AW 53244 10 ll 12° 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 Re 235 24 29 : 42 Mr. Aaron. I think the important experience we even had -here when we went into the question of Angola was that the Director of Central Intelligence is not the pérgon to. speak to the policy. . They can tell you what. they are doing, why they’ are doing X or Y activity, but when we were to ask, to define our strategic -- when he was asked to define our strategic interest in the area, he really. sort of punted. ‘The Chairman. Certainly, and referred to the Secretary of State. | I certainly think it denigrates the role of the Secretary of State’ that he not be that spokesman, and furthermore, I see less problem-in making him the spokesman. than leaving it up in the air. | Senator Schweiker. Frank, the only problem I have with that is doesn't it put him in a rather difficult position to be Secretary of State and also to be accountable to Congress on covert activities? | In other words, it just seems to me that that really puts — him right. in the meatgrinder a little: unncessarily. | | The Chairman. Well, that's where he ought to be, and that has’ been part of the problem up until now, the Secretary of State pretending that he has nothing. to do. with something being operated by the CIA. Senator Schweiker. Well, he can't pretend that anymore. DoclId: 32423512 Page 45
LO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el Re. 235 24 25 when it comes right down to it, it is and has to be the - problem of placing the President's Secretary and not one of he has no deniability either. ‘is it necessarily desirably so in the future? follows, and we ought to say so as a recommendation. That “By statute, the Secretary of State shall be designated as_ . | TO Laer : 430 Mr. Aaron. That's right. The Chairman. But we've had this problem in the past, but Secretary of State that is directing both operations... _ Senator Baker. Does that affect the Sécretary's standing with other countries, and the Secretary's dealings wit other countries where the other countries say "We can't deal with him. He's head of the American intelligence community." | Mr. Aaron. ‘Well, I think there are two parts. That, asa practical matter, has been known to people for a long tim in terms of the President's Secretary, but second, the his own people. on the operations group effectively puts him -- “Senator Baker. Again we have the question of tense. I think that is clearly so now and has been in the past, but The Chairman. Well, as long as we recommend that the Secretary go in the group, I think he is the logical and the best man to be accountable, both for the overt: and covert policy, as spokesman to the Congress, and I just think it would be my proposed change, so that Item 10 would simply say HW 53244 Docid:32425512 Page 46.
10 ll 12 13° 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 25 24 29 policy and. purpose underlying covert action efforts." i ‘that, then that will be agreed to. a4 the Administration's spokesman to the Congress on the policy an -_purpose." — Senator Baker. Mr. Chairman, I am not sure what I will | finally say, but I will reserve whatever rights I have on f- . - oe : i —s this. The Chairman. I will modify it to this extent, however. "By statute, the Secretary of State should.be designated - as| . : : i the principal Administration spokesman to Congress on the ; _———.. i ——__~ - Do you want. to take a vote on that? Senator Baker. You don't need to take a vote. I just “want, you know, to take no one by surprise. I am going to think about this more, if I may. The Chairman. All right, if there is no objection to Senator Smothers. ‘Mr. Chairman, we have sort of completed the scheme on: the operations advisory group. I wonder if I could just raise a quick inquiry on why it is. | | necessary that we include the Director of the Clandestine Service who is on the same committee, on equal footing with | too, his boss. Is there some special thing we are shooting for here that we feel we have to do that with the DCI? Mr. Aaron. Well, I think the thought behind this was - that the DCI, having increased managerial responsibilities over TOR SECRET HW 53244 DocId: 32423512 Page 47
