rood) = ; - Date:10/0B/93 | Page:1 JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM bade AGENCY INFORMATION _ AGENCY : SSCIA RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10148 RECORDS SERIES : TRANSCRIPT. AGENCY FILE NUMBER : as 2 ED th GE YG 20 me SDD Gm Sm um am ets et HRD HD eth ERED END PRY fOED DAE) AREY HRD ED th EAN ORRE NH HRS aE MEE HRN ONLY GER EE, GED ED OH OE SG GE GU GU GO GI TH EH mE Gm Gh AE GE RW GR ww Gh GH GH am aD ax a am on om oo ORIGINATOR : SSCIA -FROM : “ TO: a* TITLE : TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL DATE : 05/30/75 PAGES : 168 SUBJECTS : MAHEU, ROBERT CASTRO ASSASSINATION CUBA HUGHES BISSELL VERONA VARONA HARVEY, WILLIAM ROSSELLI GIANCANA MAFIA TRAFFICANTE CIA ROWAN, DAN MCGUIRE, PHYLLIS DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED _ CURRENT STATUS : ; DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93 “O29 =} OPENING CRITERIA : R] - ITEM 1S F RESTRICTED HW 50955 Bocld:32281988 Page 1 ae
Date: 10/05/93 Page:2 JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM COMMENTS : Box 255 Folder 4 a*® [R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED HW 50955 DBocla: 32261936 Page 2
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 10 11 12 13 14: 15 16 17 18 19 20 el Re 235 24 25 Boctd: attorney, do you understand that? ’ 2261986 Page 3 TOP SECRET 2 Chairman Church. Would you please take the oath? Do you swear that everything you will testify to in these proceedings shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? | Mr. O'Connell. I do. TESTIMONY OF JAMES P. O'CONNELL Mr. Schwarz. Would you state your name? Mr. O'Connell. My name is James P. O'Connell. Mr. Schwarz. And what is your address? O'Connell .{% 333 Elsinore Avenue, Menean Mr. Schwarz. Before we proceed substantively let me just put on the record some matters. First, you understand that you have a right to counsel? Mr. O'Connell. I understand that. I just read it. Mr. Schwarz. And you should also be advised that you , have your rights under the Constitution, including your rights under the Fifth Amendment, if at any point you wish to assert whatever rights that you do have that are under those Constitutional provisions. Do you understand that? Mr.O'Connell. Yes. Mr. Schwarz. And if at any time you feel that you need an attorney you have the. right to ask for an TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 le een 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 20 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 29 HY 50955 Daoctd: TOP SECRET 43 pills? Mr. O'Connell. The man that created them is|-DEY ° Mr. Schwarz, .. Did.he hand the pills to you? Mr. O'Connell. Yes. | Mr. Schwarz. Did he know what the pills were for? Mr. O'Connell. I don't think so. Mr. Schwarz. But he knew they were illegal? Mr. O'Connell. He knew they were illegal. Mr. Schwarz. And were the pills not tried out on some experimental subjects in the U.S.? Mr. O'Connell. Yes. Mr. Schwarz. And proven to be lethal? Mr. O'Connell. Well, to the extent -- I will tell you that, we used them on hamsters, Mr. Schwarz. And. also monkeys? Mr. O'Connell. No, as far as I know, just the hamsters. Mr. Schwarz. But anyway, you knew they were lethal. Mr. O'Connell. Yes. Mr. Schwarz. And you handed them over to Rosselli? “Mr. O'Connell. Yes. ' Mr. Schwarz. And had the Technical Services made poison pills before as far as you know? Mr. O'Connell. As far as I know. I have no idea. This was my first experience with that sort of thing. res TOP SECRET
oe | TOP SECRET 98 3 eR , $ 1 your possession, that might give you a more accurate timing tha g e I am giving to you now. i 5 Mr. Madigan. We don't have it presently. i 4 Mr. O'Connell. I am sure it is over there. 5 Mr. Wides. With regard to the discussion of authorization 6 would it have been following on Mr. Madigan's point, that this 7 was a fairly serious and unusual operation that you were given, 8 and that you would have asked, is this authorized? or how did 9 the question of Mr. Dulles authorizing it come up, as best you 10 | recall? 