478-10002-10092 AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO:. TITLE: DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : ‘DOCUMENT TYPE : CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : v9.1 HW 50955 BDocld: 32204970 JFK Assassination System _ Date: Identification Form Agency Information ROCKCOM 178-10002-10092 SCHWARZER-MANFREDI FILES S-M (IV-DD) RICHARD HELMS Document Information ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION DEPOSITION OF RICHARD MCGARRAH HELMS (SELECTED PAGES) 04/23/1975 44 AMLASH ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES ASSASSINATIONS, DIEM ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS CIA CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS EDWARDS, SHEFFIELD GIANCANA, SAM HARVEY, WILLIAM HELMS, RICHARD JOHNSON, LYNDON ‘OPERATION MONGOOSE ORGANIZED CRIME PFIAB ROSELLI, JOHNNY DEPOSITION ' Top Secret Ic Redact 07/01/1993 Selected section from much longer deposition. 109 Page 1 8/27/20
178-10002-10092 C | S-77 | PRES IDEM IS coms Stay Ca =-D B) (ON CIA ACTIVITIES Deposition of: RICHARD MceGARRALE HELMS Wed Y, 4pril- 23, 1975 Langley, Virginia AUVddIT duos “HY GTWYaAS FHL KOoWs KAODOLOHG WASHINGTON, D.C. FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA 4055 Chain Bridge Rd., 22030 “~~ 410 First Street, S.E., 20003 Phone . Phone (202) 544-6000 . (703) 273-2400 HW 50955. Docld: 32204970 Page 2
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 ‘1 |) TESTIMONY OF: TOP SECRET. CONTENTS 2 ||Richard McGarrah Helms. . 2 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 29 DoctTd: 32204970 NUMBER . FOR IDENTIFICATION Helms‘ No. 1 165 Helms! No. 2 166 Helms’ No. 3 & 4 Helms' No. 5. 187 (AFTERNOON SESSION = p. 109) EXHIBITS . 167 es ae + oa, TOP SECRET Page 3 quod “HY ATWYGS AHL WOYA AdODOLOHAa
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 il Le 13. 14 ' WARD & PAUL 15 ‘16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 28 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 TOP SECRET | a with the Agency of the development or discussions of any plans concerning the possible assassination of Patrice Lumumba? - | A, I don't recall anything about any plans to assassinate Patrice Lumumba . I know that Lumumba was a controversial figure at the time. I know whatever year this was -- was in the Eisenhower or the Kennedy era that Lumumba was riding high. Q I believe that the era would have been in the era of 1959, '60. I believe he was killed in early '61. A. I remember later hearing all kinds of allegations about Lumumba and how he had been killed and why he had been killed. I remember also the fact that the _- it was abundantly clear that the Agency had had nothing to do with his demise but whether there was a plot on the Agency at sometime or another to try to bring about his demise 1 was not familiar wit it. I want to say here I will obviously do the very best t can with my recollection but when you consider how much has bee in the newspapers about a number of things in the last period o AUWdaIT Gaod “WY ATWHaS FHL NOU AdODOLOHA years it is pretty hard to stick in time when you first heard about something. All I am trying to convey here is I was not as far as I know privy to any ongoing plan to get rid of Patrice Lumumba by ‘assassination. Q Now, the dictator of the pominican Republic, Mr. of Trujillo, was killed on or about May 30, '61. Prior to that time were you aware of the fact that there had been a request TOP SECRET BW 50955 Docld: 32204970 Page 4
HY Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 0955 Dominican Republic? mae) Ll 12 15 140 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 20 TOP SECRET as made of the Agency to deliver guns to dissidents in the A I don't believe I was familiar with it at the time although I can't say. I certainly heard about the gun business later because I had occasion to go back when President Johnson asked me about this episode at one time to look into the records to find out about Trujillo. I could find no evidence that the Agency. had been responsible for his demise but I dia find evidence at the time that there was an opposition group in the United States Government was anxious to have the Agency support and assist and I think I may very well have known about the opposition group at the time. i have no recollection any longer that I was privy to the sending of any guns fotto the Dominican Republic and if I was, I don't recall they were ever identified as being designed-to kill Mr. Trujillo. I know there was a desire on the part of AUWdaIT Gaod -yY ATWuAS FHL WOoUd AdODO.LOHdA whatever Administration was in power then, they didn't like Mr. Trujillo. They like Mr. Duvalier arid certain others but I was a aware of no attempts to bring about his death through Agency. assets. | | I think since you’ have raised this question of an assassi- nation I would like to say something asa generality here. Dearly in the game when Colonel Galloway was my boss in what was then known as the Office of Special Operations, I don't even recall any more in what connection this came up but he said TOP SECRET Boctlda: 322704970 Page 5
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW AS09545 10 ii le 14 15 16 1? 18 19 "20 el Re: 20° 24 25 _ there was no possibility whatever that the United States Govern ment could develop a capacity to kill people because you could to me one day that the Agency. should certainly have the capability to get rid of foreigners when required and that this had to be done secretly and you should never ask your boss for permission to do these things, and so forth, 1 remember at the time arguing with him about this and saying that I though. that never keep it a secret. Sooner or later, maybe after five year ten years, Lord knows what, someone would come in or write some Congressman and say. the Agency was responsible for killing so. and so and aside from the morlity of it I felt it was impracti- cal for the US Government to do something like that at this tim I felt that way all the time I was Director. I neverjin my lif “ad GIVER FHL WOUd AdOTOLOvAa towards killing, murder, assassination of anybody of whom I am aware, and so.I can.only tell you that as the years have’ gone _ by, as I say, quite aside from moral asepcts of this thing, the..improbabilityof ever being able to do anything like that as an American-Government agency has become less and less viable. In fact, I have often said to associates that there are three things that.the American people would never stand for. One is assassination, two is rape, and three is dealing in drugs. So that I didn't want anybody in the Agency thinking that any of those things were going to be satisfactory to mee | QO Mr, Manfredi asked you about some notes in which ther was the mention of three handwritten names by you. One was TOP SECRET DBoclda: 32204970 Page 6
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 12 13 14 WARD & PAUL 15 16 1 18 19 20 21 22 £4 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 cases with me and I thought that since he had done it he might Lo TOP SECRET = tse | Castro, one was Trujillo, and do. you remember what the third was? | A, Diem. Q And I think you have already testified about that. A. I just did, because President Johnson had raised these have raised them with President Nixon and early in his Admini-~ stration I wanted to get him straightened out on this... | You know, to this day I am not persuaded that President Nixon doesn't still believe that the Agency didn't have. somethin to do with the demise of President Diem of Vietnam and there is absolutely no evidence of this in the Agencyrrecords and the whole thing has been, I mean, rather -=- what is the word I want “-~- heated by the fact: that President Johnson used to go around saying that the reason President Kennedy was assassinated was that he had assassinated President Diem and this was just es justice. “He certainly used to say that in the early days of his Presidency and where he got this idea from I don't know. I don't know how many of you had the privilege of trying to argue. with Presidents about things like that but you tend to be a loser. Q Let me just digress on that one point for the moment. Before we get back to Mr. Castro. After the election in Chile, .|" I believe it was in 1970 where Allende derived a plurality, wf: President Nixon called you or contacted you to ascertain if TOP SECRET HW 350955 BoclTd: 32204970 Page 7 wt AdODOLOHG “ad GQTWaaD FHL AMVdHGIT quog
