I took a daposition this week and I think one of the things that might come out there, the Par might have terminated their mail coverg at that point but not CIA, Mr. Schwarz. The record is clear the CIA's lasted until February of 1973, Senator Schweiker. £ think the. deposition I took indicated that the FBI had terminated theirs sometime before that. : Mr. Smothers. How long had mail cover been going on? You say ahout 20 years? Mr. Helms. It was "52, $3, "54. re began somewhore in there,- Mr. Smothers. WAs there any particular deliveration 2 2 ¢ & 4 28 & @ g that you remember over this Paracraph here on page 28? Mr. Helms. I don‘t recall any discussion of this report ever. I mean it was delivered to President Nixon but I never saw him in connection with it. Mr, Smothers. Then this would not in your opinion have been an attempt to say one thing in writing to the Preaident while in fact creating-~ Mr. Nelms. I don't think so. I think you are going down a blind alley here, Mr. Smothers. I don't want to go. “Mr. elms. You can find cut from thease other gentlemen £30 Geen Aree, 4 & . Washington, 1 C S006) but I can't believe that we wouldé have put this report together TOP SECRET be ic Docld: 324793463 Page 151 CREST HY 50955
Mer. Smothers, Can you conceive of any Purpose at ali for having this Paragraph in here? Mr. Helms. No, except what I believe could be the case, that we are talking about an Far effort here, Mr. Smothers. Can you think of anything to be gained by CIA or any other Agency putting in thig report the fact that coverage had been discontinued? Mr.tlelma. Absolutely nothing, and you know this CIA Operation in any avent was on a very narrow focus. I believe in this connection a thought here was to have a great deal more coverage involving other Parts of the world. CIA * PI 3 @ ry « ce € -8 Operation involved just the Soviet Union and this desire, if recollection serves at &ll, to expand this domestic collection was not necessarily in the field of Russia, it was in a lot of other fields. Foam sorry Y haven't shed more light on it but I think that you might find some of the individuals who were on the working committee could be more specific ahout it. Mr. Schwarz, Yen't this the kind of thing. that a President first ought to be informed about or at least Cught not to be misinformed about? Do you agree with that? . Mr. Nelms. Yes. But, Bir, ft have a very hard time, 410 Fest Street at. Wevrangran, OE 2000) T really do, believing that there was any intention on the TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32423463 Page 1452
President, Now, what #ccounts for this 7 don't recall any more, I don't hava the whole document, I don't recall the temper of the times, Senator Hart of MIchigan. r¢ YOu were & high achool teacher and had given an assignment and thig turnad up in the aseignment how would YOu grade it in terms of accuracy and understanding ~~ ££ you were the reader of it, Senator Hart, ~— RAaRD o Paws a the report from ” Cover to cover that some Clarification might emerge, or am } wrong? Senator Mart of Michigan, t havente read it either and you may he quite right. And f really wasn't familiar with the thing at aj until the last five minute, and let me state mY Question with a little preliminary, Did the President ask te be advised with reapect to whatkind of mail covers were going on? Mr... Schwarz. Yes, what kind of restrictions existed as far as activity that might be undertaken, 410 F 0081 Stroma & g + Woveraton, OC. 20005 Mr. Helms, Senator Hart, maybe y Can help to Clarify, TOP SECRET HY 50955 Doacld: 32423463
pitta: oe SEP AW i iS) af "TOP SECRE Senator Hart of Michigan. Let me 6xplain why 2 react 68 Ido. And on this one Page we have in front of us four responsible Americans defined two kinds of covers, one which ia unacceptable, and with respect to that these four good Americans tell the Prasident covert coverage, which is the one defined here, has been discontinued. And Tiietened to the exchange it had not been discontinued. I-don't know what kind. of case it makes, if any, but tam trying to find out. Won't you agree that that would mis- lead a President? | Mr.Helma. As I sit here looking 7 it today I don't know why Lt wasn't clarified at the time. Senator Hart Of Michigan. It is Cluar. That is my point, Fi 3 4 8 @ :“ 8 € € & Senator Baker. This played a major role in Watergate hearings. . Senator Hart of Michigan. Youtake over. Senator Baker. The document was Produced with great fanfare and there was proof, which was at least uncertain, that Nixon authorized a go-ahead on the Huston Plan, that Mitchell was unhappy with it and prevailed on the President the next day to call it off, and it was never put into effect. But the entire report, 1 think, doésnot add much to shis information. 410 Fost Stewet, $.€., Wastrenston, 1.6. 20003 But T would call one's attention to an ambiguity which TOP SECRET HY 50955 Doacld:32423463 Page i154
ree ae cAI - ; ve ARTO ny e . y ie oo TOP SECRET I think might be helpful to this conversation... The CIA and military investigative agencies have mail cover halpful. Then it goes on to say that covert coverage has been discontinued because Congressional hearings involving accusation of governmental invasion of privacy. Those wera hearings of Army Spying,. net CIA spying. suggest that I am not entire Clear, maybe this interfaces 9 with the Army or Defense Department rather than ‘the CIA in 10 its focus on the question of continuance, 11! Mr. Helms, That ia helpful, because raally 1 truly believe it has to he something like that. Senator Baker, I do know thae Senator Ervin was 2 > - € a o q 8 deeply involved in the invasion of privacy military spying Situation. That was the One I helieve that got 80 much publicity and related back to the Huston Plan, Me. Schwarz. I wonder if the aentence that Senator Baker focussed on which tg the second sentence at the top, CIA and military investigative agencies have found this information Particularly helpful in the past. Doesn't that connote to a reader that. both for the CIA and the military it is a past matter? “Mr. Smothers.I think we have really asked the witness about the extent of his knowledqe on tnis. Maybe we ought to do a little more work on it. To ask him to speculate on TOP SECRET a1O Faas Street oe, Wangan. OC, 20005 HY 50955 Docld: 32423463 Page 155
