(2 la | s gu Ba) ~ it N if i Hy _ ! ~ } ~ / ~ : i] = i = ao < - ~ | ™ t = i0 4 7 HI ~ 4 wt iy « il = 14 4 it i = id} = F wn a m if a ‘ > is = ie ] 2 y mall te t ~ ia: : j ‘ Hy ta - 4 ¢ 7 . i i o i = a pos 3} _ { n i _ 5 | i~ 7 H ~ | < S20 | Bes 2. | wie an 3} e.*< te an | oo | 7: a ac il ss i 239 CONFIDENTIAL to the same point with him. But this is off the record -~ this is not off the record. I mean, this is just a joke. Mr. Goldsmith. Referring again to 201, to CIA number 201, this is a memo that was prepared apparently by Mr. Hartman. Do you know at whose request Mr. Hartman would have prepared this memo dated in 1975? Mr. Rocca. He prepared it at my request, I think. Mr. Goldsmith. No, this memo -~ well, you were no longer with the Agency formally in 1975. Would he have prepared this memo for you in 1975? Mr. Rocca. I was still on contract with him, and this was still, this was certainly pertinent. to what the Rockefeller Commission was doing. It is my recollection, — inasmuch as I have already recalled it in part -- you see, when I.mentioned that your previous question had referred to 1963, well, I recall that part where he did refer to 1963. Mr. Goldsmith. So, in 1975, you asked -- Mr. Rocca. I simply asked him to do this because I recalled that we had at my instance undertaken within the staff on my own responsibility this kind of thing. Mr. Goldsmith. What was the purpose of your asking him to prepare this memo in 1975? Mr. Rocca. To get on the record his recollections of co PIDENTIAL : AL OSRSOM REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Docld:32263409 Paye 242 ALO SERSOM REPOR cS i
65% - 2545 20024 (202) eC, bo. VASHTHG TON , REPORTERS BUTEA TNG , aU, S 300 7TH STREET, Docld: 322763409 nN 4 de in et ey ray ~~ “I “a mR te. 4 a a i a what had happened in 1963 with respect to this gross allegation. Mr. Goldsmith. So, by asking him to do that, were 240 you recognizing that Mr. Hartman had not gotten on the record | in 1963 when he conducted the initial investigation? Mr. Rocca. No, no. At that time he did this and reported to me. It was a purely internal matter. But by 1975, it seemed to me worthy of putting down on the record. Mr. Goldsmith. But in 1963 it was not put in the record? Mr. Rocca, As far as I know, it was not. Let me say that we were, of course, hamstrung by allegations in the record which we informally checked out in that fashion. So, I mean, this was perfectly, I think, normal. ‘Mr. Goldsmith. I note that the 1975 memorandum goes -into very great detail as to all the steps that Mr. Hartman took to determine whether Oswald had any connection with the Agency .. Does this extensive detail strike you as somewhat unusual for a memorandum written twelve years after the investigation was actually conducted? Mr. Rocca. No, I told him to simply put down everything he could recall Con PrFIDENTIAL LRERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC. it ALMERSS Paye 243 meee LON
wt = SQ : om ~ ° = | t i wt 2 | ~ 1 - ! aU = H t ~ 7 ~ i | nN a: ~ co} = ™ ‘ i . 3 SS : c t ~ - c VAST UCTON , a zibiay, _ ta BUTE TH ri EB tik . | = os - / “ Vy | - \ ~ | a 3 | in | = i; o rT = 720 | i ! t dl 4 i ik hi H s) rc zw | te | » i 241 about where he had gone. | Mr. Goldsmith. Now, I notice that in.CIA number 2106, letter E, he indicates that through the Security Research Section of the Office of Security, he had the security files checked. There was no record of Oswald. Now, in fact, the Security Office did have a record on Oswald in 1963. Did that strike you as an incongruous -- Mr. Rocca. I don't think that view is referring to -~: that that was. referring necessarily to the topic of the interest, namely that there was any kind of a relationship with him that involved the Agency, or else they simply didn't tell him. It certainly would be incongruous if they had a file. Mr. Goldsmith. Well, we have seen several Office of Security documents pertaining to Oswald, preassassination. Mr. Rocca. That's right, and you have to know which office in the Office of Security you are talking to. I can't judge this one at all, except in terms of these two elements: (a) that it may have been a part of the Ofice of Security that literally didn't have a file; or that the file that they showed him was totally derivative, consisting of press i i and other well known items, and therefore he did not consider . it really new information or significant information within the terms of the memorandum. Mr. Goldsmith. Now, on CIA number 2108, he indicates f©eo™uwFIDENTIATS —_ DERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC. i ALES Docld:32763409 Pate 244 , ; ~~
