v9.1 HW 50529 AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE: DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : DOCUMENT TYPE : CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : DoclId: 32241873 JFK Assassination System Date: Identification Form Agency Information HSCA 180-10065-10407 NUMBERED FILES 008754 Document Information CHICAGO CRIME COMMISSION 03/29/1951 78 DALLAZ, TX, RACKETEERING AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES GUNS ORGANIZED CRIME KNAPP, JACK MEXICO, RACKETEERING AND SUBVERISVIE ACTIVITIES GUTHRIE, STEVE OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT Unclassified 3 Redact 10/16/1996 159-1. Box 159. Page 1 9/21/201
wel cette to The first seven recordings of this meeting are not transcribed in deteil inasmuch as-they are. not pertinent to this matter but the following brief is set out. , hej. PR. fray, iL, Record 1 bap UT, // Ys ut Discussion of the new home which GUTHRIE has purchased at MM, 7 900.00. JONES steted that he had built a house on Blanch Circle which home cost him $6,500. It is to be noted that this home was purchesed from Pollard—Simmons. Record 2 Discussion of GUTHRIE's German Shepherd dog 23 months old. Record 3 JONES discussion of the power of money relating that a few years ago $50 a week was good money but now was nothing. Record 4 GUTHRIE steted that he had chance to buy a..357 Megnum revolver and he described to JONES the penetrating power of the weapon stating it. would shoot completely through a Packard automobile. PAUL advised GUTHRIE not to buy any kind of gun. He stated friends will give him guns and guns he will confiscate at the Sheriff's Office will more than satisfy his needs. JONES discusses the relative merits of _ verious firearms stating that in his estimation a 324.20 is a gun he believes best suited for his purpose as it will penetrate a bullet-proof vest, however, JONES statea this gun nad no shocking power, that it would go through a men and not do much Gamage. He advised GUTHHKIE to carry a firearm with the most shocking force. PsuL says his gun is a Colt.45 automatic with hammer and trigger. guard sawed off. Record 5 He described this gun as being loaded with a clip conteining three shells, which clip nolds the ejected cartridge case after the bullet hes been fired. He re- lates that this gun is extremely handy inasmuch as it is difficult-on a rainy night to crawl around on your hand end knees looking for ejected cartridge cases. He states ne knows a man who smuggled in 100 gunds from Germany and they are perfect. JONES stated that ne never hit 2 man with a gun in his life and never wants to be hit by one. The only time he had ever taken a gun from his pocket, or would ever take it from nsi pocket would be for one purpose and that would SIDA Pope Ar eetttn ora CRINE OCMEUSSITN be to kili someone. A gun to him is a weapmonly to be used fortmurder. We Mani Geee AA OK Ie a kee YEO XR Wy. \ Sou. \nre Sista Usage Ze. i AW 50529 Docld: 32241673 Page 2 wt _ oer te SUT ON is kk er 60-/¢-|
HW 50529 Record 6 JONES relates agein, my epople do not like automatic guns because they eject the shells. If you ever stop in the rain on a aGark night and. try to pick those ‘things up you will understand what I mean. GUTHRIE ask PAUL if that was & voice of. experience speaking, to which he made no reply. Record 7 Further discussion by JONES, BUTLER, and GUTHRIE of the value of a +357 Magnum and Jones agrees he will give both GUTHRIE and BUTLER ea magnum which he will purchase on his- trip tO Chicago in a few. days. ; GUTHRIE: Dalles, Texas is the hottest spot in the country and George knows - at. I aon't heve to tell George... I'l] bet ballas is the hottest spot in the United “tates today, the hottest -spot. Not only that, but -----~~-- JONES: Why is it hot? G. Beceuse they let this vice get out of control. I know there is going to be dice games, bookie joints, and ——~ Je Why not control it? G. “That's what they should have done, but they let it get out anc the only way to control it is this way now, ——~- . Je it can be controlled. G. I'll tell you what Pewls I dontt have to tell you who Bennie CBee. is, who lyy, Miller is or Dalton, and you know all. the bie | boy racket here in this syndicate. “Binion takes off one million flat dollars a year, one flat million. On policy alone. Je What does he get ——------—— G. Probably two thousand dollars a week peak. Je They offered the thing to me when the blow up came and Binion and ali of them got scared when some of these people were identified here in town, right after Minyard was bit and ‘they came to me and offered me the thing for $5000 dollars a week. I told tnem ifthe town wasn't worth more than $5000 a week I didn't want it. DoclId: 322741873 Page 3
bhai, HW 50529 Jeo G. Je Ba a et Why, that's chicken feed, They said well, we'll let you have everything for $5000 a. week. I said I don! t want it for $5000 a week. . They said how about $4000. .. I said you-are going: the wrong way. 1 said because you-can't:do = | for money what i would want you to do. or you would want’ a hell of a lot more then $5000 a week. Well, ~----- Because + can show you. I know woat they make and that is the reason you laugh about it. . I know it is. Because they hang out with each other. I can show you Binion and Cauldin in the Century room together. You mean dean Cauldin the Yistrict #ttorney goes with Binion the big gambler. Would 1 be™seen on the street with thet Basterd; would I be seen on the street with one of tnose Son-d6f-a-bitches, Hell no. Here is the deal raul, Everybody knows the city, the Mayor 1 guess, the Sheriff's Uffice I. don't know 4 guess that they are paid.off, we know they are paid off but-what 1 want to kmow is this, how in the fell they get all the way to Austin and get a pay off down: ‘there. You can't pay off a Ranger. No they tell me they arepretty good. I have turned down a pretty good offer. I told you what'l turned down. Look who 4 would be bucking, i would be bucking Wid) Wilson, Listrict: Attorney, Conzaulles the Ranger, I would-be bucking every— body. How could I get C On B"titket like that without. knowing. something. How in the | Hell would I know. ok T'i show you how you can do that. Here's what i propose. As 1 toid ir. Butler, we are not interested in you.for two. years. 11] tell how we can control Binion. I'll show you. There would be no trial. We wontt have to shoot nobody .and you worft. have to shoot nobody. Well, now that shooting in Dalles county. I'l) tell you right now, I'm fed up with that shooting. 4 don't care if.a man is a gambler he don't have any right to be shot up. We don't shoot nobody. We don't shoot nobody. There: won't be no shooting. ; : We're not going to bring no more people in here. ‘Vie need no more than we already have. I propose to use this man as example because he says he is a good friend of yours. ‘uring the campaign he ceme DoclId: 322741873 Page 4
AW 50529 G. -4- to me and asked me to support you and he told me he was a very good friend of yours and asked me to make a: statement concerning a little action Smoot. Schmid took to get a little publicity.: took some: pictures “and put tin the paper. saying we ren them sat of town, done run them out of toyn; Benny Goodwin ran them out of town. A publicity stunt for his campaign. I raised “ell about it, and this friend of yours said. will you tell a couple of people about it. I said not only will I tell them but I'm going to tell the Federal Judge about it. Before 1 go any further you tell me whether ne.is a good friend of yours,» Cai CK LANCASTER. Chick is a fair friena of mine. I went to school with him. Played football. with. him. We were good friends and Chicago was a good boy. There is no shooting. No shooting. But here is what I want to do, just like we opened in Charleston, West Virginia the first of the month. %ame set up that I propose to you. We operate all over the country’, understand. Dian't you all take New Vrleans. We put Morrison in town tnere and paid his father-in-law and supported him in Mexico City. His dad has control of something big-in Mexico City doesn't he? That's right. Is that Dean. AQBELSON: Yes. Is he the Chief of Police of —----- no he is Mayor of New Urleans isn't he. That's right. 4n Mexico City ‘we did sométhing-even Capone failed to do. .1 went down there and there was a little heat on, and I wanted to go.to Mexico City for vacation. 1 met people. 1 had never been able to meet before. If you will live like they live and become one of them, 4 will grant you they offer you enything. Friendship, that's what L.like. i'll show you a card from Chief of Federal Police ‘in Mexico. It's in Spanish. He is Chief of the Federal Highway Patrol. He let me haul anything in Mexico and let me alone. DoclId: 322741873 Page 5
(HW 50529 Is he a German Paul. You don't have to answer this if you don't want to. Isn't any Bastard Vommuni st or Nazis or those crappie guys tied to this deal sre they. With me? No. I fougnt for this country and if 1 take anything or make any deal with anybody ——-—~ . , , Look, you want me to tell you something. We have had more men in Service than any one company.in the United States. You know Fritz always wanted Marty Ochs but could never find him because’ he bag no criminal record. “You know the thing-i am burned up about is these people that sit and holler about the Chicago: hoodlums.” The. lest three had never. been arrested before in their life. I was the only one in the. group, two were Masons and Shriners ana the other a 22 year old kid. They were held in jail two aays and two nignts without even being asked their names. When the lawyer came in with writs they re- leased them anc ran them out of' town, that is they took their pictures and said they ran them out, and i am raising Hell beceuse they didn't heve any record. Who is Tamayo?...... He is chief of the Federal Highway Patrol. dei Aaa I can speak Spanish a little.” ugenial Anellie Tamayo. Iif-you can tii“kiss your nose." pronounce that after I speli it T' Tamayo ° _if you think this guy is not a German listen to this name. "Maus", who in the Hell is he. a He used to be plant superintendent. Zassenhaus, that is a pure dee German. Here it is John Watterman, lew Urleans, Walnut 4768 Casino, I've heard the name. Mayor's private telephone number, Boco 10 (other numbers not identifiable), Watterman don't live there, he lives in Mexico City. Well I'l) tell you what. There was a lot of trouble started down there when Luck Luciano came out. He left Italy headed for Sentucky. DoclId: 322741873 Page 6
