trying to figure the number of teams that I thought would bey necessary. The investigative talent, the lawyer talent that’. oy am talking about here, is not just begat rhey are to. * take part in the investigaton as well, and from previous “a ||) working with lawyer- investigator teams, I have tried to use. _seproxinatly one lawyer with two to three investigators. | De. Anderson. Very briefly, you have already. had da » goutoauy + with we atokes’ on the question of the efforts which: yo have made with respect to minority niving.” ‘hore’ | "generally I am wondering, and not ina great deal. of detail, “that wouldn't. be necessary, how do you go about t recruiting ‘personnel for an assignment of this kind? ‘Do ‘they, largely - come to you, or do you go to then, and if so, to whom do “you go? Do you have recourse to certain professional || orgenscations that put you in touch with people? | a would just be interested in a very broad, general "description of the process. | - Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, we have had a hundreds’ of applications sent in to, which we are in the process Soe "reviewing. What I wanted to do and have done, o ee extent, is the people that I thought would be. in. ‘the ‘senior.’ “Wh positions, I wanted those to be people that I have. gone ae out and recruited, who were not just people who naa 3 submitted | - applications. What I did do here, I have contacted lawyers, 7s have contacted judges, I have. contacted prosecutors around, "|
ae aa . the country, and asked them, and I put to them, ‘that we are “trying to get a totally dedicatea professional staff. 3]. would they think about it and submit names to me of people. Toga the upper echelon. What I wanted to do, when. r got the “people in the upper echelons, I wanted them to go ‘through | - these applications that we now have, and cull from them and “set up interviews then of those people, but in the upper an 3 echelons it was my initiation of inquiries. ‘When I. was. || given names, I then made other inquiries of people that. s |} baa had contact, worked with them, and as a ‘result of eat then arranged interviews, and from those interviews that or did personally, I culled out those in the upper echelons. ob G Now of those people, I have turned over to. then at ante - a |}. point the applications that have come in, “and 3 have’ asked. them. to go over these applications with me,. after ‘they | ‘| nave weeded out those that they think ought to be. weeded out, and our thought is to then arrange for interviews with a - those people. -. Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. - Chairman Downing. (Mrs. Burke? Mrs. Burke. ‘Thank |you. I also certainly want to commend you, Mr. Sprague, on © your statement to this committee. One question | has been _ bothering me. You indicated that one of the reasons we, chad to have independent investigators was because those graaiedonatl
agencies that we would draw investigators from would possibly be a source of a great deal of the investigation _ and review. | Ff vo you see any problem very specifically _ in’ the he FBI “conducting the investigation of the staff, if those ‘state "members may ultimately. have to review the FBI? “The Set: that bothers me is the possibility that sonething night be in. the profile of a potential staff member: that. would not & be disclosed, but could be disclosed at some, future ee |p etme: if it became necessary to discredit this’ comistes. Mr. ‘Sprague. To answer your question, yes, that is an. fe area of concern to me. I have I guess two thoughts. in ‘response. One is that whether the FBI or any other agency fag: asked to do a backgrgnd check, in fact they can do. it. ||. whether w we ask for our purposes or not, and if, in fact hoy Pe do it, and obtain any information. that they subsequently | want to use for whatever Purposes to discredit, ‘they are a _ free to do it. There is going to be nothing secret “about | - who is employed on this staff, and there is full reign ‘for- "anybody to check their background, so that ‘the problem Po "anyone releasing information, that is going to be pwnetner | owe utilize them to do a background for us or not. : ‘Second by, I have considered whether we ousnt ee ask K the | | Defense intelligence Agency to do a background. check in n Liew fof. the’ “PBI, but I neatly thought that there is no reason to
avoid it. The background check is not for the purpose of that agency then determining for us whether we will accept or reject that employee. It is information. TI am all for “letting the FBI get all of the information that ‘they: can, “turning it over to us, for us to have it for evaluating Ps , || whether we want that person, not asking then to do it. ae | doesn't achieve anything because they can do anything. why. “not avail ourselves of that. It doesn’ t bother me. rao! “not s See that that is going to interfere in the least, ana . © background check. that they are not going to turn over, ana to use it at some time, if that was to be, that can ers “done anyway in any event,.so it seems to me that’ if that: , vis: the reason for avoiding having the FBI do a background “check, it really doesn't hold water, oF Ds guess I also have this feeling in my mind with” > regard to it, and the reason that I do not ‘say tet. another” agency do it. I said earlier the goal is to do a ‘thovougn a definitive job. I do not want to be in- a position, and I. of attack can subsequent ly occur. I don' t even. nant to waste. the time of this committee or the staft with a public: debate how come this committee. and its staff dia not Sie “kes personnel to be subject to an FBI check. It. cia waste of e energy to. get into, “and with a. _ broad Body | of the Public ” your concept that maybe they have developed something in ae | suggest the committee ought not to want to ) be, that an avenue ‘| -
