Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL: 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 ‘10 11 12 13. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 23 24 25 DoclId: $24273493 Page 7 ‘them? TOPSECRET-= tt Senator Tower. Do you plan first to ask them to come to’ testify under oath, then if they refuse only then subpoena Chairman Church. That is correct. Senator Tower. I think that is the best way. Chairman Church. I do, too. We will -not use subpoenas -unless it becomes necessary, but I wanted the Committee to know that we are now at that point and if it becomes necessary I will issue subpoenas in connection with the Huston Plan. In connection with the Post Office mail opening, here again we have a situation where some of the Post Office -employees, I understand, mav have violated criminal. laws and may be subject to possible prosecution. For that reason, in order to get the facts concerning this case, it may be neces~ sary to use sulpoenas to bring them in and testifv. In the Martin Luther King case, we have a similar circum- stance. Would you care to -- Mr. Schwarz. Martin Luther Kind is an illustration of where a man who we have already interviewed, from whom we now need sworn testiriony, has indicated that he would like ta have a subpoena to bring him in. That is going to be another typical situation, pecple who are willing: to ‘cone but wouvid- prefer to have a subpoena. — “Senator Goldwater. Let me ask a question of the Martin Luther Xiny incident. . | TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 Gi raw) k ASS on © 10 ll 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 ‘1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 290 * 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 DoclIa: #2423498 Page 3 ‘Atlantic Citv Democratic Convention in 1964, which may involve inquiry as to whether or not they were being made available to the press but he did not pursue it to find out why the FBI TOP SECRET — 4 What does. that involve? . | Mr. Schwarz. It was the subject of a good deal of ques- tioning of Mr. Katzenbach.on Wednesday. It involves initially a tap on his phone, then a hug, allegedly, in certain hotels and residences in which he was staying. Then a bug at the problems of not only his conversations with people involved in that convention but private conversations. And finally, Senator, it involves the dissemination of the material that was obtained, much of which dealt with his personal life. And the allegation has been made that it was. shown to reporters and other people. | Those four areas. — Senator Goldwater. Could I say sonething off the record? | (Discussion off the record.) | Senator Morgan. r say this for the record. First of all, let me say I agree with Senator Goldwater — with regard to the use of any derogatory information. But from. the testimony of Mr. Katzenbach earlier this week, I ¢rankly was disturbed at the former Attorney General of the United States admitting that he heard reports that the tapes _ - were possessed by the Federal Fureau of Investigation and were being made for members of the press, and that he made an | “TOP SieneT
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 10 11 12 13 14° 15 16 17) 18 19 20 Al 22 235 24 25 King, on his personal life or anything else. If it involved TOP SECRET = = had these tapes or for what purpose or whether they did have them nor not. And so that we ‘will not forget to pursue that matter further. I wanted to sav this for the record: That I think it should be pursued, Martin: Luther King was a : : f controversial leader but there are a lot of controversial leaders in this country, and unless they had some reason to have these tapes, and I think that is the kind of thing that this Committee ought to be concerned about, and I wanted to pursue it with Mr. Katzenbach last week but I thought maybe we ought to go gently until we got all of the information we could and then cone hack to the more difficult parts. Senator Tower. Ny view is I don't care to listen to a tape with derogatory information or material on Martin Luther sone subversive activity or something like that it would be Anne rr cn a. different story, but I think what we need to establish is. whether. or not this was illegally .done and 1 why and by whon,. and all this sort of thing. That is what we want, not the tapés. Chairman Church. I am in agreement with what Senator “Goldwater has said and what Senator Morgan has said. the idea’ “All right. With that in mind, then, I would like to proceed if necessarv with subpoenas to get at the procedures where use in any case which is a matter of our interest. The next case for which subpoenas may be necessary comes TOP SteReT is to.find the illegalities of the procedure. Docld: 3274273495 Page c)
