(180-10116-10104 AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : JFK Assassination System Date: 10/13/20 Identification Form Agency Information HSCA 180-10116-10104 NUMBERED FILES 014697 TTT ‘ ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE: ‘DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : _ DOCUMENT TYPE: CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : _ CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW: COMMENTS : v9.1 HW 50955 Docld:32266459 Page 1 OPENING CRITERIA : Document Information HSCA SPRAGUE, RICHARD BUSINESS MEETING 12/09/1976 50 CIA HSCA, ADMINISTRATION FBI | CONSPIRACY THEORY, SINGLE BULLET TRANSCRIPT Unclassified 3 Redact 09/27/1996 . MLK material withdrawn, pp. 386-412, Box 279. ot neni ne
_ AG 0955 EXHCUTIVE SESSION : EXECUTIVE SESSION HOUSE OF REPRESEN TATIVES. | HEARINGS 2, BEFORE THE COMMITTEE | ey on ' SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS ’ Thursday, December 9, 1976 ¥ Washington, D.-¢. Official Reporters to Committées GPO 16—75107-1 EXECUTIVE SESSION Doctld: 32766459 Page 2?
EXECUTIVE SESSION edd * COMMITTEE (cars ane BUSENESS” MEETING / aie ‘Thursday, December 9, 1976 Hypnne, y.SHouse of Representatives, £7] | Se _ nn - Select Committee on Assassinations. |[ a = —, Washington, D. t. a Nemo om committee met at: O: 45 pem., in Koom | PONT Reybum "House - office Building, the Honesabbe Thomas. N. Downing. [fratrnail presiding. foe Present: Representatives Downing (presiding) , Gonzalez, McKinney, Preyer,. Thone, Stokes, Anderson, and Fauntroy. f _ Also Present: “Richard A. sprague, ghiet éounsel and pirector: Thomas Howarth, - Boaget G£ficer, and Donovan L. cay ‘y Chief. desearcher. Anes EXECUTIVE SE sSSION 8 HW 5095 66459 Page 3
~~ oraixman downing. The committee will come to order. ur. Sprague, the next time we have one of these executive meetings, Mr. McKinney made what I think is an’ excellent suggestion + that when we go into executive session. we find some suitable room that we can adjourn to, to carzy on | the executive session, and we won't have this delay. oo oe. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be a great ‘idea to try to have an alternate room to move to. - | Chairman Downing. Now, will everybody in the room not a member of this committee staff identify themselves?’ “Mr. Hutton, E. M. Hutton, the ¢hairman's staff. = Mr. Levin. Jay B. Levin, Congressman Dodd's staff. Ms. Caldwell. Bonnie’ Caldwell, Congressman Gonzalez’ ‘stafe. | | ae os Mr. Burgess. “Quentin Burgess from Congresswoman Yvonne - Burke's office. | Mr. Harvey. Percy Harvey, from Congressman Ford's staff. )-Mr. Spring. Hank Spring, from Mr. McKinney's staff. -.- Chairman Downing. All right. Close the doors... oo Mr. Sprague, suppose you begin your presentation. | 66459. Page 4°
.40/ STATEMENT OF RICHARD A. SPRAGUE, CHIEF COUNSEL AND DIRECTOR | me. Spague. Mr. Chairman, before commence that, may I bring up two other matters, first, on which I would’ Like to get some direction from the committee. As I understand it, there is going to be another: meeting of this committee for purposes, of presentation of the, report that will be submitted to ‘the Congress, this congress. |, Chatman Downing... ‘That. meeting will be next Friday, at. : ba. ‘m., that is the “V7th- of December, at a place | to be. “decided. | | | — McKinney. Mc. Chairman , could we one 1809 of clock? Would. anyboay object? Is it going to be a long ‘meeting? | re rane e Mr. Sprague. I would not think so. oom. McKinney. I find myself in an embarrassing position +t u being ranking member of the Economic “Stabilization. Committee, ‘Bill Moorhead has moved the steel price meetings three ‘times to accommodate the Minority side of the aisle. © Chatman bowning. I certainly have no objection to, ‘Lao re) ‘clock. Anybody else? | aad | “The committee will then meet at 1 so ° "clock. / That is Wea December 17. | Mr. Sprague. What | I “would like to bring, to the attention of the committee, if I may, there is. a “question.
377 “in my ‘mind, as your chief counsel, with regard to the present || ceso1ution that exists concerning the authbity as the base for this committee to operate ‘on. There is in my y opinion a grave question of constitutionality, not with regard to. ‘the ability of the Congress to be investigating, but with | regard to the way in which the resolution that presently — exists is worded. on  Wrrankly, pecause of that, I have seen that no subjpena was issued that was other than what I call a friendly subggena, because I did not want to get in the posture where “someone was attacking - it, “and taking us into court on the 7 mame that. exists. | and whad I am seeking guidance on “ I would like to be able to present to the committee, at the next session, Ca sort of sf préghble to the resolution stating what I r submit ‘would be the appropriate basis for this investigation, aos that ee and when the matter of the constitutionality arises, we care properly and fully bottomed. - But I would not. do. that unless given: such direction by the committee. chairman Downing. Well, I ‘think if any question exists “in your mind as to the constitutionality of the section of ‘the resolution, certainly you should draft a preamble, along wit /a proposed resolution, which will, of course, have to be submitted in the next session of Congress. we. Sprague. At the next session I would Like | :to “present 66459 Page 6:55.
af . 14. AL Do you have any suggestions?" what I think will be a preamble there which I think would. then save this resolution, the wording of it, from subsequent attack. OP ur. Thone. Does this come down to whether or not that resolution directs itself gmexitiver: #2) enough to a legislative purpose? Mr. Sprague. Legislative and oversight purposes, because I think there would be problems the way it is presently worded. ae Mr. Gonzalez. Mr. Chairman, let me give you a little ~ S history, because this is something that bothered me at | the very beginning. ; . . co _. The wording that finally resulted in this resolution — was very hastily. prepared, ‘présented to me by tne plierk of. ‘the Rules Committee. I raised the point immediately, and he oe “said, "This is what T have been ordered to arrange? a Well, there was one ‘sentence that I knew was at first” aoe / blush violative WT "So scratch that out." And I said, "The rest I have my doubts, but my gosh, you “want. ‘this in today, so you can have something to meet on tomorrow." : and that is ‘the way it got submitted. _ Now, I didn't ask him what the history of the drafting. had been when he presented it. ‘But since then, ‘I have been going into that. And I for one would be very grateful if you Ld: 32066459" Page Fo.)
