Released under the John F. Kennedy Assassination 
Records Collection Act of 1992 
(44 USC 2107 Note) 
NW 53216 6/17/17
104-10210-10029 4 Reel #5 29 July 1965 TRANSLATION ... C(If)) you had it, And when we cone to your education we will add it to wrat I have said ((about parents, background, etc.)) -- your education in high school, the Navy school, and the Institute of International Relations. I do not know what you want to say. I want to say that ((since)) you have found the ((in English)) excuse of "taking into account ny hicher education," we will return to this question; I just want to remind you so that you will not forget. I will put this all together.. (. Please: or .too bad. ) ~.-im time.... Of course, of course. I would like you to find something better.... I cannot find anything better, because I did not decide the question about myself; I do not know how the question was decided.... I am asking you, from the point of view of a counter intelligence officer, how do you (: evaluate: ) ((this)). And I do not intend to resolve the question of ny life-on ((to confora _with)) one date. APPROVED FOR RELEASE 1994 | . CIA HISTORICAL REVIEW PROGRAN at seuches .
104-10210-10029 be. Place yourscl? in the place of SNURNYANOY or FEDOTO’, having in nind the position of ({sone)) IVANGY. as if {it were yours «= vhat would be your decision. a 5B. I do not knov; if I-were in his place, then it would be another thing (x6). . A. Because you told us at one tine that you were a wortay countcr= intelliconce officer, Dut now yo. modestly say that you wore such a siiuple, little.... B. In 1953, in 1954.... A. ...A little case officer. B. Now, why are you turning thints around That. is not right. In 1953, 1954, 1935 and 1956, I really was nothing; I was only a case officer. If you are talking about 1954, you are richt. A. Yes, B. Right; waat do you want me to tel you -- that in 1954 they valued ne and Liked me anc respected ne. A. Oh, do you remenber, in the beginning, in the beginning, when you had just established contact with us, hew ({you said)) you had worted against the journalists, against military attaches, and that you had recruited dozens of Americans, and so forth. B. Not at all, not at all; you do not have to... you do not have to paint things that way.... ((XG; A and R speak at the same tine)) pene Fl ce of aH
104-10210-10029 é aaa 5 A. A. I can sinply remind you of that waich you said carlier: nothing sore, You do not have to paint thints that way. Anyway let us think about where the bones lie hidden. ((Long pause)) I do not xnow, I do not know. Vhat kind of bones’ Where. I do not now. ((Long nrause)) I do not snow. What ‘ind of bones. I do ryt “uow anything, : I never said that I was an ideal and outstanding worker. I worked as I could and as I had to, I never said that I had recruited dozens. If I participated, I participated. I have told how they treated nme. As if you were the best man, they sent you to Geneva... as the best counterintellicence officer. How “as the best". In 1962, it was necessary for them to send net a senior case officer, nor a case officer, but someone higher. Well, that you were bigger does not fit ~- I do not see it. You understand ~- if you somewhere somewhat.... ((Interrupts)) ‘You know, this will not kill me, because I already have | - heard this 482 ((times)) — I have heard that I was not.a good employee that I am nothing. : . I have heard this more than once; please continue in the same spirit. I do not think that anyone told you that you are nothing.
a aA. 104-10210-10029 —_ Well, they did not say “nothing” =~ that is richt; it would be rude..., It is risht that I have exaccented: absolutely richt. Now many tines has it been said, “Vell, what kind of a worker were you. Waat kind." We still do not have the EGR here == we have not come to that yet. Right, right; yes @-- you have hot come to that but... somewhat... something I did not expect from Amcrican intelligence or countcrintelli- gence, What, for exanple? Let us not talk about it -- this is a stage that already has been passed; it is behind. | Well, I an interested in knowing. You know everything very weil. You ‘cnow every letter, every stage; you know everything If I knew everything, then we would not nave to be talking... No, I say, what was, was; you know. I do not know what you have in mind; I do not think that we did anything unusual; I do not think there was anything out of the ordinary; it was just everyday life. That is not life; it was a sad existence. Well, let us see, let us talk about it -~ whose fault is it. Well, how is it my fault. — Tell me why it is ny fault; tell me why I am doing time, tell me why Meh
104-10210-10029 3 : Ioan doing tine. You tell mc, “Wo do not helfeve you" ((sut)) this is not a reason for aonan to do tliine. 4. Do not loo: for the entire fault in yourself; I an not blanins: only you... B. No, I understand -< that over there ({tue “Gh)).... A. Yes, “over there’.... B. ...oncuse me, they are crapping on uc.... A, ...Yes, “over there", “over there", B. I understand that, over there, they.... A. What = “over there": B. Well... that they we throurmh the agent network: and through trusted persons, etc. -=— they are “riving it to"me. I know how it is done, how 4 man can be turned into nothing, into nothins! I know this. Whether you want it or not, there is sonething coming from over there; I know ubout this very well. A. We will tal: about waat is coming ((from over therc)) and waat is not coming. Of course, you are interested in knowing what is coming; but I would like to know what you think is going on there. Be What do I think. What do I think: - I think, I !mow, that, of course, a decision already has been made about me, and they have seatenced me to death; and some kind of case | has been opened against me, just as a case was opened against GOLITSYN,
104-10210-10029 i - o s as I heard, vA Measures are. tt:ien and the relatives are nut under control. A. Cut why control thon. BG. Well, porirans a letter sight co throuch. A. Well, anyway (Cit is said that)) the NGn has chanced; they are so vood and litseable.... BE. Who told you that. A. That is waat they write. B. “Taney write"... a. They Sinoly are so ind that they are kissinr the Soviet neonple's asses, B. Oh, yes. ’ a. Well, iz they are not so csood, in your cpinion, then.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same tinc)) -.Wnat is holding you back from opening your heart and forgetting your past: , They ((the KGD)) are entirely to blame, etc.; way do you not make up : your mind to say, "Screw them", and begin from the very beginning and 4 tell the truth. - B. I am telling you only the truth; if there were sone small.... ((iG; A and B speak at the same time)) A. Well, I have been talking with you for 3 days, and I do not see any
104-10210-10029 conftirnation of wiat you eall thie truth. ; _ 3 y ; mn GB. ‘I am tellin: you only the truth, absolutely. CCG; A and Bo seeaz ay the sane time)) a 2 ; A. Well, you are forgetting that we have just finished tal:ine for the ‘vast sour about the anketa, and you could not ansver the simplest things. B.° I am tellin: you waat I remenber. a. One cannot believe that you worked there; I to not know what keeps you Zrom talizing sense, as they say. BR. Well, way do you say that A. ((Pause)) Well, one more question -——- what do you know about the Personnel record sheet (lichnyy listo: po uchetu tadrov). B. What Personnel record sheet? &. ¥hat is the Personnel record sheet’ Wnat kind of document is it: B. I do not know; I do not know the Personnel record sheet, I do not know. | A. Yell, on every Party member and every Komsomol menber yorking in the . 4 organs of the ifvD or in povernuent work, or even 1 non—Party member having some higher education or qualifications and on whom there is ‘a personnel file in the KGB or the Council of Ministers or the CC CPSU and so forth... the CPSU Central Committee issues this Personnel record ‘ sheet; it is sone sort of anxeta. B. I do not know it. ‘io A. It is completed by everyone. ame tint
104-10210-10029 s ; B. I never conpleted it; I do not iknow what it is; I co not snow, A. It is not very important to the MVD, but -~ in accordance with a CC CPSU Gecision -~ every employee fills it out, B. I do not know, I do not snow | A. it represents a true picture of the educated enplorees. B. knaat goes into it. A, There is the usual infornation in it, but I do not want to explain vhat there is. B. I do not now, I do not knov. A. It begins with the questions == surnane, first name, patronymic; date and place of birth; social baciiground; curation of Party ncnbership; Party identification card nunber, This sheet is, as thoy say, 2 Party~Xomsomol record: it is conpleted by each employee; it is included in the Personnel file before the anketa. a B. I absolutely do not remember this sheet or its connletion, absolutely. A. Tnis, again, is one of the proofs that forces the conclusion that.... ' B. Honest, I absolutely do not remember this sheet or *ts conpletion inthe Personal files into which I looked. Because in 1962, 1963, we hired for the Third Section, restaurants and j hotels, a large nunber of former KGB enployees as non-=staffers; only former enplovees. Ard I do not remember this ((sheet)). Bad 46
104-10210-10029 A. You rrohably sav their Personnel Tiles, because @= “hen a men is ” ¥ . released -j—_ his file is sent to the Archives, thon anyone can take the file if he wants to make use of this emplovee, ((2G; 4 and 3 speak at the sane tine)) B. I absolutely do not remensher tais sheet. A. Wow do you emplain that you do not renenber your Party card nunber. B. I co not remember it, I do not renenber (CSG: A and B sneak at the sane tinc)) Loo: —= hear ne out, please; you asxed ne way I do not remenber it «=. I will tell you: you pay your dues; you go to 2 meeting and you now you have to show your card, so you tate it with you; I did not have to give the number; I take it alonsz: you keep it in the safe.... &. Ian not asking because anyone rants to know this number; but there is a procedure in the Conmnunist Party of the Soviet Union -- every member of the Party is oblirced to i:now the number of his Party card. ? (OiG: A and 3 speak at the same tinc)) Xt is not written ((in the Reculations)), but there is a procedure an¢ the Party Secretary always ass. A. I do not want to exaggerate, but I simply want to say that the 4 Secr2tary always asks when a man pays Ris dues =~ particularly new members, if they remember the number of their Party card. B. Well, they could ask; absolutely right. ((XG; A and B speak at the same tine)) A. It is, as they say, in the blood stream of every Party member _
104-10210-1002 -For what purpose is it: 9 except, of course, some stupid person who does not have any nenory at alk; ne acae not remenber -=| but all the rest renenmber. (Cin English)) Thank you very much. Well, I did not have ((you)) in mind... No, no, no, I understand, T understand ; But it is lorical to remenber. I was a me.iber of the Party but 1: ° aso. And do you remember the nuaber I remember the number quite well; it has stayed in ny memory, and I still remenber it. I do not recall my Komsonol card nunber. I do not know whether knew it well; probably I did, But I remember my Party wand numbcr «= and that was more than 20 years ago. “Look =@~- just a ninute; there te another number -- every employee has a serial number (lichnyy nouer); it is a metal plate. You keep it in the safe. | This number is indicated in the identification card which you carey with you every day, day and night. I do not remember it, but I know it had four digits: Ye00 , and then the number, Of course, no one ever asked you to remember the number of your identification card. No, this is not the identification card number; this is a serial number. What kind of a serial number?
