180-10131-10334 v9.1 HW 50955 AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE: DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : DOCUMENT TYPE: CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Doctld: 32277219 JFK Assassination System Date: Identification Form Agency Information HSCA 180-10131-10334 SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY 014732 7 Document Information HSCA [Restricted] 04/28/1978 107 CIA, FILES CIA, METHODOLOGY [Restricted] PHOTOGRAPHS AND FILMS OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO MEXICO TRANSCRIPT Top Secret 1A Redact 02/26/1998 Box 8 Page 1 10/19/20
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“aPRANCEEms) - ; TOP SECRET —— . * } eT aii oy Friday, April 28, 1978 in eo - i & Ww i i i U.S. UHo6usecofcRepresentativesjivns , Subcémhitteé -on:the, Assassination Of John F: Kennedy of the oo ao | a Seléct Committee on Assassinations, 9 | | | Washington, D.. C.. | j . 10 | a oo, | Deposition. of. | | BARBARA MURPHY MANELL | 12 | . called for examination by counsel for the subcommittee, 13 . o pursant. to notice, in the offices of the Select Committée on . 14 | Assassinations, Room 3370, House Office Building Annex II, is | 2nd and D Street, S.W., Washington, D. C., beginning at 9:00 | 16 | : | a.m., before Albert Joseph LaFrance,.a Notary Public in and WV | | for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf: of 13 | | the respective parties: | 19 | MICHAEL GOLDSMITH, Counsel, | 20 | DAN HARDWAY, Committee Staff Member | va | 4 | | 22 | | & | eA 73 | | 24 | | | os | | I i TOP SECRET ah SO955 Dacld: 32277219 Page 4
22 3 4 24 <HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 5- TOP SECRET a foo ne tae Toren, ee ‘A he first witness is Barbara M ee WCB Ret Mage we et pee panes OF eel er a eae ee ee r. Goldsmiths. vere Brats ell. ee | | TESTIMONY OF BARBARA, MANELL ree L having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified’as follows: Mr. Goldsmith. State your name for’ thé record.. MrssiManéll. Barbara Murphy Manel'l, “Mrs. Herbet Manel. oe, Goldsmith. Are you presently employed? | Mrs. Manell. -No. a | | Mr. Goldsmith. You are not presently employed now? | Mrs. Manell.. No. Mr. Goldsmith. Were you former ly employed with the~ Central Intelligencé agency? | 4 _ | Mrs. Manell.. Yes. Agency? Mrs..Maneli: From 1952 until-the sumer of 1959 as an “employee. Prom the sumier ‘of 1959 until 1965 as a contract | employee atthe Mexco City station. ‘Mr. Goldsmith, Sancesl965?o00 ~ii% the seen | " BARBARA MURPHY MANELL, " | 4 1 | | } | if | | | \ Mr. Goldsmith. For how many years did you work with th _ Mrs. Manell. No connection with the CIA. B have not. worked since 1965. Oe Mr, Goldsmith, Mrs. Manell, I want to explain to you ' that under-the Committee Rules the witness has the right to. | BO coe . | COOGEE |
= if a aa receive a copy of his deposition statement. However, by virt e ON | 2 of the understanding that the Committee has reached with the oO less come offices. | { | i : Mr. é i | | | if | i A? | examine the latter. Have you done that? | e ‘ a . a Mrs. Manell. -I have lookéd at this, yes. 19 | Mr. Goldsamith. Do. you understand the letter? . | Mrs..Manell. Yes. ; 7 r. Goldsamith.. Do you understand by virtue of the , ® 7 “ 22 | letter you-are. releaséd from your secrecy obligation insofar Ne 3 1 as answering questions that are relevant to'this Committee's ' 7 investigation? , os) 8 ae 0 aan oo, (25 1 "Mrs. Manell... Yés, I understand that... | | Awa Wad | Oo104a i , HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 6 Central Intelligence Agency, Mrs. Mrs.. Goldsmith. I would like to show you a copy of a with JFK Exhibit Number 94. I would like to ask you to” Go that right. — Are you willing to waive that ight? coe Manell. Yes. Golasmith. At the same time, I would like to |...’ — receive a copy of the deposition you may” nohe the - here and read the deposition statement ‘at our Gi Do you understand that? Manell. Yes.. letter that was. sent to the Committee Chairman,. Mr. Stokes, 4 by Mr. Carlucci, who was atethe tdméethe Acting Director of | “ Central Intelligence. The letter for the record corresponds L would like to. ask. you to waive | eiplain | to you even ‘though you have waived the Fight to etwas
} ; . ‘s J. Mr. Goldsmith. For. further background purposes, I —_ 2 want to explain to you the mandate: of the Committee, in other ‘words, the scope of the investigation. We’ ae charged with investigating the death of President Kennedy and that encom-— ‘passes who killed President Kennedy, was’ there a conspixacy; what was’ the effectivenessaéf the investigative agencies, specifically the FBI and the GIA, what rélationship dia the ‘PBI and CIA have with the Warren Commission. : So the mandate, ‘itself, is quite broad... Do you under= stand that? a Mrs. Manel. Yes, I understand that. Mr. Goldsmith. Have you discussed the testimony that ~ you. are about to-give today with anyone from the Central . . we ony ‘ a a a ea faa LETS MSS TUSSMESOONS NRE 3 Se i ee Soe ae Ss = . = a a CR ar TY : = Ad Intelligence Agency? 15 Mrs.-Manell. With no one except my husgand the day we 16 | were all togeither . Since’ then I have not discussed it with 7 him. 7 | 13 Mr. Goldsmith. You are reférring to the time you met 19 with three Committee staff members and conducted a fairly 20. Ainsdepth interview?, Be eas | 21 Mrs: Manéll. Yes," at the Central “tntelligence Agency. 22 - Mr. Goldsmith: Other. than at that ‘time, you have not NF “3 | discussed the Committee's investigation or your testimony “in 24 | any way? | | | ; ? 2s Mrs. Manell. No, I have not discussed that with anyone. | Coe | Co. 7 . . ; | : .. vate, HW 50955 | pocrd:39277919 Page 7 m ' TOP SECRET we Fe
TOP SECRET os Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963 where were you working for the | —_ 2 | CIA? 3 Mrs. Manell. In the Mexico City station. S 4 Mr. Goldsmith. What were your responsibilities at that . 5 | time? oo 6 Mrs. Manell. “I was Assistant to the Head of the Soviet 7 Section and IT was not a full time employee. We had small. 8 children thatewere born there through the péefiod that I was | 9 stationed there and I would say that I gave four to five hours 10 a day in the Embassy. Mr. Goldsmith. Who was.the Head of the Soviet Section? Mrs « Manell.. Herbert Manell.. Mr. Goldsmith. He is your husband? Td Mrs. Manell. Yes. 15 Mr. Goldsmith. *Specifically what responsibilities did 16 |} you have in 1963 when you were working for him? . | A? Mrs. Manell.. Well,.our job was, 1 would Say, was counter 13 counter-espionage and FE, meaning that we were reseonotncie fh 19 trying to identify ‘and mitigate any efforts on the part of | 20 the Soviets to work against American officials, American 4 21 businessmen, Mexican personalities, and also to identify ‘the | : | 22 Soviet. intelligence ‘persons at the Soviet Embassy, KGB” and GRU & ; -_ | US 31 and to mount operations against them. 24 AS mnt : se ee I ce ee ee ee San See se ar | | . . _. | We had many support functions in operation at the | Embassy and part of my job wastto assist.. | | | | 0041643 HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 8 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET ss | | Mr. Goldsmith. Before we go on, I may have left out. ond other. important question. For the record, are. you testifying | " here today voluntarily? i Mrs. Manell.. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. under no compuslion whatsoever? — Mrs. Manell.. None. | Mr. Goldsmith. pid your work in Mexico City involve ” responsibility. for various survelliance operations against ~~ ‘the Soviet Embassy and Consulate? Mrs. Manell. “I would .say that I looked at the tape fro | 0 serepons suveitate that vw had. | | 120 Mr. Goldsmith. In addition to that, what other type @ _ 13 oo 1d ‘Mrs. Manell. I had nothing to do with’ them but I am |. aware of them: Is that what you want to know, what they were Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. Mrs. Manell. We had photographic surveillance. That 19 terms of two teams Ifbelieve we had at that time, which was’ | . 20 unilatenal. 7: 7 va Mr. Goldsmith. By unilateral you meah that the operas | | of surveillance operations were there, to your knowledge? | | | | : t 22 x tion was controlled by the station as opposed to a joint effort 3 { i } | | | 18 | was unilateral. ° We had unilateral physical surveillance in | i | | : by the Mexican Government? . | | | i | . 24 . Mrs... Manell: Yes. . The ‘telephone operations were joint; | - : i . en ; . 2s | except that occasionally we would have unilateral setups. | —— socraseirve1 see 9. TOP SECRET oN meres a
Mr. Goldsmith. © Your specific responsibility with | | regard to these surveillance operations was what? - Mrs. Manell. . Was to review the tape of the telephone — tap. I did not have’ to do with photograhic surveillance or nothing to do with running the teams. Mr ..Goldsmith. By tape, what ave you referring to? _ Mrs. Manell. ‘the trasncripts’ of the tapes. . Mr. Goldsmith. ‘the transcript and the ‘tapes? Mrs. Manell. No. I had nothing. to do with: the tapes. | I only received the transcripts. 1 would review. them for | information that we would need for our work there. | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Chief of Station in Mexico | city at that time? | Mrs. Manell. Winston MooScott. .~ ‘Mx. Goldsmith. And the Deputy Chief? Mrs. Manell. Warren Dean at one-point. He was there | VW | and then AlanzWhite. I think Tex Puckett was also a Deputy Wo os 8 | in between in the interim,aas'I recall. I. ‘could be wrong — 19 | about who was theré specifically. at this. time because we were 20 [ thére six years. As I say, I. haven't. réfreshed my memory by 2] | rookie any files. - a 22 I rn oe . Eo 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Was Ann Goodpasturé an employee at the | - a oe ne ne rn tal 3 oS Se _ | Mexico City station at that time? 24 | re Ca Bok Bek, a Ly - Mrs. Manell... Yes, ,she was... ; 5 f Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibilities, if any, did she ‘ : Do ‘TOP SECRET = OH. HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 ‘Page 10
1 | she have with regard to the ‘telephone tap operation? | . | who. logistically got. the materials, just how it worked out’. But usually she was the. one who deliveréd them to our section in oo sd Or : : : Mrs.. Manell. I don"t know the mechanics of that, of. Mr. Goldsmith. You say she delivered them. You mean 6k she came into the. station and delivered the transcripts to: you? Mrs.-Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. How often did she do that? Mrs. Manell. ‘Every morning, I believe. “I did not want " to get. into the whole business because I am hot clear ‘on ver: 12 | just what the cutouts were and who met whom.and all that. | @ 3 | Mr - Goldsmith. For the record again, I would like’ to | | - knowledge. If you don't have personal knowledge, just say so. tell you that all my questions will be askéd only for persona} “Mrs..Manell. I mean I have vague ideas but I never asked if I don't actually ‘know. <I will “say I don't know. Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Pine: As .for “Ms.:‘Goodpasture, did she have other responsibilities in the Mexico City station?” ° - Mrs. Manell. “She ‘had to do, with the photographic sur- i | i t | | i | i oo ae OC . 7 | anyone, is that so or is this so? So I will just say then © | _ le a : | | 22 | veillance.. She supervised the development of the ‘photographs. @ ! . . Ke 73 : which wre done in the station. She had several things that . 24 | she did for Mr. Scott of which I am not aware: She always” . SO ; 25 | had various cases. I-never discussed them’with her. HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Bage 11 .
1 | Mr. Goldsmith. ‘To, your knowledgé, was Ann Goodpastute + mm a 2 Winston Scott's right ‘hand person? . 3 a Mrs. Manell.: Yes, she was. @ .4 “Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a good relationship? Choy weed 7 ‘5 Slase Mrs goMahelliec¥espstheyiwere close personal firends as 6 well. vik sola iA, a : | | >i _ Mr. Goldsmith. Was she closer to Winston Scott than — | 8 other employees at the station? . ; ae : 7 Mrs. Manell.- I think another fairly close friend of - | Scott was Dave Phillips. I would say he had a close personal relationship with him. MrzoGoldsmith.. Phillips and Goodpasture had the closes personal working relationships? - Mrs. Manell: Also. I think Puckett at one time did and EstahiCona. I think they were, it maybe exaggerated -- I am not, sure, I know Estan Cona used to drive Mr. Scott’ to - various things. I had the feeling that they were closer than some of the rest. of us. 1, = | “Mr. Goldsmith. . So there was a handful of people who werje significantly closer. to Mn. Scott and. it is fair to. say that Ms. Goodpasture was among that group? 22 Mrs. Manell. Yes. “ a oa Mr. Goldsmith. Continuing with Ms. Goodpasture, was she 24 «| gnvolved in supervising the tap operation? _ Mrs. Manell.  Logistically you mean?.. She had nothing. = 5S WW 50955 DoclId: 32277219 Page 12. 7 . ET ,
| TOP SECRET = to do With supervising what we did.’ If you mean logistically supervising it, yes. a | | Me Goldsmith. How do you know that? © Mrs. Manell. Because she is the. one. who deliverea the transcript to us and I know that she had to do with obtaining them, Mr .. Goldsmith. “Di you know Tom Keenan? Mrs. Manell. Yes. . . | — ; | Mr. Goldsmith. What was. his responsibility? | |? Mrs. Manel'l:* He worked with‘Annie and with -- I don't know whether he actually: workediwith Estan Cona. but they did | the same kind of things. | } 7 | Mc. Goldsmith. Did Tom ‘Kecnan’work’in the tap operatio ?. Mrs. Manell. Yes. | | | Mr..Goldsmith.. Was he in charge of that operation or ” TT eS ca se ca SNR LET ON PITFa TT OPTQRRTT tHe Soran ASLAN RENAN AY NAY ONT was Ann Goodpasture his supervisor? Mrs. Manell: — You see, I am not clear as to who replace - oO . 12. I associate. Tom with Annie Simply becaiise “she was ‘seniot to ||. 19 him and they were doing the same kind of work. I had ne 4 20 | feeling that she took him under her wing. He was new. He wag 21 | a new Jot, a Junior officer. trainee, type when he came to us. | m _ | . _ | ' _ 22 Mr. Goldsmith... The Soviet operation was an extremely | sd 73 sensitive operation, was it not, I mean’ the tap against the. | |) soviet Embassy? | | - 25 Mrs. Manel. - The telephone tap? a . | . — LBA | 7 .. OO ee HW 50955 poctd:32277219 Page 13
TOP SECRET ou | ! 1 | . Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. , ao 24. Mrs. Manell. Yes. 3 Mr. Goldsmith. So it is unlikely that Keenan would have | | see been given responsibility for suerpvising ‘that operation as he was just a new officer? Mrs. Manell. Well, he was being broken ineto do a number of different things, as I recall, and I thought he worked with her. Now, I could be mistaken’. - Mr. Goldsmith. Who actually made the policy decisions regarding the operation of the tap against the Soviet Embassy | Which phones. would be covered? into and dipped your hands into it. Wé checked with her’ ””: | Mrs. Manell. Those were already made before. we arrived & 13 ! I am sure. it was Mr.. Scott who made those decisions. Our | oe id I predecessors might have suggested which sections of the | Is Embassy would be the best ones to tap. For example,. the | 16 | commercial office was one of the taps we had. The Consular v| Office. There were several others. na 18 Mr. Goldsmith.. Was.Ms. Goodpasture also involvéd in a 19 | supervisory role with regard to the photé=surveillance opera-| 20 | tion? | | Mrs. Manell. Whenever I wanted’to seé anything that | yo 22 | had to do with that I always sent to her and asked her about | ® 73 : it. She -- thatwwas not something ~~ they were kept in the - | 24 | file room in Registry but it was not something that one went | as i | | | |  oet0ds TOP SECRET HY 50955 BoclId: 322977219 Page 14
1S 16 22 33 24 _ ape npnarne Anie ERED AEE Em ee NA TERE BO A shen ae etre gt errr aPOeasae ane ne a Wa eens rac Soa ae ee RSNA ASN ANN SNE TINIE aN SS eee cemeteries - “here during. this period or am fa confused? Was he there | to those photographs? Mrs. Manell. As far as I was s concertied she Was. did not go in there ‘and look for things. tf I wanted ‘to see something | or I needed. an. opportunity to try’ to identify, something, I would go to her and -ask her about it. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know. if she “was > designated formally as supervisor of. the surveillance Openation, photos” surveillance operating against the Soviets? first. ; “Mr. Goldsmith. She was the person who controlled acces 1 Mrs. Manell. “Tam trying. to think if she wasn't, who” was. As far as I Know, I would say she was, yes. But, 1 ati” % still not clear as. to. what Puckett did at that point,“ Was’ he earlier?» te, Goldsmith, who? “Mrs. Manell.- Puckett. Mr. Goldsmith. will you spell the’ last: name? | | Mrs. Manell. P-U-C+K-E-T-T. I don' t know whether ani ~— whether they overlapped or what.. I’ served there, from 1959 to 1965. As I told you, I haven't looked | at. the files now. — I may have misplaced him in the history of this thing. time period we are talking about, now is 1993. Mrs.. Manell. You see, I am just trying to think. ‘I am re vedas pesos 4 | j | | Mr.-Goldsmith. TI would like to ‘stress’ again that ‘the | a | i t im HW 509455 DBocld: 32277219 Page 15 TOP SECRET
fe ow ra 22 24 HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 16 S ¢ co ; 13 “to show you a CIA document. ‘For the purpose of the record, document by any ‘particular exhibit. number For the future ~ _ TOP SECRET 7 a ee all that clear. Mr: Goldsmith. Either Goodpasture or Puckett | was in | charge of the photo-surveillancé operation. ‘Mrs. Manell. I would say it was Goodpasture because I can't think of anyone else who would have’ more’ responsibility. than she. Mr. Goldsmith. To refresh. your memorny now. I am going I would like to state that this is CIA Document Number * ‘170. The procedure that has been adopted for identifying CIA docu- ments has been to wfer to them. by the ‘number which. has been assigned to each document by the CIA and to’ refer to the I will be referring to CIA document: numbérs’ and I. will not be referring to any particular. JFK exhibit’ number. The CIA numbers correspond with the numbers of any CIA documents that - have’ been used fat the Comittee" neakings.” Referring ‘your attention to CIA number 170, the middlée of the page, at says: "Unilateral. Photo, Soviets. Why don't you read that section for the relevant years. Accord=— ing to this document it seems that ae | Mrs. Manel. - You mean these peopie fall in this “eatte= gory? Mr. Goldsmith. Yes, labeled "Unilateral Photo, Soviet. " Mrs. Manell. We had nothing to do with it. | | | | | | | | | ao Soros |
TOP SECRET oe a oa tr ! Mr. Goldsmith. You didn't think Widliam Bogg had -any- 3 assistant. I don't-see why he would have any special -- any more than I did, just go in and ask to look at some thingg. But that. is not right. thing to do with it? ‘|. Mrs. Manell. No, because he becamé’ my husband's’ Mr. Goldsmith. What. about THomas Kéenan? 8 Mrs. Manell. ‘That is what I_mean. H& €its in there: oh 9 but I never knew how that was broken down. T would not’ 4 10 object to that. He was here mich before us. 7 | " . oe Mc. Goldsmith. You are referring to Harry Mahoney? - 12 | | Mrs.: Manell. Yes. 7 e& ae 13 : | Mr. Goldsmith. According to this; it indi-ates that 14 | ann Goodpasture. was charged or involved. in this project from | - 1s | May 1957 to August 1964. It would indicate’ she was the mo | | 16 | alternat CO and internal routing. — During that time period | . M7 | roughly corresponding we have Louis Pickett and Thomas Keenan. Mrs. Manell. That is why you see, Iam. confused about! || | 19 “which of these, you ‘see. : oa Mr. Goldsmith. You are not sure if iv was Goodpasture | | or Puckett that was the supervisor? on 7 of ; ; vs i _ an 22 | Mrs. Manell. TI would have. to séé“howelse they eate+” | bad - 33 | gorized Puckett and then I could maybe tell which was his” _ 24 | primary function. That is why I am not clear on that. T | Se 25 | know they all had to do. with that. I. wouldn't say that “he: wa % ae 4 i ee JOP SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 17 , P6788.