‘the. wording which hese ‘Perhaps we might want to 5a would, because we ye may wish to think of the procedure we nay want to follow on in January. GS) wis was a simple House resolution. We may wish to file another for the sake of having immediate full House consideration, so as to not lose too much time. and. in that respect, T am trying toget the picture from the Parliamentarian. S0 I for one would be very grateful if you would, and we could look it over next week. | | - Chairman Downing. Without objection, counsel is * |) cy directed to draft a preamble and/or a resolution for presenta- tion at the next meeting of the committee. on Mr. McKinney. Mr. Chairman, Congressman Dodd could not be-here today, because he had to go back to Connecticut “He asked me if I would make. sure the counsel. od Keep | in- retained. the “plier manassairtsinists, Of looking into / the ‘othe assassinations. He is not. suggesting we should, but he feels, at least put ia protective hold on “materials pertaining to other political assassinations. ~ Me. Sprague. Mr. Dodd so advised me. And ‘the other = matter that I would want to bring to the atterition. of. ‘the “committee se although we are reviewing it 5 there has been a letter submitted by the Civil Liberties Union in Chicago: i) requesting that we look into what they allege is. “the assassina~ ‘tion of two people of the Black Panthers.
HW 50955 “Decia:3 Gf we. Anderson. Is that the Fred Hampton case? Mr. Sprague. Yes, it is, sir. We are in the process of at least looking that material over. And if I may at the | next session I will at least prepare a summarization with a recommendation to the committee, ~ Chairman Downing. All right. That will be fine. | ur. Sprague. The next housekeeping chore that I~ just want to bring to the attention of the committee is this: It has been suggested that assuming this investigation... . proceeds, and that there are hearings, that they are on ‘such _ a historical note that either we arrange for a videotaping _ “of them,. just the keeping of them as a permanent record, - or make arrangements with the news media, who undoubtedly will be televising them, for obtaining their records. © ame spea “I just throw that out, because I do not know what your ~ an thoughts are on that. Chairman Downing.» Are you talking about a videotaping © .of the entire session? Mr. Sprague. Of what is our public hearings, where witnesses are presented. os Chairman Downing. All right. Mr. Sprague. I.am not making any recommendation. . I “am just bringing it to your attention. Chairman Downing. That is not a matter wé have to resolve “right now. All right. 66459. Page 9°
381 Dy yr. Sprague - Mr. Chairman, with regard to the investiga ‘tion in more detail than we have gone into, I would start. with 83 the Kennedy assassination. It has come to our attention that in the area of the “€inding of the bullet which allegedly went through President "Kennedy and through Governor Connally, the following situation at least had existed: | | . The bullet was found on a stretcher in the Parkland ‘Hospital. The sequence of events was that upon the: ‘shooting, _ ‘the bodies of President Kennedy and Governor connally ‘wate rushed to the Parkland Hospital. President Kennedy wae'on a stretcher wheeled into what is cones frame foo oe “Governor ‘Connally into ‘a room right across from that, a Trauma Room No. 2. " President Kennedy's condition was such that there was nothing further that would or could be done. However, Governor Connally was within a short space of time wheeled out of Seoueeee picauina oom No. 2 down a hallway to an elevator and. up two ar flights to a holding room for subsequent operation. 9°” Now, the stretcher that President Kennedy had been on at some point was taken from frauma Room No. 1, and taken © down this same hallway, and placed against the wall, really ‘just before this elevator that goes from the basement to - “the second floor. sp Sel s 3 pom. HW 50955 -DocId: 39266459
NW 50955 “Docta: 382 g An elevator operator, called an engineer, was given the assignment of operating that elevator on this particular day. That operator took the stretcher of Governor Connally which Mis said somebody had wheeled back there to the elevator after Governor. Connally had been taken to the second floor the ; ‘stretcher, “was brought back to the elevator. . “that operator “said he then took the elevator with the stretcher down ‘to the | basement Floor where President Kennedy's stretcher | was “against “the wall, and the operator said he took the Connally stretcher, | wrcerea “it out and placed 3 it next to: the Kennedy stretcher. | || s° you had, as he testified, “the Kennedy stretcher next ‘to “the wall, outwardly of the Governor Connally stretcher. : ‘That witness. testified before the Warren ‘Commission and he testi- fied that the bullet. he found, which was the bullet ‘that was at least alleged to be this. one bullet xr I think you a remem=— ber the pictures in- terms: of the condition of that bullet a ‘allegedly went through President Kennedy and Governor Connally. That bullet this witness said he found on the stretcher, that: was next to the wall which would be President Kennedy": s. oe ‘stretcher, and there were bloody sheets there. | He so testi- fied before the Warren Commission. Obviously if that testimony in fact is true, it does cre- ate. a problem as to how this bullet which allegedly went. ‘from : ‘Kennedy ‘to Connally ends up. on President Kennedy ' S ‘stretcher. the Warren Commission in their examination of this witness |
‘drew the conclusion that, yes, he did find this bullet, but he was mistaken as to which stretcher he found it on. He. drew that conclusion because in the questioning of that wite ‘ness they describe these stretchers as feretcher 2 A, eretoner 2 and perhaps could Stretcher B have been ina certain posi- ‘tion and the testimony was generally presented. fo reading of it is there is an indication of the wit-— ness. getting confused... In any event, the witness ended ip: saying he was not sure on which intestate 0 “there are other people who said the mass of bloody sheets . ‘were not, on _the Kennedy stretcher ‘against the wall. but on” the Connally stretcher outwards, so the Warren Commission ‘con= -I say ‘this because obviously the question as. to what me por lat where: whose stretcher ‘could be of some importance. Sk ards came forward | and ‘told us that she ‘yas a a ‘atadent: ; nurse there on that particular day along with cnother person ‘she naned as well, and she relates how. they had: been in the - firauna foon No. 1 with President ‘Kennedy and then coming out of aie the hallway to go up this elevator upstairs at a ‘point after Governor Connally had been wheeled out of. ‘Trauma Room _ This lady, another young lady who we have found out where — she is SH unfortunately this gets into locating ‘witnesses; she | is over in Africa somewhere va neither of ‘these | two. people had HW.50955 Docld:3}266459 Page 12°: cluded this bullet had to be found on the Connally stretcher. |
ever been questioned by anybody from the day of the event - until this young lady came forth to us. Yf wer explanation <5 I did ask her, "What is it that moti- |] vatea you to come forth to us after 13 years?" = her response sp and we have talked to her directly, I have as well, and || there is nothing kooky about: this | person si is she frankly thought initially some agency. of law enforcement would get to her at some point because she is on the record as working ‘that day; there is nothing secret, and in the course - of time when nobody did she just kind of felt that guile that |] she t hadn' t said anything, and that has bothered her ever since. | : In any event what she relates: to us is important t from two standpoints, in our review of the thoroughness of. the ine vestigative effort that existed previously, it is certainly uf would say surprising that since the importance of that one. bullet and where it was found becomes such an issue it was an issue even back then “q there would not have been an ~ effort to find out each and every person that was present, at “the hospital who perhaps saw this and interview them for whatever they would say. It does raise some question in terms of thoroughness in the rush to get the prior investigation © “done. She relates as she came down the hallway with her stu- |) dent ‘nurse friend to go to the elevator there was at that woe time only one stretcher, and that was the stretcher next to HW 50954" DocTd: 34266459 Page.23° 1)»
‘to. what the CIA had Publicly said before the Warren commis ‘sion. We brought that former CIA agent Phillips before an executive session of the Kennedy Subcommittee, and it was ‘chaired by Mr. Preyer, and Mr. Thone, and took lr. Phillips’ testimony under oath. ; | | - Y me substance of the testimony by Mr. Phillips a and. we have the transcript; it is available ma is as follows... This could perhaps be of sone importance. Mr. Phillips said that prior to the assassination of President Kennedy the cra main- tained a surveillance operation in Mexico City of: the Cuban . and Russian frvassies. “The unit that was responsible for. surveillance of knowing what was going on in the cuban Embassy Manel was headed by Mr. Phillips, a Mr. Maitorbe- was responsible for Aenel - knowing what was going on in: ‘the Soviet Embassy, Newreike be~ | ing a CIA agent. In addition, the CIA’ maintained a wiretap operation | and. P|] they were wiretapping what. calls were coming into the ‘Cuban and Russian £ibassies, and they also had bugs in the ‘Cuban “Embassy and | were picking up some conversations in the ‘Cuban Babassy. -The- way in which ‘this operation ran was that the inter- cept unit, if I can use that word, would monitor these, Convers | sations. they would have a recording going on ‘of these conver-. ‘Sations going into the Cuban and Russian Ambassies.. ‘There would i be a person listening to them as they were being recorded, NW-90995 “Dacia: 2266459 -Page. 15.