HW 50529 He's - still there isn't he? We ‘didn't help bring Lucey veiano. ba Mexico although ‘U. &. Immigration gets the idee that we are responsible for Luciano.coming here so they tried to put the heat on us. The Trade Department came down and 1 had a.long:talk with them. I explained to them, I told them I'll. take your people and show you what our interest is. We operate nearly 100% legitimately. We have a distillery in Mexico. We - control nearly 80% of the textile inéustry. Are you all the ones that have a controlling interest in the Ice Cream business in Mexico? ; We have nearly all the ice cream business in Mexico. I heard something about that, let's see, if they wouldn't buy their milk from somebody, somebody didn't get something. Didn't get the machines. We had the machines that made the ice CreaMe You don't have to pick him up, we pick him up. Or if anybody robs a filling station in a district, we control. There are districts you do and districts you don't. . Oh, sure. We understand that. e do that ourselves because if we have a man in office who is co-operating with us it is to our advantage to re-elect him. We have got to keep him in office. We've got to protect hin. ‘ Monterrey. Monterrey, Mexico. How do you pronounce this, Sutcliff. Sutcliff, be is an Englishman. Tnat is the. name of our company down there, the Textile Company. Are they Englishmen or -~---- All Mexican. This is ea comfortable chair. DoclId: 322741873 Page 7
G. Do you remember one of the fellows who was in your line-up at Dalles. You remember Breakstone. Here George you can tell me. Supposing, and you damn good and well. who controls balles now, supposing Binnie Binion and ail this bunch, you know they control it, and suppose somebody else comes in here and they happen to buy me off or not buy me off but happen to take care of me, what's going to heppen to Binion end them. They are going to do lots.of shooting. There ain't going to be no shooting. Hell, there would have to be. In friction like that Paul ------ In the first plece those people are pretty smart and in the second place they are not as rough as they claim to be. Don't let nobody ever kid you that he wants to invite trouble. Don't nobody want to invite trouble. Now let me tell you something. It is like a lawyer that came to me orle time and saia he wanted to advise me that there might be some trouble. He seys course i want you to kmow that if you get into any trouble i'm a lawyer and if any of your boys get into eny trouble I'll kelp defend them. I knew he sent for me and I told him that you go back and tell them "that for every hair that is harmed on the head of my people I will put 10 stiffs in your door every morning. tvery morning there will be 10 stiffs packed in your door.’ You can go back and tell them that. “e operate awfully funny. in first place we are armed. We are honest. Feople cannot understand that. we are very very honest. -1 mean, in other words suppose Butler is with us and we sent nim somewhere to see somebody. He tells me who he is to see and who he sees. lf any- thing happens to him we go to see and get the person whom we went to see. Suppose we sent him somewhere to take some‘money and he don't come back with the money. lt may teke one month or 6 months but we will eventually know what happened to Butler and what happened to the money, and if Cutler was in thewong, that's all, but if Butler was in the right we will see thet Sutler's-peopie are taken care of and the people who were on Butler are taken care of. Let me tell you something. Let me show you how we operate as a syndicate. We O.K.-a lot of people, peope who are in no way at all connected With us. They come to us wanting to know if we will UK them” operating place. We investigate them and if OK we let them operate for a ‘piece of the operation. tie OX'd Lipski down here. We did not OK him for some things tnat he said he would like to do and as soon as we knew those things we immediately took our OK off Lipski and ran Lipski out of here. {i though Lipski was the head chief. (AW 50529) Docld:32241873 Page 8
_¢- J. You know how we get: mixed up with Lipski. He was a dairyman in . Chicago. Lipski started the Farmers Co-operative Association and he wanted the Dairyman Union, .of which we are interested ‘in, and he wanted us to OK him and his Cooperative Union. After while Lipski left the Dairy. business and left us. He went into the black market whiskey business with a fellow named Louis Isharo (phonetic) and they made about one million dollars quick. Lipski and Isnaro bougnt the Lockheed factory in Los Angeles. The Internal hevenue moves in on him and he laesés everything. Lipski goes to fick DeJonns and said I am broke. I want to leave Chicago and would like a little help. He had never been to Vallas, texas in his life. I got him a room and he came to Dallas and just drove around and told me he would like the li- quor. anted to know the law on beer here. He said he had an opening for 5,000 gallons of bonded whiskey in kegs. G. 5,000. J. Yes, he said + would like to have a store to put it through. I said what's the deal. He told me. He said i have already talked.to Nick. I said why don't you go back to Chicago ana talk to Nick and I'll call Nick and tel him youtll be down.. We opened 2 store, then.a bigger store as the first.one wasn't big enough. He said send me two clerks from Chicago. I ask why he didn't hire local clerks and he said he had rather have somebody he knew:and could trust. I said OK. He sent 2 fellows whom 1 did not know. 4e told them to come to me. hey called me and told-me they were in room so and so at the Adoipbus, so i went down to see them. 1 look at them and they tell me that Lipski sent them gown. They continued living at the Adolphus. Next time-I talk to Nick i told him these 2 licuor clerks sent from Chicago were still living at the Adolpims, eating at big places, and i opened charge account at “eimans.. 1 said how about it, a little high . ism'’t-it., He said move thems’. 1 moved them-to thé Scott Hotel.» They - didn't like it. One of them said that is ea hell of a way to treat me after what my dad did for you. What your dad -did‘for me. He said, yes. I said, who is your dad. He said Lego Mangano. I said sure your dad was a good friend of minue, but what are “ydéu~and Jimmie doing clerking ' in a liquor store. He said, clerking in a liquor store, we are going to take over all the whiskey places with Lipski. 4 call Nick and said come to Yelias and bring “ipsKi with’ you.’ they came that night. I said before lt tell you anything + said tell Nick what you told me.. He said sure 1 will tell hin. te are going to take over all the retail - whiskey: stores in Dallas with Lipski, Marty Ochs, Jimmie (the) Bee. “ Nick says, Lipski, you are out of the whiskey business in texas. "you are out". I want tnat store closed down as quickly as possible, liquidated, and you and Yimmie come on back.to Chicago. When you arrested them there wasn't a bottle of whiskey in the store. G. But they had their orders in. HW 50529 DBocld:32241673 Page 9
HW 50529 Je G. -9- I want to explain how that happened, because thet stinks to high heaven. Lipski said he was: going to lose lots of money liquidating the store. He said he would stay here if Nick would let him. Nick said Paul is there anything you can do with him. I said there is a distributorship that can be bought. Lipski said I'll buy it. I. said where ere you going to get your $70,000. He said I'll get it from Paul. Yaul's night Club, Chicago. Sgt. Akard from the Chicago Volice brought $60,000 and he bought one half interest in Southwestern #nusement Co. i Is Lou Schneider one of nis men. i Yes, Lou was one of his men but Lou came- later, he was in the druy at this time. Lou says to. me i want to operate in Dalles.. Lipski says to me, look I'1l guy ‘in in Yallas. I say, now “arcus if you want to get in Dallas I'll ¢o to Chicago with you and we'll sit down with the man in Chicago and get their UK. After we did this they said, look Paul what- ever you say is OK, we'll nold you responsible you've been at Dallas 6 years and you know how.thin’s are Paul 1 thought you were a Dallas man. J. No I have been here 6 years. G. Je Are you from Chicago? Yes, but 1 heve lived here 6 years. My epople are from lexas; my cousin is @ mechanical engineer in Gainesville. fhe Chicago people said they would hold me responsible for Lipski's activities in Texas. Lipski says, Paul here is what 1 want to do. I want to take over all slot machines, I say, all right you tell me how you want to do and we'll see what we can do. hipski says to me, Paul wetll grab Minion, Miller, baiton,, and Bennie SNES ‘Bickers, those four, and park them in a car in front of ENS pe police s ation. dead, I put. a stop to that. I'm not going to spend the rest:.of my life in the "stir". { told him that 1 have lived with these*péople, I have worked with them and layed with them and 1 think 1 know their reaction. Thet would be the wrong thing to doe, in the first place you're not going to take them over. If the opportunity ever presents itself I'l] take them over, not you. We argued for several days. He said well'Paul what about the slot machines, ‘how about me taking over all them. I said all right Itll give you the. slot machines but you are going to:heve to buy them and at their terms. itll get them all together and find out how much money it will take if they want to sell. So 1 bought out the slot machines and juke boxes in Shreveport, “onroe, Huston, Louisiana, Ft. Smith, Arkansas, Mineral Wells and first oen place and another. i then left for Mexico Vity and Nick called me in Mexico tity and told me to come to Valles... He had gotten some reports from Dallas and they weren't very good. So Ii came back and the first DoclId: 322741873 Page 10
