JFK Assassination System Date: 10/20/20 Identification Form , Agency Information AGENCY: HSCA ; ; Released under the John RECORD NUMBER:  180-10110-10067 . Kennedy LWSsassination Records RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED FILES ollection Act of 1952 (44 usc 2107 Note). AGENCY FILENUMBER: 065-JFK ase#iNW 56629 Date: 4-13-2016 Document Information ORIGINATOR: HSCA FROM: AZCUE, EUSEBIO TO: TITLE: DATE: 04/01/1978 PAGES: 43 SUBJECTS : OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO MEXICO AZCUE, EUSEBIO, INTERVIEW DOCUMENT TYPE: OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT CLASSIFICATION: — Unclassified RESTRICTIONS: — Consulted CURRENT STATUS: Withhold DATE OF LASTREVIEW: 08/08/1993 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : With attached interview.Box 3. v9.1 1 HW 56629 Docld:322763472 Page 1
HW 56329 AGENCY RECORD NUMBER RECORD SERIES AGENCY FILE NUMBER ORIGINATOR FROM TO TITLE DATE PAGES DOCUMENT TYPE SUBJECT(S) CLASSIFICATION RESTRICTIONS CURRENT STATUS DATE OF LAST REVIEW COMMENTS Date in: 03/22/95 DoclId: 32263472 MEXICO; AZCUE, EUSEBIO, v04-03-95ccr JFK RECORDS Referred to: Referred on: HSCA 180-10110-10067 SECURITY CLASSIFIED FILES 065-JFK DOCUMENT INFORMATION HSCA AZCUE, EUSEBIO 04/01/78 43 OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT OSWALD, LEE, POST-RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO INTERVIEW; ; UNCLASSIFIED 256 REFERRED 08/08/93 With attached interview.Box 3. Euschio Aree not Cobo (ongul ivn Moxto Cy nw 1463. Ogun inf vit t= full ‘IT 2| 14 le Page 2?
Oe ee flv A CLS 2A fs 7 KENNEDY COMMITTEE SENSITIVE a _ OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT CO7136 DATE _ TIME Z ““saprti-t; 1978. —3T00-pr Ie - Identifying Information: | . Name Eusebio. Azcue Telephone “Cuba Address > Type of Contact: | _ Telephone re | Person a II. Summary of Contact: Preyer Christo her Dodd, _G. Robert Blake Gary Cornwell : and Edwin Juan Lopez. ae E829. » poctisenaHiiS€ tvaue_
Select Committee on Assassinations U.S. House of Representatives WASHINGTON, D.C. 20515 oe Pehees bow: Mpewey 6. Ev Te. Tap # —— ac! wale! Ploks Quit fet - Pexted + — Chaar + © be. yes parce, Ae, fae ~ 32LF — eye QBVa be fatty 105 KK, ArT - | Cre ie Mextes NOTES * 6&6. ie — “7 f We jot 7 ead Sees ; wee £3 L, if free fe? ~ SX C EA f Woe fr. -f QC ky = ty eH 4 LkS Te ra feo > cok ioe £ a | 3 ? er ™ (- é _ HW 56329 DBocld:322763472 Page 4 seenemementimennae ein
Filan Yoon Sey ‘MEXICO CITY PROJECT 1. Show photos to: Sylvia Duran oo oe ne Le gee 7 ;Eusebio, Azcue. . . WYSE wnlineh le che ys ad. tte Se . Sylvia Odio Elena de Paz Elinita de Paz _ Red-headed Cuban Ugarte Gutierrez ‘Robert McKeown , University of Mexico student 2. Photos to show: > San Martin '.Emesto Betancourt Manolo Rey Carlos Hevia Alexander Rorke William Gaudet Enrique Molina Joe Molina Bill Medina Castellano All Embassy visitors Kerry Thornley John Masen Other potential Oswald - doubles Horatio Duran William Lowry ee ; . Three Tramps Eds fire An the vet . Besar dul de Torees 3.. Pull together documents: Duran testimony and interviews (Cindy) Duran Cable traffic (Hardway) Proenza - FBI report; Am Consul report; file review | (Hardway)- De Paz (Hardway) OO Jose Molina (Brady) Enrique Molina (Orr) -Arnesto Rodriguez (oxr/Lo pez) University of Mexico Student (Flanagan) Rorke - Mexico Cables - Cozumel - (Orr) JURE - Mexico cables (Lopez). - Warren Commission (Wizelman) Gutierrez. '  (Wizelman) Castellano , (Brady) Red-headed Cuban _ (Brady) HW 56829 Docld:322634731 page ts documents (Brady) ADD Bae wae ae
HW 56329 Code: A-Azcue S-Chairman Stokes B-Blakey P-Congressman Preyer C-Cornwell D-Congressman Dodd L-Lopez I do not believe the commander could have said such a thing. I mean there was no motive to say that, because this all occurred before the assassination of Kennedy. It was a routine application, and Oswald only had to deal with me, nobody else. Perhaps I mis-conveyed the information. The journalist is not indicating that Premier Castro, himself, overheard this. The journalist is indicating that these words are attributed to Mr. Oswald were heard by whomever dealt with Oswald in Mexico. Oh! I'm sorry. Well, I don't think Oswald said that. That's ridiculous. A person who has the mission to assassinate the President would not publicize it. That is ridiculous. Then you did not overhear him say this? No. Never. Then the words that are reported here were not overheard by you?. He never presented himself as having anything to offer. Did the person who appeared at the Embassy say anything like this? Never. That I would remember quite well. For that would have been of importance if he wanted to work with us. I would have sent the information to Cuba. And, as you know, that does not appear in the information I sent them. I would have registered that, that he wanted to work for us. That all happened in September. I would have listed it on the application, "This person wants to work for us". Docld: 322763472 Page 6
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 2 B: Do. you speak: Russian? A: No. B: Did anybody in the office at that time speak Russian? A: No. B: Then no. member of the Cuban Consulate in 1963 spoke Russian? A: That is correct., Nowdays probably many Cubans speak Russian. B: Did you have any telephones at the Embassy that could be used by the public? A: No. The only telephones that could be used were those in our offices. B: Could you describe to us the route that Oswald would have had to have taken to get into your office? A: If you want I will draw a schematic plan for you. B: Do it right here. (By right here, Professor Blakey means on one of the back pages of the questionnaire that was presented to the Cuban government, in copy number 4.) B: For the record, we will stop for about two minutes, while Mr. Azcue makes the drawing. We are back on the record. Mr. Azcue has prepared a drawing. Will you explain it to us, please, Mr. Azcue? A: This is the entrance. B: He is pointing to the right hand side of the drawing. A: These are the streets. @ B: Could you tell us some names of the streets, please? A: The one on the right is Francisco Marcos Street. The other one I cannot recall right now. HW 56829 Docld:322963472 Page 7
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 3 HW 56329 Mr. Azcue, may I ask that when you refer to the drawing, that you may recall that you are being recorded, that you speak in such a way that someone who is hearing the recording may be able to follow what you are saying. Fine. The entrance is in a corner between two streets. It is a large broad entrance, and we have a hall immediately following the entrance, which is the waiting room for visitors. The second part would be the consulate where the secretary would be sitting. There is a wall there made of wood and glass, the lower section made of wood, and the top section made of glass. that's the wall that the secretary would be looking into the waiting room and outside into the street, from where she sat. The secretary would be sitting at this point in the middle. Now around her would be furniture and desks. The secretary can see the entrance. She is in the proper position and that whole wall is made of glass, and everyone who comes, you , know, she can see whether they are coming in alone or whether they are coming in accompanied. She receives the company at this spot here. The person would normally come in and say that they have come to apply for a visa, and then she brings the person in to this spot. If there is any problem, she would call me, and I would come out of my office. &. Would she call you personally, or would she call you on the ( ‘ . phone? No, no. She would call me personally. We are very close. She would probably get up and call me, however, if. itcis .a.matter that is not routine, something that is different from the Docld: 322763472 Page 6