HY Prone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 0955 - 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el Ro 24 25 ‘anyone else in the White House that the Agency funnel funds and TOP SECRET anything. :could be done to prevent his envestiture, that is, Allende's investiture by the Chilean legislature. Do you”. remember’ that call? Q Or contact? A. I knew this subject had come up but I thought it came up in the context of the 40 Committee deliberations. I don't recall a conversation with President Nixon, I don't say I neve had one. I just don't recall it in that form, Q Do you recall any request made by the President or also even perahps submachine guns to see if something could be done to prevent the legislature from electing him? A Well, certainly they wanted. the legislature not to elect President Allende. The Nixon Administration certainly didn't want that. “My recollection of the circumstance, though, ddil Gdod “ad GIwaaS FHL NOUd AdODOLOHd at. the time was that having investigated this, we came to the conclusion there was no-way to prevent his investiture. And I do not recall anything about machine guns. -O- Or guns of any kind? A I don't recall anything about guns. I recall a desir to bribe, see if it was posgible to bribe enough representative who were going to participate in the election. That was a non-y |" available’ affair. There was no entity in Chile that showed the slightest interest in upsetting the Government or the results” TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 8
on L Phone (Area 202) 544-6060 WARD & PAUL ~ sence 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 11 12. 13 14 ~ 15 ‘16 1”? 180 “19 20 21 Re RO: 24 25 the Forty Committee? not to tell the Secretary of State, you would have followed: "1 TOP SECRET of the election and,although there was a great deal of pressure to do something about it, I don't recall our finding any way that we could have done it. Q- Do you recall that there was. avspecific direction from the President that you not advise the Secretary of State of this request from the White House? Do you ever recall that being done? “A No, I don't recall his saying it in this connection but, Mr. Belin, let me just say that this was a favorite device of President Nixon, Don't tell so and so. Be sure you keep this secret. So I am not questioning the fact that he might very well have said it. On the other hand, I don't recall it in this connection. Q In what connection do you recall his telling you not to tell the secretary of State about it? A Oh, I think these were things having to do with dart quod “d dIWYaS FHL NOW AdOOOLOHG Vietnam and Southeast Asia,as best I recall. Q Do you recall his ever telling you not to tell any-. thing about this particular subject involving Chile to A No. I don't remember that. Q I assume that if the President would have told you the direction of the President. A Oh, of course, TOP SECRET Boclda: 322704970 Page 3
HY ' Phone (Area 202) 544-6000. WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 0955 10 i. 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board you would follow his ‘sight committees you would follow his direction there? TOP SECRET “Q- And if he told you not to tell the Forty Committee you would have followed his direction on that? A Yes. After all, these devices are part of his office. Q And if he told you not to tell the President's direction there? A Yes. I think there would be no question about it. He was my boss. Q And if he told you not to tell Congressional over- A I never recall having discussed that with him, not informing the Congress. I don't recall any conversations of that kind. | Q Well, if he would have told you that oo A. Nor do I recall any conversations about the ddr quod “ad GIWaAS FHL WOUT AdODOLOHA President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. If you have evidence that he asked me not to tell them something I won't challenge it but the President's Foreign Advisory Board quite frankly, never loomed in his mind large enough | to be, I don't think, as a considered factor. Q The Committee was not performing a true oversight function. Would that be a fair statement? , yd A | The President's Foreign Intelligence Board? | “ Q Yes. : TOP SECRET Boclda: 322704970 Page 10
oh 3 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 wo 10 Ll Lz WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 206003 25 organization. Intelligence Advisory Board ~~ -how would you ~~ 13 TOP SECRET A No. I don't want to identify myself with that statement because they had their own way that they thought they were doing their job and I assume they thought they were doing it and I never regarded them as an oversight Q Well, if the President would have told you to Yefrain from commenting about a subject to the Foreign A I would have found no strain with that at all. Q And if he would have told you not to tell a particular thing to a Congressional oversight committee, A I don't-know. I might have argued with him about that depending upon what it was, because there you have a different kind of a situation. After all, the President is dart duod *ad ATwaaD AHL NOYT AdODOLOHAa the boss. of the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. He. appoints it and they are his creatures, and so is the Secretary of State, and so are his assistants in the White House. After all, under our system of Government the President rides supreme over the Executive Branch, so if he tells somebody there not to tell somebody else he has got every right, I assume, to do so. With a Congressional committee you are under a different! Situation because there you have a coordinate branch of the Government where his writ does not obtain, necessarily. TOP SECRET HY 50955 DBocld: 322704970 Page il
mbh 4 © HW 450955 Phone (Area 262) 544-6000 _ WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 10 il. 12 13 | 14 15 16 1? 18 19 21 22 20 R4 25 certainly have an argument with him ‘about it because after ‘being my boss, but I mean, I wouldn' t feel very happy about TOP SECRET Q And so what you are saying is to the extent that there is a Legislative Branch of the Government, that would basically depend. upon what the-particular request of the President was? A Yes, and I think if I thought he was asking me to deprive them of something they had a right to have, I would all, I have to live with both,or a Director has to live with both. WOU AdOooLond _ Q And hypothetically if you argue with him and you do not convince him then what would you disposition be? | L A Well, that would be pretty tough over an issue of that kind. I suppose in “the end I would have to comply, he it and I don't recall having had that kind of a trauma. Q I want to now turn to the Castro situation, «...:5: xUWdaIT quod ‘Yu GIwagzD AHL Ambassador Helms.. When approximately did you first become — aware of the fact that there was an ongoing plan within the Agency to try and have Castro assassinated? A well, when you put it this way, I am not sure what you are referring to because during the years of the Kennedy Administration, there was a flat-out effort ordered by the White House, the President, Bobby Kennedy who was after? " all his man, his right hand in these matters, to unseat the” Castro government, to do everything possible to get rid of TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page i2
