157-10044-10093 08/06/95 JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM AGENCY INFORMATION AGENCY : SSCIA RECORD NUMBER : 157-10014-10093 RECORDS SERIES : HEARINGS AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 13-H-02 pers ome wom wows wovh ety anas anne cas nas enae <5) EXD SHED CHES CHEE CEED <E CEY CET CEE CEE ERY GEED (VED CoD cue www wenn (00H sam ats anes nny ents GED SAO ED GED GED ED nD ERP SUSE COED CEE came cmXh GERD “PWD Cuwe eww cows coww ewww noes an Sanu Lane aly wand, GEE ERE GEES GHEE GERD uu GEED (EEE SEND SEER CHEE CEE cen GW coup cove omy wot DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : SSCIA . FROM : BISSELL, RICHARD TO : TITLE : R-1097 DATE : 09/10/75 PAGES : 84 SUBJECTS : BISSELL, RICHARD LUMUMBA, PATRICE OPENING CRITERIA COMMENTS DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED RESTRICTIONS : 1A, 1B CURRENT STATUS : RELEASED WITH DELETION DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/25/98 [R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED HY 50955 Docld: 32473461 Page 1
Stas an CRT ieee ‘ A SHCURE Gunueits IPA OL Chad Cee feo Criminal isanct £ Report of Proceedings DN py. ae? Hearing held before , ren az wae hry s. Senate Selact Committee to Study Governmental Operations With respect to Intelligence Activities Wednesday, September 10, 19375 Washington, D.C. (Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over to the Committee for destruction) Rin +2E sf os 7 Ree WARD & PAUL 410 FIRST STREET, 8. E. WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003 ae oss (202) 544-6000 OP SECRET
YS cet at Nee h ay « Prone {Ares 202) 584 WARD & FAUL ALO Fasat Street, SE. Washington, D.C. 20003 - TESTIMONY OF Richard N. Bissell EXHIBITS NUMBER Bissell Exhibit Bissell Exhibit Bissell Exhibit Bissell Exhibit Bissell Exhibit Bissell Exhibit Bissell Exhibit Bissell Exhibit (Exhibits were retained by counsel.) TOP SECRET
‘4 Paget SaeREER ot BATS Re cre iS ‘i int . cd Bi AES a gh S ANG No ie  gsheibu Wednesday, September 10, 1975 Prone Arta 202} $48-4: United States Senate, Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, Washington, DBD. C. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m., in Room .608, Capitol Hill Hotel, Senator Gary W. Hart presiding. Present: Senator Hart of Colorado (presiding). Also present: Frederick A. 0. Schwarz, dr., Chief 2 2 a a a o & < 3 Counsel; Curtis R. Smothers, Minority Counsel; Frederick Baron, Rick Inderfurth, Paul Wides, Rhett Dawson and Joseph DiGenova, Professional Staff Members. 7OOD3 310 Foret Street, $.£., Wasningian, O.c. TOP SECRET
Prone [Area 202) 544-6000 a ‘2 « 2 ; & Q e < z 9003 210 Fors Gtevet. SEL, Wasmagton, OF Ry foe Kea 43 eek SAO RAH a fitha i BAG i Senator Hart of Colorado. Me. Bissell, will you stand and be sworn. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, 80 help you God? Mr Bissell. I do. Senator Hart of Colorado. The same circumstances apply as applied under your previous experiences before: the Committee. You have the right under our rules to have @ member of the Committee present at all times if you choose. And you have also your Constitutional right to counsel if you go choose. you do understand? Mr. Bissell. I understand. Senator Hart of Colorado. we will be under way now. Mr. Baron, You are appearing here voluntarily today without counsel? Mr. Bissell. ZI am.
oe oS) nT arenit Bih Mop scent TESTIMONY OF RICHARD N. BISSELL Mr. Baron. Mr, Bissell, since we have talked with you last about the subject of the Congo we have taken testimony from a number of witnesses. The first that we would like ¢ turn to is Bronson tweedy, who in 1960 and 1961, as I am sure you will recall, was the Chief of the African Division. He indicated to us in his testimony that he had a number of talks with you, probably in the summer or fall of 1960, where the prospect of assassinating Lumumba wae raised. What can you tell us about those discussions? Mr. Bissell. tam afraid I can't tell you anything. I don't remember the specific discussions with him. It seems: to me, however, entirely to be ‘expected that such conversa~ 4 3 < J a a a < z tions took place. I think I testified previously, but in any case, I remember assigning Justin O'Donnell to study . the possibilities and to make plans for the assassination or elimination of Lumumba - And since that was in the Africa area, I think he most unlikely that I would have done that without saying something to the Division Chief about it. Mr, Baron. Mr. tweedy's testimony was to the effect that he was in fact not being informed of some on-going operation or some instruction that was contemplated, but ., Waste rather that you and he were discussing the feasibility of assassinating Lumumba. pid such discussions take place? APO basag Steeet, se
Mr. Bissell. I don't happen to remember them, but it seems to me entirely probable that they did. And if he said so I would certainly accept that. Pnané (Atsse 202} 444-6000 Mr. Baron. And would you asgume that if such dis- cussions took place they would have taken place in the summer er fall of 1960? Mr. Bissell. Yes. Mr. Baron. Would such discuasiona have involved planni for an actual assassination mission? SEATS: ee elas Mr. Bissell. Yes, planning for, but not necessarily Siw any authorization to take specific steps to implement such & plan. Mr. Baron. Would planning discussions in the sense WARD & PAUL that you are using the term included sending instruments of assassination to the Congo? Mr. Bissell. They might have, although again I don't happen to remember that. I am aware, I think, that there is a record that something was said, but I had no recollection that things went that far. But that still could 20063 have been included in what I mean by the term “planning and preparing”. Mr. Baron. Bid you give Mr. Tweedy any specific instruction as to steps he was ‘to take to further a plan to assassinate Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. I may have. I don't remember them. TOP SECRET c 3 £ £ ra 5 & w a a Fd “ co) ”
