457-10014-10121 JFK Assassination System: Date: VUH2015 Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY: SSCIA RECORD NUMBER: = 157-10014-10121 RECORD SERIES: MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE-CHURCH COMMITTTEE AGENCY FILENUMBER:  07-M-27 Document Information ORIGINATOR:  SSCIA FROM: TO: ~ TITLE: DATE: 03/09/1976 PAGES: 147 SUBJECTS : SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY COMMITTEE BUSINESS DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION: — Declassified RESTRICTIONS: 1B; 1C CURRENT STATUS: — Redact DATE OF LASTREVIEW: 03/22/2000 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : CCBOX 324 v9.1 { HY 50955 Bocld: 324234509 Page i
HY i JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM Date Page 08/07/95 AGENCY RECORD NUMBER RECORDS SERIES AGENCY FILE NUMBER AGENCY INFORMATION SSCIA 157-10014-10121 MISCELLANEOUS RECORDS OF THE CHURCH COMMITTTEE 07-M-27 t i ! ORIGINATOR FROM TO TITLE DATE PAGES SUBJECTS DOCUMENT TYPE CLASSIFICATION RESTRICTIONS CURRENT STATUS DATE OF LAST REVIEW OPENING CRITERIA COMMENTS DOCUMENT INFORMATION SSCIA 03/09/76 147 | SSCSGO, METHODOLOGY COMMITTEE BUSINESS TRANSCRIPT TOP SECRET REFERRED POSTPONED IN FULL 01/05/99 CCBOX 324 i 1 { i ! | 1 xeon Woh BUR EDGED GND GNECD CMD END EES TTD ETD UTD sr. Enh SEND) RHDD DD AR utst GOSS SNS SNS) ESS meh GUSGE GSSD GUD SIGKDD SED GHEE ESD GID EPS GUND GENE END CEE GED ami Ih ENE URED NED END REN EN ER opte SR SED GUIDE SUED UES MENU! SLD SCD GON SND GS SD, EMMY EIDE ENR GINEE SEED GEER SHEED GETEP SED certs eth teh Wenty anes canes, 50955 Daoctd: 32423509 [R] ~ ITEM IS RESTRICTED Page 2?
“Unauthorized Disclosure: Su _to Criminal Sanctions: ae Hearing: held before Bs ; te “Senate: SElect: Committee: to: Study: Governmental operations: with, Respect to Intelligence Activities: . _ at ! “ os - toy . i oat wee “4 { nn ed - a . . on : HW 50955 Docld:32423509 “Page 3
fA Il: “4 pe (Chadrman of the 12): a " iw 50955 Doclda: 32423509 Page 4 Foreign & tilt | gan Orlof€. William Bader Tuesday, “i | | 1 ! Subcommittee Meeting | | | The Committee mek, purawank tec i 1 i} United States Senate, Qnerations with Pespect to. Intelligence Activities, Subcemmittse) nresicing, Colorado, and Mathias. | t ' ' 4 Present: Senators Hudileston. t i tynn Davis. A presiding. Hart of Hicenova. Charles Kirkow. Ellict Maxwell. Elizabeth Culbreth, % | tt | -  sAJen present: Willinm Miller, Staff Director: Joseph | | . - : 4 | a Lomhard. Rick Inderfurth. Pech Kelley. Grea|Treverton. Jim Inhnaton and Brith Snider. vrofessioneal Skhaff Memharr. SECRET H : ee Se) ocrt Committee to Study Gevernmental - Washingten, D.C. 5 notice, at 10°39 o’a@lock am. in Room S-497, the Canitol, Senator Walter D. iHuddleston. Muanbeck, Charles | | een enccenesennine 5 minnie
Hv 50955 + ad 7 ad t, jt te it af i ; i nt on ll pe i t i nt i {A - t 14 ‘ 4 Tes t i ey 4 : i mer Docld: 32473509: Page 5 nedotiated with them yet... | | | | | Pava Re a 4 ra s “he Pees we pin pM as | Senator Huddleste. (rks come to order. Mr. Aaron. The agenda tdday is to nroceed with the DCI A BG Oe . ; oe ; section and in addition we wank, like to cet the Subcommittee's if you will substantive: arrreval of the raper on the nroduction | af intclligence so that i+ micthe qo to. the Agency and we could a9 throudh the process of atearina ‘its details. T don’t know which oo those you wish to teke un first 4 hub = in 1 . Me. Kirhow. We shoud really take up the paper first oF hecause it already went cub this morning. - z Me, Maron. Well. thee are re: sling ik But we bave rot ; oo, i Senator Ifnddlestan.  Anvocomment on. that paner? Mr. Miller. Which parar? | . . } Senator Huddleston. the Inroduction of intelliaence. Mr. Aaron, It is in the ‘larder. book, ! Mr. Kixhow. Ganater, T have some comments but T | ‘Aefer to the Senators if they have sone comments first iir. Aaron. Ttie ak Tats TEL. Ce, t Senator Huddleston. harley, ere head, Mr. Kirhow. Thank vor. The eancern thak hon t.cen aupreased by the senise a, witmeavece st firm PR Neenes mrt oobicr mache @f Ble contiuind ty noe, ene bafiare thie cou. ne a POSE aR a wyoeeery al \ ls | \ cor Wut a matter af record for 2 meen pent meee ee eee © amet ane ate er Neer ee Ae RR IRENE ER enya NENG + REAR: EIR * 13 ARAN eee cE .
; " po | f BS os os ; 7 i | ae "ou the Senators. T'm sure beesoinest that the bid Piaht in | | ES } . ; . = 7 : a © \ the Mouse last vear was to avoid) the excruciating details on | buddet fiqures and I thin': sc had kind of discussed perhaps | i co , - ; i L ee eg i frublishing 3 or 4 major Pentboren) Tid Like to moint out that ir i 7 i. a . | : a ; | . 4 eo, ; i this particular document, sucy oreat detail as that portion of the - | ; S$ jLcrs, the nnr which produce? Intelligence, we speak of an " ‘authorized nroject to $79.9 million with 2.269 employees, exact | & fT rmercantade of the Acendv's (udaek and the ex-ct rercentage of th a personnel, That ene nade of this document is rrohablv the most | ‘ 1 t ' 10 | classified single comnilaticn. ¢ a a od Tt Senator Huddleston. “hak;npade is that? _ ale Mr: Kirbow. Pace 4. fo . a ee , 1S] Senator HrddjJeston. Of cavnrse ik'e out of the Agency. | oy ; ; TL would assume thev would hava some comment on Lt. a . . : HS || Mr. Aaron. The watink-vasinot, the view was not to _ i t . { : . 1 : oreduce these precise numbers but A, to have them for the j : iow Ly |. Subcommittee se that thev could understand them and much as . ra | 7 io WY things will be modified and to lay the hasis for an svoropriate | . discussion with them ac to finw one miqht modify it and yet ! | eanture the essence of tre eraurignt, and vellL dusk sea how me far that aces in trvind te reach in- arnt | 4 ’ | | | t ! Certainty we bacs vs detention of oA Monger My Dba kes copa casy hhia Nerarkrenk 4 i 4 oe, renbesanka a subebanti tooo cendtkure with a larde number of | | { ! | in the case of. the MCL's oriqinal paner to exnect that these | i | t i 1 HW 50955 —Docld: 32423509 Page 6
ti ro My % 4 ' h i 1 ampoloyvees? | Mr, Kirbow. Wel! {f ' sould tell vou what my position | Co lon it is, in speaking. to Beth nihom£iela las it night I specifical} ‘asked her -- wall, she save thaki's to dive ‘then something out © i there to take out so that we'lt have enough left in here that 6 j-wontd. be a worthwhile docrmnent ait the end. i " | | and I think that if we are kidding ourselves ‘that we , ; | oo, &. ! hate either the time or -- and ue should not have the Inclinati a bey mv.opinton to vaste tha +ime of the people at the Avency . | , ve thor anything hy. "putting in things which will aive Mr. Boldin | | _! | Hien bo qnaw. on so he "ran ‘t bother the rest of the “tiping, | 12 | I inst didn! t think thak we. vere qoind ko cet into that k.gnd O in| aft dealing with the Ramen ‘peanie. T thougbt. we vere doing to vl he forthriant in what we Hhonaht! we should nut in and what we | az : . ic | eoute pvt in a document Likes this because the whole production ! 16 | of intelligence thing or bhe whole theme of the paper ig ee | H ' ; >| this inadequate attention qiven to the analytical portion of ! val production. . . | 7 | VO | And if we area doinad thie ind sending it out there in | nf 8 aD» | thle classified form favs. wold knowing at the outset -- ghe | ay Sava. well, that's not oven matertal. Tf they want to take it: : eo lout, just take it ont. Weld, £6 dts nek matesdall, 7 would hope that we're not onrats aad chot 29 G09 yicovide in the. | | | | | i o4 Fcgetdies fh ne tne ooo oe | ance month, | | bo pape | SRERE 7 | HW 40955 Docid: 32423509 Page 7 |
t 4 aeowe RAPA GR aR rm i f | pon Senator Huddleste:. (' think it's nrobahly material to -a lialso to have a firmer orstr vhenlwe start discussing and defendince ho ; o, . if - |) the report maybe, even to the extent of having specific figures. i ' . : 1! oo. Tae i I-think it's highlv unlikely that they will let that stay| , { in there and we'll orohahjv brave; to modify 1t.. I see your point ~ iin a way that we might save curselves time by scaling it down | ~ ke, heqin with to what we think vill be acceptable, but on the .. | ms | other hand. we may not quas rine. | oan | i Mr. Kirbow. Well. for the record then, Senator. I do | nd 7 1a] have excention to this tyne vriting where we deliberately beef - | at up with known classified jnfernation full well knowing hat 1 _ Po ; an Ce i : ogee ‘itis going to be taken out and not get to the point that we . | oan a “ | are tryind to make, Bit Yovwen'ti dwell on it’anv further. Ay : . a | Sanater Huddleston. ota von have any commernk cn: that an | | | | | | asnect,.. fenntor Hart?- . | i Senator Hart. Mey, , | yey : , : : | Senator Huddleston. All right, that one's readv to go. | i Mr, Aaron. Thank you, | : i I Now we left off vesterdavion page 25. We had discussed | mabe oy co. | tue oral pronasals by way of recommendations. The first was | 20 | , re a || to set a tone fer the MCT which vas rejected and the second | an | . . po, | “i was to confirm the new communitviwide deputy for the Mer to | j have him subtect to Sansta cenfizmation te establish him as, fj in atfeet. the first depnhe Sf the DOT. the man who vould succea yo . . | ; | HOP SECRET | I . o . ; . vw Lopes ig, rea - . ; : . i: HW.50955 Docld:32423509 Page 8
WW 50955 PR Docld:32473509 Page 9 “NSC Committees. gives the Comalktoa the vesnonsibllity of We also discussed) borinfiv the recommendation nunber 16 ‘and we aqreed that we would make some change in the language i | relating ‘to what in effect is the re-establishment of the board | of. national estimates to mars claar that they weren't there just for the purnose of endorsing estimates but “£rom the ¢s standpoint thnt they are there for the nurnose of reviewing them. So the next recommendation is recommendation 17, and it is long and complicated, Wacentlally what the recommendation g : Anes ig swell out more orecisely what the DCI's responsibilities will be for the overall atlocation of resources and coordinatio oF the community! § aetiv lee anart fram the production of cer Finished ttlewnes’ which La the purpose of recommendation ©. Now what it does, the first paragraph summarizes the essential resnonsibilities along the lines of the President's Executive Order. Now it is slightiv different from the Executive Order. in the following sense. The Rvacitive Order establishes an preparing a national intellidence budqet, makes the PCT the Chairnian of that Committees. and vives the CT in hin nerson, if vow will, the rasponai hd Eity For nrasenting that budaee to tHe oresident | Megs ven mY oF mutt Hore h that ceneuhat’ rom teated and not antirely clear allacekion of author itv to the mei by simply 1G ° eC REY ITT eM ALUL:
responsibility squarelv on him to do that. et oe caving he is responsibles “or mrenaring tha community's buddet, and he has this Committer for this purpose in trying to place Now this would not mean, however, that the Secratary of Defense he senior to hin in the cabinet. T mean the National Security Council could not make a,reclama and could not go over his head, That situation will <bill‘exist and this Committee is) tn fact a committee of the ‘ational Security Council. so there ie another layer at whieh inter-Agdeney disnutes, if they ee bevond the level of the Comatttes on Foreian Intelligence * where they cauld be resolved, Now the finst -- Lt also desianates ‘him as resronsible for praparina the budget ‘and rrovidina auidancs for operations prcarams in aeneral tarns amd outs him in-as chairman. of the anpropriate NSC committee. and then we reference the CFI and then authorize the following snecific responsibilities. Birst of aL, the establishment of national intelligence recuirements.for the entire community and-it emnpovers him to. draw unon representatives of the members of the intelligence e Nov this is an inercase in his anthoritv from his. Currant mostore. He has eaw the authoritv koa tissue aiidance tn kha onrenavabie: af veesiremavhe buk he cantkh replie sav do i Se this ar de thet. Pheer ave tha. things we wank. TOP SECRET ser Oe Pay” community to help him in tha tack of establishing these requirem | |
to - Now as a practic?! mabher. J think it's fair ter sav that. * |/he aoes pretty far in aettind his way at the present time, but on some of these requirements on a national basis, this would 1) aive him the clear authority to osk them to do things. | i 7 : i on Now his requirements. the level of detail and so, forth, fe vould obviously be something that would have to be neqotiated — out in tRe course of his work. Now that is the receerendation of the first parcgqraph 2° lb and naradqgach A. requirements vnroceass. il refers here to the fact that ye i | | T might dust sav it also aives the PCT in connection “ ! ses t =a 3 mav determine the succass cf various agencies in Fulfilling and- re tact what the caradrach saka un is a ss stem whereby the net can establish requirements | and then Hh roudh the budget vent ed Lud ws i some estimate of how well the cowmunity is doing and either add | ye [tees hudsets or take away in cartain areas and so forth. 1a fi This orovides sone of kha real svstem as apposed to a on ya | paner svsten which he ns het in the mark. oo | | . | 2) Laracdraph B dencrihes the preparation cf the national | ay [ treeiscenes maton ane madnke oat that be should prepare this = | oo | huamet, -Abegent it ta thes Nresidant and to the Conqress who { | | oe - as | would make soma raferaues bors ta the Jlancuadge in the President's coat Mymempbten Medor te thts eres, op |i Thomeler the te thors eohit that the definition of the. | ate RORET wey OR a secernmempeesttterantnat Se HW 450955 Docld: 32423509 Page 11
"Y Li 12 As | vetements to he included within » national intelligence budcet -- in other words, what parks of the community. would fit into that, where you draw the line hetwean technical and national intelli- This definition world he established bv the Conuress in i. . i cence, between departmental and national intelligence. ; | a, | |i censultation with the Fxecntive Branch, Tt further points. ouk that he should be involved early in t the process of vrenaring briceks in’ the budatt evele, and then |i tt makes come hortatory kind of statements about how ha should Ere to consider. trade-offe hekveen prearans and hetween collectilo: | | ib and nroduction and so forth. . , ; | oe i | Senator Huddleston. towonld ewaqgest there that we tise | another word hesides trade-off. while it is common fer us to yee it un here in committees work. don't think Lb conveys the hest connotation to the nublic. | : | What we're saving is that he balances cut or anportions | resources, whatever’. | | Mr Aaron. Now t think the final cantence is this | important one. and the Crnatore should note this. The proposal and nerhans this ought bs he made somewhat more. clear than it. is now as te who will do this. but the authority -- L'm sorry, it is clear. But the sutherity of the DCT to renrodram funds ce etsy qiees ka the Cunmntthea on be thy arent The Pyradidené& bh - i i within the telligence badect should be limited by shacute. mehin ¢ nte ci . , , b Pareto Tetallinence asks ty bkhe authority ko mresves the | sees a PU TOP SECRET ; |
HY 50955 3 y+ a are) Be "| | | national intelligence brdech. bak to renreeram menevs sfithin from some,other part of the lurdaat. NSA, MRO, some other major a sort of (‘broad eutheritv to reproqram money. | i ll Docld:32423509 Page 13 that budaet. Now our estimate fe kag that hudaet would be on the order of $3, 4, perhaps nn te #5 billion, depending on what is included in it, and 1 anhed the Shite House, the NSC member of: that Committee what the nernane of that articular provision WAS; and I asked him snenitically did this mean that vou would he able to, as in the case of Anaola, renproav-am money away proaram, and put it inte the sqwart military, raraqmilitary. action program? | nr 7 And ha said ves, hak is the beacon that be is qiven Senator Huddleston. “velL, they were doing some of that. yeran't they? Mr. Aaron. To some oxtent 1 believe that's true, but t personally don't know what that extent was New to the extent ve will see jater that we place some or make some recommendations consearnina Limitations on the authority to draw upon ‘treo fants a to replenish certain Funds for the nurcosas of cowart actin . this saurres. with that gear ot TE RA ER ER EE eRe | = RR A tetera PAE " mroposal hv saving that there ainaid he hy statute certain Timttations foal ‘the perro am agar of fiinds, Wate mak csydnd chau these meahbk to be there really — thinkine tlert tha mucysdaht ocean [ches wanld ha ave to werk aut. Te URS
i ' oa HS. ~ i t Now .fFhe next narucreanh. += 2 Mr. Kirbow.: Coul’ -‘a taka these one at a time because these are rather critical? 1 | Mr, Chairman, one of the things that came before this & | Committee when I quess tt was Mr. Colhv testifying and at each Aeterna ener pt ©: yh nee tetertmneronmonmachienmmepociE cert ;meeting that Mr. Miller ard the staff had with the people from v ithe White House and the CIA when we were nrenaring the oversight ® |p bill. we heard many qood reasons ‘why ve shou'd net. denrive the Oo | MCT of this ability to stan. certifying out of certain Funds machine to hinder that tyne of oneration. : ? If, as Navid. savs, his recomme dation here is. to prevent 4 | J and being able to exoand them without a dreat hig red tape : limits. is a first step toward restricting that further | i | . a8 renrogramming. lexcant within very. narrowly defined statutory ee T would Like to axcent on this and have it “ascussed | hefore the Full Committee, or in the absence of that, or i \ \ i | connected with it, have the record that-we have that: shows us 13 | that we should restrict hy levyielation Rera -~_ | ya! Senator Huddleston. what is the major thrust there? of an le it to in fact limit or restrict or is it to actually have | ey i se and snecified- in the statute as to what. circumstance: oo } micht pre rail? | | oe | | | 27 | My. RNaron. The thrust here is as fallows. The CI es h’can now srerodram mwanay fathin bis oun agency to some extent. Of, [That iderat., denandins en thao narts le can reproqran, ¢ don't i id ek | TOP Bee CRET I aes il roe PUR HW 50955 Doocld:32423509 Page 14
lhalieve heican reprogram t+ within aheut $750 millicn of his | | j | - jown appropriation. : Senator Huddleston. Na ocan't take something out of the NSA now. and put it over? A Mr. Aaron. No, we can't do that. But in his new Fo enti meme ree meen? re ARAN nee eicetereernduteaye  snyauenmuuagereenaneeys “ || responsibilities as DCI fer prenaring the budget of the entire " | national intelligence program. he will now be in a position to i ranrooram the entire hudaekt and therefore-it‘'s a much targer hind of Flexibility. ne Now the thrust of this perticvlar rronosal is not really | aimed, this particular one -- Jaker one we do have. one which | i does place some constraints and the murnose is te make it clear: there the monev comes frem and where it's going to ao to make it clear to the Congress at least. But this particular | } i a | one simply says that hecause@ this is aq much wider renregramming | | flexibility, that it ouaht to be subject to certain kinds of | i | | oO . . oo i: || definitions and consider the limitations so that the Congress | knows what is’ hannenina to the moneve that it appropriates for y | particular nurpes es. | | Senator Huddleston. Well, for this particular paragraph, se | then, . world define or srectfy. suffice | the werd Limited, | cy | or not? 7 Mr Raron, Th showtd he dafined, That's correct. : | oo ae | ee thet jeocs dararture from the stantacd reprogramming miacess tha ui} a oe a | (OP SECRET 1. , see eres RPV CEE, . HW 50955 Docla: 32423509 Page if
i a ; has heen adopted in the ct taeake ovar the last 10 cr 15 vears, for instance, with the Crp ii ten on Armed Services. | Senator Huddleston. for other departments? Mr. Kirnow. | Where: there +8 an authorizing and an anoropriations type action in the Conaress, as Senator Hart A wild know from his éxnericnce on that committee, if they wish | to revroqram missile mone nvar to aircraft, for instence, it © has to be anvroved by al}i fone of those comm: thes s, both I Arms Services and hoth anpronriations committees with the Od. enact transfer of the amnhints of money and the justifications : . * “oO | | Li aiven therefore - \ an | | | x} : : 4 ee ; 7 — | oe i My concern is nok that the Coniress should not have a . . . . | . | ia} aentrol of. this er that you could make it so riaid by making A ; oe recemmendations that leave the oversiahkt committer and the 1s | annropriations committes no’ flexibility to do this. ing fwouts think that unless we have! a very qood record on this, we should | | t ony i . 17 || recommend that this should be a matter that the oversight 14 committee in its new rele aives 00d consideration to, Mr. Miller. The npersiqaht comnittees and the appropriats i h t committees would have fleanibility. Every appropriations act is | a statute. afar all, | i} t | “Mr. Kirhow. mhay nar baindy: would: unless you restrict - : ; | Pa | Sometey Ter’) Phe os uery) Mark ye are enagasting So ogbdtutke rep whieh the new oyergiat cceolrkea that has. pwacced, — ; if etre a SECRET [fr & WL pa eects HR oF HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 16