AW 50529 - 10 - person I ran into was Danny Lardi dinoe.,..So L called dark. I said Mark I want you to come out to see me, mhat are you going with Vanny Lardino down here* we said Uanny Lardino is with me. I said, Danny Lardino is with you, what are you trying to do show power down ‘here. He said, why not, why not.” He said, 1 have all the slot machines and juke boxes down here and will as in New Yrleans, why not show a little power dowm here. I said I am going to show you a little power Mark. I pick up telephone in his .presence and 1 called Nick and 1 told Nick, 1 want Mark and "everybody" connected with him out, not only in Vallas but in the South. 1 want them out auick. Just so there won't be any trouble and thst they pack and pack quickly you had better send me some men down here. Nick says who do you want Paul and I say.so.and so and so and so. Mark says no Paul, wait “aul, wait Paul, I'll Bet out. I said to Nick, wait a minute Nick maybe it won't bé uebessary. Nick said he would call UVanny Lardino's brother to have Danny to return to Chicago immediately. ‘So they called all Mark's people back home. Is that why they left town? £4 ie . That's when they left town. Aerets what happened to me. My people called me and told me to come here and straighten out this matter. I called, acaptain , Fritz when I came into town, and I found out that every- body had been picked up and questioned and I ask them what they had done. They.said nothing Paul, we ain't done nothing. I said to Ligski, -what have you been doing. Nothing, not a thing Paul. .I said if. you are not doing nothing.there is not going to be any trouble... But l found ne was trying to buy a big building in town they. were building for nim across from the:Manger Hotel where he was going to open a big bookie house. I told him, 1 said, look, you are going "back", so I called Fritz, Dallas Police-Department. Now this is.the thing ! hold against Fritz, because Fritz-don't néed to treat me like a kid. One time bill Decker called my léwyer and my lewyer called me in Havane, Cuba and said, Paul, Bill Decker wants to talk to you. I caught the first plane out and went to see Bill. ‘nat's the way we work. I don't care who you want of my people regardless of where he is he will.come. in immediately. I called Captain Fritz. I said, Captain Fritz this is Paul Jones. He said, yes: how are-you. i-am a little tired 1 just flew in. I said Captain Fritz I want to talk-to you.. He. said yes Faul come on down. I said OK I'll be down in a few minutes.” 1 go down:and he says sit down. While 1 am waiting.there 1+ kept waiting and waiting and pretty soon, I say Captain whet is this a small time frame. Fretty soon he says come on: in here Paul. He takes me in another room. and locks me up and goes out'and picks up everybody in town and throws them in jail. %e stay in jail until my attorney goes to Lake Dailas and gets the judge to sign a writ to get us out early Sunday morning, and Fritz hasn't talked to me yet. That's pretty damn cheap. DoclId: 322741873 Page i1
“HW 50599 J» - il - This is what 1 wanted to tell Fritz. Look Fritz we OK'd some people down here and- made a mistake, it was the understanding thet. they were not to bother anybody and did not want anything other then business they were already in.: I'11 have them all out of town in a. couple of days. I'll send them back to Chicago. I am sorry it happened and promise it will not happen again. Who dia they put in Paul. ieinberg, Labriola, Breakstone, “ou Schneider, Jim some others. . as bancella and Is Schneider still living? Yes. I heard he got kmocked off. No, one of Lipski's boys, Conklin, in Houston. ‘es it was Conklin. Here is wheat vVonklin tried to do. He went back to Houston’ and tried to cross us. He beat it from here to Houston. dere is my idea: that I am very much interested in. I am going to ask a question... Are you opposed to Joe Cunningham being ay lewyer? I don't know I would have to think it over. Let me tell you this --—-- gham. PET eigey Posen. I like Joe C If I told-you Joe Cunningham was my: Lawyer would Joe “Vunningham have your whole—hearted interest. 3 - * oR Well, before you go any further let me tell you something first. I have been @ poor man ell my life. 4 know there is going to be. gambling in Dalles. I'm not goint to be a fool, 1 don't care who I play ball with regardless of who it is 4 am not going to be anybody's fool, but T. K, Irwin and Joc Uinningham offered me the measley sum‘of. #7, 500 eel te Se aa gr, to 1 buy me ‘out of this race when it is worth one half million dollars a year to a man if he plays it right and.I knor it. I know what Smoot Schmid has been paid, and 1 know what Bill Decker has: been paid. I don't know exactly what they have been paid | but if he vented me to get out why didn't he offer me some money. I mention Joe Cunningham because 1 trust Joe Cunningham to the (nth) degree. DoclId: 322741873 Page 12
i HW 50529 Go Je G. Well I wouldnt trust anybody in that office if they just offered me 87500. ae are Oe eae Here is my proposition to you. You pick a man, a local man, we will put him in business. We will rent him a building but we will finance it. He will put in some juke boxes, some marble tables, some slot machines. He will get nim a mechanic and e pick-up truck. He will start hustling getting him some locations, legitimately, no muscles attached. “omebody that you trust. if you trust him, 1 trust nim. _We will furnish him all the slot machines, marble tables, punch boards, etc., we will operate and there will be only one gambling house in the And you will open the Southland and the Blue Monnet and —-—- Wait a minute, let me finish. I am talking about when you take office. ot : The county is all you have;you can't mess with the city to begin with. That's what you think Viell, I mean to be a good sheriff. Now wait a mimute. To be a good sheriff 1 am over every man in Dallas. I can come in any time I want to. No, but wait a minute. H5ut if you do without heving it properly set ‘up everything. is going down and nobody will be coming up. In other words, 1: can close town, 1 mean the whole town. x Yet, you cannot OK somebody to run the town. You are right there it has to come from other sources. Let me get the other sources before you start anything in town. : I am going to show you how to get the other sources. Let's just think in terms of the county now. te will immediately open a:club.- Wetll - use local men. : . You want bring in any Yhicago men. I will have only one man there who is capable of stopping the money. Put he looks like a preacher, he is quite, he is not a Vago, he is not a Jew, and even your man won't know who he is. Put he will be there every night shooting dice.. Hetll lose. Hetll win. Hetll lose © and he'll win. He protects the game. ; DoclId: 322741873 Page 13
/ WW 50529 Ge Gs : rie eh ae Pda ol Ue Pee ~13- While we are on this subject 1 want to get a few things straight. I am a young man at this. thing... You’ kmow the church people put me on. You know yourself that nobody was behind me. What would they say if I opened up a joint out in the county. ‘ You're not going to open the joint. Well I mean if a joint is opened. What about YVonzaullas, he'll can my ass off. You have nothing to do with this joint. I know, t wontt even know it is out there. The man that you get, this local man, has a place of business, regular business. He will hire local men to rum it. in other words 4. know local men like Bob Fletcher, Tom Cooley, Sherman.bittle,.. They will go With me tonight. See what T mean, they are all local men. They Will be the ones that ae running it, yet your man will handle the money. All I am going to have out there is a man to protect the game to see that the "deals" don't throw the money away. Your man is there to handle the money, ana I am going to.have a man there to protect him because he is not going to be smart enough, because all he can do is to keep somebody from taking it out of his pocket. And if Jerry New ‘orker, Clint Matheson-or some of those boys come in, and they will be in with e couplé*of*httidred thousand in their pocket to shoot at. you, you want to be able to protect yourself. i think that is out of the question as to the county. Wi hy? Well you - know why, they haven't had it so far. % Why? The damn state would get on their ass, man/ Way doesn't the state get on "Top of the mn". Because Amel, Carter. takes care of that I imagine. ‘You take. Gonmnzaulles. I don't kiéw whether he has anything to do with this or not but he is rough. They take care of Gonzaulles in the City why not in the county. Yes, but do they take care of him in the city, do they? DoclId: 322741873 Page 14
~ wrens | HW 50529 m-LLa Here is what I am trying to get. straight. You know you are my friend. I can trust you. How in the Hell are we going: to open a place when there hasn't been a place in the county. . That is one reason why the syndicate has no complaint to makey: that is why I went to open in the county. The County, virgin territory. I know it is virgin territory. — I am not stepping. on-no bodys toes if we open in the county. Oh, shit man, you don't know. I am telling you boy,.! am scared of thos Rangers. . They can get mee. an How? They Say, . Guthrie, come here we are going out here and put a pad-lock on this joint.. Then there goes all the moneye. All right, suppose. they come out and are caused to close the ‘place. Before they do that, before they come in don't you think it would be smart for you to raid the place once in a while. But Paul you can. "t get by those boys They slip in here without + anybody knowing it. ae : Well maybe if the ‘Rangers get too active, maybe they. might be: transferred to El Paso or someplace like that for their health. - How about Gonzales? ‘Gonzaulles gets slong here allright. He has not. bothered snypedye. ae he bothered anybody? Well i don't know that he has ‘pothered : anybody but I know he is here 24 hours a day, six days a weeks . . There is only one man I .am not sure of and that is Will Nilson. Sah caiete Lok AT TRIER: Well, ‘T tell you one thing, Will is rough. I. would like to know how we can handle Will Wilson. Well he is a little rough, Paul. DoclId: 322741873 Page 15
AW 50529 - 1 -. You wouldn't want me to go around town saying I am negotiating with you. Even-after I make this offer if anybody says I. said it, it is a damn lie. Sure. - That's right. Just ‘Let me tell you-thetwhen time comes for. you to make. your income tax out a man will take you to the Income Tax. Department ‘and your _ Income Tax will be made-up properly~and you want pay on that: kind of money but they will settle with yous. #ach return is a: compromise settlement. See what:I.mean. It is. like this, you walk in. and say, listen, I'made a lot of.money,. didn't. keep no records:and don't. know where lots of it came from, but my man.does ‘the talking... Be takes you to the man who knows what it is all about. You know Paul yourself thet you can't spend a pocket full of money. ! o We are going to worry about you more than you are going ‘to worry about yourself. I don't know about that. They « are not going to let. you do | enything that will embarrass you because it is our interest to protect you, we have got to. We.do. everything possible to keep crime. down in the comty. You know that when crime is committed. the heat is put on you. We can't keep kids from stealing automobiles, but we can keep” any known criminal from. operating: in the coumty. I don't think you can get to Rill titcon without an initial offering. What do you. mean an initial offering. I mean he. will have to have some money in advance. - Let: me tell you something... From Wilson's standpoint, it would be a mistake for him to do that. Because Wilson is not sure what: he ‘can do for USe ; _ So You know what he can do.:for Mee Look, if I go down and give Wilson $5000 to protect me, ‘but.if Wilson” ig a partner in something all he can do is the best he cans ‘We want you to be a good Sheriff. All we want to: know is when this and that is going to happen. linen you are going to raid the dice games so we want DoclId: 322741873 Page i7
