28 1 Mr. Blacxmer. Are you familiar with an individual by the 2 name of Carlos Marcell@? en . 3 Mr. Espinosa. No. Nick 4 Mr. Blackmer. QemGem Popick? 5 Mr. Espinosa. No. Pe, Garlseo® a or 8 Mr. Blackmer. Peter Gaurasco? ms 7 Mr. Espinosa. No. 8 Mr. Blackmer. After you arrived at Lake. Pontehartrain, aa 9 day or so later, I assume Carlos Hernandez ‘came: and met you 10 and I assume you went over the plan of the operation. 17 Mr. Espinosa. Yes. : | 12 Mr. Blackmer. “Could you tell us at. what: point “you: 13, decided against ‘going on the operation? oh QO ag Mr. Espinosa. Well, somehow the father” “of Fred! ‘citi, wno 15 waS going to arm the plane, died and subsequently we had. to 16 restructure and the guy had to go to Miami and “shortly, after “17 the burial or something we found out he had been picked up by 18 the FBI, so we had- to call the operation off. 19 Mr. Blackmer. And at ‘any time did you see the planes? 20 Mr. Espinosa. No. ; 21 Mr. Blackmer. After the operation was. cancelled, where. 22 did you go? (23 Mr. Espinosa. I came to New York. 24 Mr. Blackmer. Did you contact McLaney? 2B. Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I did. ALDERSON. REPORTING COMPANY, LINC, MW 53080 Docla: 32248213 Page 30) 7th STREET; S.W. REPORTERS: BUILDING, WASHINGTON; .C. 20028 (202) 554-2948
18 719 23 OF - Stopped by the FEIp. dic you contact Mike sicLaney? ; Investigationp had in essence infiltrated. the ‘operation? 29 Mr. Blackmér. And did you explain to him that ‘the operation had been cancelled? Mr. Espinosa. Yes, for the time dDeing. Mr. Blackmer. What was his reaction? Mr. Espinosa. I explained it to him and i thougtit,ne was reasonable. a _ od Ot Mr. Blackmer. Homisbest Arver the June 15 raid Was | Mr. Espinosa, Of course, ‘Mr. Blackmer. what was his reaction to thet? Mr. Espinosa. He was-always a good gambler “and. he ‘took, things very philosophically. oo Mr. Blackmer. ‘Was he upsét that the Federal. Bureau Sof 0 ore net nga Mr, Espinosa, No. Mr. Blackmer. Was he aware that Someone in “the operation had leaked the information-to the FBI? | Mr. Espinosa. Yes, we told him. Mr. Blackmer,. What was his reaction to that? Mr. Espinosa. We told him we wanted to. kill ‘the’ guy ‘but he said, "NO, you shouldn't do that, Mr. Blackmer. After your trip te New York. and your. contact with Mike MecLaney, did you aver again: propose, a. Similar operation? Mr. Espinosa. No. “ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. NC, “HW 53080 Docld:32248213 © Pageagh3in street. Sw. REPORTERS Alin nine iwaciimArae 2k wee:
33 24 , Sure, MaAnve] Mr. Blackmer. why was that? Mr. Espinosa. well, you get tired of failure, on Mr. Blackmer. well, it was twice, at hee teewe.- Mr. Espinosa, It is only twice but up “to five or. sik years doing the same thing. . re Mr. Blackmer. In 1962, there was a raid on a hotel ins 2 DRE. Havana, a Shelling of a hotel in Havana by members: Fi He Mr. Espinosa. It was 1966. . Mr. Blackmer. No, 1962, by members of the DRE, which was an anti-Castro exile organization at the time. Mr. Espinosa. Yes. — Mr. Blackmer. Were you familiar with that: Faldy ated YO C.O Weert da nn. D.O,ULt a ctcasents ? Mr. Espinosa. No. ae Mr. Blackmer. Did you know that Carlos Hérnandez was on. that raid? Mr. Espinosa. I have heard that he was but I wasntt Mr. Blackmer. Did you know &manu@l. Salvat? Mr. Espinosa. I can't recall. Mr. Blackmer. Also on that raid was an ‘individual, named. Udalia Mayar? Did you ever hear of that individuar? Mr. Espinosa. I think SO, yes. Mr. Blackmer. And do you recall what you have heard. | ALDERSON. REPORTING COMPANY, INC, “MW'53080- Docid:32248213 | Bages093th STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS-BUILDING, WASHINGTON. D.C. Soave leno acai
1 about that individual? 2 Mr. Espinosa. No, 3 Mr. Blackmer. Were yOu aware at any time of any. 4 organized. crime efforts £O sponsor similar. raids: similar. tb 5 the one that you were on? : 6 Mr. Espinosa. No. 7 Mr. Blackmer. When you were living in Havana and 8 frequently in the: Hotel: Nacional, did you ever know ish 9 individual named Norman Rothman? 40 : Mr. Espinosa. Yes, 1 ‘Mr. Blackmer. What was the nature of your relationship 12, with him? @ - - 13 Mr. Espinosa. [I just Saw him a couple of times; that. is ag alt, OS UA os 15 Mr. Blackmer. Did you not in fact know his.«song 4 17 Mr. Espinosa. Yes. 18 = Mr. Blackmer. And did you know his son Ein Havana or 29 Mr. Espinosa. I met him in Miami. ; . 3 Mr. Blackmer. Was there a particular hotel or bar that . 22 you used to meet? . 23 Mr. Espinosa. Yes, there was a bar in a hotel in Miami OO a 24 Beach. He used to have this bar, and [I think We called him, 25 "Cappy," his nick-name, and we used to efe) quite often to his ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, “INC, HW°53080 DocTa: 32248213. Page fans Stneet < wi REONA TENE Ollir Aim Gare ee atin Bo!
10 11 12 19 21 20, bar. Mr. Blackmer. And was the elder Rothman there on) occasion? oe Mr. Espinosa. laybe a couple of times, yes. Mr. Blackmer. But you had no specific association with the elder Rothman? - Mr. Espinosa. No, Mr. Blackmer. And at no time did Norman Rothman. have need of your services as far as implementing any clandestine activities? | Mr, Espinosa. No. Mr. Blackmer. So, it was just Mike McLaney, Mr. Espinosa. Yes, Mr. Blackmer. Did you know an individual namedFraak Mr. Espinosa. JI dontt tnink so. Mr. Blackmer. In Havana once again, did- you fave” any ‘contact with the American Emodassy with respect ‘to. your’. underground activities? ° Mr. Espinosa. - No.- | Mr. Blackmer. Did you know any individuals, in: n-your: group who had connections with the American. Embassy? Mr. Espinosa. No. Mr. Blackmer. Did you know whether or not. your, ‘friend, Rolando Cubela, had any contact with the American® Embassy?  ALDERSON. REPORTING COMPANY, INC,:, MW 53080 . DocTa: 32248213 ‘ -Pages0i 3th STREET, S.W.- REPORTERS. BUILDING, WASHINGTON ir “banda iBabt nos omen
20 < 23 24 25 33 Mr. Espinosa. No. Mr. Blackmer. Did you.have any contact with the: central Intelligence Agency in Havana? | | Mr. Espinosa. Not many, but from a good friend’-of mine, yes. aa : - Mr. Blackmer., Who was that? Mr. Espinosa. Carlos Tepedino. I don't know for “sure he was an agent. Mr. Blackmer. _Tepedino was a friend of . ‘Cubela, cand he had contact with the. CIa? Mr. Espinosa. I eannot tell you for sure ag he had contact with the CIA but this is what we all: believed at. “the time, | Mr. Blackmer. Is there any individual that you nay have | Suspected that he had contact with? | 7 Mr. Espinosa. No. Mr. Blackmer. Have you heard of an individual named David Phillips? | Mr. Espinosa. No. Mr. Blackmer. Did you ever see Frank Sturgis at any. of the gambling casinos in Havana? — “ 7 | ! Mr, Espinosa. No. Mr. Blackmer. Were you aware of any of Frank’ ‘Sturgis! activities with Fidel Castro prior to Castro" Ss: takes over? Mr. Espinosa. No. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, —— 53080 Docld: 32248213 - Pagexasn STREET, Siw: "REPORTERS BUILDING. ‘WASHINGTON “Rh! Sana’ ranay ee book ee
oO HW 53080 _ 19 _ 2i 23 © 24 25 Mr. Blackmer. Do you know an individual named Gerald Patrick Hemming? | Mr. Espinosa. I think T. met him onee or twice. vin: Mami. Mr. Blackmer. And did you nave any dealings © with. Hemming? ‘Mr. Espinosa. Nothing at all. | Mr. Blackmer. What did you Know about Hemming? Mr. Espinosa. Nothing. What we thought we. knew about him is that he was always mixing with the Cubans: that were. trying to do something but the word was he. was. working for the -FBI or CIA or somebody, and no one ever. took hin very. . seriously about anything or confided in him. for. vanytbing. Mr. Blackmer. Where were you on November. 22, 19632, Mr. Espinosa. That was the assassination? Mr. Blackmer. Yes. Mr. Espinosa. In New York. Mr. Blackmer. when you learned of the. assassination--and I assume you saw newspaper articles and television coverage of the assassination--did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald as. having Seen him before? | - . Mr. Espinosa. No. Mr. Blackmer. Had you heard anything after. ‘the assassination from any of your friends in the cuban exile: community that may have implicated any one of). ‘the. ‘eld ‘cuban exiles in the assassination? ol _ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, Nc, he Docid: 32248213 Page sth STREET, Ss. we REPORTERS. BUILDING. WASHINGTON A RS ARTA AAA CEA an ae
