AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE: DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : DOCUMENT TYPE : CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : JFK Assassination System Identification Form Agency Information SSCIA 157-1001 1-10025 TRANSCRIPT Document Information SSCIA COLBY, WILLIAM E. TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. COLBY, DCI 05/23/1975 118 ASSASSINATION PLOT CASTRO SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. COLBY, DCI OPERATION MONGOOSE CUBAN OPERATION PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT Unclassified Consulted; 1B; Donor Restricted Redact 04/26/1994 SSCI Box 239, Folder 15
JFK Assassination System Date: 8/27/20] Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY: CHENEY RECORD NUMBER: _ 178-10004-10112 RECORD SERIES: GENERAL SUBJECT FILE AGENCY FILE NUMBER : INTELLIGENCE--COLBY TESTIMONY/SSCIA 5/23/75 Document Information ORIGINATOR:  SCIA FROM: TO: TITLE: TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM COLBY, MAY 23, 1975 DATE: 05/23/1975 PAGES: 118 SUBJECTS : FBI TRAFFICANTE, SAM STURGIS, FRANK DOCUMENT TYPE: TESTIMONY CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret RESTRICTIONS: = 1A; 1C CURRENT STATUS: Redact DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 08/09/1993 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : v9.1 35 NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 2
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TESTIMONY: OF: . — PAGE Sr eee William E. Colby, : . 3 Director, CIA, . ‘== accompanied by -- Scott S, Breckinridge, Jr., Deputy Inspector General., Enno Knoche, © ASSistant to the Director, George L. Cary, - ’ Legislative Counsel ; NUMBER = a | | PAGE Colby E:hibit Nos. 1, 2, and 3, cardboard-backed . photographs, deemed marked in an off the record discussion early in the transcript, Colby No. 4 “7 : =. 31 Colby No. 6 ; . ; . 116 j Wren nee oe -ee a & ay Mae 4 “~ ed Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library - L% s ~ < = ~ 2 PN cab ry {2 i yes yy p verse ky wa NS ea ks NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 4
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 25 24 25 TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. COLBY, | DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY Friday, May 23, 1975 United States Senate, Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Raspect to Intelligence Activities, Washington, Dx Ce The comed Etde Met, purstiant to notice at 9:15 o'clock a.m., in Room 407, The Capitol Building, Senator Frank -Church (Chairman) presiding. Present: Sdnntaee ‘Chuitick (presiding), Hart of Michigan, Mondale, Sutdesten, kommen, Hart of Colorado, Mathias and Schweiker. ies seems William Miller, Staff Director, F.A.O. Schvarz, EIT, Chief Counsel; Curtis. R. Smothers, Minority Counsel; William Bader, Professional Staff Mamber, Photocopy from . 7 : ; _tOR haneme Ford Library | rag -> Fics a - . is 2 on te a 1a eH pares . se a fea tN Uae bos re HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 5 ‘
“Uuasewu CUULEH. “ie Nvaring wril come to order. . 2 _Mxry Scott Breckinridge is accompanying the Director this 3 ’ morning and may be called upon from time to time to testify. =a For that purpose, Mr. Breckinridge, will you please stand | 5 and be sworn? 6 Do you swear that all the testimony you may give in this 4 proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 8 the truth, so help you God? 9 Mx. Breckinridge. I do. 10 Chairman Church. Mr. .Schwarz will commence the questionin: this morning. 1 - 7 | 12: Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Colby, did you have some things you 3 - ° ? - - . 13 wanted to supply to the Committee? : : ; : 14 15 16 ‘ 17 18 } 7 i 20 4 ; et ui 2 23 24 3 Photocopy from ; . a a 2 25 Gerald Ford Library a : Lo “e “pe ; — . E fa o * . . ‘ ™% Inf ty diy ee (eer 2 * 50355 Docld:32112724 Page 6
(Swe ve waawann &y CULIY, DIRECTOR, CIA, ACCOMPANIED BY SCOTT Ss. BRECKINRIDGE, JR., DEPUTY INPSECTOR GE? NERAL , ENWO KNOCHE, ASSISTANT VO THE DIRECTOR, AnD GEORGE L,. CARY, “LEGISTAT IVE COUNSEL Mr. Colby. JI have an answer to a few of the questions that were raised at the meeting the other day and there are a couple of clarifications I would like to make. One, with' respect to the security investigations in the United States. The question Was asked whether we ever used private investigators, and I said we normally used our own investigators. We have some relationships with private investigatory firms which provide cover for our investigators and, oe we have a few firms which we own which are proprietary’if you will, — our investigators appear to be private. I said that in the past it is. clear that on occasion we did ask for private investigator firms to help us to some degree, It was usually the one that was giving us cover, and ~~ for reasons of overload we asked them to have their own people to do a — the investigations, | Ny General Counsel says that this is illegal. I kave a strong question about its propriety, if not legality, and I am undertaking to review this matter to see whether we can not just eliminate that practices avbizeiy, continuing the proprie- tary anc continuing the ase cf private investigators as cever Photocopy from FES &. CE - “2 x v Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 7
2 But I did want to clarify that. I think ‘I mentioned it 3 last time that there have been occasions on which this was 4 done. 5 Chairman Church. Mr. Colby, would you in connection with 6 your review of this matter supply the Committee with the spo- 7 cifics in those cases where the Agency has in fact engaged 8 private investigators to do Agency work? 9 Mr. Colby. I will certainly try to, Mr. Chairman. 2 10 confess this may be a tough job to locate every case but I Tt certainly will do my best. . Chairman Church. Will you provide the Committee with the 2 ° ‘ Ss : : s 43 opinion of your Counsel with respect to the legality of such? 4 e ke: Mr. Colby. I will. r 14 ; rT Chairman Church. Such use of private investigators? Mr. Colby. Yes. 16 » & 19 Chairman Church. And then I would ask the staff also T furnish the Committee with a brief on that question so that we 15 are-fully advised with respect to the law. 3 . ’ 3 Mr. Colby. Right. 5 20 . : The second subject, Mr. Chairman. Senator Nondale asked S al E for our command and control regulations for the approval of z ‘ee J covert action projects. These were supplied to the staff on “2 20 ‘ 5 the first of May and are available to the staff. = 24 ° Thirdly, £ was asked if Mr.-‘william Harvey was removed . 25 Ge FORD . Photocopy from - ™ oO “i Gerald Ford Library, NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 8
10 ak 12 13 14 15 16° 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 from the Agency because of his involvement in the assassination . Howard’ Hunt from “July '62 to August '64 was assigned as a ‘City. Way back. Ne was not in-charge. plans ‘against Prime Minister Castro. ~ Sees The facts are-that in June 1963 he was assigned | as oun’ W6Hin[] ane in | February of '67 he was ..- +: reassigned to CIA Headquarters. He retired voluntarily under our retirement system on 31 of December 1967. If I may, there is a _—— why he was taken out and if I could go off the record and mention that to the Committee. It is a matter of his privacy. Chairman Church. Very unde off the record. (Off the — discussion) Mr. Colby. - Back on the record. Senator Schweiker.asked me whether Howard Hunt or James McCord were in charge of Mextiour: overations at the time of President Kennedy's assassination on 22nd of November '63. Section Chief in the Division of Plans Directorate, which is now the Operations Directorate at CIA Headquarters, which had 4 ~~ no responsibility whatsoever for Mexican operations. Senator Schweiker. What were those dates again? Mr. Colby. July '62 to August ‘64, Senator Schweiker. Wasn't he at some point in Mexico City and in charge of that office? _ Mr. Knoche. Way back in the '50's he served in Mexico -N Photocopy from se wr a Gerald Ford Library rc ot? i La ale vr NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 9
nN - ve! 10 Ld 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ‘22 23 2A. 25 Affairs. Senator Schweiker. So that is the period you are saying he had no jurisdiction in any way with Latin America or Mexicar vs Mr. Colby. No, he was in what we call, and we have since changed the name, io fonesttc Operations Division at that time, our operations here in this country, and that is a whole different subject I would have to explain some day. Mr. McCord from June '62 to vena liad was } @assgned as a and he had no responsibilities for Mexican operations at that point. Senator Morgan last time asked what information was given to the Warren Commission concerning Agency assassination plans concerning Castro, and I have been advised our records do not indicate that the Warren Commission was provided with inforna- tion on this subject. Allen Dulles, of course, I would nots, who was the CIA Director until the fall of '61, was a member of the Warren Commission, but beyond thet fact I have nothing I could after. And then who made the decision not to provide it, if none was given? ‘Gor records do not indicate that there was a CIA decision on this matter not to tell the Warren Commission. I could add that I believe the relationship with the Warszon Commission was handled ny one ef our stalss7ovR . fs° \ Photocopy from . te pt ® ot TW ALY ees a vefod Gerald Ford Library oF ) i Ci « jf? pa , Sf ome eee HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 10
10 u ‘12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 “259 =< Le HA Le Le MT, EAN | Sk LAGE I cannot’say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation system was such. | Chairman Church. What was the name of the CIA agent who was given the responsibility for liaison between the CIA and the Warren Commission? hr. Colby. To my Knowledge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca. Sirk ovaen Church. —_ is it now? ‘Mr. Colby. He retired at the end of December of last year. He remained working for us for a few months. I think he is retired. I think he is retired. I believe he is’ still in the Weshington area. Mr. Knoche. Yes, he is still working with us. Mr. Colby. Still working with us to help on the transi- tion of Eioowhole counter intelligence program. * “~~ Chairman Church. Why did he retire? Mr. Colby.. That ome the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, ané¢ the facts of that case were that I had had some professional HeRictiesscadae in_the organization with Mr. Angleton as to the way the counterintelligence business was run and the way the Israeli “account was handled. I believed that it required a higher degree of coordination of the other elements of the Directorate and of the Agency. “We had debated this on various occasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973 anc With th? 2. D) o . = of .. g rs took a numbzr of functions eway from it. The i SSeS oO & Photocopy from Ret Gary rep . Gerald Ford Library l Cy uf guys —— . : See CRS Ste My) NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page il
1 " endeavored to open up the Israeli account to a better relaticn- . ° .t ship with our et:icr Near Eastern activitics. We debated this 5 over many months and on several occasions. We could never 4 F really agree to it because he insisted on the importance of 5 . retaining it where it was. 6 Mx. Angleton had done a very good job of establishing that 7 : . liaison years ago and knew a lot of the senior Israeili who 8 : : were involved in it. 9 . I believed there was inadequate coordination in the Arab 10 areas. ld Also, aE believed that — was a undue degree of compart- 12 . mentation of that staff, that it needed more i sees with 13 . our other divisions. We dapannn this and discussed it and I 14 ; . set as my time limit for this discussion the end of December 15 _ because there were some very substantial retirement benefits 16 shai people would loose if they stayed after that point. Th 1? unfoxtonstaay the Seymour Hirsh acticle of December 22nd cams 18 to-our Attention before it was actually published, and so I 19 Lo brought Mr. Angleton up meat said that I was going to make two 20 , basic decisions. I was going to move the Israeli account fron 21 ‘ his control and I was going to put some sucessor leadership | 22 \ into the Head of the Counterintelligence Staff. I said I woul 23 oeter him a post of tving together some counterintelligence 24 doctrina, he could stay wotking with us. He om not hav2 to 25 [oie Photocopy from "42 °°) Gerald Ford Library Ent at, 3) (2 4 urn, rae tS =}. “ Ue a Sef wa Capiake [ “ ray NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 12
a AvbsrGe 44 HY Waslcd TO retire the opportunity was there, He 2 chose-to retire. I insisted that I talk to him before the 3 | Seymour HWirs- article appeared... I knew it was eomine: I 4 didn't know what it. was going to say. I wanted to make clear 5 || between him.and me that the decision was based upon our long~_ 6 standing discussion of how to run that particular activity. The question then came up who would be his successor and were possibilities. One of the officers, ones Hood, had said 10 in early December that he .planned to retire at the end of 14 December. The other two, Mr. Rocca and Hr. Miler, were inforndd 12 that they would not be the siGisesoy Chief of that stafé£, They 13 were offered a chance to stay on in their then current jobs, 7 8 Mr. Rocca was his Deputy. There were two other officers who They chose ‘to retire. All four of them agreed to stay with 14 15 us on a consultant basis over the next several months to help 15. us on the transition of new leadership into that job, and they 17 have done so. 18 Chairman Church. Well, without getting off the track, I 19 just have one further question here’in connection with Mr. 20 Angleton himself. 2] ‘ Is it true that he is still being paid as a consultant? 22 Mr. Colby. I believe it has dropped off,. Mr. Chairman. ' 93 Ke did help us for three or four months but I believe that £t 2A is terminated, It is about time to terminate it, I know, ard 25 whothor it is on this particular — hae b . TE) Cre, cary rs es he wikeena cee Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library é HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 13
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1 we set ourselves about six month period where we would have 3 ~ Chairman Church. rThexe is no, plan to retain him indefj~ 4 nitely? 2 5 3 Mr. Colby. Absolutely not. It was to help us get over 6 this transition and phase hin out. Chairman Church. Very well. Senator Mondale: I asked for vouchers on payments with respect to assassinations? Mr. is I am looking for that. I don't have an answe for you yst, Senator. The request was also made whether we had any information Po FoReaREL EY giets to assassinate Chou En Lai. We have reSorts of two — examples, ineids sents, both conducted by the Chinese Nationalists without our prior knowledge and without our ” marti et patlon. One in Aptril 1955, an Air India aircraft crashed at sea off Indochina after departing from Hong Kong. Several Chinese communist delegates for the Bandung Conference were on Te and it had been rumored that Chou En Lai would he on the aixeratt. On the llth of January 1956, the British Colonial Office) in Londen issued an official statement reporting they had mohaciet that the Chinese Nationalists had bribed a iene xong airpert amployee to place a time hemb on the airplane. The Photocopy from TC [3S (Tra awe yes 1 Gerald Ford Library HAE is tsyuAid i NW 50955 DocId:32112724: Page 15 a er =
on > Gli wy me.) 10 11 Le 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 Na ee te me ee we me ert wy Ae Ne a nok ee et. a oe are ae and the US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft enployoe had fled to Taiwan. We had nothing to do with that incident and frankly heard ‘about it after it occurred. In the. fall of 1956, a senior Chinese Nationalist Official i a 3 informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National planned to assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in November ‘56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest of the Chines® Nationalist officer sent to Phnom Penh to supervis the attempt. Wa lemma of this after it had happened and we — nothing to de with it. " We had a relationship with die, Cites Nationalists intelligence Servica over the years and, they clearly have Gone things without ovr knowledge or involvement, and in a number of areas, but we have also worked together on some areas. These are two that were ayn. anes < was: asked to look at the photographs of Howard Hun and Sturgis that appeared in.Nowsweek some years ago. We obtained this photograph from the FBI last night about 5 o'cleck. We had not had it before. We had a copy of the Newsweek edition. These are photcgraphs of Howard Hunt in 1945, 1950 and 1961. This is the only photograph we have of Mr. Stuxgis. It is taken out of the Newsweek. We have had no connection with Mr. Sturgis and so we hav2 if %. FORD 5 .* : ‘ “* ¢ ; ay OT : Lae 8 ie | 4 a. 2 = eee ee \ Photocopy from u \* Gerald Ford Library Wd NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 16
10 i 12 13 14 15 16. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 NW 50955 24 . 25 | oo A ep, BUS 2B subject to en ween of it. We had our photographic experts and analysts and so forth look at these two individuals here who were picked up. We examined — in’ considerable detail, and talking about the "61 Hunt photograph, comparing it with this, and this is the photograph ,Newsweek phetegraph. You will see that there is a lot of sortof fundanental differences in the kinds of - app2arances they have, different characteristics of the individuals. With respect to Sturgic, of course, we are not as confi- dent ee we don't have as good a base to work from in our conpariieeon: but at the same time we see differences there also. Now, we fueener looked, had one of our disguise people -- we obviously have people who can disguise you -="the rea wig eipisode.. It wasn't red, they insist, Lt wasn't i11 fitting: - That is the thing thet chey get upsetaout. But they say that “ it would not be feasible to have them actually in a disguises, have these individuals actually in this disguise, that it is too-big a jump, it differs. Senator Huddleston. How about the size of the tnaiivdauas are they pretty close? Mr. Colby. These two are, le looks like a shorter man fron the surroundings. And Hunt is abovt medium height, rathe. than this short. ‘ Mr. Knochs. Hunt is five feet Photocopy from i ~ spe conte emeve Gerald Ford Library , |; © (2 CAS ee tea Nahata & DocId:32112724 Page 17
ee ee ker eT oO > Gi 10 ou | 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19° 290 21 23 24 25 were able to do a pretty good job on Nunt and, what they do is identify certain key points, make measurements and put adjust- ments, the same thing we do for the satellite photography in terms of hese ReEAMERENES, and things like that, and compara it in that sense, and their conclusion: is shee clearly. this is —s Hunt. They are absolutely confident that this photograph is AGN, HAR, They are less confident that it is not Sturgis because of the base on which nay are operating, but they thin! it is not. | | I point out that — analysis was done overnight, about 3 o'clock in the morning. This is Sturgis. Mr. Schwarz. And to the right?’ Mr. Colby. This is a newspaper photograph of Hunt; a recent one. These are sort of Agency photegraphs of him when he was an employee. Senator Hart Of Colorado. Were those men ever identifica by the Dallas Police? - Mz. Colby. They must have booked them or something if they carried them in. I woang don't know. If they took them ‘in I would assume thay would have had to book them. Senator Hart of Colorado. What are theses pictures on the lower right and left? Mr. Colby. These are the blowups of the particular —_ 4, photographs. a sty, . i 5 . . - = , 3 Photocopy from at FD ESD Shere we cE =} Gerald Ford Library Zur als \aebwta | ~ +. ? HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 18
