HW 53716 I waited a little and then I decided simply to say that it does not happen so (ne byvayet tak). You could have answered me: "Perhaps at home, perhaps in the office,' etc., but you are trying to state that ((it was)) definitely at home. Then I, knowing that this is not done at home, you must give me some kind of foundation ((for)) why, why this was so. Why at home? I can give the grounds =~ because I even do not remember, mother, this about relatives, and my mother , she was studying in the courses, in the courses, in the period when she met father, in the courses, but for the life of me; and then I do not remember what years she was studying, where, what. As concerns father, I know where he worked, there in Leningrad, the . street, the plant, such and such years, but I do not remember the details about mother; therefore, I, I remember well that I filled out the questionnaire at home. I asked mother, "But how ((shall I)) put ((about)) you here?"... - I agree with this completely . More, I can tell you _- if you do not know or, perhaps, do not wish to say; there is no secret about this, the whole world knows about it -- for the person who fills out a questionnaire for the first time for the KGB, it is rather difficult: there is quite a number of questions about both mother and father, etc., ((the answers to)) which the son perhaps does not know at all.... And absolutely does not know. And. therefore I say.... This is done in the majority of ((such)) cases -- the person sits, reads the questionnaire, ((sees)) approximately what kind of questions ((there are)), and then collects the information from his father, mother, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, or ((about)) who((ever)) else there was or was not, and then he comes the next time and DoclId: 327404699 Page 57
| HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 53 f_ a > QU finishes ((the questionnaire)), and so forth. () And finishes ((it)), I understand this. I filled ((it)) out at home, filled ((it)) out at home. What then...? ((Interrupts) ) One minute; I do not remember, but I do not remember exactly whether this Personnel man (kadrovik) gave me the questionnair to fill out. ((But)) then what did I hand over to him? I remember I went over, rang him up, I gave him some documents. And at that time, you understand, I have recalled another detail, when I already had begun work in March, on the first day I came SHUBNYAKOV talked with me; SHUBNYAKOV rang up GORBATENKO; GORBATENKO . acting chief of the department (otdel) -- took me to his office, and that day or the next the Personnel man (kadrovik) who previously was in the Second Chief Directorate (vo Vtorom Glavke) -- the one, the Personnel man, who previously had been assigned (chislilsya) as an officer of the Second Directorate (Vtoroye Upravleniye) -- phoned me, He called me ((to come)) to his office ((''to himself" - k sebe)), here on the sixth floor in Building 2, the corridor, and gave me the questionnaires and ((Without certainty)) the biographies to fill out. | It may be that I am confused here; maybe I did not. fill out anything for Personnel there, but what I filled out -- what I am remember ing _. is that which I received from SAKHAROV. Well, I cannot say. I am afraid of tangling myself up, etc. Of course, it is possible to believe what you have said -- that it happened the second time, etc. _- but, you see, I do not want to make any assumptions; you are a smart enough fellow and, having thought for some time and with some leading questions, I think ((you are)) of a condition to give a more or less satisfactory answer.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 59 No, no. iy would wish that you would avoid such cases; then we will find a common language far more simply. Then it will be better if I say straight out that I do not remember this, I do not remember. If I will say that I suppose that it must be so, ((then)) it must be so, because I do not remember in detail ((the answer to)) this question. We are talking about the questionnaire. Of course, each KGB employee who has written it several times cannot, of course, say that he does not remember. You understand that a person who has filled it out several times cannot say that "I do not remember", I do not remember how many times I filled it out. ((XG =~ A and B speak at the same time. )) ..el am speaking in general about the questionnaire and what the questionnaire of an employee.... ..el am saying that I filled ((it)) out several times over my period of work (na protyazhenii raboty). I filled ((it)) out several times. One more question... a question of the questionnaire; you say, then, that only "Questionnaire (Anketa)", and nothing more, is written on the questionnaire; please.... No.... Each question (1G). What is the questionnaire itself called? Here ((is)) a questionnaire; this word, "Questionnaire (Anketa)" ((is)
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 60 CC -56- | aed there; that is not all; there is something else. The questionnaire. Well, there at the top ((there)) is, at the top, the word, some kind of form, the deuce knows, Form (forma)... 2 a, 21 or 2 b, but I do not remember. O.K. ((in English) ) I am not even thinking about trying to remember what kind of form, although I know this, etc. No one is asking you whether this was form 27 or 26, 2b or 2d, or whatever; no one pays attention to this. It is (Eto idet) as if ruled (graflenaya), well, as if ruled, the question.... Understand me. A KGB employee who has completed the questionnaire several times will know the name (nazvaniye) of this questionnaire, "Questionnaire (Anketa)'', and ((that is)) all. No. I have no intention of telling you. (Cre is)) not necessary to tell. I think the day will come ((when)) I simply will show you. ((It is)) not necessary. I will show ((you)). I know that I filled ((it)) out more than once (ne raz): "“Questionna: (Anketa)", ((and that is)) all.