TOP SECRET i | | especially because he did the work, some of the type work of | my husband. ‘Mr.. Goldsmith. You are referring to Mr. Mahoney? Mrs.GManell. Yes. Perhaps in Mr. Mahoney's time he. dd this time. Le 8020 £65: Be : | | | 3 perhaps had more to do with itebut we had nothing to do with 6 it except to ask to look at various 5 alid “Sundry -- 7 Mr. Goldsmith. And Goodpasture was actually involved 7 8 in the photo-surveillance operation, to = your knowledge? 4 | Mrs. Manell. Yes. Could I say ‘Something without: _ ! 10 | being written down? | "| Mr. Goldsmith... Off the record. ” 2 (Off the record discussion) . & 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. On the record, | | | We just had a 30 second off the record’ discussion = 1s during which the witness asked me whether: TI had any table | | | 16 Listing. Agency employees in Mexico City and what their: respon w sibilities were during the period involved. © Toindicated to | 13 Mrs. Manell. that CIA number 170 is thé closést thing that we aan have to a table. | a 20 | Let us go into a bit more detail on the telephone tap se | operation. | . { i 22 | First, with the unilateral operation. What telephones’ | wo “3 | were the subject of taps? | | 24 Mrs. Manell. I couldn' t remember. that “specifically ve | i | HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 16 TOP SECRET
| TOP SECRET — oe ae Mr. Goldsmith. Not the specific telephones tapped == Mrs. Manell. Perhaps some Soviet that we had targeted, you mean that we thought might be vulnetable, we might tty. to set up a tap on him? 1. couldn't tell you any of the numbers) who the people were. a - | Mr. Goldsmith. I don't want the specific numbers. °” > * But there was a unilateral operation and liaison operation, | is that right?. | | ; | 9 Mrs. Manell.. Yes. gee ee : 10 Mr. Goldsmith. bid they cover the same phones? | iD Mrs. Manell. No. So — So oe | 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know in what way they were © °°) & 13 different? | ma 14, Mrs. Manell. - The. bilateral covered the Embassy, | Consulate and the Commercial Office. It was all located in- @ ?) = = coe —y = = ar nan Sele re SS TO OTTO TT ; are nnn nn arn tn ye ne me <tc en = icinnnee one building. I think there were four or five. I am rot “sure 7 | of that either. 18 : The unilateral =~ I am not clear on this but as I recall, — 19 | we would occasionally work. out these unilateral telephones : | 20 || taps on Soviets who became of interest to the station. In | |: 2 other words, those that we had targeted.as possibly being” | - e rn , | vulnerable or we were trying to identify whether they were ~ | re 73°] KGB or GRU.. a 7 34 yo “Mr. Goldsmith. Would the office telephones be tapped or] . i . Loy 2s " home phone? | 1 Oo Oo EOS | . TOP SECRET = | WW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 19 ial .
a) ' 22 24 HY 50955 DBocld: 32277219 Page 20 matic kind of tap?. Whenever the phone call’ came in it would ‘yes. awhile. - 4 2 ee | | Mrs. Manell: ‘They could.be sitting in the office where | we had the tap or it could be that they didn't: i don't remember. | | | | | | Mr. Goldsmith. Staying with the unilateral operation what was ‘the scope of the operation? By that I mean with, regard to each phone that was being tappéd, was the tap — constantly in effect or in effect. just during working hours? ‘ Mrs. Manell. I don't remember. trigger the tap? - Mrs.. Manell. ‘Yes, it would. go sémething like that,’ Mr... Goldsmith. How thorough was the unilateral opera" tion? | Mrs. Manell. 1 couldn't say. ‘T think we would put it on sporadically. :We would :put it on for a icertain period of time and T'can't tell you how long;" , ? : : a . wise we would cut it out. Mr. Goldsmith. And change to anothér ‘target? Mrs. Manell. Possibly, or just not have anything for - “Mr. Goldsmith: Turning now to the liaison operation, I believe’ you indicated before that the subjects of both taps TOP SECRET Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall wehther it was an ‘auto months... If something came-of it’ we -might* ¢ontinue it. Other- Geiss
TOP SECRET = 1 were. the: Soviet Embassy and Consulate: of fices? ce | Mrs. Manell.. And Commercial Offices? ~ Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately how many phones wet bein tapped?. Mes. Manell. ‘I cthifikthereowene about: four or five.” I could be wrong.. I am’ sure there was: onefidnithe Commer ical office. Iam sure there was ‘one in’ thé’ Coristilar office 1” am not sure whether there were one or tio “in the Embassy. ‘So, let us cut that back then to Four’ at‘ the most. ‘Mr. Goldsmith.£To0 your knowledge,’ this operation was ” supervised by Ann Goodpasture? So aeeccen eee eee a LO TN NN ATT NS AN NOT ' rt enn * : ee eameerre eaten ene attests neta a ype are sess nen natn 9. ret sanguine eed ngQa ene 9 nr nnn ae tone et ret el, in nnn “etn neat 12 Mrs. Manell. It is just that I am not clear about Ann ah 13 Goodpasture and Estan Kona. 1 just don't"know, did she have oe id that responsibility, because that is what’ 1 am not clea abou 15 . Pr swreMbenGoldsmith. ‘I have been informed that Estan ‘Cona 16 left in 1962. ar Mrs. Manell. ‘Well, I would say yes; “that Ann Goodpastu _ - 138 had that responsibility. oan | . 7 - 19 Mr Goldémith: Did she make the decisions regarding | . oe 20 which phones would be tapped? | ; | oe = 2] tee. Manell. No. . . mos poe mo coe eee ; . 7 . a | | yo 22 | Mra.G6ddsinith. Who would make that decision? _ | . . mo be 3 Mrs .GMadiel 1. Win Scott would make that decision. r | 24 would assume he would check with the Soviet Section. However , cn 2s as I explained to you,. these were all’set up before ours” | HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 21 TOP SECRET |
TOP SECRET — 1 arrival. r. Goldsmith. I presume that this tap operated in the same manner as the unilateral one in that a phone call would -come’ in and the tap would automatically be triggered? Mrs. Manell. Yes, that is correct. Mr. Goldsmith.” How did the product of the tap vate the station? What was the procedure, in’ other words? © SS en RS RTT NTN TS A TT Mr. Goldsmith. I don't want yowt'to think that I am = i Mrs. Manell. I don't know the procedure. | | Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying then that all you know | 10 | is that you got the transcript? , | " Mrs..Manell. That is right. ee -| iam Mr. Goldsmith. You don't know <= G 13 | Mrs. Manell. I have vague ideas but’ I-never asked - ~~ id | one about it. So I would rather not be specific since I 15 ! can't be. | ~ { 16 Mr. Goldsmith. No problem, fine. Do you know approxi- V7 | mately how much time it took from the moment that a call was 18 intercepted until you received the transcript? vy Mrs. Manell. I never looked at it from that standpoint | 20 | I just took the tape each day as I got it’ and handled it. | 2) | never occurred to me to look and see what date is this. I” | "5 22 would say within two ‘to three days, perhaps earlier than’ that | e 33 : tf Goodpasture says it was earlier than that, then she would” | 24 | know*. | se | | 801037 TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 22
. . | | ; . : looking for any particular answer one way or another. | . 4 ne ' Mrs. Manel. All I dia was when it came in I knew. it Oe 3 was the latest and I knew T had to take’ care of it and I did? eo - 7 a Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter. of routine it would be two - | | . 5 or. three days? | og Mrs. Manel. I would say so but if someoné else who" | 7: handled it said it was. one diay. L am not ‘disputing that... ro 3 | don't know. | * | . | oo | Mr. Goldsmith. “How many years were you involved in | 10 | reviewing the transcript? . re, Pus a oe | " 7 | Mrs. Manell. From the time of my arrival iA the: sumer oe am of 1959 until we left and I think it was the “summer of 1965. eB | 43 I. know it was 1965. I believe it was ‘the Summer. | ve 14 Mr. Goldsmith. ‘During those years you reviewed the | “4s | transcripts Erom these various tap opérations?’ _ ee | 16 | 7 Mrs. Manell. Yes. | | 17 | “Mr. Goldsmith.” You would have a fairly good idea then 38 on the average amount of time that would’ pass from the moment | 19 ‘of a call coming in util you received a transcript? rt seeng i. to me after. working. oi that for that many’ years you should Be] — 4 | familiar with it. | os | @ : 3 22 | Mrs.. Manell.. - I was more interested in the tape os | ee - 33 | than I was in the logistics of “it all’: ‘As I say, I never ~ | . u | looked at the date atid said "Oh my gooanés's, ‘today we missed, | D 25 | there are two or three days passed, it should have been® oo | ns Le HW 50955 Decla:32277919 Page 23 TOP SECRET | :
: yesterday." I never looked at it from that standpoint. Io me 2 || was only concerned with what was of interest to the Soviet a 3 Section in the tape and that is all I looked at. Iwas not | > a 4 || conscious of looking at dates. Mr. Goldsmith. “As a general rule though,. you felt that |” ywyou were reviewing recent materials? Mrs... Manell. Exactly, as they Game in I received them) in other words. | Mr. Goldsmith.’ To the best of your tiemory, it would have “40 | os | : been two or three days? 12° |. shorter than that. e@ : | | : | | Mrs. Manell. That is right. | | Mr. Goldsmith. Do. you know if you wot receive neta Td transcriptions faster than you would receive English trans” “15 | criptions? | a | | 16 Mrs. Manel. yes, we aia. | 7 Mr. Goldsmith. | Why was’ that? . . 138 Mrs... Manell. ABedause the Russian’ part of the tape | 19 would have to be transcribed after the ‘Spanish translations”: | 20 ‘were done by our Russian translator. | 2 “Me. Goldsmith. To clarify, if a call’ came into one of | e 4 - 220 the tapped phones and the: conversation-wasiin Spanish). all | Ne 3 that would happen with that conversation is that fe would be | |e immediately transcribed in Spanish? | | | 25 | | | ~~ TOP SECRET — | 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 24 |
a | re) un ae G) ND aa 22 24 . croprr («0B HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 25 TOP SECRET re TOP SECRET = 22 | Mr. Goldsmith. You were familiar with Spanish? Mrs. Manell. Right. | Mr. Goldsmith. So that conversation did not need to” ~ be translated from Spanish into English? Mrs. Manell. That is right. Mr. Goldsmith. Therefore that could go to you right™’ away? | Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. As opposed to a call coming in in- Russian, that would have to go. to the Russian translator who would translate itefrom Russian into English? Mrs. Manell. ‘Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. It would take somewhat more time for’ hi to get the transcript to you? Mrs. Manell. Yes.: As I understand it, the Spanish en : transcriber would mark in some fashion that' part of the tape that had the Russian section on it.. When the Russian trans- lator got that he would just have to move to those various” sections. That would help him considerably: So that there”™ might be then a day elapse there or a half day elapse. Mr. Goldsmith. Were most of the conversations. that you read Spanish or English: in other words, percentage-wise how many of the transcripts had to: go to thé’ Russian translater? ‘Mrs. Manell; I am trying to recall, Iam trying to thin of the batches of papers that came in and ass:I would sée™ a ee mc A a et eae ema
22 3 . | 24 HW 50955 Bocld: 32377719 Page 236 ; - files and that sort of thing, to whom they were speaking. *” . you ‘spent. most ‘of: ‘your time reading ‘Spanish transcripts or! Englishliones? — Tf. -you read English | ones that meant either tha . the person was speaking ‘in “English or it. v-had. been ‘transcribed from another foreign’ language. Mrs. Manell.. I would say that. Tr would’ look quickly through the Spanish. My Spanish is good” enough for me to . ‘quickly -look through ie If: it’ was ust” legitimate business’ something. -= _ Mr. Goldsmith. - In other words, do you recall whether | | between the Embassy and someone on ‘the outside in “Spanish ro "| would scan it. When ‘I got to something transcribed into ~~ English from Russian 1 would take more ‘pairis: with. it because I. wanted to establish relationships and I would want to ’chéck’ Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that ‘responds to the: question. The question is were most of the’ transcripts’ that you read Spanish or were they English’ that had been translated from Russian or was’ itsevenly distributed? Mrs. Manell. If I had them the same day I would “have.” seen piles, you see, and then I would ‘know’ this one was. thick, this was was thin. - But I did not: get “them Both at the same™ time. I. took more. pains, as I say, with that! translated into English. TI would say that I Spent more’ time with that’ trans~ lated into , English. Mr. Goldsmith. ’ When you received a transcript did you _
| receive the original? | Mrs. Manell. I don't knew. I received, ‘I think they 3 were yellow ‘copies. : | "Mr. Goldsmith. Carbon copies? Mrs. Manell. I did not receive the original. “The original I guess would have been put in a regular file with | only the originals in it. I would have gotten carbon copiés. yello carbone copies. as “1 recall. Mr. Goldsmith. “Were ‘the English translations literal ©  Mrs.-Manell. Yes. 12 ate a 113 Id “Mr... Goldsmith. “They wre not summaries;iother words? Mrs..Manell..’ .No, they; were litéral translations. Mr. Goldsmith... What abot. the Spanish transcripts you — ae ne 1s od saw? Mrs. Manell. -I-think some of thdse'might have. been | rece oon by summaries, as I recall. Mr. Goldsmith.. Did the transcript contain marginal notations? In other words, comments by ‘tHe person transcrib= | “ing or. translating? 7 . o - ; Sa a a gL Se PS SAT aT Oar OCONEE PSA EE ITO RTT SE Co ETT Mrs. Manell.. I think we discussed this when I saw you | 22. 24 ‘the first. time. At that time, I. said no. But I do remember that the Soviet Section asked the Russian: translator to* | | | | | | { | | | | | | indicate, when he could, the tone of voice; “the attitude of the on 2 ts an = | person toward the other person, that sort of thing. As I: | \ i The oo “genes? 7 TOP SECRET - | bee BY 509455 BDoacld: 32277215 Page 27
] “s§ oH. in i ces) oo. - 10 Ju 29 KE | | 24 a5 i t ’ ees) a . HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 28 °° °° TOP SECRET 7 : recall in parentheses there was a commend made by the trans- i | “jator... But he would.never summarize, he would be literal in. the tranScription but he would have parenthetical expréssions. Mr. Goldsmith. Like "he sounds angry"? Mrs. Manell. ves, that is right. oe Mr. Goldsmith. . Who was the Russian translator? * ©" Mrs. Manell. Boris. oo ‘Mir. Goldsmith. navasoff. Mrs. Manell. - Yes. Mrs.Goldsmith. Was. he generally ‘competent and reliablé Mrs. Manell. Yes. “My husband put him in for promotion as I recall, because he was much better than ‘the usual trans= ‘cribers. He was very, very accurate and I-think he had” a: ¥éa feel for it. | | | Mr. Goldsmith. after you reveiwed the transcripts what “aid you do with them? Mrs. Manell. “E would route them to' Mr: Scott and to an others who would have need of knowing ‘about them. _ I would -have them sent to Registry and I would indicate where they were tO be filed in Registry. | Mr. Goldsmith. By Registry you are référring to “the - place where the transcripts were generally stored? Mrs. Manell. ‘Yes, to our whole storage area, the’ area’. for all the files of. the station were kept there. We were not to have our own little files. .We would. keep some “little yon SE ORCS 7; SONNET © JO
i | on un i a oo 10 ab 22 24 HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 29 — ‘TOPSECRET things but everything was to be put in the general files. We were not to have any of our own little squirrel files. ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that Mr. Scott was meticulous about the files at the Mexiéo%City station? Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. In fact it is said’ of him that he would not throw out a single piece of paper? Mrs. Manell. ‘That is certainly “tie!” Many times ‘I’ voc}© would not indicate, for example, on somes of these transcrip=s tions we might have “to card names. -If I did not indicate that a certain name Should be carded because I thought it “was’ unimportant, for example, Rostropovich"s namie, the fact’ he” gave a concert in Mexico City, if I did not do that, Mr. Scott would marke it and he would send ‘it’ back to me sor’ could see that he had marked it for carding and for rétention and that I. should have done that.ieBecduse he kept every sor'a of information it was very, very useful when we did any’ CE" studies as you can imagine, because it is easy to have “lots” of material and then discard what you don't need rather than” to have summaries of various and sundry things made by other’ people. - Mr. Goldsmith. By CE summary what are you referring t67 Just tell us what the term stands for. “Mrs. Manell. If we were doing a study on one of the Soviets I would rather have a batch of material that I cowld” a NE a TOP SECRET ce 001084 .