LO Li 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Senator Hart of Colorade. Not the one you ed wuctiae? fie. Colby. They are different. Senator Hart Of Colorado. They ar2 different angles? Mr. Colby. This is ee Senator Hart of Colorado, ‘They are different photographs? Mr. Colby. It is reversed. . ‘ Senator Hart Of ‘Colorado. No. They are.not A and B even reversed. | Mr. Colby. . They can do that kind of a — through the - Senator Hart of Colorado. They can twist the photcgraphs ecound? , Mr. Colby. . They can “make it appear at a differ ent angle. Senator Hart of Colorado. B at least is a totally dif- ferent pose. They weonad his mouth Gown. His cyes are closed They have really done a job if they changed B to that lower right. | Mr. Colby. They can aha them, honest. Let me get my brief on that and I will answer that gunavl on. | They magnified them to the same scale using the eves and as The contrast and texture differences were minimized, continuous tones photographs en eloyed and angular compensatic ns were made to offset errors sneident to the different heads. Shey _ mix them around in that kind of fashion. Sonater Schwedlar. Ware these men Cetained? If they woxre ; UAB fF; wr ystip 349 Photocopy from ¥ (F}. e: ey eet Pas Fs vu Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 19
~ oa bi 10 11 12 ‘13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el detained maybe there are photographs from their detention, Were these men ented? ~ Mr. Colby. At the time we have had to work on this we haw just looked at the photographs. Senator Schweiker. I assume that is where they are going to b2 detained. Mr. Schwarz. Wasn't tke same analsysis done for the Rockefeller Commission about two months ago? In other words, there has been an analysis at least once before last night, hasn't there? Mx.. Knoche. Not by us. Mr. cathy. ‘Perhaps by —— Chairman Church. Mx. Director, that is a different photograph. Mr. Colby. It does look like it. I will answer that question next time I come up. Chairman Church. All right. How can we follow up on ths Ldonedt ky of these two psople in connection with the Dallas: Police? Would that be done through the FBI? Mr. Colby. FBI. I could ask or you could ask, it —— be better if you ask. Chairman Church. Well, I think we should. I think these should be marked as Committee Exhibits and staff should b2 instructed to follow through wlth tha FBI to get what further information there may be Shout the photographs as and these two a ee MOR Photocopy from fe ° P Vl a Clr z ee Gerald Ford Library GE? ‘y iE a): GRE (aew NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 20
CS a eel eee Vee ‘Senator Schweiker. Did you get the other ohotograw/ the 3 stpposed Oswald photograph leaving the Embassy? 4 Mx. Colby. i don't have that with me. It is in the 5 Warren Commission published expurt, It is in there. 6 Senator Schweiker. It is im there? " Mr. Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in order to a conceal where it was taken but it was -- 9 Senator Schweiker. It. is in the Warren Commission? 10 Mr. ys Yes, it is in the Warren Commission. 11 Just one additional matter, ’ rT * Chairman church. Just one thing I would like to say to you, Nr. Colby, before I forget it. You have made reference 13 rr to the Israeli account and the special wey that it had been -_ handled under Mr. Angleton. Before we finish our review with - you of covert operations we would like to have a more detailisd statement of that matter. a7 ; Mr. Colby. Right. 18 . 19 = cnmL aan Church. And I think you should peapers: Go - discuss it with us and we will have further questions to ask you in connection with it. 21 I just wanted to give you notice, 22 ; 23 Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a " covert action but that is all right, no problem, I will cover 4 . it. - — from 25 PhotocoPy rary Gerald Ford Ui CE BF hab I a HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 21
wo 10 LL 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 “20 21 22 24 25 Casi CHULCH., ALL Light. At some point then in our investigation? Mr. Colby. Sure, no problem. The only other one thing I would like to suggest for tho record, fxr. Chairman, with respect to the discussion of the attempts made against Mr. Castro, in no way sneha yeas them, My position on this is quite clear. I do én it important’ to put that exercise in the context of the times, which was the.times of the: Bay of Pigs, which was a decision made ty Seca the Government. The Cuban missile crisis, and following that, a program approved by our normal covert action approval mecha- nism to try to generate an overthrow of Mr. Castro from within Cuba by assisting various groups to go in with Sabatage and by putting economic pressure on the country, and so forth. That went on for a number of years after the 1961-62 episodes _and I think it does put a cover of policy attitude toward Cuba and toward Mr. Castro that is an important factor in evaluat=_ ing the thing, without in any way justifying the particular attempts to assassinate him. Senator Hart of Michigan. But was there any evaluation ‘done at or about the time of that Cuban missile crisis? Mr. Colby. There was an evaluation done after the Bay of Pigs, a rather intensive Investigation Internal Security Branch Review of the activity and then the Cuban missile crisis came along shorts thereafter before anything very much "y ” ae - ra oO Photocopy from ; "V'( y ey CU 13" is _ @ . UN::4 Jig Sabu (2 . fed Gerald Ford Library eS rs ; a Wy NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 22
get going. Rhoreafter, “however ; a numer OL Programs were L 2 ‘conducted, which I am sure the Committse might want a general 5 summary of. I am just giving you one sort of a paragraph a summary of it, whkolh were aimed at putting economic pressure 5 on Giibs in the hopes that this would put pressure against him 6 and lead to its a@isorder and problems -there and, secondly, to ” encourage revolutions, sabotage and so fore, Exon within 8 Cuba through a variety of programs of propaganda, support of 9 exile movements, landing of teams on the coast, things of this 10 nature. . | rel Chairmen Church. The a@ifficult with this is, as . see it} 12 although, whet you say is true, once an agency begins tovensaset TT in assassination attempts the disease spreads. Your own 7” testimony shows it spread at least as far as the Dominican +“ Republic and we are going to get into closer questions on > xb other matters such as Lmumba and Chile 45 So that t-don't think this issue can be confined really * to the emergency that aia in fact exist between the US and Cuba and the seriousness of that emergency at the time. * 19 3 5 8 Mr. Colby. I agree with you, ir. Chairman. I am against 3 20 : ’$t and have been against it for a long time, but nonetheless M4 Bi. é I think in fairness to the people involved at that period I z! 22 d : think it is important to give total context. i 23 ‘ 5 Chairman Church. Yes. 3 24 : S Mx. Schwarz. * 25 Photocopy from ‘ x any, re) eee gre o 2 ny res , Gerald Ford Library "he Laue ee ott La leone i NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 23
an -. a. 10 il 12 13 14 15 16. 1? 18 L9 20 21 22 “23 24 25 to determine, assuning internally theCiA might have contemplate additional efforts to assassinate Castro after the Bay of Pigs, _—— the missile” crisis, it would not have acted unless direct): by the very highest authority, would it? Mr. Colby. That is not that. clear, Senater Hart. TI thin! the evidence we have is that the then Director was not are] of some of these activities and, therefore, one would have a very difficult time saying that it was pursuant to a specific authorization. It was consistent with an overall policy which was the sodint I was eegtng. but nonetheless I think the spe-~ cific action we cannot say was approved even within the Agency “at the bixeckor level. Senator Hart of Michigan. Is there any indication that the Nivienbor, who did know of at least an earlier attempt -- is there any indication that nel Lene the Bay of Pigs, or ' following the nissile crisis; hé explicityly brought the sub- ject up for review? - Mr. Colby. There is one documentary evidence that Nr. McCone dictated in 1967, I believe it was, in which-he vecount d -being informed of a meeting, of an inter-Agency meeting at which the subject of assassination was raised, and he made a particular vooint of indicating after the. meeting -- he was not at the meeting; I believe, but he heard of the meeting and he made a particular pGLSE of saving he disapproved of this Photocopy from 4EQD ( ¢ 2 Che bE “y Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 24
FTONG (res KUL) DeMUVUN WAND @ TAU AM CUP DEE wEhy Dehee HHMDIINIQLON, 0. CUS NW 50955 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and sa not agree with it, to the other membors —_— Hart..of uichdigan,.. Who was'at that meeting McCone heard about? | Mr. Colby. that was the eeievos wa were talking about at the last session. Mr, Schwarz, You brought up a new Jovomant which was Mr. McCone's dictation of recollection of ‘67. | Mr. Colby. Yes; I think you have that. Mr. gchwers. that 1 have not seen. . I know we do not have that. | | Mr. Colby. I am sorry, I thought you did. Mr. Schwarz. Could that be supplied? 'Mr. Colby. No proble ems, yes. This is our document and - a Church. Will you Supply the Committee with the document? Mr. Colby. Yes. - Excuse me,-I beg your pardon. He states in ‘67, at one of these meetings, about this time, I recall a suggestion made being made to liquidate top people in the Castro regime, | including Castro. I took immadiate exception to this suggestion stating that the subject was completely out ¢ bounds as far as | the US Government and CIA were concerned. The idea should not be discussed nor should not be discussed nor should it a N in any paper 3 $ “2 Senator Mondiale. Hr. Colby, the other dav when yeu are | ron ; . a « We an) "> <1: ec wae my Photocopy from DocId:32112724 Page 25
10 li “12° 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 23 24 29 .is-entitled to this information, that when it is pertinent tastified there was a momorandum that you gave us from I think ‘Mr. Osborn, which objected to a memorandum by General Landsdalc which referred to assassinations of political leaders, in a INemorandum regarding Operation Mongoose, which Was Cuba. And it referred to an attached memorandum which 1 think you said was the property of the FBI. . : 4 Mr. Colby. Of the National Security Council. Senator Mondale. NSC. . I gather you have a copy of that, but you don't feel authorized to let us see it? : Mr. Colby. I do have a copy of it. The understanding we hava — with the other agencies is that each of us gives our own material but we refer to the other agency for any documents ialoneing’ ts the other agency. Chadeitian Church. Well, it is very difficult for the Committee to operate that way. I think that —— the Committa: and as we proceed in our hearings from one subject to another, we ought toe be able to secure the information without having to go a executive channels. Mr. Colby. May I undertake to get the permission to give it to you? I will undertake to do this today. | Chairman Church. Any observations that the Committees wishes to maks on this kind of a problem? . a. FOR, Tt is the first time it Aas come ‘up. #9 ¢ ; : a ix = LD Ay Val oo | < ¢ rea on r> { berg we ‘ Bes co a tesbecs E =e Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 26
ot an 10 Li 12 15 14 15 17 18 LY 20 sere 21 > p2 23 OR aN meg mremnng te arse 24 and then they determine that it really isn't their document Senator Hart of Colorado. Is this the understanding we have had or not? Mr. Schwarz. It has been a total frustration to the staff as and I am very happy it has come up here because wea get chased around ths corner by one agency to another. It is called the "third agency ‘rule. It was intended to have nothing to do with Congressional hearings. Obviously, it had to do with declassificaticn to the public, and it. has happened to completelf, delay our ability to get information because we go at one agency or it mentioned somes other agency,-and then we have to go “ the — agency., | This is an example of how frustrating it is. Senator Mondale. ew tried to gat this document fron tha NSA? Nr. Colby. No; this particular document had just come up On Wednesday -- Senator Schweiker. Does the counsel have _ suggestions as en what he feels the Committee position should be in this area to enable him and staff to do an effective job? Mr. Schwarz. I think the Committee's position ought to _ that pertinent information should ba produced by any agency that possesses it, and if they wish to inform —_— sdaiiiiad thet thev are aoing it, then thet is theix busingss. But I think they should have ro oxeduce it if they possess it. s ied i a Y | ier i8 _ | © = watabals i Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 27
— wes erwe 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 9 20. 21 22 24 25 ' ‘ Senator Hondale. Apparentiy this meno fron Getoha reflers back ke the maeting about which Osborne memorandun A the Lansdale -- & Hr. Colby. The series of two or thres meetings at that time, yes. .. Ssnator Mondale. I think this is very important becaus« soparentiy this was a meeting at which ieNamara and Rusk — present, and apparently McCone was present, so we had all of the top principals. Mr. Colby. At least ons of them. Senator Mondale. And they discussed assassinations at that ineeting. And then Osborne cama back with is lege which is now part of the record. | Mr. Colby. I think it is Edwards in that case. Harvey, excuse Me. Senator Mondale. Harvey. He came back with 2 memo which the Director sugeLoer, objecting not to tha assassination but to putting it in writing. Chairman Church. Of course what we don't know is whether the assassination or subject-of assassination that came up at this meeting was conjecture or whether it had to do with a revelation of actual attempts thet haa involved the CIA or that it had to do with an Ongoing assassination effort by the Photocopy from _ : rn : bra me FRG Senator Mondale. Yes, _ Gerald Ford Library rea, > eS ; . iz 2 ESN TT qe MS bS bse ed + 3] i ©) te Zea bees 8 ‘3 Fe NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 28
n ot 10 11 12 13 14 15 16, Lv 18 19 20 21 22 25 cneienaa, Chazoh, A214" we know is the subject of assassina- tions apparently came up in the course of the meeting. : Mr. Colby. Mr. Chairman, as one of the agenci«s involved, if I could offer one explanation for the Third Agency Rule even in this ‘circumstance. And I.am particularly interested in this because sometimes our documents have material whose semetee rity is not apparent on _the face and we assume that this Will be handled in eer tats) compartmented channels, end. if it gets out of the compartment it might give problems that the individual at the other end wasn't aware of. That is the basis for the’ rule. The thought being go back and ask the originator, and he has a feeling for that and ecimeal make the —e case if something | ceeenemmeeaie | sensitive is involved Chairman Church. I would suggest, Mr. Colby, without binding tha Committee to a peacedant;, with respect to dealing with the Third Party Rule, that in this case es to -sscure from the NSA ~- Mr. Colby. I will. ig Chairman Church. -- its. permission to turn this particular document over to tha Committes so it may be made a part of thes« hearings. a Mr. Colby. I will endeavor to do that today, Mr. i RL Senator Morgan. I am going to inquire from Senator 1 - Mondalzu viet memorandum were you reading about McCone and ‘the group bein s prese::t? , a POP SECRET erate bods i Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 29
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 25 24 25 Senator Mondale. We have a Memorendun, it is = tight hie] J froi Mr. Harvey. Do I have the wrong ons? Yes, it is dated, I wili show it to you, in which he objects to a Chairman Church. What is the date of it? Senator Mondale. 14 August 1962. Senator Morgan. Do wa have that? Mr. Schwarz. It was shown to us on Wednesday, marked or deemed marked as part of the record, and rata ned to the CIA who returned it to us today. | Mr. Colby. I.have sneshae copy of it. Senator Mondale. It refars to a Meeting in Mr. Rusk's office at which presumably McNemara and Rusk, I gather from the later Memo, and McCone were praesent, and it says this. ne "I called Lansdale's offices and in his absence pointi@-oxs | to Frank Head the inadmissibility and stupidity of putting this typs of comment in writing in a document. The words he objsctad to wers including liquidation of leaders. I advised him as far as CIA was concerned we would write no document pertaining to this and would participate in no open meeting to discuss i" I read that to mean wea will go ahead and do it but we don't want anything in writing and don't want to be in 2 Meeting Where it is going to link. That’ ca%es & lot of sens3. Ne living politicicn wants to be associated with an gee eV ar. ‘ ) TMM RY CV yp wen _— Photocopy from \j Ved oF eas ne eb TiN ”, Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 30
SE aS SCREENERS ARAM FIO eich - ewe ae | if he wants someone assassinated, I think that is common sense. That is why a think. these documents are so crucial. ~ . Chairman Church. Of course they are crucial and we must have them. | The ambiguity, however, that we have yet to clear up is in the third paragraph, Senator Hondale, where the memorandum reads the guestion of assassination, particularly of Fide>———~_ Castro, was brought up by Secretary McNamara at a meeting of the special group augmented in | Secretary Rusk's office in 10 August. It was the obvious consensus at that meeting, in 11 answer to a ‘gemment by ‘Nr. Ed Murrow, that this is not a subjec le ‘which has ‘been made a matter-of official record, the subject 13 being the question of assassination, Now, that leaves us still without any documentary proot is that it was revealed at this Meeting that the CIA was in fact 16 engaged in an effort to assassinate, 1? Senator Mondale. Was Lansdale working for the CIA at 18 this tina? . 19 Mr. Colby. Pardon? 20 Senator Mondale. Was General Lansdale working for the “1! CIA at this time? 220 Mr. Colby. General tansdale was Assistant to the Secretary of Defense, not CIA, at ad time. Paty . : i "0 24 Senator Mondale. Nad Lansdale been with the CIA? = ‘ = 25 Mr. Colby. Hoa was with cra in about 1952 to about Mss, 3 v a we Gc o fon prertsy omy : S if NET aNS " il Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library or] ton HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 31
10 bbs l2 13 14 15 16 17 28.“ 19 “20 21° 22 23 24 2s more or less. Senator Mondale. During the Philippines--- Mr. Colby. During the Philippines and in Victnem at that time. Then he left CIA. lle was a Yegular Air Force offSeer all this ina but he was assigned to CIA for the time he was in the Philippines and the time he was in Vietnan, fe then reverted to the Air Force and was an Assistant to the Secrataxy of Defense miki about 1964 or 1965, ‘Then he went. out to Vietnam where he was an Assistant to the Ambassador, se working for CIA. We were associated with him but he was not a CIA officer at that time. Senator Mondale. Do we know What his job at the Pentagon was? | . Mr. Colby. Te, wee Assistant to the Secretary of Defense. I can't tell you exactly what the job was entitled but | he was active in the Secretary of Defensa's participation in a variety, you might call it a 40 Committee type of operation, I think he probably was most oe of the various 40 Committee >- Senator Mondale. If he were involved with that, ha would heve close tiatoon’ with aii members of the 40 Comnittee, including the CIA? Mr. Colby. Yes, sir.. Chairman Church. I would iia to call youre attention also to this Sentence. Photocupy fron a ere Po Library oom EQ we) Pi Vrepe Ve ey Gerald Ford i Kat {;? rhe aK. Le. i . u NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Paye 32
I ‘took careful notes on the comments at this mesting on 2 . bs . . ae this point and the special group augmented in not expecting any written comments or study on this point. _ Thare, again, the ambiguity. It is within the range of the possible that one of the 6 ‘es . ; . ongoing efforts of the CIA was in fact raised and discussed. a It is also possible that the question of assassinating 8 ; Fidel Castro -- Y Senator Mondale. Do we have those notes? 10 Chairman Church. I was going to ask that. ii And thet it was agreed that no study or review of this 12 should besub bmitted as an abstract matter, should be submitted 15 1 sn written form. 14 So we are left without’ an answer to this question. 16 ceteaian. with RP EC to the notes that are referred to 16 here, can you tell us  MRSENEE those notes exist? 17 ' Mr. Colby. "I don't know of any, Mr. Chairman. 18 Chairman Church. He said he took careful notes. 19. . Mr. Colby. I don't know.of any but I certainly will Ilcok. . _- | a 1 20 Mr. Breckinridge. When we reviewed this problem in 1967 | all. os ae we found no such notas S 7X jx a t 2 Re Senator Huddleston. Let me inject a thought or two eid 4 25 | his line. ; 24 It seers to me like ons of the things we axa going *¢ hav> 25 to dstexine as we go clot is as to what extent there Was 0. gue i! ; Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library . - NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 33
