cand Report of Proceedings on sy : Hearing held before Benate Select Committee to Btudy Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities ee pone eee cere ert te Washington, D.C (Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over to the Committee for destruction) WARD & PAUL 410 FIRST STREET, S. E. WASHINGTON, D. C. 20003 (202) 644-6000 TAP SECRET _ ®
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Satna a eas mt 4 q a d i ad | 10 11 12 135 WARD & PAUL 14 15 7600 o@ 1149 6 410 Fiest Steet, S-E.. wasnnaton, 0.0. 20003 EXECUTIVE SESSION Thursday, June 19, 1975 United States Senate, Select Committee to Study Government. Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities, Washington, D- Cc. The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.Me,e in Room §.123, The Capitol, Senator John G. tower presiding: present: Senators Tower (presiding), Baker and Mathias. Also present: william Miller, Staff Director: Frederick A. O. Schwarz, gr., chief Counsel; Charles Kirbow and David Aaron, professional Staff Members.
P] > < a « [oJ « < g 410 Feest Street, SE. Wasneneton, D.C. 20003 Senator Tower. Mr. Angleton, I understand that you came on very short notice. And I appreciate your accommodating the Committee. you will have to be sworn. Would you rise, please, and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this committee is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but. the truth, so help you God? Mr. Angleton, 1! do. Senator Tower. Counsel, you may proceed. TESTIMONY OF JAMES ANGLETON Mr. Schwarz. I would like to first get your name and address on the record. Mr. Angleton. James Angleton, Arlington, virginia. Mr. Schwarz. Just gome procedural matters. You have a right to counsel, you understand that? Mr. Angleton. Yes, I understand it. Mr. Schwarz. And: if at any time you want to stop to ob- tain counsel you have a right to do that. And if you wish to claim any of your Constitutional rights you have a right to do that, you understand those things also, do you? Mr. Angleton. YeS, I understand them. Mr. Schwarz. You were employed at the CIA for what period of time? Mr. Angleton. From the beginning until December, the TOP SECRET
oer end of December. Mr. Schwarz. 1974? Mr. Angleton. 1974. Mr. Schwarz. And were you the chief of counter intel Ligencq at the CIA for that period? | | Mr. Angleton. I was. Mr. Schwarz. ‘For that entire period of time? Mr. Angleton. No, from 1954. Mr. Angleton. That ig correct. Can you briefly state th CQ gence vork and 2 3 < a q ° t < 8 wid ask you some clarifica- ess, or are we trying to take poe I can direct my an more where we are going. 410 Freat Steet, $.E., Wawiagion. 0.c. 20003 Schwarz. We are going to the Szulc busines ! | yy TOP SECRET
2 > Pao s « a « < 8 410 Feest Street, $.E., Warmington, 0.C. 20003 1943, in aS Senator Baker. If I may say 80, not.be taken by surprise, there are one Feto what you have already discussed with RNockefeller, Mr. on, Well, to b ‘om the infantry EN : % embryonic counter nee Donovan. My immediate was James R. Murphy, who had been a protegee and optein degree in General Donovan's office. And he is a Moss 4 attorney here in Washington. And he was Chief of%X-2, s the counter intelligence. And during that t 12 a number of were put together who country, and to London. And the purpose of thatswas to ab- Rritish experience, and more important), The breaking of the German codes, which is re} activity, was really done in England. And hy way Aigression, the Germans were using a receiver machine cal TOP SECRET
i \ i 4 HW 54971 WARO & PAUL 410 Fest Street, S.E.. Wasningion. O.C. 20003 Docld: 32423393 fruits of that breakthrough woullfag first go to the military and the military spevations,/ Ye counter intelligence use of it would be the botsto List of priorities, in one sense. But it would mean/that a compromise of the material in any fashion to the’Germans would destroy thedmilitary e uses. And durings th war or when the Germans went vinto the war, they brought it up from 10 percent recovery to\akout ak 100 percents. anale/verieve it was in the neighborhood of some 2zA00N E> “Ls messages from the German high command. I know operat if the & le of Tobruk was fought on six intercepts. So our job was to make use of the counter intelligence ft the purpose of playing back German agents to their high yon war ended I would say that 99 percent of all reporting agents TOP SECRET mand. And this was an elaborate deception. And when the Page &