ia on Q . v4 i UF ‘to have that kind of vrotecttoan. | POOP we Lb mak have res: Ste eee My ded Be Ss — 14 f ‘ so far would have legisla lum .authority over. Se we'ra really dust recommending here that in this statute they provide the Framework under which there kinds of. reproqi.amming can be done in view of the fact that we are extending the pet from his own little bailiwick to the entire intelligence community, ‘Mr. Kirbow. If hatte the intent of the committee, I have no reservations about ik. Senator Huddleston | 4oden't think th: military people. would obivet to that lna jas lanqduage, Thav'd like to have soma definite framework for a man to reach into his budget. “Mr. Kirbow. ‘I think all the varinus agencies would like , Senator Haidleston, Meay . Mr. Davis. Number (C. the MCI should. have responsibility , _ , to review all intelligence activities and intelligence resource ‘allocations, including tactical military inteLliqence in order to carry out his more qenars| roanonsibilities. Watyve used the word "eavten" vary aarefully here. This is not a responsibility to dirack those onerations but simply to be able to Look at the whole in order to sort of b=iance it We're not saving that he's taking over resnonsibility. from the military commanders. TE vou read the Bracutive Order ' 5 tha lanavaca $a At ffarsnk anc th save hak the Get poet the TOP SECRET. | TTT ie PR -_rarmwevamerre ener. HASSE apt ethene eR NEESER + snes afta. ot nen
HY S0955 Bocld: “4 | | | f i. two and that is ambiguous to us and so we wanted to make sure For directina tactical military onerations. the DCI shall have intelligence, But then it uses the word smwwidance.. That is that the DCI will provide guidance on the relationship between the that the DCI would. be akla ta losk at the whole but not have © responsibility for directing the tactical militarv intelligence em mer weet tte na Een pennatenenennnnngs nrograns. Mr. diGenova. The crisinal drafting of that Section Cc, jt think it's actually clearer than the way it''s drafted now. the oriqival draft save, rhile the DCT shall. not have responsibil responsibility to review all intelligence activities, at : ptera. ‘T think the oriaina) ane is better because it makesg it clearer what vou are trving to gay. Mr. Kirbow. LE vautre eoing to nse that for Senate. vet have to sav tactical military intellicence operations. ‘Mr. diGenova. Yes. .Thare's a word missing from the an mene gennanetantttnn tee + emcee eriadinal formulation. Mr. Davia. The reason it was taken ouk is because it ¥ yas a necative and there «ag the. thought that thi is is saying what he does do and leaving what be doesn't do nok to be said. It's un to the Committees how veu mank to == Mr. didenova. Part oon don lt want ta do the same thing i: the Preeifent dia and lear tha thing Ammons . Me, Desde l T have penvoh Tem molocing that first statement. Ganakor Madd dae ten: ng son want bo be nositive “you can | TOP SECRET won A Be 32423509 Page 18
A La is 20 | yes hecause’ he's aqoing. to try to. look at the whole. - th -asgtabligh? say while the resnonsihilits for directine tactical military’ onerations resides with wihoavecr it is. the DCI still shall have the review. Mr. Davis. Well, veview is, I think, the right word Senator Huddleston. I think Joe makes a point there hacause that could lead to some wisinternretation. Me, Mavis. Gection aces on to ask che-iirector of Cantral Tetellicence to astehtish a staff to surrort him in these resnonsibilities and to draw a staff as widely and from ana yetnarsayesantating entre err EEA te Aa heya vo: nnd-anganepaewesamegugnpnaanrney 9 Q hest talent that he can. . oo os a - | , a : Senator Hart. Is this another staff or is this the staff that ie in beind? ¢ Mr. Davis. This is the skaff in being. ie has always. had neonle to help him in; this role. Senator Hart. Why do ve have to authorize him to do scemethina he's already doing? 4 e Mr. Mavis. “We don! vant him net to do that. & mean wa want him to havea snecial eratf to cacry out: theses” responsibilities. | Senator Nuddlesten, This. is ahout the second or third | time uetua referted to him haying the staff. . Senator Mathine. Why donth vou sav maintain inetead of ~ Gannker Hart. cho L& be doesn'h wank the estate? FOP SRORET wo PAWL cee nee SR ere nAnnnne th ARIELLE a RY SRE GAGRA TE NORE RNa: AARNE “HE! ENERO Ete ertemtecenyepanensnenenssenettinetnpetieneerentt Aah mtr eNO cee Sette mitten: nol ER =
Mr. Davis. Hela oaukhordaad, fe doagn't have te, | Mr. Kirbow. Wat's oithoriszead to have a staff under the | "resident's executive order er in any other normal course of { | j husiness. (BF ‘ji . mn! This appears to be dirring down balow the kind of: q || statutory authority position that. you have and telling them how. ry structure all of the ordanizations. underneath. i ee os Lo 7 : 2 That's mv omjection “so thak narticular asrect of the _ , ; - 4 q |} recemmendation., I kind of side with Senator Hart. He has the | | authority to do his business and.T don't think anyone in their tt | witdest imaqination would think that the Congressional reqord. " i Lox history in this would‘eetablish that he's: surresed to do it I iy time dF 174 self. a Senator Hart. You took the words viqht owl ol my mouth. - | Mr, Kirhow. And I-ence more say this is cne of the 16 | Fecommendat ions: that we reeommend be taken out. | a Senator Hart. Whats wat | _ : oS . ap | Mr. Kirhow. Thea staff had had discussions at the staff 19 | tevel where several reconmmen?’ations that thinas like this be he 20 taken ovt For that verv reason ke considered. and I.think it | .~, | is inadvertent that they are hack in the redraft. | an Senator IInddleston. You have no stronq feeling about that: a Let's omit that naracrerh. I a 0 Seoarnher Marth. fe that correction. and T hate te do this. | hob Tid Like te bagkog beesera Dev ie sadasd riehk be this SECRET oe Ue . HW 50955 Docld:324233509 Page 20
speedy e “HW 50955, yo ~. By ey ea mS Li ase oR Doctd: 324273509 Page ?1 a oS et a ‘to establish a hoard of sontor advisors. sade (24, reeammendation $8. The Nirector also) would he <4 Now who is that? who Le that. board? Mr. Davis. hie worded pa something similar to the board of national estimates. Senator Hart. 8 ha ennnwered to do that now? Mr. Naron, He is not ommowered to ao that now hecause it Was abolished on him. Mr. Davis. Rut he eorld do it. | oO - os SO | Mr. Aaron. T donth think that's cetrect. “Mr. Maxwell. Ha abolished it. Tk was not abolishd on. tage we him. Senator Hart. Coutd "rs. Bush reconstitute it if he wants? | | Mr. Rader, Senator, this is ina way a call to the ner. It is based, I think. on veally extensive testimony we have taken here about the ntility of the board of nat tonal esti imates. Senator Huddleston. Th’ may he more 3 recommendation that ati authorization, | Meo nawia. At the ena time ue didn't want to tell him he had to hecanse ita wera or lass un ko him hecanse if he Anagy'e wenk to run hic chen: that way - - Genater Hack Cle see thagea neonte? Me. Pavia, tn ose rhey have heen Former senior ee a ON “Oo ny . + . . . : vs - ' wee
Rd UN HW 50955. oO _ Ky Docld: 32423509 Page 22 efFicials and academics who went serve to re 2yiew the astimates and comment on them for the director. Senator Hart. no they perform any function? Have they in the past? | : Mr. Miller. Oh, VRS. Llewelyn Thompsen, for example. there are senior diplomate. cantor military men from the outside people of distinction, peonla who have seen a lot and have something Lo contribute. | ‘Seyator Hart. “neve they had something to contribute? Mr. Miller. - Yes. | Mr. Aaron. There ara tye functions they can perform. More or less. they can bring their wisdom to hear on the. producti. Senator Hart. y wank to know what they have dona in the nast. Mr. Miller. Soviet make: rs. Llewelyn Thompson's roles, for example. | . . ; | ; Mr. Aaron. nna the second thing they have done was to orevide.some senior sucport for the ACT and the judqerents he ie makina. Now the extent Aan) Nich that supper has been -ranglated inte horsenewer is unclear. emcemk ib was sufficiently strong that ih was of concern to the posedous adm'inicktration anc cas one’ of the reagons that Hhe bested feond others was die -etbali ished. ~ Senn kor tps: te tia re fe Pyeage me prank car] oy ante pyoh mee ‘ Nn the mask that we bnerst ut hes le BRS RET . om PAGEL eee nn eR
a: i "Soh Ox oc 4 . ; a \ ae Mr. Inderfurth. ' think that's in relation to helping - © ito insulate the DCI from vressures to modify him, Inthe . po ; a i ; . ° | past, . the board of. national estimates insvlated the DCI from pressures. ~Senator llart. Chile, Ancola, all these cases where the & | ncT comes in and says we don't really: want to do that but the QO President and say, Llevelv.:. Thompson doesn'* wart us to, eithe 9 Mr, Lombard. i think park of the problem here. Senator, 4 President made us, ‘loes. he bring in. the senior advisor to the | 5 Administration and fitted vary wall.into the formalistic wy | ap that the office of estimates was created under the Eisenhowe | in which foreian voliev was evolved Turina that administwation. | Parpars ag #& matter of Fach it's been criticized as being overly 44 || formalistic and the board of ostimates was viewed as being somewhat too long-range and somewhat other world ard rot - | | ia] aeared to what the President perceived as.heing his dav to po dav needs on estimates. ie d-but it seems as though those insitutions bave changed according. 19 | Now 2 don't know where thea equities lie in this thing, | | en to individual Presidents. | Gq really. beginning with the Kennedv administration, | von. had the decline of the of fice of national estimates because i ~My. Rerep rim pek sere thatie renlly a fair rieture | My Aarnn . ve @ af tha higkarew of be Senedd. Perhaps you could tell us since | | it no loncer seamed to Fit theo Fabric. a $ i TOP SECRET H Wor PAU HW 50955 Docld:32423509- Page 23 -
Jerry were associated with th bell. Mr. Kirhow. Iowant to talk about the testimony that i | a os given before the committae on this from two of the former i mo : : i ae oo HNCis. Mr. Colby, at both the breakfast briefings he gave and in testimonv, favored the use of individval intelligence offices around in these various acanctes, originating estimates and evervthing else: whereas ‘Nr. 'elms,. when he testified here, & llsavs I really don't know ho: that system is -rorking ritht now. : mn | I didn't favor it when Mr. Calhy astablished it, and 1 had the other svstem and it worked well. for ma. the individual as to how he wants to run the intelligence community and what apparentiv suited Mr. Helms fine didn't a { { | { | | | : So T think here again you are talking about a man 'g | suit Mr. Colhy and he used a different svstem which he says | works great. And I say that that is. again, a step down thing. Unless vou want to encourage him to do it ina recommendation | ana not mandate that he do it, it kind of makes him run his business the wav you want it run and to neo apnmarent abuse Senator Hart. Well, iy aniv thought here is that some a | staffing recnirements as the: suit the narticuler times and 7 | | | future oversicht committees or select committee is going ‘to be ma ae) | 20 an anything like that. — to oinnoink resoonsibilieyv, and thare are so many beards | a | cand committers anc racks te bide behim! thak a bCt has or a President or anybody has olhak TOP SECRET Your &© PU HW 50955 Docld:32423509. Page 24
“pore HW 50955 " 1 | Socadain, my intent here _ i a | 3 | responstbinity. that's 911 all. And 4 let's do-it. & . Mr. Bader. The recerd, Ay from personal: experience with “3 ia onart of which the board's 9. i) both the oC and indead the 1 | cases of the military who felt 11 || continuation of our bases in | in || than sav some hard political 12 | Portucese Africa. 1d And.T could cite ceher fey insulating funetion was PHaXLTIOUS deal to. do with the exnarience. They also plav a role as sessions of these national advisory board that sits outta national intellidence becomes the chairman. Sa they de nlav nm very By. Arar. tr nha’ conesen abrark foe neces al, ke cc 2 just to keep the structur: oc clean as possible to identify Senator, the board of national estinates -—| rola mnaivs the Azores enseg where this nekinates, far From ea bincdbe . | | | | | . | nresence of some of these board members . | | | | | | bide La tt a a ee know-nothina. if this is imnortant to do, and I can only speak ms certainly know of at Teast four estimates with which L had Was very t from the ravages: in two, very strenaly that the imnorte nt in, ve | | WAR much more “Ampietant | realities ahout the future of kind of ly y Amportant. it had a great the background | and the very’ there's not Just an the process. fach ‘the chairman, of the a one of these. board members . | active role in the nprenaration. Sention that in this connection vour sceblem. whieh to okhink is a | po FP SECRET Docld:324273509° Page 25. ety & my sue
mm LO te i ' 4 fair one. ve have tesh iret that Halms! dieanosttian on this | was very clear. When he cianed the estimate it was his estimate and it really wasn't the board's estimate. it is clear that he is amrowered to do it. Two, if the a me committee desires to make cleor that as a recommendation, on the basis of the committes's examination of their record that i | \ 4 i Mr. Maxwell. Perhans it might be nseful because I think | | | this is a desirable thing) vither than saving that it wquld be oO «2 a | emniuered, hy statute, because he fines have that nower. Mr. Kirhow. Ts ik the a@-stre of the Committee. though, “1 if te chance the current = shen which the nresent director hae mnt seen fit to change vet. which he Sas Full authority to | . in} change if he wighas to do en and which the nrevicus OCI I sO ia established and develonred into a vorking mechanism? | oe _ _— Le. fi Mr. Miller. The records show that the furcticn of LA | the board had heen. official resu} ‘ts. Then it seems ‘to me we — | 4 . : . 1 yo | should oso state that it is a desirable skructure, 19 Mr. FKirbow. T bed one difference with Bill. Tr don't 19 | knew that it is dasirablo te insulate the ner from the opinions | * 120 . | . | on || of the resvective military rlapartments iF they have a vested / m1 a7 ao the militerry. tp Wr beons Thess 8 tory raw Time bh ogan be roed to Ag SECRET woe RAUL. t ] i | interest in the outceme of the decision heing rendered. | { | { Mr. Miller. The beard hae distinanished memhers from -| i “| HW 50955 ‘Docld: 32423509 Page 26,
| yoH Mr, Miller. Insilsate tha noli itical pressure. That's 2 {the point. Not the point af view of ovinion. 4 Senator Hart. Mr. Chairman, I move that this paragraph | stay in. that ve move on. Senator Huddlesten. vos. £ think ve discussed that. ®& i thorouchly yesterday, as a mathker of fact. nr Mr. Aaron. On E, this is the clause which, in effect, a |makes clear that there is a ‘tefinite Jimit to the ncr'e authority ‘ Qo fand.the limit heinag ‘the conduct of warfare, at which time’ there j Theuld he a clear svstem and voroceses wherehy these activities ; oF the intelliqence community over which he has responsib#lity | in some qeneral sense here frr ladqdet and so forth, that these | waste activities come under the facreta ary.of Defense. It's ; , ; | , ia | simolv recoonizing the facet that ve really have tuo problems. on the ona hand. the conduok of intelligence in what is essential: ' 4A peacetime and the conduct of intelligence in wartime, chat hich ‘tension meaans i Me Innere Dawid. could we dgek some exam les of | ‘Mr. Kirbow. We recommended that that come out. Everyone} - had | agreed on that and t think it was put back in. It's vce . t . that vou can't define. tha Sacretary of Pafense mav ‘ral never his control at that time and eaaowind un with a wreasttiag pmaten . (Seneber fark. .Uuh toeareca a phrase [ak ars her national! ~ | Tap ts FCRET wert PAWL © i} is | be high tension but the net may not he willinad to diva vp | i | HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 27
petty HW 50955 al Docld:32423509 Page 28 eamerdency mavbe?. Mr. Aaron. Well. ' think. the way we came on it was ‘to simply sav if vou have tha nrocess for a time of war, the Prasident may exercise ik. and ho may exercise it if he feels what happens. ‘ ! t'S a crisis. a _ The point was just! to have a process and have it “understopé Mr. diGenova. Ts it saed to have a svsten that is oneratina,all right tn penectime and then when you come to the time you really need, vou qivea it to someone alse to run? -- Mr, Aaron, Well, the reauirements change in time ae * B: war, Me. Onanheck. The collection would become almost emapletelv onerational. The sites would be dedicated to nnaational rurvoses and thera’d be no purvose to have direction , from the DCI. ; : , Oo | In that case it vould be a supporting military operation. | | . -_ Similarly. the naw satellite systems would he used to support oncoing oparations. | Mr. diGenova. In other words, you're saving: there vena be varv manv national intelliqence needs. ‘|. Mr. Ouanheck. Well. ocenomic intelligence would he | reiatively unimportant. vert fisation of arms contre aureements ould pak be’ a matter of eens, My. ditenpova., vole: talking about the’ use of hardwar2. For SECRET Me aan ™, Pou
7 Mr. Ouanbeck. Yer ‘Mr. Kirbow. There's no difference of opinion between. former Secreta: ‘ies of Defense. Everyone concedes that the R | control of intelligence should a0 for Defense's purposes in | | S | the former DCI's -- I don't knew Mr. Bush's position -- or the : | . ee . [eine 0° war,, the princinal control. i Mr. Davis. The noint is. too. the argument in the past has been the Secretary of Th Sansa needs the sontrol he has. ot ¢ oa Q had in order to prenare for war and now vou're saving the military commanders. And this is a way of saying that we a ak, s ae oo understand that in wartime jt is uoins te mo back, It is More symbolic. . . { Net's. aoing to do more bit vou don't want to upset the | Mr. .Kirbow. One of the recommendations in the military area we'll come to later is on this) same enbjec tt with the bulk of the work I guess on ‘the subject being done by that group. _ Mr, Davis. This also harnrens with the clandestine service todav. .In war the chandestine service comes under the. tre teen ener me ET military commander in the field, hecause of the exnanded authority of the DCT that is yranted an heth in the order and our ~-rovosed statute. particularly in the 4 { On " .. Mie, Aaron. There -rea sone arrangements ef this character larea-of revulrements. | Tt's dmpextoank te Rava hig aaveak, if vou eid). Now reconmmendati an Jooveally suagesks that the oversight TOP. SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 29
a) as 2 te) TA oye} . f committee Look at carrvine the budget nrdcess a eaten further and instead of appropria ti or authorizing the appropriation funds to the . different departments ‘for inte? ligence purposes, +2 eee ete eR ERE atari ntem 2 eneonnreng 4 that in fact they are authorized to the NCL who would then ~ varcel them out, and it doesn't come down hard to say that this. auTht to be done but that, this is the next togical step in this | nrocess and it is “something For the oversight committea' “| agenda. | Noy number 19 -~ Mr. Kirhow. I would like to excent on, that until such time as the whole subject, of the budast and release of thg fiacures and evervthins else is ‘considered. the whole sone | Asnect ak the same time. ! . Senator Tlart. TI don't understand this exe eDtLan 4 How does that. work? an Mr. Kirbow. Senator Tower has asked the Chairman that | if there was anvthina that had not been - in agreement among the staff, that. it could ha provaht before. that’ it would certainly come -to the subcommittee. Senator Hart. Mell, the Subcommittee can 90, ahead and vote an something. rant they? “Senator Hart. 3 why avery member of the Full! Committe resarves hie riahts ohen onyrts nether comas hefore the Full Cemniktees.  F denth think: there road ro he excertions: Filed. Sor oR PAUL | a ne HY 50955 Docld:32473509, Page “30°
a. : errr. Sa 28 tts all de novo whan if aster un to the Ful] Committen anyway. 2 Mr. Kirbow, I sian dy indicated to the Chairman earlier that I didn’t want to have a reservation like that and not a noint it out to him heaause T dfan't want the absent member to appear to be sandbarcdins the subcommittee, “ i Senator Huddleston. Ha's putting us on notice. 7 4 . Mr, Aaron. Ontton 13, -this option stens up ta the a |] question of whether the [Cr in his new canacity aa the overall ’ et oe eee: 0 | manager of the community. snd hy manader 1 don't mean down in | ene nuts and bolts but havin the ‘aeneral management rooms oe interpreting the ndcar in harms of. roqirements, in ‘tame ae | of qjeneral aquidance for the wanadement of some of thesa- | | Loge oe an j activities. whethar that Funektion should be serarated from that oF runnina the CIA as an adenev, between those two responsibilit es. I think the arguments, if 4 t | t | | | | i | Now we have heard some testimony ahonut the inconsistensy” || t can set them on the tvo cides; would be as follows. An || oy the wav, there's a difffor anee OF eninien in the staff as tales which of these is the riqht ene to Fellow. . The arcument in favor of going ahaad ven to sanarate thom is that these | a) | ( are inconsietant. that ona contd have, vow remove the nel | 7 cone of the nrineinal sseacton regnonsihle for nok only = activities bak fra a ee alt coumank af ctemals intallicenag, WD soo a conflict of interes  «Ltunation in-which he is both runnin | devalorimant of merkatin vececrsh and Mavelooment, nreursna that ars i 7 a FAP 4 SECRET Om PAU , . | HW 50955 Docld:32423509° Page 31.