why the past tense is used I don't think we are going any- where. Senator tart of Michigan. If it is the past tense I means something, Mr. Smothers. I agreo. I donte think the witness has indicated to us he can help us. Senator Hart of Michigan. ZT would still give dt a poor grade if I was the high school teacher. Mr. Helms. I have to agree with you. I dontt think this is a master piece of Clarity. Senator Bakar. TI think the beat thing would be to qet “> Tom Charles Huston and ask him, 4 Mr. Helms. Senator Naker, I don't want to delay this x proceeding but I thought this thing was put together by a ‘a 3 = a €. 7) 8 g g committee. Senator Baker. I think Huston was the one who probably produced it. Mr. Helms. Did he actually write it? I don't recall any more. I know there was some work qroup meeting and he was the one who put (Pen to paper. You would remember this better than I, But I-am really ask King for clarification. Was he the one who put pen to paper? Senator Saker. t am told now that may “not be the case. I think he was designated in the White House to produce the document. But I am told that Sullivan of. the PBI and TOP SECRET 10 F cos) Wireek, SE, hestongion. 0 S000 3 HY 50955 Docld: 32423463 Page 156
inomaricey ~ a Angleton at Cra actually provided the material that went into it. Bue © Guess Huston would be the editor of it, Mr.Nelma. It is the drafter I think we are looking Senator Hart of Michigan. Then 1 will reserve my grade for him. | . Senator Baker. Why don't we aak staff to interview Sullivan, Angleton and Huston? Mr. Schwarz. We have had luaston, Senator Hart of Michigan, 1 understand two have been interviewed. Mr. Aaron. That ia correct, i) 3 2 a « & 8 € & Senator Hart of Michigan. fhe third one should be. Senator Baker. Who hag been interviewed? Mr. Aaron, Mr. Sullivan was not under oath. Senator Hart of Michigan, Any further discuasion of document? T think counsel] Wanted to take up and finish with Schwarz, On Mr, Lumumba, you do remember him? Nelms. Patrice Lumumba? Mr. Schwarz.Yes. WAs he Someone the u.s, Government felt favorably toward? Mr. Helms. Back at that period of the Congo's history TOP SECRET HY 450955
ia Fea Sia P SECRET I didn't -- what I am trying to say ia that I am trying very hard at thie late date to Place Mr. Lumumba in his proper political niche. f£ am relatively certain that he represented - something that the United States Government didn't Like but I can't remember any more what it was. Was he a rightist or leftist? Senator Schweiker. Whatever it was he was marked for assasination, Senator Mathias. The curious thing rf remembor, drawing ‘purely on personal recollection, we actually had him come to “Washington a8 & guest of the U.S. Government and he stayed at Blair House and was wined and dined as our greatest friend at.one point, shortly after his accession to power. B) "a WAH & Phase, Senator Hart of Michigan, I think Fidel Castro came Pat % after he came to power. That wag the only time Congress s % took an early fall recess because they didn't want to Btay around here and have to have a joint session. They quit for the year. , Senator Baker. When are we getting hack? Mr. Schwarz. Do you know a man named Justin O'Donnell? Mr. Helms. Yes, sir, Mr. Schwarz. A CIA agent? Mr.Helms. He used to be an officer in the ClA,yes, sir. Mr. Schwarz. Were you aware that there was a plan to 410 5 ove Stoeet, 4 E. Wraemeiun TK S005 | assassinate Mr. Lumumba? TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32423463 Page 156
Mr. Heims. Not at the time. IT have obviously learned about these thinga subsequently because £ obviously read that report that was made in 1967 at the time so I was conscious later on that therewas, but I. have no contemporaneous recollection of this business about Lumumba. Mr. Smothers. Were you at all involved in that? Mr. Helms. I don't recall having been and I think I might very well have but I just don't recall this buainess “about Lumumba. Actually what was wrong with Lumumba, why didn't we Like him? Senator Schweiker. That is the tragedy of the whole WROD & FAUL thing. Nobody knows why we wanted to gat rid of somebody. Mr. Smothers. Do you have any recollection beyond ey what appears in the report or are we just +--+ Mr. Helms. No, I don't. Ap & matter of fact, interestingly snough, when was Malcolm X alive? He died but when was it? In any event, it is not important about the dates but Y remember that in a particular era when he was alive a lot of his followers were very much opposed to the CIA and were making statements about it and so forth, the &llegations being widespread in that part of the black community that the CIA had done Mr. Lumumba in, and I remen- S10 Fast Street, SE, Wahinsion, DC MOO) ber making some inquiries at the time to find aut if there TOP SECRET 5 ua HY 50955 Docld: 32423463 Page 159
PES oe? ge CRET Community. put that is ali y remember about it. Mz. Schwarz, Mr. Bissell has testified that there was at least a plan to assasainate Lumumba, Bid you check with him when YOu made that check? Mr. Helma, No, he left the agency by that time, Schwarz, Mr. O'Donnel} testifiag that he wag asked Do you know er. Gottlieb? Mr. Helms. iSidney Gettllab? Mr. Schwarz. Bissell had asked him to kill Lumumba but that he wasn't going to do it, and you said you agreed he shouldn't do it? I donte remember the Conversation at ald but I don't have any reason to cavil with ie. E don't recall the conversation, Mr, Schwarz, You can't add anything on thac? Mr. Helms, No, 2 Senator ‘Schweiker. What Capacity were YOU serving in 4G Far Sree. ae | Partington, 5 € Pee) then? TOP SECRET 60 HY 50955 Docld: 32423463 Page 1
