Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 WW 54653 1 -2 4- - 10 Al 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DoclIda 2423498 Page 17 TOP SECRET = = i BB it that way. | 7 | | All right, we will work that out, but I would like to have a motion by the Committee authorizing us, me, to proceed in this matter. | Senator Tower. i so move.” Senator Huddleston. I second it. Chairman Church. Very well, without objection that is approved. | | Item 3 on the agenda today is a discussion of the general pattern of staff work and Committee involvement between now and the commencement of full hearings. I would like to hear from our staff but we are now at the point where the serious investigation begins. By chat imean | we are going to be taking .a lot of sworn testimony. Tle are going to begin to take an increasing number of depositions. Under the Rules of the Conmittee, when sivorn testimony is taken, depositions are taken, at least one Senator should be present to administer the ‘oath, and Im soliciting the cooperation of the Committee members so that this work can move smoothly along. In every case, let it be understood in every case, whever a request is made, any member of. the Committee can sit in on any one of these depositions, anyone that relates ~ to a sudiect of particular interest to the member. Furthesmore, it would be preferable, whenever possiile, to have a iiajority member and a Minoritv member present, if | FOR SECRET
TOP SECRET = 3. 1 that can be arranged, but we will need a lot of involvement now ¢ s . . . . = 2 || by members as we move into this serious aspect of the investi- “os . N . : § 3 | gation. é z 4 . Senator Goldwater. Could I make a request? I know it is 5 not entirely practical, but if we can have some idea of the 6 || dates that you want us it would be a great help to us. We 9 are planning on August off. I can he here whenever you need 8 .me but I would like to know far enough in advance.. 9 Senator Tower. I think we should set up a schedule and 10 “say one of us will be responsible for being here that particula ql day, anybody else can he there that wants to he. Let everybody know when his dutv day is. ri 12 _ Fy 13 Chairman Church. Yes. Or we couldpublish the schedule 8 . ~ fe) . - . = 14 and ask the staff to secure a member. F3 oo “as / Senator Goldwater. Can vou set up a schedule?— 16 Mr. Miller. Yes sir. 1? Chairman Church. Yes, for these depositions. 18 Senator Goldwater. That is all we want. We can take our 19 share. That is no problem. e 20 Chairman Church. Put it will be going evervdav. J : 21 Senator Schwediier. Where will they. be done? 5 , ; ; . : . oO 2 . ; . 5 99 Chairman Church. In different places. Some over in our 3 | | _ own staff -- go 23 5 Mr. Miller. Being an orphan Committee we may have as many ¢ 24 ; —& | . © 25 as four at the same time. gt . . TOP SICRET AW 54653 Docld:32423496 Page 13
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Streot, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 23 24 25 Docld: 324273498 Page 19 TOP SECRET~ 8 Chairman Church. I just think as a practical matter we. will probably find that we will end up oftentimes with just one] Senator present. We can't get the job done any other way. - All right. Now, what else do we have to sav on this “subject? Mr. Schwarz. Just discuss it. Chairman Church. Anything else? Mr. Smothers. No; An think that will work find for us.: I think it ought to be clear what we will try to do is fet as much information in that particular hearing. By.and large the staff will do the questioning. 7 Chairman Church. I would like to bring up this time the Washington Post article because if there are any doubts about this story I would like to clear the air right now, There was an article in the Washington Post yesterday, a good article except for one inaccuracy, a rather serious one, and I would like the advice of the Committee as to how we shouifi handle it. The part at issue reads as follows: "One Administration official said, I hope I am not being paranoid, but he said the Committee staff claimed later that the apparent selectivity was unintentional. The staffers finally left after checking Off the ones they wanted and informed later the White House as chagrined to note they had ‘asked only for reports of operations that originated in either TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET- - = 8 L the Eisenhower or Nixon Administration." 2. Us 20 oo This simply is not so and the staff has prepared a H 3 ‘memorandum which is in your folders which will show you the 5 . 4 pattern of the inquiry had paid no heed whatever to partisan- 5 ship in connection with this inquiry. And since we have tried 6 very hard to avoid this, it is a bit disturbing that that 7 issue is being raised at the White House when there is no 3 _ substance to it. 9° Mr. Miller. I can elaborate a little bit on that. I 10 |) understand that that story grew out of a Christian Science 11 Monitor breakfast at the White House, or a Roa Sperling break- | “ae || fast, which I think many Senators are familiar with. It was 7 13 ‘held at the White Mouse, and almost all of that information, e 14 as. far as we can determine, arose from that meeting. 15 But to elaborate a little bit more on this study question 16 I have gone over that list, Mr. Bader has gone over the list 19 in great detail several times in order to be sure that we were 18 not asking for anything that was not directly concerned with . 19 ' the mandate, and to he certain that the studies or reports -or : “o0 case evaluations affected all Administrations without any bias : _ It is an interesting collection, this 409 documents, and we E 20 have limited it to matters that seemed of direct concern and [ 4 93. well within the authority of our mandate, and we have given. 5 ‘o4 to the White House and to the CIA at their request the studies | ~ S 95 in order of priority in order to assist them in the process of | TOP SECRET HW 54653 Docld: 32423496 Page 20
