52 . . RLU! wr} 92 4 ; . in Washington? . | iH .. . . . . ot . _. i Mr. Phillips:. As I recall it, it was on a copy of i a | the cable which arrived in Mexico... That would be. the.answer i , ta t . 4 | to your question. . an a) , | 423 ' But it seers to me,'as I recall the indicators, but I am | i { | " S| not positive about.that.: Co : Mr. Dodd. Wotmally you. wouldn't. make an annotation Bike i 2024 (202) $5n~24N5 3 | that before sending a cable? | i - Ce 3 2) Mr. Phillips. ‘No.. | 3 i . ; ; co 1 ~ ic | Mr. Dodd. You would retype the cable. ae [ g nd Mr. Phillips. Yes, you.are probably right. ts ; = | . : 3 | = 42 | — | med a - oe | that. was an annotation. made in. Washington.” | | BULELDING, i Mr. Dodd. So..the conclusion one would reach was that | { | | Mr. Phillips.. Yes, I think you would, but Idon't. | know, sir. I really don't know. | : | REPORTERS 6) Mr. Dodd. ‘Thank you. That is all. > ME, S = Well, let me just ~- one other point.. Was there ever in o: | your experience, knowing the chief there, what.is his name -- . . _ . . \ | Mr. Phildips. ,Winston. Scott.: ne ‘ ny | = in =. 13 = a Cc oy rhe mS . Mr. Dodd. Win Scott. Was he the kind of individual 7 | that. would have: interclanged or’ uséd “interchangeably the words, it . os | the. letters aka" and. "sic" interchangeably as. having the same | @ 23 meaning? | ; ; _ | ; : 7 oe oe : | ad Do you appreciate that? | | : iv Mr. Phillips: Yes. I don't. think so... He was an... i u 4 + HW 50955 DocId:32277212 Page a5
HY 0955 53 “93 : intellectual. His great secret was. that. he wrote poetry. He 3 | i i 1 , dian t want anyone else. to know that. He was. very well educated, i ii i i if dat | extremely well: read, and no, he. As not the. kind. of man. -- a Mr... Dodd... . He would appreciate the distinction... 2345 ase i HI Mr. Phillips. He. ‘would appreciate the distinction between Sipe Mr. Dodd. Thank you.. (2023 4: ou Mr. Preyer. Wu were Chief of Covert Actions in Mexico C, FNn2h 9) City in 1963... | 7 7 0. 4 Had you been in.Mexico City in some other capacity for. 1} | some time before. that?. | ; WASH THOUGH , 12, | Mr. Phillips. Yes, sir, from the fall of 1961. REPGATERS BUTEDING, aay Mr..Preyer. From the fall of '61? : Mr. Phillips. That was the period I was Chief of Covert: | 15 | Action, until 1963, when I then was told that my new. job | . would be chief of Cuban Operations. But. in many aspects , those ' " , Vf | jobs sort. of overlapped in.a way because so much of my work. Mi, © oe | it iin covert. action. in the first, in '61-'62, had to do with - Sag PTH SPREET, 4] Mr. Preyer. Still related to Cuba, did. the reporter | -" | Ron Kessler contact. you originally about the ‘story? | | Me. Phillips. Yes, sir, he called me. Mr. Preyer. All right,: I have no further questions at. “# [this time. BE Mr. PHillips.: Counselor, is it out of line for me to. DocId:32277212 Page 96
54 4 make one other remark about Morris, Bishop as-Iuknow: the:‘case, > ox should I just let that one go? Mr. Goldsmith. Please do.. | Mr. Phillips. If the stories which I have read in the : Jack Anderson column. are accurate, and that Mr. Véciana's i pay ~- I have never heard of such. a payment -~ during that 1 5 7 story is that he workeds for many years for the CIA and this | g 7 and that and the other, and then was later given a large payment : 2 | of $150,000 ox something to reward him for his service, I : + | can't say about. all the time that I. was in __ : 1o | ana so forth, but as I recall it, those newspaper stories, | : Wag they are accurate, said that he says he received this | a ! = 2 large payment after I became the Chief of the Western Hemii sphere cc 4 E \2 | Division back in Washington.. I belbeve.it said it was in e : “ September of '73. I became the chief in the summer of '73. : : i | It is almost. inconceivable to me that a payment of. that | = ¢ sum could be made to. a Cuban exile without. my being aware of | ‘A V7 iat, I certainly never signed off on that kind of payment, and : sa as I recall the dates, I was sitting in that seat. So that in z 13 | meant that if he indeed did receive that kind of termination Bay | (Period, that Bill Colby must have done it, and I don't. believe | (Bill Colby would have done it because he would have told: me ‘about it and kept. me out of trouble. But that one aspect:I can say for the. record quite ‘surely, am iI really. don'' t believe that anyone at CIA made a large payment | v4] HY 50955 Bocld: 32277212 Page 97
