13-00000 TO “3 FROM |: SUBJECT : RECEIVED: Mike | and Mr. Halpern have testified that in response to a / request by Attorney~General Robert Kennedy, the Agency. _ asSigned an officer to establish contacts with the under- - world to:look for possible assets for use against Castro. Sam Halpern says. the officer was Charles Ford who used the name, Rocky Siscalini. Madigan wants any information we have on this and- would like te: intérview the Agency officer. Comments: Fe spe nee ae ot Cetann + enemas emo ete i mamel -§SC/HSC Request we, ~ SECRET Review Staff:. 75/2723 Date 28 August 1975 CIA Task Force The Review Staff, Waltet Elder “ Hy, See Niey— Date. oe Time ° Madigan, SSC staff, reports that Mr. Helms -_ ~ a $SC/DCI - xX A/DDA_|_X, | CERRET
13-00000 . i -INPERVIEW FORM NAME: FORD, Charles  PELEPHONE” = ALIAS (= ee OTR OFFICE _ OFFICE. APPROVAL _ a Signature EST DATE OF INTERVIEW 18 Sept 75 --  TIMEI120-1315 -.LOCATION OF INTERVIEW." Carrol Arms TRANSPORTATION REQUIRED: YES . NO _~ FROM HEADQUARTERS . | —Ceime) — a OTHER. | | “INTERVIEWED BY: | Postal, Gordon Rhea, Rhett Dawson, | Fred Baron, Robert Kelly. = be £. ; Cuban Operations -*Task Force W - & “SUBJECT. . “Assassination of Castro - Mafia connections. ® COMMENTS: , Under oath. This was second meeting. Attached. — MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD:
13-00000 Interview by Senate Committee Investigators Director of Training , | . Lo | - D2P co an 3245 19 September 1975 DIR | | a | Chief, Division D L _ ps La 7B-44 Hqs. | | | rays Assistant to the Director , _— ho oa 5 ke 3 GF
13-00000 CONFIDENTIAL , - 19 September 1975 a3 " MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD SUBJECT: Interview by Senate Cormittee Investigators | 1. On Thursday, 18 Septeaher 1975, I was interviewed for the second _time by investigators from the Senate Comittee. The interview lasted from . Building. ‘approximately 11:20 a.m. until 1:15 Dem. My testimony was recorded and will be transcribed. When the transcription is ready I will be required to read it and swear to the truthfulness of the statements I made. Under ordinary circumstances, 2 Senator would have been present to swear me in at this in- terview. However, because of the televised public hearings, no Senators were available. An unidentified wonsn operated the equipment which consisted of a ‘Sony casette recorder ami dictaphone casette recorder. The primary questioning was by Mr. Postal and | Mr. Gordon Rhea, the same investigators with whom I spoke on the earlier occassion. At one point or another during the proceedings three other men joined us for various periods of time. Mr.. Rhott Dawson appeared shortly after the interview began and remained for about en hour. Hr. Fred- Behren (I can't vouch for the spelling) arrived after about half an hour and reuained for approxinately twenty minutes, having received a phone call which _ took him sway. Mr. bob Kelly. arrived shortly after Mr. Behren and stayed for about 10 minutes loncer than Mr. Behren. The interview was conducted in a room in the Carroll Arss a former hotel across the street from the Senate Office Rae a0 2. The neeting begat with a reninder that I could have an attorney present and that I could refuse to answer any question which might tend to incriminate mea. I was asked to describe in general terms my work with CIA. I told them that I joined in 1949; that I was and am now a member of the Office of Training; that in 1960 or thereabouts I had a short tour of duty with the Economic Action -Group in the DOP, and that I went directly from that assignment to HY/4 in _.. September of 1961. 3. Iwas asked to recall ny major activities while with the Cuban operation and I did so. I reported that my first assignment was the handling of a Cuban agent, one we were using to build a nucleus of an organization for eventual operations into Cuba. I identified this man as Mré$f__|(Mr. Rhea, having heard my description of this activity at our earlier session, did not pursue this matter F any further). “9
