Released under the John F. Kennedy Assassination 
Records Collection Act of 1992 
(44 USC 2107 Note) 
NW 53216 6/17/17
104-10227-10012 Reed mo ia AG nus t 1963 (cont tnued from Keel #loy) TRANSLATION NR. Ten, the Tenth ee She ts... What does it do now Nost recently, han been aa radl tne, eotablishingy and securing Countinications in the hotels ond rostaurants, in connection with ~ a ‘ f ‘ tho foroigners, Ten, they had coumunications with Le ‘motor pool, and thoy had a number of vehicloen and taxis for ‘the employees: use == ((that 1s)) .. by officers | ((workine)) aratast foreigners. wo a" A. Do you think this is logienl for the Seventh Directorato to: be ‘ located tn ‘the. budlding of the Meter School: -B. Woll, it ts next. door. (xGy . . me ne is a A. ‘Is ‘this loyical or not -— that the covert poévonned of the Sovonth . ns . ' Directorate be situated in pullding #20 or in the Wigher School of *"p RR ee se Reps oe BY I do not know whether it is logical or not, but, nost recently, they were there, A, Alright, we will finish tne discussion ‘on. this until the next time, B. They absolutely aro there even now. Well, I have in mind, until January, They were there in January 1964, - The Tenth Departnent., Well, what do you think -= can IY believe you, that you do not know
104-10227-10012 ny : PB, A. B: ; AL 'B, ‘AL ; B. ; A. j waerg the Conuitttee of Tiforantton (G.0)) was situated I never wes there, not once And ‘then you confused everything, Ynat is ((to say)). dm 195341954, when How could there be a Comaittco of Information there was not any. The thing ‘is that the enployden. camo to us, later, when tho Committee ‘of Information had boon liquidated, I think they camo later around 1957. There. was’ BRLIKOV, STAROTORZ ISKLY we they worked in ‘the Seventh  pepartment. You-do not know these. simplest things about tho oryankzation of KGB, , : UG), Don OR Fa *, am te where was the Firat’ Chiet Diner tora'te: : . You said it was around the Agr foultural Exhibition, =. ‘Wherere . - a oe te me Og ee I never was there once; I did not go there. ‘Kear the Agricultural Exhibition, there is a bugo building. / What was there before: I do not know; I never went there, . ; Sonewhere there, near the studio, the motion pie ture studio, Well, what was in this building carlter. I do not know; I was not thero. >
104-10227-10012 B. A, B. A, B. A. You would not haye to have Leen there; all the iinucow residents “know about. Lt. ((Paune)) that do you know about. PANYUSHK IN. ((Pause)) I heard that, in the past, ne had beer an onployee of HG. ° Employoo of the GR. An ambagsador in the. USA, “But upon returning fron America he worked in Ts%.. In January 1964, he was working in tho cc CPSU; ae hoadod tho Exits” _ Commission ((Commission. on Exits From tho Country)), which din 1962, Or OGL, became a departnent, A Dopar tment for Exits Abraod, ae - a Yes, , a oe CO i oo What kind of responsibilities, what kind of relationship. docs the . ; Second’ Chief. Directorate have with” this dopar taent: The llth Department, ‘the Exite: Dopartnent, maintains close contact “with the Exits. Departnont, ‘ita _ former Commission... -’ When did PANYUSHKIN work in KGL’, or tn NGB; or. WD, or... In KGB; I ‘donot know when he worked; I heard that earlier ho had worked at one time in MGB, . After that, he became Ampassador to Amer ica, Whea he returned fran America, he worked tn the CC of the Party. ((Pause)) Well, you do not tnoy that he was the Ashbassador to Chinn, ((Pause)) You do not. know. ((Pause)) What was his position under KRUGLOV and SE2 Waar cecil wy, San rales, fie, JERS ORL
104-10227-10012 Be ((Pauises fe worked tn CC under UfccLuv and SE RO¥ . A, C(Paune)) who wan Citel of ver tay. eanemme. at that tbne: Be I do not EnOw, a de not know, - A. Do you nowy vAo it was under KRUGLOY B. I also do not I:now, A, Well, who _ Chk of. the First ‘Directorate: : : oo 7 : a B. I do not renember, Lf -A, And, under BEROV? B. (1G) SAGiMUROVSKIY. . A, In what year did SAKIAROVSKIY become Chief: BL oY cannot tell ‘you in -what year, : r Ae (Pause) ‘Very, well; you do not ‘iniow who was Chior of Intel1ic ence - . ; . . ° : under IRUGLOV . a 2 ts ee — 3 fnd under’ Seno: : ‘ E B. SAKHAROVSETIY. . os ; # A, Wao was Chief under GERIYA: = B. I do not “now, = & | < A, Namo at least one Deputy ~~ for 1953, or 1954, 1955, or 1936, e B. ((Pause)) Before the arrest, there vas one FY :DOSEYEY, before BERIYA's ee Arrest. :
4 : ros 104-10227-10012 OAL Well, UL aw asittay “under BERIYA® , B, Well, Io mean a. during RERIYA'S tine. A. I told you earlier that FEDOSEYEY did not serve then as Deputy. But we will put hin down. Who else, B. ((Pause)) 1 do not remember who else; I do ‘not remember. ((Long pausc)) I said that -RYASNOY. ‘was Chief of. intel Ligence. at one time, and : ; BAVCHENKO was, 7 And FEDOTOV was, at one time... prior to..... ‘A. I have heard about this. ° “((Pause) ) Who followed then: : You know those who wore chiefs prior to you ((your enployment)) . B. Yes; I heard ((of them)). Ls = A. °...But, when you worked there, when you were working there, who was BB. © did not havo to go therd, and I, I “do not know. a a « heard, ‘starting. with BAHAROVSKIY. a . When he was appointed, I cannot ‘tell you. : A. But approximately whon? , oo . ((Long pause) ) If you worked there in 1953-54, when did they . complete the new annox to the Wigher School of the MVD or the KGB, however you want: to call it: B. I worked on tourist from 1955... 80 |=! we ciuecked the records, “and here there was the Operational Records Departmont, a part of it. And we ehecked them on Kisel'nyy Strect, in the filcs of the red ((First Chief Directorate)), the archives of the PGU, And, at that time, still -}. in 1955 <. the work still was going on.
104-10227-10012 Tt-wthll had not been. conpleted., What other schools du you know about You have nent toned Kisol'nyy Street, Leningrad Hirhway, << what others do you know. Shee And” then I heard about the existence of School 101, What is this, the School 101: This is a school of ‘the First Chief Directorate? ‘What kind of a school ts it: A typo of intelligenco ‘school. - And what else: a = oe beg Ten there 1s a school for deputy. residerts and residents; I heard — - about this, Where is this school: The one school and the otter are outside of Moscow. — Aad where is the Bence: 101 Somewhere on Minsk ehway . And what other schools are there, that. you know about? I do not know any more, And, in the Second Chief Directorate, what kind of schools does it have.