11 Mr. 0'conhell. I told you, I knew that Mr. Dulles -- I wa 12 told that Mr. Dulles had authorized it, I can't say quite when 13 it happened, but I know I was told. WARD & PAUL 14 _ Mr. Wides. You testified this morning -- I don't want 15 to put words in your mouth -~ I thought you testified that you 16 were sure that Mr. Edwards told you at this meeting when he first 7 gave you the assignment that you were not sure that Mr. Bissellls 18 also mentioned that when you later met in your office. 19 Mr. O'Connell. I would stick with that, yes. I think it 20 probably was when I -- when Colonel Edwards called me he 21 said, this probably has the blessing of the DCI. 202 Mr. Wides. Do you know if/D¥ 23 was head of the Technical Services Division at the time, was 24 || Witnessing about this? 410 First Street, S.E:, Washington, D.C. 20003 25 Mr. O'Connell. I wouldn't want to bet my life that he TOP SECRET. HY 50955 DBocld:$2276015958 Page 5
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 il le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 25 24 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 HY 50955 Bocld: TOP SECRET 99 wasn't. But he was at a meeting when the bills were delivered, and/ Dy “iy Mr. Wides. But you don't recall whether you ever knew = Geichlerg came over to Colonel Edwards'office. knew what it was in connection with as distinct from merely knowing it was a lethal pill, is that right? Mr. O'Connell. I can't say ~- to my personal knowledge, the discussion never came up when I was there. I don't think Wetuatce® PEE “Bas re ree fiChMiey is any dumny, and et are eet he is a dummy, and I don't think! I think they had a general idea. But as far as I know they were never officially told. Mr. Wides. To your knowledge, before you went overseas no one else in the office of Security, Mr. pannerinan, Mr. White or Mr. Hall, none of those men or anyone else knew about the project, only yourself and Mr. Edwards? Mr. O'Connell. Well, I would say this, to my knowledge they were never briefed. However, I think I brought up an incident this morning where Colonel Edwards was on leave and Cofionel King called Mr. Bannerman, who was his deputy, and assumed that Bannerman knew all about it and starte talking about it, what are we going to do about this -~- I don't know what the conversation was about. And Bannerman called in and said, what was this all about? Mr. Wides. This was in 1962 before you left? Mr. O'Connell. Yes. It was while I was up in the office. And I said, I don't have the authority to brief you on it. 22761988 page 6 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET - 1 Mr. Wides. Were you ever aware, whether you were formall g e notified or just got a rumble or heard through the grapevine, é 5 that the CIA was getting some information about these threats, i 4 or some information about groups who might pose a threat in the 5 Washington area, not from Bureau sources or military sources, 6 but from CIA sources, did you ever hear any rumble of that kind ? Mr. O'Connell. Yes. 8 Mr. Wides. What did you hear? 9 Mr. O'Connell. The only way I got involved in it was that 10 Howard Osborn would have a nine o'clock meeting every 11 morning with his deputies. : 12 And they had a proprietary organization in the Office of 13 Security which I think had informants. ‘ 14 Now, I don't know their identities, but it would come out 15 in the meeting, and they would have some names for them. I “16 couldn't tell you what they were. 19 Mr. Madigan. What was the proprietary called? 18 Mr. O'Connell. The name that strikes me -- and I ~ 19 know part of it, but I couldn't tell you exactly -- I think it 0 2( 21 Mr. Madigan. F % . aN bo Mr. O'Connell something like that. : 23 Mr. Wides. You say you think they had informants? ; 24 Mr. O'Connell. They obviously did, I guess, because the Fs 3 25 way this would come out, so-and-so advised at a meeting last TOP SECRET. HW 50955 DBocld: 327261936 Page 7