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 there is a standard operating orocedurs of your Agency an . effort not to make notes, an effort. for certain individuals ~ not to have certain knowledge by design. For instance, I was reading your menorendun here dated ~ae 1 June 1973 in which you are reporting on a meating that occur: You make a point to say phan you briefed someone exaiie. Tha word “orally” is in there -- assuming thet for the purpossa somzone should know that you did not put anytttee in writing or you did not give'hin a written report. -You also say that I persons iy managed to avoid gaining any knowledge of what precise actions were taken. I think a reasonable inference there is that thers is a {t % sis s ard oe én deliberate on your part here -- ‘and maybe th in Operating procedure ~~ for you not to get specific information (b . : 2 ne . , so that you always will be in the position of not knowing soma- thing. Mr. Colby. I don't recognize tha reference. Certainly, 7 - to commit ‘to writing. Saray, There is a great deal of effort made by us to what w call compartment information so that.it is known only to certain people and not known to others. The compartment is still to be open at the top, however. Thers are things that ft purposely try not to know. I don't want to know the name Of an agent in the Soviet Union. I have Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library IA > Tes as 2 oe] tiny fov LESSEN ba HW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 34
10 iz 12 13 15 16. 17 18 20 21 23: 19. the so-called 694 pages. \ absolutely no desire to learn his name because I don't need to know that information. Senator Huddleston. iferes we are referring to action in this case and not individuals. Mr, Colby. Z don't recognize that. I could perhaps _ it in context if I could see the memorandum. Mr, Schwarz, Perhaps we ought to mark that memorandun. Senator Huddleston. Memorandum for Mr. William . Collhy. I thought it was Be Mr, Colby. Mr. Colby. tT am sorry. Senator Huddleston. Someone within the Agency apparently is informing you-about sométhing and the subject is special activities. I don't see a name on it. It has information in it about both the President and Attorney General being involved in briefings. Mr. Schwarz. I think for acmmmlenee of reference we ought to mark it as an exhibit. Let!s number as today's number, and we have put in the -~ three charts so far, and wa will call this, which is the“ 1 Nes June 1973 memorandum for Mr. William E. Colby, subject special activities, from stamped pages 09157, 00458, and 00459, of 2° a 7 _ (The Gocument above taGattea to was Marked Colby Exhibit to. 4.) Mr. Colby. 1 recognize what that is, Senator Muddleston. | Sy aS | Sela rers , 2k ban ay "2 Photocopy from . ” Gerald Ford Library ED NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 35
i do Ca ee ered Oo 10 hie 13 ee Re 14 15 16 i? 18 19 20 21 he ee rr 22 25 wet 09 wo mesy 12 ‘The. reason it was addressed to William Be Colby is we were going through that period in the middle of 1973 where I I guess, Director of Operations but had been a was technically, nominated to kecome Director. this was the kind of -thing that normally would be addressed to the Director but we had an Acting piteckor, General Walters, but it was pretty clear I was responsibla for making the machinery run. and we had a lot of things around the Agency addressed to me and signed by me, I believe this follows a conversation I had with a Mr. Walter Elder, who was an Assistant to Mr. John McCone -- he was Executive Assistant when he.was Director -- I think Mr. Elder told - that there were certain things that he knew of in the ickereuna that related to this effort of identifying various questionable echindaion of — Agency, and I asked him to go write them down so we could get them into the Inspector Ganeral's report. Senator Nuddlsston. Tha Only question I raise, I dou te want to gat off into the contents of a particular memorandun, but the context with the area you ware pursuing, just whether cop snk whedon’? pespelitves procedure would require at times there — deliberate avoidance by certain people in the Agency of facts and whether or not there is a great body of decisions that are made om ia cian without anything writte Gower, $0 that trere would never be any documentary oo Poe tox of it? jo, 2 aM w , : Ls = Photocopy from aL Pa ice ny ae rou "yt ser a ; f : = i Nic al 4 Je3k wehbe Abs (. rf : Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 36
w ui > an 10 Ld. 120 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 23 24 clear that.the assassination story was essentially kept ort Mr. Colby. Well, I think that you certainly can say that there fs an avoidance by a lot of people of learning things ~ that they are not authorized to know. I mean the more loyal in a sense of our employees, say hak they have authority to know what it ‘going on in, say, Cuba, they don’t have a right to know what is going on in, sav, china, enal they rather carefully keep themselves from learning what is going on in China. I think that is a prevalence. I think the question you are asking, however, is whether we are trying to keep activities off of Paper and it is pratty the — . : And I would think that is about the only one. No, the drug thing. I assume some of that wae — off of paper? Mr. Breckinridge. Yas. Mr. Colby. fhe lesson that I’ have frequently given to my colleagues in “ens bureaucracy is that however hard you try to keep it off of paper, you will not succeed in a bureaucracy, somebody will write it down and, therefore, it is . totally feckless exercise to pretend that you can keep it secret by sot writing it down. But the fact is there — situations in which a conscious effort was =k in the past to keep ching off the record. | Senator Huddleston. -To sum up, you, as Director, with th: exception of individual names for which there would be no, a. Fag ’ “WS a ae 3 Oty’ . ; is ren ChEtS *t % iy Photocopy from z Gerald Ford Library as <3 ¢ NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 37
10 11 13 14 15 16. 17 18 19 20 21 24 25 particular value to you and no advantage to you knowing, except for that you make no deliberate effort not to know about ~ operations? ". Mr. Colby. No. As a matter of fact, I take the oprosit: position, Senator. I say that to my subordinates and have reiterated a number of time ae f edinee be subjected to Surpr isa. You have got to-let me know the things I ought to know, And I have undertaken the same obligations to my oversight comnittes for example, that I am responsible getting to them before they hear about‘it.some place else. Senator Huddleston. The other is in this inauiry. Can the Committee expect that every effort will be mada to supply to us information about VERions things, even Chen they may not be written down? Mr. Colby. You have my ‘commitment to that effect. Senator Huddleston. Going further and looking through the. files for notes and documents? Mr. pony It is my hope 3, Senator, that I can help you on this investigation nother than defending myself against you. Senator Had LeSkoh. That is all. Mr. Colby. That is what I would like te have the relation- ship, that I am trying to help vou @o this investigation. Chairman Church. We want such a relationship end we” are trying to work it out. - oy Mr. Colby. I know you ao. Yow have sail it a number cf Pe C25 reer Photocopy from EQ Oaks el J Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 38 =<s
N 10 Ae | 12° 13 14 ‘4s 16 1? 18 19 20 al 4 22 23 24 25 tics and I agres sada you. Shademen Church. Now, Senator Mondale. ; Senator Mondale. Ths denotandun trom John McCone that — we received this morning, dated 14 April, 1967, is eddressed to the Director. Wes McCone an employee or related with the CIA at thet time? Mr. Colby. No, he left in 1965. Senator Mondale. - So this was a memorandum from a person no longer with the CIA, as former ninecter to the current Director, which begins Hen memorandum can be located covering the August, '62 meeting." -That is the oné that earlier — the question of xcoustinenton was Mokoonedl, However, it is highly probable that one exists. Now, I would like all documentation, records, and notes that bear on the question of what McCone was referring to, ecause I get the impression thet the then Director, Mr. Helms - ” iti Colby. Yes. | Sanator Mondale. -~ was reviewing the question of documenta tions and records affecting that meeting, ox the question of assassination, and I think we nee@ to know what transpired, what was haopening then, what kind of responses he received. Mr. Colby. We will'ceshainly give you thet. I can give arr) a> 7 SAS 7s i te) G pe] Gu fa bf] ol Q wv 6 ~ eu 4 cr’ } ¢ ¢) >} . i i cw i JI Qe ee es ° ee Qaeda “yugys ——-~ Photocopy from HW 50955 Docla:32119¢tald Fpagcibyary
eS ee N ~_ oa an ost Ot % © 10 “4 12° 13 14 15 16 17 18 19. 20 21 22 23 24 25 This exercise stemmed from tha ravelation in Jack Anderson's columns, I belisve, of our relationship with the Mafia figures at that time. TALS then generated the request | to Mr. Breckinridge to do an Ins sector General's report of this whole subject, which he did, and ‘which we will cartainly make available to this Committee. , In the course of it, and with the etond okey, tr. NcCone, who does maintain an Occasional contact with the Agency, he is a friend of it and an ex-Director -- I see him every now and again and try to sort of keep him up with what is going On in general terms without getting into political or sensitive Matters or anything -- but‘he does maintain this contact and I am sure that somebody made contact with him or he mads contact with the Agency about the Jack Anderson column, and that then generated this particular memorandun. Senator Mondale. And there was an Inspector General's ; imamneoee study done at that time? Ni casncnacngaes Mr. Colby. Yes, sir; and you will get access to Se - ~ Senator Mondale. Can we have documentation as to how it was originated and the response to what was done? Chaimnan Church. Yes, we should have chat information. And I might say that you are aware, no doubt, that charges have been made that documents have been destroyed in the CIA which may have been connected with the general subject of CIA .. iw Ks OR ™ ° ° Py * oN c iuvolvanent in assassination efforts. ig’ 2 irae . fe * 5) Photocopy from ' Lang , [> § Ee My ia p ey _ wee Gerald Ford Library ©“ “’ “ ela Sinaammeat™ NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 40
1 , ; Can you tell this Comaittee whether, to your. knowledge, 2 | documents have been destroyed? Ps) a . ; Mr. Breckinridge. I think we can talk in terms of what 4 : we know is there. 5 ; ; . 5 ; On the Castro assassination, the involvement with the 7+ ; . Soca | . Mafia, there were a few memoranda in the Office of Security, 7 and I think you. have copies of Enea. - On the second phase ei that, there are practically no 9 records at all and our investigation at that time was made 10 * Pcie : entirely on interviews. i ie _ Based ‘entirely on interviews, an attempt to reconstruct 12 that activity. . ° 15 ‘The final action which involved a Cuban by the name of 141] cupsila -- 15 Mr. Colby. This was ths Cuban major we discussed last 16 time. 17 * Mr. Breckinridge. Started in the minds of tha people 18 'who wsre-involved, was an ahem £0 generate an internal 19 political action, revolt, and tha records are very full because 20 there was no attention on the part of tha peodle who were 21 involved ak. thine time that that would be an assassination in : 22 _ tha Sensé that the original work with the Mafia was éngaged in 25 and there is a full record. and that exists today. . i ' 24 In the case of the Dominican Renublic, “his developed, tatox. ie OAe | 5 ae fo D 25 Let mo finish. - oy ix =| . . |x R iw * eta hy Chea ry fas "> a i ve i i ' \ S I i/ i eo) uae i he. ont d Photocopy from "sey gol Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 41
a . oO » ol ro) 10 ak 12 13 14 15 16. L7 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 .time and they were retained. It was in the period of the I will go back to the Cubella case. - In the instance of the Dominican Republic, ena record was vury full then-and it is still very full today. I am Certain that record is complete. Again, in the minds of the people who were involved, they drew a line bstween the support eer gave to the coup group and conscious association with essassination as such. Those records are complete and those records were developed eat the Mafia was involved where psovle knew the purpose was assassine- tion. F | The records:are praasiaa ry non-existent and I believe they never existed. Harvey, who conducted the second phase of that, at the time of our investigation had a handful of eryptic notes that only he could interpret. Wa couldn't interpret them. And it is my understanding that those notes no longer exist. Thev _— retained by him and he brought them in at the time that we were questioning him. He was then on sick leave prior ‘to. retireaent. Those notes ware totally unrevealing. wT tented that they were then. fy \\ There were none in ths Castro affair except the restits §. - -_ of our investigztion invslving the Mafia. The Cukella case is tuéil.. That case did progress to tha waey, & Photocopy from : |; “ws if” edarenbida ll PY Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 42
HW 50955 » v1 10 11 12. 13 14 15 16. ae 18 19 20 21 22 235 24 25 pORaE that On the very day of President Kennedy's assassination a man was meeting with Cubella in Paris, and in response to the time of the investigation We understood ha ausauwen but I have since been told he did not accept. It was a ballpoint Pen converted into a syringz for injecting poison. Subsequently, arms were handed to Cubslla by a Cuban refugee in Madrid, in the very early part of 1965, and two. catches were put down by boats off Cuba for Cubella. I think he may haves macovered one sf chess but not: the other. The records on that are pmeainay complste, So, generally Speaking, on those things where ene Agency was involved, —_ the exception of the association with the Mafia, where from the beginning dine dak ent was assassination, the rawonés are re and I think chek if pa govla look at those they will find this is so. - Cubella's request offered him an assassination device that at Mr. Schwarz. Is the understanding that all recorcs dealing , pdliaaneannes (with this subject, whether they are in Inspector Goyeres, reports or underlying documents, would be producad for our inspection? : fo 98D 7 (= e © Mr. Colby. Yes. _. \“S \ ‘i aT X ° ‘ . ~N If I may ask Only the Committee's consideration of the. normal treatment of compartmentation and some discussion of possidly some individual names in it that we would hope that we might be able to handle Very. private ely, or necessary, or even i seas Gerald Ford Library DocId:32112724 Page 43
laave ont, Chon Hewes Church. Very well. Now, Mr. Schwarz. Hr. Schwarz. Just to tidy Let m2 mark as Comnittes 10 Mr. Schwarz. Might I coma il and we will look at it tcegether? 12. Mr. Colby. -I havea copy. 13 14 at the Agency, was he? 15 Exhi ibit 5 the John A, MoCo to the Director mamorandum of Avril 14, ‘Mr. Schwarz. ‘As of April, 1967, But the normel Procedures, up One matter, ee 1967. . (The above mentioned document was marked as Colby Exhibit No. 5 for identification.) down with you on this document Mr. MecCone was no longer ~ his position with LITT, ox Mr, Colby. No. 16 Mr. sehwaiie, Yas he-then in 17 did. hs have sone other posittnay 18 Mr. Colby. I really den: know. 19 Mr. Schwarz. In any evant 20 Mr. Colby. ~ That is right. 21 Mr. Schwarz. The thing thet f2 0 randun, with respect to the state One, wnich raads zs follows: he wasn’t et tha Agency? is curious about this meno-~ or the record, is paragraph 24 "No Mamorandun can be losctaa covering “ha Auerst 19, 196 25 howavar, it is hignly prohabls the+ One exis*+s," aT - : ° - no = U, 5 Photocopy from ‘ ES ts [> ss r - y eS rh oS % Gerald Ford Library cd Rae settee Ved aa 2) NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 44
Or 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Be 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 Yow, Hr. HMcCone, was not in the Agency, is writing a ° . bi - , Memorandum to the Director, who was in the Aqdancy, referring “+ a search by or on behalf of Mr. McCons. Now, did Mr. McCon2 have documents outsida the Agency, or how do you explain? ; Hr. Colby. TI don't believe he has any documents. I have never asked him. But I don't belisve he has any documents cutside of thse Agency. Mr. Knoche. tr. NMcCone wrote Me that memorandum while cx Agency premises. & was.during a visit to the Agancy ang he had the benefit of his ex-stalf assistant, Mr. Walter Elder, ittle research in this connection. | helping him in doing a Mr. Colby. All that says is that they hadn't locatad it by then. I think we hava located some since that tims Mr. Schwarz. Pickinc up Om a@ question of Ssnator Nart 3 evaluations {u = 5 ksd you whether there had b of -Michigan, hs in.connection with the Cuban missile crisis, and then you testified adout svaluations post-Bay of Pigs and rather continusl & those were G ct cr iY] Pay o - aveluations of the subject of Cuba. 8B not evaluations or re-evaluations of the subject of assassinati wn, Mx. Colby. All I can say is I think that question is 77 ¥; Bh, a little obscure. _ 12 Pigs failure there was an_ tody I know that after the. Bay o that a discussion of that we vars then to @o and a progren wis | , Esty 5 FS 1 SIES EG = - eosteeh SL ii Photocopy from ° | HW 50955 Docold:32112724 Page 45 Gerald Ford Library
Prone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL - 410 Frese Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 NW 50955 Ot 10 a 12 13 14°: 15 16 47 18 5 20 21 22. 23 24 25 \ by the President in order to CGatarmine what had gone wrong and devzlopsd. And I am speaking at second hand here. Buta progr: was develop2d of keeping soms economic Ppressurz on Cuba, and ~ that was a national policy, not just a CIA -- keaving an economic pressure on Cuba and continuing to supvort the various elements which might eventually lead to a change in the Cuban government through soma overthrow or otherwise. I think soms propoganda programs were kept up, some exile ctivities were kept up, some training of tzams to be infil- trated into Cuba werg kept uD, some sabotage onserations were continued. And those continued over the following several | months. . s Right after the 1962 missile crisis.-- I cannot identify right offhand hers any particular review of that -- but \ . a know that that was a subject of 40 Comnittse — at various times. Whether that include assassination or not I cannot say. My guess, as T ear is that if John NeCone didn't know about it, it was not covered in thoss discussions hecause it - would _ very hard to cover them without nae being involved. Chairman Church. Ars you teliing us tha the much publi- cized investigation of the CIA, which teok place following tha Bay of Pigs fiasco, and as I remember this review was ordered T Way, and it was a matter of great urgency and impoxtancs te the — . - / Photocopy from se sses cers apy pesie : ie Gerald Ford Library J ur i adie tus bse a : ee ce ee re me ere rr er re ee cy ce epee NS WANs DocId:32112724 Page 46
© 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21° 22 235 R4 25 | bésn denied to u j government at that tima -- are you telling us thet in the _—, ; course of that review the Agency's involvemsnt in the asséSina- tion efforts against Castro never — to light? Mr. Colby. I< just don't know, Mr. Chairman. That is the answer I heve to give _— I do not know. I believe the Inspector General report after the Bay of Pigs does not mention it, does it? Mr. Breckinridge. No. Mr. Colby. The report of ths Comnittsa that looked into it, General Taylor, and the Rise Shey Gensral and somebody else s- there Were three — of it -- Maybs ix. Dulles. I don't beliava that report Mantioned it. | Chairman Church. Do we have a copy of tha Taylor Rivort? Mr. Colby. I think it hes been made available. Or is that a third agency problen? Mr. Schwarz. That is another frustration. That ons has “on the theory that it is part of the Kennedy “a. Library and, tharefors, wa hava to go through another channel _ to get that. Does the CIA have a copy of the Taylor Report? Mr. Colby. I gouty believes we do. I know we looked for couple of ysars ago end at that time I was told we didn't fe tt ry heve it. een eS I hate to say here ureter oath wade not hav: on, but T know IT tried to get ahold of it an} was told a coupls-of ysars . . rx ("RP Me dak 0 BEA eis Bai Q ) Tir U wor LG Ga f Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 47