only clear recollection I have is of what I think was the initial discussion on this matter that I had with Justin o'Dennell. And I believe that he and I had that alone, in other words, that Mr. Tweedy was not present in the dis- pee gS cussion I had with o'Donnell. Mr. Baron. We will turn later to filling out the details of your conversation with Justin o'Donnell. For the moment, aticking with Mr. tweedy's testimony, he also testified that during this same period of time he ville inquiring at to ££ the Chief of Station could gain acces | composed cables that went to the Chief of Station in Leopold- | § to Lumumba for the purpose of assassinating him. pid you send guch cable? Mr. Bissell. r would think the record would show WARD & FAUL whather they were sent. If they were wsent the record would presumably aiso show if I signed them. Ana 1 expect that if they were sent I would have signed them. But I don't happen at this distance in time to remember the specific cables. Mr. Wides. If you had sent cables of that kind, Mr. Bissell, would they have gone in the normal channels out from the African Division, oF might they more likely have gone on & restricted basis from yourself to the Station Chief without ~~ -Mr. Bissell. I think it is very probable that it would 410 Fost Steet, SA. wWashengtag, F.C. 20003 TOP SECRET
Prone (Area 202) 544-6000 4 3 « rs 4 5 x € 5 1. Warrongien, OC. zarelee 2yO Foeat steeet, 9.6 ae have been the latter, although given the fact of conversations with the Division Chief, presumably he would have been on the distribution for these cables. But probably it would have baan restricted to the Director or the Deputy Director or the Division Chief, and probably Mr.Helma'Deputy. Mr. Baron. It was Mr. Tweedy's testimony that although , he composed such cables, they went out, a8 far as he could recall, under your signature or from your office. Mr. Bissell. That would be a very normal procedure. Mr. Baron. Do you recall discussing with Mr. Tweedy the fact that he should write such cables, whether or not you recall the specific cables? Mr. Bissell. Y really don't. Mr. Baron. Mr. Tweedy also testified that the cable traffic that he was sending ‘to the Congo was part of a back and forth communication in which he was receiving information from| the Chief of Station in Leopoldville about the kind of access that he could gain to Lumumba. Did you read such cables from the Chief of Station in Leopoldville? Mr. Bissell. I am sure I did. I don’t remember specifically. ° Mr. Wides. Bo you recall the question of access being one part of the exploration that you were doing? Mr. Bissell. Yes, that indeed would have been a key
asta “e S10 Fest Stetet, $.6., Wasrenginn, 0.0, 29005 Prone [Area 202} 544-4000 2 > < a a bs «< x part of it. Mr. Wides. Do you recall that being so? Mr. Bissell. I don't specifically recall it. But since I am clear that at least in the case of O'Donnell, and I now presume in the case of Mr. Tweedy, I authorized and indeed directed this planning and preparatory activity. A major part of this would have been a search for ways in which access could be gained. Mr. Baron. And what kind of access were you looking for at that time? Mr. Bissell. Obviously I would say the access of an individual who for one reason or another could get close to Lumumba. Mr. Baron. In the summer and very early fall of 1960 this would have been access to Lumumba for the purpose of ( i i assassinating him rather than snatching him from U.N. custody? | Mr. Bissell, Well, it could have been for the pur- pose really of eliminating him from his thernpolitical acti- vities. And that could have been assassination, or it could have involved some form of incapacitation, or it could possibly have been, in your words, snatching him so that he could be put into the custody of what we regarded as friendly authorities. Mr. Baron. Would you have sought information from the Chief of Station on whether he could gain access to TOP SECRET Me pa aie RT Ay Sivictt poaepiertaae ty
He au a i: ot at e a, Br <2, S58 eA SUN AR ARR ECRET Lumumba for the purpose of poisoning Lumumba. Mr. Bissell. It could very well have. That was one method of @¢limination, and that was obviously thought about Parone tavea 207} 544-6000 at the time as part of the planning, and almost certainly we would have been in touch with the Chief of Station to see if he could gain access for that purpose. Mr. Baron. Were you also in touch with the Chief of Station to seek access for the shooting Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. I would quess that really the questions ae to the Chief of Station would have had to do with gaining access for whatever method -- an access that could be used for ~ he whatever method of eliminating Lumumba might be‘ simple, b~ Ms practical and workable. And I doubt if the question would have been a different one, depending on the device or weapon 4 3 % a a o & « 3 to be used. Mr. Baron. To retrace something you said a moment ago, if Mr. Tweedy had authored cables seeking information from the Chief of Station in Leopoldville about gaining access to Lumumba, you would have approved such cables? 000} Mr. Bissell. Yes, I would most certainly have. nc. Excuse me. Let me elaborate on that. Given the procedures and relationships in effect,. think Mr. Tweedy, on the basis of an oral authorization from Washingt ta. A ae me, would have had the authority to send such a cable without my signing off on it. But in a matter of this gensitivity AIG Fast Steeet TOP SECRET