1 | then discard. | a | | | “Mr. Goldsmith. . I understand. I an just trying to e ‘clarify for the. record what does the term CE’ study mean?. Mrs. Manell. Counterespionagesstudyy. | Mr. Goldsmiths | What happened t6 ‘thé Mexico City files” after Mr. Scott died? | | noe | | Mrs. Manell.: I have no idea. Mr. Goldsmith... Were the files intact ‘when you Left?) “Mrs. Manell. When was that? Mrs. Manell. I think -it was in August, in the sumine? of 1965.0. | Mr. Goldsmith. Getting back ot the transcript now “regarded as being particularly interesting or significant? ~' Was there any special procedure you would follow? Mrs..Manell. My husband usually, ‘the Head of the Sovie -Section, usually reviewed the transcript as well. He “probabl: would have seen what’ I saw but if I thought he hadn't. I. would | | | | what would happen if you came across a conversation nen | bring it to his attention and I would ‘take any action that wa appropriate, whethér it was just filing or whether it was ° oo anteahaPORE- en CTEeetaanahare> CGE Ae nt PI CROPS RENARD of te A “PP ee Or SE i, COE tin cee cet c ee neem nee tapas a At eee ann tee terete ener aeons ere re arte er eN  attee—SNTaTS bringing some informatdon to a reports officer, for example,:. 22° of interest to him. oe Mr. Goldsmith. What is a reports officer? ~ cal =. Mo " : a 3 ud | | | or showing it to another section within the station, somethind | | | Mrs. Manell. Someone who writes up the office intelli- | | ead 06E HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 30° TOP SECRET
gence Of the station. ony Mr .. Goldsmith. Where do his reports go?.. To head~ quarters? | SS Mrs. Manell. Yes, Some might be disseminated locally. Mx. Goldsmith. Do you know if there was any special 7 "procedure in effect for getting a tape ts the translator, | Mr. Tarasoff, for example, if the -persén’ monitoring the tap’ | operation considered: that conversation’ to be, considered as i a a i nS eal { | 9 particular conversation to be very significant? Was there” | 10 any special procedure for him to get the tape or the trans-— ia im cript to Mr. Tarasof£ immediately for translation? _ | 12 Mrs. Manel. y Sretand there was, 4 yes, but I-don' te eB 7 13 know.. Sometimes we would tell him to. be on” the lookout for” | we 14 “something. ‘There was contact between Tarasoff ‘and my husband 3 and he maght, say, watch out for’ so and so. we ot Mr. Goldsmith. “There would be similar: contacts then » between yourinhusband and. ‘the ‘person who was actually monitor- ing the tap? prerrernremarnanvr sence eran Sir gee RS TIC TST TOTP a A AE RA a an ea TT a a 19) Mrs. Manell. The Russian translator ; “yes, but not” any’ ae . 20 of the Spanish transcribers. | | 7 | a 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. Your ‘husband would. not ask any of the | i ce 22 Spanish transcribers? | . ® “3 Mrs. Manell. No. 24 “Mr; Goldsmith. Because he did not trust ‘them?” ) Fa] oa. ' Mrs. Manell. No. We had no connection with them. ‘They HW 50955. Bocld: 32277219 Page 31 TOP SECRET
| | were the bilateral. group and we wouldn't -- 1 mean they “ 2 | woud be the Mexicans and they would be cut out between them 3 | and, I presume, and Goodpasturé, We did not have ‘any direct eS . 4 contact with those people. the only people we: were in. touch | 5 with were Boris and his wife. _ me, : 6 Mr. Goldsmith. Tf ‘there was any” special procedure then 7 | for asking the Spanish transcribers ‘to ékpedite something “it: 8 would be an arrangement worked out between the Spanish trans~'| >| cribers and Goodpasture ox whoever the “Spaiiish transcribers’ | 10 ! contact was? ~ | ~ ; "| MES. Manell. - Yes. There was no" need to expose anyone | 12 | at the. station to those people except through the designated’ Ey | 2 | person, a oe 144 Mr... Goldsmith, Turning now to the Photo- -gurveillance © | 1s | operation, do. you know what buildings were the subject of. aS 16 | operation? | - | W | Mrs. Manell. ..Yes.. The Soviet Embassy. ‘13 . Goldsmith. And the Conulate building also? Was 19 there a difference between the Embassy and’ the Consulate? ~ | 20 | _ Mrs. Manell. I have seen. photographs but I am not an | now whether that was separate or whether it was a section Of” | | yo 22 the building. I am not sure now whether it was just one shusge e 7 73 | building on Tacaubya. I am not sure whether that was one | 24 | | i building or whether it was a. building with a separate consulate. _t know. that the Commercial office was ‘locatea there, the Hoyt vet 06 a - — | TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:329277919 Page 32°
TOP SECRET i is | ] | Consulate. and the residence. \ nw ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Basically there was a Soviet compound? Les) ‘Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Which consisted of their various an Mr. Goldsmith... As a matter of routiné you would’ not be! 5 offices? 6 Mrs. Manell. That is right. , r. Goldsmith. Tt was essentially the compound that’ sa 8 under photosurveillance? | . | Mrs. Manell. Yes. | 10 ! Mr. Goldsmith.. Do you know how many’ cameras or photo- | VY | sites there were surveying the Soviet compound? | 2 Mrs. Manell. t don't know the niimber. - & 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. Was there a similar” -photosurved Llancé © | me 14 | operation in effect against the Cuban Embassy and Consulate? as! Mrs. Manell. I would presume so but’ I don't know. ) 16 | r.. Goldsmith. Dida you review photographs from ‘the v surveillance operation? | | i * Mrs. Manell. No. | 19 Mr. Goldsmith.. Did you ever have 6céasion to see any’ | 2 | of them? ; a Mrs. Manell. If I ever saw them they’ were ones that had yO 22 | been selected and. shown to me by Ann Goodpasture for some | e 3 : reason or other. a 24 | ; | of reviewing those materials.? -pvt06 HW 50955 Doclad: 32277219 Page 33 TOP SECRET
Mrs..Manell. ‘No. I'don't believe any case officer at the station could just go in and rifle through those files. - ‘They were considéred very sensitive.” Mr. Goldsmith. “Was Ann Goodpasturé"s responsibility — to review those photographs for the purpose of evaluating their technical quality or for the -purpose of determining a whether a. person of interest, of significance, had been © photographed? | “Mrs. Manell. I would think it would be both. She ‘was ‘a photographer then. She supervised the development of the ~ films, that were done right inthe station. “1 would say ‘both. Mr. Goldsmith. Her. responsibility was not just a tech= Te rene nea eat aetna pe an nical nature? sO : peerage weet tng abate aga naam rea urn ism sm sero en ay earn te nnn OM on gem et A ce en en a ee a A REN | TC RR EUR RUC A ee——r ettt treretinuttntnnrnNn nh SY HE EA ERT - eee een ' 14 | Mrs. Manell. No. “48 Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, my 16 understanding is that you reviewed the transcript as a matter V7. of routine every day? | | 8 | “Mrs. Manell. Yes. 1 Mr. Goldsmith. But the photographs’ you did not review: a 20 | as a matter of routine? — | fot 4 Mrs... Manel. No. . 7 2 Mr. Goldsmith. By everyday ,. seven days a week or just” @ ao io ae | No! 3 | working days? 24 | ‘Mrs. Manells Working days, give days a week. ; iy as r ; Mr. Goldsmith. Monday through. Friday? a vos tesaoxrmn tae TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 34 |
HW 50955 1 ov nr = in dn GP oo 10 J 22. 3 24 DoclTd: 32277219 Page 35 | | not gure, | I don' it know, Consulate were open? | \ Do you know whether there was’ coordination between the photo- | surveillance operation and the wiretap operation? | | | { Mrs. Manell. Yes. . Mr. ‘Goldsmith. Was “the -Photosurveilance operation oO against the Soviet compound in effect.24 “‘Hélirs adday? He | Mrs. Manell. I don't know. 1 don't think they had capability « of shooting at. night. | Mtr. ‘Goldsmith. “During all ‘daylight “hours? | Mrs. Manell. Iam not specifically clear on this but I think they had some time off. I am not sure whether they wer on on weekends. _- don' t know... I had better not say, I-am’ Mr. Goldsmith. What about. - working: days, was the opera~ tion in effect. only during ‘the hours: that, the Enbassy and ue ty at Mrs. Manell. ‘I. don't know. I ‘really’ know next to’ a ee es nothing about the photographic surveilhance. There is no because I was never told. Mr. Goldsmith. You can see I ari notppressing you. . point in my trying to dredge up vague ideas that I have’ : | Mrs. Manell. I will just confuse ‘the issue, it isnot’ | | and trying to dredge | up something. I was’ hever told. | -- ss > | Mr. Goldsmith. © Right. For that reason, I am not’ press-| ing you. Youétell Te if you ‘aon’ t know. and. ‘that will be fine. Mrs. goiore TOP SECRET
Mrs. Manell. I don't quite follow the question. ~ Mr. Goldsmith: Let us “say’the person monitoring the . tap operation picks. up a-conversation that is very interestin Wouldi#he be able to contact the photosurveillance people. and in say, hey, something is-up.. - on ay ) , . mn a i) a - Mrs. Manell. I would presume that” is the purpose: Ir “1 we would presume that one would have to, .yes. 7 | . o Mr. Goldsmith. Would they do that directly. or would “&hi¢ they do it through an intermediary?) 10. Mrs. Manell. ‘LE don't know. a Mr. Goldsmith. How much coordination was there “between the Soviet operationaand the Cuban operation?at the Mexico: City station? | | | | Mrs. Manell. I would. think that if our interests @éuilé coincided there would be, put in general we worked within our own: shops. Mr. Goldsmith. | Did your husband meet ‘as a matter of routine once a week or everyday with. Dave Phillips? . ‘Mrs.. Manell. I don't think so but: you will have’ to 7%! 20 || ask him. As‘I recall, ‘I’ think Mr. Scott “held weekly meetings 271. which might. be the answer to the question but 1 was never ~ 22 present at those. The heads of sections; as I recall were there. ‘ . eae . b> ie] tn 24 St SA SS eS A cect en nen AR AR RO oN EN ST ET ARI “Mr. Goldsmith. ’ Would Ann Goodpasture typically ‘be there, too? tne ae HW 50955 Docld: 33277219 Page 346,
TOP SECRET 4 Mrs. Manell. I would think so, yes. communicating to headquarters. What steps, if any, would the | | | | a ' Mr. Goldsmith. Were reports erequently sent from 3 Mexico City station to CIA headquarters? | , 4 Mrs. Manell. Yes. oe " oe _ § ' Mr. Goldsmith. “That is something that was done as a . 6 | matter of routine?. ae 7 Mrs. Manell.. Yes. | 8 Mr. Goldsmith. What form would ’the report take? — | they be sent be cable? | 10 | Mrs. Manell. They could be sent by Gable or dispatched "| depending on the urgency.. me an | 2 Mr. Goldsmith. What is a dispatch? i 13 | s..Manell. Dispatch is a letter form, the way” the aa i4 | information is sent out. The cable form is the brief, the 1S | brief version of whta the subject is and then it is usually” 16 | followed by a dispatch. 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. How is a dispatch actually communicated lt 18 to headquarters? Is it teletyped? | 19 | Mrs. Manell. No. In a diplomatic pouch?. ‘ 2 20 | Mrs. Manell. Yes. : | 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Before a report ‘would’ be sent to head= | . : i . 7 22 quarters what procedure would the person writing the 33 | report follow? To be more specifics: you have hypothetically | . 24 | now a piece of information that you think’ is worthwhile” a | eo1b72 | ‘vino TOP SECRET HW 450955 Docld: 32277219 Page 37
TOP SECRET as | 1 : person writing the’ “Feport: take £0 make’, sure that the: “informa | oe a 2 . tion he had, was complete and there | was nothing else to add?- a | 3 Mrs.. Manéll. “Tt: depends ‘on the. “bye | "Of report. Te it) . i 4 nn ee categorized’ subjects, one would . 5 _ check with ‘the Registry files and dredgé up ‘all information» 4 available on the’ subject. In addition’ to ‘the particular ? piece of information, one would dredge up 411 information | 8 about that subject and then it might Gr might not be handled” | 9 by the reports officer. | . | Tf it was’ an original type of cable “it would be handled | while we might initiate it, still it would have to be handléa { i | "| by the section. If it was strictly an intelligence cable, «.° | wy the reports officer because there was’ a eértain way it had 7 . { & ‘3 | : ae ‘4 4 to be sent, certain designations and that: sort of thing. a 1s Mr@.Goldsmith. Most reports would be sent by theo 16 | reports officer? « ~ W | | Mrs. Manell. Yes, except that’ now and again she would 18 | be overburdened ‘by reports and periodically we would have. to. He © 19 sort of retrained by her in order to put, all ‘these various‘ | . 20 | cnsssnatsone on the cable. In general, it ‘was done by the” . . | | reports officer. | a e ae a Mr . Goldsmith. Who was the reports officer? | | Ne : | am ors. Manell. Rose Offénbacher. | : i 24 | | Mr. Goldsmith. Before a report ‘would be sent, would a _ 26 | you, fox example, ehck previous transéripts: and the photo- " i a, TOP SECRET re a ro, ca | HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 38 .
BW 50955 10 22 3 4 would be more likely to. check telephone and photos and ask TOP SECRET © oo oo | “production materials to make sure that: in the. case of trans 1. a scripts there wasn't additional relevant méterial ard in case of production materials to make sure -~ Mrs..Manell. That would be more of ‘dn operational type | of cable. That would not be an intelligence cable. Tt woula not involve the surveillance group. Mr. Goldsmith, What is the difference between an opera tional cable and. ansintelligence cable? | | s. Manell.— Well, ‘the tnesitgente atta would Se something that. could | be disseminated within the intelligence © : oe ‘ 4 community and. sthe opéeational cabie vould | have to. do with - operations within our, own agency, -Toméan within what we! were | working on.” It. would not be of any -valué to anyone outside. Mr .. Goldsmith. ‘In which case would ‘you go: to check the transcripts and photos? . Mrs. Manell. In the case of the operational cable we someone to check the phtos for us. Mr. Goldsmith.. What would be. thé ‘purpose in having - them check. that? | | oe Mrs.. Manell. ‘To clarify the situation. Mr. Goldsmith. Just to make sure S the information you: were sending \ was complete? | urs. Manell.- That is right.— Mr. Goldsmith. By an operational,cable to you meana =. tore bei ae ne tm : . : ‘ . . of : Fy ee nent tentiner nen een UREA REE en ER Seen RE Ree Re ream tenn EE | seer CLO eRe eRe Cr as an . .