55 i han I think. it was September of "73. | 2 Mr... Goldsmith. ‘Are you. aware of any payments by anyone | H ; 3 at. the CIA to Veciana? ! \ H & - Mr. Phillips. None. Could have been. ! : 5 Mr. Goldsmith. You said that you had a conversation with | cs 7 Veciana when you.met him the first. time. | | g a Mr. Phillips. Yes. | ; 7 : zo Mr. Goldsmith. “What:wastthe.'stibstance-\6ft that<conversat« ™ i : me 8 9 | tion? | e i | | 5 o ‘Mr. Phillips. I was simply answering questions. He was: | : H | asking me quéstions in Spanish. : = 2 | _ Mr. Goldsmith... What. were the questions? | es | . . @ : 3 ‘Mr. Phillips. Oh, I don't.know. I just -- I had the | ; | eunny feeling when he was asking the questions that what. he | | : IS | really wanted was:to listen to. my accentiin Spanish. I was _ * \= | thought. the whole thing was strange because when he sat at : = i : i" | the luncheon. table, he didn't really eat very much. He spent = | : % all of his time. looking around this room with some. 275 former. = 9 (cma people in it, as if he were looking for people. The - | 5 2 |questions had to do with, what were you. doing in Miami, | in Havana when you were there, this and that. and the other. : ! I was quite, frankly quite surprised that I was being, | ed ® i questioned in Spanish. | oo | Mr. Goldsmith. Have you ever had any operational. activity with.a‘y man named Gordon McClindon? © HY 50955 DBocld: 32277212 Page 93
56 hay, 96 ocial activity, including the time when. I was going to séhodl at. William and Mary and I came to. & * || Washington to a now defunct girls" school in Silver Spring ! Bo Sen : ‘acceptediasride back to school with a C292) $545-2305 7 | unfortunately his school turned out to be Yale, and I. went : 2 | the wrong way, and it was Gordon MeCLindon who took. me. : ay Since.then we have become, close friends and associates, = 0} but. I have. never had any operational activity. with him whatsos a ‘| | ever. WASHT MC He is an. extremely, extremely wealthy REPORTERS BUPLDING, =. n 17 7TH STREET, called National Park College, and when the prom was over I convivial fellow. — i . . Mr. Goldsmith. And where does he work now? _ 4 Mr. Phillips. Mr. McClindon manages’ his investments. man. Some of the. Congressmen may remember the. man known on radio kriown as the old Scotchman, who was the first man who recreated baligames with sound effects records, and he became very, very wealthy, lana I am now engaged with him in a television venture. But — | have. never hadi any CIA activity with. him at all. | a mo * | Mr. Goldsmith. Does Mr.:-McClindén do any work. with your atu . nn pee "| brother in Texas? SN TS iH . Ke? 223 iN ube McClindon ran.at one time for the U.S. 1 i t { i i \ a ' : : } ‘ | t i ‘ i iy i BW 50955 Docld: 32277212 Page 99. ‘Mr. Phillips. No, I think not. ., 8 nen Mr. Goldsmith. Do they know.each other? | Mr. Phillips: I am suré they have met. because Mr. | Senate. He. has been. eens
57 97 |) well kriown in that Dallas-Fort Worth area. I am sure they 7 1 have. met. each. other. “Whether they are. friends or not; I | yo) don't knows. . e . a Me. Goldsmith. ‘We chatted earlier during the recess, | . | and I asked you some questions about Howard Hunt. ae | _ To-your knowledge, aid. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis | £202) $54-2945 o * know each other .duringsthevtime that. the. Bay of Pigs operation| « 20024 cna a9 Mr. Phillips. My -- I am not real sure about ‘this; but - D.C. | [Was under way? | Oe | | | I believe that Howard Hunt certainly met him during that. | ; | period before the. Bay of Pigs. Howard for a time was living VASUTHGTON , 5 2 i y | in Miami and he met a lot of Cubans. when he was down. there, and i , , . iI think in’ a. previous. conversationswe had, we were, discussing. | | 14 4 the fact that. Sturgis was connected with Pédro Diaz Lunz.. | I believe that it was at that time that Howard first. met him.. REPORTERS RUTLDENG , S.M, | | Ean not. positive. - | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall a conversation with. Howard | . . | in. which he mentioned Sturgis? _ AN 7TH STREET, 3 ok Mr. Phillips. No, I don't. I had so many conversations i . | | with Howard Hint and I. don't remember the. name. Sturgis coming up; no. It was only after. the Watergate business that it really meant anything to me.. Mr. Goldsmith. What. about ‘the name Frank Fiorini? | a4 | Mr. Phillips=- Yes, that name. meant more. because that - 25 jwas theifone that. you heard more. Certainly I have heard 4 1 i ub a ! t + dos HY 50955 DBocld: 32277212 Page 100