TOP SECRET ddi‘l quod °Y GIwag5 FHL woud ‘AdODOLOHA ons yi. | | | +s it by whatever device could be found and thatiwas the 7 reason for mounting this large..operation in Miami to work : ° on this very problem. And the Bay of Pigs was a part of. this . * effort and after the Bay 6f Pigs failed, there was even a. ° greater push to try to get rid of this Communist influence 90 i miles from the United States shores. a the business about the assassination of Castro, I have 8 ‘read about this in the papers. r'have heard about it from 9 associates. It has been kicked around whether this was a 10 viable proposition or not. I have no doubt it was written 11 into various plans as one of many options but I don't ‘recall 3 12 any successful effort that was made in this direction and Me : 12 . Since Castro is alive and apparently well in Havana, the $ 14 extent to which this was serious:I have never ascertained. 15 -] Q .Do you recall the fact that poison pills were: 16 developed to be delivered to assets or to people in Cuba for oll possible insertion in food ‘or drink to be eaten by 18 Castro?. g 19 A “Were poison pills taken to Cuba? I never knew any- & . : 20 thing about this. I don't reecall-ever having heard anything : a1 about poison. pills or any of that. What I want to say in this & ‘ ae connection is the fact that I never heard about this doesn't ; a5 mean that there were ma~y, many ideas discussed in the Agency ' z 24 about what to do with the Cuban Government but I don't a : 25 recall anything. like poison pills. | TOP SECRET HW 50955 Boclda: 32204970 Page i3
TOP SECRET st oh 6 > . ; . , bah eno nie 8 a , ; . . 7 3 Q Do you -= § a 3 + ; a — 8 A Whose idea was this? Do you have the information? 8 .& 3 , 2 Q Well --. : 4 | | A I recall somebody discussing with me one day an even crazier idea which had to do with some kind of. a thing 6 that might be planted on the beach where Castro walked in the - fey morning and it would blow. up when he put his foot on it, or. 2} 8 . — 4 . Q something. There were more nutty ideas. It reminded me of 2 9 the time of OSS when somebody wanted to get propaganda into ri 10 Germany and they discovered there was a herd of cows that & ii grazed in Germany and were milked in France, so they devised by Y 2) 3 12 . Some suppositories into which there were put a lot of 3 1S propaganda leaflets and those were put in the cows on the 2 0 . < - a . $ 14 theory they were being left on ‘the German side of the border ry 10 15 . when the cows were grazing and nobody would be the wiser. 6 md 4 16 So to say there are. nutty ideas cooked up in organizations . a L? like this is to tell the truth. 18 Is there any evidence, may I.ask, Mr.Belin, is ba 19 there any evidence in the record that any Director authorized Qo : Q | . g 20 || -what I can only refer to by the dictionary definition of ; 4 ¢ 3 “1 an assassination of a foreign leader? = Re | Q Well, there is evidence in the record, Ambassador v . rf 25 Helms, that there were plans made to try and assassinate , FE . . 7 , ee ye e. a4 Premier Castro of Cuba, that there were several series of ° — : : . . . ‘ 25 plans, and that the plans at at least one or two of the TOP SECRET HY 50955 DBocld:322704970 Page i4
bh 7 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 _ WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 1 stages included the delivery of poison pills developed in ° A They were delivered in Cuba?. 4 —Q -- of Castro, and that the pills were delivered to 6 . Mr. Roselli, who in turn delivered them to other people, 6 |. and that the pills eventually found their way to Cuba. 9 ee) A How do we know that? 6 8 Q There. are Agency reports that they were. We do not . 8 9 | have any first-hand information that they were, but there > ‘i 10 are -- there are memoranda which indicates that they were 8 il through, among others, disaffected Cubans. Si le | A Who returned to the United States and testified : 13 to the fact that they had received the pills: or something? oO 14 | “Q Who have not testified to anything. ° 16 A I see. | | z 16 9 That is one ~~ Fs Ly AD Who authorized this particular operation? S 18 Q ‘This is one of the areas: that we are trying to 19° ascertain and I suppose my first question along this line 20 was whether or not you had any knowledge of the existence of gli. such a plan. | Re A Not that I recall. 23 Q And you indicate that you never knew of such a al 24 ‘plan? ) 25 A ‘t don't recall any plan. TOP SECRET DocId:32204970 Page 15 the Agency to be placed in food or drink ~~ TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET © Qh 8 8 iL ; $ ‘Q + Bo you ever recall after you succeeded Richard Bisse]l, a 2 oP ee So : 3 that you were approached concerning whether or not you shonld g os advise John McCone of the existence of such plans or & 4 operations? a?) a Ap I was approached to do what? 6 7 - . - Q As to whether or not Mr. McCone should be briefed y about the existence of such a plan or plans? 3 A This is after the fact? Or before the fact? Or in % the process? 0 Q During the fact. eS ole il . "A You mean I had replaced Bissell and somebody in the a 12 . | 7 3 Agency came to me and said should we tell Mr.McCone about a : F 13 7 7 a Q previously authorized plan? a z L4 Q Yes. Do you recall that at all? ; o 15 | & A I don't recall it. I am sorry. H 16 : , . oe Maye oo Q Do you recall ever discussing this with William rg 1? . | Harvey? 18 | . ; ; A I don't know. I discussed hundreds of things with 3 19 Harvey when he was working on the Cuban problem. I don't ° . . ; : 3 20 “recall this. I recall a great deal to do with Harvey about : 5 a1 Roselli but I don't recall. any conversation with Harvey * Re about talking to Mr. McCone about Roselli because Harvey- 3 zo when he became in charge of the Cuban business, and so forth,. & - ° ea that whole Cuban operation, picked up various things around . fo) : : . : . RO and about and among them was the ongoing contact with Roselli TOP SECRET HW 350955 DBocld:322704970 Page 16
TOP SECRET | 164 oh 9 dl which did not start, I believe, in the DDP. area. It started _ 5 2 in the Office of.Security, if I recollect, to what I found. 3 é 3 in the record at one time. I'believe it was Colonel Edwards 2 4 who had first to do with Roselli. 5 | Q I believe that is accurate. 6 i. | A And when Harvey acquired Roselli, we had an ongoing v7] liability and. I had been told he hddi:been asked to do these | 8 various things. and there was no way to do it except to try S 9 to hold his hand and I.was testifying earlier this morning, f 10 so for some years we had this Roselli albatross around our. 2 11} neck. 13 . my , 12 Q .Do you recall ever briefing or submitting any Va s 13 documents to John McCone concerning a memorandum with Robert : 44: Kennedy? Does this ring a bell with you at all or not? a 15 A Well, it seems -- I recall at some juncture it. was | g 16 -- sohebody made a decision that it would be advisable to a 17 brief Robert Kennedy as the Attorney General about the ‘ 1s existence of Roselli and various things that the Agency had . 19 had to do with him and I believe that -- this I have been ;. 20° told -- I have had my memory refreshed on this. I don't ; 21 want to mislead you... I have been told that it was Edwards : 92 and Houston who went down to brief the Attorney General, althougl. : 23 I am not 100 percent certain about that any more. But I YY © j 24 "know there was a memorandum for the record made at the time : : 2 25 because I have had reason to review it. TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32204970 Page if.