WARD & PAUL _ 410 Forst Street, S.E.. Wasnington, p.c. 20003 that the Germans had were under our control. And in fact/ west ae document don and money was to our agent under ¢ s And it: was @alled the Safe Haven program. es with full access to british, ‘or th Mfruits of British activity, going back through their an one And ue the advance head- quarters for General pokbvan, and Mr. Murphy. I was then sent. to Yealy in/943. And I took over the counter intelligence for rtdyf/ the OSS, AFHQ, Allied Forces Neadquarters. Subsequently I pecad the Ne of OSS Italy. And I want to say that my wrk then becal @ more broad in terms of espionage and all the/fother veanchos Sess. And I re-estab- lished the countegpinceniigence services’ And I brought the pexistence, particularly eh originally scapes the code, and who worked | . t for many years. And Y this time it was shifted to the T ved’ Italy in 1947 or 1948 and came hack, and was discharged and went into the Agency immediately. \ \during the pegiod I was in the Agency, of course, I had both yent op Bens, long distance operations, and counter intel gence, e Mf cone sabotage, black propaganda, infiltration. : t G And probably the first overnight operation that there Was TOP SECRET
F] 2 < a a [J « < z 410 Forst Street, $.€., Wasnenaton, O.C. 20003 Italians in an airplane and having them fly over to & MRoumanian border and make very primitive snotograor(f ot the , then I had a ions, embassy penetrations, and?8o on. Bosense the vesuacitation f the Italian service, ALreporce, and the ark wx of the Interior, was American rena gin Ana/? am not going to go into the details of the politieal situation. There was the Brigade and in fact the S lf not fighting the war, ing and instability. And throughout’ this we had very clot \guperviaton from Mr. Murphy, and General Donovan. And weshad we interest in| sind what was happening inBerline ybehind the Andgthe then acting Secretary of State fo to dofthrough our channels, and General Donovan, with théf cold war. We did not buy the cold war, it came to us ‘ad we worked with the Germans, and as we broke down the Py wossvion we began to find that we were not getting the TOP SECRET
Ke against the U. Ss. “in particular, an allie 1s. NL 2 3 < s a a « < 3 HHS , of course, was the Israeli immigration. techn{c&1ly we . ré still a part of AFHQ, which was a combined ahd naried Headq ; ee factivities be directed in supporting their eeponaivir{pdes in the Middle rast \and, therefore, to pre- vent the Ld sqration. . Nnd I think the only policy cable Skat was ever re- ceived during that period was one we sent \ ff. Murphy, and through General Donovan to the President. Thad suas where w in ~N. prevent immigration. And they addressed themselves 5 ane oneal 410 Ferst Street, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 issue, and they came back with an ambiguity, but it le TOP SECRET
i 4 4 ! : “to. this activity, that we wotild go ahead and re-establ is relationship. And afte éagreed upon between the re a, Angleton. In most simplistic ferns, they were in- fet intelligence and ‘Kh them onfyov gfsommunism, where it existed’ ’ agreement ~~ which I take it was aN a: did it remain in effect throughout no o@ ita: Miller. And under whose athority was the agree- r the_authority Se the Director of Mr. Angleton. Unde central Intelligence, and the the other side. Mr. Miller. And this involved the exchange of resources of both countries? Mr. Angleton. The term “resources” is not quite 10 Frest Street, S.E., Wasnimaton. o.c. 20003 Everything except their own people. It was giving\ TOP SECRET correct.