HY yee : ( . 0955 22 34 24 Bocld: 32277219 Page 40 cable that pertains to an operation that Mexico City station | has in. effect? _ + Mrs. Manell. Or thinking of developing. om other. word: it is not. of interest” ‘to! the “general intelligence community. | Mr. Goldsmith. Were most of ‘the ‘cables that you sent) to headquarters intelligence type cables or ‘operational: ‘ables if you know? | | Mrs. Manell. Operational cables” becaise they would be information on various cases t that we were working on, that ‘our section would be. working on. Dispatches + would be’ ‘sent. | | a The intel Ligence cables ‘would be much rarer where we. would ~t a piece of information of general interest ‘to the intelligence community .. Mey, Goldsmith, In most cases, since ‘thost: of the cables. | were: operational: cases in most ‘cases it was a matter of * | routine, you would check the. transcripts; the : = materials and anything else’ you thought was relevant before © sending the cable? can’ ‘t. think of too many. “instances when. T would be checking on Mrs. Manéll; Yes. Iam trying to think, Tr really a ~ | | | the telephone ‘taps and the phtosurveiliance. Really, what I ‘am thinking of in terms of -+ say we are: interested ina particu~ making a trip to the States, to the border," That would. be? an | | Lar identified Soviet intelligence officer who | perhaps is | i ! [- operational ‘cable, We would want to. take people aware ‘of that | - | { | | ‘obLo7k | TOP SECRET
ad ae in oO wad oo 22 24 WW 50955 DBocld: 322772719 Page 41 TOP SECRET TOP SECRET = ss We would want to mount something to have him watched if he crossed the border, who he saw, what he did. That would not . be of interest to the intelligence community. I would not be checking the photosurveillance or telephone taps particu- larly about that.. Mr. Goldsmith. What would you bé checking in that: — example? _ oo So a | | Mrs. Manell. Perhaps I would have checked there, yes. | Yes, I would have had to to know that he was doing that. We! could have heard about it through othér means. but I think tha I most probably would check that. Mr. Goldsmith. Would you have done that personally or’ would the reports officer have done that?* — Mrs. Manell.. She would not havé“ been’ involved in’ the ~ operational cable. That was done within’ the section. The reports officer had to do only with tHe intelligence cables, not with the operational cables. They were ‘handled within the various sections in the station. Mr. Goldsmith. In that case, the person who would check up on the transcripts, for example, would be the particular person who was in the section ‘sending the cable? — Mrs. Manell. ‘I would think so, yes. ° _Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall doing that yourself on occasion? OOLEZE
Mrs. Manell; Oh yes, ‘that, but not checking, I did not TE a a a ae ER NRC EET ENTE ST red - 2 “just check photographs when I wanted’ to, I would’ goto Annie 3 on photographs... The rest of it, ‘the telephone materials; I would find already filed in the various files that they belonged. in,’ in "p" files, subject files or whatever, or I°* could go to the runs, the chronological ‘runs that were kept; of the bitateral telephone operation. “ Mr.. Goldsmith. . By runs, what do you mean, the trans — scripts? fod 2 Reeser Mis. Manell. Yes. T am sorry. Mr. Goldsmith. What is a 8 file? ‘Mrs. Manéll. A P file is a personabifile. Mr. Goldsmith. . That is a local file kept at the @t °° station? Mrs. Manell. That is right. ce oO om ee en er gS gn Mr. Goldsmith. Its counterpart at headquarters would ge the 201 file? Mrs. Manell. That is’ right. Mr. Goldsmith. Do all CIA stations maintain P files. or #8 that really a procedure that was instituted by Win Scot 4) in Mexico City? 3 ss 22 Mrs. Manell.. They have their. own termine logy for it” Ne 3 | put everyone would have personal files, yes... 34 Mr. Goldsmith. Every. station asa matter of routine ~ [ SES SS a cen TT SG EST A i a BR oS cee a : i nc rc arene er ee meee ne onan re eaten nner S| would have =a a | Ce on ae mo BOL BP HY 50955 Doold: 32277219 Page a2
4 Lol Mrs. Manell.. The equivalent of a 201 file. oN | oe 2 a Mr. Goldsmith. They may not “necessarily refer to it as 7 3 j.-a P file? | - . _ 4 | Mrs.Manell., No, 1 think they wouldn't. T have served | | | 5 in other stations and éhéyndid not call them P files there 6 |. We dia in Mexico City. | ? Mx. Goldsmith. What. criteria ‘were there for deciding 8 | whether a report should be sent!to headquarters? How. did you | py oP ficant to.send a report? ‘| = oom ‘that something | was. sufficiently Signi~ { 1 | WV ' ‘Mrs. ‘Manell. BR lot. of times we didn’ t decide ‘because “’ 12) the reports officer had access to a lot “of ‘the material that SS 13. | we would: have and she would have already madé a decision ‘about Po ; ; a Id) what. was appropriate and what wasnit. “It would be things that - 13 | we developed that she would not: be aware of. that we. would 16 | bring to her attention. x Mr. Goldsmith... Even so, I am sure ‘there was a lot of - 13 | information you had both of an intelligence nature and an . 19 | operational nature. Did you send a cable ‘for each particular | 20 | items 6f information to headquarters? ~ an | Mrs. Manell: It would depend on whether it was a mattey ®@ Foyt 22 of urgency or not. . I would say we sent him, more dispatches~ “| ah 7 3 | than we sent. Cables. : 26 | “Mr. Géddsmith. Cables suggests that the information is |! on ng aa | ae | ue ““ i more important =- . - pe | i. re ORL EPR t HW 50955 Docld:32977219 Page 43
4 Mrs. Manell. Yes. — 2 Mr. Goldsmith... Than dispatch?.. - oo . 3 Mrs. Manell.. Yes. ; ote ye © . 4 Mr. . Goldsmith. _ Would a cable reflect. the particular item being urgent? Mrs. Manell.. Yes. I can think of ‘instances where it might not. I would think in general that is the method ‘that: one would use,yes. . | | ; Mr.. Goldsmith.. “In general if something was of routine - significance it would ge. sent to headquarters by means of dispatch? | Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Tfsit was non-routine, it would be sent | _ pertnennreeiorrer ooh eerae asa a Aga usa nan eigen eter re a7 esa NOTITET APSR Tet ONSET Reamer carr = Sr . : oc ecg a 1s. ‘by cable? a a _ Ts Bee 1$ “Mrs.UMariebl.. Yes. Are you leading up to anything 16 | specific? I may not be on the same wave length that you are” VWison. 12 Mr. Goldsmith. “In response, I really can't tell ‘you whalt | | 7 | So, - | oo: 19) -T am leading up to if anything. However, I want to assure you ee > 4 re - | , | 20 || that I will give you an opportunity to clarify any answer you | 4] have given to me. | . . | @ yO 22 Mrs. Manell. It is just that I thought you would have | Ne *3' | known about cables and dispatches. I am’ wondering, you know, |. 24 why -- | vanes ont . Mre.Goldsmith. I have to state first that by means of | | { | Mt i TOP SECRET — oe iT p78... HW 450955 |‘ Docld: 32277219 Page 44
TOPSECRET i ais | | this procedure I am not really authorized to answer questions asked by a witness but I will certainly give you an opportunity w& to clarify or expand on any. answer you’ have. given. ea ky Secondly,. to answer your question. in part, although we~ da 24 their bailiwick. We were under them geographically. It is true that my husband was in the Soviet Section: | died a 5 have had an interview before, the purpose of the deposition i: 6 to put all of this on the record. In fact,°many of the 7.1 questions I have asked you I know what“the answer is but the” . 8 purpose is still to put it on the record.” | - | | Where would the cable go, once it reached headquarters? | 10 | Mrs. Manell. That would be up to headquarters to decid. "| Mr... Goldsmith. You would send it to the @entral office an -in headquarters or central desk? | “ @ 13 : Mrs. ‘Manell. : Yes. | on | Mr. Goldsmith. The person atethat desk would -- 9° 1s Mrs. Manell. We might decide at’ the station that it | 16 | should go to other stations as well. “We’could make that “°° |) | v| decision locally. ; "| Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that most of the i 19 | information that you and your husband ‘sent to headquarters “| 20 | would have gone to the Soviet RussiaeCounterintelligence an ; a Section? , 4 . 4 22 | Mrs. Manell. It would have gone first ‘to the Western” | hed , Hemisphere Division because we were under them. That was ~ — ' : | | | HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 45 TOP SECRET
-It was carried that way not for that reason, because it was | of ‘interest to the Soviet Section’ they would be automatically niade aware of it, yes. © , Mr. Goldsmith. Would it also go to the Mexican desk? — Mrs. Manell. Within mH" , a Mr. Goldsmith. - fo your knowledge, was information also| ‘transmitted to headquarters by means of “telephone? ‘Mrs. -Manell. I would guess it eoula be but I woula think it would be rather rare... | Mr. Goldsmith. Why do .you think it would be xare? _ Mrs. Manell. For security reasons and also -- you 'know for a matter of record generally things ‘want to be put “on SS rrr NNN NNN NTO RSTO record. Mr. Goldsmith. Tf someone wanted to aovidéputting pea deniarentreirreis rare aasnanin au aniooestoee TeE Mrs. cMatiell:':. ‘I guess anybody could always pick’ up the phone. | Mr .. Goldsmith. Have you ever heard 6£ the term Ua "Unaccountable Pouéh?" Mrs. Manell. I have heard the term, yes. ' A232 So ee a Se a a a a1 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what that means? @ a (22 Mrs. Manell. I guess unnumbered pouch. I don't speci- rn 3. | fically know. _ 24 “Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what it was used for? ae fh ; ‘ : | a“ Mrs. Manell.. No, I don't. 00108407 | something on the record, would he make a. telephone call? ° | | | | | | | | | | HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 46 -< . - TOP SECRET yd
21 | last” time we were together, when I was. interviewed the first 22 |eime, here name was mentioned. But other than that, I don't’ know of her. | 24 | . Mr. Goldsmith. What. would be standard operating procedure | i } t jat headquarters upon receiving a cable? How would they respond? | - it a “Mr. Goldsmith, | Did you ever use one yourself? | - ; ; | Mrs. Manell.. No. | | 3° Mr... Goldsmith. Are you aware of any other manner in @ 4 which a non- record ‘communication could. have been done? ~ 5 ' Mrs.. Manell. “No. As I said before, anyone could pick 6 up a telephone. | 11 mean. n obviously. there’ were rules, we: woutd « 7 not just pick ea telephone and call. 1 teadguarters about : 8 anything. We were | not. permitted to, do. that. We would not. | + do that. What 1 I. mean vas that, vel, a miean. if ‘the Chief of | 10 | Station, for example, wanted to: call” “Sorieone in. headquarters; | | on ly am sure he could pick up the phone arid call. them. 7 a 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know if he “ever did that? e 3 | Mrs. Manell. ..I- don't know.. | on , ld new! gotdenten, Do you know Charlotte Bustof? asf ‘Mrs. Manell.. No. The name is familiar to me and I" 6 |. understand she works in WH Division but I was never in. WH Ho . | Division so I don't know her. 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Dia you know that’ in 1963 she worked on 49 the Mexico Desk? | | | | | a urs. M Manell.. I have: heard that said, yes. I think: ‘the | | \ | | | ; | | 3. OGLD82- tee sexner HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 47
| 1 ; Mrs. Manell. ‘I don't know how.to answer that question. OO 2 I don' ‘t know what you mean. 3 ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Woudd they typically, respond to a cable ‘Mrs. Manell.. Oh,-yes. I. thought you meant within head+ oa : quarters what was their movement.. 6 | Mr. Goldsmith. I may get to that ‘later on. 7 yp A cables ssent to headquarters... a | 8 Mrs, Manell. If it was something specific and we vented | 9 | an answer , yes, they would | anaver, wiostyprobably by cable, : mar 1 since we had sent it that way. “Saying "Dispatch follows” is oa they would normally do it because ‘there would be probably ny) | more than they wanted to put. in the “aispatch. | & 13 | Mr... Goldsmith. How long. did it’ generally take to get a oe ‘Id | response from headquarters? ye is _ Mrs. Manell. I think there is a rulée;.1I don't know, . I 7 16 | thinking back many years ago when I was first in that, a cable 17 | had to. be answered within a certain ‘set amount of time. I . 18 don't know. what’ that is. In other words "it would requikte’ ”” - Wig fast response, as fast as possible.” no r.. Goldsmith. I’ would like now to get into the” al | procedure at headquarters to the extent that you are aware of oy 22 eit. Once ‘the cable came. in who would “make the decision as to e - 3 | where it would be routed? ) 24 ! . Mrs. Manel. ‘The person could tell by the designator ae fi at the top who the responsible -officer was for it. There t ee mettre ene a teeta ed phe en cnn Ant tet’ nth tn ann se Ee SIO © nme HY 50955 ‘Docld: S22 77219 ‘Page 46
TOP SECRET — | a 46 | 1 would be designators. for area division and then for projects | \ ne and so forth. By the tone of it one could tell who was a responsible for that. oN Mr. Goldsmith. The cable itself would have indications particular division. Who would make that décision?. 3° as to who should receive it? 6 Mrs. Manell:. If there was enough‘ put on the tope. “I: 7 ‘am getting into detail. now and I am not ‘answWéring your ques~"| . 8 tion. If it came from our section, if it came from Mexico | oF City station it would go to the Mexico City desk and that’ 10 | would be WH Division. ' "| Could we just wait for just one minute without mes 2 | this all down? _ cs 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. ‘sure, go ahead. ) he 14 ! (Off the record discussion) ! Is Mr. Goldsmith. On the record. . 16 | Who would decide whether someone high up in the Agency v should receive a. particular cable? I imagine the person — "| sending ihein Mexico City station would be able to designate 19 someone high up, DCI, for example, to Sée it. | 20 | Mrs. Manell. Yes, they probably could, yes. 4 a Mr. Goldsmith. What about at the receiving end? Who : a 4 22 | would decide that a cable is sufficiently important to go | ®@ 3 | relatively high up? By high up I mean the DCI or the head 24 | of a particular division or the assistant to the head of a> ‘ as fi / | 1 | HW 50955 Docld:32977219 Page 49 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET = 1 i - Mrs. Manell. Well, the case officer certainly would | not..3¥du mean on the headquarters level who would decide on . ‘HE S Headquarters level who’ higher up in’ headquarters should “ see it? oo vo ee -Goldsihith. FR Right. Mrs. Manell. 1 would guess the “head: ‘of the. WH Division] the head of the division... I mean a case officer would” work” { within his own section, his section headjdland depending on a . te rd oo i a a) what they decided together most probably =- I am not sure whether the head of the division sées every ‘cable. | I would” ee | suspect not. Mr. Goldsmith. Basically it ‘would be up to ‘the’ person” @ i, 13 | receiving the cable to bring it to the attention of the ‘head™ further up? > a : the ‘division. who would’ then make. the decision to send fe. Mrs. Manell. Yes. There might be some interim discus- V7 | sion about it. The.case officer would not go to. the head of “1 the division. “He would go to the section ‘thief and from’ ther 19 | it would go up. It is just that GS-95 doii't ‘talk to 7s. a . 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. ~ Turning now, specifically to the area of. ; a | 7 Lee Harvy Oswald, do you know whether “the “Tarasoffs or dnycne an = 22 | else at the. Mexico City station ever attempted to do a Voice” Co an identification of Oswald's voice? - | | ca Mrs. Manell. 1 don't know. as Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, listening to a tape of | eo1oss ' TOP SECRET” HW 50955 DBocld:32277219 Page 50
“the. conversation’ eon deciing snetner oe ast the voice 0 on the “tape was: Oswaidts? a - | - Mrs. Manéll. “You'mean, because théy had something to” “| compare it. with? fs | | | | | Mr. ‘Goldsinith.: You, “hight he have | something to compare | vit with, you: might, not. Mrs. Maneli. | rE ‘aon’ ie see Show. they, could.” : , ‘Goldsmith: , “For ‘exaiple, you might have one” e “tape. a ‘sie’ had. Oswala' Ss “voice on Vv you gould obtain that oe “recording and you could ates Mrs. ‘Manel. ‘That. is what I sayy 7 if you 2 are compring fe Pot “a2. it vie something else. ; od eo. 3 Mr. Goldsmith. “Do. you know af any type of v voice mp | | a son was ever made? ee eo . Mrs. Mane1l. Sr don't know. ol Mr. Goldsmith. If it~ had been done would ince + if , Mrs.. Manell. Maybe not. T was, “not there. full time as. ‘you. recall, “t don' t- know: cs Goldsmith. iE: would Like’ to refer your, attention nOH = 7 to. CIA document number 208. which is. “cable number 7025 ‘and To Fa would ike to. ask: you to ead paragraph number 4. ’ . ~ Mrs. Manell. That: is. 2. ~_e - 2 or) ‘ - . exes smnssarnr emer ann nina nwo neg ei tm eae ns nn re en ct i tennis refers to Boris. aécording “to. that. Ate esuggest' ‘that! ae swoice - el af Sat ohaall comparison was made. ' 001088. mo | i | | ee oe | ‘Goldsnith. rt says” Ww. ne | Feinglass. I "think it a] | | | i t Hv 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page si to