oO. ‘HW 53080 12 430 14 24 25 Mr. Espinosa, No, never, Mr. Blackmer., After tne Bay of Pigs, what. wes. the: reaction to him of the Cuban exiles that you: knew? ot ‘am “sure they were very ¢isappointed and were many of them: violently: angry against Kennedy. himself ‘or the U.S, Government? Mr. Espinosa. Not. really against him, against. the. CEA mainly or against: the government and not against Kennedy. Mr, Blackmer., Woat was their general Teeling as ‘the _ Cause of the failure of ‘the Bay of Pigs? Mr. Espinosa. The CIA, Mr. Blackmer. How do you mean? Mr. Espinosa, well, Should I go into this a ‘Littre? Mr. Blackmer, Yes, [I think So. . Mr. Espinosa, when the question was risen: moby the pilots, - in Guatemala, if you are-> going to go to the Bay, BO En: with a. “Be25 or B-~26, B-26, let us say, is a tactical bomber. ‘Plane and. now this kind of plane, if I remember, it has eight -50-caliber machine. guns.in the nose and two in the tail. and Sie) on. And in order for this Plane to fly: from ‘Guatemala to cuba and be able to have a feeder for 30 minutes operation’ “in. ‘the area and bomb or machine gun for 30 minutes and. come: “back to Guatemala, all of this ammunition and all of the: machine, ‘guns have to be taken from the plane and put additional gasoline tanks in. . _ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. We; Docla: 32248213. .Page,4a, eTREeY e Ar , DERAR TAA Aine
e Hw 53080 20 | 23 called off, which tert Castro with about twonne 36 So, the question was aroused--and now do you say in English--it was raised of what happens when we get there Without any fighter protection and the planes are ‘going to. ‘be coe in the air and they are going to be knocked down? a So, the answer to tnhat-was- that there were. going. to be two. ‘Or three bombing. raids and one in San Antonio Bay” in. Havana and another one in another place and another one. in Valdo Beach at the airport and just destroy it and make “it a Pretentious strike and destroy Castro's air force _ on the ground, So, everybody was very content with this “explanation -and the strike took over and Roa, who was a cuban ambassador to the United Nations, made ‘a big fuss at the time. “804 there. was.a-big fuss in the united Nations and they. came. “UP. with the pictures of the planes, and. then it was found that this, story — that the air force had been bombed by Cuban pilots belonging to Fidel Castro's army who had defected, it was-a lie. because the models of the Cuban. planes were a different model, like ~you have a DC-9B or DC=9C or -is that right2\ So, wnen Stevenson, who was ambassador to the. united: Nations--when he went to kennedy and the third strike was Me—Espitrece. or three planes were Lert: as a consequence Z of the Stevenson convincing the president at a. ‘ine to. call of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. DoclId: 32248213 - Pages089tn STREET, 'S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON: 0.C. 20004 IondvRdu72ae
10 42. 14 15 20 94 a) 25 HW 53080. DocId: 32248213. Page .50_ ‘thought it was as usual, the usual CIA serewed 37 the third raid, so. consequently we ,ost all of the planes. Mr. Blackmer. Is that one of the Specific reasons wey the invasion failed? Se . Mr. Espinosa. Yes, I would think so. Mr. Blackmer. Because Castro's air force was ablé to annihilate the bombers and also the supply ships?) Mr. Espinosa. As long as, we had a boat we could: really take and maintain a piece of land over there until the: ‘forces. -of the Organization of American States would. come in, and as. I7 of oo. understood oy friends of mine who wes there, all of the. shipa, the battle ships ‘were right there and the. carrier and the whole thing. ‘So, I guess the whole. thing was that somehow. people - “up: ‘thingy. and they thought it was Stevenson who really. precipitate te ‘the . whole thing. But nobody--maybe because they were. sympathetic, out nobody bothered about blaming Kennedy for it. Mr. Blackmer. So, it was your feeling at the time that the CIA was noted for inef ficient: operationsperd in your training, did you feel like you were given Gmadequate and: ie. 7 re “sufficient trainingsané-did-yousteoh tikenthate Mr. Espinosa. As I said to you the other day 5. I did, “and 300 guys did, but not the whole force that invaded cuba, "And - - then this might not have been a CIA decision and: might have. been a decision saying you have to get ‘the guys. over there, and ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 07 AS Aner eee Am! RRA RRR Rie mt a me em
HW 53080. 20° 23 24 . Situation ae ‘fall on their shoulderse.¢ 25 38 it is now or never: So, what I am saying is, as I said to you the other’ cay, it is tne fault of the Cubans. If we had gotten in. there. in the beginning and so on and SO.on. : | Mr. Blackmer. - Did. many. Cubans understand this tO (be: thes, he en Mr. Espinosa. they * are “ald heroes, even if they. never. Saw a gun in their lives. Mey are all neroes and So. ‘you have to blame things on other: people and not.on yourselves. ‘and: ‘the main reason why we. failed should fall upon: our. shoulders to begin with. Mr. Blackmer. It is: your: vestimony.. then that your participated in an infiltration before the Bay. of. Pigs. and. after the Bay of Pigs you were on three or four more infiltrations into Cuda? Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Blackmer. And as I recall, what we are trying to do today is get on the record all of the things we. had discussed in ours interview with out ant yew ventana interview-younstated=ers TS os are Mr. Espinosa. Let me tell you something. ‘There. was, sa file somewhere with the days and the people that. went into: this infiltration and you didn't do that because L have seen. 4 ‘many, many years ago, ALDERSON REPORTING ‘COMPANY, INC; Docla:32248213 | BagesB hin STREET, S: WwW: REPORTERS. BIT DING Wr QiaatAR on A navn s aac be
39° @) Do, 1 Mr. Blackmer. Where exactly did you .sée this” ‘tiled. 20 Mr. Espinosa, t saw it. and I was going With ‘somedoay oho 3 was a civil servant and he- “showed it to me as a favor but. . 4 know there is. a file. 5 . Mr. Blackmer. And this. file you saw, where ei 6 Miami? | — 7 Mr. Espinosa. No, I didn't. see it in Miami. 8 Mr. Blackmer, Would you like to tell us where you saw 9 it? | 10 | Mr. Espinosa. No. 11 Mr. Blackmer. “And to -your knowledge it details: each one 12 -0f the operations that you personally were involved in? 4B Mr. Espinosa. Yes, and the persons involved and: “friends ag of mine and people, involved in the other operations: “eitnoms” 15 from the CIA. ‘and the whole thing. 16 | Mr. Blackmer. Is it your. feeling that, as you expressed a re the other day, that these Subsequent operations were merely aus _ 4g done by the. CIA just to keep control or taps on some. ‘of the 49 CHines? » Cudeny ? EE on op Mr. Espinosa. Either that or to get wee es 21 or the other. — | a | ioe 59 Mr. Blackmer. And you felt that the operations: then= 23 Selves were meaningless? Perce 94 Mr. Espinosa. Not only that; you we Hepsi the 25 army, is that right? And you KnoW, you can understand that. on ALDERSON AEPORTING COMPANY, INC te TE, Ww ‘53080. Doeld: 32248213 Pages Brn STREET. S.W. REPORTERS RII RING \aracuinietnn _— Anan nae cee oe
) 1 Anyway, if you have a box Of 30 caliber machine gun | | 2 ammunition, you know exactly, you Know when. you open the “3 ammunition box you are going to find the required | annusiition 4 and when you start going on the operation and you open: up. a. 30, 5 caliber munitions box and you start finding 45 caliber : 6 ammunition, you start wondering because these things céne-Itke 7 that. | 8 After a few years they take them away because it is like 9 a preseription in a pharmacy and they deliver then to you from 19° an army. camp or from. an army depot or something’, and: what it 44 Says outside, believe me, you will find snide, 12 If you do not find inside what is outside, if: you. do not O 43. Find it, you wonder who changed it and why Was’ ‘it, charged? 14_ Mr. Blackmer. © How large were the groups. that’ you Pi ~'45 infiltrated with? “46 Mr. Espinosa. Small groups, three or four. 17 Mr. Blackmer. And. were you parachuted in or were you — “4g Drougnt arian by sea? - oe as ee ~ 9 Mr. Espinosa. We were always taken in by. sea. ‘The “name. 20 of that Frank J mentioned before it Frank Bernardino. | ‘ “21 Mr. Blackmer. This was an individual you knew? 22 Mr. Espinosa. He was a good friend of Artime. 33 | Mr. Blackmer. And Cubela? - | HE by Mr. Espinosa. No. te sraeerers Ihave rorEOt ven ~uhere this soars - oS : . . ALDERSON REFORTING COMPANY; INC, Ww 53080 “Docld: 32248213 Page, 93, STREET < AK QeONDTEnA Ain Ria Loe aoe :
