\ El HW 53716 DoclId: 32404704 Paye 17 -~ 1h - The Fifth, I do not remember. The Sixth Special Department -- perlustration of correspondence. Well, what other departments? The Komesdant Department. Oh, yes, the Administrative-Supply Department, KhozU; the Medical Department was part of it. What other departments and directorates? t i? The Komesdant ... yeS «.-. Yes, the department -- I will tell you now ... what was it called? Department "K" -- this department handled counterintelligence in atomic industry and at all enterprises connected with uranium mining. What other departments? ((Pause.)) That is all; I do not remember more. . We are talking about the time when the MVD already had been organized, after STALIN's death. Yes, yes, yes. Well, let us repeat -- what did the First Special Department do? I think ... I do not insist ... to my thinking, that was "Records", because now it is called the Records-Archives Department. What was the First Special Department called under the MGB, before the death of STALIN? I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. Department "A"? No... I do not remember. Look; why do I say Department "A"? Because -- look; you fill out requests for checks or agents, and there were old requests, where it was written, "Department 'A'", with a red stripe across ee
A. A. B. DoclId: 327404704 Page 13 And the Second Special Department -- what was it called? That is what 1t was called -- the Second Special Department. Well, in the MGB. I do not know this; I do not know. The Third? I do not know. | The Fourth? I do not know, I do not know. The Fifth? I also do not know. The Sixth? I do not know, I do not know. Well, what other directorates were there? There were no other directorates. And to what did GULAG belong at that time? (?I understand you?) The Convoy Troops (Konvoynyye Voyska); but when I came in there was none. GULAG -- Chief Directorate of Camps. I do not know. There was none. I do not know. And what happened to the Border Troops? Ah ... That is right -- the Border Troops! exactly: For a period of time, they were in the MVD. We are talking now of that period, and it is not important where they were. Both of them ... Chief Directorate ....
1 Ae Neaahsmcte eter A Paterna Docld:32404704 Page 19., The Border Troops? Right. - What happened to the Internal Troops? ( (Long pause.)) I have not heard about them since 1953. Well, where were they in 1953? Well, they were in the MGB system, but I do not know where. What -- you have not heard about then since 19537 They and their decorations were written up in the newspapers. Well, I do not know. When I was working, there were none of these oc. How is it you do not know? They exist even now. They write about them openly in the newspapers. Not in the KGB, not in the KGB. I do not know... in the MVD, put not in the KGB. Well, where were they in 1953? What happened to them? I do not insist upon this, put I think, I think that GULAG and the Convoy Troops were given over to the MVD after the MGB -- to my thinking, but IT am not sure. But we are talking about 1953; everything in the MVD was lumped together. There was no place to which to transfer them there was no KGB as yet. I do not know, I do not know; I do not remember; I do not know. What happened to the Prisons Dire ctorate (Tyuremnoye Upravleniye), where your friend, Amayak ((KOBULOV)), was Chief? i
Hw -“ -17- ((pause. )) I do not know. There was no Prisons Directorate during my time. ((Pause.)) You see how you are talking ... "When Amayak was Chief" -- well, when was this? If Amayak in January 1953, also was working in GUSIMZ? It means it was in 1950 ... maybe in 1949, 1948, 1945, 1946. For your information, Amayak was Chief of the Prisons Directorate up to the time BERIYA was arrested. If you worked there, you must know. I know that he was arrested ... Amayak. Everyone knows that he was the Chief of the Prisons Directorate. Every dog knows that; there was no secret about it. TI do not know. And it is nonsense that he last worked in GUSIMZ. My friend? TI aaw nim only once. You tried to prove «++. No, I was not proving «-+ I simply was saying that I had seen hin. Well, do you remember any other directorates? I do not know. What happened to GUSHOSDOR? Do you know what GUSHOSDOR is? I have heard of GUSHOSDOR, put it was not there in my tiem. If it was not there in your time, where is it now? ( (Long pause.)) I do not know, I do not know. In the system of ..- I know that in the Militia system... right now ..+- f
Hw 33216 B. - 18 - We will talk about the Militia as the next question. Where was the Militia when you started working in the MVD? (2It was combined?) it was in the MVD. The MGB was combined. Where was the Militia? In the MVD. Where was the Chief Directorate of Militia located at that time? ' t ((Long pause.)) I do not know exactly; I do not know, I do not know. I only know that there is a huge building on the street where the telegraph . office is. Well, everyone knows thet -- it is in the telephone directory; I am asking where it was in 1953. I do not know, I do not know. ((Pause.)) Well, you worked there. When did the Militia move to Ogarev Street? Tt was there, on Ogarev, in 1953. For your information, no. Do you remember any other directorates there? No. Must. I always remind you? I do not know; I told you what I know. This again, shows that your knowledge is too scanty. I cannot help you here; I am telling you what I know. ((Pause.)) There is only one thing I have not yet mentioned: in 1953, there was -- during BERTYA's time -- there was the Inspectorate (Inspektsiya). _ Well, we will write "Ingpectiorate" -- there was such 4 thing. Yes, yes; headed by RAYKHMAN.