104-10210-10029 B. It is for use in case of war,if you saould dic. A. When did they introduce this serial nunber. £E. I do not remember; I do not remezber. A. Well, you see, you contradict yourself -- on one hand, you t:y to prove that you were there, that you worked, but you canuot answer the. sinplest question about the number, and you do not know it. Well, very well; let us take this Line -—- how cany Party cards have you had altozether. B. A candidate membership card in 1956; when I was accepted in 1957, a membership card; that is all. A. When was the Party card exchange. B. That was before I was accepted, in 1955 or 1954. ‘A, At that time, did you receive a new Party card B. Yell, this was before ny tine. * In 1956, I received a candidate nemdership card and in 1957, a menber-= ship card; it was before my acceptance into the Party, in 1953 or 13954. A. Were there any other circumstances under which you exchanged..... B. The card.: Ko, A. Where did you leave your card when you left. B. In the safe... no, no; I lied —I left it with the Secretary of the = =. Party organization. What -- does every one have to turn them in when going abroad:
104-10210-10029 B. Not only vhen v-oinng abroad, A s : You see, I went abroad on TOY; I tinev that I would bo cone a nenth or tro; the rule cas to give it to the Secretary, and I left it with the Secretary. Toentrust tic receipt of pay for February and March to an enployee — SHYINGARLY |< to take out the dues, and pay the loan cashier; the rest of it =~ to my wife. And the Party card oes to the Secretary. ‘ 7-7 _ SF Cyou fo on a trip, and you snow that you will be gone for I> days and - you will be paid in the meantine, you leave the money and also the Party card wita the Secretary. A, Well, alrisut CAG). We will stop for today; we will continue our tal!: another tine. I want to s2y once more -- thin about wnat we have been discussing. B. (XG) Ind of 29, July 1935 Session. t ‘ 3 ' - } : t i i ; : 4 { +. on dohee | aitend hy pew)
104-10210-10029 + Mies Y eons ‘ 39 July 13723 Ecssion s br * : 4 Well, saat is now today The old cay nas passed; 4 nov day m= the 475rd -8} has betun. 23ored. 43rd, May JT nave a cicarette. You stfil have not Jorgotten how to count the days. I count on ny fingers; besides that, I take threads from my blanket and nake nunbers, For instance, the first of July; the next day is the secord of July. From the preceding nunaber, I maxe a new number every day; that is how I count. What other means of counting do you have- You can lose yourself that way. No; there is a whole number of ways. I save every day, every month. The guard detail changes every Friday «= that is exactly a week; new guards come. a ; i I an telling you -- I do not count:. one, two, etc. When I get to 365, it makes a year, and I begin again, When I get to 400 —— it was on the Sth of May -- and I began 2gain, because on: the 8th of May it was exactly 400 days. ne And, besides that, there are these numbers that I make from the threads. — But do you not make any other marks. No; well, I did one time -—- I put scratches on the door: the Ist of: Ol ad 6 Fr ken dike
104-10210-10029 Aw December, ete... 1/G5 equals 272 days; and then, there was another date:72/4'33 ~- it , equals 55 days. That is how. Well, perhaps we should return to cur discussion about the “lozsonol. I co not think that we have covered everything; wo did not asree with each other cverywhere. No you still insist that you were Secretary of the Konsomol orsaniration of the Second Chief Division. Tell me, as a friend to friend, wacre you were. What would I get out of it ({to tell lies)) Neither a minus, nor a plus. I would not get anything out of it. No, me, not you =<- I am talking about myself, about my biozraphy, ny activities; this would sive nec neither a plus, nor a minus. You know, we have spoken about the Zomsomol -- we have spoien about this matter twice; and I want to tnalx about this subject for the last time. The Komsomol does not operate the way you described it. a If a person were Secretary cf a Konsomol organization, he vould know more than the rank-and-file Komsonol member; ((but)) I an not asking to answer as a Secretary of a ({omsonol)) Committee. I do not remember the name of the Committee Secretary. Well, let us say, the Secretary of a Komsomol organization in the most important directorate in the MVD <= in counterintelligence, or the Second Directorate, as you want to call it ~- if he were the Secretary, j a a 3 4 as you say, for approximately a year, he would have had sone kind of contact with the Secretary of the ((Xumsomol)) Committee of the MVD, Simply hecause of his Komsonol work. vi
104-10210-10029 B. I tell you contact is maintained with tac Second Sirectorate by KOZIIN % “* and SONGLOY -~ those two nen. A. During the time you were Secretary of the Komsouol organization, how many Komsonol conferences were held in the ifVD. There probably were at least one durin: the year. B. There was, there was, there was... because I.... A. You probably selected delesates from your Komsonol organization, and you yourself as Secretary should nave attended it. B. Of course, of course. A. Well, tell me about this conference; you probably saw the Secretary and gave him documents on those waom you had sclected to be cclegates to . this conference, and so forth; a sreat deal of preparatory vork had to be carried out. B; I do not remember; I do not even remenber what was discussed at the conferences; of course, there were conferences or meetings of the ativ,= sonething.... A. Well, I an not asking what was discussed; I am just asking about the. procedure. . You say you do not remember the name of the Secretary of the MVD Xomsomol Committee; in my opinion, you should know; if you were the Secretary of the Konsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate you had to know. B. I do not know; why do uot I know. Because, after all, he was not a star in the sky. I siuply fulfilled social obligation; I just had to.... 4. No one said that he was a star in the sky, but you were the Secretary, | and you had to know him.
104-10210-10029 Hd tee at te A. For this ronson Qione, it is dictficult for ue to helteve that you were = Sceretary;. Ver; well, I will help you; we will bevin with this -— wint important event «= which you could in no way forcet or OVerloo!: =e £90k place tn the Nonsouol in 1953-1354 at the tine you were Sceretary: RB. I co not renenbor. A. I ask you asain; if yeu were the Secretary, you ::xust renenber this great event, B. I do not renenber it. A. Well, I will remind you ahout this creat event == it was just at the tine when you were Secretary, and it was quite inportant -- it was the Noscow City Xonsonol Conference in February 195-4, then delesates were elected from all k asonol orsanizations, including the MVD or the G5, whatever you waut to call it; and you, of course, as a Secretary had to take an active part in it -~ to be at the akxtiv meetinis of the lV5 Xonusonol, te select candidates, and perhaps even to make a speeck. Even if you did not deliver a speech at least you had to be there and to vote, etc. B. I do not remember. A. This was your last Konsomol position while you were working, in the HVD or anywhere else, and I think you should remember it. Well, as you told me last time, a Komsonol member can be any person of “ad tea td eneagsione abe - ~ what age. B. I will tell you right now — from the age of 14 they can be taken into the Komsonol. A. And to the age of: ...
104-10210-10029 Teadeetacacd ewe ll sin eipate isi aa Rete SATA, A, _ but from 1954 they began to live differently. To the ace of 27, Are you sure of this. Yes. Well, you can inagine that a Secerctary must know. Until the age of 2 27. ((Pause)) I will read you a pararraph from the Konsomol Rerculations for 1949. Why 1949. This was in 1953-1934.... 1949. he e Just before this, I asked you want important event took place in March 1954. I do not remeber this. Tiere was a Xomsomol Congress.. There were such... it was not the only one. .. At which new reguiations were adopted. It was not the only one, but it was the next one after 1949, the next one. From. 1949 until this Congress, they lived according to these regulations, : None of the regulations before 1949, after 1949, or after 1954 said anything about “up to 27 years of age". From Komsomol'skaya Pravda, 7 April 1949: "Anyone from the age of 14 to 26 can be a member of the VLKSM...." . Anotner Congress took Place, 30 March 1954: “Anyone from the age of 14
104-10210-10029 © ee ee nem ee to 26 can be a menber of the VLKS'I...." -< this was fn 1954, i ee Further, Rnere are other Rerulations, published in 'Noscow in 1333: “Anyone fron the age of 13 to 25 can be a nenber of the VLUSY....% a= this was wnen they chanyed the Regulations. Never in the histery of the Komsonuol, beyinning in 1913, have the Repulations anywiere said anything about “up to 27 years of ave"; it always was “up to 26" and tacn they chansed it to "up to 2S", \ Pg? Lb. (2G) I left for reason of age in 1956, ( 4 A. I do not want to arcue. You could have leit for reason of are when you were 27 years old; I do not at all deny this += I only an reminding you that yesterday you insisted that the Regulations say “up to 27, and that is all" I did not arfuc with you then; I sinply told you that it never was “up to 27"; it was “up to 26", And now... I do not know whai reason you had, etc.; I have on!y one question == did they make some sort of exception for you. B. They did not maxe any kind of exception for me. A. Then wiat is the matter. A secretary has to know <= richt What do you think -= the Secretary of the NKomsomol Organization of. the Second Chief Directorate; all of Soviet counterintelligence was working taere, and he does not know that, at the time when he was Secretary, a Komsomol Congress took place, and new Regulations were adopted. B. I do not remember. A. It was a big event; a Congress does not take place every yea. By the way, how often are Komsomol Congresses held B. I do not remember. | A. Well, just between us, do you think there is basis for me to believe
104-10210-10029 . The same-thing goes for the matter of nembership dues . that you wert a Secretary. Rene erore 1% I cannot tell you anything more about this; I sinply do not remenber, "YJ do not renenber" -~.< this is not the answer of a counter intellinence officer; one can answer “I de not renember™ to 211 questions. A counterintellicence officer is not God. He is just lie any other man em IVANCY, POTROV, SIDONOV =~ working in a Shop or sticwhere clse; the only difference is taat he is working in counterin:: llisence, and the other, in a shop. You know, if ye. were a Secretary of the Honsonol organization efa crutch factory, I would not ask you such questions, because the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of a cruteh factory could forget - but an enployee of counterintellisence, of the Second Chief Directorate, could not forget this, not hecause ne was Secretary or a Komsonol meaber, but hecause this is the daily work of a counterintelligence officer; to “now all of the Regulations, because he is working with people; he recruits, he develors, he arrests, ete.; he has business with the Xousonsi and with the Party every day. Right. Yell, he comes in contact with the Regulations and with other docuzents and instructions -- this is why I told you, "This is not the answer of a counterintelligence officer"; he should know nore than a simple kolishoz worker or a member of a feather shop. 3 : x 4 Ah, ah.... On what basis did you say, "Two percent, and that is all": Just as I renember it. I am telling you and answering you just as I renember.
104-10210-10029 A e ‘ ‘hat is the difference between entrance and meubership dues. . Only the entrance dues are written up there. Explain it to me. Let us tall: as friend to friend; today vou are saying, “Just as I Bers renonher it"; yesterday you did not say, "Just as I remember ft’; yesterday you said, "YT tnow (Cit was)) two percent cxactly". no I said, “Two nereent for the hishest paid"; there tas no one «io paid An i ' 29 opecks. ‘This is not true; there never was 2 sincle’ seale. The Nomsonol ((neaber)} always pays the sane as the Party, with the exception that in the latest new Nousouel tejulations, a new scale is provided. I will read it to you now. fais, again, is since 135%, In 1355, I was not in the Nonsonol; I was nowhere. Defore this, the seale tas rot written up in the Nonusonol Regulations; they paid the same way they paid in the Party -=- the same percentage, regardless of how much ((nay)) they reeeived, the same percentace, but they cid not Nout their Andry with tho sane comb" ((i.e@., the nercentaces varied within the scale, altnouyh the scales were the sane for both Xousonol and Party)). “9 Do you have the pre-1955 (Cilonmsenol)) Regulations. Do you have the Regulations for 1354 A scale is written out there. No scale was written out there. Without a scale, how much do they take: The very same anount; absolutely the same amount for both entrance and
104-10210-10029 A. A. —~ enc = The entrance ((cues)) —~ these are the first dues ((oaid)); you pay this waen you enter ((the orcanization)). ((Reads:)) "Tae financial resources of the Nonsomol consist of nember- ship dues and other incone. ; , we A Xonsonol menber who is at fhe sane time a candidate Party menber is: excused froa naynent of the ducs...." They pay to the Party. ((Continues to read:)) "...Entrance cues in the amount of tvo percent w are required of cach person upon entrance into the VLUS... So.... "...0f his monthly pay." Two percent from the others also. ((In English)) No, no. of Two percent a month... honestly... one minute.... Why entrance duces. AS soon as I was accepted in the Xomsonol, my first cues -—~ not for the month, but for entrance -~ was two percent, just as I. would pay per nonth. : Now I will show youvhere the scale is written. Maybe, in the new ((Regulations)), but I am telling you -- two percent, two percent. I do not deny that the entrance dues was two percent.
