HW 53716 _ SECRET Sovetskaya Gavan -= that is, where I worked in the Far East in intelligence in the Seventh Navy Fleet. How many Komsomol members were there’ ((Long pause)) Approximately how many? ((Long pause; then, in a low voice:)) About 25; something like that. As Secretary of a Komsomol organization, to whom in your Komsomol work were you subordinate? To one man; in Komsomol work I was subordinate to no one. I was subordinate to the Deputy Chief of Intelligence for Political Affairs, Col BURCHENKO; no one else. .And to whom was Col BURCHENKO subordinate? BURCHENKO == to the Political Department of the Fleet. There must have been someone who guided the Komsomol work of the Fleet. No one ever came to me.... He might not have come ((to you)). BURCHENKO, yes, BURCHENKO looked after the work of the Komsomol organization. There must have been someone above you, if he never came to see you. You must surely know. If you -— as the Secretary -- handled all of the work, you must have made reports to someone else besides BURCHENKO. All the reporting that we did we turned into BURCHENKO. And he participated in all the meetings. DoclId: 327404701 Page 51
HW 53716 _SECRET @ @ -~ 49 = He could have participated as a Party organizer. But with regard to what you said about not turning in anything to anyone other than BURCHENKO, only one conclusion can be made, and that is that you do not know the simplest thing about how the Komsomol organization works, to whom it is subordinate, how it is composed, and you do not know the Regulations, etc. The conclusion can be made that you were not a Secretary, and the question is raised of whether you were in the Komsomol at all. It is as simple as that. Very well, leave it at that. "Very well, leave it at that" -— that is one question. I cannot... understand me... excuse me... you are shoving me, shoving, shoving me on this nonsense... on nonsense. I do not remember. But no, you know that I do not remember and you continue this.... I absolutely am not interested in raising questions ((of things)) which you do not remember. I do not remember. I answer you as it was with me. A person who was in the Komsomol for 11 years and was twice a Secretary must know the simplest things which every Komsomol member knows. It is not a matter of shoving; it is simply that I want to kn®ow if you were a Secretary or not. I have told you. Yes, I was. You answer: "Yes, I was." But this absolutely confirms nothing, because you do not know the DoclId: 327404701 Page 52
HW 53716 Simplest things. Let us take a break, and have something to eat. ( (LUNCH) ) ((Speaking in a low voice, asks for a cigarette) ) Please; you did not ask in the morning. I have been thinking and I have remembered something for confirmation (utochneniye). First, that there was a German Department precisely in 1953. And why "precisely'? Because Nikolay YEGOROV, a case officer, was the Secretary of the Party organization from whom I took over, He worked in the German Department, the Third Department. Therefore, that Nina was from the same department. I am telling you exactly -= the Secretary. Well, again, you have said that you remember for sure that YEGOROV was Secretary of the Party.... Well, the Komsomol organization -- that is what I have in mind. I made a slip. Then you took over.... From Nikolay YEGOROV, who was accepted at that time as a candidate member of the CPSU. Well, did he become a candidate right away? No, not at once; of course not. Once he was accepted as a candidate member, he requested the Komsomol Committee to relieve him as Secretary -- "I already am a candidate member of the Party”.... SECRET DoclId: 327404701 Page 553
HW 532716 ~ 51 - Well, you know that there are candidate members and Party members who continue to be Secretaries of Komsomol organizations. And sometimes they are elected to be Secretaries. By the way, did you hear one of the Soviet jokes when you were there in regard to America? "We have caught up with America in milk" There was something "scabrous" But we have not caught up in meat".... "The bull's phallus (khren) was broken." Well, a good joke; I heard it not long age. Well, let us return to the question of how... or, to put it briefly, are you going to continue to insist that you were Secretary of the bureau of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate? Secretary of the Komsomol organization. Well, if the bureau was elected, then you were Secretary of the bureau. Well, he is not called the Secretary of the bureau, but the Secretary of the primary Komsomol organization. Well, if he has a bureau, he is called the Secretary of the bureau. On the basis of the Regulations, it is written what is meant by “primary organization", by "bureau", etc.. There is a bureau in any organization, both in the Committee and in the primary organization; but he is called Secretary of a Komsomol Committee or Secretary of a Party organization. Let us not get mixed up. DoclId:327404701 Page 54