SEC - 19 - A. What happened to RAYKHMAN? B. He was arrested. A. Is he alive, or was he executed? B. Well, he is alive, alive. A. What else was there? B. Ido not know any more. 4 A. What happened to the Directorate of the Safekeeping of State Treasures; under what number was it, and what did it do? B. I do not know, I do not know. A. Was there a Secretariat? B. Yes, there was the Secretariat. A. Who was the Chief of the Secretariat? B. Ido not know. A. During BERIYA's time? B. I do not know, I do not know. A. Before BERIYA? B. I also do not know. A. After BERIYA? B. ((Pause.)) I know only DOBROKHOTOV. What year was it »- 1955, 1954? There was DOBROKHOTOV. A. Was there also a Party Committee? B. This is not a directorate. A. Put this also de in the MVD; right? HW 532716 DBocld:32404704 Page 22 oa
A. - 20- No, no; I do not remember. If you will let me, I will begin from this end, from the most recent years. Approximately from 1962 -- VLASENKO. From 1959 to 1962 -- MARFUNIN. There were two men before MARFUNIN, I know: SERGEYEV, YARTSEV. That is all. In what years they were there, I do not know. There were two men before 1959 -- YARTSEV and SERGEYEV. In 1959 -- MARFUNIN, and in 1962 -- VLASENKO. MARFUNIN? MARFUNIN; he formerly was the Deputy Chief of the Fourth Directorate. But was there a Komsomol Committee? There was a Komsomol Committee. Who were the Secretaries? I do not remember, I do not know. What other directorates were there? I do not know. Who was Chief of the First Chief Directorate when you entered? I do not know, I do not know; I do not remember. Well, whom do you remember to have been 4 Chief of the First Chief Directorate? SAKHAROVSKIY, when he became ((Chief)). And when did he become Chief? I do not know, I do not know; I have no idea (XG); he was not in in 1953, but who was, I do not know. Who was his Deputy at that time when he was Chief? Docld: 32404704 Page 23 , oe
HW 53716 B. A. DoclId: 32404704 Page 24 ((Long pause.)) I remember one name for those years; it must have been KOROTKOV ..e- FEDOSEYEV was a Deputy, until the arrest of BERIYA. For your information .... You know exactly that SAKHAROVSKIY was not Chief at that time. I tell you that I do not remember when he was; I do not know. I told you that I do not know who was the Chief of the First Directorate in 1953. Neither FEDOSEYEV nor KOROTKOV were Deputies at that time. FEDOSEYEV -- before the arrest of BERIYA -- was the Deputy Chief of the First Directorate. He was not -- he was there, but he was not the Deputy. Further, who was the Chief of the Second Chief Directorate? FEDOTOV. Who was his Deputy? SHUBNYAKOV, GRIBANOV, LYALIN. The Chief of the Third Directorate? I do not remember. I remember, from GUSKOV's time; GUSKOV became ... when? Later, later; who the chief was, I do not know, I do not remember. The Fourth Directorate? T also do not know who was the Chief; I do not know. The Fifth Directorate? I also do not know. The Sixth Directorate. I know that MIL'SHTEYN was Chief of the Sixth before the arrest of BERIYA. A real Russian name:
HW 53216 DoclId: 327404704 Page 25 -~ 22 2 He is a Jew. The Seventh Directorate? Around 1954, it was DOBRYNIN, DOBRYNIN. _ Well, who was, When you came to work? I do not remember, I do not remember. When I came to work sees Please understand ME sees How could I be interested at that time? I was a new employee; I was introduced to new WOLK cos I could not figure it out. Well, if you had been there only one year, I would not ask; but because you insist you worked there for 11 years ..-+ You do not have to study these things -~ it comes by itself; you look through documents, and even if you do not know you nevertheless would find out. You' worked, there , and you know how many changes took place there. Who was the Chief of the Eighth Directorate? I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. The Ninth? After BERIYA's death, USTINOV. After BERIYA's death or his arrest? After the arrest, after BERIYA's arrest --~ USTINOV. The Tenth? Kremlin Commandant Lt. Gen. VEDENIN. When did he become ((Chief))? I do not know. Are you sure it was the Tenth Directorate? eer
It seems, the Tenth. Later, not too long ago ... a few years, it came under the Ninth Directorate -- this Komendant Directorate. It was never the Tenth. The Tenth; it was the Tenth; maybe, of course, somewhat later than 1953, but I remember this directorate. Who was Chief of Investigations? I do not remeniber ; I do not know. Who was Chief of the First Special Department? I do not know. Of the Second? Before BERIYA's arrest, KARASEV. Then? Then, ZABOLOTNYY. Then? And most recently, ZAKHARCHENKO Of the Third? At one time, it was Lt Gen BEL'CHENKO. In 1953? I do not know, I do not know. Of the Fourth? I do not know. The Fifth? I do not know. The Sixth?
HW 53716 A. A. DoclId: 327404704 Page 2?7 SECRET - ok. From the end of 1953, SHCHIKOCHIKHIN; from the end of 1953. And when you came in? Ido not remember, I do not know. Most recently, SHCHIKOCHIKHIN. Where did he come from? He was in the Second Chief Directorate in 1953 -- Secretary of the Party organization. Who was head of the Secretariat? I do not remember, I do not know. You said RAYKHMAN was Chief of the Inspectorate. RAYKHMAN. Who was Chief of KhozU? I do not remember, I do not remember. chiet of the Komandant Department? I think it was always BROVKIN, Col BROVKIN. Department "K"? It. was General ... it was Colonel IVANOV, IVANOV. Later, he became a major general. Who was Chief of GULAG? I do not know, I do not know. Who was Chief of the Border Troops? + MASLENNIKOV. What happened to MASLENNIKOV? He shot himself. And then who became Chief?
HW 532716 DoclId:327404704 Page 2765 ~ 25 T cannot say for sure, but after MASLENNIKOV, it was ZYRYANOV. i Who was the Chief of the Internal Troops? IT do not know. The Chief of the Prisons Directorate? I do not know, I do not know. GUSHOSDOR? ' Ul I do not know, I do not know. Who was the Chief of the Militia? I do not know, I do not remember. You still cannot say who was the Chief of the Secretariat? No, no. When did DOBROKHOTOV become ((Chief))? I think, in 1954, at the beginning of 1955. Where did he come from? From the CC (( CC CPSU)). Did he come directly from the CC? I heard that he had worked in the CC. Well, when did he work there? Before coming to the organs ((of State Security)). Of course, he was working before the organs. But if he came to be head of the Secretariat in 1954 or 1955, where was he before that? In the cc. LD oe. ser?
