46 iF the general sense, yes, you always tried to find out who it was, and what steps were actually taken, I don't know. Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, by my | : | me a) 4 | question I meant when they made reference to that picture in i 5 7 the cable that was sent to headquarters on October 8th, prior 5 7 to coming up with the conclusion that this picture was 3 > | Oswald, did they attempt to identify every other non-Latin x 1 | wno visitea those embassies? = Hl | Mr. Phillips. Yes, that was pretty standard procedure. . 0 Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to get back and deal with 2 ne another matter that was raised this morning. $ 2 | How soon after the first intercept:didiyouureceive the eS a 13 transscript of Oswald's. conversation? bunt 3 al Mr. Phillips. I don't recall precisely. Generally it. E is | was a matter of -~- they came pretty rapidly. It seems to me, : I the next day ox say within two days, something like that : 7 | was the normal time, but you will. recall. my previous - HI ; : =| testimony that that. transeript concerning his visit. to the in | z ‘7 | Caban embassy only was really important to us after the S | assascination, so I can't recall the date that I first saw fal z2 i Mr. Goldsmith. However, you do recall receiving. that e 25 transcript prior to the time that the cable was sent out, 7 the cable I am referring to, the cable of October 9th, 1963? 2 Mr. Phillips. I am sure I saw it because I read every HW 50955 DocId:32277212 Page 49
7 a, - ee | 47 i | Piece of paper that came from that monitoring establishment . 7 which. was in Spanish; in other words, coming from the Cuban 1 | embassy, so.I am sure that.I saw it. But. I also have the (> 4 | recollection that. it. didn't mean anything to me, Tt am sorry Z 5 to say; until after the assassination. when it was tied in wit 3 5 | previous conversations. | ca g " | ~ (pause) S 7 Mr. Goldsmith. For summary purposes, then, it. would ow S 7 | appear that if standard procedure was. followed, you. would. | : o| have teceived that transcript within a few days of the : ue intercept having been made? im : Mr, Phillips. ves. _ | i & 5 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. And your recollection, I. guess, based | z 14 | both upon. the testimony from November of '76. that you read | : is | this afternoon, and any further. thoughts that, youvhad, is : Z e) that you did in fact receivex:this. transcript prior to the | ‘i 7 | time. that the cable went out October 9th, '63. 7 : 18 | Mr. Phillips. I am sure I must have. I don't recall i : 19 i_ specifically that I dids.. As I explained before, I was in. | ey. doing two. jobs, and Mr. Robert Shaw was the man who really was sort.of the detail man on these cuban operations. at. i | | } i | that. time. | the process in Mexico City of changing from one Job to anothet,, | | i ‘Mr. Goldsmith® You also indicated this morning that. i i | } | your testimony, based upon the transcript, the testimony that | SECRET ARENSON REPORTING 2 COMPGNY, 00. 2 | HW 50955 Donld:322977212 Page 50
REPORTERS BUTELDING , 20024 (202) S5h-2345 c. p. VASETHC TON , Ju, s Saws = = = nm - ~, ant c om nm be xO Om tte OW oy HW 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page 51 -would now like to qualify? - ‘had read in magazines and heard on television. talk shows. and you, and other than that you. never indicated to Mr.- Sprague : i 8 oe Be WF AH om . . , ee : 48 you gave to the Committee in November '76.was based upon information acquired after the assassination.. - 4 Is that an accurate statement, or is that a statement. you a a . ; we fo | Mr. Phillips. Well, what I said, counselor, was. that after that number. of years, there are so many things that I that. sort of thing;. that it sometimes. has. been very difficult | for me, as it continues to bé.today, to remember when. some-. thing comes up about.the Oswald visit. to Mexico whether I. have read. that in the National Inquirer, or whether it is something from, my own memory.. Mr . «Goldsmith. In the specific context of your. testimony before the. Committee in. November of "76, is it accurate to - say that. the only time you ever. indicated to. Mr. Sprague, who | was the lawyer that. was questioning you, that you were basing statement upon after acquired information was. in reférence« . a  . to a quotation. that appeared in a'Washington newspaper quoting co that your testimony before the committee. that day was based, upon after acquired information?. a | | en Is that an accurate summary? , a 7 7 | Mr. Phillips. I think that is accurate.. That. testimony | was preceded the. previous day ~~ I think that testimony was some three and a half hours. It was preceded by a'day of - | - SEPRET ALZERSON REPORTING Eons a woo os! ;
49 | questioning by staff members which lasted I believe six | i hours, and «during that time I may have made some reference, | | 3 | but yes, I didn't. make a great.point. of saying that Iwas telling 4a him things that I might have :.gotten somewhere else. I was try#hig - was. a ‘telegraphic message. ti Ang to. tell. him things that I remembered to the best of my 7 S| ability. . an | | : = 7 | Mr. Goldsmith:. Mr. Phillips, are you certain that. . | 3 [prior to the.10/8, the October 8 cable being sent to CIA 8 y |neadquarters, that you discussed this with in. a i! z mie [Mexico City? By discussed. this, I am referring Specifically | : i to. Oswald's contact with the Soviet. embassy? ; | a = 2] Mr. Phillips. Yes, I believe. we did discuss it.: | C @ : 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember where you were when you | = i+ | discussed it? | | e. 18 Mr. Phillips.. Either | | walked, into my office | | = 18 ‘lor I walked into his office.. I. think it. may have been the | ;  |tatter, and. we discussed -~ Ir believe he. said have. you seen. this : i3 jox vice versa, or I brought up the subject some wayr but. T. 7 = 3 [definitely ‘remember reading it in its. typed draft before it. : < “0 | | Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Are you certain, Mr. Phillips, that at . | i that. time,. which would, be on or. about October 8th, 1963, you i (were in Mexico. city? i ' Mr. Phillips: I left Mexico City at one. time ‘during that [period to go to. the funeral of a nephew who: had been killed - 8 ; dosnson”e pete NG com PAR | gooks L ' 0955 Docld: 32277212 Page 52
i 2 | was at that.time. No, TI. believe Iwas there. I can't be | | sbvotutets positive. I nay fae’ ~~ often we went back and Ga 4 forth tox headquarters for consultation, and I made that trip, | 5 5 | but I don’t remember being out. of Mexico City at that time.. | ' | . | é / Mr. Goldsmith. I would like’ to ask you now to refer to | : ? jes Document No. 11. | | 23 Mr. Phillips. All right, sir. | ui 7 Mr. Goldsmith.. This is a cable to the Mexico City | : 10 | station and others Erom the Director, is that correct? | : . Mr. Phillips. Yes. | | = 32 Mr. Goldsmith. And the date is September 30, '63? | & : iJ Mr. Phillips. I see here something that looks -~- : z ‘8 Mr. Goldsmith. Upper left hand corner, 30. September 163. : a Mr. Phillips. Yes, 30 September '63. | 2 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Without. reading through the entire cable, ; 7 would you please take a look at page 12, “CIA No. 12, and read : what. is written theze. = 7 (Whereupon, the witness. read the document.) ; are Mr. Goldsmith. Michael D. Choaden refers to you, does” 7 lie not? | / Mr. Phillips. Yes, that is I. Mr. Goldsmith. And it indicated that at. least at that. time a: a i pa wh a ga PRP Me ja & “ ue, BY 10 wn AS be A 30 wer} | | in an automobile accident, but I certainly don't recall that it } H |September::30th, you were presently TDY Headquarters. What does iTDY mean? . . ia ALOSRSON & Wee § cy Z2ORTING COMPANY |. (008 ¥> ; HW 50955 Docld:32277212 Page 53_ * ; of
51 Mr. Phillips. Temporary duty. “p> Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. So we know now that September 30th, | | | : | according to this cable; you were “in headquarters. | { © * | Is that correct? es | Z 5 Mr. Phillips. Yes, that's correct, yes. a 6 Mr. Goldsmith. Now, before you indicated that you... a = 7 | erought you were in México City. Do you have any basis for. & g potas able to explain why you thought you were in Mexico s3 City at. that time? - | | = i Mr. Phillips. Only that I don't recall even now why t = i \vas in Headquarters on this TDY.. | a < | : 12 | Mr. Goldsmith .. I only have one copy of the. next document @ : "3 it am going to show you. | | | : < Mr. Preyer.. May I just ask, where is’ headquarters? Is. | : 13 lenae. Wa ‘Washington or a | ; re : Mx. Bhillipalives, #iz, that would be in Washington. 3 7) Mr.. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I only have. one dopy lof this Agency document, so I will have’ the witness read it. VI am referring now to. CIA document 252.. It is not a good jquality copy, but could you try to read to. the Committee - i lenis? ‘section? NS | | a | oo @ rN | Mr. Phillips. Mr. David Phillips, newly assigned chief, i 23 7 [PB room in Ops ~~ that means Cuban operations --. in Mexico: “win arrive 7 October. Eastern Air Lines. for two..days. consultation. i This is 5 to the ‘station in Miami. - ee eee. | SeGi al ost i i 4 | i ALDERSOM REPORTING COMPAR . . : 5 HW 50955 DocId:32277212 Page 54_