1 ago that we couldn't have ons. But there are lots of drawers in those safes in that building. ‘ ~ : 5 ; ; ; : T ain not trying to evade the question. I am trying to o a . ‘ . say I don't think we have one. It could be. 5 ’ . . : ’ We have a copy of our owm Inspector General's report / ‘ 6 , . . «ff at that tims. \ 7 , a F # Mr. Schwarz. Does that contain any mention of the 8 _— _— assassination subjsct? 9 Mr. Colby. No, it does not, 10 Mr. Schwarz. Do you find it puzzling.that-the CIA doesn't 11 have a copy.of tha report designed to review its activities . 12 in the Bay of Pigs, a report that led to substantial Presidential 15 changes in tha instructions with respect to your jurisdiction? 14 Mr. Colby. Yes. 15 ir. Schwarz. I msan, it is an important document -- 16 Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. . - | i? - Mr. Schwarz. ~- relating to the CIA. 18 Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. eal Senator Schweiker. I wonder if Mr. iicCone has a copy? 20 Mx. Colby. I would doubt it. el ) Senator eo That is why he cama in, because of thet ‘ 22 Mr. Colby. Roughly, yes. | es Chairman Church. In tne course of “the investigation that 24 took placs, this investication that led to the Taylor Report, 25 thas tock places in ths a SARE of the Bey of pigs? © | Photocopy from i a tt nae . oo Es | Gerald Ford Library io li Vos x Jas" eat bulia ‘|; \ NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 48
Were records kspt, that is to say -- eee 2 ” , Mr’. Colby. O£ contributions? Chairmen Church. No. Did the investigation involve 4 ae ; writtsn records? Did it involve tas timony taken under oath 5 . ° ’ > and transcribed? Is thsare raw matarial relating to that 6 . ‘ ‘ ‘ -| investigation to which this Commit — could gain access? 7 ‘ , Mr. Colby. I don't know the answer to the question, Mr. 8 ‘ — Chairman. Maybe Mr. Breckinridge can help us. Mr. Breckinridge. I am not familiar with that study. 10 Iam familiar with thse approach thet was Saran at tha time q1 within our organization when the Inspector General.-- I was 12 not involved.in that study but I have heard it discuss2d 13 re - 1 gf how they approached it. 14 Their understanding of the Bay of Pigs problem was the 16 overall invasion plan and organization for that an@ concentrete3 17 By way of explanation for the omission of reference to 18 the assassinations, so few people knew about it, and I think - 19 it came te no One's attention -- simply did not disccver it 20) at that time. And it may not have been by way of explanation, 21 not a justification. It may not have bean associated in tha 22 || sainds of the peopls who did know about it with the inquiry 23 into thea military operation. e4 rr. Schwarz. fir. Biss2l knew abont it and he was certainly . F SON 25 ha main architect of the Bay of Pigs; xright? ge . 2 Photocopy from “hb uy a § Sy n ae i. Ne ts y . . * yf Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 49
’ i ' ' ' ’ + . * ' . : ? : s WARD & PAUL A10 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Breckinridge. Right. + lsast the records Wwe fe) Mr. Schwarz. And Mr. Dulles, put in on Wednesday, knew about it and he was substantially involved in ths Bay of Pigs. Those gentlansa surely vould have been questioned by General Taylor and Attornay General Kennedy - Mr. Colby. (Certainly, yes. But again, if tha focus was on thea cai? Phones operation, it might have bean thet Whats other operation was not involved in it. Mr. Schwarz. Tha racord further shows that on May 7, 1962, a nenaiing was held with Attorney General Robert Kennedy in which the contemporansous docuiient describing that meeting indicat (vo s that he was not eid thet there was a continuing and ongoing opzration, but rather was told of something which a was not called an assassination hut was called 2 projec:. He a was told of something which was referred to in the past t= ct hat right? is ad Mr. Colby. It was in ths, past cense. Whether there. wes eny other discussion in that Meeting on this subject we just don't know. Mr. Breckinridge. I think I can interpret what happened. hs people who brisfed Attorney Ganeral Kennedy are the ones who knew about what wa call ths First phase of the operetic ° . ‘ . , “ . FO With the Wafia. J Photocopy from AAT CLP PRS in =} ci : ‘ ae ay Gerald Ford Library O) orate La . . a NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 50
10 14. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Bi 22 2% 24 25 <_— “a a ie Te | Colonel Edwards, who was Director of Security, under whose supervision the first portion of that activity was carrizd On, had withdrawn from-.wit, The operation, when it was reactivated later, was reactivate eee . On a conpartmented basis, and Colonel Edwards did not know about it. . . . ' Mr. salen. RVG though it a to involve ‘the Mafie until early 1963? Mr. Breckinridge. That is correct. Colonel Edwards longer knew what was going on. So when he brisfed the Attorney General he did not know @ek thid escond operation, this reansivecton of the operation that HA AGdigveanlie run under his responsibility -- he did not know that it was ongoing. Mr. Schwarz. Who was responsible for the selection of Colonel Edwards and Gensral Counsz2l Houston as being the persons who would go to brisf Attorney ceneen) Xannedy? Mr. Breckinridge. I am not sure I know that. hr. Schwarz. It would lite 22n somgone of higher authority within the CIA; is that correct? Mr. Breckinridge. Wa have tried to daterming. Nr. Houston, if I understand it, fasls that he would not have dons this unless he thought the Director knew. Mr. Schwerz. Knew what? Mr. Breckinxidge. Xnew that hs was going to do this. But | - or. z Pa On . # . “ . qs . he did not talk to the Director about it, . fe ‘ ‘ . ! ak “Hy Photocop from a Fad Vi | c MT Ae t 3 cNee Ls ° NW 50955 Docld: 344d, 2i¢ for Afar? :
10 LL 12 “13 14 15 16° 17 18 19 20 “R21 22 23 25 I gather that it is not all that clear in Colonel Lawards' . . ither at this point in time. Mr. Schwarz. ‘So someone selacted these persons to go and brief Attorney General Kennedy, number one. . . Number wo, vhay did not know the plot for asséssinztion was ongoing, although in Sack. it was? hx. Breckinridge. Correct. Mr. Schwarz. Number three: therefore, Attorney — RT | ssion that whatever was going on Kennedy was given the impr was Over; is that correct? _iix. Breckinridgs. I think that is correct as I reconstruc: it. ° eo . Mr. Schwarz. Can we determine then who was responsible for. selecting those persons to brief Attorney General Karnnesdy, instsad of including in the group other parsons who knew that the Mafia part of the assassination attempt was ongoing? Mr. Breckinridgy. I don't think that we can now. As Zi sav, there is no weit ten racord. ~ Mr. Schwarz. Who could it have been? Who was in a higher position of authority, in a position to make a decision ie) as to who should brief Attorney General Kennedy? a Mr. Breckinridg2. I would assume that Mr. Bissel could have. : , ‘ Hr. Selwaxt. Wes he still in the Agency ia Mav of 1°62? x qe Fah Mr. Breckridqe. TU don' know. T think he may have. ‘ re vA ss HARD GA oa Photocopy from ae NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 52 Gerald Ford Library
left by than. 2 . May I reconstruct becauss much of my understanding is bas: > on my analysis of what happened and not on clear facts . the FBI approached Colonel Edwards when their invastigation 6 and ineidens fe Las Vegas eventually precuced his name, and “ his conversations, I think, were with the General Counsel at ’ that time. I cannot reconstruct’ beyond that so I really can't = give you an answer to the specific. question. But the a 7 came fron the FP38I. Colonel Edwards and Mr. Houston discuss:2 10 it. Mr. Houston, I have been told, balisves that the Director A must have — 12 - * Mr. Schwarz. Which Director are wae talking 2bout? 13 ‘Mr. Breckinridgs. Whoever id Director was at that time? 14 Mr. Colby. By that time. 15 Mr. oeivest. Of what agency? 16: Mr. Colby. CIA. That would have been McCone. 17 — Breckinridg2. We overated on the assumption that tir. ae HcCons knew. 19 Mr. Schwarz. Knew what? 20 Mr. preckinridgs. Knew that they a to bris£ the | el Attorney Gsneral. 22 | Hr. Schwarz. About? ts 23 Hr. Breckinridge. The record on this is very unsetis*ectery 240 asd I cantt clarify i+ for you bacauss: we have baen trying *9 es find out when Mr. NcCone first learned of it after tha face ; sf; a “eZ % Photocopy from tS onan 7h mes ‘ ve; a, NW 50955 DocId: aA forg Librayy,
as it was. When people discussed this with one another, what thay ~ conveysd to ons another eccurately as to what it was they were + ener Le wns orm eve Jiscussing, tha record is simply not clear and I don't think that We can reconstruct thae+ satisfactorily today. Mr. Schwarz. Is Mr. Edwards still aliva? ‘ Mr. Breckinridge. Yes,-he is, Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Houston is still alive and is in Washirg- ton, D.C.? Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir.. Mr. Schwarz. Me, MeConz is stiil @élive and is in -- ‘Mr. €olby. .Californiz. ‘Mr. Schwarz. Was Mr. Helms the Successor to Mr. Bisssel? Mr. Colby. Yss, sir. . Mr, Schwarz. Well, let's lsava‘a Place in the record where wa will insert it was sither Mr. iicCone or Mr. Bissel who had the job of Deputy Director 'for Plans in Mey, 1952, Mr. Colby. It certainly wasn't Mr. McCone. - Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Helms or Mr. Bissel? Mr. Colby. Yes. Photocopy from . Libra . . Pee Gerald Ford Library . y ; FOR Crary racy : io be rakes ba ts i HW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 54
+ eevee at ee ewes oe Chairman Church. You See, the state of the recorgsi 2 now subgests: a cover-up, another cover-up. It sugquens Phat | = thosa who were selected by the higher authority in CIA to 4 brief thse Attorney General had knowledge limited to ay attenns ° on the life of Castro that hed been concluded. | i It further suggests that they had no knowledge of continuing , efforts then underway, even though presumably their suneriors 8 did hava such knowledge. This leaves the Attorney General ir 9 a position of being told about the _— program and not basing 10 | go1a abcout.the present program, and we know that he later said 11. to certain assistants of his that he had put a stop 0 12 assassination attempts On Pidel Castro and hs may have bean 13 left with the impression, as a result of this meetinc , that 14 there were no further attempts. Hs may have said he wanted no 15 further eee. We don't know. But clearly he was rot tole 16 fdinas thers Wers further attempts then underway. 1? Senator Morgan. Were we told yesterday or the Gay befors 18 yesterday that he knew of the Cuban majors' opsaration? 19 Mr. Schwarz. We were not told that. 20 Mr, Breckinridge. I canno+ clerif y the question completely a1 but I can introduce a little bit more. ee ‘When the discussion occurred Mr. Houston did go andy ERLE RY = cS 25 || with General Carter, who wae Shee the Deputy Diractor 7 a 24 Mx. Schwarz. ‘Which discussion are we talkirg anal 25 Hr. eo aiseussion about going to the Attorney Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Paye 55
YSnsu a: se) 10 “4 12 “413 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 22 23 24 25 General. To, go back, how tho question arose, and it gces far itigid, John Roselli, who was the Chicago member of the Mafia who ee the intiseauexton of Giancana to the Cuban syndicate head, threugh.whom thay initially tried to run this operation -- Giancana had a personal love affair with a well know entertaixer who was then in Las Vegas, and she was sispected by him of then having an affair with another well known entertainer. Giancana went.to Robert Maheu, through whom ‘these intreduc- tions were first made _ Mr. Sune. Introduced to the Mafia personnel? Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. | Mr. Colby. Between CIA and the Mafia. Mr. Breckinridge. And asked Maheu toarrange to have the room of the male entertainer in Las Veaas bugged. They hired a.private eetective who then did this. The roommate stumbled on the equipment, ‘the private detective Was arrested, and the FBI investigative trail led from the privates detective to Maheu to GiZncana and eventually to CIA. Giancana had insisted that Maheu help him because he kad helped Maheu with the introduction to the head of the Cuban syndicate, and Maheu had then. agreed to get a private ditécteiste to do it, So this arose in the ccntext of a domestic violation of wiretapping laws and the PBI was investigating it on that basis. Because she trail lec to Siiancena andltselli, who Wats a7 : 3% - . A : . ¢ x 7p ary €2 | ra: i “4 nn rvs Photocopy from ees - at Te QtsaNe ttt qo Gerald Ford Library E ape NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 56
5 > nn 10 ka | 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 Le, 20 21 22 23 24 25 third inember of the Syndicate involved in this, both nf whom were high on the FBI list, as they progressed towards developing a prosecution, they came to Colonel Edwards, the FBI did, and said what is your opstiton on this, The position of the Agency as stated by Colonel Edwards was we did not want them prosecuted because it would expose what he understood to be this Operation, | and I guess the time sequence gets a little fuzzy in my mind. Mr, Schwarz. Did he tell the Director of the FBI the nature of the operation, or simply he told him it would concern Some sensitive matter? Mr. Breckinridge. He told him it was an intelligence operation in country, and the Mafia was being used for that purpose. So in the discussions as it progressed, it dealt with the wiretap prosecution. Colonel Edwards in discussing it with us in 1967, according to our notes, said that they briefed the Attorney General all the way, _— at — time Colonel Edwards, I think by the time they did it, Colonel Edwards thought; it was over. So the Sehomaiey General and the FBI were not told the cimpidte story. Mr. Schwarz. They weren't told the most important part of tho Story, and that was that it was continuing. Mr. Breckinridge, They didn't know that, that is correct. Chairman Church. So you have here two violations of law. Apart from what was told to ‘the Att -orney General, you have two violations of lav. Onc, the wigenap, it was an Aliegal ° peEation >" ir Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library FRY ie Crag ery yy ‘oh sw ais Noa > a HW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 57
ve] 10 11 12 135 14. 15 16 Ee 18 19 20 21 ot 22 25 24 We may have three. Sccond, it is certainly an activity that the baaie iwe prohibited CIA from engaging in, domestic activity. ” Mr. Colby. CIA was not involved in the wiretap. Chairman Church. As I understand it, the CIA was involved because it engaged a private -- Mr. Breckinridge. tam sorry. Chairman Church. Maybe I misunderstood. Mr. Breckinridge. We didn't learn about this until after the FBI found out ‘about the Mafia involvement in that wiretap. This was done by a private dubeckive hired by a private businessra at the request of Gianeana. ~ Mr. Schwarz. _ CIA agents had committed the crime, in this case, but not on behalf of the CIA, i... Bemmid ution. No, a Mr. Schwarz. Isn't that —_ Mr. Breckinridge. No. ' Mr. Colby. I wouldn't call Giancana an agent, getting back to our definitional problems. lic. Schwarz. CIA associates. Mr. Colby. CIA instrument. We had a contact with Giancana, obviously, and with Maheu. They decided on their own to do this wiretapping, or bugging, or whatever it was, without our prior knowledge. They got caught. Then they said if this is fully investigated and brought out, it will bring out the CIA 25 | Sor Lebowatsan en the other subiect, and then decision was mad-2 ‘ Baars rOp . 2) Gerald Ford Library PG? ras Nav bea iis 2] HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 58 ’
vo t = = © go and bricf the Attorney General to the degree briefed Chairman Church. : ~ the case? After which the Justice Doparcnane drop: YPC ‘ Mr. Colby. It was dropped, Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library ye ny FO Panes) dese sad ‘a a>! —_ NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 59
LO LL 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 a1 22 24 25 NW 50955 Senator Nart of Colorado. Was the CIA not Concernad that - Giancana May have told Something about this Cuben operation to ~ the female vatertaines who also may have told the mala entertainer? Mt. Sreckinridge. No. If I understana what happened, and I am now describing what Mz. Naheu saia, and I get this fron having read some files at the Department of Justice recently -- when Mr, Maheu tried to explain to the PBI his position énd tried to provida @ rationals for doing this, he” said I thought there was a leak in Chicago ena I wagted to hava the room of this entertainer — SO I could Find out if Giancana had leaked. _ ~ The FBI gave this the kind of credit I think it was entitle” to. They didntt pay much ae: ttention to it. This was somethina he tried +o develop to justify his involvement, There is no indication that there were any leaks fron Chicago that wa know of, Something that he would know of, and there was no instruction on Our part for him to do such a thing, - ‘and it was for anothsr reason Giaencana asked him to do it. . Senator Hart of Colorado. Ags far as you can fll from tha —s the CIA was not concarnad that Giancena and his fama a friend, Or her male friend, may have blown the Cuban operation? Mr, Breckinridge. No. Senator Ilart of Colorado. It was purelv who was slesping - ; Lo FON with whon? a -- §9 “A “ , ¢ on Photocopy from ost e : 7 ENT: . : ‘SS ; ae FO ca igi ts = ne }2 if Gerald Ford Library aan > DocId:32112724 Page 60
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‘1 3 in the same way as somebody had concealed from tha AStorasy General the fact “hat the Plot was ongoina. Is that-a fair, characterization? 4 . Mr. Colby. I don't know. 5 Fein ced . Mr. Breckinridge. Could I S22 the memo? . Se a. Chairman Church. The ns smo US2#S Verbs in the past Cense. ‘ Mr. Schwarz. The cover Memo from Helms to Hecone trans- 8 mitting a copy of ‘the memorandum concerning th @ May, 1962 9 : P . mee Nssting with Attorney General Kennedy. 10 ; — ¢ Mr. Breckinridge. May I say first I don't know. 1 id ~ - ~ BeBe a Hh oe ay aN just call your éttention to the thirg paragraph. 12 : Mr. Schwarz.” Of the memoranduin from Director Nalns? 15 Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. Ha Was then D.D, 14 Nr. Colby. Tha basic Memorandum, of course, merely 15 ration and then in ur. Halms S referred to a sensitive CIA rehe) LE in the paragraph says I assume you are aware of the nature 17 I of the Operation discussed in ths attachment, 18 Again, this was an attempt not to refer on paver to what - 19 it was, 20 ir. Schwarz. But tha attachment refers to it in the 21 past tense. 2, Fer. ’ “an 22 . ny oa i Mx. Colby. I agree. res a v ia: £ bis foe 25 Senator Morgan. Who is this Memorandum from? a <* 24 Mr. Colby. The memovanly wa arse discussing now of >-— Cc 25 ry August 1963 wan to the pi zeves ‘from Mr, Nelms, 4 attaches r Ham | CHO ti tyery Trane Prices Hien “Ue § ona ea , he ‘i ww 50955 Docra SSSI EF Pee “WEN 62
e pl . 4 a copy of the briefing of tha Attorney Gensral in fay, 1962. : ‘ . A 2 . 2 e . . ‘ \ Senator Morgan. Mr. 3rackinriggs, the trenscrint or Kevore : that you were reading from a few moments ago, who Dranarea 4 tnat? 5 B ice wed . ‘ Mr, Breckinridge. This was prepared by another insdector 6 . FS d -|} and ms in 1967, ‘ ? . a . rr ; Senator Morgan. When you say there is no ind@ication thes 8 . a , he knew, that is just én assumption on your part, that you 9 fia e . ma don't have any positive evidence? f°) Lites : 1 Mr. Breckinridge. Thet is correct. 11 Senator.Morgen. Ths truth is you sort of Suspect they ; 12 all knew what was-going on.” Don't you think that is true? 1s Mr. Brackinridge. Mo, not necessarily. 14 When wa conducted our investigation wa interviswad the 15 people directly involved in tha opsration, those that Were 16 available, ard tried to reconstruct what nhannansed with them. 17 "We interviswed different peOple. I did not interview 18] ur. Bissel. I aid interview Mr. Harvey. i ~ de 19 We submitted this report to then-Director Nalms, one copy 20 | only. Wa did not interview hin. 21 Where his name appeared in the course of our inquiry we 22 put it in our report so that As Would see how the record apnsere! 25 I to peopls who approached it BS we did. 24 The exteat of tha kné@-lictes of thease different paopl. is 25 & © . - : eapetigs coy * AD. sasy 20 reconstruc: acr fair. to assum-, aE Poe s - 7+ bs . “ey Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 63.
