157-10002-10105 Date:09/30/93 Page:1 ca JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM AGENCY INFORMATION AGENCY : SSCIA RECORD NUMBER : 157-10002-10105 , RECORDS SERIES : TRANSCRIPT AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : SSCIA FROM : TO : TITLE : TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HARVEY DATE : 06/25/75 PAGES : 62 SUBJECTS : ZRRIFLE CASTRO ROSELLI, JOHNNY OPERATION MONGOOSE BISSELL, RICHARD ASSASSINATION KENNEDY, JOHN F. THE PRESIDENT QUWIN MAFIA ~ SILVER, ARNOLD DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT i CLASSIFICATION : T - = see RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED Oe CURRENT STATUS : P . DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/30/93 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : | | . Box 245 i. “ Folder 13 [R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED HW 50955 DBDocld:3272681945 Page 1
TOP SECRET 1 |jcounterespionage for a brief period against the Japanese and 2 jithe Italians and the Russians in '41. Then during most of the Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 5 War, against the Germans, and then beginning in early '45 until 4 |the middle of '47 against the Soviet service again. 5 Mr. Schwarz. And then in 1947, did you join the CIA as 6 ||head of the Soviet Intelligence Branch? y i. Mr. Harvey. That is correct. 8 Mr. Schwarz. Is that also counterespionage? 9 Mr. Harvey. Yes, it was. 10 Mr. Schwarz. And then between 1947 and 1952, you worked 1] |On Soviet counterespionage and certain special operations in 12 ||the Department for Plans, is that right? 13 Mr. Harvey. Well, that is correct. It was a particular WARD & PAUL command and staff responsibility on (fe) mmuniea tions anre Pig ence: 14 aan 15 jand for - a: period of, I would think probably eight to ten 16 | months, I’ headed’ a planning staff, along with that. 19 Mr. Schwarz. In 1952, did you go to (Beni 19 |ISEAETOR? for the CIA? 19 Mr. Harvey. I did. 20 Mr. Schwarz. And were you there until. 1959? 21 Mr. Harvey. Until the end of 1959. 22 Mr. Schwarz. I understand, Mr. Harvey, that you had some 03 ||rather substantial accomplishments there, such as 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 4 ( Saver Sie: 25 Could you just very succinctly describe the HW 50955 Docld: 32261945 Page 2 : TOP SECRET
8 7 $ ¢ 0 1 operation and then move on? Q 3 2 Mr. Harvey. Well, very briefly, that is an operation that : ee) 2 3 and I conceived some time before I went to 4 5 Senator Tower. You and who? 6 Mr. Harvey. | who for many years was one of 7 the, if not the most, knowledgeable senior officer in the BF | F 9 And one of the reasons I went feoppamiin was to attempt to 10 mount this operation. 11 In substance, what it amounted to was setting up a fairly 3 a & a f g z 24 Senator Tower. Were not what? 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 Mr. Harvey. Were notre HY 50955 DBoctld: 32261945 Page 3 TOP SECRET
| 8 8 $ $ 2 1 Mr. Schwarz. I have been told, Mr. Harvey -- is this not fo} F & lleorrect -- that you not only conceived the program buti#i'al 4 Mr. Harvey. I did. 5 Mr. Schwarz. In 1959, did you become Chief of the Foreign 6 ll\Intelligence Staff Bivision D? 7 Mr. Harvey. That is correct. 8 Mr. Schwarz. Now is Division D a division of the CIA which 9 |is responsible forg 10 Mr. Harvey. That is also correct. il Mr. Schwarz. But part -~ 3 : : x 12 Mr. Harvey. But I would like to clarify it, if I may, rf a a 15 |Mr. Schwarz. It was the division of the clandestine services, 3 14 |which was the focal point and was responsible for primarily two 15 things: | 16 Re | 17 1g / 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 23 Mr. Schwarz. Did Staff D include within its responsibili- Ra Eres URPEDERELCUS MOD ta iiingmomeodem in ona ela 25 Mr. Harvey. Yes, in two ways: complete control and HW 50955 Docld:323281945 Page 4 TOP SECRE
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL HW 450955 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 LO ll le 13 14 1s 16 1? 18 19 20 el DocTd:3281945 Page 5 TOP SECRET | Nbuamatiira’sy TOP SECRET coordination of any such efforts,. approval! and assessment of the security risk, and also in the direct procurement through operational means abroad, but not-sin this country. Mr. Schwarz. And by operational, you maan feneeRinge + SL RE TS Mr. Harvey. Hilcrowayer that type of thing. be covered as well. Mr. Schwarz. Now, did a man call ¥dusjep for you in Staff D? Mr. Harvey. Yes, he did. Mr. Schwarz. At some point, did (ii you a conversation concerning Patrice Mr. Harvey. Yes. Mr. Schwarz. Would you state ff Mr. Harvey. Briefly, (zee se Re eres: aA Hitman ee ‘that he had been fapproached by Richard Bissell," Deputy Director for Plans, to undertake dh operation in Congo, one of the objectives of which was the elimination of Patrice Lumumba. He also told me that he had declined to undertake this assignment. Mr. Schwarz. Did Mr Bissell subsequently hava a conversa- tion with you in which he also recounted the fact that he had requested BM 2 Oe 1 to undertake such an operation?