104-10227-10012 Be B. Tacre were not any schools. Are you .sure, There were not any, Wo will-call it quits for today. ((End of 9 August 1965 sessfon))
104-10227-10012 (C10 Aucuset 1)8S)) (Glost of the “XG" in the transeript are the result of the poor readability of the recording)), PA ((The ruards talk while arranging furniture, etc., tn the room.)) B. Hello. A. Good ‘aay: Well,. how-are you feeling: B. Not. so good and not especially bad, Of thoso questions which you asked’ me yesterday... ((XG; poor recording .)) . +e SAKIIAROVSKIY... PITOVRANOV , - doputios. . (1G). KOROTKOV., | Then, .1f I am not mistaken, PANYUSIIKIN jas Chief of. Intol1igexée aan 7 at one tine. . I do. not know; it- wag bofore my work: ((began)) in 1953: : , . ; i . (Gin. English)): Taat's wrong. 2 2 te ne Foes teeta nS” oy ((XG; poor recording .)) - PITOVRANOV was’ there, for your information,. when you were not... if you told the truth when you said you began work in. 1953, I heard that PITOVRANOV at one time worked in the Second chie¢ Dinec torate w= he was Deputy and also Chief. And Deputy Minister. And Deputy Minister, and he was in prison (4 sidel), with SNUDNYAXOV. * ARAGEtiy, thot tad te eS CART aS AM ites i! ae a Dare tibet Rea ig u 3 rt nf G4tto hute f + (oe! zeae SS
104-10227-10012 ile wan dn pe Ison wtt SHUPUY ATION... aelG) . A. but this in no way cont birrius “Ctite statenoent)) that you vworsed thera; because Buch mistaken an wen have made (3 ‘G) dows: not fit. And nlimply want to renind you once arain, whille we gttll are Tee, talkin: in a. friendly way, that you. still havo tine to he a rerular: person, ‘Toan taiking nbout lcading a normal Life and to continue to do so. But timo ta running out, B, I ‘honestly ((am’ telliny:)) you, A, (1-26) Il am vory much, afraid that you wa he’, (Gin English) ) very: sorry for ‘yoursol?. ‘vo talked about this, and I have repeated it several so We already h | times; and today I an ‘repeating DY sain (2-36). . os I certainly ‘fin not playin whith you; I an spear ins very ser ously , , 4 ‘to you ~= J do not decelyve Anyone, ame I do not tntend to: dees sive” you... ae. ; . . And fron such a’ aituation in waich ‘you. Nave | put yourself, ; . and fin | Which you find yourself. ‘there. is no “way out except: for you to. toll ‘the truth. oR vas sss po tho truth, .. only -you do not want to understand no. You understand: -- you (XG), . aad ; You do not want to understand ne, You want, .. well, let us say, 1953:.. for you, this (XG), "How does he not know this. oat is : but I do not know, perhaps .because I had just arrived there (XG). Well, please, if you vill say, “Who was ((there)) in 1958, 1959, 1960.", then here I ((can)) speak freely % ((XG3 ‘poor recording)) But in 1953, I had just arrived, and you ((as':)) such questions!
104-10227-10012 AJ UY you horn te work tn tae Ruler the wGn in lav, Lio, or Lose, thei say so, a # Bb. Well, neo, no, no; To beran in Maren 1952, ; gut, ways understand: Aman has. just arrived... ((XG; A and Bo speak at the sane tine)) \ But why did you say earlier that you bogan wort in 1952, - | Whe drarces this out of you. .. B, I do not know why 1952; I began in 1053, Lo .. I do not know. ; i AS “I do not know"; I also do not know, B You do not want to understand <= neither you nor your colleasues. A... There is nothing to undorstand, - Everything is as clear as. white. snow; I Nave told you sevoral tincs, P, You do not want to understand, — - i (XG; A and, B speak at the sane tinc)) A. You were not there; that is all, i 4 You do not xnow which of the Secretarics of the CC CPSU was Deputy Minister, | i 5 . I told you I do not know, A. Then you were not there. S. How can you say I was not there
104-10227-10012 A. Very state. B, (XG) After all, one can ehvek this sonehow, . : . A. A man io has wesked ahows, Ceutiot aod jaw CuaG ia no way, B, One can cheek thts == whothor [ worked there ov not, ctc. This is not an bir secret. (2G) ono can check, A. We know; we can check, ,((we)) know what to check and how. to check... B, I am not tolling you how to. chock... 7. GT know my namo is thoro: ) A, -We. know that your namo is there; wo told you this earlier, whon-. _ Cyou talkod about how)) you registered. the ABIDIAN filo, fo. Porhaps you roristorod Xt, but it: doos not moan -you wore “work ing” thores . ae B,. But, 1 worked thore from 1953, < = oo . A, You yoursolf said that you did not look so food, on tho’ ABIDIAN Cage..." : and all the rest. | , et ~ ee nes. - And not only in the oporntional: cases, but in your on porgonal ; history, as woll, +8 Again, again, -you waht... like this, Like this... you take everything; a man's whole life has been overturned, A manta sole life, Aman is imprisoned; he is arrested -- for what: Only for lack of knowledre,.. of different versions, — A, We iknow "for what"; there is no kind of verston, only single facts, ((Pause)) Do you want to say anythinr more:
104-10227-10012 nO; You wholly reject every thing, B, You wholly refoet every thing, Whatever Ivsay, you wholly reject it. You clearly are posing questions tn a tendcentious manner <= "Aha; he docs not now this.” C(XG; A and B speak at the rane time)) - hee, A. IT an not drarising | ‘this out, of yeu == you yourself aid that PANYUSIICIN was thero before 1953, This ie, nongonso. B, I told you as I remombored, A, Anyone, can gay ‘as 1. renomber", you! line t ‘that you were: thero, but you do not know absolutely, B. I was there from March 1953 until January 1964,. oe, . “AL (XG). B,:. (XG) There: ig | ao  EXCUBC n@ == a very crude e: ‘preston ~= ‘why’ ‘doos | Q priest nood a.... a a : Why do I need thisy | - 4 A, That 1s correct. (XG) . OO oe fe B. The question is about ny life. Well, ‘how sov - oj i A. Absolutely right; the question is ahout your life; and I already : told you «j= there is still the opportunity, but soon these 490 days i , will turn into 4,000. . . . : Mark ny words, _ a ; You will remember me. . .