HW 53716 e ar = 52 = Oh... Komsomol organization... Secretary of a Konmsomol organization; you understand. | He is not called Secretary of the Komsomol Bureau of the MVD, no; he is called Secretary of the primary Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate. Now, the Secretary of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD ~—- that is another thing. But, here and there, there is a bureau in any organization. Well, let us take 1953. How did you get there and so forth? Today, you gave me the name, KORETSKIY . Yes, I have heard this. He was the Chief of Surveillance when there were Departments 2-Z, 2-I. Approximately how many people were there in surveillance? I do not know, I do not know. Well, if you are talking about Komsomol work, I assume that you must tell me that there was a Komsomol Secretary in the Second Chief Directorate. To whom did the Komsomol members of KORETSKIY(('s office)) belong? KORETSKIY was not there when I was. There was the UODK, headed by BOYKOV. They had Komsomol organizations in the departments of the UODK. Then there was a Komsomol organization for the entire UODK and this Komsomol organization of the UVODK was subordinate to the Party Committee of the MVD. Again, to the Party Committee... The Komsomol Committee of the MVD. ™ DoclId: 327404701 Page 55
SE @ ag - 53 - A. And it had no relation to yours at all? B. No, no, absolutely; and, likewise, the Party organization. A. Well, how many departments were there in the Second Chief Directorate in 1953¢ B. There were nine departments, and the tenth was the UODK. A. Alright; we will take nine departments. Besides the departments, there were other units. B. Well, the Secretariat, the enrollment group.... A. Well, if you presume that each of the departments has one Komsomol member, then there are already nine of them. There was at least one member for each department. B. No, in the English Department there was not one. I can count them.... A. You do not have to for the time being. We will return.to this. I want to determine more or less accurately the number.... I think your number, 15, is not right. B. 15, 15 absolutely right Komsomol members; a small organization. A. Well, we will return to our old question -= how did youreally get on the rolls of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD? As soon as you came to work in the Second Chief Directorate, you came to the Komsomol Committee of the MVD; you spoke with the giris; then you spoke with someone else; when did you become permanently enrolled? B. Well, at the time I spoke with the girl of the enrollment group of the Komsomol Committee. SEGRET HW 532716 DBocld:32404701 Page 56
HW 532716 This is not all; that you spoke with the girl and that you showed your Komsomol card does not mean that you are on their rolls. They put me on the rolls; they issued me a card. I do not remember. I do not remember. I am simply telling how it was. ((Asks B to describe how the Komsomol organization is organized, because == as a Secretary -= he should know this.)) What are the responsibilities of the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate? To manage the work of the Komsomol organization. This is general -- "to manage the work of the KomsSomol organization". He collects dues, organizes Komsomol meetings, conducts the work of the bureau of the Komsomol organization. What is included in this work? ' Conduct lectures, discussions, verifies the members' participation in their departments and in the units, controls political training. Well, here -=- you are the Secretary of a Komsomol organization, and you should have political instruction too. What did you personally study as a Komsomol member in 1953 and 1954, as Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate You do not pose the question quite properly -- not as Secretary, although elected, I studied like all of the employees of the First Department. I studied in the department. All of the Komsomol members studied in their own departments. The girls from the typing pool studied in the Secretariat. SE DoclId: 327404701 Page 57
- 55 ~- JAY I am asking what you were studying. B. In 1953 and 1954, I was studying foreign policy. A, And what were the other people of the First Department studying? B. We had two or three groups. The Party Organization of the Department decided what subject would be studied. They would decide how many groups were to be established -- one group would study the foreign policy of the Soviet Government; the second group might study one of the works of LENIN; for example, Materialism and Imperio-Criticism. Every year they decided what was to be studied and what groups would be organized. A. You said that you had a foreign policy course. B. Yes. A. You yourself studied? B. Yes. A. Would it not be proper to assume that you would study something else. You had just completed the Institute of International Relations; what new thing could you learn in a foreign policy group? Who will teach you”? You had just recently completed the Institute of International Relations B. No... you understand... foreign policy -- you are studying current problems which arise, current problems; you study what is going on in a country now. A,. Well, I think there were also groups that studied current politics, but you had outgrown this kind of group.... HW 532716 DBoclId:32404701 Page 58 SECRET