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 CoB Ce ) ow av) led 10 lil 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 TOP SECRET — 128 night. Mr. Wides. If you associate that with you must have been told more than just, we have an informant. How would it be discussed at the meeting, through this proprietary we have access to information? Mr. O'Connell. No, it usually would be the Deputy Director .that that was under. And that was under OIS. Mr. Wides. Victor White? Mr. O'Connell. Victor White. Mr. Wides. And what would he say about howls fitted into the picture? Mr. O'Connell. That never came up. I just drew that conclusion, that they had potential. Mr. Wides. Why would you assume that they used a proprie- tary as opposed to just having some agents penetrate a group? Why would you think in terms of their using thef -- Mr. O'Connell. I can tell you what I think. . First of all, I wouldn't want to use government employees. Mr. Wides. Why couldn't the CIA personnel just run agents who would be -- | Mr. O'Connell. That is in fact what they were doing. . These people that were proprietary were not CIA employees. They a C_ were pon ract teams. Mr. Wides. Why would you have thought that they would have gone the route of using the proprietary people as opposed to TOP SECRET WW 50955 Docld: 32261908 Page @
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 oO 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ee 23 24 29 TOP SECRET 143 Did you have any knowledge during the 1970-1971 time frame of any effort outside of Florida with regard to Cubans to fire On the Keys or on the Florida area there with a boat that would be disguised as a Russian boat, which was really a group of people, some of whom were assets of the Agency? Mr. O'Connell. No. Mr. Madigan. You never heard of anything like that? Mr. O'Connell. Nothing of that, no. Mr. Madigan. Did you ever run across a fellow by the name of Jerry Henning in your dealing with Roselli and Maheu? | Mr.O'Connell. No. Mr, Madigan. You never heard of the name? Mr. O'Connell. I never heard of the name. Mr. Madigan. Did you handle the Agency contact with Mr. Maheu about having him coordinate or set up or be involved Mr. O'Connell. Yes. Mr. Madigan. What was your involvement in that? Am I right about 1959? Mr. O'Connell. It could be. There were two different Occasions. - SS EN Mr. Madigan. What is your recollection as to the dates? TOP SECRET BDoclad: 3232681953 Page 3
HY Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 0955 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19° 20 el 22 23 24 25 Docld: 322519868 Page 10 i TOP SECRET 144 Mr.O'Connell. Well, the first one was - about 1959, Mr. Madigan. And how did that come about? Why did it got you in the Office of Security as opposed to -- Mr. O'Connell. Just like this other one came down from the DDP, it came from the Division, as I recall it. And was coming into the -- Mr. Wides. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr, Madigan. What did your first contact with Maheu with regard to this project involve? Mr. O'Connell. Well, the request came to the Security. Mr. Madigan. It came down to you? Mr. O'Connell. It came through Colonel Edwards. Mr. Madigan. To you? Mr. O'Connell. ves | Mr. Madigan. Mr. O'Connel Mr. Madigan. So did you contact Maheu directly? Mr. O'Connell. Yes. Mr. Wides. In this instance you were talking about TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET 1 Mr.0'Connel1| Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 ~J Co 10 ll Mr. Madigan. dain Mr. O'Connell. (ERS ESE OSS~*~*~«~ Pee 13 WARD & PAUL 14 a 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 & 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 TOP SECRET HY 50955 DBocld: 322761986 Page ii
TOP SECRET. 146 1 Mr. O'Connell. {kf Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 Ll le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 Mr. Madi . 15 Yr adigan Mr. O'Connell 16 1? 18 iH — 19 20 Mr. O'Connell. eal 22 Mr. O'Connell. 20 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 S TOP SECRET HW 350955 DBocld:322781938 Page 12
147 | ‘TOP SECRET Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 | 5 Mr. Madigan. And was that the end of that particular 6 project that you recall? ne ee 7 Mr. O'Connell. That was the end of it, g@x Gate XCED) a ek 10 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 Mr. Wides. 17 18 Mr. O Connell. ayes 19 Mr. Wides || | meneame Gee, BO L : t 2] Mr.O'Connell. , Mr. Wides. 29 eeumetyen in ene ae TOP SECRET | | ' 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 Mr. O'Connell.. , HY 50955 DBocld:322781988 Page 13