‘bh 10° { Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HWW 50955 ‘10 11 12 15 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 of the tChicago newspapers some years ago about this whole ‘them at that time. | 1, which appears to be a photostatic copy of a front-page -. _ stories. TOP SECRET Q - And who told you this? A. I don't recall. It may have been Houston,. may have © been Edwards at the time. I don't remember. But I remember I reviewed it when there was a story in the Chicago -- one Roselli business, that I asked for the records:and’.looked:at MR. BELIN: I am going. to mark an exhibit, if I can. You can call this, if you would: Helms! Exhibit 1. “(The document referred to was marked for identification, Helms' Exhibit No. 1.) | BY MR. BELIN: Q. I hand you what the reporter has marked Helms No. story from the Chicago Sun Times under date of August 16, dail Gud0d °H GTwaaD FHL NOWd AdOD0LOHA 1963, headlines "CIA Sought .Giancana. Help for Cuba Spying." I want you to examine this and see if perhaps that is what you had reference to in reference to the Chicago A It could very easily be. It looks just like what I recall came out at the time and I think somehow or other this name Sandy Smith sticks in my mind as being the writer: + of the article in qeustion. So I have no reason to doubt that* this is the article we are talking about. TOP SECRET Boclda: 32704970 Page 18
Co a i NN (. Phone (Area 202) 544-4000 ray) ~10 ii 12 & PAUL 13 WARD (14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S$.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 to the Director but he simply handled’ press inquiries. signature of Stanley J... Grogan dated August 16, 1963, “that. 25. TOP SECRET | @Q ‘Do you remember Stanley J. Grogan? AD ‘Yes. | Q He was one of your assistants? A . Stanley J. Grogan was in charge of the office here that dealt with the press. In other words, he was -- and Gus Thermers, one of his predecessors. His title was Assistant MR. BELIN: Mark Helms' No. 2. (The document referred to was marked ' for identification, Helms! Exhibit No. 2.) BY MR. BELIN: _ Q- I hand you what has been marked Helms' No. 2, which is a memorandum for the record with.a typewritten dart quod “a GIwWuaS AHL NOUA AdODOLOHA referring to a telephone call the previous. evening from. Sandy. Smith of the Chicago”Sun Times and ask if you ever saw that. before? AL. I don't know. There is no reason why I shouldn't hav geen it, if it was directed to:me. Is there no copy around with my initials on it as having:.seen. it? Q I have not searched all of the records concerning wat A Usually I initialed memoranda, or at least the cover sheets, or something, if they came to me. TOP SECRET HW 350955 Bocld: 327204970 Page 19
ah. HY ie Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 | WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 0955 10 ll (12 (13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ~-to what is marked as Helms! Exhibit No. 4, which is a memo- IWF JEUKGE I MR. BELIN: Mark Numbers 3 and 4. i (The documents referred to were mark for identification, Helms' Exhibit Nos. 3 and 4.) BY MR. BELIN: Q Handing you what has been marked Helms. Exhibit No. 3, which is a memorandum which appears to be prepared by _ you, also under date of August 16, 1963, I think that might have-your initials on it. And there.is a -~ that is attached randum for the records dated 14 May 1962, pertaining to Arthur James Balletti, et al. | | A Allright. I have read these. Q Do you have any refreshed recollection as to the ‘background of those, Ambassador Helms? | A > Well, I don't-understand what you mean by a refreshed recollection. 1 mean, at the time I was told that Roselli was trying to. get into Cuba. Whether I was told that this was an assassination plot, for which $150,000 was being projected, and so forth, I don't recall any more but I wasn't involved in the activity at the time and when I had to go back into the files to get this thing, you will see there tha I had to call Colonel Edwards to find out if there was any . ; y records of this, and so forth, so it was something in which I. i hadn't been involved and I obviously in recent years have TOP SECRET Docld: 322704970 Page 20 fo AUWAGIT. daod °u aTwaqo GHL KOWA KdODOLOHd wis
oh HY 13 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, O.C. 20003 0955 MD. Gl LO 11 Le 13 14 “15 16 1? 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 have never seen any evidence. ~ TOP SECRET 7 6B heard a great deal about the so-called Roselli assassination : but I have never heard anybody come and tell me. that anybody | had ever verified that it was any more. than conversation and I must»say to this very day nobody has showed me one scintilla of evidence that anything ever happened about it except conversation. | 9 The -—— A I am not saying it didn't.I am just saying I L HOYT AdODOLOHA Q | The document Exhibit 4 was a memorandum for the record which pertained to an oral briefing in which Mr. Housto and Mr. Edwards of the Agency briefed Attorney General Robert Kennedy. AS (Nods in affirmative.) Q Had you ever seen this memorandum for the record: ‘before today? A  °Well, I am relatively certain I must have seen it the day I sent it to the Director. Q Had you seen it before then? A I don't recall. - Q This memorandum for the record dated 14 May 1962, refers to a plan which was started in the fall of 1960 and which continued through April of 1961. Were you ever aware ° r that subsequent to that time there was a second plan which a began in late 1961 or early 1962 in which William Harvey TOP SECRET Bocld: 32704970 Page 21
bhl4 . TOP SECRET _ 169 2 : . . § i took over the plan? al e 2 A To do what? s 5 Q To try and assassinate FidelGastro. E . é 4 ‘A I don't recall ever any ~~ I mean, I recall a great 5 many .activities of Harvey but I don't recall an effort 6 to assassinate Castro as put that way. I mean, the dictionary te 7 definition. I am telling you they were trying to unseat his | S 8 entire government, so the fact that they were! trying to get 8 (| 9 rid of him is no argument but I don't recall any specific plan 0 10° or proposal. that waS approved to assassinate Castro. = il -  Q° °BDo-you remember any authorization on your part | 5 2 ‘12 for William Harvey to handle this ona special basis? : < , : ; 13 OA oh, I certainly remember the discussions with him rs 5 14 about Roselli and his Mafia types and the fact they were a 1s going to have to be handled on a special basis but.I.don't e 16 | recall any special basis being used to try to get them to e 17 | do an assassination. | 18 oo Q De you remember that sometime in April of 1962 Sheff e: 2 19 |. Edwards obtained your approval to have William Harvey get S — ; 20 -in touch with Roselli? :~ 21 A Well, that may be. : £2 | - Q Do you remember? 7 ul . ae ta : 25 A Because I certainly Know at some point Harvey oe : £4) took over Roselli. I don't remember at what time but I know | 3 “25 | he took “him over and for a long time handled him thereafter TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32204970 Page 22
oh 15 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 il le 13 140 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _Mr.McCone, would not be briefed: about’ this? briefed about: something. I mean, after all, one of the bases TOP SECRET . and reported these contacts to the FBI. We just had that albatross around our necks for a very long time indeed. I don't know when it finally ended but it seems to me it Was somé years. Q Do you remember any discussions with William Harvey in which one of the things agreed upon was that the DCI, A No, Iodon't recall any conversations: with Harvey ~~ or anybody else that.Mr.McCone shouldn't be briefed...I don't say they didn't take place. I just don't have any recollectia ‘of it. I can't think today why I would have not wanted him: on which this Agency has always operated was that the Director was privy to know anything that went on. That was established early in the game. Q Well, the Director -- . aWddIT daod °aY GIWaqS FHL Hows AdODOLOHA A Is there some evidence that I said no, don't tell ‘the. Director, or he shouldn't be briefed? Q Well, there has been testimony and there is documen- -tation that it was agreed between you: and Mr. Harvey not to brief the DCI. and I. wonder whether or not you have any recollection, No. 1, of whether or not that discussion was had and if.you do have any such recollection, as to why that " discussion might have been had.° A ‘No.I don't have any recollection of the discussion. TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 23
