AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE: DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : DOCUMENT TYPE : CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : v9.l Docld: 3227627402 Page 1 JFK Assassination System Identification Form Agency Information HSCA 180-10107-10471 NUMBERED FILES 014662 Document Information HSCA BUSINESS MEETING 10/13/1977 65 CIA, FILES FBI, FILES HSCA, ADMINISTRATION HSCA, TRAVEL HSCA, METHODOLOGY HSCA, STAFF HSCA, FINANCES TRANSCRIPT Unclassified Open in Full Redact 08/17/1993 MLK matelial withdrawn, pp.61-65.Box 270. Date: 10/8/201
_ Stenographic Transcript of | : .. HEARINGS: . : Before The : - _ SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS - HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES — - ‘Washington,D.c. © October 13,.1977. Alderson Reporting Company, Inc.  Ofpeial Reportow. 7 300 Seventh St., S. W. Washington, D. C. 554-2345, Docld: 32262402 Page ?
THOMAS : hte f | 12 13 14 15 REPORTERS BUTLDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 20024 (202) 554-2345 18 30N 7TH STREET, S.W. | Docld: 3227627402 Page e «a BUSINESS MEETING Thirsday, October 13, 1977 House of Representatives, Select Sonmmittee: on Assassinations; > -Washington, D. C. ' The Committee fet’, “pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m., in Room 2220, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Louis Stokes (Chatiman of the Committee) presiding. Present: Representatives. Stokes, Preyer, Dodd, Fithian, Devine, McKinney, and Sawyer. , Also Present: G. ‘Robert Blakey, Gary Cornwell, James Wolf, Robert Hehner, Tom Howarth, Dorgéthy Kuhn, Elizabeth Berning, Jan Schlichtman, I. Charles Mathews ‘and Robert Morrison. The Chairman. At this time we will call. the meeting to order, a quorum being present. I understand, Professor Blakey, that the majority of the matters to be considered by the Committee under the rules must be considered in executive session and that there may be one or two items that acn be discussed in open session, and) in addition to that, we still. need one member of the Committee in order to close the hearing for executive purposes. - So if there is something that can be done in open ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
12 13 14 300 7TH STREET, S.W. a REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 584-2345 : = os 2 oOo. oN & wu ® we BP , eee ceeene on eee cee mer wee ange many gn eg GS wo cn rT te TR ON A a OE . Docld: 3227627402 Page 4 eo AN ‘session at this time, the Chair would entertain -- Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, there is one item on our list | that could be done in public session without difficulty. As you know,. under ‘our House Resolution 222 and Committee Rule 4 it is possible to designate counsel to take atatements under oath, and you have before you a dre&tis resolution that would designate «counsel primarily from the Kennedy side, to take statements under oath. | (The above reférred to resolution follows) ee ete nites Meee apse ere eee Seen en ra ESAs ene et ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
s 1 Mr. Blakey: I would indicate to you beforehand that 2 this is a limited number of counsel, primarily those of the 3 supervisory rank, or senior counsel, and that intent is that 4 they take statements under oath only under limited circum- 5 stances. 6 We will have for you a similar resolution at the next 7 Committee meeting finally designating the counsel to take 8 statements under oath on the King task force. 3 My recommendation to you then is that yself, Mr. Cornwel , 10 | Mr. Goldsmith, Mr. Leodis Mathews, Mr. Hornbeck, Mr. Charles i! Mathews and James Wolf be designated as counsel to take state 30 7TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINCTON, D.C. 202% (202) SS5%-2345 13 Mr. Sawyer. May I make an inquiry? ° 14 The Chairman. Certainly. 