TOP SECKEI 75 1 | Mr. Kirbow. I think the important part of these recommenda "9 }}tions is in 74A, and I think there is where these get a hola of 3 what is going on in ‘the. gency, and I think it is important that 4 |jyou understand that. That is what is happening. 5 Mr. Aaron. He is / made equivalent to, a _ Deputy Director. 6 Senator Mondale. all | right. . of. y Mr.Madigan. On 91, to be consistent with Domestic, I 'g |) think you. should say the Director should periodically order or g ||require, not request. aa 10 Mr. Schwarz. Why don't we leave it that Elliot will 1} || Spot any differences, or |the staff, and if they can't -- ' | ' think instead of "request" we should 12 Senator Mondale. I 13 make it-a requirement. | 14 Senator Huddleston. | All right. It is so adopted. _ 15 _ We will move to the [Department of--Defense. 16 Mr. Aaron. All right, now, on the Department of--Defense, 17 || first of all I want to say that we have a good deal of the work 1g | that was done by the Defense Task) Force. ‘shows up either in | 19 || the budget section of thils paper, of the findings and conclusion 20 where we did a great -deall of work on the question of the budget, a . a 1; - 21 or it is part of the material that has been worked upon on 22 the Domestic side with. regard ‘to NSA and some of its abuses and Hs ‘ 24 The recommendations \ tore go particularly to DIA 23, so forth.. — I: 25 || and its effectiveness, and the suggestions made concerning its TOP SECRET  Docld: 32423519 Page 77 WARO & PAUL
TOP SECRET ee 76 fi 1 activities, It also maxed some general observations concerning 2 the charter of NSA and the consolidation of some of the activitiés 3 of the Defense snvestigathve Service, which I think by all 1 accounts has got a lot of |auplication involved in it. 5 We would add to the Feconnendations, which. begin on page rH | 102 -= I'm sorry, they do Lbegin on 101 -- we would add to et those recommendations che’ buggestion that the Director of. 1 tal : y NSA be limited to ten years, | ate Should serve at the pleasure of the President and in no elent longer than ten years. a , {it i Maxwell. Nominated by the President and subject to confirmation by the conat il 12 senator Mondale. “May! I make one comment? J Ee That last paragraph OF observations on 101, before the A recommendations, the > study! of "How can the technology of 13 14 15 advanced intelligence collection systems — be better utilized to 16 assist the civilian and domestic agencies of the Government without compromising the principal mission or: security of 1? 1g ||these intelligence systems?" 19 Mr. Aaron. Yes, sir, 30 “Senator Mondale. What. about civil liberties? 21 Are you suggesting that we should stop that and use it 9 ||there? — | oS (93 Mr. Aaron. The objectidf that suggestion, there is a great oA deal of information available, for example, through . overhead 25 photography that might be of use ‘and utility within the TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 PF .
10 11 12: 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32423519. Page 79 process concern. 7 TOP SECRET 77 United States. It can even be photography upon the ‘United State watersheds and what have you, that would be useful. Senator Mondale. , What I' m saying is, and with the fullest concern for its appropriate and legal -- put that. That! Ss not expressed in there. Mr. Aaron. No, it's not. I think we should add that, _the due Senator Mondale. Aaron. The other! thing that should be added is- Mr. | the impact on the open processes of government. Mr. Schwarz. David, it would help a lot, and I think Senator Mondale's question! is the same way, is what you are saying is how can.NSA's technology be used here because when you use -- how do we predict crops better through photography? You get a totally different problem. :  , an _ Mr. Quanbeck. Well, —I think you : havei:the problem of classification. 7 +} Mr.Miller. Well, I think Senator Mondale has the answer, ( that these things done without adversely affecting civil, eee eS ORS nour ae — liberties. I Senator Mondale. _The legal and constitutional rights, of _the. American people. Mr. Aaron. The other) question is if these things become ; i. . : widely available and if you: had the statute that the executive ar the President has proposed, then more people on the civilian TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL ’
