaw. [was not. considered -- yes, I guess | she was a case officer. I do not know what cases she handled. i i || She did more of what we call INTEL analyst work. She had 13 : officer rank, I believe. I believe she was a GS- -9 or -1l or a | HASHTHGTON , ora | something. I do not remember. i 5 i } . But Peggy; the girl I mentioned awhile ago, was not there REVORTERS BULLDING, juntil 1965. That was. about it. Ws, s 4 ; The ranking would have been David Phillips, myself, < i = 19 fH Mr. Goldsmith. How did you divide up your responsibilities? € 29 \. Mr. Shaw. HE me interject. Jack Stewart was there, but | & “ay in i “Mre Goldsmith. Fine. 23: How did you four divide up your responsibilities? a 28 4 Mr. Shaw. We were given certain agents to handle and we | | handled those agents, and Dave Phillips would decide what Boe, ; ALOESSON RE Lecpetckem COMP SAY, HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 46° ieee ~ e
e A 4 “ 7 3 a s ~ 1’ a P “ 8 ~ ~N a: 7 -— > s 3 e ~ ra} 9 [—} =  & = \ ~ is = rt - ba PA = 14 ie 4 @ :: = 4/2 pend = = ta n = IS = a = 1é > “47 Fe 13 td an = {9 > co s 29 a HW 50955 DoclId: ran . : ; "| PRane with his agents. | { | 7 > | other activities he would pass around. I notice -- Mr. Goldsmith. Whichswere those other activities? would -- an ad hoc requirement; ,or something like that, he | | . Mr. Shaw. Anything that might come to light. that Dave = ask any of us to help out, or somebody else might ask us to do something. I went out and helped surveil’a meeting I : . ns a time for one of these quys down here. It had nothing to do with Cuban Ops. : Mr. Goldsmith. What procedures did the four of you | establish for reviewing photographs? | Mr. Shaw. The only procedure that was established was i the photographs and show them to — agent, personnel, | who might be in a position to identify the persons in the | photographs. | | Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of you | identify all the photographs in the Cuban Operation Branch? Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Mr. Goldsmith... Was there a system to this? Mr. Shaw. If there was, I did not set it up. When I got | photographs, I wuld show them to LITAMIL-9 and have him tell me who they were and I would write a contact: — and EE | -it to my Chief, who was Dave Phillips. I would assume that[ ——sésd probably did the same Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, unless there was a system for SECRET SRSON REPORTH NS CoOMeAMY 32277214 Page 47 — ALS | | |
ow a w 2 g s ~ N t a 5 wi ro ~ g ci e a 7 ~ = 3 ~ - ee © Y a = :9 ¢ = SG = tI 2 =z 43 = Zz ia 2 is od i 1s > a \7 Gz = 18 Pa n =. =. ¢ a Ss qa HW 50955 iy dos DoclId: ~* SECRET ae 1-47 ; reviewing the photographs, you had no way of knowing that ij all of the photographs were being reviewed by you and other where \ . | specific officer. 42277214 ’ Mr. Shaw. Mr. Mr. Shaw. from the | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw. here -- Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. ‘Shaw. Mr. Shaw.. Mr. Mr. Shaw. Page 46 Goldsmith. I had no | i| | Cuban Operations case officers? | = Mr. Goldsmith. You were being reviewed? way of knowing. I was seeing all the photographs, that is true. I assumed I did. had no way of knowing that? . Not unless I would have gone to pick them up man who téok them and developed them, which I did not With regard to the transcripts, did you | | | | have any procedure for insuring that aileof the transcripts Did I have a procedure? No. The station | quite often routed them. I do not | | i : poets transcripts to the various officers. Winn Scott I notice you had a transcript some- We will look at the transcripts later on. Winn Scott quite often routed those to a Were all of the transcripts pertaining to | Cuban’ operations that were sent to the station reviewed by at least one of the Cuban operations case officers? know. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Scott a very demanding man? What do you mean by "demanding"? LSERSO _ SEGRET PEPORTING COMPAN ot
20024 (202) S54-2345 O.C. VASHLUGTON , SoU. REPORTERS BUTEDEHG, ana Vr STRELT, HW 50955 DocId: tw “ta ap o) wo SS soc es ee eee ee ° SECRET 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Did he expect his employees to work hard 1-48 , i and to perform thorough, competent work? Mr. Shaw. I assume he did. He never said so in so many | words, . - : | It was my understanding that until he was remarried he | worked long hours in the Embassy, before I got there. sometime -_ had people in there at. 9:00 o'clock at night. Mr. Goldsmith. Compared to other station chiefs that | | | you had worked under, was he more demanding or less? | Mr. Shaw.. 1 would not say he was any nore. “Be expected : work out of his people and got it. | Mr.. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say —— the Mexico City | station had one of the biggest telephone.’ surveillance opera- | tions in existence? Mr. Shaw. Certainly in Latin America. Mr. Goldsmith. Any CIA station? Mr. Shaw. I don't*®know about any CIA station. Certainly in Latin America. It ate up a lot of man hours. Mr. Goldsmith. In light of the fact that Mr. Scott apparently was a demanding Man and that you had one of the largest surveillance operations in effect in Latin America, ‘your testimony today is chat you. do not. know whether the Cuban operations case officers reviewed all of the transcripts? Mr. Shaw. I do not.think that. the prefacing was necessary. The latter part of that, in which you asked me if I am aware f SECRET 92277214 Page 49 ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY,
SECR oT | L«49 . | that all of the transcripts of the Cuban Ops were examined “7 ~° by the Cuban Ops section, I would have to, again, say I do ~m “Discussion off the record.) rts 1 know. H 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. We just went off the record for a coment S , | because Mr. Shaw had a question about where his car was parked = 7 | aoa whether there would be any problem about that, and I : , | indicates that I aia not think there would be a problem. ; | Mr. Shaw, do you recall who delivered the. photographs 3 tg ij t© the station, the tape from the survéillance openatbon? ‘Mr. Shaw. It was my understanding that the technician picked them up. Bob gauibarnendé would have picked them up from the agent. - - You are talking af the uve Embassy now? - Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, and consulate. REPORTERS HUCLDENG, GASULHGTON, to Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that. he would have S.l. | picked them up from the agent who took the photographs. The E | agent who took the shotographs developed them, printed them, : jana turned. the prints: over to Mr. Zambernardi. That is the way E29 jt thine it worked. | a Mr. Goldsmith. How would you actually get to review the ! photographs? Who would bring them to you? Mr. Shaw. Usually I do not remember who brought them to . i “ zz {me. I have the impression it. may have been[ ss but { q | SECRET NW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 50 BERSCN RESCRTING COMeRILY I could be. wrong: Maybe Bob brought them to me. I do not know.