as an instrument of Mr. Angleton. e internat papers would be in the Agency. The letters, copies president or to the the Agency.» 2 > « ry ry fo) 3 < x with Africa, If you are * va as to wW tive treaty which was cleared -- and people wanted these things wae don't think there vere y. clearances OY ————$—$$ an ER obtained from /ehe Hille, Mr. uiher. Was it ‘regarded as an obligation conmieneeype the U.S. tq fon certain maven Angleton. When you use the word U.S. while y mayfuse it as contracting officers and all that, there wa Me yery little reduced to writing. And it is a custom of Lf, svAtelligence that intelligence supersedes writing. And 410 Ferst Steet, $.E.. Wasnenaton, 0.c. 20003 there have been very few directors to my knowledge that would TOP SECRET
vuenertiene aie ote oe a opera = 2 P] < ry a Q 4 < z 410 Feest Street, S.E., Wasningion. 0.¢c. 20003 rr these were all understandings that were | genemisea by events. WE had the arrest of thie/nine doctors, | arom in Russia. And obviously fst didn't go through a lot. of bu ycracy, it was there. for, Lyne to see. | And it had a ai “impact on the gygdtson of immigration of “agents, and ceveryh g else’ that / Via along with it. And t think that” charact ny (dod operation. cet \ Mr. Miller. How was C possible for succeeding directors “4p of the intelligence agency” : nderstand what the 13) agreements were A t 14 | and the U “4 telligence 15 Mr _ pasresony ery simple. phey saw the production to 16 | begin with. ‘And fhey met with directo 3 OK the head of 17 TOCSY And they’ met with Lennon and prime 18 ministers. And they were very much involved Mr (stnware.. Just one more background question and ee turn ‘to the principle subject. TN 4 the connection? Mr. Angleton. Well, I think I have said it all to TOP SECRET
) > < « 0: «: rat zB 410 First Steeet, S-E., Wasmengton, D.c. 20003 commission -- I don't mow how wisely. You can always different information from different people. told them, so I would like to give him the bene doubs on it. But over a period of time Colb before he wen person.on Water he began to regard’ e thing where we ed to open the windows And he used phrases such as, we must help other thin <I. position was that it was a political we were not bound, or should Act be bound ency on tactical ventures when we had relation@hips ; ich had strategic implications. But one must rembmer that there are still in the Soviet Union. And the relationship is only place where you do it with high level agencies who for ideology and do not work for money. So it is unique. TOP SECRET $
a i | } | 2 > < e « [e) € < 8 410 Forst Stewet, $.£.. Wasnengion, O.C. 20003 the Poles in bie m’in Moscow, where you had the cohesion SE27 bloc servic their own congress party appargcug into a collective with Moscow. And most important, four job was to preserve the inte- grity of the immigrati the, bloc, because the problem of escape to Israel $f : it is not a the return. And, thetetore, there is a certain Nin’ of parallelism, you stom /adh, between handling the communicat) ns intelligence auring/ehé war and where a low priority makes YgeNoe it and (Gets the whole with the question of immigratioy re/the fruits of that immigration come to this gove: (Recess.) Senator Tower. Will you go ahead and resume the que tign TOP SECRET
movements. And, therefor things, and so on, t ‘ é contrary to the spirit, and what had be ad obtained, for example, by ecret speech which prac~ tically created revolutdsns in Hu LY and Poland. 2 3 < ry a Q € < z a I was just simpiy reiterating the Sproblem of the immi- él gration. This wi f opening the doors SR sereing the light [Sere the production ran from everything, “ff speech of Khrushchev's against Stalin, it ran int 7 Azan tain period of time it resulted in over 22,000 reports deal- first hard information on nuclear explosives, and it into practically the whole gamut. And I think in a cere 410 Forst Street, S.E., Wasnengton, 0.C. 20003 ing with the Soviet bloc which were unique. And much of this TOP SECRET