- Ry) ‘ RAB @ Pau, ron Land 410 Fort Steoer ot, Hovtungton, OC 20003 gah aN AY Mr. Helms. I would have been Mr, Blasell's number 2 Johnson's mind but I believe he asked me for all three of these. Ee i ae: oy om bah f Nh eSaEL TS Bivalh “TOP SECRET at. that time. Senator Schwelker. Chief of Operations? Mr. Helms, Yea, Senator Schweiker, If they sent Poison down to the Congo, would you have had to know something about that? Mr. Helms. You sec, maybe yea, maybe no, Senator Schweiker, because & Deputy Director could make his own arrangements without necassarily going through his under- lings if he chose, and if he had wanted to make specific .. - arrangements for something of this king he wouldn't necessarily ~~~ have to tell me that, ‘Tt would be his option that. That is what 1 am : trying to say. Mr. Schwarz. You had a report prepared on Trujillo also in 1967. Why did you have that report ‘prepared, incidentally. since the Drew Pearson column had been Limited to Castro? Mr. Helms. I thought this was al} done at the same time. Did Mr. Breckenridge have any other recollection? Weren't these three rportsa done together because -=- Mr. Schwarz. They were all done in the spring of 1967, Mr. Helms. My recollection is it was the Drew Pearson a thing that may have triggered this off in President’ 8 TOP SECRET HY 50955 Docld:324233463 Page 161
aA betas Sy Mr. Schwarg, Do you recall his @aying anything Bpe- cifically about Trujillo, why Trujillo wag included? Mr. Halma. I think he was just trying to check on. various reports that he had heard about how these people had come to die. You know there were assertions around that, and I have forgotten any more whether they were newspaper assertions or just things sort of mont ionod by the back of the hand, but he wanted to know whother the Agency had been respon- sible for these deaths and that was why fF asked to have this work done. Mr. Schwarz, All right, now, on Diem. I think you told us yesterday afternoon that he, President Johnaon, had a particular theory about the death of Mr. Diem. t % FAR a FA ESE, Would you recount that for the committee? Mr. Helms. He once said to me that he just wondered whether President Kennedy hadn't died because he had caused the death of -:President Diem of Vietnam, and I remember him having said this to me because it struck me hard at the time. J thought this was a peculiar conception, but that is all I know about it and ‘the conversation never went any further. Mr. Schwarz. You had the report done on Trujlllo and you reported back to Preaident Johnson about al} three matters, Castro, Trujllle and Diem? Mr. Helms. Yes, sir, TOP SECRET 410 Font Street. Sf, trawmingran, OC. PNG! HY 50955 Docld:324233463 Page 162
TOP SECRET Mr. Schwarz. When you reported on Trujillo, based upon the °67 report, did you Bay that the Agency had or had not had anything to do with the death of Mr. Trujillo? Mr. Halma. I gave him the controversy as f recall it that want on but said that it was my opinion that the evidence Y pointed in the direction of the Agency not being responsible for his death. ~ Senator Schweiker. On the Diem point, in your CIA work with South Vietnam was there any link that comes to your mind as to why Preaident Jonson might have said that? Any connection at all between Diem and Kennedy that comes to CIA ‘s attention? Mr. Helms. No, that was what struck me, Sonator Pd 3 a e a a) & « -¢ Schweiker. I probablywouldn’t have remembered something like this if it hadn‘t seemed to be an odd belief to have. . My recollection is he said this to me not terribly lona after President Kennedy's assassination and that it may have been part of the trauma of a conspiratorial theory of the time and I honestly don't know hut it did strike me one9 3 as odd. Mr. Schwarz. Isn't he quoted by someone else in the press linking possibly Lee Harvey Oswald to Cuba, too? . Mastingion, & ¢ Are you aware of that? I think thia {s just a news report, this is nothing more than that, that one of the people BUG Fat Seemed oe who talked to him thought there might be soma connection TOP SECRET. HY 50955 “Docld: 32423463 Page 163
betwaen Cuba and Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Helms. Not long ago, Senator Schweiker, 1 forget, | T guess i¢ must have been on one of my trips back here, [I ‘ don't remember which one, but I was watching a news report one night and it seemed to me that Walter Kronkite had m some kind of a clip in the news report. 7 | ; Senator Schweiker. Of an intorview? 8 Mr. Helms. An interview with President Johnson {n which : 9 | this wag generally adverted to, 1 don't remember the ‘ 10 | exact words, But President Johnson sort of ended up saying you 1) | know I am not entirely sure or something and sort of tralled fae ti {i ', 2 : off, = 2 E @ : 1) | Mr. Schwarz. Was that the occasion on. which President a 1s Johnson said we had at some points been running a Murder, Inc. ‘ 15 | in the Caribbean? i Mr. Helms. No, that language wasn't used. This was an 3 3 Seeaeriiess 1 : i 17 } interview after he ceased to be President, it was part of oe be “the long series Kronkite made at the ranch sometime after he . ly left office. {i ; a" Senator Mathias. Was this Statement hy President Johnson S Go 4 ' Qo 4 2} Bort of amoral, was he drawing a moral conclusion? EB 4 tS $ 2p | Mr. Helms. It seemed to me to have a heavy overtone of feces f : . Be Pr o ; that. . i i . 3 24 | Senator Mathias. Rather than a factual historical : 8 i od n? 2 25 eductic at TOP SECRET * earner Se caenereh YT SEM Ef Dad mg 7
Mr. Helms. Yea,sir, Senator Schweiker. It waa Clearly a sugpicion, if you | 3 saw the film. : 4 | Senator Baker. I- think it was clearly speculative. 5 But I think the tone of the statement was ha had reason to be- 6 | lieve but was not sure that there had been a conspiracy of 9 | some kind. 8 Senator Mathias. That President Kennedy had brought dowr. on 9 the nemesis from the skies on himself. ° 10 | Sehator Baker, I think that maybe a second conclu- “ “ 1} sion, . ty }2 I would request, if i may, that counsel obtain a copy e : 13 | or transcript of that interview and insert that in the record. ¢ 1g Mr. Schwarz. Yes. : c: 15 | At the time Trujillo died, May 30, ‘61, you were Mr. ae 16 Bissell’s deputy then? ~ Ww Mr. Helms. Yes, sir. . le " Mr. Schwarz. Did you have anything to do with the . TA passage of weapons from the United States to dissidents in : we! the Dominican Republic? j 2} Mc. Helms. My recollection of the Trujillo business is i oy | this was handled largely by Mr. Bissell and the Chief of : a the Western Hemisphere Division at that time, Colonel King, and 24 : that I got into it and as the record shows that I got into it 3 25 i | | at one point when Bissell must have ben away somethere. TOP SECRET