that after these conversations were recorded they were then taken to either a Spanish or a Russian interpretor who would then translate these recordings and they would be typed up. Y opon being typed up, these transcripts would be. “sent to a Win Mr. Mie Scott, who though not in a technical sense in command of that operation ‘in fact was the person who ‘was running the CIA operation in Mexico. Mr. Scott would» review ‘the: trans “script and if it was” a wiretap of a call. into. the ‘Russian: nel, eo Embassy, he would forward that transcript to’ “Mr. M malo, it were a . wiretap going into’ the Cuban. Embassy, he would ‘send that to Mr. Phillips. If it involved both, it would go. from Hane.|s Phillips to Meareske, or vice versa. 2 The procedure upon the transcript going to Phillips at the Cuban unit and Manale at the Russian was then to advise other ‘agencies of government, such as the FBI, ‘State Depart- ment, concerning that information if it was. ‘significant. In matters that were more unique, a cablegran would be. Monel prepared by either Mr. sen aes or Mr. Phillips, which would be . routed. back to Mr. Scott, and if he approved it ‘that cablegran would then be sent advising CIA Headquarters in /Nashington as. to ‘that particular intercept, that being done ain. ‘the more a unusual situation. a He also testified that these transcripts, the recordings "thenselves, normally were destroyed not by just a destruc | ‘tion 7. nothing ulterior in that sense -— but. by a reuse of. , aaa A 266459. Page 160000.
these records after they had been transcribed. Glin response to a question, would there not be a périod of time to hold a recording for the transcript to be reviewed and perhaps a decision being made, that there might be a need to. keep that recording itself, Mr. Phillips said, “yee, bat a what. that period of time would be and whether there: was “any ‘formal 0 order, directive, he w was not prepared to ‘say! r sug- “sented te to him, “What if we picked up a conversation in w which someone. was calling and ‘threatening to, say, assassinate a” congressman, would there not be a decision somewhere ‘to hold that tape, you might want to. use that for evidence, naybe to identify a voice or something?" | He said, "Yes, we would." _ What was the criteria that you would use" if, you heard that an “american was trying to get out of the country? “Would that be a matter to 0 keep?" | | we “He was not prepared to say. . In any event, what Mr. Phillips said happened specifically in regard to Oswald was there was an intercept of: “a conversa | tion by oswata to the Russian Embassy, and Oswald was, ‘in fn fact calling from the Cuban Embassy . | Mr. Phillips said ‘that, to the. . best of his recollection Ww and there is no. doubt as = $0 the | first part of this ar one part of that conversation was ‘Oswald | ‘advising the Russians that he wanted to get. out of this coun= ey that he wanted to get to Cuba, and then. to Russia.
Y wr. Phillips stated what I would consider in an unsatis- factory fashion, a rambling fashion, that it was his feeling from the way in which the words appeared in the transcript that Oswald was indicating that the Russians perhaps ought to be talking to him and that they perhaps ought to | ‘give him. some -aid in getting out of the country. I say to you I feel that Mr. Phillips ‘said it without any degree from my standpoint of authority but that this was an attempt to get out. of ‘the: ‘coun- try is clear. Mr. Phillips states that as a result of that and. that. Mane transcript came to him ‘Eirst: and then went on to Mr. Marra a there were two things that he noted, that in this ‘transcript it referred to the | Fact that Oswald was speaking Poor Russian and there were notations typed on here of the poor quality of) the Russian that was being spoken, typed on the transcript, and some other comments. ce ay - Asa result, Phillips testified that a cablegran | was pre- ee - Hanel, | Manel. : ag pared by Mr. Mamraieg signed by Mr. Mes en submitted to: Mee 49 Phillips and signed by Mr. Phillips, to then be’ given ‘to Mr. ag Scott to be sent to CIA Headquarters in Washington Because. or this information put it in a more unusual category. : That cablegran States Mr. Phillips specifically : stated that ‘they had picked up this information that Oswald was. tryh ng - “to get out of the country, seeking a visa to go to Cuba and then on to Russia. That becomes of some significance because - | HW 50955 -Doeld: }P266459 Page 18
390 ~ the cablegram that in fact was sent by the Mexican station to Washington omits that and the cablegram that in fact was: sent from the Mexican station to Washington merely states’ that Oswald was contacting» the Soviet “Embassy and was Anguiring — whether they had received a response to a telegram that. he had sent, whether the’ intercepted messages of. Oswald scaling the Soviet Embassy was his inquiry about a telegram, but” that is in addition to the transcript to which I have made refer— ence o. Ge We have asked Mr. Phillips, "Are you positive ‘that the. cablegram that you prepared was. alerting Washington that this supposed American was trying to get out of the country?" he. said, "Yes,' He is ; absolutely sure as to that. "Do you have any explanation for the cablegran that was | in’ fact sent?" “His response was that it seems to him it “would ‘be Hacts” - of negligence by a number of people ora deliberate decision, by a person not to have that information conveyed. The second aspect of Mr. Phillips’ testimony ‘that is of some signifance i these are areas that: were investigated bring tng “up to date this is what we are doing a in- ‘this ‘caine cable~_ gran that Mr. Phillips, said was ‘prepared was: a description of an anericen seen going: into ‘the Russian Embassy. on ‘the date of this intercept. This description w we thought ‘the liter-- ature has caused numerous problems because it is “conceded by
everybody that the photograph that the CIA used in the descrip- tion is of a person who is not Oswald. The CIA has since said they made a mistake. The person who sae the description: ‘thought this was Oswald. What is important here, however, is ‘that the i of CIA records ma even this transcript, Mr. Phillips! testimony ra is. that the person was not in any way: related. to Oswald going into the Russian Embassy that aay but he-was in the Cuban Embassy ‘and the question has arisen if they are | sending : a. description of the person that day who made that call, why did they give a description which in fact turns out. not to ‘be: an accurate description of somebody: who is entering the. Soviet Embassy when their information is he is. entering the’ Cuban Embassy in which they had a surveillance operation. Gd I did ask Mr. Phillips, “Well, did you make any attempt ~ to ask your People who made the surveillance on “the ‘Cuban Enbassy at that time? What pictures did they take of £ people going into the Cuban Embassy? What were your surveillance re~ ports?" And he said, "No, we did not." -"Why not?" _ He had no response. . '; The sequel to that, of course, is apparently) after the ce assassination when the CIA was asked to furnish what photo- es | graphs they had of Americans entering the Cuban “Embassy « on, that day, the ‘response was that their equipment aia. not work