104-10227-10012 ww service, i | Under wiat edreu is Lance Ana Waere Iwas not enlisted for military service, ((Pause)) It means you were not enlisted anywhere for active military : : 4 Well, just a minute, Do you not have in mind those years spent at the military school» 1 * G ((uchilishche)): , |, ey, “Prondvatt-acers; preadratt-agers, Well, you have to understand that persons entering into # military A. BEHOD.,, " military acadentes, fas so: forth are. weteptad Likewise according. to the ir are. _ 7 j . And in these military schools, they are enlisted for actual military 0... ‘ service, OS | ag . -It is another. thing that there are a nunber Of schoola which. they enter beforo they have turned 15, and they Study in these schools —< for exanple, the Hakhtuov and ‘Suvorov. Schools, ete. -- tliey “study nilitary Sake, 4 they conplete- ‘their hasan school . education, and then they go “go n ‘adlitary school or a military acadeny , or: sonevhere 61s0; ‘then, they are enlisted for - ‘actual military service. , “* While one still As ina Nathinov or. Suvorov “school , he sti21 is not: , in’ military service. , That you were in a proparhtory “cenoo; and too!: the oath =~ that is nonsense, 7 or I want to begin frou herc. B. Everyone too!: the oath; nct only I, A. That is nonsense, ((XG; A and B speat: at the sane tine)) B. They did not call me into the Army, because [ studied at the
104-10227-10012 my your wad called and the students Tnestitute of Internattonal Eelations. s veceive an exemption Cotsrochiia). An exemption -— agreed; then, it means that you never wre called for active nilitary serviec, you did not serve, in the Aruy during this time you were tn the Institute, Fhat year did you enter the Institute. In tho summer of 1945, In the summer of 1945, you entered the Institute of International Relations, ‘The Moscow Stato Institute of International Relations, iow old were you. at that time. Well, in the surimer... let us calculate = July, August; righty I was 17 years. old, plus 7-3 nonths, - I had not yet turned 13, You were 17 years old, 7+3 months; and you wore 18.0... 000 6" on. x When I began studying in the! Institute. y eye You were (13) 06. In October. ..-L2 years old in October 1945, Now, we have established once and for all that you did not have actual military service.... I was not called. . You were not called; and the reason was that you were attending
104-10227-10012 tie Institute; you were a Btuceonb at that thar, Taig ts understandable to Cveryonc, udcaurne there are no reasons ° to have a calleup at tha institute; (2606) at that tine, the war wag comin to an end.... LB, The war had ended already. A, Well, there was still, with Japan...-. _B.” Oh, yes. ...with Japan, A, (Cin Enjlish)) 0.K, We will tako this as the, basis -= and in October, you wore 13 years old. At that timo you were at the InstLtute of International Relations, -. Did you ecver have a military rank of scrieant ‘or-naster sergeant: . 4 Bias saan cian D.: Wo, mah : : rams oa Hover. - _ | Lb hy en ae you.first get your officer's rank? Poort wees 6 Tn 1947, all of the students in my course were riven tho rank of ‘junior lieutenant in tho reserve, . at L i A. “In what month was this. _ bal !((Pause)) I cannot tell you for sure; I think it was upon completion ‘of the second year, the second year. ‘In 1947, you were given the rank of junior lieutenant in the. ‘reserve. In what service: ms oie °
104-10227-10012 What was your milttary spocialty €(oranceh of service)) Vell, you wore made a junior lteutenane,., “BL ALL students were ytven, i A. I know “to niL- of the students"; you see e= there As tag! Junior Licutenant (XG). B. No, no, no; Juntor lieutenant of the reserve, A. Junior Licutenant in tho resorve; of wrich branch of; sorvico: B,. ((Pause)) . I do not remember which tranch, ‘of service; Junior first, E “i ijeutenant of the reservo; that is all. en, A, ‘Yoll, junior first licutenant -- this is the rank for ali ((services)), There 4a a junior Licuten ant in the Army, Air Forces ; in the Navy, | -in the Avtilory, in tho Tanks Troops = every where, | vhs t was your military specialty: ; I have in mind == how nust the- Ministry ‘ot pegstise take: account. ot Say, a war has berun,- and you are called Up; where sa en pet ne ms en po By: Nothing” “was: tidicated there where they” would take ‘us’ in casa of. WAR “They tale into ‘Account in what institute you are studying, what os of you know, ; Let us begin from hore; so == you becane a first Lieutenant. in tho Poo reserve in 1947, at the end of the school year. ‘Let us agree on this. Bb. Yes, yes. A. When, approximately: 4 Hi : 4 ' B. Well, June, June,
104-10227-10012 AL (Cin Unelicn)) | O.n., June, re It could have been in June,, Tacre: Je a pertod wacn you. are wilting for ordorgs, A, Well, wo are talking about when you becanoe, , B. At the ond of the second courso, “Aw ...At tho ond of the second course, tn tho. summer of 1947, B. Sumnor of 1947. | . _ ; an . Fine; through which purtency coniitadartat | An tho GRY - of Moscow mo ” did this commission Lo. _—s , low was this formalized: - Through Waich rayon military conniasartat of .the city of Moscow was tho rani zivan to you and the students, rn Be Tho rank was piven by order: of “the Ministry. A, Without formalization through the nllitary comnismariat.. 2 ‘But in tho: military. conmissariat | ‘they received (the, military _ | Adentttteation papers) in “which, it. was’ written junior aya Ileutenant , in the resorve, . 7 : ‘A, Woll, tell mc, how.was this fornalivation actually carricd throurh «=< - to make you a junior first licutenant: in. the reserve. Through which military commissariat did it Co, and how was this done? B. I do not remember these details, tut I think that it was ((done)). - “according to onc' J placo of residence, throuch the nilitary comissariat where I was on the rolls. ‘ A. Well, wien did you receive your first nilitary identification the
104-10227-10012 we bk do not ines se PNAC stats; well, uavine ‘in mind, officer or not. ©, Woll, officeru, vino were in the inatltute.., A, Do you have in mind a private, a serjeant.... ~ RB, I was a.soldter (soldat). SOA. Utlitary rank: a ~B. None, 2 | a Loe oe A. MiLitary rants. You had none. Further, military specialty? ; Po , 7" oO ke ((Pausc)) Everyone is registered in the reserve on tho basis of their education... B.. No education. A. And go forth, | B. High school: I understand, =. . i. It 1s given for aiiltary specialty, you understand: -B well, what lind of military specialty ‘can a man have if he has only a hich school education? Pot Tuat is, (NG)... It is another thing that they save ne officer's rani; then, probably a. I do.not know if they wrote it in or not == they vrote in “inter~_ 1 ' preteretranslator”. Why. Because wo had passed an e:anination in military translation in
104-10227-10012 Pailish | mut, here, no nilitary Speetalty ar Ray ltind, Well, you do not’ iknow, Ico nce “ean to teis You, oue £ i:noy what there WAS. Further, there is the ‘ues tion of tne desirnation Of the military rer ‘istration desk for the Place of residence of the person ‘Bubjoct to draft, Weve, {t is tritten 2 "Which military comaissarfat. "||| "Of which rayon?" .., Wich rayon was it? “I do not’ remember i. ((The one)) for the Place of residence on Granovsiiy Street. r 8 Further -. this Ls the first: the nilitary renistration desk, tere is the military  Povietration des's loéated.. In the Military Connissartat. You do not know — ‘the military reristration des!: is located; Further, there is. the: nilitary | conmissariat: -< “The military commiissariat for the Place of residence®™ “Well, some rayon, Sono kind of rayon; but vhich rayon, you do not know, Further «= the next question: ."Have you been removed fron the military rolls or not." Then, "No", (XG)... If you are fit, then for Waich servico.
104-10227-10012 { | Ay For vhat gory tee weve you daclared fit (C eas tt wrbtten tn )). B. Line (stroyevoy), AL "Fit tor Line troops", . BL Yes, absolutely. we \ A. Next queetion: "Was a draft deferment rranted: B. "In connection with study at an institute," A. "Until what tine." | ; . - A deferment was granted for study at tho Institute in Accordance po” oo Dak , ; i with a decree of the Council of Peoplo's Conmissars. (1G)... A. -Now we have cone to the military identification. You do not now “hat they ‘wrote, for-you there, ar ; . otf) eos SEG, I : ghee Soyer rTP Te fem fe TE Se —-« peBEitey ohi att A, Now, whon the nilitary identification... (XG) MVD... B. I do not renenber, I do not remember, (XG) A, Yell, approxinately: At the end of 1945 or the berinnaing of 1046; I renenber that it was at this tine; I do net remember ((exactly)). 4 A. Then you received the ollitary identification, were subject to the draft «= you are on the ailitary ralls in the nilitary comatssariat —
104-10227-10012 at your place of restdence, and you have a duferment in connea tian with studies; further «<8 howenny ttmes were you called to the | nklitary coasniacariat before they made you an officer B. I do not rendabher, A. ‘hen did they open an officer's file on you in the nilitary \ conuissariat,’ . . B. Well, probably, vhon they avo the now mfllitary identification, In the military comuissariat it was written Officer in tlie resorve,° A. So m/= shen did they issue the new military iLdentificat lon? A, In 1947, in the suuner, they {ssued you a new military. identification, Mat was the difference between the old and the new idontifleat ton; ; ‘B, ‘Tae color of the cover. was difforent, a E Dut the basic difference was that you were. an officer, nota soldier, a junior licutenant.in the. resorve, - — fe - . we fh a . Dut there was nothing related ‘to Navy service. coe ‘ 5 at ree eee See EIS SE ee ST ee ee SE ene See ee ee te ee tee ee eB ee ae : apes op B, Absolutely nothing; nothing, nothing. A. And what was there on the military identification -- a star or an anchor: B. No, no =a star, of course, ' A. Then, there ras no connection whatsoever with your Navy service, of which you have tallied. B. (1G) No, none, avsolutcly.