82 | Mr. Goldsmith. Right. | | i . 2 | Does that. -- go ahead. | ; | | ‘Mr. Phillips. Not necessary meet. or make’ reservations for! @ | 4 Mexico. Mr. Phillips ETA 9 october on Guest Air Lines. | 3 2 | So this would be a cable from headquarters saying that. I 3 ¢ vas stopping by in. Miami for two" days. g 7 Mr. Goldsmith. “Hy firet question ig,. the cable ‘refers - | S 2 Ito you. in your true name, does it not? | So | : 3 Mr Phillips. Yes. | | ; | | : 1o Mr. Goldsmith. Would thatbe in keeping with Agency | 2 1 brocedure, sending a cable referring to a case officer by his | = 12 true name? | 3 i ; i r é 13 Mr. Phillips. It would be done in. a case like this where 7 3 ein Mexico, of course,. they would know my pseudonym ; and in. | = E 13 headquarters they would know, my pseudonyn, but not necessarily : = 1s in a third station such as Miami. : . ! Mr. Goldsmith.. And my next. question’ is, according to the. § <I 3a 7TH STRELT, ds -— —_e C sO oS ee er od omens nee ; able r. it indicates that your return ain Mexico city was estimated o be October 9th -- - " | ~~ | : os _ - 4 ' Mr. Phillips. Yes. ! atu Mae. . ; cS i Mr... Goldsmith. 1963. pe 2 So it seems. to. indicate that at the very least, from | *' Septenber 30th, "63 until October 9th, 1963, you were ‘not. in = Mexico City. °° i. Mr. Phillips. Tt certainly does... ot re | SEER IET - . ALL QEREON REPORTING COMPARLY, oD KSS HW 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page 55
| 53. 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do. you recall. now where you were at that, y | time? | | | Mr .. Phillips. It was airing ‘this period that I learned i eG | 4 | that I was” going to be shifted from one Job to another and | = 5 | go.-to Cuban operations, so a obviously went. back to. headquarters 5 5 | to discuss Cuban operations, and: on the way stopped because = | Miami was concerned with Cuba; o on the way back. & 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Well, it would seem that’ the more. S Ho ; a ; ; | fundamental question is not even so much do you recall where 0 | you were, but.on what. basis. you. gave. testimony to. the 11 | Committee in. November of "76. and earlier today describing - WVASTALMGTON , ui = 12/] conversation that you had with J] ana thé cable that : & = 12 | was. to be sent out when. in. fact. you’ weren. 't even there. = He = 14 | Mr. Phillips. Yes, it.does. “ ; = & is | Mr. Goldsmith. Is there any way that you. could explain : 2 i . . ! = 1g | that? A 17 ‘Mr. Phillips. - No,. six; I cannot. : a The. only explanation. that I can give is that I was ~ i 7 , ' = 1g | suddenly involved in this Cuban. business..at a. time when. a = 20 | lot was happening, and that when. I. was. asked to testify in. | an 1976, sO many: years later, my recollection of the. events was | i'that. I. was. _involved in Cuban matters; as. indeed Ir would have ‘know -- ‘t dia ‘not recall ‘that I was at headquarters during, = < j (been during that | temporary duty in. headquartérs. rT did not | - i | [that,times Ff 7 | of. Pi gal OMA 2 AKU 020 856 HW 50955 Docld: 32277912 Page 56°
14 vie 54 7 Mr. Goldsmith. So at the very least, the conversation 2 | with never took place: 3 Mr. Phillips. If that, cable went out on the 10th, and ale ‘ : I didn't. -- ~ 3 s Mr. Goldsmith. It went out on the 8thi-- re oe Phillips. On the 8th. g Za | Mr. Goldsmith. Mexico City Station, to headquarters. S ao Mr. Phillips. No, not before it went. I obviously was - : | mistaken. z iG | Mr.Goldsmith. There were also conflicts between your : |i | description of the cables and the cables that we went over = 12 | ents morning». o EY : | Without going over the conflict again, is there a way 2 S| that you can explain the discrepancies? 2 id Mr. Phillips. The best explanation for the discrepancies shave is what I was referring to. this morning saying that “ ar: would like to talk about the. background under which I gave : te [that testimony in 1976, what instigated it, and you said. that ef it would have five minutes later to explain that, and it is, 5 29 |t0. me, the explanation of discrepancies in that. testimony of > Mr. Goldsmith. I think. now might be an appropriate. time — ito give you.a chance to discuss that. Mr. Phillips. All right. | "aS Pe Sen Be oe Clee! ; | : Bat hes Oo At savat a ay SLOSASON RESORTING COMPaEY S0955 Docla: 32277212 Page 457. I retired from the CIA in 1975 to form this organization. |
: Sis 15. 55 + One of. the. things that I did frequently, on a daily basis, was talk. to newspaper people. Our organization is sort of active wm : as a clearing house for the press on. intelligence matters. 2 "| As a former newspaper‘man, ‘I. felt I knew how to talk. to 0 . ' a =  ° | newspaper people, and so I talked to them, and during when a SB | “ 6 | period when. I literally have now. talked to several hundred. S | pewnpnver people, only on two occasions did. I. think that I : 2 || was. taken, and one of them was by an article in the Washington, ™ a J 9 | Post. by Mr. Ron Kessler which came out the day before my a : ’ . = 'C | testimony and was. the reason that’ I was called down to = '! | testify. a Mr. Kessler contacted me. We had a long lunch. We had a second lunch. He talked to me on. the phone a number of times. A number of weeks went py; and he was talking about Mexico city at. the time of the Kennedy assassination, and REPORTERS BULLDING , | i | : s | trying to. get me to tell. him everything he could. I didniht:: it A | realize until after the story came. out, really, or towards: STRECT, SY. oe the very end of my conversations with him, that. apparently Mr. | gna 7TH ‘7 | xessier had talked to two other people who were in. Mexico, a [translator and a secretary, and he. told me that they said that. , Lee Harvey Oswald told the. Soviets. that he wanted his ticket “paid for and he. had: lots of fabulous information to. give. them and this, that and. the other. i When a newspaper man talks long enough, sometimes you ij | j i ‘fina yourself: agreeing with. him on the basis of facts that. | ALDESSON REPORTING COMEANE 0 | “ons 50955 Docld:32277212 Page 58
16. la convenient breaking point. here. \ t 1 ( Mr. Goldsmith. I am. ¥ ‘Mr. Preyer. Would that. suit. you gentlemen?. i> oH 50955 Docld: 32277212 , Page 59 4 We. will take a ten minute recess to vote. at this. ti 56 ‘| don't really exist. For instance, during those conversations 7 | ne sata, well, I. already know the whole story. Here I have a | all. ‘the. documents: TI received: under. the Freedom of Information ag i: Act, the cables and that sort “BE thing. 3 Sy. So I half came away from my conversations with Mr. 1 \ . 3 | eeeer having absorbed some. of the. things that... he was. saying. | 3 " : The second part of that. thing was: that. I hads ca “book that S 4) was about to be published. I was engaged in the. business of 5 ? | trying to make a living by lecturing. I was on television a z © | shows and that sort of thing, and I. don't think there is = Hany question. in. my mind that at that time I tended to perhaps. = 12 | overaramatize a little bit my role. After all, if you write SC G : 13 it a book and spend a. year doing it,. you. hope it will be. sold = | and all that. sort: of thing. : iS| Since that time, although I have continued this public = = | activiey, I have: tried'ito be very ,¢very careful, and I am ° jot especially proud of the accuracy of that testimony, and. : aa I certainly am really surprised to realize that.I was out — = al of town for that period, even though{itrwas stilloon Cuban. 5 matters. That. is the “bést explanation. I can give you, sir. - Mr. Preyer . We have a vote on. the floor, if you are at —
17 57. (A brief recess was taken..). eed Mr. Preyer. The Committee will resume. Mr... Goldsmith... Mr. Phillips we have just. had a brief recess, soifor. purposes of. summarizing, . -I would like to review Sra 3 tb : | 5 § | your last. statement... ~ 7 5 3 | First, we have a situation here. where there are. “conflicts, = 7 | between 4 your’ version. of ‘the cables as described in your ap : 5 | testimony in. 1976 and the. cables we showed you today. We | : ‘| also have conflicts between the transcripts. that. you talked - | : 0 | about,.or the one transcript in particular that. you ‘discussed, 2 i | and those. that we. showed you today, and we have a situation : = s 2 | where you were absent ‘from Mexico City, and yet you told the. | a 13 | Committee(in November of '76 ‘that. you had signed. off on a | 1s | cabte. that. you had had a conversation witH_ | |. and 4 | is | aise that you had in fact. seen. the transcript when you couldn' te | REPORTERS BULEDING, S have seen it until sometime. after that..' , . Nope Pa a, Your explanation I believe’ in part is that. you attributes. il this to a conversation that you had with. a‘ newspaper man, and | role.. Is that an accurate statement? 2 | 17] i = 3 also that before. the. Committee you overdramatized your ~ 7 i not recall, did f say that I. remembered distinctly signing | ® ya 2 Mr. Phillips. I hope that I didn't do it. before the oo . 23 Committee. I think. what. you have said is accurate. I do. ity ae off on. the cable, or that. under” the dircumstances I would? | 50955 Docld:32277212 Page 60°