HW 50529 Seema aes -17- a have our good equipment out.: Come on in and chop ° ‘up the tables, just let me know.. We want Will Wilson to be a good District ‘Attorney. We own-in the United States today all the plane enamel wire, that: is why there is no more available. tie have nearly all the out put of ‘the steel mills tied upe See what I mean. You see all 1 do for my people is organize the territory. + orgenize the territory but anything L tell you, only. tell” you whet I can do. See what I mean.. You can't see me... - can't be active. I have other business to do. Someone will advise them constantly, .and train them. The mechenics will come with the machines. They- just aren t available down here. Stes co Low will 1 set tied in. You know there is going to be a new city election-in April. , moog 4 want you to recommend, Now + tell you one thing about Joe Cunningham — iio, 4 like Joe personally, but I ~~ | | No you don't have to worry about Erwin. You say you don't have to. : a No, .T. K, will do just what I tell hin. He wi]l1? | | The reason we use T.Ke ———— Did you all run Joe? We tried to keep him from ‘running .. and he wented to run. You all didn't have anybody.in the DA race? _ Not no body. Priest offered me for. $10, 000. ‘campaign expenses | Ehety that was all I would have to give him for two: yearse Now tell me, no you. don't: have to tell me unless you want to. Did you get tied up in the Sheriff's race? No, not at all. 1 don't think Smoot Schmid is getting anything out of the city of. Dallas. “ow + tell you where he is getting all that money. . His two ~ Deputies who are uniform cruisers in the Sheriff's office,. that operate on the Northwest dighway. I know the fellows with slot machines -around White Rock Lake, and Roff's Vhicken Shack.. They pay these men $25 e week a piece. Now they are cheating on Smoot. - Hee Docld: 322741873 Page 138
; HW 450529 2 18 - You mean: these uniform men. take the money. tes, § $25 a week each for leaving those machines alone. How many machines would you say he had ‘in. ali He must have. about 30 in all going.: Don't you know somebody in the Sheriff's office is operating machines. “You know who-is operating them too, A onions: Co an But all this: can't be done in a day or a. week, it has to be. done gradually. .Here-is what I want to do. 4: ‘could have come to you and offered you so.much a week or “month and get a Protecting accounts You. want to: ‘be: Sheriff. Didn't 3 you nention being in Charleston’ and operating theres Is that a new Sheriff? + believe they run their:city and county together. Yes, everybody works together. Now that is what I want, definitely we want to cooperate. “e want to be interested in this new city. ticket that is coming. - We will pour some money into that election and we'l] have a favorable administration in the-city, one that will: © be the city administration that you. People went.’ ~We will go down the line with them. fou know you are earful big, «but I: still wonder if it would ‘be worth the #405 000 a month, ebout one half million a year. Zou are very conservative. Do you. think I could make the one - half million a year for six or 8 years? As long. as you went to. be Sheriff. . . oy I know pig: money is being paid in Dellas but’ still —-- + know they could cover the money up but- Hell what good is going to.do me, I don’ t make but $7700 a year, you can't hide it wder your house. You are not going to have to hide hte You are going to pay income tax on it. | ; a But suppose somebody went down to the Income Tex Bureau and say we want to check on Guthrie's Income, some of my opponents, and they see where I cleared nearly one half million dollars. Suppose some of. my opponents do that, well man 1 am whipped. Do, Mr. Guthrie, we'll let our worrying Department worry about that. Yes, but I have got to know about these things. I. don't want to get DoclId: 322741873 Page 19
; HW 50529 - 19 in that Federal pen.. I want to go. on in there and‘ make myself sone money. I want to be honest, but.I want to make some money’ ‘because it is. there. to make. . _ We have never: beat a man who where. «%o where.’ 1- don't know of an incident where we were responsible for a men being ‘beat. Take Tucson, Arizona, Guring election this year. -There was 16.people running for Sheriff; but when all was over the man was elected without opposition. . You mention the churches. We contribute to them:too. fie don't forget them. You can be Sheriff of this Comty.as long as you went to Steve. Se, is that: ‘why Smoot has been Sheriff.so long? On, 4 don. t know, ofcourse: théy took pretty good’ care of mew 4+ got everything out of the Sheriff's Office I ever ask for. © ss Fe all know that ELlL-Becker-is : & pay: off man with: Binnie Binion. ‘You know it don't you?. tou know that George. : Yes. Look, 4 have got to make a call or the lawyer will be calling... I'm going to call Chicago collect. (Jones calls Haymarket 1427) fest Virginia is a monopoly state. No whiskéy during 0.P.4. Governor of West Virginia said my people want whiskey... He said. I: want to make a deal with you. You furnish us enough whiskey for West Virginia, 4°11 give you exclusive gambling privileges in the entire. States: I said, » it's a deal. We started shipping Whi skey : cin ‘the. States In next record Jones relates ‘about Bob Minyard getting killed. States it was done by somebody who was mad at BOD? Lor ome, personal: reason. such as jealousy, rather than being gangland killing,” the only Justification was that Minyeard was shot with a shot gun. a Next record Paul. Jones, relates conversation: in which.resulted in his contacting Bob H#inyard, ‘local deceased gambler, on. occasion in which Paul had requested his wife to contact Minyard. to obtain $1000 4o:gend.to him in West Virginia. . Minyard allegedly. became fresh with. his: wife and apologized to Jones. when Jones ; contacted: him. On this record ‘Jones relates his association with a negro Doctor in Dallas whom.he names as Dr.. Keys,:a:negro Dentist. which Ventist: recognized him on the streets in Dallas: and told Paul that’he. would-give him anything he wanted in negro town if he would get negro Folicemen on:the Dallas: Police’ force. 4e ‘relates that Dr. Keys took him-to negro. Chamber of Commerce meeting; end introduced him to many influential . “negroes throughout Dalias. : . Docld: 322741873 Page 20
HW 50529 -~ 20 - Jones relates that through this association his organization will ‘have no trouble in ‘taking over policy games among negroes in Lilas. 4n the next record Jones relates an amusing incident. regarding his meeting a former negro maid.of theirs on- streets of Dallas while he was accompanied by his wife. . 7 - « Jones says this business I am in is organized business. Ye fight a lot of those. Dope; we are not interested. - We know who: sells dope in a town and we have nothing to-do with it. . fie ‘don! .t handle ity we don' + touch it. Only horse. ‘bookies, dice,. slots, : etc. “ Isn't. slots. the main. ideas I'll tell you. |. Here is why. we- like slots... Slots: sit there and grind all day and all night. They make a lot of money. A slot will last: 25. yearse at is not. cheating, you know what it will pay off. This thing is such a big organization Paul is ‘there any chance. for anyone else to come in? No chance. +s Yapone boys still living? Yes. Ralph? Yes. is he operating the main thing? No, He is not ‘the main man but -he has’ done ‘an awful lot of good work. Ralph was never a-big man.- Gu2ik. Jack Guzik is the main man. i ARH TIAL He is head of the ‘whole thing. 7 Oo , They call him Gréasy Thumb. - 1'T1 tell you one thing we are trying to do. We would like to.do it down here through the next legislature, that is to operate a currency exchange. Jones relates how. currency exchange operates. : States they control: all exchanges in Chicago and that for small service charge they will pay all the persons bills or cash their checks. He points out that this is en aid to gambling inasmuch as an influential person who drops a lot of money at-a crap game may need’ to cash a check to pay off his debt although he would not desire to have a check made payable to a-dice table or a know gambler. Therefore he.can passa check through a money exchange which is.a respectable organization. DoclId: 322741873 Page ?1
-21- In: these exchanges’ Jones. relates: that: they are ideal for cashing - ‘black Market checks. ' First part of record forty-one Jones continues to describe. the working of money exchanges and other casual: conversation. Paul what about the Internal Revenue. Department on: this deal? They have never at any time prosecuted anyone without first offering to settle. They want your. money, that is all they want. oo How about Vapone?. ‘He got. sent. up on Tax evasion. . Tney -tried to use him for an example and that was. the only thing they could ever convict Capone on.» They. knew he was’ guilty of lot of things but that was all they could make.a case on. Where is Capone now? Jones did not replye gones states that an exemple of Internal Revenue's operation was Steinberg case. That-4tnternal Revenue offered to make a settlement. but Steinberg refused. Reason being if he made settlement with them he would admit his black market-activities and wes afraid of prosecution. « Jones seid if he had been Steinberg he would have settled with’ Internal ‘Revenue and teken. his chance with 0.F Poe oo Paul did you ever pull ‘any time. -How many? - . 7 7 a oa 9 years 7 months 5 days altogether. Federal cases — No, State, for ‘killing a State witnesss. For killing a state witness. ~ I got two life terms ‘to-rm concurrently. I was pardoned... My record shows released expiration of sentence. : Where did you get your time. DoclId: 322741873 Page 22?