TOP SECRET) ——_— | |iside of the government would have to be cleared and com e under 2 |Ithe kinds of restrictions,/ decisions are made on perhaps on the [ a 7 , 3 basis of classified information that hasn't occurred before. 4 Senator Mondale. “Well, that can be done. 5 - Mr. Aaron. We can work that out. 6 |. Beyond that'I don't believe there are any’ bracketed. section 7 in this text. -g |. Mr. Maxwell. The language can be made to conform with 9 the others? 10 Mr. Aaron. Yes, I think we can fix the format. 11 .- Senator Huddleston. You are going to fix the terms,. the 13 1 Senator Mondale. _The! Director | of the NSA should be > 14 nominated. I eS , is . Mr. Maxwell. It says “appointed.” - 16 Senator Mondale. “That! Ss _wrond,. 7 Ms. Culbreath.- Well, 1 thought from our meeting yesterday 18 that what we were going to do was have one general recommendatio which would go to all three of these major directors that 19 20 we were concerned with, the CIA, the FBI and the NSA, indicating 2] that’ they would be appointed at the president's pleasure. 22 Senator Huddleston. Well, we still ought to be consistent 93. “Senator Mondale. Well, I'm just getting technical, 24 lawyerish, but if someone is subject to confirmation, all the o5 |President does is nominate him.. He doesn't appoint him, and TOP SECRET : . , WARD & PAUL . | Docld: 32423519 Page 60
TOP SECRET —Ess 1 .jthen is subject to the pleasure of the President within that 2 term. | | | | | 5 Ms. Culbreath. My question is, do. we want one general 4 recommendation or do we want to put it in. each one of these 5 ||sections.. That is what I am trying to get at. 6 _ Mr. diGenova. Both. | 7 Senator Huddleston. Well, today, will one do it? Are 8 |lwe talking about stylistic or simply mentioning them here. . We 9 [fought to be consistent every time we mention them. We ought to i" . | 10 ||mention the term. | ll |} Ms. Culbreath. . It seems to me if we had that as a | 12 ||general recommendation it wouldn't be necessary to put in t | | Il ; 13 ||each of these sections. | 14 Mr. Maxwell. But there are. people who are going tbo be 15 reading each of the individual sections for their own interest . 16 |} and they ought to see that the head of NSA is nominated and 19 confirmed. 18 Senator Mondale. “I move everything else.. 19. ' Mr. Aaron. All right. 20 Senator Huddleston. All right. -~ 21 | We are to the Department of State and ambassadors. 22 | Mr. Aaron. Right, and in this section we have two 23. ||\bracketed recommendations, going to the question of the authorit 24 lof the Ambassadors and their responsibility in the field for 25 ||/supervising the activities of the Central Intelligence Agency. TOP SECRET Docld:32423519 Plage 81 . WARD & PAUL
TOP SECRET 20 1 By statute, the ambassadors are now held responsible for 2 |jall activities within their country by elements of the United 5 ||States Government. The agencies of the government are responsible 4 ||to keep the Ambassador fully informed of all. of their activities 5 |/As you know from the hearings that took place -- 6 . Mr. diGenova. David, where are you? 7 Mr. Kirbow. -Page 107. | 8 Senator Mondale. Page 108. 9 Mr. Aaron. We've turned to 109, actually. Well, the 10 ||/recommendations begin on 108. oo 11 | Mr. Kirbow. On 107 Mr. Bader and I both have “some concern 12 about unsupported charges, but I am willing to go on to 13 ||109 and come back to it. 14 | Mr. Aaron’ I would be happy to come back to it. - Dealing first with the recommendations on 109, the 16 |) Statutory responsibilities are to be fully informed for these 9 activities, both the ambassador is held accountable and the 18 agencies concerned are supposed to keep him fully informed. 19 Now, it is a fact today that these instructions have 20 never been issued, instructions to implement this legislation 21 ||have never been issued. | 22) I believe, Senator Mondale, you were there during the 23 exchange with Ambassador porter in which he suggested that 24 || they had been suspended, if you will, the Law had ‘been 25 suspended by the absence of instructions.:to implement them. TOP SECRET , ; WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 Page 82
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 295 Docld: 32423519 TOP SECRET 61 There are two recommendations here in brackets designed to ae give the Ambassador and the Department of State the kind of eee pe ne tee access required to carry out his responsibilities. “The first qe eet eee we might just take up is to give the ambassador the statutory, or give him the right, if you will, of access to the operational communications of the Clandestine Service. It provides for an exception if the National Security Council decides that for one reason or another certain operational messages should not be made available to the ambassador, but it puts that responsi- bility into the National security Council which has the overall responsibility for directing our foreign policy and intelligenc activities, and does not leave it, as it lies ‘today, at the discretion of the: station| chief who may or’ may. not show opera~ . |. tional messages to the ambassadors. As a practical matter, I believe it is fairly. clear from the ‘record that we have oF interviews as | well as discussions that most ambassadors would not want or take advantages of this kind of access.. What it does is it provides them with an opportunity to do so if they feel it is necessary in the execution of their responsibilities. On the other hand, there have been many anbassadors who have taken the position that. without such access they can really never know whether they are in control or being kept fully informed. Senator Huddleston. . Charles? TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL age 33