i | Mrs. Manell If he says so, it was a | 2 ; Mr. Goldsmith. But you don’ t have personal Knowledge | 3 of that? a © . 4 Mrs. Manell. No. You could. ask my “husband about that. - 3 I am sure he knows. | 6 Mr. Goldsmith. Before we move. on, W. Jd.. ‘Feinglass| woul 7 be a pseudonym for poris? 7 ac | 8 . - Mrs. Manell. oa presume it was. | 9 Mr. Goldsmith... W. J. Feinglass. would’ be a: peeuonmm? | 10 Mrs. Manell. That is right. | ae) Mr. Goldsmith. Pseudonyns. are routinely used by the | Agency? | | Mrs. Manell. ‘Yes. 7 Mr. Goldsmith. What would be the purpose of using the ~ pseudonums? a Ze) Mrs.-Manell. To conceal their real identity in traffic. - Goldsmith. So if this cable were -- 1 sedan eet nesieee memes tment maps cemestittntett rse Mrs.-Manell. -- weredintercepted ==" r. Goldsmith. _— ‘no one would know: who W. J. Feinglasd refers to? =) 41 Mrs. Manell.: Yes... Ss ee a e “ 22 | Mr. Goldsmith. Does the Agency have a practice of’ Se 33 having its employees; specifically case officers, use Opera-"" 24 te’ ; . | tional aliases? ™ nef — a Co re of “ Mrs. Manell. I wouldntvsayg,so, no... It is done in t oe _— : TOP SECRET a  ghh087 HWY 50955 DBocld: 32277219 Page 52
TOPSECRET = specific instances. Mr. Goldsmith. If a case officer has a contact with an a3 agent would he use his own name or would he use his pseudonym Mrs. Manell. He would never use a’ pseudonym.. This was strictly for cable traffic. He would fiot use that at all. That was for cable and dispatch traffic only within the Agenc cen) CO) Pa ee ren ere meas sn earner nett ton erences gens a ses OPT tics ‘nt i AP rt tri rn en en tee a Mr. Goldsmith. Would he use his own name then? paseanpennameectane rem aigarne fuente OTRAS DOD tte vee eT TTT SR a a TT re 8 Mrs. Manell.. He would use an operational alias in that| 9 case. | ‘| 10 Mr. Goldsmith. Would an operational alias be listed n anywhere at the Agency? — a mo ! 12 Mrs. Manell. Yes. It would be“listéd in the contact @ 13 reports. which would be made routinely and would be well docu- 14 mented. 1S Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the Agency has any © | central files indicating which operational aliases were being | wv used by its officers? "| Mrs. Manell.- Well, they could éheck: back to the statio 19 | I don't know. I would think that if they got the contract | 20 | reports, at one point I know earlier wé did not always send *) a contact reports when I was at other places. But I think that'| “4 ay for quite sometime in this period, contact“teports were | e *3 : required to be forwarded on a monthly oF tritmontbiyehasds. 24 | | Mr .Goldsmith. You don't know whether they maintained | ae f any kind of centralized file? : 601088 |. | HW 50955 DBocld: 32277219 Page 53 TOP SECRET *
| 4 ' | Mrs.GMan@hi. Tt would be récorded, it. would always | on ; “ 2 “be recorded in. some. fashion. or form either inva contact. xepor | 3 -- 1 don't know that there was a file ds such maintained in’ [= . 4 the Embassy listing the aliases. “But ‘it could be carded. - 5 most probably. and then retrievable. 6 Oo Mr. Goldsmith. Getting gack to ‘our friend Mr. Oswald; ° 7. when was he first drawn to your attention?’ ~~” : 78. Mrs. Manell. Through the bilatetal transcriptions. | a Mr. Goldemith.. So, you read a ttansceipt involving "1 10 ! Oswald? | | . | "| Mrs. Manell. ‘Yes. a oo ; Se | 12 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember what that ‘transcript: | & 13 | said? We will give you a chance to look at ‘the transcript: oo ~ | 14 | in a moment. Do you remember offhand whatthe substance of | 18 ! it was? / | | | 16 | . Mrs. Manell. I know he was in touch with the Soviet | vf Embassy by telephone and he was asking about’a letter,”a visa, 18 as I recall. a Mr. Goldsmith.” Was the Oswald contact with the ~~ 20 | Soviet Embassy considered to be unusual? | | Mrs. Manell. No. 22 Mr. Goldsmith. Why not? Mrs. Manell.. Well, there were cases of other Americans 24 who contacted the Embassy for various reasons: We were only 3 cad =. > “3 -obliged to report the contact of any American with the Soviet HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 54 - TOP SECRET © ,
TOP SECRET =i ses: out Babasay . r. Goldsmith. So in Oswald's case it was. just a ‘routine _coritact by an American as’ fax as 25 you. were concerned? Mrs. Manell. “¥ésen ! | : Mr. Goldsmith... wa TE. that, ‘is the’ case, ; then why: was the. - ease. sent consernitng oswatae | | * Mrs. Manell. ‘That: ‘is why t asked you that earlier, ‘because in the case of Americans we were required to send it. . . . . ry oi = \ or: re a eo a S 9 ” cable and not by dispatch. | 4 “| i | r. Goldsmith. ° Was. that a written regulation? Fas ' was an American? I. 10. | an ; 4 oo ia | ' Mrs. Manell.. I don! t “know if it was ‘written but it was a understood at our station that any Americans: ‘who- were in touc eG 7 13 |. with. the Soviet Embassy that that fact Rad to bev known to Ad | headquarters by cable. It was always: sent’ that way, whether” “AS | we considered it very unimportant or routine or not. So \ 16 | there must have been a regulation but I am not aware of it. | : oe . v4 | ‘Mr. Goldsmith. .I.guess then if we were to review the '- | a a = | "| Mexico City station cable traffice to ‘CiAgheadquarters we en 9 | would find a lot of cables reporting contact’ by Americans? a 20°}, Mrs. Manell. You would find others, yes. “| . : C . —_ | Mr. Goldsmith. Each case the ‘person ‘identified hinestet|. . . i ue oe ne: e ran _ 22 | or you had established identification? . SO | re me Mrs. Manell. Yes. i. can Mr. Goldsmith. In Oswald's casep how did: you know -he 4 | a { ; | a ge tg cctacsoarris be TOP SECRET HW 50955 Bocld:32277219 Page 55°
22 24 HW 430955 Docld: 32277219 Page 56 , TOP SECRET i “Please take a look at this. “b tex -- I don't recall whether it was in Spanish or Russian or what. - I don't recall. As I recall,. I saw it in English. Mr. Goldsmith. Let us take a:look at that transcript — now.. I would like to refer you to CIA document number 13. Mrs. Manell. It was in Russian. (°° Mr-.. Goldsmith. You are looking at an’ English transla- ~ tion of a Russian conversation? | Mrs. Manell.. Yes, that is right. - Mr. Goldsmith. What is: thé. date of the transcript? Mrs. Manell. 1 October 1963. | Mr. Goldsmith. That means that ‘the converstation was had on 1 October 1963? - | Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. It took place according to ‘the tran- script sometime after 9:55 in the morning, is that correct? Mrs.'Manell. That is right. . Mr. Goldsmith. In that transcript the person talking — identifies himself as Lee Oswald, is that correct? Mrs. Manell. Yes. transcript that prompted the cable to..be sent to CIA head- quarters? Mrs. Manel... I presume it was.0' °° ¢e.  gadagd | Mrs. Manell. I’ guess the person listening. to the tape - “Mr. Goldsmith. Based upon that transcript, is this the
{ _ i] ded dn “ * Ee °3 HY a in wad 22 24 , Sas oe Mr. Goldsmith.. the transcripts. ‘Mrs. Mr. Goldsmith. Manell.. TOP SECRET 54 I am sure this must be it, yes.. What indications if any are there on this transcript that Oswald was an American?’ Mrs. He could tell from that probably what ‘nationality the person Manell..: was and the name Lee Oswald sounds American. It is not a_ Mexican name certainly. He says “and spoke in broken Ussian!.- If it were a Spanish person speaking broke Russian or English person’ speaking broken Russians the transcribers would know. accents are different. Mr. Goldsmith. person speaking broken Russian. Mrs. Mr. Mrs. Mr. Manell: Goldsmith. Manell. Goldsmith. No. ~~ speaking in broken’ Russian,. right. on the bottom of the page. Mrs... Mr .. . Mrs. Embassy. This I presume is the telephone. oo 4 50955 Daocld: 32277219 Page 457 Manell.. Yes. Goldsmith. What is that? Manell. TOP SECRET I notice that there is some writing The transcriber does not indicate _ It indicates whoever was talking was ~~ It means that this’ came from the Russian’ This is theddate. 604092 i | We will give you atchance to. look at al Well, he says he speaks in broken Russian zt te 7 - whether it is an American speaking broke. Russian or a Spanish |
22 @ ta 83 24 3¢ | conus rae we ~=—SC(C OP SECRET as HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 58 _ . an _wheresthat occurred.: ‘TOP SECRET ==: These are -- I am not: sure whether that would be. the lines Mr. Goldsmith. on the tape? Mrs. Manell. Yes. I don't know. re. Goldsmith. The last line would be the time? Mrs.. Manell. Is that it? | so MreséGoldsmith. 0921 to 1320. I hoticé there is no why that would be the case?. one. I worked from the copy. It would have to be. Mr. Goldsmith. In part it would “seem this is the’ ~ original because it: has the handwriting ‘on ‘the bottom of: the page.. | Mrs. Manell. Yes. r. Goldsmith. Whose handwriting is that? Can you tell? | Mrs. Manell. I don't. know... indications on the. transcript? htis was the original of the transcript. and ‘that this would be. what would be in the files, the chronological files that were kept. QUi058 routing indication on this transcript.’. Is-there any reason © Mrs..Manell. I am wondering if this was the original Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why there are no routing | mo Mrs. Manell. I have to say this must be: ‘the reason, thal r.. Goldsmith. The routing indications would normally
22 24 » octacsecrvos een ~~ zWOP SECRET: HW 50955 DocId: 32277219 ‘Page 59 a, atin - -whose responsibility it. was. As I recall, Iwas told to writ go on one of the copies? Mrs. Manell. Yes. ‘Mr. Goldsmith. So, the original would’ Hot typically be marked up at ail? ~ a fs Oe cigs OE | Mrs. Manell. ‘That would be my giess' from seeiag. this, yes. You see,tit says page 1, copy number: 1, so that must _ be what it is. You see, the kind that went through the | station that were routed around would ‘Have ‘various people's” ‘names and filed so and so at the bottom. — Mr... Goldsmith. What, you are feférring to here as’ the” House Select Committee on. Assassinations, ‘that was. put: on -: later.. What action did you take after” seéing this transcript? Mrs. Manell.- I think‘I was the third or. beyond person - ‘who saw it. It was broguht to my. attention by the Chief, the Head of the Soviet. Section; and by Ann* Goodpasture who was do the memorandum. I think there was a bit of discussion abo -it up. Mr. Goldsmith. Why was there discussion about whose responsibility it was. 2 fils} leas Mrs.: Manell. I think because when it was an American .. itesorttofffébhb between whether we shoifld have to do it, | | whether it was our responsibility. to sénd this up because it , | | | discussing this and who was going. to notify. headquarters oa | t | | | ! | | { bottom, it says HSCA in caps. That réfers to this Committee ; | t
HY 0955 Kh ad 22 33 24 : i : ete tener enna tn ere ne te me en en pth tt A Tt i eo ae a RS ae. Bocld: 32277219 Page 60 secrete parecer non TN Se I tt sa Taare aerate aaa Of: the Cuban section but: r. am not ‘gure ‘just what! timing there: TOP. SECRET ss | | el had to ‘be accompanied by a memo. and it took time, or whether | it was Ann's responsibility. It was just a little, not. argu-| ment, but a discussion about, well, "You do it, 1 don't want ™ to do it,. you handle it", and I had to’ do it. | Mr... Goldsmith. This would have been secompsiied » a memo? | | Mrs. Manell. Yes. This type ‘of? thing, the cable would be written and at the same time the internal memo, would: be given to the Ambassador and whoever else ‘should be notified about this. | In this’ ase the legal attache at the “Embassy. follow? Mrs. Manell. No, I don't think SO. “There was enough’ - to Make this -« that he was an American == it was enough to 7 | | | | Mr. Goldsmith. Would a dispatch with more information. | : | make it a matter of record that he as an ‘Américan was” “ins | touch with: the Sovbét. Embassy and to give. ‘the gist of the | conversation. Mr. Goldsmith. ‘pid pave Phillips have anything to do) with this cable, with this transcript at that time, in “Octobe (1963? | | Mrs. Manel. I thought at that time that he had; that” he was head of pfopaganda,, ‘covert’ action as they called it, propaganda type. responsibility. I know later he became head was there. I thought at this. time he’ was. head of the Covert oO ‘TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET = is i | Action.. \ nO Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember ever discussing the Ces) cable with hime? a Mrs. Manell. I did not. 5 Mr. Goldsmith. What action dia you take after seeing 6 this transcript? | | ? Mrs. Manell. I wrote the cables for headquarters and af 8 the same time I attached the cable, I wrote the meo to be | 9 distributedéto the Embassy and sent them both forward to: | 10°) Mr. Scott. That is the way we had to do it. You could noe | ou send the cable first and memo later. They had to go out | | attached. So he saw that there was a complete package. : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. I recall from the interview that we had _ aR Mrs. Manell. I. would think so.' It would not have to “OU1G96 Id that you basically reviewed transcripts in’a chronological | 13 order, is that right? ne moe | 16 ‘Mrs. Manell. Yes. | V7 Mr. Goldsmith. So you reviewed the transcript from the 13 20th, the conversation that took place on’ the 20th before © a 19 you reviewed transcripts of conversations”’that took place ‘onthe 20 | 21st? | | ; 21 Mrs. Manell. I would say so. | . | 4 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. Here we have a conversation that took | ® 3 | place on 1 October 1963 but. presumably by then you have soon | 24 | transcripts from September 1963?. “| a5 1 | oO | . TOP SECRET oe an: HY 50955 DBocld: 32277219 Page 61
22 24 ry n HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 62 TOP SECRET or whatever. I ‘might have looked into the Soviet contact “file. be but I would say so, yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Based on the routine procedure you . - followed? Mrs. Manell. Yes. ._ a ae Mr. Goldsmith... Now,’ prior to sending the cable did you! check earlier ‘transcripts’ to see if Oswald's name had come °° ‘up earlier? Mrs. Manell. I don't think we. did that. I have a very good memory and I have.a trained memory and ‘I would remember: if his name had come up previously and itvhad not. However , I did do a check of our files, a thorough ¢heck of the fidés. I also inquired of the Chief of Registry about whether he had seen this name recently, whether he was ‘making up a P file Mr. Goldsmith. You said you did“a’ thorough check ‘of’ ° your files. What would you be looking for? Mrs. Manell. I: would. be looking at the card index to see if we had a card on him which would indicate what files’ you could find the information in. | Mr.,Goldsmith: ,P file or subject file? Mrs. Manell. P file or subject file; yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you link Oswald’ to any -~ erecta ne nL A NEE SE EE A EY ERY SE = RR ARTE Ee NENA REET Rete tee EAE tar PASSED Shennan ane A AE AAD A © OA Mrs.-Manell. ‘And,.I Looked at unfiled stuff too, as I, recall. 2M, . &
| 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did" you ‘link Oswald to any’ earlier | contact to either the Soviet or Cuban Embassy or Consulate? Mrs. Manelt. No. “There was nothing to indicate that when’ I did’ ‘inake my check. 2k aia. a thorough chéck as” I always aia. There was nothing ve indicate, ‘that. I _ looked in the unfiled pile of things. to be filed which. could be: quite” considerable since Mr.. “Scott dia ‘keep alhostt every scrap of = ey | a: ee cee = ta a) n> } . ee a 4 paper that went through the station and there was” nothing on | 9 | nin at that time. | | 10 | Mr. Goldsmith. — Did you check the photo préduction | WV : materials?. 7 - mo oe a | 12 - Mrs. Manell. No. , e . 13 | - Mr. Goldsmith. This was an operational. cable was it o oe 14} not? | as | Mrs. Manel. Yes. 4 6 | Mr. Goldsmith. r. thought earlier you said that sé WV I ‘Mrs. Manel. (IT did not look at those files, no. When 13 we sent cables, t know ‘that we said that wé did look at a” 19 photograph but I did not get that photograph out. Ann | got | the. photograph.. I. told: you before ‘that wé quest did not riffl Py | through those photographic files. They were very sensitive.” i a 2] Mr. Goldsmith. You also said before,’ hhowevér, as I 4 | 33 | recall, that | as a. matter of procedure with: regard to opera: a | tional cables you would check transcripts. as fj rs. Manell. Yes. But since I’ Was reviewing these on‘a sacsaerinio ~ TOP SECRET. HW 50955 Dood: 32277219 Page 63 — ;
22 24 \ soe sca cuce | VOP SECRET | | “constant basis and since my memory was excellent then, I had _ TOP SECRET a oe 61 a trained memory for dredging up information about people, ‘I would have remembered if his “name had come Up. “Mr. Goldsmith.’ What about if his name had not! come “up but if there had been. a contact by somieone else, a contact by someone with either the Cuban or Soviet Embassy in which . e person was seeking a visa? | ) “| Mrs. Manell. I. would not see thé Cuban | transcript. a However, Mr. Scott saw all transcripts." I don't ‘know how | many Annie saw. I don't know what shé: had . ‘to do with the 7 Cuban. transcript. But Mr. Scott definitely and I presume. ~ other people in reading them would have seen the relationship I did not see it because I did not read their transcript. | As I say; I did a thorough: check of thé files and there’ was no indication of any other information on” Oswald at that time including infuled material. . Goldsmith. Let us take a look: at that cable now. I would like to refer you now to CIA 178. 2 believe this is a cable dated 8 October 1963. Is that correct? Mrs. Manell. Yes. - Mr. Goldsmith. Is. this the cable that you sent? Mr. Goldsmith. “Now,” reading | ‘the ‘first paragraph of this cable it does appear ‘that: the* ‘transcript ‘you had in mind was | | | | 7 Mrs. Manell. Yes, that is the. ‘cable’ rT sent. ee | aa i this LnOctober transcript which is CIA number 13, is that | | | | Bn 10 a8
