a ge Beat ee, ‘_s Kata 1-41 Mr. Goldsmith. What were your primary responsibilities | when you were down there? You were not involved in the photo- ha surveillance operation; you were not involved -~ excuse me for interrupting you. au I CL es 5 Mr. Shaw. Go ahead. 3 a Mr. Goldsmith. You were not involved in the photo- | 2 7 surveillance operation and you were not involved in the wire ns | tap operation, so, my question is, what was your primary ; ; | responeibilicy? 5 | Mr. Shaw.. My primary responsibility was to try to a |, j effect penetrations of the Cuban government. I spent a good = ; = a! bit of time with Cubans of the non-Castro persuasion, attempt- & : 13 ing to identify Cubans of the Castro persuasion that we might : 2/90 after. ¢ il z is | By "go after," I mean attempt to recruit. 2 | I spent a lot of time collecting information from the r + | Cuban asset on the outside.to process into the intelligence - 2 reports on what was happening in Cuba. 2 2 We had a system set. up in Mexico City under an agent : jones AMSAIL who was the representative of the, exile commun- 31 | ity. He would arrange to meet, hebtp, debrief, Cubans who were NR “a7 3. | arriving constantly from Cuba on the way to the United States a NT SO | / 44 a ' 234 | lor to Mexico or to somewhere else in the world, people who. | | were exiting Cuba. | Mexico did not break relations with Cuba as did the other | 1 | | ; Ae sR HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 42
ey > jMexice did not do it. i { | 2 i ; | So, when the refugee flow dried up in Florida, we probably). | , | had one of the most productive operations there in Mexico I spent a lot of time with AMSAIL on that. ; ) ~ “Mr, Goldsmith. Did you ever try to recruit Eusbio Ascue? | Mx. Shaw. His name is Eusbio Ascue. 5 Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. — to | Mr. Shaw. A-s-c-u-e. Fist name, E-u-s-b-i-o. I did not try to recruit Ascue. That may have been - - jateenpted prior to my arrival, in which the man who would know 2 | . . @ 4 about it, if it had been attempted, would be me[ | td | Mr. Goldsmith. What about Teresa Proenza? iTeresa Proenzay - 1-42 Mr. Shaw. No, I never made.any attempt to recruit gaa dtu STREET, So. REPORTERS AUTEDING, WASHTNGTON, O.C. 20024 €202) S5-24345 {7 | | . 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if anyone ever did? 19 “Mr. Shaw. I know we had an officer in. Washington who 30 pes formerly served in Mexico City who was very interested 29 | , 4, Jin Teresa Proenza. That officer's name. was Mr. Goldsmith. Is he still with the Agency? Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he is they 3 Mr. Goldsmith. What about Guillermo Ruiz? Mr. Shaw. That does not even ring a bell. $ + 4 yo e Ruiz } | ' ! } i | i I |
apagiy SECHE: l=43 i | very common Spanish name. Do you want to tell me who he is or if you have. anything onhim? Maybe it might ring avbell. | a Mr. Goldsmith. Apparently, Mr. Ruiz was a Cuban intelli- gence officer at the Embassy, Cuban Embassy. Z 5 Mr. Shaw. I do not recall him there when I was there. 5 é | Mr. Goldsmith. What did you say that Mr. | ~ i . e 7 | responsibilities were, if you said? S | Mr. Shaw. I did not say. I used his name -- he was : ; | another officer, like I was, in Cuban operations. = a = a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether he had anything to | : 4 | do with the photo operation.. | = 2 Mr. Shaw. I. do not know. He may have; I do not know. | ap : 12 I do not think: he did. He may. have. Z 14 Mr. Goldsmith. After your arrival in Mexico City, did 2 . : '§ | anyone attempt to recruit Ascue? ! : a Mr. Shaw. As far as I know, there was no attempt made r 7 to recruit Ascue after my arrival. My memory could be playing | — 4 z Is | tricks on me. I know I never went after him. | in , : a (A brief recess was taken.) ~ | é oe Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to get into the number of | ewe Ot people who were in Cuban Operations in October of 163, soptenbel, iy | ; | co ra el October of '63. Could you tell me again how many? 4 23 Mr. Shaw. If you could show me a list of the people at a 24 ithe American Embassy at that time, I think I could pretty well 3 jquickly, in the. station -- if you have such a list, I probably | i —SEBRET 5 Lo at angremaecs ay m7 TAS TOME aS HW 50955 Docld:32977914 Page 44 ALDERSON REPORTING COMSANE