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 4 HW 56329 ordinary. You see in this case it was not a routine matter, for he wanted to expedite the process. After you had a conversation with Oswald, or when you had the conversation, would you point on the drawing to where you were standing? | Certainly. I would be here and he would be there. Would you tell me where the phones are in each’ of fice? Certainly. There was a telephone in this office, the secre- tary's office, at this spot and also a telephone in my office at this spot. I also had an intercom, but I did not normally use the intercom. I came out through'this door and I asked him to get out at this point, while we were standing here. I told him to get out now. Would it have been possible for him to have used your tele- phone? No. You see normally if somebody asks whether they can use our phone, we say sure, go ahead. But I remember that he did not ask me whether he could use our phone. To your knowledge, did anyone else in your office, Mrs. Duran, (permit) Oswald to make a phone call from your Consulate? It could have happened, yes. But there was no reason. If she wanted to authorize a phone call she could do it, but there was no reason to. Did you ever have any conversations with her, in which she indicated that she could have done it? No. Never. I met her again two years after the assassination, in November of 1965, and she was a very good friend of mine. Docld: 322763472 Page 9
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 5 B: A: B: B: A: C: HW 456529 Did you discuss this? Yes, of course. She told me about all her problems with the Mexican authorities. They had arrested her, they had put her picture on the front pages of the newspapers, that there was a tremendous scandal, you know, involving her. Did she discuss with you the confrontation that she had with Oswald? Of course. The same thing that happened to me. It had only been two years, and we remembered perfectly well. You see, the Mexican authorities wanted to implicate her, for you see, Since she was Mexican, even though she was Mexican she had no diplomatic privileges, and you see, they arrested her and they wanted to implicate her and they even treated her very badly. She defended herself though. She bit people and she kicked people and it was a very, very public thing, you know. A public scandal in the newspapers. They tried to coerce her. In those discussions that you had with her then, did she say anything about her memory in reference to the person who was there, as opposed to the person that she saw on TV? I really do not remember if: we discussed that. It's very likely that I spoke about that. I really do not remember it, because more than anything our conversation consisted of Mrs. Duran telling me about her problems with the Mexican authorities. Were all of the man's visits, whoever he was, during the normal working hours? You know, from 10 to 2? Docld: 322763472 Page 10
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 6 HW 56329 Yes, yes. We always closed at 2 in the afternoon and always opened at 10 A.M. Without exceptions? Yes, that's true. Possibly though somebody could contact us by phone. Would that routine also cover Saturdays and Sundays? Saturdays, yes. Sundays, no. Trying to be as careful as possible about the dates, would it have been consistent or inconsistent in the operating procedures of your Embassy for the secretary to fill out the visa applica- tions for Mr. Oswald on a first visit there, even though he did not bring the picture? It is not likely. It could be, but it's just not likely. For on the first day the person is informed that he has got to have a passport, . photos, and etcetera. The day on which you finally told the man to leave, do you remember if that transpired on the day that he filled out the visa, one day after he had filled out the visa, or two days after he had filled out the visa? | It was probably. a day after he filled out the visa application, or maybe two days after he filled out the application. You see, Mr. Oswald had to go to-the Soviet Embassy and I do not feel | that it is very easy to go to the Soviet Embassy and resolve the problem quickly, then return to the Cuban Embassy. He probably came to our Embassy on the 27th of September and on the 28th he probably went to the Soviet Embassy, and he probably returned to the Cuban Embassy on the 29th. And it is on the 28th that “the Soviet Embassy probably called me. That is probably the Docld: 322763472 Page i1
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 7 HW 56329 most logical (thing), but it didn't necessarily have to occur that way. It is though the most logical. This document was presented to us by the Cuban government yesterday. It is a letter dated October the 15th, 1963, and it appears on page 12 of the book that the Cuban government handed over to the Committee. Do you recall the letter? | Yes, this is a routine letter. And the Cubans received the applications, that is, when they receive a request from a North American citizen, he has to call us by telephone, prepaid, as often as possible to check whether his visa has been accepted, his visa application has been accepted. He should call us though only when he has the visa from the Soviet Union. Were you still in Mexico on this date? Yes, of course. Ah, now that I look at the letter I remember the full name of the consul that was going to take my place. His name was ..Alfredo: Mirabal. Could you tell us the address to Mr. Mirabal? I was already handing the whole office to him. I was teaching him all the procedures. But you were, at any rate, still there when this letter came in?- Yes, of course. But this is a routine letter. I did not even need this letter. I mean, whenever the Soviet Embassy notified us that the Soviet government had authorized a visa, then T also, the Cuban government could authorize a visa. | Do you know whether or not any action was taken upon receipt of this letter? Docld:322763472 Page 12