mo rer rs aE — oO. e : 1 i ep BS nN ve 1 BB tL, A. Well, that is not correct. ((Pause.)) You have named the Secretary of the Party Committee for me. Do you not remember the Secretary of the Komsomol Committee? B. I do not remember. A. Who was chief of the Medical Department? B. Maj Gen Med Serv NOVIKOV, NOVIKOV. A. Then? B. I think, then and up to now, KHTTROVO, KHITROVO. A. Who was chief of the Transportation Directorate, Department? B. Up to the arrest of BERIYA it was MIL'SHTEYN. A. I am talking about the Transportation Department of the Khozu. B. Oh, I do not know this; I do not know, I do not know. A. Into what departments was KhozU divided? B. Ido not know, I do not know; I eannot ... I know the Finance Department, the Medical Department .... I do not know. A. Who was Chief of the Judicial Bureau under the Minister at that time? .B. I do not know. A. Did you ever hear of it? B. I do not remember. A. Think of some other department. ((Pause.)) Who was Chief of the Special Court (Osoboye Soveshchaniye )? B. I do not know. A. What did they do with Special Bureau No. 1 (("Spetsbyuro" -~ Executive Action)) in 19532: HET HW 532716 DBocld:32404704 Page 29 cd asin sede NRE eB
HW 53716 B. A. B. oo A. DoclId: 327404704 Page 30 ro sos ER A a . SECRET ~ 27 - I do not know what the "Special Bureay" is. Did you never hear of it? Special Bureau No. 1? No, I do not know it. What happened to the Search (Rozyskhoye ) Directorate? I do not know, I do not know. Perhaps you can remember some other departments and directorates. ' No, I told you what I know. Well, if we are to believe you, the First Special Department handled archives, etc.; where was it located? I used to have to go to the First Special Department, on Kirov Street «ee for a check. This check is -- so to say, not for an agent, but a check of the records. What kind of record? If there are any files or compromising materials on someone or other. And it still is on Kirov Street. Where on Kirov Street? At the very beginning of Kirov Street, if you go from Dzherzhinskiy Square on Kirov Street, on the left side of the street on which Building No. 2 is, Well, please tell me, if you know —-~ where was the First Bpecial Department located? Give me an answer; if you do not know, say so. I told you what I know. It is not entirely right. How -- not entirely right?
HW 553216 - 28 - This is where the checks were made on everyone. On Kirov Street, through the First Special Department. On the agent, in Building No. 2, downstairs; room 101, in the basement. Now, the exit files were at Entrance No. 2, Building le .... A case is being examined; well, let us say you have a man .... Yes. ».. Whom you are supposed to check on whether there are any compromising materials on him -- he was born in Moscow; he lived in the Soviet Union; he went abroad several times on business, and he is not a KGB employee, but an ordinary Soviet government employee. Where would you check him out? You have to find out all the compromising materials on him. Well, on Kirov Street, you request a check. Well, I say -- he was born in the Soviet Union, in Moscow; he went abroad. several times; he is a loyal Soviet citizen. For some reason, you have to check .... All of the checks and indices in the Archives were made on Kirov Street, with the exception of those on the agents, having a red band, which were checked in the basement of Building No. @. And where else could a check be made? In the Militia. Why in the Militia? For what? T do not know. ‘eer sews WEEE the Melitta? wears att aay aanvisees- \, \) att He Waa
PRET OR A. Well, how could you work, to check people, if you did not know where the Archives on the convicts were? B. Ido not know. I will tell you only that, until 1953, when I came in, there were so many checks, different checks, that -- God knows. From 1953, until most recently I wrote out only one check. Well, later ... well ... to check through the First Special Department of the MVD and the UAO of the KGB. That is all; ,;that is the only check. On one sheet, if you want to, you can write out two at one time; one to the First Special Department and to the UAO. And the ‘second check, on agents. Earlier, there had been many checks, different checks; many. Because when you look through the old files on agents -- God knows what kind of checks there were .... A. Please -- let us not make things up; what you are saying was so, up to 1947; this is not the way it was in 1953, for your information. You worked there for ll years; you handled checks, particularly, in the early days; earlier, you said that you were doing only checks, and so forth. I gave you the example of a man, a Moscow resident, who was born in Moscow and who went abroad several times, sent by the Soviet government; it is not important to which countries -- the United States, England, or Austria, Germany, Sweden; anywhere -- and you had to check him, check him out. B. I wrote out a check, one copy,to the First Special Department, and to the Records-Archives Department; this is one check, one sheet. The second ((kind of check)) is in the agent network. You yourself do not carry this check; you give it to the secretary, and for the agents .... A. The second, for the agents; well, further? B. That is all. ~ You can make a check like this, also -- we checked in another way; we called the Seventh Directorate .... KUDESYBV or DBYBV ..- they had a big card file. HW 532716 DBocld:32404704 Page 32 SECRE
IGEN I poe SECRET Well, you can phone the Address Bureau) if you do not know the address, but know the surname, first name and patronymic and the year of birth .... - Well, I do not want to go into such detail. Let us say that you know the address, you know the day of birth. Then I write out the check. é I cannot understand in any way -- do you not want to say, or do you indeed not know the simplest things; you cannot even check the most simple person alive. ' I told you how I did it. It just cannot be the way you told me, and it never was, there is an entirely different procedure. The one thing you said was about the First Special Department, and you mixed up even that. The way you explained it, a man who does not know about it would not under- stand a thing .... ((Pause.)) I will give you another problem -- to check Mr. SMITH who works in the American Embassy; he received a visa and arrived to take up the permanent position of First, Second, or Third Secretary or whatever you wish. Now, check him out. I write out a check to the UAO -- that is one; and I write out a second, because perhaps he had been in the Soviet Union earlier and had worked here; and the second, I write to the POU ((Pervoye Glavnoye Upravlaniye, the First Chief Directorate )). Well, what is in the PGU? It is called the Operational Records Department; the First Chief Directorate has its own archives. Well, what do you get from there? Perhaps there is some data on him in the Archives, in the records of the First Chief Directorate. DoclId:327404704 Page 353 2B