Era) f eriey . H Sr Re Pt tp = rae & i ot mf creat interest. to tho cammom tbe, and veu take him out of the nosition-of having to judin other people's research and development programs and other people's SIGIN’' programs, and ea ARR ee pneane ree RARUE ether activities when he is the overall director of Central & | Intellicence. and that therefore this sanaration, his removal «| from that, would be a qood idea, 7 | The second arqument is that you really want to nlace the authority squarely an the wow director of this acency wha's apina to a responsible for clandestine activities. Tf he | } a still has. a boss above him who is kind of responsible hut whe | in fact hecause of his increased responsibilities won't bef 1p abde to dive the day td day attention to nlandestine activities jz i) that he might, if he didn't have these renter, responsibilities. i4 |} one shold make the lines cf authority clear and lace the | in |) responsibility for the head of this agence on that agency | ia |i-and leave it there. Ly > Now the arqument against that is that -- well, there are ‘ two kinds of arquments saainst. One is that the situation now. las justified and that thie ig-a ao0d thing and we don't need to make anv chanae and there ara dood reasons to nelieve that. The sacond arcqumeank miaht follow in the middie and says, Be, he seme advantades bo cemars bing them ar wall AS tome costs, bik owe have new dosh foebibioted -rhig mea eigkeam whearech van have front, there is some incenstatency potentially. There might | | hroader. responsibilities Feo the Crh. imt's see here st works fe HOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 32 , i
HW 450955 F, : fp fave “epet gd eed | fu . ‘Awhile before stenning oe to the swestion of thethar he can | really adequately perform and waar both hats. | Those are essentially. i think, the «ronments. If there. | are-others that ought to be offered in exnlanation of the choice: Mr. Bader. Lsonld nat underline - that, ‘ic. Chairman, the second point that navit has made about recommending the cituation to stav the wav it is todav. That is, that rhe two hats would stay todethes. I think some 9 Font nena mee rete attestation ttn Fous feal that the-reriod in front of us will be a perind of axnerimentation and testing vhere there ‘are new responsibilities that will flow to the ner, We'll se@f how | - . » . x they work, we'll see where his authority takes ues, We'll bee ‘| whether he really will-in fack establish: hims elt as the resvnonsible director of s in a MCT sense, and we argued here ‘that the oversiqht committees should be attentive to this to see how it works out and that if somatime in the Future after we've had -a.chance to see how these evnoanded resnonsibilities work in practice. that will baa time to see whether the DCI and the Nirector of CIA fometion shenld he sevaratad. | [- ‘ir. Aaron, t think hoab to arqaue the first cageaia Lieerd more etronaly, if To eanla. thers are two additional. points to bey made about I - Tr oe | ae , One isa theb tn Fath hoodngq the second half. vuniing the. . . i . vad ing ageper ost tbo be dp limes dipenk ta wir oo Feebkiwebly runniow the yygera dt] coma tase 2 APE BH a (OP SECRET Docld: 324273509 Page 33°
+ So it isn't really. ivet a suestion. T would oaraue, Hi i i om where the current svstem takes us. It's a matter of | t 4 Inoking at what we have laarnad ns a result of our inauiry A and saving, in fact. this fs anina to he an impediment and it | _ es oe . - hy Js my personal opinion and F think supported at least by some 1 || cestimony that that would he the case. 7 The second argument. think, is a somewhat broader one, A | and [quess T'm not. prenaxs:! to make it. not we've had an 9 | incuiry iyte the CIA, same sf its problems. some of its | . 1°) accountability problems. some of its management problems, and 1} | ag a result of this inquiry there is,.at least it strikes fie vo bne being some. inconsistency to he araved hetveen having this a broad inaniry and endina up ohth A much stronaer, larser,. and. ia! more powerful Cantral Intelligence Aqency in avery respect | 7 Si caiecenneenneeanemeatnantintamemianaseeesaeaneraee ee is |lvith greater authority. ever other elements of the intelligence 146 i community. Now vou can only carry that so far but it seems to me 12 | that there is a serious tuestion here as to, and it is seen in 10. nart by other elements of the intelliyence community who really -are concerned. that hy wearing the two hats’, the DCI will still ec eee agencies like NSA and the others. ais That's the choice, a4 | My. ditene al fr. Ghetdesaan: $F fT covld anet note for . , oe og | the roeard that of the vitrovsses. cho testified Fefore the TOP SECRET | | . ae . OAS Pom ALL HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 34
x cath F 2 MO Ba SSW Committee. T believe the rosard reflects that Mr. Schlesinger | Adency, from the Director and all those who were still alive ito testifv who were former directors favored it, most notably i | | "as the only former DCI whe vag in favor of Separating the. Mr. McCone and also Mr. Helms, Mr. Helms characterizing. the . | ‘directcr.as ending up with a disembodied enirit if he were. Rp So I think as far as the racord aoes. I think the record ra | ” | danrived of. this analytical yohicle ! a | i | a its aqains*® divesting the Jiractor of the saeney. although’ thers t co 1a | is certainly evidence from those who felt that he should be. i), | Mr. Aaron. Let me see if Tocan «) larify that rors ipa little more. io “First of all, the rroposal is not to divest him from the id] analytical and production ‘funct Loa That we clearly provide is || for and !that wold: not take place. 16 The second point is that I believe the record goes to 1a | has to this time existed in the sort of qeneral kind ef oversee V7 the question of sorting Ok oF separating the director as he ee and the kind.of jawbone authority that he has had, And the | to haan nut in the context ofthat #as,: up until recentiv, his — authoritv in that canacity, and © might sav personally [ would agree with that. L.think £& cen cern to diverca “he director who essentially an core that have heen out to the witnesses generally have | | 7 | onty had tawhana ankhortbe from an agency. and the specific TO RA aRCRET AOE PAU HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 35-
"t De ay OT ag ro | jaravity that that qave bin. then he wenn t.d he a Jisembodied « Itsnirit. But we're talkin: about a somewhat, different situation | 2 iinow where he has ‘real authority over the budget. | on Mr. ‘Kirbow. Buk also presupposes. Mr. Chairman, that you; 5 have decided already that you're doing to separate, the analytical © | side of the house up there From the clandestine side af the -2 house and put them inte senarnta agencies a T don't believe the vommittee has dec:dad that. The 2 jpstafF mav.have. 0 Mr. Treverton, Th doasn't necessarily presuppose that. Mr. Kirhow. Tf he's croing to put-the analvtical siie | 1 of the house over there with the DCT .- Mr. Treverton, Well, in any sitnation we would leave - the Net with his responsihilit -y for estinates ana a staff to ‘do that. the CIA is stronaer. ty | ! 1s | I qrant that the araument for separating the DCL from i | | Senator Huddleston. Well, he wouldn't be without authori lover the Central Intellisenca Acency. He recommands the budget and tasks them. He giveg then the responsibility and apportion _ , oy | the resouress. Mr. Lombard, fovnrder it tT contd ask a question. ahenvid nok Ware boa Boe ete ef bho PST Frem theo acancy but ory that wee hamedounon Fh vroondention-as thay then knew it. TOP SECRET VOR & PAU HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 36
ryrahy HW 450955 KS on 14 NA Docld:32423509 Page 37_ ‘Funetion and-on top of that, worrving about the day ta day ‘whe is doing to supervise all of the intelligence the OCT, * Now my question is-thioe. Assuming that we were to achiev all of the measures in th. recommendations that we have here | f | | | For. the DCL budget and all the rest, it seems to me that that ig an awful lot of work whebant having to be concerned with the : day to day operations of the Ora, I don't know. I irst raise the question, Senator Huddleston: T think that's a qood point. Mr. Lombard. He Firck of all has to “resent the budget | ho the President. fa has be dat fond: the budaet ur on ‘the hill, | and that's in at leash four committees. And then he's got to have an analvtical bass, and nresumahly the national estim&te onevations af the Adency. I don't know if that is more than one may should be agkead: to do. | - Senator luddleston. ell, when we talk about major reorqanization. and re- assianmant of functions, almost. and. we're probahlv confusing thak by continuing to call the man Mr. Bader. Senator, what ve are antering into here is a neriod of transition fov tha net where he has new evsnonatbasha which are not certain at this point how they will he ‘onrenenteal Part of ae nreoh Len odth this daciaion ig. as hast heen staked cand meted. onto € ther beat diners of fermer pote Fg cadatnnk the backerrauna mye bias prearant aituabton. tie moak of oy FOP SEC CRET a
B yO ope HW 509455 Docld: 32423509 Page 36 lin light of how these reforms, if thev are reforms, are anrried out. Rees eR ae ag 38 it is not reallv relevant boa the cmestion of whet the OCI will he doing if, and I under!ina the word if. these new responsibili: ties that are being thrust on him by both tle Executive and by the Conqress, are in fact innlemented. The argument ITovowld mero here is that the oversight | committee should take some tire and consider this, certainly ‘Sepator Nuddlaston. “To that's ontion one. Mr. Mavis. The Preecntive Order is ‘an attempt to look at the problem and te make ona step which says there will Se 4. kya denuties. and therefore the OCI will havea someone who 4s managing his onerations and bakes some of the burden off and that's why they did it.. And in a sense. thev recognized the ‘aonfliek of interest and thia woe a sten in that-direction | whieh we are accepting, And whan vou sav who mrenares the buddet. vou have to be a little careful as to what that maans. 1 mean the money fa still authorized ke othe denartmants. ‘Thev will still have their own budgetary preesss, and how exactly. he gets control over thak at this noint te unclear. Nelre qivina him lanquage u sheut how it's aninga to heonmen, and I think that's the aranmant For waitine = shark time to esse chethar or net he Mr Raren. Tors abr teak sow thak ve have ta leok at (OP SECRET srk om, Faust co
HW 50955 FE, ty 14 L6 an mt) Bocld: 32423509 Page 39 pronosels or recommendaticns., this recommendation as verti, onot simnly in the eentext of the President's own oroposals ond own measures that ha has taken but: in terms of the measures which we pronose be Laken in statute. which of course the oversiahk committee or whatever responsible lecislative committae vill have the power to dispose of these Rut in that context it's very clear that we do sive very unambionous authority. very atrona ambhorev a r think Liv noked a Few other points chara we actually strenathened the, | thrust of the Pvacutive Order. And so when wa look at the ouestion of whether he should ar should nok, whether we shuld ox shonld not recommend that in the context n€ this kind of anthority there will aleo he Aavelopment ef a stabutea that wonld senarate these Functions, i” has to he seen aceinst what we nropose and not-what the Cresident just nronesed. we have recommended so far should come to. nass and the DCI should have the exnanded rassonsibility and authority. he would he aA inare nowerfil wan if he was separated From the oneration OF the Agency. He wonid he a more powerful man then than ha is now as runndac Khe Aseney and heing the so-called ceerdinator, would he nok? Mr. Mavie, Tha tie aovreck. thats bhe rurnose. Gannber Mathias, tie teh teman de se haya ana beoskimonyv t 4 | Senator Huddleston. rhea. fact is that if everything | | | | Bees blhar onepeney heats he blew agli wiew this onicskiont? TOP SECRET re PL
t i { Ceyt ot hoy Mr. Tambard, Ge force ems Frem the Pry 2 . Senator Huddleston. The TA would favor separating the ya, Mr. Miller. Ceneral Atlen has alse said that, 5 | Mr. Kirhow. General Aflen at. the meetinda when this eaealiecieemsenecaetinedeeene area © jivan discussed, he indicated that this haa not created any me ; nroblem for him, that he didn't sea anv favoritism being m8 | Adepiaved on the nark cf Meo cathe and the maple he dealt with. } . Mr » Maxwell. ff think that's part of “the reagan why a ; | number of va had favored omkion mumber ons, AS that a great Tidis tt ti ur racommendatians was ta ateva tha Dor mare authority. But * tet dette mn GERSTNER ce ch that has nok hoen gerted ovt oe | | dee} nf the hrouble with the Mrasident's Eveautive order and t | j for the neriod of time in oh 14 fpand we don't have a record for. te take away or recommend takin< if || avav essentially the troops that thea ICT had used. which in the future honefully he would not need if recommendations on . yy ii berh sidas enme into heing vould he to wanken him at a crucial yq ib tima as neonle bry to FTL in thea vacuum that ie creaked, yo Senator Guddlestoen, of think the avuestion then is whather nar not what wa are recommendine actually comes to nase. If it . Ff t o, || anes come tol pass. then thie te an issue thak naeds to he: eo || addressed. n an It ar the other cps OG Phoas Lh de until such fhime ss Lb has been datermined that it qa or BE RE 7 | ‘| oa flim tha reeerbk aro cheaphtoos se omkinr: swe fndicntad hera, Leare \ HW 50955 Docld: 32423509. Page 40
jew be advantaqeons bo tepsrate them, i : a e i lg that what we'rs saving there? | — | | 7 | By Mr. Aaron. Yes. $f think there are really three options. 4 j One is to leave the stuff out. and my own personal preference § would be to leave it out entirely if the committes did not | feel that, if it didn't went fo recommend that. It's kind of 7 a half-hearted --- pol Senator Hart. dings o> Administrakion already tnaken a v 9 | eten in this direction with the reoreaniszation? we . Mr. Aaron, Tt has hy charaing the new denuty out there 11 | and saving he's going te have more authardty. : 4 3 fi . oo poll. Senator Hart. Wowodeés one rerister disaqreement with Ta ij that? Voke for cnotion one? cad Mr. Aaron, Tf vou thoudht that was inadeunate. you. (5 |i wonld. vote for number ane. it'es wrong. I vote for ortien one, i I t Ves | (Mr, Inderfurth. his also comes ur under nart 4S(d), this. whole discussion of onftions- separating out. an Me. Aaron. Thatic a serarable question, the anuestion . 21 of the skruchure of the Aeramey Lteelf. cen WE Mr. Davis. Under the Enacutive Order this new denuty oz | for tha irtealliaqence como tts de ohysicaliv moving out of afl ; yr | | Tenmaley aed oceania deccbeocg That's suprased te be sumbolic t aeogedy) of the sermarat len - eee i | { | | 16) ; Senator Hart. I don't think it's inadequate, 1 think: | } | I | ao HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 41. 70 &® PAUL
‘HW 50955 aon net. \ | hrief statement of position? a Senator Huddleston. vont we solve it bv dust having a narrative statement at the and of all of these recommendations relating to. the DCI to say that the foreqoina, preceding recommendations would, if carriat out. substantially strengthen the role of the DCI or thev are intended ta de that? | And this brings up the cmestion as to whether or not in this expanded role he shonld also at the same time he essentialiv responsible For the nveration of one af thea agencies land that this matter, ans his dutisas are exoandad , this matter needs to he considered further and a determination made whether or not it's appropriate that he continue te hold. that 4} & i F rasnonsihility. “that's not a recommondation. “Trts tust a conmentarv on whak we have done. Mr. Kixrhow, It hidhliahts the nroblem and passes it to the oversight committee, which would have time to conduct hearings on it after some > history had haen established on the new role, Senator Mathias. tnuid Sanator Hart elaborate on his Senator Hart. Fo think hhe division out there Fhat annarently the President has varked ort is a bad ane. nd rT. for ane would Like te anon eacord semashere or anoth=r as enakoar, Fhat iO SI RC CRET They PUN _Bocla: 324235509 Page. 42 |
HY SO955 m 1 ‘ m || { 1 y fib earac o i that. Lothe ) ode ja || resnonsibilities Yoon same 1! uk 1 thar { | i and | | } | | DocId: 32423509 Sena This Ms. Mr. utive 4a Sena same th Mr. tien th Sena Mr. Sana of the tor Hart. means a damned thing, fre: life that work in my Li is the -_ Culbreth. T Kirbow. . At | Order leaves the NCI as emity ouk th fa. ' habits the presank time. Neaad are ter Wart. welt, ind. ‘Aaron. Sena ato owe haven tor Hart. Yor. bor, Aaren.. Make Him in other tor Hart. Well, 't eoneidared? Toedont’t want to name any names but. oR hank thie Ps. nf the CIA chat daes th tT Tike that ¢ 7? ra) FEV i & th run ik but araas? Bast sork of nameloas, fFoeejloss thers running operations Litv to Sana hea dora nya ber, tafyece bt lyar Page 43 report vrerare., ‘Tf indeed aasine Fic CUT CP ES Bel cate tees a tar Huddlecte mR. fhe sddpkianal fed Mey Td inoaffect Vad] weiocia o you ha -e bite Sena with aiday ecua lL -- As @ way qive hy nenny e with 3 vo that le dotted line 've never seen an, organization tor, the Fxecutive a strong kind of to day rurning of . it)) op ly less wall. Th thera another ie is nov. im other that have been | ome vadue rcespon- in practice when | | | | 2 A ea | eens mempeepee ese ont e M een = eee: erermnenraancnisaneite trent « ather rercammendatiang ma inta effec edgy sh bonald arbor d bey eerge le authority stit) ought tel ROR Tats om PONE over kha bkotal ta ba voedtewad ‘to on
© Hite oneratine head, ; | I 1 * G % ‘4 . mod You know, that car be a dissipation of his accountability: fl -You have a man that is so involved in so many other things | | -  y oa . 7 | that some nameless nearson is under him calling the shots. But Ho, . ee ; . : h ) Tf we were to move him away From that. then that nameless person i ‘4 | bacomes the man that. we're looking to. as far as the operation y j-of the CIA is concerned. 7 . yf. moc Mr. Kirbow., At thot time too wou ldy he you expect that | | thak narson would he named as the Director of tha CIA. would he’ nominated bv the President and contirmed by the Senate?. ceed j | | | - Mr, Miller. What's vwrond with having the DCI in onprge | | of the comnunity as Lona an. tha deput: is under his direct is, | control? rq li iGenator luddleston. Well. you have the covmunity of the iA ; | re HSA, You don't call the direckar ouk there the director of the | | [We should be consistent po ds Myr. Aaron. Ootion 2.-~- we'd have a clear deputy, we'd fo:inew who hea was. Held be monfirmed hy ths Sanake. He'd Be a- 4 a iman ofletature and he wouldn't he anyooly's deputy. ta would i | o} lie. resoonsihie. i D3 \D Mr. Kirhbow. We wouldn't be a deavuty at all. He'd be f ' a the Airactor of CIA. Pa “y 1 : H . i, ; : : | Serko Tadd bea bken | tee feb daa boos Teywaqba Fhe daniuhey for i i amerabions bale kha chive ct { - i os ee on i eee Te ain EERE t= eBhthy= =p arement rt-ememneteenenn toe eget HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 44
i fF i Poy Senator Mathias, . ten’h that in effect taday except for ; . : 1 a ) bee titles? oo 7 4 i Mr. Aaron. Not exactly because he stiil reports to the 1 o | OCT. Maybe nact of vour suantian aoes to who that person ought ‘ta he and what Kind of remiiremenks there. oudht to be on that, shore, or “ is really the Prasident's orde| fy /hother you want to deseriln the kind of. person you want out | Senator Mathi ag, Aldean | -O | exceot tay the semantics. Te | Mr. Bader. Nok really. Senator. liq. Mr. Quanbeck. Omtinn 2 actually separates. the ae , e tee : - _— 3 yo | would be differenk from the Mirector of CIA. 3 4 Mrs Aaron. The auv vou would hold resnonsible under fe F the auv vow would hold resvensible wonld he the head of that 146 || agency and not Mr. Bush, in offact. rir Sanator Wuddlastor. lf we ag to mv narrativenaragraph ot ia | “Senahor Hark. Cano owe have thak written uo and brought — jo dt hack? . 1 i } 14) the current svstem still hes to be the pcr. - Under option 2 | i | Senator Mathias. ' think this sould he a oritical | i anes l oe. Tt recameandation, - Senator Unddleston.  ' wos qoind to say we miqht add a { Tine in thera that acresszon b>) raview th and passibly to chande og PLANS PY mapa Ho, . ; , Z _ ey ibm bry Doormat besryet a Fo Ble tee fps [ faute t 1 i cle yete ASTON, FOP 3e ECRET ae Tt OP HY 50955 DBocld: 32423509 Page 45
HW 50955 Bocld: 32423509 ; That would be fhe cin "von would move the NCI ave y f Prk eronerate vour national intel I i a Senator Mathias. | 1 { i } t licence officer, that re Son Fhab To oweyuld think vem bhat. it does not arrear to me that you whatever vou tomeone ‘tan also point " Heall him. just because vou tne alse you i . ts } En. I think vould aero tveo fish on the same hook if something WrOoned . m | TOs | Mr, Aaron. To think that vould be in mart true) Jepending | | Lan lumen wi hat hhe particular preh lant wag, | ii |! Senator Mathias. Uell, sure, if thoir checkwriter is i j - : . Lo 3 po dietk ef wack and they haven’h called iu tha ranairman. they. : niche confine the respons iit ity to 11 | Senator Huddleston. Actually, you don't exonerate him. i : ; in | At T see dt for the operations of the Cantral Intalligence ig | Agency vou have added tn finn the responsibility for the . , oe “yu | omarations of the other intc)licvance agencies. too, and he has a . bod tn raview authority and be in fact wold be the focal roint of | ey | ‘ . : ’ . yo | any misdeed or wrona dard thar may accur. wheather it's in | ee WT USS or CIA or whatever. H ; 1 || Mr. Aaron, [to owortd esaliss be very similar Fe the rola. an | he would new have under tho Proerubkive Order to the NSP. f ont mich clases to that. rade Get Py overs 4 1 ! Bs payaaranh and opvestiont it ei bhens : | ‘Ehiss afternoon, or at Rye? Cnyer. I : : Yay ge a eS rye L 4G" wea” R oa , Page 46 7 SR PAE | i | | | | 7 | | = cae L |
i 44 i f ! boo Mow the next sactton prefers ta the Central Intellicaence 1 bereaneaa es much of our inquiry is Aqency in qeneral. Now | { | a | fooused on the Central Intellinerce Acenev, we Nave a rather I . - tos ee, jp Eames series of recommendations reaarding ik. i | 5 Now the sections are ibrintly these -- thesa dealing with ns ji the cherter for the Aceneys. for its conduct of esntoneade, yn iegunter-intellidence: and coverk action, and the auestion ef DQ | caverk action “itself. haw fo niehkt he conducted endowiet Llimitathe t 4 : stohk specifically. or rules aac resulatiens michb anniv to it | | | | | | The oroduction of inkel licence. which is on its’ way, buk Lek's not in here, thera is umobhar sevktion. Then the impatt On | | | the tomas tic world of these oakivitien both intebiiqencs , | collection and covert action and L belicve van hud a «90d Jiscussion af that longer naner mvenared hy Mr, hades rhe | ather day. | | Anil then finally. somes discussions nf the inspection jo ll evstem, the veneral caunse). hho insnectox canons} antl so forth. yo and some recommendations in vacard Eo thak, * ar; Thase are the mentradl. carts of Lk. ft ineloced of course, euch mathers as cnronrieterien, onver and sa forth, a6 -. Now if we mould tino be foe Firsk set af racennondations, heavk Phat onenad bey Can tepcselih bry ener at bonkian! woo Plagees PEL 8 RRP bhews are) There are Phones that woo Re PA Tekome dueh make sure Phat Phore corn bab igagresmerts on the HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 47
co tA os 44 i that subsequently found theixs war hack here in the exact oridinal lancuade, HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 43. on Sere aareacd WPON at the hot ates] thab vers jeth ok. Mr. Aaron. I have one here, “Mr. Kirhow. Well. cet far your information. there AMMeAarS to he several things ahieh were nok just an occasional one but saveral things thabko vere adareed on at the staff level Bat Towontbh dweller chek nee, Mr. Faron. Cid be Grae fe take that ank ta dea what we can do abant it. Now fhe fFirsk hrackek theak- DE Find isa ov padre 46. + oy. there are ony others hefoerea bbat thak peente have. wa ean take fhak ue, Mi. Maxwell, whesets mane an 32, Ekle nota hracket: but Aaa wag a statement that wy b ed howe been dhaluded as tothe | t committee's findings as. to internet centrols on espionade pokivities by the Central Takelligenae Agency. “Mr. Aaron. Yes. TP reveal? that one. Mr. Maywell.- Aleao an thik naae there's no av fective machinerv to make sure bkhet those outrids the clandestina om geryvdce P think that waa ovttreseed to the CIA beceuse unless a finding te made at bhe Cin bhatt the bof at this neirt. the Mies bor FOP SECRET
ie iy ee, ‘ be ty : Mr Tiaswel TL. Pips or eeesar Pray] oa wadrankh en 32 the way | m dit reads. it assumes thoi the Miyoctor of the Central Intelligence Aqency who is outside the clandestine service is not able to | ensure -- i | 1 Bo Mr. Aaron. To underskeud. “You're right. Chay, if these i are agreed things and thas have been dronned out, then let's I 7 ll dust get them hack in. FoAanth know that we have to take the | . p euhcommittee's time fe dea 4 | i Bet LF we misserocsems thak vers disaareec and naad te he khroudht ta the aubermmettbroeo. LT'd lika to make sure we det them out. | a $ B 3. Sanator Huddleston. Xb tha bebhom of the nade-on 73, BES mavie it's tusk ret coming theeadh te me but the “lA engages | 4: V4 In beth overtoand clandeshive acbivity citbin the Unittrd States ty For the nurnose of forcian inkellleence eollection hy evert ie | means from American. citizens. pen | Mr. Aaren. Tim sorry. € think that foreign intelligenc wo , to | aellection. meried, and tien tire rest cf that sentence comes yo} owk. | mn 7 oo a, oO er Pne@ then it says the domeetia collection dees the overt, | — on l and the fareian resouress coos the covert, oe. Il Okay. omy first brackel is on made 36 and it is that the | I . e i Cemmpbtae auegtions the practice of rearedibine for fore.iqn . H . yo : . oy lh Gertenade Bpyreerea  odinmdascets Terdirint Spertonn obthisenshic. 1b gar danas : fl ; | “Eg Bm ee go « 43 es ay ie . . i oo oo aa ee x ip Stk HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 49