15 Mr. Sawyer. Does this designation then subject the ig | person who is being interviewed to perjury if he falsifies 17 | himself? | | 18 Mr. Blakey. The effect of it would be to authorize the 19 || Statement under oath and if the oath was violated he would 20 be subject to perjury sanctions. | 1 | ments. This will be primarily on the Kennedy side. | | I | | | I would call to your attention, Mr. Sawyer, that these Pe | kinds of statements cannot be taken pursuant to subpoena; | they have to be voluntary statements. So it does not have a 24 | formality of a Committee meeting although we intend to use it 25 only in significant circumstances. ee eerie nn ae oe enna a ene 2 Se er ene | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 322762402 Page 5
swear the witness in. “A court reporter would be present, the witness obviously would be represented by counsel. Mr. McKinney. ‘The witness would have to be volunatry? Mr. Blakey . Yes. The Chairman. Mr. Devine. Mr. Devine. I have two questions. Number one, Mr. 12 Blakey, any lawyer that is a notary public is authorized to 13 ||. give an oath. Do you need something in addition to being a 14 notary public? Mr. Blakey. You many not. But we have taken the posi- 1§ REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 29024 (202) 854-2345 tion as a matter. of good practice that we would make it as formal and solemn as possible and thus get a Federal Magistra to do it. Mr. Sawyer. It is psychologically good with the witness. 300 7TH STREET, S.W. Mr. Blakey. That is true. Mr. Devine:. The other question I have is maybe it is an omission or maybe Mr. Lehner has qualified. I don't see his name on the list. Mr. Blakey. We will have for you next week the names tH 1 Mr. Sawyer. The reason I ask this, I am not familiar . 2 with the Federal law, but under my State's law you have to go 3 | through some kind of designation or else it is not perjury, 4 and I just wondered if that is the same thing in Federal law? a 7 Mr. Blakey. Our practice is to have a Federal Magistrat | | | { | { I | | . - ; a e.- s i of the people on the Martin Luther King side. i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. | Docld: 322629402 Page 6
: nn i J ard a aw a w in = § a = ow 6 s 7 = 4g C—J ~ J 9 c = 10 E fa = 2. g = s best = 2 14 | n Ee e 18 4 | 63 e 16 = “17 Go 2 5 z 19 = 720 au | | | { | | | | i Docld:3227623402 Page Mr. Devime. You can't do it all at once? Mr. Blakey. There is some debate as to who should be designated on the King side. We haven't resolved that yet. “I don't mean real debate, it is discussion. There are some people on the King side, including Mr. Lehner, who are already _ designated. Mr. Devine. That is what I thought. . Mr. Blakey. Mr. Lehner, Mr. Lee and Mr. Johnson are already designated, so. the question is which additional counsel on the King side would have to be designated. The Chairman. Mr. Doda. Mr. Dodd. I raise my own ignorance. We had a debate — several weeks ago in the Rules Committee. The Select Committe Looking at the Korean investigation requester permission to take sworn statements from withesses without a member of Congress present. Do wé still require the presence of a member for these? Committee asked for and what we already have is primarily tha Mr. Blakey. No, the difference between what the Korean . there is no compulsion involved in our taking of statements under oath whereas, correct me if I am wrong someone, what ene | Korean people requested was a Congressional subpoena to compel) testimony before a staff counsel without a Congressional member present. Mr. Dodd. I think you are correct, I think it was having " ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING.