104-10227-10012 aA. (Ctn Nnelish)) Os Tacn a ntl tary rant ens (riven to you: juntor lieutenant tn the reserye;, iat you do net huow ino vileon fervice. sou vere aan tioned, Waiat was wr Ltten there, for e:niple ao engineers personnel, command personnel, polttieal personnel, (1G) persennet, ov something olga. Every map, even if he had not served tn the Army, who has received officer tan 9 must be asstrned to sone ((service)). {f there 1s A war tonorrow, the military commissariat must male sone sort of conclusion. --B. I had nothing == neither. political nor anythinz oclsoe... AL Well, if thore was not anything, then it is difficult to heLiove - that you. had A mat ned idontification. | - ee Wold; “wo “will assunc that ‘in tho summer of 19:7 thoy gave you the. os a, rank of junior licutensant, . a coe _Well, how long were you a junior lieutenant in the reservo 4 B, Until formalization in the People's Commissariat of Defense. That is, tho Ministry of Defenso; that -is,"'the Ministry of tho Navy. A. In which month: Be The formalization began in the spring of 1950; it .bezan in the spring; prior to the stato examinations beran at the institute. A, Alricht; nevertheless you were not in the military service as yet. 'B. No, no, no, no, A, (XG) You aro on the rolls of the military comnissariat until tho —_—
104-10227-10012 fo djd not receive aunt fors: in Moscow: T had an oovercant made for mgoell, a tunte and a jaciet In Noscow, why did IT have tt made: fecause my father cot the natertal, He received material for wniforn annually, And thig matorial WAS Sayed and piled up at homo. Iohad a rood overcoat, a tunic and a jacket, with trousers made of food material, : ; ; A. flow did you travel to .the Far East: B. I travelod in civilian clothes; but-I had the oa 2k with me; I ‘travolod by train, f nd""s6 for ti 2,. Thero were no train transfers -at all, all of ‘the way to Khabarovsk; not one train transfer; there were no transfers from Moscow to H . Khabarovsk, i - ; A. Is At slay procedure that an officer. can _ travel in civilian elotues: You. were traveling to. your- military. unit, BRB. OST recoived- “nothing olse with that ‘clothing, and. -equtpent Supply sith eerie ngs ny epee ae et AS Re ee ee LM | oe eortificates pPgeenings menlloncgeyttieeork I presented the certiz leato, and I received a Whole When I arrived, uniform. A Neate teeta etme ne am vnen eoiece If you did not receive anything in Yoscow, what was written in. the = certificate. CL. This certificate was issued so that when I was placed on the rolls after I had arrived, it vould show that I had not received anything, a (4G). They issucd a returns certificate and a clothing and equipnent ere supply certificate, —_— she nem et
104-10227-10012 A. Wohl, alyilat; To thins cunt sien cvery aan ds enlisted in the GR, tae Navy, om any other military mnit, nc receives a iniforn, when heing inducted, ete. , p asenmsa Taey... I did not ret acy uniform. (XG) co ‘hee, (XG) but there is no basis for beliog, You can insist as much as you vain, that you came to the Far East in civilian clothes, I arrived in civilian clothes; we. wore civilian clothes in eho: Par “A, B: That can be. if he works — And, by regulation, an ‘officer can wear civilian clothes, only with. he can work in civilian clothes. It can be, but not every there. . - Tee ee ae a “It is ‘Rot permitted to wear civilian. ‘clothes, (ag) eae cnotupermittea sto. wWarve ivititan-erstiied No doubt: ‘ttiore are reasons. ee ee terme Ee EE oe RENEE Te Pa Ra Benen Pate BARE ULI Reh pen tale RE “We. will nat talk about this. Nhat was written in the finance certificate: You had received HORT s yet. I received elothiig and equipment supply ({and)) rations ((certificate) I received only per dien. x And vhat == was it indicated in the finance certificate how nuch you reccived per dien: I do not renemher, I do not remoenber; I renenber that I receiver per
104-10227-10012 dia mut, was there a finance certificate. I do not renonber, The clothins and equipment sunply and rations ((certificates)) I i -renenber, Well, at the end of 1950 you wo ore a Jun tor licutenant; when did you " receive the next rank and where: i Tae military unit... 90176, Intelligence of itho Seventh Fleet. 7 I will ten you nowy a=. r was promoted in rank in 1951, April 1951, In the military unit 90176, Intollig¢ence of the Seventh Fleeet, 1 Yes. When was this: . Now, let “us Sce == what month was thats... 7 Doe ew, oe Doon, Only six months passed by... (1G). - co 7 Well, if six months had passed, when was itz In April 1951, you were pronoted to Iicutenant; here, you already had your ‘officer' S identification? I received the officer's identification as svon ag I arrived. You cannot give me the exact date -- when you were civen the rank of a junior licutezant and when you were made a licutenant: I was nade a junior licutenant in October of 1950 » and lieutenant -.
104-10227-10012 {fn April LG, A, Then one may Gay that for the first lime in your ltse yoit bean to serve in the Army in Oc tober 1250, when you were offickally enlisted for work in the Navy GRU, with the rank of Junfor Lleutenant. B; So. A. ((Pauso)) When did you becone a senior lLicutenant? Bed became a senior Llicutenant -= I began working in March 1953 o— in April 1953, yes, immediately -= only a month had passed by, because . my tine in prade already was up, B. ((Speats with uncertainty)) This was in MVD SSR... in the Second. ‘ Directorate, ‘A, Well, very well, in the MVD USSR; but’ there was no Second Directorate >at that time. - a homes memes oa! ° ~ 10: Shy Directorate” (1G). . : .. more’ vas na second Directorate in horit 1953, tox your internation 7 B. I have thoursht about this question; there was a Second Directorate. | A. It is established by all facts that there was HOHE; please..... | B. Tnere was 2 Second Directorate; there was a Second Dgves tona te. } A, Why do you.insist on soncthing that did not exist? . Vho needs it. | PEATH EW. Mapa Wosae
104-10227-10012 G.  ieeause To heean vor: there, Fen Cinow; in the Secend ives lorate, A. “no Bitined the orders for FOUL pverotion tn ran: Pr, * do net YSmemoer, ‘ A, Well, who wroeto the reconmendation (kharalturisttia), m. The Chtofs of tho departnuent ‘rote it; the Chief of ny Scetion was " , a0 A, ((Lonz pause)) What part did Personnel play in this mattor, I do not renenher “Mhat role,- in promoting ‘you to: senior: 2£outon ant, awe Rn. .This all cocs throuzh the Personnel Departnent, : ; ; A, Well, vhat part did Personnel play: . : . am we Se, ‘Mat. did thoy do: I Rat trete ge tee MRT TR, tt Oe ort reread A; C(Lony ‘pause)) Do + you now that -. during the period ((Cof the nonthad) of Narch, April, Hay, June == not one man in MVD Was. promoted. | oy } BR, Tiam avave that I received na progotion to senior Licutenan A. "is fe just your e::planation -< "No one received a ‘promotion, but I: did", . , 7 10 one was promoted at that tine. Bp. Well, Way are you telling me then, when I was promoted.