_ AW 50529 ~ 22 - Kansas Leavenworth? Yeso Paul you know how. stories go around but I heard that while you were in prison you entertained.and traveled around with. the Governor and other people a lot of time. - Yes, I spent lot of time in indiana, New Orléans, Minneapolis and St. Paul. Tne Governor should have taken me hunting with him we elected: him. ‘Nobody ever heard of the man till we elected him and later made him Secretary of War. Doe | , Who was the Democratic Secretary of War? Peas Se ER EBL Se ge, # PEON EA OTHE STR END, oS arn at ast Did you ever hear of a fellow by name. of Harry Woodrum? Sure, I'l] be darn. I'll show you what we did, and they left that up to me. I was out on appeal bond at time I figured out how 1 could get out. © They put me in a coal mine digging coal, and I got to figuring that they had only had3 Democrat . ‘ Governors in history of the G——- D—— State and that. it was always Republi- can. + got to’ thinking how we could elect a Democrat Governor. . If I could get one elected he would be so obligated to. me that he would have to. pardon me the first thing he did, his first Official act. Not even my people thought of this, nobody but me.’ I was the only one that thought.I had a chance to get out, because there was a State Senator involved.in it. He was the Speaker.of the State Senate who was: afraid if.I ever got out I would either involve him or:kill him one. or the other and I:used to read -his letters of protest in which he: would beg and plead that the prison sauthorities place me in: solitary confinement.: I contected ‘my people and got them to get the mail service to send out material to all precincts and com- mitteemen. A411 the Committeemen in State of Kansas would get letters each week from different people mailed from this post office. We contributed - large amount of money for Democratic campaign: to further the ceuse of the Democratic candidecy in State elections. We:contributed.to this year after year and there was no known connection” between me and this movement. . Fin- ally after building up this organization. elected foodring as Governor of the State. We later elected Ewmuth. I was handling this while in the prison office. I did the buying for the prison. I opened a-business in the prison of loaning money to prisoners. Would loan $10 taking off inter- est given them $9. : We can even elect. Smoot Schmid but two Centenniels, one State Fair and a Hgrvey:- Bailey is enough for any one Sheriff. Harvey Pailey was a nice pay off deal. DoclId: 322741873 Page 23
. - 23 - G. How much did he make off Bailey. J. It was a nice pay off but I.don't remember how much. Bailey was a nice fellow. : G. He didn't get very far on that break did he? J. Did you ever see Bailey? G. Never did. J. He Was a nice fellow. . Looks like a businessman. - Nice, quiet, gentleman acting fellow, nice and quiet, scholarly gentleman appearence. After they took the warden they opened. the gates and invited everybody to get out. +t must have been a half hour after they got the warden: thet they got out. Bailey was the one they brought the guns to. G. Paul do you remember the Urschel kidnapcing case? J. Oh, yes, well. We engineered it all. G. Where did he go on. that case? J. First to Leavenworth then on the Rock. Here is what I couldn't under- stand, the fact that Bailey shot his way out the Kansas State Prison is the reason he.went to the Rock. But Bailey would be a prisoner wtil he got an opportunity to go out.. Se was a.model ‘prisoner. Aept a. clean cell and abided by every rule and regulation. Would ask-for nothing, didn't want to see a lawyer, use a telephone, just sit down and do his time. G. Was ‘he ever the big boss? = ¥ Jeo So, you remember the Valentine day when Bues Moran pub on Police Uniform and met ell men at-Gsrage lined them up But I “don"t ‘know who was with Bugs on the deal. Morris and Bailey. were the ones. who actually did the job, but nobody can do anything, about it. ; ; Gs Look wouldn't it be better for me to-go with some geng not so well Known, they are liable to tie Capone right on my "butt". J. Nobody is going to know you have made a deal. G: They are going to know something is going on. J.  4t will be local. Gs All of them? | HW 50529 Docld:322413873 Page 24
HW 50529 Jo Gs Ge Every one of them.. Everybody will be. There. won! 't be any outsiders? Not a one. The only outsider will be a slot machine mechanic. .- Every slot machine.in Dallas at present time, + sent from Chicago. ‘If you don't want one from Chicago, I ,have one in Buffalo, N.Y. 4 can send.. This will ‘betall “local ‘man, and won *t be anybody come in. The ‘only. people: who come down here will be ones who come only for a visit, they won :t.go ar- ound-the place. See what.I mean. Nobody will know they have anything to do with it. There wont be man one down here. You pick the man.. All we are going to do is train him. ~The man you pick. I: will take-him to Chi- cago with me for couple of weeks or maybe to. New York. -Let him stay there. Let him see everything, then I will put him in business... I'll rent the building in his name, nothing will ‘be in my. name, will “be lo-~ cal, the only man we have here will be that one crap: shooter. He will never speak ‘te us on the street. Nobody will ever. know him. All I want to do is train and finance. Put its got-to be local. let -him find the building, put in his office, end the equipment will start coming to him marked ‘paid. Everything paid. He bought and paid for it. In. other- words. iff we made a deel then I would not have to worry about Will Wilson, District Attorney, or anybody else. I an coing to get to Will fiilson. My man may come to you. + mean my lawyer, end believe me you have got to tell my lawyer everything. Tnat's right. That's why i say if you are opposed to. Joe. Cynninghen, .then-I have got. to take who you tell me to teke. I would like for it to be Joe Sunning- ham. in other words it will all be off of me. You will.take care of the DA, Rangers, and everybody. I won't, who ever isin charge of the thing will, my lawyer. How you know he cen do it? . | ie are going to do it but my lawyer is going to. do that. ‘Hy lawyer is going to do what I tell him.. Would you go with my lawyer to Will Wilson or would you talk to Will Wilson first. i might do it after he has been felt out. He has already been felt oute He has? Yes, he has already been felt out. After I make my deal with youl em DoclId: 322741873 Page 25
Jo. J ~ 25 = 1 crawling out of the picture. I don't want to discuss it with you any more. Is the FBI They are all right. Don't worry about the Government. ‘I don't worry about any of them, they are not going to: bother us, in any shape form or fashion. They are kindly rough. L don't care how rough they are they ere not going to bother us. They are not going to bother us. Let me tell you something about Joe Uumningham. Joe Uumningham knows to wine in fact we had Dean Gavldin in-Uhicego at the last World series, not this lest time the one before. a You had Smoot. Schmid? Yes,.they all came to Chicego and sit in our boxes. That's right. The whole crew, end they know who we are. We also sent them on to Washington. We had the unusual case to come up. ie had Tom Vlark too. Tom “lark knows who we are. We had the unusual case to come up. ~~ Jones tells about a kid boy associated with them who got in trouble over the draft with a Lt. on the West Coast. ‘he first Lt. ras paid $500 by this kid. for.a 6 months deferment. The t+. gets kmocked off in California and gets some time. He squawks and tells who has paid him and how much.. They immediately grab the kid. Jones made them defend him. -He goes before Judge ' Be But two days before the trial Judge B. loses 3 sons overseas. ‘ The only 3 children in his family. He hears the trial and finds the kid guilty and the judge gives him 15 yeers. ‘The Judge gave him ell he covld to run con- secutively. The kid had no record.. Good kid. We went to bat for: him to try to do something for him. ie went to offering money from tom Ulark up on down. ‘the Juége was so prejudiced, so bitter thet he geve him en un- reasonable sentence. "“e have had no luck,. the kid is still in. ' Looks like somebody like. Clark or Mannegan could get him out. They wont budge an inch now, they eventually will but they won't yet. (Remaining part of record casual conversation). 7 Majority of conversation inaudible, concerns discussion of slot machines. “losing remarks by Guthrie that if arrangements could be made with big boys in Chicago to start as they have arranged it, they could start in the county and el) make big money. co TELEPHONE CALL FROM PAUL JONES IN CHICAGO TO GEORGE BUTLER, NOVEMBER 3, 1946, OPERATOR 6440 in CHICAGO Docld: 322741873 Page 276
| HW 50529 cA at -26- MEETING BETWEEN PAUL R. JONES, JACK KNAPP, PAT WANNING, SHERIFF-ELECT STEVE GUTHRIE, DALLAS COUNTY y~ EN DETECTIVE GEORGE BUTLER, DALLAS PO- LICE DEPARTMENT, HELD AT HOME OF STEVE GUTHRIE, DALLAS, TEXAS, NOVEMBER 7, 1946. We heve told STEVE that he's going to heve a clean administration end that we're going to guice him and not embarrass him in any way, shepe, or form. The pro- gram is just this , horse booking, slot machines, dice, numbers, everything. etre going to keep’it clean. We're going to teke over quietly. We're not going to embarrass him. We've got ebout a month end a half left before he takes office, end it will teke a month end a nalf to get things set up. Now, on that starting immediately, I've got something to sey about that. —_ you start immediately you're gonne immediately have trouble with some of thes people, got ea month and e nalf. we've got to get a building to service and house We've se machines, these slots and marble tables and all. thes Well, that may be true. ®etll pick a locel men who will be the front men for that. So far as everybody knows, he's the man who's putting these machines in, the local man. We put the money up and train him anc advise him and show him how to set up. Heve you got that man? KNAPP: Well, we've got a lot of prospects. le have got 4 half dozen. M: Ks cn oe zw ie] 'd oe You can't go out on the street.. Then it leeks out and he's preparing and ar- ranging. You know what I mean? We got e helf dozen. I'de rather weit. I'é rather weit too. * You can't be too hasty about these things. I'd rather wait anc sacrifice. I'é rether secrifice two or three months. Rell, my idea in starting, end this is the only reason. When he goes in, he's gonne close everything. He's got a pretty good point there. I want him to close this men too. See whet I meen? Now, tnis man's not gonna get active. Meybe he's only going to have a half dozen machines going by the time this man takes office. When this man tekes office, he €loses everything. DoclId: 322741873 Page 23 %,
Ke P: -27- This man too. Everything goes down. He closes all the operators. This man will stop, too, which he actually will be stopped. Then he starts out egain. He's gonna start first. He sterts first. See whet I mean? I don't think it exposes you so if you throw a man in business who hasn't been in business before as soon as he takes office. But could you come out now with four or a half dozen machines under this pre- sent system. : Yes, under this present administration. I can come out with eight or ten mach- ines. | I can get the County Judge to go to BILL DECKER end tell BILL DECKER. I can t go to BILL. DECKER myself anc tell him I want to run e few machines. He's going out; he's got two more months "lL went to get you ea little money, BILL." You see, then theyr'e gonne be spotting for the machines, I see ° When I telk to the County Judge, I'm not promising for nothing. I telk to the County Judge just like I do the Sheriff. The nes net are approved by the County or Stete, now do they go about it? iat es s? Who do they see? Is there eny kind of county charge or tax. #100 tax on each one and the Council allows the machines. Oh no, it's fixed with the Vice Souad. For the machine, in other words It isn't e thing that's legitimately open or anything? e 4 It's open but - GEORGE: It's over—looked. n eo It's protected. ‘ Thetts what I mean. It's over-—looked. I uncerstand when they call in cown there, they go out and pick up. Pick up a few. When they've got e drive on? ihen they've got the neat on? VPublicized by the newspepers. That's right. Then tney pick up a few and they teke pictures of them breaking ‘em up, you know. HW 50529 DBocld:322741673 Page 29