58 £98 i of Sturgis, and this and that and the other, but I don't 3 recall specifically Howard bringing it up. He might very well’ 7 have.. : hy 3 Mr. Goldsmith. Is it your feeling, nevertheless, that : 7 Hunt and Sturgis knew each other in '61? a 5 7 Mr. Phillips. Yes, but I can't. be positive that that is | g r true. It is possible that Howard met him afterwards, but I 2 am not -- I have a feeling that they knew each other before. - | 5 >| But I just can't be sure. : 10 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever see’ them together? | : : i Mr. Phillips. Not to my knowledge. I. could have. | 3 7 Mr. Goldsmith. I am going to read you a list of names | : a | very quickly. The names are Jerry Buchanan, Hal Hendrix, ” 1 = z ta | Lonnie Hudkins, Jeremiah O'Leary. | £ it : 5 | Have any of these people ever served as your assets or s | agents? ‘ 17 | Mr. Phillips. First of all, Jerry Buchanan is very : | tanitiar, One of the names you mentioned doesn't. strike any | : 2 | bells. The two newspaper men, Hal Hendrix and Jerry O'Leary | = 20 | certainly do. Jerry O'Leary happens to be a very close personal | i friend of mine. ; i , i i In neither case did either of these two newsmen ever work | ' 1 ;for me or work for the CIA to my knowledge. They certainly onal i { | } | | 1 land I know that they didn't. work for me... They were. both. .. “3 ‘newspaper men, perhaps, but the two of them were the. two ‘tep 4 tt i non yes HY 50955 DBocld: 32277212 Page 101
59 399 A 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Which two are you referring to now; | : 3 | Buchanan and O'Leary? 4 | Mr... Phillips. No, fiot: Buchanan. That's -- I just” | aay ae 20024 €202) S$54-23945 say that is familiar to me, but O'Leary and Hendrix. Mr. Goldsmith... Hendrix.: eG “Mr. Phillips. But when Hendrix, before’ he went to work” | first for Intercontinental Hotels and then ITT, was a top | sa go Y notch Latin American. correspondent as. Jerry O'Leary has a | | zg 6 continued to be, and so they didsnot fit in the category = <| : : of assets. or agents. or anything else. «They were certainly | = 2 | friendly: newspaper people we. exchanged information with. Ang a : a one result of that is Jerry O'Leary is a.close personal 2 4 friend of mine. But Hé ‘did not work for the Agency in-any i = is As. youiknow}Hal Hendrix later became involved in. the | a 7 Chile-ITT business and he was not an employee ‘of the ‘Agency. : 3 | Mr. Goldsmith... Have you ever given any of these : z aa individuals information pertaining to the assassination of | 5 20 the President? : Mr. Phillips. Oh, yes, certainly. I don't. know about . , Hendrix, I don't know whether I have him, but. I have. known. | Jerry so very well for so -- we have dinner together’ and our | wives, and this and that and the other. He has: been on the > ! 25 intelligence beat.. He hasé. followed up and I. have ‘told, him | dor HW 350955 DBocld: 32277212 Page 102
°° 100° | my side of things, told him what I. knew and this that and 2 the, other. af Mr. Goldsmith. Could. -you bes > more. specific in terms: of ls 4 the information that you gave. “Rim? | | 3 ap oe Me. Phillips. Only {in the sense ‘that z have known. . 3 $ | Jerry O'Leary for so many years that when. we get together a 7 at dinnertime we talk about. what.is going on. in. Washington. 