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 - HW 54653 10 11 12 13 14° 15 “16 ‘1 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32423496 Page 21 satisfactory to us. “White House. ‘le said it wasn't true. Mr. Kirbow just this TOP SECRET ~~ 7 looking them over where appropriate. Whatever initial friction there may have been on that I think have been resolved. I think the White House is satisfied now and I know the CIA is 4 because they made those documents available on a basis that is. Senatot. Goldwater. Let me ask you, do you think that thi statement is a statement coming from the White House or is it a statement coming from George Lardner? Mr. Miller. That I can't:'he certain of. “That I can't be sure of, The only thing in looking into the story, I do knav that there was a breakfast and I.do know that those matters were discussed in detail. | Mr. Schwarz. And we do know it was made to it first abou two weeks ago and we said it wasn't true. It was made by the week said to. the White House it was not true, Senator Goldwater. The White louse made the charge? Mr. Kirhbow. — Senator, one of the counsels to the Presiden showed me a copy of an internal memo where he was trving to mai that case in the memorandum. He went over it with me and showed me paragraphs. I then, looked “at it in great detail against our. request and indicated to him at the time he could not take such a case with me and I had been very concerned about this matter at the outset of our docunent request, as the Staft Director knows, and had screened them personally TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 LO 11 13 14 WARD & PAUL 15 16 Ww, 18 19 20 Al 25 24 410 First Street, S.€., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 54653 Docla: “to be sure that we were not pointing the gun, so to speak, at him his source? 12 the White House and say you know this isn't true, why don't vot 22 250 TOP SECRET = a any given segment of our Administrations. He indicated nothin at all further as to what’ he intended to do with the memorand but it was the next dav that this came out. Senator Goldwater. Have vou talked to Lardner and asked Senator Tower. ‘He is not going to give his source,. Chairman Church. He won't give it. Senator Goldwater. If we stick by our rules we are going to be sugject to this day after day. If it is going to de a White House source, we can stop that. If it -is going to be a newspaper, I think we may be able to do something about that. Chairman Church. Let me say this about George Lardner. He has interviewed me several times and based upon the stories he has written they have always been accurate, and so I nave: no personal reasons to suspect that -- Senator. Goldwater. Do ‘vou mind if I look into this? Chairman Church. Tot at all. Senator Tower. Let ne suggest this. Let's go back to clarifv it, and then if they don't, we do. ~ Senator Schweiker. I think that is a good idea. Chairnan Church. I think it is, too. Sonator ilart of Colorado. I think that the following | statement, if they do not clarify it, a statement from the — | yap3498 Page. 22 TO Si¢ RET | | | |
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S-E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 Docld:'$2423498 Page 23 TOP S2cReT | 19 ranking Minority member would be inorder. Senator Goldwater. That is why I would like to get this thing cleared. We are going to be subjected to a lot of this. Senator Tower. I am reasorably sure a member of the: White House staff said that to Lardner. I am not positive ‘because I know the newpaper would like to promote a big fight between us and the White House. JI think we ought to get the White House. Chairman Church. We have been trving very hard not to pick a fight and we are not going to pick a fight unless we have to; but it may he that at the press conference following this meeting the question could come up. If it does come un, I will sav, and John Tower has been with me at these press a ‘conferences - -- it would be helpful if he would say we “have looked at the record of the general requests and there has hee _ no partisanship and no basis for such a charge. jut it would ; be helpful that if that subject doesn't come up if we could ga the White House to -- Senator Tower. As soon as this meeting is over I will ge on the phone. has asked me to announce in order to accommodate Senators on the Committee who need to be planning for vacation time, thet we should set aside, I suggest this to the Committee, the last Chairman Church. All right. All right, now, aed ' two weeks in August for a vacation period. TOP © CRE
"Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 54653 10 11 12 13 14 15 ‘16 17 18 19 20 eal 22. 23 25 TOP SECRET ~~ 20 Senator Tower. Good. a | | | Chairman Church. Then we can all plan on that and that would take us over the Labor Day period. All right?- 7 Is that satisfactory? | | Senator Schweiker. Let me ask one other question, lr, Chairman. Do we now envision the holding of public hearings for the first two weeks of August, because I think if we are not in-the public hearing stage we all have a little more’ flexibility in terns of things. Chairman Church. I would anticipate since we will be getting into the public hearings in not later than July that 'we probably will have some public ‘hearings in the forepart of August, and what we have tried to do here is compromise the recess issue by setting aside the last two weeks for that purpose. I would anticipate there vould be some public hear~. ings in the early part of August. | Senator Schweiker. I make this request, and I appreciate what you are trving to. do here. If we have an option as to : time, as time gets near, as to closed or open hearings, if it doesn't impede the work of the Committee we try to increase this period of closed hearings, if it doesn't impede or hart. Chairman Church. We will do the best we can with that — without making any comnitnent. Now, Senator Hart would like to raise a question concern- ing his discussion he had with the Attorney General. It would TOP SECRET Docld: 32493498 Page 24
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 | 219 20 el 22 295 24 25 DoctId: TOP SECRET a - 2k be appropriate at this time to do that, so you have the £loor. ‘senator Hart of Colorado. Well, I think at one of our recent meetings, maybe the meeting before last, I suggested tha those of you who. wished, should authorize the Chairman to reque$t of all intelligence agencies our own personal files. , It was met with méxed reaction. At the staff's suggestion oy I pursued it independently, and not independently but personally with the Asistant to the Attornev General earlier this week, an essentially he said i in my capacity as a member of the Committee I would like to see my own FBI file. | . Well,. thereupon ensued a kind of long rambling discussion about the dangers of disclosing vital information and yet the | . competing interests of a democratic society, and it was one of these philosophical things and I kept trying to get him back | to the point that all 1 wanted to do was see my file c7_on-the | theory that one of our tasks is to find out how agencies of enad sort compose files on individuals. In my case I know they nave one because I used to work for the Department of Internal Security area and had a security clearance. I suggested it. was file than to see somebody else's, quite obviously. Well the struggle was he wanted to convert this into a request, a rather routine reques under the Freedom of Informati Act, which would -have had the following consequences: a lot more appropri, te for me in this capacity to see my own | ~~ T One, it would have put me way down the list of literally OP SECRET 2493498 Page 25 .
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 54653 10 11 12 13 14 15 1? 18 19 20 al 22° 235 24 25 Docld: 32423498 Page 26 TOP SECRET ~~ hundreds if not thousands of requests under the Act. Two, he stated quite frankly, as he did in his. speech in "New York at the end of April, these requests, because they are so numerous, are now automatically exceeding the time limit und the legislation, which is the 20 days. If you are not satisfie in 20 days you have the right of appeal to the Attorney General at the courts. I said I dian't want to get into that, all I wanted to do was to see my file. He said, surely I didn't want to move myse to the top of the list because I was a member of Congress? Again TI kept reiterating that wasn't the issua at all. Essentially the way I left.it was I would send him a letter ove my signature, over the Chairman's formalizing the request in th capacity as a-member of this Committee and he wanted me to agre with him that my presence there in his office was a request under the Freedom of Information Act which would have begun to | run the time under the leqislation under the Act, and I wouldn' agree to that. | | So thqa is essentially where that is. And the only reason I bring it up is to let other Committee members know what I am doing and, two, it fits into the pattern of what we have experienced with other agencies of delay and resistance and so on. | | So that is where that thing stands, but I am going to go “ ahead and send the letter. We will send it out the first of FOP SICRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 ' HW 54653 WARD & PAUL 10 i 12 13 "14 15 16 17 19 20 el 22 23 24 25 DoclId: ‘want to qet cross-wise with my colleagues here, and if any of about it. I. don't want to provide a barrier roadblock for the 493498 Page 27 -. TOR SECRET ~ = = the first of the week. a . Senator Morgan. If you send the letter under the Freedom of Information Act, have you set a precedent for the rest of us? | 7 Senator Hart of Colorado. No, I am not going to do that. I am going to do the opposite, on the advice of counsel, if it is forthcoming. My inclination is to specifically state in it that it is not a request under the Freedom of Information Act but is a request to be considered as part of the continuing wor of this Committee, and so on and 'so forth. But again I don't you think I am doing something I shouldn't I would like to know work of the Committee. Chairman Church. Any discussion? Senator Morgan. What I would Like to see done is maybe Mr. Schwarz could go down either alone or with some Committee members as would like to go and say here we are, do you have a- file and shew it to us. The difficulty is I don't trust them. What is going to be in the file when you give them all this advanced notice? Hee Senator Hart of Colorado. Thev can delay you.: If that is your worry, they can delay you while you sit there. Senator Morgan. They can? I think somewav or other we ' have to decide who can run the show.