prone (Ares 207), $44-6000 a 2 « a a a a “ 2 210 Fast Stree, $6, Wasninaton, 0.€- 20003 I think zit highly likely that he would have drafted the cable, initialed it and sent it to my office for dispatch. Mr. Baron. And you wouldn't dispute his teatimony that he did 80? Mr. Bissell. Oh, no. His testimony seemed to me to be absolutely consistent with my recollections, which, alas, are somewhat tntorm, lit’ Mr. Baron. Would your discussions with Mr. Tweedy have involved discussing the possibility of poisoning Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. I suppose 806. Mr, Baron. we have also taken teatimony from the man: who was Chief of Station in Leopoldville during this period of. time, from mid-summer of 1966 throughout 1961, and he testified-- Mr. Bissell. Would you remind me who it was? | Mr. Baron. Off the record for a moment. (Discussion off the record.} Senator Hart of Colorado. Back on the record. Mr. Baron. While we were off the record we explained the arrangement under which the Chief of Station would testify before the Committee under alias. And we will refer to him here today as.the Chief of Station, or by his alias, which is that of Victor Hedgman. , Mr. Bissell, when the Chief of Station testified before ug he indicated that at some point in the late summer or early fall of 1960 probably toward the latter part of August TOP SECRET
eos rags a eis or the very first days in September, he received a cable from CIA headquarters to the effect that a messenger will come to the Congo who you will recognize, and who will bring in- Prone (Arts 202} 544-6000 atructions which you are to carry out. Did you send guch a cable to the Chief of Station? Mr, Bissell. I could have. But I have perhaps 4 peculiar reason for questioning whether in this particular case I did. And my reason is the following. You will notice that the cable you have just shown me that was sent out by the Director of Central Intelligence in Late August, the cable was released by his initials. And it bears the notification that the only other distribution was to be to Mr. Helms, who was then, you will remember, 2 2 4“ 4 4 i?) z « 3 Deputy ~- MY deputy. Now, it is virtually inconceivable to me, given my knowledge of and involvement in this operation, that the Director would have sent a cable, denied circulation to me and had it circulated to Mr. Helms, if I had been in oo0oG3 Washington. And I suspect that we could establish on the record that I was on vacation when the message you have shown me was sent. .. Washington, 2.0. Mr. Wides. That was in early August? a Mr. Baron. pet's introduce 45 Exhibit Ne. 1 for this session the document that you are referring to, which SLD Fest Stree, TOP SECRET
peed NAS a Fe prea ay Ei! EME a B: Ney vA is a cable dated August 26, 1960, from Allen W. Dulles to Leopoldville. And this cable includes the paragraph: *In high quarters here it is the clear-cut conclusion Prone (Aras 2027) 544-6000 that if LLL continues to hold high office inevitable result will at best be chaos and at worst pave the way for Communist takeover of the Congo with disastrous consequences for the prestige of the U.N. and for the interest of the free world generally. Consequently, we conclude..that his removal must be an urgent and prime objective, and that under existing conditions this should be a high priority of our covert action peters Trea h tS 3 Sie (The document referred to was macked Bissell Exhibit No. 1 for identification.) a > < EN 4 a a « x 2003 S.£., Wasnengton, 0.4. 210 Ferut Street, SON pagina anare ig, a pee AES eee 4 oe Rene
Mr. Baron. Mr. Bissell, would LLL refer to Lumumba in this cable? Mr. Bissell. I believe so. Mr. Baron. And isn't it unusual that this cable Prone [Area 202} 544-6000 re bears the designation Allen W. Dulles as opposed to Director? eee Mr. Bissell. That ia unusual. sige Mr. Baron. What does that signify? Mr, Bissell. I believe this cable was drafted by the Director himself. That would be my inference from the format. | Mr. Baron. And does this appear to be Mr. Dulles’ initials which are blurred in the copy we have? Mr. Bissell. They may be there, but in any event, the releasing signiature is definitely his. If I may complete the answer to your question, for the WARD & PAUL reason I have given you, my surmise is that I was not in Washington, and probably on vacation, when this was sent. I suspect that I might be able to dig out calendars and establish that if it became very germane. If that is the case, it is quite possible that the cable you asked me about stating that a messenger would soon arrive in Leopoldville was sent also in my absence. Mr. Baron. If such a cable was sent in your absence would you be apprised of it upon your return to headquarters? Mr. Bissell. I suspect 86, Yes. In this case I would no be almost certain that I would. 310 Foest Street, 3.8 ., Wasmengierer, EC, 20005 tw in
Baron. And what would such & cable have referred Mr. Bissell. Well, I suppose just what that said. Explicitly it refers, as you quoted, or characterized it, to Prone (Area 202} $44-4000 & messenger with instructions to be followed. Mr. Baron. And who was that messenger to be? Mr, Bissell. I have no idea without digging back into th traffic, Mr. Baron. And were those instructions ralated to the assassination of Lumumba? na a nan nS © Mr. Bissell. It certainly sounda as if they were related to his elimination in one way or another. Mr. Wides. Why is that, Mr. Bissell? Mr. Bissell, Just because the method of transmission Pi > 4 a 4 in} a « x is peculiar, and suggestshigh sensitivity. But it seems to me, on the basis of what you hve told me of the message, it can be only inference. Mr. Baron. And one means of eliminating Lumumba con- templated at CIA headquarters at this time would have been 000} an assassination? Mr. Bissell. Yes. Mr. Baron. In the testimony of the Chief of Station S.E., Wasyhinginn, 19.¢. who wag in Leopoldville at that time, he made the representa- tion -- let me back track for a moment. Vine eee Lr ee Be bid you ever discuss with Sidnéy Gottlieb the assassination 420 Furst Steeet, TOP SECRET