13-00000 A . CONFIDENTIAL 4 The investigators were interested in when I was. assigned the code name Fiscalini; the circumstances under which the name was assigmed, and who had assigned it. I toldthem I had seon a Xerox copy of the memorandua (I saw this during a mecting with Lill Sturbits. last Friday in Bill's office) .which requested that identification in the name of Fiscalini be assigned to me. Y explained the circumstances, which Mr. Postal and Mr. Rhea had heard at our earlicr meeting, and said that I thought the date was the end of }fuarch, 1962. The circumstances involved a contact by a New York lawyer, thru the Department of Justice, concerning a client who had access to Cuba and wanted to visit Castro to put in a special plea on behalf of the Bay of Pigs prisonors. I identified the individual concerned (I still can't renonber his name} as the manager of the Teresa Hotel in New York. I did not identify the lawyer and was not asked for his name. I identified a man I met at a second mecting in New York as "Bubbles" Abdallah. I explained that the latter individual pro- posed to accompany the manager of the Teresa to Cuba, the manager being an  iderly gentlanan with sone “difficulty in walking. I explained to the investi- gators that I had no further contacts with these people after I discovered that | Abdallah was wanted, or under indictment - I forget which - by Texas authorities — for smuggling drugs fram Mexico. Mr. Robert Kelly was clearly interested in pursuing the matter of who assigned my "Code Name."" I indicated that the docu- Inentation that I received came from the Office of Security but that I did not kn©W whether that Office selected the name or not. - 5. We went over again the story of my contact with a Canadian named ‘Joe" (I know this man's last nane but have not been asked for it and have not volun- teered it). I described one meeting and a telephone call involving Joe. In the meeting he claimed that he could travel back and forth from Canada to Cuba; revealed to me that he was interested in starting a smucegling activity involving zoods on the prostribed list; that he wanted United States citizenship and a great deal of money in exchange for allowing us to send materials or tamper with sone of the shipments if we. could get the proscribed goods to Canada. I explained to the investigators that my interest lay in the fact that Joe claimed he could speak with Che Guevara and that I had attempted to get Joe to serve as a means of conmmmication between us and Che, which Joe refused to do. As for the tele-. phone call, I:.told them that when Joe returned from his trip to Cuba he called to say that big things were going on in Cuba and we should meet right away. Being aware that at that point we in the Agency were deep into what would later be called the Cuban Missile Crisis, I told Joe I could not see him and that we probably already knew what he had to tell me. That was the last I heard of Joe. 6. We spent a great: deal of time going over ny meetings with the Attorney General and his interest in a saall group of Cubans who claimed to have supporters in Cuba ready to create an uprising in Santiazo Province, This is the case de~ . scribed in paragraph 3 of my earlier memorandim. The investigators were quite interested in the identity of the man whom I saw at the request of theAttorney General. I went over this again in as much detail ‘as I could renember but with- out being able to recall who this man was. I was asked if I could describe the | CONFIDENTIAE
13-00000 ws | ‘CONFIDENTIAL man and I said that I recalled hin as a fairly tall man of average build with black hair, black eyebrows and glasses. Of considerable interest. is the fact that perhans 15 to 20 minutes later I was shown an 3 X 10 glossy photograph of several people walking in front of what appeared to be 2 public building and. .was asked whether I could identify any of the people ia the picture. I could ot. Mr. Postal pointed to tho central figure and asked if I could identify hin. I said I could not. (The picture was of a man probably in his mid-sixtics with flowing white hair - somewhat on the order of Senator Keating - a large down- curving nose, white, straight eye brows beiind dark glasses, a somewhat Lined, puffy face, and a ‘slightly. receding forchead accentuated by the fact that his hair was combed straight from front to back. The man was wearing a dark blue or black suit, and one man appeared to be accompany ing him to his left and Sslishtly. ahead, and another man slightly to his richt and rear. Without hav-~ ing any reference points by which to juduc, ny best guess would be that the — subject was about 5'10" tall. He appeared to be rather heavy, perhaps in the range of 220 pounds. There seemed to be a caption of some sort at the bottom of the picture but this was hidden from my view.) Hr. Postal asked whether the main figure in the photograph could have been the man the Attorney General directed me to see. I replied that,. even allowing for the difference in years, the man in the photograph in no way-resenbled the man I saw on behalf of the Attorney General. 