HW 53080 “11 seen again. Had ‘you heard during the time that—th 42 Russian technicians?_ 21 long before that time, long before 1963, there was. “Alphonzg, ‘Docld:32248213 Page 54 1 “ment t onede 2 Mr. ESDIN0Sa——En--one~of ere rare sy — 3 Mir Brackmere—-One~ Of “ther aids youmweres MER ee 4 Wr Espinosa, —You-askedne—whe—wasinith-meind—E 5 mentioned s—few-others anil —cowhdn-t-nemembeinn, 6 Mr. Blackmer, In - February of 1963: there was a- story 7 Circulated that certain Russian technicians: “were hiding in the 8 hills in Cuba and that they wanted to derectenat As a result 9 of this a man by the - name of Eddie Bayo or: ‘Edllardo” Perez with 10 10 other men were infiltrated into cobanand Tey were | never us. enleat a Ahent an be a der ogg Mr. Espinosa. It is the first time that Ivheard of “it' at. 44 the time, yes. 15 Mr. Blackmer. Tnat the Russians were in’ Cuba, but. hag 16 you heard any of them were hiding and ready to defect? 17 Mr. Espinosa. No. 4g Mr. Blackmer. what. Ahad you heard about the Russians, - 4g technicians at the time? | 20 Mr. Espinosa. Well, what I heard at the time was that 7 22 Carol and there was Siva--the last name and I cannot” remember. * 99 the first name, and they were in a CIA mission in Cuba’ and D4 they reported to the CIA or at least they said they were 25 technicians or they were putting things together and they __- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC;.
rs) 1 didn't know exactly what it was, so they were not briefed for 2 tnet particular mission and $0 I have heard. 3 Mr. Blackmer. Was this before 1942? 4 Mr. Espinosa. Before 1962, yes. | 5 Mr. Blackmer. Was it before. the Bay of Pigs? 6 Mr. Espinosa. Before the Bay of Pigs. 7 2. Mr. Blackmer,. But you had not hea rd of ne i 36 nee 8 Mr. Espinosa. The > first time I. heard ‘about this Story 9 about the Russians in the hills is now. - A | hao. ose aya 10 Mr, Blackmer. And you were aware of» General. Bro  coseayay 11 the general who trained Castro? 12_ Mr. Espinosa, ; , 13 Mr. Blackmer. OO 14 Mr. Espinosa. 45 Mr. Blackmer. 16 Mr. Espinosa. 47 Mr. Blackmer. Sag had? “49° Mr. Espinosa. 29 Mr. Blackmer. ay Perez? 22 Mr. Espinosa. og ; Mr. Blackmer, fo Yes, I have heard about. ‘the. old man, ny.yes. Did you personally know nie No. oy Did you ever see him? No. Were you aware of any children he way have No. And you do not know Eddie Bayo. on No. ATT Ptset, I think John Hornbeck soulg- “24 like to ask a few questions, especially about: cubela and your: 8 25 relationship there 2d ALDERSON REPORTING. COMPANY, ING:: Hw 53080 Docld:32248213 Pagexsath STREET, 'S.W, REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON: 0:C. 20004 960) Bhavan
O HW 53080° 3 20 A 24 of yours? 25 Docld: 32248213 : Page 56 ans Mr. Hornbeck, Can you State the first time: that “you. met Rolando Cubela and what your relationship was with: him in Cuba? | Mr. Espinosa. I must have met Rolando when. I was” about ‘12 or 13 years old because he used to gO, or we used to have’ ae very good protestant school in the city in which I was, born. And a lot of people from all over Cuba used to go ‘there to get an education. He was going to this ‘school and [ met: him: at. “that hme, and I was 12 or 13 and he must have been 15 or. 16: years old at that time. Pe Mr. Hornbeck. Were you friendly with any’ of his. relatives and was he friendly with any of your. relatives? Mr. Espinosa. I was friendly with his father anid” with his. mother and mainly with his brother, and his father, I Saw ‘~him and he was always lost somewhere and I Was very friendly with his mother and with his sister, Cari. Mr. Hornbeck. After this first schooling with: | Rolando, did you continue to Stay in contact with him? | Mr. Espinosa. Yes, mainly because he was a very good. >05e- nh Pe UE friend of Hesea Antonio Echeverria. ee eee Mr. Hornbeck. And I take it Echeverria was-a good. friend. Mr. Espinosa. Yes, we used to live about 20 minutes’ from ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY; INC,’
20 23 24 "25 WW 53080 DocId: 32248213 ‘Page 57 doctor -and he was studying to be a doctor. 44 each other. . Mr. Hornbeck. Did the three of you attend. any sdhools of higher education? eee Mr. Espinosa. We. all went ‘to the University of. Havana, Mr. Hornbeck. Were all three of you there at - : approximately the same time? Mr, Espinosa. Yes, they were there before [I was there and by the time I got there they were big shots already. Mr, Hornbeck, “what was Cubela's course of study at: the University and what political activities at the. University was whe engaged in? Mr. Espinosa. It is funny, Rolando started to: be a non Mr. Hornbeck. You are Speaking of Sanaa BEES Mr. Espinosa. Yes, and I do not know whether che graduated or not and his political activities were. very, very limited in the sense that he would sort of follow the- activities of Antonio mainly. Mr. Hornbeck. And was this their pattern at. the. University when you arrived, that Echeverria was-a. real  aeadei and Cubela was associated with him? a | Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. What year did you first enter the. University? Mr. Espinosa. 1954, -ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING,
45 1 Mr. Hornbeck. And was the University a strongly: 2 political Kind of institution? 3 Mr. Espinosa. Yes, very much, 4 Mr. Hornbeck. And. you graduated from the university, 5 Mr. Espinosa. No, I Was there one year and it was, that 6 we had a lot of fights with the police and shoot-outs, arid the 7 like. 8 Mr. Hornbeck, What was the main contention between. the 23 24 225 . . an . L _ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, inc, . ‘HW 53080 Doold: 32246213. ‘Page, 58, einer ota nehanecnn cena
tg —. * 20 23 Oo HG Students and the police regime at that time? Mr. Espinosa. Dicta torshi ip, democracy and ‘the trouble we were having with a dictator you don't like and “the Cubans have Castro now. | | a Mr. Hornbeck. Who was the dictator at that time? Mr. Espinosa. Ratista. Mr. Hornbeck. And who were the students Supporting if there was anyone candidate? Mr. Espinosa. What is ‘that? Mr. Hornbeck. Who did the students support or was it just against Batista? . | | Mr. Espinosa. Mainly. the last president, rio. “There was a lot of good nature and idealogical politicking: in, the University, and there was a lot of politicking done by other” guys who had been in the University for a long time ‘and’ the kind of Students who never. graduated, professional students, and I think Prio was to butter them up and keep them flaming, and there were different sections. | But in general, everybody liked Prio and. there. was a democratic government and here came Castro and he’ Screwed aes up. “hs . Mr. Hornbeck. When you left the University, were, Cubela and Echeverria still at the University? | a | Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. Did there come a time when you joined them ALDERSON REPORTING, COMPANY, INC, NW 53080 Docld:32248213° pagexB9ik STREET, S.W.. REPORTERS BUN DING WASWINIGTAN Ron landde Inga ane eee”
10 1 16 49 20° 23 25 (53080 Docld: 32248213 ‘Page .60 ~ 7 21 | yg in any anti-Castro activity or anti- Batista’ ‘activities? - Mr. Espinosa. I will explain to you. ‘TL was” in the. | University for one year and q didn't study, and ° all, We. did- ‘the’ whole time was just trying to get something going. against Batista. There were so many lashes with the police’ ang people shot and this and that. And my father took me out and sent me to LSU. I stayed there one year and then I became of age, 18, ‘and my. grand- father died, and so I decided to quit. and. go, on an texe oven the ranch that my grandfather had left me: at. the time. | So, I went over there and minding my own: ‘business. and 7 working and not messing in politics and I used ‘to. spend three or four weeks over there or 4OQ days and then. Zo. to: ‘Havana for . e, -a weekend or three. or four days. And then: one: ‘time: 1. went: to- Havana and Rolando called me and ne had just--or: “Antonio” “had just been to Mexico to see: Castro and they had a meeting in Mexico. So, he said,’ "We are going to have a meeting: with: about Sose Ap poned 40 or 12 guys in the University and BResarnra told: me’ to. call you.” Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tellus approximately what .yéar Rte oy Bi 2 Mr. Espinosa. WE This was the day. before: colonel Blanco was shot, the day before he was shot. Mr. Hornbeck. Can you identify what position’ he, eld? : _ALDERSON: REPORTING ‘COMPANY, INC,’ vada aende® ean BEDNATERG AIT AING WASHINGTON. 0.C. 26024 (202) 554-2345