1-50 , | i But I would get a batch of photographs to go through. = ] i “ Mry Goldsmith. Who had reporting responsibility for ‘ passing along the information that had been obtained from the das | photographs and the transcripts? | j | | i ' 1 = si Mr. Shaw. There was little reporting that came out of z , | the photographs. Usually, it- yielded what we called operational - § a information. rather than intelligence information, to enable us & | to develop a better understanding of who was in the area, of | : 7 who was in the Cuban Embassy, and what they were up to. | : 10 As far as reporting intelligence that came from those, ! : 1] it probably was reported by the reports section of the atemey | s 2 | Next to Winn Scott's office was the CA Chief's office and, : \ i & = 17 i next to that,-- I'm getting in the new embassy now. I don _— i 2 ota i not remember where the report section was in the old embassy. ‘i 1 = gl We had reports officers who actually repaired most of the’ z f = is | reports from raw reports, if you will, reported by. the case ~ HI i a i | officers. - :! i i oy a a - Again, I would like to point out that these photographs = i = a yielded very!1little reportable intelligence. It was mostly = 29 i operational intelligence. : 1 ; Mr. Goldsmith. Understood. ge " a ae ¢ pa 728 Who was George Monroe? 22 i Mr. Shaw.[—~—S—S—S—S—S—édiwas: a former agent, Special. Agent, e 24 of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.who retired or resigned, j ; 23 : I do not know how he left the Bureau, and worked in Mexico SECRET ALDERSOM REFORTING COMES HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 51
‘ Se wi ‘3 = Agd, 34 :S ‘ey 83 RE 1-51 ad | City on the outside, aga non-official cover asset for Winn e 2 | scott. Ann Goodpasture, I believe, had. a lot of contact with | -I very seldom sawl sd I had nothing| ee ; to do with him operationally. | be 2 5 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what his responsibilities | i | s 6 were? : 7 Mr. Shaw. I believe his responsibilities had to do with | 3 3 dealings with the Mexican government, liaison veaponeibilities.| ‘ $ I think George was used by Winn because George had good contacts 5 te in the Ministry of Interior, which. would have been sort of the | : 1 | equivalent of the Department of Justice here and out of that | 5 2 | dinietsy came, for example, the man who became President of | a = i3 | Mexico. He was the station asdetauconbacts not agent. | 2 4 Mr. Goldsmith. You mentioned. earlier,. Mr. ——— E ig IC] is that correct? : z ts | Mr. Shaw. ‘Yes. : ‘A 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know. whyL___————sdnad san inter | a i3 : est in’ Eusbio Ascue? ; ! : 19 | Mr. Shaw. No, I do not. believe it was. I think it was ! = 20 | Teresa Proenza. I do not think he had any interest in. Ascue. | came Tl Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who had the | e pay 2 interest in Ascue? | . | 234 Mr.’ Shaws I do not know. I said if it had been before Ww da i the ball down there and was responsible for that sort of | | € 24 | my arrival, I would suspect it was [dd He was carrying 1 i | peo aed HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 52
CH gs we aL, bis Adinass 1=52 | activity. I do not know that he did, but if it happened in, | = 4 | say, late , 22 or somewhere in there, it probably would have il ao. : been Tom who would have done that. ee 4 | Mr. Goldsmith. What was [ Jposition at the he did, to recruit Teresa Proenza? BUSLDING Mr. Shaw. .I am not sure that he ever tried to recruit. I am merely saying that he had a lot of interest. sI do not : ass | a ‘| Mr. Shaw. He was not at the Embassy then. He was at | FS + | the Embassy back in 1965. I. do not know, for a number. of ° years % 7 At that time, Charlie hdd gone back to Headquarters and he | S : | , | was involved in Cuban operations from Headquaxters,. the details : ro | of which were not»made known to me. Whether they were made | 5 : | known to Winn Scott or Dave Phillips or others, I do not know. | 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. When would he have made an effort, if | : i | : ‘think anybody ever tried to recruit her. If they did} they REPORTING | rv V ' were wasting their time.. : 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. Why were they wasting their time? pa | | a | = 194 My. Shaw. She was a pretty tough nut. -I never saw -- if; = . 22 | I canwremember -- I do not. remember any vulnerability of yo. ; ~~. 7! | Teresa Proenza. Or e gal Jf 39 | Mr. Goldsmith. What was the nature of mr.[ 23:1 interest in her? i i « 24 Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Some Cuban operational interest, 73 : maybe trying to get some information from her through a third ‘ | acaABry wh RE | yo MPAALY NW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 53 ,
t i. woes RY hati. i~53 7 party. I have no idea. hey "Mr, Goldsmith. When did he spend time in Mexico City that \ | he would have had an opportunity? . Mr. Shaw. He visited Mexico City quite often. de i Mr.. Goldsmith. Even though he was not stationed down | | | wo | = = | a 5 | | there, he visited often? | | i a oan ! : Z ‘ ; < 7 | Mr. Shaw. That is correct. He madé trips in and out of | S # textes City. | 3 9 i Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Teresa Proenza's position . i ra iH 2 19 | Was at the Cuban Embassy or Consulate? | S | g | Mrs Shaw. I think by that time she was out of the Embassy, = 2 | = 3 [was she not? I do not remember. She left. cS | = Eo | Teresa Proenza was a Mexican. She was not a Cuban. And ! = i = = a iT am under the impression that by the time I got there, Oa ! =. ! | eS ; [Teresa had left the Embassy. I may be wrong. I think that = 6 [she was involved in cultural activities. a 1; Mr. Goldsmith. Do:you know whether Mexican intelligence B 3 would have had any penetration agents at the Cuban Embassy or | = ; i = 19 | consulate? i e 30 | Mr. Shaw. I think they would have tried. I do not know |; - a a ‘ : \ ; H aI i| how effective Mexican intelligence was. I did not deal with | Dr ~ e It would be assumed that they made every attempt, the | i ih . Gas 22 iit. if N\, t ‘ | i ‘t "I HI 23 ' from the Cuban Embassy. I think it highly unlikely that the | @ 24 | Cubans were gradually removing Mexicans from their employee, ; : SEGRE ET ALDERSON REDORTIN COMPANY HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 54