S: A: HW 56329 Azcue - Tape 2 - Page 8 We just filed it, that's it. This is only a notice, this letter. It has no implications whatsoever. Would you_have had a..forwarding address for. Mr. Oswald on October 15th, and if so,.would you have forwarded this letter to him? No, I did not have a forwarding address, but even if I had had one I would not have forwarded the letter for, first he would have needed the Soviet visa, and then we could have acted. If you would once again look at the visa application, Document #779, will you estimate how old you think that man in the picture is? Well, I would say he's about 28 to 30. But the man I remember as having visited the Embassy was over thirty-five years old. It is also interesting I haven't seen this picture, ‘you know, in all these years. It's the first time that I see this picture, in a long, long time, but yet the memory I have of that man that went to the Consulate differs from this photo. Could I ask you again how long Mr. Oswald remained in your office on his first visit there? I would say ten or fifteen minutes at the most. That first visit is always very quick. We let them know exactly what they need-- a passport, a photograph, and then they ask us -how long will it take to process the matter, and etcetera. The first visit always consists of only an interchange of ideas, an interchange of information. On the second time, was he there longer? Yes, because he had to wait for the visa application to be Docld:322763472 Page 153
Azcye - Tape Two - Page 9 HW 56329 filled out. He had to wait for the application to be typed. So how long would he have been there on the second occasion? Oh, approximately fifteen minutes. He had no reason to remain there any longer. You see, he doesn't spend a lot of time with me. It is one of those routine, you know, matters that a secretary usually handles. You see he spent a very short time with me on that second visit because he came back with the impression that after his conversation at the Soviet Embassy everything would be expeditiously handled. But then I had to explain to him that that was not so. You see, even though, I had to tell him that even though his papers were legitimate papers, that if the Soviet Union had to consult Moscow, then I Ought to explain to him that he had to wait. And then at that point he got angry, then I threw him out. So then how long would that argument between the two of you have taken? | I cannot calculate it for you. But it's one of those conversa- tions that transpires quickly. Well, he would have spent at most ten minutes with me and possibly another five minutes with the secretary before she called me into the office. See, what I had to explain to him could be done very quickly, and you see, he got offensive and I threw him out. Mr. Azcue, on the application which is signed, in which everyone purports that it is Lee Harvey Oswald's signature, it's also a signature lower than Mr. Oswald's signature and is done in green ink. Would you recognize that signature? I think that this signature may have been put on the application once it arrived in Havana, for I do not recognize it as one of Docld: 322763472 Page 14 :
@ Azcue - Tape Two - Page 10 the signatures from our Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. Can anybody here make out what that signature says? Cuban officials: No, we've already concluded that it's illegible. A: Does anybody recognize it as Mrs. Duran's signature? Cuban officials: No. We think it is illegible. A: It is not my signature. My signature is very clear. You can make out my name. B: Will you write your signature here for us, Mr. Azcue? A: Of course. Here's my signature. You can read my name here. Azcue, A-Z-C-U-E. I've written it on the same page that I drew the schematic of the Cuban Embassy before. @ S: Mr. Azcue, on this visa application, there is a section entitled "observations". Will you read that section so that I may ask you a guestion about it? | | A: Of course. This is exactly what I was talking about before. It says that he exhibited those certain documents. It says that he showed us papers stating that he was a member of the Communist Party me * Of America, and. Secretary of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans. He was in the Soviet Union from October 1959 until June 9, 1962, that there he got married with a Soviet citizen... social documents that accredit him as a member of the two organizations previously mentioned, and also a wedding certifi- cate. He presented himself in front of the Soviet Embassy, asking that his visa be sent to the Cuban Embassy. This is very @ interesting, because you see here it seems like we're going to give him the visa. It seems like whoever wrote this thought that we were going to give him the visa. There's also a small HW 56829 DoclId:322963472 Page 15
Azcue - Tape Two - Page il HW 56329 difference here, for we called the Soviet Embassy, it. says here, and what we understand, what I understand that occurred was that we called the Soviet Embassy and in fact they called us. Maybe a secretary called the Soviet Embassy and then the Soviet Embassy called me, that's possible. TI recall that when they called us they told us that they would first have to get authorization. What I do not recall is that they said it would take about four months, and it states so here in the observations section of the application. With reference to this application, when the secretary typed this up, who would’ have nade thigyobservation, whd.would have been in her presence, who would have dictated it to her? If you will allow me, the secretary would only type the information above the observation section in front of the applicant. The other material, thus the secretary probably aia it after Mr. Oswald left. So that none of the information that appears on this application was taken directly by you? That is correct. It is not my job. It is not the Consul's job; it is the secretary's job. This is a routine matter that has no importance, for the Consul to be the one to do it. This information is sent to Cuba and then it is studied there. Was there more than, was Mrs. Duran the only secretary in the office, or was there more than one secretary there? No. Mrs. Duran was the only one. So then in the total office, there was just yourself, Mrs. Duran and the Consul who was going to replace you, Mirabal. That's correct? Docld: 322763472 Page 16
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 12 r S: A: HW 56329 Yes, that's correct. Doesn't it also appear in the application that he wishes to leave for Cuba on September 30th? Um, I, oh, yes, here it is. It says "wishing to depart for Cuba on September 30th". That is correct. If the section "observations" there, »someone-states.that.we called the Soviet Embassy, but yet your best. recollection is that the Soviet Embassy called you, is that correct? Both things might be true. It could happen that the secretary called the Soviet Embassy, and then the Soviet Embassy called me back. What-I recall is that the Embassy called me back. After the assassination of President Kennedy, the name Lee Harvey Oswald became very important. And as a result of that you brought all of the facts that you knew to the Cuban government. Well, it, of course, is very important to the Cuban government. Now, after you talked to the man from the Ministry about this, what. transpired? Was it followed up? . Let me explain this to you. I contacted the Ministry of Foreign Relations, Foreign Affairs, which was my ministry and there I spoke with “Nilo Otero,“ ~~ and Raul Roa!,?, stepped in for a minute and then they said "Wait a minute. Let us call the Ministry of Interior." Then they saw the.-importance of the matter and they took care of it. Was there a stenographer there at that time? No, there was not. The interview was a personal interview between myself and the Cormandante, and I dé not recall*that there was a stenographer present. Docld: 322763472 Page i7