2 3 < ry a o £ < z 410 Fist Steeet, S.E., Wasringtan, O.C. 20003 came from, say, an engineer that had a factory, or what ne in other words, it had a very direct bearing on our and our own defense budget. Now, our own way of handling it was to give Big ion, reports, so that if the report was%eVver compro- mised, StAwould not compromise the operations;yor the immi~- “jh qrations, and therefore, that was one wy, r issue was that to p Kicize the Agency, ack to headquarters and went bac ‘ Ktonal Security Council, and et cetera, Wena group of men. It was probably the most economical “NX on that has ever been devised in the S. Government. I aon’ think there was more than 10 people Mera wore hired in the same¥process. . I sph from the south side with tw men who worked cp me during the war. He sent them over as ordinary peop press cover to establish the working hour sNOf things, b rought over six others and put them through Sthe months eee $
i > < s « o « < 8 410 Forst Steeet, S.£., Wasmengton, 0.C. 20003 we were used in an affirmative way under President Eisenhower. | “F | Hedwanted to make a real attempt to see if there hh ever ace in the Middle East. And with Alan pivies, his and myself, and Kermit Roosevelt, Ayé put up a plan to bringin ww Robert B. Anderson, who had/been Assistant Secretary of e Defense. And he wasNaccredited as speci di emissary from the President. And I haridled his base 46 which was secret, black, as we call ther And Kermit Roosevelt ee this went on back that ‘there ov og be any peace. put + sho tyes of initiatives could, be done without. Angleton. Yes. He offered me jobs or what, not. Bie these are matters of principle, as far as I am a la VA Mr. Miller. Mr. Angleton, you described the fiduc relationship. Were there points along the way where the aN TOP SECRET
4 > < a ‘ Q « < z .£.. Watnengton, O.C. 20003 Mr. Angleton. We never got into that. Of cour \"Mr s Angleton. Of course, they came.up. There ie any thing , case. Times has Mr. question. Mr. Mri with many it is secret about it. But what exampleg”.éan you give? The cecens Like of Rabun is a classic Cay sled reassossmeft/ot the Middle East. The a ray sof. it than the Agency has. es TOP SECRET t
na a lot ‘ojmthese things are illusions. But what would you regard I don't think there t8 Ajrontics regarding re ay’ i or the balance of power. I don't think there Senator Mat might have posed -- ©& Mr. Angleton. Whi sraeli-British-French attack on Sue@. Senator Mathias. Eee $8 WARD & PAUL i We had two snes gst had just fought a war with us, and both of whom wo us. And Eden's Heat is very a well documented. ie we we didn't have any agreementswwith them, they Pepe OST OT ae r a different purpose. Mr. Kirbow. Let me see if I can make a point on j USE: 410 Forat Sieeet, S.E.. Watnengton.O.C. 20003 common sense level. TOP SECRET HW 54991) Docld: 32423393 Page 24
whee Lladelee De Vola abel ie baci HW 54921 WARD & PAUL O.c. 20003 410 Foust Street, $.£.. Wasnington, DoclId: 32423393 3 RAY, 4th difficulties in your dperations because -~- Senator that kind? Mr. Angleton\ days. Mr. Miller. I was to®deal with them on those matters -- So your method; ; a: Mr. Angleton% A total heb¢rality of interest. N o the subject of atomic ‘ or the record we should make idlear, I think Mr. Angleton has an interview witn/ghe staff, and he has been made aware that a witness tdeified here under oath as to certain matters¥.vand that that 22 48 the approach that we are going to take now. Ay Is that clear? Mr. Schwarz. I want to ask the question general first and then come to the other testimony. TOP SECRET Page 25
was rek Mr. John Meconer had some of the sharpest j veo - ‘ history of the, relationship. Mr. Schwaléz. You mentioned thosé , just put that. ony WARD & PAUL ee deeier 3 ° 7 9g G ¢ 8 ¢ g r 2 a 3 w a4 “ . rd > re ° « TOP SECRET