1 Mr. Espinosa. who is that? 2 Mr. Hornbecx. . Blanco. 3 Mr. Espinosa. He was head of military intelligence.» 4 Mr. Hornbeck: Under the Batista regime? oa 5 Mr. Espinosa. Yes. 6 Mr. Hornbeck.- And that day, wnat --- 7 Mr. Espinosa. That day Rolando called.me and he said, g "We are going to meet at the square in the University Bt-4:10 Dose Gwtome g o'clock, and Heseana told me ‘to call you.’ And so I got. over 10 there and we were about 10 or 12 guys, and Castro. was going to Y come and he sent me ‘regards from the guy who was... killed F and we 42 had to start really cracking and getting things done. over. 13 ‘there, like shooting the big guys. or chief. OF police: and. oe “44 and military intelligence and all of that. ee 45 _ So, we made three groups of four people. each, “3 and ee ‘can 46 remember who was there in case you want the names but, r don't - 7 think it is of interest to you because most. of. them: are dead, 18 and maybe except for Rolando. 9 Mr. Hornbeck. If you can remember the groups and what 20 targets those particular groups-had. OE eae 21 Mr. Espinosa. The people who were there were Rolando, — 22 Antonio, Machin and Machado. 93 Mr. Hornbeck. Was that his first name?. e oa 24 Mr. Espinosa. No, it was his last name and I-can't’~ 95 remember his first name. There was Roderiguale—. coe Rod ea cae ; _ALDERSON, REPORTING COMPANY, INC, : TET te eee HW 53080- ‘Doctd: 32248213 © Page 6X0 7ih STREET: 5.W.. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D. ¢, 20024 (202) 564. 2345
O HW 53080, | 24 O28. Docld: 21 4g Mr. Hornbeck. What was the first name? Mr. Espinosa. Nutosa. There was Joe Westbrook and. there Wés--I cannot remember. his name now and he is dead anyway, and all of the people that were there. Pe Mr. Hornbeck. So, did the groups divide into these four .areas with specific targets in mind? Mr. Espinosa. Yes, one group was going to take: care. Of. Usalace who was chief of police and we were the youngest. ones and we got the easiest one, who was Blanco Irco, and then the others were together going to take care of Taberinalla. Mr. Hornbeck. What position did he hold? - Mr. Espinosa. The army chief. Mr. Hornbeck. Were any of these groups successful in carrying out their targets? . Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. Of the groups, which ones were successful? Mr. Espinosa. Our group; we were the one who got lucky first. Mr. Hornbeck. What was to be your particular, role-in. the assassination of Blanco [Ireo? Mr. Espinosa. Just to stay in the car ‘and. worked, with a gun over there to see if someone was coming. Mr. Hornbeck. Can you describe just briefly what.~ ‘occurred the day ne was killed? Mr. Espinosa. Rolando called me and I was.not ‘at home. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 32248213 Page: 6Ro Ith. STREET: ‘S.W.. “REPORTERS: BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D:c. “2od26 (202) 564: 3345-
"23 I was at my girlfriend's, and it was a Saturday, and he called me over tnmere and he wanted to pick me up and we took myvcar and we picked up two guys and a hand grenade, oe Mr. Hornbeck. Rifles or pistols? Mr. Espinosa. Two pistols, one 45 and one a Spanish’ Start, and then we went to pick up Carbo, Pedro Carbo=-that. is the last name and we gave each other a rendezvous at 10:00 o'clock. I left Rolando at his home and I went home and I took a nap and I took a shower and I went there at 10:00 - o'clock and they were not there. So, I went to three or four different - places. where we. ‘were supposed to be because the guy was supposed, to be. there, and I thought maybe I was late or they were early. iE ‘thought it: was my fault and I couldn't find him and about: half past 12 or 10:00 o'clock, I said, "Well, nothing happened," and I don't know what happened and I went to sleep. The next - morning I just heard on the radio that they got the guy. Mr. Hornbeck. . After that particular event, whatikind of “activities against the Batista regime did you engage’ “in: with Rolando and Echeverria? “Mr. Espinosa. Let me try to synchronize ‘because then I nad to leave the country. a _ _ : Mr. Hornbeck. He was immediately suspected? ee Mr. Espinosa. He was not immediately suspected. at. the time we were so young and I don't think they. would’ suspect-us _ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, wc,” HW, 53080 ‘DocTa: 32248213 Page. 607th STREET, S'W. _ REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, 0:C. 20024 “(202% 584. 2345°
51 1 and they were thinking of old gangsters, : anc some of. nis, 2 professional students that were there. Actually, I think that. 3 they got Cubela but anyway at” that time he was out of the 4 country. 5 Mr. Hornbeck. Do you know where he went? 6 ‘Mr. Espinosa. He went to Miami. I think for a long tine 7d didn't see him and. the. other people were trying to carry on 8 with their targets, and - L wasn't in contact with Antonio for at | .. 9 about a year. © Then; he called me one day and we had a meeting 10 and we were talking about making an assault on. ‘the Presi- “it dential Palace and that is the last time that: ia Saw. whim. 2. Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately what. was the. plan. date of the: assault.on the palace? ang Mr. Espinosa. I. think he-got a letter--1 am-sures-from - 5 Castro that he showed to all of us who were there at that. meeting that day, and the letter was saying, "Well, after 120 ) days or 90 days or 200 days that I have been in the Sierra g Mastros,.in the hilis » you haven't done anything yet." ~It was a kind of a. letter that was really. trying. to: make htt feel like a shit, and I know this was a much. ‘more 21 complicated thing and it was only going ‘to. be. ‘the: “students who oy were ¢ going to do it. wee ag? . Then, in came people from other organizations, and . pelatives in the other organizations, the far right, ‘anid exes politicians like Sandro and people like that, and I ‘saw him i 7 we oe ps : _ 4 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, : HW, 53080. ‘Docla: "39248213. Page. 60 7th STREET, Ss. W.. “REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D: C. 20024 (202) S64- 2345 |
10: oa 2 12 54g 15 16. “V7 18 20 210 95 O . WW-53080 ‘Docld: 32248213, that day and he said, "dt will be in touch wita you,™ and. h- never got in touch with me. Mr. Hornbeck. to Miami? Mr. Espinosa. Mr. Hornbeck. was? Mr. Espinosa. Mr. Hornbeck. Mr. Espinosa. Mr. Hornbeck, first part of 1959, Mr. Espinosa. the time in Havana, Did there come a time when Cubela. returned Yes. Can you tell us approximately when that It must have been the end of 1957. And from the period? It was the middle of '57, three or four months after that time of the Presidential Palace. a From the period of mid... 157 through the: what was your association with: cubela?_ You see, everybody was so burned? up ‘all of everybody had to go to the hills. and I had a very good relationship with the son of the actual president of the senate in Cuba at the time, and he was a very good friend of mine. Mr. Hornbeck. Mr. Espinosa. . Mr. Hornbeck. Mr. Espinosa. Who was that? ew Alfred Gonzaiss. Would you tell us about the old man first? The old man was Anselmo” ALLiegro: and he was president of the Senate at the time, and he was one of the: big shots. I met his step-son when I was in Loutsianna State and we were close friends. -, ALDERSON REPORTING: COWPANY, INC, Page “ 6Rig: Ith STREET; SW. "REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C: 30024: (202) 864-2348 oo