104-10210-10029 SB. And the nonthly, the nonthly.. S. hot true, not true. B. And the nonthly, two percent. Mat that is the new, the New Revulations, new curraency.... A. Kew currency. In the old Resulations, they too!: ((cducs)) the sane as for Party menbers. tee] cy Tais is new currency; before that, they paid tvo percent == the sane as for the entrance Guess; please belicve ne. A. Why are you declarins something that is untrue. ((SG; A and B speak at the same tine)) Do you want me to find the boot:let ((Regulations)) ané bring it to you. B. No; the entrance dues were tne same as the monthly dues «- two percent of the pay. A. What are entrance dues: B. The first dues you pay upon entering the Kousomnol. You pay it once; the usual you pay every month. { A. There were special instruction of the cc VLKSH on the collection of membership dues, which were sent to all Komsomol organizations, and. moe . a until the most. recent Regulations the scale was not given, except the , entrance dues -= two percent. - rs ee oe eee eee Here, in one ((set of)) Regulations, it is written: “Entrance dues are . taken upon entrance into the Komsomol -—- two percent of the monthly ealary. i ' From Komsomol: members who do not receive a monthly salary, entrance dues a Rete gree are. taken in accordance with the instructions of the CC VLKSN."
104-10210-10029 ++ hl eee B. 20 kopects; 20 kenee:s, as for military personnel. A. (1G). B, Just as the entrance dues, the membership dues -- two percent. A. I even would not want to insist on ((1 should not have to press)) this question, becuase the Secretary of a Komsonol aw animation should knov this as ne rows his five finzers, Of course, he could sorzet sonething, but it is nonsense to insist upon "27 years of ace" and sone other things (fsuch as this)). You know that even the lowest onsonol member knows such things, ((Pause)) Let us go back and tal: further about the xousomol. How and where were you actually removed from the “Nozsomol rolls before you were enrolled in the Kousoucl in the ‘IVD. B, I did not get off the Xomsonol rolls anywhere, because I was on leave; I was on the rolls of the Nonsomol ormanination of the IMP, in Sovetsk. A, What was the Xonsomol organization of the MRP in the city of Sovetsk alled. ¢ B. I told you that I do not renenber exactly, but it should have teen allied the primary Xomsonol organization of such-—and-such a nilitary unit. A. To whom was the organization subordinate. ((Pause)) Perhaps I should give you some leading questions so that you can better renember. . Let us start with this -~ you came to the Baltic area or Sovetsk; as So you said before, when did you get there> B. 1952, Summer 1952. A. Sumer 1952; what month. | | 2 |
104-10210-10029 About 4ucgust. About August. Yes. cian to what c:ind of wor’: were you assigned risht away I was assicned as a senior translator-interpreter of the MRP, Senior teanslatoraiatorureter. of the Navy Intellivence Point. Intellicence of the Fourth Navy Flect. Intellizence of the Fourth Navy Fleet. +a And what precisely was the Intellicecnce of the Fourth Navy Fleet called It was called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Flect. It could not have been called that. Please call things by their on names. What was it called. _ ? It could not have been called Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; It was not called that. It could have been called that anons the intelligence officers there. No, well, military unit, official, the military unit. Well, witt is the official nane/ Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; the Chief of Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet: the Chief of Intelligence of the Seventh Navy Fleet. What was the Directorate in Muscow called: GRU VUF. sandemibcbwiane te 6
104-10210-10029 4. Whaat does GRU mean B. Chief Intellirence Directorate of the Ministry.of the Navy. A, Ministry of the Navy, What is Intellicsence called in the Fleet + sapecee eerey ee trevor preteens It could not be called Intollisence of the Fourth Navy Fleet; there is @ncther nane. B, Of the Fourth Uavy Flect; nothins cise -- not the ministry, nothinr. A. Well, for exauple, imagine yourscli in Intelligence of the Fifth Navy Fleet, and you are writing a request or ictter to the Chief of the Intellicence of the Fourth Navy Flect; what is his title. fle has 2 certain position. B. Position: Chief of Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, Captain Ist Rank or Captain 2nd Rank sucheandssuch, and you give his position. A, Be more precise. B. This is the nost precise way. Officially, if you are corresponding him through open channels, you address him as Chief of lilitary Unit sucheand-such; this, by means of open channels, A. We are not talking about the militery unit. For what does the military unit have a number? '. B,- Well, this is for secrecy. . . a he Ee Taga Py ones he 0” beg deteg j sf 2 ’ - A. No; well, for what other reason. ((Pause)) Well, we will return to this; how is the Chief of Intelligence addressed: = oats
104-10210-10029 nm we » A, B. a. _ I went to the Commandant'’s Office. Y 2 Tae Chie! of Intellicence -~ that is wat he ras called. You said that you arrived in Aucust 1322; on orders to voon To Intelli:ence of the Fourta Navy Fleet. To whon did you report when you arrived there. I arrived at Daltiysk; I found the military unit «-— that is, of the rourth Navy Fleet; I presented my orders. Vell, now did you set there. Now did you find it Somcone probably told you how to cet there. Intelli:-ence Well, I asked people where the military unit was; it is a closed zone -- there were patrols. fe Well, you did not ask on the streot w= richt. Yhere else. I was lookxins for Nilitery Unit such-and-such. I was goinz to the Headquarters of the Fleet in Baltiyst. I arrived at Ualtiysk; there was the Comnandant's Office; there I as‘zed where lilitary Unit such-and-such was. Just a ninute; at the beginnings, I asked you how you found the place; you ansvered that you asked, etc. Now, where did you arrive. First, you went to the Commandant'’s Office. When you arrived in the city, where was the first place you vent. You know, you ask such questions which I answer according to how it is
104-10210-10029 * supposed to be; but, how ttoenms, I Co mot remomter; now it vas, how I. ot these, thon To oastiuwed... “irst of 211, I arrived in “alininzrad: the train socs to Kaliningrad fron Moscow . ] a + ay 9] ei ¢€ A. Well, let us dwell on this a little -- thon, you arrived frou lo net. in UnlSiysi., but.... B. MAaLinincrad; in Kalininerad, I transfervod. A. Letus °°: tvom the beginning; alricat You arréie:s in Naliningrad, not in "Naltiys':. For a countorintelliccnce officer, it is also inporiint where he arrivcd- either he arrived in Baltiys: or nalinincrad, There are tvo different cities; right. ¢ B. Right. garth thar tre iy wet tven 6 RR spre the fe Baleis oe : is 5 i ; A. Then, practically, you could not have arrived in Baltiys':... Bb. By train. No, no. A, xia You arrived in Kaliningrad? (Cin Enzglish)) Alright. B. Oh, you see how you judge. A, Well, how else can I. B. I arrived at the city of my designation, the city of Baltiysk, on orders to Intelligence of the Fourth Fleet. i And how did I travel there -- this....
104-10210-10029 + Pane eee 3B. A. B.. Listen, cor Iellov, I do not «ant to ast you a second question: I can tell you a= vou could not have arrived in Daltiys.:, zerlod. Teli me wy. Decause the train coecs not vo there, on that s spot. _ badd Taen way do you nave to wait until IY tell you that rou did not arrive in Ealtiys’:, cut in Naliningraa I arrived at Taltiys:; Nalininsrad is a transfer point. Very well, I nave arrived in the Far East... just « minute... in the Far Eest, I nads a stop at Xhabarovsk, then at Xonsonols':-naeAnur, then I made another stop in Pivan'; finally, via Sixhote-ilin', we get to Pyatisotia. One ninute... about SikhotesAlin' -~- ve will return to this question. Well, alright; you ask me questions, and I =m answering you; do you want to hear my answers (XG) you are knocking me dow, I am not knocking you down at all. Is it logical or not to ask a man, if the train does not arrive at Baltiysk, but arrives at Kaliningrad, Very well; you arrived in Kalininsrad. How did you cet to Baltiysk. Did you go on foot or by car: | Well, I got there by car by hitch-hiking. I asked how to get to Baltiysk, how to get to Baltiysx. Alright, you arrived. I do not know who I asked, but somewhere I asked how I could get to the headquarters in Baltiysk.
104-10210-10029 “33 &. e e A. You asiied ie tho: I asted; and L said I do not SNOW, ((XG; A and 3B sseax at the sane tine))- Maybe vou asked @ passerby, or porinans you asied at the Commandant s Office in Kaliningrad. Who knows- You should know better. Of course, wnen you left Moscow, they must have told you where the intellipence headquarters were situated, Baltiysic; knew that I had to get to Baltiysk. I had to take the train to Kaliningrad, and then from there it was only several kilometers to DBaltiysi:. Then, they must have cxplained to you that you would arrive at Kaliningrad, and then you would have to go to Baltiysi: wiere the headquarters are: and they were sure that you would cet there. Well, I could talx, and I had an outline. This is what I as talking about, You place me in a difficult position, algo, when you say, “Well, I arrived in Daltiysx." Right; I did not have to go to Kaliningrad, but to Baltiysh; and I got to Baltiys. If a person is going there by train, he has to stop before getting to Baltiysk. Ifa person. is going there by train, he has to BUbp hGznSe getting to Baltiys:. In Kaliningrad, in Kaliningrad. Wilke a!