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 13. HW 56329 Have you recalled now, later on, that there might have been a stenographer present? No, never. What I said there, because of the importance it had, Mr. Pinero, you know, who raised about eighty questions, many more than what you've asked me so far today. Do you recall signing a statement after you: had given them a declaration? No. No. It was a very informal thing. , We drank coffee three or four times. One final question, what is the date stamped in the middle of the page, in blue? october 10, 1963? It is probably ours, but it seems very late because from September 27th until October 10th, thirteen days transpired, - and I remember that my office was always up to date and, you see, the applications always. left on the next mail delivery, mail schedule which would never take more than three or four days, so I think that the date stamped on this visa was the date that. it was received here in Cuba. I will tell you, it never took so long to get an application out. We would do that immediately, do it immediately. It was just a routine matter. I had already seen that date before and it seemed very rare to me. It would never take me thirteen days. Three or four days, maybe, but never thirteen. I have only a couple of more questions. Would it be normal procedure for the person who fills out the observation section to sign their name in the lower right hand corner. Yes, but the problem is that that signature does not corres- pond to any of the people that worked at the office -there. Docld: 322763472 Page 18
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 14 HW 56329 “It could have been signed by the secretary, but the signature does not correspond. “It. could have been signed by Mirabal or myself. Once again the signature does not correspond. But | the signature would not be necessary for the Consulate stamp is already on it. Earlier you indicated that there came a time , you heard of an investigation in New Orleans, Jim Garrison. At that time, you recalled that you had the same theory that the person might not be the same. Did you talk with anyone about that, at that time? Yes. I did, but not officially to anybody. I spoke with Nilo, ."..: who was the director of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and I also remembered that I spoke to Lechuga. y=, Could you give us their full names? | Yes. Nilo Otero. Do you know if he took any measures after that conversation? Mr. Otero told me that he would report it to those people that could do something about it. To your knowledge, do you know if he did 50? As far as I know, I think so. But you know, what I was saying was so subjective, because I could not guarantee that I was right. You see, since it was such a subjective statement, you know, they probably took it with a grain of salt. Let me direct your attention back in time to the period when the Warren Commission was operating in the United States. Did anyone speak to you at that time about any of these matters? This would have been from December of '63 through September of "64. DoclId:322763472 Page 19
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 15. HW 56329 Yes, I'm sure they. did; but not officially. I mean, Fidel's speech was just the definitive thing...expressed to the world very clearly the whole situation that, you know, had occurred to us, insuring, you know, our position and even included the fight that I had with Oswald. Fidel said all this, you know, in his speech. There was nothing more to say. I cannot at this time think of anything more to ask you. I'm sure that I will as soon as we say goodbye. I hope that you will permit me, if I have second thoughts, to forward them to you through your government. It will be my pleasure. One last question. After we said that we're finished, now I-have another question. I'm sorry. You told us when you started to speak to us that you had gone over the story many times. You tell us that you told the story to Mr. Piniero. Who else have you reported this story to? Officially, under the direction of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and also with Mr. Piniero. That is officially. Premier Fidel got all the details that I could remember and by that time everything that I knew, the Cuban government knew. At that time I could remember everything that had transpired. Have you been spoken to by any reporters, you know, American reporters, or anything like that? No, never. I never would have authorized any interview with me. But, I presume that the reason you have talked about this several times, is because of your private conversations? Yes, sir. “The topic of conversation arose whenever we talked about people trying to involve us or implicate us in the Docld: 322763472 Page 270
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 16 HW 56329 assassination. Dia you have a chance to review earlier, before you talked to us today, the report that you had made to the government in 1963? No, never.. There was an interview, I was interviewed by our Consul in Washington, Mr. Escartin, a two months ago. I said the same thing that I am telling you now. It is all I know. That's all I remember. There may be different words used by me, but same story. Let me direct your attention to photo number 60, in the book, in the photograph book. Do you know that individual? No. | Is the face familiar at all? No. It's not. Mr. Azcue, on behalf of our Committee, I want to express our thanks for having appeared here this afternoon, having subjected yourself to our questions. You have been most patient with us. You have indeed been helpful to us.in our investigation and we certainly appreciate your taking the time to be here. Many thanks. But I also feel that you can be very beneficial to us, for you can clarify once and for all, for you can clarify the facts of the assassination, surrounding the assassination once and for all. That's exactly why we are here and why we asked you to be our sPogteaye So wy es PY. witness. Thank you. Docld: 322763472 Page ?1
@ HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 1 _ se: ‘ pag COMMITTEE SENSITIME BLAKEY: I wonder if you would state your name for the record. . AZCUE: Mr. Azcue - Eusebio Azcue. BLAKEY: How old are you? : AZCUE: 66 years old. BLAKEY: Are you now employed? AZCUE: I am now retired. BLAKEY: Where were you formerly employed? AZCUE: I was formerly employed in construction. I was an architect and I was working until I got heartsick. BLAKEY: Were you employed in 1963? AZCUE: Yes. I was the Cuban consul. BLAKEY: Where? —_ a AZCUE:: Mexico City. -°  -) 2 .BLAKEY::, In that connection, do you recall meeting Lee Harvey Oswald? , AZCUE: Yes. He came to us in order to apply for a visa to go to Cuba. BLAKEY: Could I show you a document then which is marked "Request for a Visa No. 779"? May I ask you if that is the copy of the visa filled out by Lee Harvey Oswald? AZCUE: Yes. This is his signature. And this is his -picture. The date is correct - September 27th. This visa was issued in the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. BLAKEY: Was this signature signed in your presence? AZCUE:: Yes, of course. BLAKEY: “Would you tell us in your own words all the facts and circumstances that you recall about the application? COMMITTEE SENSING. Docld:322763472 Page 22