7, Messrs. Postal and Rhea again brought up. the subject of assassination _ and asked whether I had engaged in or had heard mention of, in Task Force W or SAS, discussions on the subject of assassination either in general or specifically with respect to Castro. I told the investigators that the subj ect came up repeatedly when we were speaking with Cubans, many of whom, having been forced to flee Cuba, sincerely wished for Castro's immediate demise. I said that I had never heard of or engaged in conversations with Agency officers about any plan the direct and only aspect of which was the assassination of Fidel Castro. I pointed out that on a number of occasions I dealt with Cubans who wanted to kill Castro, but thet i job was simply to attempt to extract fron these contacts the names of people in Cuba who might be of potential use to us ‘in intellisence operations. I said that I had never engaged in plotting with Cubans regarding assassination but that I had many conversations with Cubans regarding their desire to conduct paramilitary ac tivities which, as a by-product, night well result in Castro's death. I pointed out ewphatically that the Agency's | policy prohibits political assassination. =. 8. Iwas asked if I knew and Nestor Sanchez. I told then ' that I knew them both and that Nestor ami T Shared an office for a short period near the end of my attachment with SAS. I was asked if "AMLASH' meant anything to me and I replied in the negative. This was followed by whether Bill and 3 Nestor had discussed with me or mentioned an operation of -theirs involving a . high level officer of the Cuban governnent, a military man who made frequent trips out of Cuba. Again I ‘could only reply in the negative. I added the juxtaposition of fitt7and Nestor in the context of a a single operation surprised : CONFIDENTIA -
13-00000 "CONFIDENTIAL operations working at collecting foreign intelligence. I was then me inasmuch as I helioved Nestor to have been involved only in psychological asked if the ca ae meant anything to me and I said it did but that all I could say was that it had to do with counterintelligence activities. Mr. “yRhea asked me whether I could say that the "AMOTS" activity was concerned with “contncting Cuban exiles in the Miami area and I indicated that this was my understanding. The subject was not pursucd further. 9. I was asked about ny visit to New Orleans (which I had mentioned during the previous session) and I explained that these two trips were for the purpose of attempting to find ways of establishing chamels of corramication between the exiled Cubans in New Orleans and their friends in Guba. I indicated that I had been able to come up with a very fine prospect, a Cuban, and that I had turned . him over to one of our FI Case Officers. I also said that I had several dis- cussiorswith an American whom I declined to identify under the general ground rule relating to sources of information. Messrs. Postal and Rhea asked if I would respond affirmatively 1£ they were to suggest -some initials which might correspond te the name of my American contact. I agreed to do this but the initials which they mentioned meant nothing. (Unfortunately, I cannot recall then!) I volunteered the initials of my contact,"FJ", and this produced a blank expression on the part of both investigators and a shrug of Mr. Rhea' s shoulders. The final question I was asked was whether I had any knowledge of the "Ponchar- train Operation”. I told thea that I knew where Lake Ponchartrain was, and that's as far as it went. 10. We spent a little time on the subject of General Landsdale. I ad- mitied I had attended one meeting in Gencral Landsdale's office in the Pentagon. I was asked whether anyone else was there and said that I could recall only one name, Cornelius Roosevelt, but that there were two other people at the meeting. In response to a series of questions about what was discussed at that meeting I said that General Landsdale was interested in various paramilitary possibilities amd that my role was limited to giving a quick assessment of whether we had the . agent assets to assist in carrying out the various possible operations that General Landsdalo suggested. 11. Iwas asked whether tho term "Mongoose" meant anything to me and I indicated that it was a general term used to refer to a composite of planned operational activities. I said that I had no hnowledye of any specific activity being planned under this name and further explained that it was possible that sase of my Cuban contacts might have been taken over by other Case Officers for use under 'Mongoose'' but that I had no direct knowledges of such having been done. 2. Nr. Robert Kelly expressed considerable interest in the organization of ‘Task Force W. At one point he asked how many echelons there were between me and Mr. Hels. I told then that I reported to Pill Harvey; that my title was Special Assistant; that Mr. Harvey reported to Hr. liclis; that I frequently received CONFIDENTIAI -