1-54 4 ' ; | | | Mexican, government, given its position, was the only government’ { j ! \ wo | in the Western Hemisphere which maintained relations with | Cuba, would have been ~-- it would have been highly unlikely for -da On the other hand, I think it would have been likely, if 3 | - them to have tried to pitch a Cuban national. and would have been expected of them, to have tried to find on. 20024 (202) S$54-2345 ™N { é ‘ from any Mexican working in the Cuban Embassy what was going e) What this comes down to, of course, is gardenérs. and secretaries... Mr. Goldsmith. Why do you make that distinction between WASHTMGTON, D.C, a -Cuban national and a Mexican? Mr. Shaw. I make that distinction because of the flap potential If the Mexicans had attempted to pitch a Cuban and - the Cuban had not accepted that pitch and had reportéd it to his superiors, the Mexican Foreign Office then would have . REPGORPERS BULEDING, - S.u had a problem ‘with the :Cuban Foreign Ministry. Mr. Goldsmith. Of course, the Mexican government was also taking a risk by being involved in the liaison operation 30 7H STREET, ‘oO or. the Agency as well. Mr. Shaw. One could assume that they had measured their : : risk, yes, certainly. There is an element of risk in every ti operation. Do not get me wrong. I do not know whether they | naa anything going or not. I would assume, just based on my i experience, that they would not have tried to pitch Cubans, | SEGRE: ALS SON tte Aa oF eral NW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 55
2 ne St x 29 SEG #33 - : bea: 1-55 | that they would have tried to exert subtle coercion on w rr Mexicans working there to report in the interest of Mexican national security on what is going on in that Embassy. Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have been in a position to know | | i tn if the Mexican government successfully penetrated the Cuban | Embassy or consulate? Me. shaw. [(]—? >See The chief of chiefs of the Mexican service or services. oo ~~ Mr. Goldsmith. Any American? | Mrs Goldsmith. Do you know whether there was. any coordina- Mr. Shaw. Not that I know of. tion between the telephone tap operations and the photo operations.‘For example, if a conversation of interest came up on the tap operation, would the people monitoring the call : . | be able to-contact through an intermediary the photo bases to warn them or indicate to them that someone is coming of interest? “a Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that such a system did ! ; not exist, and I do not believe that the quys monitoring the Joo 7TH STRET, SoU. REPORTERS BUTLDING, UASHLNGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) $54-23445 to 21 | coverage. \ O Fir 7)y 4 +4 39 ax intercept bases were made aware of photograph | However, I. would assume that a man running a technical ~m iw operation, if he heard something exciting on the line, as opposed to.a tapesseveral days later, would notify his case officer right away and then it might be possible for the case QEPRET t ALSESSON Sebi: Comey HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 56 Lay ee A rs en) ta 33 =
- NW 50955 DoclId: 2N02% (202) S$5%-2345 0, ¢, WASHTUCTON, REPORTERS BUELDING, Ww, 5; 309A 7TH STRELT, wo ro ws dae Se 1-56 officer, assuming a quick reaction capability, to crank up the people at the photo house to take pictures. This «was in the most perfect of all. worlds. Usually things did not work that way and you end up out onnthe street, in the middle of the night two days later, contacting whoever it is taking photographs. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the Mexico City station ever obtained a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr. Shaw. To my understanding, they did not. I never saw anything down there that looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever hear an allegation that Charlotte Bustos, at CIA Headquarters in Washington, found a photograph. of Oswald, or somedne she thought to be Oswald, in the Headquarters files shortly _— the sumaueicationt - Mr. Shaw. No, I have never heard such a story. Knowing Charlotte -- not knowing her well, but having known her over the years, I would assume that had she found such a thing she would have rung a big loud bell and say, hey, look what I found. - Mr. Goldsmith. With .regard:-to“the. photo..operation,.let:. us-assume. for a.moment that. you.come.across a picture of approximately what time the. picture would have been taken? Mr. Shaw. Very definitely. Mr. Goldsmith. How would you have done that? ALSERSGN REPORT ING 2 asueer 32277214 Page 57 interest. Did you have any way of determining on what day and
Sr. Betay ia gx « € 157 Mr. Shaw. The photographs were squared off and were annotated. We knew the day. We knew, usually, morning or td afternoon, a.m. or p.m. Sometimes you could judge by the ] i \ & 4 | sequence, | | z 5! Furthermore, sometimes the actual time of the person going a“ ] : : | Sg in and going out was actually annotated, if the person operating ~ | < 7 was operating manually, he would no doubt, the guy with the « a | red-checkered Hawaiian shirt went in at 10:05. He would note = | S ses in a little log. /_ é { : 2 1g I do not know whether he would note it on the photograph S g » [ox submit the log with the number keyed to thé log in the = = | Potosrarh. ‘Quite often we knew to the minute when a person : e : * 2 43 i in a photograph | came in or went out or stood in front or wetted Z 1, |by. 3 Sis] Mr. Goldsmith. I see.. g | So, to your knowledge, there were photo-production logs i. iy that could be checked? - | pa ; 1 ps . Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, such logs did exist, yes. = i i a y = || Whether the logs were kept after the information was noted on | € 39 the. photograph, on the back of the photograph or wherever it | oO = \ . i . 4 l was noted, I have:no idea. | amr rs oad t . \ ga 224 The phokographay quite often came in the form of 35 mm. 23 ;contact strip prints and then blow-ups of a number of those. I recall s- I had not thought about it all these years,. ‘but usually you knew when a guy, you certainly knew when he went _webnel ALGER RESORTING COMPARY rm> o~ NW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 58