wont 4 .e¥% el: Ea ee twat ce FF aes eo Twa lay abe a = Pea ete ~28~ M: I see. G;  Gne thing Itd like to ask PAUL here. He's pretty much a planner from whet I hear him say end pretty wise in the way of politicians, etc. Working for the city like I do and knowing how more or less vicious some of these boys are in the local set-un, I just wonder how he would go ebout moving in. I know almost in my mind thet he has plans alreedy mede within the organization thet they have. How are you going about moving in? P: There'll be no gim-play because I can teke BURNS. S: Well, now, there's some rough boys. . P: I know but BURNS will go with me. AIL] right, when BURNS goes with me, that eliminates AL MEADOWS and those fellows. Se IG MASLIN TTT - uw Well, l know AL MEADOWS and all them. They're three times losers and all that. They've got the wrong kind of neople hooked up in some of their busi- nesses, but - , Ps MEADOWS is the heed of the slot machines. Well, there's been four killings here, and you know it yourself - Paul, there's four boys here that'll kill anybody when they get ready, end all they heve to do is get 10,000, £20,000 or ¥30,000, end they'll do it. And that's the boys that itm worried ebout, those four. I'm not worried. I mean I can take cere of myself. I can shoot tem and they're paid for. But they're going to meke it rough on me by shooting somebody else, I'm afraic. fs oe G: The thing we're getting into - Mor sis ae They've been here and have the thing? P: No, they don't have it. ot ta oe No, they don't nave it. ‘They're the trigger men. P: The muscle man. They're thieves. They even steal slot machines from the Syndicate and sell ‘em back to them. ‘M: That cen be eliminated. That you'll find anywhere. S: Oh, 4 don't care how we eliminate ‘em. M: Regerdless of where you go, you find thet in smell and big counties. A cer- tein emount of petty thieves, you know thet's ell they are. They should be run out of town anywey. Ss: I know end I intend to run them out. ‘AW 50529) Docld:32241873 Page 30
i) mn is) eo an HL ‘d oe -20- That's where you come in. I really want to run them out. The Chief of Police and everybody else, that's their business. If they are undesirable characters, they nave no business in the city. No, end I don't want them here. So we see to it thet they are run out of town ourselves. MR. MANNING, here's the deal. Call me Pat. O.%. Pat, this set-up here. There's a boy named LOIS GREEN.” There's a boy nemed JOHNNIE, GRASSAFFI, JUNIOR THOMAS, WAC BARNES, 6nd who else? Monk Wright. MONK WRIGHT. Now, those boys are ell up in the money now. They should be run out of.town. I know they ought. Now, I feel like I can get rid of these boys. I would like to get rid of ‘em for good. i would like to take them out here and get rid of them, that's what I want to do, and if I possibly can, I will. But I just nave to rum them out, they're gonne make it awful misereble for me. They nit. They go either to San Antonio or Houston. They've got tie-ups all ov- er Texes. I'm just telling you this because it's a thought. They go out here and get these boys, and they'll meke them come in here and hit me and then run. Hit end run. Blow a safe, shoot somebody, take out. ell, it's hard to keep those guys out when you don't know who they are. Jn other words, they zo to Houston, end pick up a boy and say "Come on, we got a place cased. Go and knock it off and run." So whet do you think of thet deal? well, Sheriff, it's like 1 told you in the beginning on that. Nobody in their right mind is going to come in here. i think you got something there, too. Beceuse I know all these boys. I've hed AL MEADOWS end all of them come to me. They come to me with all kinds of propositions, end I told them I don't want no part of it. "Some guy's selling slot,mechines, "they come tell me. "We'll go get all of his machines. How much will you give us for it?" I tell them I don't went these machines. Where do they get these machines? - | HW 50529 Docld:322413873 Page 31
HW 50529 ~30- Some other operator. They tell us, "We'll go -" In fact they did go out here to old lady SNYDER'S place, you know. Backed a truck up there and took all of her equipment out. ‘ook it ell. An operetor here in town backed a truck up and took all of the ecuipment. But AL MEADOWS and JOHNHIE and DELOTS GREEN and those people ere not going to bother you in no shape or form, “7 senneme But here's whet I really had on my mind, is the locel gambling syndicete, BINTON and MILLER and those fellows. That's right. They tie up. They make a big lot of cash, you see, and they might not want to take this lying down. They might want to Fight, you see? The take right now - I know this, the take now - net for one man out of the policy game is one million a year net. That's his net, Well, have you no such thing as a mouthpiece for this syndicate: Yes, but he's gone. de don't Stey here. Theré's about 25 or 30 people trying to gethim, end he steys up in Montene. He left here when the town went down before, when they had a little trouble down here. They all ran out of town. They closed everything down. He ain't come back here and as long as I'm here, he won't come beck. But he's still running the town. He's still rumning the town. From Montena. He won't come back because his number two men got killed here. What's his name, BINYON? PBINYON, BERNIE BINYON. * Nee rncren stk LE stot EME RSE : Have you ever heard ebout hin up there? No, never have. He's e pretty big men. I'd like to meke notes. Do you mind? No, heve you got somethi to mske them on? 3 Py Docld: 322741873 Page 32
HW 50529 Let's get him a piece of. paper. 7 Here you are. : | Jot these nanes down. I can write on this. Bennie Binyon, B-I-N-Y-ON, You mentioned one of the present fellows here. What was his name, ANGELOTTI? co, Ts he an Italien boy? Yes, Boy, be's a Killer. What's his last neme? GRASSAFFI 2 |. This JOHNNIE, tough, is just a locel boy. Yes, but he's in he money. a He's the one who does the killing for *em. He's the trigger mane | He handles dope. ‘He's got three or four whores working for him. He's got three Cadillacs. that cruise up end down the streets with gals in:'em. Where are the city. police? Where do .you come in? . oof this is a different phase of the work tha n I'm in. Itm on vacation now. I'm gonna have him transferred to the Vice Squad. I don't ‘know. - They pick these girls up. . They've e policy “here of picking. them up regularly and letting then pay fines and suggesting to them to-discontinue. It's a regular set-up. There's 1400 of them a month go through there. A situation like that a month certainly departs the law, IL mean, that's the time you should go right on through and prosecute, beceuse they are a menace to society. When you get in office, you should go out end bring them in. After all, you got.a law heres You don't have to tske things like that from those petty hoodlums. For vhat? They -only embarrass you agsin while you're in office. Maybe the Sheriff,ridicules him going out in the street and shoot- ing up ¥ain Street, whatever your main street is here.: DoclId: 322741873 Page 33
M: ° -32- St Oh, they do it too. They do it. Walked up here - You know what happened no so very long ago? This LOIS GREEN, he’s power crazy. y a P, That's the one 1 was telling you about. Let me tell it; it's 4 funny story.! Si: About the street car deal? Is that what you mean? : No, I'm gonne tell about shooting this guy through the house. S: Let me tell him about this street car deal. Ms 4t home they get caught every time they walk the straet. We have certain squad. over there, you know. They come out and get some of these certain fellows here. Every time they walk, they won't let them walk the street. Put 'en right in their car, right to the bureau. Keep 'em there for two or three nights, unless they get sprung before. Every time they walk the street. S: I'll show you how tough this GREEN thinks he is, and he is tough. He gets on the front on the car track, street car track, and the street car man rings his bell for him to get off, and he just sits right on it. So the street car man just keeps ringing his bell for him to get off, and he wouldn't get off. So finally LOIS stopped his car right on the track, got out, pulled his gum out, and went up and broke the window and said "If you ring that bell again, I'il blow your head off", M: Well, he's not tough; he's crazy. S: He's been tough. I mean. We know what net's done. Ug Mt He's probably out of his mind. He belongs in e cell. That's right. i ¥ g S: That's right. Ms: The toughest guys I know, you never get a word out of them for four hours. Those are the tough guys that I know. The guy that you just described as a tough guy, he's no tough guy. G: Now here'w what's - They should be driven out of town or kept in the can, and you can tell them thet you'll see to it thet he is. G: Here's what STEVE don't want end here's what's happened. The reason this guy is running around like he is. He does that promiscuously, yousee. Like PAUL was Tixing to tell you ebout him shooting up e house with a machine-gun down here. Well, he didn't do it, but had it done. He'll come up and say, “Yeah, I did it, MR. BUTLER. I'm not a bit sorry. You would heve done it yourself if he had done you that way." jell, he cen go right down there end get those indictments quashed. They don't want to have to put up with that kind of Geal. in other words, you end the District Attorney have been elected on a HW 50529 DBocld:322741673 Page 34
D ae ae) ee ies} a He As) me) Me HW 50529 ~33- more or less clean up ticket. To get rid of the gang, and it's been a source of emberrassment to the Police Department. We file on them and they go down there and you say “bingo” - They never put one in the penitentiary. You remember we had a new District Attorney elected. All right, so you bring in a murder indictment ageinst GREEN, or you bring in any kind of e warrant on Green that you want on him, end he's not going to get quashed in that . grand jury, not under WILL. £ don't think so. | 4 know he's not. L don't think so either, not under WILL. He's not going to get it. Tell Mr, MANNING about this bird shooting up the house Paul, you had some Er ene story there you wanted to tell. (PAUL JONES tells the story of GREEN'S going to the home of a dope edadiar, sitting out in front in the car waiting until the man comes home. GHEEN doesn't see the man until he's going rizht in the Goor, so they go around to the side of the house and get a view through one window of about where the man is. He then shoots the man through the well clear through the side of the house.) What does that sound like to the Police Department? The next day they see what has happened here. Something wrong with the Police Department. Yes, where are they? 7 7 : This is all so petty, so small. The lay, they don't go at night. The only man you got to worry about, STEVE, - is the fellow who goes to church every Sunday and you don't know who he kill- ede That's the guy you got to worry about, end you don't know that he killed anybody. You know yourself how many have been killed this year. I don't want any of that stuff on me. Ordinarily when two veople like that tangle, like LOIS GREEN kills POOLE or POOLE kills LOIS GREEN, they don't even mention it in the paper. Why should they mention it? Here's a cduple of dope fiends. One killed the other. Well, they encourage it in Chicago, because that's the only way you can do it. Let them take care of themselves. Let them kill each other. Docld: 322741873 Page 35
HW 50529 =3L- But that has nothing to do with it. Those things are petty. Now, when you get in office, you know all of the prominent and most popular petty thieves. I know them all. ‘You can call them in immediately and lay the lew down to them. You know how to talk to them. It's your business. I sure do. I know how to talk to them. That's all. . Well, let's let him alone. STEVE can tend to them. Oh, I know. That's his business. Really the only thing you men are interested in is a legitimate go? That's right. It's just a matter of our business is all it is. Well, you've branched out, I understand, a little bit. What do you mean? Well, some of these other towns, like New Orleans, meybe. The same type of orgenization in other words that He's proposing to us. “ell, they all get slong. Yes, that'w what I mean. If it works, it should work. One hand watches the other, and it keeps business in the family. That way things are done, whether it's in New York, Chicago, or New Urleans. Nell, you see, there may be some Gifference in the temperament of the people in Chicago and down here. No. Something else, here as it is, end I don't like the set-up, the District Attorney is tied up with the Sheriff and the Council, etc., und you cent! indict anybody in Dallas County for anything. If they've got the money. In other words, there's a fix for any indictment in Dalles, Texas. All you got to do is have the money. Now, 4 don't went to tie myself down as to where-~— +n other words, if PAUL keeps himself clean and if his men keep DoclId: 322741873 Page 36