dog. fols- edm:: ends. OQ CO 5 | “20° ° 21 23 24 25 53) So, I was somebody who could be in Havana all of the time and more or less protected and I could have the liberty to gc places and meet people and pass messages and go back to. ‘the | hills and so on without much risx of anything happening | to. me. Mr. Hornbeck. So, where was Rolando Cubela during’ this period then up until the time when Eatista left the first of January? Mr. Espinosa. He was in the hills all of the time. Mr. Hornodeck. What was nis group and what relation did they have with tne.Castro group? Mr. Espinosa. They had no relation at all. “ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, NC: ) aw ‘3080 Docla: 32248213. Page: 660 7th STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILOING, WASHINGTON, .¢. 20024 (202) 564- 12345:
HW 53080- 10 1 12 13 4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 “24 25 Mr. Hornceck. They were fighting independently? Mr spinosa . St 5 dep encently, and trying to get to Havana before Castro did, and so you have an idea what the realities were at the time, when Castro sent Che Guevara Prot Oriente Province to the Province of Santa Clara. And I think. that. he had 150 or 160 men. in Santa Clara there were plenty of people flighting, because this was not such an isolated place as Criente was, and it was not only the student group; there was also the people of the Willian ‘Morgan group which were the third front, and they alone with 2,900 people. But Castro wanted to have a chair over there somehow to control the situation, cand one... “of the things, or the orders was to dispose of Rolando Henoya. Mr. Hornbeck. You are saying one of the mis sions. of ‘Che Guevara was to eliminate or kill both Menoya and cubéla so that Castro would be the only leader? Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. How do you have that information? Mr. Espinosa. From Cubela and from other people who. were there at the time, because the thing is that somenow: ‘they found out by some of the students from the University of Ortente who were with Castro. Mr. Hornbeck. Was tnere any confrontation with eithe Che Guevara or Castro? Mr. Espinosa. Che arrived there and took him and. put him ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC ‘Docla:32248213 Page go 7th STREET, sv w. “REPORTERS BUILOING, WASHINGTON, D. Cc. 20024. (202 564. 23865,
10. 11 “42 14 15 - 16 17 18- “19 “20, 21. 23 25 HW. 53080. — Docld: 32248213 ‘Page. 68 under custody. So there was anotner thing back and forth ‘from. 9) aa Griente to Santa Clara until the suy was relieved but: he wa three or four days under custody. Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately what time period was. this; can you pinpoint that. for.us? Mr. Espinosa. This would have been October, September or “October of 1958. - ‘ Mr. Hornbeck. Batista leaves Havana. approximately the first of January of 1959? ure Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. What arrangements, if any, were made between the various groups then? Mr. Espinosa. . Nothing. Mr. Hornbeck. How did it come about that Fidel Castro tnen came to power and Cubela and Menoya and some of the other leaders did not come to power? Mr. Espinosa. I don't know. I always woncered about that myself. And as I said to you, I used to be in the hospital room with Rolando at the time when he’ was: wounded, when he was going through the operation with the arm, and po was there wnen Castro came to see him, and when che came to see him and Raul Castro came to see him, and when the other leaders from the student groups came to see him. They had discussions about this and, first of all, they were abl’ or the people, wiser people, better trained by the Coumunists oF _ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY: “INC. Bat STREET: S.W. REPORTERS BUILD: NG. WASHINGTON, D: c “0024: “(202)-554:2345 -
10 11 12 14 15) 16 17 18 19 09 coy 21 23 25. course, and they knew exactly what we were doin ls and we didnt. Know exactly what we were doing. We were fighting once tne war was over, we didn't know what.to do and we didn't- have any ambition of power. And when I say "we," I don't count and I am talkin vabout the people who were there; mostly I am talking about’ ‘Rolando, ‘ana there was no ambition of power or any of that. - There Was just to get the Buy out ana that is it. Our aim was to Stop, wnen these people! Ss aims were very well planned for far anea Mr. Hornbeck. Did there come a time when you, ana Cuvee Split. as to your. views of Castro? os -Mr...Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. . Can you tell us approximately: vihen’ ‘that, Nappened, and can you describe how you came apart? 8 Mr. Espinosa. well, as I said at the beginning,. when he came into tlavana, immediately they called me and they--said, "Rolando is going to-be here.in about one hour and they want you to be at the University.' He came in 15 or 20 minutes late, and ne said to me, I think we are going to have a lot of problems with Castro and - the 26th of July as a symbolic thing, because. SO. many’ of our. friends got killed on the attack of the- Presidential, ‘Palace, and Antonio. was killed that day, and. not there. but, another” part of Havana, and we went and took the Presidential Palace as a gesture and a symbolic thing. _ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, NC, HW 53080 Docldr32248213 Page 62 7th STREET, S:W. ‘REPORTERS’ BUILDING: WASHINGTON, 0:C. 20024” (202) 554- 2345
40 at 5 - - 14 415 16 AT 18 20 . “21 23 “224 oe 25 HW.53080 DocTd:32248213 Page “70... or not guilty, they got shot and that is it.” The first two or three months we were together all of the. time. Then I started disagreeing with him on things, and -I | guess I was a wise ass at the time, especially about’ the things that we were letting Castro get away with, especially. where he had to take absolute power Over everything and.we- were getting bull shit in return. And the fact was I never liked the guy; and as a matter of fact, I nated him, and rT. never knew his politics.vecause I don't know. Some people find out their wives or girls are fooling around with somebody else for two or three years, and just. from the beginning I thought this was going the wrong ways. So. I started having arguments with Rolando and asking for explanations from him, because this was not what we fought for and not wnat our friends died’for, and "So you. are becoming an accomplice of Castro and I cannot understand this." - oO He said, "Why do you say that, and why are you putting up ‘With this?! I said, "And tney are taxing land away from people and they are shooting soldiers who never shot in’the whole war and | just shooting them and there was -no trial, and.I have seen.the~ trials and they were mockeries, and whether they were guilty So he wouldn't give me the right answers) and he would. say, "Well, there is a revolution." And I said, "I don't understand tnat, Rolando, and I don't understand ib, and. I - ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC... 02> ©
10 11 12 O 8 a4 15 16 V7 18 49 20 21 23 24 25 HW 53080. Doold: 32248213. Page 7 Gon't understand the things that are nappening, and. you -are being an accomplice because you are in a position to do - Something and you are not doin on anything, and you. are pleying his ball gate." In the beginning we discussed these matters, and then we and ct Started getting very close in, and I really didn't unders it. And to the point one day we had a discussion in my house -and he told my mother, "When your son goes to jail, then call me," and I said, "T-won't call you,?! Kr. Hornbeck. Rolando said that to your mother? Mr. Espinosa. Yes. | Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately when did you leave Havena? Mr. Espinosa. I left Havana in 1959. = Mr. Hornbeck. When in 1959? Mr. Espinosa. I don't know if it was October or. September or November; somewhere between October and december. Mr. dornbdeck. During the period of time that you came to the United States and went to train in the Bay of Pigs and came back to the United States, did you have any contact. with Cubela? Mr. Espinosa. Well, some guys and myself,.we thought at the time we were allowed to go to South America’.and I-and some others were goin ou to Panama or Nicaragua, and so we got’ the idea -- and there is one thing I forgot to tell you. At the beginning when things began, there was.a lot. of 6 o : & & ? araarees __ALDERSON.REPORTING COMPANY, INC) 000 v- Vaart A vs