1-58. in on Tuesday morning, the 16th of May, whatever that date i ! t i i 1 H wo was. . Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make the notations on the back of | ire the photograph or contact print as to the time? a z 3 - Mr. Shaw. In our case, I believe it was the man taking | a 6 | the photographs because he took the photographs, developed | = 7 the photographs, printed them and turned them over. | x a | Mr. Goldsmith. If he were to put the time on, he would | ns to | i . ‘ | é ry peve to go to his log and see what the time was and then make | . | a i i ~ 10 | the entry? | = ! 2 i! Mr. Shaw. Right. He probably made a little notation to | = I . = 14 | himself like I mentioned, the bright shirt or something. Then | z ; . | a = 13 i he would recognize that person in the photograph and make all = Hi} a { | = 1s | notation. | = i | = 15 i -(Pause) | 9 it “| Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that the name a 7 jee Harvey Oswald came to your attention? - p Mr. Shaw. .It would have been the evening of the day of | x | wn: , = the assassination. 5 Mr. Goldsmith. How did that:happen? , a Mr. Shaw. We listened. We had. a radio. I think it was oS ey as i? 72: one of those Zenith Trans-Oceanics in one of the Embassy offices. iS) as = Ga ay os ehh Loe oo AU a SS —eE—e—————e———————— SS Seo Soe eee I was out at an agent meeting when I heard about the ’ 4 assassination and I came back to the Embassy and went upstairs | i) dae 7 | SEgeey i; ALDESSON REPORTING COMPANY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 59
1-59 and we sat and stood around that radio and I believe it was Mr. Shaw. No. If I did, I did not pay any attention. | in Pat Johnson's office -- her name was something else in i | those days. I can't remember her married name. . | : 4 | And they said’ something about the police said it was Lee | ‘ ' | e .! : =a * | Harvey Oswald, or something. I do not remember. That was the | ' i i 4 ssn time that. it came to my attention. xf ; . S | Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you now to take a look at | S 7 j cma No. 13 which is a transcript of the conversation allegedly ~ . 8 7 || involving Oswald, a conversation taking place on 1 October '63,) a i : il - = ‘'C | Would you please read through that? | Bolly (Pause) na ij « ‘ ‘ ~ a When was the first time that you saw that transcript, if | g . ! & = (413 | you have ever seen it before? | = : | = : “| Mr. Shaw. I do not. know whether I have ever seen it or | Pa I \ "€ \§ ! not, ‘but I may’well have. I was aware that he had called the * if | Soviet Embassy, was made aware after the notoriety of the man | ” 7 was established, but I do not recall ever seeing this before | ¥ 18 i that. a l = ian Normally, I would not. i | = wis | . . : ’ : 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. Prior to the assassination, did you see | noe it | we) 49 it | | 1 1 I do not believe that it. was on a Cuban line. obj Mr. Goldsmith. No, it was not. . ! nm aw iy ta Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you. can tell who saw these things by ! etAye SEGRE SLOERSON REPORTING COMPaILY ALS Arty : | i ‘ H ' | : RW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 60
Ww se wo = 5 7 ~ ~ 1 a r wa Q a ~ . e 7 ~ / ~ a e 3 © N™ o 3 =} - 9 S = ¢ £ 1 a “ = 74 i“ 4 =. = = ta n = = tg = lwo sS = iz ic > a 17 a ’ we 2 8 - a = 13 ~ c & 29 ‘ecm vai not 4 he’ 22 / s 6 NW 50955 DoclId: EEO BeuUA 1-60 | i i t the initials up top. one, “however. | | { - -Would you please read CIA 177, which is a cable from 1 ' Mexico City station dated October 8th? | (Pause) | Mr. Shaw. Yes, this is typical where they try to identif that does not-sound like it. rise.to some of the issues that the Committee was. concerned | with. My first question is, did you have anything to do with the writing of this cable? Mr. Goldsmith. This was the famous cable that has given i HI Mr. Shaw. No; .I did not. I would not have had. Mr... Goldsmith. Do you know. how the photograph referred to in paragraph: number. two of that cable was in some way linke to Oswald? - Mr. Shaw. I would assume, my answer to your question is no. I would assume that this was an effort on the part of _ the person drafting the cable to help Headquarters identify. Lee Oswald, the man who had made the call. Mx. Goldsmith. Do-you know how she made that conclusion that the photograph reflected Oswald? Mr. Shaw. No. I do not think she did. I think she merely says that we got a guy who looks like he might be an = _SEGRET ALDERSON REFORTING COMFaMY 32277214 Page 61 somebody that was in the Embassy at the same time. Of course, | | i i " Mr. Goldsmith. There are notwritings or notations on that! : ! | | | Y | i d |
Qed a | he ie OF Gade A | | see ‘from this cable any conclusion that that is Oswald. I il 1] } | Fanner suspect they never got.a picture of Oswald. This is en one that appeared there, that looked like it could be \ | | an American. Therefore, an effort was made to help Headquarters | z 5 by saying a man who looked like he might be an American S | entered the Soviet Embassy at that time. & 7 Mr. Goldsmith. I agree with you, Mr. Shaw. Certainly, = | : jj the cable does not say that the photograph is a photograph of | : 19 joowana. At the same time, though, it gives the information | & i . | “I "| | in paragraph 1 on Oswald and the second paragraph makes™:. °- $ 9 | reference to a photograph taken of someone who appears to be | * z 49 [north American. | : ld Certainly they woulidcnot have meine to Headquarters simply | E 13 la cable indicating the existence of a photograph, so by putting té |ene photograph in paragraph 2-immediately below the information ‘4 17 Jon Oswald, although the cable does not say that the photograph | : i3 jis one of Oswald, it does in some way suggest that they are : = 19 | related. | ~ \ * i = | ‘Mr. Shaw. It suggests to me that they know an American I: \ _— 21 whe claimed to be Lee Oswald called at a certain time, and Ys | ,then they went to the photographs to see if they could find photo they found was of a man apparently 35, athletic build, eS te As J Xf 2 =) | a who looked like he might be an American, and the i i a5 about 6 feet tall, receding hair’ line and so forth; and they i : | SEGRE! 5a) DENSON aap eRTING COMme SAY NW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 62 aia hee ~