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 10 11 | ‘12 (13 14 “1s 16 17 ‘18 19 20 21 22 23 . 24 25 DoclId: TOP SECRET ~ ag Senator Tower. Meantime the secretary is back there pluck ing your file. Senator Huddleston. The only suggestion I have would be I don't know why Gary should be hanging out there by himself. - We should determine the proper. course and I would like to see mine, too. I would like to incorporate in a letter all of us who would like to see them and indicate to him this is part of our investigation. Senator Hart of Colorado. fT dian't want to drag others in that didn't want to be involved. Some suqqested they didn't > | want to see their files. | | One other thing I think is worth noting here. He kept referring back to the Act. under the Act I have the authority to remove any information with regard to potential criminal investigation of you and expunge information coming from | informants, to use a very serious term, whose own right of privacy would be violated bv disclosing that information to you “1 didn't know that informants had a right of privacy, but that is the Attorney General's opinion at. this point. So what he can do here, Bob, is go through. there and every time your ‘neighbors, when thev went back and did the security clearnce, said I knew him when he was. in the 7th grade and he seemed to b patriotic at that time, he can go through and cut that out to protect your neighbor's right of privacy, which means you are going to get a big piece of swiss cheese for a file -- on the TOP § CEC CRET ee a oy  -f R 42735495 Page 26
oH. Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 @ a 3 oO 10 -il 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 21 22 25 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 rts) HW 54653 pocta:4 473498 Page 29 Ol. 20. TOP SECRET 25 ground that you have to. protect the right of privacy of every informant. And, by the way, that. has been the implication, it seems to me, for all the rest of what we are doing. If that is the opinion of that agency, whether it carries over to other agencies as well, we are not going to see a thing, because all files are based pretty much on informants, I guess, unless an agent happens to observe you doing something you shouldn' te and they feel they have the right to cut all that stuff out to protect the right of privacy of informants. Senator Huddleston. That phrase might be used ina poten- | tial criminal investigation, too. | Senator Hart of Colorado. Yes sir. Chairman Church. The real issue, as I perceive it, is ' whether this Committee operating under its authority pursuant ' - ~ | | to the resolution is entitled to examine such files beginning | with files that may be kept on members of the Committee itself. outside of the purview of the Freedom of Information Act. -.Those precedures under the Act do permit certain material being -expunged and the question is whether that Act is going to control access by this Committee to such files. JI suppose without undertaking to request files on individual members who ‘do not iwsh them it would be entirely appropriate for me to. write such a letter to the Attorney General, including within it specific requests covering those members who do wish to see | : H their own file. Then we place the issue on his desk, ~ ao | ! i TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 210 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 WW 54653 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DoctId: 2423496 Page 30 TOP SECRET ~~ 26 Senator Tower. I have no objection to that. I don't care to see mine. | | Senator Goldwater. When I first came here you could go down and they would take a thumb print and within two minutes you had sour whole file in front of you. They have chaacad things. That demonstrated how good they were, That file is that thick now. Senator Huddleston. . I may not even have one. It seems to me you are right, we ought to first of all establish we have that authority and right, and in satisfying that right we make’ good by looking at our own files instead of looking at somebody else's. That seems to me to be a very simple approach. | Senator Morgan. I think you ought to make it clear, Mr. Chairman, you are not requesting under the Freedom of Information Act and warn them that no matters or records should be expunged or deleted from the record. I agree with "Dee". I think we | ought to take a look at some and it is far better we look at our own than look at some other person in the Congress. . Chairman Church. We must be careful in composing the. letter not to suggest that we are Limiting our right for access | to other files simply because we are asking for the files of members, Senator Morgan. ‘I think the Committee should be doing wha you or someone else suggested earlier, composing a list of abou to carry. down and say do you have files on these people? TOP SECRET 500 people in and out of Government that we would just like _ |