10 11 12 ag 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 25 HW 53080 . DoclId:32248213 ; Page 72 friction witn the 26th of July, and we took all of the weapons from an arsenal in some base outside of “avena and Etumbst nave been 500 M-1 rifles and 2 few 50-caliber machine guns and copule of nundred of Thompson submachine guns, and some mortars, a 190 tank. gun, and somehow all of the things were hidden by ime. kolando told me to hide it in a place, tnat we were going to need it one day. So I hid it in my house, and we had a very big house, so big that when they came looking for these they couldn't find it because it was like an old castle and there were like hidden doors, hidden panels and things like that. They came looking for it and they didn't find it, and SO about two or tnree weeks after. that I put. the whole thing. in. a truck and took it to a resort very near to where I was born, in Varadero. So I took it over there and we decided, a few guys who were going to do something, go to the hills or do something, and we came out with this idea to go to some other country and do something so we could get away and cover our’ activities, we got caught. Mr. Hornbeck. By whom? Mr. Espinosa. By Castro. de got caught, and we were taken to Military Intelligence, and there were about six or seven of us, “and ALDERSON. REPORTING COMPANY, INC;. AN Fth OTREET . as peonetrere RQ! In DIA VALACUIAIATAR A Re anata. AAA Gfa 294
HW 53080. 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 7 20 21 (23 24 25 Docld: 32248213 Page 73 | 60 they got all the weapons. Someone Squealed and they infiltrated somebody in the group. And I don't Know what was going to happen, but it was a little bit scary at the time, and so we were uncommunicated for several days and we were questioned, and we were Sticking to our story we going to Guatemala or someplace else. And I can't remember now, and Rolando was in Spain and my motner called him and he came: over and he got us out, Mr, Hornbeck, Was there any particular reason he was in Spain at that time? Mr. Espinosa. He was a playboy. Mr. Hornbeck. It had nothing to do with Castro? Mr. Espinosa. No. He went:over thereto havea good’ time, and so actually the threat that he made, "Call me and I will help you," and my mother called him and he. came over and he got us out. Fa Mr. Hornbeck. After your period in the United States, Combat” a did you have any combeet with him? Mo Mr. Espinosa. No. The only time I nad contact was” when I told you that I went to Paris and these people: contadte 2d me Mr. cHornbeck. I am going to get to that, “and. ES want: ‘to. establish whether Or not, during the years ‘that. you were in tne United States ana training for the Bay of Pigs and were in New York, that you had no direct contact with him and did you have any indirect contact through mutual friends? ne ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, Detar SA Orme t Ar BERRA TFBS Bin RIA AA AURA ARR A AAAR A AAA cea ane
10 11 12 13 15 16 17 18 19 21 23 25 © HW 53080. Docld: 32248213 “Page. “44 Mr. forabeck. Castro activities? Mr. Espinosa. Mr.- Hornbeck. time? Mr. Espinosa. Mr. Hornbeck, tou were engaged at that time in no anti- tou were not working for the CIA at that Approximately when did you end your Services or employment with the CIA? Mr. Espinosa. Mr. Hornbeck. I would say in the end of 1941. when you arrived in Paris, did you have a contact who gave you some information about Cubela? Mr. Espinosa. Mr. Hornbeck, Mr. ESpinosa. Mr. Hornbeck, Mr. Espinosa. Mr. Hornbeck. that you met him in Mr. Espinosa. Mr. Hornbeck. Consulate in Paris, Mr. Espinosa. three at the time. Mr. Hornbeck, Yes. What was the name of that contact? : Jose Trasancos. How long had you known Jose Trascancos? All of my-life. what was his position in Paris at the time 1965? He was working at the Cuban. Consulate. How long had he been with the. Cuban: if you Know? I don't know, but for a couple of year's or I assume by the fact that he was working _ ALDERSON’ REPORTING company, INC, BB, 3 Ith: STREET. ¢ Ww REPORTERS RI an NING \APA CHINATAAL: Ree Sanda enewReA cone
@ 1 abroad in the Cuban Consulate that he enjoyed some confidence 2 with tne Castro government? @) 3 mr. Espinosa. I don't know about thet. I think at the 4 time the eovernnent wasn't established enough to really ‘lamp 5 down on the people that they should or should not have” in 6 their consulates, and there were so many things to put 7 together over there and it-was a4 very bad situation, and 8 otherwise, he wouldn't have been there and they hean't clamped 9 down. 10 Mr. Hornbeck. - What information did he relate Lo you that 11 involved Rolando Cubela? fe 12 Mr. Espinosa. He told me that he had seen cubela in O a - 13 Paris; that there was something going on but he didn’! t. want Lo oo 14 tell me, and he wanted somebody else £0 tell me the. whoke 18 thing. 16 ar. tiornbeck. Is there some reason why he didn't want to “17 relate the Story to. you? an 18 Mr. Espinosa. Because he didn't know much .a bout, it but “19 he } xnew they had tried to get ahold of me but he. “said, 20 | "Rolando is involved with the CIA and there is something z 21 happening, and I think you should see Robreno." a 22 Mr. Hornbeck. Could you identify Robreno for us, as to “23 who he is and where he was from and what was your “relationship O . oy) with him. “25 Mr. Espinosa. dis name is George Robreno and hevis a ALDERSON’ REPORTING COMPANY HW 53080 - ‘Docla: 32248213 © “Page. 26 7th STREET; Siw, REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON: D.C. 20024 (202) $54-2345 -
10 11 12 | 14 15 16 17 18 19 - 20 (21 23 25 “HW 53080 Docld:32248213.. Page 77 mr. Hornbeck, when you say "punk," do ae o c fea oO ~~ no Ss re) or o) (o: Some criminal sackground? Mr. Espinosa. I don't know, Dut he is a delinquent, Tet uS put it that way. I am not a full-time delinquent as ne is. ri@é Was involved with the student movement in Havana and she knew Rolando very well. Mr. Hornbeck. When you were describing him as a delinguent, do you wean he would engage in crime or do anything for money, or what is it? Mr. Espinosa. He was a bad boy; and do you know what. a bad boy is? He was-a bad boy. When he used tobe a kid, if there was a blind man crossing a street with a stick, he would take the stick from the blind man, is that right? “Thatois the Kind of thing he would do when he was a kid and man, what he grew up to be. | He was with Castro's government and he was at one. point the head of some revolutionary tribunals and he carried out a lot of deatn sentences. | Mr. Hornbeck. What was he doing at the time thav- you. heard nis name in 1965? ee Mr. Espinosa. I don't know what he was doing in Madrid, Dut I know that he had gotten into so many problews with the governiwent in Cuba that they just said, "Okay," and they: put him into prison for something, and I don't know exactly what _ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING)»: AAN Teh GTREET. Gaal REDAATEBS RINEAINA AMAGUINATAN. AUR 5AADA InAnerA Ande >
10 11 “2 O a ° 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 _ 24 25 HW°53080° Docld:32248213 Page 78. - ‘on the telephone and I said "I am sending you a-ticket. . it was, and they said, “Okay, elther you stay nere forever. or ' you leave tie country and we ift want you here anymore. !” ~ GG “ar. Hornbeck. He was living in Madrid at tne time-you.. were in Paris? Mr. ESpinosa. Yes. And when Rolando started his thimrg witn the CIA, I guess he was talking to him, too. Hornbeck. How were you going to meet him? wWere-you g0ing to go to Spain? Espinosa. I was going to go to Spain. At the time I nad one of his alien American passports, since I never had my Own passport because the Spanish government, it would take | them a month -- | Mr. Hornbeck. So the CIA originally took your passport from you? Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. Were you in touch with the CIA at all when you were in Paris? Mr. ESpinosa. No. Mr. Hornbeck. All right. So you did not get to Spain? Mr. Espinosa. I didn't get Lo Spain. And .T celled nim ket “Come over and see me in Paris." And he was the first one who told me the story. | | Mr. Hornbeck. Can you just relate bo us; in sunimary,» wnat he told you about this particular involvement. of Cubela? | ALDERSON:REPORTING:COMPANY, INC,. . AAA Tt OTREET. CIA) REDNATEDE SHEARING MALACLUMATARE BA aAnnA fang cea aac |