wO7 U wlatsonta U vu Photocopy from 1 ; 5 I’can't answer your question. Gerald Ford Library . ; . 2 . ~ Senator Morgan, In other words, If you dién'’ have evidence that thay did KnOw, you just assumed that -- you 4 . ; didn't assume that they didn't know, you just said there is 5 ‘ nO evidence? . ‘ 6, —— ‘ ‘ : Mr. Breckinridge. That 1S correct. ? -— Senator Schweicker. Lst na ask tha question another Way, 8 . The documentation YOu collected and what you do have 9 fons ; wees Positively, who was the highest ranking official, according 10 |] - ‘ to your records, who knew? Chairman Church. According to the PoSitive documents 12 that you have of knowledge. 15 Mr. Breckinridge. First, ledaie ms | Saye we did not have 14 documentation. Tt was besed mostly « On interviews, this 15 Period involving the Mafia. 16 Ths highest parson that wa understood that knew during 17 the first phass with Hr. Bissel. That we clearly did kn@-—— 18 about ite There was discussion at Ona point in which Mr. 19 Bisel, Colonal aear Gas the two of them, met with Mr. Dulles 20 || and had a conversation in which I can best say there was “1 | aoubletalk as to What they wera discussing. ‘22 . \ It is open to questicr how Clearly this was stated LaT Fe i, *o° 25 ‘lx. Dulles and whether or not Mr. Dulles undarespad. ip 24 AL the sime c:hat we wer: making she inquiry it was our : 25 Ovinion that tr. Rull-s Prohasly knew, but I can't put it deo! NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 64
6 a that. e Senator Schweickar. pe left tha Aqency in 1962, @s I recall. ; 4 When was your investigation? 5 Mr. Breckinridge. Our investigation was in 1967, : And our discussion with Colona Edwards, who Cescribed in this meeting when it Occurred ir 1960, left us with the impressih: 8 while they had met wity ifr. aisiia that the conversation Was 9 not in preciss terms, As Colonel ‘Edwards “said te us, wa 10 didn't use any bad words, which maant they didn't use the Sok. word “assassination,” but they discussed an Operation against 12 | Castro in-such terms that he felt that they had convayed the 1s messaga to Mr. Dulles. But there is room for doubt. 14 | Senator Schweicker, Once te, Dulles left the Agency, who 15 then becama the highase ranking person to know, according 16 Il to your investigation? 17 Mr. Breckinridge, If Mr. Dulles did in Pact understand, 18 he would ds the highest Person at this Point. 19. a Schweicker., At this ‘Point. But he left the 20 Agency in 1962. Five years of assassination attempts wen ON #5 ‘9 21 after that. ie E : 22 You conducted an investigation in 1967. What cad Shak... - 23 period show as to. who was ths highest Dann Person who knew? 24 Hr. 3reckinridqge. “rl MeCona ata nOt know until much lat.r 5 . se Oa se 6 Ss ay, _ ~ooe e Until after it Was all over pictocanar tern bu yay 5 iy | Gerald Ford Library ’ Yu [os ort a . ‘ . NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 65
HW? DGrii | 2 6% : oo Ry Mo 7 : Mr. Colby. Me knew in 1963. Me oy 2 en “ ® > ° ~ Mr. Breckinridge. About a past event. ey “Mr. Colby. There was still activities going On.° Nx. Breckinridge. That is right. Chairman Church. Can we get the answer first? Mr, Breckinridge. ExcuSe ma. I can't give yOu a more precise answer because sometimes the racord that wa Wer2 able ty to reconstruct is’ not precisa and in soma instances not at all Clear. We ware left with some uncertainty. LO os Senator’ Schweickar., Wouldn't that be ¢ your whole investigation, and you mean to Say you can'* tall 2 kay issues of 44: 12 me ? ree ay oy Fe on 13 — en acd a < Mr. Breckinridgs. “lo, sir. 7 4s 7 . \2 ig. 14 ra :, ict £ % . ni Senator Schweicksr. I am flabbergasted. ot 15 vir. Breckincidgs. Let me describe tha investiaation. 16 We Were doing the invastigation for Mr. Nelms as tha Director. 17 Hr. Hslms' involvement was somsthing Known to nim and wa 18 subiitted our description of what happened to him. ‘We did not 19 interview him in the course of our investigation. ‘la did not 20 interview Mr. McCons. Wa did interview tha ocher parties who : 21°) were available to us. But when we gave it to Mr. elms the £21 assunption was that he cele conpls*ts the gaos. i ° : . 2a ¢ . e . . 25 In this Sense, ordinarily, when we conduct an investigatior e4' a general investigation, wa would conclude with recommendations, 25 end in this-iastanca we dit ini. Ye recoastrieted as well as : : HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 66
= Wey om ie Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 1 a ‘ 18 We could what happened. And the raport went one copy only to 2 . | | Mr. Helms who held it. We had only one ciscussion. The 3 , Ss Inspector General then may have had others. We had enly one 4° ‘ ‘ ‘ , ‘ discussion with him, which wes when we gave him the first 5 ‘ "i : . portion of the report, because we investiaated three differant 6 = : yaad t : le - ; « M t } assassination Dlens, as we described them then, and our diseussio. with him had to do with the. epproach we had taken, and wa 8 , 2. , said that we simply undertook to reconstruct what had hansenea 9 as best we could: reconstruct it, fe) , F 1 So We Were reporting to Nr. Helms whet wae had recenstructs3 . 4 il without having iaterviswed him as such. It was in one conv 12 Only, and quite frankly in 1967 we expects” that it vould ok. have no ourposs other than to ts1ll him what the situation was 14 for decisions as hs felt apprepriats. 15 Senator Mondalz. ‘low, vou say it is not clear wheths 16 Dulles knaw, but yet there is a manmorandum from Oshorn “‘a—_——- 17 th: By. sy 2 ni Aa ela 9 . 7 . a . se Executives Director dated 2/15/72, which states, I quote: : ; 18 won +s : ‘ S BPs Individuals who wers aware of this project" -- Ue 19 That is ths N2fia project -- 20 "were Messrs. Dullas, Bisssl, Colonsl “Ying, Colonel ice 21 Sheffield, Edwards, William Narvey, James P. O'Connell, and On | 22 1 attornays for Robart Mahe." 23 Mr. Breckinridge. Mr. Osborn is writing that on the basis 24 of nis understanding of what Colonel Edwerds had to say. 25 Our discussions with Colonel Névards laft us with this uncertais | , HWW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 67
Usk Ouse 9 en . ' . Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library s 1 ‘ - 7 1 ' sn 9 Colonel Edwards believes that Mr. Dulles understood the 2 " a ; ‘ cOnversation. He also said that he engaged in doubletalk so 3 .* : F that there was room for misunderstanding. 4 . Mr. Schyarz. I show you a documart Stamded 0012, headag 5 ; , i we John Roselli and ask you what it is. 6 oe idas. Thie 3 . a =. Mr. Breckinridge. This is 2 memo prepared in the Office 7 . ‘id “ ‘ ‘ ‘ || of Security describing John Rose)li, who is the first of thea 8 Members of the syndicate who was used to arrange the introducticl.. 9 to the head of the syndicate in Cube, ‘10} - ir. Schwarz. And written when? ) he Mr, Breckinridgs. t am not sur2. I suspect it Nel eet ken : . . ee 12) an 1973 but I would have to check. 13 Mr. Schwarz. Doses it refer to a Castro assassination 14 attempt involving the Mafie? 15 Hr. Breckinricgs. Does the word "assassination" aodear? 16 | fr think it refers to tha Mafia, 17 Mr. Schwarz. Do you. havs any doubt, in fact, this is ‘ . > ct J . “= « . € : 18 referring to thse assessination sfifert involving Maheu, Roselli, pre tee 19 Trafificanta, in connection with Castro? be 20 | Hx. Brackinridgs. That is correct. : 21 Mr. Schwarz. And dogs this document prsvared by the ' #21 Office of Sactirity state "the DCI was briefed and gave his 23 | ap>oroval"? 24]. Hx, Breckinridge. It does. —_ 25 Mz. Schwarz. And whe was tha DCT in August, 1969? i HW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 68
*) gee a wash #9 : ‘ / . UI DEGIET i 68 . : ‘ toe =. 0. . ( Serag p PY fron, wee A Lip 1 rary h 10°: Mx. Breckinridge. That was Mr. ‘Dulles. 2 . . 4 Mr. Schwarz. Now, therefore, either Mr. Dulles did approve! Pe) . ‘. : which the document says, or somsbody wrote a document in connection with the investigation which irresponsibly says 5 - . _f 4x. Dulles approved. hich is the case? ‘ 6 . . ‘ : Mr. Breckinridgs. I don't think that #ither is necassarily 7 e . the casc. 8 . -: Par = ‘ : Tae understanding of the Office of Security is that Mr. id Dulles docs know or did know. ‘Tha question that was raised 10 in the courSs of our inguiry was that tha nature of the Mseting 11 as described to us raised a Guestion cf doubt. That we did 12 not resolva. 15 Chairman Church. I think if wa accspt your testinony 14 that there was at least an slement of deulst as to whether or 15 rot Hr. Dulles knew of the connection Detween the CIA and the 16 iiafia, and its purposes, to assassinate Tir. Castro, let's gat } ack to Senator Schweicker's question. er Hr, 2 at 17] se to tor Sch ker's quest After Hr. Dulles lef i8 Sevefal mors plots were formed involving the CIA and having 0 #¢q; ‘ “p09 19} to do with subsequant attempts Cn the life of Castro, = : “> 20 Now, what does your investigation show end what can you .__}- ; 21} te11 us with respsct to tha highas+ officials in the CIA, ‘ 22 following the departurs of Mr. Dulles, who may have had knowleagk 25 1 of these Ongoing operations? 24 “ir. Breckinridge. When the operation was renewed I think 25 it is clear that-the Dirsecter at that tims dig not know, NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 69
Wed DURE (6 1 ' nv , . hl? : Senator Schweicker, And who was tha Director at that 2 tins? | 5 . . . > Chairman Church. Wher was the operation renewed? 4 —? ’ | My. Breckinridge. The operation was actually reactivated 5 ‘ ; ‘ . in April of 1962. It was planned to be reactivated prior to 6 sg Bie G . ’ that but tha employes who had responsibility for it did not 7 gét frae until April of '62 when ha actually reactivated it, 8 There is no indication «hat anyone above the level of Mr. 9 Sissel in 1961, at the time that this was discussed, ther: 10 is no indication that anyone above his level knay that it ak was to be reactivated. This officer, Mr. Harvey, then took le it- over and attempted to run it again through the balance 13 | of 1962, after April. 14 Mir. Schwarz. Us did *shet at tha instruction of “Ir, Wels , 15} aia he not? 16 mx. Brackinridgs. Mr. Helins became aware of this ata 17 later ooint. . e . 18 “The confusion, as psrhabs we discuss=2 the other day, Hr. 19) Helms signsd off on a preject that was originally initiated , —__| 20 || by Mr. Bissel called 2R Rifle, and 2R Rifle was a proje > 21 Mr. Bissel was quoted as saying was at the urgency of tha-: 74: £2 , ; _ me Sa 22 White House. It was made no mora specific than that. Wa atc, wiles pee — " -° * gf 93 ‘ - a Sgt. Ee . < . ‘2s doen't knew where in the White House, erred oe. : : ‘a — Oo. 24 eR Rifle was dascribed as an executive action czvabdility, 7 £5 @ capanility to permit assassinations if sonsone celled for . NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 70
12 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 L? 18 19 20 21 ‘ 22 zs 24 295 HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 71 ‘ ~ Mr. Harvey was given the resvonsibility of this by Hr, Bissel and-originally it continued as a separate action from ths Castro operation, but tir. Harvey was also given that responsibility, and for all intents and purposes they became Wedded. Mr. Hslns was the person who formally approved 28 Rifle @S a projact. 2R. Rifle had a dual purvose that has not been .Clarificd by our inquiry. It avparantly was in fact used for the stated purposes, as far as organizational activities wen+ “pa” a Pe er ee : along, which was to steelicod’s, and Mr. "Helms, when he approved the project, authorized accounting on certification, which meant that rather than the usual vouchers supportin ewxDendituras, that the officer involved would simply certify that the monsy had been spent and this woulé bs accectad, Hi t had a project. amount of soma dollars, $7509 - $10,099 -- 8y somes of it to includes the salary of an agent, som2 to includ: . e . Operating expanses. So Nr. Helms' main appearance in the approval cf ZR Rifle does not necessarily equate with the date when he bacame ( familiar with the Castro operation. es ie & Nr. Schwarz. Because of the dual purposa of Rifle, Rif means both, rifle files ani used rifles? Mr. Breckinridge. It may mean either or both. Mr. Colby. It is supposed to cdisasscciats but sometines rt ak ores NON oe Oe TIS
. ts os Pie Rea Pe , 8 UG DiGi S 13 there is that kind of association, : z ~ ses Mr. Breckinridge. told you that I would look for whar 5 . ’ + ‘ ix. Helms' name first clearly appeared and I haven't don: that, 4 a Iwas out of town yesterday. . 5 > : . * Mr. Schwarz. Do you hava the’ memo of February 1962 2 . 6 c—- . When Mr. Helms, according to Mr. Greer, Inspector General,\__ | ‘y ‘ tay . , "authorized Williem Harvay by mesmo to handle tha project on 8 © 4 u ks a special hasis"?. 9 a ‘ : . Nx. Breckinridge. Do I have a copy of that memorendun? 10 Mr. Schwarz. Yes, ii Mr. Breckinridge. It is in the files and we can retriave 12 ie, 15 Chairmén Church. Mr. Bissal was ths Dedsuty Director of 14 Plans. Ths record would indicats thas he knew of ths re- 15 activation of ths operation to assassinate Castre-in aAoril of 16 1962, and ilr. Harvey, cake it, wes essigned that auty? 17 Mr, Breckinridge. If I may go back, it was in the fall | J a9 20 : ; 21 : i }! | B wes, 23 ~ : Photocopy from ~ wee? 24 Gerald Ford Library - 25 :7 NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 72
Photocopy from a, Mr. Schwarz. November 1961? Gerald Ford Library $ ~ Mr. Breckinridge. I think that is probably correct. It 5 |} was in the fall of 1961 that Mr. Harvey was given this assignmen: 4 by Mr. Bissel. I think Mr. Bissc. left in 1962. 1 am not sure § of the dates, So Mr. Bissel would have known at that time. ‘6 || But I am not sure after that. ; Chairman Church. Helms succeeded Mr, Bissel as chief 8 || of operations? 9 Mr. Colby. Deputy Director of Plans. 10 Chairman Church. Deputy Director for Plans. 11 Your record shows that Helms had knowledge of the ZR Rifle . i. s . . ——s 12 || Operation, which, among other things, was to develop an xaxecutive. 13 | Capability -~- whatever that means. Presumably that means a 14 | capability to conduct an-assassination if and when authorized 15 | by Proper authority? 16 . Mr. Breckinridge. That is my understanding. 17 Chairman Church. Is thateyour understanding? for LG 5 " 18, -Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir. tere” 19 Chairman Church. Do your: records Show that, or is that i: . aye spre Mr. Breckinridge. First,.let me go back and clarify, then 20 based upon what has been revealed through your interrogation?: 2) ' ge || I will answer this guestion; i£°1 may. 23 Mr. Helms approved 2 Rifle, which the record showshas the 24 || responsibility of stealing codes, essentially. - ” My understanding, — my intedtiedqws, — 2R Rifle had ‘ - + = -~ oe eet meme NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 73
~_ es) wo 10 a he 12 13 14 15 16 aL? 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 74 also the responsibility for executive action capability. That . isa difficult phrase. The record does not show that Mr. elms knew when he approved the project that it had this dual role. So from that poin: of view, I have . record that shows what the project was supposed to have been as far as its open description, though classified, and the.result of our interviews. with Mr. Harvey which tell th Other story about executive action capability. So it does not, the record does not show that Mr. Helms at that time knew what that was. , | Chairman Church. If Harvey knew that it had this other aspect, who would have told him to develop such a capability, if it were not his superior? Mr. Breckinridge. I think that. is a leaden. conclusion, hus I was distinguishing what the a and what our silat te developed. | | Chairman Church. Didn't you ask Harvey in interviewing as a part of the ZR Rifle? | Didn't, you ask him who told. him to develop this capability, or did he do it on his own? Mr. Breckinridge. Your question is a very proper one, and my difficulty is-with the record which goes back to what Bisse} instructed Harvey to do. Mr. Schwarz. Before Helms took the job, Bissel told Harvey him whether or not Helms had told him to Géevelop this capabiivé; 7 | Bhotucopy trom Gerald Ford Library
an 3 g 8 1 2 z 2 g 3 E 4 5 "6 7 8 9 10 11 5 12 > é é 13 a \4 N 14 15 16 17 18 “ 19 3 20 “ ‘8 21 3 22 f - 23 ‘= 24 aw . 25 c QZ w Wes iakata 0 to take. charge: of the Castro assassination project? ~Mr. Breckinridge. Bissel told Harvey to create the execut; action cisanadin. Mr. Schwarz. But he also told him to take charge of the Castro assassination project using the Mafia; isn't that correct? Mr. Breckinridge. Now, there is no record except the record that camé from our interviews on this score. All I am trying to do is draw the distinction between what the record shows and what our lweseudiaus, devetored, and there are gaps in that. . Chairman Church. Your interviews show that Mr. Bissel, who preceded Helms, told Mr. Harvey to develop an executive action capability, which was a capability’ to assassinate if.and when ordered; right? Mr. Breckinridge. That is KOBE. Chairman Church. And your records show that Mr. Bissel ites Epsteuct]d Harvey to take over the Castro assassination attempt, which was connected with a continuing relattoushiie “2s between the CIA and the Mafia? Mr. Breckinridge. I think that is a correct assumption, - yes. Chairman Church. Now, when eo your records shew that Helis becaine aware. of Harvey's whole assignment as given him by Bissel? an photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 75 ,
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 LZ 13 WARD & PAUL 15 16 17 18 19 430 First Street, $.€., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003 tw 0 25 Mr. Breckinridge. I don't have the accurate date. We have the 16 August 1963 memorandum. i promised Mr. Schwarz that I would try and find the date, and I was out of town yesterday and simply didn't do it. But I have to go — the reeord to find the earliest date that we have, and I simply have to go into the record to dig this out. Senator Schweiker. . Do your records show the date of when the actual latest assassination attempt was finished? Mr. Schwarz. For castro? Senator Schweiker. Yes. When was that timefrane, roughly? “Mr. Breckinridge. You are talking about the Mafia connecti: . Senator Schweiker. No; I am talking about when did we finally cease and desist in attempting to assassinate Castro, from your records? Mr. Breckinridge. Let me, if I. may, and I don't mean to confuse the issue = the Mafia connection from beginning to end was an attempt to assassinate Castro. The operation was called off finally in the Spring, perhaps February, of 1963. - Senator Hart of Michigan. What year? etn Mr. Breckinridge. 1963. : Nr. Schwarz. That is the Mafia part? Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir. The Cuballa Association has a |; different origin. | Chairman Church. First, who called off the Mafia operatior Mr. Breckinridge. As near as I could tell, Harvey. Photocopy from NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 76 Gerald Ford Library
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 12 13, WAND & PAUL, 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 HW 50955 DoclId: ‘*  Chaimman Church, iarvey? Mr: Breckinridge. MWarvey. Harvey decided that it couldn't ~ succecd. Harvey was leaving the country for a foreign assicni. on: and in _conversation with Rselli— Roselli was the man who was in the Wafia through whom the Agency had continued to work ~- and Roselli agreed that nothing wan haspantg, nothing coule happen, and it should be called off. We don't have a record that Harvey went anywhere for approval. This doesn't mean that he may not have discussed it, but I don't have the record of ib. So Harvey in his conversation with Roselli, terminated the operation. | Sanane Hart of Colorado. The memo which we saw at the last eoeetate which I'don! t know we officially have, ur. Colby made it available to us -- was a Wrap-up of the whole thing, or a meno to the files, and I can't recall now-who did it. ee Mr. Schwarz. That is the one referring to the meeting —,_, with R Robert Kennedy that we spent some time lcoking at. Senator Hart of Colorado. That was the She¥Fleid-rdwaree” nemo which Say with the Om apie of the Bay of Pigs invasion operation, no further attempt was made with the Mafia. & tied it directly to the Bay of Pigs. Mx. Colby.. That was the first phase. There was a second rr A A wr pe ohase that followed with the Mafia, . Chairman Church, We now know from what you have said that farvey called off the Mafia connection, and we don't know whether “SFR Gaeans Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library } 32112724 Page 77 .