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL HW 54653 410 First Streei, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 Al 22 23 24 25 | . TOP SECRET Docld: 34423498 Page 31 e/ ea kaka E ' it might get out on the street. TOP SECRET” = ov If so, make them available. And we can't check 10,000 people, | we can't say give us a list of these people, I could sit down in a few days and come up with people that I would suspect they had files on. - Senator Goldwater. Or should have. Senator Huddleston, I think the crux of the thing is why. they have them and how they got them, | | Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Chairman, I think the real legal loggerhead that we are headed for here is this issue of: the so-called right of privacy of an informant. If he is serious about that, that has devastating consequences for the work of this Committee. Mr. Schwarz. It is the same problem as we are running into ina number of areas, and the premise in every case is the fact that the Committee gets a document means that it is going | to be on the street the next day. Now, the rules are very clear it is not going to be, and once this Administration believes | this Committee's rules, then they don't have that excuse. That is really the issue. | _ Senator Hart of Colorado, I think he is going beyond that He is saying, one, a Senator or set of Senators, even acting in this capacity, has no right to see what an informant says about them or anybody else. I think he is saying delivering it to this Committee is violating that informant's right, not chat nme a er er LE
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000. wo 10 ll 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 20 25 24 410 First Street, S-E., Washington, D.C: 20003 25 HW 54653 Doclda: 19 21 22 TOP SECRET ~~ ~———s Senator Goldwater. There are problems that have come under the new Secret Act or Public Disclosure Act IRS is runninc into. It was on my desk last night. “He is evidently. getting ready to ask for changes in legislation so IRS will have a Lite more leeway. ‘I suggest you get a copy of that letter. Each Senator got one. Chairman Church. You see, there is always a reverse twist in the best intended efforts and it may be that with the passaq of the Freedom of Information Act, we have furnished the Executive Departments with a legal basis for expunging informa- tion and withholding information they may not have had before, and thus the Freedom of Information Act becomes a shield when . it was intended to be a sieve. | Senator Hart of Colorado. In which case we may have to. amend our own authorizing resolution to point out our authority goes beyond that Act. Chairman Church. Well, let's proceed then with such a letter and wee where it leads. | ‘TI think that it might be well in this case if John Tower _ joined with me in signing the letter. . Senator Tower. r will join with you in signing it, but 7 | don't want my file, | Chairman Church, All right. And one other thing. Will you please advise all members of the Committee what we have decided to do so that every member who does want his file may TOP SECRET ee ee 24273498 Page 32:
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003. HW 54653 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24: 29 Docid: TOP SECRET) 29 have an opporutnity to be included? 7 “Mr. Schwarz. Yes sir, we will circulate the araft letter. Chairman Church. Yes, I think that might be advisable. All right, now I want to go down to Item Number 5 and then reserve Item Number 4 for the last of this meeting. Item 5 has to do with the statuse of outstanding document requests and status of procedures.. First of all, do we have any further requests to approve today for information? | Mr. Schwarz. None today. Chairman Church. What is the status of our outstanding requests? Mr. Schwarz. I think that can be very quick. The White House itself has delivered the documents we have asked for with two exceptions, but Bill and I have seen those. That doesn't mean there are no White House problems but the White House itself has delivered the documents. The CIA is doing much better but they are blacking out ‘significant portions of documents and whole areas of other documents, perhaps the most important of which relates to this assassination topic which comes. later on the agenda. The FBI is being awfully slow and we are in negotiations with them right now to try and speed that up. If we don't Succeed I think we may be coming back to the Committee next FOP SECRET | week for some kind of request for action from the Committee. | 473495 Page 33°
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 | HW 54653 1 2. || so-called monitors which you were all informed about ten days 3 || ago. The Administration initially suggested that they have the 4 “right to have a monitor present at every interview we have of 5 a current or former Administration employee. We have told them 6 that we do not agree to that, that to have a monitor present ) is inconsistent with an investigation, particularly in the area 8 of the alleged abuses, and would impede the freedom with which 9 “someone would talk, and would also have a very bad appearance. 10 It is the same kind of problem as occurred in John Dean being ll present at all of the interviews taken in the first instance 12 in the Watergate inquiry. As a matter of appearances it is bad 13 and as a matter of substance it is bad. We have been very 14 adamant on it. . I think it would be helpful to have some views from the 15 The interview procedure matter is meant to refer to the . TOP SECRET BS 30 46 Committee on that. — 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 R5 Docld: 3242734993 Chairman Church. You understand exactly what is involved here? Senator Morgan. I think it is inconceivable that we would Senator Tower. Obviously we can't do that. Chairman Church. I don't think we can either. Senator Schweiker. We would be the laughing stock of the Page 34 interview an employee or former employee with his former supervisor sitting there watching everything. . I would object. to that procedure. TOP S8CRey re a na : .