ad ro Lod €. oc. © Co c. cq nn RB Prone tAree 202} 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 20003 4 Wastergton, D.C. AIG Foeat Street, SE of Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. I think it is very probable that I did. Mr. Baron. What would these discussions. have involved? ee Mr. Wides. Excuse me. Was Mr. Gottileb at that time science advisor to yourself? Mr. Bissell. I believe he was. I would answer that question definitely if the record shows that he had not yet taken that position. But I am almost sure -~- I had better not say that. Assuming that he had assumed the position of science advisor, I think that my answer would stand, that 1 very probably would have consulted with him. Mr. Wides., For the record, while he was science advisor to the DDP, was he also an official of the TSD component, or was that a separate -~ Mr. Bissell. No, he was not. His assignment to my office was his full time and sole responsibility. Mr. Baron. And you say that you probably did dis- cuss with Sidney Gottlieb the assassination of Lumumba. What would have been the substance of those discussions? Mr. Bissell. It would have been discussing with him possible weapons or other means to use. When he was my seience advisor, I frequently used him as in effect liaison with the Technical Services Division, the person who had been a member of it. And he knew the personnel and he Knew a great deal about their programs. I presume that if f had TOP SECRET
Prane {Area 202) 544-6000 a 2 < a £ a & < z OGO} Af Steeet, 5.0., Washengran, O.€ 430 Fury AIPAEORRICNNAE bas acy AEN aan an Ch EAS ve Aig aR ’’ TOP SECRET had such discussions with him I would have been aaking him to give thought to ways and means. Mr. Baron, And you were asking Mr. Gottlieb, then, to think about the technical means by which an assassination could be carried out? Mr. Bissell. Correct. Mr. Wides. That is an assumption that you were, or can you recall now? Mc. Bissell. No, it is an assumption -- it ia an in- ference, if you like, from the circumstances. z think it is guite likely that I would have had such discussions with him ‘assuming, as X% believe to be true, that he-was the science advisor at that time. Mr. Wides. But you have no recollection? Mr. Bissell. No. Senator Hart of Colorado: Excuse me, Mr. Baron. I am going to have to go to vote, and I would just like the record to reflect your acquiescence that there is no committee member here if in fact that is the case. Mr. Bissell. I do so acquiesce, and I am happy to continue. Senator Hart of Colorado. With that understanding you are willing to continue? Mr. Bissell. Yes. Senator Hart of Colorado. Thank you very much. TOP SECRET
Prone {Ares 202) $44-6000 4 2 < a 6 c & 4 z 693% S10 fast Street, 5.£., Masmegron, 1.€. Mr. Baron. Did you have any other kinds of discussion with Sidney Gottiieb about the assassination of Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. None that I remember. Mr. Baron. Did you discuss with Mr. Gottlieb your conversations with Justin O'Donnell? Mr. Bissell. I just have no recollection of that. Mr. Baron. Did Mr. Gottlieb come to you and report to you on his conversations with Justin O'Donnell about the assassination of Lumumba? Mr. pissell. Again, I am sorry, I just have no recollection one way or the other. Mr. Baron. Did Mr. Gottlieb make you aware that he had in his shop, or he knew how to obtain the means to assassin- ate Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. Well, I certainly was aware in a general way that various means were available in the Technical Services Division. I don't know whether I obtained that information specifically from. Mr. Gottlieb, but probably I did obtain some of it through him. Mr. Baron. But however you obtained this information, you were aware that the means were available to assassinate Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. I think you put it too specifically. I was aware that as part of it is on-going activity. The technical Services Division did a lot of work in the develop-
Pnone (Area 262) 544-6006 s 2 « a « a & < z 7600) Wasrangies, %.C. 410 Fest Street, $E.. Fs : Pal Bi “ x : NE. . Ure My BAAD PNA TR TS Pay: ee RR OTE BR REY ie oity eng: nS EER ORI SE CE mutate ! TOP SECRET ment of various weapons of a sort appropriate for a clandes- tine service. And I was aware, I am quite certain, that these included poisons, type of firearms, and a whole range of capabilities. But my belief today, and my recollection, is that I-was aware of these as the products, I repeat, of an on-going development program which itself was not targetted | at any type individual or operation. Mr. Baron. And with whom did you have discussions of technical means that might be used to assassinate Lumumba other than Sidney Gottlieb? Mr. Bissell. I do not know. I could have had with Mr. Roosevelt, whom I think was still the head of the Techni- cal Division. _ I don't believe it would have been any but those two. Mr. Baron. This would be Cornelius Roosevelt? Mr. Bissell. That is correct. Mr. Baron. | Did Mr. Gottlieb express to you his reluctance te participate in an assassination plan? Mr. Bissell. I don't ever remember his so doing. Mr. Baron. Did Mx. Gottlieb appear to be willing to see what he could do to obtain or develop the means to be used in such a plan? Mr. Bissell. I really don't have any recollection that would enable me to answer that. I do believe that -- if he had demurred strongly, and urged its abandonment, or TOP SECRET