104-10227-10012 SS. Phen, belloue <6 fren want ttue Pad’ woaat ltue were uo preaottons wee piven to-odaveng bn uvp And when dtd they remupia elyine then a. If you wovked there, . BB. ((Pause)) I do not remember this problem: this i ay feo: it could have been... etther KRUGLOV... when they did not pay’ us for rank «=< that ds how Jt could have been ‘| A, Do not return to that because that information of yours js inot truo, and I do not’ take na hase on aAssunptions, I want only tho clear and clementary truth. “And “neve ‘is my question == no one “in March, April, Hay ,: and Juno, "ub em ote, «<I do not” want to continue, you must know -~- ota promotion, B. But I pot n Promotion. == my time in grade was up fin, , 1955, at the “end 6? 1955 yot.. “that AB at tho end of: 1952, “It 1s of no importanct that your time” in grade ‘vas up ~- - many "Pale - ot and not ¢ only. thousands of. ‘people werd Sverdas for proniotions; “Ge 4, “Lieutenants, “but wa jerd; 1 Tieiitenant éo1éhols," colons Ey ut no on at ee en ee one got promotions’, an a ots oo oie tt tpn LE nn Se a ne a There was not one ((promotion)) order, | B. But I am tolling you the way it was. A, This is again something that just does not fit tn any way. B. Why can it not ber I had been made no senior lieutenant in 1959, ((xG; A and 3D speak at the sane time))
104-10227-10012 _remenbor , In 1959, he announeed to all, but to me -- no -- and he called me out of the croup; when everyone Left, he spoke with me, because vhen in 1959 f was put up to bo. promoted to major, and he talked it over with Personnel --- a presentation was written up for promotion to major,” But there is the Efficiency Reports Coumtsston, and it is tho Efficiency Reports Counlsston which mates the promotlous in rank. Probably the Chief of Personnel reports out the promotions, so tho cnployces will know. In any case, there was a prosentation to pronote me to najor, but I was promoted to captain, Why did thts happen’ . They could not put you up for major, when you. wore only a senior, licutenant, You see how it wag aw~ I started telling you but you interrupted MO = I was put up for captain at tho end of 1955 or tho SesaAe ae of 1956, There was one LYALIN on* ‘tho Commission. , - ile was Deputy Chief of the ‘Second Directorate in 195441955. At the end of 1955 ‘or: the bey inning of: 1958, ho became SEROV' . deputy, And he wee-on thie comniss Lon on ranks . Mo hoard =~ "Oh! He made a mistake:"; he does not allow it, ‘Let him wait; let him wait: u And then,. later, they began to scot my affairs in order -= here, in the Directorate -- "How doos this happen." -- that I have received two penalitics, punishments for errors; I had been arrested -- then I was punished; and it turns out that there was a second penalty ~~ the pestponement of my promotion. This cannot be; even, according to the statutes, n person cannot be punished twice for one error. .. But they do not rive promotions to those who have been punished until the punishment has been lifted. SECRET a SAA Wath Aten das
104-10227-10012 B, Well, I know the story ‘It. became known that I showe It wis Vifted, kt was lifted -< there wan none m« they lifted it tn 1955, Very. well; we will return to your puntsanent. When did they inposoe the penalty on you, and for sat. In 1954.... When: In. tho gunner of 1954; do -you want me to toll you how it happened =< ((Pause)) Briofly. I becane infected with a venereal diseano, a Well... you know... I had never had such a thing... I had heard... from friends... and..., . about the infection...-as you told it, - da passport, a cover ((passport))., ((Pause)) In whose name was the cover passport: eof. I think {t was in the nane, SEPGEYEV; it ((the address) ) was-an apartment on Vakhtangov Street, The given name, patronynic of SERGEVEV~ . I do not remember, Very well. Let us take a break ((in Enclish)) for lunch. (CLUNCH IRMEAN))
104-10227-10012 ie ts feo — ~ = a ~ wowus (Cin Enrlish}) lanca ((Fause) ) Is there anything you vant to any 5S. Et is hard to sit there, You see; I will tell you now, ‘To had threo dociments in LISSe1S-f -- three passports, As soon as I heran =< I do not even remenber the name (fon the missport))...it was the ((safe)) apartment on Markalevsxty Street... it was at the end of 1953 or the bes inning: of 1954 .- {| gave up this apartnent, | Now (Cnex t)) ew- after the arrest of BERIYA ow. the dezartnent obtained an apartment on Krasnyye Vorota Square, in a tall building. — Here I was as either. YAKUSIIIN or as YAKOVLEV... and, this was - aT was. as)) SERGEYEV,.on Mnceigoy, (Street) )e sete WoLL =thodo. doe MASHTES 2280 “your understand, me“proper ly esHyS (CBs “ surnano)) docs* not renember exactly’ how ‘tt Wag -= these docunents i always aro kept in the apartment, &y You use them only (1-2G). And, whon you co to the apartuent, you take them witua you. That is why you did not understand me exactly. Tne samo with SERGEYEY, ee =: = a a : rder to: ‘clear. ss. UP let | us: > boil in: with, this Be! - ° — Teld ve in. order all of. "the. nanes. watch you weed walle | you worked. a me pee OM. Perera. ae wd oe ee im the. KGB_organs.or- when.you- were: connected. with ‘thens;~ ‘Or. even---- oy eee ee Nefore then -- all of the nanecs bain t you used, beginning with the RB, (1-[G) I used no other names hofore I vortied in the organs, A. Yall, vory well; you did not use any other names before you started Pari ba roses fey ts Si Fy Wale Haaren Heart ber ri worl: in the orsans. . ’ B. Yes. eg A, ((in Enplish)) Alricht; = : 5 ee fc, f Ee
104-10227-10012 Ti0so names wiich vou used tn Ene orcans, in connection sith your One vn thonadl wor: > When I cane to work J recelyed a ftle on gare apartment Number 7, A. CE (@@aleenpartnent)), BR. Number 7; A, ‘Nunber 7 uarkhicvstty Street, ‘hat nane dd you use taere. DC. I.do'not renenber; there was already a passport and everything, B. After DERIYA's arrest in 1952, and when: the Inspectorate had been abolished <= this is an. interepting detail: . therc was a waole number of Apartnents tfiten PERIYA. an... ‘hich the Inspectorate had. (iG) One apartuent fell. to the ‘Eastern De partnent , and one ~~ I know oe to us La the First Depar taent; both ‘of then, in the tall buttdiig On | Krasnyye Yorota Square. (XG). A, Alricht; let us not screw around, “If you are poins to talx about it, tell it as it ts, . ‘ B. I give you my honest word ~~ specifically, this apartment which we received, The Inspectorate as such did not have such an apartnent, they did not ‘need then. B, Wow not. I recetved this apartment fron the Inspectorate. ” A. You do not even know with what the Inspectorate is concerned,
104-10227-10012 Ablrtecht, in bios, after Frairvats Rerest, what nan did yar uso P fg asf EB, I tld net use it; t received an gpartuent, and T received a passport{ “se J - fn the nane of either YAKUSHIN or YAROVLEYV., there vag a passpert Arr (Gviich used tho address of)) the tall building, \ 7 A, Thon the passport was itn the ain’ ot YARUSILIN, ve RB, Or YANOVLEV. | A. YAKOVLEV; thre adn nane was SERGEYEV. B. SERGEYEV == that was on Vakhtangov ((Stroct)). \ i BRRGEEe Ryobi Westie: we nn Be In ‘the First. Departnent, 1 did not sirn for any documents -- netther poe a ~ (16) nox any thing: elso, . When I be:rran working din the Seventh Department =~ vauethes it was in 1955: or 1956 == § had a pagsport, ‘and I Had it until tho end, in the name of NIKOLAYEV , A: ‘And NIKOLAYEV's ‘given nane and patronynic. ane rent SCOT A. What other nanes did you have. You used... B. I used them in my contacts, with the tourists. A. ‘Which nanes: B. SERCEYEV.... And I used nanes without docments. -~ NOVIKOV, SERGEYEV, IVANOV
104-10227-10012 NR. I do aot remember; [To know that FEDOTOY wave ne as unny days as he - could e= ho could ive me LS days, and ho did. A. oI an Asking how many.... B., FSDOToOV could yivo v5 days == as a chief of a directorate. Ae You are Bune of this’ oT B. No; I am not suro. A. ((Pauso)) What was: the’ uroatost penalty the: Cha daman. « of’ tho “RGB; .or the Minister could givo at that t4me?. Ph or ac mw Bove nnn <b oot sond you to court, A, Woll, without. taking you to court, B. Fire you, ~ : ; i : A. Well, that, too, is a _— B. Well, up to_ . A. ((Pauso)):- appone You got 15 days fron FEDOTOV 16:call you . B. No; he did not even speak with me. i ; SHUDNYAKOV spoke with me; SHUNNYAKOV settled this matter, A. - When did you say this happened: B. In 1954, § — i oF : 5 * A. When. a 5 SUM EMS pat
104-10227-10012 PB. In the sumnaer, A. In the sinnmer-of 1954, | Wag this at the time you were Sccrotary of the Konsomol orrantzation, © B, Yos, i . "na ; A. Vell, what measuros did tho MVD Konsomol Coanmittee take on this : matter: oo j They ‘removed mo as Socrotary, How did this happen: % . ~ when’ x was, s treed,” “th Goaceees | rave’ me va severo: reprimand: ; sees .. warning, with:.a_noto. An: “my Kondemol= file. : oe pe . ‘The itongomol” Comniittos did this, ae ae : . A. In which Komsomol Comni tteo: a bhtt & B. In the: HvD, we et cates £) wie ate ye ne i en ae. mor a6" not “remember. A. How was the quostion judced at the Konsonol mecting of the Second : Chief Directorate; B. -They did not discuss my renoval there , a 1” A, ((Pause)) How old were you at that tine B. I was in my twenty-seventh year.