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 ll 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17, 18 19 el 23. 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 HW 54653 DoctId: 20 22. 2423498 Page 35 TOP SECRET ~= ~= © 31 Hill. | | Chairman Church. Phil Hart has indicated a similar view, though he couldn't be present this morning. I think that it might assist in further negotiation on this question if the Committee were to formally resolve -- Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, I move that we not accept the suggestion that a monitor be present with each witness. Senator Hart of Colorado. Second. Chairman Church. And we notify the agencies to this effect? | | | Senator Hart of Colorado. Strongly. Senator Goldwater. Where did this come from? ; Mr, Schwarz. From everybody. CIA put it forward first. They said they were acting for the whole community. And indeed the White House mentioned it first. Senator Schweiker. “there is a story going around the medi to the effect that there is some internal memorandum that the _ White House has saying they don't have to give any of these documents up and may well decide not to do it on the real big ones. I am wondering if that is gossip or is there any basis for that and part of this monitor position that they are taking J et I am just raising it, it is scuttle butt. JI have had mecia ask me about it, do you know anything about that, that they hav an internal document coming up that pretty well says that they . feel on their rights they are going to refuse certain key TOP S2CRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL ‘416 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 10 i “te 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23. 24 25 DoctId: TOP SECRET = 32 documents. Mr. Miller. We have not seen anything to that effect. Senator Huddleston. That is a typical tactic of the media Let me point out, as I have tried to point out a few times, thi is an approach they like to make to get some kind of informatio If you had responded that you didn't know but we will get our documents they had a story right there. Senator Tower. They have already asked us questions -- have they indicated they are going to invoke Executive Privileg on something, or when they do invoke Executive Privilege what are you going to do about that kind of thing? Senator Huddleston. A good investigative reporter will . use that kind ef tactic, frankly. | | Chairman Church. Let me say a word on that, and I have said this each time the press has raised the querstion. So far no Executive agency has refused to turn over documents that we requested. Until we have reached that point, unless we reach that point, we are not’ at issue on that question. tt is possi- ble that certain parts of certain documents that we are request ing will turn out to be very sensitive and some parts may not John, I think you might mention to the Committee what you mentioned to me today that relates to this question. I wouid like to have the Committee's approval. If the Executive, if the White House or one of these agencies feels that a part of ‘TOP SECRET be related to our inquiry. . . . | | | | ! | | \ t 493498 Page 36
TOP SECRET ST 33 1 a given document we have requested is of a highly sensitive ° ° $ $ Ua 2 nature and does not relate to our investigation, they would : 5 like to show that particular part to Senator Tower and me so g os 4 that we might determine whether or not it relates to the work 5 of this Committee, and if in our judgment it does not, we would 7 be deleted from the document that is turned over. That is B “my understanding. 9 Il. senator Tower. Yes. 10 Chairman Church. Of the question that ‘was raised. ll _ Senator Tower. Yes sir. ; 12 | Chairman Church, What that entails is that someone on thi Us 13 Committee in such a circumstance has to make a judgment, and : 14 my view is that we would make that judgment on the basis of 6 come to the Committee and say so, in which case that part | { whether or not the particular item of information relates to 15 16 the inquiry and, therefore, comes within our purview and not a | to be made available to the Committee or it does not. And If 18 we find it highly sensitive and outside the scope of our inves-| 19 . tigation, then we would tell you and you would have to accept 2 ¥ . ; ‘ 7 20 our judgment. — | ¢ 21 I don't know of any other way of handling that kind of. a . F case. = 22 oe rs 23 Senator Goldwater. I think it is very wise to do that. a 24 Chairman Church. Any discussion? ALL right with you? ° 25 Senator Huddleston. Yes. TOP SECRET HW 54653 Docld:3?423498 Page 37
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL HW 54653 ’ 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 | 10 il 12 1s 14 7 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 | 24 25 | | TOP SECRET Docld:3}473498 Page 36 e 67 ta ae le sgt 8 TOP SECRET TT 34 “Senator Schweiker. Yes. Senator Tower. This is a procedure that has been followed in other committees in regard to sensitive material. You and Stu Symington have gone and read some stufé once? Senator Goldwater. Yes; and we are reading some more. It ..is done on the Armed Services Committee quite often, where ‘they take one Republican and one Democrat and we will reach our own conclusions, and usually the conclusion that the Committee will accept. Chairman Church. I would like to proceed that weay with the understanding that without revealing the details we would explain in each case to the Committee why we concluded that it was not within the scope of the investigation so that the Committee would be satisfied. © Senator Schweiker... Do I further understand, I think I do, that if the two of you would not be able to agree, that would not apply. If one of you dissented, if one read it one way and another another way? | Chairman Church. We would bring it back. Senator Tower. Bring it back to the Committee and let the Committee decide. Senator Hart of Colorado. What would be your collective inclination on matter in a gray area? Which way would you both ‘tend to resolve it, or am I getting too hair splitting? : Chairman Church. I think that is very hypothetical. TI