ae b 4 ri 2 3 bog 5 6 7 8 . 9 10 : 1} .; Ve 3 @ ‘ is eg ct 14 : 1s _ 16 nN 17 “ 1% : * 20 & § 2) € : 22 , 2% t : 24 2 : 25 1é ° roth, tae 1 eee ts San oy AS Te ae hse 161 In other words, this authorizing some document or other. The question has come up. about whether OF not weapons were passed in the pouch,the official pouch to the Dominican Republic, and I was suggesting, as you remember yesterday afternoon, I don't Know whether those records exist any more, but I was really seriously . wondering whether the actual State Dopartmnnt pouch had ever been used for such a purpose because I had put a watch dog on the pouch for the simple reason that we were using State Department facilities, that they had certain regulations about the kind of things that should go in the pouch, and I wanted to be certain that year-in and yoar-out there were not abuses of the pouch privilege Le because of the terrible temptation on the lowest level for employees to want to send perfume and other customs items through the pouch to avoid paying duties and so forth, and that also there are all kinds of abuses that one can make over a pouch that can’t be opened by foreigners or domestics. S50, I had the widow of a foreign service officer periodically on this jeb to be sure there weren't violations of the pouch, and if it should come to me there should be a record whether anybody made an exception, whether I or any- beay else in the Agency for sending guns through the pouch, there should be something there to indicate that exception was made. fi In other words, this is not something that somebody TOP SECRET
+ ~ RAD & Pau e000} 410 Fernt Strewt, SE, Washongian, Ot could do just by saying send this package in the pouch. Mr. Schwarz. The record shows some weapons were sent through the pouch,the record being the report made to you in '67. But I asked you, I think, whether you knew in 1960 or 1961 that the U.S. Government had supplied weapons to dissidents in the Domincan Republic. Mr. Halms. Tam sorry, Mr Schwarz, I don't remember. I mean I could have known. I don't think x knew. I don’t think I was involvad in that part of the operation, But, on the A other hand, with all of the thinga that have gone on through theyears it could have been that I have been told about this. Mr. Schwarz. Then I take it also fullows you can't Me add anything as to whether or not the Agency had authority te supply guns at all, number one: had authority to supply guns for the purpose of assassination, number two? Mr. Helms. I thought that when I was reading this 1.6, report that there was a voluminous amount of telegraphic correspondence and memoranda and so forth about every move aa in this whole thing being cleared with the State Department and so forth. Are these things not covered in that record? | Mr. Schwarz. There was a great deal of alscusaion of clearance with the State Department. Indeed, there is a man called Deerborn who is in the State Department who appears to be a motivating foree. TOP SECRET
a 3 “a FY a “Oo @ € rs 1G Farnt Street, 4 €.. Wasnengtan, O.C 20003 What dan't entirely clear is whether particularly st the last month the knowladga of the Persons on both sides of the fence or in the Agency and outside is on an equal footing. All things except for that are clear and I take it -- Mr. Helma. I can't help on that. I am sorry, I recally \ can't. Senator Hart-of Michigan. Do any members have any questions of the Ambassador? Senator Schweiker. Yes. You gave us your philosophy, Mr. Ambassador, on assassi- nations a moment ago, and I believe you inferred, and maybe said to the ataff earlier, that. during your tenure se Director of the Central Intelligence Agency there were no political assassinations that took place. Am I putting words in your mouth? Mr. Helms. No, you are not. I said that. Senator Schweiker. That is correct. I wonder again, for the guidance of this committee, you haven't gotten into this other area yot, but I think in view of your one statement and your experience it would be helpful, what was your policy as Director of Central Ingelliuence on what we have read about in the press and media and books and, et cetera, on termination of assets who have outlived their usefulness or termination of other agents? I wonder if you would for the record philosophically tell us your TOP SECRET
~9 bt wt . y WARD & Pauy be at 14 a a? 16 , Mh, Lia - 19 e § 2: § 3 z £2 ° 2 t a e * PM g 25 5 ret 3 policy on that while you were Director. Mr. Helma. Yea, air. These exotic phrases are euphemisms that are used to deseribe these purposes, none of them were indulged in with my permission and I don't believe they were indulged in at all. I just simply did not believe in this method of taking care of one's embarrass~ ments, if you want to call it that, and I never authorized any ¢cuch actions at any ‘time. Ag I explained this morning, it is not only the moral question involved but in our form of country and with our philosophy and, if you like, ‘theology, it aimply fantt an oF : acceptable way to do business and, therefore, other methods oe have to be found. I know in the literature of espionage and secret wars and so forth, particularly British, French, German, Russian, and - : EM so forth, there are references to the fact when an agent, secret agent becomes an embarrassment he was eliminated, he was gotten rid of. But I just don't believe that this was 3 ay viable system, either morally or any other way, for us to conduct ourselves with people who had gone seur and we just tried to find other methods of taking care of the problem. Senator Schweiker. In the earlier days, before your tenure as Director, was this always our policy,or maybe earlier in the era of the CIA this was not aa firmly estab-~ lished or left to locai option. TOP SECRET
i rues 10 1] ~ V2 4 4 RASS & PHL ~ « 14 7 n er tn 16 1? C 2U 9 5 2) 4 i z 2r ‘ ee t @o  * . 8 3 25 le: ae What da your recollection, not whan you were Director, but policies preceding that, from your experience? Mr. Helms, I don't recall any incidents of agents that went gour being eliminated during any of these 25 years. I really don't recall any incidents of this. 1 can't gay that other times it’ might not have happened and I never learned of it, but I don't know of any. Senator Hart of Michigan. That is all I have. Nr. Schwarz. I think you said now, or you said earlior, that killing or assassination, killing of agents or sssassina- tions of political leaders were both impractical, because of the likelihood of exposure, and so forth, and undesirable or unacceptable to our society, right? Mr. Helms. Yes, that is right. Mr. Schwarz. Now, you also have said that, focussina on the Castro operation, there the pressure to get rid of Castre or to overthrow the Castro government constituted an author- é ization, at least an implicit authorization to kill him, to. assasainate him. Is that right? Mr. Helms. Yes, I think that is generally an accurate phrasing of it. " Mr. Schwarz. Now, there is a conflict. Not a conflict but a tension between- those two pieces i! your testimony. TOP SECRET