18 aida a at - 5 8 } i i In any event, I accept what you have said as a valid . 2 | summary of what happened. SS | . | ‘ Mr. Goldsmith. Did anyone.-at the Agency -~ and by Agency | ag $ I am referring to the CIA -- instruct you or ask you to give : 2 s that testimony in November of '76? | i i 2 | Mr. Phillips. Absolutely not. LO 4 2 "| Mr. Goldsmith. Having read that testimony during the . | S 2 | afternoon recess, were there any other parts of it that you ‘ > | found to be untrue? — oe | 2 | ; = 0 | Mr. Phillips. Well, in reading it this afternoon and | ! : ni looking back, I felt that I certainly had exaggerated the — a i ; 2 | extent to which I was pushing and I how know why. | a : ae wasn't there to push him and so forth. But I don't recall | = | any specific thing that was untrue, no. : 13 | . Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, any questions? = le | Mx. Preyer. Mr. Sawyer? | J vy Mr. Sawyer. I'11 pass. | E a Mr. Preyer. Mr. Fithian? a E a | Mr. Fithian. I. have no questions on this part. We are | S | going on with some others.. | | Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, we are. ! e pS yx Mr. Dodd. This is the questioning you are completing | ‘2 | here regarding what we were on this morning, Counselor? Is - ! 4 | chat correct? : 2 Mr .. Goldsmith. Yes. . | HW 50955 DocId:32277212 Page 61_ ae
19 Mr. Dodd. Did you have. any questions, Mr. Chairman, | 2 | that you were going to ask? _ _ | Mr. Preyer. Well, if you have a further area to go. a 4 | into, I will withhold my questions until such time as you may : | E 7 have finished. | 3 7 “Mr. Goldsmith. I do have ‘another areas | g 7 | Mr. Preyer.. I will. withhold at this time: | eS | Mr. Dodd. I will withhold as well.. a ' 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Thank you. 7 : | | : 2 Mr. Phillips, when. you were in. Mexico City in 1963, | : 4 were you at one time Chief of Covert Action? | | = 73 | Mr. Phillips. Yes, I was. | & : 13 Mr. Goldsmith... When? | ; a! Mr. Phillips. From the time of my arrival, which was 7 = 15 | the fall of 1961 untilssometime in 1963. | | z 1 Mr. Goldsmith. .‘ What. does the term "covert. action" mean? : ‘A az Mr. Phillips. — ‘In its. broadest sense, it. is. the propaganda, z 7 political: action type thing. In this case, primarily it 3 : jad to do with cuba. because the. Cuban: embassy-in Mexico City | 5 oO was.a focal point for their propaganda activities, and throughéut Latin America they were. sending couriers through and that ; sort. of thing. . So in effect, as opposed. to. regular. intelligence. operations, running agents and getting information, I was more concerned “a i a : with the media, not.only in Mexico, but in’Latin America; ' ". ho. OER SET i a Bnet abe A i ALUERSON REPORTING COMPANY. - 4 oby SEP 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page 62 —
0 SECRET i ! providing materials for it, and ‘trying to counter Cuban. 2 | inttuence. . | 3 Mr. Goldsmith. So your..major target then was Cuba, is co on Careers { ia ; that correct? eS oo . ; | 5 | Mr. Phillips. “Yes. ‘ 2 : Mr.. Goldsmith. | And your goal would be. to counter Cuban. | s 7 Mr. Phillips. Yes, and part of my job was Soviet influence 3 + |) as well, but it was largely Cuban, some Soviet. a Ho fo Mr. Goldsmith. Understood. : Te Would. you define for the Committee what the term "asset" | : | moan in Agency jargon?. | | es @ A i3 Mr. Phillips... Well, generally speaking -- a lot of : | peopte use different. definitions, but to me an asset. is. E 1s. | someone who isn't necessarily an agent, isn't necessarily 5 i ‘© | on your. payroll, someone who is cooperative with you, someone | : | ; 7 | ro on.a witting basis knows. they are helping you get a. | : 8 | Job done. Sometimes that ean. sort of spill over and. say i = | our assets: include. this agent. who we pay and so forth. 1 S a) - Go often it is used in the sense of someone. who simply | lis either: manipulable or someone who is helping you because : i f | they believe in the. same things that you believe in or. | | that sort of thing, and it can. on. some occasions refer to. | a4 an agent. : 2° Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of consistency, now, if you : BEB gET i )  cupes Be NT cow BW 50955 Doacld: 32277212 Page 63 -
21 ce 61 ; a were working with a journalist -~ this is by way of an example’ -- on a propaganda operation, assuming all this is on a witting level, would. you characterize him aS an agent or “ as. an asset? ees Mr. Phillips: Generally as an.agent. I think it would $a t . es 5 | depend on. the audience you were talking to. If you were 2 at in a group here in Washington with people fron different 3 | genctese you might say we. have. an asset who can. arrange this, : 7 | Put certainly in-house you would be more inclined to say : 0 | "agent" than "asset", but it could be used both ways. : all ' Mr. Goldsmith. How specifically would you carry out a z « [meanest rte For example, if you wanted | oc = i3 | togenerate a particular story, what. ways would you go. about ; 6 | doing thate : is | Mr. Piillips. Well, often the stories you wanted to 2 i = is | generate were. the result of some sort of instructions from. . 17 neadquarters, perhaps just from Mexico, perhaps worldwide, E 1a |joxneve for Latin. ‘amexicay, in which. we. have ‘the. following z 19 | points that we. want to. make, and specifically, you would go : - . 20 yout and you would meet your agent or your asset, but. generally i (Your agent, and say look, what do you think about this, and - ey ew 22 che would usually agree. with you and write, say,. an. editorial <- — ‘story which made that. point. | 43 il . Mr. Goldsmith: Did you. work with your agents. ‘personally 428 jor did you. direct their work. through one of your CIA «=  SEGRET : ALDERSON REPORTING Comeay | Bo pooted | ‘HW 50955 Docld:32277212 Page 64
22 62. ; subordinates? | 3 Mr. Phillips. Ina few’ cases I worked with them personally. 3 However, there were other people who were subordinate who. © 1 | handled more people than I did. = ae Mr. Goldsmith. Well, when you say in a few cases, how 5 4 many? | | g 7 Mr. Phillips. On a regular basis, I think I really | : 3 probably met with about two at a time, perhaps, something like : 3 that, of foreigners, of Mexicans, of foreigners. Then I | : Te might. go out and see an American. who in turn. was. working g 7 | with them, but usually two or three, something like that. Not = i $ 1a | much more. ! a : 1 | Mr. Goldsmith: I am not sure that. I understand the answer. 5 ‘ two or three meaning what, during a particular time period, | : vs a month or a week you might See two or three agents directly? | 3 a Mr. Phillips. I might see them once or twicesa week. | = i ; ‘A 17 | What I am referring to is that I felt that I was the case : a officer for, I was the guy who went out and talked with, say, : 19 3 two or three of these agents at ay time. ! é OO Mr. Goldsmith. So as a matter of routine, you would work i directly with. your agents, on some occasions. On other i occasions you would work through subordinates. 23 Mr. Phillips. Yes. “8 | Mr. Goldsmith. To what extent did you. use one techhique | 25 : more than another? : : ALOE SSE (Oe ee) HW 350955 Bocla: 32277212 Page 65
23 63 Mr. Phillips. I used the -- I did more sort of. management rm than I. did case officer works. That is, Mr. Shaw and someone | | | working with Mr. Shaw would ‘go out to meet people more frequently | than I would. ‘Then. I would. also go. out. and I. would. meet. with $e | an. outside American. who was not! “attached ‘to. the. embassy who { i | | { i ' j | | i | plan what those agents would do at his. direction. But I. would never meet those agents, or very seldom: - oo 2002% (202) S54~-24945- Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of. the Cuban exile organizations — i i i { t D.C, | | | | | | had agents working for. him, and I would meet. with him and | that were in existencé during the time you were in. Mexico. | . City have. representatives. in Mexico City? WASTING ‘FON | Mr. Phillips: Yes, I believe that.all have. representative 13 | an Mexico City. Mr. Goldsmith. And did you use any of them in your. Ray 1 i covert action: “operations? . REPORPERS BUTEDENG ; . Phillips. We had contact with. them and this and- one Us, that and. the ‘other. We used. ‘one. ‘group of Cubans. which. S 4 was not.,. really, SO. much an. exile. - organization but. a. group. of. = = 9 | Cubans who worked together at our airection. . But: in. speaking 5 i of the. ‘different political groups, “at different times from fo Mexicoya’ Lot of them were met. by people there, but: Ir don’ t ‘recall. of any particular group that we worked with on. a Los consistent basis. I. noticed in. one of these. cables. I just read that: ae | had. to do with a groupcalled the. JURE and so forth.. obviously HW 50955 Docld:32277212 Page 66.