10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el 22 23 24 “25 45 the entire community, and having that for the purposes of being able to have an in-depth discussion, to make it clear: that the Director of. the Clandestine Service fully understands the policy discussions that, have-taken place. ; | The Chairman. Note the Director can always bring his assistant at any time for. the purpose -- I don't think the assistant to the Director ought to be in the group. Senator Schweiker. Well, the only thing is, Suppose we have a guy, as we saw here, that didn't believe it is going. to work, that was told to do something, get it done, like Chile, and do it, and here you have a belief institutionally that it is a lousy job or what if the guy who is going to be held accountable and is fired for whatever, he does, shouldn't be able to tell the group his opinion. Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, later on we recommend that those differing views be noted to the Committee. The Chairman. Well, the problem I have -- and I think Curt is right on this, we are designating -- look who we are designating for the group: the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, the Director of the Central Intelli-|. gence Agency, and the Attorney General of the United States. And then suddenly we have the Assistant to the Director of the CIA in charge of Clandestine Affairs. He could come anyway, “if invited by the Director. HW 53244 Docld:32423512 Page 45
"14 “15 216 17 18 19 20 21 22 235 24. 20. Mr. Smothers. He is going to be- chopping on mighty high cotton trying to convince these people that he deserves to be there. Mr. Dennin. Walt, I don't know if it was intentional, but the composition of the group differs from the executive. order, and it may be unintentional, in that the group, as we include it, does not include the Chief of the Joint Chiefs, whic the Presidential order does include. | I don't know if that was intentional, but there's a couple of changes we make from the way the order sets it up. Mr. smothers. I'd be in favor of putting him in. Senator Schweiker. Why don't we put the Joint Chiefs in a ae tee poate ae en oe, OR a ee rm ooo in there? “The Chairman. Put him in there in the place of the Director of Clandestine Services. . ona ee. a May I make this. suggestion, that we put the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs in place of the Director of Clandestine Services? ~--" a . | a Howard? Senator Tower. Mr. Chairman, may I digress on another matter for about two minutes, because I have to leave. It is a matter of the press conference at the Agency: We yesterday agreed to send a letter to.George Bush. what I am about to say will obviate the necessity for that letter. I have talked to him'on the phone. He said, "I have assumed HW 53244 DoclId:32423512 Bage 49
10 Ll le 13 14° 15 16 17 18 19° - 20 21 22 28 24 © 25 full responsibility for it as-any good naval Skipper does when his ship runs aground." But the fact of the matter is, he did not know this was: going on. He's got-his IG working on it. ‘He said, "The IG report is on mv desk. I haven't had.a chance to look at it. It came in last night. I will send you a full,| written report on what happened and why, and the measures we. are taking to see that it does not happen again." He said, “We are plainly guilty in this, we made a mistake." | So he has already said that. ‘The Chairman. Has he called a press conference to make an announcement? “Senator Tower. le said he would tell the press that. “Wel he has already told the press: he will take full responsibility The Chairman. All right. Senator Mondale. But it really is, John, disgusting that]. we have to get on our knees and beg. Senator Tower. That's precisely what he said. He said ‘the Congress has every right to be miffed about it. Senator Mondale. And then they hustle some PR types in thereand tell them everything. | “Senator Tower. The point I'm trying to make is he is goin to file a cull report on it, including the steps he is taking to make sure it doesn't happen again. “Senator Huddleston. Where is he going to file the report? Senator Tower. With us. HW 53244 Docld:324273512 Page 50
10 ll le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 £2 23 24 29 43 So I just submit that the letter is not necessary. The Chairman. Can we go now? Senator Mondale. ‘That isn't the only thing about that Story. It shows how the executive has funds to create the happy life. | Senator Huddleston. No, that ~- they charged -~ (Discussion off the record.) The Chairman..We have to be out of here by 12:00 ‘o'clock because we have to move along. Senator Mathias. We have to be out of here in five minute because there is a vote. | : The Chairman. well, let's go to page 16. —— All right, on page 16, I have a question to raise about Item 16, which I don't understand -- Item No. 11 on page 16. “The Director of Central Intelligence should continue to carry out the notifications required in existing law and answer any questions relating to the covert activity in question. ‘The President also should continue to certify covert actions projects, as provided by the existing statute." Now, we have to decide whether we want to recommend the continuation of the Hughes Act. And I don't know how that - is consistent with the recommendations we are making for “the! establishment of a permanent committee that is going to be the repository of this information and is going to exercise the supervision over this. HW 53244 Docld:32423512 Page 51