wm wa = * ~ 3 ~ 4 a , “ fe} ~ N 5 ic oe 7 ~ ~ e 3- c ™N 3 § —} = 0 S g ~ Yj ~ i a *s = »4 le 4 uw = V3 = 5 2° =. 4 xn = o4s = ie 2 = is = wn 17 2 18 fa = 19 ~ s ¢ 29 P= é ee >= iS A ~ és ~ oes 2 J) HW 50955 DocId: submitted this on the off-chance that this might have beeni.the Mr. that you Headquarters back to the Mexico City station responding to the Mr. Mr. that the contacts Mr. Mr. man who made the call. definitely says the photograph is one of Oswald. Mr. Shaw.. No, I do not see that it does at all. Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please take a look, now, at CIA 183? (Pause) Mr. Shaw. All right, I have read it. Mr. Goldsmith. -.-This is a cable,iis it not, from CIA earlier cable from the station reporting Oswald's contact? Goldsmith. The fifth paragraph of that cable requests ete ag tx Cs tet 1-62 Goldsmith. I understand your answer. I am hopeful understand that I am not. suggesting that the cable Shaw. That is what it looks like to me. I een re ES station keep Headquarters advised of any further or positive identification of Oswald? Shaw. Yes. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the station ever sent: any additional information to Headquarters concerning Oswald? Mr. Mr. Mr. 32277214 Page 63 Shaw. No, I do not, and I do not recall ever seeing % i this cable, either. ; Goldsmith. Today is possibly the finst time that you: have seen that cable? | . ! Shaw. It could well be, yes. You may have one with SE GRE. ALCERSON RESORTING COMeAIY
oh iw ry | ce L (73 ge er bay ; | my initials on it, but I doubt it. - Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA 183, there is an arrow pointédi:to the word "Henry", "Lee Henry Oswald." Adjacent to eS | j arrow it says "sic," s-i-c. 3 3 | What do you think Mr. SGoKE was intending to indicate a ‘| when he wrote "sic" next to the "Henry" in "Lee Henry Oswald"? g 2 Mr. Shaw... I would rather. suspect that he wrote this on & ; | here subsequent to the assassination when the word came out it : 5 | tmarvey Oswald" rather than "Henry Oswald" unless there is . .q | Something in here that says "Harvey." Is there any? S : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. No, there is none. | $ al . Mr. Shaw. I would imagine that is something he wrote - _ ; e 4 14 Jes later so that they would get the file in the right name. : | that would: be my guess. : ll Mr. Goldsmith. Would you now take a look at CIA No. 14. z 1s Yo may also want to take a look at CIAANo. 15 at the same r 7 | time. = : 7 (Pause) : | Would you identify the document that you just reviewed? : 20 | Mr. Shaw. What it. looks like is a ponnae LIENVOY trans- a1 |eription. I see my name up here, but I don't see anything Bees i e - By 2 that indicates that I ever saw it. It looks like Scott and 22 | i Goodpasture made checks on it. There is my name, but there lis no indication, no initial on my» part. Probably I did not ‘gee it. rd os ; re) HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 64 ALDERSON REPOR = ee vce ae cence seer rere SR lait! feY) n
z Per Sa) ae Bi ea Ctsaial) oe) ie 1-64 Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript? 2 ' Mr. Shaw. 28 September 1963 is what is listed on here. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall whether you ever saw that transcript before? 4h - : ¥ - ‘| Mr. Shaw. I do not recall. I must have seen it after- : 7 wards, because I know Sylvia Duran was a person who had dealt : : with Oswald. | s 4 : -Mr.- Goldsmith. When was the firsttime that this. trans- | S \ 3 | eript was linked to Oswald? | : 'g Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. | : i Mr. Goldsmith. Let us backstep for a moment. The | $ 2 transcript that appears at CIA No. 13 contains a notation in | sn ! , ee : 13 brackets by the transcriber that this is the same person who 7 _ it ‘ : 14 called a day or so ago. : sl Mr. Shaw.. To the Soviet Embassy. * . | 3 z 1 | _Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. | = ! Oswald also said I was there last Saturday. The trans- 300 7 STRELT, : a cript you just looked at, September 28th, was for a Saturday. Do you. recall whether anyone ever came to you and asked you whetheryvyou were aware of a contact by Oswald? Mr. Shaw. I do not recall that anybody ever came to me, and I do not think that they did. This sounds familiar. I would have heard about this after the assassination, because I remember Sylvia Duran was the person being a. Mexican citizen: t + 1 1 2- » inside the Cuban Embassy who I dealt with. . | | QtOUET HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 65 ALOERSCN EE acanh
de Jon 7TH STRALT, SW. REPORTS BUTLDING, bASUTHGTON, O.C. 20024 (202) S54-2345 en Dh ey m we roe to i) oa * ® x wd ho NW 50955 DoclId: ie Ft hy Sa Ww ie Watize 3 1-65 Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, the point I was making on the October lst transcript, it refers back to something that happened a day or two earlier, possibly Saturday, and I wondered if Herb Minnell, when they were discussing this, came to you to discuss this matter? Mr. Shaw. I do not believe they did. . Barbara probably would have processed this, but I do not recall that anybody ever came to. me about it. Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please now take a look Fine. at CIA Nos. 16, 17, 18,:19 and 20? (Pause) Mr. Shaw. Here you have one that I saw. Those are my initials -- No. 19. I did not see this one. Let me see what-we have got here. (Pause) — I have read it. Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, you have read through CIA document No. 22. Mr. Shaw. Yes, I have not read them carefully, but I “have looked them over. Mr. Goldsmith. Taking a look at CIA No. 16, could you identify that document? Mr. Shaw. This is a LIENVOY transcript, Mr. Goldsmith. Is it a summary or a verbatim transcript? Mr. Shaw. It is a summary.