3 ir don* t. recall specifically. | | | a. a Ir ao recall specifically that. I. haven't. talked to him = | about. details of-my testimony before this Committee. in: 1976, | E | gor instance, not. that, but. I certainly have. ‘talked with him = | ys = (2, | about the assassination. a 2 | Mr. Goldsmith.) And you don't recall. the substaice, right @ 3 4 now?._. a | ne | o . a os | 7 | 4 o Zh _ | Mr. Phillips: No. ‘The, ‘general substance. I think I | for “the record, ‘should say. that. I have. talked to a number of a 4s : . [Mewspapermen, generally about the assassination. r have been. zz jon. the David\Suskind: ‘talk show about. it, ‘ete., etcl., etée oa) H ‘= 13 | = 7 ~ . Mr. Phillips, That. name is familiar. I don't place it right | now: oe } | . '. Mr. Goldsnith. What. about Jerry Buchanan? : i Mr. “Goldsmith. “You ‘indicated that. there ‘were. two: people - | | that: you discussed the assassination with. O'Leary. was one. 244 4 Who ° was “the other? : Mr Phillips. iT suppose | ‘that*I would say that r, “=r HW 50955 Bocld: 32277212 .Page 103 —
61 -” | “S101 would havestozsay that. I discussed it with Hendrix because when 2 1 used to see Hendrix on many occasions we would talk about | | ~ ; | everything that had to do with Latin America and I just, I | & 4 | think it is inevitable that we must have talked about the | ! wn Coe, = sy Kennedy Assassination: He knew I was in Mexico City and. 2 5 | so forth. I certainly don't. recall any speci fics.: | = | | _ Mr. Goldsmith. Finally, aia Howard Hunt or Frank. Bender | - He . 3 ar ever. ask. you to help finance the repair of an airplane,,:.a | J * |'pi25 owned by Frank Sturgis? : a | = io | Mr. Phillips. Well, if it was --. oe : ni | Mr. Goldsmith. I will give you moresbackground.. The | a . ‘2 | purpose. of this would have been to have‘had Pedro Diaz Lunz | Ey = i fly leaflet: missions over Guba. - . ; | | : sl Mr. Phillips.: Yes, I recall that Howard -- & don't. | E S| petieve it was Bender because Howard and Bender hardlyvever. | = | oo “ S| got. together. They weren't. getting along very well in those | " 7 | days, but. I do. have the ‘recollection of Howard coming. #0: me and talking about the airplane, and I sort of had the. idea | that I gave them some money so that this man could drop some | 3h VP STRENT, **". leaflets “or something like that, but now that you refresh. | my. memory , I. think it was to. repair. the planesso that they ,ecould do it. | ae | | Yes, I recall that, but I recall it being Howard Hunt. “" and. not: .Bender.. . | ~ Mr.. Goldsmith. So it was Howard Hunt; and would this be | i NS fr he ES RSE § : , ae . = i . ALOEESON HEBORTING COMPANY OL | a Go N¥ 50955 -DecId:32277212 Page 104 . So
62 e202 og ‘1 an example of a situation which leads you to believe that . | Hunt and Sturgis in fact knew each other? | iv Mr, Phillips. Yes, I think..so. I recall that Howard @ 4 | Hunt's. book mentioned the fact that. he had come to me and | . : i said sure, you can have somé money for the plane or. something 5 : | Like that. : g 7 Mr. Goldsmith... I have nothing further. | rs | Mr. Preyer. Have you written a. book or are. you writing | : ha book? Did I get that from the testimony? | | : ie : ‘Mr.iPhillips.., ‘Sir, I have written.a book which has - | i if : i = 11 |now been. published, and dsuring <4 in 1976 when. I appeared | = 12 [before you submitted for the record at that time the pages © i : 1) fof the book which had to do with the Kennedy assassination. | ® : id Since then I have written another book which is going to be : : 1s | published in October, but it is fiction and it does not have : = 18 [to do with assassination, with. the Kennedy assassination. : 4 7 Mr. Preyer. For the record, I will ask, have you ever : : i3 seen or ever met Lee Harvey. Oswald? © : in a : BN | Mr. Phillips. Sir, I havert. ! = 29 | Mr. Preyer. Are there any other questions that anyone | | | jhas at. this time? _ : Mr. Fithian. I would like to ask ‘two very sweeping © if iquestions just to satisfy my own curiosity. : | You have. been pretty. close to this whole story. of the jassassination and. were on the scene where. part of it was i a WY 50955 Boclda: 32277212 Page 105