HW 53716 SECRET f : Le - 57 - It certainly is not all (Vot imenno chto ne vse). I want to understand: what is the main point of this ((''where is the dog buried?" «= gde zhe sobaka zaryta))? I do not know what it is (gde ona zaryta). If you filled ((it)) out several times, if you worked there 11 years, then you will tell exactly what this questionnaire is called, because this.... ((Interrupts)) You (XG) because of one form. The form is ((number)) 21 or, let us assume, ((it is)) the fifteenth, and a number (kolichestvo) of questions depend upon this. We understand what we are talking about and of which questionnaire (anketa) we are speaking. Do we understand each other? It is the comprehensive (Cor "expanded" - rasshirennaya)), it is the comprehensive questionnaire, and ((that is)) all. Well ((in English)). And therefore, of course, when you were talking with the other people, I want to believe everything you are talking about, but when you stop in the middle of a sentence, ((then)) it raises a question with me of whether you do not want to tell me ((something)), when the whole world already knows this questionnaire, from the first question to the last, and how many pages are in it; but when I am talking with a former employee, one who was the same as I and worked ((there)) 11 years, and he cannot tell me its name (nazvaniye eye), this must, of course, raise some kind of question with me. I do not know what it raises with you. ((It is called)) "Questionnaire (Anketa)", ((That is)) all. DoclId: 327404699 Page 61
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 62 SECRES__ a _~ QL =- 358 - Let us assume that there were two (?questionnaires?), but not complete (polnyye), and -- as they say -- not ((wholly)) satisfying, and it has not cleared up our question of.... Excuse me, I cannot help you.... Our question of what business you had (o tom, kak Vy imeli delo) with these questionnaires, when you started ((work)) or even after you had been working? I filled out the questionnaire in two copies, I filled out the biography, ((that is)) I did not fill ((it)) out, but wrote the biography in two copies. After you talked with ROZHENKO -- in Building 12, you said -= how much time passed before you found yourself in Building 2 for the first time? In March. When, approximately; do you remember? ((Long pause)) (?Ah?) The middle of March. ((XG = B speaks in low, "unreadable" voice) ) We will return to ((talk about)) the middle of March. I would like to talk with you == inasmuch as I was at STALIN's funeral and, if one may say so, took an active part at that time -- I would like to know where you were, well, for example, several days before STALIN's death. And after STALIN's death ws announced and at the time of (vo vremya) the funeral? This is such a moment which.... Well, at the time of (vo vremya) the funeral I was in Moscow.
HW 53716 ~~ QO - 59 = Well, let us begin before the beginning (pred nachalom), when you say that your father was a Minister and, of course, was in the Kremlin many times, etc., and probably was at conferences (soveshchani ye) of the Politbyuro. STALIN's death, as they say, ((was)) a very great moment in the life of the whole Russian or Soviet people. They remember all of this well, how it happened, etc. Let us take a starting point before the death and at the time of the death ((of STALIN)). When did you first hear that STALIN ((was)) ill or that he ((was)) dead? No, ((In an agitated voice)) It was announced that he ((was)) seriously ill, that, it was announced even in the press and by radio that he ((was)) ill.... .. Had you heard before this; for example, had you heard from your father or from someone in higher circles that he ((was)) ill. or something in this regard? You understand how it ((was)) (Vy ponimayete v chem delo), literally several hours, then they announced ((it)) immediately. It happened at night. . It happened at night with him, as far as I remember the details, I heard ((of it)) from father, well, then from father's circle (okruzheniye) there and.... I am asking only that question; we will not talk ((of)) then ((when)), of course, there were many conversations afterward: of when he became ill, of when his stroke (udar) seized him, and so forth. This was after every thing already had become known; I am speaking now of before STALIN's illness; let us take ((for example) ) the end of February or the beginning of March. What did you as a member of the family of a highly =placed person, etc., what did you hear of the death of STALIN from someone == from DoclId: 327404699 Page 63
HW 53716 DoclId: 37404699 Page 64 SECRET C -6o- |.“ your father or mother or from someone else among your acquaintances -- that, something ((was)) not wholly in order (ne sovsem v poryadke), with STALIN, in this line? Well, could we not have heard ((of this)) from anyone. It happened with him at night. In the morning it already had been announced by radio that he had a stroke (udar). Then I must make the conclusion that, before it was announced by radio or in the newspapers, you had not heard from anyone of his illness? No, No, but I heard of his illness of some kind (o yego kakoy bolezni), of this illness -= no. I had heard that he ((had been)) rather (Ikakoy -to) strange of late, ((that)) he did not receive anyone; I had heard this. Alright. Let us come back to this: he was rather strange, he did not receive anyone. Approximately when did this happen? It last was ((in)) 1952 and 1953. Let us return again to one moment: the XIX Party Congress was in October 1952, the last during his lifetime and.... Yes, yes. ...And the first after the war... Since 1938, after a long interval (bol'shoy pereryv). And STALIN attended this Congress....