104-10210-10029 © A, Are you sure of that i co 8B. Yep; I unde a stop in Nalininzrad. o% A. Anda train coes not ro to Paltiyss. S&S. <A train dots not ro to fhaltiys:. a. Does not zo thore; we, the tv vo of us, will remenher this. Fron Nalinincrad to Caltiys: ~~ you got there by aitehhiking, To waou did vou turn waen y> arrived at the Neadquartors of the Baltic Fleet. How did you find the Intellisence Nendquarters. B. I was not at the Neadquartrs of the Baltic Fleet, the Neadquarters of the Fourth Daltic Fleet. I sot to Baltiysk, gound the First Commandant's Office, and asked how I could get to Wilitary Unit such-and-such; I was told on what street it was: After all, it is not a larze town. A. Well, what was the name of the street. B. I do not renember, I absolutely do not remember. A. How many months were you on duty with Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet B, Four montns; somewhat over four months -- until the end of December, A. Were you in Baltiysk all the tine. B. No, in Sovetsk; the RP was in Sovetsk, not in Baltiysk. A. Then, what was at Baltiysk, the Headquarters. fa igre B. The Headquarters of the whole Fourth Navy Fleet, including Intelligence
104-10210-10029 of the Fourth Novy Flect was at 7: a cP a a aS ee The main base and Headcuarters of the Fourth Navy Flect was in Balti;ss::. A. Well, how leony were you in Paltiys: wien you arrived there and reported ' in; how much tine did you spend there until you left for the MRP B. Well, perhans it tool tu hour while they arranced for transportation; the auto tool. me to the HNP; this is several kiloneters away -- fron Baltiys:: to Sovets*. Approxinately how many ilometers me. of e B. Well, loo; Baltiys is on a spit, at the center of the spit. You cone dow fron the spit to the nainland, There Sovetsk is located. A, Well, is it about 10-20 kilometers away. B. No, its about 6 or S$ kilometers away; 10, not more. A. You are stre that you worked in Sovetsk. B. Yes; I now that I vorized in Sovetsk, I worked in Sovetsk, A. Haybe you have confused this with another city. B. No, no. A. Because I do not want you to say to me again later that you made sone kind of an error. B. Well, let us take a look at the map; I an not sure of anything right % . now; I am not sure of anything. . 3 Why? , , a an: Because you are twisting me around. : You are twisting everything around; you are twisting everything around. , date
104-10210-10029 A. A. Gd Well, what do you think <= a man who has worked in the GRU, in Intelligence, went to the Baltic Fleet, to Intelligence of the Fourth | Lam not twistines anythin around. Give ne a map of the Sovict Union, and I will snow you -- here, here is Paltivys:: here, here is Sovets:; and this is the place where I was. Well, I will show you a map right now, Very well; I will point out richt away where I was, Here is Yolunc 19 of the i! shaya Savetsiaya Entsiklonediya; this volune was approved for pu! iication, 15 June 1353, approximately one year after you were therc, Just a ninute... the spit, Baltiys::... and Primorsk, not Sovets. Here it is -= Prinmor'ye, Primors:... just a minute.... Primorsk, Pricors? Just a ninutc. This is Sovetsk. Taen, thy ~- in the past and today — _— you insisted on Sovetsk. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) ° Why I said Sovetsi:, I do not know —= Primorsk. Answer ne -= why did you say Sovetsh. . Why did I say so; In my nemory, Sovetsk... the city of Prinorsk. © A Ahan aed shaset Leet et wid my Navy Fleet, worked there for several months... and confused everything (("confused God's gift with scranbled eggs")). |
104-10210-10029 dha A B. A. B. Prinors':, Prinors':, Prinorsi:, Primors':; why did I say Sovets':. 4O you inow waiere Sovetsi: is I do not t:now; Prinors’: is ut the bezinning of the svit. Vell, I thini: you should answer my question -- vinere is Sovets For two years you have always said Sovets:, Sevetsh, Sovets:, Prinorsiiy Hray; Sovets:, Prinorsiiy ‘ray; lrisorst. Well, one nore question -=— froma where did you set "Trinorsxiy Kray"- Yell, this is a kyay by the sea, hy the sea -~ Prinors'’:iy tray; it is by the sca -- Prinorskly Mray. How was it, as you told me the last tine, that you reccived Ictters addressed to you. *Sovetsk, Prinorshkiy Eray; well, it means, the city... of Prinorsk, Primorstiy “ray... sonething.... The last time, I intentionally asked why Kaliningrad ws called Kalininer&d; I asked and answered the question. : The question I asked, Gvery schoolboy nows ~=— there is no Primorskiy Kray there and there never was. ° And then, an intellizence officer -- and besides that, a counterin-~ tellicence officer -—- a man who has graduated fron the Institute of International Relations, cannot.... Well, alright; why are you always pushing, pushing, pushing me on this ~e I do not remenber. Well, I nixed it up... well, Primorsk.... I told you right away, that is the place. that can I do. ‘
104-10210-10029 sw Tounantioned #}8 all of your werits << ny , you snowld know -—— docs not ‘inow where Ae yes and how he could reenive Istters in the city of Sovetst:, Drimorsiziy Hray.... B. Prinors:, Prinors. ee “4 wae o...khOR he Cid not wor: in Sovets:, and there never was a Primo y iopay ‘ ((4A gives I Yolune 12 of the Dol'shara Sovetsikaya Entsit:lonediva and asiis hin to read fron pare 422, on wWalininsrad.)) BR. ((Reads:)) “Nalininsrad, (until 1945, “Monicsberg) ~« a city, capital of “aliningrad Oblast RSFSR.... Zalinincrad became 2 part of the YSSR on the basis of the Berlin Conference of 1945.... On 4 July 1946, the city was given the nane of Nf, I. NALININ, one of the leaders of the Communist Party in the Soviet state." A. KALININ, Naliningrad; well. B. Kaliningrad. A, Kaliningrad; right. A. Now, read about “aliningrad Oblast. B. ((Reads:)) "Kaliningrad Oblast -- an oblast of the RSFSR. Established, 7 April 1946, on the ancestral lands of the true Baltic . oy Slavs..." 0, — oe cl Let te cae A. That is enough; we do not need any more; it is only general infornation.. B. Kake any conclusions you wish. .  Y was in the place which I showed you «<= Prinorsk; why I said Sovetss, _.
104-10210-10029 % A. Prftnorshiy Nray, I do not Ino. Do you iknow how nany settlements and toms called Prinors!: there are {n the Soviet Union I do not iu.now. You -do not i:nov. No, I have counted then. Vell. There are more than 70 in the Soviet Union; which Primorsk were you in. That which... that, that which, where the IMP of the Fourth Fleet was... not far from Baltiysk. “I can show you waicre it is right away. You told me that you wore in that Primorsk and in that Sovetsk which is located in Prinorskiy Kray; now I do not understand, because there is no Prinorsiiy Kray. Right. I told you, the city of Sovets!:, Primorsiy Kray; why, I do not know. I have.in mind this Primorsk, here; that is all. Let us talk logically. . Every Soviet man -- we will not mention counterintelligence, higher education, etc. -- who has graduated from high school probably will know that there never was a Primorskiy Kray in the West and that Kaliningrad Oblast was formed trom Konigsberg; and everyone knows why, and in whose honor it was naned. i just want to understand ~= are you playing around with me, or do you rae es a : 4+ enakithlat sd Wevnalite Dovid M8... 6 ih fwd,
104-10210-10029 A. Kaliningrad. Or how often were you there. really not know 2nd not iknow even tie ADCs Why should I play around with you wien you aave enous) cocunents and you always can find out and check it Way should I play around. ' What a strange questbn that ist I think that perhans I made a reat error in giving you the docunents -~ maybe we could have taliied without them -~ because last time you said the sane thint; you denied everything and insisted.... Vell, waat can I do, iz it was in my uemory -- as I said -- Sovetsk Prinorskiy Hray. I have in mind the Primors’: in waich the MRP was located. on ec neeeraeeeenemierenrcenene neyreeseer i eneannmnent eenn SAI a ar rma OCC ae Well, in what SEnEr cities were you while you were scrving there. ((Pause)) I was in Baltiys':. Others. Kaliningrad;: that is all. | | _ a How nany times were, you in Xalinincrad, before your permanent assignment there. - One tine;-I-flew in, in 1945; it was not Kaliningrad at that time ~~ it was Konigsberg. Konigsberg; when you worked in Baltiysk, how often did you visit Well, perhaps I went there one time. How much tine did you spend in Baltiysk itself.
104-10210-10029 a A. A. Well, how did they address them... well, “here ((Sovetsk)) *. ‘guch-and-such, ((B's full nare))" —- well, I made a mistake here; I am Iowas in [nitiys!: wien I arrivad there for the first tine: and aside from that I-vont over twice to sea Comzanderein-Chief GCLOVNO; that is allt And after that, where were you all the tine. I was in Primors:: a1] the tine, at the Lp, HCLL, tell me -= woat is Primors::; asov big is the town. It is an absolutely wrecked, absolutely wrecked town. It is a very snall, saall tow. It was a small sottlenent (maselenn-; vunkt); its people -— I have in mind Germans «=< were fishernen. Explain to me way, the last tine, you arcued with me -=§ “What are you telling me. I veceived letters at the city of Sovets:, Prinorskiy Kray!" Well, loot: -- in my memory, I have “the city of Sovetsk, Prinorskiy Kray"; that is all. Why? Yell, we will rctura to this letter. Like the rest of the military personnel, you received letters at the military unit; how were the letters addressed to you by your friends, relatives, parents. In different ways, to the Far East and here. Well, “here™ -- according to my memory, as I told you in ny memory... I do not renenber. My memory retains "City of Sovetsk, Prinorskiy Kray, Military Unit Ui
~ es 104-10210-10029 a ‘ * tellin: you I had Prinors:: in mind. A. Way Gid you say.... 7 B.. I co not know, because I do not renenber; I renember it as I said, A. You do not remouber waich military unit B. I do not remonber, A. You yourself told ae that you made an error; you do not.... B. Well, way. ‘Because I imacdiately showed you that place; I had in mind "City of Sovetsk, Prinorsiiy Kray" -- the city of Prinorsk. A. There are many cities on the map, and you can point out a lot of things. j I told you that, in the Soviet Union, there are more than 70 places naned Prinors:. ((in English)) You seée, there is a Prinorss on the Baltic, one near Arknangelsk, one near ii¥raans:, one on the Black Sea, one on the Xzov Sen, one on the Caspian | Sea, one on the Pacific Ocean... there are Prinorsis everywhere near ‘the sea. } B. In 1952, there was one Headquarters of the Fourth Navy Fleet, waich was in one city, in Baltiysk; and the IMP, which was subordinate to. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, also was only one and was in Prinorsk.... so: ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) . ee ee eee a eee A. You are smart enough to make up a premise and imagine how it was — no one can take this away from you. ° ((Pause)) Well, give ne one example when you received a letter, let us i say, in Prinorsk, and so forth —— a letter from your parents or your A: a > og
104-10210-10029 ’ eeperte ats. Ss por . 3 A, B. ee Girl irlend: now did they address the lctter to you I IX do not renenter. What address did you give then. City, then military unit; it is possible to write just “Tilitary Unit so-and-so", taicn to so—ind-so. Well, we have come to the question that I wanted to asi: you w= the Far East. And the sane soes for Sovetskay2 Gavan’ -- "Sovetsi:aya Gavan’, or just “military Unit 30176", There is a certain rule --— there is no “either... or". \ (Qwhich was it — )) Both the city and the military unit were indicated, or only the military unit without the city. I received letters addyvessed both to the city and the nilitary unit, and Simply to tho military unit. And what recsulations were in force. » During the war, during the war.... We are not talsine about wer time, but.... Oh, no.... We are talking about 1352, when you were in the Baltic area. .., 1f you want to talk about the war, we can go back to the war at anoter time, and I am sure you will not be able to answer ne if we talk about the war. ¥ did not take part ((in the war)); I do not- know what kind of a questior you would prt te me.