4 { HW (53216 B. A. What kind of data is there? Well, perhaps he was put under surveillance somewhere, or maybe his name is in some files. Well, in 1953, you were working on checking; you worked with the files mostof the time, etc.; where were the Archives of the PGU at that time -- let us say in 1953, 1954? I cannot Bay for sure -- in 1953 the Archives were near the Exhibition; they had a building there near the Exhibition. Later -- I cannot say which year for sure: in 1955 ... they were at Kisel'nyy Street (pereulok); and, most recently, on Kisel'nyy Street in the same building as the Higher School. Well, who was the chief of this department? I do not know, I do not know. From what time, I do not know -- the chief was ZAYTSEV. Continue further, you checked him in the First Special Department and the PGU; what next? That is the entire check. Please -- I do not want to give you 4 lecture about checking; if you know, tell me. If you do not know, do not say anything. I told.you what I know. Well, alright -- you ask me, and I answer what I know. We will go back a little -- when BERIYA took over the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the MGB and the KGB were combined, what were the First and Second Chief Directorates? I do not know what they were. There was and existed, before the First Chief Directorate, the Committee for Information; I know that FEDOTOV was Chief of the Committee for Information. Well, he never was Chief. Stree DocId: 327404704 Page 34
AL HW 532716 DBoctId Well, he worked in the Committee for Information. There is a difference. He worked in the Committee for Information, but in what position...? You do not know exactly whet the First and Second Chief Directorates were before the death of STALIN? I do not know, I do not know. You do not have any idea; have you never heard ... I know there was a Second Directorate, but, before the death of STALIN, in 1950, 1951, 1952, it had departments: 2-Z, 2-I, 2-Zh, 2-A, 2-B, 2-Ye, o-G .... I have heard that. Later, I would like to -- I want to ask you about this, later ... I want to know from where you know this. If you know about this, then you must know about what I am asking you -- what were the First and Second Chief Directorates before the death of STALIN? Well, BERIYA took power. If you know about 2-I, 2-2, etc. .... No, I simply heard that there were such departments -- 2-Z .... - I am talking about what was just before the death of STALIN. I do not know, I do not know. I can say that it is impossible for me to believe that you worked for the “MVD in 1953, 1954, because you cannot explain to me the simplest things | which one ran into every day. I told you what I know, and how I knew it. Of course, if you take a man -- for example, me -- who worked there in 1953, 1954, or one who already had worked there for ten years and who had experienced all of the reorganizations, etc. Well, you worked there for 10-ll years, also. 2132404704 Page 35
Se ee Coe Se ro fo B. What? A. You also worked there for 10-11 years. B. Well, since 1953. A. Well, I am asking about 1953. B. I told you what I remember, what I know. A. But, when I ask you some questions, I do not delve so deeply as you should know if you were a case officer in the American Department. One could put a thousand questions, and I am simply touching the high spots. B. I am replying just the way I remember. A. Well, what you have said -- although there is a percentage of truth in it -- does not confirm that you were a real employee who was working there. ((Pause; A signals the guards and asks B: )) Do you want coffee or something else? B. Thank you. A. Do you drink it black? B. Black. A. Of course, if we are going to continue like this, it will take us a very long time. I do not think that you will be very happy, if I begin to ask gvery question in detail; and, you answer "I do not know" or "I do not remember", of course, this will confirm the more that you were not there. I want all the talk to lead to the following, when I remind you to think over one question or another -- I seriously want you yourself to come to some ‘ conclusion and begin to speak about the way it really was. B. How strangely you put it: A. I am not putting it strangely. I am a very patient and calm person in this respect and, of course, when a person does not know what he is talking about or knows only the superficialities -. not as a former employee should know -- I do not have any particular desire t be H sos HW 532716 DBocld: 32404704 Page 36
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404704 Page 37 delve deeper into these questions, because your answers do not give proof, since you do not know the ABC's. Even if you did not work there, ((you should know that)) then all of the employees of the First and Second Chief Directorates - of course, after STALIN died -- were happy with what had been done at that time with the First and Second Chief Directorates -- you understand: this is a question that everyone knows about. I do not know this. o. 1 After that, there was discussion of it for an entire year, for a whole year, Now, what ... what happened? I do not know. You mentioned once that IGNAT'YEV had been Minister .... Yes, yes. Well, let us begin with IGNAT'YEV -- who were his deputies? Well, I was not working then; I do not know who were his deputies .... . Well, then, listen -- you worked there ll years after IGNAT'YEV. He left, and BERIYA came in, and you began to work. Yes. Of course, you read the papers -- there were orders, instructions, discussions; this man was imprisoned, that man was fired, and so on and so on. I am telling you absolutely honestly what I remember and how I remember it. Maybe if ... maybe I could remember something else, something more ... but I do not know now what more to tell you. ((Guard brings coffee. )) You know that after BERIYA took power, as usual, meetings were held in each directorate, department, and they criticized IGNAT'YEV and his Deputies, etc.; they were called all kinds of names.
I These are things that you should know; this was logical, and it was so. You cannot even tell about these simple things -- what it was, and what kind 1 of explanation was given. I am not asking you why they removed IGNAT'YEV; this was not, so to say, our or your business. B. Well, I heard -- there was RYUMIN, GOGLIDZE; but I do not know, I do not know. A. Did they also execute GOGLIDZE? B. Yes. A. Did they also shoot RYUMIN? B. He was arrested, not with BERIYA's group ~- he was arrested before. A. They shot him, also? B. Yes. A. Well, who else? GOGLIDZE never was Deputy Minister. B. He was in the Third Directorate. I heard there was such a person -- TSANAVA; he was & Minister of the MGB in Belorussia; at one time he had worked in Moscow. Whether he was there in IGNAT'YEV's time, I do not know. But the most powerful man, of course, was Lt Gen VLASIK. Why VLASIK? B. The Guards Directorate. > Why VLASIK, here? B. Why? Well, you are asking me; I am answering, telling you what names I heard. si A. We are talking about IGNAT'YEV and his deputies; VLASIK never was @ Deputy. Spciayiatien eit B. He was not a Deputy, but he was Chief of the Guards (Okhrana). kets A. What did they do with him? 5216 DocId: 327404704 Page 33
~ 36 - B. ((No answer. )) A. TSANAVA, what happened to him? B. I do not remember, I do not remember. A. What happened to VLASIK? B. He was removed right after the death of STALIN. A. Please, if you do not know, do not make up something. B. I am telling you what I heard. A. Well, who else? B. ((Long pause.)) No answer. A. Did you ever hear of the GRU MGB? B. Yes, in the old files, there is "GRU MGB". A. What does that mean? B. Most likely it was what you have in mind -- the First and Second Directorates ... work against foreigners. A. Who was the chief of the GRU ((MGB))? B. I do not. know. A. Can you not explain what the GRU is? B. Ido not know; it was before my time. A. What -- you cannot explain to me? This took place right at that time ... why was the First Directorate called the Second Directorate; and the Second, the First? B. This was a very short period of time .... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) A. .. Not correct; you are mistaken. HW 53216  Docld:32404704 | Page 39 cee 82 cesar Tb wab Ret cence cat 7 Saeed atti aan tH!