242 CONFIDENTIAL i i that there are five documents which had been sent to the Agency > | before the assassination. "Two of the documents have been to sent to us" -~ referring to the Agency -- "by the FBI, two da by the Department of State, and one by the U.S. Navy." or at least his list indicated that there were more than = -So, in other words, Mr.Hartman felt that prior to the |, ; { Soy ; . ._! “ “ | assassination there were five documents from other agencies in z i S - i . { = 7 | Oswald's 201 file.. i = mI Mr. Rocca. Well, some of them you have actually o 7] shown me, or I thought so -- I mean, they seem to:have been | Foal ‘| - ig lo. . = ‘* | in the file. ety (Pause) . ~ Mr. Goldsmith. Off the record. @ eq | (Discussion off the record.) ° si Mr.. Rocca. Is the point whether it is five or one? = 4 i eI | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Burke is attempting to locate the | * aan document that I was going to refer you to at this point. * wy The specific oné I have in mind is a -- = | Mr. Rocca. Well, I can check this. record against the | nn H . = 3 | : : : = F | actual records in the files. I assume that this represented | = 39 | | | | | moo 8 his best statement.. eee 3 f Mr. Goldsmith. In fact, that statement contradicts ; OSE i : @ oR “| the listing of documents that was given to the Warren Commission - | by Mr. Helms in 1964. Mr. Helms indicated that. there were, 4 Wa any five documents received from otheragencies. con PIDENTIAZL O) (on) at ALS RSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. ti id Docld:322763409 Page 245
CONFIDENTIAL 243 Mr. Rocca. Well, Mr. Hartman erred, then, or at least > I would assume on this, unless he actually had some kind of f i ae | - | consultation with the record, which he could have had, inasmuch t | as these materials were at hand. I would say that there is | 0 = : no doubt that -- in other words, there is no definitive | $ significance to be attached to that expression. On recounting ~ = df es | he may find six, or he may find four. He was not, I think, | = : \ = 2 | in putting this memorandum together -- | “ i S | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what a DBA is? | = ia | Mr. Rocca. DBA, I would judge, is a bureau, is a | & f = ne bureau indicator. | Mr. Goldsmith. According to that memorandum by Mr. Helms, there were substantially more than five documents HPL TUG re \ in the file. I am wondering what the reason forithe inconsis- tency is between the Helms record and the Hartman memo. REPORTERS a, 5 ' I | j i i Mr. Rocca. I think that you could undoubtedly work . i | it out: and it would turn out to be something completely | for bureau material. 300 ITH STREET, a | (excusable) because the DBA memo -- this is a cryptonym i | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Burke has located the document. According to this document, which is CIA number 2038, prior to the assassination, included in Oswald's 201 file were seven documents from the FBI, ten from the Department of State, two from the Department of Navy, one from the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and then there were coNnPFIDENTIAL i FSON SEPORTING COMPANY. INC. ALIERSON AE: Docld:32263409 Patje 246 ane
(o) o z Fr I DENTIAL 244 internal CIA documents and newspaper clippings. Mr. Rocca. So, he is just wrong. tu His talley is in error. Mr. Goldsmith. Now, at the bottom of 2038 there is yr ; Mr. Goldsmith. Assuming things were done in the ~ : a notation which I would like you to review. In parentheses i re 7 | _ ; it indicates "inventory of documents contained in file cs 3! ~ 7 attached for all but addressee." Ss Let me bring that to your attention and see if you can: = explain that to me. : yo = a Mr. Rocca. Oh, we did not attach the actual documents: = i to anybody but the addressee. We gave them just a list of : : i | those documents, apparently. That would:be my reading of = 33 @ 2 | this. : = , : g  y Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. = 4.4 2 oo Mr. Rocca. I mean, it would have required a large Qo: 1 = scale reproduction. rae . : = ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Would a file search conducted by Sg! ! e | Mx. Hartman in 1963 definitely have resolved the question of | = rg | = whether Oswald was ever connected with the Agency in any ; = 29 | | 7 | way? | | ee ra 4 ; * See | Mr. Rocca. As far as I'm concerned it would have. ed 4 : i | ordinary course of business. i Mr. Rocca. Assuming that he had checked all the places that he had said he checked and that we knew about, that would : : CONFIDENTIAL ! d SOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC. it ALDERSS Docld:322763409 Paie 247
245 WwW t have been definitive. Mr.. Goldsmith. Now, you: indicated earlier that you aq did not regard it unusual that Oswald's 201 file was opened over a year after the first indication of his giving information de | | 2 | < * | to the Soviets was. obtained by the Agency. | 2 ‘| Mr. Rocca. But only within a few months of the | x | & "| receipt of the first information regarding this’ as I under- : : a | stood it. 3 : ; : < 73 Mr. Goldsmith. Well, the information was initially : = ic | received in October of 1959. The file was opened in 2 - December of 1960, over a year after the initial receipt of 3 i : Bo the information. , ® aS ‘3 In October or November of 1960, the State Department = ey sent information and it was sometime after the State Department g i communicated to you and Oswald that the file was opened. Px i ; is Mr. Rocca. In other words, we're arguing here the ‘ 7 stimulus and how close to the action the stimulus was. : $ | Mr. Goldsmith. Exactly. | “ | E aa Mr. Rocca. I'm saying that the stimulus -- speaking | for Miss Edgerter, I don't know what prompted her to do this, SE or the timing, because it was not my component. I had no @ wey | Knowledge that the action even was being done. In fact, ! I was pleasantly surprised on the 23rd, which was a Friday, to know that we -- and I learned this on Saturday morning when I went into the office -- that we even had a 201 on Ry Cc ON PIDENTIATLS wens et mente memes ANIU ALDERSON HEPORTING COMPANY, INC. DoclId: 322763409 Page 246