| Oe oT | 49 1 Senator Baker. Not only that, but I’ don't see the need PY) for it. ZS) . “The Chairman. And you have perpetuated the chaos up 4 here which really makes it even impossible to keep legitimate 5 secrets. 6 Senator Baker. I think we ought to change it and tell o nobody nothing. -| Mr. Aaron. Can I just clarify something about the para-~ 9 graph? The paragraph itself is designed simply to continue 10 || the procedure that the DCI inform the Congress, that the ll President certify. Now, the phrase "existing law" could — 12 apply to either revision in the current law ox the current 13.) law. . 14 The Chairman. No, it. couldn't. Existing law is 15 “existing law. 16 Mr. Aaron. “the intention was to be neutral as to what 17 |. the law was except for the procedures that the DCI inform 1g || and the President certify. | 19 ee The Chairman. Well, what this is that the Director of 20 ‘Central Intelligence should continue to carry out the notifi- 5 cations required in existing law. Existing law requires that 22 |) he notify half a dozen committees. 23 -- Senator Mathias. “Required by law" is what we mean, 24 “isn't it, instead of “existing law?" 25 >. Mr. Smothers. “Ex sting" isa little super*luous, because TOE CECB ET HW 53244 Docld: 32423512 Page 452
10 11 12 13 414 15) 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 29 24 29 50 if you are going to have “required by statute," which we do in our subsequent recommendations, then why do we need to say that again? Senator Huddleston. Well, in the first place you don't -- have the statute yet. There is a statute 'now, and there may not be another. You know, this may not fly, so we don't want to do anything that would indicate that we want to lessen what he is already required to do. If we do impose additional requirements, that will be in whatever statute follows. The Chairman. Well, then, what we should say is -- Mr. Smothers. Mr. Chairman, if we are actually calling | for a change in existing law, we might cite the objectives being served by existing law, but we ought to come out and say what the new recommendation is, to end that confusion. The Chairman. Well, it is very confusing as it now stands. Maybe the best thing to do would be to strike this ‘entirely. Mr. Inderfurth. Could I'mention one thing here? In the President's letter to Congress, he suggested or recommended that his certification of the importance of the national security interest would be knocked out, and so this | is addressing that, putting this Committee on record that the certification is important and necessary. He does not want to continue certifying. Me. Dennin. - But, he says that as a follow-up sentence to HW 53244 Docld: 32423512 Page 33-—
‘10 11 le 13 14 23 24 29 a sentence which says, in this context, "A Congressional requirement: to keep the oversight committee fully informed is more desirable and workable. asa practical matter than the formal requirements of notification to the six other. committees . He says there ought to be. Mr. Inderfurth. Well, that's notification and not certification. Mr pennin. Well, in the next sentence it talks about © certification. | | Senator Baker. Well, Mr. Chairman, let me say a word. The Chairman. Yes. Senator Baker. As I said a minute ago, I think this is another key and Central issue. :I think in our recommendations you just have to face up to some hard facts: do you intend to keep these six committees on line, or are you going to \ repeal. the Hughes-Ryan Amendment? We haven't spoken to tha . I personally think you are either going to have to repeal it or amend it so that you only. report to the oversight committee. 120 and 130 members of the House that-are entitled toa briefing under the Hughes Ryan Amendment, and 50 Senators, plus whatever staff. they choose to bring with them. Now, I think if we don't do anything else, we have got to decide to centralize that responsibi “CRCRET ity. So I think we. HW 53244 DoclId:324273512 Page 54 I have been told just now that there are someplace between
10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 235 24 29 - quent revision of the Hughes-Ryan Amendment. 52 TTA nee co seem argnapteren erate mn ought to strike this out, as you suggest, and I think later on we ought ‘to consider whether or not we recommend an amendmen to the. Hughes-Ryan. Senator Schweiker. Does the new bill out of Government Ops deal with this issue at all? Mr. Schwarz. It is only a resolution. The Chairman. It is only a resolution. It does establish the jurisdiction that the Senate can, but it is not a statute. Mr. Kirbow. It recommends only that there be RN anes me ney some Ae eaten a subse- ° : + edentaamen ater a . . wee aay ~~. aces ance eee em ae npn et I EE Ot ee Setar neler ee ' The Chairman. Well, I think we ‘should be consistent, because the Government Ops came out with a.bill that is very close to the bill that we originally recommended. Senator Baker. And I think a very good one. The Chairman. I think it is a very good one, too. emp : ~ ] mo oo Mr. Kirbow. May I suggest that we strike 11 and substitut i ! i Inew_ wording and bring it back to the Committee? “senator Huddleston. Now, just one other point. I think it is probably not all that important that it stay in there, but if you read 10 where we designate the chairman of the | group as a spokesman, one thing that we wanted to do was, having done that, we didn't want to imply that the Der was in any way relieved of his continuing responsibility, because the law is there and he is responsible under that law, and it in effect does not have to be said. HW 53244 Docld:32423512 Page 55