ar. it doesn't mean that much but they are going to think that . that is of some significance. Why avoid it? 1f see no. "reason to do that, and so my feeling is yes, let's have that check, Dyes. Burke. That answers my question. a ‘suppose one of the reasons some of us were very. concerned about particular members of the staff is the possibility | of its. | being \ used ina political context, and I personally am | very concerned that we do have staff people who have been. checked, and who will not leak a lot Wl press or to agencies, . As I see it, our credibility is going to depena upon es ~ the level of the staff, and also the security of. the staff. Sy Mr. Sprague. I couldn't agree with you. more, and. this gets, into the area of staffing. — You know people ask how” “a0 you make judgments? Well, it is difficult, and I £ assure we this: committee that I feel very deeply the burden: that is - - ton my shoulders in terms of not letting you down, ‘not Letting: a || reat the public down. _ | | | .  f do feel it. I feel this obligation to do: a + thorough se injob; a and that ‘includes a staff that isn't going. to let any of wi us: down, and it is looking into their background. “It 3 is evaluating them, sizing them up. a I hope I end up being right in that task. Mrs. Burke. Just one further question.» of things to a |
. you, are. going to have in tackling, these two > assassinations i]t that all of us on this committee serve on at ieast: one or Gf Is it still our posture that all staff people “that are hired will be on a temporary basis, or are we now saying” that all staff people from this point forward are 2 permanent - people? : Dnata Bowning - There has been no Aecision, but ro : ON jase assumed that they would be permanent, unless they didn' t peeve es be qualified or for some reason had to: be. alentened.” “Mrs. Burke. I see. , | hank you very much. Chairman Downing. Mr. Dodd? ss Mr. Dodd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sprague, I also join my colleagues in Sere Site for your statement this morning, for your outlining, of ~ how you envision the role of this committee and the problems. : inves tigations OF) tie, I have a couple of questions” that have been raised at least in part, but. ry wasn eal ‘satisfied with the response. .One was raised by Mr. McKinney regarding our individual | of the Howseg . staff people that we have as gembers, — I am sure “you: are. aware af two other committees in addition to our obligations. in’ . “our district and so forth. Aside from the financial "problens, what will be the relationship as you see (it between 7 - our individual staff people and the committee staff?
- obligations we will want that staff person to be in contact with the committee, to determine exactly what is going on, | what is coming in and so forth as a conduit. G ¥ Y Mr. | Sprague. Fine. I would be happy for any. individual “that any “member of this committee designated, instead of |]. aeating directly with us, if you want someone else in- touch | yi wien x us to be the intermediary, fine, as long ; as “te tis. aioe | that you have designated. That is no problem sen = (Chairman Downing. Let me intercede a mimate. i think” “you have got a good point, but it ought to be. Limited to, one’ : 1 |] person, He ought to be known to the committee, : Mr. Dodd. You are anticipating my next question, Mr. _ Chairman, »° Chairman Downing. Go ahead. Mr. Doda. _ You then run into the yocentat protien “that, Mrs. Burke has raised, and that is of: course by | oe aebignating someone on our own staff you have’ a me "additional people who may not have had checks done ‘on ate mea You increase or open up the possibility, of ‘leaks, cm and I a wonder fm what you are thinking, about. in- terms: of that relationship, more than just what: ‘the’ daily “Mr. Sprague. I guess my response to that | would be. hat the information that we would be conveying to the Antermediary would be information that in ny opinion, af