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6006 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 LO Ll 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 al 22 £5 nA 25 TOP SECRET - 13 Of assassination is obviously a two-pronged subject, ours and theirs. We spent countless hours over the years trying to determine the parameters of how far the Soviet service was willing to go. This was partly a question of assessment,.. this was partly a question, to put it just as bluntly, of self-protection. I will try to summarize what I think are fair conclusions. In the field of political assassination, although I cannot ™ document this by evidence, I have no question but what the Soviet service has, does, and will continue to use the tool o assassination to accomplish poditical gains inside and outside! of the USSR. In the intelligence field, I think you havé to Make a. distinction, the distinction roughly -- and I'm over- simplifying this slightly -- but a distinction into perhaps three classes. One, their own ethnics or nationals. Sacondly, indigenous agents Of-third countries.And thirdly, the recognized official staff officers of other intelligence services. During the seven years that I spent ffin mu, which was the longest continuous period that I was exposed in depth to Soviet Executive Action, we lost a great many Russians, a great many Germans, a certain number of Czechs, Poles and other nationalities. “Mrs. Schwarz. When you say you lost Russians, you mean Russians who were working with the United States? Docld:32081945 Page 6° ~ | TO pp SECRET
HY Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 50955 10 Li 12 135 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el 22 25 24 20 19 Mr. Schwarz. Anyway, it exists, as a combination. Mr. Harvey. In other words, if you want to put it in just these blunt terms, it would have been a lot easier for the KGB Mr. Schwarz. In describing the Soviets, you distinguish between political assassination, direct agents of the United States, and finally the emigres and foreign nationals. Mr. Harvey. And’ also -~ well, not foreign nationals, but emigres and Soviet nationals. Mr. Schwarz. That's what I maant. Soviet nationals. Mr. Harvey. The most merciless, the field where they are the most merciless are their own defected agents, of course. Mr. Schwarz. Now, to your knowledge, has the United States ever assassinated a defected agent or a third country? Mr. Harvey. You mean an American agent who has defacted or doubled? Mr. Schwarz. Yes. Mr. Harvey. To my personal knowledge, no. Mr. Schwarz. What about persons who are third country enemies of the United States? Mr. Harvey. No. Mr. Schwarz. You don't know any instance of the United States assassinating any person who is in the non-political DoctTd: 32861945 Page 7 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET 49 i=] 3 ¢ 3 1 ||/Eyes Only basis, and the first part of this was the necessary N . . io] 3 2 documentation for the authority which was later signed off on f 5 3 ||by Dick Helms as Deputy Director. 4 Beginning on my page 4, your middle of page 3.-- 5 Mr. Schwarz. Well, just a moment. Page 1 is a cover story, 6 |jnot the real story, the objectives-- y Mr. Harvey. It is both. 8 Mr. Schwarz. But it does. not recite as an objective, 2° isei: g || aSsassination. or: assassination: capability. 10 Mr. Harvey. No, it does not. 11 Mr. Schwarz. Instead, it cites fEMeWobtairing. of code. oe al : 12 |gpe-exoherema tenses.” & . . Q 13 Mr. Harvey. Which, I would like to point out, was a & 3 14 perfectly legitimate objective and was not in a sense, a cover 15 story except that if this project had gone so far as to the actual recruitment of any agent for assassination or the target- 16 WW ting of any target or the mounting of any operation, it would 18 have been under this as a cover. But, those assets that were ise] 8 . 19 spotted by QJWINN, for instance, under ZRRIFLE were also J poe AEF a 20 honestly considered for possible clandestine procurement fof “8 $ 5 aif FS ui 202 So it's -- maybe I'm not making this clear, it's a cover ur $ 93 | in a sense, but it's not a phony cover, in other words. Ww é 24 Mr. Schwarz. Dual purpose. 2 ; 25 Mr. Harvey. It was a dual purpose. TOP SECRET HW 50955 DBDocld:327261945 Page 6@