HW ,33216 A. A. DoclId:327404704 Page 40 SME A, OTe ETROR ETIRN Hot NN ToS nme me em ik IT SLED A BOMETR ANI TNR CPPS] PR BEEN RTE TES TAA aul TE OR NRE EL TE ca Prema fer coy cr cena nea SECRET This is another confirmation that you were not working there at that time. ((No reply. )) Let us begin with the following. Yes. BERIYA was arrested; all of his lieutenants were arrested. Who became Minister? KRUGLOV. Are you sure of that? KRUGLOV. What happened to him? - To KRUGLOV? Yes. Later? He again went to the MVD ... then, he was removed as Minister; and, later, I heard that he was not working anywhere and even had been kicked out of the Party. Well, why did they throw him out? I do not know; I have no idea. Well, there was a special letter from the CC CPSU when KRUGLOV was relieved; this letter was for the information of Communists and employees of the MVD and the KGB; did you hear about it? No; I do not remember this letter; no. When KRUGLOV was Minister, who were his Deputies? I also do not know. Well, it is very difficult to believe that you worked there, when you do not remember the Deputies.
HW 532916 B. A. B. DoclId: 327404704 Page 41 I do not remember. ce Think about it. ((Long pause.)) I think SEROV was a Deputy. You could know more exactly: SEROV ... who else? ((Long pause.)) I heard the name, ROMASHKOV. What? ROMASHKOV. Who was ROMASHKOV? He was a deputy to KRUGLOV. ROMASHKOV? Yes. How long was he there? Well, during KRUGLOV's time. Well, how long was KRUGLOV Minister? After BERIYA's arrest, how long was he Minister? About a year. Well, when was BERIYA arrested? In June 1953, the 27th ... no, he ((was arrested)) on the 26th .... ((In English)) OK; well, the 26th, 27th. KRUGILOV became the Minister. For how long? To the end of 1954, when SEROV became Chairman of the Committee ((for State Security )). Well, when was the Committee organized? At the end of 1954, at the end of 1954, or at the beginning of 1955.
mE. HW 53716 A. DoclId: 327404704 Page 42 5 eT - 39 - 8 I cannot accept as valid coin ... you must know these simple things, such as when the KGB was organized. I do not remember. T am telling you the way I remember it. Now really, would I hide something from you or make some ....? To make such a mistake -- by an entire year -- is stupid; right? I am not asking when the Fifth Section of the Seventh Department in the Seventh Directorate was organized: I do not ask a question like that. T do not. know that at all. You worked there, and yet you say that you do not remember when KGB was organized?.... ... In 1954, at the end of 1954, the beginning of 1955 .... . To make mistake of a whole year ... this ((1955)) is not correct, you know. Well, who else was Deputy to KRUGLOV? I do not remember. If you asked me who was in the First Department, that would be another matter; that is something I know very well, because I ran into these people, and .... One also should know the names of the chiefs; right? Of the chiefs, I knew ... who there? FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich, ((and)) SHUBNYAKOV. Oh, FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich ... poor old man; no doubt he is turning over in his grave. Do you know he is dead? Well, between us, what do you know that is unusual, which all of the employees knew about FEDOTOV? Petr Vasil'yevich? Yes; something that was unusual.
-ho- B. Well, what unusual thing do I know about FEDOTOV? I know that MOLOTOV thought well of him; apparently, this was tree A. This is not unusual. B. Something unusual; he was married more than once -~ he was married to a young blonde; I never saw her. He has two grown children -- a daughter and a son -- but this is not unusual. _A. Many people, high officials, divorced their wives and married others, and so forth; in Soviet society, this is not news. At the same time here ((in the USSR)), particularly when there are 20 million women more, it is easy to choose. Well, what others ((Deputies)) were there? You should know. Some people you cannot’ avoid. Well, BERIYA was arrested; KRUGLOV became Minister; you named,’ as his Deputies, SEROV, ROMASHKOV; who else was there? E B. I do not remember; honestly, I do not remember, : A. How many Armenians were fired after the arrest of KOBULOW? B. I do not know how many; but, in 1953, when I had just come in, there were some people fired -- they were firing people. In the First Department, so many women were working, all of the women were fired, Then, there were all kinds of AYVOZOVs ((typical Armenian name )), and so on, and so on; none of them were left. Jews were fired. A. Well, in 1953, there already were no Jews; if there were, they were only those. whom BERIYA took in, B. No, there were still Jews around; they were in the Second Directorate. A. Well, anyway, who else was a Deputy Minister? B. I do not remember, HW 532716 DBocld:32404704. Page 43
we Be cr -ki. Well, it is interesting for me to know what force is preventing you from talking about what really was there. Well, I am telling you what was really there, what I remember. Well, maybe I can remember some other things, but they do not come to mind, they do not come to mind. | You see -- perhaps I have such a strange memory. I can tell so many things about what they talk about at the top, what I heard about so many people; but, right now, I cannot. If we take the newspapers for those years ... about such-and-such, about so-and-so ... you understand. I think you see ... I am asking you ... not all of this was written in the newspapers. Well, uh ... yes ... no... You see a name ina newspaper, and right away you can ...., The names of KRUGLOV and SEROV are known to thw whole world. Of course, in intelligence circles FEDOTOV is known very well; to others, he means nothing. Absolutely. ((Pause.)) Well, just as the question was -- "Well, had you heard, before you worked for the MVD, did you hear the name --» let us say ... GRIBANOV?" I never heard it. "FEDOTOV?" I never knew about him and never heard of him. I believe that. If you did not work there, it could be that you never heard of him, But, if ... you were their agent, you might have heard of him, Who knows? It happens that way. ((Pauge. )) Well, who else was there? KRUGLOV, SEROV, ROMASHKOV; who else? I do not remember, HW 532716 DBoclId:32404704 Page 44