“ori that day and they have no such photographs. Gf wat we did get back to the fact that under Phillips’ testimony you have a cablegram conveying information. of an American trying to get out of the country. When asked od by us whether the FBI or other authorities were notified as to that. “information, he did not know. In fact, it appears ‘that they were not notified. The information that appears in the @ cable~ gram to Washington, i. e., that Oswald was merely esking about a ‘telegram, that is the extent of | the information that was s con | vevea to the other agencies. — 7 When the CIA responded from Washington’ they: of. course’ alerted » Mexico that Oswald had prior defected to. ‘ia had married a Russian wife. — “And I asked Mr. Phillips. ‘upon - getting that response, "knowing this is an American trying. “to: get out of the country going to Cuba, which it was a a lation of the. law for Americans “to do at that tine, what ane es would ou do?" | He said, "we would commence a surveillance of Oswald.” ag. I said, "Dia you?" | | ar His response was, "No: we didn't." ° omiel 1, why not?" | "Because we got word that Oswald had left Mexico and he was back in: the United States." io “e If this was of sufficient importance, - tying - in this man trying to get out of the ‘country, who is a prior defector, that | ‘ra: 2266459 “Page. 21. oa
you would have commenced a surveillance while he was still-in eral Government. Whexever he was back in the United States || would do whatever was appropriate for them to do," but he american \ was trying to: ‘get out of the country ‘and we “have gotten | access to those’ documents of notification, to the rr, told about this part of the intercept. interviewing Mr. Phillips we dispatched two of our staft to “Mexico to contact the person who was the transcriber, the. - some point to ‘come before this committee and testity, as wet = as) Mr. Phillips, publicly. They have stated. that, yes, they : of it. was in Russian... In fact, the translator says$ ree "aian' t have to translate because it was in English a ll is. the reason my wife took it and typed it, and we dia Mexico, what did you do to alert other agencies of the Fed- they should now commence a surveillance. Gf ue. Phillips said he did not. "Why not?" \ “Because we assumed the other agencies of government conceded that was only. an assumption; they were. told this” the Department of State, and Immigration. None of ‘them were a S What makes the area more complex at the moment, after’ interpreter of the wiretap, and the person who typed it, “who” in fact is the wife of that translator. We —have- interviewed them and they are both available at remember the conversation and they took it down, but. no part,
394 type any notes this thing that the man spoke in poor Rus- ‘sian or any Oe | | | GY There definitely was a part of the transcript that the wife remembers vividly which included Oswald stating that he wanted financial assistance from the Russians to get out of this country. : We have obtained ‘the typewriter that this lady says per- haps. she used in the typing here of the transcript. We went to’ get the documents and submit them to these people, oui people, for them to look at, determine whether these eke ‘transcripts; are these ditterent transeripts. We want ea find out what were the original cablegrams that existed and | 13 || fina out why the change. - 1 might say this in addition. ‘This area is “apparently _ sensitive enough to the CIA that although I have not. yet. peen | cleared, none of our: staff in ‘the security classifications, ‘the CIA ccntacead me and on an ad hoc basis. granted, an imicai— ‘ate. clearance to have me look at what they submitted wens the transcripts of these conversations in their “reports con- cerning the Mexican operation. | 7 ot most say that what appears in their transcripts is” at variance with what Mr. Phillips has said @ and what the: bransiator and typist in Mexico have said in their. transcripts. “There | are + markings about the person speaking in Russian, “regular writings in there of. this being ‘from a - Russian ‘trans- | 2266459 Page .23 0 .
‘lation, which of course would be at variance with what is there. Gs We are investigating this matter. That brings you up to date as to ‘this particular area. Passing on for a moment, we, in the Martin Luther. King: ‘case have. been in touch with a lawyer, - a person who was. for- erly head of the Department of Corrections. in ‘Tennessee who. has advised us of personal conversations he has had with James | Earl Ray where in one of those conversations Ray told” him that when Ray was over in Portugal, Rays pursuant. oars angenente, contacted somebody to get his further instructions as. to what to do, and pursuant to those instructions he was” 3 | aizectea to go on to Belgium to where he was headed when he |], was arrested. Again, these are areas that we are working Ane ge The other area in Dr. King! S case at the moment, it does. appear that a police officer who had been assigned for secur- i ity for Dr. King a had been requested. as a matter of fact: aye by Dr. ne s staff to supply security in Memphis, a named 7 Rea gh was called off the detail just about © fo hours S prior, to the assassination of Dr. King. The stories that we are. ‘obtaining from the various individuals who appear, to. ‘sponsor the calling off are contradictory stories, one story being that” ‘there: is information of a plot to kill Reddigk and ‘therefore. there is. a need. to gets ‘him out for his own security and take
396 him away But the source of that plot, because 4 one of the things we are es to do is “pin down these people if there is a plot to kill readigd, who is the source of that information ‘and see how bona fide this was, or was this merely an attempt pte get the officer away who might have been in.a position ‘to observe and stop something. Past I say, the stories we are getting are conflicting, at the moment and we are investigating back to find out fi in as: much detail as we can to then present them - ina Thee fore ¢ this committee. | | oS oe | I would say in the: main “that represents the limited = amount of investigative work that we are in , the process we doing. a — “2 _ ghatzman, Downing. You did examine the guilty plea of Raye Have you told the, committee about that? ue. Sprague. I believe I “aia, Mr. Chairman, at the earl- — fer presentation. ~ Chairman Downing. Mr. Gonzalez. Meet Gonzalez. The CIA had surveillance on ony ee sies and presumably they would have two sets of ‘conversations |] because he called ‘both, didn’ t he? Did Phillips know, or. “has this been brought out, about the existence. of. two. or = only, the one that he might have known, about? | Ae Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman and Mr. Gonzalez, Mir. Phillips ep knew of" both and as a matter of fact that is ‘one. “of. the ques~ 266459 Page 25
tions that has arisen here, ought there not be two tran- “scripts since there \ were two wiretaps if the call is from —_ the Cuban to the Russian ‘Embassy. Nee. Gonzalez. Apparently they also had some type. of sur-— veillance that was taken, photographs of the people enter- ing and leaving, and I. would assume they matched. ‘Here : is the monitor, and he has ‘the machine going. ‘I guess he would be in contact with whoever was also handling the ‘photo- ‘taking so they would probably oe what would be the chances for an | ‘error ¢ of that nature, “because T I know that the Warren Comimis- sion had been given instructions they were to be picked fron “an individual to be Oswald: and obviously it wasn't Oswald. “ There it would seem to me the question would be, how easy would it be to make that kind of mistake? > ~ ee Sprague. Mr. Chairman and Mr. Gonzalez, one of the — Aanel. Mane [rss “things we want to do is get hold of Mamarke and Mommas wi because they are the ones that gave this description. ‘from. the obvious - incorrect picture. When I say obvious = incor rect picture, you understand it isa picture of someone enter- ing -the Soviet Embassy when the information was Oswald went “into the. Cuban, so that makes no sense. oo Mr. Gonzalez. Phillips doesn! t know who was, operating. ‘the photograph operation? “Mr. Sprague. As far as I recall, he does not.” _. Mr. Gonzalez. is there any way that could be ascertained? MW-50955 DoeTa: 266459 Page 26°