104-10227-10012 oe 7h “Ss aA, Why did they not take away your Romsonol “identification at that tia, BR. They toot avny. my Identification (XG) Tell mo how And under widt- circunstances they too: your onsomol — {dont stent ton, | \ B.. I do not remonber; I turned it in... ah... to the “ongonol orpaniag zation or to tho “odsonol Counittec, “ Héw-was this done: |‘ 3 Yes, Just a ninute, ; ; They Lifted my puntahnent. in Oc tober; the Komsonol Comittee lifted othe: punishment, i ee. ota For. how. lonr do: ‘ney, penalize ‘a. man, particularly, for | @ ecvore. 3 Oo reprimand with, re i ee a , , You could know. -— ~ ; (x@y ‘80° “that Dae lott “tie Kousonol wl thout Punishaent. . What you are saying is utter rot. . of Iam telling you the truth, the way it was. Lies! Why should I ‘lie: Why lift a punishment waen the man is leaving ((the “onsa:o01)) for rood: x Ne already is not a iomsonol nenber. i i a PH WANR, Zt iea int Sy cna f, f stripe aiat A tn tas
104-10227-10012 B, A, B. A. A. neumrtinny saves aie maa B, A, i B. I.do not vemember; Ido not remember peel, Le ett A. Then, on order that tt not be in the records. C(XG: A and Ro gnenh et they carn tinc)) Why remove Lt. Hie is not on the rolls. (XG) They lifted {t; they Lifted it. That is not the way it happens. ((Pause)) Well, toll me how they actually removed you froa the Komsomol rolls, & n turdéd™ thay? dont t18eeiGa d that wis all. “| was out because of age. Well, how did you turn it: in: . To whom did you give it?’ ~ ((Pause)) I do ‘not want, to ake ‘this “Up: I do not, want ‘to hake up -~. ears: oe oat foe, Le eel br oe TSS. pee Es That is not the way it happens, It is not that simple to turn in a Komsomol identification, Then, in October 1954, you were out of the ? Konsomol. No, they lifted the punishment in October. That cannot be. I wrote a statement.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) I came *0 the -Konsono1” Comittee, turned it. in, and ‘that was all. : zs pecan AE ; a a a Sere eer ener ie eet! IT ea 7 ™~
104-10227-10012 . . - 53 - A. ... YOu received: 15 days, and 9 severe reprimand with, a warning, and they almost: put you vut of: the. Roweono , . and that ‘they whould lift the punisinedt in a few montha, Tnat is not tha way it ‘kappmng, B. They lifted the punishment because I was leaving the Komsomol. laws, They went half-way, because I was leaving, A. Now, listen, what are you saying: - B. Why should I talk nonsense? A, Even if a simple reprimand 4 given, it is not Littea until a ‘year ° schas_ passed. ‘RL It is lifted; well; they. lifted it. — AL Not one Committee Secretary will raise his hand to exten this, ‘ a ‘ _because he cannot do that. B. They met me- half-way. L ! They mét me half-way, because I was leaving the Komsomol. — eee Pe : ea 7 a F cs ae alt Pas Rees r Ss 1 Egon REDE, bane. 5 A, That has. nothing. to « do” with: it. Fe B. Way not: : _ oe . : é . &E It does. ' = | ES ' ‘ se A. - You know that to leave the Komsomol is a greater. punishment than to ES 3, rT be given a severe reprinand, v B. That as not a punishment -= that a man leaves the Konsonol ; that is re Fe no punishment. Ute A. That is a very great punishment -- because you renain out of both ay - ea Rel he the Hasty and the Komsonol. ee Nae acaran Sa
‘ 104-10227-10012 a 2 — ((Pause)) Wren did you turn: in your identification card 7 OB ‘Later; in Qtober, Novenber, Y turned the identification in. AY ((Pause)) For how long wore you without membership in the Komsomol: iL i B. In June 195 == at the end of June or perhaps, in the beginning of July == I was given candidate membership in the Party. A, At the end of June, or...... B. The beginning of July. _ . A, Where: a, : a : a a B. ‘The Party organization.... tho Party organization accepted == I. ; submitted a paper..., an Announcement was made, ah... Party organi- “weg 754 . . ation of the Seventh Department. of the Second Chiof “Directorate me wore - the Party, Coanittee ofthe Second: Chief -aécepted. | es Bo, sau aoe So == the Party orpanization or the Séveiith Departhent; the Party ~~ — ee Committee of the Second Chief Directorate -- the final decision on acceptance by the Party Committee of the Conmittee ((for State. : Security)). A. Who gave you the Party identification - the candidate's identification. B, YARTSEV, YARTSEV. “Yes, YARTSSY. Fe A. .In which rayon Party Committee did the KGB belong at that time: =f - Pee re Edt go tacaetpalien EY een TNE EE aa nee
104-10227-10012 ce Rh, The full Party meabershtp, tn Lo57, alsa wis reeeived in the Committco. 2 3 . , A, That ts possible. ((Pause)) Now, tell me how: you as a non-Party mesber could remain ~at work in the Sccond Chief Directorate doing operational worl. Who made such a decision go that you, betne neither Ln the Komsomol nor in the Party.... B, I do not know who. I left. the’ Komsomol becaugo of age. Ilo who has tine for preparation, that one later will come into the Party. A, Woll, who mado the decision to koop you on: the .job in. the organs? B. 1 donot know; I do not know. 3 rs ; : There is a "procedure -- a man “ yhio Leaves the’ “Party” or tho Kondoniol , yo _ or is excluded, or Leaves: ‘automatically ‘because of. ace or for somo! other rofson == A question is raised: about his cont inuance in the orang ‘of the KGB. Q-26) in oporational work: , t- l. B. Bit, I was, for a year and a half (1-2G)...— AL coin the ‘Second Directorate. A special decision’ must be made. 4 : B. "No. ono called me; no one spoke with me, A. Inmagine -~ a@ man who had just been taken into the organs of KGB, who (126), who misused service documents, who got a venereal disease, ‘who was arrested for 15 days, who left the KomsSonol because of age = ‘what basig is there to continue him. in his work’. Pane i B. But they thought, “Tt was his first infraction”, "The man will
104-10227-10012 straignaten up’, people make mistakes.” A. ‘Yho mace tho deecloeten: B, I cannot BAY WhO w= probably the chioefa of the Chief hirer torage; probably SHULQTYAKOY . A. But, anyway, you must know precisoly. B, Well, I tell you no one spoke to me on. this subjoct. | 4 -A., You do not know how (1G) actually epaxatesy what is done; how ‘many poople in: the Sccond Chief Directorate woro not Party niombers: i ' 4 1 | B. Thero wore Komsonol members. | A. Thore wore Konsomol mombors, 6f course. Put. thoro wore no non-Party mombors , . ALL of thom were ‘in’ the’ Party or in the. Konsonol ~ you wore the- only ono who | was: not. — hoo Mae “" B, Most probably, the chiefs of: the department spoke up for mo (2G). we A. Thero was no reason for thom to speak up for you. B. I ‘do not know why it was that way; I an telling you the way it is, A, Then why cannot you tell the truth about how it was; Where is tho doz buried: B. I am telling the truth, and no dog lies buried. A. That is not the way thinrs are donc. B, But I am telling you how things are. 2 al ee.