104-10210-10029 g A. _~ te A. - eee ak, Now you are saying that you did not tate nart in tho wer: ww 3¢ a! on, 2 « mei om you said caat near Tuanu, yor had such a Ticht, tant tie fernans... ...2n this listance, Tua siamily tabiing without any on: ancer or oilenne. ane | . -. oo folly, vay le anory bball ee of ar + You are doing yoevr I do not think: there are any hooks. Oh, yes; uy God. Loo: at your dvestions. Sust a ninute: gor tro davs, I have boen Listening to you, and you always insist upon "Sovetsi:, Feimoreiiiy leary" I thinks that one of us is crany. I an not crazy, hut maybe I soon will te; I have been (CAG; 4 and B speal: at the sane tine)) I have read nothing; the brain needs training, exercise. . When I asx a question, you listen. Of course, 12 you are coing to sit there and think up nev stories — what to answer to a question and so forth —- of course, you will be at your wit's end. for
104-10210-10029 A, Det when Todo net renenher, I tery to raveaner (C14). ‘ Tou aadid carlior that the distance Ivoa Daltiys’: to Sovetsi: is 10-15 "zt wacn Sevetsi: is not noar Lultiys: at all... % 3 - te q° ” ioll, Primors:, Prinorsk! wats if the natter. foo Well, lool e= if you are soiny to count 19-15 kilozneters, and if it is 25... you will ask, “how is that." I nave not tho slichtest intention of arcuing about two, ten or five kiloneters, 2:solutely none. Tais is not ny problen, because I... I understand; you are looking at it from the point of view that I said Sovetsk, anc you loo: for Sovotsi:, hut there is no Sovets:; so, you gar, “What is ne sayinc." I do not have to look ~~ I know where Sovetsh is. Tais is my next question -- there is a Sovets: in Nalingrad Oblast; nov, yeu tell me vhaere it is: you should t:now and there wis an intelligence point there. Tell me about it. ((Pause)) I do not know. A man who has worked in the Intellicence of the Fleet, in Kalingradsk Oblast, if he insists that he was in Baltiysk, Kaliningrad, Sovetsk, -—- _ _ although he changed it from Sovetsk to Primorsk.... C(4G; A and B speak at tne same tine.))
104-10210-10029 n Sovets% in ts, He would Cniow... wiere Sovets': also, Dbeem:se y-. Taen way do you confuse na you confiusing me. confusing yvoursel I an not confusin;y you; I do not mow, I do not !:now. CCXG; 4 and B sneats at the sane tine.)) ~..Tuere is a Sovetsi; if you worked there, taen you must know; nov, s. explain to me where it i I do not t:novw. I an tellinz you that, in my menory... Sovets':, Primorsiiy Kray. Way do not I see Sovetsi: there. Well, I had Prinors’: in mind, ~~ not on the spit, but There... there... this place... here it is before the spit.... | If we consider that you were working... or that you held the position of senior translator-interpretcr] of the Navy Intelligence Point... well, I even will inasaine for a monent that you were in Primors:... then you . o should linow precisely that thera is a Sovets: and there was also a Navy Intellicence Point there. ' Even if you were not there, you should know this through correspondence-. because these points are connected somehow. You do not have to tell ne my fairy tales; please do not tell me tales. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy ‘Fleet, in August 1952 == when I avrived, had only one single point; if there were any others before that, then they were elininated. Altiwaswm . There was one in Rostock,. Sassnit¥, Svinenunde »©» 211 of them were shut down. fon Meta ee 6 meme cie =
104-10210-10029 &. Wo will talt: abewt Svinenunda and Sassnit? —— you were thers and then you said that you nad not been there. If we have to, we can. return to that question, also. I cannot understand why you should be nervous. 8B. Why nervous. Because I an in prison; recause all I can sec is hooks, hoo:s, hoos, 1 nools, 190s, hoos, and a creat desire to mate m2 cout as suilty:; Lord knows, creat accusations are being levied acainst ne. A. I do not went to make you out guilty; no cne wants to -- you vourself do this. B. Only that way, only that way..... A. Well, how ean it be believed, wien for two years you vere saying —< Sovets::, Sovetsk, Sovets:x; 10 or 15 iiloneters from Daltiys:; that is ail. B. Very well; show me that map once nore. A. I do not sec any reason to ¢o so; I do not want to show you Sovetsk. ‘Ye will come to it, and I will show you; I will bring you a large map. Your statenent that these intellivence points were elinimted ~- even if they had teen eliminated, they were there, and it is an established . fact, and no one makes a secret of it, B. What was there. Where were they: They had only one point. UA. You tell ne where. a eketes Vitor dteee If you say that there was one point, then you were not there -— that is what the question is about. { B. I have nothing to say to you, because I am telling you the way I es
104-10210-10029 . , renauser it, the way it was lelt in mr aend. , mand “AS Uell, you see, perhaps anain you will say that Ioan puttin: out hoo':s for you -- today you say, ..."Tue way I remenber"; yesterday, you insisted, that “It was Sovetsi:! that is final.", and that you received letters, “Sovots!:, Prinorsiiiy iray". B. Risht, ricat. A. Today, we xnow that there is no Prinorskiy ray, and you were not in Sovets::. Tnen, how an I to.... B. For me, for me... even thouvh you showed me the map... for me a “Sovets:, Primorskiy Kray"; why I do not know, I do not ‘t:now. A. You know very well that in tloscow Oblast -- ((there is)) Moscow City, in Leningrad Oblast -— Leninsyad, in irasnodar uray -- "rvasnodar, in Ryzan' Oblast \@= Ryazan’, in Kaliningrad Oblast -- ialiningrad; there neyer was 2 Prinorskiy Kray there. ZB. And maybe you are confusing me on purpose. A. How. How for cxanple: B. Well, give me that map; I will show you now ~- beeause Sovetsk is near, close to the sea, . adi. . &. (€(Close)) to what? ; B. Well, Sovetsk... well, where our URP was situated, on the shore of the i sea... ((Pause)) 2 Well, why are you sniling. fg: : H . .¢. § , A. What else can I do. a eet 4
104-10210-10029 B. You have connlctely mixed ne un <= alri-at: thint: wiat you wish; I 2 cannot, I cannot, I cannot do sar SYLnS , ‘> taink tuat if we will talk it over tovether and try to find a conuon Lanvuace, I thin: that.... . = B. J an applyinc ali of the stren7th that I have left, although there is oniy a little left. Ae (16) B. Well, yes, txe I have lost 3G, 40, 50 pounds at a tine. A. Well, I co not think that you thint: that Ioan to blane. B. ‘No, no, no; in no case do I blane you personally. A. Then, one of the reasons you have lost ((weicht)) -- ((althouch)) you (Cany)) nave not lost -#-} ig that you have boen saying that you were in places where you were not. GQ. This is one of the vonderful reasons _: (Cin English)) attitude. "A, I thints it is much Letter than there, in the uecnerLand. B. I have not done time there; of course ((it is worse there)).... (Claugus) A. Are you sure that you have not done tine. B. ((Pause)) This is the strangest qtestion. A. For me, it is not strange at all. — becuase, when you speak with | : someone, and he cannot say where he was znd so forth... he was somewhere, - 4 right: ni H B. I am telling where I was; a man is free, free to make a mistake. iid s eS Erne Yee SEGRER—
104-10210-10029 + | laeaathal And to renenber... aS vou wish... on... I do not remeuber anything == neither the Regulations, nor the Party. I do not want to renenber any Resulations. I told you the last tine that, if you do not renenber your Party card number, I would cuestion where you were a Party member -= that is truce; . Aidin: Ian telliny you onenly, and I ni: not : it. uOY 2 8 ee Richt, richt awe Lecuase T Anve no neoor; I cannot Shov sy Party card. Yf I snowed you my Party card, you would say, "Oh, you can write waatever you neccé" -— that is way I never can prove ecnurthing to you, if you do not want to helieve... I want to believe, but I cannot. ¢ ‘ I never can prove it to you. I want to believe... s . AN on ta + 1 o + 51° 2.3 + 8 Listen; do you really tnin: that I only broucht the DSol'sh Sovets 47 Entsii:lopediys to nut you in a dicfieult vosition -- for example, with Sovets: or Baltiys::. I brought it for one pSurpose, and that was <- to shor you that you vere naking an orror; it is not the way you are saying it is. If you nad been in Primorstiiy Tray, then my question vould have been -- in the Far East, or sonewhere cls. ((XG; A and B sneak at tne Sane tine)) : There was never a Prinorsixiy Xray in the Baltic area. _. Ch oc rprgeerte ee sa Ma I£ you had made an error about sone village (( Shory-Yery" «<-j i.e., an j 4 imaginary “somewnere”™)), then I would not question it; but when it is i comes to taling about a whole oblast —- waich everyone ‘:nows about, § which was German territory, which since 1946 after. the death of KALININ _ has been called Kaliningrad Oblast, but you call it Primorsxiy Kray —-
104-10210-10029 2 ne ee . . and wien, 22 this ronson alon>, Io asve rotuenct t9 a , tines, and I breught the cnorelonedia to show it to yeu: I ald not compile tt ((the encyclosrdia)). 3B. One minute, one uinute... maybe ee Todo ber ee well, ahyhe the letters wire addreresed, 'Sovets’: Tyr tae Sea (Sovots': se tasys'tiy) - or the LL l:nows what. a. I do pot know; you were thare; Towns not: but, Iovas, I ‘snow p P é 4 : how I reecived lotters. B. I do not venenber, I co not venember, I do not remember; thin: waat you will =. I do not renenier, as I told you. A. It cannot be so. Again, you... porhans you tried -= I do not hnoy e~ perhans you really thin: that that is the way you wrote it = "Sovetsk By the Sea" = like that; but if you lool: at the map, there is another Sovets. . Near Avihlangelsk there is another Sovetsh, also, by the sea. If you write “Sovets: Dy the Sea", the nest office will never find it; there has to be somethin: other ((than that)). 3B. I do not ronenber, I do not ronenber. ‘ I do not imow why I remember, as I told sou, “Sovetsi:, Prinorsi:iy Mray". I do not imovw. A. One more littic question -- I want you to tell me nore or less precisely if you really were in the Baltic area, and for how long. B. I told you that I arrived there in August, and at the end of December . . A. Do you remember what you said earlier — hov long. were you there, and how you were there. How do you explain the discrepancies. F ald
104-10210-10029 . sand AE Ane Harlier, at one tine, sou saic vou were there more than a year: then, ' No, I never went to the movies. Ido not rewenber how much I said, wiat I said -~ I do not renenber. you said you were there almost a year; then, § nonths; now, you «ny a § you were there Zour and half nontnhs. I want you to tell me for the last time wicther you were there or not. Iwas there, in the summer; I arrived apnroximately in August and was there unti: ‘1c end of December; at the end of Decanber, to ny thinkins, £ leit for Uuossow, in 1952... at the end of December 1322, Yell, waat was interesting there, wien you were in Kaliningrad. What do you renember about Kaliningrad. What tsind of life was there at that tine in 1922. Well, I did not live there. Se Surely you were there. Well, I passed throuth. Perhaps one tine I went there with the fellows -for 2 drink on Sunday... and wnoen I was leaving. Well, Lf you went for a drink, waat particular thing night you remember. What co the sailors usually recommend to drink in Kaliningrad. I do not know, I do not know, I Bo not know, I do not know. What is there.... I drank vodka. Did you ever go to the movies. cari WAR ort) otek en Ne Well, what == you just went to Primorsk and did not go anywhere:
104-10210-10029 Fs she A. wW dhs Waat -- co you think Iwas there in Sovets': for years Well, if one is to bolieve tuat you were thera for four and a half months, you could not have spent all of your tine at the tse. “anes I did spend all of ny time there. You were thers day and nicht Yes, that is waere we lived. I understand that you lived there; on your days off, you must Aave gone soncwhere, right. You just cannot sit around Like that all tae tine. J I do not remecber; well, maybe... it seems we went to Uelenorradsk, ‘ x a resort town on the coast. We stayed there ((at the hase)) all the tine. Euy, anyway ,you inow e= I thin: that I was right wien I said Sovetsi. YWhy’. Because this Tittle town could not even b= on the nap, on that man; it could not be; it is too small for this -- there is no population there; ttle settlenent. jos there is al I do not know wiy it was called "the city of Sovets:," a settlenent. For your information =- of course, there is in Kalinyrad Oblast a city | called Sovetsk, but it is not 2 settlement and it is not 2 small tor: there are no other settlenents by the nane, Sovetsx. I have in mind that Sovetsk which lies on the approach to the spit. There is none —~ that is my ansver to that question, without even thinking it over. May I see that map once again: This map «- I will show you. i] a t
104-10210-10029 Be. There is a Sovetsk. - oo pos 2703 4 birser one. a ond == Towant to show you the nlace. I do not want to show it to you, ceonuse -- every tine you tell ma... 7 for exennlo, today poe you said, Sovets:, ((but)) lrinore:." 7 minute -— do not sa: tint, co .ot say that. that was Say Yell, you the nan, jou will yy ay it: T made a mistaiie acain «= it was not Primors:", but you will say it is somethin: else, Let us leave it just as it is. You see... you see how you anproach this question. Well, how elze ean I approach this question. You are suart cnoush! As soor as I shoved you, you immediately said, “I am sorry; I do not know hey I made the mistake. Primorsk." When I told you that there is a Sevets anc a Primors": in Nalininevad Oblast, then later -=— after 15 ninutes -= you begin to think: “Neverthe less, this place is Sovetsk. Such 2 little place -= I do not now why it is called a city. Not another." You show me a map; on this mav this Sovetsk is not to be found; I point out -- here, here is the spit... Baltiysk; right there... this is Prinorsk; if it is net Sovets:; it means I was mistaken, that is all, Then, I was right; you are confusing me. There is 2 Sovetsk. ohh
104-10210-10029 $ . ‘Co. Taen, I an right: then, Ioan eight: you are confusiny ma. A. I an not confusing you at all. ae I did not cs you to look at the map and say, “Z na sorry: it was not Sovets:, but Prinors:." I cid not ask you about that. If you were there, you should ‘mow; you should t:now Sevets:, Primors, Daltiys:, avd Zelenocrads:. B. As if, for the four months that I was there, I wes traveling all over the place, studying the nani... It absolutely was not that ‘ind of work. A. Just. for that reason alone, you should now that... if one is to believe what you said, you vere in Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet... for this reason alone, you must know. If you had said another reason =~ that you were doiny something else —~ I would not even ast:; perhans you might not even tiave heard of these toms. But if you wonked there, you must tmnow -- because all o2. these cities had and have a direct relation to Navy Intelligence. B. Why do you say that et Intelligenee is no counter intelligence; it isn t counterintellizemce; i: is not concerned with questions.... ‘ A. This is daily work, daily wort; you do not necessarily have to be there ((to know about these places))... because you are sitting and working... today, someone or other comes from a Navy unit; tomorrow, someone comes from some other place... you go some other place for a couple of days, and so on and so on... B. The fellows did not go anywhere except to Baltiysk; they did not go anywhere. sone bP Then it nust have been 2 poor Navy Intelligence Point, that they —Reeeey———
104-10210-10029 wemeamemenemianemen were not coin: anythins. : fi B, But the tosis were changed, absolutely; there was only one tasi «= the preparation of agentenanned observation nosts azainst the event of war; that is all; there was nothin: more; there vas no Avent werk at all. ‘AL. Well, if you are talkin: abot. work, I thint we. vill return to it ina little while. If we are to believe what you said kefore, then vou did net even say anytaing about waat you did in Intellivenee there, that you were occupied with entirely different matters there. B. Well, and it was because I was occupied with this, tiaat I decided to get out of the GRU. Let us take a little brea. te e B. May I snoke. A. Well, think it over a little... after our rather loud talk of today. Pg B. I oaly asi: that you forgive me: maybe I... you must understand me as man to nan... maybe sonetines I get aroused, perhaps raise the tone of my voice; well, please, do not pay any attention to it.... A. As I told yeu -- I an not angry at all. B. ...Because this does not relate to you personally... ((it is my}) i r s. i nerves, or the devil knows what. “A. I fully understand that. Maybe sonetimes I ask “interesting” questions and I try to get the answers. It is not ny task to make you nervous.
em a tte eee ee - . os so ose Tt is vory ditticult, ceon Foro nc, to tals with you, trcause you make such mistkics in ansverin:, quostitns vhica any sehoolhoy can answer. Io still cannot yet it in «sy sind, her sich 2 ooreson as you, with such ¥ Eos es re i a 5 5 - Trinersiiy jiray anc taliningrad position and status, docs not ino Oblast. Why Explain to ne BRB. Well, I do not t:now, I do not ‘inot. Iam telling vou as I renesher it -- Sovets:, Primorsi:iy Hray -- the devil snows wy. Right ((you are rizht)). A. Well, let mo as one more small question before you finish your ciparettc, KALININ died.... ors BRB. Well, if they asi: mc in whet year NALININ died.... A. I an not asking wien NALININ died. It is not necessary to renember, I vould not ask another man this question. Inasmuch as you said that your father was 4 Minister, who held a high position, etc., apparently he respected "grandfather" KALININ. __B.__Yes.. . - oe A. Without doubt; whenKALININ died, were you at the funeral -- you yourself. 8. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember. set Aes Serer ee | A. Your father probably was at the funeral.... oad ot ln Pod tatesetie ily tina an bla oe
104-10210-10029 *. aie B. F A. 4 A. -..cecause his position recuires it so. not necessary: maybe ho was not, but more Likely he was. 4S you said, your father had many awards, ctc. You tinow taat all people in dich places in tan Soviet Union, cspecially in Moscow, and especially Ministers, receive their awards fron the hands of the Presicont. And before HALININ, Mikhail Ivanovich, died he, of course, shoo': hands with your father. And probably, when iALININ dies, your father said: "I an sorry ete... the man died... ile was President for a long time; he was respected by all, by those wno like the Soviet Union and by those who do not like the Soviet Union." He was froma peasant stock, a simple worker, Vell, if we look at it even from this point of view, it is nossible that there was a family conversation: "Thanks, that at least one thins was done -<- they named Kaliningrad Oblast in memory of KALININ". I do not remenber. " Well, I do not insist that it was that way, but it might have been. I_can_tell_y.ou_more—~—_I_knew-his_niece—very well. To Then the more so; in that case, there may have been discussions, perhaps : on this subject. _. «= No, there was no discussion on this subject. Well, I do not insist that there was; but there could have been, right. . | . 2 | +
104-10210-10029 . ‘3. Yes, yes ‘A. And, of course, as I said, it is difficult for me to understand why you do not knew about such 2 simple thins as Naliningrad Oblast and Prinorsiiy Hray. I cannot understand it at all. You told us that you traveled over the Soviet Union extensively, coing on TOY's and so forth. You know that counterintesllicence officers know the territory very well, even if they do not work in it. Then, Kaliningrad Oblast is 2 good place for agent training and for everythin: . It is forzer German territory. Qne can brinz those people, put them in Ger:itn houses or sonething like that. B. ((%G)) A. ¥e will have a break for a few minutes. (CBRDAX)) There; I have just obtained the Adninistrativno~-Territorial‘noye Deleniye Soruznykh Respublix, published in 1924. Tnere is Kaliningrad Oblast and it also is written that there is a city of Sovets:k and a Sovetskxiy Rayon. If you are still uncertain where it was etc., read, starting from the ‘ top. -B. ((Reads)) "Kaliningrad Oblast ~~ capital -- Kaliningrad... Name of wt Rayon — Sovetskiy.... A. Further, further; look down below.... B. Here is the “city of Sovetsk". ' ; [ i : ‘ nS
104-10210-10029 *. > . A city of oblast subordination. B. Of oblast subordination. It is subordinate to Waliningrad,. 4&4. To the Malinincrad Oblast Soviet. B. Sovetsk.... A, And what there is of rayon suborcination. B. These are “tom types (gorodskozo tipa)". A. Bur tier, there are small towns waich are in Kaliningrad Oblast. B. Please show ne that map again. ((After looting at the man:)) Here is Baltiysl:, rigat. And Sovetsk was from Baltiysk... this was on the spit... before the spit. | It was here sonewhere... But it could be... I tell you I remember Sovetsk, Prinorskiy Xray. Because... what is it... For what... I do not know. A. Here is Sovetsk. ((A shows Sovets: on the map)) . B. No, no, no, no; in no case ((not that Sovetsk)). Here, right here. Here, here, here ((shovs another location)) Directly... see... at the beginning of the spit, at the very beg inning of the spit; here, right here. ; 7 - Maybe I have Primorsk in mind... Lord knows... din ny memory, it is i Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. | The devil knows.
104-10210-10029 ‘Maybe, about this Prinors’:... I do not I:now. This is waere our liP was. Here is a small, small... it is not oven a city; it is a snall, small =. settlement. A. There is no other Sovets«. B. Well, well, it was there. Why in cy menory -- Sovets«, Primorskiy Nray; I co not i:now. In no c.se (AG) Sovetsk. I think that.... w. oi . 5B. No, no, no; in no case, this Sovetsi:. It is at the very beginninz of the spit. Baltiysk is on the spit, and this is at the beginning of the spit. A. What do you think - it is difficult to make a mistake between Sovetsi and Prinorsk? Right. B. Well, way. Loox, here also is a Pr iaors’. Well, I do not i:znow way it stayed in my memory that it was Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. The devil knows . c : : A; I make the conclusion that it is possible that at one time you could have visited there.... B. There was no reason -- only when I was at that MRP. - A. «...Kaliningrad Oblast and so forth... But everything adds up to ((the conclusion)) that your knowledge is so | emali and you cannot. confirm in. any way that you had worked there. You know absolutely nothing about it, even about the existence of i ° : ‘ * ‘ i. Mme
104-10210-10029 of Halininurad Oblast; I cannot understand this at 21l. Iocan only say, speaking with a man wno Lived all of his life in tae Soviet Union, in Moscow and in other cities... and the ((Laliningrad)) Oblast has been in existence since 1346... he makes such a nistake «= Prinorskiy sray -< waen it never was called that. I do not know why in my memory... I tell you that I remember: Sovets:, Prinorskiy xray. Cut why. The devil i:novws. © But I have in mind that little place at the very besinning of the spit, at the very beginning of the spit. Of course, the spit is there; it has not wandered off anywhere. It still has not washed away; it was there, and it is still there. But, of course, you must understand, it is difficult, quite aifficult, to believe that you were there, when you cannot say for sure where you were, Well, I an telling you where I was. You renenber, of course, that you nentioned to me that Baltiys: formerly -was called Pillau.... Pillau -- "this is the former Pillau.” .-.And Sovetsz; you did not say exactly how.... I even do not know what it was called. It was a Gernan name. Well, you did not tell me exactly what this was called. You thought that formerly it was called so and so; this means you have am aM dake vel in mind some town... This Sovetsk had a German name.