HW 53216 A. A. I do not know. Of the Second Chief Directorate? FEDOTOV. Of the Third? ‘I do not remember. Of the Fourth? ‘ I also do not remember. Of the Fifth? I also do not remember. Of the Sixth? The Sixth -- YEGOROV; YEGOROV was there until the end, up to 1959 -- YEGOROV. We have in mind Transportation? Yes, yes, yes; YEGOROV. ((In English.)) OK. Of the Seventh? DOBRYNIN. Of the Eighth? I do not know. A general was; then, since 1955, 1956; Of the Ninth? USTINOV. Where did he come from? LYALIN was. DoclId: 327404704 Page 46
B. From the Party; he was a Party worker. og After BERIYA's arrest, they put him in the Guards; later, he again was taken to do Party work, and then they sent him to be an Ambassador to one of the people! s democratic countries. A. Well, further -- who was Chief of KhozU? B. I do not remenber. A. Of Investigations? B. I do not remenber. A. Of the Inspectorate? B. It ceased to exist after the arrest of BERIYA. A. The Border Troops? B. MASLENNIKOV; after MASLENNIKOV, ZYRYANOV. A. The Internal Troops? B. I do not know. A. The Militia? B. There were many in the Militia -- ABRAMOV, IOSIFOV, many. A. Well, many, many ; who was Chief of Militia when KRUGLOV was Minister? B. I do not remember. I know that, in the Militia, ABRAMOV, IOSIFOV, and STAKHANOV were working. A. What have we left out so far? Who was Chief of the Kommendant Department? B. I only remember BRDOVKIN. A. Who was Chief of Department "K'"? B. IVANOV. He was, until the end, when the department was combined. SEURET HW 532716 DBoclId:32404704 Page 47
B. HW 532716 _ 6  e SECRET -~ 45 - and GULAG? There already was no GULAG. Well, it was there; it did not disappear. If it was there, then it was in the MVD; I do not know, Well, at that time, there was only one Ministry. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. The Prisons Directorate? I do not know. The First Special Department? I do not know. The Second? ZABOLOTNYY became ((Chief)). The Third? There was BEL'CHENKO. The Fourth? I do not know. The Fifth? I do not know. The Sixth -- SHCHIKOCHIKHIN. The Chief of the Secretariat? After KRUGLOV, DOBROKHOTOV. Well, under KRUGLOV? I do not know. The Judicial Bureau? - I do not know. | SE DoclId: 327404704 Page 465
a ap | A. The Special Court? There was none. Why not? There was, at one time .... Well, what else was there under KRUGLOV? ((Long pause; no reply.)) You understand yourself how little you know, for one to believe that you worked there. -.. For a case officer who had just come to work there, who had just begun ..., He would come across all the names; he writes papers, works with files, meets agents; he reports to the chiefs, attends operational, Komsomol and Party ° meetings and conferences; every day, he goes to work in Building No. 2, No. 12, and others; he must know something. But your knowledge is not that of a case officer, but of a man who simply dropped in there and came out. ((Long pause; no reply.)) I would like to find the explanation for this problem. Who held the meeting in the Second Chief Directorate after the arrest of BERIYA, when they explained why he had been arrested? I do not remember. I do not remember that such a meeting was held for the whole directorate, Can you give me a version which you heard or know of how BERIYA was arrested? Yes, what I know. I said "version" because there were so many rumors, and there still are. BERIYA was arrested at a meeting of the Presidium CC, formerly the Politbyuro. It was entirely unexpected for him. The meeting was on a Friday, and he was arrested by the military. Marshal KONEV took part; I do not know who else. (XG) I heard ... I only heard that KHRUSHCHEV, BULGANIN and others were afraid to talk about BERIYA in their offices, fearing "bugs" (tekhnika).
® Sor | CE LI ARE SE TET ES TIE TE sea ar 8S, A. Probably they were right. B. And I also heard that "bugs" were set up in BERIYA's place by Army men, Army specialists, not from the Second Special Department, of course. ((xG; A and B speak at the same time. )) | But I do not know where -- in his office or somewhere else -- but the "bugs" were used. On the same night -- it already was in the evening on Friday -- the KOBULOVs, DEKANOZOV, GOGLIDZE and others were arrested. A. Have you heard the name, MAMULOV? B. Yes, yes. He was also a Deputy; he worked in the MGB. He was from Georgia ((the Georgion SSR)), BERIYA's man. A. ‘Where was he at that time? B. Ido not know, I do not know. A. And what wad DEKANOZOV doing at that time? B. DEKANOZOV was working in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. A. Are you sure? B. No, I am not sure; I know that he worked, but .... A. Well, he was working .... Under BERIYA, he didmt work there; he did something else. B. I cannot say exactly. And DEKANOZOV -- they even arrested him -- he flew in, and they arrested him right at the airport; well, I heard such details. From where did he fly, from Georgia, or? ... I do not know, A. Well, if you know, tell me. B. Iam telling you that DEKANOZOV was arrested right at the airport, as he came off the plane. HW 532716 DBocld:32404704 Page 50
PeRRED BES ie ot 4 HW 453216 A. DoclId: 327404704 Page 51 eR a. ta neo ‘ ~ 48 . Do you know who, from the Second Chief Directorate .. do you remember when 7 there was an uprising in East Germany? 1956. No. Oh ... you have Germany in mind; it was earlier, earlier. In 1956, it was in Hungary, Poland. Very well, I will tell you -- it was in 1953, on 17 June. So. Who, from the Second Chief Directorate, went to Berlin at that time? I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. Well, I do not insist on this question, if you do not know, you do not know. No one went from the First Department. If you worked there, you would know exactly. I know exactly that no one went from First Department. Well, we have to go further -- KRUGLOV, SEROV, ROMASHKOV .... There is an interesting detail about ROMASHKOV. He leter -- this was in 1957 ... no, in 1958... -- he was ... he worked at one time in the CC; he is a CC worker. But, he worked in the CC at one time; then again, in the organs; again,in the CC; then, in the organs, all his life. And, in the latter period, he worked in the MVD, in the MVD. He made appearances on television. It seems he was some kind of Deputy Minister; maybe, of the MVD. This is not a rumor; it is a fact. And someone saw him, someone whom he had interrogated and who had been convicted, although not guilty; and he ((this person)) sent a letter to some big man in the CC, and this, letter served to have ROMASHKOV fired.