‘@ HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 2 AZCUE: Yes, of course. I recall it quite well for I had to remember this meeting on several different occasions when many were trying to involve us in this assassination. He visited the embassy on that date, September 27th, or a previous date to solicit a visa. BLAKEY: Would you remember the date of the first request? AZCUE: It would be one or two days before the date on the application. BLAKEY: And do you remember the date of the second..visit? AZCUE: Exactly the date on the application - September 27th. BLAKEY: ‘Would you tell us exactly what happened the first time he was with you? AZCUE: He applied for a visa and brought a paper accrediting him as a member of the Communist Party of the American nations. He also brought documents accrediting him as a member of the Fair Play For Cuba, which was an association aiding Cuba at the time. He said he was going to the Soviet Union but he wanted an intransit visa to visit Cuba for one or two weeks. " BLAKEY: Do you recall what time of day it was when he came? AZCUE: He came in the morning between 10:00: and 12:00 or 10:00 and 1:00. | BLAKEY: Is there anything in your mind that fixes it at this precise hour? Docld:322763472 Page 23
HW 56329 -Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 4 AZCUE: No. BLAKEY: Was there anything that he might have said that would lead you to believe that he was alone? AZCUE: No. He had no reason to relate any of that informa- tion to me. BLAKEY: Could you tell us about what time he came the second time? AZCUE: He came at approximately the same time that he came on his first visit =.to bring. the photos and also to “£111 out-his application. BLAKEY: Did he tell you where he got the photograph? ‘AZCUE: No, he did not. BLAKEY: Did he indicate to you why he did not bring them with him the first time? AZCUE: > Nobody brings them the first time. He brought papers that belonged. to his wife that. stated that she was a citizen of the Soviet Union and he also brought papers that accredited him as a citizen of the Soviet Union which I myself . did not understand. But later I will explain how I found out. BLAKEY: Could you state what was said and done on the second occasion? AZCUE: On that occasion he asked me how long it would take for the visa application to get authorized. BLAKEY: And what did you tellhim? Docld: 322763472 Page 25
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 5 AZCUE: I told him that if he had friends in Cuba that would recommend him, the process would become expedited - would be expedited; but if not, the Cuban government would have to begin an investigation and I do not know exactly how long it - would take. BLAKEY: What was his response? AZCUE: He began to get irritated. He also brought a book of Lenin with him just for show, which I did not like. A communist does not need a book to show that he's a communist. He was somewhat upset already. He thought that we were going to give him the visa immediately. BLAKEY: What else did he say? AZCUE: See, I told him that if he had a visa to go to the Soviet Union I could give him an intransit visa to Cuba. He then left to go to the Soviet embassy. I don't really remember whether he went to the Soviet embassy that same day or the following day, but on that same day or the following day the Soviet embassy phoned me. The Soviet consul called me to relate to me that the papers and documents that Oswald presented were legitimate. His marriage certificate stating that he was married to a Soviet resident and his documents that showed that he had been to the Soviet Union were apparently in order. At that time I asked the Soviet consul whether they were going to give him a visa. He said:.. "No." He said he had to consult Moscow. At that time I said: "Well, then, I have to consult Cuba." Docld: 322763472 Page 276
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 6 BLAKEY: Did Oswald ever make any phone calls between the Cuban and the Soviet embassy? AZCUE: Not from the consulate. He visited the Soviet embassy in person. BLAKEY: Did he ever call the Cuban embassy from the Soviet embassy? AZCUE: It was the Soviet consul that called me. BLAKEY: Could it be possible that he spoke to someone else in your embassy besides yourself? . AZCUE: Yes, with my secretary. BLAKEY: And who is she? AZCUE: She is a Mexican lady, but someone that the Cuban government fully trusts and also trusted by the consul: that was going to replace me -- for I was getting ready to return to Cuba. It appears to me that Oswald came back to surprise me. He came back and told me that he had already been at the Soviet embassy and that all his papers had been considered legitimate. He thought that when he stated that to me I would give him a visa. Then I told him: "No, I have to consult Cuba." He then got very upset and called us bureaucrats. He stated that that was bureaucracy, and at that point I also got angry and asked him to leave. Then he left. BLAKEY: Did he say anything else? Docld: 322763472 Page 2?7
@ Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 7 AZCUE: Well, you know, he left mumbling to himself. BLAKEY: Might you be able to remember anything else that he might have said? AZCUE: No,-he just got very upset when he did not get the visa. BLAKEY: Did he ever give you any indication of why he wanted to go to the Soviet Union? AZCUE: Yes. He said he wanted to go to the Soviet Union because he had already been there and that was his place of residence... He also stated that his wife was a Soviet citizen -- and because he was a member of the Communist Party. ® BLAKEY: Did he ever give you any indication of why he wanted to go to the Soviet Union through Cuba? | AZCUE: Yes, of course.. He said that he wanted to see our revolution. He said he wanted to visit Cuba. BLAKEY: How long did he indicate that he wanted to stay in Cuba? RZCUE: He said one_or two_weeks. . ee —— = ' BLAKEY: Doesn't the visa application state how long he wanted to be there? ~~ fk ee —. ........-AZCUE: A week or 15 days, or something to that effect. Here's. — “the visa. It says two weeks and, if|!possible, more time. BLAKEY: Could you tell us the name of your secretary? @ AZCUE: Yes, of course, Sylvia Duran. Now she is -no longer Sylvia Duran for she's now divorced and Duran was her husband's name. She is very well known for she had very serious problems HW 56329 DBocld:322763472 Page 23