HF be tf ’ t th me in H.C. 20024 (202) $6H-2345 a) “a o> POH, WASHING’ , REPORTS - BUT LDENG , } So, st bo nb i) a. i 50955 Doocld: 32377212 Bage 67" 24 64 they had made contact with us... - from Mexico. City.. Lek b Mr. Goldsmith. ‘and you mentioned before that you did work with a specific. group of Cubans. Was that your own developed group? Mr. Phillips. Yes, bécause -- one of the things they did, for instance was they had a reception center: where: people coming .out.of Cuba would be debriefed, and they would meet them just after they. had come out and they would ask. one of telling these people where to go to. find a place ta. stay and this and that and the other. Our primary interest, however, was to gather intelligence from them by: debriefing them. Mr. Goldsmith. While you were in Mexico City, and after the assassination. of the President, did. you ever undertake any propaganda operation that pertained tothe assassination of Mr. Kennedy? | | / , Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that.I did. I recall at | a later date a. message coming out from headquarters which | |! went to a number of stations. which. talked about steps. which; | could be taken to counter the stories going around saying that: the CIA}was involved, but I recall. that as being after But I do not. recall specific. groups that we. worked with ° The sort of cover for the operation. was the humanitarian. | H ; them questions that we prepared for them to..gather information,.
25 65. a left Mexico. I don't recall any such ‘undertaking in. Mexico. 2 | Te could have been, ‘but I don't, think. so. t { Mr. Goldsmith. Okay. After you left Mexico, what. specific propaganda operation a be [. : 3 | were you involved in with regard to the assassination? ‘ 3 5 Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that Iwas. I, do recall 2 7 thatathere. was what. is Known as a book message that went to a : & # | munber of, stations which. said. look, here is another. viewpoint. Jo > | about! the’ ‘stories that. are. ‘going. around. It specifically | o OO 3 : referred: to: Mrs ‘Mark. Lane’.and- said try and do this. a nf Now, y ‘don' ’ ot vais asked ‘this once. in,a. a public debate | = 1 ana : I. believe. TE ithought at: the: time, it. was | | It. was db : 12 more. Likely’ now, I think, when I was: in the : z 4 | and whetwe were: so busy in oe es Ce | zs 7 : is | noted that.message, but. I.am not sure if we did anything about. 2 i | 4 7 Mr. Goldsmith.. Okay. : = 13 While. you were. in Cuba, were you also: involved in. covert. ' : 7 | action as you just. described that. term? . | 5 0 | Mr. Phillips. Yes, I was. ! | - Mr.. Goldsmith. And was. your. job description there similar i Co — a . ot to the. one that-you. just gave us in. Mexico City? | | Mr.. Phillips. No, it Was not. | a The reason. was that when I wehttto -~ and I was’ in Cuba. : : are 22 | on. two, occasions. The first '-- on the first occasion I was» ! BW 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page 66 .
26 66 i there as a staff officer of the CIA, under cover, using the | revolutionary groups, such as students and labor and that sort: of thing, but not political groups. 2 | cover of my lectures. I had been lecturing on Latin America : >| previously, and so I was a covert action officer then. | a 4 I returned to Cuba in ‘1958% after having resigned from | 3 7 the Agency, to establish a public relations firm. I was going| : 4 | to make a million dollars type thing. I did. retain; however, | 5 4 an association with the Agency because they asked. me if I S 7 would work on a contract basis, and they gave me a much - | smaller amount. of money, and I worked. However, 1 concentrated a z= 7 I didn't do the -- the covert action was. almost. purely | : u propaganda type work and working with groups that weren't | | | BUTLDTNG, re a id Mr. Goldsmith. During the time that: you were in.«Cuba : Is did you ever use the operational alias Mr. Abbott? : | = rat ‘Mr. Phillips. I think. I -- that sounds familiar. I. : ; v7 | might very well have used that. , : ce Mr. Goldsmith. And while you were in Cuba, did you tend : a to have more direct personal contact with your agents or | S 2a assets than you did in Mexico City? : a2 Mr. Phillips. I would say less, because it seéms to me. | <3 ! there were a lot less agents. : 23 Mr. Goldsmith. But on a relative basis, did you tend to. * have more -~ | | 25 Mr. Phillips. The first time, when I was in Chile, 1955, i ¥ sD NE aa & WW 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page 69
a 67 | 156, more or iess: the . ‘same; the second time greatly reduced. : | Mr. "Goldsmith. You just. said Chile. You mean Cuba? 2 Mr. “Phillips. I ineantCuba; of course. 4 | _ The second time greatly reducedébecause that was when I 3 was starting a public relations. firm and was only spending | 5] litexally part. time on that. | Mr. Goldsmith. While you were in Cuba in. I believe 1958. | oo through. 1960; was it, did you ever start spending full time 20024 (202) S5n~2905 activity on covert action operations? | Ly Ls. Phillips. In. the sense. that I was working, yes, VASHTHOTON , because. the public relations business went out of -- there was ; a no public relations business, so when I. was -- before I a Lo 3 12 | left:Cuba, there simply was none of that.. So any work I did 2 12 [was for the CIA, but it wasn't. full time. | 2 i S is} Mr. Goldsmith. What. happened to youy agents. in Cuba _ | : ls | after. you left, do you know? _ 2 a 7 Mr’. Phillips. I think generally the answer is. that‘ they | : ‘a | went into exiles. | ! = 9 | | ovr, Goldsmith. So most of them went to the States? © | 5 20 | Mr. Phillips. Yes, I would guess so. : Mr. Goldsmith: And did you ever use any of them again? | Mr. Phillips. Yes. Now, wait a minute. I certainly used - 23 some of my assets, people I had’known there, especially people | who were in the newspaper business, and who then I would : 23 | approach. -- I. approached in Miami at the time of preparations | E70. 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page TO
28. 68 | for the Bay of Pigs, and saw to it that. they got. out exile | il i 2 editions. of their newspapers... | | lie a Mr. Goldsmith’:..Were any of these assets involved in ' @ 4 || propaganda activities pertaining to. the assassination? a Sj Mr. Phillips. Not. that I recall. 8. : | “ oy Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know a man. known Salvatore Diaz | a 7 | vexson? Salvatore Diaz.. Verson? | = | = 7 I. believe fe was a Cuban journalist.. = is s.F Mr. Phillips. I don't recall. I might. have, ‘but I don! | a [- . i Hi ~ ora | = ‘0 | yecall him. as A S | i = ny Mr. Goldsmith. pia you ever have any operationalt:involve- 2 l ~ "2 | mene. with him for the. CIA? S o a iH Mr. Phillips. ° fT knew, So: many Cuban newspaper men, I-was | _ * | associated with | a newspaper there in. the sense that I wrote a ss 4 . Set fat | © ‘3 | column for ite I knew a lot of. them. I. was in. the public = iS |yelations business, or.I tried to when I first got there. That, | | | 7 fae | “ iI might very well have but I don't recall. any specifics of = '3 late, ; n i 7 -— nt ; = 9 | Mr. Goldsmith. So you might. have had operational activity. 2 i , , OS lor involvement with him but you don't recall the specifics. 4 Mr. Phillips.. I might have, yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Turning to your -- Mr. Phillips. I am sorry, what was the matrinymic, the - ‘third 1 name? Mr. Goldsmith. Verson, V-e-r-s~-o-n. “1 HW 50955 “Docld: 32277212 ‘Page 7i
29 69 | Mr. Phillips. The name seems familiar to me, but I * | don't. recall the operational activity. 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. He was an. individual who was the source So * of a story that Oswald was séen. with Sylvia Duran and a Cuban ; 5 | government. official ina café sometime in October of '63? a 7 Mr. Phillips. (The Witness nods in. the negative... 5 7 Mr. Goldsmith... You are shaking your head so I take it. : Pac doesn't. ring a bell. < a Mr. Phillips. No, it doesn't -- it is not ringing bells. 5 ie ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Turning to your work -~ : ot Mr. Phillips. Salvadore Diaz Verson. " | Mr. Goldsinith. Right. : 3 Mr. Phillips... The name is familiar. It seems to me that | : ha am now recalling that name in an extremely right. wing Cuban. = i , : = iS | editor or something like that? be { . as Mr. Goldsmith. If you determine who. that. individual is ° 7 | after you leave the hearing room today, would you contact the | : 8 | Committee and give us that information? | : ” yoo i BY Mr.°Phillips. Of course I will. | 5 am Mr. ‘Goldsmith. Thank you.. Mr. Phillips. I.do now -- the bell is ringing that. that iis the name of. an extremely right wing, conservative Cuban H | Journalist of some kind. 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall now whether you had any hd i o wove ty om fre pe ee NS : 8 ALQESSSON REPORTING COMPANY | HW 50955 Docld:329977912 Page 72 —