RAEN A EOS PR a ABRASION TE SPORE Th) a : : baat No one could help ROMASHKOV; no one could save hin. {I have in mind Minister of the MVD TIKUNOV, who was there in 1960. They could not help him in any way, and he was removed from all his posts. Who else was there? I do not remember, I do not remember. A. And what happened to STAKHANOV? B. He was Minister of Internal Affairs, after KRUGLOV. Then -- as you know -- the Ministry, of Internal Affairs of the USSR was abolished, and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the RSFSR remained. A. Yes. B. STAKHANOV was Minister for the RSFSR. A. So. B. Then he was removed and SHELEPIN's Deputy from the KGB -- TIKUNOV -- replaced him. He was Deputy to SHELEPIN in the KGB; he also was from the cc of the Party. TIKUNOV, Vadim .-.- Vadim, was Minister of the MVD and this Ministry was reorganized under TIKUMOV as the Ministry for the Preservation of Public Order. A. And who else was there between them? B. I think, after STAKHANOV, there was TIKUNOV. STANKHANOV was after KRUGLOV. A. Did you ever hear of DUDOROV? B. DUDOROV, DUDOROV -- you are right; DUDOROV, yes. After KRUGLOV, it was DUDOROV. And, after that, it was STAKHANDOV ; right. A, Well, what aid they do with DUDOROV? B. He was removed. DoclId: 327404704 Page 52
soe ce EE SE EE ES OE ORR a A. Well, where did they put him? B. I do not know where they put him; I do not know where he worked. A. And you do not know about STAKHANOV? B. No, I do not know. A. Probably there was talk in the KGB about what had happened to them. B. I do not know, I. do not know. A. And KRUGLOV --, did they put him on pension or something? B. At the beginning, they put him on pension, and then, after he was on pension, the deprived him of the pension and put him out of the Party. A. Of what did they accuse him? B. For old deeds, for old deeds, when they reviewed all the old files. A. But he helped to remove BERIYA. B. SEROV helped to remove BERIYA. _ f 8 H A. KRUGLOV also was there. If KRUGLOV hsd not helped, he would not have become Minister after BERTYA. B. ( (Long Pause.)) I do not know why KRUGLOV was removed; they even took away his. pension and put him out of the Party. A. Well, we will take a short break. . ~ B ( (BREAK) ) A. You cannot answer anything I ask of you. B. Well, understand me; I answer your questions as I can. I was thinking this way -- "Who, what kind of names did I know, not working in KGB ....” . Let us say, I heard the name of the Chief of Convoy Troops -- I heard it when I was a student -- there was Lt Gen BOCHKOV. From where ((did I hear this))? His son, Boris BOCHKOV, lived in the same house as I, on Granovskiy Street, This BOCHKOV, at one time before the war, was the Chief Prosecutor. HW 532716 DBocld:32404704 Page 53
HW 532716 I know, when I was a student in 1947-1948, this BOCHKOV was Chief of the Convoy Troops. Now, I heard ... I knew a Gennadiy NAGORNYY -NASEDKIN. NASEDKIN-NAGORNYY. He once worked with GULAG. I knew this young fellow. NASEDKIN-NAGORNYY? — This is a double name: NAGORNYY-NASEDKIN, or NASEDKIN-NAGORNYY. What was his rank? I do not know -- a general, but I do not know. This young fellow, Gennadiy, was in school with me ... in Baku .... Tt seems he was ... yes. Who is this NASEDKIN? Well, the son of this NAGORNYY -NASEDKIN. Did BOCHKOV also have a son? Yes, Boris BOCHKOV; we Lived in the same building. NASEDKIN had two sons; I did not know the other, I knew only Gennadly. BOCHOV had only one son, Boris, a pilot. What else do you remember? I am simply saying .. I am trying to answer what T recall, that which I remember, as it was. Well, there is very little, very little. I doubt you have such a poor memory «++. f Well, you know how the memory is -- you read something ... you look at it... oh, this, this, this, this, I know ... when (XG). Can you describe the first identification (udostovereniye Lichnosti) which you received when you first began to work in the MVD? It was a red book; in the center was printed the seal (gerb) of the Soviet Unie Do; Id:32404704 Page 54 SEpSEY
HW 53716 B. oo regen nmeancrmimne seen - - - OT er ae NEA ARRAN ET AG NIT FRI IN EES IRE STR PTE ue me * a ct @p - are: SE - 52 - Beneath the seal, "Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR" or “.. of the Union of SSR" was printed. Well, you can forget such details; tell me more. That is all; there is absolutely nothing more printed on it. Well, you know, there was an interesting period after the death of STALIN and before BERIYA's arrest, and then, after BERIYA's arrest and before they organized the KGB. What peculiarities were there about the identification which were noted and which everyone knew about? I do not know, I do not know. I do not know what peculiarities there were, I do not know. This is still another confirmation that you were not there at that time. Well, what ... how (xG)? If you cannot answer this question and say that youdo not‘know in any Way .... I do not know what there was that was so noticeable. Up to that time, I had no identification. I do not know, I am telling you. . But you received it as soon as you began working. Right; and I received ((that one with the inscription of)) the "Ministry of Internal Affairs". Are you sure that you received the identification for the Ministry of Internal Affairs, or did you receive one for the Ministry of State Security at that time? ((Long pause; then, speaks with uncertainty, in a low voice: )) s SP No ... Internal Affairs ... \ Anyway, what was printed on it? I do not know what you have in mind as a characteristic feature which was noted by everyone. SECRET DoclId: 327404704 Page 55 bc ttn
A. SET NT a ee I will tell you -- I have in mind a special stamp that was put in the identification at that time. ' al *t i What kind of stamp was it? : may ((Pause; no answer. )) cn crt tee tease As soon as the MVD and MGB were combined, after the death of STALIN, they put in a stamp, because the two Ministries began to run together. I do not know; I do not ember, Ido not remembex,—I_da.not remember. And, after BERIYA was arrested, another stamp was put in. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember. “Nm tenemnererear oem: Tomar tn AN am Na te NE Aa ea ct nee ne aan ine ree ee EAE ae ane SIO This cannot be forgotten in any way. I do not know. rrr Because, without that stamp, you could not get into a building. The identification might have been an identification, but they would not let you in. No stamp, no entry. I do not remember. ON race nerigetsie™ It was like this -- there were IVANOV and PETROV; they were working together in the same directorate, etc.; well, it was like a great transmigration of the people -- but, for one, they put in the stamp and he could freely enter; but the other had no stamp and no entry at all. If it was necessary, one had to order a one-time pass, despite the fact that they had an indentification for the MVD or the MGB. No; Ido not remember the stamp; I do not remember. NRO eee teeter ee TN TENN Nas wi 8 CA ARN LO EOE BLO TEENA IBID pee ee vi coe antl There were many jokes about this stamp; if you were there, you would never forget them. Vl oR Mad Uh oU.. TD da nob rememie~. 7 do woh remember. sot , * . . neal CO ne eee me oe enmenemmmurens ayte f had it; maybe not - .~ T do not remenber. af ane