a TOP SECRET 8 : i Q Do you, remember any briefing of the DCI at any time: ~ q 2 prior to Helms' Exhibit. No. 3, the August 16, 1963? | $ ° A Let's see. Who would have been DCI then? John Z 4 . . . McCone? ° Q Yes. 6 A oT don't know. I don't recall any other discussion 7 with him on this subject. 8 Q- And on -- 9 A I don't say it didn't take place. I just don'e 10 recall any. | | | 11 Q Now, on August 16, 1963, you delivered this memorand 3 12 Helms' Exhibit No. 3, to Mr. McCone referring to Sam Giancana a 15 and you said this is an outgrowth of this Chicago Sun- 5 14 . Times story of also August 16, 1963, Helms' No. 1,.is that #8 correct? . | | 16 A Yes. LY Q Do you renember whether or ot you briefed him at 18 that time on the fact that Mr. Harvey had taken over the- 8 19 operation and the operation might have continued beyond the 8 ; : e0'| first stage with Mr. Giancana? : el. A. q have no recollection of this -- Ihave seen the ; ee memorandum. I have no doubt it is mine. I have no doubt it ; RS went forward.I remember the episode but I don't remember the r 3 a4 conversation with Mr. McCone at the time if there was-one. " 3 25 '  Q If Mr. Edwards or Mr. Harvey were to say they haa TOP SECRET HW 50955 DBocld: 322704970 Page 24
eet om ar) smd tt j Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 ‘10 11 le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 20 ee 20 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 20 discussions with you that I previously questioned you about, 19 21 FUP SECKREE ss, is it your testimony that you have no recollection that would enable you to confirm it or deny it? A Yes. I just don't remember it. I mean, if they were to sit here and go back through the conversation, and so forth maybe it would come to mind but I don't recall it now and I see no point in trying to testify to gomething that I don't remember. Q ‘Did you have any knowledge of any other plans involved in an attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro?. 9 FHL ROUT AdOOOLOHA A ~ As I’ was: saying a moment ago, there.were various: ideas. floated by various people in the Government that it woul be nice to get rid of him, and so forth; but 1 don't recall any viable plans that were ever brought to light to do this and most of the -- I say most -- almost the entire energies .of the DDP in thos days were attempting to get these operation in Miami organized to see if there was some way to undo the government of Fidel Castro and it was a major effort going. on and I am certain that there were discussions of the .. _ possibilities.of.killing various people in connection with, yo know, the eptions that one has to carry: through a certain injunction that you have been given, but I don't recall any plans that were approved or that were viable specifically . * directed at eliminating Castro, but that there were conver- gations about it, I haven't the slightest doubt. TOP SECRET HW 50955 DoclId:32204970 Page 25
oh 18 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25. ' all the time. Joe Califano.was involved from the Army -. TOP SECRET 2 Q° Do you: know who’ in the White House would have had those conversations wittr his people in the Agency? - A It seems to me. that back in those days there was. something called -- there was some committee that sat at the White House that had to do with counter-insurgency as I- recall it. Q- Would that be the Special Operations group? A I don't know what the name is any more,. different changes, but this group used to meet constantly on the problems of Cuba and Latin America, and so forth, and also problems all around the world ~~ how are we going to organize: ourselves to fight this problem,that problem and the other problem? I am sure there must be records of this thing. It used to meet all the time down at the Executive Office Od “ad GIWHASD FHL NOUd AdOD0.LOHd Building. It had met a lot on Asia, as I recall it,. and the problem in Vietnam, and so forth, and I have no doubt there was some organization that we. used to report to regularly abou our progress in the Cuban thing. I forget which committee it was but.certainly,. the.Attorney. General was. right there. Department in these matters. I don't know. There were other people. Ihave forgotten now all the -- that is a long time ago. | al Q Yes, sir. Does the name Mongoose ring any bell? : “| “A Sure. Mongoose was sort of a general cover rubric TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 26
bh 19 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 ql Le 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 4 Zo May well be. ' Califano was one of them. It seems to me Lansdale, who had = TOP SECRET = 200A ts for the whole effort to unseat the Castro government. — Q 7 Is this the group that you are referring to? A No. Mongoose would have been an internal agency thing, I think. Now, maybe it was known downtown as -- or some of these people who were privy to these things in other agencies that this was the rubric. I am not sure. It . Q When -they name a special group, Special Group Augmen or Special Operations Group -- | | A That sounds familiar, yes. That sounds familiar. I am ashamed that you know more about ‘these things these days than I do but honesly, I haven't even thought about them. in all these years. | Q _ Sir, do you have any recollection as to who might have been the driving forces from the White House in efforts to do something about Castro? A Well, the principal driving force was the Attorney General, Robert Kennedy. There isn't any question about this. Involved in this was a group of individuals who were sort of ‘hired and pulled together by Kennedy and Rusk and McNamara and McGeorge Bundy and all those people to get on with this job and as I sit here and start to think about this, been successful in this kind of operation out in the Far East was brought in for a while. There was a small office. TOP SECRET DoclTd: 32204970 Page 27 Hd avddrl dog “ua GIWYaS AHL WOWd AdDDOLO ~
bh 2 Phone (Area 202) $44-€000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17° 18 19 20 el Re 20 24 a9) that I think about it, that Mongoose thing, wasn't that a “the instructions and all this were pretty rough and. TOP SECRET ag Es HBA over in the Pentagon where people -- as a matter of fact, now - Lansdale invention that was produced in the Pentagon and that special operations, Gene:Erskine headed -- isn't that -- some of this is coming back to me now. x Q Well, as it comes back to you, do you remember any discussions involved connected or indirectly connected or any. way connected with that operation involving any attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro? | A I don't recall specifically. I would he surprised that it wasn't discussed at times but I don't recall any of these discussions particularly: Q _. Bo you remember any discussions with Mr.Harvey concerning the furnishing of either arms or poison pills to Cuban exiles to have them try and carry out any assassina- dail ddOd °Y GIWYID AHL NOYT AdODOLOHA tion plan?. A I don't have any question that we tried to land them in Cuba, to bring down this government or to kill ‘anybody that they. could lay their hands on. This was a -- pretty fulsome but when you come down to this question of a specific project was approved which was designed for a man to go to Point B and actually shoot or poison or do something’ to Castro, I don't recall anything of that kind and I to this very day would like to see some evidence that this ‘TOP SECRET Bocld: 322704970 Page 26