104-10227-10012 A, You have gafd quite a hat, ((Pause)) Welly in Aprah pit, atthouch they were not promoting anyone at that tinc, ‘they pave it to you. When were you supposed ta becone A captain, B. In 1956. A. Well, you did not get Lt B. But.I told you that they had recommonded mo for a captain, but when ‘the rocoamenda thon. camo to tho Commission. to eng Personnel “Departnent. :. yes, when personnel makes. the / decision, phcy take tt tothe Conmission for tho promotion. “LYALIN was on this commission. 0° 0. ay Al: Vory woll; he said that you have somo shortcomings.... a sg and that it is necessary to wait. Flom Be Yes, thoro wero. shortcomins; ae A, To wait... LYALIN as an oxccutive worker in the Sccond Chief. Directorate... B,. Ho was not in the Sccond Chicf Directorate; : (cha rman) ).. A. (Cin English)) O.K. ‘Ho. told you to walt; (Cin English) ) alricht; Anyway, a8 you say, you becane a Party candidate in 1956, B. Yes. A; The whole punishment alneady. chad heen forgotten. ae ‘R. That is the thin: --LYALIN at that time did not act properly. e wos not necessary to punish ne, because this is a punishnent. ;."* So, amar) ; he was already a Deputy:
104-10227-10012 , You -— “with ‘puch investigations, and. ‘gO forth? Also, thors wana ehiet otomy department at tind tire == PREETUUVIY a0 of the Soventh Departnent. | PENFIL CRY sald, "Abrisht, wo wlll catt: we wih write nd recomrendi.e thon arain in a year.” I told hin, “Nd kolay Aleksandrovich, how can it po so. I would lose a yoar", | He valid he would ivok into tt. Soon, jn 19°7, PENPFIL'YEY became Deputy Cater ot the Second Chief Directorate, supervising the Seventh bepartaent. ; And then, in 1957, there already were dincussions, “Alrignt; 5 wo will not recommend you now; but we will recommend you ~~ right away to be 2 nein .” Now why are you telling ne fairy tales: I am tellin: you the way it ‘happened. In 1959, they reconnendéd me to be a major, — - oe SE : A 16ttot of fpeonatdntlen was: written. i ae ‘Listen, even. GAGARIN. did not . juap a crank (2-26) 2 BY ae Why. would they skip you a “Fant? . ; 3 ; "te - 7 ae wo . Now, . why: aré you telling me fairy - tales? an oo. sy Just 2 minute; in'1956... even in 1955, I had no ponaltics (XG). , They could not have given it to you because you were a non-Party j nenber, “4 You are not promoted if you aro not in the Party or tho Komsomol. How will you promote a man wio ig not in the Party or in the Komsonol? — Well, they let ny pronotion ride, That was in 1956; you already were a candidate member of the Party. It was before that -=j 1 became a candidate in the Party only in the a ee a ea oT ere gy eee pe ee he trae a cee le R 4 F- £ z 3 z 5 3 F Fe z ns a4.
104-10227-10012 | ere Suave, A. You did net start processing in June, if you becanos na candidate in June or MiLy. You must have procensed carlier sonewhere; there hag to be a certain period of tine. i | Be iSitht, riphe, XY A. Reforo you speat:, think Lt over a little,’ first; B. (XG) A, Calculate the debits arainst the crodits ((1.c., lino up the dates and facts)); then explain, Bb. UF an not. twisting it around; “it ig probably that you vant to: confuse ne, me A, You have confused yourself without me; and you do not know how to. ~ disentangb yourself, B. Well, why are you doing it this way? A. You know that neither in the Army nor in the organs -— “Rovhere -- do they skip ranks in promotions, while they do rive carly promotions for outstanding service, B.- There are cases of jumpine two ranks; I will tive, you examples, A. I do not want any PREBPAES ij we are talking about you personally, with SPN gsr Bturgivane coe Ree such references as a person like you has, PS Se Ss B. Very well; it was in 1959 that they recommended mo to be major, Be a he In 1956 I received a mention (blagadarnost'’ ) from SEROV, And 1 was Q candidate menver in the CPsu. 4
104-10227-10012 A. Tuat aay be. ao And at tho end of 1956, or in the fall, I kecane a senior casa officer. A. Then way did. they not promote you in 1956 or in ‘L957, in 1958..., B. I will toll you why \- well, what I want to tell you you do not vant to hoar @<- hecause there was a discussion with PERFIL'YSV, PERFIL'YEV told GRIBANOV What, == “Very woll; when: the canis cones to , promoto hin from céptair ‘to major then: wo will ‘gend it. in. AL But you waid they made you captain in 1959, , , ; a , a eg Ee é Thoy mado mo a 1 captain in 1959, but they recommended me. to bo a major, Tho rocommendation was to bo a “major, a en tet wR ae Z Undorstand. me. A. .Woll, they made you a captain. -: B, They made ma a captain, but-they had A. How long do you. have to be a captain B. Throo years, A. Since when: B. Three years. } A. Since when. B. From major to lieutenant colonel it takes four years; fron lieutenant colonol to colonel it takes four years; olf, yes, fron captain to TE ete oe major == four years. It takes four years for a captain to become a naior, H Re me SE so agawens
104-10227-10012 A. Alrtionht; then, when were You supposed to heceue aA najor we. (f they made sou a captain tn L959. _B. In 1959, they recomaended ie. to be. a major, A. Well, they could not do that, B. IT am telling you the way Lt was. May do you...,, 0 ‘ A. We will forget about this. | B. In 1959, I was promoted to-captain; thus, frou 1953 until 1959,-1 ‘was a senior lieutenant. CO . 5 A. Well, how long docs’ it take for a senior. lieutenant to become.a- . captin: - . ne B. Three ‘years. ; : A. And captain to major; a ae re 2 _ B. Four years. z 7 - A, How many years is that in-alli ~ B. Seven years, A, Seven years; 53 plus seven: — how nany years is that? B. 60, A. Then, in no way could they have recommended you for major in 1959, B, Well, they reconnended me for najor -. well, perhaps he wanted it : earlier -= in 1959. : OFrnrs arte
104-10227-10012 Ae ean ey ay i Hear mo out! . BE ((XG; A and B speak at the same tine.)) ay But it 1s not done taat way, . ~~ Why ecarlter, Because there you were puntshed and you were friven 15 days’ arrest, But when did that happen. In 1954, "tee And you were not in the Party or the Konsonol: Well, why aro you so... the punishment was tn 1954, Well, {t doos not cone out that way in. any case. ‘If, from 1953 to 1960, it'is seven years in order to become a najor, and they. gavo you a pronotion a year carlicr --. for what serv icos: To skip you a grade, and then to promote you a year earlior! _ I did not skip (XG). It is, it ig ~- 1 am telling you the way it happens. ‘And GRIBANOV oven came to an agreedent with Personnel.:.. There was nothing for hin to come to an acreenent about, with them or anyone else, . ot . They are not responsible for signing orders, Porsonnel does not sign an order, I want to find out what all this is about. ((Pause)) Well, from 1936, I began to rrovw. I know all of that story -= about how you began to rrow. In 1959, I was reconmended to be a. major. SECT