398 Gi wx. Sprague. Yes. We are seeking to identify each and every individual. I may say in another area that slipped, my mind, in dealing with the translator and the typist in Mex- ico, contrary to again what the CIA has indicated at least to- the Warren Commission, not any real knowledge here, nothing that. alerted them, the typist and the translator in Mexico Pe || acknowieagea when they picked up the first intercept that. their CIA contact whom they named to us was alarmed ae sufficiently to say to them this is very important. The = | jnmoment you pick up another intercept we have to know about it, expressing qrave concern about this matter. | es wr. Gonzalez. For years it has been known for ‘instance Il chat the Russians in Mexico have had four or, tive tinee’ the ‘number of personnel - in ‘their gmbassy than, say, ‘the anerican and the ‘British combined. Do the CIA officials know of any . kina of counterintelligence where they might be taking pictures of our people taking pictures of theirs? “Because there has nee no doubt that for years they have had a vast army of personnel, way beyond what the picture is of commercial and other interchange between. Obviously there has been intelli- gence here but the figure is astounding, for our five times |imore. So it would seem perhaps our intelligence efforts could have been outdone in the case of the Russians, _ dete | Would there be any possibility of some transposing there |}of information? HW 50955 > DocTd:4p266459 Page 27°
» 399. Gf ue. Sprague. I just could not say. Mr. McKinney. ‘The typists you talk about, were these || mexican or American citizens, CIA agents or just people? ‘what is their background? Mr. Sprague. The background: The typist is a Mexican and the translator, if I recall, is a former Russian.” | : Mr. McKinney. In other words, is it the CIA practice to ‘hire people like that from a foreign country and not use their “own service? | a ene “Mr. Sprague. I do not. feel qualified: to speak a tae i practice on this point. I am advised that the head of the. Manel a area dealing with the Russian Embassy Mr. Mamas: was / formerly “from, Russia as well. a Mr. McKinney. That was going to be my next ‘question. oe SS Haneda You. said you wanted to talk to Mr. and Mrs. Mameke; is that — correct? Where are they? | oe Me. Sprague. We do not yet know. “Mr. McKinney. The CIA does not’ know? Mr. Sprague. I have not pressed this inquiry. with, them. “Mr. McKinney. Is this one of the areas “you don’ t really : want - to press unless there is a better resolution? mere ll conta be a fringe area? Mr. Sprague. x guess what I want to do is. go over their. “documents in more detail because if they . have ‘eliminated ‘any | documents, if there are materials in there that are contrac’ HW 50955 1 266459. Page 28.0000
Doctda:# 2 7645 a: Life. They make me envious. expert in it. They do say they went into 0 his ‘finances. TT nae have stated the evidence indicates he took a a bus ti to » Mexico. Ire may be of some interest st gh again I am told * that when ae get to. what was it that Oswald said when he was being interrogated, one of the areas he made statements 5 profhbay || untrue is his being in Mexico, raises some question 2 as to his’ feeling of a need to cover up having. even been down: theres Cubans have my address, the Cuban Embassy has it." which 400 dicted by what has been established by witnesses, I want .to- see what is there without going into the substance of the area of inquiry. Wx. McKinney. Did the Warren Commission have: any. knowledge of what Oswald's financial condition was? . I have never seen people, travel around that had less financial resources ain omy RSME, Here i is ‘this man in Mexico. You just. don' t go to Mexico “casually, wander across the ‘border; ‘and how did he | get there? oe Sprague. In this area I only know what I was ad~ vised in the Warren Commission report. I do not feel I am — peer gy Another area that arises in these transcripts: ae a mat- ter of fact is in one of the conversations by» oswala with the. Russian Embassy they asked Oswald, 1, "there can we get ‘in touch with you?" | ana Oswald response is in effect, "T don't know; ‘the i + hy ~*~ raises. some . questions why they would have it and he’ just didn’ t
401 remember or what. We are really at the threshold. one of. our problems is we can only go in to pinpoint some areas and even in doing this it really reemphasizes my point as to the ‘kind of staff to do an adequate job here. Ose q Mr. Mckinney - As far as you can tell from what Phillips said, the CIA made no effort to inform anyone, including the ‘Immigration Service or the guards at the Mexican border, that’ Oswald had left? | “Mr. Sprague. that is fron what we have to this point — : apparently ¢ clear. They made no attempt to notify anyone ne ‘was. out of Mexico and they made no attempt to’ notify ¢ that. ‘this person was seeking | to get out of the country: and go. - cuba and Russia. | | | ‘Mr. McKinney. So they just sort of took down: informa~ Someone hurried ‘tion | about eam who wieorerieciuelan off to Russia, had a Rus- sian wife and said he is going omtsss Mexico so we won't worry about it? oo | | : Mr. Sprague. tt they sent a cablegram in some way. at least alerting Washington this person was trying. to “get, out of the country and changed it to omit that specific informa- ‘tion, whether that was done on anybody's orders or note) - Mr. McKinney. Is anyone still alive? ur. Sprague. Scott is dead. I wouldn't say everybody. I do not know. . Mr. McKinney. In the context. 266459. Page 30.
~ 402 Dh uc. Sprague. I am advised that Memeake and his wife are alive, the typist and translator of course are. There is a “whole raft of people. We have to find out the people in that intercept unit and hear what it is they say occurred. | There isa question in my mind even on the destruction of the tape. Fox example, if this situation was unusual enough to warrant a - cablegram being sent to CIA Headquarters in Washington, would not there at least be a ‘thought to main- tain that tape until you get-a response from Washington? _ These are areas of inquiry. . Mr. McKinney. One last question. 1 wondered. cement! what your timetable was. | Mr. ‘Sprague. I do not mean to. be facetious in response. _ I t think it would be wrong to have Ray feel adMfeels this mo- “nent that he is in the driver's seat and everybody is going to , come scrounging and begging: to him. You know “in the ee Yablonski case they were trying to get me to question tony Boyle right off the bat, if I came to him, "What makes you think: I am going to tell you everything?" ee There isa psychological timing to get to someone. In ny view there are.a couple of things that are important before we ‘get to Ray. I want to be in a much stronger position in. terms of knowledge of activities in terms of the whole ques-.— tion of aliases, the phone calls. a. Second, I am interested in finding out just little tid- . 266459 Page 31...