ro PES ‘9 i ee Mr. Helms. Right. Mr. Schwarz. Now when you became Director, so that you were in charge and recognized that you knew that efforts 4 had been undertaken to assassinate ‘Mr. Castro under the general instruction to overthrow his government, and recog- I simply didn't want this to go on, and I think if you will 6 | nizing further that it 1a your attitude or it is your testimony ? that you thought that was unacceptable for both practical 8 and moral reasons, did you take any stepa to issue an insatruc- , 9 tion to prevent such activity from eccurring again? : ° 10 | Mr. Helms. Well, I do know that, and I don't recall now | | the means that this manifested itscif in, but I certainly ° 12 | made it clear to my senior associates when I was Director, | { | 1 os MARV h PRU ne te 144 talk to them you will find that they understood this very f Ls i clearly. r i 16 ; fs. | Mr. Schwarz. Of course that is what Mr. McCone said woes L7os when he took over. 5 Mr. Helms. I understand that. But I -mean we can : g " roll this over and over and over, but may I just say one . 20 . 6 “3 thing. As somebody pointed out in the newspsper not long f | ago, if someone had killed Witler in 1938 and '39 it might have ? ey | a . i gaved the world quite a number of deaths and a very difficult v . . - eo" . t ' war and vast expense and all the rest of it. And is it not 2 iH 3 24 4 - f possible that even in the good sense of the citizens of the °o TOP SECRET
WARD & Hm, « Wavtungtun 1 © “OO 3 st 810 8 at Stroet, -Y aoe, i rn Suit went coe i ———— ae United States of America that there are some occasions on which they seem to think that the Provocation is larger than it ia on others and that certain actions would be more accept- able in one climate than they would be in another climate, @ven though in the atrict, interpretation of law and moral judgment this might not be the case, | I simply have to rest my case this way because it seems to me history shows this. Senator Schweiker. How do You know when a Hitler Be becomes Hitler and where do you draw the Line when a Trujille ought te gO or Lumumba ought to Go, and who makes that decision? Mr. telms. It certainly cought to be made at the top of the government, Senator Schweiker. rt certainly ought to be made by political official who are Subject to the will of the. people and the Congress. | Senator Schweiker. 1 have one more question, This is going ahead a little bit, Mr, Ambassador, based on your 25 years of experience, and having seen now many of the problems that have come to bear for the Agency, Or all intelligence, including not only the assassination proh- lems but domestic Surveillance Problems, and the Problem with Congress and Laos and the war there. What advice could you give this committee to avoid areas such an this for the intelligence agency of the future TOP SECRET
Te eae es eS end naah al fols re ne ee RAM % Paws - . 7 430 ferst Street, $ E., Wasmingion. O.C 20003 Raa) Nae teas) bane we 8 <" wh * so we do have a strong intelligence agency doing legitimate intelligence activities yet not hamstringing it but yet making sure some of the things we have learned the hard. way over these 20-some years don't happen again? What advice could you give to us to do that? TOP SECRET
Ye Fy i Mr. Helms. Sir, I thin k that I would like to answer ie § 2 you by saying that obviously I have given thought to these H 3 matters. I have wondered what it was that if it had happened i 4 differently through the years might have avoided these various | 5 things. 6 I have looked at the law, the statute. I think there | 7 | are things that should be changed in it and I think it should ss) | be tightened up in certain respects, but 1 am also mindful of , 9 the fact that ag long as one is dealing with himan beings, ; 10 | written words are not going to be the determining factor in ~ 1] their conduct 24 hours 4 day seven days of the week, and that - 12 I would hope that in the future what ts called oversight over ‘ 14 intelligence activities been given a fuller opportunity,. 8 : ‘ ‘ 14 I hecause I honestly believe that part of the problem through : 15 | the years has been that those people who had oversight over * 16 | intelligence activities, or particularly the activities of the ™ an CIA, were gwenior officials both in the Executive and in Congress LE " who were so busy and so preoccuplied about other matters that Lt 4 rather short shrift has been given to this activity, and if P90 8 there are better oversight or better opportunities to have e EU y fa . § 2} i extended conversations with members of the Congress, for > y rs ' z ii : py ll example, IT think some of these things could be headed off . ; “ ‘gy simply by an indication from a chairman of a committee or t ' 2 24° something that this didn't scem to be desirable, or from sume $ ane = 25 | other Senators. TOP SECRET