Prace (Ares 202) $44-6000 WARK & FAL Q First Street, $.E., Washington, n.c. 70001 3 ae a AK opposed it, I think it is likely that I would have remembered that position on his part, because I do remember very clearly Justin O'Donnell's reaction. And since I don't remember any such negative reaction from Mr. Gottiieb, my inference is that there probably was none. Mr. Baron. The Chief of Station in Leopoldville at that time further testified to us that in very early September he received a visit from Sidney Gottlieb in the congo. . Did you sent Mr. ,Gottiieb to the Congo at that time? Mr. Bissell. Probably, if he went there, I certainly would have been fully knowledgeable of it. Mr. Baron. And you would have approved his visit? Mr. Bissell. Yes. : Mr. Wides. Particularly 4£ this occurred when he was your science advisor. Mr. Bissell. Right. . Mr. Wides. ts it correct that he would only have gone there pursuant to your direction? Mr. Bissell. Correct. Mr. Baron. What were Mr. ,Gottlieb'’s instructions, er what was his mission at that time? Mr. Bissell. I do not know.I can draw inferences from the circumstances that have already been mentioned. Mr. Wides. In the course of his duties as your science
Smone {Aras 202) $44-4000 a 2 a a a o e 4 z 20003 4 Wasrinatan, O.C, ALG Farst Steeet, $.£ a tagh ak a4 Pee rae t PS s: c (ay: f 9 sea a Ae Gy PMA a8 advisor, did ha take fraquent trips abroad? Mr. Bissell. I would say infrequent. It seemed to me there were one or two others. ; Mr. Wides. | Would these trips be involved with highly sensitive operations as distinct from scientific evaluation? Mr. Bissell. I believe that for the most part they would not have been involved with highly sensitive specific operations, but rather would have involved consultation with people in the field on the effectiveness of devices, tech- niques, procedures, underdevelopment in the Technical Services Division. Mr. Wides. And given the unusual of his going to the Congo if he did in connection with clandestine operations there, you would have no recollection of that today? Mr. Bissell. I don't have any recollection of that today, no. This is the first time I realized, since many years ago, that he had made such a trip. Mr. Baron. Would he also have been aware that he had made such a trip? Mr. Bissell. Well, the Chief of Station obviously, Bronson Tweedy, obviously. Quite probably the Director, but not certainly. And several others.: I assume that Mr. Helms would have known about it at the time, because there would have been some kind of cable traffic, and I strongly TOP SECRET
suspect that Cornelius Roosevelt would have known about it. Mr. Baron. Did Mr. Gottlieb’s trip have anything to do Prone (Ares 202) 344-6000 with the assassination of Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. I don't know, since I don't remember the circumstances, I really can't say. Mr. Baron. Would you assume that Mr. Gottiieb's trip have had something to do with the assassination of Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. I think it might very well. Mr. Baron. And again we are talking about the plot to assassinate Lumumba rather than Lumumba‘'s ultimate demise? | Mr. Bissell. correct. Mr. Baron.If Mr. Gottlieb's visit related to the plot to assassinate Lumumba, would such a sensitive operation s 3 4 a 6 fs] & .¢ x ) have been made known to Bronson Tweedy? Mr. Bigsell. I believe so, specially in the light of the fact that apparently this possibility had been dis- cussed with Bronson Tweedy more than once. Mr, Baron. Is it possible that Bronson Tweedy would 20003 have been cut out of the actual mounting of an assassination operation despite the fact that the feasibility of an assassination had been discussed with him? 4.6... Wasnington, Tc. Mr, Bissell. Yes, it is possible. Mr. Baron. Was that the case? Mr. Bissell. I don’t remember. But Lf you ask me to AIG Ferst Street, TOP SECRET
Prone (A184 202) 544-6000 + > 4 & a is) & < z .. Wasringtas, 0.6, oneod 410 First Street, 9.€ guess, I think f would e= I think my guessing would come down slightly on the side of his having been cut out rather than knowledgeable. Mr. Baron. Why would that be? Mr. Bissell. Well, I repeat, I am guessing about this, and the reasoning that Leads me to make that remark de that my recollection is that my assignment to O'ponnell was very narrowly held. And I do not remember discussing that assign- ment with Bronson Tweedy. And so t think there is a real possibility ~~ and it igs a guess, trying as best I can to rec struet what was going on at the time, but not based on any recollection of actual: discussions ~~ but my guess, as I say, would come down very slightly on the side that O'Donnell’s assignment was not knewn to Bronston Tweedy, and that he, there- fore, was cut out of this phase. Mr. Baron. And would have been cut out of knowledge of Gottlieb's visit to the Congo? Mr. Bissell. Could have been, although that is more unlikely. It seema to me that if he was being cut out of knowledge of the ‘specific operation, that he would have had to be knowledgeable of the visit, and would have been given an explanation of the visit other than the postulated true explanation. Mr. Baron. In the light of that, Mr.Bissell, is it likely that the cable traffic that Mr. Tweedy describes going