HW 53716 r~. - ~ Taam MO -6l—= © 2 He made a speech, not big, brief. ...He gave a small brief speech, etc. You yourself personally had heard something before this, that he had some kind of strangeness, etc. This is my own (Eto u menya) ((interest)) _- I am not examining you.... No, no. You see how it was, from where I had heard? Well, I had heard such things from father, from father and from father's group (okruzheniye otsa) -- MALYSHEV, VANNIKOV, KHRUNICHEV, OKOPOV = "Of late, ‘The Boss (Khozyain)' is not receiving anyone; he is a little strange, he has changed, he has changed extremely in recent years". Well, here was in mind, I have in mind 1952, 1953, because in 1950 - 1951 I was not ((there)), I do not know, I was gone (ya byl v ot"yezde), I arrived in 1952. | (1G) I have heard of strangeness (strannosti) of such a type, that he was working (perenes rabotu) all night and in the morning, but during the day, generally, they rarely see him, and he does not permit ((anyone)) to approach him, and it is rare that one sees him. At that, from my pal _- Leonid PETROV, that is _ I heard a little, other details of ((STALIN's)) personal life, how he acts. But who is this PETROV? His father, PETROV ~~ Lieutenant Colonel PETROV == was working in STALIN's guard (okhrana STALINA). In the guard around STALIN (V okhrane u STALINA)? Yes. And it was from him, from this Leonid I heard other details. But this ((was)), he, let us say (predpolozhim), he ((i.e., STALIN)) spent time in such a way. DoclId: 327404699 Page 65
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 66 (We no Cc Where was Leonid himself working? Leonid himself, then he was a student, in general he is work ing six months somewhere at one address ((‘'at one postal box address" _- implying, at a factory which uses no publicly known address, but a numbered.post office box address only)), then he works somewhere else; he has a lawyer's education (obrazovaniye yurista) (2G). But, anyway, he did something ((did he not))? You know, in the Soviet Union ((it is)) difficult ((just)) to sit ((and)) do nothing. He graduated from Juridical Institute (yuridicheskiy institut) when he was about 30. He was a permanent student? Yes, He graduated from the Institute when he was about 30 years old. He worked for a short time in various organizations. ((He is)) a pal who absolutely does not like to work, does not want to work, If he ((is)) a lawyer (yurist) in what kind of organization (vakakoy organizatsii)? : Do you remember even one organization in which he was working? No. Why? Because in the early years (osnovnyye gody) when he began work, I graduated from the Institute in 1950, he graduated from the Institute a little later (popozzhe), he is older than I, I was born in 1927, he, in 1924. | He graduated a little later. He began work, as a matter of fact, when I began in the MGB,
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 67 on -6- ©. © ((The guard enters; everyone talks of cold tea and ice.)) How long did his father work in the guard (okhrana), do you know? Until his death. He worked for many years. He worked until his death. Where did they live, do you know? He lived on Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)). On Third Meshchanskaya? Yes, The usual house, a communally-owned ((as compared with the Ministry- owned houses; zhaktovskiy dom)) house. What number, do you not remember? I do not remember. You do not remember the number? I remember it -= this house. And what was the father's name, do you remember? Sergey, Sergey, because his Leonid ((is)) Leonid Sergeyevich; Sergey PETROV. The father ((is)) Sergey, and the son, Leonid? Leonid Sergeich. What, approximately, did Leonid tell you of STALIN's last days or
HW 53716 DoclId: 37404699 Page 638 of the next to last ((days))? But that he there.... what he eats (kushayet), what he eats (yest) there, but such questions. He, you understand, was working there in the household (v khozyaystve) or ((some)) where there -- I do not know - in the guard, he saw how and what... he told details of ((how)) "The Boss (khozyain)" spends time in the hothouse (oranzhereya), that he is strange. Let us say, there in the hot-house at Blizhnyaya Dacha in the Vorob'yevyye Gory, there were several lemon trees. Fruit appeared on these lemon trees ((and)) he ((STALIN)) counted up how many. Well, on one there ((were)) perhaps four, on another, six, I do not ‘‘khow how many, and one lemon (("fruit" - plod)) fell. It fell, yes. Do not tell ((me)) about this, this is an old joke (anekdot) which has been around (sushchestvuyte uzhe) for 20 years. It is true, this happened, there was such athing, but this.... ((Interrupts))... He eats, how he (1G) ALLILUYEVA's sister -- that is, of the former, ALLILUYEVA was STALIN's wife, but her older sister, of the wife, she was ((there)) as the housekeeper (ekonomka) for many years... . Nadezhda, Nadezhda, it seems, ((was)) her name; he told about her. But what did he say about ALLILUYEVA; what happened to STALIN's wife? But this was not from PETROV; there were in general rumors about her; I heard that she, that is ALLILUYEVA was killed by STALIN himself. How many persons, let us say, in your father's or your family's position, how many knew about this? Were there many people, or in general did everyone know about this? No, no, no, no; that is, it was passed from person to person ((''from
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 69 ear to ear" = s ukho na ukho) ) and (XG) he killed her out of (no pochve) jealousy. But what -=— he liked to chase the women (za babskimi yubkami gonyat'sya)... out of jealousy. Or he did something else (Ili chem-to drugim zanimalsya). No. Well, for what there, out of jealousy (XG). What does it mean: she was with someone, or he was with someone? Supposedly , supposedly; there was even a rumor that VOROSHILOV supposedly had made advances (priukhazhival) ((to her)). How true this is I do not know, but. ((The guard has brought cold tea)) Please ((Offers tea.)). Thanks. Well, he said that he ((STALIN)) often went at night (po nocham) to the cemetery at Novo-Devichiy Monastyr', to her grave, at night. At night (Noch'yu), he sat there for several hours when it was warm (v teploye vremya). | Apparently, he had great feeling for ALLILUYEVA in his soul, if _ in spite of the many years -- this was after the war, and he continued to go to the cemetery, to the grave, to ALLILUYEVA. I have heard -= you talk of women -= I have heard that there were some women. For example. Marina SEMENOVA, then, who? A ballerina, she also went, went directly, to him; then, then --= they talk, I do not know how much is true, about the singer, SHPILLER