6 ' to do with & subpoena and: compelling testimony, but I was under the impression during that debate that the thrust of the arguments did not have to do with the compelling nature of] ; the testimony but rather the fact that sworn.:testimony would 2, be taken of a witness without a member of Congress being F present and in fact Chairman Rodino of. the Judiciaky)' enmitece , ‘ | argued no committee of Congress had ever had that authority . ‘ in the past, in fact the Judiciary Committee did during the 5 5 impeachment process but never utilized it. We have been doin it, apparently. | | gg 10) | 5 n | Mr. Blakey. We have. It provides two things for us. : 2 | (One, it provides an important means of paying witnesses, g 3 frankly, when we talk to them incident to taking a statement : a under oath, and it does provide us,. what amounts to a deposi- z tion, primarily to bringing a witness before the full Committe : | Under our rules the witness¢~ statement is not evidence = ‘| and it is only under a comparable set of circumstances that / 4 ta | would be applicable in civil proceedings or criminal proceed- . & 3 ings, the witness being dead or undwai lable or not in the . 20 interest of justice, that the Committee could openly rely on " a| it in. formulating its final report as evidence. So it isa OS very limited but very useful authority. 4 | Mr. Ddadds;.But a subsequent contrary statement could x | subject the witness. to perjury? 95 | Mr. Blakey. Well, if the statement under oath is false | Foner osname ree ne ne nena reat tents ate Aa so Gen he unspent “| ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Docld: 32262402 Page 6 ,
300 7TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 29024 (202) SS5S#-23485 1 2 | 3 4 5 P 8 ; 9 10 Et] zo. 13 |), a 14 ; 1s | | | | Docld: 322762402 Page it would subject him to perjury without necessarily having contradictory statements. It is not terribly different than the authority given to IRS agents in investigating fraud cases or to the FBI in investigating fraud cases in certain limited circumstances to take a statement under oath. Mr. McKinney. ‘still, if you wanted to use the statements for evidence we have to then subpoena and have a formal hear- ing with the Congressman present? Mr. Blakey. Yes sir, unless there is a series of exmep- bbons “applicable. | Mr. Sawyer. The problem with contradictory statements is you have the burden of proofing which one is false. ‘You can't do it just with the two contradictory statements. ‘ Mr. Dodd. ‘The argument is that the House really doesn't have any civil rules of procedure here, so that when we interrogate witnesses, the Committee staff do, we don't have any operating rules as such. I am not sure whether this is true with the IRS and FBI when they --— Mr. Blakey. Approximately the same sort of rules are applicable tous. We do have a statement of relevance. If we ask the person something outside of our legislative nanaaed I suspect he would be’ privileged to answer, and since it is | all voluntary, anytime a person doesn't want to continue the | conversation they get up and walk out. | 1 Mr. Dodd. Yes, that is I think a significant difference.! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Mr. Fithian. Having heard all our learne lawyer friends I would move the question. 10 18 | Docld: 322627402 Page 10 ana ITH STREET, S.U. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, 0.C. 2024 (202) 554-2345 n GB re G 8 2 oO wn rs oe np = ‘ pe SS a SS Mr. The The The Mr. The Mr. The Mr, The (No The (No McKinney. I second the motion. Chairman. Properly moved that the resolution before us be adopted. ‘Clerk will'call the rolle. Clerk. Mr. Stokes. Stokes. Aye. Clerk. Mr, Devine. Devine. Aye. Clerk. -Mr. Preyer. Preyer. Aye. Clerk. Mr. McKinney. McKinney. aye. Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy. ‘response) . | Clerk. Mr. Thone. response) — The Clerk. Mrs. Burke. (No ' The Mr. . The response) Clerk. Mr. Sawyer. |. Sawyer. Aye. | | Clerk. Mr. Dodd. Dodd. Aye. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. now ns rr ee ec ere ae ce ate EEA 2
2 3 4 = § q =z a 6 s 7 = & 8 ct ~~ Psy 9 S = 10 2 2 = i 3 < = 12 3 = 43 a : | = 2 14 n 4 bas e 15 2 Gs = 16 = “a 17 - . S 18 a E19 S 20 21 43 24 25 new semen mera ite snremateitnrerecrenmpee ent saumimemrersaratarnne® ma coer oo & etapa irene Se een OS EEC A ns SE OE CO A TS ANS TTS ARIE (TS ir GT a —— — The Clerk. Mr. Ford. ‘(No response) ‘The Clerk. Mr. Fithian. . Mr. Fithian. “aye. : . The Clerk. Mr. Edgar. (No response) . The Clerk. Seven ayes. The Chairman. Okay, seven ayes and the motion is agreed to. Mr. Blakey. Mr.. Chairman, the additional matters that would be before the Committee are such that they should be in closed session. The Chairman. These are matters which under the rules must be considered in executive session? | Mr. Blakey. Yes. The Chairman. Then at this time the Chair would enter- tain a motion. | | Mr. Devine. _Eyso move, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Proposal moved that the Committee go into executive session and the Clerk will call the roll. The Clerk. Mr. Stokes. | ‘Mr. Stokes. Aye. | The Clerk. Mr. Devine. Mr. Devine.. Aye. The Clerk. Mr. Preyer. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Docld: 322762402 Page 11