a am ” ; : 1 ft that = done want the knowledge or authority of anyone more h- 3 2 | placed in the cra, i ) Mr. Breckinridge. I don't know. : : . E 4 Chaicman Church. All right, after Harvey left the country 5 || who was then assianed to crmeela an the subsequent effort S again 6 ithe life of Castro? a Mr. Breckinridge. This brings us to Senator Schweiker's 8 }}question. A man n by the name of siemens Cubella, who had been 9 met in Mexico City by the Agency in 1961, who had been one of 10 }| the leaders of the anti- ~Batista groups . and held the rank of Majer 11 {/ in the Cuban army, that is the highest rank they have, Cuvelia J 12 was an M.D. and had been a youth leader and attended youth : 13 conferences around the world, and was met first in Mexico City, s 14 and later he was met in Scandinavia on several occasions, And 15 || the conversations curing these various MBSE Ings had to do with 16 Cubella’ s desire to — a change in Cuba, and the akc sree on 17 || the neeniey people who met with hin to explore his ability to 18 |i Substituté a. covernment as well as be able to Overthrow the’ a ‘ 19 existing SeuGHmerd . 3 : : 20 | These conversations were very general, exploratory, ‘ana-"~ é 21 ||Non-productive, In one of the early meetings with wm wo 24 Assassination, which was reported back 410 First Street, $.£., Wasnin 25 ||"ord to Cubella,-and instructions were herr tN | NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 78 Cubella, he taiked about 23 {|climinating Castro, and the’ Agency cmployee used the word as being an offensive issued ‘that Cubella was Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
2 5 eee Qe te away YO www 4 5 10 11 12 13 WARD & FAULK 14 15 16 we 4 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 79 1 jinot to be given a mission of elimination of Castro or anyone else. He was net bu" Gckobes of 1963, at which time he made the proposai that he wished to have vwcapons with which to commit: an agsa8sination, and this Proposal was rejected, He continued to speak in these terms, and finally, I cannot give you the level of approval ~~ that might be at the level of Hr. Fitzgerald -~ and I don't recall which job Mr. Fitzgerald had then, whether he headed the Cuban Task Force or whether he had — > Mr. Knoche. . He replaced Harvey. , ‘ie. Schwa. * He did meet with this man and gave him a weapon or poison pen with which to kill Castro? Mr. Breckinridge. “Foteveva la did not give him the pen, Mr, Schwarz. But discussed the subject? Mr. Breckinridge. I was considering the question of level of authorization, and I don't recall. I would assume # % we Wa = Mr. Fitzgerald was the highest level of authorization that “T's, ——— is Ba Chairman Church. And Fitzgerald's position at ears wes. Mr. Breckinridge. I was guestioning whether he had -- he had three jobs in fairly quick succession. Whether he replaced - Harvey as head of the Cuban: Task Force, then he became Chief of NUM, the Western Hemisphere Division, and then he became for ze | 25 a short time Deputy Director of Plans. But he died of a heart | Se ee ee ee Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
3 : : 1 athacks;, 2 I don't know whether he had at that time ~~ it would g 2 | be in October of 1963, é 5 Mr. Colby. I think at that time he was cither head of the E 4 |}Cuban forse ox Chief of the Weste.n Hemisphere Division. 5 Chairman Church. Will you get that for the recora? "6 Mr. Colby. Yes, sir, 7 Mr. Breckinridge, The decision was taken to try and give Cubella Some instrument. A ball point pen was desioned that could be used as a syringe. Because Cubella was a Cector, the 9 10 |} pen was given to him in Paris on the 22nd of Hove: mber, 1963, 11 || With the suggestion that he use it, F 12 Chaizman Church, By whom was the pen given? 13 Mr. Breckinridge, It was given by a case officer of the < 14 Agency. In fact, Cubella refused to take it. When we wrote our 15 || Teport, we thought he accepted £t, —— ve since learns¢ he | 16 refused it. He said it was not practical. 17 Because he was a doctor it was suggested that he coulaé 18 acquire the material is Put in the pen, but he refused to accept 19 4 7 | | 20 Conversations continued, ane finally the.Agency arranged 2) to put down two caches at sea off the coast of Cuba, one of wnich had weapons in it, one of which had just general equipment “4V THI DING, d.c., Wasnington, O.c, 20003 ' 22 23 Senator Schweiker, Could either ‘of those involve the story 24 that appeared in the press under. Colonel Prouty's statement? 25 Mr, Breckinridge, No, sir. : LEP, oe dio El ane Ween chery, cern Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 80 be "
° ° a = 4 4 < wo - nN ° «4 7 » S $s s c E 10 L2 12 15 WARD & PAUL 14 15 | 16 1? 1s 19 20 22 Re 23 24 410 First Street, $.€., Washington, 0.6, 20003 25 Senator Schweiker. Did that come later, Colonel Prouty? ® _ Mx. Breckinridge. We still don't know what Colonel Prouty' Statement refers to,, Mr. Knoche. Prouty's allegations go back to 1959, Senator Selamatuee, What? Mr. Knoche., 1959, late 1959 and early 1960. Mr. Breckinridge. We arranged to have a Cuban refugee leader meet Cubella in Spain, at which time he gave nim an additional weapon. That would have been in February og 1964, I think, @ Chairman Church, what kind of weapon was given to him? Mr. Breckinridge: It is my recollection it was a rifle, I am not Sure of that. iain Cubella continued to have conversations and meetings from time to time as he came out of Cuba, and finally in the middie of 1965 the decision was taken to cut off contact with him oe there were serious qesions about the security of his organization. He was arrested, I think. I think 1x have gotten my dates right. It is subject to correction. He was arrested in the early part of 1966 and tried, made a confession, had 2 public trial, which was reported in the press, ots, I wonder if I might check those dates? rc tee =.) , Qo ey Chairman Church. Surely. — AS +7 i While you check those Cates, perhaps Mx. .Colby could 2 om rae ' 2 bee ate SF < ea isd Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 61 en ee es we + nt —— ee
Gi Phone (Area 202) $44-C000 > on 10 il 13 WAND & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 a9 el 22 - 24 TO 6 He DLE, robin PARTE, teks CUYUSD 25 explain how it was during this period that Cubella was able to return to Cuba and travel to Europe, - seen he was able to return to Cuba? Mr. Colby, lHe-was a Cuban officer at that time, and apparently loyal to Castro. He would go out on various —— and things like that, and we would — him there. Mr. Schwarz. He was the man who met with Mr. Hunt in Madrid? | Mr. Colby. “He met with a friend of Mr. Hunt. a Cuban exii met Cubella- in Madrid, That is when the weapons were handed over, Mr. Schwarz. Was Mr. Hunt in Madri@ at shat time? Mr. Colby. Yes. ; Mr. Breckinridge. No, because this man by the nane of Artimo, met Cubella in Ma@rid in December of 1964, and in February 1965 he made the Gelivery of the weapons. Hunt was not’ assigned there until the middle of 1965, after this was over. We ,don't know where that story came from. ~ Mr. Colby. Hunt and Artimo ere very close, and he is ‘thc an godfather of one of their children, and things like that. He may Nave told him about it. Chairman Church. During this period you have described, | ; 23 wnen these various contacts were made with Cubella, who was the highest officer within the CIA who had knowledge of chese contacts and who authorized them to be made, as farlas. your oo Gees aa Photocopy from oe eee ne Gerald Ford library TID Qe rm pase \ NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 62
$ L jl investigation Shows? - v * A m = * vj idac : . . § 2 Mx. Breckinridge, I don't know the level at which the $ © |} contacts “Te AGG. I would assume that the continuing contac ° . , E 4 ||were known at a high level, but I have to assume that, and this 5 || goes to a Point when Senator Schweiker was asking the question _ 6. ffat the last time. This is the last instance that we know of 7 jjin which assassination was invelved. 8 Senator Schweiker, That is, both your records and your 9 }/interviews indicate that this was the last known activity, 10 |} according to your investigation? ll Mr. Breckinridge. That was Specifically related to : 12 ||Castro: é . 13 Senator Schweiker. And that date Was when? : .. t , < Mr. Breckinridge Well i i : 14 ge, fit, Our contact with the Cubella group 15 “as broken off in June of 2965. , CO eran 16 Senator Schweiker, June of when? | oA 17 Mr. Breckinridge, 1965, nit Tee OS, ; inn eal : 18 i Mon't want to confuse you, but I would like to intreduce . 19 /@ Consideration. that rélates to this, o owe .] ° : 5 20 Caairman Church. Before you do that, I have asked what 6 . -«- . ° ‘ ' . . e e < : s 2) }your investigation shows is the highest officer who knew and £ . £ ' §, 22 under whose authority thése continuing contacts were made, and J : : 23 |lyou Said you assumed it must have been known to higher authority. z 24 Mr. Breckinridge. I said that abeut the centacts, About © Ss . = 95 |the contacts, I assumed this was known fairly high in the Asgeney. : J rey > re rae rm on a praress - . By Ke ° q Y ° — mae E Gerald Ford Library | NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 83
We Po ia Qs U ny é 1 _—— Church. The contacts and their purpose? : 2 _ mr, Breckinridge. This is a distinction I — to make, g 3 The people who were involved, and this is difficult -~ : 4 | but their geAcenent of state of mind, and your interpretation, 5 H}may be different things. But the people who were involved -6 considered that the purpose of the association with Cubella was 7 |}he was a man who was hich in the Castro government, he was a 8 |} man who represented a dissatisfied element, he had people who 9 || agreed with him, and the hope was that this could be developed 10 into a group in Cuba that in some way could replace the sovern- 11 ment... F) 12 : whe conversations with Cubella were really not productive, : ; é 13 | and Cubella wanted demonstration of support, tangible sunsort, g 14 | and the conversations progressed to the point that he wanted 15 equipment with which he could commit and assassination. 16 ' In the minds of the veople who dealt with him, the question 17 | of asSassSination was not uppermost, so much as it was to give him a material demonstration of support. 18 19 I don't mean to be trite, but the United States or the ' 29 | Agency has in the past provided weapons of one kind or another : i ows ‘ 5 _ to pecple, paramilitary. In the minds of these people, hewever Bi : c é 3! po || credible to you this distinction is drawn, so assassination a ‘ ; “ 23 |} becare a consideration, but assassination had not been..the = Ve af = 25 | Yam Sorry, one more point. ‘ a“ Photocopy from NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 84 Gerald Ford Library
: ; 1 g 2 & 3 E 4 5 - & ? 8 9 10 12 2? é 6 13 e . 3 14 15 16 17 18 2 19 ES J 20 : $ 21 : 23 : 24 ; 25 uhe point at which they — to provide weapons to him should have required higher level approval. I dies | t know what the level of approval was. | Mr. Gectveensi It should have under the normal procedures? Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir, ° Chairman Church. At one point a meeting tcok place and an agent of’ the aia gave him a ballpoint pen that had been Speciali designed to ‘ SatteReLage a syringe, and gave it to him with the recommendation Ghat it would be filled with poison and used to kill Castro. | Are you Saying that the agent may have done this without the knowledge of the Director or the Deputy Director for Plans; Someone high in the Agency? , Mr. Breckinridge. No; I am Saying there should have been b-4 authorization. I don't know the level of that authorizatior. merely tried to draw a distinction because it is a question rais- . 4 in’my mind, it was raised by Senator Schweiker's question -- whex was the last attempt of edteshingkinne This developed to the point where assasSination was involved, and this was the last Such interest that we know of. Senator Schweiker. Are you Saying after the incident that Senator Church just asked you about, at that point the enchasis Is that what you are. trying to aL us, or did I misconstru- — _—_— that, too? . | | Photoxupy from wine Tego | | shifted fron assassinating hin to replacing him? | } Gerald Ford Library * & oe “. | _ | ‘ ‘ NOES 4a WY fue laa uy ‘ Fea oo Saskia | HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 85
3 ’ # “ : < E WARO & PAUL 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C, 20003 11 12 13. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 (22 23 24 25 NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 86 Mr. Breckinridge, I am confusing the issue by trying to describe the state of mind of the people who were breve) wie i the operation. .Chairman Church, We don't even know who were involved, tell us that. Mr. Breckinridge. As far as I know , Hr. Fitzgerald woule be the highest level that I know Was aware of this, _—— Church, What was his position? We are back to Mr. Colby. Chief of the Western Hemisphere Divi — from Gerald Ford Library :
L. . ce] 2 2 4 . ‘ oe _ % tabe Senator Morgan. Is he dead? Photocopy from : 2 5 ‘ Gerald Ford Library : ~ Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. ; - : . . 2 - . : * : Mr. Breckinridge. The problem that you ars having, which fa 4 | is ons that we have, is reconstructing certain aspects of this = bach ‘ 5 . P . . ‘ quite frankly, aad we have attempted to: reconstruct it-by tha 6. . . . , record, wheres the record supports it by interviews, where the ij ; ’ Tr . interviews can fill gaps, and it wes of some interest to 8 Ls . try to get from tha psopls involvad their rationale. The 9 -rationale is difficult, complex, and I hava tried to convey 10 that because i+ was brought to my mind by Senator Schweicksr's i quzstion. ' ie . saz fag ie ; : 3 Mr. Colby: “If I could helo interpret this from 2 cultural < a ae 1 1s pattern. -- . te. > Q fee : 14 +h a} jy 3 bd tit I think the poirt is thet we located this major, haw is looksd like a very promising contact within Cube who couls°—-™ 16 possibly replace Castro or bring about his Gisnosition, and so 1? forth, ee r=move him without any specifics: 18 -in the course of ths conversations, the 1963 Meeting with 2 19 | the ballpoint pean took placa. We don't have any clear record 3 £0 | as to who authorized thet particular aspect of the relationshin ¢ 2 #1 || concerning the ballpoint pen. The fact that we then went on e . . . - : ‘ e2 with him until '64 and '65 with the offers of weapons fits 23 | into the general support of that effort ard doesn't necsSsarily oo rcida with the deliberate attsmots + we ) ju Q n fy u u“ he 3 sy ce ts sa on 3 co 410 First Streot, $.E., Wasnin £5 although it could, and our records don't cle erly indicate one | . SSRI RTE ty teers NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 87
« $ 5 2 g 3 Fa 4 5 — 7 8 9 10 Ll F 12 >) < é LS 2 3 “14 15 16 17 18 - 19 8 3 20 yi & 21 2: 22 2 23 z 24 uw 7: 25 Photocopy from way ox the other on that. Gerald Ford Library \ ~ Chairmen Church. A cache of weapons delivered On tha coast of Cuba hardly constitutes an arsenal by which it réason: could be assumsd that the government can ba overthrown. It does, however, fit into a scheme of providing the major erd his cohorts with a capability of assasSinating the Cuban leaser Mr, Colby. It also coincides with the possibility o rm the first step toward additional arms. I am not denying it, Mr. Ch fw irman. I am saying thet the o records don’t clearly indicate i > Schwarz's original question to mse -- can you define "assess: tf , and this gats beck to Mr. 7 =- PS ad —% tion"? ct co) cr 3 fe tt I would rsespactfully request that I don't get int because thers is a question as to when you ers Sucssrting arczed action and whan you are committing an assassination. 707 Chairman Church. All right. During this whole vzrica We understand that the Director of the CIA, who was Me. MNeCore, had Said ha had no knowle rer 6Q 2 of th it $2 Ongoing activities. ‘ir, Colby. I would inagine that his testimony that hs 3 aid not know of an assassixnztio > would be consistent with my comment as to the weapons being given in support of armed actic: but not the specific assassination plans. I don't know that but I an saving that is a possibla exnlaration of tha diffzr wv oh, ORG aw between those stories. ‘ go 0S - ‘ ~ . - * . . oy Chairman Chureh. We will hava ‘to question Mr. MeCone mic! . CAN SAY pes HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 88
~- 4 Se UN ee OM Photocopy from So S 3 nF ; Gerald Ford Libra i more closely on that point. _— ’ a 2 ‘ n But you are unable now to tell us in connection with thase se -\- : later activities whether or not nize Was spacific knowledges ° & 4 ie, 1 . of thair connection with the assassirat ion PUrpOSs, above thea 5 . ; level of Mr. Fitzgerald? .° - 6 5 ; . . : Mr. Breckinridge. At this moment I cennot. 7 . ‘ , P Senator Horgan. May I pursue a lina of questions for just 6 a few minutes? 9 . P Pirst of all, Mr. Schwarz, this document, Exhibit A, who 10 prepared it? a ae +o — i This is the original rough Graft het was prepared only 3 12 by the typists? | : 13 —_—___ | : Mr. Schwarz. That is tha Ken Greer document. 14 eee Mr. Colby. Prsepered = One of Mr. Brackinridgz's'7 C3 — hid Pe Yd ‘ 5 .> ad 15 associates, Mr. Xenneth Greer. ‘\ id ° Wisse ape 16 Senator Horgan. “heat wes thea purpose of the vorenaration 17 of this document? 18 Mr. Colby. It followsd the 9th of May, 1973 directive 19 ‘by Nr. ‘Schlesinger for a report on 4ll questionable activitizs. ? 4 * . . : 20 These were gathered together by ‘Ur. Greer and the other mnembsrs : , i 21 | of the Inspector General's office and a summary of then was 1a e . i Z2' srovided to me to use to orisf the Chairman of the two committ: x: t r . 25 Senator Morgan... This was the best informat ion that the 24 Agency was able to obtain at the *ima? 25 Mr. Colby. That was tha infornation available to “ha ‘ NW 50955 DocId: 32112724 Page 89
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL gton, D.C. 20003 410 First Stroot, $.£., Wasnin 10 x th 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 RL 22 23 24 25 Inspector General at the time. I think 1 would say it was ab]. I don't think we instituted en aggressive, positive investiqas We rather collected what we had availabls, Senator Morgan. Wall, there have been assassinatior attempts or efforts on the part cf: the government. Shere's no ~ question in my mind. The questicn I want to pursue is that in ths document marked here Exhibit A, project 72 Rifle, it stated that early in the Kennedy Administration, "the Whita nn 7 nt House urged Richard Bissel to create an executive action ~ Capability." That is a gensral standby Capability to carry out assassinations. ; Now, that was the primary Purpose of 2R Rifla; is: that your understandina? Mr. Colby. Tt was onz of ths purposes of “he 2R Ritla project. | Senator ‘Morgan. And it was done at tha instigation of . Mr. Colby. We have one record which states that es Bissel mads this statement without furthar precision. fo enator Morgan. An@ where is ur. Sissel?- he Senator Morgan. Now later on we find that this project continued on under a man by the name of Bill Narvey, did it . ‘Oo a mre Photocopy from RUAN EN CP PT AS Py amy Gerald Ford Library not? . : : HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 90 Mr. Colby. Mr. Bissel, I think, livas in Connscticut Gt. | |
Pnone (Ares 202) $44-6000 10 ll 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 « Zl, 23 24 “SAV Fitdt direst, >.e., wastniagton, O.C, 20003 25 i % Bee ‘Can say for sures. | ic: Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. ~'Senator Morgan. And then On June 27, 1973, he wrota a@ Mamorandum to the Chief FI Staff, , va enone — What does FI staff mean? Mr’, colby A foreign — hee staff. Senator Morgen. ‘Stating that the criginal Justification for smploying “Qe. inn no longer existed and raised tha question of his tarmination? me Colby. '63 was it? “Senator Morgan. June of 1963. He was tarminatad in April of 1964? . | Mr. Colby. Yes. Senator Morgan. Mow thera is no doubt in your mind but | Wnet this project was kaoyn by the Diractor of the cTta? 2 ‘ir. Colby. Approved by the Director. I don't <hi Sanator Morgan. Mr. Colby, isn't it a reasonable assuspt thet° if a project of this magnitude was to carry out the . - . ant ote assassination, it would not be created without the aporoval ef of ths Director of the CIA?’ | . Mr. Colby. -It better not bea created without my avprovel now, I will cuarantsz you. Senator Norgan. It certainly is not reasonable to assuna that even in 1961 it would heva ben so created? 1. fo Mr. Colby. I would think that tha gen lL idea. thethor heuer Pee w@ HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 91