CON FIDENTIAL 246 | him. * So, I'm simply giving you my best guess, Mr. Goldsmith. 2° | | And I don't regard it as unusual. ® ” ) Mr. Goldsmith. Do you regard the fact that the Agency | “ "i never debriefed Oswald or that there is no record of sucha | 3 i w { “8 | debriefing upon Oswald's return from the Soviet Union as - 7 } unusual in any way? f S 2 if e i Mr. Rocca. No, not at all. ~ i ~ : Mr.Goldsmith, Why not? S i Mr. Rocca. Because under the delimitations agreement, | S i = i he was strictly the Navy's baby, and the FBI's baby, and 2 : | that is it. = i = ny . Le nee . Lo © = : Mr. Goldsmith. Even though he may have had..information = ,, il = IS 4 . : : ; S i Mr. Rocca. I'm going to Indian wrestle with you on ; . 4 this. one. | = i ut > i = | -Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Rocca, I want to indicate to you | & | that, again, you should not infer from my line of questioning . = | | ~ , that we -- = 20 | i Mr. Rocca. I'm not. I'm joking. I'm joking. the resolution of this issue. And, I don't want to arm | Ree : Mr. Golidsmith. -- are predisposed in any way towards Z | | | | | | 1 | 4° wrestle with you. Mr. Rocca. Well, you are aware of the delimitations agreement and the specifications that it sets out with respect COMP IDENTIAL ALOERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC. a § RS Docld: 32263409 Page 249 “
247 CONFIDENTIAL i | to the approaches to and the responsibilities for the security, \ | | ! ro of members of the Armed Forces, former members of the Armed Cos) Forces. It's a very, very strictly adhered to code that rvs Mr, Over and the members of the domestic community drew t : - up in 1940, and which we respected very, very carefully. ! 2 7 This is a decentralized approach to security. It has its =| | S 7 disadvantages and any kind of cooperation that you get has to | S 7 come from -- on cases, has to come from mutually arrived at | ~ it | © a agreement. = a And this man, as a Navy man, a Marine, was strictly : : n | their baby. And that would be my answer to it. ; “3 = 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. What is the’ formal name given to this | rd : 13 agreement between -- | ; am Mr. Rocca. It is called the Delimitations Agreement. : | It is a primary document in trying to understand the very : iE | grave difficulties we have in working against an integrated | adversary. ! : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. And this agreement was promulgated in E fF 1940, roughly? : = 20 | Mr. Rocca. 1940, and revised at various times > : cee periodically. It still exists and it governs and lays down @ aN the ground rules... “ And, if anyone asked me in R & A at that time whether or not we should debrief this man, the first thing that would a n have come to my mind was stay away from it, it's a Navy 6) ON FPIDENTIAZ j ‘ Hl i i] ALDCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 322763409 Page 250
CONFIDENTIAL 248 matter, a Marine matter, and a Bureau matter, and they should | i have priority. | | ww No one did, incidentally. | de Mr. Goldsmith. Even though Oswald may have had t 2 my the trip on a direct flight from London to Helsinki on : ae information of a positive intelligence nature, in other words, 5 3 | not only did Oswald pose an interest to the American ! ~ . | 7 intelligence community because he may have been a counter | = t : 3 intelligence security threat, but he also had access to : 9 L information on the Soviet Union that might have been of ! = 2 positive intelligence significance, is your position still | : that no component within the Agency would have had an * 2 interest in debriefing him? @ 2 Mr. Rocca. Would not have had a legitimate interest : = i = ‘¢ on its own to have done this. It:would have had to ! 3 is _ coordinate with the Navy or with whatever component had the ~ = i 7 : 8 | responsibility under the Delimitations Agreement. = i : i. -Mr. Goldsmith. Despite the fact that Oswald may have | : ey had positive intelligence information? E eI Mr.. Rocca. Indeed, indeed. : 5 = Mr. Goldsmith. Please refer to CIA number 2137, | sag" | which is a memo for Mr. Rankin dated 1 July, 1964, specifically tea = dealing with the question of how Oswald was able to make | October 10, 1959 and arrive at his downtown hotel in a= a ao Helsinki: by midnight of the same day, when the only flight hos IDEN TIAL BLEERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld:322763409 Paie 251 ite AS ES