104-10227-10012 ‘This is your only " “((Pause)), Fron Major had not Tey could not do that because the necessary tine in sracte elapsed, Iam tellin: you the way it was. How it ls e= that fs the way it This again, ta your reservation ~ was’, It could not have been that way, "but that 4s the way Lt happencd with me. " oxplanation™ . You have ‘iott ing nore. You cannot Give confirmation of any thing... Nevertheless, I was promoted to captain, Then you could not have bocn promoted to licutenant colonel without having, been a-major, . Be ae Fe And I was provoked to Houtendat: colonel without hav ing Leen a “major. Do. not explain to ne; ‘this docs: not happen,” dnd. it never ‘bappencd, a And, if Lt» -happened, then. _ under sorio Cspectat)) cireutstancos, “and for something ((spectat)).. ((Pause)) I am telling you the way it happened, ‘absolutely. Because, if you take from captain to major, how many years is that. to lieutenant colonel, how many years does it take’ Then, how many years is this in ally Eight. 39 plus cifht -—— how many years is that? EGET
104-10227-10012 NW. Thy do you count that way. A. YT = well... Io do net want to count in ane other wity . It is another thing -- vac yow do not waa to, BR, C(XG; A nnd B speak at the same tine.)) A, There is a deerce of tne Counc Ld of Ministers which tolls how ((n nan. is pronoted) ) e\- in war timo, if a man wre in combat for threo months; and he would be pronotod routinely. : " And, besides that, thore was nothing, I even can pive ag examples tho names -of people who were given a double promotion and promotions ahead of tine, “oA, I do not want ‘to hear: about soncone ((etse)).. _ We. ‘are taltcing: only about you,: 'B. %n,1959, I was a captain; in 1963, a licutcnant coloncl.. © = “ay If you ingiat on this, then it is stupid of you, B. Well... I... well... I... even though for.you I may bea private, I can soit on this, Iam telling it the way it is and was, absolutely. a . A. It does not. turn out that way. 7 bed I even doubt wiethor you wore a private,. because’ you do not. even "know What the situation of a private was when you received your | nilitary identification. ; ; ((Lony pause)) : You have not civen ne the name of one person who sicned the ordor: tho date of your promotion, etc. aN te sey at eee me, ° for. ‘your promotion in rank, in the NGB tries for : ews one tin So or arene , Every person serving in the arny or working LO re gets
104-10227-10012 am sometilnr: bf he works tacre tt is ats specialty, tig carecr, nna he, of course, Bech that ne receives hin promotions on time <= not , Lecmtue he wants sore NOney, but because everyone else 15 promoted, Rveryéne knovwe this, no matter wao ne is. Even SUVOROV said, “He is a7 peor soldier wio dows not think of bela na peneral”’, Fe, Of course, there are noaple “fio Go net want to serve in the Army, but onca At happens, there 16 noth ine to be done <= Lt. is. iis caroor. ie mugt... he cannot gtay a Lscutenant or n captain all the time, and wien he has reached the ace of 30, 40, ho should be at least a __-lleutenant colonel...- . (CxG; A and’ B speak at the sane tinc.)) “B,.. Well, now, rany fellows stay... “~R,” Everyone knows that it is very hard too from colonel to pencral. B. Well, now: they take. into consideration the officer’ 5 ‘duty positions If ho” As a case officer, ‘then. he ss. CG. o. , can Bed) a \ captain, and that is nll, . —_ i oe 7 You cannot be ighors they will not give ie nadue tae st poaition)). Se a “ - oe a i by For a ‘senior case ‘officer -~ Basori that is: the Linit, ‘He can sit there fOr eight, nine, or ton years; they will not ive him a higher . (Qrank unless ne gocs to a higher position)). A, Well, you yourectf say this... Rut how did they y. ive it to ou. B, fut, one ninute, one minute; ty position, I already could have ( (been pronoted)) long aro. A, Stop talking this nonsense about your positions’ You cannot ‘even explain the dutics of a case officer, not to spoak of that of a deputy chief of department.
104-10227-10012 . -In 1960, ‘voPrYGIN cane ta our departianewt, as. chick; ‘they. gave bin. a. Vint -~ do you think thoy will believe this - a i mut that ts the way it was, I tett-you,. Tas way Lt wags es thet is why they cannot belleve you, Once a man ((says he)) was, and -the second time «= he was not. But I tell you that I was not. . Recause they would not believe ‘ne nwo that 1... Alright =m. if they rave it to you, then for what services did they. cpive it. I told you that even GAGARIN: was not ‘promoted like that, Bey What aro you: NS greater hero ‘than a: cosmonaut of the Sovict. Union: If you became. ((a. hero))-, then. for_what’.. Well, I will give you an example. . rank -= “a primary rank =~ of senior Lieutenant, In 1961, he was made a major: -he WANs nover.a-captain, but became a an.jOF directly. In 1962, after a year, he becane a Licutenant colonel, because he- “wae ‘chiog. of a department. vue Because there was a reason -- they came in without rank. Well, they gave them rani: Annediately. Well, they were lauching -- when SHRLEPIN' cane in, the chief of the Secretariat << tnmediately after DOBROKHOTOV | -~ he at once became a colonel. (XG) A young fellow, and they immediately made him a colonel. Vell, why not. (2-36) Tell me why they gave it to you.
104-10227-10012 Trey pave ht tome, to. t had spent av long a captatn.,: -becana (2_2G) tn 1959 for Taat he fad been Operational documents --< there were Bens period infec But that was in 1954, If aman has made a slip, an -error.:.. Qasi Towns net of As madorl.. ted with jonorrioca, In 1954, you also left the Konmgomol._ I teft because of Age: I loft, Party. I prepared myaolty to. ebter the Party. because ‘of age. \ i ‘ ' i ' i 4 “3 ‘wo vik Sorel ‘in’ tire department; x rian: Aosenior Ro oaptein at othe “tine that he had nisused his great services..., You" did not ‘Works you did not piopave yourself to enter the 1 tool: an active part in the Party work of ‘the departnent ; Well, you will nover prove it to fe, no matter how hard you try. I am not proving.... Not only to me, but to anyone. Between us, if you were to tell this to  GRIBANOY, he would say, "Vot, nudak", if he is still alive. ((Pause)) I have the Regulations (Ustav) here; (XG) percent. (XG). Do you rementer what Party duces you paid. I prepared mysolf ~ L ‘Lhoutenant until v4
104-10227-10012 As Weld, three perveent; cmt else Q. Nothin: olse em. three pescent, Al @(ibree pescentey) of onat gery. tne Luding (pas?) far rank, for Lonzevity, tor By Fron evorything, lanncuae -= for the entire sun paid,” A. ‘Mon did. they ((re-) introduce the pay for rank. \ B. In 1955 thore was a creat problem, +0 Whon they’ ber san paying. for rani: again, For many of tho fellows, they began’ -to (een tho rank. That 1s, to align (prs ho ‘ina ‘Moutenarit, colonel; he becane a major, A. Nonsonao. ome Do'not talk nonsenso. ye OB What aro you tolling me?. we ‘ Many of our: follows suffered from these cuts ((in rank)), A. Who can make a demotion in rank or to remove a rant Who? +. . B. . Just a minute; that is what happened, — - 7 : What aro you telling nov In tho Seventh Department -= (2-3G) was a lieutenant colonel, he became a major; GUSEV was a licutenant colonel, he was nade a major; 2 SUXHANOV was a colonel, 4 . . Ihre, : , feats 3 bli: chat! ) == lot-us “say, Nn senior casa. officer; -
104-10227-10012 (ms . A, Do noktonahe thie up, Wink did they gtare civine: ‘ Caen other ranins Bp. (1G) ((End of Reel #11)) ray wey