PTION® [A104 £44) DRO VYY 10 a. 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 RL 22 235 way Feed, Sitees, D-Cey Waernington, Uo. <uuUs 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 92 Ms the apanitic project or not but the general idea is so significant, and that is tha indicatioen that Mr. Dulles did know of this act-:at tha time. Whether it was Specifically brought co the attention of his successor I could not actually ‘ testify one way or the other. ~ . Senator tNorgan. Hr. Colby, can you make any mors sansitiy the CIA then one of assassination? » a project at Mr. Colby. When fr. Schlesinger came: Wes aware of anything I knev. Senator Norgan. And this being true, aren't you satisfied in your own mind that all your directors were aware of this project ZR Rifle until such time as it was tarminated? Mr. Colby. That is 2a conclusion, Senator. give testimony on that Senator Morgan. It is a conclusion, but vou arse « Mr. Colby. Right. o a . 2 3 i J . — wag ae ~Senator Morgan. You are ths Director of the CIA and YOu have hed the expsriencs and knowledga of the-his CIA. ; 5 P Let Mme esk you, based upon your history, the history and the knowledge of the CIA that vou know of, have as Direc stor, ab * and you have gained as Direct =, aren't you satisfied that every director knew of this projszct? Mr, Colby. In the face of the statement by ‘tr. NeCona th: Op Guenny f ra worst Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 4
10 ded 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ‘eu a 22 23 Tap 24 25. NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Gi he did not know of (it, challenge. ~ fT agree with you, could not say for sura Senator Morgan. the Agency when? Mr. celby. Senator Morgen for ths racord I would I was pursuin I asked these questions plan, bsacaus2 I continued on” until en2 than was assassinets?, or not whethe - nr oe . s Wheths =sY¥ OF not been &@ part that. That is tha Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Page 93 One final question. I wontt think that ! Das Castro hins of a recrinination door to whsther or not later on wa should Gecide to look into : he should havea known ebout it, but I that statument is no*. accurate, Mr ° In 1965. + ask any other quastions excent like to sey this so I can remember why this later on. mot to try te show ghia assassinatic: fen established, ane = | to something el if thet $n1is renee to { tne Preside 4 wb ws Ld os . 1* raises a question in my mind 4s zli may tha Presifent's assassination may not ha reason I havs followed that line of questions. ‘ ‘ Pe naarent oe i PCAEs, a a
10 sa 13 14 15 16° 1? 18 , 19 20 i 21 ay 23 24 Photocopy from L Chairman Church. Senator Nart, Gerald Ford Library Senator Hart of Colorado. Mr. Colby, in connection with ~ ZR Rifle, I think you testified ox your associate said this was a multi-purpose operation, including stealing codes, and the development of the capability of what auglicid pedaat ty is called executive action. In your professional judgment, and with your history of your background in the Agency, does it wnlon any sense to you that a major operation; a major fneel vicence gathering operation of the Sort of. stealing codes, whitch’: I-assume means from’other governments, Would be mounted under the direction of a _— about whom all I know is that Mr. Harvey has a background of something like a soldier of fortune, and funced at the level, I should say, of $7500 to $10,000? Does it not suggest to you that stéealina”’cddes was in fact an internal cover for what was explicitly an assassination opération with unlimited, non-vouther financial capability? Mr. Colby. No, not that it is purely a cover. In the first place, Mr. Harvey had a very successful tour in Bexlin where he ran the Perlin tunnel operation, which was one of our major successful intelligence operations. Mr. Harvey was a very colorful figure who had his lifestyle, which is different than some others, but he had been very effective at that, and very adventuresome in that category of signals intelligence and a very .enturesome idea of that nature. ‘ az > PEM ANS - eC td GAT NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 94
1 iitie was in the assignment of Chies of the FI Division stare, 2 That stafe's. -major function is to conduct the wed teach intelligenc 2 |} work vhich must be done in the clandestine service. eww Lowe aves ore ees 4 It hindles our efforts today to penetrate into foreia-. 5 code rooms abroad, and things of that nature, and it involves , & the breaking into of safes and things, all that complicated 7 |imaterial. 8 _ Now, the thing that puts it togethers with this Serdaseatsi tigers | 9 }}executive action,:- is the high degree of compartmentation of 10 |} this material, that kind of 5 project. In other words, a i le E idl aia a stealing operation, obviously that is to be 12  kape. very, “very sécret, If you get caught in it, it has all o 13 sorts of very bad diplomatic implications, and so forth, WAND G@ rAVu 14 Therefore, — is a system of very sharp compartmentation of |} 15 |} the work of that particular group. 16 You also are dealing with some very venturesome people 17 who are willing to crawl into somebodgyiielseiis ‘code room and 18 take the chance of getting caught. 19 | So, given you have a man who had some good technical 20 |} experience, who is a venturesome type himself and is running a 21 } Program which is not too far off the requirements of high 22 — ntation, and a — high risk kind of operation, ana i EE for fr, Bissel to have selected Harvey to carry out 24 | this project seems to.me that it is compatible that he could AU TIS Street, d.0., Wasmngton, U.c. cuUuUus 25 |jbe running code-breaking brojects, or code sheeting Ls eae J 3 _—_—_ S = a te fit, iat | ney P . Photocopy from rd Libra NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 95 | Gerald ‘as *
FR ee ee ernnmrennmesnenccon ne | y aS well as this other activity. 2 How, ‘in the lifestyle at the time, not mentioning the SCcond 3 ene, Eide gets back into the recordkeeping that we have been 4 discussing. It was not to be put on the record although to be 5 done. That is a perfectly proper hypothesis, it seems to me, 6 but to say that thewcode Stealing _ only a cover I think is probably an unwarranted conclusion, Senator Hart of Colorado. What about the level of funding of $7,500 to 910,000? 10 Mr. Colby. That is not very much money for that kind of an operation. Ll . 15 Senator Hart of Colorado. Precisely. I think it is too Little. 5 14 Mr. Colby. NO. FOE a capability of that nature, it is largely a staff Operation, In other words, you use your own "Staff officers. You may hire an agent or Something, but I don't think you can draw much conclusion from the actual number on the figure one way or the other. This might not have been -the Only such project. You know, an assassination project would cost you more money than that, too. | . Senator Hart of Colorado, Absolutely. Mr. Colby. I find it hard to say that that is the only amount of money involved. I think vou et into a situation 2 : Y 3 ‘z a whera’ eemneiia nian money Would be put into either of those Jes 25 Foy a Photocopy from , ary) COTE cary rates . Eo = 7 Gerald Ford Library nK War DSS i : NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 96
yy i of activities. x wouldn't get hung up on the bureaucratic 2 aspect cf “ number of doPtses, | 3 Senator Hart of Colorado. So Mr. Harvey, if the decision 4 ||were made to try to liquidate a fcreign leader, and Mr. Racvey 5 || found the instrumentality, the individual to do that, and that - . 6 | required $100,000, all he had to do was come back in and say? 7 Mr, Colby. He could get it. 8 Mr. Schwarz. I think we should have the record réflect g ji two things. The two gentlemen talking are not eyewitnesses to 10 || What we have, been talking about. Ll . —e and related to that, for us to pursue this matter, 1Q |we must abe, and‘ must have right away, the better evidence 13 which is in the possession of the CIA, which is at least the 14 || Inspector Gencral report of 1967; and more importantly than that 15 || the interview notes reflecting whatever interviews you had 16 with thonéver you byvexyvdewed at that time or later, Co 17 Mx. Colby. These.we will make available to you to the 1g |} extent we-have them. | 19 : Mr. Breckinridse. We retained no notes. We kept only the 20 || one report that we submitted to Mr. Helms at that time, the one ‘97 || COPY: When he left the Agency he returned it to us, 22 Now, the files on the Cubella affair and the Trujitseaffai Ma: 23 l exist, and they are available. . af ee gh 24 Mr. Schwarz. Can we have it understood that, Mr. on a ' 25 Breckinridge, you will as you did with the initial material, actin I) Cam my rae Photocopy from | SEN MP aa Gerald Ford Library ‘ NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 97
u- 1 || come down sometime early next week and we can GO over it and 2 so forth? 3 "" Mr. Colby. Sure, If we can just have the same sort of Phone (Area 202) 344-pooo 5 4 |; normal ground rules..about the papers. a) Chairman Church. Sure. They always appl nl sot 7 Y § y pply unless Stig "6 Mr. Colby. I know. ? Chairman Church. -- unless we say differently. 8 Mr. Schwarz. No, just following up one more. thing on 9 ||}Senator Hart's question of some time ago. 10 Would you determine with respect to five different pexiods 11 |} of time whether, first, there was any internal evaluation | 12 ||/within the Central Intelligence Agency as to whether or nor . ; . a _ 2% ala oa Fa ad BA ae Fa Sari Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library, 2" é aad the assassination attempts should continue and, second, whether Q < 14 || there was any discussions with persons outside of the Central | 15 |} Intelligence Agency as to whether sae not he piot should continud ° 16 and the period of edna ‘ween be the initial authorization, a 19 -_ March 1960, after the Bay of Pigs, during the missile 18 risis. And, parenthetically there, wilt. you state whether it | : 19 ||}was possible Castro might have been assassinated pursuant to eo 20 an ongoing plan during a period of time when .the United States | pS . 8 2) |jand Russia were close toa nuclear ‘confrontation. The next sr. i 22 || case ts John F.Kennedy's assassination: a . 3 23 | Finally, at the time cf the break-off in June of 1965%, - : ; : p4 |iwhich I believe was Mr. Breckinridce's testimony, was anybody in ! < ; S 25 ||higher authority told that the cperation had been broken off? | | NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 98
10 13 | ; 12 ' 13 14 15 16° Li? 18 19 20 unre eros ovreee 21 22 Oe Ne ny re mng Oem aeres Because that will bear upon whether anybody in fighos authority had authorized or requested the operation. Mr. Colby. Yes, fine. | ar, Cfchwarz. Can I pick up then on another subject wich we just barely touched on lass time, Mr. Colby? | This is relaved to the question I asked you about the use of criminal elements. Senator Mathias. Before we leave this, I have one Bia: en, | Chairman Church. Senator Mathias. Senator Mathias. In light of the fact this poison pen was actually proffered on the 22nd of November, 1963, is there a scintilla of evidénce -- and was proffered to a Major in the Cuban Arny on active duty -- is there a scintilla of evidence that anyone a Cuban cGvazanenk had any knowledge or suspicic prior to that date that this was a project that tied planned? Mr. Colby. There is certainly no evidence that anyone had that information with respect to the Cubella operation. Mr. Breckinridge. No. Mr. Colby. The second phase of the Mafia operation had bee wrapped up by then, I think. Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. Mr. Colby. The individual in Cuba involved in it had take asyluwa, I think, "* a . Mr. Sreckinridge, No, the sequence is a little cifferent. . oaa's. Mr. Colby. A little later: ON Photocopy from , tw an FD Cr eye 3} Gerald Ford Library bd 2 ws Cia wd bn 3 NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 99
Ce rr incnass nears auannuaanaseacanecieeneeerennnecnnenenconeeetrte ee 1 - Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. There were people who reportedly ¢ yo 5 2 ||were mnt into Cuba, a team of three people -- and I said report: z ~- : 3 |) because we were working then through a Cuban exile leader. ¢ . : e 4 They had the assignment of recruiting additional people to 5 carry out Such plans as might be developed. We never knew What - 6 happened to those people -- whether . they came back -- only that 9 they were sent in, 8 But if you are looking for a possibility of knowledge of g jan assassination plot, conceivably those three people could be 10 the source. of it, but not that the United States Government was behind it. 11 12 Senator Mathias. But it is conceivable that Castro and e Z 3 . é 13 his government could have come upon some evidence that sore 6 ‘ ; : lot was afoot? ; 14 |? : 16 Mr. Colby. He certainly could have cross allegations, ana 16 you really must assume that various of the other kind, even 17 independent activities, or the first phase of the Mafia prosran 18 jcould have produced allegations of attempts against him with - the comment that CIA or the United. States was behind it. The 8 . 8 - possibility of that kind of allegation is just almost infinite. ’ an Senator Mathias, Particularly considering the nature of ° é the instruments that were being deployed? Seas : Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. . . is at % Mr. Breckinridge. There is another consideration...” | z 4 , ° a5 Chairman Church, You really haven't told us on the recor? | e a ot i TRH Gash sy dere ate ! ul uosar ' fret wD a aw oe e Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 100
until just now, in reGponse to Senator Mathias, just what the . ~ second phase of the Mafia connection for assassination Castro i 1 a ——— SS bl was. We really haven't had the detail except as you gave it PIVe Ge away or owen 4 |{ to Senares Mathias, 5 i: wonder if you could complete the record on this second ‘6 ||)phase, Give us all the information that you know about that. 9 Mr. Breckinridge. Before I do, one additional consideratic 8 The Cuban exile community in Miami was engaged in a great 9 deal of plotting of its own and a great deal of hyperbole, and 10 it is safe to assume that Castro also had reports of assassinatii 11 schemes or threats from that group. So there is one more Source . t. 7 12 to that sort of thing. 4 z ‘ é 13 Q « 3 14 |] 15 il 16 — 17 | 18 - | | ° 19 ; . ° 8 g 20 ‘ § 21 | - 3 22 | | ¢ 23 | . : 24 | Photocopy from ' . . Fh N " Fg Gerald Ford Library 4 a = : ® F; a) ve 2A RA SP Ey peen NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 101
fap2 oo Senator Horgan. Where is Cubella now? ‘Is he Still oy 2 prison? 3 tir. Sreckinridge. In jail on the Isle of Pines. 4 Senrtor Morgan. Are we sure of that? » mip = . 5 5 Mr. Breckinridge. I asked somzebody tha othar day and they . 6 said that is whsra they think ha is. ; 9 Senator iforgan. I just wondered whose agent he raellv was. 8 a 9 ir, Colby. 2 has been in jail for a long time if he 10 || ¥4s Castro's. 1 Senator Morgana. You testified he was able to: go in and 12 out of Cuba fairly frequently. 13 ‘Mr. Colby. Ns was an associata of Castro's, thers is 14 ao question about that, but he hed an irdanendent relation 1s with us that finally got picked up il Shisk thet. is impor*est, 16 Mi. Chairman, that wa try to keep his reme out of ény dublishsi 1? documents for that reason. Theres is no use getting hin in More troyble. 18 eo 19 ‘Sanator Schweickezr. . That is for surs. - Chairman Church. There is no argument on that score. ey Would you pleases furnish us with all of ths details es to - the second ohasa of tha ‘afia connection? - Mr. Breckisnridg Se a will give you more accurats detail na When We give you tha report, but I will rscits now the best that I can recall. AON 25 ee s\ : E 7} » a eg A A I hg [7 ems _ GO? SECRET Photocopy from 1 Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 102
wi LO dk 12 135 14 15 16 tt, 18 19 20 21 22 you. Chairman Church.. Before you do, would you just explain exactly what the relationship between CIA and Giancana and Maheu was because that is not clear in my mind. Would you develop for the Committas that wholes relations hin Mr. Breckinridge. Robert Maheu used £0 work for tba F3I and he resigned frem the FBI ard opensd a Private invasticae - . a ae = aid tive firm hare in Washington erd CIA used him from time to time for certain kinds of support activities, Chairman Church. ‘hat kind of support activities? CT Mr. Breckinridgs. ‘Oa one occasion he ohbteinsd av fame). companion for an,importent foreign leader, Chairman Church. What other kird of support? Mr. Breckinridge. In ¢ i@ early days -- and this beconzs an enbarrassm+ As neerly as I cana reconstruct, thse psople oe = Office ty a wac knew him decided to put him on 2 rstainer in th- m ror) Ih of. Security, which they did fo ie awhils, until he wes so successful he said he no longa Ny mesded the ret ainsr,, which ne ¢ didn™t do much to earn. He later got involvad rapresentina ons Of the Greek shipping interests and we wera Given the results of some of the information that he obtained from that Where thera was a fight between Miarchos end Onassis. We think he may havs had soma involvement in another forsign leader's companio nshiv when he was in this country. I don't have the details. I think we can probably reconstruct it for . # « ; . ‘ ome wee Photocopy hori 5 . yo ao ry mY 7] Gerald Ford Library CANTY CY ‘* NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 103
ll 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 23 4 “= R5 Chairman Church. Can we have the file on him? ~ Hr. Breckinridge. I think we will provide one on thet. We have ons, yes. * | | — ad Y ar Chairman, Church. Very well. Mr. Breckinridge. ‘When Maheu, left Washington and noved out west, I think first to Los Angeles, later to Las Vegas, where he becana associated with the Hughes Organization, and an introduction to *ha re whesa the question aross about Gstti Hafia, because cheney did have gambliag interests in Cuba at that tims, the Office of Sacurity, Colonsl Edwards wes asked if he could wstablish a eatin and he went to Manzu, or had somsone go to Neheu, a Sez2 if Haheu could make such an introduction. Maneu knew aman by the name of Johnny Rosselli, who lived in Los Angelas, who had ths concession for the icemakina machines Ou the strip in Las Vegas, and he axrangsa, Roselli arranged aa introduction to -- the CIA actually érrended, our ‘mai didn't meet Giancana, I don't balisvs, arrarngsd an tet¥oduchion.,. but Giancana who in turn arranged an jhe miedibon, to a Man by ths nams of Sentos trafficante. Trafficantes was the h ue éad of the Cuban gambling intarssts énd Cestro hed allowsd them. First ha had closed them, than he rsopsned them hoping to attract tourists. And Trafficants cravalled to aad from Cuba. Giancena Sarved only es the introduction to Prafficants. _—- FOL ) Saco yy New Uy ea Nita Photocopy from HW 50955 poor S53 FEY 54 oe 104
