TOP SECRET 36 1 lla decision before he is’ hooked. It is just like pulling a 2 || fish. “once you are hooked, you are hooked, buddy. 3 Senator Mondale. Well, let's put that in.so that this 4 ||guy may think that he is working for a private corporation and 5 then’ in fact it is a CIA front. | 6 , ‘Senator Huddleston. And if his government. found out when 7 |jhe got home -- 8 Senator Mondale. He would lose his head. ~ 9 Senator Schweiker. And then they scare him, and he has” LO |} no option at that point.. That is what I object to. 11 i Senator Huddleston. Senator Hart? | 12 Senator Hart of Colorado. Would you accept an amendment 13 |} to strengthen the last phrase, insted of just flagging it for | 14 |; the oversight committee, to require full and complete periodic 15 |\\reports of all recruitment activities to the oversight committe 16 Senator Mondale. Good. | ai Senator Huddleston. I think we have that in some other 18 recommendation. | | “1g Senator Mondale. But’ he wants in addition a periodic 20 reporting. | 21 Senator Hart of Colorado... So the oversight Committee | 99 knows periodically what is going on in that area. 23 - Mr. Kirbow. I think we can take it from the verbatim 24 || record, Mr. Chairman. 25 Senator Huddleston. Before we vote, let me point to this TOP SECRET - WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 age 39
10 11 ‘12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 20 TOP SECRET | 37 one .thing that has come up before in our Subcornmittee, Senator Mondale, and I don't know whether it has in yours or not, but because of the sanitation process, there may well be some — classified recommendations. I don't know that this area might fall into that category. So -- _ | Senator. Mandale. Well, that is a separate problem. Senator Huddleston. That's a separate problem. Mr. Bader. We might point out, Mr. Chairman, that part of the difficulty with that might be- -- ‘and I think the Committe ought to face this quarly -- if we take what wé have done here and put it. alljina classified version, the issue that the academic presidents are speaking to, that they must be aware of what the problem jis on their university, that they will not =} have that knowledge, and.obviously cannot act on it. Mr. Kirbow. No, I disagree with that, Mr. Chairman. What. do is you squarely put the requirement on the CIA that if it is ‘going to do this and you allow them to do it, then he must inform that president, and you make that part of the oversight. committee! s report, |too, that he must in fact: say that. “Senator vondale, ‘He has got to inform the president, he has got to inform the academic. Senator Schweiker. And he has to inform the student he is using in the recruitment. Senator Mondale. When he makes the recruit and puts him on an agent status, that he knows what is. going on. | TOP SECRET Docld:32423519 Page 40 . _ WARD & PAUL
38 TOP SECRET Senator Schweiker. So that the recruit knows what is going Senator Huddleston. So what is the Committee's pleasure jon the proposal by Senator Mondale and senator Schweiker and Senator Hart? Is there an objection? Does the Committee want a roll call? Senator Hart of Colorado. Report me in the negative. Mr. Kirbow. Sir, Senator Mathias, having read Senator 10 ||Goldwater's position in opposition, is that he would agree 11 |lon that. He is opposed to any prohibitions against. this, if he 12 |icould just be recorded. _ . r . ; Senator Goldwater will be recorded as’ 13 Senator Huddleston. 14 being opposed. Senator Hart -- maybe we ought to call the roll. _ 15 Mr. Madigan. May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that 16 Senator Baker is necessarily absent. It is my belief, having 17 ||\discussed this with him, that he would be opposed to this on 18 ||/the basis that he feels the student has the First Amendment 19 |iright if he is notified, but not necessarily the university 20 | president, but the student does have the right of privacy, 21 jjand he may, in light of Senator Mondale's proposal, he may -- 22 Senator Mondale. But a foreign student is not protected . 23 |lby the Constitution, is he? 24 Mr. Madigan. Well, I think the Senator's position is the foreign student. should have the right to make up his own mind. TOP SECRET ge 41 WARD & PAUL 25 Docld: 32423519
1 2 or 10 ‘ll 12: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld:324273519 P TOP SECRET 45 Senator Mondale, That's true, but I don't think that is a constitutional argument. 7 | Senator. Schweiker. Well, bee, since this is new, maybe we ought to postpone.the vote until the next meeting on it and give everybody a chance. | Senator Huddleston. I am inclined to believe that, that we ought to put on paper the recommendation, as it was finalized, and the vote could be held at the next meeting. | Mr. Aaron. We will':come back to you, then, with a redraft trying to incorporate all of these various thoughts. Senator ‘Huddleston. : We will also have to go back, I think, to this page 70. | | | Mr. diGenova. “and we'll have to go back to the first paragraph. | ‘Senator Huddleston. I am inclined to believe that we ought to see what the disposition of the Mondale suggestion is before we come back with -- to this paragraph and make a reply to it. | | Mr. Aaron. Right. Now, the recommendation which follows this set of options goes to a somewhat different issue, and that is the use of U.S. Government sponsored grantees and programs which are overt programs. This is 44 on page 78. Athletes, artists, any number of categories of people, sent abroad openly by the ' _ | United States for that cultural exchange purpose and then being TOP SECRET © ge 42 WARD & PAUL .
