Gl Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 12 ‘13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C: 20003 £5 —SJECKE: | oe anything that you can suggest, in other words, that we can go to the Agency indecies to try to track down the paperwork behind j it if any. my A Wo. You see our overall project was called TAB- That was the code, an international code, Agency and military. And if we called it TAE-6, just like a TAB-7 or TAB-2 in a fot m of documents, people all over the world knew that TAB-S was a certain type program. And most of the time when. it was like this, pure mechanical program, we would just continue calling 1t TAB-6, maybe with a date and an airplane number, but nothing else. Now, sometimes a program would be broken off TAB-6, and we would have a separate code number. This was just an ordinary flight. 0 You say the use of the L-28 was fairly rare. _Woula there be any Air Force records which would enable us to pin down any flight this war or opin it down to one of a few, some- tning like that? A Well, there were two things I think you would find. We usually went to élaborate detail to cover the flight. for | example, if a plane leaves and is not in the air -- if it doesn! land it is presumed lost. Wow, we would put another plane in the air to cover it, one with the actual numbers of the one that was supposed to be in the air. ‘We would put that one in the air from some field where nobody knew it took off. And if the one would pick up the flignt, come in and land, so that from | Gerald R. Ford Library HW 53244 DoclId:32204721 Page 11
q a) kK Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 ~ ao 10 li 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 VEerkEi . | + control towers, air tarffic controllers could show a record of a plane coming in. > Now, this was normal procedure for the people at Sglin, whether the plane was going to Guatemala, or Nicaragua, anything what we called black flight would be covered that way. Q. T would presume that you have got a record of those, or chat it could be available? A. Now, sometimes when the crew would, say, be mercenaries like Air America, they would just take off. And they knew we had them covered in Air Defense Command. And there would he no record at all, nothing, they wouldn't tell anybocy where they were going. We would have to see what Eglin had on its record. But I would think, my personal view would be that they ran this very professionally, and you will find there was a flight. 0, Would that be preserved after 15 years, or be destroyed? A. I say there are two sides of this. The man in the towe at Eglin would just know plane number 1, 2 or 3 was left, and I think it would be dropped from the book with the others, and I think the law requires 90 davs or something like that. The other thing is, the Air Defense Command would have a record, because it is harder to tell the Air Defense Command not to go after a bogey in the sky than to have them go. But again, 15 years is a long record. - Photocopy Gerald R. Ford Liorary HW 53244 DoclId:32204721 Page 12
Vw tb Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S-E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 53244 @ Oo 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 —aEwRET ++ Q, What about on the Agency's side, would you be familiar enough with their records anc records-keeping processes to offer any guidance as to how we might try to run this down. A Well, the Cuban program was a big program that had general approval so lone as only Cubans were involved. And up to the point that the Agency was involved, I think you would find them very professional, I think..you would find that they have records. But to Say what happened after it left the Agency control, then I don't think there would be a record. That is the base program. And of course, I imagine you have heard that from other people too, that you have got to disclaim plausibly. We went so far as to take the decals off the raotors, to take the decals off all the engine parts, to take all the American Language fuels classification symbols, ox whatever, so that tne plane was what we call sanitized. Wow, if that plane went down, everybody would just disclaim entirely that they nad ever even heard of it anywhere. Wiich means that you don't nave any records anywhere, not even the airplane. That is the kinc of mission the thing was. 9 But the pilots would normally at least have been Agency people, and not Cubans, is that right? A In this instance they would be either Agency contract amployees -- not Agency full-time employees, but contract. employees, or Cubans, because that is what we were.doing in Guatenala, we were training them. You would find either one. from Gerald R. Ford Library Docld: 32204721 Page 13
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 v 10 11 le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22 £3 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 micro film. I have a little flickering memory that there was a SECRET “ But in either case they would have been people flying, you . might say, under Agency supervision. We never knew what nationality they were, whether’ they were like Air American pilots, of indeterminate nationality, or whether they were Cuban I would presume, ie 1 look back at it, since th L-28 was very easy to fly, that it was a Cuban crew. 0, Is there anything else you can think of that would give us more lead on running this down, either through the Agency or througn the Air Force or some other suitable source ? A. I have been looking through the New York Times little announcement from Havana. I must admit that it was only a light recollection, and I have been trying to find it: in the New York Times micro film myself’ since I talked with Dan Shore. To date I haven't found it. But that kind of thing -- Havana used to blaze every time they got one of those. And that was one way we knew how far they got sometimes. If you find that, would let me know? 0, A 6, IT certainly will. 0. Aside from this instance, was there any other similar operation, Agency operation that you knew of, similar to the one that appeared to be designed to assassinate a foreign leader or support an assassination attempt upon a foreign leader? A 06° Well, I don't know how deep you go into these subjects. from Gerald R. Ford Library HW 53244) DocId: 32204721 Page 14