Om peti gals “| Root said ? ate re Cae Me 470 For example, let me just take a specific instance. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee, when I was leaving, A had a hearing about something having to do with police } 4 | departments, It was the-sense of the Committee that this was i] 5 | an undesirable activity for the Agency to be helping police 6 departments directly, so they made 4 statement to the effect " | this should stop. So I believe it was stopped that very day. 8 | There isn’t any desire of these people to go bayond what they 9 have been told not to do. But £f you can't get ahold of your ° | oversight committee or they don’t have meetings and you are 7 1 busy you go ahead doing as beat you can, and I honestly r be believe,you know, as I look back in history that Mr. Dulles 4 i is j would have been very pleased if he would have had a couple i 14 | of Senators by the hand when he went into the Bay of Pigs. ; 1s Senator Schweiker. I think you are perfectly right abouts AD: te | oversight. I couldn't agree with you more. And I think here N. -f Congress itself has been derelict. I agree with that. I "| think that is a very serious weakness of Congress on the over- a sight committees. The other aspect I think is important, tac, i ve | and [I concede the first point is in many cases when some u ° a | oversight was tried to be exercised, and let me say very litt! ‘ oy | was. 1 don't think the intelligence agencies leveled with the £ I : Congress per ge, too, and I think that that is a very serious i va | problem from those who want to say they want to do a good jot 2 4: , : 25 when you don't have that leveling or credibility or whatever TOP SECRET
ie Ths Me parts ETI ¥ * BA ane a aa ars ae Fe! BNE Neer eer eed ei RL AEN | Wes pe iokees SE Bee boy) ¥: STEREO CHER SAREE i MA pe WARD ® FALL 41G Fest Strewi, Sf | Wawhengion 9 C 70G03 So St ee to ‘TOP: SECRET , you want to call it, how do we.instill that in a system? Mr. Helms. I thought that the Agency's record of level- ing was pretty good when given the opportunity. Senator Schweiker, I don't recall ever being before one of the oversight committees get up by Congress and not absolutely honestly and fairly answering any question I was asked. Senator Schweiker. Now, how about the war in Laos? 1 “m sat on the House and Senate Armed Sarvicer Committees, Mr. j Ambassador, and I think I' was on there for eight years, ali during the war, before CIA owned up to conducting a war in Laos. And I think Stu Symington, who sat on the Select or on the Committee on Supervision of CIA made the discovery. I can't agree with you on Laos because I sat on the House and Senate Armed Service Committees when you folks came a number of times and testified and we had to stumble into it backwards. I think Senator Symington really did it throuqh Foreign Relations contacts, even though he was on the Oversiqht Committee of the Armed Services. Ithink there is a case where I won't agree with you, even though I aqree with what you said about oversight. Would you mind if f ducked Mr. Helms. I am under oath. this? I can give you no answer except to tell the truth and I would rather not get into it now, if you don't mind, unless it is important to you. TOP SECRET
Teiiicle iat fos eee RS ee ae Could I talk to you privately about it if you like? Senator Schweiker. Okay. 3 Senator Baker. (Presiding). Are there other questions? | é . Senator Schwelkar.-One other question I do hava. In 5 | terms of assassinations, did any membar of Congress know of 6 | any assassination attempts? In other words, did the Agency in 7 | the oversight responsibility level with any members of 8 Congress or oversight committees about assassinations? 9 Mr. Helms, I don't know of any conversations about this. - so Senator Schwoiker. That is all I have. a j 7 Mr. Madigan. Mr. Ambassador, there have been rumors of resent vintage that the CIA has contributed money to political 3 i ‘ vl campaigns. i ual Do you know or have any knowledye as to whether --~ rei Mr. Helms. Where is that, sir? What political campaigns? 7 sel Mr. Madigan. In the United States? Mm. se Mr. Helms. Never to my knowledge. Mr. Madigan. None to your knowledge? te Mr. Helms. No sir. : pot - Senater Mathias. Ambassador, You, 1 think explained v 7 3 ‘ a | very fully and lucidly the way in which you felt you had i oo | authority to act in the very situations , which was a kind ot oa | a blanket authority without restriction, and that once this ‘ : oa! was determined, as illustrated by the case of Attorney : 4! : 25 : General Robert Kennedy, you didn't feel it was necagsary anc TOP SECRET
l refresh that authority with each succeeding episode? Mr. Helms. Yas, I would prefer, Mr. Mathias, to say tha 3 we were seeing him so regularly that we falt that we were in ‘ Bogen Aree POT) 364-4008 nN 4 | tuna with what he dasired and what was acceptable. } Senator Mathias. There was an exchange of, if not words, 4 6 | @n-eaxchahge of ideass and feelings that kept the situation 9 current and continually kept you reassured that there was no 8 lack, there had been no change of direction at the highest 9 levels? 10 Mr. Nelms. Yea alr. 13 Senator Mathias. That was truo as far as the Castro ° be aituation was concerned? In other situations was there an exchange of ideas in ‘ this same level of intensity? HARD & Paoe - fs | Mr. Helms. I don’t recall except on Vietnam as many 15 | ae 16 regular exchanges on any subject as there were on Cuba.- And i « : i r 1? r to get the attention of the top members of the Government on t d 1é » a continuing basis on one theme really takes a great deal of attention to that theme on the part of the White House in - ly j er) : order to generate the fact that the Secretary of State should F 2} attend that meeting rather than that meating on a apecific «tty. ; oy | The power of the President flows into these matters in a strange : at ! way and if the Secretary of State appears at an inter-Govarn- ; 24 mental meeting it is because he is pretty clear in his mind : os | that is where he cought to be that day rather than making a TOP SECRET
apeech in Chicago or something. Senator Mathias. How did you manage then under thase difficult circumstances -- I understand exactiy what you are i saying -= manage to be. sure that, say, in the Lumumba situation o> 5 | ox Trujillo situation that there was this game kind of con- 6 | tinudng policy, or there hadn't begn any change in policy? 9 | Mr. Helms. I don't know the Lumumba situation, I don't 8 know where the idea came from or what the policy waa any longer 9 | at all, and the Trujillo situation I think that the record ° ic | shows an on-going back and forthing between the Agency and 7 i: | the State Department about the situation in the Dominican Republic. . ro] Here it seems to me we had a situation in which it RWARG & Pave bs to stayed in CIA rather than inter-agency committed formally “ established dealing with thian matter. I know in there, for de: of 1¢ } example, Assistant Secretary Rubottom's name keeps coming Ps 1? up again and again so I assume the Agency people were dealing 1: on a continuing basis. . ly Senator Mathias. Now, after November 22, 1363, when : Pe President Johnsen came in, 1 think your testimony is that you L . F gs continued to deal with Attorney General Kennedy? i oe " Me. Helms. I think for a time we did as long as he was z ‘ ze Attorney General. 1 forget how long he stayed there. But 1 : 24 recall even seeing him at one time and saying is there any 4 e, : os | truth to the rumor you are going to leave and run for the TOP SECRET