: 403 bits Exom anybody who may have been contacted, like this. person from the corrections department that we have referred ~Y Finally, and in all good course, Ray has been in. corres- pondence with us. “He has written and we have responded.” Ray “is: represented at the moment by a lawyer named Janes iesar. Il ue was represented by an attorney named Fensterwald, who we did fina. “The appellate courts in Tennessee Have ordered — Lesar to remain in the case, which he is doing. Ray algo has “an investigator, one of the critics of the Warren Commission — named Weisberg, and there is some sort of problem existing W not only between them and us but between Ray and “these people. | ‘Frankly, one of the things - from the, psychological. standpoint, Tam hoping that at some. ‘point Ray kind of does not ‘Gontinue « ‘to have these people representing him and may want co’ be ine itiating some contacts on his part. - | It is a long way to 2 ‘answer, but I can not be Prepare ‘at this point to answer except that a lot more groundwork: has to be laid before we get to that stage. is wert re Mr. McKinney. There is no way at all we can» ever a obtain vo re ; information about what. Ray: told his. Views -teds soot 59 || first attorney 4 soled because that is privileged. ae Mr. Sprague. I am glad you asked that because I ‘apologize, ‘that is another area we should take up. One of the things we | are doing is attempting to get what it is that Ray has: told eens
404, ; “each of his attorneys as well as what information was conveyed, and so forth. As a matter of fact, there are subppenas on each of them at the moment. However, trying to hand out a carrot at the same time, I have been talking with Mr. Ray's present lawyer, Mr. Lesar, with regard to obtaining from: Ray a waiver of attorney-client relationship as to all of his) ‘prior counsel, and if I can get that, I would rather proceed “in that vein. GD) one probabilities are we can still get it because Ray - “in his various legal proceedings has attacked his prior coun- sel and that has probably achieved a waiver’ (Of 5 attorney | client j privilege, but I would rather not get to. that. step, if, _ I could proceed in the first way of. getting this waiver of: 1 . attorney-client relationship. Mr. McKinney. I apologize for taking So long. 2 > Chaizman Downing. Mr. Preyer. “Me. Preyer. I just have two brief factual questions ‘and one general question. You mentioned the CIA. transcripts, documents which you have had a chance to nse eeu and If you : say they differ from those of the translator and from. ‘Mr. Phillips’ recollection. ee ‘s “Do those documents indicate - that Oswald was seeking to get out of the. country? OQ. a oo. Mr. Sprague. Those documents, even their own documents | that are there, indicate that Oswald was attempting to. get, a
|| visa to go" to Cuba and Russia. The part of those documents “that I say has that in part is a Soviet call with Oswald speaking to the Russian Embassy, and it could be a little unclear from the transcript as to who is making the state “ment but it is clear it is referring to Oswald being the cone to 90 out of the country. Dose. Preyer. On the bullet, the two stretchers, Was! “the Warren Commission clear that of the two stretchers against J “the « wall in the basement, one was Kennedy" 1s. stretcher and “one “was Governor Connally's? ‘Tr had a recollection that the eo | “President had remained on the stretcher during the ‘entire time and I didn’ 't recall that was clear in the report. Is it clear of, the two stretchers one was Kennedy! s and one’ was comnat~ “iy? S? 7 | | / Mr. Sprague. I have been advised of that. I have been ah told by a member of the staff who. has read ‘that but I will || check that. | Mr. _ Preyer. I was just wondering generally how. much of “any. of this you thought might go into the report which ze | | guess we will have next week. ; _ Hb oe nant nee oe oo The mention of si~and—a—halé million dedlaxs has made me feel _we ‘should try to put as much strong medicine in ‘that xe~ port a possible. | 'I wonder how much you think of what you have told : us: may ye be addressed to the point where we wouldn' t be compromising |
“they are. theirs. any future leads to put it in the report? Fd ge. Sprague. I recognize what you say. The trouble that each of these matters merits and calls for intensive in- vestigation and I feel that disclosure would be premature at ‘this “point, It would be very difficult when we have yet to be. compar || ing. ‘typing with documents, when the questioner is speaking to Han el, to have this kind of information out. Mr. _ Preyer. So you "probably wouldn't be able to. complete ‘that in one line of this inquiry by anuaryf ae Mr. Sprague. T will try to wrack my prain to see if there can be some allusion without: disclosure, but I am afraid that the allusion that doesn! t disclose doesn' t achieve what. a you. say. aes cs . Hones = Mr. Preyer. I can see the witnesses like the: Boos ‘and so forth might take some time to track down and you || wouldn't want to go into that until you have them. a Mr. Sprague. I also have the additional problem. Io- Mould like to show these transcripts to this typist and to. the translator as well. There are notations there and Tee . would like them to see those notations and see if they say Mr. Preyer. Thank you. ~* Chairman Downing. Mr. Anderson. oy Mr. Anderson. I couldn't be present at the. hearing that 28
“was held I guess a week ago Friday or Saturday because I was .out of the country when Mr. Phillips came in, so I am not aware of how his testimony developed. Did he come in voluntarily ‘before the committee? . Dow ‘Sprague . As a result of a story that t appeared in a Washington Post we immediately. interviewed phillips. “1 “thought ¢ this was merely involving what was reported in the Le || paver as to what someone was orally stating and rT ‘thought owe |f ought to get from him directly what it is he -has to ‘says “what in fact he told us was” not quite as it appeared in the “paper. “Then we thought | we “ought to get what he- said vunader 2 || oath as promptly as possible. Mr. Anderson. He seemed to be . totally cooperative? Me. Sprague. He appeared to be, although T must - ‘say chat I found there was a selective ability to recall and not: recall “auring the questioning process. I had some @ questions at some’ points: as to how forthright he was being with. us. | Mr. Anderson. I am not familiar with what ‘the statutes are. Are there any prohibitions(o en former cra people as t Po what they can or can not disclose to someone ‘Like “yourself . or ‘a committee of Congress with respect to ‘the activities = the | agency for which they once worked? | | | . .Mr. Sprague. I am not ina “position to give e you a. * definitive answer. My belief at the moment is “the: only oe hibition is what they are 2 obligated to pursuant. ‘to a contract a (HW50955 . DobTd:9p266459\ Page 36. - |
“they signed with the CIA. I am advised that the CIA advised ae: Phillips prior to his. responding to our subpgena under ‘oath that he was technically bound by that contract. Mee Phillips chose to appear. and testify anyway. Mr. Thone was 8 very concerned about the CIA’ telling him that he-was technically |] noma by contract. Pye. Gonzalez - May I. interrupt? — , = om the Marchetti case where you actually had a hearing, the court “upheld the CIA. contract. oe Sprague. That is. omy understanding. — Mr. _ Anderson. gust one final question. ‘You have actually seen or someone on ‘the stat has actually. seen the transcript of what the station chiefs got and did send back to. CIA, “fia” quarters in Washington ‘with reference to this | wiretap ‘on. sn vie ‘Oswald conversation between | the Cuban and soviet abassy, the tzanseript! that differs from the e recollection « of ‘the ‘rans | scriber and the interpreter? You have seen “that  ehvetcanr | Mr. Sprague. The way you said it, Mr. ‘Anderson. is ‘not: o quite accurate. What Mr. Scott sent to  minispec yal Af cablegram => -oMr. Anderson. It contained no reference? Mr. Sprague. ‘Right.. He did not at any time senda transcript of the conversation. There are two areas: One is oe ‘the transcript and the other is the cablegram. “Tchave: seen a. | copy of the cablegram that they : say was sent PY. the Mexican:
station to CIA Headquarters in Washington and I have seen what they say are the transcripts of the taped conversation that was picked up. Dee. Anderson. And they are as different as you have — described them? Me. Spréague. oe are. Mr. Anderson. “Both of those documents were turned over to you by CIA? | Mr. Sprague. They | were furnished to me to look at. ‘frankly ¢ did not want b top at that time not having a seri ‘clearance, have them remain in my possession because rT: ‘did. not want to take the chance of Something happening, Ayes: stage or me being accused of any ‘leak or loss of thé aocunents, so I looked at them and had them taken back. } & Mr. Anderson. Thank you. Mr. Gonzalez. One further matter. In the Gonzalez case , the. question w was with réspect to the publication « of Spook’ and this is a congressional subjiena, so we have - an > interest sing situation there i in case there were pressing ‘points. me - Mr. Sprague. I want to say to get to that point, _sec- . ondiiy, that Marchetti case is a different context. That had . to. ‘ao with their enjoining him. from the publication of a book. The | area that might apply here might have to do. with executive orders, but the President of the United States, ait turns out, that: the Executive order. in terms of classification and dis 59 Page 3800 HW 50955"
409-A closure that the CIA operates under was the executive order issue, there is a question as to that limitation, and I ~~ frankly would think that the power of subpgena and investi- gation by this committee overrules that. —G chaicman Downing. Mr. Stokes. Mr. Stokes. Thank. you, Mr. Chairman. es This morning during the presentation, Mr. Sprague, you mentioned to us a rather voluminous file #28. you have. aise . represen Ting an inventory of the Memphis Police ‘Department. rec~ floras | from which you witli. ascertain what records you ultinately, would like to have in. your possession, - 7 Panes reference ¢ to- that Memphis Police record file, “does apo ~ behtaees relate to just ens “aay. of the assassination. and subse- quent investigation or does it cover a period of surveillance of ‘King prior to the assassination? What period « of time sare we je talking about theme in terms of that file in your a posse sion?” Joe So Me Sprague. There are indications here in the “indexing of parts of the files that go into surveillance operations — and Dr. King prior to the assassination as well: as- the: inves-- | tigation thereafter. There are indications of surveitiance action by the Memphis Police as well as the Federal Bureau of. Investigation prior. to the assassination. — | bos There is an appearance here also of a representative of | the Department of Justice being at the Lorraine Motel at the
very same time Dr. King was assassinated, and allegedly it “says they had a meeting with Dr. King, so there is: some | “appearance of information concerning that person being there ana the reasons therefor, which would have existed prior to the assassination as well. How far back in time I can not HW 50955. Deer
23 Decla:3 E6459 Page “ab. ae. uy, Stokes. Have we had any further information or follow- “up with referenne to the historic files that came up at. our ‘by the Memphis police 1 were surveillance materials on Dr. King prior to the assassination. We have not yet Pere further on that particular area, although we are in operation to _defer that to the coming week. ‘ts with some information with reference toa former FBI. agent who gave information, to the type of heavy ne on, Dr. King in the Atlanta area, and in the Memphis sivaa | “and the fact that when he left one jurisdiction he: vas “picked up in the other jurisdiction, et cetera. Have you~ “been able to follow up. on that line of surveillance activity “by the FBI? || previously, of trying to obtain from the House its other “documents that they alreaffaf have on the COINTELPRO operation, “which was the FBI surveillance of Dr. King. “We have not yet succeeded in getting | those documents . — We have learned ; “the names of two other former FBI agents who “were part of | the surveillance of Dr. King, and we are advised they have 410. last executive committee meeting? Mr. Sprague. We have spoken to a police officer who has > advised us that some of the files that have been destroyed Me. Stokes. I think I have just one further question. at our rastfexecutive c committee meeting, you provided | -peltive Mr. Sprague. We are in the process, as I think I said
HW. 50955. Deo 411 information they are desirous of giving us. We have not yet gotten to that. Sf ur. McKinney. Can I interrupt for a moment?» Why are you having so much trouble getting things in the same pigilding we are sitting in right now? Mr. ‘Sprague. Well, the technical side of it is that ‘through the fnairman we have contacted I guess it was ‘the ‘Speaker’ s office. As to the other, we were referred to | ‘the ¢lerk. We were told we would have to een ‘who is in a position of being a representative for the committee = Tt has just been a long drawn-out process. And I may. throw in we “have had the same Phang with regard to the Senate “intelligence area, where we go from. one to the next, cand then ae we go to get ahold of the chief counsel, and we are told he is not going to be back in town for a couple of weeks. Tt. ‘is. ‘that kind of thing. I am not saying we are not ee “get them. But frankly, at this moment it has not been _ breaking my heart that we have not gotten them, because T_ do not know that we can do much about them. We are now getting “in. the process where I would like to get them. Recher than ‘any thought for the committee now, at our next meeting | if we” do not have them and we are in _the process to go ahead then, es would get back to you on that. oS Mr. Stokes. If I “could have just one ucther inguizy
In Light of the lead that you now have that a member of the. ‘Department of Justice was perhaps registered at the same hotel: as Dr. King, have you proceeded to attempt to get ahold of the “| “record of all persons registered at or about that time? Dye. 3 Spra Sprague. Yes. and one (of the other things we are. fod to do is find out, , in the interviewing of witnesses, what interviews existed even of this person, if he wads “allegedly there, and if none, then why none? © o Mr. Stokes. Thank you, Mr; Chairman. " Chairman Downing. Mr. Fauntroy. _ Mr. Pauntroy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. i am interested in the handwriting, or the notes on the transcripts of the conversations in the Kennedy cases ‘Do I understand you to. say that the records which appear - "ih Weihington had notation 4 in handwriting that the subject. “spoke poor Russian? | we Sprague.” That ‘part. is typed in. Me. Fauntroy. Tt was typed in. | - Mr. Sprague. Typed in. On the side there is nenoeettte: “that this is the translation from the Russian,. and that. | . “is in handwriting. | a Mr Anderson. Could I interject at ‘that p point? Does that ‘raise the possibility that we are talking oe - “act about a couple of conversations, one where he ‘spoke : “English and one where he did speak poor Russian? ~ HW 50955 \.botId:34p66459. Page. 43° |
DP ue. Sprague. It certainly raises that possibility. and ‘that is one of the things that we are examining +7 the totality, and whether one is talking about ‘one, and someone else is talking about another. 7 the problem with that is, though, that in looking at me what are the total transcripts, at least the CIA advised me: ‘what they showed, there is nothing there that contoens ‘to: “uhat the people, the typist down in Mexico is saying, from that standpoint.. | a | : Oe Fauntroy. The typist in Mexico indicates that she haa no trouble typing the transcript because what she heard was in English. - “ur. Sprague. That is right. And I might also say, “ih response to Mr. Anderson as well, these two people, this _ ‘translator and typist, state that on all calls to the “Rasen Embassies, they would be the ones to + type and translate -) “there would not have been anyone else. ‘Mr. Fauntroy. May I { P quickly go to the. | King matter?” Do I understand that the index of files available in. Memphis includes both local police records and FBI records of all surveillance undertaken by the FBI in Memphis? | : Mr. Sprague. I cannot say all surveillance. I can only say that the index indicates that there are surveillance - records by FBI and local police here. But I would not™ say. HWA 55 D ass 66459 » Page 44 “ pe