30 70 | Mr. Phillips. NO, I don't recall that I was connected | 7 with him. JI may have been. i | Mr. Goldsmith... Turning: now to your work with the CIA ! e. jan regard to the Bay of Pigs. operation; did you also work on : 3 5 | the covert action. area in this particular regard? | | : ‘ Mr. Phillips. Yes, in a limited sense. I didsnot. work. | S 7 on the political. side, talking with the political groups. | . 2 | that was the. job shared. by two other:people, at one time — | | Howard Hunt did it. My work was propaganda primarily, the > | a i E ¢ | construction of a large radio station in the. Caribbean, financing : 1 | of exile newspapers so it was more propaganda typeswork, groups a | 12 | of doctors who would make statements and that sort of thing. i 2 i2 It. concentrated on the. propaganda. z 1 | Mr. Goldsmith. In this particular case, did you have : 13 | direct contact with your agents and assets? | 2 a Mr. Phillips. Yes,I did. | ; | Mr. Goldsmith. On a frequent basis? | Mr: Phillips. Not frequently because I was. stationed lin Washington. and they were generally operating out of i Miami, and someone from our Miami office would see. them on a ‘with them and would see them. Mr. Goldsmith. During your experience with the CIA, 2" | @id you ever train any assets or agents in "psychological. i 45 | warfare"? st nN it i $1° HW 50955 Bocla: 32277212 Page ?3 | regular basis. But I flew to Miami frequently and would meet. ' i | t i ! ' '
31 - 71 7 Mr. Phillips. Certainly not in a formal.sense.. I would _ i oy 2 | in. talking with them about= radio broadcasts and things like | 3 | that, I. tried to give them the lessons of my experience, don't. @ 4 | be too obvious with this point. If you think that you are | 5 | going to-defend Batista and be welcome back in Cuba, you are | a 7 crazy, that sort of thing. | Ce - S | Mr. Goldsmith. Did youtever vhave any type of training S 2 | Sessions at the. Berlitz Language School in Cuba? | | 5 7 Mr. Phillips. Training sessions at the Berlitz Language. | 12 | school. No. As. a. public. relations client,. when things weren't = a i =. H | going very well with my public relations firm and I was .. ' 12 | taking Frenchlessons, and I. -- how did this’ss#:Iuhad French E 13, | lessons from a Berlitz teacher, and I didn't pay them fors.«: | = i . d ; | the French. lessons and. they didn't pay me. for some propaganda : 15 | advice. There was an American. who was running that office, E Ie put no, I don't recall using their school .. I had an office : “ | ana the French teacher came to my office. | : a Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work in Havana with a person, : "| whose name. was Melton?: | S: a ‘Mr. Phillips... That may have been the name of the man , wee That the. Berlitz. school, but I am not ~~ I can't recall for | vy * | sure. | ae 22 Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to your agents and assets | * "| whom you worked with in the Bay of Pigs. operation after the *= | operationfailed? . | | | Soa S14 HW 350955 Borla: 32277212 Page fé
32 2 7 . Mr. Phillips. Some continued in the Miami exile — . | 2 | community: They went into radio.stations and started. their | a | own. programs. Some went, into’ business, a. number of different 7 Mr. Goldsmith.. Were any of them involved in. propaganda | F 7 activities pertaining to the assassination of the President? 3 1 Mr. Phillips. If they were,. I don't. recall it. I am not g 2 | aware. of it. S | | Mr. Goldsmith.. Did you know av) man named Emilié, Nuhez. - : 10 | Portuendo? | : 7 Mr. Phillips. ves. a Mr. Goldsmith... Who was he? | gy : 12. Mr. Phillips. Emilio ar was he not at one time. the, not. | = i ! = | the President of Cuba but ‘the Chief ‘ofthe. Suprene court or . | a | . E |S. | something very, very importante and perhaps had something to | = Hi : Lo = 1s Lao with, “ambassador. to the. United: Nations, something like. : “ 17 i that? : z a Mr. Goldsmith. pid you. ever work with him in any operational = " [eeneet | ; | . a | Mr. Phillips. I. think I met him in Cuba. I can't recall | chat I. worked with him in. an. operational sense. ee | ; Mr. Preyer. We have a vote on, I am sorry to say, but ~ 4 | oe — oe ee, aa we will recess for approximately ten minutes. — 4m 4 (A brief recess was taken.) ; . i : ant GIS HW 50955 Docld:32277212 Page 75 —
wm, tre gu 2002% (202) 554-2345 3 . a a 7 e = {0 | 5 1 = = | e | aA a ec u z HI - 134 co t = ts | = i Fa -! = 1S 4 S a = i a i a : “= 1s 4 -. i in Foy i STREET, 0: 7 o. e a fy. < i.) Hi i i 1 = 19 | - i ~ 4 | c 4 S 20 | foo] ae 1 . i { ae | Er yett e} ie ae a3 an HW 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page 7Té 33° fe oe 73 Mr. Preyer. The Committee will resume.. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work. with a man. who was ~ referred to as Douglas. Gupton, G-u-p-t-o-n? pseudonym. but ‘the alias that I always. used for him and that he pickéd up from me becausezmy two best friends. in high schoo Mr. Phillips. Yes,I did. Mr. Goldsmith. Was that his true name? | Mr Phizlips. No. Mr. Goldsmith. What was his true name? Mr. Phillips. Douglas Gupton was the alias, not the. were a fellow named Douglas ‘something and a fellow named Billy Gupton, and that is what I was referring to this morning. went. to Miami. who in.effect. worked for me during the Bay. of . Pigs Mr. Goldsmith. And-what was his true name?’ Mr. Phillips. Bill Kent.» Mr. Goldsmith. Bill? Mr. Phillips. Kent, K-e-n-t. Mr. Goldsmith. What kind of working relationship did. with Douglas Gupton? Mr. Phillips. Very close because he. was the officer whé business in the Miami locale.. So he met lots of those people.. Mx. £Goldsmith.i:So-youswerer ins Washington,. DIC. ~=~ | Mr. Phillips. That's. correct. Mr. Goldsmith. And Gupton' was in Miami. qb i i i i t f ] \ i ! “| H H 4 i H t | | i H i ! i | i i | H
34 74 . Goldsmith. Are you sure that his last name was tan | ! i Mr. Phillips. Miami. i 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Was he a reliable and competent person? | 3 Mr. Phillips. Yes, quite. ne . , Kent? | _- | | Mr. Phillips. I think so, William Kents... | Is it something like that? But I think it is William. ans Kent. 29028 C202) S5u-24945 “a > i] Mr. Goldsmith. And he was an Agency case officer? Hy ple. Mr. Phillips. Yes, he was a staff officerzfor the Agency. VASHTHGTON Mr. Goldsmith. Getting back for a moment to. the question | of propaganda or psychohogical training sessions. in Cuba, €o°. a, your knowledge did such sessions take place not necessarily; | in the offices of the Berlitz School in Havana, but in an. offices i ° 1 in. the building in which the Berlitz School was located? | } REPORTERS GULELDIN : Mr. Phillips. I have no recollection of that. : S.u. aan Mr. Goldsmith. I. asked you earlier about a man named '8 | Melton. = = an ~ c i Oe) Mr. Phillips. Yes. | | Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have any operational involve- ' . ment.for the CIA with this man Melton? ae | Mr. Phillips. I'am not sure. If Mr.Melton was the man | i : lof those casual things of he was one of the friendly Americans | | who passed you information, and to that degree I. might very if ha t 1 1 . ar ' 1 1 i ' HW 50955 Docld:32277212 , Page 77