1 “wr. Espinosa. That Cubela had been talk ing to séme.CIA.- - 2 people; that there was going to be an uprising or a coup.or «) 3 something down in Cuba led by Cubela and a few other peopie 4 who were in the government at the time, or in the arity,’ and 5 that for some reason Cubela didn't trust Williamson in Spain. 6 . Mr. Hornbeck. Can you identify who Williamson was? 7 Mr. Espinosa. What I had been led to Delieve, Williamson 8 was head of the CIA in Spain at the time. 9 Mr. Hornbeck. Was’ there a reason given to you as to woOY 10. Cubela did not trust him? | 11 Mr. Espinosa. Yes.. He. said to me that he ‘was living == 12 first he was an alcoholic and living with this Cuban» girl, who e co B had taken information from him, taken files with her. and’ went | ~ 14. back to Cuba. | | 15 Mr. Hornbeck. This is inform ration thea & you heard? 16 Mr. Espinosa. Tnis is what they told me; why Solando 17 didn't want to speak to Williamson any longer. 18 Mr. Hornbeck. You are getting this information from 19 Cubela? 20 Mr. Espinosa. Yes. And how much trutna is involved. In “21 this I can't say. So that Rolando didn't want ‘toe talk to. im 2. anymore and that I should come over here ecgeug ne 23 and I said "I am no longer with the CIA,” and they said owe @ ae 24 want "25 Mr. dornbeck. Now, had your original contact, in Paris you to get in touch with them and tell then ell of. this. ALDERSON REPORTING, COMPANY, INC, : AW 53080 ~Docld: 32248213. Page. 79 aie STREET SAT: Resnatere Ri ur NINA ATR UUIMISPNR CR RORAAR A IAA cea anAe
10 11 12 414 16. 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 53080 DocId: 32248213 Page 80. mentioned to you he thougnt you were in the CIA? Mr. ESpinosa. Yes. hr. Hornbeck, Had ne called you to come to Paris of you just came to Paris independently? | Mr. Espinosa. No. It. was somebody that if I ever went to Paris I was going to call. Mr. Hornbeck, So Paris was entirely your idea? Mr. Espinosa. Entirely a pleasure trip. Mr. tornbeck. Was there any particular reason way you would spend your own personal money bo have Cubela.come to Paris from Spain? - “Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Still, you. know, I think: $150: ‘or something, for something as important as this, I. could. send my friend and my country, it wasn't. going to make sucha big hole in iny pocket. | Mr. Hornbeck. bid Cubela say anything about any Soviets in Cuba during this conversation? ‘ir. Espinosa. HO. They didn't say anything about. Soviets in Cuba, but Blanco -- I cannot remenber his first name; we used to call him the crazy Blanco -- Tr. met: him: and he was on his way to Cuba fron Prague, Céechoslovakia, and ne was on his way from Russia to Cuba via Czechoslovakia and, Paris and he was the one who mentioned about the Russian~. technicians; to make sure and to make sure to tell the CIA that if there was going to be any Kind of doublecrossing of "ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ANG, aaa! Wo AKRF ES A Mir “REAR TERS BLE AINA LATA QUIRIETONE ne! anda. toni BRALI2AR -
O cmW 53080 (1 10 11 12 A3 15 » 16 47 18 oo 24 25 Docla: 32248213 “Bage, BL: Hh STREET OW REPORTERS RI. nING WASHINGTON inom oan04- (209) BRA. 9748 ne OG: this operation, they were going to take care of these :Russian tecnnicians who were aavisors, or whatever they were, who were in their particular place. Mr. Hornbeck. All right. How did you know Blanco? | Mir. Espinosa. I knew Mir. Hornbeck, And was was coming tnrough Paris at Mr. Espinosa. I don't Mr. dornbeck. How did Mr. ESpinosa. Because it just coincidence the same time that you were there? KNOW. he know how anyoody who will. always contact this guy Trasancos; him from Cuba. that Elanco to contact you? would come to. Paris, at least this. ‘kind of oF people because we all knew each other from Cuba. Mr. Hornbeck, activities prior to 1959? Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornoeck. information abdout the Soviet technicians, When Elanco else present during the conversation? Mr. Espinosa. No, Mr. Hornbeck. Blaneo and Robreno in Paris? Mr. Espinosa. No. Mr. Hornoeck. and Trasancos? Mr. Espinosa. No. And no conversations between you, . Had Blanco been with you and Cubela’in. gave you this particular was there anyone it was only he and I. Were there any conversations between. you, Blanco, But there were conversations. between | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC}
10 1 “12 Oo. * 14 » 15 16 _ 17 18 19 20 “21 23 = 24 25 HW 53080 © Docld:32248213. Page. 82. a Cubela, Trasancos and myself. Mr. roraoeck. Can you tell us. what the conversation is? Mr. Espinosa. he one I mentioned before, everything that Cubela told me about.the CIA and Williamson in Spain: he said to me in front of Trasancos. | ur. Hornbeck. Is your testimony that there was then an agreement between the three of you that Cuoela needed to change his CIA contact? Mr. Espinosa. I-didn't agree to anything. All I said, was tney landed the story on me in the middle of my Parisian Vacation, and because it-was Rolando and it was something that I could have some importance or sense in the future, I came. over here and I contacted them the best way I-could, | Mr. Hornbeck. In other words; you were going tobe the messenger for the contacts they felt that they didn't have? Mr. Espinosa. Yes, more or less, that was the idea. mr. Hornbeck. And-you then traveled from Paris to hew Mr. Espinosa. That is right. Mr. Hornbeck. And who pays for your ticket? Mr. Espinosa. If I go to Paris and I live in the. States, I have to have a round-trip ticket. | | oe ; Mr. tlornbecx. . wnat I am getting at, so you understand the purpose of the deposition, we have to ask as’much detail as possible, and what I am really getting at is whether or- not: ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, ING, SAN WROTE SAS DEDABTEDS DIN NINIA: WALAQEINATAN MOST INADA “19001 BRA D2AR
10 11 | 12 O | Lo 13 ag 45 16. 17 18 a) 20 44 23 24 25 HW 53080. Docld:32248213" Page-83..0). ‘ the CIA paid for any part of this operation. mr. Espinosa. io. I went to London and then to Paris and then to come back to New York 15 days later, and this happened when I was there, and I came back to tiew York. on my. ticket Originally purchased by me, and I was never refunded by CIA or any other governnent agency. I got to New York and I contacted Mr. Cavasantos. Mr. Hornbeck. He was an officer with the Immigration . tee Service? Mr. &Spinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. And you had some previous relationship; is that true? a Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us briefly what that was? Mr. Espinosa. He lifted two bans against traveling, and all the things that I mentioned before. Mr. Hornbeck. You first contacted him, and what did you tell him? | Mr. Espinosa. I said, "I have to contact someone in the CIA, and of course I have no idea how to contact anybody.” So he said, "Okay." He picked up the telephone and he called somebody in the FBI office in New York and He Sent. me to See this fellow. a Mr. Hornbeck. Tnis is first the FBI? Mr. Espinosa. Yes. . ALDERSON REPORTING: COMPANY, INC,” AAA Jeb OTR EET OAAl -BODAD TED? OF AINA Vasa CUINIATARE RUA AAAMA TAAN cea ana
“10 11 12 oO .* oe, 14 15 16 17 18 19 20. 21 “23 “25 HW 53080 © Docld:32248213 Page B40 - 24 ye Mr. Hornbeck. Did you go to the FEI office or did the | agents come to see you? : Mr. Espinosa. I went to the FBI office. Mr. Hornbeck. How many agents did you talk to? Mr. Espinosa. I talked to one fellow. Mr. Hornoeck. How much of the Cubela's story that you learned in Paris did you relate to him? Mr. Espinosa. Nothing. Mr. Hornbeck. what did you tell him, basically? Mr. Espinosa. I told hin, I guess he must’ have-spoken to -Cavasantos before, and I said, "Look, I just came from. Europe; there is something happening and I would have to contact. someone in the CIA, and I used to work for them and T'was involved in the Bay of Pigs. Anything you want to check what Iam telling you, you can check with that.” Mr. Hornbeck. Did you mention Cubela's name to .either Cavasantos or to the FBI? Mr. Espinosa. Maybe; I can't say for sure, but _mayoe. Mr. Hornbeck. Your best miemory is that you did-not. | “discuss .much of the details? x Mr. Espinosa. No. Nr. Hornbeck. At some point were you put im contact with the CIA? a Mr. Espinosa. Yes. aes Mr. Hornbeck. Can you tell us where the meeting took. ALDERSON RERORTING COMPANY, INC, La OR RAR SEAR Ri RRR LATA AAI RRA ROR LAAANA HAA fra Anal