“lo 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 - 20 21 22 23 24 29 DoclId: 32423519 TOP SECRET 40 ||recruited by the CIA to conduct some operational activity. I might just speak to that issue as well. Mr. Bader. It should be stressed here that this recommen- dation we are talking about U.S. Government funded programs t || for cultural, educational and other purposes. The thrust of the argument here is that these programs are funded for various specific open purposes, where taxpayers’ cunds in fact go for a very specific purpose, and that it would.seem inconsistent with that publicly stated goal and publicly stated use of public funds to have these individuals be used for operational | purposes. , : | I might underline that the CIA prohibitions which came out of -- or the guidelines which came out of '67, which I read to you when we began this. discussion, has in its category B,. Fulbright Grantees. The! Agency has already accepted the prohi- bition.on Fulbright Grantees. This prohibition would extend that prohibition, which is limited to those individuals selected I|/by the Board of Foreign Scholarships to all individuals receivin U.S. Government grants. Senator Huddleston. Is there any comment on this? This ought to be fairly agreeable. | Mr. Kirbow. There is only one further comment that has come from Senator Tower on this subject. As written, it does not make clear whether of not former :CIA employees, officers or otherwise used in their regular purposes would be prohibited TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL age 43 .
TOP SECRET a 1 from getting one of these grants, would it in fact prohibit 2 ||\for a lifetime or just while he is getting the ‘money, or what . vt S ge ' 3 lfare the limitations on this? E 4) Mr. Bader. Yes. The question is one of operational use, 5 |inot a former employee. 6 Mr. Kirbow. Yes, it says operational use of cultural 7 (grantees. If he gets $500, which is a partial payment for what~|. 8 |lever he is going to ao, |he gets that as a grant-. from the 9. government. He goes overseas to France to study for three 10 ||/months. Once that period is over and that money has "been ‘11 ||spent" does it attach to him for life that he can never thereafter 12 be used? 13 Mr. Bader. No, certainly not. 14 Mr. Kirbow. How about a Fulbright Scholar? Does it 15 ||attach to them for life? 16 Mr. Bader. No, it. does not. 1? Mr. Kirbow. Just while they are under the grant. That “end 3 18 ||was the question. | begin 4 oo, . 19 a Senator Huddleston. . That could be written.into that. 20 || Mr. diGenova. While they are grantee during the term of an mc “Ol the granteeship. 29 . - Senator Huddleston. Is there any objection to 44? 23 il. There is none to that. All right, it will be adopted. 24 Mr. Aaron. : Now, the next issue, or the next recommenda—- 25 ||\tion, the next one, 45 deals with the question of the distribution TOP SECRET Docld:32423519 P ge 44 ‘ WARD & PAUL
LO ‘12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 £9 Docld: 32423519 | the United States. TOP SECRET 12 ||of books subsidized by the CIA within the United States. Again I might just turn this whole thing over to Mr. Bader. Senator Mondale. This doesn't deal with the flowback problem, does it? Mr. Bader. It does not, and it is maldrafted here, but the intent of this paragraph is to say that there will be no subsidy or distribution of any book, magazine or publication that the CIA is responsible for within the United STates unless that publication is attributed to the CIA. | Senator Huddleston. ‘any objection to that? Senator Mondale. what about the flowback problem? Would you simply go and have the book published in-- England or in Ottawa? : Senator Huddleston. Now, we cannot control the distributio here. The CIA can take part in its distribution. | Senator Mondale. put, subsidize any book, magazine, inside .Mr. Schwarz. There | surely can be reach paying the Canadian publisher enough money to permit his sending it across the line, and these words don't quite reach that. Mr. Bader. No, these words don't quite reach that. I am sure Senator Huddleston ¢an reach that. We have looked very |icarefully at this problem. of flowback, and let me give you an example of a current project of the CIA which is active. ‘They have given X hundreds of thousands of dollars to a TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL
10 12 12 13 14 15 16 17 18. 19 20 “R21 Re 23 24 25 Docld:32423519 Phge 46 . a WARD & PAUL Known in the United States. They then write a book on a TOP SECRET 3 certain individual in Britain with access to a British publishin firm. He has then gone ‘out. and acquired a stable of British | authors -- Bieloff is one of them, for example, very well particular subject such (asa tract againt, General DeGaulle's view of Europe. That is published in Britain, but subsidized by the. Central Intelligence. Agency, and that book tends to be picked up and distributed in the United STates through. the normal commercial process. . The agency says as long as it has a propaganda program overseas, that this kind of flowback. is - inevitable. — 1! | Senator Mondale. Well, then 45 becomes meaningless, doesn't it. . : | Mr. Aaron. What it would preclude is some: things that have happened in the past in which they actually subsidized and |. distributed books in the United States so that they could then. be picked up and distributed elsewhere. Senator Mondale. But it is the same thing. If they want to do something in the United States, they just go to Ottawa and cind a gifted author. | Mr. Bader. For all practical purposes, yes. “this would rule out the major publication programs of the pre-'67 period at MIT and Harvard, Praeger: etc.. 1 - . i Senator Mondale. Well, why don't we just deal with what we are talking about. We are talking about there is a loophole TOP SECRET
1 |lin here as big as all outdoors, isn't it.. 2 “Mr. Bader. That is absolutely right, Senator. . 3 Mr. Aaron. As long as they publish in English or Spanish. 4 Senator Mondale. All this says is you can't pay an 5 American publisher, you have to pay a foreign publisher. 6 || ° Mr. Bader. The original recommendation said -- y Senator Mondale. We don't want U.S. people being paid. 8 It's the opposite of the DISC program. a g |l- Mr. Kirbow. The record of the. Agency is that the informati n 10 published in these books,’ pointed at a French audience, may - ll fall back. 12 Mr. Schwarz. Any... . 13 _ Senator Mondale. Well, that's the same thing. 14 Mr. Kirbow. It may fall -back into the United States, but 15 |jthat is an incidental amount of the information, or the number 16 Of books that come in. 17 Senator Mondale. That is not what this says. . ag | Mr. Kirbow. _No, sir, it isn't, and the language could 49 be broadened to take whatever precautions you want them to 20 take against this being a deliberate act, but if you publish 21 in a certain language, it is going to be picked up worldwide. oo | | Senator Huddleston. We tried several approaches, one, (9% not permitting them to participate in any kind of publication 04 jin the English language.. 25 |: ' Senator Mondale. That doesn't mean anything. You can TOP SECRET | WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 ge 47
45 TOP SECRET 1 translate it. 2 Senator Huddleston. This goes to the distribution. It might 3 |}be that we can tie it down a little more. The example you 4 || gave of subsidizing a Canadian company would certainly come unde 5 |ia subsidy for the distribution if the purpose of that was to 6 || prepare a book which would be distributed in the United States; 7 ||it would be in violation of this wording right here, in my. 8 || Judgment. 9 Mr. Schwarz. Suppose you said something like "and shall 10 || not provide any funds to a foreign publisher in excess of the 11 |} amount needed for distribution, limited to the foreign - 12 |) country. 13 Mr. Kirbow: It is meaningless . 14 | Mr. Schwarz. Well, it is at least something more than 15 || this. | | 7 16 “Mr. Kirbow. It doesn't do anything to keep it from coming 17 || back: into the United STates. Why have additional language. 18 | Mr. Aaron. I think you could conceivably put some 19 || Oratory language in there, which, you know, take care of 20 every conceivable or every possible safeguard to attempt to 2} preclude its distribution in the United States. I don't know 22 what in fact one would do, but I don't think the funds would 53 do it. I mean, once the book has been subsidized, once the 24 ||writer has been subsidized, then it is a question of the 25 || number of copies and the amount of books, and if there is a - TOP SECRET . WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 Page 46 ;
10 11 12 13 15 “16 1? 18 19 20 21 Re 24 25 Docld: 32423519 be included in 45. TOP SECRET 58 Mr. Schwarz. But isn' 't Senator Schweiker’ 3 point a good addition to 45, as you are going to rewrite it, that the CIA would ‘be prohibited from asking somebody covertly to: “put an article in the op ed page of the New York Times. Mr. Aaron. Well, I think 45 does say "unless attributed to the CIA.". Senator Mondale. A book | or ¢ magazine article or publicatio Senator Schwéiker..- Well, when they told us. here that their policy was that they identify as the Agency, I would like to have that included. Senator Mondale. Well, put "article" in 45. Mr. Schwarz. And also, Dave, what i regard as a subsidy, and if the CIA asks Mr, X to put an article in the New York Times that is in effect a CIA article, you would want to reach that. Mr. Aaron. Well, I think that we do, or. we will make sure that we do. Mr. diGenova.- You would also want to reach a covert. letter to the editor which is planted, or maybe we should -put in "any other written matter." Mr. Madigan. You've eliminated all of Evans and Novak's pieces. | Senator..Huddleston. Well, I think those points ought to Senator Mondale. All right. I move 46 and 47. TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL age 61