13-00000 “CONFIDENTIAL assignment and reported to Sam Halpern; and that occasionally I undertook ' tasks for Druce Cheever, Harvey's deputy, although these tasks were concerned with the workings of Task Force W and did not involve contact with the Cubans. J was asked if there were any Special Assistant other than me in Task Force ¥ wand I replied that itr. Zogby, C/iil/4 prior to Mr. Harvey's arrival on the scene, had been retained as a member of Task Force W.in an SA status. I said that ‘there may well have been others bocause people would show up froma time to tine for short tours of duty for several ronths or so and then depart to carry on their work elsewhere, but that I could not recall anyone by name at the present tine. - 13. I was asked whether I used the name Fiscalini in circumstances other than those described. I said that I frequently carried identification in that nane and used it on several occasions. I vescribed one occasion which was an amusing one-time contact with no bearing on any item of interest to the comit- tee. The investigator.asked whether I had ever contacted Cubans in Miami and I replied in the negative. . 14. I was asked if I had ever made contacts with people in New York City other than those described. I said that indeed I had but that in one case, al-. though the man in question lived in New York, the meeting took place in Newark, New Jersey. In response to a question I said that the lead was provided by the - Fal. I declined to identify the man involved on the grounds of the sensitivity of his position at that time and the fact that I do not know at present where he ‘ds or what he is doing. (This was the beginning of the unsuccessful ECHO Cpera- tion which should be recorded somewhere in the Task Force W or iMani Station files.) 15. I was asked whether. I had any knowledge of a neeting of the Attorney General and Cuban exile leaders in the summer of 1962. I said that such a meeting would not have been Unusual, in my opinion, but that I had no knowledge. of. such a meeting... I pointed out that it was comson practice among many Cuban leaders to try to acquire the support, or at least the appearance of support, of . U.S. agencies and prominent U.S. political figures. I further stated that. numerous attenpts were made to cet the U.S. to support a Cuban government-in- exile and that I had had one meeting in Washington with a Cuban leader whe was constantly attempting to get us to support him as head of such an arrangement. I identified tiiis man as Mario Garcia-Kohly and added that he was sentenced to prison sone years later for counterfeiting Cuban pesos. The nawe "Kohly’’ ob- ‘viously rang a bell with Mr. Postal as he repeated it aloud in a surprised tone of voice. However, tir. Postal did not pursue the matter. 16. Sore of the other topics which were surfaced in comection with the | above major itans: I was asked whether I knew the following people or recomized the names. (iy responses are summarized in the parentheses and I can't vouch for all the spellings): CONFIDENTIAL,
13-00000 -” CONFIDENTIAI (1) Carlos Teppedino (never heard of hin) (2) Jose Orta (never heard of -him) (3) Sam Giaricana (read about him in newspaper; never met him) (4) Roselli (read about him in the newspaper; never met him) by (5) Trafficante (read about him in newspaper; never met him) e (6) Manuel Artime (a prominent member of Cuban brigade; never met him) (7) Big Jin 0" Connell (heard about him in the newspaper; never met hin) I was asked whether "No Name Key" meant anything to me and I gave a negative response. — - Twas asked if I had visited Chicago in the course of my work ‘and I told. them I had not. ; 17. This is probably the appropriate point to underline my conviction that the main, if not the only, point of concern to the investigators is whether I was directed to sally forth and initiate contact with members of the underwordd in the U.S. and who directed me to do so. Their interest is even more pointedly | ' focussed on whether I had anything to do with the Rosselli, Giancana, et al, ... "operations". Once again, I explained that my job was broader. thancthis’ by. a long shot, and that I was never directed to take the initiative in establishing contacts with the underworld. I said that several, probably no more than five ' or six, of the people with whom I dealt were somewhat ‘'shady" characters, in some cases with recorded run-ins with law enforcement agencies. Charles D. Ford . Chief, Training Services Staff, OTR CONFIDENTIAL >