era 1 place and how many people were present? 2 Mr. Espinosa. The meeting took place at the FEE office ‘e) 3 in New York, and there was only one person prese 4 Mr. Hornbeck. This is someone from the Agency? 5 “Mr. Espinosa. Again, I assume he was. 6 Mr. Hornbeck, Could you pnysically describe this 7 individual? 8 hr. Espinosa. Yes. He was a man in the late forties or. S- early fifties, gray hair, and he must have been blond, but -10 very neavy gray at the time, and blue eyes. W Mr. Hornbeck. Glasses? 12 Mr. Espinosa. Ho glasses. Very well fit and very Oo 13 handsome guy. | 14 Mr. Hornbeck. Approximately how tall and how’much did ‘he 15 weigh? 16 Mr. ESpinosa. He was, I. would say, about 5°10" or 5'11", 17, 170 pounds. 18 Mr. Hornbeck. During. your conversation with this 19 individual, did you relate all-of the details of the 20 information that you had learned in Paris? ar, Mr. Espinosa. I did. oars a) Mr. Hornbeck. ‘Did you include the portion told you'by - 23 Blanco about the alternative plan with the Soviet technicians? 24 Mir. Espinosa. Yes. | cle, "25 Mr. Hornbeck. What reaction, if any, did you get ‘from. re Lo ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, a HW 53080 DecTd:32248213 Page 839 j-stpeet-s.w. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024: (202) 564.2345»
10 11 12: Oo. 8 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 25 this particular individual? Mr. said "I a Spain tog I wa New York, washingto charge of time was oe Espinosa. He was very cool, composed man, and-she . i) $ oin OL ou ua to Washington. and I will contact you ‘in-the next couple of days or three, maybe, and maybe we will, go to etner or sonebody will ZO with you.” Ss so upset about this that I got a Friend of mine in through Senator Javits, to get me a meeting in n here with some sub-secretary of foreign affairs in the Cuban thing, and I never heard from this guy and going by, and I.told this friend of mine and througn Javits he got me to come here and see this guy, and I came’ here and get in to Mr. met with Mr. ‘to. Mr. that? Mr. have him it happen Mr. I told him the whole story. And he said, "We wilt uch with you," and they. never did. Hornbeck. Do: you have any idea who it was that you in Washington? Espinosa. he. Hernbeck. Did you ever keep a diary or on a card? Espinosa. I could find out eventually if I wanted Hornbeck. Do you think that you might be ablé todo Espinosa. Yes. I would have to call this “guy: and call Javits and trace the-thing back.to the time. when ed, but I am sure it can be traced. tlornbeck. Do you remember the building: where you - ALDERSON:RERORTING COMPANY, INC, © *: HW 53080 Docld:32248213 Page .8& 9 7:4. sTREET, $.W2:REPORTERS. BUILDING, WASHINGTON; D.C. 20024: (202) 554-2345
“40 11 12 13 14 15. 16 “17 18 19 -20 23 25 5 Came to in washington to speak wit! Ly ct a he 107) G it) + ct tw oO Cc bh 548) + individual? Mr. ESpinosa. No. Mr. Hornbeck. Your cest memory is that it was some official in the State Department? Mr. Espinosa. Yes, it was some official in the State Department; some kind of sub- secretary or something in charge of Cuban affairs. But I was there and he didn't put me on to some monkey room. I Know I saw somebody, the right person. Mr. Hornbeck. ‘I assume that you aid wait the two or three days in few York before you contacted your friend to reach Senator Javits? a | Mr. Espinosa. I waited longer than that. “I waited e O couple of weeks and nothing happened, and then I-got .in touch With this guy because I knew ne is very friendly with Javits, ana I said, "I know you nave friends in Washington, and all of that, and there is something that I have to discuss." Mr. Hornoeck. Did you ever think about contacting the. CIA directly through one ¢? your old contacts? Mr. Espinosa. I never had any contacts. wh ina t: contacts? They. are guys living in Miami for two or three or: “four ‘months, and one day they disappear, and "Freddy Goned "aided aver. see him again, and maybe he is sent to Guatemala © or Central Europe, or whatever, and then you see another guy and you don't call them. They call you. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC; AW ‘53080 Docld: 32248213 | Page: ‘BHO 7th STREET, SW: REPORTERS: BUILDING, ‘WASHINGTON, D. C. 20024. + (202) 554- 3348.
1 Mr. Hornpeck, Was there any bad feeling between youvand.<"% 2 the Agency when you terninated your relationship with thém ino. 3819612 | | 4 Mir. ESpinosa. I don't Know. From my part it was a lot 5 of bad feeling. 6 Mr. Hornbeck. you felt you had not been treated fairly 7 by the Agency? . 8 Mr. Espinosa. Not me. I felt a lot of people got killed 9 for nothing. | | 10 Nr. Hornbeck. All right. After you came to Washington 11 and discussed this particular situation, what was the next 12 thing that you did? 7 oe 13 Mr. Espinosa. Let me make a parenthesis now. ‘This guy, oO - : . 14 one of the reasons wny I assumed he must have been. from the 15 CIA, is when I touched the thing about George Robreno, 16 immediately ne said to me, "El Maga," this is Like a°nane ‘that “17 only people that are close to him or that- know nim very well 18 or from the Agency would know his name. 19 Mr. Hornbeck. Could you spell that? 20 Mir, Espinosa. M-a~g-a. It is aagician in English. . And» 221 he agidn't have any accent when he said "El Magaw | 22 Mr. Hornbeck. You are discussing the conversation ‘with 23 the fellow you assumed to be from the Agency in New York’ when e er? you first arrived? | | 25 Mr. Espinosa. Yes. And he was saying to. me, ; "How mueh _ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, WW 53080 Docta: 32248213. Page 8380,7th STREET, S.W.: REPORTERS BUILDING, "WASHINGTON: b.c. 20024 (202) 554-2345 ©
10 "1 43 14 45 16 “17 8 19 20 ceo 23° 25 do you trust what he said?" and I said "You know now he bswk and ne Said, “Yes, I know how he is," but the guy knew theo” background of aim. ‘ir. tlornbeck. When you mentioned Blanco, did the” individual’ you assuiied to have been from the Agency come up Witn his nickname? Mr. Espinosa. .ho. Mr. Hornbeck. Did he act as though he knew who you were talking about? Mr. Espinosa. No. Mr. Hornbeck. Did he ask you for any identifying. information about Blanco? Mr. Espinosa. ‘No. Mr. Hornbeck. During this time then that you were vin washington in 1965, did you ever contact Mike MeLaney. to see if-he could help in some fashion? | Mr. Espinosa. I would have contacted Mike MeLaney to help me in other things, but not to get me in contact with the Cla. Mr. Hornbeck, Did you contact Mike McLaney for: any’ social or personal reasons? - Mr. Espinosa. At that time, no. For vores everd,tie I went to Miami, and all of the time I lived in the State every time I went to Miami I contacted Mike; every bine. “but I contacted him socially to have a drink or zo whoring around, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY; INC, . HW: 53080 DocId: 32248213 “Page 80 7th STREET, S.W. [REPORTERS BUILDING, “WASHINGTON, D. c. 20024 “iz02) 554- 2345
10 11 12 14 15. 16 17 18 19 20. 21 23 25 HW 53080. DocId:32248213° Page 90. or something; nothing to do up to that second attenpt-with the plane, and tnat was it. Mr. horabeck. Dida you-return. to New York then after your. washington trip? | Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. Gid. you receive any contact froin any - government agency? Mr. Espinosa. Ho. Mr. Hornbeck. And that includes the FBI? Mr. Espinosa. Yes. Mr. Hornbeck. So you did not hear from the FBI? Mr. Espinosa. No. | Mr. Hornbeck. (How long did you stay in New York, #f you can estimate? - | ‘ir. Espinosa. I left New York in 1967. Mr. Hornbeck. So you spent the next approximately two and a half years in New York? Mr. Espinosa. No. I would say the next two years: in New York, because this was June or July of 1965, and T left. in March or Arpil of 1967; so a little bit less than” a years Mr. Hornbeck. Did you have any contact strcanny a indirectly with Cubela during the time tnat you were in. tiew York? | Mr. Espinosa. lo. Mr. Hornbeck. Did you hear from Blanco or Robréno-or ‘ ALDERSON: REPORTING COMPANY. INC,” madigi APAEEY. OVAL GEDORTERS RIITAING WASHINGTON. D. C. 0024 (202) 554- 2345