HW 50529 ~35- themselves clean and don't get into any trouble, everything s all right. “ But if they get into trouble, I'll indict them as quick as 1 will anybody, and — I want them to know that. But, in other words, I want that clear. I told you STEVE that I wouldn't tolerate it myself. I know we don't in Chicago. We don't have that kind of people around. There's one thing we won't tolerate at all, and thet's thieves, murderers, dope peddlers. Those things ere out. te don't have nobody around us, nor will let anybody be around us that are connected with it in eny way, shave, or form. I understand. Oh, I understand that. KHER KEKHHK BF As we are to keep our slot machines going, because we absolutely have no love for them at all. What do you think about thet firm? I don't know enything about it. You don't know anything ebout it? I just met MR. JONES not so long ago. Well, you've kinde sold us, PAUL has, on his know here. In other words, his knowledge of the town end political set-up. He does. He knows everything thet's going on. That's wnet I had heerd. Yeah, he knows. | Perticularly the act couple of days. He's a pretty good fellow. We know ourselves that, ‘being a law enforcement officer and a yvood one, 1 feel like I en, Ii know Iam. "“e know thet the money is going to be going somewhere. We know there's going to be dice games, and so I don't feel badly ebout talking about it, because I like to play cards, maybe shoot a little dice myself, and, you know, at the right time and right place. But we have got - Another thing you mignt be able to help PAUL on. Naturally, I'm interested in a good offer. I want to know aporoximetely what it would be worth to me to put this thing over, beceuse I walked my feet off end I worked like 2 dog, and it's worth an awful lot to me to take e chence, for it's teking e chence in a4 sort of way. In other words, I want to know what it's going to be worth to me. Docld: 322741873 Page 37
‘HW 50529 ea oe q> Cr. oe rg tn ae me w 1 wr os -36- fell, you can't say. But I'm sure it'll be worth your while. As you can see from STEVE'S house, he needs a little furniture and how much it's going to take to get it. All the ready cash he nad went into his cam- paign. You can get all of the furniture you went, but you can't get that long green. I spent everything I had. I know thet it has been more or less of an embarrassment to him to have to stand around here. If“he stays around us, he'll be doing well in ten or fifteen years, I'll say. Everybody's heppy. kverybody's got beautiful homes, living comfortably, go away a month or two at a time. That's all I cowld tell you. Like 1 say, I won't lie to you or tell you what you can look for or expect; - Because I wouldn't want to lie to you. I don’t like to do business that way. Now, look. 4et me tell you this. I want to get this straight with you, PAUL. in other words, the only thing that you are going to expect from me is pro- tection, that's all? Thet's all. But wait, you can go e little further. The only thing you expect from me is protection on gambling, nothing else. That's ell? Thatts all. Nothing else. I want to get thet streizht. Something I'm ageinst, that's dope peddlers, pickpockets, hired killers. That's one thing I cant stomach and that's the one thing the fellows up there won't stand for, things like thet. Tey even go to heedouartérs anc ask them why they don't do something about ite ‘ they don't, they say a change will be mede and it will be done. Oh, we're * azainet things like that. It really con't help the office. It doesn't help you out on the street. Well, now, I'm going to be offered a big sum of money here in a few days by the local people, by somebody who's not ‘exactly one of the locel boys but who can take up where the locel boys left off. I won't tell you the sum, but I'll tell you it's way up in the money. Now, personally, 1 don't know whether they are good orgenizers or not. I don't know whether they can orgenize this thing. I want Somebody. tag tls businesss. It don't mean it'll last longer. The most money it comes but don't last long. Itts like I told you. Now this is whet 1 told him. I seid first, he's not. going to be in want. tven if we ere six months getting sterte ed, we're not going to let him be in want. I mean like furniture ané things like that, STEVE, and your incidentals. These ere minor things. DoclId: 322741873 Page 338
IHW 50529 cr 'd Ms ws oe ws = =~37- Well, I know. I told STEVE, I said, we may be so slow that he may wonder when are they going to get all of these things started? When is PAUL going to do all of these things, that he said he wes going to do? We are only going to do them as fast as we Can and not jeopardize you end ourselves, and if we cen make e million dollers a month in a business-like manner, we are going to make it. If we can only make a hundred dollers a month, if that's the way it is, then it's a hundred, and that's ell it is. But your're not going to be jeopardized nor are we going to jeopardize ourselves beceuse we're not money hungry. Now, if 4 come in here like I told you and suppose I get you a flat proposition that you're to give it all to me for a flat sum, we'll say #50, 000. I', going to give you $50,000 the day you teke office, and everything's mine. Suppose the strength isn't here. Suppose I'm having a lot of trouble getting these things because you've got to do this in a business-like manner. I've got $50,000 I've got to-zet. Now, I'm going to get it if I have to sacrifice you to get it. I've elready given you $50,900. You're right. And when you 14 con at night, thet pillow is gol to feel like it's got bricks ¥ ’ & in it becai se you're not going to be able to sleep. You've got that pressure on you. DSecause I'm going to be at that front door. Sure, Once you get organized, you don't have to worry about money. By erything will roll in a nice quiet manner, in a business-like way. You don't, he don't heave to worry about it personally. Everybody will be happy, I'm sure. Do you think that there's any way that they can find out that there's « tie-up between here and up there in Chicago? No. ae : 21 . So fer es wetre concerned, we don't want it. Naturallyiwe don't want it, I'm sure. . There'll be noboay know. Wetre not going to come from Cnicaga down here. In other words, they'll all be local boys? All locel fellows. tie're leaving that to him. He's representing us. Ali right, now. I've talked to PAUL. #11 we're doing is trying to keep then, like he calls, the muscle men, those petty - These people can be called in, you know. You've heard of the Texas Rengers? Yes DoclId: 322741873 Page 39
HW 50529 G. en 4 ‘ “y ' e ' 4 L \e jn ¢ ‘ t e ~38- Hell, look. PAUL thinks or says thet he can teke care of them. I've got to be sure of that because if they think that I'm crooked. They think if 1'm taking any money they can go to the Attorney General and have me impeached. STEVE, es I told you before, i Gon't even want you to admit to yourself, let alone anybody else. 1 don't want you to even admit to yourself that you're taking any money. Then, the Hangers didn't do nothing about it? . No, but what 1'™ trying to get at, can PAUL tee care of the Rangers? That's it. . ; Be told me that. But without all of these promises and assurances that he would take care of these boys, I wouldn't even think about coming here. I mean, the thig is as, end it should ‘be, thet you wouldn't worry ebout a thing. Now, when I come dewn here, I cen't go beck end tell my group ell of these thigs go back and lie to 'em, and sey he's all right, he's going to take care of everything. I got to know whet I'm talking ebout. That's why I make notes and teke names back, so i know what I'm telking ebout. Sow, that's just it. Another thing, the new D.A. thet's going in, PAT. He's @ young boy, GI, conscientious, got money, « lot, above the averaze, well above the averege. He con't cere ebout being District Attorney, 4e wants to be Governor. Now he's going to try to make ea name for himself, you can see thet. Wheat do you think ebout the possibilities? PAUL seys he can get him, Row, what do you think about the possibilities of getting to é« man like thst? Do you think it can be done? Oh, certainly. Yes. He'll have to play ball with someone. Lo you know him? | \ Why, sure. He knows him. People you know, you Gantt come out in the cold. As a matter of fact, PAT only supvorts me. I know that, but I wes just esking. All of these people heve to be talked to. It don't matter who they are, they have to be epproeched by certein people. There are certsin weys of doing it. fetll see, I've never been in politics before. So I'm as ignorant as that piece of cactus out there about politics, end I've got to know « little bit about them. In other words, I don't want to get my head cut off, end you don't. t's like I told yous You don't went me ~ Maybe I spent last night with the strict Attorney. tou don t want me to go to the District Attorney and say got the Sheriff fixed. DoclId: 322741873 Page 40
No. : So don't ask meif I got the District Attorney fixed. Oh, I'm not trying to ask ‘thet. But, see,-I'm always afraid of GONZAULLAS, Long. fiolf GONZAULLAS. You've heard of him. - . (a eatenetmtiean gg STEVE, listen, if I didn't have ~ let me tell you-something. . If Ll didn't have the District Attorney, it's common sense I wouldn't want you. - hat good would the Sheriff be? He wouldn't-be here, because what good are you if. you haven't got the others happy. : . 1 say that I'm just ignorant... _ That's the wey it is up'in Chicago. bverybody's happy. Ifthe District Attorney indicts you, you. never even contact’ certein people... You never: even see him. 4f you see them. out: on the street, you wouldn't: even know them... I wouldn't make en attempt even to come down here if'I didn't»think fora min- ute that he knew what he was doing. te SR, Nell, you’ know PAUL hes been here for sometime.. He's been active and quietly getting around. “But I've made some checks about PAUL-here awhile. back uyself. I think he's told you about it, end. I know that he hasn't done. any- thing outside, you know, that we could pin'on him. You know there's: some good people here. . oa 7 You're not through checking him yet? Well; we can't afford to. JACK'S recommended ‘him very highly, end that's good enough for me. _ . . Oh, JACK'S: a good boy, I can tell that. .But another thing, too, this group that. 1 just beat.. They hate-me. . I. don't ‘know why. Because they were beat, I ; guess. -I slipped up on.'em, end I. chiselled:them and everything, and they. hate HW 50529 me: end they're ‘going to.be after.me. .-I know they are. They're gonna. be bit- ing, so I'm going to-have to be doubly careful. a , SO, What STEVE was telling you about that bunch. heting: him, ‘and. that ‘they were gonna set every kind of trap. . oo oo wo, ; They know he is the. boss and they ell have to. respect: him. He-don't have to worry about that. You shouldn't worry about none’of ‘then.:. All of: those you worry about, I'l) guarantee: you they've got sleepless nights already. just wor- rying about what you're going-to do already. Just like GARRETT calling you end telling you what’ a Buddy he was of yours. I'l] guarantee: you they'11 -all be -your buddies. Fe They'll all be.on your side and fight to. be-on your side. They'll give. you deals and offer you things. They'Il all come to you. Ss DoclId: 322741873 Page 41
HW 50529 -L0- People have been here from all over the country. ‘ord got sround, you know, that STEVE don' tt like’ this local ‘crowd and is gonna run then oute - how much money is spent for dice in your corporation? 1 don't know what the set-up is. I haven't talked to PAUL. -1 don't know what he had in mind. We up there, we don't believe in it. One thing I'm against, always was against. I don't like, like 1 was telling you last- night,. five or six joints in the radius of six blocks, a joint every block. . That's one thing i‘have always talked against. - I like one: big spot end that's all.. Out in the country, cut ofthe city entirely. 4n the city maybe you. have a-dice game in one block and two blocks maybe you have another dice’ geme in one hlock.and two blocks maybe you have another dice game, horse betting, what you call the book parlors, or whatever you call. them. the way it has looked: here, ‘the ‘Sheriff: “who: iz the present Sheriff, SMOOT SCHMID, made an agreement with the city and with the City Council: and: the menager, if he would stey out of the city, they would stay out of the county. 5o the Sheriff never comes in the city and the city never goes in the county. But he is paid, the Sheriff is paid out of the city, that he will have no: dice games in. the county. Now, how about that? Well, that's under the present. set-up. . Yeah, now, what do you think? . Do- you think ‘somebody! Fs gonne etary hollering when we think we'll put: some places in -the- county? . ‘Vie're only gonna. put one: plece in. . Well, I know. All we need is one spot. That's all.: 1tm in fevor of one big. spot and that's Sorta like the Top of the Hill. ‘Heve you ever heard of the Top of the Hill. No, i'n not. acquainted with this: country at all. Oh, 1 ‘giess there's a: $10,000 or $20,000 limit. ROGER LACY and all of these. big people go out there. It's the biggest game. | in the coumty? No, out of the county. It's 20 feet out of the comty, but all VYallas goes . there because there's no place. . There's no such.thing as a big joint place in tom at ell. There was one place in Cock and Lee County and you could throw a stone over there. : The place is Docld: 322741873 Page 42?
