ew ae aE FE ++ 1 0, What about on the Agency's side, would you be familiar e enough with their records anc records-keeping processes to offer ° llany guidance as to how we might try to run this down. Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 4 the Weil, the Cuban program was a big program that had ) general approval so lone as only Cubans were involved. And up 6 to the point that the Agency was involved, I think you would “i find them very professional, I think you would find that 8 |i they have records. But to Say what happened after it left the 9 |lAgency control, then I don't think there would be a record. 10 what is the base program. And of course, I imagine you have 11 heard that from other people too, ‘that you have got to disclaim 12 plausibly. We went so far as to take the decals off the motors, 13 1 to take the decals off all the engine parts, to taie all the G J E WARD & PAUL 14 || American language fuels classification symbols, or whatever, ‘ 15 i} so that the plane was what we call sanitized. Wow, if that 16 || plane went down, everybody would just disclaim entirely that 17 || they had ever even heard of it anywhere. Which means that you 18 || don't have any records anywhere, not even the airplane. That 19 |} is the kine of mission the thing was. Poi 20 0. But the pilots would normally at least have been Agency 21 | people, and not Cubans, is that right? 22 iy In this instance they would be either Agency contract 23 || employees -- not Agency full-time employees, but contract. 24 employees, or Cubans, because that is what we were.doing in ’ 41G First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 Guatemala, we were training them. You would find either one. trom ; Gerald R. Ford Library HW 53244 DoclId:32105600 Page 13
Gl Phone {Area 202) 544-6000 10 il 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 20 21 Re £0 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 5ut in either case they would have been people flying, you might say, under Agency supervision. We never knew what nationality they were, whether they were like Air American pilots, of indeterminate nationality, or whether they were Cuban I would presume, jf 1 look back at it, since th L-2%3 was very easy to fly, that 1t was a Cuban crew. 2. Is there anything else you can think of that would give us more lead on running this down, either through the Agency or througn the Air Force or some other suitable source ? A, I have been looking through the New York Times micro film. I have a little flickering memory that there was 4 little announcement from Havana. I must admit that it was only a light recollection, and I have been trying to find it in the New York Times micro film myself since I talked with Dan. Shore. To date I haven't found it. But that kind of thing -- Havana used to blaze every time they got one of those. And that was one way we knew how far they got sometimes: If you find that, would let me know? ID A 8 , I certainly will. 0. Aside from this instance, was there any other similar operation, Agency operation that you knew of, similar to the one that appeared to be designed to assassinate a foreign leader or support an assassination attempt upon a foreign leader? AR. ‘Well, I don't know how deep you go into these subjects. from Gerald R. Ford Library HW 53244 Docld:327105600 Page 14
VM Lo Gl! Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 Li 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 But I know what you might call the anatomy of an assassination doesn't begin with the assassination. If you can remove the " government or assist people who are probably going to remove it inevitably, a successftl one, and not assassination -- there are a number of those called coup d états. There were quite a few of those things where, for many reasons, the Agency would be keeping in touch with a group who were not in power, but who, with the run of events, or with a little assistance, or even in some cases up to the point where if the man doesn't leave he may be killed -- he doesn't have much choice -- sure, the Agency was involved in that, there has been a record of that for years. Q What specific one do you have in mind? i A I think'’one that is pretty clear is that over a period of time the Agency worked rather diligently with General Rene Barrientos in Bolivia when he made his move. Dr. Victor Paz Estenssoro, who was President of Bolivia left. So there was no assassination, he took over. The Agency for a long time had worked with Barrientos. Now, I doubt if the Agency ever got to the point with any of them where they said, if he doesn't go by tomorrow we will have to shoot that guy, because events roll up, you see. Another case where this kind of development took place was one removed from Trujillo -- I believe Trujillo was Eollowed: by Juan Boscit -- it might have been Bleager -- Sut I . ; from Gerald R. Ford Library HW 53244 DocId:32105600 Page 15
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 53244 - “eb 14 Gl 10 11 12, 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 Ae) him. He maGe a mistake. And when he realized that’he went in os I- think Juan Bosch. Juan Bosch, I recollect, was replaced by Donald Reid Kaharal. Now, Kabaral was in my office in the Pentagon at about 7:09 o'clock in the evening the day before 4 nh e became President of the Dominican Republic. Now, the only ‘reason he was there was because somebody in the Agency sent him there. And we gave him a little bit of help that he needed. Ue took an Eastern Airlines plane out of Washington for San Juan that night, I think at 8:30, and transferred out of San Juan for Santo Domingo. The change of government. took place that night, and he was the President. of the Dominican Republic the next cay. And nobody was killed. But that iw really -- you know, the Agency can say, and the government can say, that an assassination is not our business. An assassination is when everything else fails. Or like in the case of Diem, the President of South vietnam, where the government went to every extreme to persuade him and his brother to go to Europe. Madame Nhu was already in Europe. And they had brought! tickets er arranged his flidqht to Europe, and they had arranged for him to make a speech ana all that. But he didn't go. Well, what happens when you expose the palace guard like that, they all know that thousands of people hate them. Any palace guard is hated in most cases. And they leave, they run for their own lives. And so when Hr. Diem came back to the palace there was nobody there to protect cr ad . Photocopy S from Gerald R. Fond Library DoclId:32105600 Page 16
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 * LO 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 eal 22 25 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 20 ee tunnel, and they found him at the other end of the tunnel, and he was killed. There was no assassination plan. All that tal about the assasSination of Diem is by people who don't know the inside. There was no assassination of Diem. But there was a removal of Diem. And when it didn't work he got assassinated by others. And that was, I think, the reasonably spontaneous. Once another government knows that the support of the CIA, or the support of this government, is being removed, then many, many people are exposed, and they begin to run. Just as we saw in Saigon. And if they don't run, they get killed. So where a lot of people make a mistake is -- ‘and t worked on so darned many of these -- is that you don't start wit! a plan to assassinate, that is what is wrong, that is why the Agency says, no, we don't do that. Now, in that fine sense, I could agree with the Agency. But all the rest of the machinery is there. And it gives the people on the outside the initiative to go further. And a lot of time the initiative improves the gun and the bullets after everything else. Assassination has to be treated wisely, or it becomes complete aberration. | MR. GRAY: We will conclude here. | (Whereupon at 4:39 p.m., the interview was concluded. Photocopy from Gerald R. Ford Library HW 53244 DoclId:327105600 Page 17