104-10210-10029 « , 3 Tne tum itseli was ravared, : Judzing by overytaing, it was a larce fishini settlement. is \ A. Well, after the death of Mihail Ivanovich HALININ, ths city of v ; ¥ ‘co owee aned ial Snes a s OF ; ees “Yoniesber:; wis renamed ualiningrnd, on 4 July 1343. The city, of course, is quite larcze. : But, of course, in 1345, there «as alnest nothinz there, B. It was wreened w= JT remember the cit: wall -- but the plant remained. a. Do you resenhbor -=— when you were there, wint kind of newspapers were ‘published there, and wiat kind of newspapers did you read there RQ. Well, we read our om paper, waich was the Fleet newspaper, - A. What wes it called B. I do not even remenber the nane. In the Far Bast, it was called tin Strarhnea Todiny (Cn Guard of the 3 . Fatheriani), but I do not knov what it was called here. A. Taat, too, is quite strange. B. Well, I do not remembor the nane; I do not renmenber. A. Well, what kind of newspapers did the Oblast Party Committce and the Oblast Soviet publish. F B. I do not know, I do not know; I do not renenmber. : : OO . é A. Well, I think that if you were there, you should remember something; 4 i right: Understand uc, I do not rementer; I do not. remenber, ci. eptensin fe] e
104-10210-10029 irst of all, tt wes lony avo, and secondly, I ens tactre for a very ; 3 Suort while; IY did not live in Halininzrad, A. “I did not say that you lived thare. 5 It is not necessary to live in Malininerad. bot They sond the newsyvaner all over cio oblast, to the military, to everyonc, RB. We veecived the nilitary nowsoaner, We @id not have to subserfibe in order to receive tno newspaper. A. Even if you zo to the “Lenin Roou', it could be there, on the tables; it is not necessary to read it. B. Pravda, Jevcostiya, laying there... and the Fleet nawspever. A. What kind of Fleet newspaper. BE. I do not venonber what it was called; I do not remenber. A. You were in tho Far Nast earlier, but you renenber that name -» Na Strazhe Nodiny... “e B. Well, I was there for a long time; Na Strazhe Rodiny. A. ...But this was later, and you do not remenber. B. I do not remenber. A. Believe ne; it is difficult for me to believe that you were there, in a that situation and in that position, at the Intelligence Point, in Intelligence, etc.... B. A man arrives; he never was there ((before)); should he bother about the oblast, about what kind of newspapers are published there. I did not know anyone in the group; I absolutely did not know anyone, a ie
104-10210-10029 ~ not one man. 3 A. And, again, your statement that you did not “nov anyone in the group indicates that you were not there. 3. FF said that, before that, I did not now anyone; it was an absolutely new group for iae. 4. Who was the Chief of Intellircence. B. I do not remenber; 2 colonel... I do not renenbear his name. Whon do you renenber from when you were there, from anon> the counter= intellicence officers. B. I did not know any of the counterintellizence officers; I did not know one of them. A. But you snew that they existed... or did you. B. Well, in general, I knew =~ there has to be a Special Departuent (Osobyy Ctdel), how else: , A. When you vere there, did you ever have occasion to meet counterintelli- gence officers. B. No. A, You know that most of the employees of the organs of the KGB... ((they are)) specially ((from among)) those who are nore or less faithful ae Komsomol nembers or Conmunists..:.-- ca phe eee ees a meal a ' They tave been, frankly, put on the hook == that is to say, recruited j into work for or cooperation with the organs -- and then, many of then {- / became staffers of the organs; I have ((this)) in mind ((when I ask a d you)) — when you were in the Baltic, while working in Navy Intelligence, | tS did you have any connection with counterintelligence? ‘ Fa i : ’ : . . 7 .
104-10210-10029 A. ‘Well, when you went to eat with someone... or you talked with him on a ‘There must have been some such person. Absolutely none; anc in the Par East, csere J was for 2 lon tine, I had absolutcly no connections. * . ! Well, if you did not, you did not have; but I think: it would be loyical for you to remember the name of the Cnief of Intellisence. I do not renenber, I do not renember. And what about the Seputy Chic? I also do not renenber. Well, name someone with whom you worked. : I remember... whos There was Capt 3d Rant: DENCHINKO; there was an officer named BULAT., What wes his rank Senior Lieutenant: there was also a cantaine-lieutenant... I renenber his face very well, but I do not romember his nane «- it seems (Cit was)! YELISEYIV, but there is a bic question ((about this))... I Go net renenber; but I remenber those two nanes. myer You remember DEMCHIESNO, BULAKY, and you are not sure about YELISEYrY. Yes. . Did you have any friends with whom you were pals while you were there. Well, what kind of friendship’... —~ 7 oO Bs Fel bg oo 8 a I was there only four months. day off or nad a drink with hin... me eter
104-10210-10029 "B. One minute... BULA cid not live with us; he lived separately because he brought his wife. [ery this one «— CapteLt YOLISZIYCY -< also broust his wife with hin. pew Aan DENCHENNO was a bachelor, and lived at the hase, ag I did; then, there wes 2 licutenant, a Gark fellow -— ho Looled Like a cypsy —— To do not renexbor his name; we Lived in the same roo; ae GEMCIENNO, th: Tiautenant Vide ae & I. p n I renenber no other uances. ° A. Did you Live alone, or with someone. B. No, there were several of us Living fo. roon right cera at the hase. A, Wita whom were you living. B. DENCHENXO was in the same roon; then, this Lieutenant.... A. Well, did you live with them in the same rocn B. In the sane roon. A. DEMCHENKO and who else. B. The lieutenant, also; I do not remember his name. A. Well, then, it is as if to say you had no special friends. B. I did not have any, because it was for a short time. A. Well, did not they give the son of a Minister a separate roon: B, There were none; there was no possibility. We lived right there where our work room was... it looked like it was an attic..; you could say it was the third floor; the building was a ere Mansard—ty pe . :
104-10210-10029 2. Letus becin sith that -- wien you cane there, row reported that you “had arrive; waat sind of work were you assigned. ©. Senior translatoreinterpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point. a. You cane to the RP; where was it ~-— Sovets: or Prinors’: LB. Sovets:, Sovetsi:; it in Ssvets!. A. You should thin: of sonetainsz else, because there is no Sovets'. B. Well, I cannot tell you the nane, but I renenber it was Sovets!:, rigat there at. the end of the spit. A. There is no Sovets: at the end of the spit. No Sovetsk is written near Daltiys':, or anywhere else there. The old name could not be Sovets:k; and as its new nance, it was never ealled that. B. The nev name was Sovetsk. A. I understand that it could be Sovetsk only under “he ncv name «= because it could not have been Sovetsi under the Germans. e But now I an faced with a dilemma, and there is a grent question -—-— let us say that you cane to this place, that you were assicned as a senior intelligence officer.... B. A senior translator-interpreter. A. ...Translator-interpreter at the EIRP in the city of Sovetsx, several kiloneters. from Baltiysk. re ie gg wah anit ‘But on the spit, there is no Sovetsk. B. At the beginning of the spit, there was some kind of Sovetsk. > e There was no such place.
A. Well, I do not i:novw. t is sech a snall place, that nerhans it is not man; this map.... Of course, I co not want to declars, or I do not have a map vith wll of the noints, csnecially of understand Tnere is no such place these; there ig nothing e I cannot tell vou anythin: inove: I absolutely co more, I tell you -- it is therc, at the very bezinnins snall sottlenent called Sovets:; that is what is Sovetsiz: waat can I do I do not know way “Sovetsi:'; I do not know. Well, I have to know W- what was the add letters you received Well, maybe I am not telling you the truth; perh but I tell you asain that I renenhber “"Sovetsk", “Primorsiy Mraz". Why . I have in mind this dace richt at bec inning “Sovcts!: By the Sea™. I do not t:now, I do not know. Sovetsk, there, Sovets. on the map, not on tris want to say, that we this place: you Ilse there. nnot tell you anything pit, 2 suall, G the of stuc!: in my senory —= ress written on the aps I an in error here and +- for sone reason of the snit, or oe How-was it written -- "City of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray" -~- and what else was written. I do not remenber exactly. I told you, but you insist on putting the dot over the i's; I cannot insist. Weil, you see... it.should be “Hilitary Unit" or something. athe Se ww Cali-k Ca tee ene ee wate met dr ha i :
104-10210-10029 A. Jilitary Unit number so=nnd-so. “lilitary Unit number so-and-so", thon, prohahly the mail went throuch t 2 PRe . Sint; - ses the military Zfiold rost office. Well, beceus: ((it was a)) military unit. 2 cu ox bad Q A U Es oe Ce 4 pe “i " er ta Q ie) pes t te 3 ‘ « ch I suspect tnat it could not havo heen street nunbor, cte.... 10 street, nothings; no, no, no. If, lot us say, there wore other c circunstances.... If you wore an intelligence officer under civilian cover there, you could have reeecived nail at a civilian address. But, if (Grou wore)) at the mp, I do not think ((the mail)) would show "City of Sovets':, sucheandesuch a lray"™, Probably there vas only "“Uilitery tUhit...“ and nothing clse. ties om I co net know way this is “Sovetsk" in my menory; I do not I:now, Well, what wore your duticos- You arrived there as a senior translator-interpreter of the lik Inasine that it was located somewherc on the snit, and you were there. What was your job. The point was set up just before I got there, before my arrival... literally. ae ; Before this, they were in Gernany. I arrived, and the work here was purely of such... for everyone, officer and all the soldiers... the work was... simply outfitting the living . quarters... Here and... that... the soldiers' ness-hall... the officers’ mess... Parren aereannee tale, a9
104-10210-10029 ‘@ wore concerned with purely houseleeping sroblens. BS 4A. Yow auch time did this tase B. UST do not wnow: ZT cannot answer outrieht: IF do not “nov. ¥rom the bocipning, the noint was faced with the usual nrohlens. In German, tho serait ws concorued with avent worl:: that is, they had esents on comigreiaAl shins a8 thay had Sovict agents and also a7 rents from amon the foreiocner Sut nero, there was absolutely no ayuent worl; it was a new nission. The point, Intellizence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, and nrobably the GrU was chanced vith the creation, the preparation... rather, you could . say... the preparation of ANPs -— Azent((-—nmanned)) Observation Posts (Acenturno-Nablyudatel' nyvehosty) acainst the event of war. Whaat was it, and how was it organized. I personally did not do this ‘sind of wor'’:, because I nover had done that kind of wort; I had had no experiencz . Furthermore, I had had no exnorience with agents. I will toll you now, briefly, what it is and what I did, a ? 7? a Well, the officors -- erie, YI OLISEYEY, and the others.... 7 A. Tell me only waat you did: ¢o not tell ne want the other officers were doing. Tell only about your self, because we do not want to lose tine tall:ing about other persons. B. But it was connected with waat I did. A. Well, if it is connected with you, that is alright. : oe”. B. Tey | selected people, fron anong the NCOs, the officers, sailors, specialists, nadionen; then they organized groups of two and three men; they checked the men who were ready. to be discharged within six months from the Navy. oe . nce on