TOP SECRET ~ 50 1 Mr. Schwarz. You mentioned QJWINN. Was OJWIN! an agent .2 who you did hold in reserve for possible usa in connection | * 3 [with the Executive Action program? Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 4 Mr. Harvey. No, QUWIN' is an agent that I considered for 5 |possible use and used for a limited period through (Arne 6 ||for the spotting of individuals with criminal and underworld RT, «= Rr cman TESST y connections in Europe for possible multi-purposa use, none of EEE 8 whom were ever advised of the use, none of whom, as far as I g | Personally know, were. ever used. 10 Mr. Schwarz. But tha multi-purpose use included as one 1] |} Purpose the possible use in assassination? ev 2 12 Mr. Harvey. Only #he sense that had we ever been saddled 13 with a flat, if you will, command performance on assassination. ° 14 I might have considered the people spotted by WIN: as possibil- 15 ities. | 16 But, you see, before anybody that is ever spotted is 7 approached for any operation and particularly -- and please, I 18 don't mean to sound pedantic on this, i-doen*t-mean-to-—-- is P Abell BL g 19 actually approached, there #s—~a long period of assessment, 3 20 crosschecks, so on and so forth. This particular spotting : 21 echanism never actually want that far, as far as I know. ‘ 29 I only know of one use made by QJWIN until we terminated : 03 him some months later, I don't remember the exact date. It was i 24 before I went to Rome. I know it was in connection with an 25 peration in the Congo that was not an assassination operatio top secret Yably WW 50955 Docld:32261945. Page 9
WARD & PAUL HW 50955 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 29 Docld: 322361945 Page 10 TOP SECRET - 51 and had, as far as I know, Personally, at least, nothing to do with assassination. I have checked pages 1 and 2 and 3 and my page 4, Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 4 through 7, in your judgment; pages that were written by {it Mr. Harvey. As a guess, I'd say they appear to be in the same writing as these first three pages. Mr. Schwarz. Are pages 8 and 9 pages that are written by you? Mr. Harvey. Well, just a moment, let me get to those. I would also like to point out that from page 4 that -- that is page 4, as long as it continues in the same handwriting was - not a part of this so-called Project Outline, these I would guess. were probably fatenoldasn en's notes and probably ae based, at least to an extent, on discussions he had with me, and certain.sort of problems and questions and principles that I tossed out to be considered and cares to be exercised. Mr. Schwarz. Then pages 8 and 9 are in your handwriting, is that right?” Mr. Harvey. Pages 8 and 9 are in my handwriting. Mr. Schwarz... And at the bottom of page 8, does that indicate that you had a conversation with & ivergon January 26th? Mr. Harvey. Yes, it does. Mr. Schwarz. And is it’ your judgment that that is January TOP SECRET .
TOP SECRET - g 52 a ro \ 3 = 1 26, 1961 and is about the subject of Executive Action? oO 9 Z a Mr. Harvey. Yes, it is. 2 5 Mr. Schwarz. And it followed your conversation with Mr. 4 (Bissell that you have recounted? 8) Mr. Harvey. I think probably that might be -- well, when 6 ||I first looked at this, I thought this, well, this has got to 7 |tbe '62, but I am almost certain now that it is not. If this 8 |\is true, this might piace | the first discussion | that I had with 9 Dick Bissell yn this’ is. difficult - to pinpoint 10 | because there were several such discussions in varying degrees ll |} of detail during the period in the spring, and very early in 12 | '61 to the fall of '61 period, but I did find out fairly early 135 |} on that #S@ier had “~~ or that Bissell had discussed the question WARD & PAUL 14 | of assassination with fAter id. Sisiver , and this discussion at ‘Seer El 15 | the very least, had to take place after I know Bissell already 16 || had discussed the matter with{Silver¥ x. tome aesarmssnsne SSE . 17 Now, these two pieces of paper, well, I say two pieces of 18 | paper, what they are from -- they are in my handwriting. It's 19 | from a yellow pad, probably the duplicate of this that I used 20 || to keep on my desk and just’ make rough notes of conversations 2] | that I had, telephone and otherwise, with various people. 202 Once a week I would igo through them and either destroy them 2% classified | ‘trash; . dictate from them, or occasionally save 24 |i them. There is no relationship between the material that 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 | appears after the line two-thirds of the way down the page, just TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32261945 Page li
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL HW 450955 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ‘Docla:32 81945 Page 12 TOP SECRET 33 before the “ 26/18AS,., and the material which appears above it which is tabbed SID G, tab 21. Mr. Schwarz. That would be Sid Gottlieb? Mr. Harvey. Sid Gottlieb. Mr. Schwarz. Doesn't the conversation with Sid Gottlieb on the 25th of January indicate you had discussion which include the word bankruptcy and you felt assassination was -- Mr. Harvey. There was a general philosophic discussion of assassination and assassina&tion techniques. There was also a discussion on a number of other things that were of particular and specific interest to the communications intelligence field and the clandestine service's responsibilities aspects, if you will, and as best I can recall this conversation, this was a sort of an exchange of ideas and briefing session, probably held at the request of Sid Gottlieb in my office shortly after he either took over a new job in TSD or took over as actual Chief of TSD, which was the Technical Services Division of the clandestine services. 