' { 4 ' he a . . .. ee bo §dnekances in which thoes a cere jiumiarantks to the tnmited States — A : : : a \ et : nee .] ; £ | who wished to have citis:icthin vere then approached by the | intelligence agencies and sither sent back as legal travellers and what have sou and the ausstion being. the point of concern - heing that their vulnerable status of wanting to have rermanent i . |citizershin in the country morta them more suscéptible to Y¢ etther actual or implied or sven imagined threats or inaqined ® | coercion. i | | G M7, diCenova. Can Toush ao question about that? I'm jo j-tetativ unfamiliar with the subject and lad like to know what the evidence was on the racerd,. oo 3 Mr. Aaron. Te came us in two cases that T recall] ahd va ytd like far RiLI to sreak te ane of thaw. one case involved . ia the Chinese in which the Chipease were annrnached and used for ! - ; this ournona, Tam notoeetara of anv festimany that there was ead | in fact coercion involved. The auestion was the vractice and jo | whather ih has within it elements of cnercion or at least the yo | matential for it. aay tb Now the sacond case. Y think vou can sneak bo. r rat her, Bader. Wa have. reveicad testhimany fram a nrofessor { : oy | fram sini versity in-the Southwest that seid that he had acted an oe . . . : - : . . . no ll or was the middleman in an oreration ef recruitment of Jewish Hi euaestan deviaranks who ames re the Undted Skateag vhe ty particular a trap Pubmed fe royce a bls Voimetarn Teyviak dmntoroanka wha foureye cpadiiee cepmep dn bes ot ti ah oorecumehts afker coon tenant bhev — FOP SECRET \ rey mE! HW 50955 Docld: 32423509. Page 50
Crt 5 1 o7'% fete ! ‘ i i it 1 1 a) | if ; | i { tohad in the original 9 ™ Bey would return to the Unita States. 1 We did not take that testimony anv further than receiving his testimony. That is, we have not |}asking the agency whether in fact they have such a program in the charge Ms. Culbreth. can here? “What is the wrong thet ha Mr, Kirbow. What's wrond sidgastion The only human coklecticn the Tron Curtain in Russia today ' which I. personally save some real credibility to. “mt HR 8 a maan the Soviet 'Inion. taken it to che point of erate atc er rE re ene sanesfetntteeeerereim wien « Southwest. So the testimony was Limited to that one yon explain just what the charge is 2k = been dane? with that? That's the question at the staff level. we are getting from behi is principally either though our cooreration with the community using just this sort of individwal and this type of individual from the We're not what the testimony was. To ao on to the to he addressed by the whether we should, the The. mreeags of seeking Ame Powe TOP Committees. recruiting foreigners in this country for intelligence purposes,|. . veonle who may return ko their amintry of oriain. emeation is vbether the individual whe is ciktieenshin are in auctes SECRET | sending them back, or sending tnited States back inside. “Mr. Bader. I was only responding to the question of.) further issue which TI think id going - it's not the question of getting the other human intelligence. . o _ Cankral Intelligence Agency should be in the “vulnerab VON FID Ae PAUL HW 50955 Doold: 324273509 Page 51
i | Goo SAI A a = ag i | to exploitation for such rurneses and whether in that shading 2 | the Committee would wank to take a position about recruitment S| of that particular group. 4 oil Mr. diGenova. My position is this, Bill. The first i : ‘ fj | time I heard about this was when I read it in these findings . 4 | and corclusions. I never saw a hearing on it, I never saw a I . 7 | document about it, I never had a chance to comment on it as. R | a desianee. and I never had a chance to bring it uo with my q | Senator. 10 | I'm not sure that we vant to say this, ask the Senators | i i | to say this. without having something in a report. about! wiht. 1. | the practice is, how it's heen conducted, who has objected t ye it. what's the extent of it. before we start making a- recommendation. 14 is | We're saying we auestion the practice of recruiting. 16 _ I have no objection to the Committee ultimately making. 1" a statement like this, I just don't know what the record is. 1A iThis is the first time I've ever seen this. 19 fy “Mr. Bader, That's why IT wanted it bracketad so it. could 20 be so discussed. 24 | “Senator Hart. Whet if we said we urge the permanent: ee l oversie ht committee ‘to loot into this cuestion? D2 L Mr. Aaron. T think th would make some sense to have 24 Jonteen the Agency on the reeert that in fact this i¢ - oractice i. . { 5 vor somethine that hanoeses TOP SECRET | : WARD & PAUL Oo oy HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 52
“ mpsthy Lo Senator Wart. If it's hanmneninag, { don't think it should 2) | tf we have to sacrifice sume human intelligence, I don't think . A we ought to have a CIA auy tuading on. somebody 's sleeve who's~ A i filling out his immigration forms because it is a verv subtle ie 5 jj and very powerful form of coercion, 6 I don't think it should ao on if it is going on but... 7 |) T think the oversight committee should find out. | 9 Mr, Bader. It's mv narsonal position on this that Lo | come to a conclusion on this — an I nersonally think that tt's a problem that shouiadbe i) wa don't have the evidence. We have not taken it through to | nointed put. and I think nerhans niv own view is that the formulation of a recommenation to look into this. ag a possible, I "|: es problem would be my recoitmendation. | 6 _ I don't believe that is havid's recommendation. 16 Senator Mathias. T would think that you mignt as yeu 17. contemplate this thing. there are all tvnes of opoor tunities ca 19 .,| for this and T don't have any idea whether it's been done or not, yo | but x would think an illeaal alien, for -examnie, would be a - 7 no tremendous target. 21 | Mr. Aaron. 1 might juet say ~~ | no | “Senator Mathias. Thin a different nroblem, | Mr. Raron. Tt's a snbtle orohlem hecause abroed i personal weg involved in a case ta ebich someone seaking ta omicrate to the tinited States. hie lesins to “9 that was exnteit ted abroad we At & OAL HW 50955 Docld:32493509 Page 53
HY 50955 4 esl .- a . for the purpose of cethins him into the Acancy. Senator Mathias. ihis is the kind of situation I'm thinking of, perhaps not an iJlecal alien. but someone who is in this country’ in some sert of lagal status but which is of temporary duration and he wants to change his status. Senator Iluddleston. I can see that. Of course you're ‘not going to get one unless thera's something he wants. ‘Most. of them, it's elther money or some change in his status. Mr, Aaron, Wa drafted this languace to make clear that . they were really imnioronts and they wera not illagal aliens . or neonle here changing their status or people outside exjing toa net in, vbut~ neonte whe are inside applying for their citizenshin, | Senator Hart. We could offer an ontion to have the Statue of Liberty sav aive we vour huddled masses if you work for.the CIA, and that exploiting peopls ohn legitimately want to be United ates ‘citizens. I also believe that. martienlarly anvone ‘from the Sov Waton over here trvine to bachbma an American citizen, it's aoing “to pretty well diminish hig. chances ‘it he dneas- qo hack . ‘to the Soviet Union that he's aging ta be taken into the ceanfideanae cf vero many meople over there, Me. Kirbow., This fa nok an uncommon practice bor the Tor SECRET WAIT & PAUL Bocld: 42425509 Page 54 + -eomerene | meme ceersnimcanin «geen ena rire saunter eeonercererear: + ~ eapnanepgemeentaron : et Senator Uuddleston., I ‘think there! sa leqitimate | |
HW 50955 16 17 18 OP ome ee GP LB , f | | liindted States. We've heen dnina it in the United States | : | qlaitary for generations ip giving earlier consideration for. citizenship if he serves on active duty as an alien in the | United States: armed forcas. It's been done as leony as I can remember and I was in - i} the military over 25 years. | Mr. Maxwell. I think the only question is if wa m’ | recommend aqainst this practice if we don't oven know ~-- Senator Huddleston. Tt bothers me that we would indict the Acdency with such scant evidence: we have, Mr. Aaron. My recommendation is that we'-gat- the:-Agency } Mr. Kirhow. 1 recommend it - be drormed frem thie if we had only one witness and we've not heard the Agency or that we develop a record to support both that and‘the sama | { | ji on record as to whether this is the practice or not, | record on either. Mr. Raron. We doa have a record on that. “It! 8 an” | snvervien record, it's not a avorn testimony record, But. the | first sentence, there is an interview | to support that. part of that first paragraph; which I don't think we have, a A “Mrs Kirhow.. Mr. Chairman. I think the subcommittee - should carefully consider whether or not it is concerned about. the tice of American companied in the oureuit of foréidn | or otherwite. TOP SECRET WARD % PAUL | | intetiicenca and ‘fo so. fow this imoacts on anybody's rights | Docld:32423509 Page 55
“We just went throvsh this the other day with the labor 2 }tunions. The whole paraqrerh. 3 Senator Huddleston. 1 have some concern with that too. 4 | hen we talk about expressly uorohibiting penetration of | American companies, it seems to me that the question is whether ' or not we're penetrating those companies with company executives). 74 | being unwitting or whether -~ B “Mr. Aaron. That's the point. . Q° Sevator Huddleston. rt seems to mé the real problem is 10 | when we wera doing it secretly. | | | 11 | Mr. Aaron. And that's the point. . a s LP Senator Huddleston. The company ought to have the | 13 | tight to make a determination as to whether or not ites interest would be severely jeopardized if this were to happen. Mr. Treverton. Tf think ‘this lanquade probably isn't. clear enough. If wa did human penetration without the knowledge of the company on the operation of the company: orimarily tao | | | Mr. Kirbow. Welra talking about a corporate operation on || against a U.S. company in the United States? ca a -. My. Traverton. Presumably it would not be in the u:S, 99 Mr. Kirhow, Tf that's what's intended, it dees not: convey it ta even an inferred reader: Senator flucdlester, Hell. we sav foretan intelligence mollection. a “eT | | TOP SECRET AO he PAUL ! | | HW 350955 DBocld:327423509 Page 56
Fnd 3A, HW 450955 fei 4 6 | | | | | | | | | | | | CIA: through the foreian resources | division: and the Americans t i |. gk eet MEER Mr. diGenova. May 1 ask in this regard, it ends up | bv saying, although according to CIA officials such activity |nas not taken place -- what's the other evidence that it has | which created the sentence? | | Mr. Aaron. In looking at what the foreiqn vesources | division does in the way of penetration (of businesses as iF 1 | Prpeses to collecting aqdents on campuses or in some other | atk of life, we found that the FPp actually runs agents in | , ioniv a fey eases, The cases are Americans smployed by local. industries in | the United States or constilates, | In other words, in ditlomat consulate establishments in which there ara few cases in which indeed the Americans | yorking for those diplomatic establishments are agents of the are not officers of the CIA but they were agents, of the CIA. in. that resnect. Mr. Kirhbow. They work jin the embassies as you gay? | Mr. Aaron. Yes, tiare in the United States. and this is talking about domestic imnack. This is not thé forsign sitvation. There has heen at lesgt one caer and T belive there are tuo buk onty one T can enaoify. dn which the FRD had an [mexican agent tn oa fored¢m comranv., a fForeiqn-haced ccmnany - | . a \ It was very unambiquous phat tha company was a Fnretas company TOP SECRET | , Warp & PAUL Docld:324273509 Page 57
Cpi 5 3 Gg 190 18 Lo 20 bi at Gos ey FG oz) because in effect it was a nublic company of a country whose most business enterprises are owned by the government: But and the question was, and it related to -- Mr. Kirbow. And this sqent was apparently here in the i for us. LL you from doing the same thing with an American company? And the answer was no, we don't, although we don't do that or we haven't done that or something to that effect. as recommendations without implying that A, these had gone on land B, that we have a record to. support that. there's also. I guess. a slight question in mv mind « from this in the promulaation of a specific directive. to dron: that to a footrets or to fo Lk in some cther way, | . AYOATIO PAUL HY 50955 Bocld:324273509 Page 58 it's a company and it's business and it was a foreign company | United States?. . a Sy, ‘The next question that’was put to, I believe, the chief of the FRD was do you have any reaulations that prohibited. — | -- That is essentially the story and how it came to pass. whether there are ways of saving things that are important on . to the order of magnitude &f the recommendations that flow — Thak's slightly out of swneh with the order of some of | | the other recommerdetions. The Committee might want to choose Ao ener EFOSC etetttertnterie neice + vey Mr. Aaron. Collecting intelligence on the activities of |° | that comoanv hecause that company had foreiqn policy implication Mr. Maxwell. There's some cuestion on both of these...7/, |: reenter ete ing cement nant : eee serena
jira SECRET cet € | | me Mr. Aaron, The roncmmandation that relates to that is. £ | where? 4 Mr. Maxwell. I thought that we had made a finding. It 2 | was. number 25 on 39, That's a somewhat different order. . 5 Mr. Aaron. No fT take it that -- 5 || Senator Huddleston. Is this penetration always inthe. | 7 context that it's unwitting? 7 R | Mr. Maron. Yes. Tf it's witting, it's really collaboratiic o | which is another matter. 9. | Oo | On Senator Huddleston, So although you could ba witting -~ 114 Mr. Aaron, Well. the penetrating also applies and 12 | mayhe we should also make ‘thie clear, but tor the purposes of Vs conducting some creration with reqard to the oraanization, - 14 | whether to make it do somethind in the covert action sense 1s which collect information on it, | 16 If it were simply unwitting cover, that's a different... Mr. Maxwell. I don't think, Navid, that penetration was 1 | used in a context in the agency in the NH/BOUND -- | 20 | Mr. diGénova. Penetration was for security purhoses. | 7 2) re s to ) discover whether or not there is in fact a fly in the - 09 | ointment with reqard ta the sacurity of an American company. ode na | cenater meldeston. Thebkia putting a eny in the | [ronan bo TOP SECRET | HW 50955 Docld: |: 324423509 Page 59 WAND ® PAUL
re rar Na A nna Mr. diGenova. Well, vas. In this case they penetrated no Burbank, California and other companies, mostly defense oa 5 contractors building planes in order to find out they had: 7 4 security ‘risks, a laborer ov an executive. inside. 5 Mr. Maxwell. It was witting to a certain extent, | ' Mr. Bader. I think one of the problems we have here is. |. q [on question of whether in our formal recommendations that we’ | 8 i should enjoin the agency Eran Aging thinds that they dan't do. 4 and where. there's no evidence they have any intention we 190 | Mr. Kirbow. The ‘47 Act rrohibits this kind of conduct LW | within the United States... Shay | . — . a Le.H. Mr. Bader. And.I think that that should be carefully” . | considered. We have no evidence that the Central Intelligencé 14 ‘Agency penetrates Conqressional staff, but we have nok put it "7s | in as a recommendation that thev should not penetrate 16 Congressional staffs. | : ae T think the other matter that has been raised about: thes: | “Sin axploitation of reorititing individuals who are: 6 in» fe va ten immigrant status and decking a change a change in ctatus,*~ : . wo | we ao at least have what I held to bea responsible | source “i -- - . 51 savind that this practice, he has seen this in practice. E gg x ‘think we should senarate the two issues and on the : 23 ‘second one it saints to rie that if we could frame some" Languace i 2 oa || that is lanquaqe ef mantion and concern. or 8 shonid move vert, } ne auicklv. it seems to mo. bo take come testimony from khe Agency TOP SECRET WAR & PAUL HWW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 60
HY 50955 co. o 10 | : Docld: 32423509 Page 61 ‘about it later on and someone comes back and reviews these | the second one of expressing concern if indeed there is ae RM. te oe’ fan Ae Be he an that matter before we oan talk about the matter of the nractice. of recruiting hecanuse ~ don't think we can use the. word practice until such time as we have ~~ Mr. diGenova. I didn't mean to impugn the integrity of your source. The cauestion is if the Committee gets asked a question: | records and sees one nerson vas spoken to or somethina. r don't realiv think that’s much of a record to go areund making | Findings and conclusions in 2 final report. It has nothing to do with the integrity of the fnan-- from whom the information came. He's probably right. oe Mr. Aaron. I'd like to recommend that on that narticula ooint we tried to nail down with the Agency a little more carefully what the current rolicv or nractice is and on the question -- but I still stand with the view, r might say, on practice and we do know that sore of it has taken place in the nast, if there's still no atiard against it, then ft think perhapa - Senator Hart's recommendation about how the oversight committee should pursue this question firther would he sufficient. Senator Huddleston. Well, paragraph 22 over on 39, Lf applied to the FPR, weuld ke a pretty good approach, I think Mr, Aaron. That could not necessarily rile out -- it would not sten un te todas mention, This really is aimed abroac TOP SECRET went & PAUL
ie Dkr ai 3 at the question of duplication with overt reporting by the a In other words, it's trying to establish a standard. 1 i | i a 2 military attaches or by the foreian service or whomever. Senator Huddleston. Say, so where are we? Mr. Aaron. I think wé'ra at the Following point that 6 || as far as the bracketed sentenca is concerned, we'll go back 7 | to the Aqencv and establish what the practice is vhen review. 8 | is necessarv of including tie paragraph alons the lines. 9 suaqested .yy Senator Hart saving the oversight committees should | | 10 || lnok into this particular prantice if indeed it is a practice | | with the absence of policy on this point. 4 “ 12 | As to the question of Amarican companies, tI think I oe a 14 , still need to he directed as to how to deal with that. I 1A | think when in doubt, delete. . | Senator Hart: Can we just commend them for that? Can | 16 | we say it's a good practice? cai | Mr. Aaron. Well, the Committee notes that it's been af the practice not to do this and that that should continue as . 1¢ in a vart of their standard procedures. | | ae 90 |. i: Senator Mathias. liave we ever conmended them? 21 Mr, Rader. There is much text here which talks about ea | sehgible, resvonsible practices, | 02, | ' Sanator Mathias. T de think vou should mention that ak aA ; talking about their domestic onaration= of American companies. } 88 | 7 he. Aaron. Yeas... ©RO is sepposed to tell vow ehat but: | | r: | TOP SECRET ‘MEU Fe PRUE HY 50955 DBocld:324273509 Page 62
i I i" doesn't a | Senator Mathias. If think on page 36 and 39 it ought .-- 3 ! to refer to domestic operations. | woe f : a. | Mr. Kirbow. I think we miqht want to consider too that 54) there's an extensive section of the domestic activities of the CIA coming into.the domestic task force revort; the subcommittee|'s |! report. And 1f don't put ina’: = comment like this, it'll = |: i orebably ‘all go~- cin that other section. Whereas here we're” dealing with an apparent nossibility that sometime in the i : a the. abuse section and this kind of departs from what you" done otherwise. | - Mr, Rader, I would say on that score that this is a | | | | | | . | _ _ ° remote future there could be an abuse and there” dealing with. |... ! | | | | { I}. a . kd | foreilon intelligence matter. That is the objective, And I think if it's going to he mentioned, it should be mentioned Mr; Kirbow. It is on the immigrants, but I don't think. - j Le ver, whether or not you're panetrating an American company to illegally or anything els2. if there's any way you can aet aroura 7) Loy | 20 | the 1947 Act which prohibits that kind of. activity hv the | 91 | CTA in the United States for whatever purpose, td penetrate | 22 ) them other than security of your own facility: | ai | Mr; Maxwell. One thing that might make this easier is x | " oa | think that if veernresaad and concern tn that direction mista | 288 | in regard to this practices. ue would qet one promutaaked quite | . ne WAeGD & PAUL | HW 50955 ° DoclTd: 32423509 ‘Page 63
pale bod i a od 1 mulckly. 2 Mr. Aaron. I would recommend that we accept the 3 auqgestion that we put this in a positive sense and proceed 4 ‘| on that basis and clarity the word penetrate and the fact ] | that. it is the domestic aspect. 6 - Mr. Kirbow. Could ve ask the Agency to comment in 2 gome way so that at least wa don't recommend to you that you -- |” 8 | Mr. Aaron, t'd be hapny to do that acain. 2 | Senator Huddleston. Wall, now it's 12:09, I hone there's” 10 | some wav we can get through this today, which would inelude © | | of omer a night session which Senator Mathias and I are ae an Wa'va done 39 pages out of 160. | 1A | | Mr. Aaron. I think it will give focus essentially on Ls ! the recommendations and the bracketed portions that that fe 18 | ghould prove possible +o at least break the back of it: | - { ‘ mo . 1? Senator Huddleston. ée can at least try. : | My, Karon; If we come hack at 2:00, I think we could 12 | orohably have cleared ava a couple of the other sections and | 20 ‘then we will be really ready. Mle will have the full book here | BL | and we Gan qo at Aes | ; | 2a | | Senator Mathias. 4:09. I think. would be hetter ene 23 | Let's say 2200, | ) 24 | ‘Senator HucAleston. He'1 adjoren until 2:00. | 25 | (Jhereucon. at 12209 o'clock noon, the hearing in | | : ‘TOP SECRET HW 50955 DocId: 32423509 Page 64
the above-mentioned matter was recessed, to reconvene at Ps q 2-00 o'clock of the same day.) . 4 e 2 : . ‘TOP SECRET MARO & PAUL HW 50955 DocTd: 32423509 Page 645
iS eo gt BA ke vl : o2a i: It 2 Mr. BAder. Mr. Chairman, before you. begin I might... 4% oo , oo so . 3 mention’ that tomorrow mornina at either 9 or 10:00, depending - 4, upon whether this subcommittee meets tomorrow morning, wé've 5 jj arranged for representatives of the FRD, the Foreign hEsources “8 | bivision of the Central Intélligence Agency, to give UB. ad | testimony on some of these issues that have been raised, such‘a R | the use of immigrants; some of the figures that they've given us,” Q | and this question of penetration of American businesses. Ww That will be scheduled, as I sav, at either 9 ox 20200}. 11 | depending on whether the subcommittee meets tomorrow morngng.. | 12 i We would like to have a Senator swear those witn@$ses 13 and then obviously any Senator who would like to attend is... | 1A invited. . | : 16 f ede ag | _ | 19 | ~ od a7, | uo a4 | . | . as | ; - os I Wp ™ ae, |. : : i: | TOP SECRET | j oo WAND & TAUL | BW 50955 Bocld:32423509 Page 66—
sperhy 4 HW 50955 a oy eA 9 5. Ga + Docld: oan | Pit | | | { | | | 32423509: Page 67 | re. er oe 53 Senator Huddleston. My thinking now is that we would i meet probably at 10: 700, Mr. Bader. We could cartainly do it in.an hour's time. - Senator Huddleston. I would like to attend that session. ., Mr; Bader. So we'll start at 9:00 promptly: Senator Huddleston. Senator Mathias had the sugqestion that in view of the fact that there is spacific legislation | relating to that subject and that's in the Immigration Act <= Mr; Bader. I've asked them to be prepared to sndak to {| their interpretation of the provisions and restrictions dr Immigration Act. Senator Huddleston. Sut-our recommendation is that we would review-the act and the practices. | | | | i . 1 Mr; Bader. If we have this room, as I hone we do, we | | would take the testimony riaht here and if need be, move it. y:./:. to another room, Senator Mathias. In the event that I should not ba - able. to he here, and I hone IT will, IT think we ought to look | at ‘this thina pretty closely. As Senator Hnddleston said earlier, you- don’t reeruit | these people just out of the blue unless there's some reason | | for them to sign up, and T don’t think we vant to he too | critical of recrultind praccdures: ta revert to thea ohrase that we used vastorday, teen nee consenting adults. a | Toe SECRET ee a PAU . . , |
eah G4 | | gue Sek ea | 64. Top SECRET WAR & PAUL | 1 ; I think what we havea ka Look. at is the deqree of coercio 2 | which ig. implied here, the kind of bind that. you get these * people in where they really are perhans. totally alienated from A, | sterever they came from. and what) sort of a crack do you put | 5 : them in and that not only goes to the humanitarian aspect of it. a yj) Pat to questions over liability and the rest. 7 | Senator Huddleston. TI think they could be very hepéul | 8 | to us. i) i | Mr. Bader. Senator. [— could also try to adjust the time t | Senator Mathias. It could he Kefore or after our afternoon | af meeting, if that would be more in your reach. . an a ae 1D | | Senator Mathias. ell, I haven't gotten my walking mal 12 ! for the morning y2t. | 7 — 7 ae CoG . 1 Mr. Inderfurth. It's interesting in this xespect to th 5 about hee llarvey Oswald; about his ‘being over there, and. watre | 16 | talking about immigrants coming here and defectors and so on,- oe 9 | Senator Mathias: It's the other side of the coin. ep ta senator Huddleston. There's a question of how nany toor4 va | we ought to close. | a9 . : Senator Mathias. Mr. Chairman, I regret to raise a | 21 | turther complication. There's a meeting that I had for 6109" | 29 | that's now heen postponed to 6:39, Se it would prohably mean - |. oz || £ can't ast here until 7:34, | DA | Senator Huiileston. Navhe 7:30 sould bea penne elma: | on |x Aoatt know. These pearls need ta get out and qek sore fresh | | HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 66