ah 21 HY 2 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 0955 10 Ll 12. 13 (14 15 16 Wy) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 29 TOP SECRET 876 actually was ever carried out. I think that there was a lot of lying on the part of those Cubans and a lot of backing and forthing with allegations of things that. happened that never did happen and as I. look back on the whole period, with - all the effort that was made in money and manpower, and so. forth, devoted to try and unseat the Castro government, when one looks back at it it was a pretty pitiful effort and I think a great deal of it was just, what shali I say, talking a good game. a Q Now, do you: have any recollection of any briefing of McCone about any Agency plans in which Harvey or Roselli or Sheffield Edwards may have been involved other than Exhibit 4? A I don't have any recollection of that, Mr. Belin. I want to tell you that all I recall was that McCone was constantly asking about how we were getting along with the Cuban operations and McCone was constantly being briefed about : . } what we were trying to do about these operations but. what was in all those briefings I. have. no recollection any more .at all and no matter how I would work on this I would never be able to sort it all out. It wase-- a lot of effort was being made, all kinds of things to get boats and to train. Cubans to man those boats and land on secret shores and’ all: kinds of things. Q- ‘If -- TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 29 AUVAEIT @uod “a GIWYIS FHL NOUT AdODOLOHA
oh 22 { 1 Phone (Area 202) 544-6600 10 il 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 ‘15 16 1? 18 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 from whether or not assassination should play any part in TOP SECRET A May I ask a question at this juncture? Since Castro is alive and well in Cuba, what is the problem about these | ~~ trying to verify all this business about whether these attempts were made or not made? I mean, does it make any difference any more? Q Well, there are two major areas of concern apart American policy. One area concerns how the plans were authorized, whether they were directed externally or whether they grewup internally. The second area concerns what I would call internal moni- toring and control. If Mr .McCone. didn't know about it, other than that briefing, that. poses a. problem so far as an Agency operating under control. If you did not know about it..until the spring of 1962, and the information that I have..gathered indicates that you were. not: privy to any. information about avddIT qyod “yw qIwadaS aHL WOdd AdOO0.LOHG this until the spring of 1962, you. were ina fairly important; position in the Agency and yet were notraware of what could ‘have been a potentially disastrous_operation, certainly. an operation that had all kinds of ramifications. for this. country when one considers the trigger of World War I involved an assassination attempt. | And SO, therefore, the’ scope of. my inquiry is. not oot necessarily to say it is this'.person's responsibility but in large part it is to determine how these plans got organized TOP SECRET HW 50955° Docld:39904970 Page 30
oh 23 { Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E£., Washington, D.C. 20003 BW 50955 CH 10 il. 12 18 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ai Re 20 24 20 TOP SECRET aT and how they were kept under control, and I should tell you that it is my information that, although you did not have any information about this prior to the spring of 1962, that in:.the spring of 1962 you were made privy to what I am going to call Phase I which was the Giancana phase and also what I am ‘going to call Phase II when William Harvey took over the operation, and that Mr.McCone, according to. the records that I have seen; was not briefed until the August 16, 1963 memorandum, in part because of the fact Mr McCone had not been DCI: at the time the plans were undertaken, so the documents say that I have seen, and that at the time of his briefing in August of 1963, it was not an oral briefing but . vather limited to a discussion of the Giancana matter:in “the memorandum for the record addressed to Senator Kennedy, Exhibit 4. Now, is there anything that.I have said which disagrees with anything that is to the best of your recollection? A I have no reason to cavil with what you say. I don't have any contrary recollections but I don't remember a lot of this either. So -- Q-  -Now, do you remember Senator Kennedy coming over to the Agency on or about March 8, 1967, to review this memorandum for the records that was Helms' Exhibit 4 that c pertained to his 1962 briefing? A Senator Kennedy visited the Agency to do that? TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 31 all duod °y GIWuaS FHL HOW AdOOOLOHd
Phone (Area 202) 544-€0be - wo 10 ll 12 WARD & PAUL = eo) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 26 HW 50955 Docld:32204970 Page 32 detivered a copy of that. Does that ring a bell with you Houston about ~~ 20. TOP SECRET Q - Yes. He either visited the Agency or was hand-_ at all? AD No, it doesn't, but I don't say it didn't happen. I don't -- Q You don't remember any conversations with Senator Kennedy. about this? A No, I don't. -Q. Do you remember any conversations with Lawrence A Oh, yes, it was Houston who told me about the briefing in the first place. Q That is right, and when Houston told you about the briefing and Houston was present at the briefing, do you — I daod °u a1waa5 4qHL WOUd AdODOLOHA remember what he said and what you said at all or don't you? A No. Q Do you ‘remember having ‘any ‘conversations with either Houston about Robert Kennedy wanting to see the memorandum again on -- sometime in 1967? | | A I don't remember the thing at all but, you know, if it -- if the record says that this happened I have no reason to argue with it. It would not have loomed. large in my life at that late date and if he wanted to look at it of I wouldn't have the slightest doubt I authorized somebody : “| to show it to him. I don't recall his coming out here to TOP SECRET
bh 25 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000. LO “lil Le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 el Re 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 ' with him? (Wr SEGA look at it. In other words, I don't recall him ever being in my office here. Q Do you have any recollection of a project known 'as Project Amlash? A Amlash? By that name, not any more. Q Did you ever? A - Don't forget, Mr. Belin, that there were hundreds of these things. Q. Do you have any recollection of any man by the name of Rolando Cubela who was a Cuban who at one time had been associated with Castro and then became disaffected A ‘Let's see, Was he the fellow who eventually ended up in Paris or Madrid or something of this kind? Q Yes. At one time he did and then eventually he ended up in Cuba but he was met by Agency people in Paris. A. What was his particular ‘cryptonym? | Q Well, among other things. some Black Leaf 40 had jen been developed to be delivered to him in a pen which had been “constructed to have a hypodermic needle with. the.object. to ‘inject the Black Leaf 40 into. Castro. And that was. delivered. to him.in Paris on November 22, 1963. Do you remember? “A. I certainly remember Cubela.. I certainly remember " the fact that he was, I think ~-- was he a defector from the Us . Cuban regime. TOP SECRET HWY 350955 DBocld: 32204970 Page 33 qdll @a0d “ad aTwaaS FHL NONI AdOOOLOHd: vée ff