TOP SECRET gs | 7 right? 2 . Mrs. Manell. Right. This first section would have bee 3 done on the basis of the transcript. The.second section woul a have been 6ffered to me by my husband and Annie. They would 5 || have worked on that. an | 6 Mr. Goddsmith.. Now, turning from thé cable back to thé 7 transcript here it says in brackets, gomnerit by the trans- 8 lator, the same who phoned a day or so“agoand spoke in bona 9 Russian. “| 10 ‘Mrs. Manell. Right.. a Mr. Goldsmith. Despite this indication here I believe: ay ee H ii | i | your testimony is that you did not go back to check the a . a . ay 13 | transcript because by virtue of your mémory you knew that — | | ; Wl Oswald's name had not come up in any earlier conversation, Is | is that correct? me SS | | : 16 | Mrs. Manell. Yes. 1 Mr. Goldsmith. Turning to the second paragraph of the | aa cable it says “have photos of a male whosappears to be an 7 i9 | American entering SOVEMB 1216 hours, léaving 1222 on 1 i: | 20 | October. Apparent age 35, athletic build, circa feet, | | receding ahirline,..balding top, wore Khakis and sport shirt.” | - ae a h 30 22 | Can you explain how that photograph was obtained and © | aa | , , Ne 3 why reference to it was made in the cable? > ce mo ; oad an Mrs. Manell. It was dredged up from the files by Ann “| . 1 | Uf 7° i Goodpasture. | I L488 | YY Hodd0e a | i Z 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 65 TOP SECRET
Mrs.Goldsmith. Not by you? - anyone else at the station, to go’ indiscriminately in those ; _ files. They were very sensitive. She and the. head of the Soviet Section discussed this and gaveme these particulars : | Mrs. Manell. No. I did not have access, neither did 6 |. to- include in the cable. She was very’ good at' figuring out ? “height because she would compare them with other things. She 8 | knew the specific heights of people and: ste had really 4 op 2 developed quite an ability: to a6’ that; so I relied on here’ | 10 | “information and put that in the cable. | " Mr. Goldsmith. Did Ann think that that ee 12 | Oswald? | | , Qo OR | Mrs. Manell. We say “appears to be". “What we ate et (oo Hg | trying to do was just correlate anything that we had. “1s! Me. Goldsmith. That does not quite answer the question| | | Dn 16 | Did Ann think that the photo -- A I. Mrs. Manell. I don't know what she thought. "| Mr. Goldsmith. Dia you talk to ‘here about the photo= 19 graph? | | . a» Mrs. Manell. No. 2 a ~ Mr. Goldsmith. ’She gave’ you a photo ‘and she gave- you 7 (2) the information contained in paragraph 2?— Mrs. Manell. I-don't know whether she gave it to. me. 24 or know she discussed it with my, husband. “Which one gave it © oo oO : ‘, - 7 . 3 ws oe fa] =. to me I don't know... a a © pes | HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 66 ” TOP SECRET |
7 - “Vd 13 25 | an | | ‘| _ tion and you sent. it to. Washington and at least with regard _ Embassy ,. according to the cable, was on bk#October, or at leas he spoke to the Embassy on 1 October. Why did it take one ‘IT had it. Tf don't know this was the. case. I can only assume ‘now. Saturday and Sunday, we did not work Saturday and t aay ye ake eg Mr. Goldsmith. - ‘Basically you were given this informa- tion and ~~ - Mrs. Manell. ‘Yes, because I did not know anything” about any of this. Mr. Goldsmith. You were basically given this informasicd to the information contained in paragraph. 2 you did noe. -” | analytical work, you.were just given that information? | | Mrs. Manell. That.is right. | , Mr. Goldsmith. - Now, Oswald's contract’ with the Soviet . week for the cable to go out to headquarters? Mrs.. Manell. What day was 1 October and what day was” 8 October? | - | Mr. Goldsmith.. 1 October was a ‘Tuesday. Mrs. Manell. Wednesday, Thursday, by Friday probably Sunday unless we. were working on something special that we — wanted to come in. Probably did not consider it that. important - ‘It was: one American. . A numberof others had been . hoe, at the Soviet. Embassy. throughout thee summer. “I just didn't: think it was that important. Moat Gk hea (HOLT. | HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 67
| 7 \ oe on a in vs a 24 HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 68 a Mr. Goldsmith. When did Ann give you the photograph or the information? Mrs. Manell.. I. don't know. Presumably I got it the da - I‘wrote the cable. She probably came in ~~ it was really a .Matter of here is another one of thesé things again and we were having a little gabble about. who showld sent it up” because it was a pain to do these. I “probably, I think I handled it as soon as I got itebut I think there was a discussion, as I say maybe a halfa day; “about who was going *- to do it. It was doné because it was required but it was ~ considered unimportant. Mr. Goldsmith. tn his book "Night Watch", Dave © Phillips -- | oe | Mrs. Manell.. I have not read his book. Mr. Goldsmith: Well, you should read‘it. You are Mrs. Manell.. Really? Mr. Goldsmith. Not by name but mention is made of you. The gist of it was that the cable that linked the photo to Oswald was sent out because you had réad the transcript, you had in front of you the photograph of ‘this. man, and Mr. Phillips' words were "you put one and one together and did not really get two." - : Bea “Mrs. Manell. That may be. We gay that right in here. Mr. Goldsmith. I know, but what he’ said is that you - rv | | | | mentioned in the book. = a | ; - | | | | | | | | | | | | | ee
22 24 HW 30955 Docld: 32277219 Page 69 TOP SECRET cnet enre pte emcee sancrmenieptteenpirctarn smc stn ter eee tenn ee ree ee, seen nem 4 fn le tt na A Sn la Ae tee Semen eee RTC tet eA Sennen nnn nn 8. actually had the photo. ‘wasn't one who sat down and said I had nothing to do with ‘photograph when I was writing this second paragraph. Ask SS ae SS Serene ec —— 2 SS a a crema NTN TOP SECRET — $6 Mrs. Manell. Well, I am not saying that the photo was not in our shop but I don't remember specifically looking at the photo. It could have been there. I don't know. I the hours or deciding the date or saying he looks 35 and has an athletic build. I did not say any of that. I probably saw the photograph at sometime but I did not see the Ann Goodpasture and my husband about that. Mr. Goldsmith. Anyway, Mr. Phillips is incorrect when he attributes any analytical work to you? Mrs. Manell. No, I wouldn't say so. The work I did was all analytical. | Mr. Goldsmith. Only with regard to this particular cable? Mrs. Manell. You mean having to do with photographs? Mr. Goldsmith. With this particular cable. Mrs. Manell. Having to do with the second paragraph of this cable about the physical description of the person and when he entered and left, I had nothing to do with that. Mr. Goldsmith. Have you read pages 140 and 141 of "Might Watch"? ‘Mrs. Manell. No. I just looked at this part up here. Mr. Goldsmith. You read page 141? BOLLE
| Mrs. Manell. Yes. Hedoes not have the facts straight. on, . 2 “T presume he ‘has not seen this file. He is doing: it from 3 | memory. I don't get excited about this at all. Mr. Goldsmith. _ Do you agree or disagree with his versio of the facts? } | ; Mes. Manell.. I don't agree with it. tan, ee -- if “you did not have. this cable in front of you -r we are getting, down to the phonetics’ and everything else.- No, he doesn't’ present the facts as they occurred there. He is doing it fro “memory ‘obviously. Mr. Goldsmith. It says here, "Craig's wife," referring . to you, “incorrectly surmised that contact was made by anothe person, photographed as an individual of interest because, he shad frequented the Soviet Embassy. She was describing the. the mysterious stranger and not, as found later, the person - : oo “OO iyo ok 16 making the ‘contact. She put one (Oswald seeking visa-from’ - v7 | the Soviet) and one. (an unknown visit or to the Russian 13 | Embassy). together and come.up with an incorrect two.. .The 19 | soeunpeion that the ‘two men' were the same.’ : “| Mrs. Manell. We never gaid they were the same. Tt says af = so right here. The first Paragraph describes this person's : - 29 i contact with the Embassy. < the second section merely says, S ee) a "have photos of a male. appears to be American", ‘and describe | | him. We are not saying that this person is the person in the “ym Food | first paragraph at all. gods. “ Soe Sy mete: ce ce nee HW 50955 DBaoclda: 32277213 Page 70° TOP SECRET
7 = ay \ ns) a an”: co sa or 2 24 . 2 i a HY) 50955 Bocld: 32277219 Page fi i | | | | | | | - to this kind of thing it is not going to be accurate — | | | | | | | : | | Mr.-Goldsmith. Fine. I understand. that point. “IE think te the cable speaks for itself as you indicated. The second. point Mr. Phillips made, however, was that | you had done the analytical work here, you ‘had put the tran+ script together with the photograph. In fact., the photograph |.« ‘was given to you. - Mrs. Manell.. That is right. The photograph was reviewed ~~ I don't think, I don't ‘see anything to ‘be upset about this | really.. Mr. Goldsmith. There may not be antying to be upset about but it is not accurate, is it? Mrs. Manell. ‘Well, it makes good reading. Mr. Goldsmith. Is it accurate?) Mrs. Manell. None of it is. accurate because there is no, such person as’ Craig or this or that. When you get down ‘Mr. Goldsmith. . There i's not any such person as Craig but we know Craig refers to your husband, Mrs. Manell, and "his: wife”. refers: to you. Is his story accurate or inaccu- a 1 Y . rate? Mrs. Manell. it is inaccurate, Mr. Goldsmith. why is, it inaccurate? Mrs. Manell. Because we never said one and one.makes two. . We never said the subject of the cable was ‘the same as. | the person described in the second paragraph of the cable. (,  BAALAR,
1 | We said maybe. That is all we said. KR Mr. Goldsmith. I undestand that. .He also said that you tad were the person responsible for putting the two together. Mrs. Manell. In his’mind. Th no-:oneuelse!s*.:mind=were _ ke 5 they ever put together. 6 “Mr. Goldsmith. So that aspect ‘of it is not correct, 7 _you were not responsible gor analytical work regarding the 8 transcripts and the. photographs, is that correct? : oy Mrs. Manell. I wrote the first paragraph and. T did not - 10 | veite the second paragraph. The information -in the second i © Paragraph was given to me because I did not have access to oan the photographs. & _ 13 ; Mr. Goldsmith. Let me rephrase the question, bid you : or | in a any way Tink | the photograph to Oswald based upon analysis - rs | which you yourself ‘had done?’ 16 | Mrs. Manell. “t never did analytical work as concerned 7 the photographs, never. 13 | Mr. Goldsmyeh. Dhis particular photograph? of rs..Manell.— This photograph | or any other + photograph 20 | ic aotanities ‘I would. ‘Like’ to: refer your attention. ‘now. zi}. to CIA number 14 and 15. will you please read that? - 2) Mrs. Manell. What is thé date ‘of-this? The 28th? 8B | "3 : Mr. Goldsmith. The date’ is September 28, 1963. ou | Mrs..Manell. I did not see this at. the time I wrote the 2 an Sore oe ‘cable. That. is definite because I would have. included this | I H¥ 50955 Docld:32377219 Page 72
TOP SECRET : | j | in it. , Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date on the transcript? \ no ad Mrs. Manell. The date on the transcript is 28 September Mr. Goldsmith. You are indicating that you did not see da this transcript beforehand? Is that correct? ’ ‘ t ‘15 years. I know I sent here in this cable that we are 5 6 Mrs. Manell. Wait a minute. Is this our stuff? Is 7 this the Cuban stuff? 8 Mr. Goldsmith. Whic is it, yours or the Cuban? We need | an answer for the record. 10 | Mrs. Manell. I know you do but I am trying to see. I "| am looking at this. This is the basis that I wrote the cable | Therefore I could not have seen this or I would have put more & 13 | ‘information in. Maybe I decided it was not that vital anyway 4 oe 14 IT am not clear on it at this minute. I would say I must cove 1s | seenthis: after I wrote the cable and then I sent it as I 7 16 | indicatea here over to Shaw who was responsible for the Cuban | | section of the station because I did not indicate in the cal 1a | _any connection with the Cuban Embassy. | i .| Mr. Goldsmith. Let us take it step by step and slowly. : 20 | First of all, that is the conversation that was received off | | the Lienvoy type operation, that is the liaison tap operation] a rs 22 | is that correct? - f @ 3 : urs. Manell. Wait a minute. Let me go back and let me | 24 | think this thing over. 1 have not seen these files for 14 | nef | \ | GHLiGk TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 73
‘TOP SECRET = =——s ts a | discussing is the information that I had then. a ey i _ Mr. Goldsmith. “Mrs. Manell, we will: getnto that. -question 3. later on. “Let. us do ‘this step by step. . 4 The first guestion I have is.whether this is Lienvoy type}: 7 § operation? | 6 | Mrs. Manell. Yes. I thought you were trying to ask me 7 || how come ~~ | 8 Mr. Goldsmith. You are anticipating me. I may. well ask ' | it but I have something to ask before then. . | e| i | 190 Mr. :Goldsmith.. You have to. remember that I haven't | an looked at these files in 15 years and I don't want,.to be 12 tricked into anything either. I want to be very / forthright a 13 | and I’want to try to remember to the, best of my / ability, but | oo 14 | I could be wrong. That is all I want to say. i: = -4§ | » Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that. You just indicated | | ; . 16 | that you have not seen these files in 15 years. It is true, - A7 bnowever, is: it not, that “you reyiewed these files and the © | ; . Cet, . . | 13 | specific transcript with Dan Hardway and Betsy Wolf and myself 19] and your husband. | 20 | “Mrs. Manell. At the: time. YOU, showed me because you ee 7 Lod ; . . . , : . { oe a specific about showing me specific pieces of paper in the file, ' | Lo ; | cos 22 : I never had access to look at the file. You pointed out ~| Nee “3 j contain things.to me. This cable, for example, q remember “| | 24 — i 25 | Mr. Goldsmith. ‘I believe at that time we " showed you all | t ye | { re | - = : - | oe - ott AY HW 50955 visiavaspenose. TOP SECRET Page 74
| the ‘transcripts. Thére are’ four. or five’ transcripts and I ww ‘ \ BOD Mrs. Manell. T don't remember if I saw all of them. If. you say I did -- Iam trying to put: this back in chronologica aa. in order to see if this first paragraph here .was complete or a. incomplete. . That is what I am trying to see. , Mr. Goldsmith. ‘There | fare routing indications on CIA ao | believe we showed. you all of.them at that time. - _ oo he |. document. nuniber 14, is that correct, opposite Goodpasture , a Shaw2.3 > J Mrs. Manell. That,is my handwriting. an | | Mr. Goldsmith, Above ‘that? | Mrs. Manell. -That is my handwriting; Scott,. Goodpasture, Mr. Goldsmith. ‘When would you put: those routing on there? no , a os Ss i: 7 | ang Shaw... | oe a Oe oe | / Mrs. Manell. I am not sure. I don't know what date I : “As soon as‘I had.seen it and did whatever I had to do with it, 0 \ got these. I would have put them on as soon’ as I saw it. 19 then T sent. it onward to Scott, Goodpasture and. Shaw and.to (20 || file. . 21 Mr. Goldsmith. First of all, T would like to say I am Se 22] snot attempting to ‘trick you here: ‘Earlier ‘you said that ee “ according ‘to routine procedure you would receive the tran- > 24 | script in chronological order? | , —_ ‘28 i Mrs. Manell.: Yes: 93 (4 0" fe ee HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 75 SECRET - .
ah ees benzene “mordtore, if routine. ‘procedure were | 4 “| | | \ ne, vor “followed in this case. the transcript dated 28 Septémber you would: have’ seen before: the ‘transcript dated. L. October. “es. Manell. ‘T would ‘Say in. general: that. would be. so, de Mr. Goldsmith. “Do “you know whethér'that- was the. case in» a ‘this pabticulay instance? co ‘ “Mrs. -Manell.. JF don't know. SOME. | ‘Goldgmith. Let me ‘put it: Chis way. If you. received an TO! this transcript. after the. October: 1st one. it. would: ‘seem to me" owe v that) you still. would have ‘received it prior to ‘October 8, the date thatthe cable was sent. to headquarters. Mrs .Manely.” You would think 80, yes, ‘that seem togical,| but I don' t. know why unless, I. thought that wasn t that impor-~ tO . ee ea earn e nannaRNR RFSRLIRN A SRgRS cS ST Sa TESA at 15 tant in the first place, that, 1 just wanted to get is name. 16 on the record. t am not: clear, whether I saw ‘this because os ““y. am generally quite thorough when - “T, do: ‘something. Mrs.; Manel. x Just ‘eave recall tnisy 1» mean the me » sequence of when T saw each: piece.” Tes ‘talks here about how ~ | “| Mr. ‘Goldsmith. I understand. ©‘: - | | he, went to’ the Cuban’ Embassy. ore don' t. mention that, in here. - oo | 7 a | ! . "5 2 ‘That: is “why, L think I: didn” t see. “it. L ce 3 Mr. Goldsmith. - Tf: you saw ous 3 after Octobek ‘3, the ‘date “I the cable was sent?” ee | | D (25 urs. meine I would not - t necessarily. se send a “cable Fol lowe ; : ede ~— Sc ee ag ae a rm ten a nance nin ens i. | | { TOP SECRET HW 40955 Docld: 32277219 Page To .