HY 4S0954 i i 1 i i -_ Zot 2 | i \ 3 | i i 4 4 i i nd ~ = x? re] ~ | ~ | t i ve) 2 wa Q | ~ iH ~ ' a Sc S 7 | — 5 - I oO ad co ~ OH c | N u M ° aon ca] 7H . iy at Fai a i a ; i = iG i S ! be : (oi i = t t on td i = ! = { a | a { =z 144 lé& } * i i>} : = uh = st a 13 i ber} Hi} inal 14 | i : tne ! aa i rei x ied 9 Hi 2 i = 14 a 3 . | ~ H aati . i ‘ a i x oy iver a = t = IF | ~ i i 1 c i aq | a . I an i rs ee iH at tt ti iH i q af tl iH ag ae | 33 35 75 well have because we became fairly friendly, but.I don't recall that he was, had any -+ that we asked him to provide | cover or he ran.a group. I don't. recall. that. _ Mr. Goldsmith.. pid he. ever run any of these training sessions,. propaganda ‘or. psychological. warfare training sessions Mr. Phillips. Not to. my. knowledge. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have an office in the building in which. the Berlitz School was located? Mr. Phillips. I. don't recall where -~- I don't recall exactly where the Berlitz School was, whether it was in the same building I was in. I was in the building directly behind the Hotel Nacional, and I can't, recall whether the Berlitz School was there. or. not. I didn't. go to -- I went | there. once or twice to that thing, but I. didn't. go. there for. my classes.: Mr. Goldsmith. Did you. know a person named Delphine © Campanada?. Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that. Mr. Goldsmith. To refrésh your memory, would Delphine — Campanada have ‘béen a person.with whom Douglas Gupton worked? “Mr. Phillips. Very well could have been. He saw an awful. lot of people. It is. not ringing any bells with me.” | right now.. Mr. Goldsmith. - What. about. Ross Crozier, Cer-o-z-i-e-r? a i &. 3 Docld: 322377212 Page 7Té : ; ; ; “a
ire it $e. wy 5 ) “~ t : 7 4 ws 4 -” n ' For oa 7 ear mM o a c a>! : 4 a) x roam * 4a ~ i'd 2 ot Ss an | pan “4 < . co . = : + jet + a ia we = = = tA LS be fe 1 oe > o = es iS “a 7 t “ ne 2 is 13 “A ~ 4 = (IF ~ c c ray “sy aed “4 4 HW 50955 Docld:32277212 Page 79 36 76 Mr. Phillips. That name is familiar. Mr. Goldsmith. Is it true that for purposessof refreshing your memory, that Ross Crozier was.a CIA case officer who | : worked with. the leaders of a Cuban group known as the DRE, Directorio Revolucionario Estudiantil?. | Mr. Phillips. Are we talking about Miami or in Cuba? Mr.. Goldsmith. No we are talking about. Miami: now.- | Mr. Phillips. While I think of it, there was an American who worked for me in Cuba, an elderly gentleman, | | and I have been trying to. think of his name. I don't think. | it. is Melton.. It could have. been but. anyway, back to. Cuba, to Miami. . | That may very well have been, but I don't recall.” meeting with him: 3 may have duriagmy:trips to Miami. | Mr. Goldsmith. Dia you. work with this group, the : DRE through Mr. Gupton?. os | wr. Phillips. Yes.; soe Mr. Goldsmith. And this would be in propaganda related | ho : | activities? | Mr. Phillips. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. ‘so basically Mr. Gupton worked with the --DRE under. your direction. Mr. Phillips. Yes, and he ‘also met with. a. number of other people, people who were running radio stations and newspaper -- radio programs and exile newspapers. tg BR, STING COHAN, ; ran i H ! t H i :
37 77 But the DRE was a very. important student group, both in Cuba. and later in Miami. m Mr. Goldsmith. Turning to. another area,. I believe at: i @ 4 } the beginning of your testimony today we first raisedsthe | = 3 | question of your pseudonyms, and one of them was Michael t w «| cnonaen? ~ Ho . . 5 | Mr. Phillips. Choaden. & 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Choaden, and what was the other one? c : , 3 2 | Mr. Phillips. Paul Langevin,. Paul D. Langevin, a i , = i . . . ae . a <= i¢ | Lea-n-g-e-v-i-n, something. very close, but I think that is = iH = 1 | corrects. = i = | _. . . = 12 | Mr.. Goldsmith.. Now, when you “dealt with one of your - j . = 13 | assets or agents, what name. did. you. use? _ @ Bots Mr. Phillips. I never used my pseudonym. The pseudonym S 1s | was for internal CIA use, and I always used an alias except 2 's | in those some cases. when I used a true.name, but I. always | a i7 | used. an alias. = 4 E ia | Mr. Goldsmith. And how many operational aliases did you z 7 || say that. you may have had? | 5 20 Mr... Phillips. Well, over a period of 25 years I. suppose i : _ew. #! ia hundred. ora a iy . . oo pe ae H . . a? . . : ., . pay 2 ‘ Mr. Goldsmith. And how. would that work?. You would-have © 23 one alias that. you would use with one individual and. another ! : 7+ | alias. that you would. use with a second individual? | i : ‘Mr... Phillips. Yes’. Sometimes. you would -- if you moved . wt “ t HY 50955 Bocld: 32277212 Page 80
78 from one country to another and you might use. the same | ; 2 alias you had used before simply because it was something you : i | could remember, so you might. use it with more than one agent. ! @ 2 | Often you would try and choose something that started at | least. with your initials, and that sort of thing, and I. : : «| just used countless and different ones*over the years.. | 2 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Was that standard practice for case officérs 2 : | to use that many operational aliases? ! = | 3 3 | Mr. Phillips. Yes.Ii:think it generally would be © | : 10 | considered sloppy case officer work to use the same one for | Ps Hi = iia long, long time with.a number of different. people. So | 3 12 often people would change them. . | . : 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. But if- you .used’ as many as a. hundred, | ® 3 is wouldn't that make it difficult to remember which alias you | : Is | used with a particular individual? — | | = I . Mr. Phillips. Certainly it would: I certainly don't — : * 7 | remember all the names that I used. | : 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Referring your attention now again to. the | : 9 | time that. you were in.Cuba from 1958 to '60, did you ever S20 |now a man named Julio Lobo?. | lone 1! Mr. Phillips. Yes. ce 2 i Mr. Goldsmith. And in what connection ‘did. you know Mr. | y : © 23 Lobo? | ** Mr. Phillips. The connection began. because Mr. Lobo's nephew, a man named Carlos Todd, was in a little theater group ‘I 4 a ft 4 iH Bp oye HY 50955 DBocld: 32277212 Page 61
39 79 ' | in which I was active. Julio Lobo was known. to everyone ‘in | | ce He was the sugar tsar. I: remember on one occasion’ ! ‘|e scemns met with him. [believe it was in. Cuba. Teaniight | @ 6 have been. later in ‘Miami, but I actuahly met with Mr.. Lobo. | : | At that! time ‘he had gore to Spain.to live; and it was either 3 8) in -- dt could have been in Washington but I believe it was E 7 | in cuba,“but. t do remember that on one ‘occasion 1 actually : He : a met Mr. Lobo, I think only one. time. : | Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever have any involvement. with : z | nim in reference to your CIA activities?. | : ny Mr. Phillips. Me. Lobo was considered an, asset... He ! « ‘ : 2 | covtatnny wn not a paid agent. or. anything like that. But | Z 2 | ves, there. ~- I don't. remember, an operation with him, whether | e : 7 : we were just talking with him about. propaganda or. what, but.. | : | what the specific was for that reason, whether we. were askizigy: = nam to cover some funds, pretend to be the source of some funds, : way don't remember the exact. reason. : : a Mr.. Goldsmith. Did you have any operational. activity | E an with his nephew? | 5H | Mr. Phillips: Carlos Todd? , Mr. Goldsmith. Right. | | Mr. Phillips. Wo. Carlos: Todd was a very, very bright. |man, and I think. he figured out. very early in. the game that . ; Sy probably -- there was something funny about the fact that = [Twas still living in Cuba without much public relations | $8 HW 50955 Bocla: 32277212 Page 62
_ HW 509455 20024 €202) SS4-2345 D.C. VASHTNGTON , REPORTERS BUELDENG, STREET, SoU. 346 7TH ons =~ Bocld: ~s) 40. ty > nm had $e da iu ib dss o o . . re ~ oS if i ‘i " if i S2277T212 purposes, | parties. Mr .. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips. Mr. Goldsmith.. ~ Mr. Phillips. him:in. an. operational sense. Did you. ever use Mr. Lobo for. recruitment to recruit an agent?* Now that you say that, I don't. recall the details. contact: to.use as agents? | 80. business, and this and that and the other, and I think he suspected that I. was Agency, but. I don't recall ever using it seems. to me. that perhaps that. meéting with him had to do with something that was going on in. Spain. with some agent that we wanted to approach in Spain. that he knew,.. possibly something Like that. Did he ever. suggest people to you. to. I am sure he did.. I don't’ reéall that he did to.me specifically that. one time we. met. Mr. Goldsmith. Have you.ever heard of a person. named Mr. Phillips:. Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips. - Page a3 Rufo Lopez Fresquet? Yes, I have. Who is: ‘that “Person? . “He was a. _ government. minister under Castro; ‘myself and never used. him.. one of Fidel 'G€astro's original cabinet members. who, like all the others, became ‘disillusioned with Castro. and came to this country. He. was.a very close. friend of some friends of mine | in the embassy, not. connected with CIA,. and I.met him at some: t didn't have any personal. relationship with him. i | H i i i ; | ! | | | | | | } i : i | i t f t Hl t } i i