Cu 13 ~ Fr Gt Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 LO 11 la 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S_E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 But I know what you might call the anatomy of an assassination doesn't begin with the assassination. If you can remove the government or assist people who are probably going to remove it inevitably, a successful one, anc not assassination -- there are a number of those called coup d é@tats. There were quite a few of those things where, for many reasons, the Agency would be keéping in touch with a group who were not in power, but who, with the run of events, or with a little assistance, or even in some cases up to the point where if the man doesn't leave he may be killed -- he doesn't have much choice ~~ sure, the Agency was involved in that, there has been a record of that for years. Q What specific one do you have in mind? t A, I think one that is pretty clear is that over a period of time the Agency worked rather diligently with General Rene Barrientos in Bolivia when he made his move. Dr. Victor Paz Estenssoro, who was President of Bolivia left. So there was no assassination, he took over. The Agency for a long time had worked with Barrientos. Now, I doubt if the Agency ever got to the point with any of them where they said, if he doesn't go by tomorrow we will have to shoot that quy, because events roll up, you see. Another case where this kind of evelopment took place was one removed from Trujillo -- I believe @rajillo was followed by Juan Boscit -- it might have been Bleager -- but I Ss Photocopy , from : Gerald R. Ford Library HW 53244 DoclId:32204721 Page 15
Phone {Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 53244 ‘cb 14 Gt 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 Le 23 24 Ae) him. He made a mistake. And when he realized that he went in think Juan Bosch. Juan Bosch, I recollect, was replaced bv Donald Reid Kabaral. Now, Kabaral was in my office in the Pentagon at about 7:09 o'clock in the evening the day before he became President of the Dominican Republic. Now, the only -yeason he was there was because somebody in the Agency sent him there. And we gave him a little bit of help that he needed. We took an Eastern Airlines plane out of Washington for San Juan that night, I think at 8:30, and transferred out of San Juan for Santo Domingo. The change of government. took place that night, and he was the President. of the Dominican Republic the next day. And nobody was killed. But that iw really -- you know, the Agency can say, and the government can say, that an assassination is not our £ business. An assassination is when everytning else fails. Or like in the case of Diem, the President of South Vietnan, where the government went to every extreme to persuace him and his brother to go to Europe. Madame Nhu was already in Europe. And they nad brought’ tickets or arranged his flight to Europe, and they nad arranged for him to make a speech anc all that. But he didn't go. Well, what happens when you expose the palace guard like that, they all know that thousands of people hate them. Any palace guard is hated in most cases. And they leave, they run for their own lives. And so when Hr. Diem came back to the palace there was nobody there to protect cr id , Photocopy trom Gerald R. Ford Librazy DocId:322047271 Page 16
. Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 * WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 53244 LO ll 12 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 el 22 23 24 25 ane tunnel, and they found him at the other end of the tunnel, and he was killed. There was no assassination plan. All that talk about the assassination of Diem is by people who don't know the inside. There was no assassination of Diem. But there was @ removal of Diem. And when it didn't work he got assassinated by others. And that was, I think, the reasonably spontaneous. Once another government knows that the support of the CIA, or the support of this government, is being removed, then many, many people are exposed, and they begin to run. Just as we saw in Saigon. And if they don't run, they get killed. So where a lot of people make a mistake is _- and I worked on so darned many of these -- is that you don't start wit! a plan to assassinate, that is what is wrong, that is why the Agency says, no, we don't do that. Now, in that fine sense, I coulda agree with the Agency. But all the rest of the machinery is there. And it gives the people on the outside the initiative to go further. And a lot of time the initiative improves the gun and the bullets after everything else. Assassination has to be treated wisely, or it becomes complete aberration. | MR. GRAY: We will conclude here. | (Whereupon at 4:39 p.m., the interview was concluded. Photocopy ; from —-SECRET Geld R, Ford Litray DoclId:3227047271 Page 17