ne 1-44 | could very quickly identify those that. had some connection © + i; with Cuban Ops. 3 i Mr. Goldsmith. The Agency has not given us that list @ 4 | today to have for this purpose. fo Mr; Shaw. Do you have one lying around? | ~ i . i oS 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. No. & 7 i So far, according to my recollection of appearances, & 2 il we have Mr. Phillips, yourself and| | 3s 3 } Mx. Shaw.. When I arrived there, | |would have | oo otg | been there. He would have been gonesby that time... —. Goo, John'.Zambernardi. would have been involved in the technical | S14 pops: ! oO = 1 | I am not sure whether Pegqy Magret was there or not. 2 ota ; Mr. Goldsmith. How many case officers were there!in | &. 1g Cuban operations? | = re Mr. Shaw. Probably. just three, three or four, I am not 2 13 Mr. Goldsmith. There were three case officers,probably = | four? é 39 Mr. Shaw. At. least three, yes. Dave and Ray and myself. | a) | ° Mx. Goldsmith. Was thereaatfourth? ot Tyg © S27 3 | Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I cannot recall, offhand, who | 72 |else was there. | Wait a minute. was there, as a researcher -- | | | 23 i what was it called? Research analyst. i i i ' SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 45 ALSERSON REPORTING COMPANY
oy ("3 Oo sates eat a: Mr. Goldsmith. I am interested now only in case officers. Uae 1-45 a I..do-have avlist»here, réferred.-to-~as CIA: 169-70% which ‘has a list of Agency employees. Would you please examine that + bt io wn ct (Pause) nm How did you four divide up your responsibilities? 5 4 Mr. Shaw. Okay. ; | wt ee iL . } = yt Perhaps there would have been myself, Dave <  , +Phillips and’ | = ii i ™ of : a 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Was | a case officer? | a ; re Mr. Shaw. | lwas not. considered -- yes, I guess | Z ,. | she was a case officer. I do not know what cases she handled. ee a) 3 $ , | She did more of what we call INTEL analyst work. She had is 8 i io 2 |, | officer rank, I believe. I believe she was a GS- -9 or -ll or | z , | something. I do not remember. = ed But Peagy; the girl I mentioned awhile ago, was not there | as 2 Funtil 1965. That was about it. “A ir The ranking would have been David Phillips, myself, : = 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. How did you divide up your responsibilities? = 2 | Mr. Shaw. Let me interject. Jack Stewart was there, but | 4: {he was not in Mexico City. tet 1 . DOR oo _ “ep int Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. s ‘ e Mr. Shaw. We were given certain agents to handle and we et 4 /& gee to z+: ihandled those agents, and Dave Phillips would decide what OOF ALSERSON Soe Be Baur HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 46 ALDER 5 R MA
gy 3 a3 23 Ky oe SE i 1-46 irs oy =F > other activities he would pass around. I notice -- | | ty i 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. Whichswere those other activities? re) Mr. Shaw. Anything that might come to light. tnat Dave ; {| a | \ i ons -- an ad hoc requirement;,or something like that, he j ! i i \ 3 a might ask any of us to help out, or somebody else might ask | t ; i rs 5 us to do something. I went out and helped surveil'a meeting | g 7 Jone time for one of these quys down here. ‘It had nothing to | 8 ya with Cuban Ops. | : | Mr. Goldsmith. What procedures did the four of you | rood ri ‘ = 0 | establish for reviewing photographs? = Ho Mr. Shaw. The only procedure that was established was a A . = 12 | route the photographs and show them to any agent, personnel, | il : id | who might be in a position to identify the persons in the : : \< | photographs. 7 | : is Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of you identify all the photographs = fin the Cuban Operation Branch? | 4 i7 | Mr. Shaw. I do not know. : : af Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a system to this? | wn yo | E 9 | Mr. Shaw. If there was, I did not set it up. - When I got | S ® | snotosrare I would show them to LITAMIL-9 and have him tell | me ime who they were and I would write a contact report and submit | py Oe | co ca “2 Lit to my Chief, who was Dave Phillips. . . . | I would assume that probably did the same | thing with his agents. V. , ! | i bd € Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, unless there was a system for  SEGRET nas : : NY Tt Soe AM HW 50955 DocIld:32277214 Page 47 ALQERSON REFORTING COMPANY i
fea a Wm) Pe mi has 1-47 ate OF SeGe i on . | reviewing the photographs, you had no way of knowing that © 3+ |all of the photographs were being reviewed by you and other Cuban Operations. case officers? and © 4 Mr. Shaw. I had no way of knowing. I was seeing all the : = ; | photographs, that is true. I assumed I did. 5 7 e Mr. Goldsmith. You had no way of knowing that? S y Mr. Shaw. . Not unless I would have gone to pick them up o 3 | from the man who took them and developed them, which I did not ¢ Mr. Goldsmith. With regard to the transcripts, did you have any procedure for insuring that ailceof the transcripts VASULHGTON , were being reviewed? Mr. Shaw. Did I have a procedure? No. The station BUT LDENG, ta REPORTERS # routed the transcripts to the various officers. Winn Scott quite often routed them. I notice you had a transcript some- tn where here ~~ wu, Mr. Goldsmith. We will look at the transcripts later on. § 7) -£ 19 | specific officer. = re Mr. Goldsmith. Were all of the transcripts pertaining to. | Cuban operations that were sent to the station reviewed by at 724 least one of the Cuban operations case officers? Mr. Shaw. I do not know. nN 4-2 ; _ Mr. Shaw. Winn Scott quite often routed those to a | | | Mr. Goldsmith. Was Mr. Scott a very demanding man? i wry Mr. Shaw. What do you mean by "demanding"? __ SEORET 2E> ORT: NG COM PANS Na iH HW 50955 Doold: 49977914 Page 48