Om on |) Th might ac fast in the Full Committee. I. have no wav of “HW 450955 Docld: 32423509 Page 69 | | aos “AS he BE Be air too, 1 would expect. Before we get into the substance here, I understand that our new mandate is if possible to complete ours no. later than Friday. So we're going ko try to shoot for tomorrow. _ What the Chaizman would like to do would he for us to have our report in some kind of form that we can give to the _ Pull Committee by Friday so that they can review it over the weekend and the Full Committee can start on it on Monday. Now how do you think von would stand.on that proposition i Mr. Rader. This is the principle findings; conclusions and recommendations? Senator Huddlesten. Yas; which would mean that wh pever | . ; . . changes we are making here in vhraseologv and go forth. should | * be incorporated and retypad. | We have that problem.. “. Mr. Aaron. I would think that that's do-able. I mean...) it remains to be seen how extensively you would want to Aehate some issues and the axtent to which you will simply want|> to bracket. them or identifv them and have the orincinal discussion take place in the Full Committee. - “Fit T would think that that's feasibls. Senator Huddleston... Ta delay it past Fridav, of course, would delav the time that the Foil Cemmittes could consider it heratse they need te have itin their hands at leastocne day. TOP SECRET VARO & PAUL
C5 RAT EO 56 knowing. Mr. Kirbow. Bill. hecause you and I both know Senator . | athias's previous intentions stated in. the letter to. the” Chairman, was there somewhere a siscussion about releasing | this piecemeal ahead of time that might. that should co on the | record here? Mr. Miller. If it's aqreeable to the Subcommittee to | gTet Lt dona by the weekend. hea nroposes that they take up | | “in Full committee the findines and recommendations of the _ rete cnet ee wt te eat tert erp foreian groun. wy 7 The domestic group ig much further hehind, so they fe cern would not take it up until ahoirt the ath. an 13 | The question of whether, to release any tnformation or \ | pel or that when they get the renort, ‘Now where are we then on the report part? Mr; Aaron. We hava, ve're in an axtensiva program of trying Eo cat the Agency's views as to what information is sources and methods and what is classified for other reasons . Senator Huddleston, We'll let the Full Committee decide : and what have vou. i . . | 29 We have, I believe. all but four papers have been read’ og | by the Agency in one form or. another and ara in the process a 8d of going. out there. phe fotir that are hot are the Pongresistor on | aversioht and the CIA budqet manner, although the hbuddast section, | | ; TOP SECRET ae | . , . ; WARE ™ TAUL fe HW 50955 Docld:32423509. Page 70
LL LOr | ie, comty ot i of the defense report, whish is the substance of that has been. ‘discussed at great length with the Defense Departient and they fi ! f | ! | are happy with it except -- well, happy. with it may: be an | | | 4 exagaeration but they have no problems with it except for the os numbers and the Committee itself will have to steo up to the 6 | ‘auesticn of whether the targe number or any subsets of numbers 7 | will be released: 8 | rhe internal oversid't. the Office of General Counsel 3 | and Inspector ceneral has not heen. | Ts that right? Me Maxwell. what's right. No material that was s ed 12 il there. was derived from classified material. ao 13 Me. Aaron. So that showldn' t he a problem. ‘The aqeneral papers on covert action and espionage hava not been — aiven to them. They are just being completed by the staff an be on 17 | one has not been shared with them, ‘Now beyond that all the others, I believe, have now | \ 16 |. essentially. All the others, and the chemical and biological - 18 1a | gone out ‘to the Agency in one form or another. The only one RO | that seems to be approved, or at least we've gotten thea Jo- | ahead on. is the Department of | state: -s paper and the pepartment : =| requested one deletion, which we are prenared to make. 23 | Serator Huddleston. All right, then. As I understand 2a | Lt. the Chairman. if we are able to get ours to him so the: ' O85 | “Full Comittee can hecin on findings: and recommendations on | | TOP § | BRERET HW 450955 DocId: 32423509. Page Ti
HW 50955 “axecutive raview. a. os PET Ne AO Monday or Tuesday, even. his hope is tha€ during the course of: the next week the. Full Conmittee will’ finish that. In the meantime, of course, we can still be working’ on’ these reports looking toward. hopefully, if we could have those by the end of next week, too, then the Full Committee would be in a position of at least having the material available to’. | them if we decided to release everything at one time or if we needed a few more davs to refine the reports themselves. That's about as much as we can hope for. Mr, Aaron. Okay. T think that to he realistic about the longer material, it is a ‘Jet lonaer and I think to be at proud of the material we vill want to be sure that 16 done through it. | | | | So therefore t think the ena of next week is probably | not realistic of having it in share for the Full Committee to bless it. . | 7 : on the other hand, I think that before the end of the month it would be possible to have a product, unless we run into some enormous snat. Senator Mathias. But that does not contemplate the review, Mr, Miller put it dees not contemplate printing. Mr. RNaron. “TAP moyract, ° SECRET VAD & FPRUL BDocld: 32423509 Page 72 Mr. Aaron. No, T'n sorry. that is including executive ~ | | | | | | ’
eres ty HW 50955 AXo 8 cottage A - 69 Mr. diGenova. Yerkarday. Mr, Bolton indicated to me when I was there that.there was no way that they could complete ‘sources and methods review by the 15th of March, and I said T didn't see how they could either, since they had just really bequn. having access a week or (80 ago or whatever it was. And they seem to think that the end of the month is probably, considering the rewrites: and a chance to Look at the rewrites-- Senator Mathias. T have been indevendently advised of . antimistic: Mr. Miller. Senator Church just talked to Directodppish any and I talked to Mitch Reqovin just prior and worked out awe arrancement on the question of clearances of sensitive material and the chairman told Mr. Bush that he will take whatever time is required. he asked for exveditious effort on their mart, ‘My. Bush said that he would urda his troops onward, and he recognized that there had heen snags and difficulties. the Chairman said that he was net going to press bevond the | capability of either side. He wants to do the prover job and whatever time is required, a a He said that he honed that we could coonerate ard work _ it out so that we could finish by the and of the: month. And | Mee | Bush said that he would make everv effort to do that, S9 that seeris amicahin hetween the Chairman and the Director. ‘TOP SECRE t WARD & TAUL the same thing, that the end of the month is mavhe a little | fo ; | | | | | | | | | i Docld: 32493509 Fage 73
oth PD gos” gma tem y | 0 | Then the question arnsa about the deadline on tha 15th © | and the-Chairman is going to ask that this deadline be set... 3 aside because of the problems of not. being able to finish: - A security and those other matters. | | 5 So he is taking steps to do that now. 7 | “Senator Huddleston. Rut I think it's still encumbent ». oy | an us to make a special effort to move. as fast as we.can, and’ °|" a we plan to to ahead tonidqht. 9 ; Okay, now we get back, 1.0 | Mr. naron. We're on page 37 and the procedure we're =~ lil trvind to follow to expedite things ia to look particularae ak the recommendations and at khe bracketed language. Now racommendation 29 --- Senator Huddleston. Pefore we aet to 20, there's a a re ert ee en he etn engene—wetveneenere—ereneen 9 Committee also found that. there's no astablished inter~Agency. | oS mechanisms for astahlishing the hona fides of defectors. --> | | ' Ls prohlem in wording. “The last paragraph before 20, the | fo | You've used established | twice there. | a . . ee, | Mr. Aaron. TI think we can take the first one out. fe an . Msi Culbreth. fe might say, David, that the staff hopes ta take a teal editorial: shot at this before it aets published, | : | Se TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL | i 21! op | anoway and maybe ever before it gets to overvbody next week, Dz | and wa wonta hane that we can get a lot of these thinde, I a _ 24 ! Rut certsirty. any thak vou see that vou want as to | : ; . | eae f he sure that we art to. point out. 7 i HWW DOSS Docld: 32423509 Page 74
anh 73 i 7 — 71 po Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, on that marticular thing, at 2 | the staff level I had bracketed that entire paragraph hecause 35 || I'm not sure what we're trvina to accomplish by what you say 4 | there. This is probably the most difficult task that faces a counter-intelligence organization any place in the world is to establish whether or not a defector. that you have just picked up is a double agent or not. I iistened to the man who has done this all his adult to) 1ife at the Agency, Mr. Angleton, and he never made it clear just how you ever are sure that you have a hona fide, And then his follow-on said basically the same things) What do we intend.to do with this finding? Do we intend then: | | | | 2 | | | : | | | 14. to leqislate something? What are we qoing to do with it? | Mr. Aaron. The finding goes to the recommendation later that there be essentially for other purposes. But a stubcommittee of the National Security Council on the subject | of counter-intelligence which. would look at other matters ‘and ; |, we will- ‘get to that in a momant. but among its tasks is that | tt would be a forum in which ‘differences of opinion as to the bonafides of a defector could be discussed and potentially | raconciled. | 7 : | | Mr. Angleton testified and snoke at lenath in other Forums with us abot the fack that when -- that at nrecant thers as |; really is no way that there's a difference between the BI. and | (TOP SECRET MAD & PAUL Hi. 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 75 a nn er ne ee erence ene seen ntact, sineeyrmanenene
CTA as to the hona fides cf a defector and there's no way for AQ the government to come to a decision about it. And this really makes that point and leads to the furthe Jf no point that we believe thare ought to be some mechanism whereby on “some decision can be reached. Now people may still have. reservations, as they do about this particular individual we refer to here. But in the end one has to make a decision and Simolv keening him in a jail some place is orohablv not a useful way, to proceed, and in fact, this is the kind of racommendation that comes from Mr. Angleton and seems to be supvorted by other neople. even his successor at the Agen Mr. Kirbow. Do we. have anv place in our findings 14 | Is there some evidence? | | 18 Mr. Aaron. Yes. | , 16 | Mr. Kirbow. It's going to be in the report when somebod 7 i | else reads this? They 11 be able to go some place else and_ ae a gde what vou're talking about? | . - . 19 \ Me: Aaron. ‘That's correct. It will be in, | I helteve it's: o. in the paper on counter--intelliaence. It's. also addressed aw) mal n thé Pockefeller Commission renert. e Now as the first recommandation. I think that we have. DQ &3 Acread at the staff level: to taka out the brackets and cut a A ON footnate which would make tk clear that whtle the nrimarv 5 mission of the CIA woult hea to callect denied or rrotected foreign FOP SECRET WARD & FAUL ] | | see the so-called. this single case of some sort here? | i | | | HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 76.
wh i PN BPS eR Oe a i | | | op intertigence information. that this would nok, vou know. that 2 "* the same time the Agency could be directed to perform such: “4 | other collection tasks as directed by the NSC. | i a. | In other words, the noint is that certainly they do 5 | some overt collection. For example, foreian broadcast informatl 6 | service is done by them as a service and so forth. But at. the. °? | sane time the point of aiving the CIA a-charter’is to give” ie | 8. | a charter for its primary mission and as set forth NSCID 5 | 2 | for examnle, that mission is to conduct esnionaqde. rot Senator Mathias. Whak ahout the role of statistical " analysis? That kind of analveis that ean be deduced ftom By Le | study of voluminous quantity of scononic information much @ 13 : oF which is public? | | 14 yy. | I'll qo back to the ball hearings. the ball bearing L5 factory. | | 16 Mr. Aaron. Well, this qees to the point, really of... a 44 | tha organization of this geac ‘ton. There's a separate. section. |” 18 | on the broduetion of int allicence which would authoriia the: Lg | TA to produce national intelligence. what kind of thing. 20 Central Intellidaence Agancy as the producer of national aE yO] tntaliigence must be tha recinient of all intelligence flowing: ee ey | Into our overall national intelligence effort, and that oof om | intellicence ineindes orray hk intelligence as collected from a m the Trepaury Renartnen® | irem Commerce from Labor attaches i. B85 | abroad, the full scone of information ceollacting, most of which! ! TOP SECRET | WHO A PAUL of HW 50955 Docld:32493509 Page 77
Q HW50955 Docld:32423509 Page 78 | ‘arid that, while it was once in the State Department, was - ' 4a not secret or clandestina and is’available to the CTIA and it would be their job to comrile it. And that does not exclude other functions. For example, the analytical function ia not mentioned here. This is simply to tive it the collection function and that is because the paper is simply organized in that fashion. It doesn't try tO. step up to the whole charter, every aspect of it. We just try. to hreak it clown. Mr., Maxwell. Should there be a kind of overt foreign intelligence which the NSC with the mechanism for allocating priorities within the intelligence community | should We~ -. done by the CIA? etna core it EAN ee we : s It could under the formulation now do that. Mr. Aaron. That's why for examole there's one thing that they do that's overt. Even their clandestine people abroad | do an overt collection job and that is biographic information | transferred to the CIA because they have a lot of clandestine biographic information and as a matter of centralizing and ¥ Ve dfficiency the decision was made to move it over there. ae That kind of thing would not be precluded and would stil exist. Now it qoes on to state that in doing this we would also recommend authorizing the CIN to carry out the recruitment of aqents within the Unite:l States for this purpose. And it goes TO® SECRET WAT % FAME -
cay HW 450955 tat an ky Docld:32423509 Page 79 General to ensure that these domestic espionage-related actions von were to establish a hase in Florida for the purvoges of un AO RA further to say that there sould he an annual review of this activity by the Senate oversight committee and by the counter-intelligence committee which we proposed be established and has been. agreed here as a recommendation of the National Sacurity Council. Now the further sentence that is in brackets calls upon 7 “the Attorney General to certify to the President and to | the oversight committee that these actions are being tsken in a manner that does not violate the Constitutional rights of American citizens or anv other provision of law. Trving to keep track of the domestic intelligence. ® recommendations is a little hit like painting a moving tr n, but this tends to coincide with their recommendation, and the nurpose of this is obviously to place a little tiyhter restriction and more authority in the hands of the Attorney — that are conducted on a covert or clandestine basis aré in. fact not infringing on Constitutional rights or attempting to braak the law in any way. Mr. Kirbow. You're really talking about recruitments ee nov. You're not talkina ahout other clandestine and covert activities and operations? Mr, Aaron. Thatis correct; It's not, for example, if harassing Cuban shipnira, That would not. come up here. TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL | |
resthy fF is) 43 HW 50955 DocId: 32423509. Page ao | “istice, which is where he gets the staff, the concern ‘of ene |" Mk eda @ 8 oo Ho Mr. Kirbow. And tha bracketed information, Mr. Chairman, was that I didn't feel at the time we considered this and I asked that it be bracketed, that the Attorney General who is.) never going to operate in this area alone, he is not going. to make these decisions without staff support of some deseripti n, and if he's going to do that with people in the Department of. people in the Agency about broadening even within their own agency those people that know about the agent procurements and where they are and whom they are is of vital concern. It's .. probably one of the most carefully guarded secrets. Even: .Z the a extent that. Mr. Colby testiried befors. this Committee linda bacause someone may want to decide some. day to wrassie it i 1 oath. he said, I don't want ‘to know the names of the agents” | jut of ‘me. “| ie I don! t know what the Attorney General: certifying | here we) does for you if. on tha: ‘sane subcommittee you have the ner, i who is the President's principal man, you have ne ectetavad of state and all these other beople apparently at the beck and eall in intelligence inatberd to put the Attorney General and = his staff into the agent. orocurement business. Senator Hart. Not in the agent procurement business... Mr. Kirbow. I mean with knowledge of agenk. precurement.| Senator Hart. Well, the Attorney GCeaneral is in the husiness of unhbolding and Aafending the laws of this country TOP SECRET WAHT & PAUL
WW 50955 19 20 al. | | | A 0 SBP hs HER 7 and he can't do that if hs doesn't know when one of the agen¢ies -of the Federal government night be breaking them. | | | Constitutional obligations. FOP SECRET , | | | | ‘It's a chicken and eqg situation. Mr. Kirbow. You think he should approve the policies or the actual procurement of the aqent. “Senator Hart. The procedures. Nothing in here, I mean wea have araued this ‘thing for 13 months, there's nothing here that requires the Adenev to — over names of thelr sources or anything like that. The Attorney General doesn't need to know the names | even more than Bill Colby does. or less. Just to find out: oe the procedures of violating the laws of this country, chats all. | Me. Culbreth. Could I raise another point, Mr, Chairman? it seems to me that -one of the concerns that you have . with having the Attorney Ceneral certify in this specific. case to the President and also to the oversight: committee! isa consistent problem that tT - think runs throughout our ra commendations. eve mente. Qn the one hand, we are deseribina for accountability within the Fxecutive Branch of the prober people. and cn the other hand we are afraid that if we make him accountable, we're giving him so much nower that thav are going to disreadard the | | WART A TAUL ‘Bocld: 32423509 Page 61
wr wl Hood. cs onde Fhe yg bad Be 3 ob In this specific situation, for axample. we've already ‘tot the Attorney General heing involved with the oversight responsibilities. When he takes office he already has the. obligation to see that all the laws and activities of agencies are carried out as they're suoposed to be. And in addition to that, we are provosing in another. part of our recommendations that the general counsel and the insvector general of the CIA be subject to Senate confirmation so that there ara Jots of other kinds of chacks, and I would just hope that as the Genators consider additionai procosals like this. that we donit-aet to the point that the consredg: is hamstringing them inside the agencies on how they catrys. ont the resnonsibilities: | Each one Of these standina bv itself may look like, - wells this is a good idea ‘and we should have this additional certification or. this addition chain of reporting and making sure vou cet it authorized, o. But T have a fear after having looked through: a Wood bit of this, that we are getting too many layers in there, and I ¢would just urge a caution LF there: are situations where we mavha-Have it pretty well covered until we jek some opnortunity ¢ to see how this new set-un is aoing to work, whether we're coing to have the kind of Abuses wa had before: Mavhe we-don't |. need each of thear details of Congress aoing down into the acencies and saving hee Fhe: an about their day te day business. TO? SECRET | WARD & PAULL HW 50955) DoctTd: 32423509 Page 82 ! I. cern oe cee etna senescent
| H | 7 : Oo . a 1 : Mr. diGenova. Mr. Chairman, I. would add-in that regard t : ‘ e that with. cegard to the enacitic recommendation, this is o not going down into the Asencv. This is talking about the — 4 4 Attorney General who ia the head of an agency, First of all, 5 | andthe history has shown that other Attorneys General who Look the same oath that this man did didn't do their jobs and | one of the reasons was that they didn't know about certain thines. And, the nurpose of this provision is to make them aware of what is coing on, to make lecal. judgenents and to advise the President. about the leaality of procedures attending go teernitment of agents and other activities within the confines of the united States | whe vrovision for confirming the inspector cenaral and general counsel is a wholly unrelated thina to this. although | 15 16 | it doesn't ao to the problem of reaching down into the agency. it TI don't see how that does that because he's going to | 198 | be dealing with the DCI. | 10 | Senator Huddleston, Contrary to many of the things. that = we Ao. we provide wavs to corract abuses once they've happened oy and it7éeems to me this is a nrincinal wav of trving by avold — | abuses to start with. S| Tf T were on the oversiaht committee I would nortainiy, o, | and LE were | cqebhing thea information that we contennlate ne | committee wed td get, than that is ve would know about rhese thinys 5 | | TOP SECRET HW 350955 Docld:327423509 Page 683
Ct td a ye OK He - now whether or not the chief q 't would certainly want to law enforcement officer cf the country thought they were legal or illegal, or if thera was a question anout it. Senator Mathias. T have a real question if TI were 5 “Attorney General whether L would sign what we would call for here. | | | Senator Huddleston. The certification bothers me “a. little bit. Senator Mathias. How could I as Attorney General say | { | 10 | that I certify that all tha actions in thie area do not violate Constitutional rights of American citizens or anv other pigvisicn n 4 | | Vi | - 2. 12 of law? e | . Tay are, | T have worked in a state law denartment and had to 14.1) sian some certifications much simpler than this. and t agonized | (5 | over them. And this is so far beyond the personal knowledge 16 || of the Attorney General for nim to make anv kind of certificatidn, yy || T think we should get hin involved but 1 question whether it ol | , ' 18 should be 3 certifying. 19 | | Senator fuddleston. What's tha sten just under man) 20 | cartifvina? | . 7 | |. oy ~Tfe could ceview. He cotild certainly taisa a red Flag: oo 9D His oath would require that he do something. og f | Senator Mathias: If van force him to cartify, = think a m4 | vou re coina to ge": siich.a wishy-washy thing that te his | ; 28 knowledde and he. was ne® advigad *y the contrary and stuff Lire | TOP SECRET a7 | WARD A PAUL HW 350955 Docld:327423509 Page 84
erepiy 7 : oR SRORBT lou that. Mr. Aaron. I thin that's a fair point. the question, a I quess, the case at which the certification would run ‘most: wou d add to what already isin the sentence. preceeding it wnieken!: 4 o is review. by the Committee which the Attorney General is: 6 | to chair, would be the casc in which ‘the Attorney General. is | | aware of a particular activitv, is aware that it is illegal | bot duet doasn't do anything. about it on the theory that it : | is somebody alse's husiness. And he doesn! t really, he doesn't | 10 have an obligation in this cateaoryv of matters to render a | | | | | 11 || a indgment and brina it to the attention of the president 8 com the Conaress. 12 Senator Mathias. why don't we say this. that the Attorney General be reauired to advisa the Presidant and the oversight committee that he is familiar with the procedures. aware of anv violation of the Constitution or other: law in the execution of the action... IT think vou can lav that kind of a burden on the Attorné: General Mr, Aaron. Would it he vcogsible to just make it sort. - of a reporting funetion in which he said; and this is in the — same Ajirection, “the Attorney General will he required to. | | ‘16 established ko. accomplish this purpose and that he is “not: | arivige the Dresident and the oversight committee tf he finds | oa || that these options are heind taken in a manner that violates? Top SECRET WARD & PAUL a Sean _ — . . o rs Hos whee n . . he Lowe ote . . . tee . ‘NW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 85.
