HW 53716 B. SECR @ = 66 - ® Inasmuch you could not explain how you got on the rolls of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD when you began working, where were you on the Komsomol rolls before entering on duty in the MVD? In a military unit, in Sovetsk. In which military unit? The Navy Intelligence Point -=- Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet. In the city of Sovetsky Sovetsk of Primorskiy Kray. And why do you say Primorskiy Kray? It is called Primorskiy Kray, formerly Konigsberg, Kaliningrad, Baltiysk -=- this is all Primorskiy Kray. Since when did they start calling it Primorskiy Kray? I do not know since when; but they called it that, when I was there for a few months in 1952 -— Primorskiy Kray. There is an official name for the region. Primorskiy Kray; city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. What are the big towns in Primorskiy Kray. _Baltiysk, the former Pillau. Baltiysk, what else? Is that the only big city? I do not know any more there. DoclId: 327404701 Page 69 SEGRET
HW 53716 Well, when first was there a Primorskiy Kray? After the war, of course, because this was a German zone; this was German territory. Since when did they start calling it Primorskiy Kray? I do not know; I do not know anything more. Is there no other name for this region? a) City of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. That is how the letters were addressed. What is the capital of this Pr imorskiy Kray? Kaliningrad; Konigsberg, the former Konigsberg, Kaliningrad. . Since when did they start calling it Primorskiy Kray? I do not know since when. Well, I think you should know, if you were there. I do not know. It is difficult for me to believe a man who was there would tot know what this place was called. I told you -- city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. There is no Primorskiy Kray there and was none. I even received letters addressed to Primorskiy Kray . Perhaps, in the Far East. DoclId: 327404701 Page TO .
HW 53716 B. DoclId: 327404701 Page T1 @ ~ 68 - ®@ I know that, I know, I know. I know the Primorskiy Kray itself... Vladivostok. Well, since when was it called.... Well, since when, since when? This territory was incorporated into the Soviet Union when it was captured from Germany. This territory is close to Lithuania, Kaliningrad, Baltiysk, Sovetsk, but since when it has been called Primorskiy Kray, I do not know. I was there for several months in 1952. In Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. What was the capital of Primorskiy Kray. Kaliningrad, the former Konigsberg. Why was it called Kaliningrad? They simply renamed the city. Konigsberg was the German name; then it was called Kaliningrad. They simply renamed the city. Konigsberg was the German name; then it was called Kaliningrad. Just between us, did you really serve there? ((In a low voice)) Yes. Well, I do not insist, and I do not want to repeat it a hundred times -- tell me frankly if you served there or not. Of course! What should I say? Well, if you served there, then why say such a thing’
HW 53716 What thing? 3 In 1952 and even earlier -= but I do not want to say from when -- it never was called Primorskiy Kray. The city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. What do you mean? I was there; I know. I want to say that you perhaps are still confusing this with something else. I am not confusing this with anything. There is no Primorskiy Kray. I know that Primorskiy Kray is in the Far East; I know that. There never was any here. It is quite sad that a man who has completed the Institute of Inter- national Relations does not know the simplest things about Soviet geography. ((Long Pause)) Well, you worked for a long time in the Second Chief Directorate; did you ever send an operational letter to this Primorskiy Kray? No, no; not once. Of course not; there never was such a place. © ((Pause)) What is keeping from telling that you never were there? I say that I was there. How can I say that I was not? How can it be that a man who was there and worked there says that this is Primorskiy Kray, even though there never.... DoclId: 327404701 Page Tf?