10 11 12 13 ‘14 15 16, 17 18 19 20° el 22 25 24 29 Docld: 32423519 Page 54 TOP SECRET Mr. Kirbow. Yes, sir. _I would Like to discuss the broad issue of the responsi-~ bilities of the Ambassador, his access to: this and ‘to other communications of the Agency, unless the Agency is relieved of this responsibility for protection of sources and methods. I think-there is a way to accomplish it without him reading. the operational traffic which, if the Committee is not aware, goes into great detail on certain -- well, I will give you an example of the type of thing that we are talking about him havin | free aceess to, and that/is, take one of the agents recruited in the United States that ‘then he goes back to a foreign country and they give hin, before he leaves here, certain detailed instructions on/how he is to make his first contact. When that first contact is made there in that country, a message goes back from that station to the headquarters that whatever the code name of the agent is has in fact complied with his original instructions and I have in turn issued him -- and then they set forth the instructions that have been issued for whatever he is going to do. It is this type of operational traffic which involves probably -the most carefully protected sources and methods information in the United States government. It involves at the outset of the first contact, grave risk to the man's life if he is in fact furnistiihg this type of infoxmation. The Agency is concerned about broadening this. Apparently |: TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL
10 11 12 “13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld:32423519 Page 85 Secretary of State. | noq n 6 oD tin es HK 83 the President of the United States and the Secretary of State have been concerned--about it’ bec although this other statute has ause they have not seen fit, been around for some time, not to require that this be done by regulations promulgated by the i | I think that it is a matter 3 mag concern for the oversight commit that should be of some serious tee. along with the executive branch. Something should be done to reconcile these two differences in the law. Senator Mondale. Well, let me ask you. Are you arguing now that the law is’ ambiguous) and not clear? i | Mr. Kirbow. Only one point , Senator. It is in conflict. The executive is in conflict with another law on the. books, .and 4 t t in.that respect there is a' probl em as to what information. Senator Mondale. ‘But the law apparently requires that all of these things shall be under the control of the ambassador within each country. Is that Public Law.93-4752 Mr. In other word ‘Is there ! Kirbow. Senator Mondale. Mr. Kirbow. “Well; the 1947 of sources and methods. shall be DCI. You could go f TOP u Mr. Kirbow. WARO : [ - Senator Mondale. But not that. . I s, he is. the bottom line. another act? Act says that: the protection the responsibility of the urther and say sources and methods. SECRET & PAUL
10 11 12, 13 14 "15 16 17 18 19 20 el Re 25 24 29 Docld: 32423519 Page 66 having the clearance, statute. Jor SfCRET Apparently it hasn't been ‘in the past. fied information of this nature, it has als even here, of having the need to. Senator Mondale. Well, I i | 84 The thing with classi- it has always gone not to just © gone to the additional step, know. I'm not getting to this point of what the policy is,.T just am trying to find out what. the law is.- of Mr. Kirbow. Both: eh tae Yo ‘Senator Mondale. law s ‘The. you say you must also leave that sources and methods provision of Mr. Kirbow. That is the on The only thi ‘ 1 Mr. diGenova. and methods from unauthorized di | the ambassador is they | 1 are! autho Senator Mondale. Sol you do Huddleston. Senator , David? Senator Mondale. ‘Surely th the power to suspend a law if it do. they? Mr. Madigan. I don' t think Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Madigan.’ The law says It does not require that they be ur bottom line is correct. ays they must do it, but then law in conjunction with the ~ the 147 act... . ly point. ng is the '47 act says sources sclosure, and the position of rized recipients under that n't think there is an ambiguity. e executive does not. possess is clear. No one argues that, . ‘that's. the case, they are authorized recipientss. given these materials. TOP SECRET © WARD & PAUL