SEGRE: | Mr. Goldsmith. Did he expect his employees to work hard 1-48 | operations case officers reviewed all of the transcripts? 2 | and to perform thorough, competent work? | 1 | Mr. Shaw. I assume he did. He never said so in so many + joe. | 2 5 | It was my understariding that until he was remarried he ~ 7 | é — long hours in the Embassy, before I got there. Sometimes 1 E 7 he had people in there at 9:00 o'clock at night. 2 : Mr. Goldsmith. Compardd to other station chiefs that : 5 | you had worked under, was he more demanding or less? : ad Mr. Shaw.. I would not say he was any more. He expected | S ; | E work out of his people and got it. | = i i $ af Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that the Mexico City | : i uo, ; co = 4 station had one of the biggest telephone surveillance opera- = i : ' z . | tions in existence? | wt i . i : 5! Mr. Shaw. Certainly in Latin America. | | 5 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Any CIA station? r a Mr. Shaw. I don't*know about any CIA station. Certainly * | i z a jin Latin America. It ate up a lot of man hours. : i ! i - | Mr. Goldsmith. In light of the fact that Mr. Scott | ~ i i é 20 | apparently was a demanding man and that you had one of the -. | . ee surveillance operations in effect in Latin America, | a px? 72 | your testimony today is that you do not. know whether the Cuban * | | | i | @ 24 | Mr. Shaw. I do not.think that the prefacing was necessary. 4 : | ! bua tise ‘The latter part. of that, in which you asked me if I am aware SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 49 ALSERSON REPORTING CON egg 2 ERY
“that all of the transcripts of the Cuban Ops were examined 7} | by the Cuban Ops section, I would have to, again, say I do tw 3 | not know. ia 4 | (Discussion off the record.) = 2 Mr. Goldsmith. We just went off the record for a moment 5 , | because Mr. Shaw had a question about where his car was parked = 7am whether there would be any problem about that, and I | z , | indicated that I did not think there would be a problem. | “ | Mr. Shaw, do you recall who delivered the. photographs | : 1g | te the station, the tape from the survéillance opemation? | : a ‘Mr. Shaw. It was my understanding that the technician | : | pickea them up. Bob zambernardi would have picked them up | i a 1 from the aqent. . | = 7 You are talking of the Cuban Embassy now? - : A i : sl Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, and consulate. | : 3 | Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that. he would have : = ; | picked them up from the agent who took the photographs. The 5 13 | agent who took the photographs developed them, printed them, = i i 2 9 jand turned the prints: over to Mr. Zambernardi. That is the. way : 20 p I think it worked. : = 2 — | Mr. Goldsmith. How would you actually get to review the ! photographs? Who would bring them to you? Mr. Shaw. Usually I do not remember who brought them to i me. I have the impression it. may have been! but 28 I ‘could be wrong: Maybe Bob brought them to me. fT do not know. a: HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 50 ALQERSCON RESCRTNG COMPAR,
| But I would get a batch of photographs to go through. ae 2 | Mere Goldsmith. Who had reporting responsibility for : | passing along the information that had been obtained from the : @ . 4 photographs and the transcripts? | 2 | Mr. Shaw. There was little reporting that came out of ! 5 , | the photographs. Usually, it- yielded what we called operational | : 7 information rather than intelligence information, to enable us, 6 s | to develop a better understanding of who was in the area, of | ; 5 | who was in the Cuban. Embassy, and what they were up to. - ‘a As far as reporting intelligence that came from those, | 2 od it probably was reported by the reports section of the Embassy. s 2 Next to Winn Scott's office was the CA Chief's office and, : > 2 19 : next to that,-- I'm getting in the new embassy now. I don : = if Hota not remember where the report section was in the old embassy. : : a We had reports officers who actually repaired most of the : 14 reports from raw reports, if you will, reported by the case ! ~ i A il officers. , a 7 Again, I. would like to point out that these photographs : : | yielded very! little reportable intelligence. It was mostly = 29 operational intelligence. | : vem i Mr. Goldsmith. Understood. | <> pe 22 Who was George Monroe? 23 Mr. shaw.| was a former agent, Special. Agent} i co ; 4% of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.who retired or resigned, z= = ~ do not know how he left the Bureau, and worked in Mexico HW 50955 Docld:39277214 Page 51