HY 50955 41 | ic . Pe 81 i Mr. Goldsmith.. Did he ever assist the Agency in. any way | nny a an eos a 2 |‘with ‘regard to recruitment?’ ” 2 | Mr.. Phillips... Well, remember. that I was on the outside. | 5 Station. did. They. may have dealt with. him... It was my under- ee oo | 6 | standing that he.was a very close friend of the chief of USIA i in Cuba, and if the Agency used him, I don't know it.. I 2NO24 C202) Sok-29Hs 3 | did not.: a 3 Mr. Goldsmith. What about. a person named Mariada Arensburg? my cy Mr. Phillips. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith.) Would you.tell. the Committee who this | [fp cuba so I can't say precisely what. the people in the.” | | | | | | i i — Bo | | person. is? _ | | 1 i Mr. Phillips.. My children. were going to a school, and 14 | Mariada Arensburg,. an American. woman, was the number two. or i : | i - ‘ oP os rs 1g | three person running that. school, the vice principal. or . REPORTERS BUTPEDENG, WASHTNCTON , ls | something like that. I got. to. know her because of the school. Fresquet. ; 7) E later found out -- 1 did not know it then.-- that she was © 2 Z 8 politically active in trying to. helip some of the school who | : 9 were trying to. leave Cuba and that sort. of thing, and I S a remember that. she was a particular. friend of Rufo Lopez . | i Then Mrs. Arensburg came to the United States, and I. : 23 did have operational contact with her. there.. i aa “Mr. Goldsmith. And when specifically was this. incident? | | | ar Mr. Phillips. This was: during the preparations for the. | Bocla: 32277212 Page 4
HY 0955 D.C. 20028 (202) S5h-2445 VASHTHGTGN , BULEDING , REPORTERS JM, S STREET, x co o om and ou oa ory be eo) iH i 4 i am a, il i ; ! | ra u Tt i i Docld: 32277212 Page &4 42 82 Bay of Pigs, and we were looking for someone who spoke perfect. Spanish and knew Cuba to head a committee to cover-—some © broadcasting activities, and she was hired for that purpose. Mr. Goldsmith. Was that the only time that you used her? Mr.. Phillips. Well, I didn't. use her at all in Cuba.) It was within -- that association was ~- she stayed there for some time in that job. Yes, that is the only time I recall using her. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever use her for recruitment purposes? Mr. Phillips. No, I don't recall ever doing. that. Mr. Goldsmith. Did she ever suggest people to you to contact? friends, and we have seen each other frequently since those years, so undoubtedly she might have done some. Mr. Goldsmith. What about a man named Jack Cogswell? Mr. Phillips. Yes, an American businessman in Havana. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever use him as a. go-between between you and one of your agents or assets? Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that I did. He might. very well. have..been used by. the station. Can you do something to refresh my memory? . That name is very familiar to. me, an American businessman. in Cuba. Mr. Phillips. Undoubtedly. We became. very, very close i : f Mr. Goldsmith.. I am afraid I can't help you out on. that: i
43 — - | B38 | Mr. Phillips. Okay. — | 2 Mr, Goldsmith. Do. you recall. whether he may have helped | 3 you in your recruitment . efforts? | i Mr. Phillips. He may have because that name is very, very’ $e = 3 familiar to me. | : 4 ! ‘I can't recall the instance if it is true. | ~ 4 2 . ee Ss = "| Mr. “Goldsmith.. You will contact the Committee if you-- | & 2 Mr. Phillips. I certainly shall. _ | | : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. The name Samuel Kell, is that familiar? — : 19 ‘Mr. Phillips. Vaguély . | : 1 | Mr. Goldsmith. Could that person. have been a military : : 12 ! attache at the Havana’imbassy? | | z 13 i Mr: Phillips. Yes.. a : @ z ld Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work with Mr. Kell? | | : is | Mr. Phillips. ‘I did not. | | : 1s Mr. Goldsmith. What about Ewing Smith? | ~ ud i 4 a7 | Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that.name. | : a Mr. Goldsmith. A political advisor at the embassy.. = | Mr. Phillips. Ewing Smith? I think that Ewing Smith fo must have not called himself Ewing but’ something else. I | ce | thought I remembered#a man named David Smith who was. a | pa’ 22) political advisor, but Ewing Smith I don't. recall. But. ‘there | | a 23 was a man in the embassy named Smith.. | a | Mr. Goldsmith.. Have’ you ever heard of an organization | “2 | called the Celula Fantasma? 7 oo HY 50955 DBocld: 32277212 Page 66
HW 50955 | 44 84. : . | | | Mr. Phillips. I don't. recall that. a os i | Mr. Goldsmith. Do. you recall ever attempting to penetrate * Pena. organization with an asset./or agent? | | 4 “Mr. Phillips. No, I don't. | - | S * Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Phillips, you. testified earlier that 3 “| you were initially recruited by. the Agency in Chile. | S77 | Mr. Phillips. Yes. 3 a Mr .. Goldsmith. When. did you leave Chile? | 7 | Mr. Phillips. ‘On. the 14th of March. of 1954. | Qa Mr. involved = S a] = = an a = Mr. Goldsmith. And after leaving Chile, were you ever® in.any CIA operations there again? Phillips. In. Chile? - . - = 13 . = | Mr. Goldsmith. Right. . 2 | FS Es | 2 it EO , i. | 2 18 ean: named Luis. | = ‘Mr. Goldsmith: :Did you ever work.with.a man named Luis: = 9 | 7 a ee . . > | Posada?. a 29 | ae rn i Mr. Phillips. Yes. * i Mr. Goldsmith. And who is Mr. Posada? _ mo , Co, ' Mr. Phillips. I believe that he was a Cuban in. Mexico 23} | | City who ran this complex. I was ‘telling you about; the Cuban 44 . i refugee center. - I am not positive, but I know I worked “= 23 | . i ! that name is ~~ yes,” I aid work with him,. and I think I : ALGERSON REPORT NG COMPASS ; _<o Docla: 32277212 Page of
45 85 i recall that he was the-man in Mexico City. JI am not absolutely 4 ‘| Ie i / : _ : i ; . tO : i i. sure. about ‘that... — , ue , oe \ . H L | | ba 34 é “Goldsmith... What about a man named Lucillo Pena? — Phillips. I don't. recall that. one. F I a Mr. Goldsmith, Is it possible that you may have worked | ” an | 6 | with Mr. Posada in. reference to. any Chile operations? 74 Mr. Phillips. Yes, it is quite:possible. 202% (202) S54-2445 | N | an Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work on any Castro assassina-+ : . } . | SF) tion. plots? = 210 | Mr. PHillips. I did not. | E 7 Mr. Goldsmith... In any manner whatsoever?. - ! : a | Mr. Phillips. No manner whatsoever. I didn't. know about : 2 | them until much. later. | e : ia Mr..Goldsmith. Do you know a man. named Victor: Fernandez? g | Mr. Phillips. I don't recall that name. | * S| Mr. Goldsmith. ‘What. about Victor Ocarlos? — | ” ro Mr. Phillips. No, sir, .T don't recall that. : : ra Mr. Goldsmith. What about: a man named. Antonio Veciana? - zg ae Mr. Phillips. Antonio Veciana? | / | 20) Mr. Goldsmith.  Yes.: | : | Mr. PHillips. The. only thing I. know about. Mr. Veciana ! - is what I read in. Jack. Anderson's. column and New Times Magazine. i | 7 Mr. Goldsmith. And what is that. — | a Mr. Phillips. I believe that Antonio Veciana was a man | i that I have. met twice in my life, the first’time under unusual. | “yah HY 50955 Docla: 32277212 .Page 68 ©