‘ ARO ® PALL POG0 § SE, Maeetor. OC BRO 8 ead Street, BF ok POR Ha, Senate, and he said yeas, it ia true. Soa I must have been seein him up to that time. This is just something that occurred to me at this moment but I do recall asking him that question. Senator Mathias. And you continued to deal on these matters with him although he didn't atand in quite the same relationship with President Johnson as he obviously had to Presidant Kennedy? - Mr. Helms. I think on the matter of the Castro business © it would have been with that Special Group rather than him particularly, ‘because by this time that thing had wound down somewhat. But I think that he was atill involved. TI think that isa right. Senator Mathias. So there isa kind of fluidity about the whole relationship in all of thease matters that is very difficult to ~~ Mr. Helms. Would it he helpful to you if I were to say over this period of 25 years it has been a very fluid thing, this busoness of getting clearances and approvals and how close you are piped in and how close you are not piped in and Hb oversight and all of these things do change through the years. It is one of the reasons I think that the establishment of the Select Committee 25 years later to look at the intelligence community is a very baluable, wize thing for our country. i think a lot of things have to be brought up to date. If thine the experiances of 25 years ought te be used to tighten this TOP SECRET
3 Prone t&rea 202) $44-4000 4 WARD & Pau be é. a F . & c $ z: 3 $ : 22 2 410 test Street Nn ~s third and then you add a fourth and then tou find some way to things up in the right places. The intelligence community so-called has kind of grown like Topsy over the years. Here was an agency and there was another agency and then you add a relate them and find soma way to try and coordinate them and find some way to get Congressional oversight of them and if you were to start from absolute acratch and one day say let's set up an intelligence community you might sat the thing up entirely differently and maybe more effectively. So the 25 years later I think it is just fine that this Committe has aeized this problem. It is very difficule one and I don't ; i believe by circling you are going to find many easy answers but it is certainly an effort worth making-on behalf of our country. After ali, two things. Intelligence is the first line of defense hy good effective intelligence organizations, but it has to be good, there is no sense in having an intelli- gence organization like the German one during World War II, which was no good. That does you more harm than good. I don't mean to keep saying that word. The other thing is that in the arranging of the intelligence community, the establish- ment of some kind of an organization which wags set up after Pearl Harbor and designated the CIA to get material from a}} over the Government and give balanced judgments not Bubject to political or departmental pressures, ag to what they believe th: future holds or what thay believe the strength of the Soviet TOP SECRET
Prone {Ares POP) 444-6000) wae w Pau, be « fs, be B10 Fret Seems SF | tashengtnm EC oneot SEK en ‘ TOP SECRET Union is ig very important because if that function falls into | the hande of the self-servers there wouldn't be enough money in the world to support our military establiahment. Senator Mathias. I think that is a very helpful and useful comment. I think we understand that by whatever means, by whatever form of human communication was involved that original authorizations were given even at various times for given projects. The projects may have altered. I think the teatimony, not only your testimony but Mr. Bissell's and others has been that a project undertaken to remove somebody in a political sense might become later a project to remove that same person in a physical sense. So the projects did alter. But, all pursuant to the ortqinal authorization, do you think that there was adequate political control as this kind of undulation took place, that a President or a Preaident's designee, for exampla, sufficiently aware of the undulations and had an opportunity to veto the action at some point, at sone critical peint? Mr. Helms. I think that the basic thruat of what you are saying is quite accurate. As a long time, I might put it this way, bureaucrat, it seems to me one of the qreat problems ot Government is that one starts something it takes ona life of its own, then it gets turned off far too late, and I have bren gudity of this in my own work. I know this, but it is also TOP SECRET
0 true of departments of Government. And if the Senate, for example, every year had put before it a list of all the things that it had set up the year before, I venture to aay there ‘ 3 i afl might be a percentage of them you would Like to get rid of a : 5 | year later or five years later, but they continue going on and 6 getting budgeted and employing people and so forth and nobody : ” gets around to stopping them. « 8 | Senator Mathias. We have a snuff box on the floor of 9 the Senate. It is filled everyday. nd 10 Let me ask off the record, ne 1 (Off the record discussion} eS . i! Senator Schweiker. I have one question. Mr. Ambassador, 3 had the CIA, to your knowledge, ever used Peace Corps or Peace ( > . . wARS & Phas bo es y i Corps members as either direct assistants in any way to our Pace Mee a ti ‘ 1s overseas intelligence activities? : | at , Mr. Helms. No sir. I say no air emphatically because 6 1? ci 4t clear to everybody that was involved in the clandestine lt hs i" I remember ain this case specifically writing a paper making ll + side of the CIA the Peace Corps waa not to he used because j 26 | Sargeant Shriver when he was head of the Peace Corpr went to ° at Preaident Kennedy one day and charged that we were using the : ont Peace Corps for cover. And I went into prove that Mr. Shriver z 23 ~ "was wrong and as a result of this 1 said there is only one “ ae a i oe way to be absolutely certain and that is for me to ban this, :. . and I am glad to ban it because we didn't need the Peace Corus TOP SECRET