10 11. 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19. 20 21 Re 295 24 Ro Docld: 324233519 TOP SECRET 85° There I think is where’ the rub is. I think it gs a-- I don't think it isa question: “of the executive disregarding the law, as I read this section. Mr. Aaron. /I think it, would be helpful if 1 read the law. | : | | Senator Mondale. All: right, let's try that.. No, let's . argue about it and then read it. _ off eo, Mr. Aaron. This is the authority and responsibility of ambassadors.. Under the direction ‘Of the President (1) United States Ambassadors to a | tdgeign country shall have full | responsibility for the dizgction, coordination and- supervision of all United States Government officers and employees in that : country except for personnel under. the: commander of the United States area commander ; (2) [the Ambassador shall keep himself | eully | and currently informed with respect to all activities and’ ‘ i ‘operations of the. United States Government within that country and shall ensure that all government officers and . I ! employees in that country, except for personnel under the command of the United States area military commander, comply fully with his directives,meaning the ambassador; (3) any -- _ ' : : . . j department or agency having officers or employees ina country shall keep the United States ambassador to that country fully and currently informed with respect to all activities and - j : H { | operations of its officers ‘and employees in that country and. Shall ensure that all of its officers and employees, except Top SECRET age ‘87 | WARD & PAUL
“10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 ‘18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32423519 | 16% SECRET 86 ; . for personnel under the command of United States area military commander, comply fully with applicable directives of the ambassador. Senator. Mondale, ‘Now, does somebody have the language of the sources and methods portion of the '47 act? Mr. Maxwell. The DCI is charged with protecting the sources and methods of: intelligence from unauthorized disclosure Senator Mondale. You don't think there is any conflict? Mr. Maxwell.’ No, there is no unnecessary conflict. There is potential conflict, Senator, but the conflict, I think, is spoken to in the. recommendation. . s . | : Senator Mondale. You méan who is authorized is the ambiguity. | | ‘Well, who is authorized? Mr. Aaron. “Well,.the first recommendation of the Subcom- : Loo : mittee, which has not been: questioned, was that these | } : authorized recipients of this information. instructions be issued; quickly and that these ambassadors are | Senator. Huddleston. Well, Mr. Lombard has a question. Mr. Lombard. Well, IW just like to make a comment on po) No. 2-.in the bracket. ‘First of all, when you say ambassador, . are we really talking about the ambassador, because if the ambassador is going to try to ‘delve into operational messages,’ there's going to be delegation of-authority to others.on his me staff, and a proliferation of strictly operations. I think TOP SECRET . . | WARD & PAUL : age 66 I. ! ; ;
a Tor SECKEL | 87 1 ||the Committee ought salam make a distinction between 2 ||[the reporting that goed from a station and the operational messages. bi} ; 5 A Mr.Aaron. Mr. chairman, may I’ comment on that? és That is not a useful distinction. The reason it is not 6 lis that the point of the recommendation is to provide the 9 ambassador with the access} to the operational messages if he 1 \ Oo deems it is necessary to fulfil his legislative responsibility. 9 . Now, we do not have to recommend that he have that authorit , 10 || but we shouldn't confuse it by saying .that he can't see what 11 || they write, because basicaly he does see what they write. He 12 does see their reports, and certainly that would be part of it. 13 The question is whether you want to recommend that he 14 be given this access, and we can either vote it up or down.. 15 . Mr. diGenova: Well, ‘perhaps with regard to the. first point 16 || that Mr. Lombard makes about the first point of delegation to 17 ‘other 4 persons would be to iput ambassadors personally should have} | jg i the right to access, and just dealing with the language which. | 19 || is bracketed here, to deal with the cirst criticism. Personally 20 should have the right, and make the point that they would not 21 || be permitted to delegate that right of access to another 922 subordinate, that it is of such a higher nature -- 23 Senator Mondale. That's. all right, shall have personal 24 |;access, but in any event, the NSC, they can do anything they 25 || want. TOP SECRET ; : WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 Page 69