toe SECRET = 3 g 1 think until we see what it is we are in no position to make the 3 ~ 3 2 "judgment. oo , 9 é 3 Senator Tower. My only personal inclination would be if w ° 3 4 were in a gray area and weren't sure, we would go ahead and |. 5. bring it to the Committee. We would not agree to expunge it. 6. ‘Chairman Church. That would be my disposition, too. 7 Senator Tower. It would have to be beyond really a - 8 reasonable doubt. Again I can't go any further than Frank. 9 Senator Hart of Colorado. I understand. - 10 Senator Schweiker. Under that procedure you would see it 11 all yourself, it wouldn't be somebody sanitizing something , 12 (that you look at? | - e 13 Chairman Church. No; we would see it. a Senator Tower. See it unsanitized. 15 Chairman Church. We can't make a judgment on any other ' 16 basis. 7 ” All right, we have not formall acted on Senator Tower's 18 suggestion with respect to a rejection on the part cf the 19 Committee to the monitoring that they have asked for, and so | : 20 without objection, the Committee agrees that that proposition ; F 21 is rejected. We will so inform the agencies. And Senator | F | 20 Mondale gave me a proxy, so I would take it to he the unanimous : 7 33 view of the Committee. | 5 | Senator Hart of Colorado. Mathias? S 25 Chairman Church. Senator Mathias I am sure would concur. €? a F HW 54653 DoclId:30423498 Page 39 _ TOP SECRET
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 416 Fist Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _DoclId: TOP SECRET = = Senator Tower, I will exdrcjse a proxy. Chairman Church. And I intend to inform the press of that action. Now, I would like to ask al the members of the staff if they would please excuse themselves. Senator Tower. Do you want to take the nominations? © Senator Goldwater. I move they be accepted en bloc. Chairman Church. All those in favor of the motion say aye (Chorus of ayes) Those opposed? (No response) ~Chairman Church. very well. I will ask members of the staff please to leave except our Counsel and Staff Director. First of all, let me say how much I appreciate the reputation that this Committee is getting for conducting ay responsible and secure investigation. We have tried every way so far and the cooperation of the Committee has been just superlative. | | | The issue of assassination is with us and I think the time! First, let me say that indications are that the Rockefeller Commission has looked into this very seriously. Also I assume, though I have not-been told, -the Vice has come for us to discuss how we will proceed with it. _| President cane very close to telling us, I think at our ‘| TOP SECRET 423493 Page 40 .
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 ll 12. WARD & PAUL _ Cn 14 15 . 16 19 18 19 20 21 (22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 HW 54653 DBocld:324273493 Page 41 Colby was at the breakfast meeting preceeding our meeting with conference with him -- I assume that the report of the Rockefeller Commission will deal with this assassination question, and it is important that we know all that we can know beginning with the investigation that. I will propose. First, so that we can be adequately informed and in a timely way. Second, so that we can then decide how this Committee proposes to deal with the question and what public disclosures we may feel to be necessary. The first time I raised the question directly with Mr.: | the CIA out at their leadquarters in Langley. Senator Tower was there and I ‘raised the question prior to his: coming, to his arrival at the breakfast. I then asked Mr. Colby to repeat] to Senator Tower what he had told me, and this is what he said to us. He said that there had been CIA involvement in several attempts against. the life of Castro, that these attempts took . place between 1960 and 1965, that obviously the attempts had failed, that Castro was aware of the attempts because at least in one case an agent of the CIA was captured, interrogate} and Colby had no reason to believe that Castro was not fully informed by now. Senator Morgan, He said so on the Today Show. Chairman Church. He said so on the Today Show. The matter has surfaced in the press. As you know, there - TOP SICRET