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 8 with the Mexican authorities on account of this visit. In fact, she was arrested. BLAKEY: . Did you ever have any conversations with her about her contact with Lee Harvey Oswald? AZCUE: I don't think she had had any contact with him. She was just there. Mrs. Duran found it very strange that I had not given Oswald the visa considering that his wife was a resident of the Soviet Union and that he, Oswald himself, had been a resident of the Soviet Union and that he had papers showing that he was a member of the Communist Party. But I don't think she had any contacts with him. STOKES: Who also would have been present in your office, Mr. Azcue, on Oswald's first visit? AZCUE: The secretary was there and also consul: Mirabal had become familiar with the papers and documents at the office for he was getting ready to replace me. | STOKES: What is the name of the secretary? AZCUE: Sylvia Duran. STOKES: Could we have the full name of the consul that was going to replace you? AZCUE: At present, I do not remember his first name, but his last name was Mirabal. STOKES: But at any rate, it was he who replaced: you as consul? AZCUE: Yes, at the end of November -- really, in the middle of November when I returned to Cuba. Docld: 322763472 Page 29
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 9 STOKES: And where is Mr. Mirabal now? AZCUE: Here in Cuba. STOKES: You mentioned that Oswald brought some papers with him when he first came to the embassy. Did they have anything to do with his membership in the Communist Party, you said? AZCUE: Yes, I think so. Actually, though, I did not analyze them very carefully. STOKES: weil those documents have been made a part of the application? AZCUE: No, no. They were just like introduction letters -- that kind of thing. STOKES: So then there would be no other papers in connection with his application other than this application here? AZCUE: That was the only one. STOKES: Would there be any recording of the conversation between. you and Lee Harvey Oswald? | AZCUE: We did not use recorders at that time. STOKES: Could you tell us the name of the Soviet consul whom you spoke to? AZCUE: No. The consul’ was a very good friend of mine - Pablo Yazco - but I don't think he was in charge of that at the time. The man I spoke to was another whose name I really do not remember now. I just don't recall the name of the consul that replaced Pablo Yazco. So many names that just get lost in your memory. But in subsequent conversations with the Soviet embassy, I was able to learn they thought that Oswald's papers were legitimate Docld: 322763472 Page 30
© HW 56529 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 10 -- his papers and his wife's papers. He lived in the States. STOKES: And then Oswald's second visit to your embassy -- who would have been present? AZCUE: The secretary - always the secretary - because she would be the one who would receive visitors and then call me. STOKES: How about the consul that replaced you -- would | he have been present? AZCUE: I don't.think he was there. I do remember that sylvia was there, though. He was only learning. He understood no English and was not very active at that time. STOKES: Did you at some time come into contact with Marina Oswald? AZCUE: Marina? You mean the wife? No, no, never. STOKES: During the: time that Oswald was at your embassy and was angry, do you recall his saying anything at all about President Kennedy? AZCUE: No, not in the least. DODD: Just a couple of questions. (1) In looking at this photograph -- if you will take a look at it -- I realize » that we are going back a long time -- Do you recall if Lee.. Harvey Oswald was dressed in a tie and sweater like that? AZCUE: No, he was not. He had a suit on. I even remember the color of the suit. It was a very light blue Prince of Wales suit. DODD: Was he wearing a tie? . Docld:322763472 Page 31
© Eusebio Azcue Interview.. -page ll AZCUE: Yes, he did. In Mexico everybody wears a tie due to the weather. DODD:. Would wearing a sweater in Mexico be a common thing?. AZCUE: It might be common, but most people normally - use a suit. But I remember that he had a suit on. DODD: Then you're saying that he would not have been dressed the way that he's dressed in the picture. AZCUE: No, that's right. | BLAKEY: Are there any places near your consul that he could have had this photograph taken? AZCUE: Yes, there's a place called Tocavaya four or five blocks from the embassy where he could have taken the picture. Also, maybe the secretary could have pointed out to him-a place where he could have gotten the picture. But he didn't come back the same day; he came the following day. DODD: Do you require a certain size of photograph for your documents? _AZCUE: Yes, approximately the size of this one in the photo in the application. We weren't very precise about. these applications for they weren't, you know, extremely legal documents. DODD: And that photo looks like the man that came to your office? HW 56329 DBocld:322763472 Page 32
AW 56629 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 12 AZCUE: Yes. But as time goes by and you have an idea of a face, you know, and then...See the impression I got was that in person he was thinner, his nose was more angular, angled, or aquiline.. His eyebrows were very straight. He had a very cold look. It was a penetrating, cunning way Of looking at you. BLAKEY: Could you give us an estimate of his height? AZCUE: That's very hard. He was about this big. BLAKEY: How tall are you? AZCUE: I'm over six feet tall. The man was probably around five feet six, five feet seven. BLAKEY: How much would he have weighed? AZCUE: I don't know. He was thin.- very thin, with a very aquiline nose. BLAKEY: . Maso menos ° AZCUE: You know, in an amusement park they touch you and they can guess exactly how much you weigh, but I don't have that talent. DODD: Approximately how old was he? AZCUE: Oh, around 35 years old. DODD: He looked like he was 35? AZCUE: You know, he: looked like he was a 35-year-old man but a 35-year-old man who had been run through the mill. he had a sort of wasted face, you know, he had a gangster looking face, a hard face. DODD: Is it a common experience to have Americans show up at your consul? Docld: 322763472 Page 353
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 13 AZCUE: Yes, there were many. DODD: That wanted to go to the Soviet Union? AZCUE: No, no, no, to visit Cuba only. Many, many came trying to visit Cuba. DODD: So the Oswald case was a rather rare occurrence? AZCUE: Yes, it was very rare. DODD: Did you make any special notations due to special circumstances? | AZCUE: No, because we just refused to give the visa. I would have taken detailed notes if I had given him the visa. I would’ have listed the reasons why I had given him the visa. But not having given him the visa, I had nothing to write about. This was only another one of those many requests that I knew would not be granted. For without contacts in Cuba, we could not grant him a visa. DODD: Did he leave any kind of forwarding address at all in case the visa came through? | AZCUE: He normally would have left an address if he had left my office amiably, but since he didn't... | DODD: But was the visa application in process? I mean, in other words, once he had filled out this -. once he had stopped at the Soviet embassy, then the request was in. Then was there any further action that you two or three weeks later...’ AZCUE: We transmitted the applications to Cuba. And then the person who was interested in the visa would call us periodically -- this was routinely done in every consulate -- asking for a reply. We constantly received telephone calls from people Docld:322763472 Page 34 :