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 70 "SECRET - 66 = ~ cain nd SHPILLER, I do not know how much is true. She is an old woman. So, ((wait)) one minute, this was not in later years, ((but in)) 1946 ~ 1947, in these years. Old woman, what kind of old woman; she was about 40 years old, no more. And you yourself visited the PETROVs' apartment? I was, I was not in the PETROVs' apartment, I was at the house, I know the entrance to it (("where" - gde)), but I was not in his, in Leonid's, apartment. Where ((is)) this on Meshchanskaya ((Street))? ‘This ((is)) the middle of Meshchanskaya ((Street)). A tall gray building, about six stories, it stands out, next to a. somewhat smaller building. But this ((is)) a communally-owned ((zhaktovskiy -- see above)), not an institutionally-owned (vedomstvennyy), building. But do you yourself know Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)) well? No. I do not know ((it)) well, but have driven along it when dropping off Leonid. We will return to the old question. Approximately how much time did it take, after ROZHENKO had talked with you and said, then, "please, now you will come to work"? Who first made the suggestion that you go to counterintelligence; how did this happen? ' B. So, listen.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 71 er — lan I said that I was with this employee = he was a case officer (oper) or a ((senior)) case officer (upolnomochennyy ) _ two times, and the third time, with ROZHENKO. And I did not know what, how, where it will be; the last phone call was in the middle of March, come to my office ((‘tme")) in Building 2, at the fourth: entrance, and not to the Pass Bureau, but directly at the fourth entrance there will be a pass for me. Further, we stopped and began to talk of STALIN's attitudes (otnosheniya). When did you first hear that STALIN ((was)) dead; when did this happen? Officially, this ((was)) the second of March, the second, it seems, of March, yes. It was announced officially that at night, today, it was announced in such form, tonight (segodnya noch'yu) it took place, but in general the meaning was such that, you know, there is a stroke, a state of shock, a brain hemorrhage occurred, well, there ahead of» the word, that serious aawa...., Well, this is not important. A brain hemorrhage.... And that he is unconscious. Unconscious. Unconscious. He was unconscious on the second and third ((of March)), and he died at night on the fourth. Where were you at this time? In Moscow.
| HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 72 C | 68 - Where in Moscow? At your parents', or? At home with my parents, on Gor'kiy Street. But who first found out about this: your father, or you, or your mother? Who was the first, who heard ((about it)), what? But I do not remember. I do not remember how it was. Who first: this one ((was)) first, that one ((was)) first (vot etot pervyy, vot etot pervyy). I remember that it was the first thing in the morning (bylo srazu zhe utrom), to my thinking, of the second ((of March)) I found out about this. Can you tell me, approximately, what kind of conversation there was at home when you learned that STALIN ((was)) dead? What was your father's reaction? Father was terribly depressed; mother, of course, was upset. Father was terribly upset, depressed and shaken by this. Further, after they had put STALIN.... In the Hall of Columns (Kolonnyy zal)? In the Hall of Columns of the House of Unions; how many times dia you visit the Hall of Columns of the House of Unions, while his body was there’? ((Long pause; then, without certainty and ina low voice:)) I was there only one time. How did you get there?
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 73 SECRET Under what circumstances did you make the visit (posetili)? ((Long pause)) I went with father, because there was no other way to get through (inache tam bylo ne proyti). ((It was)) awful, what had happened. But they approached (pod"yezhali) from what is now Marx ((Street) (so storony seychas Marksa), this is the government entrance (vkhod), and the Ministers passed through here. I went with father straight here, but it ((was)) closed here, they did not permit cars to pass; only a government vehicle could go there (pod"yekhat'). I went with him here, he went up, I went, well, there ((was)) a room where they could drink water, smoke, sit, rest, there ( (was) ) the hall, and I went through here, going with them, took off ((coats)) here, I already had gone through, I joined the whole crowd which was going in from Pushkin ((Street)), but just outside the building I joined ((the crowd)) and went through; ((Pause)) that is what I did. Do you not remember who stood in the Honor Guard at this time? No, I do not remember. I do not remember. How much time was STALIN there, in this Hall of Columns of the House of Unions? What unusual ((thing)) happened in Moscow during these days? Well, in Moscow there was... with the people... terrible... the people tried to go through... very many people, the streets ((were)) jammed (perekryty), they crushed the crowd (massa) of people. In what way did they crush ((them))? Well, a crowd (tolpa) gathers, let us suppose, in the by-streets (pereulki); here a by-street is jammed with vehicles; they press ((those in)) the rear against ((those in)) the front; well, then,
HW 53716 __ SECRET— a a ~ a, \ - 70 =. the mounted Militia, in general, nightmarish...._ What was the reaction of the Moscow citizens (moskvichi) to this crushing == sO many people were killed, etc.? No one announced ((anything)) about this. But all the same they know. But there was the rumor that those bastards (svolochi takiye) are crushing the people, they cannot get through (ne mogut pustit'). As if, so to speak, they are doing ((it)) especially, ((there was)) Simply the fear that something can come up (("arise" -— vozniknut')). How many ((times)) did your father go to the House ((of Unions) )? He was there every day. Every day. He went several days; they went several times a day; they went in- the morning, during the day, in the evening, several times a day. He stood in the Honor Guard? Yes. Do you not remember on what day? No. He stood several times. To my thinking, he stood each day. Because they stood there only three to five minutes in all ((at one time)). And he could stand several times a day. But were you present at the funeral? ’ DoclId: 327404699 Page 74