HY 0955 63 4 played out.. bso tu assassin? | os 202% (202) S46-2345 os D.c, Cc my sob WASETHG TON , Ra ab « ue Ley REPORTEPS BUTELDING, ao ~ wv ~ 3 . 'y dhe did.. Pad a4 ae Ht = 17 || = \ = 35 | pay av i Wh? Boclda: 322772312 Page 106 Is. it your judgment that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone > Mr. Phillips. Sir, it is obvious that 1 don't. have the information that you do, especially about Dallas... But it is. my. belief that until I see some other evidence to the contrary, God knows I would like for it. to come out that Fidel. Castro was responsible:.or that the Soviets were responsible because there are so. many people, especially on college campuses who are convinced the CIA dia it. I found myself being accused publicly of perjury before the Congress. by Mark Lane during debates on college campuses, so. I would | like for something like’this. to. come ‘out, but 1 know of no | evidence to show that the Cubaris of the Soviets put. him up to it, and I just have: to. go along on ‘the side ‘that he was. a. I. just have to come. down on. that.. In a easeson the west coast, two women tried separately to assassinate President Ford within a very short time of , was a conspiracy, and the reason, I believe, is that.they | | doesn't. want to. believe that one man. could murder Camelot. | And. so I comé down on. that side but that is justzopinion. . Mr.. Fithian. And you have no inkling that anyone in. QRTING COMPARLY kind. of a loony fellow who decided to. shoot the President,. and: i i i i i i ‘each other. We never hear the slightest suggestion that ‘there! i i | missed. Lee Harvey. Oswald didn't miss, and the. American public i i :
; | the. organized crime sector might have had any interest in . 2 | this. — Mr... Phillips. No, sir, I. do not. tab The Chairman asked me.a minute ago if I had known: Lee re 20024 (2023, 54-2345 Gra Harvey Oswald. I have a. number jof children yet to. go through | | _| college, and I am in the lecturing business, and I could | quadrupleemy income overnight if I. could change the title a to thé CIA Man.Who Knew Oswald. I. would make half a million. | dollars next year. But I. don't know of any such connections... BL. c, oO ay ‘Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. PHillips. =~ : rr Mr. Preyer. . Thank you,. Mr. Phillips... i a WASEETHGTON , As was. indicated earlier, when. we completé the testimony; | we do, make available*to the witness an opportunity to. make a | 8 BUPTOR ENG , 4 | Statement for five minutes. If you have a further statement. ‘that you would like. to make at this time we will.be happy to. REPGATENS 8B a a IT | Mr. Phillips. Sir, I think I just made more statement ‘& (| '4 | than you would want to: hear. = 7 I would like to say I would be delighted to come back to | 5 20 | this Committee any time and try: to be as useful as I can. | emp anh Mr. Preyer. Thank you, Mr. Phillips. We. appreciate | aos i. | | me? sn ite. f VRS , that — ‘ re - . a | i> 224 May I ask you‘for one thing. Could you provide.us with. | ) aok ae ae 24 | a picture of yourself about. the yedr 1963? If you are like i ae ~— ae : ime, you. probably’ only have. those. high ‘school pictures available? a 4 HY 50955 DBocld: 32277212 Page 107
65 Mr. Phillips. Generally speaking, sir, spies don''t. | keep a lot of pictures of themselves; but..I. have one of them | in a Nawy tiniform in Mexico City about that time when I was ae tar i it.is about 1963, and I can. provide the Committee with that... Mr. Preyer. . Thank you. | i | | i | | - a | inea play, and. I was playing the. part of a Naval officer,'and Se | } | & €2N2) S5nN-239n5 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. “Chairman, excuse me. I would like to. = f Anterrupes Before t forget, =. would like to have the | J 7 | photograph. we “showed Mr. “PHALlips marked as. ‘JFK Exhibit 104. | : 10 | and introduced ‘into the ‘record. | 2 i Mr. Preyer. Without objection, that is ordered, admitted | 5 [ ane in the record. re ! , ! . 5 | OO (The. document: referred to was marked o = ra oe as JFK Exhibit No. 104 for | : is | “ddentification.) | = | Mr. Preyer. We appreciate very much your appearing here. A | today, Mr. Phillips, and at this time we will exé¢use you, : : 3 and I hope we haven't inconvenienced you too much. We. | | : 2 | appreciateyyouraarranging your schedule to be here today.~ 5 | The Committee will recess at this time until 9:00 o'clock’ | tomorrow morning in room 1310 6f the Longworth Building. an (Whereupon, at.6:08 o'clock p.m., the Subcommittee recessed, t ! i H | to reconvene at 9:00 o'clock a.m.3,Wednesday ,. April.26, 1978.) 2s | | i -— - | 4: ‘ f SOMPATUY | 0 BW 50955 BDocld: 32277212 Page 106