Mr. 1-66 Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript? Shaw. According to the thing in the margin, 27 i a | September '63, 1963. This is really tha same darned thing © 4 : here. 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. The same as the transcript that appears . P on CIA No. .17? | Pa Jit : 5 "| Mr. Shaw. It appears. to be; : - Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately what time was this phone 5 | ca received? | : 0 ' Mr. Stiaw. It looks like something put on by a "Five = in| minutes after 4:00 in. the afternoon.” MF means a woman -- $ 2 | is that MF? | a z 5 Mr. Goldsmith. Do--not worry about that. Zou | When. was the first time you sawtbiie transcript? 2 i E is | Mr. Shaw. I do not remember... is | Mr. Goldsmith. pia you seé it before the assassination? i in| Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. : 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Yournname appears in the right-hand : 12 | corner. é 20 | Mr. Shaw. My name appears there. However, it is not xcem.' | crossed out. If you turn over a conple of pages you will see fe 22 4 my initials on another thing.which deals with the same period. Mr. nN ou wo faa i Goldsmith. I will do that in a minute. Do you know whether this transcript was linked to Oswald prior to the assassination? SEORET NW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 67 ALOERSON REPORTING COMAaNY
De 5 t: ar Be | Os 1-67 Mr. Shaw. I do not know whether it was or not. I { & 3 gather it was not. A i ow Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that? $= Mr. Shaw. It does not say. There is no mark on it, 2 7 Oswald on here anywhere. : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. What are these numbers on the bottom g | right-hand =- z a} Mr. Shaw. That.is the file number. “ | Mr. Goldsmith. What file would that be? : tg : Mr. Shaw. That. says subject file. 50-8-10-6. I do not : 1) [snow off-hand what that is. I think the 50 stands for 2. 2 | Mexico. 8-10-6 would be a subject file. & 3 17 Probably; possibly somephace where they put..anformation z fon people. where they are trying to el to the Soviet Union. = 1§ ie do not know; that is a guess.. Mr. Goldsmith. Let's take a look at CIA No. 19. Mr. Shaw. Okay. CIA No. 19, 27 September, that looks , SLU. like my initial. It is very similar. s —] Mr. Goldsmith. In the upper right-hand corner? Mr. Shaw. I cannot imagine anyone else putting it there. 300 Tru STRENT & ~o Mr. Goldsmith. This is the conversation that took place e fe q2 slater in the day, is that correct? | Mr. Shaw. 27 September 63, right. | Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that this conversation 1 23 took place sometime around 4:26 in the afternoon, according to COMPANY NW 50955 Docta:32277214 Page 66
we aaa iS dees 1-68 Mr. Shaw. There is an: indication there. w i | the documents? { | Mx. Goldsmith! When did this document first come to yous’ attention? : g | Mr. Shaw. I havevno idea, because there is no date up : é 6 | there. I do not know when it was circulatéed:or anything. | E 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you iow when” Le was ‘earet linked to : & 3 : Oswald? | J $ | Mr. Shae I do not. | : 1g Mr. Goldsmith. pial t—“‘séOCOCOCC*CiEVere come to | : i | you to discuss this transcript or conversation with you in | e: ia | reference to the transcript. dated October lst? | = | : 13 Mr. Shaw. Not that I remember. . | z ta | Mr.. Goldsmith. At the bottom of CIA No. 19, it says : E 13 : copy oawald P-file. Essentially, do you know when that nota- | : 18 tion was put on? : ‘ in| Mr; Shaw. I do not know. ! : 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Turning back to CIA-177, there is a | : 19 | notation on the left-hand side of the page. It says, D:200-5-41. S 20 | Do you know what that would refer to? i | SE at: Mr. Shaw. I have no idea what the D stands for. The ! Sa ae i a ge 22 200-5-41 sounds like a file number. \ ' | maybe that ‘would be -- if it is in the 50 series, it would be : 23 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know for what? e a4 Mr. Shaw. No, I.do not, but I would assume, again, that es aa ‘{ Bo ALGERSON vie NG Foes HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 69
aa ‘ wo - “ nN 1 a ‘i wa fo} n 1 & 7 i ~ | ro 3 : S H Se i N 4 { . 3s) y y | a t 2 104 S HI e | a i = 15 2 be il g. | =. | = is: = i > it = 13 é i at . i = ra Fo i3 wa a 1 ~ ¢ S 29 val rm aw > ee a ~ da a Mexico City file. Mr. Goldsmith. Mr.. Shaw. That is a Headquarters file number. 22 238 ty gies Bas ws 3 4 Ww in Wah 3 1-69 But it may be a Headquarters -- is this a Mexico City document, or a Headquarters document? This is a Headquarters document. idea what the D stands for. It does not look right. Mr. Goldsmith. I have asked this question before, but | for the record and purposes of clarification, I would like to | ask you again, to your knowledge, after the Mexico City sta- tion received:the cable from Headquarters dated October 10th or llth, did: the: Mexico City Station ever send any additional information concerning Oswald to Headquarters? Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, they did not, but I would have no way of knowing. Mr. Goldsmith. this? Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr Shaw. No. Goldsmith. Shaw. No. Goldsmith. Goldsmith. Did you ever speak tof  _————sédd about [LT Dave Phillips? Shaw. No. - What, if anything, do you know about the arrest of Sylvia Duran shortly after the assassination? Mr. Shaw. I remember that Sylvia Duran was arrested. I do not know why. do not. remember. HW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 70 I could have suggested that myself, but I ATARI E Segeel ALOESSON REPORTING COMPANY I have no