PT Lal ¢ ty, of : Prone {Area 707) 544-6000 ‘3 3 < _ 6 fs) x « £ L093 . Washungian, O.C. ALD Fant Street, SE. ees : 3 ahs r eek rt o Te AE kee an abeaees ASS RIES back and forth between himself and the Chief of Station in the Congo concerning gaining acceaa to Lumumba could have unbeknownst’ to him related to gaining access to Lumumba for the purpose of an assassination plot that was further along the line than Mr. Tweedy knew? Mr. Bissell. It could have. I would put it another way. It seems to me that the information gleaned in that interchange was probably an input to the planning -- the prep- atory activity that identify with O'Donnell. Mr. Baron. To repeat for a moment, Gottlieb’s ‘visit to the Congo would have been known to the Chief of Sta- tion, yourself and Director of Central Intelligence, and possibly Bronson Tweedy? Mr. Bissell. I think probably Bronson Tweedy, and almost certainly a few other people. I repeat, I think Cornelius Roosevelt would have known of it. I think Richard Helms would have knwon of it, and I think several others. I am making a distinction between those who would have known of the viait, an event that would not be easy to keep secret from a number of people in the Agency, and knowledge of the true purpose of that visit, if indeed its true purpose were, as was suggested. Mr. Baron. Did you have any discussion with Richard Helms about the assassination of Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. I don't remember ~~ wait a minute. No,
FETS HY ‘ rf Pott Prone {Ares 202} 504-4000 a 3 « & a a © < x Prelelony 5.6, Warmngtan, O.€, 310 Forest Street, I believe Indid not with Mr. Helms. Mr. Baron. You paused for a moment there. Was there some discussion that you were thinking about that could have related to Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. Yes. t think what came into my mind was a later and gubsequent conversation with Mr. Helms sometime after. And this had to do with O'Donnell, and I seem to remember Mr. Helms making a remark that he was a somewhat ~~ on occasion a somewhat unsable person. And at that point the sub-« ject may have come up with Mr. Helms. But my impression is that any such conversation with Mr. Helms was a good deal later. 1 ' Mr. Wides. Mr. O'Donnell indicated that after he spoke to you and told you that he would not participate in the assassination effort, that he went essentially nextdoor to your office, to Mr. Helms' office, and recounted his dis- cussion with you to Mr. Helms. Do you recall any discussion about that time that Helms might have come back to you to find out about? Mr. Bissell. Let me explain, the dim recollection that I have just voiced of a conversation with Helms after the termination of O'Donnell’s assignment, and Helms comment on it. But I still believe that Mr.Helms did not know of this until after what I would refer to as the termination of TOP SECRET
Prange (Ares 2027) 544-4000 4 2 < & € a 4 « z Viashanqian, 0.0. 20603 5.E.. FEO Forst Street, KY o O'Donnell's involvement, which was. the occasion you have just referred tc. Mr. Wides. it was not described by Mr. O'Donnell as the termination of an assignment. Mr. Bissell. All right, that is my phrase, but as I have already testified, my ‘recollection -- and it is recollec- | tion -~- is that Mr. 0'Donnell came in to me -- I thought it was a matter probably of at least several weeks, but I could be wrong on the timing -- after I had originally given him the assignment, and expressed both his personal reluctance to attempt to carry it out, and his belief that it was the wrong way to proceed. Whether he so stated to Mr. O'Donnell, it certainly was my decision at that time that it be dropped. And to the best of my knowledge and belief, no further action was taken. Mr. Schwarz. By “it” in that example do you mean the assassination cf Lumumba, or O'Dennell's involvement in the assassination of Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. At any rate, O'Donnell'’s involvement, the project that he had been asked to plan and prepare for, that that would not be continued. Mr. Baron. And that was the assassination of Lumumba? Mr. Bissell. Yes. ; Mr. Schwarz. You mean one officer comes in and gives you a negative; and then you decided to turn off something TOP SECRET Perit tant goer te
Prone (Ares 202) 944-6000 J > «< a a oO & « 3 StO Fast Street. $.6., Wasmingion, D.C. P?ooo) — a Ie hoy A that you had been looking into for weeks because one officer says he wouldn't do it? Mr. Bissell. To turn it off, or at least if it be continued, to change not only the people connected with it, but probably the whole modus operandi. And the reason for that decision, insofar as I can recollect fe, ia, my grave concern that, given O'Donneli’s reaction, there was a risk that the Planning of such an operation would be blown. Mr. Schwarz. You mean if it was done he would expose the conversation? Mr. Bissell. Something of that kind could happen, Mr. Dawson. Who were you worried about O'Donnell in that case exposing it to? Certainly not the press. Mr. Bissell. J can't recally answer that, except by surmise, but I do remember that this had been in my mind a very sensitive assignment to him, limited -- with the knowledge of it to be limited very narrowly even within the Agency. And it is difficult to separate recollection from inference on occasion. But I seem to recollect that after this conversation with him TI wanted this put very much on the back burner and inactivated for quite some time. Now, that doesn't rule out the possibility that some action through completely different channels might have gone forward. But the best of my recollection is, I viewed this TOP SECRET i t ! i
Prone {Area 207} 544-6000 ) Se] « a e & x « z Le Marte ngt na. O.c. 7HNGs 21 Maest Steeet, 40 not only as terminating the assignment for him, but 4180 ag reason for at least postponing anything further along that line. Mr. Schwarz. Who had knowledge within the Agency of your assignment to O'Donnell and ita.true-purpose. Mr. Bissell. XI would guesa that ~~ Mr. Schwarz. Not guess, who did? Mr. Bissell. I don't know. What I was going to say is that I think the Director aid. Mr, Schwarz. Guess, think, don't know. You have got ¢ have a basis, Mr. Bissell, for testifying to something. Mr. Bissell. All right. The bagis is, 43 has been in so much of my testimony, how business was conducted within the Agency at that time. There had been, &B the Exhibit 1 cable suggests, there had already been consideration at high levels in the Agency and elsewhere of the elimination of Lumumba. Obviously I had been involved in conversations with the Director on that sub- ject. Given the way business was conducted, I would infer that I would have told the Director of my assignment to o'Donnell. . Mr. diGenova. Mr. Bissell, you are telling us that you don't remember this, is that correct? Mr. Bissell. That is right. Mr. diGenova. You have seen this Exhibit No. 1 which TOP SECRET