HW 50529 afford to: lose, unless: they” can afford. to. gemble. -41- there and they all windup with the City of Chicago... : The. Loop, all Chicago and all surrounding suburbs wind up right in this Lee County. -- There's: Just one place and there they all wind up every’ nights The. “ity! 8 _ closed, ‘it! s quiet, and there's nothing going there. They're all in the city. ~All the hotels have got dice games in them. . Maybe there's about six or eight hotels running every. day.. : a You got no jurisdiction in. the city, do you? ' Oh, yeah, I'm over the entire county. I'm over the city end the county. You put the heat on those. All I've got to.do is.tell them to run ‘off, if 1 want to, in the city or the county. But the wey the thing has been: run; there's no’ dice ‘games: in the county, they're all in: the city. But your ides is*to get inthe county. to get the: ‘city. re You teke the Chicken Bar out here. - If: that wes the only big dice game. Where? The Uhicken Bar. Oh, men, that would be a set-up. Take that Chicken Bar there and put you a. dice game in there. Oh, mant We don't want his pitty patter.. lig: don! + went. nobody. dn. there: uiless: they can & However, PAUL,. that's a ttle close in, that place there, don't you ‘think? It's’ in the county. Yeah, I. know it is. 7 And it's on an intersection. It's gonna: be a good set. “up. the city boys, the Dallas. Syndicate muscled” a. Fort Worth man out somehow. BROWNING, a fellow by the name of BRONING. who. ‘is way up in the. moneys ep par RE ao ceca got a piece. of. that game. That's the one I was telling you about. wh rw er ens - They’ had-it just in Tarrent. County, which is Fort: Forth, just across the ‘road, DoclId: 322741873 Page 43
Sea eS a CR wa A ae tt trae -£2- just 30 or 40 feet from the Dallas County line, and the Dallas boys muscled in somehow. -I don't know how they ‘did it in ‘his county and‘ pushed him out, -and ‘now the Dallas boys have the’ biggest: percentage of the teke of that: game, tell, the reason for that, FRED has gone broke and many times out there. FRED, every night after they close, he brings. all of the money in and -bets it on the horses the next day. . a - co He's probably the biggest individual horse better in the country. It's one of the first games I. ever heard of that they'll take “his check. . There's-been times out there when he couldn't pay off in-cash, but they take his. check. because he was capable of raising 4% ix: the next morning end he's paid off a lot of times -out there with a: check. But it's a big, big game. And he had to take this man in for money. DALTON? . Well, I wanted to try. to explain that you'so you would know that the county has never had any dice games. They've had some sneek :gamese You see, I try to be frank and honest with you. I came here; ~I want to listen to you. I reelly want to be honest and frank...That's what: you want, isn't it? Sure. I don't rim any.of those places: up there, gambling or anything: like that. I got my om: territory. I got certain business:that.I teke:care of “for: the last 16 or 17 years... -I do.very, well, living comfortably: worry. about nothing. ‘As far as the set-up, these places like dice. rooms or ‘horse.rooms:and things like that, that's like snother department I: would call-it: ‘I have-a-fellow sitting here with me thatruns a certain game... Hescould just give-it to you'in-a min- ute. He could tell you what: to expect: and all. that sort of stuff, you see. But I have my own concession, and that's the end. I see.. That's why I'm listening. . They send me here and ‘say; 'Well go on and see what they have and come back!. and.might. be if: youre happy with ‘the thing and all, . L come back. and talk turkey, tell you what to expect, that the dice will be best for you and what should “be done in that deal. That's right. He's got.to because I don't ‘know. PAUL knows more about. the set-up than we do. - --Of .course, I know the things they're doing up north and all of that. Instead HW 50529 DBocld:322741673 Page 44
of having ten or twelve like they used ‘to have years ego, every other block. It was like a fine dress show, and none of them do. any good,: just a lot of. noise, alot of racket. and that's.ell.: So they. eliminated all of ‘that. The City.of Chicago. has been so clean the last ten or twelve: years you’ couldn't buy a book in-Chicago.. You have. got to go to New York also. . You can't walk the street with a scratch in your pocket. If. your cops: would’ see the: scratch | sheet in your pocket, they could put you in jail. . St What do they file on them for? | . Ms Pardon? . : S: What do they. charge "em with. co Vembling . Disorderly conduct. Ss ‘Oh, is that ‘right? . @ Disorderly conduct, not gambling. They see four or five. fellows on the corner of a news-stand in New York, they'll put them all in. jail, ell four of then. S: I didn't know that. . Mz: Oh, sure. LaGuardia cleaned thet up pretty good. 53: The fellow was pretty good. Mz Sure.: Lot of the fellows had one big spot out of. the: city. They had a Riviera - there and. they would make’ seven million or ten million a years. only on one spot, and the city" s nice end clean. Ss They booked it. all there too? B Yes, all.. One spot. That's what you should have here to keep the town nice and clean. . | ; S: Grand Prairie, Grand Prairie, GEORGE. Grand Prairie, wouldn't that: be ‘a spot - for them. ; a. : Gs Yeah. | YW: You get out in the outskirts... You get yourself a nice spot, and thet's what you | want, one spot. . You got nothing to’ contend with.: You got that one.spot. «You got it going good, you got a place going. os : tA ee You got a club. ft * oo | ‘Oh, yeah, The plece I had ‘reference to. They have about thirty slots around there. They have seven dice tables and a-huge room for booking. ‘It-used to be | a country club, golf course, you know. They bought that out. Jt's a huge HW 50529 DBocld:322741673 Page 45
= f bis t i ' HW 50529 -LL~ pbuilding. iow they ‘have their own dining room, have three cooks up: there. That's the only place. ‘So far as Chicago is concerned,. that's out. There's . - nothing going .in Chicago. : The only thing we have in Uhicago. there is what. we call -a Commission. office. . We heve a‘ room’ meybe about three times this size. They go in there and bet on.the basepall.e They have a ticker and: the. basket- pall and footbali. That's a big thing all over in Chicago. fell, it's trying to get big here, but: nobody knows how to run it. . They got footbell ‘cards-and a few things. . ; iie have .some very good. men on that in Chicago.. They're the tops in that field. What do: you think ebout the policy. here? Or do you iow anything ebout it? . Well, that's my business. Policy. Is it? Well, now, they've got‘about eight wheels here. :-. Policy is my business. I've been doing ‘that for: 17: years. It's awful big here. There are some of the wheels here that are running two:drawings a ‘day. -I told you that last night. He said four or five, and:I saic they can't run ‘but two a day. AM. and P.Me : : : . os That's right,: 7.00. in the morning and 7.00 at night. Yes, they do. - - Viell, it might pay- . a 8 fiel1, in Chicago they run: at 2.00. o'clock ‘in the afternoon. . They have their first drawing, then they go out and-give the veople the results. Then. they. come back at 8.20 and have the second Grawinge . .- .I think’ they play a day ‘behind here all the time. They rum: $3,000 or $4,000 a.cay- ‘What? Policy. That's all? You mean ali the wheels? Oh, yeah. . One mane dust one man makes $3,000 or $4,000 a-day on that. You mean they handle —- Docld: 322741873 Page 46
t i fl ' , 4 | ' ! . h5= Oh no, that's just the percentage this one man gets. He gets about 45 or 50 per cent. . ; . This man. we're talking about draws around a million.in a year, that: one we're talking about. In eight wheels? Tene Ten wheels. - Close to $60,000 a years $60,000. .. Maybe mores inite people don't play the policy. We don't have them in Chicago... They don't know the first. thing about it. They don't know what they're talking about ‘beceuse ‘its always written’ up. as a pemny or nickel game and white people won't take bets, but. niggers. have got to It's always two bits here, mostly. . Two bits? You play two bits. You can play a nickel. Can you play nickel? 7 \ Yeah, 8 nickel ora dime. — How big are the tickets? ; Well, itts a vegular policy-ticket about that ‘long and about that wide... How many numbers on it? Three Towse There's two rows. on one end and: three - . From. what number to what? One to seventy—-eight or ninety» I don't have any idea about the numbers... Here's the only. thing. He don't know a whole. lot because they won't let us close enoughe ne HW 50529 Docld:322413873 Page 47