2 3 4 wa z 5 aN z 2 «COS Ss 7 & 4g c—J a o 9 z 10 & eo <. g — ° e 1 wy = 2 14 a a e 15 rd os = 16 = “17 5 . e 18 ed a z 19 = 20 23 24 Se a a a a RT 25 Be tee cceee eee meee rete ree ete oe ee ees me ee re A ne RN rN Ss Sonne orm ——s. Docld: 32262402 Page 12 The Mr. The (No The _ (No The (No The Mr. the Mr. (No The Mr. The i(No- The ‘The 10 Preyer. Aye. Clerk. Mr. McKinney. McKinney. Aye. Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy. response. Clerk. Mr. Thone, response) Clerk. Mrs. Burke. response) Clerk. Mr. Sawyer. Sawyer. Aye. Clerk. -Mr. Dodd. Dodd. Aye. ~~ Clerk. Mr. Ford. response) Clerk. Mr. Fithian. Fithian. Aye. Clerk. Mr. Edgar response) Clerk. Seven ayes. Chairman. Okay, at this time the Committee is now in executive session. We will ask members of the public to leave the room. | (Whereupon, the Committee proceeded to executive session. ) ‘ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. ! es cee erent teem teen
20 | 21 22 pi | 990 2TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUTLDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 20024 (202) S54-2345 o fo 4 “ a pemneees wo eeeencerrei senses een enuees rere meen oe wee ser eae See 23 24 235 Form onncne ene} Docld: 322762402 Page ll (Discussion off the record) Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, the next matter that I would like to bring up is really two items, not one. _We have now finished the negotiations and the drafting of memorandums of understanding with both the Secret Service and the Department of Justice. You have copies before you. Basically, the terms should be familiar to you. — They are based on the general agreement reached with the CIA, The specific agreement with the Department of Justice is the Graft ene that I believe you wre shown at the preceding previous meeting. Again the heart of 4t in both situations, if I can Spee discuss them at this time, is basically. the Secretary Service has agreed to give us everhting in the first instance and then when it comes down to disclose, if we cannot agree, we have agreed to be bound by the litigation. | The Department. of “Justice has basically agreed to give us everything in the first instance except live informants, and as to live informants they will discuss it with us up to the maximum degree possible. short of actually giving us the name, and the assumption is that in this case that should be a i ea an terns nearer ‘ ‘ less than one percent of what we w#xe dealing with. We thought then that would be kind of set aside, if we got say, five instances of live informants that they wanted to retain, then we would go to the issue of ultimate disclo- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 13
17 300 77TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 2024 (202) 554-2345 ND iy 23 | 23 | | Docld: 322762402 Page 1 2 3 ‘| 5 6 8 9 | n | a * | 14 | \ | ! | | | | i | 12 sure, and again if we could agree, there would be no problem. If we aouldn't agree, we would be bound by the litigation. As to the one percent informahts, if we felt it was absolutely essential thatwe saw them, that would become part of the: subsequent litigation. My own recommendation to you is that the Committee ratif both understandings. . Basically they are far more than to my .- knowledge, any other Congressional committee has ever gotten from either the Department of Justice or the Secret Service. Mr. Devine. We have had themsfor sometime. I have read them through and I am prepared to make a motion to adopt the memorandum of understanding in both instances, if that is in order. | | Mr. Dodd. Before we -- The Chairman. Before doing so does amny member of the Committee have questions? | Mr. Dodd. Ido. Again I have the same kind of reluc- tance I did in the past, and I recognize that this may be a ‘xeal breakthrough in terms of relationships with these various agencies, but I still find myself in that very uneasy feeling of getting into binding agreements, and am particu- larly concerned about the releasing of authority of the service when it comes to certain materials that they would offer, for whatever reason. I don't have a massive case of paranoia about it, but sometimes the rationale for not wanting | | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 14