Q HW 50955 Docld:327423509 Page 06 SOW eH | nz: Senator Huddlesten. ‘Yes. First he must review them. _ Mr. Aaron. And if he finds a violation, avidence of violation, then he must renort to the President and the oversight committee. Just place the responsibility there. Senator Huddleston. If in his ovinion. Mr. Maxwell. I have one other point on that paragraph _ and that is it vrovides for annual review by the counter- intelligence committee of the National Security Council. I had understood we were dealina with the recruitment - oF agents for the United States foreian Intelligence purposes, and the question is whether the counter intelligence committee which was ta focus on resoliring issues involving the bona fides of defactors, issues between the FBI and CIA, would be the body which would have the anpropriate knowledae in the positive intelligence value, or whether it should be assigned | to a counter-intelligence function. | It's simply a question of where the responsihi lity should he allocated for reviewing those within tha National Security Council structurs, and t wasn't clear whether the — ‘counter-intelligence committee was the appropriate one. Mr. Aaron. Well, on that point, the purpose of setting up the counter-intelligence committee is essentixlly to look at the domestic imnact of our intelligence activities, tha primary ones being in the counter: intelligence Field bukt also ‘TOP SECRET NARO R PAUL Senator Mathias: I wouldn't have any trouble with that.
a ° 2 * . 8 ' 8 dy the vositive intelltiecouce Tield. i ‘ ; oa In fact, the resnotution of the hona fides problen is a wuch smaller aspect of thoss two problems Sut the existence 1 i of the committee with seme kuevledge of the problem of. en) . { | the National Security Council leval to address it. 7 Mr. Kirbow. What abuse that has bean broudht un in the 6 rast either in the mress or accusaktions abant A ounmmittee is OF this aimed ak? counter-intelligence makes tt pmesible to have a Forum at | | j i i) Yas there heen ahuses that we have documented or | ' yreapnrtad that indicate that this has violated ‘the Constitutional riches of anvbedyv. ineludint thease forataners for this nirnose? We met he aimina this ak some thine other than just bind of oulling it out of Ris air? Mr. Aaron. I- think. it really comes more in the cateJOry of auesstionable practices and Towish I had the domestic fellow here but it's realty > imeastion ne, for axample. when’ voutre in the nrocess cf teeing ho recruit foreian assets ar aven Americans ta ner Fora Forsiqn inte Ltiaence missions where srou may headin nol teck ina information ny Awerkeans for the | moirnases of assessina whether they are heloful to vou in aneroachinge the partientac vereen or dhether the vould ba. i opau a ried TANT apap! pe otthveybbpery crengy prt cpbet mands k EPC, athar i . og f binds of eurvyeillanes: bios omepe Of a gafennard. fo think. TOP RBSCRET an bets 8 FAIR, HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 87
HW 450955 % 2Q 2] ey hoa some enormous abuse. ao. . tg DRL : _t Cf fontt think we're real! secensarily closing the harn deor Mr. ‘Kirhow, I had naver heard of one in that area. Mr. Aaron. I think by and larae the PRD's quite clear. in other words, when we wenk through the CHAOS and some of these.cther programs that vere auestionable, there were some ‘casas in which some of the rerorting that took place as a resul oF the Foredan resoureas dtsision aot inte the CHAOS nok, Aut fhe Foretan resources distaton nanaaed to stay clear of in qeneral and resisted in fact the effark on the nart. of the PHANG team to ao ont and antigely recruit in this area on, a elandastine hasis. ; : Thies is really sork of more in the catedory of A. ‘insucindg that that doesn'h tate place and Bo giving them help thak they can sav no, diving them a place to go if pressures. Senator Huddleston. “ell. there aré several places in ant renort findinas. several cages indicated in the testimony wa'ye taken that the Attorney Ceneral anaht to review and ‘ | { i. | i | H i | euch as the Huston Plan tyne cressures are brought to bear, 7 ! i i recommend. | rh And Thin wondering shether ar nek rather than juck spotti iG © i lt at. these various niaces. whether we couldn't make a aeneral re evempeandation, Watyea already ak the Athornev Tanersi oon tha & whatever nrockices; Bre sane fandoaqe wa were Gusto ofedtindg abe TOP SEER a T . . ‘ Capmithes and that he resto Po nab allo mractiogs Foub st Least | 4 \ af | | yer: sore mn PAUL ' i Docld:32423509 Page 88 er .
: ne a8, #82 Y . oa i q aE rs ome 5 | i . | . a . . ' 8 Far this naraaraph, that be review and that he advige the ° | President and the committ-s if in his oninion any of these 5 | niactices violate the Coistihutional rights of American citizeng . a j ar anv other laws. 5 | Me. Kirbow. «To wotlld feel much better about this since | oe it hasr't been an apparent ahbuss but to see that go in the of 7? seneral recommendation that all of the activities of the 1 a intelliqancee community he, vo uteued by him or ba’ cvaminead in 7 , | ae . a) | wbatevar wav von think ib should he done far that curnose. | 1a But it would seem that th quts then ta a caneral preventive f . , |: iy | tema mechanism instead of keting here ‘sind of put in asainst the oa a : . oe go q Fer which as we say arnarcentis has bean doing ik nronerly rics | Al’ Alona and.not in violatinrn of the. law. | 1 H 4 We den't appear to he accusing them of it ‘ere. although | a oo os | ‘| the lanquas® may not hea ontho to specific. | | ‘Mr. Aaron, I miqht inst sav that there is a further ca recommendation that involves the Attorney General on nage 40, | ey | } | | oad | ve | which is numher 27 dealing with the sama committea, a Altferent} jo ji. asmeck of it. | LO] | ! an | Nhat this does is tt elahorates with the racommendation | a So 7 2 | | numhear TF. which eskahlishes the counter intelligence committees | So oo | ane | and it deals with the tye cides of theese activities. On the | . an | nan hand itis aning to reviey mrearam for coarikica forcs.gn | a4 | Tntoliteencea tollesattog > cleote thine withtn the tnited State: | nl aa , ve endian the ather hand ft oueins 9 revter the counter syteili tne on ne . - «FOP SECRET | «FOP SECRE ! . { ; : WD mn PAUL , | HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 89 :
Qo ay nie he 8 : oy oT semerpame of the CIN and oor that era condouekead ineide the inited States both from bhe standroint of their legality. — it | | Now I think it's seacibtle to consolicatea those recommend ' oh tions so that we don't sav ik twice, and T also think it's nassihle to take out anv imetie tion that these nroqrams were i A nok neces sarily conducted ororeriv in the vast.” . at Put tT would hate to sort of quest have, and my rersonal a, feeling is that To would hate obo have eo denercl kind of thing 2 bhae the rtrornev Ganerelo eneht to de this becauns he ought reanmnendations that are morn snrecifically taraa@ted on the. | | | | | | | | te do thia already. (And what we're trvine to de is make some i { | suhinat matter that we have reviewead ond civea him. in effect, | | “ys | oeneatifia charca, La Senator Inddtes fon. Meld, we are civing Pum the 6 ancoaLfic charde of revitesina dt; which anrarentiv he didn't wx have hefore. Now before «when Something cane to his attention ha rartainiv had the resrans ibibity te move on it if in his 1a oeninten it vas contrary to Constitutional ridchts. 1a | J. Mr. Aaron. So © see voutrea discussing the Lask sentence! Mr. Kirhow. He ordohelutise assumes. as the acmnon law r 80 still, t@ that riqhk. nek the review noink?- oo dacs, that all covernment officials in an official rosition are nerforming their duties rronearjy. 5 Genabars Ted Lester, foo wank be ga beyand that. cEhoudh, | | HW 50955- Docld:32423509 Page 90 Meoomph hire to oknesr whet thee Pye Coun. TOP, aR CRET OR FTL | | | errr eee we ee te A 6 EERE + Oe eR ERE eR Rese te Ree te ALND ARS Oe nt RUE mer TOL BER Ft RCA NG renee of een
Mr. Virhow. Andros rn ver vay be shenld revlew tk in 4 . | 24 tind of a general recommendation, then you talk about all of the laws of the United’ States. * | the intelligence functiors havina any possibility of affecting - ‘ I really would like to see that kind of requirement | - . 6 |e staged on the Attorney Cancral ws a qeneral requirement instead ° | of trving to just pick ok tittle specifics unless we have an Ro abuse canneanted with ik. . . { 2 |  oMAe in the domastic tech. ferce they hava snecific us Noy in the de ' | | vo |) abuses and thev maka snecifte recemmendations of corrective action. ‘hut that doesn't arnear to be the case in either of | these here, either the true covert onetrations | . . . ee . 7 Me, Aaron. ~f£ miahtoucvkea a suaqresktion alonsa. those lines yuet in terms of simplifvingd some of kEhis. [Tt miaht hea possiblp. uo" - ~ : . . \ . * : \ | | | ‘ . ' : . : , . . . | pot take. the: ‘first vart of the review section here, follow it | with the recommendation en the top of 27 saving the domestic i vt this review and then Follow thak-with a ‘third rec commendation ~ i i i | { counter intelliaence activities of t he CIA would be subject aa t President and the oversiaht committee Lf he found any irregular! ities in aither cne of thare mrodrams . e { 1] that. the. Attorney General would he retnizred ko advise the aie it. dees what vou want to dn whieh is ha force the Attorney Ceperal! a athention tet Mr. Baran, ALT riebt tiethe we turn far oa meonent to TOP SECRET ‘VARI 2% PAUL { | AO 2 . - Senator Mathias. ! think that's more reasonable and . | | | | | | ' | | . HW 50955 Docld:32423509 . Page 91
pecs 3 An al i ’ i | il if i |! | i 2 | Li i] yi 1 ra lt | LA | - | { i TA | a |l ra | wall iy ey | 8 | | - ey Uh | may | HWW50955 Docld:32423509. Page 92 | the net affect of this raradranh, WAR ose oe pe 4 : 28 cansiderably do away with. samher 27 because ‘Lt hac = bracketed rortion that we wiht — | That's page 40. The bracketed portion save that the NSC would anprove | all counter-intelligence activities of the CIA in the United States and it spells out a hind of procedure there. Now the net affect of this kind ef procedure really is to establish. that the PRE Gs without cnestior, Tonean the rragtical offact is that the At is withouk question the | | eannter-intelliqence agency and vou'lve tok to get the President * to anvrove anvthing that the CIA is anina to do in this Field, Ancl that is really ib inside che United States. That‘s Now my own personal view of this naragraph is that it's probably nok necessary. “te have the NSC committee. ort is annposed to resolve the question of where the FBI Lets off ard the CLIN heains and it is an nse committe that can report Lo the Preaident if thev haya a disaareement. t'm nok sure ~T fer! mtrondlv ahonut tt. ovr. ditenava. Towed anly add that T.suoke to John BLIGEF abouk this naracranh snd he also feels that it's ot unnecessary te do this. '> thinks thatcthis consolidation wotld he had. first mf all. oantott's unneenesary secand Myr hitler Rah reap ie aebane? | TOP SECRET er PA,
HW 50955 By any Lf) en ‘ 21 -intellicqence collactinn Docld: 32423509 Mr. diGenova. Arey bore talkina ahaout the cootastnh i Mr. Aaron. No, yetre ‘dng. about the paragranh that dust precedes it. I'm serry. this is the bracketed portion... 1. read ‘it out. “Phe CIA should receive NEC approval of all counter- intellijyence activities within: the United States. should be aiven bv the President and be supnorted by. the recommenda tion oF the NSC counkter-intellidnenes comnitteas, Attorney leneral and tha Sirector of the TRE. ALL suen nrolects: should be renorted wunnually to the oversight committee Mr. Maxwell. I oweuld move that we just strike that MMNeEeCcCsssarv. Senator Muddleston. ‘That's a vote. Welll be right (A brief recess vas talen) ¢ Senator Huddleston. “ell, it's 3°39. Let's see if we aan resolve anvthing, Mr. ‘Aaron. New tha pent xacommandation. which is number aqoes to the estahlishmenk of a gnecial camnittee of the Foreian Intellicenca. whieh would ravdiew buman Committesa on probliams. This is an area whovs there has been some effort A to bry ‘ins citubieradty ta det a handle ‘hut dk te an otk ententialie split shout es widely tn the aovernment as veu Peparkmenk thab preter c «af Teast CRET me PA haye a whake TOP 3 ean doa th. Yow Page 93. this approva: cco ee ce ee Se a RE EO cn nme ON nee tng eae ee She woes cme
most of that information. 2 larae proportion of that is keved to their report an' yet obviously a qraat deal of clandestine collection is carried out by the CIA itself and tha military gervices account Far a siqnificant amount. of collection, some of which ig extremely important in countries with military dqovernments. ‘ i a te Wa , i i ' § Gn valume the most materist and sacordinda to CIA analysts The issue then hecomes whether thera shouldn't bea a i narticnulac mechanism to deal eith it and the provosal here is : % . . i snecial committee of thea crr. And the reason for that is to Pg | | | ol) te ereate a subcommittes of Fhe CFL fer that purrose, or a . ; 1 i] 1 | nit in the chair the Nenartwant of Stoete or the Secretary of State's desianee and renresontabives of tha Secretary of State and.it would e a committes essentially of the ClA. the Department ; | ; 66 1 oF State and. the Nenartmant of Defense trying to brind some went a ee focus into those proarams and making some choices and so forth. L miaht have Bill Rader somak to it. <= think the. | | renammendation eriginates with him. . | 19 4} Mr. Rader. This recormondaticn is shart of twa basic | pecommeridations that deal with the ovesticn of human intelligente | collection. t : | First is the question of the arnroval mechanism. As you/1- a", | gee when ve cet into the lather mark of bhe nancy. one of eae theaa very strand reccmpecndatieng thar we haya ua the committe, ony da heing offered te tha committee as a neesibta recommenda’) on TOP SECRET | ' | HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 94.