HW 53716 ~~ SECRET — -7- © \ B. No, no, no, ‘ A. What -- you did not want to, or how ((was it))? B. ((Long pause)) A pass was not written for me. Only because, usually, when I was at home, be fore my departure for the Far East, before my departure for the Far East, all holidays, any holidays, ((observed)) in Red Square or at Tushino Airfield, there was always a pass for all the family, mother separately, and for me. For father, it goes without saying, ((a pass was prepared)) separately But in this case ((“here" ~ zdes')) apparently I had been absent, you see, part of 1950, 1951, 1952, and when, at the beginning of 1953, I was not registered ((’am not registered" - ne chislyus')) in Moscow, ((a pass)) was not prepared (ne vypisan) for me, to that place (tuda) it was not again necessary , a pass for Red Square, well, as ((is)) usual, if one goes with his family (yesli poyti S sem'yami). A. Then, you went? B. I did not receive a pass. A then you were not at the funeral? B. No, no. A. In what way were the funeral banquets, as they say in Russian, organized at home after STALIN's death? After the funeral? What did they do in your home? Was there some kind of special get-together (vecherinka)? B. No, no. Absolutely nothing. DoclId: 327404699 Page 75 eth
C A. Was your father invited somewhere with the family, or did he invite someone? B. No, no, no; no one was a guest at our place, and ((there was)) no funeral banquet; there was nothing at our home. A. Nothing. A. Now, we will return to that moment that you, then, ((when)) ROZHENKO sent you to ((the Second Chief Directorate)). B. No. ) ROZHENKO did not send ((me)). ROZHENKO only talked with me, but everything remained unclear for me. Then what? | | | "You will be put in the know; you will be at the disposal; you will be put in the know. "AS soon as there will ibe an order (prikaz) on you, you -= they will phone you -~ will be informed (Vam ob"yavyat)". And there was a phone call for me in the middle of March -=- it was just after STALIN's funeral -= that I should come to the fourth entrance of Building 2, where -- not in the Pass Bureau, but directly at the entrance == there will be a pass for me. A. You went to the fourth entrance of Building 2; what did you find thers B. There there was for me, at the fourth entrance _= you go in, they check the pass here; I said that there must be a pass for me here. Now, one minute - ((said)) the duty officer (vakhter ofitser); then the duty officers were officers, checking passes _ later, they were replaced with sergeants-petty officers (serzhanty-starshiny); I went up; yes, ((he said)) there is (yest'), please go in (pozhaluysta, prokhodite). (1G) to the reception room, to KOBULOV, Bogdan Zakharovich, who HW 53216 DoclId:32404699. Page 76.
—SECRET____ _ -~ 73 = from the moment after STALIN's death -- when the Ministries, the MVD ((and)) the MGB, were combined in one MVD -={ he was then appointed First Deputy. They took him from Germany, from GUSIMZ ((Chief Directorate of Soviet Property Abroad)), as First Deputy. A, You do not remember until what time he was in Germany? B. Until ((‘until the moment of" - do momenta)) STALIN's death; he . } oO returned ((Pause)), he returned to the Ministry for State Security (Ministerstvo Gosbezopasnosti), to the MVD. A. You are sure, and you know ((this)) exactly? B. Exactly, exactly; absolutely, because the new Ministry: they combined the MVD and the MGB; the Minister -= BERIYA; the First Deputy =-— Bogdan KOBULOV. A. But I am saying, do you know exactly that he came from Germany at> this time? B. No, he came as soon as it happened with STALIN. A. But before this time, you had met him in January; he, what -- went back to Germany? B. In January, when I saw him -- as far as I remember -= he was for a time, for a short time -- either they called him to Moscow or he had come for New Year's, a short period, but he had to go back to Germany. To his "BISMUTH'' (V Vismut svoy). A. At the fourth entrance they gave you a pass, and you yourself went to look ((for the office) )? B. No, ((it was)) indicated there, the office ((was)) indicated, room such-and=such; this was the third floor, on the third floor. HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 7? Se.
C - 74 - () 390... I do not remember which room (kakaya eto komnata) . The third floor, ((it was)) indicated. I went there. I took off ((my coat))., You go in, here sits some sort of secretary (vrode sekretar'), on - the left ((is)) the reception room -- several persons were sitting. Then, ‘still another office (yeshche odin kabinet) _- this was not a secretary, but KOBULOV's assistant (pomoshchnik), SAVITSKIY, They directed me to him. | | SAVITSKIY said: "Wait, take off ((your coat)), sit dow." I sat for an hour or an hour and a half, here in the reception room. SAVITSKIY again called me and says: "You know what: Go to six hundred... six hundred... six hundred forty... seven, Room 647 of Building 2. "Bogdan Zakharovich ((is)) very busy; ((go)). directly to Comrade SHUBNYAKOV ." | Who is this, who is this; he told me absolutely nothing. And I left this SAVITSKIY; I had spent the time sitting in the reception room, and no one had received me, but according to. ((my)) idea ((of things)), KOBULOV, Bogdan, should have received me; I went to the sixth floor, to Room 647, to SHUBNYAKOV -- First Deputy of FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich, Chief of the Second Chief Directorate . SHUBNYAKOV . I went to this Room 647. The secretary, I said to the secretary that he ((SAVITSKIY)) had sent me to Comrade SHUBNYAKOV, ((that)) Comrade SAVITSKIY had sent ((me)) from Comrade KOBULOV's reception room. "One minute" ((he said)). He went to him, reported; "Now, go in" ((he said)). I went in, to Comrade SHUBNYAKOV. SHUBNYAKOV is sitting alone. And here I found out that I will be working -- and that there already is an order _- and that I am assigned (chislyus') in the Second Chief Directorate and that I will be working in the First Department (otdel), the First Section (otdeleniye). He rang up Acting (("1.0.": ispolnyayushchiy obyazannosti)) Chief of HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 73
HW 53716 I arrived. DoclId: 327404699 Page 79 NM ~W- © the First Department GORBATENKO. Who is this (kto takoy) GORBATENKO? At the moment of my arrival, he was Acting Chief of the First Department. Soon after, at the end of March or in the beginning’ of April, he was assigned as Chief of the Department, of the First Department. He ( (SHUBNYAKOV) ) rang up GORBATENKO, introduced ((me)), "Here is your new employee, Comrade ((B's surname)); the order on his assignment to the First Department, First Section as a case officer already has been signed; ((that is)) all; go". I went, talked with GORBATENKO. GORBATENKO rang up KOZLOV, Chief of the Section, and on the following day I went to work. Well, what, practically, did SHUBNYAKOV tell you? Explain to me. About what did you talk with SHUBNYAKOV? He said =-- again, I will not tell you word for word; I do not remember word for word; I will give the sense of that conversation, as it was. But again, briefly, I told him about myself, briefly, in several words. I told that I was born there (tam—to) , I graduated from the Institute of International Relations and began work in the GRU line (po Linii GRU), I had worked in the Far East and on the Baltic, everything. "What language did you study?" English. Well, briefly, about myself. "Well, here, there is an order on you, on your assignment to the First Department, a counterintelligence Department, working against American intelligence, against the American Embassy; you will be working in the First Section, as a case officer",