TOP SECRET a8 1 It _ Mr. diGenova. . NSC can cut them off. - . | ~ 2 | Mr. Aaron. -I think that is an important saving clause. 3 Senator Mondale. Doesn't that take care of them? 7 . . 4 Mr. Lombard. Actually I have a much stronger position on. 5 ||this; I think, because of the varying. qualities of ambassadors © 6 ||that we have that if we -~ and I think this is one of the 7 |jreasons why the regulations have never been promulgated, because - we have ambassadors in some countries for various reasons g ||who are not felt trustworthy to have this. kind of information. bs 10 Now, you can argue that we jeughe to have better ambassadors, if 1] || but we have to take ‘the real world. We have some that are 12 inclined to spill information at cocktail parties, and we know vik if 13 ||who they are, and here we are opening the door. 14 Senator Mondale. Well, we have CIA spilling about atomic 15 |) bombs .. i 16 Mr. Lombard. That was a mistake, and they admitted it. 17 Senator Mondale. “thére is a structure that we can set up 18 that is rational, and to have several different conflicting 19 policies within the same country it seems to me is intolerable, 20 and it is better to put the blame where it should go, with. the - 21 ambassadors and say well, ‘let: us get a better class of ambassadors. 22. Maybe we would be more serious about who. we send to these | 23. stations, particularly - “the hot stations. And Secondly, © we 24-|| Leave ‘in the NSC the ouendity to take them out of the loop 25 whenever they believe he should not be in it. TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 Page 30 |
10 il le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 RA 25 Docld: 324293519 ' Tap SECRET 89 “Bag So that, in other words, what would happen is that they would take the ambassador | out of the. loop, for all practical be i purposes, only. in important circumstances where consciously they have decided this generalized policy of a single ambassador jj in charge of a Policy within a country must be circumvented. I think that is a good policy because I think the present system is totally capriciqus. Moreover, I think an ambassador tends to be for all of their problems strong in the one area where CIA action personnel tend to be the weakest, namely in ‘political sophistication. Mr. Maxwell. That's Also why we focus on the personal re re Co - access. Then the ambassador has to take responsibility. ‘Senator Mondale. And | this _will 1 obviously be “something UP weet a, for review when all the: Senators are here. -— ; . Nn : "So.why don't we adopt jit tentatively. That way, I understand, we have to go.back to it. Mr. Kirbow. Senator, ‘are you agreed that we should put in afterward, before the right, the word "right", personal, not: oa he . bof ; to be delegated? | Senator Huddleston. ALL right. Does that take us down to 5? r. Miller. One question here. - Senator Huddleston. ‘What about a question after it has been adopted?” ! | Mr. Miller. What about if the ambassador is out of the TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL t
10 11 12 13 14 15 (16 17. 18° 1g 20 “21 22 3 24 25 said, that's right. | TO country, the charge? Mr. Kirbow. faces. Mr. Aaron. I seriou Committee has to get down. the ambassador, how the e wants the charge to execu well, - then, they have’ to Senator Mondale. We of 5. The only reason for Mr. Kirbow. No, Sen question here, and one on this Committee, and that why that should ever be t of the communication syst of the State Department. word of testimony. Senator Mondale. We : Started with Gronowsky, a communications system of disrepair, that | had any money to put. in a modern communication system was the CIA, ‘and the CIA Top SECRET Docld: 32423519 P ge 92 - Now you What. happened was that the international | the various embassies was in total second rate materials. | properly. It rt was all Nodel~1 stuff. fo P SECRET 90 come to the problem that the CIA sly feel this is not the level the to. I think if the law sticks to xecutive wishes the -- if the executive te it in the absence of the ambassador, |. ido it. it LL 5, a a ator, that is a totally separate © if 2 is adopted, that takes care \which we have heard no evidence before] rid i he te the. reason it is bracketed, of ken and given back to control, all ems of the CIA be given to the control, i . 'To my. knowledge, there is not one : i 11, to my knowledge, though, it got. nd I checked this with Porter and he You couldn't encode And the only agency agreed to provide it, provided they WARD & PAUL