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 _ 10 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Re 25 24 25 * 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 54653 DocId: TOP SECRET 6 by the intriguing name "Tomnv Traveler." I would like our Counsel, Fritz Swarz, to tell us about that. Mr. Swarz. This is an issue really under the agent provocateur question. Mr. Tommy Traveler, who has another name I don't know, was a student ata college in the Midwest who set up a lot of campus .trouble in the late 1970's. It then develped that he was in fact an informer for the FBI.. This is something which is not down there and came to our attention. Chairman Church. Just added to my agenda, I am sorry. Mr. Swarz. He was involved, allegedly invclved in campus activities. It has since been determined that he was connected with the FRI. There is a story of an initial denial, then an ultimate admission. He is sonewhere in Pennsylvania now and is a person we Know will not tak to us withou a subpoena, and the thought here would he, Senator Tower, this would be a little bit of the footnote on the point vou made that we would have in hand a subpoena, go to hin and ask him if he would talk witn us, if he says no, as is the strong information|, ‘then someone would be able to give hima subpoena rather than . having to take the money and take two trips to Pennsylvania and find hin. Senator Hart Of Colorado. "tr. Chairman, is the suggestion) of the staff that that is an isolated phenonena or that Tommy the Traveler represents th effect a case study of a common TOP SECRET practice? . | . . | | 2423496 Page 10
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 12 13 i WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 HW 54653 Docld: 22 23 24 4273493 Page 11 TOP SECRET ~— 4 Chairman Church. We are endeavoring to find that out --_ a starting place with Tommy the Traveler. I believe that is the approach, ‘ Senator Hart of Colorado. If it. appears on preliminary investigations an isolated phenomena, is it the thought of the staff we should pursue it anyway? | Senator Schweiker. Let me say I don't know it is an isolated case. We have a case in Philadelphia where the FBI informant led the draft card raids and burned the draft cards. Senator Hart of Colorado. Are we pursuing this fellow because he is an interesting fellow or represents a tendency or practice? Mr. Miller. A generalization. Chairman Church. That is what we are trying to see, now widespread this practice may be. Senator Goldwater. We have a case out in Arizona where a professor at Arizona State was dismissed and now he charges that the PBE is responsible. I would like to get into that. . Senator Schweiker. I would like to have the Philadelphia case in there too. I would like to know who led the raid. Chairman Church. I wish the Senators would often speak up this way so that the staff could move in the right direction I think th-se are cases that should be investigated to determin how widespread this practice has become. Senator Schweiker. It incidentally was Camden, across fro TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET - - 7 8 1 the City of Philadelphia. / s o || Chairman Church, Yes. 3 3 3 a Senator Schweiker. The same thing. 3 4 Chairman Church. The final item on this agenda today of 5 subpoenas has to do with an organization that was apparently 6 set up by the FBI under the guise of being a subversive ” organization called "Red Flag". What its purposes were are 8 not entirely clear, though apparently it was like fly papers 9 _ to attrack possible subersives. It would be an exercise or 1 possible exercise in entrapment. We don't know hut the state li thinks it needs to be Looked into more carefully, ‘What is ; 12 known is that the person who was engaged, alleqediv engaged pv. zs 13 the FBI to set up this device, now has a post office hox in ae TEXAS» The staff has tracked downthe post. office box but in 1s order to find out where the person himself lives it is - necessary to serve a subpoena on the local post office and then! - _ we can secure that information. 18 ‘So this is just a technical method of proceeding to find . 19 the person himself. | | | 3 | Senator ‘Tower. Where is this in Texas? - ot Chairman Church. “Stafford, Texas. g 29 Mr. Schwarz. Our shot on this subpoena, perhaps we could 3 ; us 23 get through the back door from the post office, but we ought : 24 to be very vigorous using proper procedures ourselves to avoid, 3 95 - doing the things that ‘so other have done. ) + ; a ; i TOP SECRET HW 54653 Docld: 32423498 Page 12
1 2 NN Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 ‘15 16 17 18 19 20 R21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 HW 54653 Docla: 24234965 Page 13 TOP SECRET = = 9 Senator Tower. Let's don‘e us do sqmething illegal. Chairman Church. ‘That is right. And you must. also be mindful of that -- we always move within the proper procedures./ May I have a motion then. I don't need a motion really under the rules, I have advised the Committee. if there is no: objection on the part of any member of the Committee we will proceed to issue subpoenas where necessary in connection with these investigations. Senator Tower. Nuston was before the Arned Services | Committee last year in connection with the Huston Plan. Chairman Church. I think we should report to the Committee that we did have a meeting with the Vice President | and it was a verv plesant meeting and we were very skillfully’ finessed. the