os 91 ‘that person had not been himselt cleared, it was proper to! let's” Say clear and something of a more sensitive nature . occurred, I would want to take it up directly with. members. of the committee, unless you arranged that that “intermediary: cons himself cleared. | Dw would have to be an area of a certain balancing’ = oe mat it is we are talking about. | a - | Ghairman Downing. The gentleman: of any menber of the ey committee for that matter could Gesignate ; a name “how or. "whenever he can, and we could have that man or. iz woitak élearea Mr. Memanney« Mr. Chairman, could I ena - My whole reason for questioning was that Ir am \ being _ perfectly selfish. I see one Staff member on my state |] spenaing all his time with ne, staying on top of thigg am woe _ ee frankly representing Pairfiela county, congaetiast, Wee ks answer I can rt over 700 letters a week with the state. that It have now. I guess it is being selfish with, Soney Ef e in I don" t know whether Chris was aiming,that direction. 1 | don't’ know if we should designate one person. pea ! | Furthermore, Se bare | the ‘whole bi lta bintenbombemhoneSit I don't: know. how I. am. fs going to take one person out epee nein | . : _ Mr. Dodd. If the gentleman will yield back I wasn! Me ae "talking about the fingncial problem. We are talking oe “Potentially of 170 staff people to this committee, We: ada 4 in effect 12 more staff | People in terms of Ehe request of:
ee the House Administration Committee. We then. are. going to. jeopardize the effectiveness of the committee staff -— — from a financial standpoint. I understood that» as being | one of your real concerns. You may. want (to "respond to that. | . | Pye. Spraque. Could T Say this, because there may be “some area of confusion here with regard to. what. detail ae you want to have information. Let me give as’ an example here, i if I may use the Yablonski murders, at. one- e point “in that investigation, for example, I had people in > Kentucky | *, “interviewing coal miners for a certain purpose. well, Pesce “dia not need to know the specific questions: asked of ech coal miner and the specific responses. The summary that rr |] needed to know, just to let me know, are they Proceeding a “this thing, are they asking the questions about certain eee | funding, and what is developing took cfye minutes of ny “time to learn things of that nature. | a a “Now if this committee wants to know every. little point, “then ye you are going to be having your ‘time and your oe “ interneaiary’ s time just taken up on detail that 1 think fa going to be a waste of your time. - . Mr. Dodd. So I don't (drag this out any longer, ‘I night ask..Mr. Sprague - 7 some | Ehought ae to ae s suggestion that, al re |
this all the way through? What velationsnip/fod\wouldg/ vant to have with him through our off ice -auadenmmmtcacsi I think Vetere -it would be helpful to us to have some clear idea, because. 4 ||. tnis is something we. are all. going to ‘do. I guarantee we are all going to have a> staff person assigned to this. or would like to know how we ‘deal: with that, SO that “welaontt “infringe upon your efforts or or the committee's efforts, and |] at the same time we will be kept fully abreast of what is) “going on. 7 Yrs. sorague. Fine. I shall do 0, though again et | * ie repeat that hopefully this is going to be a team effort, and I know for my part the importance of the task. 7 cs really. |] a0 intend to see that each member here is kept advised | and _Matters are discussed with ‘them, and frankly to the extent’ | "that it can be done without going through intermediaries, - . aed prefer to try to do it. Mr. McKinney. If I could interrupt without killing. “this whole subject, I would agree with you. UD: ‘would want “to be at every meeting, but the mere fact of the matter is” 2 ae & an” that ‘ousene trying to be ranking member of the District x of Columbia Committee. I just picked up the. Washington 1 Post. ||. today and saw that one of my agencies is in ‘terrible | trouble. All hell is going to break loose. ‘We need something "really, if you understand the way we lives ati, is tough» “to understand because’ I still Gon! i it after & ee
94 “years Seonoone who sits next! ‘to us who says " Hey, boss, _ remember," becasue we are going to be a team, and we are. mo going to put our final stamp on your ‘decision, and 7 know | - what we are going to do. We are going to run to greet ‘the " nnerican Legion, the veterans of Foreign “wars, from committee. || meeting to committee meeting, we are going to go to ‘your, ae , brief ings and we need one guy like Hank: “TE. you ‘are going ce “to let 1 me forget one thing on this committee, we are dead, “we need you." ag ) rere cement ; 2 Dt think this is what we need, not ‘sopiee LRASSso SO ‘much’ one Someone _ as ,to remind us that we are not meeting with the American. oe “Legion and the Boy Scouts. We are talking about. the. assassination of Martin Luther King. We want. someone who. |) xeeps track of it. It is a stupid way to live” but, ‘that is- ae ‘aover _ the way it is. We ga to many areas. ghairman Downing. Counsel will take this under consi- ..deration. Mr. Sprague. One last thought on that if r may. When’ ” you say attending. these meetings, I really think: our, r obligation “is to keep you advised without even meetings. 1 think we. _ “have an obligation to keep you advised on an independent. ||) pasis. We have to make it our business to got to your ~ |p wits o the formality of a meeting. That to me is. part of “our function here.