HW 53716 Docld: 32404699 Page 60 But did you know at that time what a case officer is? I did not know anything. And I had absolutely no understanding of what a case officer (Cis)), of what a senior case officer ((is)). Probably they explained to you? ((They explained)) that it is an officer's position (dolzhnost'), that it is a beginning (pervonachal'naya) ((position)), that we have the junior (mladshiy) case officer the... ((one)) minute... was he called "junior" then? Assistant case officer (Pom. opera)? I do not remember: junior or assistant case officer. It means -- first, then case officer, senior case officer. Well, you understand, you have not been working with us, you are only beginning, we cannot give you "senior", but "junior" also is not for you (Vam ne dayet), because you have graduated from the Institute and you already have even some kind of work experience, - some kind of experience of work in the GRU. Alright (khorosho), I do not know how much this paid (skol'ko eto zarplaty), that ’ nothing, absolutely nothing.... | For me, this absolutely.... But were you interested? What kind of pay, what? No, no, no, no. I did not even ask. When they assigned (chislili) you there, with what rank were you assigned? As a lieutenant. It was as a lieutenant.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 61 C) ~7- . © Lieutenant? Lieutenant. And what did they do for you; ((did they make)) some kind of tag ((or "addition" -~ pripiska)) to the rank, lieutenant, or not? Absolutely none. Absolutely. I understand of what you are asking. Absolutely. Was it said from what date you would be assigned (zachislyayetes' )? It was said that the order ((had been)) signed, the order on me ((had been)) signed; he rang up GORBATENKO; GORBATENKOsaid the order regarding (v otnoshenii) ((B's surname) ) ((has been)) signed; let him take ((his)) place, define ((his duties)), begin work. Do you not remember exactly on what date the order ((was)) signed? But I do not remember -- the twelfth, the fifteenth, well, the middle of March. The order was ((effective)) from that day on which you began work or earlier? No, ws far as I understood, I think that on this very day when they phoned me, probably the order had been Signed in the morning. Whether on the twelfth or the fifteenth, but the order already had been signed, ((and)) therefore they called me. You were working there. What kind of pay did you receive? It means, so: The basic pay (oklad) was 1,700 ((rubles)) plus 500 \
(Cy ((for)) rank (zvaniye), and then I got another (i zatem mne shlo uzhe) 5%; plus, yes, 10%, 10% -~ this ((was for)) language, well and this, after about two or three months, 10% for secrecy (sekretnost'), necessary for me to pass an examination, here, at the courses (na kursakh) on Kisel'nyy (v Kisel'nom) ((Bol‘shoy Kisel'nyy pereulok _- where the Higher School of the KGB is located)); I passed the examination, and ((received)) another 10%; in all, then, 25%. 2,200 ((rubles)) ,- plus 25%. A. This 5% ((was)) for what? B. Length ((in years)) of service (vysluga). A. For length of service? B. Yes, A. You remember this exactly -- that the basic pay was 1,700? B. 1,700, yes. 1,700, ((and)) 500. Then, soon afterward, soon afterward, literally, whether at the end of 1953, to my thinking, they took away ((the pay)) for rank (za pogony); we received only the basic pay, ((the pay for)) secrecy, and they did not pay for rank. A. When did this begin? B. To my thinking, the end of 1953, the beginning of 1954; I do not remember . Then, this was, it continued approximately a year, then again they returned ((to paying)) for rank (za zvaniye). A. Well, approximately; you must know exactly the pay (zarplata), etc. When did they stop (srezali) paying for rank? HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 62
HW 53716 B. DoclId: 327404699 Page 83 om we . an NN - I remember that over the period of a year (v techeniye goda), this... whether in the end of 1953, in the beginning of 1954, they stopped paying for rank. ((Pauses)) They did not pay for approximately a year (primerno v techeniye goda). And then in what year did they begin again to pay? Well, after a year. . Is it that you are saying that at the end of 1953 or in the beginning of 1954 they stopped paying? Yes. Well, then, in 1954, they were not paying; in 1955, they already were paying again. In 1955, they had begun to pay again? Yes. ((Pauses)) I do not remember the date exactly. Why did they take away ((the pay)) for rank? The economy struggle (Bor'ba za ekonomiyu)... In the Council of Ministers (v SovMine), in the Council of Ministers (v Sovets Ministrov). This probably was somehow explained to the employees? It was explained that we consider that we alone of (1G) of the Ministry, we ((are)) the most highly paid. So. The most (naiboleye) highly paid, and ((they)) were the most (samyye) highly paid.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 64 “o NE Upon whose suggestion (predlozheniye) was this done? It was the suggestion of someone in the Presidium. I do not remember whose suggestion; a resolution (resheniye) was adopted in the Presidiun. But it did not continue long. It continued... for a year. The problem was resolved anew. But why did they begin to pay again? Who made this suggestion? I do not know. They began to consider the work of the MVD -= the Ministry, this was the former MVD; there still was no KGB then —= they compared ((it)) to the Army. They were compared to the Army before this. You even asked me whether they made a tag (Cor "addition" ~ pripiska)) to my rank; I say no. | . There, they were, you see, Major of State Security (Mayor Gosbezo-~ pasnosti), Senior Lieutenant of State Security, and so forth. This was not the Army. When was this? Well, this was before the war and during the war (v gody voiny), during the war and even after the war. Until approximately what time? I do not know until what time approximately. I... did not have such a tag (pripiska) to my rank; I began to work in 1953.