Ral id JFK Act QS0OFK Act * JFK Act (Off the record.) Mr. Schwarz. Back on the record. a, ; i Schwarz. Does he have any knowledgefot atomic matters4 _Angleton. Yes. He was one of thayoriginators. Schwarz. J 3 < ry e ) £ < x Angleton. In Mr. Mr. Mr. Nrgleton. That is correct. 7 At that meeting did y, discuss -- ‘5, somewhere to 410 Forest Street, $.£., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003 TOP SECRET
Se te eek a a SPREE ROL nT oe oe “410 First Street, S.E£,, Wainsngton, D.C. 20003 Mr. Schwarz. What did he say to you? Mr. Angleton. They prefaced his remarks by ard. And then this thing:: and then it final Wa 3 published without notifying the But 26 MrfgScharz. When you say it was wrong, -~ if. Angleton. His statement was wrong. Mr. Schwarz. So you denied the story that Mr. Angleton. I said, it is wrong. Mr. Schwarz. I just want to make sure what it is. It TOP SECRET
WARD &@ PAUL 410 Forest Street, $.£., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 does constitute a denial. Mr. Angleton. His story was wrong. Senator Baker. Let me ask you, Mr. Angleton, doy j 2 ¥ tand by that that you mean every material hile of and that Hersh Lb vin that his source he “had heen set up” Senator Baker. Wh Mr. Angleton. That entire furor on the paé Yes. £ Senator sarerdAfratnst Ame¥ican citizens? AG “ Mr. angievoh te Senator Baker. Did they do tha nce? Bg NA Mr. Angleton. No, because neither Wiciosed their inde-~ pendent sources to the other. was: fy Do I understand you to mean that every materialX f that statement was wrong? Mr. Angleton. Yes. But I didn't know my motives on lot of questions that I had with him. Because this was the TOP SECRET
Lean neater ee ene BOFK A JFK A ct 6 ct 6 Prone (Area 202) Py 2 < ‘ 4 fe] € < g 410 Forest Street, SE . Wasnington, O.C. 20003 first live human being I saw that had actually allegedly 4 Angleton. Hersh told him, according” té Szule, that d of the story, because this wasyhis source on the Boe OF . And therefore he wondered aloud whether December 22 informati Mr. Angleton. Mr. Kirbow. Off thé record, (Off the record.) Mr. Schwarz. I just want t ke sure, in your conversa- fs 9 tion with Mr. Szulc fais opposed to ye@ur testimony here today Mr. Angleton. I denied it. But the conversation drifted fe Sy . rapidly, /bécause Szulc was . talking about a very great agent yousknow Australia? And I said, yes, I know Australia. Does the word Sydney mean anything to me? TOP SECRET
a 2 «< s a re] € < 5 410 Forest Street, $.£., Wasinington, O.C. 20003 Yes, he word Sydney does mean something to me. Do you know sho is bicycling in India? And Isaid, I am afraid I am not with you. And he said, Sidney X. And Sidney X is one offour most ve employees who retired, and is pteyersh”in India. ff I give this as an illustration of the cat and mouse ~ en head of our technitah, services aepdfement, which means that there is a cross pisghin our bysiness. And the man who is 2 7 ‘was bugging and perfornligauy//the hundreds of technical services, has access; anton nately, to many of our operations. va There is one rnagfle pote, in the business where there is a breakdown of iy — for him to indicate that he knew cote and ‘the sours \ehat had been raised in be in our teGKnical Services Division, which, XY was, he would y or could get into every thingy at didn't tell him that. othe Aor that and so on. Senator Baker. Could I ask you a question at this po TOP SECRET —
sates Prone (Ares 202} 544-6000 P 2 < a a Q © < z 410 Forest Street. $.£., Wasnengton, O.C. 20003 > a) tat Szule's information was very, very good on That information, sir / been unclassified. Senatém Baker. I am speaking more of relationship. Mr. Angleton, in India. But the Way he went about 3 do you know Sidney, es think4this, and so on -- it was that sort of thi Sa Senator Baker. Do yousthink he had a source in India? he Mr. Angleton. It sta ted to worry me, because he was talking plutonium, which was scientific. Gottlieb, before he went to that whole departme t of his, was transferred to Carl osha, fia om is the rth Gottlieb left. S Senator Baker. You mean he didn't.-want to work for charge of processing the photographs that were taken in Dr TOP SECRET