Dt ma 4 : weiia 3 1-70 Po x Ww as rd i I do remember sending a message to Winn Scott suggesting nw _ Er i, & i . | that, right after the assassination, that the Mexicans put in a ring of guards aruund the Cuban Embassy and question everybody going in and out. I remember that idea coming out of my a " wa ow head. dan "Inknow that Sylvia Duran was arrested... She was fair game ey not have. any Cuban diplomatic immunity. 2002" €202) $5%-23945 ™~ Os) I would have thought it would have been a good idea to i because she was a Mexican national and the Cubans -- she did. | “4 | | question here very closely. As to whether I said that she | : He i} | should be arrested or I had anything to do with that, I do | . | : , i; | not know. I was perfectly capable of making such a suggestion “Mr. Goldsmith.. Do you know why Headquarters was upset about that arrest? Mr. Shaw. I have no idea... tn $7 REPORTERS BULLDING, WASHINGTON, 0.C. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know why Headquarters did not want { | | | | A '; | any Americans to confront her or to interview her? - ! a 13 | Mr. Shaw. No. a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that | é 20 | Oswald may have been an agent of the. KGB? | a Mr. Shaw. I have no reason to believe it. | Mr. Goldsmith. How about an agent, asset or source of ed JX ' wo the CIA? Mr. Shaw. I would: think that. that would be completely 23 |} out of the question. i 4 "% § 8 i Sree js ; AD che 229 3S ea — : ALSERSON REPORTING COME ASLY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 71
is ‘“ = ee z 52,5 i Bua VAY Ww & Be. 1-71 > | Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of the record, could you | oxptain why you think that would be out of the question? ow | Mr. Shaw. Because I thihk it would have come to light ae immediately had he had any CIA connections. {on the record somewhere. | | a Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the record could have | i been erased or*purged in some way? Mr. Shaw. I seriously doubt it. | i . 34 Mr. Goldsmith. In what manner? | ' | i \ | Mr. Shaw. Somebody would have revealed this fact. | . | "| . Mr. Goldsmith. Had he been an agent of the CIA, asset or | 3 j omProves, is it possible that someone would have been able to | 3 | cover that fact up? | 7 Mr. Shaw. I do not think anyone could have covered up. | Ht Mr. Goldsmith. Why not? | { t : 12 | Mr. Shaw. Had he been an agent, then it would have been , ' | | | ! 7 i Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give a reason? i i ; oan Mr. Shaw. Just my belief in the integrity of the organizar ia | | | . 2 | 19 tion. It stands on that, and the people in it. : 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. Does the Agency, to your knowledge, have | | a ; | , | | . 21 vany safequards to prevent records from being erased or purged? © pa 22 Mr. Shaw. Nowadays, of course, we have laws which say i : | 23 you can't destroy material. I would say that the safeguards | i i @ 24 jagain come back to the basic integrity of the people in the 25 ‘organization. When you lose a President, you do not mess i. SiGRe! ALOERSON REFSORTING COMPANY HW 50955 DoclId:32277214 Page 72
Rey gags wy Noy Sup OS oe d i "3 wm fFi yt : 7 he ty w% as L“72 around, and I think everybody would have turned over every nw possible stone to find out anything they could that would be p—] sets casita 3 | useful in determining the responsibility for that assassina-~ 4 | tion. | \ | : I know I would have. I was a Kennedy man, and I imagine | 7 | there were a lot of us in the outfit who identified very | g { closely with the president. | 5S Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever know anybody by the name of | ~ ui 7 | Maurice Bishop? | a i : ! =. re Mr. Shaw. No. | 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether David Phillips, or | anyon else, ever used the name Maurice Bishop as an eperational e = 13 | alias of some kind? | z ul Mr.. Shaw. I am not aware that they did, but I would : 5 | have to answer your question no. Dave Phillips does not seem | : 1s | Like a Maurice type, somehow. : = Hi . ! 4 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did Headquarters ever criticize the | 5 3 [teste City station in any way for its handling of the Oswald 7 = : 9 | matter prior to the assassination? | 5 *| . Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. : meet Mr. Goldsmith. For that matter, after the. assassination? | Sty ’ Mr. Shaw. Not that I am aware of. I must add that crititism would have been conveyed to the Chief of Station Sem | A TAS ih os | ™ ) zathex than to the case officers. \ Mr. Goldsmith. When Oswald returned to the United: states | i : i} en = alts ALDERSON REFCRTING COMPSMY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 73
Ww ww be ww = s Pel ~ N it 5 a wu io} a ~ = 7 _— S 3 iJ ~ 3g? e Zs “10 S Zz. Ti = ' a = &2 . Zz os ee “Sw oE 1S 2 = 16 > nN = ta an = 19 = 3 e 2 . ati Sa 2 fa? 2 22 ere / HW 50955 DocId: ty aie on cans | A . xe eT 1-73 from the ‘Soviet Union, would it have»been standard operating procedure for the Agency to have interviewed him or debriefed i him in some way? Mr. Shaw. No. I think that it would have been more likely for the FBI to interview him. i Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that? | Mr. Shaw. Because he was an American citizen in the | United States. That was the FBI's territory. | Mr.=Goldsmith. Even chaugls Oswald worked for several years -- not. for several years, but for: sometime a ina | radio. factory while he was in Russia? Mr. Shaw. I was not aware that. he worked in a radio | factory, but the fact that he had been in the Soviet Union, | the fact that he had been in the ondted States Marine Corps, would indicate to me that if he had been interviewed, he would have been interviewed by the FBI. | Mr. Goldsmith. Does nit the Agency have a Domestic | Contacts Division, en which customarily interviews | people who. have been abroad in Communist countries? | | Mr. Shaw. The Agency has the Domestic Contacts Division. : It used to be called 0/G Contacts. I never worked with those people. It is my understanding that what they do is routinely | | | debrief, if the person is willing, businessmen -- in the old | . | days, tourists -- who had visited the Soviet Union, or to | StUKe ALSERSON REPORTING COMPATLY 32277214 Page 74