HW 53716 (~ _ . pos But someone among those working at this time had such tags? ((Long pause)) Well, I do not remember, I do not remember. Because ((when)) I came, then there was no State Security; then, there was the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Colonels, lieutenants, without the addition (bez dobavleniya) of "GB ((State Security - Gosbezopasnosti))", without the addition. But how did they unite the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry for State Security? What ranks did they have -- those who were working in the MGB and those who were working in the MVD? ((Long pause; talks to himself in a low voice, repeating the question:)) It means, what ranks? What kind’? What difference in ranks was there between the MVD and the MGB? But in the MVD -- this ((is)) the Militia (eto Militsiya): Colonel of Militia, Lieutenant of Militia, or Commissar of Militia. But what else did they have? They had, you see, not only the Militia alone (ne tol ko odna Militsiya) before the time when they were joined (prisoyedinilis'), Well,there were the Convoy Troops, there were the camps, the Construction Troops, there were.... What kind of ranks did they have? I do not know, I do not know, ; do not know. You began work when the MVD already had begun (stalo), when BERIYA had taken over (vzyal verkh) and they had combined the MVD and the MGB. DoclId: 327404699: Page 65
HW 53716 C ~82—- ~~ People from the MVD and the MGB began to work together; what kind of difference in ranks was there ((between)) those who had worked previously in the MVD and those who had worked previously in the MGB; now, they ((were) ) together; what kind of difference in ranks existed between them? I do not know, I do not know what kind of difference. What -- one was called (odni nazyvalis') Major of Internal Affairs; the other, Major of State Security, or how? The point is that there was no tag (pripiska) ((like)) this "State Security (Gosbezopasnosti)". | | ((When)) I began work, there was no such tag (ne bylo etoy pripiski). But, in the MVD, what kind of tag was there? I do not know, I do not know. Are you exactly certain that they paid you the basic pay (oklad) as a case officer? I began as a case officer, as a case officer. 1,700 rubles? 1,700. And 500? 500 for rank (za zvaniye). For rank? They took away ((the pay for)) rank and... there was left -= the basic pay for position (dolzhnostnoy oklad) plus, then, ((for)) SECRET Docld: 32404699 Page 6&6
HW 53716 DocId: 32404699 Page 87 i secrecy, plus ((for)) language, percentages only (protsentnyye tol'ko) You are saying, anyway (vse), that they took away the pay for rank (za zvaniye snyali platit') at the end of 1953. In fifty-... I think... I do not know exactly, I think that ((it was)) at the end of 1953. You remember exactly that you received ((pay)) for rank, but then began not to receive (ne stali poluchat' ) ((such pay ))? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Then began not to receive ((this pay))? Did not receive, yes. But then again began (stal)? But then again I began to receive ((it)). Let us go back a little, to.... This was, you see, a very short period, to my thinking, when the MGB and the MVD were combined ounder one Ministry and they were in one Ministry, a short period. ...When, officially, did they organize the KGB? In 1955, or 1954; 1954, it seems, or 1955. ((Wait a)) minute.... ((Pauses) ) was called ~~ for approximately six or eight months -- the First Directorate. But the First Directorate was the Second Directorate. ((Pauses) ) I do not remember... I do not remember.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 85 - 84 - You remember, approximately, when they arrested ABAKUMOV? Uhhh, ABAKUMOV, oho, they arrested before my time of service (('before me" = do menya)). But approximately when? You worked there so many years, there were conversations.... ABAKUMOV was arrested when IGNAT'YEV was Minister. When was IGNAT'YEV Minister? IGNAT'YEV was Minister until STALIN's death. You remember who were his Deputies? I was not working ((then)), I do not remember, I know, I heard that GOGLIDZE was a Deputy ((Minister)); he was ((Deputy Minister)) under both ABAKUMOV and IGNAT'YEV. Who else? ((Long pause)) MASLENNIKOV, to my thinking, was at one time, yes. One of the Deputies was SVINELUPOV. Who was not there (Kogo tam tol'ko ne bylo)?! BLINOV and RYASNOY and SAVCHENKO and... they all changed... and OGOL' TSOV .— I. have in mind only that period when -=- as you began to say -« IGNAT'YEV was Minister; who were his...? I do not know; I do not know. Because I- was not working in this period (2G).... I understand. You say that you were not working ((then)), but after this ((period) )
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 89 ~~ - — - 85 = © WwW you were working there for a long time; you probably, when you arrived there, there were conversations: that ((one)) was, that ((one)) was.... I say: there was RYASNOY, SAVCHENKO; they were Deputies. To IGNAT' YEV% ; To IGNAT'YEV, yes. You are certain of this? No, no, no; I am not certain, not certain. I do not want to tell you, because I do not know exactly; I am not certain, I know that they were working; at what time -- to my thinking, under IGNAT'YEV (u IGNAT'YEVA). Think about this a little; who else were IGNAT'YEV's Deputies? ((Pauses)) I do not know. I was not working ((there, then)). I was not working during IGNAT" YEV's time, no. But what happened with GOGLIDZE: Well, GOGLIDZE was arrested when BERIYA was arrested. And MASLENNIKOV? MASLENN IKOV? This one shot himself. It is not known why. They say that he left a letter for the government (pravitel'stvo). But the reasons == no one announced anything. But this was after STALIN's death, later, MASLENNIKOV.