3 Mr. Schwarz. Now the reference in the middle of that conversation with Mr. Gottlieb to "Last resort beyond last resort and a confession of weakness.” That's referring to assassination? Mr. Harvey. That's obviously referring to assassination. That's probably what I told Sid Gottlieb my opinion’ .on the use and propriety of assassination as a technique was. TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET 8 | 55 1 |of operational philosophy which I expressed to Gottlieb, that : 2 |the question then came in pure theory as to -- as in such cases | ; 5 4S, now assumptions, the. example of 3 wrong, I am not really 4 |}Sure. But the closest that I can come is that the assumptions - | 5 |it might be desirable in a purely theoretical discussion and in | 6. my opinion we were wrong. Whether I said that to Gottlieb in i 7 | the words that are here, I just don't know. 3 8 Mr. Schwarz. Who were the two besides Mr. Trujillo that : g9 |make up the examples of 3? | 10 Mr. Harvey. I prasume ~~ I have no idea, but I presume | 11] | that the logical candidates at :ithat point would have been 2 12 || Lumumba and Castro. By. logical candidates, I mean not that : 13 |We were considering them in this discussion as logical targets * 14 for assassination, but that these -were sort of the three 15 people that would come to mind ;if you are going to go into this, 16 | these are three to be considered. tape 2b 19 But you will notice,’ if.I may,. Myr. “Schwarz,- "Framework of Cee is the name of #hé staff 18 Sid's job. — - Memo." 19 officer who worked for me in Division D at that time. 20 This “translating machine" was an axperimental device, 2] done’ under == hoped for development | that I was most 20 interested in, because of the serious translation problem that 29 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 24 So you see this was not a discussion strictly within the 25 framework of either assassination as a specific, or assassinatio HW 0955 a $1945 Page 13 TOP SECRET
| | | Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 ne 50955 10 li le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 25 24 29 TOP SECRET 56 as a general problem. Mr. Schwarz. Now, the material commencing on handwritten page 4 and commencing in the middle of page 3 of the Senator's notes, reflects in your judgment the conversation that you had with He Sadiverjjand it is his notes about that conversation, is that right ? Mr. Harvey. That is my best guess. It may also, however, include his own thinking. and: so forth. I doubt if it includes -- it certainly would not include any specific discussions, I don't think,,with other officers, wwas under specific instructions not to discuss this as such with anybody else, at least without clearin Jit with me first. Mr. Schwarz. And he starts, for example, by! talking’ about “Legal, ethical, morale, operational problems" and so forth, Mr. Harvey. Yes, it does. Mr. Schwarz. Down toward the end of entry 3b -- and 3 has the heading "Maximum security" -~ do you see that on page 4? Mr. Harvey. Yes, I see it. Mr. Schwarz. There is a sentence which reads as follows -- two sentences, which I should read into the record, three sentences. "Within Kubark" -- now, is that the CIA? DocTd: 32081945 Page 14 . TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, 5.E£., Washington, D.C. 20004 HW 50955 LO ame le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22 £9 24 29 DoclTd:32281945 Page 15 TOP SECRET - 60 crossed in this document. | Mr. Schwarz. One way or the other? Mr. Harvey. That's right. One way or the other. Mr. Schwarz. Your note has a report to the DCI, the January 26th reference, which reads in the first line SAS Mr. Harvey«. Mr. Schwarz. Then it appears to say f-a-n-f-o-r-n DCI matter. What does that mean? Mr. Harvey. I am not sure. The closest T' could come to that is a fairly illogical Fanfani,. and Fanfani. was never even dreamed of, as far as I know, in any such context. Fanforn -~- Burton Wides raised that with me, and I just had to throw up my hands. I just don't know. Mr. Schwarz. And you don't know what the reference to DCI in the notes means? Mr. Harvey. No, I am sorry, I do not, at this point, Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Schwarz. Okay. Mr. Harvey. Are you asking “Me to try to interpret the portion of this that is in my handwriting, or are you satisified at this point? Mr. Schwarz. Well, the other items, it seems to me, are either not “important or are understandable. Maybe some of the Members have questions. TOP SECRET
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