7 ‘TOP SECRET | a “5. 1 | intonation I know I didn't have this because I would have ‘all in? If I got this later I did not handle it. TI know I did not send any cable of that.. “Mx. Goldsmith. For the record, will you indicate what mg oe .; ; ee bk eh a nF i 2 | cen more thorough in the first paragraph. Why not put it information is contained in that transcript that: is not y . a reece EEE eaes atte ee EEE nt nr ER tdsneeennfnsntrtebenabet ‘|, included in’ the cable? | Mrs. Manell. ' This indicates that ~~ wait a minute, there 9 |. no’ name mentioned here; is that ‘right? _ Mr. Goldsmith. Right. That is 4 good point. ‘Does: this - transcript, dated 28 September, refer to the person Speaking | in broken Russian by name? — RS e 7 13 “Mrs. Manell.. No. u Mr. Goldsmith. Is Oswald's name mentioned at all? IS Mrs. Manell. No. 16 ! ur. Goldsmith., Essentially it indicates a contact with 7 the Cuban Embassy,’ the fact that he had been at the Cuban. -Embassy? ny t | eee aor earn at Mrs. Manell. ves. Mr. Goldsmith.” That is essentially all, isn't that it? - Mrs. Manell. Yes. Wait a minute now. Don't we say some 221 shere there ---it ‘could be that I did see this first. 3 Mr. Goldsmith. By this you are referring to the tran-. . 24 RP ome script? 2 n Mrs. Manell. Yes. And there was no name mentioned. I TOP SECRET HW 50955 Doclda:322977219 Page 74
| | | am trying to.see when Boris said that it seems: as though, “ie | he tried to. link up the two. Let mé say this. 1 know, at , least ‘I am quite ‘sure, that there was a cable gent after this. first cable that I sent that showed that he was in touch ‘with the Cuban Embassy: I did not send the cable. Mr. Goldsmith.’ Let us “move on to some of these other transcripts. I would 1 like to refer your - attention now to. CIA number’ ‘17 and 18, which is a transcript dated 27 Septembe eo re. vs ws 6 aaa aN AE STE LT = = Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember seeing the transcript 1963, the time is 1605 hours | Will you please read that? 10 | There is a cransiation on the next page if you would like to. "| look at that, too. oo 2 | Mrs. Manel. T don't remember ever seeing this. | 1 | | | | | | | | 1d | before? _ is) Mrs. Manell. I don't remember seeing it but I could be 6 | wrong. a | 7 Mr. Goldsmith.,” whose Wandwriting is’on the lefthand_ 12 | side of the page? . a | | of: “Mr. Scott's. se Mr. Goldsmith. — To the best of your memory, prior to the 2] | ein that the cable of october 8 was sent you ‘did not see this oe .° 22 transcript dated 9/27/63? ® | = Mrs. Manell. I just don't ‘remember. Unless I skimmed 24 | over ‘it and I did not see, anything, because the real meat of the information is 1 October and this is 27 September and At | peaddd | HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 79 TOP SECRET
is unnamed. I may not have connected. them.: | didn't connect them.- I don't know. Mr. Goldsmith. Moving back to the transcript dated . ~ September 28, 1963, are you certain nevertheless that certainly before the assassination this transcript was linked oe) . I don't know whether I didn't see it or I’saw. it and to Oswald? “Mrs..Manell. This has to be the one that was sent, that. there was a follow-up cable that was sent that showed that : Oswald was in touch with the Cuban Embassy as well as the” | ! 4 | [fess Embassy. -I don't know if there is anything. else that:} i i you ‘don't have. I don't know if the cable was sent on the e 13 | basis of this specific piece of information here or not, I = ‘Td don't know. | 15 | Mr. Goldsmith. My question is’ this. The September 28 16 | transcript you clearly Saw at some time? | VW | Mrs. Mariell. ves. I wrote on. it. "| Mr. Goldsmith. My specific question, ‘forgetting about 19 I. whether another cable was sent té CIA headquarters, my 20 | specific question is whether this transcript was Linked to_ 2 | Oswald priox to the assassination? | ee 22 Mrs. Manell. What does the transcriber say’ about this @ - | 73 ‘voice? Does he Link it with a this transcript or a Similar. 24 | one nust “have been a basils forthe cable that was sent. | oS : a, 25 | linking -- “ou Sage: a eater. pa : Ie hegadn © ae. ae HW 50955 Bocld: 32277219 Page 30
Mr. Goldsmith. . I really don't want. you. to focus or be concerned now about. the other cablé that was. sent. My ques- ‘ tion is whether this transcript was linked to Oswald prior to the assassination, and I am referring now to the 28 ‘September 1963 transcript. Mrs. Manel. T can*t tell you. Is there anything here - that you see that “says that this person. speaking broken | Russian is the same as -- I don't see anything ‘about the Cuban Embassy. “I don't understand this. I must have seen. this after I sent this cable. E. did not send a subsequent ‘cable. a | | | | Mr. Goldsmith. You are certain one was sent? Laneaeeaaeaaeal Rett a aCe Sona TN A ET I SD AN Mrs. Manell. Yes. 14 | Mr. Goldsmith. . My question really still has not been “1§ | ‘answered. ‘prior to the assassination. was the transcript 16 | dated September -28, 1963) ‘linked to Oswala? > qe | ‘Mrs. Manell. ‘T don"t know, that: There was some informa-| 18 }- tion that was Linked because a cable was sent daying that y Oswald had not ‘only Appeared at’ thé Soviet Embassy but had’a 20 connection with the Cuban Embassy. That is all I know. va Mr. Goldsmith. “according to the Agency's records there a 2 was only this one cable dated October 8, 1863. a , “3 | | Mrs. Manell. I don't understand this . I know. that: there | 24 | was a link, I know that it was reported that there was a cable} - 25 i sent after this. It was a cable that was sent after this | | peas TOP SECRET HW 30955 Docld: 32277219 Page 31 | | | | | | to | i | i |
TOP SECRET 1 | that indicated that he was in touch with the Cubans as well mo 2 | as with Soviets. I did not send the cable. - | 3 Mr. Goldsmith. Based upon that, you are saying that ea 4 Oswald was linked to this transcript of September 28? 7 | 5 Mrs. Manell. This or some other transcript, I don't 6 ‘know. I mean this is not a complete run of the transcripts | ; for this period that we were covering.. You see, if you had | 8 that ~~ | : : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. You are correct, the transcripts that’ — | 10 | we have here are those chat the Agency has provided us and | | ay | said have been linked to Oswald. | : 7 Mrs. Manell. Then this must have been the one. If that e 13 : is the case, then I am sure this is the one if that is what | os if} they told you. | 1S Mr. Goldsmith. When you say this is the one? 16 Mrs. Manel. Because this is the one that refers to the: 13 tion that links Oswald to the Cuban Embassy, then this is “ 19 the piece of information. . 20 Mr. Goldsmith. They don't say that. They have given | va us all of the transcripts that they say are linked to Oswald. | . { | oye 22 Mrs. Manell.. I don't have any reason to think that therg @ %3 would be more except I can't pin down and say this was the 24 ! i ! | { i 17 Cuban Embassy. If they say that this is the piece of informa | i | | | specific one that was used as the basis for linking the two. :o) in That is all I am saying. goat TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 82 SN)
Mr. Goldsmith. Let us move on. to CIA numbers 19 and. 20. - Number 19 is the transcript dated September 27, 1963, the time-is 1626 hours. Would you please read that? “Mrs. Manell. I don't understand: this time’ sequence on this. at all beacuse I did not see all of this about a wife, “about four to ‘five months, about any of this. - It is a mystery “to me. I don't nderstand it. It is not that 1 don't undex-|. stand the transcript when I'am looking at it. I am saying I don't understand how these things, could ante-date my cable and not be put in the cable. That is what I am saying. r don't know when I saw’ these. I did see this because chat. is my writing ‘there. Mr. Goldsmith. What we have here is the situation under 1d which according to the standard operating procedure you os 4S would have reviewed everything in chronological order. We | have transcripts from Sépteitber 27 and 28, which you are now “saying you pérhaps did not receive until after October ist or after October ath when you sent’ thé ‘cable to headquarters, Mrs. Manell. Yes, because there would be no reason -~ why not show this? Why would I not’ want. to show it? It would add more information that I wanted to send about him 22 | nem 24 even though we thought he was an ‘unemportant : American. If he would in touch with the Cuban Embassy I would have said SO. : _ © 2 OE On da’. w Nn, i ne pees ee eet ee em arg ae ge engrn e er a e S Se al a a Mr. Goldsmith. If you sent the first cable to CIA —gotaie TOP SECRET WW 50955 Docld: 32277219 ‘Page 83
headquarters why would the responsibility for sending another ; cable be delegated to anybody else but you? | Mrs. Manell. Maybe T'wasn't there because I worked part time. Perhaps I wasn't there. I see here he gives her- “some action to take. | | / Min. Goldsmith.; Who wrote that? Mrs. Manell. That is Mr. Scott's writing. Mr. Goldsmith. He gave it ‘to whom? ~ Mrs... Manell. To Annie. That is. why I think the second cable was written. I cantt say for a certitude: that Annie wrote, it but I think she did. I know there was a cable that was sent that Linked him to the Cubans, to the Cuban Embassy . cnr NM RP aaa ee ne erm He is still unidentified. Mr. Goldsmith. It. says copy.to Oswald P file. This is’ Mrs. Manell. - I would. -think with the. cable, the first cable that I sent, and then 411 the information that had. to’ "| do with it would be put in that file, subséquent information. I say here "Soviet contacts." At that point there was ‘no P. file established for him. . This is where we put anyone in Sorcerer ronan ornate NSRaN SR OT TOI SR eS touch with the Soviet Embassy including Americans. 22 Mr. Goldsmith. Who wrote reference to P. files? Mrs. Manell. ‘This ‘is’ my writihg here.“ “I think that is 24) Herb's writing. - This is’ not either of our writings here. Iti a nr =. an rr . o ; See © . _ . : ‘ . 2 had meee commnenstssmmeewent ve mmm mae tenes mtr is.not Scott's writing,.it is not anybody's here. | | I | | on CIA number 19. When would that P file have been operied? | | | | | | | { | i | { HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 84
HW 450955 | | | 22 _~ . ~t 3 24 2 tn. =a. Docld: 32277219 Page 65 oo “y av. ‘an bm a i] S etenteeeseeeenstntesmemmenenmndienenessaeaaasttbasd - = file. TF also checked, I remember, the unfiled stuff because TOP SECRET = st: Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Here is the point, that the transcript ~ is, dated September 27, 1963. ‘It indicates that a copy is to go to Oswald's Pp files. urs. Manell. Yes, but I have "file Soviet contact", and| somsbody else put this in. I -didn't know that this was a P file, maybe I would have, 1 could have put it in both places. | | Mr. Goldsmith. When would this have gotten into his P file? | | Mrs. Manell. Immediately. As I.told you before, when : ’ : I went into Registry I did a thorough check.’ .I would have checked all P files. I would have, checked the Soviet contact i we sometimes got a. pile of that. I.found no reference to Oswald. Now, this of course is not definitely, Oswald at this time. It is about. an unknown person who talks. ‘about going to Russia, about his wife and all of that. Mr. Goldsmith. “Oswald is not mentioned by: name in any - of these others, is he? now he is not mentioned by name. Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, do you recall the interview that you had with Dan Hardway, Betsy Wolf and myself? Mrs. Manell. ves. Mr. Goldsmith. In that interview Dan and Betsy were © 001420 7 Mrs. Manell. No. In any of the ones we are dicussing ' | | | | | | | | | TOP SECRET
12 id 29 24 HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 36 ‘the assassination in particular? | with the rest of it. I did the one thing and that is all I ' the original thing. TOP SECRET taking notes. Based upon the notes of what you said that day | their best recollection was that in fact these transcripts had been linked to Oswald prior to the assassination. Today you are unclear about that. ‘Mrs. Manell. I.am not talking about prior to the assas- -sination. I am talking in terms of the cable that I wrote. | Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give me the answer in terms of | Mrs. Manell. I think if the transcriber says it is the same person speaking in broken Russian, then it must be. I am not doubting what he is saying. Mr. Goldsmith. I agree that it must be the same person - or it may be :the same person. That still does not answer the question whether these transcripts were all linked to Oswald prior to ‘the ‘assassination. Mrs. Manell. ‘t am sure they must have been, yes, but I didn't do it, that is all’ I am saying. JI had nothing to do did on Oswald. Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have made that Link and put everything in the P files? Mrs. Manell. The rest of the information? Tf it came over my desk I would have sent it to his P file. I did not do a roundup after all of this was over with. I only wrote O04Le7. TOP SECRET
HY 0955 a i 10 aU 22 Ng 24 prior to the time you sent the cable, the 10-8 cable? “described in the cable or’ I would have put it in. It is Mr. Goldsmith. who would have made the link to oswala? Would it have been Herbert Manel, your husband? | Mrs.” Manell.’” 1 would, thinkhe and I éogether most ~ probably because some of this is unclear. ‘Boris would have had to ao with it in.connecting the broken Russian ‘with: the’ unidentified’ person. | | Mr. Goldsmith. By the time of the assassination all of these materials would have been. in his Pp file?’ Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. To clarify, again, to the best of your memory, you don't recall seeing the 27th and 28th transcripts Mrs. Manéll. ‘Let: us put it this way, that did not Link them if I did see them. He was unnamed in it, in both of these transcripts. ‘He was dot naméd: “I£ I saw ‘them 1 aia not think at that time that it was the person that ft either that or I didn't see it at the time I wrote the cable. Then I wouldn't have written a followup because he was on record. He was an American. I put him on record and that is all I did. | Mr. Goldsmith. Would you have written a followup if headquarters had requested to be kept apprised? Mes. Manel. I am just trying, to think if the Cubans would have sent this. I don't understand this, that it just . : ay . an . . ~ . : ‘
| cane through on our lines. I just don't think that I could. | to connect this one with that one whenever possible. If I _ have séen these, is all.I can think of. I was. always trying -had seen. this I am sure I would have raised a lot of question “5 Mr. Goldsmith... This clearly came in-on“a Soviet phone? 6 Mrs.’  Manell. Yes. | 7 7 Mr. Goldsmith. it would have been one of your lines? og. Mrs‘ Manell, : Yes. | a \ | ‘Mr. Goldsmith. | I am referring now ‘to the 28 September | 10 | 1963. transcript. ‘Now, at the time of our interview, Mrs. " Manell,. according to the notes. taken by ban Haraway and Betsy. |: i | Wolf you did not indicate to us’ at that time that you did not: | e 13 | “see the transcripts. | . | oO an 4d Mrs. Manell. I.don't think you ever asked me that | | AAS | question. - | 6 | Mr. Goldsmith: - We certainly did. 17. | Mrs. Manell. “You aid not ‘ask me’ if there -was a =r I description. vou dia-not suggést 1 was incomplete in sending “19 | the cable or raise any question like that at all that: I - | | 2 | remember. I mean, t am saying that 1 sent everything that’ wag : a available to me when I sent that,cable and I, did not: mention “4 2 1 the Cuban Embassy.- “I would have mentioned the Cuban Embassy ' | . #@ 73 | | if I had. seen its. It is'a point’ of ‘wtien it. was recognized, , 24 | when.'it was decided that chese to anknoma were connected | } 2s 4owith, oswald. That is the pointy, ee on | HW 50955 Dogld: 32277219 ‘Page ad
22 | 24 HW 50955 . Docld:32277219 Page 89 TOP SECRET @ i 3 -either I didn't get: this for some unknown reason -- perhaps TOP SECRET a6 Mr. Goldsmith.. That is exactly the issue. ; | Mrs. Manell.. TI am just not sure. I don't know. . When did Boris link this up? _ Mr. Goldsmith. One moment, Mrs. Manelk. Mrs. Manell. “I remember those. There was something about this, the Cuban relationship becuase I remember being a bit annoyed, the more I think this thing through, about how come I didn't know about that. So there is: something. about they were holding it out to see if they could identify the person. I don't know. But there is something -- “Mr. Goldsmith. why don't you wait a moment . We are going to Look up our. notes, read ‘them to you and have you comment on them. 4 woh, “Tr am going to read you the notés that were taken. They - refer to you by your Agency pseudonym. "Dillinger was asked what action she took.after receiving: this transcript. | She said she had already Seen the prior transcripts and may have | rechecked.them. Because of the absence of information from. prior transcripts in the cable, Gestetner -- Mr. Manell ~- suggested that some of the prior transcripts may have been’. unavailable because. they were being routed around the: station. "An examination of some of the prior transcripts revealed routing indications that Dillinger acknowledged writing.” Mrs. Manell. .That is right. miioee:
TOP SECRET on red Mr..Goldsmith. "After checking the station's files’ for o 2| further information on Oswald, she said she wrote the cable 7 3 | Mexico 6453"-- that is the cable dated October 8 -- "and at r ) 4 the same time wrote a memo to the Legat. Dillinger ta ee - 8 acknowledged that the routing notation would have been writte . 6 |. on the transcripts when she first received them. Gestetner | 9 acknowledged that a filing instruction directing one of the 8 9/27 conversations to the Oswald P file was in his handwritin . | He indicated that this notation would have been ‘made at the | 10 | time the P file was opened. W "Both Gestetner and Dillinger acknowledged that the 12 | connection between the conversations was noted prior to the 13 | assassination." = | fe 14 Are those notes ‘accurate? . 1S i Mrs. Manell. ves. q don't believe Io am contradicting 16 i myself. It is a little confusing, I can see.’ I am trying i a 7 | to answer to the best of my ability but all I am saying is 13 that when I sent the first cable, if I had known about the 19 connection with the Cubans or I had associated it -- I may 20 | not have associated it because he was not named, that is the 7 only thing. — 22 | Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to stress again, the aim ® 33 here is not to catch you in contradictions. Please don't 1 | scoters me. We are trying to review ‘the record and “ys | have you explain it to us. 004 i BR . . . : : : : : aa ee pe nee ence ne a en ne ee ite ANNONA SERENE +e OR eee a : + . . TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 90
TOP SECRET = sl Mrs. Manell. JI understand. I will try. a \ is no mention made to them in the cable dated October 8." 24 i] After we reviewed the transcript a’bit more you reconsidered - ca: oar 7 Mr. Goldsmith. -“Let ‘us move on to CIA 183. - oo 3 Mrs. Manell. Tt isn't that I am-saying now that I did B | 4 not see these in sequence. - - ) | Mr. Goldsmith. You mean you may not have made the | 6 connection? | 7 “Mrs. Manell. “that is right. That is all i am saying §. now in looking a at this because [I am ‘thorough when I do some- - | thing, you. can bet on i, and I dia not see or connect these » 10 |, things because he is not named in these transcripts. tt is - "| possible I saw them in’ sequence but because he wasn't named 2 I did not think that’ I could cnr it factually in the’ & 13 | ostnes a So: I sent the cable ‘as I did. | os 4 te can go around and acound, that aoe is Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, your explanation is per- 16 | .fectly undestandable. - | v Mrs. Manell. 1 am hot trying to obscure anything. * r.. Goldsmith. Let me see if I can summarize the 19 _explanation for you very briefly. °I don't want to -put words so in your mouth. Tell me if this is accurate. a When we first went over these transcripts your first 2) reqponse was that "I couldn't have seen these because there : 4 ; ; | : r somewhat and testified that you may have seen the earlier Metaed. a cern ce et enna pepe erent nt eet tng pet i ny AT SE = ent | entertainer HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 91 | TOP SECRET
1 | transcripts in’ sequence but that because none of those | transcripts. referred specifically, to oswaia by name,’ for that reason there was no reference made in the. October 8 cable to ; these earlier transcripts. | | Mrs. Manell. ves. Mr. Goldsmith..Is that accurate? 4 Mrs. -Manell. Yes. oo eB ) ; oa Gn vy & - CP) nD Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. In any event prior to the assassi- nation all.of the, transcripts were tied. to Oswald? 10 | Mrs: Manell. Yes. | Wi . ‘Mr. Goldsmith.’ Let -us move on to > CIA’ number 183. This . is a cable dated 11 October 1963 from CIA headquarters, to | Mexico City station. ‘Would you read. through that? \ ; a Mrs. Manell. Do I have know the content or are you “just establishing this is the one I saw? °° Mr. Goldsmith. I think you can skim it. If I have.a- specific question about, the content Iwill draw your attentio | | "| to it. Do you remember’ reading that cable when at came into | 19 Mexico City station? | . | | 0 Mrs. Manell.* ‘yesh 8 oe 21 | Mr. Goldsmith, | hose handwriting is this in the upper - sR | left hand portion: of the: page ‘which save “Sic underscored? ® 143 | Mrs. Manell: That is. Mr. scottis handwriting. This is 24 | nis, - - 2s Mr. Goldsmith. Also his check mark? oo | 2 re ea 7 . i 7 | S 7 | : _ oe ed ua fey voor become | TOP SECRET \ NW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 92 .