C -s6- | Cc A. And what of SVINELUPOV? B. He was removed (("'These were removed" - Eti byli snyati)). SVINELUPOV, he had been removed previously (eto byli snyati ran'she). He (Eto) was the Personnel man (kadrovik) under ABAKUMOV. A. When, previously? You are saying that he was under MASLENNIKOV... under IGNAT'YEV? B. I do not know exactly. I am saying that they worked in ABAKUMOV's IGNAT'YEV's time, such people. But when they, what years, when they were removed, were appointed —- I do not know this. A. I do not want to drag you back to ABAKUMOV, etc.; I simply asked how you knew who was ((there))? You said that IGNAT'YEV was Minister.... B. ... IGNAT'YEV was Minister.... “A, ... And my question was, who were his Deputies? You said: GOGLIDZE, MASLENNIKOV, SVINELUPOV, SAVCHENKO, RYASNOY.... B. No. I am saying that ((they)) were, but who was, I am not certain. Because I do not know exactly who were IGNAT'YEV's Deputies, who were ABAKUMOV's; I do not know, I do not know. I know that at one time ((they)) were Deputies in this Ministry... I gave his name (Ya nazval yego familiyu). A. Of course, in each Ministry there are Deputies. B. No. . ((it is)) simply that I heard the names; it could have been OGOL'TSOV, RYASNOY, SAVCHENKO, SVINELUPOV, BLINOV; who else? HW 53216 DBocld:32404699 Page 90
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 91 SECE QL - 87 = This one (Eto) I call MGB, MGB, this one ((was)) MGB, this one ((was)) MGB. Do you remember anyone else who was under IGNAT'YEV? Oh, oh, oh; this very, a "climber" (bylez), a phenomenal career, ((one)) of the investigators (sledovatel'), a "comer" (brosok)... how ((was)) his...? He was a senior investigator and up to (do) Deputy Minister.... Who? RYUMIN? Yes, yes, yes; exactly. What happened with RYUMIN? Together. When they removed IGNAT'YEV, they removed him, also. RYUMIN was on the Doctors’ Plot ((''Case"” = po delu vrachey)). This ((was)) the Doctors' Plot; this ((was)) RYUMIN. And what happened with IGNAT'YEV after they had removed him? IGNAT'YEV went to the Tatar ((Autonomous Oblat)), as First Secretary, to the Tatar ((Autonomous Oblast)); it was surprising that IGNAT'YEV remained in such a big post, having the Doctors' Plot on his back. As First Secretary in the Tatar ASSR, the Autonomous Oblast. Did you hear from anyone what part the Second Chief Directorate took in this Doctors' Plot and ((the case of)) the letters of Lidiya TIMASHUK? I do not know the details. I only know only one interesting detail.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 92 y I do not know ((whether)) it is interesting or not interesting. When I came, when I had arrived -= here is what is interesting ont oe SHUBNYAKOV phonedmwe, he talked with me, he phoned GORBATENKO, GORBATENKO talked with me, and this very day I saw the Chief of the First Department -- that is, you understand, he still was assigned | ((chislilsya), but was not working, then was not working, as Chief of the First Department -- Colonel KOZLOV, Anatoliy Sergeyevich. Everyone in the world knows him (Yego vse znayut, vo vsem mire); we do not need to talk about him (ne sleduyet o nem razgovarivat'). No, here, he took part on the Doctors' Plot (v dele vrachey); he took part; they sent (brosili) him to the Special Investigative, Investigative Unit (chast') for Especially Important Cases; they sent (brosili) him for (na) the Doctor's Plot, and he took what part? They called up all these doctors who had been arrested and persuaded them to give testimony (pokazaniya) that everything that they had said before this was untrue, that this was taken only by beating ° (tol'ko bitvem), that they had told lies (nepravda). And the poor doctors did not know whether to tell lies now or to tell the truth. But finally they agreed to tell the truth. In general, they convinced the doctors to admit that the previous testimony had been incorrect. It was in this that KOZLOV took part. And therefore I said, when GORBATENKO, his Chief of Department (yego nachal'nik otdela), because KOZLOV continued to be assigned (chislit'sya) as Chief of the Department.... But, TIMASHUK, then, I heard that they took back the Order of Lenin, that it ((the case)) was "manufactured (dutoye)". TIMASHUK was an agent. But not only heard.