cet, 4a 4 an, a atl tg ge 4 . , Ve ie that human collection wueiectea would ae to the aperstions eter ween advisorv group for appres!). that is. for operational approval. As vou know from cur testimony these hinds of projects ‘deal with covert action protects, t t | a Ag nat qo to the 40 Committee tyre orcanizations where they | . | a | | So on the one hand -:e're honing to-deal with the questio | of onerational approval. In this narticular subcommittee we QR aa to the ovestion nf overall manadement and Virection of taskinag, what should we he dginag. what should the United States wy he doing in the human collection field? Where shanld we be iq | in « number of years? What should the rrincipal objectives ' if th af human collection he? And in this wav wa hene to bring the diversitv that now | exists in fhe community from the CIA to the militory cervices and bring it together under the chairmanshin of tha Becretary and manacement quidance. Tt is not an-cimportant elshoration of the committee on Foreian intelligence. It should be there in any avank because the Secretary of State the cehairmanshin of. a commitkes and T ata ie manacdement otohlen.— “his aives it Focus, this cives | think nromerly so. that-devwls with this larder nroblem of I whither honan intelliatncs ooflection. Gs tie Maxwell. thle npetenry here whether thts chaire i i } | os State who would help nrovide this kind of overall direction | | hie ga weanrecentative of tha Ssoretervy of Skate and the uch and TOR SECRET. WA rep rh A UE i | HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 95
e . sy on hee Os eae ely f . . 92 im L \ 7 4k . L ' Seaercetary of Defense ars nomectel to atten! or whether they're = all sunvosed to be desiqness.. * a on k ak the mrotocol is hut is it like] a | I don't know what the prot 1 is but t likely that. | _ . a . . —_ Voi the Sacretary:of Defense would attend if it were a designee. - , ; 5 adoof the Secretary of Stake? 6 Mr. Miller.  Sometinas. sure, i : : 7 | Mr. Bader. Thev certainly. did on. these other committees. B But whak would vou NTONoOKe? [- oO ; . | | ) | Mr, AiGenova. The laravara is a little unclear. | " Mr. Rader. Perhene it should aay that the Secretary of i wT | State is cha irman and he nre cinmably then coud d da siqna te whomev r re | he nleased. | . . | V8 -Mr. Kirbow. As ao mather of practicalitv. if the | 14 | feos of State doesn't shea ur and the Seereturv of | “c | netanee ig there. who's aninad to chair the meeting? . bo : . | 16 | Mr. Aaron. As a’matter of nracticality if the Secretary yr | OF State doesntt show un, the Secretary of Defense won't be | fo | Me. Kirbow. And weu clinresa down because he's naver. L } on | aging to go to this kind of moaating where he takes um khe |. a a ey | dav to dav onerations,” YO Aren't voucreally tolking here. dan't vou laave the, - 6 | Vancauade so vaque that vay feil ta imply that vheb von vant is ; 2 rae TUE m oa | a4 | cal vauview of Fhe nmolinates sndonet khecdes kn daw. va ne vied OIE Ms 4 an | aren in Amgberdam and bes nore dr Rrunce le i TOP SECRE T | : f , t i] Le ~ oo VAR R Pra - HW 50955 Docld:32423509. Page 96
Mr. Raron. Thatois anteshoat owe wank ta convey and so “ voNM are correct. Mr, Kirbow. They should review the rolicies and goals | ‘t 1 and requirements. reall. Oo Mr. diGenova. low abouk noliey ak the end of the first Mr. Aaron. Human intelligence enlilection volicy. sentence? | oe Ganator Huddleston. wnd oliminake Ao park about size. . ' Me, Pader, Peauvdatroand maka recommendations with regard tn nolieies and nriorities. and then there's a misnrint here.. We dant need American U.S. clandestine. 7 Mr Kirhew. Dewn throndgh the -erd, the twa words. human wrenat deal of detail chovkt vhek they're surposed co consider. wheresa JF vau said ther siculd consider the rolicies of human } | i | \ é ea eallection bhefere the last senkencea, vou vat inte kind of a (eavert and overt collection snd the sorks of things vou have: hroutht to.a-committees. a consideration of this nroblem which | { thay have never taken before. a ‘) i intellicence, human collection and the trade-offs between i tte, Rader, T thinvl cs could ace the werd policy here’ | oy fo and policies and we will underline thak. © oo | “Recemmend the oatal tichre nt of a snecial committee of | | the OTT tea review abt Foerster: Ivuan intellicenn meblackion boat aA sen br ad oaatie recommendations with record Go omlandavtings heman colle itic oe “| | 1 { | mobbe ders 7 trey obhes rerdortihtecd rp ot mom) TOP SECRET rR. PRUE HW 50955 Docld:32493509' Page 97
nanerations and choices betvrcen orerk and ctandestine human collection. Mr. Kirbow. And tr. Chairman, withovt coing back and- helahborina one of the other recommendations, I think that the & | eraff should do that in each inetance whera we mav have given a task to a committee to do a sreat deal more detail because: earlier recommendation was ‘iat by statuke the nolicies governing 2 domastic coaunter-intelliqgones sheuld be considered, 1 You: don't wank them fo consider the dav to day operation | | even on this domestic counter intelligence activities my 1 i { | | | to, : tT dan'tt believe. | | | | | of the fact that we ara interastad particularly iv the Latter © { | | | . i Mr. Aaron, But 1 do think that we shouldn't lose sight | . , i i | ease and. think in this case that you're interes ed in the proaram. | we . i , : : . “eo | ITomaan you just don't want to say it will be the policy | nf the.U.s. to do some or it would be the rolicy -- I mean vou really want to have an crnertunity in a manaqdement sense to sy ll it's sunposed to achieve, i the scale of the program here ot ae apposed to. there in the ricaht halance toa. reflech our oo | triorities? | | | . . | leak at the overall program -- is the nrodram achieving what In other words fb think that o-~ my. Midler Thies nok oa robber wtarpp, veutro caving, Myr. Anran, | Thatta riehk pert dh Panth dusk ote teal wikh | TO SECRET oe OP TAR | : , | WW 50955 . Docld:32423509 Page 936
i cards en naner, It tries to cet at the nreblem of what are the | | nrograms and are they dot: their job? | | / Mr. diGenova. Wha do they make the recommendations to?> oo The CFL? Mr. Aaron. Yes. or thea Prasident. Mr. Maxwell. One romark in connection with -- make. raconmandations. ! Me. diGenova. Rat's make that clear. [ft just says — | a r+. MAxwe Mile Fix snectfy. t think it was | Mr, Maxwell. tn Pill’s fim. te esnectfiv. EF thank at | i intended that it's all hivsan intellidence collection abroad. Mr. Aaron. Yes. thatts riaht. as ras _ All. right. rmerhans we can ooo) to the next recommendatiin. Vy Nay this is bracketed. T think ib might he better firet before “V4 if we take un the bracket let's take up what is net bracketed : } and just indicate that this ia in effect hortatory, if you will. Tt uraes the oversicht adnmi ties ko examine che auestion of thine that need clandestinag eollection that are of high | iy “yo il etendestine collection to ensure that it's really focused on. 7 i clendes ' ) | | | | 1 orioritv, not only the hichert. | { ., oo i oF risk and effort and preag in which clandestine collection do | age | are the only means available so as to emphasize something of | tha axtraordinaryv nature cf esplonage . i " . a ! clandestine eérvices bilhe the wilitary services pnd the o : foreian services, be eiivicer to a vannewer cebhineg TOP SECRET en Mae heyond that there’ s the resormendation that the | i os po | HW 50955 Docld:32423509 ..Page 99. oar PA
woe rn he 6 T think this woul sot eeecsegt that that eedlina be'a 9 public figure but that bho Coneress establish a manpower ceilinc i Fee that, just as it. has there other nervices: that ‘serve in the s field of national security. | | A. Mr. Kirhow. Yes. "ut te nut it in the prover context — and I didn't bring it.unm at that noint, nor did Elliot, .t t | Now I know Charley has some reservations about that. : vou look at the bottem of Pare 32, we in eur findings .section i discuss a voint on the fact that wa doen't “now whether the + be -size of the clandestine sdrvice ia the riaht size, We also indicate that over the past decade’ the size. has heen reduced sianificantiy, rerticular!y in the field. | f ; Then Te core over here and reconmend that thera he a | | | 1 i} | | | $ menrower ceiling for the clandestine services anly of the CN. Today there is a budaatr ceiling -on the number of neople in the CIA that is laoverned by. the amount of money that . they aet and the amount of money that thev ouk forvard to iisumport that kind complement. - OO | t | . FT obtected to kind nfo the finnina deen precass of aoing into a seamenk.of an agernys and limiting ita mannover hecause 1€ we had a ervstal ball. we centd do that very carefully and mronertlyv, Tl think. But [ can't sea inte the future and tua | | m9 Oe caare Fram Dow Wwe may noacd aver bad hacayse of thea nrG@htleis that wenld ennfrenk the nation. t t t ' ft PEA? Varqest olandastin: serrice uate | i on fend £ Phink. thak sinea th ds careafelly contralland be phe congees TOP SECRET t |. . : a . . . Wren mcr a UE . ; . i ; ' HW 50955. Docld: 32423509. Page 100
through its  pidaet Jeve"s and mannower. levels, lat's lek the agency decide how many peonta Lt takes to run a seament of its 5 | ovn organization. Ay - Me. Inderfurth., A very special seament. though. _ : Mr. Kirbow. Well. soecial only berause wa have concerne ‘ourselves. with the abuse acnects of it cunder the assassination i) ~2 tyoe thing. Of more concern £9 1s - should he the fact that the analyvktical section out hhexe probably needa «trenathening | i) instead of werrvina about recmulating the size af the clandestin ‘10 1 service, Li Mr. Inderfurth. Well. that’comes un later as well. Mr. Kirbow. Ne von think that size in anv wav contribut to the nlot against Castro nr acing of these other neonle? My. Inderfurth. To think dt has, in covert agtion throughdut Mr. Bader. Mr. Chairman, L would support Mr. Kirbow on thie one. Mv own view is tnlese vou'tra anind to Jo. ko the full. extent of addressing the avection of satabtishina 2 mannower eo i) ceitlings throughout the Central Mntellicenca Adency, to single An ° out one directorate. at thts noint doesn't really make much sense to me: thongh, T. andacskand the mrincinple behind it. DD End on. bh an Nell. I do toc. T think we can make a flak statement toak vor ceva aat tee biq that thers may : teed be aradnt gomechere up there heve ad whieh Ls yory dangerous TO? SECRET Oe "RU A | bda | 4 habkin America, oe a . _ . _ | a - \ | \ - | ‘ | 9 8 3 ; i? . 3 ; ar ms ~ DB ‘A + ae) HW 350955 Docld:32423509. Page 101
HW 50955 “a Or ey oy Oe feat time. Docld: 32423509. Page 102 situation. But T donth think wa have determined that any enecific size has yet been shown to be so detrimental and we could say that there ought to -he a specific level. I think the rest of that paraaraph certainly oucht to. ha continuously exanined. Mr, diGenova. The crecond nart of that paragraph really assumes that that kind of review would go on and if necessary, the committee could maken recommendation at the appropriate Mr. Aaron. It nroroses that kind of a review. The nurpose of having a mannover -ceilind as it exists. as I say - t seme oroblem. the military miaht have an emerceney next weel which would raquire pn snormtous expansion of military services. Now the point of it ie to give reallv. simnly to give or snacest that the oversiaht committee put in its arsenal of controls over the clandastine activities that the CIA: some handle on the clandestine services number-hecause it makes as difference. I mean they conta mut their money elsewhere. Senator Mathias. lies aheut saving establish and anmually: c adjust, or from time ta tims adiust?_ Mr. Aaron. The nsink ta nok just te set . higher Limit dou rather to sav. bo have thie kool, ped aven aghk the Sqaney | ta tell owes chet thak cet lian we ana inow. they michh woatl be IGP SECRET yor SAL” in other agencies where one could araue that veu vould have the memento atatngeenetnes tment tee “eee ES | | 7 | wl | | | | | | 1 : | | | : | |
6 poet - ag 2} on O77 HW 50955 Docld:324293509 Page 103 - | | much monev they've qok te suonort and thev have to come tell “under their authorized sheondkh. Mr. Inderfurth. rocther alternative is to say should consider establishing a mannower ceilina. | Mr, Kirhow. Could I maka the noink that. oversiaht of any agency necessarily entails locking “at the number of neople it has every year because vou have to datermine how Hhat. Lf we're qoinda to bare can ovarsiaht committee, that is e ‘ one of the funetions that it nerforms.  e do it.with our military services. butwe dent tell then that we can't pug theam-abl over in. that they can't put all the Navy neovle in dagtrovers .. Sanator Huddleston. That's right. but Tldon't think vou aancexactlys equate clanlectine creration with other tynes of ‘aganay onerations. iT think there's a differences here in the notential dmrack. ‘Tt's a seeret oneration. “Mr. Aaron. Should consider astahlishing? Senator Huddleston. .f£ think fhat Le oudht to follow the naracranh, Leave the narsgrarh as it owas and sav cthe committee: should also consider. tore advisahilitv of establishing ‘y mannower ocilina. Sepator tetodae.  Mlpostahle aciline. 1 Mr Barbee Poantto realise bpow whak guehoc recommenda’ | “TOP SECRET 'YROR Pr AU 7 i i | | bo | | +
iy Cn He am oe Po tae fear this committec +: recommend bo anabher cammitirea that 2 Wo mavbe they oudht to do somethin: but tC auass it's all right. a Mr. Aaron. I'm avvaid we do that cuite a bit. vas ro Mr. Kirbow. . Which ts cet binding on them, a Mr. Miller. In the Covernment Operations Committee 7 | ona of the nrovisions of the hill. as vou know, is an agenda, Me, Miller. We're just Javindg out the agenda... - ; | & lana many of the items that sre in that ecend: are subecumed in or ors rf . Me. Kirhow. Doesn't gh sa. ko the make-un of the individual | Vivisions? Overall size of the intelliaendae community is fhe |. | | | ve |oway they recommended ik. and © think (hat's a reasonable approath. | tr. Aaron. Turning to the quechian of the Nacency itself | pusher 23. this agqain is net in the cateucry of statutory | , | o& nranosals bat in the catedcory of urqing the Aqarev to ensure Y criteria For advancement within the clandestine | VEG that the skills of inte®llidence collection are fhe primary arvicas, Senator Mathias, Versus manadement?. Mr. Kirbow. Mr, Chairman. on thiz ane £ can conceive of nethtfic that would da more harm to either side af this e wale aA-carecer in thea clandestine servier. thakove: man’ get | ! i 19 | (| oMr.. Baron, Verses coverk cneretions, i | | You ack pramdted on hetan aaet abo bhis othar asmect of it. and 8 . od TOP SECRET i | peanquaa op betne rnd atoehatocawylre cupencdead te lhe clotne. i | | WARY Ss Pea | 1 4 | } ' curation than to-sav toa man tho wants to devote his life and | | } { | i 1 i | HW 50955 ‘Docld: 32423509 Page 104.
er: ce ae Log think dtte just totally cob of heeminda with what von wont. Le i ‘ 7 , ; a von want a qood clandestine aceration. vou want the best you 4 | eredit for being qood at.whatever he's assianed to as being in> this other intelligence husinose. ean find, and I think thet he should aet the same amount of | | i i ne Mr. Aaron. The intclliqence business, of course, is o4 their primary mission. { , Mr. Kirbow. Not-if le’sa oa clandestine onerator. ‘That! hic nrimary business and he doesn't heve anv choica over whath LEH or nat he sets assiaqned when he anes in out there as 14 a iunior executive to the clandestine side of the day to day tee te meet a ceteantnm  e e Jee ee. | oneration. | 3 | | | Le | | Sanator Nudd leston. Thot does this addracs? Lay Mr. Raron, “his addresses the orohlem of the sandestiod sol service which qoes to the several thinas. Primarily it 16 | collects intelligence. Bub it is in the nature of, or at least vo fl the past history of the Acenev, which Bill can sneak more. Aireetly to than I. that the covert onerations neople tet the hektet advancement. t's in wart built into the system in | 1 ory | that vou can measure tha affect af the covert amtion oneration | easier than this endless effort to recruit = qood adenk many eo || times which will fall throvdh throuqh no fault of the agent en |. hineelf. | - . . . | Porkhermarc o cgverk action onerstives gimniy ome ko ox i hioher Level attention cecter thar somabady who's a caoend agent | TOR SECRET | ; . WwepD Paul ‘HW 50955 Doclda:32473509 Page 105
i, iW : - { . : * sats Po handler but wha is realt> oseraking of f ino a very secure and: | o | remote environment. So in an effort te try to sugqaest thak they make a J real effort to compensates for what we have found in this area, | | this particular thing is destanad to urce them ‘to do their | | hack to try to overcome th:t noroblem. “Now we wanted to pit it in a wav that was not pejorative cand that did not exclivle the advancement of rnod covert operators. TEs von wank Fo keen covert enerationss I avree with Charley... vou have toa have qand ones and: verve ok ko reward theim,, T dan't think that this nartioular recommendation which. ry . ie to the Aqeney and not to ctatute does vhak narhans Charhey Faera tt would da. Tt simnts urdes that thev atv the proner o> weiahk to what for the clandestine services is their rmrimaryv mission. Mr. Bader. The nrohien of it is we're not after this realiv and perhaps it's a lancusade problem. We're not trying to suqavast here that the intellicance collectors in the career ratters should he favored over tha operator, Whah we vere Pn after reallv was that eo have noticed over the vears and in the recd?PA thak the intellisaerce onerstor has tended to move white dnteatllidene ectlectioy can he semething that runs over | o'% | that he hag dane. his vretectese ars very coickis visible | ; - _ | | | a . ; vweare and dbia hard crt bob tm bine trenches, And 7 think the | vom re ut i | . | Alona much faster. . . ; i i | i \ (0 TOP SECRET Le | . Mr. KirBow. Tim aarrey. TT dan't bhelieva that that's 16 | the case. What T'm really saving is. this. Over the vears yo) From about 1947 on throudh the ‘6%. clandestine omerations - 12 | or not is rrehably on the side of no. it's not in faver at ey | thea CIA hecause there ara only 165 versue come 509 er £90, oe a) in Senator Hiddlegtan. | 7 rely, ston tt sea thak ae being | | 43 were a way of Vife in the Cra, “thather tf da in favor today | . | } ] | ' | { 20 | opelavank | og As Toscan this itis nek a cmastion of whatoor ra iika aon : . ; ; ; 24 Ce laneteabine mmeral borer er vig te Tks meine baome bie cog kpon en | ig oheabther or nok thor: Patios daars wha serve pare: cehe ined vnduyw Po ‘TOP } SECRET {l° H. : . ot . : rr ee . “HW 50955 ° Docld: 32423509 Page 106
uo. : Ry Ne eA te I habe ryaferential treatment eet odvancement within the Agency. > Mr, Kirbow.. They sav it’s within the clandestine servic 1 i thak the covert operator ce@ts more advancement within the | 2 Ts that what we tee Envina to qet to here? > i ! clandestine services side of the house then the other people, } and JT don't think our -recerd supports that. It mav be that vou have found more of the Ai tors heinag from the covert side of the houge but ‘hat is. nmt what the 9 nkeaal is here. ; . . é Sanater Unddleston. Can't we say thatovithin the: | ‘clandestine services our Incuirv indicates that those in the } . , . eovert saction have adva anced in aveat r numbers more raoidgy? ¥ Mr. Vader.’ Yes. if think tha racord is cloar on that + “i : : within the clandestine nape ! ms Sanetor tnddlesten. And thea Committee believes that . and t | 1 H 1 { the Aaenay onaht to ensure that. all emnloyees, whatever side, he oiven the onvortunity based on their actual skills. ue ' 4 ja Mr. Aaron. That's the thrust of what we're trying to to; exnress here. Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman. £ would like to reserve for wy Sanator Tower on thie one bacause LT donth think the record of as id 8. Mr. diGenayva. Hows aAboik Pf oue anid’ this  - the Ventral 4 { ‘ | t ' \ eo | the committes sunmoerts Hhar. , : | t | ma Intelliaence sheutd ensure thik tha gki lls of intelligence an res ; . an | eoliention ara qiven ccutl censid ration as a erdtarien for | TO - SECRET | a i an H ‘ yt os . } . ne Ry PRUE : i AW 50955 Docld:324293509 Page 107
atrete Go ne L4 fy on) ra YZ. ¢ “a oy: od HW 450955 Docld: 32423509 Page 106 to acauire information. and T think that what welra try oe Loe aivancement within the i iandestine servicss Ms. Culbreth, «Than von aot back in to what we struck owe from the original, which “as as ‘onposed to covert action onerations. We deleted Enat Fran the earlier thing to try to avoid -- 5 Mr. diGenova. I'm trving to dust paraphrase what the .. Senator just said, what they said was the thrust, which was that intellicdence. collec thie sanabilitias arr out on-an equal Fantina wlth onerations.: 7 ; oo Mc. Raron. What j) Sink is a hethter wav to pub the: noint, and it's along thar. going line, micht be to simoly say, to urde that the Agency atisure fhak khe gikilis oF intellicénee : . : i] : 4 ’ . . fb . .. eotieetion are civen Lanap bance in advancement wivthin the clanilestina services of that mission for the claniastine sarvices. if von will. In other words, the areca VE bulk of the people in the clandestine services, agi Charley nointed out, are in fact ‘ i bade ntelliqence collectors. Tha: are case officers for trying we i ng to * arrive at here is that it shold ba aiven an imnortance. that) — this skill should be adven en immertancae and stant ficonce in f proenartion to the sini ficsacs toat the Adency ancords tn that - ‘narkionlar bask. | Reqs ter . Mam hoy jac ; Thy pe age } 1 are WA bry ; net beex rps harna - if oevh peek Aya we mebhine ab the Uack that wep anh sore shart who. hacaus. TOe® SECRET. WA H?TD 7 mrt | } | | : “| | | 2 : |
' ; ' u uy I th rs F 4 d ! A | i| | i Hy 1 ; ny ~ { . ao fl wy | yy ia 2 | | al ad ey ; | es | ea || | \ j { | i _! Me ft rememher bhakia i LOG nny avaiable ‘it yf their clandestine ski erst av?) the nek of them, that they o-' ahead and I think that that is a prablem. You see it in the armed services all the time. Commander Buckley ouho. because he was a. hic PT. hoakoman. and he just ywmaned fea be enllet an to take han Off Corrvidedor, ended un an RIniral, Mow T think thera i= such a human resnonse to courage and daring wndounusnal shill that itt eming toa be yere hard wha bedna a smuyowan oad thavowp ll end our cikhy a AF Rha ae wd yoards iptaridie aa se hense (> Phe nbs rags (- Lp : SRCRAT "OPE. ‘Tor Mave belry Tsar oc ven , (50955 Docld:32423509. Page 109 mromotions. Nackeenny ce reece eee ener seenetee rer eet apa ae a afer 7 | and Towoen't. comment further, ' | | : | tine | | | | | | | | ta defleet, that Fram havior Sea antural eublet in recemition. Mr. Faron. he Tear lat of the srahlem is in the nrture of: thins and the recesmandabion crea Been ry effort to pirk ae an ranord ae bredned. tn ceamnang tea Foe what T rink ae rishtii aay, ' | Covert aetion drsen abbention to the operator. Clandest ‘ead lection, vou de not fray atbention to voaursal’, Mr. Kairbow. There is a move basic nrohlem to this at the NTE eN . 1 dda avend some icensiderable time in this business. The oxecllent neonle. the meets vho furn ort ke he excellent in the Anoney and qak the ariel prometians are not nacessarily | ere heeasise thav are cnvert anerskers alone . Most ne tha ara Fine, been fe that thaw liave ar that thes had in the earity vaars waned Fe be in thak husiness henause
Jecision, Senator Hluddles ton Vell, there are too many elements hore involved in who oud toa he promoted... There are too many T Was t dan'tt know bow we can advine them on thet. I “chink F would strike that. fo would favor takina it out. i j 4 [human elements and somahady ies to make a decision. i . . . . 1 j \ | , . : | Mr, Aaron. Okav. “Mumhar 24 qoes to the auestion. of 1 eerie tetera Teeter fe relationship hetweaan th Jornestic contac’ Aivisionw and ne) rt 7 Pp] the directorate of enerations oor what is cthervise known as the clandestine servic. In 1972. T helieve it was. when Mr, Schlesinger weng po fe te the CTA. this direcktorato whose nrimary raenoens sibility js rz i far eollecting overt intellicence hut which bas a supnort ‘ Funetion fer the clandestine colleetion or the clandestine ? 1 ' ' i | I i Lreerujdtmenk of agents wijthin the United States wag then moved if | i i I { into the directorate of anerations, the. Commi thea's oun hearings and testimony on the ay suhject indicated that ao reasonably Jarce rartion of their activity and their contacts ara usead for the initial stages on | of trvind to snot, assets. sand qet peonle close to foreign intelliaence aqdent reeriitnank targets. Gg ae | _ Now there are. ene consern about that is that unlike ir a. | the foratian resourese Urtgten whose mission is clearly clandert ‘ roy a ' fo . So ey fi tbe demesbia mente sb tisdaten germroachee bhetr meente on an i. Losey haagda tk aqua. | Poy nam oa apy Pim opet rlaina any a TOR SECRET i . | - } i . { sO eae RUE | . . “ { BW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 110 : '