95. Mr. Chairman, if I may indulge, Mr. Sprague y O- -ene other small question and then I will stop. TI think it ees “is important. It has to do with the media and the press. mae) a 4 or might point out that in the last week or so I called | Mx Sprague prior toa radio interview, to talk with him: about what I should be talking about and what T. shouldn' t “be t talking about. I got a letter today from someone. “else, Jo wnat has some hidden information allegedly, and I am cure. “all of us are going to be inundated with this: kind. of “ening, “and t would like to see some of either unwritten ‘pale, | = gentleman’ s agreement or something, wherein © those of ge 2 | on the committee don't want to unwittingly be the. cause: of ae “in an effort to in any way sabotage the committee! s “work, Gey at we may be the source of information that shouldn't = be made public. — -{ think you understand what I am talking about. t,t am a all the members do on the committee, ‘and I wonder if f "you might be a little more clear as to how we should handle, oe “that. What should be done, so that we don't. sabotage this. “effort? | | Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, responding to the. > question, || ae is really repeating what I said before, that I would ope : va feet it would be agreed that it is only tne fnaizman 2 and the press. aide to whom, inquiries from the press| should. c - this team effort suffering-as a result of a media play, ‘not an cote,
Was. proceeding, but I think there is a need to let’ the. who would speak on behalf of the committee and the staff, J OF of course anyone that the fhairman would designate to —_ any speech. | | as the investigation proceeds, even with the inguiries < the press out there when we recessed for lunch, | 5 - || cearay would like to see as a policy that there wei any. - aiscussion even by the ghairman or anyone with regard co “what the evidence is as we are proceeding. I think that: - that is just the wrong thing to do. _ The scope of what I think is desirable at the a scien 2 “which ‘I would hope that the ghairman would perhaps, concur: in, I think there is a matter of public education involved | “right now, having nothing to do. with where the + avestiastion ||. public know, if my figure of 170 is a figure Accepted we |) this: committee, as to that kind of educational process to ||. the public, so they understand that. that is ‘really not ae “big figure. | ce Now that has nothing to do with what we are going to “Look into, for example, on the questions asked, “are wee "going to examine this alleged report by J. Bagar Hoover, and “follow through on whether it went to the Warren commission, “what the CIA allegedly did. | | oy I do not think there should be any responses. of, that X ! - nature. That is what we are investigating.