Ry Ss Th ts 4 3) od we 2D a basis: 1-74 debrief a man who might have other involvement inthe Soviets > an | would not, I believe, have fallen within the purview of the 0/O Contacts Branch. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any knowledge of the opera- > —— F 7 tional activity of the CI/SIG Branch of the CIA? : 7 Mr. Shaw. No. I do not know what SIG means. I have g | never heard of CI/siG. s at cI is Counterintelligence. staff. I don't know what SIG ‘ Fae a 1 ° z 19 | oni Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I would like to thank you for 7: | your testimony today. I especially would like to thank you Ey 12 | for spending all of this time with. us. I know that you have & 2 2 | been here since approximately 3:00 o'clock or so and it is zo | now about 7:30. You have been very patient. ; sl Customarily, whenever a witness testifies before the : 1s | committee, the witness is given ‘an opportunity to make a | ‘ in| statement for the record. This is not a hearing, but I would : ia | like to give vem the same opportunity, if you would like to : | take advantage of it. é = Mr. Shaw. ‘Well, I might take advantage of it. I had not a -" Phougoe about it: until you mentioned it, but aeons ins back { At 13 ®) EE qs Si dy | t9 what I said a little while ago, I. do believe that our organization was made up of, like Bill Colby has on the cover | e 24 | of his book over there on the next table, of honorable men, and I do not think that anyone in the organization would have : BLS tORE 1 RSON eek NG come are) MY i HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 75
ae BS. tw aeEYS 3 if wa ro) ee cr wee, Misa: | 1-75 | allowed any cover-up or any destruction of evidence which might | en | ae | shed some light onthe assassination of President Kennedy. | | eee ee nr tt a ne te a a I might add a little vignette. We had what it called a | a | | Libra :Pecima.. which is a book that the people signed when : : 5 | they come to a funeral or something. You may have run into 2 s | something, Like this in the states,: when you go in and sign | : 7s at the funeral parlor that you were there or something. : a express your regrets -- :pecima, in Spanish, means regrets J $ | ox sorrow. = o | We had a book down in the lobby of the Embassy building : 7 and when I came out one day shortly after the assassination 3 12 bgomeboay in the crowd yelled Spanish for Bob, and I went over S i © : 2 and: ,it .. »# was the Governor of the State of Sonora, which is 2 ea big state up in northwestern Mexico. I had known him some : | years earlier. He was the:son of the General who was the | = is | outatanding military leader of the Mexican Revolution from : : | we 1913 to about 1920. ! : 1 | His father had been President of Mexicol. His father was | z 19 | peesesien ted: having. been elected to a second term. He was ! 5 0 | already elected; he had not taken office. . i see “ I was profoundly touched by the presence of this son of - fe pe 2 an assassinated President in the lobby of our Embassy to, in | turn, express his sorrow to us for the assassination of our Ww in That does not. prove anything one way or another, but it StgRe! ALSERSON REPORTING CO MP SALT a a4 | President. { | t i i HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 76
| made | } w ow 1 Shy, Fc Sk | Pa S | to de LAs 3 a tremendous effect on me. As I mentioned very early in our session today, I am not aware that there was any exultation, satisfaction, or happi- inside the Cuban Embassy over the assassination of the } ness | President. And I think, and my personal belief is, that everything points to Lee Harvey Oswald having done it, and it alone. There is nothing I have ever seen or heard which would me to. accept, for one moment, any complicity on the part of my Agency or any other agency of the United States government. Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you, Mr. Shaw. I would like to add that as soon as the transcript of | deposition is available,.we will be in touch with you so that you can have an opportunity to review it for accuracy ' and again, I would like to thank you for your time and help wo > < ! o 73 ~ : ‘ j a . | wi oj a | done ~ | & | a lead : 5 | . a 2 to} S | = i = } this & tat = > today. s a = 13 (= \e “ = 20 a 4 3 il “jit a il 33 ! i HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Mr. Shaw. I thank you, gentlemen. (Thereupon, at 7330 p.m. the Executive Session recessed.) owe ALDERSON REPORTING comPakiy Page 77 a nn ne a
af es worn Raye. Bale’ ‘ i | CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER | i I, Rosemary C. Tascione, the officer before whom the 3 i foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the + [wieness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition 2 ; {was duly sworn by the Notary; that the testimony of said wit- ~ i 2 , | ness was taken by myself, stenomask reporter, and thereafter < 5 || reduced to typewriting under my directton; that I am neither e “| coonset for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties € 3 , | to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further, = tg | that I am not. a relative or employee of any attorney or = ' i ¢ ! FS , {counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially = "4 a ‘ : 1, | OF otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 2 il | PORTER | : i = ts : <n : \ ~ iT] < i 5 26 | Sr 4 So aa, ALSERSON REPCARTING COMP EAY HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 78