Prong (Aree 202) 344-6000 3 > “ a 4 a z < x 003 410 Gora Street, $.£., Waresqion, 0. SERS EE ETE SREB ality d “rn high quarters here it is the clearcut conclusion that if LLL continues to hold high office inevitable result will be chaos”. And then it goes on and says: "Consequently we conclude that his removal must be an urgent prime objective and that under existing conditions this could be a high priority covert action”. That is dated August 26, 1960, aigned, according to your identification of his signature, by Mr. Dulles personally. And it follows by one day a meeting in the White House of the Special Group attended by the President of the U.S., where Dulles said he would proceed -- Mr. Baron. I don't think this meeting was attended by the President. Mr. diGenova. Excuse me, attended by Mr. Dulles -- where he said he would proceed as vigorously as the situation permitted. And it was agreed that the planning for the Congo would not necessarily rule out consideration of any particular kind of activity which might contribute to getting rid of Lumumba. Does that in any way refresh your recollection about what was happening at that time? Do you remember anything independently of what Mr. Dulles was talking to you about? We had trouble areas’ in the. world, including Cuba, and the African Continent in particular: TOP SECRET
Prone (Aree 202) $44-6000 = 3 < a @ ie} & < % BONS ne. <M aneaeregteand, 310 Fast hteret. Sh te in — “Does that refresh your recollection ‘in any way independently? Mr. pissell. Well, my recollection, I think, ia pretty clear about the atmosphere at the time. And I think it ia quite Jeloquently described in the cable which you have just quoted. And I have already said that I think probably, from the evidence of the format of that document, I was absent from Washington at the time when it wags gent. But I certainly would have seen that when f returned, and 4t certainly would have been the ‘subject of conversation between Dulles and myself. it is for that reason that I draw the inference that Justin o'Donnell's assignment would have been reported by me to Allen Dulles. Mr. adiGenova. But you personally don't remember discussing this with Mr. Dulles? Mr. Bissell. No. . Mr. diGenova. You conclude now that you must have be- of the physical evidence? mr. Bissell. Could I just interrupt for a moment to say, I used to see Mr. Dulles almost daily during these years. It was rare that we would meet without touching on perhaps sever] on-going operations of plans or prospects. And this, over a period of several years. tt is not, I think surpris- ing that rarely have I been able in the course of my testi- mony to Say, I specifically remember 4 particular meeting, and
7 a ee TOP: even roughly what was said of it. | Mr. diGenova. Mr. Bissell, that is somewhat important obviously, because the idea is to try, if possible, to estab- lish what the precise facts were. Prone (Area 202) 544-4000 Now, I am sure you don't maan to say that the assassina-| tion of & foreign leader blurs into the everyday activity of the Agency because it was so commonplace -- or is that what you mean to say? ‘ Mr. Bissell. No, I don't. But I do mean to gay that; the Agency had put a top priority, probably, on a range of different methods of getting rid of Lumumba in the sense of either destroying him physically, incapacitating him, or eliminating his political influence. And a conversation about this particular facet of what was a many-sided attack md 3 < 2 6 ° ca < z the problem doesn't stand out in my mind. Mr. diGenova. What you are saying, then, is the de~ tails of any specific day or meeting or cable you don’t recollect, but you don't have any trouble recollecting the fact that the assassination of Lumumba, among others, was part of a strategy at that time, if needed? = Mr. Bissell. Yes. peepee sees ae Mr. Baron. And that was part of a strategy at the Se Raed S$ E., Wasnangion, O.0. 20003 level of the National Security Council as well as within the rea nee AGency? lates aren et os Mr. Bissell. believe that the language quoted would ALO Farst Sierer, TOP SECRET
Prone (Aree 202) $44-6000 PAUL 2 fe] 3 < z go indicate, yes. Mr. Schwarz. bid you attend any meeting of the National Security Council? Mr. Bissell. I don’t remember any on this subject, and I don't think I did. I very rarely attended the NSC as such, or its so-called planning committee. Robert Amory was the agency representative on that, and I have already said -- well, I did not by any means always, I would say not more than half the time, attended Svecial Group meetings. And since I also think Iws out of town when that was gent, it seems to me highly unlikely that I was at the Special Group meeting the day before that cable was sent. Mr. Baron. I think we should introduce for the record as Exhibit 2 the memorandum for the record of that Special Group meeting of August 25, 1960, which records Mr. Dulles being present, and does not list yourself as one of the participants. And it contains a paragraph substantially as Mr. diGenova related it where Gordon Gray, who was at that time Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, commented that his associates -- and we have testimony by Thomas Parrott, the Secretary who took these minutes, that Mr. Gray's associate was a euphemism to refer to the President. (The decument referred to was marked Bissell Exhibit No. 2 for identification. } TOP SECRET.