WARD B&B PAUL ATO Fotst Stemet, SP. Wastimnatan OC FORK) TOP. SECRET. and I don’t want to corrupt an organization which has a very clear purpose and shining light and so forth, so I issued those instructions and I am relatively certain they were com- plied with through the yoars. Senator Schweiker. Can you shed any light -- I think our Peace Corps people were thrown out of Ceylon with the allegation that they were helping the CIA? Mr. Helma This was a KGB political or psychological war- fare rather, At that time for years, even very shortly after the Peace Corps bagan, that the Soviet Propaganda kept asserting that it was CIA that was under the Peace Corps, it was CIA,that was in the Arab press and Asiatic press and African press, and I would assume the Ceylonese press. It wart! exactly the same, it was Communist propaganda. Senator Schweiker. There is a written memorandum or written order that is still in effect on this point? ‘Mr. Helms. It goes back to the early days of the found- ing of the Peace Corps. eee Senator Schwiker. I wonder if we could get that for the record? - That is all. Senator Baker. Let me ask you two quick questions. Would you supply for us now or later in one of your subsequent appearances some indication of how the CIA interacted or cooperated with the DIA and the NSA? TOP SECRET
Prone {Aree 207} 544-4009 RAROD &® FauE Is. BIG Coeek Brees VE. ahengtan OC SNOOE Mr. Helma. Let me write down this note. i Senator Baker. We can giv e you a copy of the transcript, What I really want to say is a general description of how CIA interacted with the other intelligence gathering bodies of the Government, FBI, NSA, DIA, and others. I understand there are 16 that have a primary intelli- gence gathering mission. ‘Mr. Welms. Right. Senator Baker. And I really think it might ba better later after you give it some thought. Mr. Helms. Yes, I would appreciate being able to refresh my memory and on my subsequent appearances, why don't I cover that? I just wanted to write the notes down to have your request accurately. . Senator Baker. If there are no other questions we thank you for being a patient and cooperative witness in an entire day of testimony and the hearing will stand in recess Bubject to the call of the Chair. Mr. Helms. Senator Baker, as the Chairman, may 1 say that I would prefer not to make & statement to the press or get involved in colloquy with them, I wanted to say this before so I don't fly under false colors, that I intend to aneak out of here as best as [I can. . Mr. Schwarz. There is a way you can get out from behind. TOP SECRET
ce Tyee vier TEN. Kd sig ial - 281 Mr. Helma, r think we have been trying to contrive wa) f ' 1 o : 2: through the day. H 3 Senator Baker. We will be willing accessories to that. } : (Whereupon, at 4:13 P.m., the hearing wag recessed 5 subject to the call of the Chair.) 6 "| . 9 { ' 12 {i i i . 12 | WARD & Phir toms ts 410 Fest Steet SE | vravuagion, D €. 2000) TOP SECRET
SECRET /SENSILIV FE fOr: ‘The Director FROM: Johan A. McCone . 1 No memorandum can be located cove ring the August 10, 1962 meeting; however, itis highly probable that onc exists. 2, Mectings of August 8 of 9, 1962, in the JCS Operations Room (Pentagon) and August 10, 1962, in Scerctary Rusk's Conference Room were for the purpose of considering staff proposals for Phase Il of opera- tlen MONGOOSE. ‘This ope ration was under the directiun of General Lansdala, with Win. Harvey handling CIA participation (under FitzGerald). At one of these mectings =~ probably the meeting in the JCS Roum -- i recall a suggestion being made to liquidate top people tn the Castro regime, including Castro. 7 took iminediate exception to this suggestion, Stating that the subject was coinpletely out of bounds as far as the ISG and CIA were Conce roed and the idea should wot be di-vcussed nor should it appear in any paperds 9% the USG could not constder such actions on inoral of ethical rounds. 3, lnmnediately afler the inceting, LT called un Seeretary McNatnara pe rsunally and re -emphasized my position, in which he heartily agreed. J did this because ope ration MONGOOSE -- an inte r-departmental affair -- was under the ope rational cuntrol of DOD through the ICs, 4, At no time did the suggestion receive scricus conside ration by the Special Group (augmented) nor by any individual responsible for policy. 5, Through the years the Cuban problem was discussed in terms such as “dispose of Castro," Uremove Castro," “knock off Castro," etc., and this rncant the ove rthrow of the Coimunist Gove roment in Cuba and the replacing of it with a democratic regiine. ‘Terms such as the above appear in many working papers, ineineranda for the rucurd, ttCes and, as stated, all refer toa change in the Cuban Governinent, a QuritGau— Jbiin A. McCune SECRET {SENSITIVE
16 August 1963 - ee qe > EVES GALY, EMORANDUM POR: ‘The Director of Central Tntelligenca , , , SUAJECT 2: Sam Glancana ‘ . is , 1. Altached is the only copy in the Agency of a remo- randaug on subject, the ribbon copy of which was sunt to the Attorney General in May of 1962. I was vaguely aware of ea. . ho existence of such a monoraintdum since I was informad fe “ . that dt had been written as a result of a briofing piven ; Ly Colonel Falwardgs and Tasvrencea Houston to the AlLornay wininatait , General in May of last year. : ee . ?, [spoke vith Colonel Hdvards on the telaphane last © . eventing, and, da the absence of Hr. Bannerman on leave, & . - wag with Colonel Edvtards! ansistance able to locate this copy. As far as Tan auare, Uris is thie only written in- c . forsastion avatlable on Agency relationships with’ subject. Thopo that this will seve your purpose. ’ 3. IT ansune you are avare of tho nature of the opera- tion discussed in the attachuant. viene renee . . } . 4 Depuly Plawe tor (Pr ans) 7 AbLachrent 3-paye memo dialed Uy May 1962, TS-1OU,EE - Meno for the Record ‘= Art)ur Jnmrs Palletti et al - Unrutbortaed Poblication or Use of Comaunications. TOP, SECRET
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