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 14 that had applied for a visa. See, they're the ones who: have to call for they're the ones that are interested. DODD: But he never did? AZCUE: Right DODD: Bureaucratically, once you've submitted an application, you would presume that the process would continue whether you receive the call or not? AZCUE: Of course. Like I said before, everything was forwarded to Cuba. The Cuban government received the many copies of the applications with the picture and the signature. Our government received this application for a visa but they never sent us an answer. DODD: What do you mean by it was never answered? AZCUE: We did not receive a reply for his visa from the Cuban government. DODD: Going back to the physical appearance of Lee Harvey Oswald, apart from having a receding hairline, was there any gray in Lee Harvey Oswald's hair? AZCUE: You know, he had blond hair. It's all very interesting. You see, this picture I really did not study carefully. The picture was taken by the secretary and she ‘stapled it to the application, and we would send the whole thing to Cuba. Docld:322763472 Page 35
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 15 BLAKEY: But it is your memory that this picture portrays the person that you saw. AZCUE: The truth of the matter is that I remember him differently. I remember him thinner, but it is possible that it was the same person because pictures are never perfect. The impression that I have is that he was a very thin man with a very hard face -- a tough expression. PREYFR: The first time that he came to your embassy did he ask for an intransit visa or just a visa to Cuba? AZCUE: He did not ask for an intransit visa because people are not normally familiar with this process. But he did say that he wanted it to go on to Russia. PREYER: On his next visit when he brought the photos, I understand that he asked how long it would take for the Cuban visa at that time and you told him that if he knew..someone in Cuba it would be quicker. So then did you give him any dates as to how long it would take if he did not know anyone in Cuba? AZCUE: No, because I could not make any commitments. PREYER: Then he left to go to the USSR embassy. How far apart are the two embassies in distance? AZCUE: Three or four blocks. PREYER: Then presumably he could have walked there? AZCUE: Yes, of course, it was the only way. PREYER: Then did you receive a call shortly after that from the Soviet embassy? Docld: 322763472 Page 36
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 16 AZCUE: No, no, you see, it is likely that the interview of the Soviet consul took some time. In fact, I believe that it was the following day that he came back to see me. He may possibly have gone to the Soviet embassy on the same day, but it was only after the phone call from the Soviet embassy that Oswald visited the Cuban embassy again. It is known that he went to the Soviet embassy and that the Soviet embassy called me, but I think that this all happened the following day. PREYER: And the Soviet embassy told you that they would have to call Moscow? | AZCUE: Yes. They said that they could not grant him a visa without consulting Moscow first. PREYER: And then you told Oswald that? AZCUE:. When Oswald came to the Cuban embassy then, I also told him that I could not give him a visa and that if the . Soviet .embassy had to consult Moscow, I had, to consult Cuba. PREYER: Did he ask how long it would take? AZCUE: Yes. He asked that quite often, usually to Mrs. Duran. You know, everybody asks that. And our answer is always the same -- depending on your relations and friends and contacts in Cuba because they can. expedite the process. PREYER: | Did you or the Soviet embassy ever give him an approximate time that it would take for him to get the visa. -- that it would be a long time, or that it would be three weeks? Docld: 322763472 Page 37
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 17 AZCUE: No, no. PREYER: I ask you this because should it be a relatively short period of time that he would wait there for. the visa. But then you say you do not recall any specific... AZCUE: I think that I saw a deliberate purpose in him to get the visa from us. What he was interested in was getting. the visa from the Cuban government immediately. DODD: You would not have made any copies of. the. documentation that he showed you of the Fair Play For Cuba Committee or his membership in the United States Communist Party? AZCUE: I can never take away these papers from people. They are only for them to show us as examples. But it's the same at the Soviet embassy. They take data on the passport just like we took data here from his passport. I would take notes from documents like a passport and then return the passport to him -- never even retain them for a while. BLAKEY: Did you examine the passport? AZCUE: It is very likely - yes. ; \ BLAKEY: Would you have looked at the photograph on the passport? AZCUE: Yes, sure, you always look at them, but it is just a quick glance. BLAKEY: Would you have noticed that the person you saw before yourself was different from the person's photograph on ' the passport? Docld: 322763472 Page 33
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 18 AZCUE: Well, I'll tell you. The person that I found different was the person that came to the embassy and told me he was Oswald and the person that I later saw on TV when he was assassinated at that Dallas police station. At that point, it looked like two different people. BLAKEY: When you saw the passport, did you see any difference between the picture in the passport and the person standing in front of you ? AZCUE: No, no.. Normally I'm not a very analytical person. You see, it's usually the secretary that deals with all these matters. But the difference that I noted was between the man who came to the consulate and the one that was assassinated. BLAKEY: Mr. Azcue, let me show you a book of photographs which is the JFK exhibit of photographs. The book will contain a number of photographs. Would you look in each page slowly and study each face and determine whether you can recognize any of the persons there. Please take your time. Do not look for any one particular person. Just tell us if you recognize any of He photos. AT THIS POINT, THE CUBAN GOVERNMENT ASKED FOR A FIVE-MINUTE RECESS SO THAT MR. AZCUE COULD LOOK AT THE PHOTOS CAREFULLY. FOR THE RECORD, WHEN THE SESSION WAS RESUMED, THE SAME PEOPLE WERE PRESENT. APPROXIMATELY 15 MINUTES PASSED AS A RECESS IN WHICH MR. AZCUE HAS LOOKED THROUGH THE PHOTOGRAPHS. Docld:322363472 Page 39