Dn 26 / Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ll 12. 13 14 15 16 iv 18 19 20 21 Re RO 24 aS) ‘The Black Leaf 40 and the hypodermic pen, and so forth, I '-to put a spectacular seashell in an area -- TOP SECRET Q “Yes. A or was he an agent whom we recruited who had not yet defected or what? I certainly remember his name and I certainly remember the..yse that was made of a fellow named Cubela but I don't recall exactly for what. Q There was an effort to recruit him in place. There were eventually some weapons delivered to him. A Were there? I don't have any reason to doubt it. don't recall. Q Do. you recall any Agency scheme which involved tryin A. That is what I was talking about earlier. womebody “ad GTWHAS GHL WOWA AdODOLOHG: was talking once about trying to put a bomb on his beach avadrt aiod where he walked, or something. Q Or where he skin-dived. | A Yes, that is the idea. I do remember somebody discussing whether that would be aviable operation or not. Q Do you ever remember anyone discussing giving .Castro a skin-diving suit which would include some tuberculosik ‘bacteria in the breathing apparatus and also possibly some fungus which would produce madura foot? A Madura foot? I remémber,it seems to me, Fitzgerald ‘ * had a bright idea about the skin-diving suit. I don't -remember his -- I don't think I recall at all that there was. TOP SECRET DoclTd: 32204970 Page 34
o a - a Phone (Area 202) 544-600 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18: ‘19 20 21 22 235 24 29 any plan to put. anything in it. I have even forgotten: what .got down on paper since’ you have them but I.don't recall they’ ' carry them.out. ' Bundy or-anybody. else is sitting around, no, no, no, we TOP SECRET the skin-diving suit was but I want to tell you these came up every day, some hairbrained.idea like this to do some- thing about Cuba, but that these “actually were carried out, I don't recall any’ instances of it. I don't recall any approva 8 given to actually set the seashell down or to send the thing or that any assets were developed to do these things. These ‘were a lot of things: that were discussed and I am sure they were ever approved or ever carried out or any attempt to Q ‘Do you remember that eventually arms were delivered: to Mr.Cubela in Cuba? A I don't have any doubt about it. I think we ( delivered arms all over the place in-connection with: Cuba. ‘I-mean, let us not for a moment think that the. Kennedy > avddiT daod “ad GTWuaS FHL NOUd xdODOLOHa Administration wasn't dead serious about getting rid of the Castro government... I mean,. let's not -- this was a Government operation and if Dean Rusk or anybody,. McGeorge - didn't have this in mind at all;. let's get that all straighter out. They wanted to get rid of Castro. Well, let me say that I don't know that Dean Rusk wanted to get rid of him — ‘but certainly President Kennedy wanted to get rid of him. Q What do you mean by getting rid of him? | TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 35
oh 28 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 1? is 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 bring his government down by whatever device could be found. A. . They wanted to unBeat his government. They wanted to Q .:Which could include assassination? A -I'don't know that the word assassination was ever f f used but certainly if you land armed men-on a beach and the effort is to recruit other armed men and to try to start a whole arfangement whereby you, you: know, you bring down a government, sombeody is bound to get shot. But the thing that I am doing my level best with you about and which even as I sit here thinking about it, is the focus on this assassination business as though this was a, you know, some- thing that was totally part and parcel of killing or invasions or anything of that kind. Put in that context, I just don't remember that any of these’ operations were ever mounted let alone had any prospects. of success: That a lot of them we discussed, I haven't the slightest doubt and I don't know AUWAGIT God °y aiIwagaS aHL woud AdODOLOHd what other people in the Government have testified to but even that must have come up at various meetings as to whether this was a viable way to get rid of. the man. There is a very great difference, it seems to me, when you actually approved it, were prepared to take the responsibility. QO: For the record,. there appear to have been no plang: ' undertaken to carry out either the seashell or the skin-diving) - suit but there do appear to be plans to deliver the poison TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 36
ie] oe N ( Phone (Area 202} 544-6600 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 a. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2°) track. Before the election the Agency spent a substantial sum. Of money in coordination with the Secretary of State as a IUP SECKEI! pills and plans to deliver weapons. A’ All right. Q You don't have any recollection to the contrary; A No, I don't. Q I want to get back to Chile, if I can. After the pluralty victory of Aliende ~=- I will back- part of a propaganda effort showing the dangers of the Marxis regime. A Now, what years are we in now? Q We are now. in 1970. A Because one of the problems about Cuba and testimony I have made in Congress is that there were two operations in Cuba, one in ~- I mean in Chile. Excuse me. Chile. Not Cuba. Chile. One in 1964 and then a different kind ofsa.thing in 1970, and one of the reasons that my ddiT quod °d aiIwaa. gH. Woua AdODOLOHA credibility was questioned was that I answered rather narrowly a coupze of questions that Senator Symington asked me because. I assumed and I had reason to believe that he knew that in 1964. we had..funded..actual candidates in the Chilean @lection. -In other words, we had given money. to..the candidate this kind. — a co a TOP SECRET. DoclTd: 32204970 Page a7
bh 30 ‘TOP SECRET ebukih 2 ‘ 1 Q ‘Well, my particular questions now pertain to the ~ an election of 1970. 5 5 AD May I say that I have absolutely no objection to E 4 |. your going into the Agency records. There are a lot of ‘peopl 5 around here who remember what was done in 1970. 1962 and | 6 | 196 hy et cetera, people have died, but: whatever those fellows . 0 7 _ that ran the W.H. Division and were Chief of Station in | | : 8 . Chile and all ‘the rest, I have got no reason to eavil with {8 9 them. They are honest men and will tell the truth about it. | "3 10 I encouraged Senator Church to do it. They have gone over , --LL |. this. with me over and over and over again and I remember only a 2 ‘Le - go much about it. But the facts are ascertainable. 13 . Q Let. me try to establish this, if you pave any 0 < 14 recollection on it, that prior to the election on or about . 7 15 17 "September 4, 1970, the Agency ‘did spend a considerable amount i 16 | of funds. in coordination with the. State. Department. for. | 17 | propaganda efforts to convince or to show the people .of Chile ~.18 IP the dangers of a Marxist regime. Do you remember that? 2 19 A Yes. I have no doubt that money. was. spent. I ; 20 think it was just for those purposes, as I recall it.. ra) . ; oo, 8 21 Q.. And after the election, but before the .investiture E 22 by the legislature, there were the authorization of additional 23 funds to be spent to prevent the accession of Allende to the." ‘ 24° presidency by seeking to induce various Chilean groups and al 2 a . : 3 ‘95 possibly the military to thwart the investiture. Do: you TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32204970 Page 36
oh 3 Phone (Area 202) 544-60007 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 “1 18 19 20 el 22 25 24 25 plan to stop the investiture. — TOP SECRET remember that? AL “I don't remember that in that form. My recollection was that efforts were made to find out if there was .any way to do it but I don't recall that anybody’ found any way to do » it and that, therefore, the whole thing was dropped. There may have been some, you know, minor additional expenditures made but I don't recall anybody approving of a specific Q- and you. don't have any recollection of the providing of any. submachineguns to any military officers? | A’ No, I don't, but if Tom Karamessines or one of those fellows testifies to the fact that they did send machine guns down there and they delivered to Mr. X or Mr. Y or Mr.Z, I have no reason to question it. Q. -. And do you have any recollection of any conversation with President Nixon.after the Chilean election in this. connection to see what could be done. to thwart investiture. of Allende. and: to not tell either the Secretary of State - or other members of the Forty Committee about it? A _ This was.aprivate conversation between me and President Nixon? Q Yes, sir. A I don't recall it. Where did it take place? wt Q Well, let me show you from your files a memorandum . of a meeting on September 15, 1970. TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 39 45 AHL WOdd AdOOOLOHa