| J vow nopetulty from time to time when things are. “ getermined on some definitve basis, then the comittees “the gnairman, might decide to have a public hearing, and” - present some testimony, but beyond doing it in that. “manned, "and beyond just an educational process for the e pustic as to what the financial needs are and the size of the": staff, or think it detracts from the dignity of this investigation — to be saying "No, we do not know of the FBI memo" "or "We * gre“ going to go into this or that CIA file." I ‘think ‘those, io “things ought not to be. “wr. Dodd. I thank you, Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to ask that oe - second question. Chairman Downing. You are welcome. Mr. Ford? “Mr. Ford. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. - 1 have two questions of Mr. Sprague. ‘one as Mr. Dodd mentioned earlier, I would like to know “de it is possible since we are talking about approximately | 170 staff people, each member of this committee, is it~ | * Sogeibie that one member of the staff could be assigned to “each member of the committee? : 7 Mr. Sprague. In my opinion that is impossible really, one reason being I am not misstating it wien-1 say thath “my 170 figure is a bare bone figure. Even to come down” —
“98-109 “ grom that 170 by 12, is putting it in a most difficult “situation, but, secondsy, in terms of the staff, ehis ie a staff that is doing an investigative job for your for the public. I can't run an investigation where 12 people vee that “staff are just sitting in on every meeting that ‘we ‘are y “having, determining, when I get a report from soniebody t today, © that something is occurring in Dallas, and I want to, sit with my top people to review that and find out what is to be done. Ought I to be calling 12 aides of 12 congressmen to sit in, before I then review that and decide what to” 3 do, and then when I get that underway, I am 1 getting ; a. " keport over on the King matter? Do I do that? It is ‘an. oe unworkable thing to do it that way. Boy TD amat is workable, and I repeat again, is the e obligation _ on me to keep this entire /dofimittee advised as to what: is. : “going on. I repeat what I said earlier. Try it ewan | Tf it doesn't work, fine. Then we will do it some other ways One other question. ae I missed the discussion, but how will you divide the stafé with ‘regards to the King-Kennedy matter, or will you | divide the staff at all? Mr. Sprague. There is an organizational, chart in “the? “pack ‘of that book that I have there, and in brief. it is’ 15 attorffys and 25 investigators on each. roca
De Ford. I see the chart on the back now. a Chairman Downing. That was gone into this morning, Mr. Ford. But if you have any specific questions, feel free to go ahead. ee wes Mr. Ford, I yield back the balance of my time. | Chairman Downing. Thank you very much, Mes Sprague. os 7. “You have been very patient and I think you | have explained | in a . depth your feelings about how this investigation should be ae “conducted. ae . Now Mr. Sprague is asking, and I think. he is entitled to, “whether we accept his concept of how the committee should be 7 staffed, and I would entertain a motion now from. someone , || accepting the concept or discussion or whatever: you want. 2 Mr. Gonzalez. Mr. Chairman, I would Like to ‘move: that the | “comittee, in affirming its earlier approbation of Me. “Sprague “as ‘the general counsel and chief of staff, further | that. *asttrmacion by accepting his organizational chart and” "presentation as to the staff organizational matters | in accord- ance with his recommendations. Chairman Downing. Thank you. “Do I hear: a second? - Second? Mr. McKinney. Second. - Chairman Downing. All those in favor? Sg <> Ym Burke. Mr. Chairman, I “would ju t ‘Like. to ask one: eo
“question. “How does this organization anticipate we. would > proceed? Ff would we be holding hearvings in the subcommittees and, ‘this information brought before individual subcommittees, and: “then, at the end, the full committee would meet, Or: “could we a ; have’ a bit of clarification? oa ‘think the organization seems excellent except I am not». ure I understand how we plan to proceed. . | Chaixman Down Downing. All right. é = ee = Me. Sprague, I turn that one over to you. ~T have an | "answer, but I think he can tell you more succinctly. a on Mr, Sprague. Mr. Chairman, as I see it, “with, each of, the» two subcommittees, the investigation which is under way , | continues in greater measure. Of course, I must say, ‘there. “cannot be much investigative effort with the Limitations: in. “staff tha,t we have now. It would really only. be | at the ‘first of the year. as the investigation proceeds + we would be e advising: | fon a It is, each of the subcommittees as to exactly wha, rm are doing eae ‘with people out in the field and discussing with ‘that “subcommittee whether or not at ‘this juncture ‘there is’ “any: ‘|| probles occurring where we need to use the cubpfena power of 7 3 || emae subcommittee and bring people before the subcommittee "for purposes of obtaining their testimony and, in ‘addition, "discussing, whether or not we have developed certain . material,
1 “even though 1 we have developed it out in the field and we got - it willingly and there was no use to the subpfena power, | 7 ‘but where, as a result of what we have developed, we cought to have a committee hearing to get that fully on the. record” “and under oath in front of that aes mind’ 2 || that at some point there would also be a decision whether ® 2 ee ought to be a public hearing. But that is why. LC a “repeat what I said earlier, the function is to keep ‘the - subcommittee constantly up on whatis going on. Gt is not just a matter of a subcommittee sitting | and. ||| People being hauled in to testify... “Does that answer your question? My. Burke. Yes. As you see it, then, as the subcommittee is informed, cit a is ina private, not a public meeting, as we ee ehough? Me. Sprague. Yes, with a determination then made, "taking “it up with the chairman, really, of the entize committee, “L guess, whether or not certain information which has een “obtained ought now to be put forth on the record | publicly. Let me illustrate again what I mean here. Maybe ace “would help explain at least. my view of it. - | “I related earlier about the information about “this HW vconsay It would not be appropriate just to “convene a Poe “heaving of a subcommittee in the Kennedy assassination just . to subpfene Lovelady from Denver and have him testify. the