54 , a to me, the question about which committees, t 7 2 if only a single committee is going to be required to be Sit notified, it could be handled elsewhere without in any way 4 changing - | con | Senator Schweiker. If the law is changed, it won't be ~—~6 inconsistent. | mi Senator Mondale. By using the word: "existing", we are as) getting into trouble. | 9: Senator Baker. Well, my problem, Mr. Chairman, is we 10 ought to just bite the bullet and say the law ought to be ll || changed, and that certification and notification ought to be 12 in our. proposed oversight committee. . 13 4) The Chairman. Well; we can do that in the covert action (14 7] part of the report later on. ; 15 But for purposes of this particular provision,- would it bef 16 || cured by just striking the word "existing" in both places? / 1 Mr. Smothers. Doesn't 14 address the: problem, Mr. Chairman? 18 The Chairman. Well, let's look at 14. 19. Mr. Kirbow. 14 says we require prior notice, we require’ 20 certification by: the President and a semi-annual report of all 51 these things anyway. | 22 | ‘The Chairman. Well, maybe it does. Look ‘at 14, “Existin 23 || procedures for notifying the appropriate Congressional 24 committees should be continued, except that Congress should be 25 || notified prior ‘to the initiation of such a govert" ~- “Congress,’ HW 53244 Docld:32423512 Page 57
1 what does that mean? 2. Senator Huddleston. We took it to mean the oversight 5 committee. 4 . ' The Chairman. We think that the oversight committee insteac 5 of Congress. After all, these are recommendations. "Existing 6 procedures for notifying the appropriate Congressional 7 committee should be continued, except that by statute" -- 8 Senator Mondale. --"such notice" —- | | 9 ‘|- The Chairman. Except that the first sentence endorses the 10 Hughes Act, in 14. 11 |. Mr. Kirbow. You say "appropriate" only. You still have 12 to amend the Foreign Service Act. 13° Senator Huddleston. Well; there again you can take 14 the word "existing" out and you are all right. "Precedures | ~ ; 15 for notifying the appropriate Congressional committees should | ans oo ee : 16 || be continued." oie” 7 Senator Baker. Mr. Chairman, I would like to reserve my 18° xights on this one. “49 _ Mr. Aaron. Could I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that while 50 you are voting we try to draft something that keeps the a 51 principle of certification and notification, but: does not 22 || do so in the context of reaffirming one way or the other? 1 23 Senator Schweiker. That's what we ought to do. 24 - «Phe Chairman. Why don't we revise, take 11 and 14, 25 combine them together with the following objectives: one, to HW 53244 Doclda:324273512 Page 56
~ 10 11 12 13— 14-]] 15 16 L7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 29 56 J . a . : . . ‘ . oe . , . . maintain the requirement of notification and certification; and two, to recommend that that information be, given to a permanent oversight committee in lieu of the present provisions of the lav that require that it be given to Six different committees. Senator Wuddleston. Let me suggest one point further, if they have time. There are a number of instances in here where we refer to Congress being notified, and I'm wondering © whether that ought to be changed to "the oversight committee.” The Chairman. -Yesi. Senator Huddleston. If that is not inconsistent with what we are saying. . The Chairman. Does the staff have that? senator Baker. I think, Mr. Chairman, I think that is a substantial, .even a vast improvement. I generally agree with that, and I probably will have some additional comment |. to make on that, but I fully support the proposal. The Chairman. All right. Mr. Miller. David, how does that read? Mr. Aaron. - Well, I don't. know how it will read. We will read it when we come back from the vote.: The Chairman. We cannot come back. Well have to go over it at 10:00 o'clock tomorrow morning, and then will you bring back a revision of these two provisions? Mr. Aaron. Yes. The Chairman. And we will take up on page 16 HW 53244 Doclda:324273512 Page 59 —
1 tomorrow morning. 2 mo (Whereupon, at 11:59 o'clock a.m., the’ Committee recessed 3 to reconvene. at 10:00 o'clock a.m., Thursday, March 13, 10 11 12 13 14 15H. | 16 | 1? 18 19° 20 21 22 23 24 29 HW 53244 DoclId:32423512° Page 60 .