46 86 circumstances, and the second time this morning when,Ii-- I bo presume that that was Antonio Veciana who came out of the’ hearings this morning while I was waiting in the hall. i 3 Mr. Goldsmith. And when was the first time that. you met : | Mr. Veciana? — 3 3 | Mr. Phillips. If the man I am talking about ,. the man who E 7 was there this morning, is Mr. Veciana, I first met him on . : 2 | the 18th of September of 1976. when=the Association of Former: * | antelLigence Officers:wasshaving a convention at. the Reston = ‘9 | Convention Center, on a Thursday and Friday. On Friday the : | aeth. in the morning, there was a telephone call and:-they said a = 2 they were calling from Senator Schweiker's office, and they & lp A 3 | wanted to know whether. three représentatives from Senator | : ! | Schweiker's office could come to our convention, and so of : 5 | course I said yes, we would be delighted to have ‘them. = a : I They arrived for lunch and so I had-them sit at my table. y a “one was a Mr. Fonzi. : ey Mr. Goldsmith. Fonzi? = a Mr. Phillips. Fonzi. One was a young lady whose name 'I don't recall, and.one was a man who was introduced to me only ; as "the driver." We had lunch and then I was asked by Mr. Fonzi, I believe | i i : (it was Mr. Fonzi, if I would mind answering some questions - tabout the Kennedy assassination, and I said fine, how long will it take? And he said, it will take a couple of hours. HW 350955 Bocla: 32277212 Page 69
AD 87 i i { ' i And I said really, that is very difficult for me. because 2 | I was in charge of the convention and we were trying to make our us schedule, but I did step into the hall, and at that time the { man I believe® to. be. Antonio Veciana put questions to me in | | | ‘i 5 | Spanish, and we chatted for a while in Spanish. They. left.and I’ called Senator. Schweiker's. office and said I have just. 20624 (202) $546-23945 ; | been asked questions about the assassination in Spanish. Is | 2 this man a fiietiber. of your, staff, because ‘after we went in the J + | hall he was. introduced not =~ no longer as the driver but as. | = © | a menber of Senator Schweiker's. staff. So I called Senator : ‘g 1) | Schweiker'swoffice and said is this.man, with whom I was S | = 2 | speaking only Spanish, a member ofyyour. staff, and they said ! | yes, he = is. | - oS | | | i | I am putting together some®:things here. A story came PORTERS BURLDING , 1s | out’ in New Times Magazine.which would indicate that. Mr. Veciana : S| was taken to that meeting, as it said in. that magazine, to. | ; | fing out whether or not I was a man called Morris Bishop. The 2 | man who I thinks Veciana I saw againzthis. morning.. | : eo Mr... Goldsmith... Did Mr: Veciana identify himself at that | a 5 20 | time? | i : | Mr. Phillips. No, he did not. | ; | att “Mr. Goldsmith. Did anyone identify him as Veciana? _ 1 Mr. Phillips.: No one identified him, gave him any. name — “at all. : a Mr. Goldsmith. Maybe I missed your answer, but how did | HW 50955 Docld:32277212 Page 90 ee a , arn
48 88 7 you determine if that. was. Veciana? | : i i 7 Mr.Phillips. Because ‘after I saw the magazine, in Sune. | 2 of last year, a year later, the circumstances related in he | | magazine story were obviously deseribing the incident. where ; | e = 5 | this gentleman came out to see mew.. Then I, read an exact -- the a d | 5 5 | name. was not used there. He was, identified only as a Cuban | g 7 | extte-xnow as Carlos.: Then I readin Jack Anderson's — a : = OF 2 | column almost. precisely the same story, that the man said a : 5 | the story that he gave about being given .a.large sum of | : 1) | money by. the CIA for termination. pay and this and that and: : : 1 | the other, was. the identical story, and in’ Jack. Anderson's | $ 1y || column it identified him. as Antonio Veciana. | . 17] Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever used the named Firgault,. | Fei-r-g-a-usl-t? ay 1st Mr. Phillips. As I ~~ I have already said I have. used. REPORTERS BUTEDING , so many names I don't remember, but I feel positive that ‘ 7/1 didn't use that name. I just can't see myself dreaming : 2 is that one up. | Es | : a Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Have. you ever used.a Belgian passport??. 5 co | Mr. Phillips. Never. | a : a | | : | i Mr..Goldsmith. Did Julio Lobo ever suggest to: you that | | Veciana would be. a good asset?. — | Mr. Phillips. Not that I recall. It could have been: but > 4 7 . . i 24 | I certainly don't recall it. 25 7 Mr. Goldsmith.. I think these ‘are important questions ,now: i HW 50955 Donld:32277212 Page 91
HI il it aH Ht it + dab 4 @ - wt . = a ot ct 4 we ‘ i * { ~ t 1 ~~ if | a 3, ong + o aq t rou . . th, at - ou Qa ..l # a * i ’ i i i any “Oo = pees ary — , 4 i = 1 i { | | | | { “il | i bry . REPORTERS BUPEDENG | i Ls 2 ao: i H i a= i 1p STREPT, So, i4 4 4 y 23 BW 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page 92 q i : : + oy tai ie ot i i = ig fi m i i one t Fs -. | ° 2 ory a i H n u he 4 i! i i We should try to. be as precise as we can so that we don't have | the same situation with you coming back again. “Mr. Phillips. Right. Did Julio: Lobo ever suggest to you that Veciana would be | Mr... . Goldsmith... - Ell ask the question again. =  & | a good asset?. Phillips. I have no recollection. . Mr. Goldsmith. What. about. Rufo Lopez.. Fresquet, did he ever suggest to. you that. Ve¢iana would be. a good asset? - - bnO6 Mr. Phillips. He did not.: He never ~- I don't. think that ave ever had a conversation with him except meetingy Mr. Mr... Mr. 2a as ‘* | him at a party. No, he did not. , i - Goldsmith. And what about Mariada Arensburg?. Phillips. No, I.don't. recall that she did. Goldsmith... Have. you ever. used the name. John Bishop? Phillips. Not to my knowledge. I don't think so, Goldsmith. Jim Bishop? Phillips. No.. Goldsmith: Maurice Bishop?. Phillips. bvbefinitely not.. Goldsmith. © You are. certain. that you have never used Maurice Bishop? _ _ Phiddips. I have ithouglit: about that%a lot since I | i 1 ! i i : i i i i j i }
3U 290 used the name Morris or Maurice Bishop. Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you a picture at bh 3 | this time or a sketch, and Mr. Chairman, there is a copy of & 4 ' that sketch in the briefing book in the section pertaining Z | to the previous witness, and I.would like to ask you if you é 5 | can identify that person. : 7 Mr. Phillips. 0), I cannot.. S 3 | It.looks like me.. It looks more like my brother, but it : : | Looks Like me. : 10 Mr. Goldsmith. Has your brother: ever worked for the > : 7 CIA? | = 12 Mr. Phillips. No, he has not.. He is an attorney. And he | : 2 has stayed at his. law firm in Fort Worth, Texas. ; é Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know of anyone ‘in the CIA who has '¢ | tsed.ithecname Maurice or Morris Bishop? | REPONTERS | Mr. Phillips. No, I do not.. : P| Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Chairman, I have concluded with this. E 3 section of my questioning. : af Mr. Preyer. Do you have some further questions? S 3 Mr. Goldsmith. Some, yes, but I could use a few moments - las you are going to be asking some questions. Mr. Preyer. All right. Mr. Fithian, any questions? _ a Mr. Fithian. No questions. 2f Mr. Preyer. Mr... Sawyer? _ HY 50955 DBocld: 32277212 Page 93
HW 50955 51 HAQD Mr.SSawyer.. I'll pass.. . Mr. Preyer. Mr. Dodd? _ das eable traffic, and I wonder if you might just briefly explain again for us how it was, according “to your assessment, co) of the cable traffic, anyway,’ ‘and your own recollection, how 20024 €202) S54-2345 ~ 3 jit was that. the word "Henry", “Lee Henry Oswald" happened D.c. “19 | to appear. in. the. cable traffic, and then, of course, ‘the = an e °, HASUTNCTON, 12 |knew at that particular time that that was not the correct Mr. Dodd. Well, I was going to take it back, if I could, | | I t { swe. Phillips, to your response to the. questions regarding the | | based on the cable traffic that you had before you, the copies | |inaication off -the word "Henry" of sic, indicating that someone: ge w2 |middle. name of. the individual? | Z 4 Mr. Phillips. Well, sir, obviously in my earlier. | Se i ” . : 5 : ltestimony my recollection was that the message that went oo | : 1s from Mexico to the United States said we have ‘a fellow down : ‘ \7 Iexe named Lee Henry Oswald. After that testimony and. | : 3 after having seen the messages, I realize how, I am convincéd : : > pox that my: recollection of the Henry came not from Mexico. | S ioe from that message from the United. States. What. the. origin | tt bf it was, why someone thought it was. Henry and why someone PK put the "sic" on it, I do not know, sir. I do not know. ! why it. appeared. in. that cable Leé Henry Oswald. n> fe Mr. Dodd. Would thé indication of that, of the "sic" ‘| HI | a5 ha ave been a notation. that. would have been made in México..or Bocla: 32277212 Page 94