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 19 BLAKEY: Would you tell us which, if any, of the photo- graphs are familiar to you? AZCUE: No. 57 represents Oswald, but the Oswald assassinated. But frankly, the idea that's in my mind of | Oswald - the one that I saw at the consulate - is not so similar to this photo. I recognize him because I remember the television clips. shown on of him when he was killed. If I had not seen those clips on television, I would not have recognized him as the Lee Harvey Oswald for the memories that I have of Oswald are similar to what appear on these photographs. Pictures resemble the man but I insist that his nose is more aquiline, that his eyelashes were straighter, his look was more cold, and his cheeks seemed older - that of an older man. His cheeks were sunken like that of an older man; also much older than this photo. This man in the photo would be at the most 30 years old and the man I saw in the consulate was 35, 36, 37; you know, this man in the picture is much younger. You see, it was many years ago, so - but I remember, Isaw the photo, the Oswald that had been assassinated. I did not recognize him as the same man that visited me.at the embassy - so different features - even a short time - had only been a few months, from September to December. BLAKEY: Can you remember the first time that you saw Oswald after the assassination? Was it on TV? Docld: 322763472 Page 40
@ Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 20 AZCUE: Yes, it was on TV. BLAKEY: Did you also see his photograph in the newspapers? AZCUE: Yes, in some magazines. BLAKEY: You said that you did not recognize the man when you saw him in the photos: and on TV? AZCUE: That is correct. I noticed some differences. I said: "Damn, this is not the man. This does not look like the man who went to my office." BLAKEY: Did you bring that difference to the attention of anyone else? r AZCUE: Yes, I. did - with comrades, you know, from the ministry. BLAKEY: Did you write any memoranda? - AZCUE: No, because such citings are usually very subjective. And they were just quick glances and could be inaccurate, especially those that I saw on TV. BLAKEY: ‘What about those in the newspaper? AZCUE: Those were not very clear. A clearer one was the film clip on TV when Oswald was killed at the Dallas police station. He makes a gesture of pain where he's got gleaming eyes, where he seemed to be younger and fatter than the man that had come to see me. I made it known to my superiors, but it was a very subjective thing, you know. The man that I saw © on TV did not resemble the man that I had seen in my. office. HW 56829 Docld:32263472 Page 41
@ Eusgebio Azcue Interview...page 21 BLAKEY : And what conclusion,..if any, did you draw from that? | | AZCUE: It was something that I saw and then said - problem is that you cannot really rely on my fast glance or a fast glance of a picture when a person is being killed. I immediately recognized that that was not the man that I had seen in the embassy. If it is true or not, I cannot really say for certain, but it seemed to me it was not the same man. BLAKEY: Do you think that if you saw a photo of the man who .was’ in your consulate that you would recognize it now? AZCUE: I think yes - yes, yes, yes. Yes, I think so. @ I think it's only a matter of, you know, angles; so I was seeing the man face to face. .And he was furious. But I also was furious. Thus the face I saw was one that was bothered and hard - tough - not the same face that I saw on this man here in the photograph. This man has a soft face, even to his death. Even in his death he has a passive look. It's a subjective opinion. Let me tell you. Months later, or maybe years later, I heard .the.mayor of New Orleans... BLAKEY: You mean the prosecutor in New Orleans, Garrison. AZCUE: Yes, that's right, Garrison. He began an investigation and he said there were two Oswalds. Then my theory was, you know, reaffirmed. That gave credence to my theory that the man that was assassinated and the man that © visited me were different persons. These are just subjective appraisals. I've got them. HW 56329 DBocld:322763472 Page 42
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 22 BLAKEY: President Castro, then Premier Castro made a speech a couple of days after the assassination in which he in- dicated that he had had a contact with the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. Do you recall that: contact? AZCUE: Yes, I do because he had had contact with me and only with me. The contact that I'm talking about is Oswald's contact only with me. LOPEZ: Professor Blakey is referring to contact of Fidel with the Cuban Embassy. | AZCUE: Oh, I understand, at that time I made some declara- tions just like I am making them now. The exception of the dual Oswald theory because of not seeing the photographs on television. BLAKEY: Did you speak directly with the President? AZCUE: No, I spoke to the man in charge of the Ministry. It was the guy in charge of the Ministry of Foreign Relations, Foreign Affairs. BLAKEY: By what medium did you talk to him? AZCUE: I spoke to him in person. BAKEY: pia you go from Mexico to Havana? AZCUE: No, no, I had already come to Havana. I- was in Havana. See, I came to Havana from Mexico on November 18th and on the 22nd was Kennedy's death. .So immediately, as soon as I saw the name I remembered. So at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs I said: "This man requested a visa from me." So then I had to make declarations, very exhaustive declarations, where I stated the same thing that I said now. Docld:322763472 Page 43
HW 56329 Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 23 BLAKEY: Was that report or declaration reduced to writing at that time? AZCUE: I think so. There was no stenographer there, but it may have been .taped. BLAKEY (then referring himself to the Cuban officials): Would it be possible for you to furnish us with a copy of that declaration if that is available? VILLA: We have no recordings or written declarations about that declaration that - written reports about the declaration that Mr. Azcue made. It is possible that it exists, but we have not located it as of yet. BLAKEY (to Mr. Azcue): Can you recall the person to whom the declaration was made? ‘AZCUE: Yes. It was the person in charge of the ministry of, you know, the interior - foreign relations, foreign affairs. LOPEZ: What was his name? AZCUE: Yes, it was Manuel Piniéro, . Comrade Manuel Piniero. - BLAKEY: (Quote) In an interview, July 1967,with a British journalist, Homer Clark, Castro said that Oswald came to the Cuban consulate twice, each time for approximately 15 minutes. "The first time I was told he wanted to work for us." He was asked to explain, but he wouldn't. He would not go into details. The second time he said that he wanted to free Cuba from Imperialism. Then he said something like: "Someone ought to shoot that Docld:32263472 Page 44
Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 24 President Kennedy." Then Oswald said (and this is exactly how it was reported to me): "Maybe I will try to do it." Would you. comment on this statement? HW 56329 DBocld:322763472 Page 45