|) that is all that there is. Y pr. Eauntroy. Is there any indication of informants which either nee or the local police had among the SS Consigiin é , Invader Sy Group of young people who had been active in demonstrations and on whom they blamed the violence -in. the first demonstration? Mr. Sprague. I do not’ see anything in the index that’. would indicate that. But we have not yet read and. digested | ‘this material in any detail. All we have done is just go throug and itemize what was there. Mr. Fauntroy. But. there _ is no indication of the source of f what surveillance information “they have on hand? Some 8 Sprague. I cannot even say that, Mr. pauntroy, because we have not read what ‘is there. All. we have done is take what are the items ‘that | appear there. The analysis and reading of itvis. vyet to. be done. T Mr. Fauntroy. — Thank you, Mr. ‘Chairman. 8 Chairman Downing. Mr. ‘Sprague, I would be interested 19 fla in. knowing how you set priorities on your leads. Now, I ‘think is ve an understand the need for immediate investigation of 21 | ane + Phillips, as that broke ‘Suddenly. The bullet: theory is” |Jpn_ important one. But you take the numerous irregularities {jin “each case 7 taking Kennedy for a moment now. ‘There is *. . information that there were two rifles in the Texas | Depository, nd. that there» isa deputy down there someplace in » Dallas
50955 © ‘that saw the other rifle. Have you got a list of irregularities -and then you have a list of priorities? Just how do you ™ work it? Mr. Sprague. Well, the basic approach Wr and of. course vagain I have to repeat aT the basic investigation’ here cannot ; set underway until we get the staff to do the job. In ‘the interim, it is finding out all of. the material . that exists and where it exists. That seems to me to be one of the first stone Jp wnat investigative reports there ave, where are they, what is there, so that something doesn! ite ic ‘then disappear. And that is one of the essentials that I think have to be undertaken and is being undertaken. — . f 7 { “To the extent that we , get some matters of information 77 Phillips, I think we would be derelict in waiting there. The nurse and the Parkland bullet, she contacted us. I do not ‘thinks as a matter of fact, I could not very well say to her, "Thank you for the call, we will see you sfx months from now." So I think that calls for that kind of immediate response. — And I may say the person with the information on ‘Dr. King: was someone who contacted us, willing to give this ‘information, ‘Again, I think we have an obligation there to respond _ ae “immediately. T don't think I should say, "We will get to you ‘a month from now. “But aside “from these areas that I call of immediacy, Tr do. not want to see us jumping off and just being: Like, a- little (d:39b66459 "Page 46°
416 jack-in-the-box jumping to any stimuli that occurs, because , “somebody in the Press wants to push a button here, someorie wants] to push a button there. The real way to proceed is to get . “everything that exists up to now, to know where it is, to: get | it reviewed, analyzed, “every b bit of physical evidence, what ‘are the weaknesses there, where are the avenues that then have “to be explored, where are the witnesses, what witnesses. apparent y “were never followed through on. That seems to me the “approach, And that is the best I can respond. — Wgraixman Rowning., Twas . thinking of. this. 7 _T£ you could prove | ‘Or disprove an irregularity, and’ “then perhaps make that public, to not only show ‘the igrican ae ‘people # that you are making progress, but show the. Congress |] that. you are making progress ;} is chat-possible?. For “instance, if you came e up with startling news, "Yes, indeed, ther were two rifles in that Texas Depository" a I don' t think “you would have any problem with any of those people down von tne fioor. On the other hand, if you came up. with only one rifle in the bepository, then we would go on to the next. lone. Mes Sprague. The problem there, Mr. Chairman, if Too a may ‘say va I am conscious of what you are saying. ‘Tguess: in “trying to Keep this at a professional tone, and. do. a |] tnorougn job, just like I have felt it is not “Up. to» me to. give « any, “fictitious or padded figures + 1 I really don" t even | H¥-50955. Docid:34p66459 Page 47° 6°.
want to be in a posture of pump priming with the Congress. I want to do a thorough job. Yt think in the long run the evaluation and the analysis of what this committee does a because I think it is ‘going to be examined with a fine tooth comb, as. it ought to |] be + => ought not even to be tarnished with ‘the thought ‘that | we just went out and shot in and tried to create ‘something for .an immediate effect. T ques that is my best respdnse. “Mr. Ereyer. Would ‘the gentleman yield? | twas = wondering on one point along that line, which would not be sensationalizing it, but which you have given ‘some ‘bubstance “to. here, that could be made ina report, is the inconpleteness of the other investigation. You have mentioned the two _student nurses who had not een seen by any investigator. : ‘And I understand these transiatozs *- in Mexico, the ones who |i eransiated the intercept, have never been talked to. by | _ anyone. | Mr. Sprague. That is correct. “Mr. Preyer. Which is a rather startling commentary on the quality of the investigation. | : | "Mr, Sprague. Mr. Preyer, isn't that amazing, that © ‘even ‘the CIA, with the questions. that have been raised about their. own ‘transcript, have never themselves gone back | to the primary source as to who did it. That I rind se" amazing.
418 Dux. Anderson. Mr. Chairman, following, I think, the trend of your question, and also Mr. Preyer's thought, and in my question I betray my ignorance of computer technology GF is it possible, because you will have some computer capability, as I understand it, tied into the House computer, to: program a computer in such a way that you can somehow highlight © | ‘and pinpoint the discrepancies that admittedly do exten the papers that are now extant on this whole investigation, both investigations? | | oes oe Mr. Sprague. Yes, Mr. Anderson. “Mr. Anderson. Is that one way of proceeding, 4 in. which “you could rather quickly. highlight a whole series of: things that are questionable, and that deserve the amount of: time and. money [ana attention that will be given in this investigation? | Mr. Sprague. It isa way of proceeding. AS a matter of fact, that is one of the reasons we are going to be using the computer. It is broader based. In fact, it could be . doing exactly that in terms of discrepancies and ‘corrcbovation- It. works both ways. The problem at the moment is it would be impossible in the time frame between now and frankly ‘the {ena of this year to be able to program and do that. oe Mr, Gonzalez. Also financially, isn't ee “Mr. Sprague. Oh, yes. We do not even have the = © money. oo Mr. Gonzalez. You don't have the $100,000 for that. AW. 50955. “Dold: "3 dbesass ‘Page 49 03:
from now to March,™*or now ‘to June’ It is problem enough. ‘The other would make it impossible. the-ether—woutd—makes a|| J gnaixman Downing. Okay. Any further questions of this , || witness? TE not, the committee is adjourned, and we will meet ‘again on Friday, December 17, at the call of the Chair. vey fitnereupon, at 4:25 patedroede p.m., the committee adjourned to reconvene on Friday, December 17, at. the call ‘of the Chair -]