104-10210-10029 o eo. Alriehat: Let thea select the neople: let us return to yuuar Wort: . B. ((lervorsly:)) "y tasks vere, my tas:s were: I held lsctures about the forcisn policy, of the Soviet State... about the fundanentals of Marizisa.... Resides that, Waen thea mail eas delivered to tae military unit... thon, the litters wore delivered to our rnoint.... . I wis, so to say, an adainistrative officer: I nad such additional functions <= I brousht the letters over, and asied wnat was needed -- razors, sifvins crean, etc. So, So, £0, S90, so... I mean, Supnly.... beenuse they were housed in what you night call safehouses. A. And where vere these apartrents located. 3. There vere 2 couple in Sovets::: there were... on the anproa Raltiys:, in Baltiysi:, in several places. te e How vere the men whom you supported dressed. You brought them their letters, their personal effects, such as socks, smoker's supplios.... B. They were dressed in civilian clothes: and they did not go anywhere -- they lived there for two or three months at a time without leaving. A. And what were they doing there. - B. The officers -- let us say, BULAXH -- ah... trained them in explosives. YELISEYEY taught them how to collect intelligence data. That lieutenant who was with me =~ the tall, dark fellow who lived. ; * _ With ne == taught radio. + oe i These were short 2.3 month courses. . . A. What else did you do while you were there. B. Nothing else. . ae . Aerie eee ee ee
104-10210-10029 A. Practically to say a. so: “ore assicned a sontor translstor-!nternoreter oles d z ° x < ry but you did not wort: with translations. DH. No, no, no: there was no such translation worl there. A, and did thes assinn you as senior translator-interpreter, of Enzlish. B. I only have English. A. Well, who inows. faybe you now another one. B. Russian, A. Any thing else. B. No other lanzjuase; I understand a little bit in Un:rainian. A, Do you know how they say, "Proletariat of all countries, unite", in Ulcrainian. B. No. A, “Ragamuffins of the world, pile up!" Where did you learn Ukrainian. B. I was born in the Ukraine. A. Who in your fanily speaks Ukrainian: ceed ee B. Uy father knew Ukrainian, and ny mother knew it; they forgot it. Of course, they understood it very well. . A. Did you hear of the Ukrainian, TIXHOPZDENKO. 4 iB, ((Laughs)) No, I never heard such a ((name)). - : . :
104-10210-10029 As cAnd GOLCPUDIITIO i eet B.oOL Rave heard "“GOLOPUPINO . A, Listen, what is the matter Let us stop our tali. for a ronent. Of course, it is nossible thet -.— for some reason «< you-went to the Paltic... bit it is inpossible to believ> that a nan, a military intellisensce Point, did not do any intellicence wor, did nothin. B. Only this wort:, only this wort. A. What -- to hold lectures on foreiyn policy or Marxisn-Leninisn -— this was not ((i.e., could not have been)) your tast:. BG. This is the work they fave me; that is wav I was disenchanted with the work. Whaat could I do there. A. In the first instance, you scem to have been a political worker, but when you sny you delivered letters it looks as if you were Assistant Chief of the Intelligence Point for Sunnly. ’ B. ...met the point, not the point ~- for those people that were being trained. A. Someone was responsible for then. B. Well, the whole point was responsible for then. For each group, there was a plan: what kind of lectures to sive and ; ... how many hours, including mine -- in foreign policy: and Marxisn. a 8 : weet Besides that, there were aids (posobiye)... just a minute... there were aids... these were supplied by the GRU; they were printed -- not on a press, but typed. For exanple -- "The Agent Situation in Norway, Denmark, Sweden"; but 7 it was not the agent network that they had in mind -- it was the cities, tee eae
104-10210-10029 the descrintion of the citios, srat there is in th: cities, vnat Q sishts there are there, tho strcots, stores, ote., iccause cach sroun... @ach sroup wes trained there orecisely for dispatca to Denuar:, Sweden, Norway, in case of war. A. Of course, the conclusion can be inde that these sroups were very inportant and tare tas (mP was very iaportant, inasmuch as tacy were preparing agents. B. Please understand mé }- it is iust a bir title. A. To dispatch... Be I will explain to you risht now; hear me out. May I have a cirarette. . A. Yes. B. Loot how it soes e= thess officers, the officers who were instructing... they said that, as work, this was a joie. This was absolutely new work; they had never done such work hefore. As work, Lt sas a joke. _ Taey trained these fellovs for two or three nonths -= they do not know anyone clse ={—= only these three. One was the chief of the group; one was the radionan; and the other was the explosives man. . After two or three months they returned to their nilitary units. The conmander does not know where they were. The inpression is given that they have been on a trip, and the commander does not know where they have been for two or three months. Then, they return and coaplete their service in two or three nonths. And thus they already have been trained; then they are demobilized —_ _this is their regular service. They are demobilized, and they leave for hone. = = id Aes ae atte s Their training is a big secret. . * a
104-10210-10029 + ¢ > Miso is nathine’ Co ttetye Meoermewnel Tile abort Uiie: nothing ts noted. 4 and what Dnapneaned In case of war, they are nolihinsed tr tha locnl uilitacy connissarint: fa; - i Ber bar oot * qe ‘ oad . at * fae . for emannle, in the city of Biven', tiey tool: St PONCIMOPULO -—» he had heen trained, and tiey send Ala tn sone wmilltacy uni¢, OW; ean Chay Sind ain Pal = 2 - Thais is 2 Joe. A. Tcas "wht thantr nto vora on ’ 3. No; of ocuvso, on the valls of the GNE; are on the rolls o7 the 0 U. . . But, actually,they co uo. Sind unlit of then. A... Let us co bach & Little, RULAI taunt esslosives; tho Lieutennnt.... eS! . e a, he DR. Because ho iow that... * i . v6 5 + a. oe edo worl:, ote., and youl... B. I do not know e:plosives; I co not inow radio sort. How to colloct intellirvence data in that region, I also do not nov. Taat is way they Could it he satis® Of course not, a2zsolutely not. When I worled in the Far cast, at least I felt it vas intelligence work. information collection -- there was intelligence work, but it was far from that ((in the Baltic)). 7 ad I told you why E went on leave. és ; I was not entitled to it in January; it was too soon. "an! 4 | . But I spoke with GOLOVXO, and I told him, “Arseniy Nikolayevich, this | i work does not satisfy me at all. : i A, Are you sure that during that time about which you are talking, GOLOVXO ead, At Pe a
104-10210-10029 DB. ag not, only an sure; mut Tosav ati se the conmndoreinethie’® of the Pourth Navy Slest, a, wWaon you visited hin, are you sure he «ts there, at that tine mh. YT saw hir. at naltirs:. ae’ =~ SSE Ou 2°SENn. oes Be. Absolutcly: I savy him }#= he cava the orders, and that is wie they let A, We will return to GOLOT:70, C(iG; A ane 35 sneak at the sana tise)) anistry of De efense. +f B. tle died wiile Chief of Staff of the Navy of the J : 2 A, From waat you told me yesterday and day before nbout your Romsomell work, about the Fourti Navy Fleet, and that you told ne about your duties there, with mans, etc., my only conclusion is that I cannot believe your story. I would lize you to think about it and tell a more plausible story.... B. It is not a story;' this is how it was. } ae MN me meen ete - A. ...About where you were at that time, because there is no Proof that La teted eh sete mas you were there and wor':ed there, setheters I do not exclude the possibility that you were there under other a i e circumstances, buc I an sure that you did not work there at the time ahout which we are talking. ” etek renee da meee cate or Bemele  e a een gee: tem
104-10210-10029 » td Be. Iwas not there at an: tine other taan until 7% = eee’ (¢] A, You yourself understand that you ust cive a more accurate picture. Do you remember e- that in April 1354, when they talsed to you herc, you said that you and been there longer «= and that you told a different story about your marriace and fos: you cane from there te Moscow. oe rae ctpctentr ene ® Sie han Deen ne fire Now, of course, (Cit is)) a differcnt story ((Gyou are tellinc:)), and it is difficult to nate a conclusion abeut wicre the truth lies — wWaether vou were thore four months, or sis, or ning, or.... ¢ in the. i+ t2 Me hs | col at fe) mm B. But I could not have heen there... I arrived... beginnings of... on leave fron Sovctsxaya Gayan'. A. Well, you, of course, remember that at one time you said that you arrived fron Sovetskaya Gavan' at the beginning of the year, and then you said in the spring; I want to tal’: about this, also. t EB. Well, Iam telling you -- in the besinning of the sumer; I fmnovw exnactly, I arrived just before the tiny holidays; I was hurrying because of May ((Pirst of “fay)). A. Tunis was tho last version of your story; in the becinning, you told a different story. B. First of May 1952, my father reached fifty years of age, and I wanted... A. You told the doctor the last tine how you arrived, but before this you told a sonewhnat different story. If it is necessary, I can read to you what you said; anyway, this is what I want to set at =< if you really were there (Cin the paltic)), t . then you have to tell me nore thao what you have, B. I did not do anything else therc. Peete bee Se et: ae ee And I was not there more ((at any other time)). You can see yourself that what you did was not intelligence work. + eerste BEALS, «te vow nent e eee ge | an
104-10210-10029 Se eenesnenianal rrtsenteereesstnnstns eh ene B. Nut it ons! r) td Sut Io ¢9 not linew..., neg Tais is vay I leit there, and vay I cid not want to (2 thare. A. One cannot nelieve this e— A mah wis there, but dees not “nowy tic name of the Ciiel or the Deputy ((ChieZ}) and can only siive the nantes of two poople.... Rm, There was no Doputy at the point; tiore was a Chief, nut I do not * renenber his nance, I do not remomisr hin. ¢ A Tae man was in the Oaltic Fleet, cut does not even renanber the nane of the nowsnaper nublished there, dots not know the address, coes not Imow the field vost cfificc.... B. I do not renember the fidd post office. A. ...Does not know the Nomsonol orvanization.... B. Well... the Komsomol orzanivzvation.... A. You, of course, understand what Ioan talkins about; that story waich you have tried several tincs to -~ so to spen': ~- soll, one cannot in any way buy; I want you to understand this, 2s friend to friend, because this is very scrious. B. Would I really suck it out of my thumband make up stories for you: A. .I do not want you to make up stories -- this is exactly what I do not want. B. Well, just as I say —~ why should I; why do I have to? A. All the same, as they say, even though you say, "hy should I suck it i ns j out of my thumb.", you still do it sometimes, and sometimes you are { 2 } oy not so bad at it ==} I give you'a few "credits" for that! : i , , ; a cae
104-10210-10029 eae ANNIE en sem encanta «mm eet shan nae ean ma mo A. mut I do not eant-you to continue to do so in tha £ answer as I renonber, I did not co anything more there «= only this alsolutely futile worl. Ioan tryin: with leadins; questions, to remind you if you nave forvotten: Sut nothiny comes of it. You want... I dco not imow.... Rut I cannot tell you anything nore, if I do not renember and I co not know, I think we will finish on this ((noint)) today; I none that we will meet again =~ and not only onec; cach tine we stop, I as: sou or warn you that I think that the tinc has cone for you to tell sonething different so we can believe you.... (Canc of Reel #5)) A eee Ar a RE oY SPORE IY PORE ROSITA IPT RA ee ee eer eameenn recree npuege meee necempmnnee ete gente repeaters ots RANA TOE ANAT eens te ~