“TOP SECRET” = sts 3 1 . ramifications. that I can see at the moment. oe 2 There is a growing and perhaps ill founded suspicion, but e 3 nevertheless it is a persuasive one on the campuses, that the 3 ‘4 || CTA has not come clean or CIA might have in some way been 5 involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. I find 6 ‘that utterly unvelievable but, nevertheless, you know that the 9. suspicion is widespread. And I find it unbelievable and becaus¢ a oI can't comprehend CIA would bé involved in such a thing. 5 However, there are some unanswered questions concerning whether 10 the CIA made a clean breast of everything it disclosed to the 1 Warren Commission and whether the Warren Commission pursued the ; 12 matter sufficiently. | SS 7 13. One of these questions relates to the fact that Oswald f ta. did. visit the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City prior to the | “45 assassination, and there is some confusion as to how fully this| 46 was disclosed to the Warren Commission. i Senator Tower. The other side of this coin that there is 18 suggestion the CIA was involved in the assassination and there 7 19 is right wing suspicion, it was a Communist conspiracy. S 920 Chairman church. Yes sir, both suspicions. ; “91 I assume agin from the apprearances and from all other : - reports that I have read in the papers concerning the investi- 3 . . ud os gation of the Rockefeller Commission that they are looking into_ z , this alleaes connection with reference to the Kenndy assassina- 2. 95 tion. they have even gone so far as to interrogate the doctors | 423498 Page 43 | To [> SECRET HW 54653. DoclId:
NX Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 14 R4 | . HW 54653 DoclId:324273498 Page 44 _grow. We were beginning to build a respectable intelliger a TOP SECRET ~~ io who were present and who did the medical examination of the _ President's skull and made reports that the Warren Commission considered, So we have it on. our hands. Senator Goldwater. Can I give you my views on this? I think we are getting into the field of danger I felt we would get into. | I know there is pressure to reopen the Kenndy thing. I can't believe that the Warren Commission didn't make an honest report, but that is not what bothers me so much. If we get into the assassination field we are looking at attempts on Castro's life or others. I think this is a field of activity that we should stay out of as far as the CIA is concerned or ° any other body. It is a part of intelligence that we just have to learn to. live with and don't like. I could tell you, I can't divulge names, the chances are we nver would have lost Purtugal had this big blow-up of the intelligence community in our. country not bubbled up in the press media. Whether this involved assassination I don't know but I have real reason to believe Portugal would still be with us had we not literally destroyed our ability to operate in these foreign countries. I can gell you that it is. virtually. impossible now for the CIA or DIA or any agency to get eyeball contacts in any foreign countries. We were never too good at it. We were beginning to TOP Cram ry a eo Nas Le | |
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 | AW 54653 Lo il 12 13 14 15 16 i? 18 19 20 el 22 23 24 25 TOP SECRET ~~ sit . community, but what has taken place so far has destroyed that, and I would be very strongly opposed to our getting into any of those type of operations, even including the Kennedy. I think it is better those. things remain closed. It is better, too, that we not destroy a weapon, whether we like it or not. It is used against us and will be used against us. It has been used throughout history, not necessary assassinations, but destruction of character, destruct-on of property. I don't want to see us become the only country in the world that is devoid of any ability to operate. I would steer clear of that kind of clandestine type operation. I really mean that. If you want to get into the Kennedy thing that is another thing. I personally would oppose that because I think this is . I a closed book and should stay that way. Chairman Church. I understand your feelings and I don" t relish the inquiry into this field. but I believe that. it is _ unavoidable. First of all, I will be very much surprised if the Rockefeller Commission n does not say in its report that these assassination. attempts have ‘been made. It will strongly condemt them because certainly we can not License murder in time of peace and will quite likely propose some changes in the law to all of ‘that is at least probable and we then are ina position where if we do not turn.our attention to this ques tion and reac ‘TOP sEch 227 | | make it a punishable offense. I just surmise that. But I : Docld: 324273498 Page 45
g 8 1 $ ws 2 g 3 z 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 , 12 2 < 7 ws 15 « 3 14 15. 16 17 18 - 19 G 20 Qo 8 21 3 22 < 23 oa 24 SY” g + 25 HW 54653 Docld: 324273498 Page 46 - applies to America is another horse. You can make these things they ~ are going to go on. ‘amon that watchdog committee and frankly, we don't want to kno TOP SECRET ~ ae our own conclusion respecting it, this investigation will look silly to the public. | When I say that I understand all of the reasons that lie behind your misgivings.” Senator Goldwater. I am'trying to get this within tne tenet of the resolution and I think we are safe when we say we are not going to get into the external things. Internal that illegal but in the interest of our country I can assure you We have ‘this problem on the Armed Services Committee and I ee A rs + gome of the things that go on. That is what I am afraid of that we are doing. Once we get outside of the basic charge of | this Committee, which is to look into the espionage and other . - practices performed on our own citizens, then I think we can well destroy what little we have left in the field of intelli- génce and at the same time our enemies are ‘stronger ‘and stronge in the field. that is my personal feeling. | I would make one suggestion that we not decide this day, that we wait and see what the Rockefeller Commission does come — up with. If they come up with it I think we are stuck. Chairman Church. My proposal is this: There is every indication that the Rockfeller Commission has gone into this © | - question and they are going to say something about it. TOP SECRET