Pnone (Area 262) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL wwe, 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 11 12 13 29 Bocld TOP SECRET Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Wides. a Mr. O'Connell. Mr. Wides. 2322781988 Mr. O'Connell. Spi tenewe TOP SECRET Page i14
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 TOP SECRET 9 Mr. Madigan. Yousaid there was a. second instance. 10 li 12 Mr. 0 Connell | 13 14 £ WARD & PAUL 15 17 18 Mr. 19 20 Mr. Madigan. | Mr. Madigan, __? 21 22 Mr. o'Connel1. | 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 20° Nee 50955 Dacld: 322601986 Page 15 - TOP SECRET
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 ll 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 295 HW 50955 Docld: TOP SECRET 150 2261933 Page 16 Mr. Madigan. Did Maheu set that up? Mr. O'Connelll. Yes. | Mr. Mdigan. Both the original contact and the later. party in San Francisco? | Mr. O'Connell. Yes. Mr. Madigan. And were those the only two times now that he was involved in the operations’ field? Mr. O'Connelll. Oh, no. He did a lot of other things. Mr. Madigan. Let me ask you this question. When Maheu was having his problems with the authorities, was there any reference back to his involvement in those kind ° activities, or was the only discussion about his role in the so-called assassination plot? - Mr. O'Connell. Well, I am not even so sure that they got into that aspect of it. It was just that he was involved to the extent that he had set up the operation against Rowan, or he was the one that got in touch with DuBois to do it. Mr. Wides. When did you come back from overseas? Mr. O'Connell. July of 1965. Mr. Wides. After you came back did you learn of a time, either after you came back or very shortly before you came TOP SECRET
al HY WARD & PAUL Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 0955 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 | 20 24 20 Docld: 323761958 Page i? TOP SECRET 7 159 veillance? Mr. O'Connell. Never, to my knowledge he’ never got involved in that, officially or otherwise. Mr. Wides. Or surreptitious entry? Mr. O'Connell. He did one surreptitious entry for us once Mr. Wides. What were the specifics of that? Mr. O'Connell. There were a group of[_—__—sJstudents. And they were staying in a rooming house up there right outside of Georgetown some- here. And one of the students| said that one of the group was acting very suspiciously, taking a lot of notes where they were not supposed to be taking notes,or. certainly after operational briefings, and he would go back to his room and he would write voluminous notes. And he thought that was very strange that this guy was not acting as he should. And that aroused the suspicion _| And they wanted to know whether we would get in and photo- graph what he was writing to see whether he was really violating his agreement. So I called Maheu and he went up to the rooming house, an he went to the people who owned the house and asked if they ‘had a room to rent and she had one. And he did know where the students were staying. And she showed him one room. And TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20063 HW 50955 10 11 12 13 “14 15 16 L? 18 19 20 21 22 29 24 25 TOP SECRET veo he said, anything up on thenext floor? And as luck would have it, she had the adjacent room. So he brought what would appear to be a suitcase up there, which was his photographic equipment. And we knew the students were in school, and Was going to alert us if ~ _they came back, so he wouldn't get caught in the act. And he went in, it was a very simple matter. It was a tin box that he could open with a paper clip and he took it oht and photographed it, and put the case back in the drawer and locked up and left. But { ___|was a gal, a woman. And “she was looking at one part of the school over there. And this guy comes out the. back door. And as Maheu was coming down the stairs the students were coming up, with amatter of maybe a split second timing. Mr, Madigan. This wasn't Mendoz? Mr. O'Connell... No. Mr. Wides. What period was this that we are talking about? Mr. O'Connell. This woulda have been about 1955, Mr, Wides. And other than that, and the two incidents involving female companioship, what other kinds of sensitive things would he undertake? Was that in the period that you were paying him 500 a month? Mr. O'Connell. We stopped paying the 500 way back when he TOP SECRET Docld: 322781988 Page i168