we eee eee ee cee bl et ete are Pro’ (Area 202) 544-6000 J > < a ‘ ° < bd O.c. 20003 410 Frest Street, S.E., Wasninaton, Mr. Angleton. His office would have been. Senator Baker, Do you know of that sitdation? LFS -Angleton. No, except -- mMator Baker. Het me ask you this ar that they were implydng that a their source? ay, Mr. Angleton. he only tKing that came up is that when ‘Szulc, but he did not } Sood} Nabe said that one year béifore he ha een Hersh about the submarine a article, and that ,jhad Hersh been a¥Soviet agent, the Soviets would not have rmitted the operati ‘0 take place. Vd And I t6¥d him that he was erronesi Sen to use that guide was sii ly not to understand what thévigame is all about. «\ anagithen Philby was stationed in Washin Lon he helped the Af working on some communications intel i fs led to’ the identification of Klaus Fuchs. %s b Phyiifby being a Soviet agent, the Soviets were prepated to let pees Fuchs go down the drain rather than hurt Philby. is Senator Baker. AS an ultimate cover? Mr. Angleton. Precisely. TOP SECRET
Prone (Ares 202) $44-4008 P > < Ly a [) € < z 20003 410 Feest Street, $.6.. Wasningtan, O.C. covered he would have been today Chief of British Inteldfigence. In the case of George Blake, who was in the British Now, eVen one year in advance, they’ took no preventive action in orderXto save George Blake,/. Now, ‘ehappened since intelligence communi § ae ees the ppition that Hersh enjoys, with the prestige and the impact oh U.S. public, it stands to reason that you can't get\thém to give any baby talk as to what the Soviets would or would Ngt do, when you see something that is the objective roy end o€sthe last war to the present, and destroy the agent / \ Senator axel! Do you thinkSBersh is a Soviet Agent?. Mr. Angleton. I am not saying tha’ e is a Soviet ; \ o\gee Wells, who ae agent. To Zp with, when I went back was in counter intelligence with me in LondonNduring the war, wf ction of Dr. Mann's name and so on simply didn ter, and something was wrong. But Dr. Mann is a suspect Soviet agent, a friend of TOP SECRET
re z Prone (Ares 202) 544-6008 2 3 «< a q o £ < z 410 Forest Street, S.£., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 indication that 5 Mr Angleton. Bilthe am prepared to ante, cryptonym Easy Chair in Senator Baker. mr. Angleton. sanctified word in od source within the Agency or the way I look at it, I in the Mr. Schwarz. This is Szulc? Mr. Angleton. This is Szulc. TOP SECRET
And with Wells' background, the New York Times/abroad, nd s time abroad, apparently -- , Sénator Tower. Excuse me. Will you go bag just a bit here? YO aised a question of how did szulé ou the name of Mann and kne Ss Ts Mr. Angleton. Yes. Senator TOWET. How do you thinky, Mr. Angleton... either unwitting, or has ,ag’sou 4 7 chievously exproi elgg im | therefore it case) an = J owe 2 é ~ a @ : € « - 3 Cc. CS 1G ™~ a iaving a rough time of saving a veny” lucrative / with Penthouse for supplying X a 410 Fast Street, $.E., Wasningtion, O.c. 20003
de Abeta a eae ee BR ee Prone (Ares 202) 544-6008. WARD ® PAUL 410 Ferst Street, $.E., Wasnengton, D.C. 20003 Mr Angleton. Senator Tower. The KBG knows this, and, ceuld have come directly or indirectly from that AMT . Angleton. That is right. ‘Senator Tower. That is a possibility? ¥ Behe fact that he does haves ae F 4 the Roumanian . Ambassador better thanian eae Bes and he knows the and on. So, he is dealing g shad for ahy\other motive. Mr. Angleton. I don't know. Mr. Schwarz. Have you heard that? TOP SECRET