“first step is to go out there and interview him and find out: what does he know? What does he say about this other photo- “3 || graph? — G Now we have gotten that information. But that does not : “negate what. is in the original Associated Press photo. We > |} ought not to be just wasting your time and this gets back to. — “how busy the committee members are in other things, We now have to examine this original AP photo, get an blown up,get it looked at, find out whalt is there. it may turn out that that in fact is still a picture of Lovelady. “That ends that area and we will make a report of ‘that to > the ‘subcommittee, but there is no need to have taken, ‘the time ‘up a “in the hearing. age : : Let's take the converse of that. Let' 's suppose, as we | || proceed here and then make that blow- -up of the AP» photo, it “tums out, absolutely, that the. person in the photograph st, “has no beard whatsoever, “that he is wearing a different | shirt | than what Lovelady is wearing minutes later on a pote ok “that is established; at that point I think that ‘the ae mittee might well want to consider, with that kind. of. ne (|| informa tion, bringing Lovelady in, bringing in: the ‘experts 9 |f ana the blow- -up of the ‘photographs, and having a 1 hearing. “Upon getting that on the record, they then might “determine “this is of sufficient interest in the public axel? it “does | | not. interfere with. the ongoing investigation; ‘there might we
“then be an obligation to present that at a public hearing... GP Mat is my view as to the way in which these matters. “would proceed, ot Burke. I see. Chairman Downing. Do you understand? (Bs we Mx: Burke. Thank you very much. “Chairman Downing. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Sprague. Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, before you proceed, may . || 1 request, however , because I. could not help notice that it. was, stated that some material had come in, as I said eee “the document unit is an important unit in ‘ice snnsaget || ana I would request, Mr. Chairman, tha t.each nenber of the” ; "committee, if they should get any informa tion or a any y mean "sent: in to them, that they forward that or.a “copy, of it ‘to me. ete “because then that will (80) into our document unit, “for. that a] eeosd- reference thing: of which I have spoken. ae eo? ohademan “Downing. ° That is a “good suggestion, Mr. Sprague,| “I hope the committee members will do that. Mr, Devine. Mr. Chairman? -’ Chairman Downing. Yes, Mr. Devine. Mr. Devine. In order that we proceed in order and ers — properly, I notice in the minutes of our meeting on September 29 it was. agreed that the chairman be given the authority” to" “employ a person or ‘persons to head the overall ‘administration me
\ and/or legal investigative staffs of the committees so. > Tong. as the actual title of a permanent position: not be given, [J and that the word vacting" be used in whatever title is “selected, na : 7 Now, in response to a question raised dow there, “it “says” any such employment could be made permanent only upon “confix- ‘mation by the committee at its next meeting. es am: merely | ‘raising the question whether ‘formal action is necessitated by these minutes today as. it relates to people that Me. “Sprague mentioned. - -ghairman Down wning. We have already taken formal action. “on. Me. “Sprague. SMe: Devine. Individually, yes. I am wondering about the other persons whose ; resume: have been submitted, or do we want to reserve on that until | a. later meeting? Chairman Downing. tet! s reserve on that, “It was my thought that: should be limited to chief “counsel and/or staff director, top-flight positions; we oat “pot have to do it right down to clerical help. “Let! s “reserve | {fF on: ‘that, if you will. Mee Thone. You did not vote formally, Chairman Downing. The motion made by Mr. Gonzalez and ait has been seconded, that we accept the presentation | as 5 || osterea by the chief counsel; all in favor signify by saying
© 1168" aye; opposed, no. . YD the ayes have it. Thank you. Now, the next item on the agenda is the showing of the Zapruder film. A little background on this film. oes Mr. Zapruder was a dress manufacturer Located in: Dalles, Texas. The morning that President Kennedy was to visit. 7 ‘Dallas: and take this route, Mr. Zapruder and his. secretary “went by and picked up his 8 millimeter Brownie : movie ‘camera |] and was fortunate _enough to get a position of prominence, ||| where he could view. the entire scene. I believe ‘he 3 was vee “standing « on a pedestal supported by his secretary. “In “any a a event, this is one of the few films of the entire évent. = Now there were many cameras around that day, but, appar “ently when the shooting stopped, they very wisely fell. to the ground or for other reasons did not keep a continuous ‘filming of the event. This film has quite a history. Mr. Zaproder: ‘sold it to Time-Life, who kept it gee or agen years and | subsequently, for reasons of their own, sold it back to: vo Zapruder' Ss son for the sum of $1. It has been shown in television, I think, cand | maybe some: J} of ; you have already seen it, but it is, I believe, a. seoreing | | posne, which everybody must see and make their own: 1 Judgment * as to what they do see. The film will be shown by Mr. Robert Groden. 1 do ot see him in the. room.