TOP SECRET = iit 20 7 Mrs.-Manell. Yes. | Mr. Goldsmith. Would he have put these marks in at the ‘time the cable artived at the Mexico City station? ) 7 Mrs. Manell. Yes, before he routed it he nit those in. Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Now, the cable refers to oswala as Lee “Henry Oswald? . - : Mrs. Manell. Yes, that is why he put "sic" beacause’ _ -e had it.as Lee Oswald. .He is.saying it is Lee Henry Oswald. | ae “ws a 7 : | LS a a SN NON CONTNNNNSLSRENN SEPT aera SRT . Te is the ‘fall name which may or may not be our man. That “ist 10 the. way I interpret it when he put "sic", . WW -Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Are you interpreting the term "sic" a 12 to mean, AKA, also “known ais? | | —_ | & 13 : Mrs. Manell. "Not necessarily. _t am saying this is the | Oe | 14 + way headquartérs has information oh Lee Henty’ Oswald who 1s may or may not be our Lee’ Oswald. that, is why he put “sic”. 46 : Mr. Goldsmith. “Genezally the term 'sic" is used to refe wh to a word or a subject and indicating that an error has been - 18 committed. 19 | Mrs. Manell. That is right. “| 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. When he refers to Lee Henry Oswald and j 7 sic is pointing to Henry do you think Scott is indicating there oe a 22 | was an error here, that it was not Henry, it was Harvey? ® . 7 3 | Mrs. Manell. The first time I saw this I interpreted ie} 2 | mean, and I am sure he meant. that, this is headwaters 7 2s H information on a Lee Henry Oswald. ‘We’ reported on.a Lee | So oo any ee — B01 e8 HW 50955 Docla:32277219 Page 93 a TOP SECRET -
TOP SECRET | Oswald. So he is saying this could or could not be. ‘| - : : t . erence nee gh: Perens essere rane tN rans Ane pane edna hers tinsunssntenesnnthetastantatnen tet en ARH Erte eee ey Sn . " + ‘ a 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Headquarters might be mistaken, it is a 3 | possibility? & 4 , Mrs. Manell. It is r possibility, yes. That is how I - _ 5 interpreted what he wrote. Not that -he couldn't be our man, 6 | he could be, but it is just that the name is different. op de: Mr. Goldsmith. Paragraph 5 indicates, "Please keep . 8 headquarters advised of any furither contact or possitive - | identification of Oswald." 10 | Mrs. Manell. Right. That would. suggest that if there 1 || was linage in all of that through here, I would think someone 12 = have written another cab le about all'of this. From 13 | here on it was not in-my hands. | an 14! Mr. Goldsmith. Please refer to CIA number 182. This is 45 : a routing sheet -- 16 | Mrs. Manell. Here is the date for the P file setup righ WV | here. | 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Whose handwriting is that? 19 | Mrs. Manell. That is Mr. Scott's. | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Scott is indicating here that a P 21 | file should be opened up, is that correct? “yt 22 | Mrs. Manell. Yes. @ . 13. | Mr. Goldsmith. A P file would have been opened up on . | Oswana shortly after October 11, 1963? Ae | Mrs. Manell. Yes. Prior to that. we would have had no ? t TOP SECRET a 081426 HW 50955 BDocld: 32277219 Page 94
Soviet contact information on him. mn ute Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you now CIA: number | Oswald's contact to be fairly significant, perhaps. by virtue | Lo 3 | 181 which is the headquarters copy of the October li. cable. iD | 4 yo it - indicates t that ‘Thomas ‘Karamassines was the releasing . - 5. officer. a" Mrs. Manell.. Yes. ly Mr. Goldsmith. Why would Mr. Karamassines be the releas, 3 ‘ing officer? | | | : . | | | 9 | . Mrs. Manell. 1 don't know. | 10 | Mr. Goldsmith. Bo you. regard that as unusual, someone | i. _ Lo ar | high up in the- organization’ ‘being a ‘releasing officer? | 12 - ; Mrs. Manell. Perhaps because all. of ‘the other “agencies - | 13 | are involved. 1 I- don’ t know. You would have to to know what | coe “Id the rules and regulations are, Maybe because these various | 1S | Port were involved. That may have something to do with | 16. why he released it. | | | | WV Mr. Goldsmith. So, those other agencies ‘would not as “| “1a: a matter of routine be ‘notified when an ordinary American | | | contacts the Soviet Embassy? - | “| Mrs. Manell: No. We would routinely notify ‘the Attache] a our headquarters would. have been notifed by cable and Lt would} | ous 2 | have been their: oresponsibility to notify appropriate authority, ip | Mr Goldsmith, By the time this cable reached Mexico | | | a nicy 4b was ; clear that CIA heddquarters anyway considered’ | | | | ONL130 HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 95
i | ‘ ) TOP SECRET ; a ay tt os his ‘background as a defector. Is that an accurate state- this. Mr. Goldsmith. They certainly considered it sufficientl important. to notify all thesé other agencies? “i Mrs: Manell: - Yes, Looking at his background, the fact that he had been in the Soviet Union and married a Soviet” ment? ‘jo. °° Mrs. Manell. I guess so. I wasn't, involved in all.of/ woman, there was something strange about him. . Mr. Goldsmith. This particular cable, referring to 183, po first. paragraph, contains a correct."description of Oswald,’ 12 does it not? S - 13 | Mrs. Manell. T don't know. I don't know, I never did os . 144 read how tall he was or anything elses: . a 15 Mr. Goldsmith. Tt ‘contains ‘a description that the | | : 16 Agéney had ‘on file for Oswald? a a a WF Mrs, Manell. “Fora Lee Henry Oswala,. right. oo 18. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether at that time anyone . ; “19 at Mexico City statioh went back to'the photograph to see _ . 20 -. whether they matehed? 0 ee | | ya Mrs. Manell.. I couldn't answer that. I dontt know. - | - op 2 Mr. Goldsmith. ‘On. number 183, in ‘the margin it says | e . | 3 24 years old. oe ° 7 | | : 24 | | Mrs. Manel. I don't know whose writing that is. I was | - as i Yooking at that. this is the same writing. I don't now ‘who’ . HW 50955 Doctld: 32277219 Page ‘96. ne TOP SECRET co
— «TOP SECRET = | wrote that. Mrs. Manell. I don't. think White wrote like that. Tt is not Scott's writing, it could have been White's ,;, it could have been Good pasture's. “It is ot mine. It is not Herb's beacuse 1 know his writing. It could have been someone in files. t oe Mr.’ Goldsmith. Is.it possible that it ‘is Ann Goodpastur ? Mr. Goldsmith. Now, number 182 asks about photos.. Mr. 4 _ ne | ‘| scott indicated -- fo | 10} Mrs. Manell. Yes, and put, all’ data we have into it and - "| then he has a questisn mark, photo: “ ghis goes to the file. .4 “42 That is’ me. vo Bo | : | / a 13 | | Mr. Goldsmith. this is action per paragraph 5 taken | | oe 14 October. 1963?" aoe 7 a | is Mrs. Manell. It looks like 15, it is 15 or 13. ; | aed Mr. Goldsmith. 1 believe Ann Goodpasture wrote “we cy . VW | snoute ask headquarters for. photo." She, is in paragraph | ; 4 i. | Mrs. Manell. That is right. | 19 | ur. Goldsmith. This’ says action was taken? . | | 20 | Mrs. Manell. I -took that. Phat is my writing. So we ; va | vote up memos. | | | ok t 4 My . 22 | Mr. Goldsmith. This here were it says "action per e | . "3 | paragraph 4 taken" does that refer to number 4 over here? | | 24 | Mrs. Manell. “Action per para 4 means down here. | - 25 H Mr. Goldsmith. The cable? oe oe | a oe - | . - 004432. “cocotme wey TOP SECRET HY 50955 Docld:32277219 - 7 o Page 37
TOP SECRET si ‘kets 1 | _ Mrs. Manell. Yes. I wrote that. That is my writing. - | \ nD Mr. Goldsmith. Now, I am referring you.to CIA 185. Gs This is a cable to the Director. fm Mrs. Manell. I don't know. I imagine Ann wrote that, 5 or Herb. 7 Mr. Goldsmith. this is a cable asking for the photo? -+ ? Mrs. Manell. Yes. 5 didn't send it. I think Ann did 8 because she was told to by Mr. Scott, he put “photos 9 |; question mark." -So that would have been her job. 10 Mr. Goldsmith.. Who wrote this over here? Mrs. Manell. - That is my handwriting. Mr. Goldsmith. Referring to action taken? ant i AS me Mrs. Manell. Yes. This paragraph here in the cable 14 which means the dissemination. as | Mr. Goldsmith. Let us Look at CIA number 187. Please 16 | read through that and tell us what it is. Would you identify | this document? 13 | Mrs. Manell. -It is a memornadum from Mr. Scott to the .| Ambassador, to the U.S. Ambassador. 20 | , Mr. Goldsmith. Who is actually the author of the memo? 7 7 Mrs. Manell. I was. 40 2 Mr. Goldsmith. This was prepared for Mr. Scott? 8 73 | Mrs. Manell. Yes. | 24 | “Mr. Goldsmith. This is in reference to the Oswald ae | | ‘contract, is that right?  & fot m9 aed] HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 936 TOP SECRET
10 JU Ww tn HW 50955 DocId: 32277219 Page 99 OP SECRET to them. TOP SECRET “Mr. Goldsmith. ° At’ the bottom of the page it. indicates . who else was to receive a copy? Mrs. Manell. . That is right. Mr. Goldsmith. Why were so many people given copies of this memo, do you -know? . Mrs. Manell. Because it was requested that we send it 5 Mr. Goldsmith, In other words ; ‘the cable requested that? Mrs. Manell. ves. | a ee Sone - . | Mr. Goldsmith. — So, the cable indicated that nesdauarterd was going to be routing this to the centrally ‘located head- aa quarters of the Agency in Washington, D. C., for example, wl and that Mexico City station was to contact the agency's Mrs.-Manell. Through memo, yes. | Mr. Goldsmith. Now, this memo is dated 16 October. It -} also makes no reference to the: contact with the Cuban’ Embassy./' | local offices in Mexico City? oe - | | Mrs. Manell. “Well, because we were’ just following and ~ doing what, they told us to do. Which is send this information; Mr. Goldsmith. Will you read paragraph 4 of the 183?. ~; Mrs. Manell. "Station should pass info ref in para L to those various, places." ref"?- | a | | | Lo ne | Mr. Goldsmith. What does that mean when it’ says “info, | i mo, | Mrs. Manell. Any information contained in the reference, | | | { 001134
oe » 22 | 24 HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 100 JOP SECRET i sss which was our original cable. . ft ee . Mr., Goldsmith: » Basically you felt that your obligation’ was to tell them only about the -- : | | Mrs. Manell. We sent everything but we did not.put in height, weight and all of that. Why did they need to know that? We gave them the basic information for indentifying the person by name. — We tole them what headquarters asked us + to tell them. : Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know if a memo was sent to the” other agencies when you found out that Oswald had been to the Cuban Embassy? _ Mrs. Manell. I-don't know. | { Mr. Goldsmith. Were any of these other agen¢ies ever | notified that, Oswald was seeking a. visa? . | : “urs. Manell. We notified chem as indicated here. | Mr. Goldsmith. vhis does not really say he is going to | get a visa though, referring to number 197, Mrs. Manell. ‘What’ do’we say in the cable? Did we say eo | it was a visa? ! Mr. Goldsmith. Here is the cable, it makes reference | to a telegram. “S0 the cable ‘does not refer to a-visa. | Mrs. Manell. Except we talk about consul. | | Mr. Goldsmith. “Would .a consul, be responsible. for srant-| ing a visa?._ | a | | “Mrs. Manell. You! might think that. I. think the logical BLES ‘|
- 8811386 | | a L| extn won be to think that. | a ‘| . Mr. Goldsmith. Essentially your’ memo to the Ambassador 3. "gave in substance the information that you had sent to head- @ 4 quarters in your cable with some additional information? - | 5. ‘Mrs. Manéll. ves, the infortiation’ that headquarters: | 6 asked us to send in addition. i : Da oth: 7 Mr.- Goldsmith. Paragraph 3 says "This office will aavisd, | you if additional information on this matter is received." + oF ‘Do you: know, whether: that information was ever sent? - | 10 | Mrs. Manell. r don't know. I don't remember sending | n | anything, T know. | ; rn 12 | Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, if at the time the P file | @ 7 13 | had been opened up all ‘the ‘ergnseripts had been tied into a 1d | oswald, by then it was known that Oswald was requesting a | Is | visa; wouldn't that be a fair statement? | 16 | Mrs. Manell. ves. ce ; : . i” oo ; 17 | Mr. Goldsmith. Yet the memo to the Ambassador does ~ 12 |. refer to that. Is there any particular ‘reason why? | | . | urs. Manell. Because we handled it and we were very : a . 20 |. careful in what se sent people. We sent them factual infor~ | ; 21 | mation. We were told what to send and that. is what sent | | ‘22) based on the original cable and the additional information.“ ® 73 I did not reword it, in other words. ! aM Mr. Goldsmith. ‘You made" an affirmative statement that | 5 as you have no clarifying information. | | TOP SECRET BW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page i101
22 24 HW 50955 Bocld: 32277219 Page i102 TOP SECRET sana be— eewrarutrerarnpaslaresanny sus sn serhgan? (tame sndpdendstheaascsty hgh say a En neh ose ines MAROON G66 tS AR EE EE RI A RE itn ete ener minarets AE SERS 8D A EE I EC Te TET ER ar reer ve anerraespapcaae pasate —ansesenascncernsaenanapoanatae 2 a a TT TOP SECRET =s—i(<ékstts Mrs. Manell. That is the way we decided to send it out. I don't know whether it is oversight on my part. Whether we just wanted togt it on the record or what, or did we want to give a whole grocery list about this man, I don't remember what went through our minds. I don't remember discussing it with anyone. Maybe I made the decision not to include the grocery list but give a bare outline. I did what headquarter asked me to, to the best of my knowledge. Mr. Goldsmith. The paragraph also indicates that you’ determined that Oswald had been in contact ‘with Kostikov. Mrs. Manell. ‘That is mentioned in the transcript. Mr. Goldsmith. How did you determine that? Mrs. Manell. It said so in the transcript. I just finished reading it awhile ago. He is identified here. Mr. Goldsmith. You are looking at the transcript of October ist? Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA number 13, which is the transcript from October ist, is there a reference there to Kost ikov? Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Referring to CIA number 177, the cable “dated October 8, here it reports that Oswald contacted the Soviet Embassy on 29 September. He spoke with consul whom he believed to be Kostikov. My question is, how would you get 00113% ! | | | | ! Fog | | t
a «i .* | 24 . - HW 50955 Doold:32277219 Page 103 TOP SECRET ee en eae ener erent petreen at renr are cee rere rere eet reper rere argnaassuasuronqnssunavensnsanaenanunar ttre varir or 0 re PO AR A ER AED Le SD AES TST OI : ae. from someone whom you believed --~- Consulate Section. That is a description of him. 'Kostikov was in the Consulate Section? -of Kostikov. But I knew a whole lot about him. I probably caesar snp enn an aa A OR EIT RNC Mrs.. Manell. We knew it was Kostikov. He was in the Mr. Goldsmith.. How did you .know that? You knew .that Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr.: Goldsmith. Weren't there any other people in the Consulate Section ‘that Oswald talked to? | a decided that it was Kostikov. Mr. Goldsmith. - I have no further questions. I thank you for cooperating with us. Mrs. Manell. Is there anything that is unclear that — . Iocan help in any way? this matter prior to the assassination other than the cable that you think was sent to CIA headquarters? Mrs. Manell. I am’ sure. there was, but I didn't do it. I don't know. Mr. Goldsmith. pia you assist your husband with this case after the assassination? » | | Mrs. Manell. Yes, in terms of following Soviet movement yes, we did considerable work. on that. Mr. Goldsmith. Was that the only aspect of your: OUT tEs ¥' Mrs. Manell. ‘I don't «remember the physical description Mr. Goldsmith. Was there any additional action taken on ee eee ee ee
JOP. SECRET ms involvement? Os . a cn Mrs: Manell. As I recail, that. is what ve: concerned «| ourselves with.: Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Do-you know anything ‘about the 1977 Inspector General report? | . Mrs. Manell. No. Mr Goldsmith. Did anyone from the Inspector General's office of the CIA ever contact you? | | | | “ : . ! Mrs. Manéll. Ir have never been contacted, never. / Mr. Goldsmith. You have been very patient, Mrs. Mane1l. | ft want to thank you for your time. | Normally when we have a hearing, we. give the‘witness an, |. _ opportunity to make a statement... If you would like that opportunity now, please feel free... i Mrs. Manell: I can't think of anything. I have tried ro ne nr ©. eS ne sess pee ses ee to be as forthright. as possible. | Are .there any contradiction ae in your mind? ,I can see where we had difficulty over these & | —— : : “| transcripts. I’ am“just not clear, I am just not clear about 19 | time sequence. But I: know, if’’I-realized that this unnamed - 20.|- person was Oswald. and was. in touch. with the Cuban Embassy . | that would Have “been made’.a part of the original cable. Ther ee 22 | is-no question about my not including it. If I had had that ee i information.it would have been included. 24 | “Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you very much. i 2s is Mrs: Manell. You are welcome. ore - : TOP SECRET ss H¥ 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 104 |
1] | Mr. Goldsmith. If your husband would like to come in | Oo - 9i here, I can do a marathon, but if you would ‘like to ‘break for- 3 lunch,.that is fine. (Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the hearing was concluded.) I have “read the foregoing pages. wo through oe, inclusive, which contain a correct transcript ‘of the answsrs ‘made. by. me to ‘the woe oF questions . therein recorded. | 9 a | 4 : | | | . 10 | mo ; Signature is Subject to A“) | Ju [| (Deponent' Ss Signature). e. "| { ad oT, oO , Notary Public in, and © 1S | | for the District of Columbia, do hereby. certify that I am 167 7 notarizing and witnessing signature for the deposition of 17 | Mrs. Barbara Murphy Manell on ‘this’ _ day of _ 19 oo I . me, oe Notary Public ‘in and for “the ° Z 20. District of Columbia ; se 22 | My Commission expires | | 24 | a , | | [ { TOP SECRET 50955 Docld:32277219. Page 105
CERTIFICAT OF NOTARY PUBLIC arse on 3 I, Alfred Joseph LaFrance, the officer before whom the G3 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing: deposition da, ‘was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 5 6 taken by me in shorthand to the best of my ability and there-|- 7 after reduced to typewriting under my direction, that said | 8 deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said | a >| witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor | 104 employed by any of the parties to the action in which this | 7 1 ‘deposition was taken; and further that I am not a relative or 12 employeed of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties - ae 13 | thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the out- *l- ce 14 | come of the action. qo ist do: | 16 | . Notary Public in and for the VW District of Columbia { 18 . | | My Commission expires November 14, 1980 | 19 | | | | 20 | , { : 7 nt 22 | | ae! , | | | t HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 106 ; OP SECRET