HW 532716 - 56 - Foreign policy. ...¥ou are saying "foreign policy", but you are explaing it as "current events", "current events". There is a big difference. I have in mind, "foreign policy", "foreign policy". I want to know == who in the First Department could teach you == you who had just recently come from the Institute of International Relations; who could teil you something about foreign policy which you yourself did not understand? ((XG; B speaks in a very low, mumbling voice) ) I think I understand you correctly. There is no logic. It would be the same as if a person who had graduated the Higher Party School under the CC CPSU would come to the Second Chief Directorate and say, "I will take the short course in the history of the CPSU." It is not the history of the CPSU; this is foreign policy. The history of the CPSU is studied.... What can you learn in this group, and what can you get, just to pass the time away? Forfexample, the German question; there were several other questions. A man who was working in the American Department and was studying foreign policy would study the German question’ This was the foreign policy course; not everything was connected with the United States. The whole foreign policy of the Soviet state. DoclId:327404701 Page 59
HW 532716 DoclId:327404701 Page 61 next column, the last month in which the dues were paid is indicated -- for example, "9"....— The next column indicates the month for which the dues are to be paid, for example, in this case, it would be "10". Then you ask the Komsomol member what his basic pay is -= for example, say, "250 rubles"; you put the total of two percent.... In the Komsomol organization, two percent; in the Party, three percent. two percent.... Well, you see, at that time, it was not 250, but 2,500 or 2,000.... You receive the money, and you mark down the amount that he paid;. for example, 40 rubles, if his basic pay were 2,000... 40 rubles... so, You mark in his Komsomol card the amoung of his salary and there is a column in which you mark down the dues -- "40 rubles". And then there is a column for the signature and a stamp. But, on the list, you mark down how much money you received from him and ask the Komsomol member for his signature, and he signs it. Fur ther? That is all. You are finished with him, and he leaves. Two percent. Let us assume he receives 1,000 rubles in old currency ((Speaks with uncertainty)) 20 rubles, 20 rubles. ((In English)) Are you sure about tha t? Two percent. I am asking if you are sure of that? Twenty rubles, absolutely. You are sure?
HW 53716 Two percent. I, of course, do not want to have any arguments. The Regulations state a certain scale -=- who pays how much; how much he receives, and how much he pasy. And that scale shows that some people pay two percent, but not all of them. All of our members paid two percent. That cannot be. No one has the right to violate the Komsomol Regulations am to take more from a man than he is supposed to, There was no one who received 500 rubles, no one. That is why I asked -- if someone receives one thousand rubles, how much does he pay? Two percent -- 20 rubles. I ask again <= are you sure? Two percent. This is not true. Because the Regulations explicitly state how much a man pays according ‘to what he earns. Everyone is not covered the same way. . You understand; we had no one who received less than 1,000 rubles. This answer does not satisfy me. We are talking about the Regulations, which clearly state how much a man pays, according to how much he is paid. SECRET DoclId: 327404701 Page 62
HW 532716 All my Komsomol members paid two percent. This is not true; how much did you pay? Two percent, also, That, too, is not. true. Again, there is a big question here. You do not know the simplest thing about the Secretary of a Komsomol organization. You do not even know how much dues the Komsomol members pay. When I was a student, I paid 20 kopeks. Everyone knows that students pay 20 kopeks. Because you mention 20 kopeks, it shows that the scale indicates how much students pay and how much the others ((do)). It could not be that you yourself paid two percent; you paid something other than two percent. If you insist on telling me that you paid two percent, my only con- clusion is that you were not a Secretary of a Komsomol organization. That is the only conclusion. I do not know; as I remember.... I do not want to insist and argue further on this question, but this is a fact, clear as black on white. Right! Right! But we did not have any low-paid personnel, ((receiving)) 200 or 300 rubles. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) I know that there was not anyone receiving 500 rubles in the Second DoclId:327404701 Page 63
HW 53716 7 SECRET @ a. ©@ Chief Directorate, if you are talking about the old currency. Everyone was receiving more than 1,000. Yes, right. And no one of them was paying two percent, including you. Two percent, two percent. The Party organization -- three percent, regardless of who he was == Chief of Department, case officer —=— three percent. Again you are wrong. Also in the Party organization, not everyone pays three percent. Of course, if a Party member receives up to 100 rubles, you will pay less, but no one in the KGB receives less than 100 rubles. This is absolutely not true, and it is absolutely not right when you say that you paid two percent. It is not true, it is not true. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) Well, very well, you collected the dues, the dues. Who is entered on the list for the dues? What is that list called? I do’not remember, but all the Komsomol members were on this list. It has a name, I do not remember, I do not remember. List (vedomost') =- that is what I remember. It is ruled; you put down the surname and initials. A list for what =-— for pay? DoclId: 327404701 Page 64