HW 53716 @ _»~. ® The city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray, precisely; precisly, precisely. I ask again -= perhaps you are confusing it with something. I am not confusing it with anything. I would like to help you because there never was any Primorskiy Kray there. Primorskiy Kray; city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. Yesterday, I thought well, perhaps the man just made a slip. No, no, no. I remember, even in letters -- Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray, military unit such and such. What military unit was it? Do you remember? I do not remember. While there, in which Komsomol organization were you on the rolls? The only one that we had «= in the MRP. The Navy Intelligence Point? Yes. Approximately how many Komsomol members were there? I am afraid to say == not less than 30. We had many enlisted men; the officer component was not large. There were many enlisted men and petty officers. Docld:32404701 Page T3
HW 53716 B. SECR e “nr. © What =j- were the enlisted men not Komsomol members? Well? Well, I say... that is why I say that there were about 30 members. We had about 15 officers in all. All of the officers were members of the Party organization. I think it would be logical to say that in such a responsible place as the Navy Intelligence Point, most of the enlisted mencand petty officers would be Komsomol members, there they would have been selected and checked. Therefore, surely there must have been more than 30 men. Well, understand -~- there were the members of the Party organization. That is quite understandable... and there were non-Party members. There were those who were not Party members Well, what was that Komsomol organization called? The Komsomol organization of such and such a military unit. What military unit? I do not remember the number of the military unit. Well, what was it «= Komsomol organization of the military unit? What kind of a Komsomol organization? A primary Komsomol organization; primary Komsomol organization of military unit such and such. Who was the Secretary? I do not remember. DoclId: 327404701 Page 74
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404701 Page 75 SECRET ad -~ 72 - ® Was he an officer, an enlisted man, a petty officer (serzhant) ((Speaks with uncertainty)) No... he was... a warrant officer... a chief petty officer. To whom was this organization subordinate? To the Deputy Chief of Intelligence for Political affairs. To the Deputy Chief.... Deputy Chief of the Fourth Navy Fleet. Who was he? I also do not remember. Well, to whom was the Deputy Chief of Intelligence subor dinate? . To the Political Department, the Political Directorate of the Fleet. Political Directorate of the Fourth Navy Fleet. Yes. Well, anyway, you can be more precise -—=- what was the Komsomol organization called, and to whom it was subordinate? Because what you said is not entirely accurate; that is not the way it is I am taking the last point. The Secretary of the Komsomol organization is subordinate to whom? To the Deputy... to the deputy commander of the military unit for political work. Let us express this more precisely. If one is an officer in the Navy -- whether in Intelligence or not --+
HW 53716 . -. e - 73 - in the Army, there is a definite Komsomol and Party organization structure. Right, right. And they have their own titles and names. You see, when you say that.... The primary Party organization of military units.... ...For political or political affairs, etc., there is a difference, but this.... I have in mind "for political affairs", "for political affairs" -- deputy commander for political affairs; but this is not political work! Why bother with such hair-splitting? This is not hair splitting. An officer who was there would never say "for political work", because it will be thought of as low-level. For political affairs. Let us call things by their own names. What kind of Komsomol workcdid you do there? What were your responsibilities as a Komsomol member when you were at the MRP? I was a rank and file Komsdmol member. I could have carried out some separate tasks for the Secretary of the Komsomol organization. For example? I do not remember. Perhaps I gave a speech or two; that is all. DoclId: 327404701 Page 76
~ 74 — I was there for a short time only. A. Well, what kind of speech, for example? B. I do not remember; well, I do not remember. A. Well, again, I am inclined to help you. A man with a higher education, a language, etc., could do many things there. B. I could not do many things, because I was there for a short time, A. How long were you there? B. Four months, four and a half months. A. Let us go back now to the old question -j- although you are not giving me the name of the Komsomol organization to which it was subordinate, how finally did you get on the rolls of the Komsomol Committee of the MVD? B. I told you how. A. But saying that tells me nothing; what you said about speaking with someone there, but what should go before and after that? B. Well, I went to the registration group of the Komsomol Committee and said that I had come to be put on the rolls -- "I am a new employee of the Second Chief Directorate"; they asked for my Komsomol card -~ "Here is my Komsomol card"; then they asked me where I had been == I told them I had been there and there; well, they opened a personnel card (litsevaya uchetnaya kartochka) on me and put me on the rolis. A. What else?. B,. Nothing else. HW 53216 Docld:32404701 Page 77