Vice President said that he understood why we would be interested in the raw material, the transcripts and other information. He concurred that it would expedite our ~ procedures, he believed with us that the national interest woul be served if we could stay on schedule. | He. would relay our request to the Commission, but thta since the Commission was a creature of the President the request would then have to be relayed to the White House. So we are back on square one. Senator Goldwater. I think he will let us have then. They are trying to get that report out by June Lith. ' Senator Tower. June 6th. eg a Senator Goldwater. I think some of the things he has TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 - . HW 54653 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 23 24 25 DoclTd:32423496 Page 14 giving us the material.if we get a TOP SECRET” = 10 should stay in his own until they are published, because I thin} it is an area we don't want to get into. Chairman Church, What the Commission does with its .information is up to the Commission, but the raw data should then be made available to us. It would greatly expedite our own inquiry. All right, the second item on the agenda is a proposed resolution concerning information from the Internal Revenue Service. Now, this resolution has: heen suggested. to the Committee staff by the Internal Revenue Service. It is in order to expedite their compliance with our requests. There is a pro- vision in the law, one or two provisions in the law, that inhibit the Internal Revenue Service fron furnishing some of ‘the information that we have requested, and they believe that if this were waived for purposes of this inquiry, the Senate inquiry, it would then be helpful to then. Senator Goldwater. What is the nature of the material? lr. Schwarz. We don't want tax returns, Senator. Ve are going to he looking into certain allegations of wiretapping by the Internal Revenue Service, break-ins by the Internal Revenue] Secvice. I don't think in fact that that sort of stuff ought to be covered by a statute that says tax-related material, but it may be, and they have suggested that it would expedite their . _ | 7 resolution like this. It is; . + | { 1 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET) - - 1 S 1 the same resolution in substance that the Watergate Committee z ; , . : 2 i and I think the House Judiciary Committee in the past, I know a - : g 3 the Watergate Committee did, and it} was suggested to us by the 2 4 Commission we don't want to return. |. | 5 Senator Goldwater. In our resolution which created this — 6 group, what if we wanted to get into the operation of the IRs ] harassment not against certain individuals but constant harass- 8 ments. ‘I know if vou once get on the computer list you never 9 get off that list, and I would Likel to know why. 10 Senator Tower. What Alexander | suggested’ here is that he 11 is willing to give us the informatign but he wants to have his , 12 skirts legally cleared hy a Senate tesolution. i 43 | Mr, Miller. Other Committee jurisdiction. 14 Senator Goldwater. Could vou get into the matter. To 15 me it is like wiretapping a lot, where they put you on the | 16 computer and I want to know why andiwhy it is that once a man - gets on that computer he Aever gets off, even though he is 18 never found guilty of anything. It is harassment, harassment, : 19. harassment. | i | g 20 | Chairman Church. I think that|does come within our purviel:. F 21 what we are really concerned about in connection with all of : 22 this information is big brother Government developing in every 3 23 quarter? 24 Senator Schweiker. Abuse of authority. : 95 Chairman Church. And utilization of all kinds of TOP SECRET ‘ i | | , HW. 54653 DBocld:324273499 Page 15 a
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 “HW 54653 10 11 12 13 14 15 16. 17 18 19 20 21 ‘ep 23 24 25 Docta: 2475495 page 16 TOP SECRET body object and have it go on the calendar. TOP SECRET 2 surveillance techniques developing and institutional practices in this country. | Senator Goldwater. I am with you. Chairman Church. ‘All right. Now, I have two questions to ask about this resolution. : - First of all, Bill, does this resolution have to go to another Committee in the Senate before it goes to the floor? Mr. Miller. That would be the usual. Senator Tower. Post G£fice and Civil Service? . Mr.. Miller. If you cleared it with the Chairman you could go right to the floor: with it. | | Chairman Church. Is itr Finance or Post Office and Civil Service? Mr. Miller. “post Office... Senator Tower. ‘This is IRS. This is Finance. Chairman Church Internal Revenue Service is Finance. Mr. Miller. I think you have to check with both Chairmen. But go directly to the floor. Senator ower. hat you could do is, I guess we don't have a jurisdiction to report it out of our Connittee. Y think! you would have to introduce it, Frank; what you could do is have it called up for immediate consideration. and,let some- Chairman Church. Yes, I -think we should clear that with the two Cormitte Chairmer. first. They might prefer to handle core ar ae a cet ee