Prone {Area 2702} $44-4000 J 3 « a < Es} < « z G4 7Oo : STO Cust Street, S.E., Warmington, 0.0, Mr. Bissell. Correct. Mr. Baron. "Mr. Gray commented that his associates had expressed extremely strong feelings on the necessity for very straightforward action in this situation, and he wondered whether the plans as outlined were sufficient to accomplish this. "Mr. Dulles replied that he had taken the comments re- ferred tm seriously, and had every:intention of proceeding as vigorously as the situation permits or requires, but added tha he must necessarily put himself in a position of interpret— ing instructions of this kind within the bounds of necessity and capability. It was finally agreed that planning for the Congo would not necessarily rule out ‘consideration’ of any particular kind of activity which might contribute to getting rid of Lumumba". Then the next day after this meeting Mr. Dulles sends out the telegram or the cable that we have already discussed. Mr. Bissell. Right. Mr. Baron. Would you assume that Mr. Dulles'cable, which was sent to Leopoldville, was a direct outgrowth of this meeting that he had attended the previous day? Mr. Bissell. Obviously, sir. Mr. Dawson. Do you know? Mr. Bissell. I think there!is no question on the TOP SECRET. Hee Snag Wa ed Pe sed
basis of the documents. Mr. Baron. De you assume that assassination was one of the means of removing Lumumba from the acene that is contemplated within the language of Mr. Dulles' cable? Phone (Ares 202} 544-6008 teenie ta ttt oe Rann Mr, Bissell. Correct ~~ and also the language reported TAS pe in the minutes of the Special Group. eat Mr. Baron. And that would be in essence language-~ 9 elaboration of that point, you may remember that I perhaps | | | | Mr, Bissell. Could f just interrupt to say in | { | fortunately used the word "eircumlocutious”™ in earlier testimony to describe the way this kind of topic was discussed. This 4g a prime example of it. When you use the language that no particular means were ruled out, that is obviously what it meant, and it meant that to everybody in the room. WARD @ PAUL Mr. Wides, Meant what? Mr. Bissell. Meant that if it had to be assassination, that that was 4 permissible means. Mr. Baron. And that this: was permissible in the eyes of the President, whose: sentiments ~- who was being repre- gented at the meeting by Gordon Gray? Mr. Bissell. At least permissible by his representatives sitting in the room. You dontt use language of that kind except to mean in effect, the Director is being told, get rid of the guy, and if you have to use extreme. neans up to and including assassination, go ahead. TOP SECRET BiG Fest Street, S.E., Yeashinglon, 0.c. 20003
3 2 «< ry a fo) x < 3 S10 Fest Serect, SE., wasnengton, 0.C-. 70003 Mr. Baron. And in effect the Director is being told that by the President? Mr. Bissell. Right. Mr. Baron. Through his representative? Mr. Bissell. Right. Mr. Schwarz. Did Mr. Dulles tell you that President Eisenhower wanted Lumumba killed? Mr. Bissell. I am sure he didn't. Mc. Smothers. Did he ever tell you even circum- locutiously through this kind of cable? Mr. Bissell. Yes, I think his cable says it in effect. Mr. Smothers. Was this a thing that was clearly under- | stood here by everyone? What was that in your experince with: the Agency that had prepared you to understand this kind of coded dialogue, if you will? Was assassination something that was discussed fairly often? Mr. Bissell. No, I would say really very infrequently, very infrequently even discussed, let alone attempted. But I submit that the language just quoted from the minutes of the Special Group was not language internal to the Agency, it was language from a Cabinet level committee. 4 You may remember another document that was offered earlier in my testimony which was again minutes of a Special Group meeting, and it quoted Livingston Merchant, the State Depart- ment representative, again asking if there was no way to get TOP SECRET
Prone (Aree 202) $44-6000 WARD & FAUL om 7) Cc c- a C. CL. an ~ 470 Fost Street, S.E., Wastongyton, 1.0. PHF jy nm — ee ia uF rid of the Castro leadership in that case. I am sure you remember that document. Now, when senior political officers meet in a Cabinet Committee, especially when some kind of 4 record is being kept, they do talk around a subject of that kind. But it doesn’t mean that it is obscure or not understood by anyone there. I believe in both of these caees it is perfectly clear -- in the first Livingston Merchant case it is clear tha he was raising a question at to whether physically getting rid of these people was possible, and in the second case, the one just quoted here, dt seems to me that -~ if you like to call it that -7 the consensus of the Special Group was that "no means should be excluded in the effort to get rid of Lumumba”. And that, I repeat, is not CIA language. rf it is gobbledegook it is on a good high level. Mr. Dawson. Is Mr. Gray in this cable or memorandum for the Special Group on August 25, 1960, conveying the feeling of his associate, which we have identified clearly 4s president Eisenhower? Mr. Baron. Moving back now to the testimony of the Chief of Station who was in Leopoldvilie in 1960, he said that shortly after he received this cable that a4 messenger would come whom he would recognize and who would give him instructions to carry out. He received a visit from Mr. TOP SECRET
BY Se Say a ERE e Sa Be eT ST ‘ % eee. Gottlieb. And we have Giscussed that visit. He then goes on to testify that Dr. Gottlieb gave to him, or told him that he would very shortly thereafter receive, some lethal biologi- Pnone {Area 202} 544-6000 cal substances, and the tools for administering those sub- stances, namely, a syringe, gauze masks, and rubber gloves. Were auch lethal biological substances sent down to the Congo? . Rie ated Mr. Bissell. I don't know. I assume the record shows one way or the other. I don't have a recollection of that. Iwas really rather surprised on the occasion of the earlier testimony to have it reported that they had been sent. ; Mr. Baron. Would you assume now, hearing this testimony that indeed such substances were sent to the Congo? WARD ® PAUL c C. c. i. y { i ; Mr. Bissell. I think what you have told me, repeating | | the evidence of the Station’Chief,that Dr. Gottlieb told 7 _him to expect that, is that correct? Mr. Wides. The testimony is that the materials were brought by Pr. Gottlieb or essentially arrived while he was onas there, and that he went over their use with the Station Chief. That doesn't refresh your recollection at all with regard -- Mr. Bissell. No, it doesn't. But I am sure if the . Warhingion, O.C. Se Station Chief so testified it is correct, there is nothing in mind that I remember that would be in conflict with that. Mr. Baron. It would not have been against the policy TOP SECRET