46 SONAR Uy sae : ees ae ‘ i 2 EARLS Oat SPA) nein: reagan tae a Again, this is one of the reasons that it cannot be believed that you worked there at that time. Well, explain to me in detail -- what does the serial number (lichniy Znak ) a which you mentioned, mean? When did they introduce the serial number? I do not remember when they introduced it. They introduced it ... it was made from a white metal, a plate. There was a hole in it, on the left side ... "VS SSSR" -- this meant "Armed Forces (Vooruzhennyye Sily) of the USSR" -- was cut in ((i.e. into the metal)). Cut in; what else? "SSSR"; and, at the bottom, was "Ye ((E))", two zeros, and the number ((i.e., "EOO....")). Two zeros? And the number; that is all, nothing else. What was the approximate size of this plate? Like this ((illustrates.)). Well, in centimeters, approximately. The width -- 2 cms., and here, it will be 4-5; 2 ({cms.)) by 4, ot 2 by 5. Well, approximately 2 by ke Yes, by 4, by 4. Or 2 by 5? Yes. Is the name printed on it? Ws atin way ha
ve SEE 6 OPT FE Te o 5 a a a a ca cr A. Was ita simple aluminum plate? 5. At the top, there is "VS SSSR" then ... it is cut in, in black or blue wlan cut in there; and, at the bottom, there is the letter, "Ye", and the number. wee A. What does "Ye" stand for? B. That signifies the series; I had a "Ye" serial number .. I do not know ves perhaps this series was for the KGB. A. Series "Ye"; what do the two zeros stand for? ‘ B. That was the beginning of the number. A. What was your number? B. Two zeros and then... I do not remember ... 1033 ..- OF 1020 ... I do not remember ..-. Two zeros and four more numbers. ((Pause.)) This serial number is printed in the KGB identification on the left side, where the photo was; it is written in in India ink when you receive the identificiation .. your serial number is already written in. A. This is not the number of the identification? B. No, this is not the number of the identification; this is the serial number. No, no, no; the number of the identification is on the right. Before I was Deputy Chief of the section, it was "OS", and ((for those)) from ((the position of)) chief of section, or, S0 to say, deputy chief of department, here was "NS", "NS", that is right. A. Well, and the identification? B. And the number of the identification ... it was "OS" and the number of the identification, and then, later, from chief of section and deputy ehief of department, NS" and the number of the identification. A. Well, what does "0S" stand for? B. Well, probably "officer personnel (ofitserskiy Sostav)"; and "NS", probably “executive personnel”. aes Anat snrnincinmntet a A. And “KS"? i 4 HW (53216 DoclId: 32404704 Page 53
HW 53716 rae bo DoclId: 32404704 Page 59 aS aa eas ee Se acetone ent atcaerbapted errimecdaerereraies enum crucernarom amt runsericn yrinmesir mua carve memmmcneqsan seme yetcnr aff meen Te TI ig wane ad wl Uae eB bette tt ius SS eee a LEE ETT NORE ETT SRT EG Sie RAB TG Hea Well ... I say "KS" or "NS" ... I do not remember; I think it was "NS" .. "executive personnel". Well, when and why did they introduce these numbers? What is it called -- the serial number? ae Serial number. . "Serial number" or "personal tag" ("Lichniy nomer ili lichniy znak?") This is a plate. You are right '-- it is personal tag", but on it, there is the serial number, your personal number. And then, in the identification, it is written that this is not a "personal tag", but a serial number, such and such. Well, think it over -- when did they introduce them? ((Pause.)) I do not remember; in any case, not earlier than 1956 ... not earlier, not earlier, no, no. Not earlier than 1956? No, this plate ... not earlier .... ((Pause.)) I received it when I was working in the Seventh Department; this means in the period ... I was there from 1955 to 1959, something like that, in this period, but in which year -- I do not know, I do not remember. Why were these numbers introduced? How was this explained? For what were they needed? Well, they did not explain; they gave them to us -~ that is all; each of us signed for his number; a Personnel officer gave them out. Where were you instructed to keep them? Well, I kept it in my safe, but -- in general -- the idea was you had to keep it somewhere on your person with your personal documents; you had to have it with you; “you might lose it. But most of the time, it was in the safe. Look -- so many, as I, did the following: you have a Little chain; then what? =
an t tai - 57 - You have the key from the safe, a key to the room, the seal with which ee you seal the safe ...- At one time, I wore it here «++. . he A. What kind of a geal did you have? What was the number on it? B. The seal was an old one, put it had "MGB" written on it. An old seal. It seems «2+ 32D eee- SAMARIN, the Supply man, issued it. You had to sign out for it, too. There were instances in which they were Lost. A. Well, if you lose it, do they punish you and give you 4 new one? B. They give you a new one. A. Did everyone have a seal.? B. ((Pause.)) You see, the idea was that everyone had to have this seal to seal his safe; but, in practice ..- let us say you work in the Seventh Department -- there are four - five people in 4 room; everyone tried to have his own safe, but there was a shortage of small safes (avoyka). Because there were not enough small safes, there were large safes, taller ones r.. two or three people could use them. One worker or another would seal the safe. Anyone who might not have one ((a seal)) would make excused not to get one because he feared losing it. A. But did every seal have a number? B. ((Pause.)) Well, I do not know; I did not check. Of course, the seal has 4 number; in the center, there is a number. A, Was there anything else on these seals? Les) There is writing around ((the edge of it)). A. Well, what was written there? SEGREI DoclId: 327404704 Page 60
- 58 B. There ... I had an old seal ... "Ministry of State Security USSR" or of oe oe "MGB" ... "MGB SSSR", "MGB", yes, and, in the center, in the center, a f number. A. TI asked -- were there seals without numbers? ((END OF REEL # 6 (3 August 1965 Session continued on Reel #7) NO OVERLAP)) 46 Docld:327404704 Page 61