nbh 32 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 f ne GI 10 1l- -12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 RS 24 25 TOP SECRET ‘Who were present at that meeting besides you and the President, according to your memo? © | A | According to the. memo it says present were John Mitchell and Henry Kissinger. . Let's see what these notes say. As I interpret these notes, this was an injunction to me to do everything possible to stop it. But I don't recall ‘that we were able to find any way to do it. Q And how much funds were authorized to be spent?- A Well, it says here "$L0°million is available, more ‘if neeessary." Qo Then, what does it say? A "Full-time job. Best men we have." m other words, this was.a Nixon injunction to pull out all the stops to do this. | | | Q But you don't have any. specific recollection. of his direction to you not to tell the Forty Committee or the Secretary of State? | A No, I don't. a MR. BELIN: Mark.No. 5. \ (The document referred to was marked © -£Lor identification, Helms' Exhibit ‘No. 5.) BY MR. BELIN: Po Q The last item I want to talk to you about at this . time goes back to 1962. I am sorry to skip back and forth,” TOP SECRET Bocld: 322704970 Page 40
oh 3 Phone (Area 202) 544-6800 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 ol p 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 4 £0 of 1962. - TOP SECRET A All right. Q You mentioned that the Attorney General, Robert Kennedy, was intimately involved with Operation Mongoose. And there appears to be a corroborating menorandum prepared by you dated October 16, 1962, pertaining to this, and I wonder if you would read this memorandum and see if it refreshes your recollection. A 6 October 1962. When was the Cuban missile crisis? Q. ‘fhe’ Cuban missile crisis, I believe, was in October A Colonel Patchell.. I had forgotten: all about him. Q This letterhas been marked Helms' Exhibit 5. A That sort of lays it out, doesn't it? Q Ambassador Helms, having read the Helms' Exhibit No. 5, this is a memorandum which you prepared which appears — to have been prepared on October 16, 1962, the date that you avddiIT quod “a GQTwuqo aL HOYT AdODOLOHA met with the Attorney General, is that correct? A Yes. Q - And to the best of your recollection, did the Attorney General express the general: dissatisfaction of the President with the Operation Mongoose? A I have every reason .to believe that what I wrote -in that memorandum was the best of my recollection of what * was said and what went on in the meeting described. Q Would it be fair to say that the Attorney General”. TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 41
bh 3 - Phone (Area 202) 544-6800 fay) 10 11 12 13 14 WARD & PAUL 15° 16 17 18 19 20 el ‘22 20 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 had overtaken or had taken over a certain portion of the but Mr.Harvey did say that he --. _ said that you and he determined not to brief the DCI on it TOP SECRET was personally involved and, continued to become more. personal involved with the: overall Mongoose Operation? A. Yes. Qo Do you know whether or not at any time the Attorney > General was ever advised of the fact. that William Harvey | Roselli operation? | A I don't have any recolleétion of that. Have you ever talked to Harvey, incidentally? Q Yes, sir. A What did he have to. say on the subject? ‘Q Well, Mr. Harvey never met with the Attorney General A He never : saw the Attorney General? Q He never discussed “~ no, he didn't say that. A.. Oh. Q He never discussed the particular plans in which he ‘was personally involved with the Attorney General. A I see. I see. Q He did say that sometime in the spring of 1962 “you became aware of those plans and that would be corroborated by other documentation that I have seen, and that he also _¥ ‘at the.time and that is also corroborated by other documenta- tion that I have seen, TOP SECRET HW 50955 DocId: 32204970 Page 42 ddrT quod °-y aTwago FHL WOWd AdODOLORA
Dh 35 / TOP SECRET sl \ vs { So oe g A What sort of documentation? y 2 ; i —_ s Q Memorandum. @ A Memorandum for the record? , fe] . & 4 Q Well, memorandum involving among other things, 5 a , review of the entire area of this. I have notes on it. I 6 a . don't have the memorandum here. at. this time. ry 7 ; ea I don't know if I would call it a memorandum for : i} - 19 8 . the record but at least there is some written documentation, . S 9 : : _ js but I don't know whether made contemporaneously, that there oa oO J ; omn 10 was a decision not to brief DCI, McCone, the memorandum = : +3 ll . ae a having been talked about earlier. ss | 12 a 5 A Let me ask a very important question here at this : ¢ . . a : a 13 . 5 14 Q Surely. ra 15 A This plan that Harvey was alleged to have, how & boo g a . 16 far did it. ever get? I mean, what I am trying to get at: a3 17 | here is that we are dealing with a lot of conjecture, a lot Z 18]. of thoughts, a lot of ideas. Now, did any plan get. down to the 8 19 point where somebody was about -to get in a boat or airplane 8 20 -and go to Cuba and do X or Y and it shows I approved this 3 el happening or was this something he was going to try to develop)’. 26 and see if it could fly and if there was any possibility : 3 that it might work, and so forth? i é . . Oo as a & 24 Q There are reports that the people with whom there i _ 2 a, | * a5 “was contact did get to Cuba with pills and with -- Be | TOP SECRET 3 HW 50955 Docld: 32204970 Page 43
oh 36— Phone (Area 202) 544-6600 10 1 12 “13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1” 18 19 20 21 20 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 overview,as.I understand your testimony, is that correct? A This was the first -- Q ~~ other occasions. A First phase? : a Q: And also the second phase and in addition, there were subsequent reports that there were arms provided also and what you are saying is if this plan continued over ‘a period of several years it continued without your express A Yes. My recollection of Harvey's dealings with Roselli or during most of the period that was that nothing ‘ever happened about anything. Q Well, certainly Mr. Castro is still living. “ad GIWYAS AHL WOUd AdODOLOHA A Yes, but I mean, I think this --'I don't know whose word to trust in this but I think that, you know, this is a pretty thin reed, this Roselli business. He was a pain in the neck .and an awful albatross but I think we got zero. RUVadIT auoa use out of him. MR: .MANFREDI: Mr.Helms, this is Harold Baker, another member of the staff. - THE WITNESS: How do you do? ‘MR. BELIN: Mr. Baker is going to be here tomorrow. I think at this time we will let you take a breather and at least adjourn the deposition to resume tomorrow morning.. we {THE WITNESS: What time would you like me here, ‘Mr Baker? TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32204970 Page 44
ba 37, 0, { Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 . WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 TOP SECRET MR. BAKER: “Mr. Gray was going to start first. MR. BELIN:° Mr. Gray is not -- well, 1 have asked the questions that Mr.Gray wanted to ask. | | | MR. BAKER: I see. What would be convenient for you? THE WITNESS: I want to meet your convenience. I mean my desire is to be as available and get everything done that we can so I can get back to my job. MR. BAKER: Half past nine? THE WITNESS: Fine. ; | MR. BELIN: All right. Well, thank you, sir, for your cooperation. | | THE WITNESS: Thank you. Iwant to cooperate. I want to help. r will try and be a little bit, lot more alert tomorrow. - (Whereupon, at 4:30 p.em., the taking of the AUVdaIT Taod °U GIVYAO AHL NOU XdOOOLOHA deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Thursday, \ April 24, 1975.) TOP SECRET Docld: 32204970 Page 45