tha GY we. Sprague, May we send for him? | Chairman Downing. Mr. Groden is known as + ea eee an expert in photography. In addition, he has been Bre "student of this matter for the last clffren t to’ opie x years. so. if Mr. Groden and his assistant will come in, we will ico the lights and see the film. : _. We also ask Mr. Groden to narrate as he goes along what “we are seeing. et : | Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, one correction. Tt is more “than the Zapruder film. He has put together a number of films: | 7 cand slides and single shots taken at that time. : ~ Chairman Downing. Thank you. fi film was shown .J O° ; oe Ee | Chairman Downing. On behalf of the committee, we want | Cantor fis AS: to thank you, Mr. Groden, for a very good. presentation. (cont.of Film) =. fartaro “ 71s Cantor © 4:30 | "Mr. Groden, Thank | you. “Mr. Gonzalez. There is ‘one question I have. ere ca The policeman who had drawn his gun and ended up on || top, was he ever identified in the testimony? ce Mr. Groden. Yes, sir, he testified to the Warren Commission. I am unclear as to his name. it may have fe been ; “Baker. or Smith, but I am unclear as to which one it was. i ex do not know. His testimony is in the volumes of the Warren’ “Committee. - Chairman Downing. | Mr. Groden, will you please stick — “Dockd: 32266815, |Pa
118 > gto around to see if the committee has questions? Yue. Thone. Who is the gentleman and what is his interest “here? ‘tr do not know that I got that. re | Mahe ‘Chairman Downing. Suppose you tell him, Mr. “Groden, : your background, | Mr. Groden. All right, my name is Robert Groden; oT ee réside in New York City. I have been researching the photo- “graphic evidence in the Kennedy assassination case for the. last eiffen years, [I brought and presented this evidence ‘to eee ne “the House of Representatives on several occasions for the » purpose of trying to raise interest in some of the. “unanswered |] questions contained in the photographic evidence. Much of the evidence that you just. saw was never. "viewed | by the Warren Commission. All of it was available to ) them. The Warren Commission as a body never viewed the films that you just saw. The Zapruder film, perhaps the ‘Single most important ee . piece of evidence, was never viewed at all by the. entire — "Commission; indeed, there is only evidence that three or. four, - of the members actually saw it. They did deal with sections | ; ‘of the film in slide form, but in all the millions of words -in- the Warren Commission report, there is not one mention, od “not one word as to the backward motion of the President’ s. ody, a very peculiar point. 1 L was asked to appear here. and present to you. ‘the
119 _ photographic evidence as I have been able to compile it. . . “There is more evidence available. I know where a lot of ait is, but it has not been available for study before. ‘And ‘that who I am and that is why I am here. De. Devine. What has. motivated you during these cYfen ‘yesre, who finances your study? Mr. Groden, - Nobody is financing. I have tTever received : “one p penny in assistance for finding the films, aking the, - “copies, or any of the work. I have done it purely. out. of ae ; “desire to know what has happened, a Griving curiosity and “Perhaps the mystery, What happened to our President?” I wanted to know. I happened to be in the right lace : at. the right time to obtain prints of the films that you Just. ia The original films are available, I know where they are. If there is any question in your minds at all as to the ae of these films, the originals can easily be ‘checked. “Copies of some “of these, the. most important ones, do exist a | ‘in. the National Archives. The prints can be verified for. authenticity very easily, Mr, Devine. Are you employed otherwise? - ar ae > Mr. Groden. I was up until a few weeks ago. _ “There was © oo - a conflict between my job and doing this work. Tr am ‘now 7 eS “unemployed. I am trying to go into business for myself. 6 Bat O ulster eletén years, it seemed to me this was far more important 86 than a. Job that would not allow me to follow through 0 on this me