Phone (Area 202) 544-6006 10 -ll lé 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el ee 295 24 410 First Street, S-E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 29 HW 50955 bBocld: oe TOP SECRET 162 nature as opposed to routine? Mr. O'Connell. We had word that they wanted to -- Sor eS Ree aMisited 3 “the, “KretiTin; andgwe ere mee oe gee sass ee And this was all done by people that knew generally what they looked like. Now, we got Bob to make that film. sos EyConrectugel, ROE 7 epee HERE ESEGEE Wad EGE GS isbn ee Soi ee Pes : i ck Aeneas . ier: d oo Mr.O'Connell. pe “dOnt “know whether th they “knew that-the-¥y @Séviets had made:the film...But the purpose of the exercise / TOP SECRET 22601986 Page 19
TOP SECRET 163 — OE he 1 Mr. Wides. @.ydu-mean" they thought that the RusSians § 2 fC nad made a fame? Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 5 Mr. O'Connell fiYes, .to embarrass 4 Mr. Madigan. And that was accomplished as far as you know? 5 Mr. O'Connell. The film was made, but they never did 6 release it, because things started to get better with the 7) leader, and they felt that they wouldn't use it. 8 Mr. Madigan. Were Agency facilities used by Maheu for 9 the production of this thing? 10 Mr. O'Connell . No. I hired-a small independent studio i ll Los Angeles, 12 Mr. Madigan. And did Agency officials fly out there, 13 the ones that knew about the backdrop and all that? How was Re 14 that done? - 3 WARD & PAUL - 15 Mr. O'Connell. It seems to me that they were just -- 16 at this point I am not too sure whether they superimposed it, 7 I guess is the word, with that background. I am not so 18 sure at this point, it has been so long ago. That was away in . 19 the mid-fifties. 20 Mr. Wides. Could we get back to the question that we had F 21 started on, which was the files and where they would exist? : 202 You said that the operational files from all of your dealing 7 23 with him would be in the Family Jewels, because they were all gD : 24 |’ sensitive ‘admissions. : 25 Mr. O'Connell. Yes. TOP SECRET HW 50955 DBocld: 327819396 Page 20 , *
Phone {Area 202) 544-6000 10 ll 12 135 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 20 21 22 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 20 HY 50955 Bocld: 19° TOP SECRET 166 Mr. O'Connell. No. Mr. Wides. Or Max Gonzales. Mr. O'Connell. No. Mr. Wides. While you were down there -- and this May overlap the question that. Mr. Madigan asked before, but I think it is a little more ~~ did you have any. awareness of any other efforts apart from Mr. Verona by Cubans in connec- tion with the Agency to try and assassinate Castro? Mr. O'Connell. No, none whatsoever. Mr. Wides. I don't have any other questions. Mr. Madigan. In your operational activities with Mr. Maheu, particularly in the New York area, did you ever have con tact with a private investigator by the name of A. J. Woolston-Smith? Mr. O'Connell. No, I never heard of him. Mr. Wides. Do you know why there were two field offices in New York, two iffices in Manhatten? What was the difference? Mr. O'Connell. The cover. 235 Mr. Wides. Were there two offices? Mr. O'Connell. Why, they had them, it just grew like Topsy. They had two offices in Washington, and they had two offices in New York. And really the basis ~- it was that that was the way they started, they figured they needed two TOP SECRET 241980 Page 21
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL end nash 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Boclda: 3027681968 Page 22 TOP SECRET 167 different type covers because of the type of work they were doing. Mr. Wides. What would the New York offices do as dis- tinct from the Manhattan offices, or vice versa? Mr. O'Connell. Nothing. They were basically investigative offices. | Mr. Wides. They just happened to have two? Mr.O'Connell. They had two. | The Manhattan field office. And then they eventually merged. Now they are over on| I think. Mr. Wides. Thank you very much. That concludes the sessio And we appreciate your staying so long. (Whereupon, at 1:25 p.m., the hearing was concluded.) TOP SECRET