. Photocopy from ‘ ; Libra This Was all dons through Roselli. Garald. Ford B a Our people never -+ they all dealt with Roselli, who in turn deal with ths others, - Roselli was in essence @ cut-out or Served es the micdls Man. Roselli Was nsver paid for his Services, Giancana Clearly knew eventually the JOVernment associatior Roselli came to know of 1&5 though initially ha ‘was introduced to thea CIA person.as a Man who worked for Mehzu on an assicnment by a privates client. 10 So initially the cover Story was Maheu's privats client ham | who ha@ an interest insid- Cuca. Giancana never really was 12° involved subsequently. 13 He did arrange -- it was Trafficantse from than on -- énd 14 | prefticanta had a source inside Cube who had an offica, had 15 a position in the Office of the Prime Minister, fa wes belisveé 16 || ¢ N@ve access to Céstro and a coison pill wes Tevelopsd that 17 | he was to insert into Castro's food. he pills were Sent in . 18 || to tHis Mén. What we did not know at the time was the man 19 |} hea lost his job and lost his access and the pills were returned 20 bir, Colby. That is the first phase. ; 21 ; Senator Schveicker. Yould you dats thet? ' 22 “Z. Breckinridgs. That would go into the early part of « ’ 23 | 1o6x, March-April, 1961. 24 tir. Schwarz. The Pills wera given fs part of the First oO Fy ’ a lg, 25 Ilphass to a saco;d Person in Cuba; is thae correct? 6.8 es TAN Greys NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 105
G! 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19° 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Breckinridge. Just before the first Phase anded, Roselli, through Trafficante, was introduced to anothar Cuban exile leader in Miami by tne name of Anthony Varona. Again, his name is a Sensitiva matter. | Varona was the lsedsr of one of the groups that was being supsor*sd by the CIA as part of: ths preparation for tha Bay of Pigs. Vv, “a 7 @rona was unhappy with his association, with the ass cela+j With ths CIA. Hse fslt he had not bean Given encugh money. Verona had previous conta ct with the crimiral elansr in Cube and he we - 1. ee ‘ na Alc Wes approached by Roselli with Trafficants's intrcductis. <6 take on this mission. ROSe]li's story was that he Yepressntscd some private cliur+ who hed interest in Cuha. Tas Roselli identity wes apparan: as Wes Trefficantse's. Varora seaid.he knew someones who WaS in &@ restaurant *het frou » ‘i bye } ; Castro requented and then the nills were transoortad acain °. Mes fix. Schwarz. Could you state for “he record whe mads tha pills? . nny Ce Ree ee oe a oo ‘Ir. Breckinridge. Ths pills were mads in whet was then the Technical Services Division of «ha CIA. ir. Schwarz. iiad they svar made such bills before? Mr. Breckinri Ldgs. = tres rr a fa > ¢F HH 5 fe] <= fe] rh ° et Schwarz : ney 5 ' 1 i ir. Schwarz. ied they ever used Sotulinun aes a poison in eny way befors? . g i ; rae aiat Photocopy from , Gerald Ford Library ! NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 106
Mr. ‘Breckinridge. On on¢ previcus occasion Rotulinun had. been considered for usa on cigars that someone had hopad to get to Castro, and eventually ‘that never got off the ground. This was a scheme that was never approved and naver vent Yorwaré: . : " “T "5 ‘ . ' ‘ I know of that one instance in which it was considered. : . 6 ; . Botulinum was made into pills and theses pills were taken again to Cuba. ‘Castro stopped going to the restaurant whare this man was. Ths Bay of Pigs occurred and the operation wes callsd off. 10 When Harvey took over and then reactivated the sscond shas ili. ‘ : .| in April of 1962, they weat back to Varona, and ons of ths . -_ strange things is that Varona started off with the repatition 13 ‘ Co. ; £ anal restaurant aporoach, which I think caused rr pf (ec Oo n Ls re son2 quzstion as to ths gan-between what we wars told axa 15 ; _ . what was happening. 6 . . a —_—T i Varona aft=r this dida'+t materialize. Varone “then stetz-a Ly P- thet he had s]ent threas Mea inte Cuba whose jok was to rscrui- my i 5 nw a S92: S bs . 18 additional psople for such pl mey dsveloo. fs later 19 planned to send in threes mor= neople ‘So Wa don't belisvs they 20 éver Went. The missile crisis intervened. Thers ware 2 number Oe tee wwe el of delays and we don't think they ever did go in. a2 The first tnars2 men, if in fact they did go in -- we 25 don't know who they were, we don't know what they did, we - ete tt or 24 a't kKaow whether they cams out or not ; : i e : ; 25 As a matter of interest, tha man who was to go back -- ‘ arg re) Si: A i ane . f: G2 i Sit “A ee Z it Photocopy from { Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 107
Gt “LO Ld. 12 13 14 15 16 av 18 19 20 ' COnnsctions. Chairman Church. . have been captured hy could havs the actual backers of With a mamber of ths Syndicatz with whom he The people who daalt with % is possibla they went in and could Castro? that Senator “iogan asked earlier, whut they known -- these men we don't believs could have known the oderation, bacauss Varona Wes dealing nad pravious Verona felt that Was discrset and careful. But those man could have be=n ceptured. Supplisd ths Chairman Church. 2s Mr. Breckinridgs. Chairmen Church. Me, Colby. From ~Chafrman Church. s2nt? not they were we _Mr. Breckinridgs. am not surs it exists As I reviewed praDaration for thes ca Varona had told us at hs was using this rest NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 108 . They .could hevz Sent from -- TO be Sent Shs United States, And why is it vou den'+ know Whether or The qusstion exists in my mind. I is other peovls's minds. record, when we got the record pack, in inguiries, I was struck by the fact that tne vary end of tha firs+ phass eurant, and when a year later the ohasa Dis beed ot Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
G&! 10 il 12 13 hott a et od 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22 24 410 # test Uireet, &.c., wrasningion, W.u. <UUVa 25 19 wes reactivated, the Same story was used and alrzady had bean proven not to be so. Later hea talked in general berm souk the thrae men ard I — to develop some Fsservation in my mind as to whstner or not Varona hed in fact told us the truth. | That is purely sveculation on my part. Mr. Colby. This is a problem ws liva with in the intellig (tr business. ‘When you ars not able to be in direct contact, for ‘ good rsasons you are subject to fabrication, particularly if there is some money involved. . “Cha irinan Church. Did the CIA, in connection with phass One OF Phasa two, vay any of thes agents for their services? Mr. Breckinridge. In ohase ons I think we peid exn monsy. In phase two We gave money to Varona. ix. Schwarz. Amd to “Roselli? (? 3 ° wi a) w ke ly, Breckinridge. Ws paid expense money for Roselli. fix. Schwarz. You paid hin money to buy guns? ° Mr. Breckinridgs. I was going to ts11 the gun story. “Varona Wanted money andl guns and soms of «the equinpnsant that ne spscified could be obtainsd only from the United States military. And the equipment that was acquired at that time rh did not include that kind of coulpment. It included equivment that could be obtained from other sources end excluded U.S. | military equinmsat. It was provided through ths assistance | of the Hiami station. A U-Haul truck was micke2 up ond Jaliver..: i --.@ j Prati Photocopy from Veal? CFR) wy te Tet | Gerald Ford Library i NW 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 109
1 2 G1 10 ll 12 13 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 25 in ths plot? I know. ~ Mr. Breckinridge. The First man who had tha job in the Offica of the Prime’ Minister, this man did get kickbacks fron the criminals. remamber. MWe I think that must be the one you took refuge in the Venezuelan enbassy and stayed there until He finally was given safe conduct to pass out. The Nexican embassy took over From Venezuela. Cuba broke diplematic relations. He continued to be & political refuges in that embassy until ths fall of 1964. Chairman Church. What was Varona's motive for varticinatink . 4 . . tir. Breckinrid€g2. Verona was one of thea exils leaders who wanted to overthrow Castro. He wantsd more firancing ther he had. He would cocperats with anyons. 2 ’ - Photocopy from ~ ; Gerald Ford Library . . 2M OS, wig sai * e ei ° , ; % mt P ay EADY Py eee yxen :. we NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 110
10 nme 13 14 15 16 a he 18 | 19 20 21 OI. 2 24 25 Mr. Schwarz. I would like to pick up on the discussion we had. | Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz has five minutes more, and we will conclude, and I would 12%. to ask the Committee cc stay on for ten rhe minutes for an executive session. Mr. Schwarz. In the discussion we had on the use of criminal elements, we have dealt with the Castro operation, In the middle of the book supplied to us by Mr. Breckinridge earlier this week, there is a discussion about the 0 eh Now, is it a fact that Q. J. Win was the agent, or asset, however you would refer to him, who apparently was considered for the effcrt to assassinate Lumumba, which never tock place; is that right? Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. operation, and the Agent Q. J. Win, ‘ =| Mz. Schwarz. Now, is'it accurate that Q. J. Win operated in, Europe trying to spot and assess individuals whom the Agency could.use’in safecracking orerations? Mr. Colby. This is what is reported, and it is quite possible. CS Hr. Breckinridge. The record indicates that. Mc. Schwarz. And is it further so that one of the CIA officers who first met Q. J. Win in Luxembourg, Was on a- trip averseas to find safecrackers and éocunent suppliers? Me. Colby. Yes, that is what it says . a "as, Photocopy from xr Gir rene Gerald Ford Library To a WASsee ‘ - NW 50955 Doocld:32112724 Page 111
10 11 12. 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 ” 2s | Mr. Schwarz. Now, just as a matter of historical record, as well. It is an extensive story but I don't know the facts. report from the Inspectcr General leading up to that in “ay ee iis the 68s the predecessor of the CIA in some sense? | Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. | : Mr. €chwarz. ts it correct that “Lucky" Luciano was used to help the: oss in connection with operaticns in Italy during the Second World War? Mr. Colby. I don't know, but I have heard that story -Mr, Schwarz. -For the record, Mr. Luciano was a Mafia figure who had been a from the United States, or was in jail in the United States? Mr. Colby. Was in jail, I guess, and was later aepanted after the War. Mr. Schwarz. Now, in connection with the instructions whic: you issued in 1973 concerning activities outside of the Charter i. ee ce ees aa —_ Wof the CIA, you received, as we went through the other day, a 1973? ‘ e OS Mr. Colby. That is right. gs gh Mr. Schwarz. And was part of the report that the CIA had itself conducted for local police departments in Washington, Arlington, Fairfax and Alexandria, during the pericd 1968 and lates, photography, ‘asic audio and ccuntersabotage; and . addition, . this is what I particularly call your attention to, i . Photocopy from ! 1969, a series of classes in items which included basics in . | Gerald Ford Library | HW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 112
. 22 | ney 10 ul 12 135 14 15 16 1? 18 L9 20 el 23 24 25 locks ong picks and surreptitious ‘entry? . Nr. Colby, Yes, sir. Mr. Salwawe:, ‘I am now reading from pages 225 and 226 of - the 694 Lages, which Iwill mart: as Exhibit No. 6, ‘. (The above-mentioned document was marked as Colby Exhibit #0, 6 for identification.) Mr. Sree, Is it the fact that, for example, hetween October 7 and October 18, 1968, the cra conducted a course for the Washington Police Department in the subject of Surreptitious entry? | Mr. Colby. It was included in that, yes, Mr. Schwarz, What was the purpose of conducting such a course? Mr. Colby. i¥e had a relationship with various Police departments around the country. They from time to time would like to learn our knowledge of certain Subjects that are quite unique to’ the CIA. There are a number of things that we have to do in CIA which are quite frankly outside the norm of mest other agencies of the Government. Chairman Church. Doesn't surreptitious entry refer to.-:-~ illegal entry? Mr. Colby. Going in secretly, that is ham, te m2ans . Entering secretly in some fashion or Other, yes. Chairman Church. That is an illegal activity for local Teal Oe per Photocopy from Wie? ve hs ai hols i Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 113
; 7 4 .llpolice, is it not? . , . Mr. Colby. Presumably, ves, Ss Chairman Church, Why is CIA conducting courses teaching 4 lllocal police illegal activity, ke. to conduct illegal ope.ations 5 Mr. Colby. <I think at that _— iix.. Chairman, that was 6 lat the request of the police department of that area, that ‘they 7 were interested in this thing, and there is a — Clement 8 lof it. In —— to know how to protect against Something, it 9 |}is well to know how it is actually conducted. 10 Chairman Church. Do you construe this activity to be ee tenes ences 12 | activities? 8 11 cm the law, the basic statute which restricts your domestic Mr. Colby. I don't think it is a violation of the law, 14 ba. Chairman. Oe ee ee Spee 15 | I did give some directive on that in 1973, that we not 16 engag? in this anymore, in compliance with the spirit of the 0 + qmmeee cm noes = orem e + 17 |} amendment to the Law Enforcement Assistance Adninistration 18 Act, syhich says that CIA will not Provide support to the LEAA 19 |!in its assistance to local police departments. And as far as 20 | I was concerned, that is a policy that they eon't want CIA in | 21 |} touch with local police departments, ‘ | 26 The fact of sharing Our Knowledge of techniques with a } | 235 | local police department does not in my mind get us into actually; H ' 24 | concucting domestic police activity, There is a difference | here. a . fy RAE ating, | na ’ Gaensy | Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 114 !
5 - 6 q 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 us 16 |) 17 18 19 |} 3 °° . 2 | 2 23 : 24 | : 25 WARD & PAUL Chairman Church. Yes. But apart from the technical question of your jurisdiction, when you engage ee local police departments how to conduct break-ins, surreptitious break-ins, you are teaching them how to break the law. Mr. Colby. You are teaching them how the law is broken. -Chairman Church. That is right. — oy Mr. Colby. Which .can be useful to hen Jn their knowledue of how the law is broken, the techniques that are feasible, Chairman Church. Or can be useful to them in knowing how to break the law? Mr. Colby. It could. It is an item of information that they can use in ahy way they wish, either properly or improperly: Mr. Schwarz. Are you aware of any Situations where govern- mental officials, either state, local or Federal, have in fact engaged in break-ins within the United States? Mr. Colby. I know of certain situations related to foreign! | | | workman or something of that nature, and I think in that history! intelligence operations where access to appropriate targets has been obtained either through subterfuge of pretending to be a there are some cases of actual break-ins. , | . . | Now, I assure you, Mr. Chairman, we have heen conducting : break-ins abroad. There is no question about that. That is, we train our people to be able to do that. | Chairman Church. That is not the question I am raising with you. * ; wots a = 3 wy hao Sot we Lhe Photocopy from NW 50955 DoclId:32112724 Page 115 Gerald Ford Library
bd ‘ * . 2 In other words, these courses, it is my inpression, were. ~ 3 |} generalized discussions of techniques. -They were not particular 4 || hancholding on conducting a specific Operation, 5 I think I am accurate in that statement. -¢ -  -Mr. Smothers, Mr. Colby, just a couple of quick questions, | 9 First, with regard to the mak memoranda or diaries you g fj might have of former directors, are those still on Agenep——b g || Premises? Do you have those matters Still there that : ems SC 10 left by former Directors? | 11 Mr. Colby. Certain ones we do. I don't know eet any thet | we don't have. | ra ta eee new e As far as I am concerned, they-.are Agency property, an@ wh 1S | 14 I leave I am going to walk out wlicheut any paper. Mr. Smothers, With respect chant to the inquiries you have is 16 made with Sema | to information in the files” On asSassinations, 17 have these incuiries extended to an examination of these files 18 | of formers Directors? | Mr. Breckinridge. In one or two instances on specific 20 points we have made inquiries. We have. not gone: through the 2) eles in general for that SuREweA . 20 Mr. Colby. We have gone through that collection I know of 24 Mr, Helms' files, I don't know of any specific set of files called Mr. MeCone's files, | | | | | 24 25 There is an executive registry where my correspondence is Photocopy from v4 vere mn recy - tas PVD Crs ree i Gerald Ford Library Se (9 ds ba Ne8 iba bot a NW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 116
10 11 12 14 15 16° 17 18 19 20 el 23 25 = Oe kept, for instance, ~ Mr. Snehevin, What I am Searching for is the situation Where the generic classification of materials might somchow have riot been complete enough for us to g2t particular Knowledge; and I was wenueE sng prior to our next saan if a search oriented with respect to ‘the issue of lennciidleedern might be a fruitful exercise? 3 — | Mr. Colby. Knowledge by previous directors Of soecifics on this topic? | Mr. Smothers. Yes. | . | Mr. Colby. I think it is eaSy for Mr. Helms. I think ee we have gone through Ais fies, ~ don’t know of any se;arate. ee, set of files on Mr. Dulles or Mr. McCone. We will look. , senator Mondale. There is a reference. to John McCone's. files in one of the memos that I looked at this morning, Mx. Colby. I will — that, Senator. Chairman Church. That is a good point, and I an glad you have -raised it. | I think we will conclude the hearing at this point with the Magers taney y Mr. Colby, we will be back in touch with you. chadetian Church. Yes, ve i think that next week we will not have any formal meetings of the. Comittee, owing to the recess, but we will then, I think, we are going to have to go into tri-weekly meetings, | ! Mr. Colby. Surely. Many times, I think, Mr. Chairman, ..7 + =f af i { Photocopy from ee Ba r CUP VEY pares Gerald Ford Library 7 oes 2 REE SH 8 Sue Ue NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 117
, 1 beginning after the recess, so we can step up the ‘Pace Er he 2 «investigation. S Senator Mondale. If they could get the Lansdale memo, } 4 Mr. Colby. ‘I will do. that tis afternoon. 5 I would like to add two things that have come to my attentid: 6 yon the subject of assassinations; both of which are allegations, 2 ||both of which have been knocked down, © 8 Tare WaS an allegation, some man has alleged es he was | 9 Working or conducting an aSSasSination in Colcubta, and we have | 10 || looked into .the specifics of it, and there is sbeolatery nothing! 11 |jto it. X thought I would mention it. 1 have the facts here ‘Le |) ahd wild include them at Sone time is hese is another allegation that one of cur officers 14 | had some Knowledge of an attempt against Chou Cn-Lai, and he has; written me a note that points out that it is imsossible for that! | | | 15 18 to have happened because he wasn't in the place at the tire. 17 Chairman Church. Since they are allegations into which 18 I you bave ‘inquired, I think you should make the papers available, _ 19 | Mr. Colby. I will make sure the staff gets those. oe rs Chairman Church, ‘Thank you very much, : 21 Mr. Knoche. Could I point out, I think we have the answer ‘ 92 || to the photographs. 93 There were seven of these Photographs taken at a@ifferent 7 oq || angies at the same tine, but absolutely eifferent tine intervals; 05 Curing the time that the police had these men: in custody. | Photocopy from ce ae ee ee Gerald Ford Library NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 118
[i ee ey ee a me eS Gt 10 aide Ls. 13 14 15 16 17 18 — “19 20 21 22 24 25 Mr. Kn , S 7 Knoche. I am not sure, 1 am not certain for that ~ Particular board that you were looking at With the blowup, they took this one of the seven Photo : e graph with gives the best opportunity ep look at the face Mr. Colby. So they were Separate photographs Chairman. Church. Yes, M o x 4 i r. Knoche.. I will be Glad to leave that with you if you would like to have it for your file (Whereupon, at 12:30 o'clock P-m., the Comnittee recessed subject to the call of the Chair.) Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library * ‘ ~~ NW 50955 DocId:32112724 Page 119 Te a) | | | |