120. dT type of work. I felt this appearance was more important “and we had somewhat of a disagreement among other things, “and i am now unemployed. Dac. Devine. ctoflen years? Mr. Groden,. How did you sustain yourself during these I have done photo- -optical work as amy: 7 eofeeaton Since 1969, [I developed the techniques which you, “saw here dealing with 8 millimeter blow-up, Miquid- rating. Tr am proficient in step- framing and other photo- optical “techniques. I made my living at that for several years; IL was 8 fortu- | “nate in having the type of machinery available to me, » because there is no way I could have afforded to do this work. * Bench |” time for this type of work runs to about $50 an hour. oa ‘single rotoscope version that. you. saw of just a close- “up of. | ae President’ s head took about Efe hours. to’ shoot, frane at a time, Jone refocusing | every frame, repositioning the oe exact: point, ry os - These are in some cases done from the original film a cand Ain some cases done with a first- “generation copy, of the . fof ote “film, ~ even . cin that ry in the blow-up cases where zooming in, . ‘type of area, would have been physically impossible, oo 53. Bue the Techniques are known and verified and they have | ine caer ‘somie | Cases been recreated, ee. ca ne ere | oe L '. believe last year an attempt was done to “recreate it” 25° ree »Doetd: 32266815] Page
12) by the CBS television network show on the assassination. Again, “the time consumption here would not allow the same ‘type of work to be done, and this has been my specialty over ‘the years, 8 millimeter blow-up. | woe | -Y Ghairoan Down Wning. Let me } ask. a very important question. ae Have you done anything to alter these films SO. as. sto : give a wrong impression of what you see? Mr. Groden. | Absolutely not. The film tha t you saw ah cat the beginning was requested to show the authenticity. of the | : ‘fiim a and the frame sequence, All I have done to. the fim: ist a ffts tiquid- ~gated it to clean it up. I will describe that “process very briefly. | | As the film is photographed in an optical ‘printer from fe the original film to the raw stock or the tmexposed film fons ‘the duplicater, light | passes through the film. If there | “ate any inconsistencies or imperfections in the film, ‘such 7 has s. scratches or dirt, they will be amplified ‘by the Light passing through the film. Lf you take a low-oxygen content, 7 liquid and coat the film as it is being photographed, “tends to make the light go ina straight line: toward ‘the sgt peers cating lens. This is liquid- ~gating. © 7 22 ; F “The other technique W two other technigues: Y used. a oe oné_ is Step- framing, whereby you photograph each frame | more: a || than once to slow it down so that, as it is viewed, “you com one | ‘Prehend what you are seeing better.
‘Pocla: 32266814] 10, 122 Pte third technique I used was rotoscoping, vhich is taking a point of reference and in the aperture, as you. photograph the film, you reposition each frame so that: the ‘game point of reference falls on the same Spot... ‘This way So eliminate the shakiness of that hand-held camera and “telephoto lens. Pe: Other than these three techniques, there has been “absolutely nothing done to this film. The order of frames oh as” you saw them is exactly as they appeared in the ‘camera aes “originally. Nothing has been added, hothing has been sub oe tracted, Be |, ghairman Downing. Thank you very much, | Any further questions of this witness? Mr. Stokes, In your presentation you made reference ‘to some filmed interviews that: you have had with witnesses a “then y you further elaborate upon what happened to the “witnesses, et cetera. Are those film interviews available to “lan” re . Mr. Groden. Yes, sir. I did not mean to give the impression that I had done those interviews. Those “interviews. ‘were: done by Mark Lane and a professional film-maker, OL ‘believe - his. name is Emile D'Antonio. But I am not sure (of the anes “exact name, - ao The film, when edited down, was released as rush hi to Judgnene, “in which many of these interviews do exist. “There aze| Page 90°