BW 50955 Doela: Steed Bt & orn te 6 if aaind Wo ad an / a are I i a Qo Aah L vet he ok ul atte pe ee i i t ln the ot ‘as hhe and i onat have at t oa | the | 32423509 Or vitie: eyert heeome formerly ne. Doan would. Like v And +o he However ,. do in elofal in ndanae at, Sa the line Committee? } genarate j ‘Lacakead an expressed Now BUI te od eens; Mame infoyrmatian Page i111: ceert an overt pipes Ou vou don used for anv: ar are hroudht whieh = all. that se anestion hatween an oraari or not in every it turns to tell 4 + iH this relationship is comnletoiv ‘hk have ' 1 the | a And Le it t out from, the d wheres. with rea al ‘clandestine: 1. Bader world nar are i we take some steps to try n*. some. concern another arm of oF tho | of the es SrA rout, hey. infodtmation ways ree ope rabkore thot a ry ta yea Gk iW person, ahouwk WORT heiry “yo lve : sm aro and f sejan when this down bo MES RTE t Net of inom lanet a Few livreetorshea Rese rner ko rhove hoard that this re into aathored think . sheuld ‘oconcern tn reinforce its clandestine and that like to tall Ins Polrectanc + nurposs. eunperk this the overt y some subject or what tiave vou on an open basis, for wa was. discussed haa services nf the neaontle we they orqaninration. oF sodinm rikh TOP ObCRET PAUL WoArim wi toa this tntolli- Vt. ard 4 the and nad a pretkhy concern to Cemmithee, character whears in , Lua OTA, your travels or advise us that in every wav. lationship is that some of those relationships x clandestine on neorje who might: aood ‘ it is the DCD now recome ropulated really sort noink, rie ae tle shout) | af | | | | ot
t tp om nee Ge Be ; . : aa i p 4 . | yo, . th ul i ' yo In other qovernmentes this mane function ia dene. for example, in Britain it's Jene Jer the board of trade because a let of the information is technical, economic, or scientific in nature, which is alsa true for the Di. as a matter of a Fact. | . ; . , 7 . « | And so the questior that is presented to the Committee | | is .do we want to leave the ncn where it is in the Director. of 2 | Clandestine Operations? Poa va vant to have the clandestine | Te ‘ te ta: . . ' . o | service, tf vou wilh. have a cuasi-overt arm within the United | il. | Skates widely spread out throucdhout the tinited States? Would | oS ype want to confine the clandestine activities to the cland&@stin ro |) service and the overt aqtivitles to some overt orqanization, : | 12 | DO vy ter “moved out to the State Nepartmank or some other oraanizatian 5 } which dogs overate openly ans a matter of cnurss? | Mr. (nderfurth, ‘hat vould that mean in tarms of numbers? Uow large is the necnP be that back in the Airectorake of intelligence in the Agency | Mr. Aaron. I believe Jhb is about L5M of 299, | | | Mr. Nader. Thare ara 38 affices. +O ee . ny Mr. Aaron. And they are about wo ar three man offices. t ( | { | | ( | | — 7 ; i RK lot of the rnersonnel in the PCD are in fact succunded from | | ths military services or FRDA. You know there are different areas. of tha MOUNETY thak have dtfferenk kinds. saa knoe, Aarieulture) antebllieence © tot of Bhese peenie come ouk of vO P SECRET - | . . . Wet igs Pau : or mardenlbure. Foe evamnie iF they're dinterestad in | HY 50955 Docld:32493509 Page 112
i ‘ oe Gs tht 4 | Hi Lt : sO a . lo ladvieulture. To omean it's s fumny kind of iwixture of osople, oon The CIA sort of does thas in park as a service of a common concern to the intelliaqence community and in part at 1 | least heretofore it doas the ‘overt. collection function as a Pa anne tre RTE apn nner f+ tether te 5 | service to its own analysts. 5 | This was particularly in the early days when we had ’ 1 lass access to information in the denied areas of the world. 8 tk was a very rich souree o” information for us. It still is| a  autke a caoad and important an! economical source. and it's ve fl a dond prearam, ‘Tne mestien is how much it should t> involved 11 1 an clandestine support and if-vou want te find a way to + 19 | encourage it, to. if vou will. eamoharize its overt mission®. iyo over its eevert wisstion ar do vent wank fo put ito back into ia | Some overt side of the Agenay or the caovernment? mE Mr, Maxwell. 7T have. tome very mixed feelings ahout this 14 || recommendation and the prob lam might be descrihed better by Jonkina at the flow of information From the end «poi int. 1 Le ig | for foreign intelligence cathearing within the United Skat A number of times thev neaed, and IT think they have indicated The @RN now is involved in the recruitment of agents _ | to the Committee that they nend come helm in determining: whether oe. they should go to an-individual and sav, can you. intreluce ; ie me to this netential accent of influence inca covntry. can ven inkreduce ma 9 the -etodcnt without bhat blowin ue in. their “acaast TOP SECRET weomeeay PV ‘HW 50955 Docla: 32423509 Page 113
" : Bee Nig 4, Gano: . a one | tt | i Hi - . J The question then tea han ean thes be npoaovided ctth the j ; . _ | a | information that they need to allow them to make a recruitment oy that the Committee mav f: nd ts valuable. T€ it is from the pon. ak has all the problems that Navid articulated. and Foannrectake these oroblems. The question the Committee har to face is where thev are going to aat that information, whether it should be for the UCD. whether it's located in DDO. From the nce. whether it's located in the under State Denartmant contret, t | | | | | | ant or from the NCn. or located jn the State Derartmant or i : . | My own sense of that is that tha decision that vas gade | i) i bo bv Director Schlesingar inowovind dt from the PML to the no 7 did raise the notential of commromisinga the nvart character, v4 |) bub it alse made the linieon which we find important more 1g leat ficient and easier to manage and potantially easier to ve | control if both elements are under the same set of auidelines y> Wand reaulations which would anvern the DMO as a whole 98 to ia ' ; i ya fiwho'mav he annoroached. whe mav he used anerationallv. ¢ ro Tf it's put in annther directorate or cutside. ¢ think 261 eoere a difficulty in that kind of contral and I think it's oO] | also. itt oahviously raises the auestion of whether the erp a Has aoind to aet the information thak it needed for a valuable (| . oo a5 | fu ne tion oF rearuiibing foredaners: while thev're in the Unttad oni - a _ O4 | erates. as 1 TobRinpk the Com bbe oan sy ane nur ther af wave bub LT Ss | yf. : i | TOR SECRET wen Ye PAUL HW 50955 Docld:327473509' Page 114 -
a oN say tle Ve, AY HY 50955 DocId: 32423509 Page Lis - an re f Crriet : ‘he Hhink that the end prod heaves no he looks at in the recruitmen of snies, and secondly vent Haver be Look at what kinds of a:surances could be made in ony branch of the aovernment if overt collection is being Gone ag to wheather that information edd he used bv another branch of the covernmant. - TF pen were entirely everk and a promise were nade to, Myr. Bader that this would nevar be used for an operational muposa or vou would never ‘vs asked as a conventing adult to aid in an operational nurrese, then the. end reeduetion might well be that the PRA Ls goina: te he sending rennje ouk covertly within the United States to arvartlv obtain information tay determine if they area aging ta make a cevert anmproach to ag ‘2 mam ctecrnaannenetatetetiemeteerertantin imp wntihanpennns spstirsthtnttntetng- ringer artes ee ere eo Far oiqn sow. and £ think that [ have real hesitation about. i rather than the information betna available from conventing iniividuals on an. omen baais, My. Aaron. If a contd add to that. L agree, I think the cruestion is if youl re aeind to allow fhe conduct oF rearnt tments to take placa and vere dobtnd- to ailow informatio to be collented on these mene Le. some body hag to dn it and sa you're not aeing bo aveid anv of those cuestiens by this. The issue sees te ooarht te whether the nearle who will initially headin davelorims that information will ne people with avert dneantive te beer Tho within certain tounds or: whethe 2 Tuavoor eibuetlion in which “he iar SRCR oT PVE
ry Po rey ins ' oy Pu) ony ert) foe “ ra mn ery oan | me i | | a differance having a wroblem because it is associated with tha Cin. mye could leaitimate Ly hare raphe at th reademion and larae- nunbers of neonle who oblreien. if one other recommendations j.. here are accepted ant sven some of the internal réqulations of the CLA are written inte: Lew. meade sole he -kind of off bounds for onerational VEE “Now the nen, however, hecause Le as overt, is-allowed to deal with these veonte. ancl the ames shion.is. well. the innentives to he soraumaleus in their activittes, keeping them avert and not trvind to une reonte sork of for orerational sunporct and so forth, #hé susstion is vould those irventives he hetter ontside the Ne or inside the OP or vould it make bbe The second poink ia. sud this is « somewhn” dite -rent redpk the NON as having an inevrasing mroblem. colt. trankly, anrfowe Jrave had testimony freon tir. Melson and others. he's Now people are relic rant: ho COODEnA ke with then because OF soncern akhout: heina aganciated with the OFA, The Peck that thaw actually do ensade ino enervational suepert deesn'* help that very much, And se the cmerthion fe Pe vow neally wank fhe ‘ollest eunloitation of the forsien inte tliaence. nen Foret intel liaeres notentinl of te: American peondea whoo are «i Llling lobe deaporabecanerty chemist rhato bh heb eer nek yaa afi ars ae ePancde shane oe b tata GaaP & SES Ret HW 50955 Docld: 32423509 Page 116 bese bisgyey Vytr omeenaer ¢ SAAS nat im
a that they are getting the tens of information thet these a BE ag RR rh aearoneraterd with ih? ee anaheim nnn we That is somewhat ccrarate but relevant. Mr. Kirhow: Mr. Ghairmen. apparently they're not talking faboaut doing it with anv fever peonle or any different neople, Hhat voutre talkina ahout calling it semething else. Tn discussing this wih Mr. Nelson. under whom it comes now. and with Mr. Proctor, vnder sthom it previously came, . thee da not distinavish anv of the problems, that they are proklens in maditatndne contank with ever 109,000 Wevind any & American citizens who are Vind of returning travellers and- Joval eitizens are willing Fo-aten te tham. these neorle Adverkire their address and probably nut their kelewkene number in, the public telephones fa eoach of these IV offices. and all. vow haw te da is leek if ur and sav that's | a CTIA function there. rt ‘is nrohably as nuerk aa anvthina they do excapt teatife on the HALL. which Nas become very overt in the past vedr or two, Bub just te tate about saving it hack into a mlace where they dust moved it mut of on the lack of some kind. of reenrd that is not vorkind meonerly pew or mors rroperly decide that you wank to raya dtoeut of the CTA end into the | | there. I don't think welrs in a mositien to-decide that. To- | Penartmenk of Gata. Po fhint the veaord ds botabtyoeeid on the ocisk TOP SECRET weeny PAE. HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 117
HW 50955 ang) . ee Lo Toqusk hate to see ous crecoame jie - Latina away Eyes one elace and puttina it se: nhac else without -a record. Senator Hart. Canth we recommend that we put it back dn intelliaénes and the overgiaht committee consider that. athar it's created and so on. Mr. Bader.° It was a cuastion of consolidation of eR settee epeeretecneeetitne Senator Huddleston. “Why was it taken out of intelligence i g | coliection in one directerato, OM You see. while the domestic contrict service was under t e : ; . : joj the DPT. it was a collection service. Lh was in an enalytical oI branch and.Schlesinger, ag T understand it, felt that it was ; i oo epee tidy thing te do to rut all collestors under the same © - ie Senator Muddleston. vert and covirt? Lgl tir. Bader. Yes. And fT think the tseues pore fave been “pee well articulated. | LA Thad very litkle to add to them. ¢ think it is an | issue. 1 have a personal concern that we have vot taken the =| ‘gq i responsible officials at any .tength en the record on this 13 || ques stion of the relative advantanes or disadvantases. De | My cwn personal view with some-experience is that it a | seems tome 1.£ would make a areat deal of sense Fox this . i L ; ‘ . . ; . ° jo, | tonetion to be under the PNT toa emphasize and underlina its o« | overtness and that the indi: ituala who are in this porticular oa | service or mfFpoe then werld. flaw naturally froma rho cualytical on, | site and Ak would eo Wear if ferent hints of megnte ot they tended L | - VOPR SECRET ; ; Docld: 324233509 Page 116
bey th ; av C8 mata ge og 7 LLG | : , : i kes he before 1971, 1972, | e Senator Huddleston . fs there any chance that anybody would he denied the product oF this investigation if we changed it? Mr, Rader. One cf the thinas ve should hear in mind, My. Cheirman. is that if vou co down the road and talk about ia t these various reforms or chances in the intellicence ve thee | A j that movina the DCT functins and eanhancipa bis newers and then 2 | nerhans eyenkually serarabing the Director of CTA Fram the hid that ak this noink it would seem Lacical fer an overt | nollection side of an intelliaence ameney to be with the ?* | - vo if ner. “ air ; | Rut that is down the road as well and nerhans vhat we my wank to do with something Jike this is 2 von Jon’ t understand 6 | that noink? 16 Mr. Maxwell. Noe. f donth. ye Me. Kirbow. What he's really saying 1s that Lf you move | all of this overt side ouk mt the DCI. vou leave the: anvert side ont there without ane of thos snuenork Funetion. which this troup furnishes to them. ry “Mr, Rader. Nown the road when vay have a NCT take the ontire ODT Canawhar Ty Ataenhen Peay Mtowe houn a Ribkvat on vuhara an net meaonk omiohb oles hobkh secs kb sucloaye po TOR | SECRET Vie re » PAWEL ! | | | 989 | Mr. Maxwell. TF vou ageime that the NCI is acing to | | | ‘HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 119 - Oo ;
HW 50955 24 aaa mak Mr. Kirbow. These oeoela out there are nok aacnts, These are emplovees, Ait cnost of them, by the way, are former ei ployees. They are retired CIA officers. Senator Huddleston | They are not mixina the assiqnments? Mr. Kirhow. Me, They, for examnle. T don't mind putting this on the record. i We had a large international organization in the company. Towas with before f reaturne | te the Senate. Vefoere we departed ve could vet a briefine on the mlace where we were going to kind of safeduard against mating defense mistakes, ar l when we “of shatever it was in Sincanore, what was the situation? What | | | came back, they came and-had lunch with vou and asked you to kind of reveal or when vou vere dealing with the director . was the atmosnhere? what's «sind out there heease vou were ina business atmosrhera and rubhad elbows and they came and met with you and did this. ar occasionally you would stop hy the San Francisco office and vou'd do this. “what's the husiness these neon le are in. ovincinally. fen’t that correct? Senator Huddleston. . ‘iner. do you have an thouckts on this? os | Senator Mathias. 7 ¢en't think anyone has discussed - ankinn nurher 2 while Live been sitkhing here, ard Do havon't hean stthimes here consistent inl Rub ts theracany values to poe Le baka? entbine tb oak cand scr th PAL cRET Docld: 32423509 Page 120 i I | | : 4
ne _ oust to be the de ttlta ardencate, ome of tha wAtneas that 5 -_ : pe ° : : fe lt aecurs to me is to bring the State Derartment in touch with reality. Mr. Kirbow. Well vou'Tl never ae me to tell a member { of the Denartment of State tersonal business that I was conducti in For mv company in Sinaapors hecause I don't think that it would ke -- T'dVoput ih mersenatie. Lf don't think that T woudd | fn € N have truszped them with the secrets of what mv cewroanv's operatin ‘ware versus an intelliqanca erdanization, Not an anen ages . 11 | orqanization like the Nenartment of State. - ane Mr. Aaron. The infersation eclteched by the DCD is: ra) Fouluy available to every adcioaoy of tha aovernmark. [k's not 14 | eonsidered classified or secret or anvthine alse. Mr. Rirhaw, Thee anh eeu a lot of cmestiongs. | . vA Mi Senator Hart. ‘The vrinesinal araument, Mac, is that men no recard on this and for vs iuek to hanhazardly make this i . yo f racommendation without our rererd on Toe h The fomnoromise Tosugansted wae a rescammended omhion L- and that the  new-commitkes Look at ertion 2.when it is in 20 | | | : | : | | | Senator Hnddleston Thm inelined toa aq with ovtion Ll. | | r | | | o, | existence and has made a reenrd, ap | oe. TO Rave a eueastion, ge csavs the Committes reaame onde tos pearmara aq || oversicbt coammiibeo remeye oy Ger ter bhaig credes be works - ae i 1 a : ab p 4 TOP SECRET | ; Se ee Bed ¢ oe F ; | . HY 30955 Docld: 32423509, Page 121 werner PAUL
R Q HW 50955 Docla: 32423508 | Page 122 Ceetoally de and we will bare thet on khe recerd. tin. Aaran. I just thiel thab dnodvattine the charter -- actually you can just sav ver cerommend by statute or vou could sv that the Committee recowmemis that it he removed or moved hack. and vou can Jeave ih te the MCI te do it. Senator MWuddlestan. Just recommend that it be done. oe siete oe SERIA sep ROUA nee pete = Mr. Kirbow. Mav I resnectfully reserve on that? Mr. Aaron. , All right. Now 25. wa're qoing to get some teatimony temerrow mornin on 25 and 26 ag teow And 2) will be mover om. an we have talked aheuk it anrlier. And 26, then, vas the order of business, and that is thea rmroresal- that in feeb ve merhdh te conetder «a medel rather Vibes rhe Rreitish. which [Ds bhakt counter jinte Lliaenes by the CTA and ey oo Lon sorry the enthor oF thin is neh hee vor by the counter Intelligence. Iyer bh OIA. and thea "er. ie sonsoli- dated inte one oraanizatian sleans the Lincs of HT So er 6. he. Inderfurth. rive, This would Senator Muddleston.:. Vhera wountd thak adaney he in the structure? Mr. dicenova. hia de tha nolner To wag aebhbtinga at before that the doinestic tas force an? John FLLLE£L has some problems with these rocemmendatione thab Tim Guat sootlichbtins rhis a on cr ame, He dees tb conte actbhore eri, fey a BE we ws re came
a a - ee vg oe e 4 : 6 fad XD, | recommendations that this be dens by others. It's just an Me. Hiller. hate become he hasn't beard the | “Mr. Kirhow: Hela veasd it I-reserve on this. Mr. diGenova. T'iro net cure thakis | ston he considered. | | | Mr. Inderfurth. Well. the military intelligence services should he added to this Fert. CIA and militarv intelliaence. — : a | Mr, Aaran, TE voulr anime te consolidate that function. Lhoouaht te be consolidated «1h the war arcund. emer Mr. Miller. Whev're slichbly different achivities on Wy the nart of the military hecause they're involved in hase 4 | oo _ $ (2 | protection, - —— OO * | ba | Mr. Snider. Well, that comnter-esriconage cueration t Isn't that correct? a eT involves their own nersonnel crortd-wite, a Mr. Miller. But in connection with bases’ that's their Me. Snider! Not necessarily baees. hut information, . 3 pte Yam ¢ tary infermation. Ag Lona as you are aonsolidatined that connection. . CO . oe -funetion. IT don't see why ww shouldn't includa the rtlitary ag TE's Vust a small nnint.’ 5 ad 4 3 ct i jute 9] > iQ a9 Senator Hart. Mr. hairean, DT eertainiy faver the ov fcencank that if there!s eny cpr area cchere we gsr aven a little eg di rarns clementel Wor were Pasthe connmker-intallisonse areas. . “TOP SECRET weclapes UE t HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 129
3 hha hidinea olaces For recoensibhi lity ong cerounbarbd biky . Bak | tT think creation of a spenrata mde here and consolidation would enhance accountability rather than mate it more ssstiontt, 1 “We have found ont in ay Look at the Kennedy. sssaasinaticp 5 i and L-think in a numher nF ether ingkaness, COTMTELPRO and so “A ji an. there was’ duplication end overlap and abuse and peor: ° | rerformance and misnerformance and about everything you can ‘Fhink of aninag on here ler beso bie FEY and the & yn and maybe aven the military. yy Go T think we have fe teal at something and nek just reeammandation to malice. . ihe Mr. Miller. It doesn't have to be into anew acency. . —_ t vt | { ' a mandate on counter-intelliaence. I think this is a + soung | | Thomavy be a rejationshin theh is Less than anvagency. mf Nr. Aaron. Is if the cnacept here that khis oraanizat ick ei owenld conduct all the counter-intelliqence activities abroad? | Tomean in other words, the counter-intelligence functions that t avery station has to, jin effack, cominek. €or axanple that | i establishes; perhaps nuts an agent ino a local security service: Die) to make sure that local sorurity service 1s. _eooneratine with 24 Ws and fieot coonerating with the Soviets . | ga | That is the coamter intelligence action. Is that ‘someth | thie ordanization would do os well, ar wold there he ay | danartmantal eaurcar-inte?dbisence nerelbved? on Me Tarheae, rr we he hat bay sats nik ‘ap ltbesabdicn in mate ba fae? . ° . | a TOP SECRET. | ‘ . . . wi hi : : . wean eu HW 50955 Docld:32473509, Page 124
HW 450955. ry we -examination lead to lari s fteatinn aft role and rameve the 4 7 Sn we cg TR OF ion nronortions, major agnar tn ne Phe PRT. hecanee Rhev nas. their aqdents for dual purposes = if he isn't out here law enforcing. On a Priday afternoon, then halts doina whatever else he's cmalified to do in this fietd. Mr. Miller. Thatta vart of. tha rengon nerhans that some of the abuses have occurred, The qrev area becomes very murky indeed because ef the dual nature of the agent's activitie wheraas the nursulit of Faron anemies, and -athear than having the hand-yéfs of the siknaging’ that we lve had in the past. that consolidation mioht remove that nrablam and it wight upon kinds of arey areas that existed in the past. Ent it's only 2 euaqestion to Took into mere thorouchty. ete vethiog more than that and I think it has merit to at least look into it thoroudhly. Mr. diGenova. crhat's A specific recommendation that the. nev oversiaht committes consider that auestion. | | Me. Kirhow. { ued jugt remindad be mv colleanues that that recommendation is rather sanaciets thay can cdo anything Tan think here nunin. as we snadested partiar va should -remove the words during ths vevt vear hecanse if they do t or not.do anvthine. ; . | } 4 ‘ averythince that wa hava reccemoended., thay vent have hime to yaa Tench the wc bhdpec oe eradaeg 0 Ube chon owas that the oversichh aamemitte  chscita-aa sider bhis?. tT thank that To r SECRET verte 5 PAU exer gear metre Docld: 32423509, Page 125
" recommendations that they consider too. ae “Mr, Aaron. Now -- i Sona a an! Senator Huddleston. Lovoutld like for cur recomnendations & | to he more specific, but fT reeednize thatithere are times when ~ we can't. mG The oo iouwhab about recommending this sbudy? Area veu for it? “isd tecowmend itis a acod thing or a bad thine? . Ane! k response can be. wall, we den! to look ak it. yooe Mir. Aeron. Vell. € think in some cases talxina akout some ideas that deserve a measure ic | te he seriousiv considered. To omean, FOR 4. XY think ihe vay the Committee came out it vas e aivea lealtimacy to the idea and its practicality one might well oy || committee. ae ke think that serk of Faille in that same 2p Senator Hluddleston. (Voanld heeause of the nature of oe SECRET | Pega HW 50955 , Bocld: 324233509 Page 126 ‘a short nerid of time ant they may have more important now. We dust think ve ouqht we re examno le , talking earlier ahout the PCT heing separated from the Agency. Carers ry it belr ahy to sav that thie kind of ackivitv or the ! 4 i 1 ‘directing anetirr cenmittee ba do many thires within .. | | | , natural auestior le aging te be to us as members ? No you our only s Se yeally. .ditimacyv yo vere ally to “Ladom eversight 4a (o Tact tha “ko i
; , ga ts reges Oe gi a 12; | { . ° ri ; , 8 * : ; ~” . \ Mr. Virbow. Sennter. tha individuals. we con't have any , | . i creat bia record that thors ware roque agents out there in the x i | j Fat doing this. There ware roca policies cown at the headquart | Now if vou have the sane bind Of, rosue policy in a new t 5 j2aencys you'lL have the sana end resuLt. eo / So it doesn! t accorelish anything. for us to do this and Senator tluddlesten. ff didn't snacifyv individuals. pote ct pate i?) duet said it has hannened ant this the area thers 1 | noint at the individuals hecnuce it was a nrincinal. , | susceptible. Mr. Kirhow. Certainly tha potential for abuse is great Min this area and it should be stedied carefully and nvobably 14 | committee. , . ~ . 7 . . | urdentiv by the Subcomnithoc. Tomean the new overvsiqhk i vas , - Senator Hart. TR wasn’t potential. it wee actual. I'd i: || Like to see the committee recommend stronaly that they go in this direction.on the basis of our 13 months of looking at the 7 Le. | damn thine. 12, - To dentt know haw Lona vou bave bo -study seme problem a >) || bafore you do something shor it. Se anator Huddleston. Walt. I'm cantenk bo laave it as 4 takina out during the next year. na ' a : pte Kt Me Oylbreth, pictowe add militar: services? | an + Sr Mad dar Phabr on eee d oajns ; | Myr hie, | OM Pormewyybey Siete Li ee fonction and less po FOR SECRET re : . : tr NUE HW 50955 Bocld:32423509 Page. 127.
i b. 8 « a a: : - - | pouk the acnoenecias indiviciolblys Teaye euk thea PRT and the CIA. | j . . | Mr. Miller. Io thint namind them is. a aqood idea, i { Senator Wuddleston.  cuess this mets into the domestic i | | east force also. | Mr. AAron. Yes. The Committees will want to Imok at that ¢ , Now if we qo on -to sur next set of recommendations for ~ 7 dj covert action. we can he half€eav through the renort. That yonld he moring to nade 1. shera we will tale ur a number of 7 { t "| a ll yeeommandatioans related #9 ceverk action and paramilitary ] : : | in || activities. which relate ta what the stated purrose in law 7 of these achivities oudht to he. what restrictions miaht be > | winced unon them. what reviers and accountability norocedure’ | | mts anniv to them and what kind of conteods frem the Congress's ho | 1a | standooint midht he placed on then from the standpoint of 144 8 ! . eis tha huddat. or some other aspects. nacticularly the. | 16 j Davamilitary activities. wot If we start with the First one on rage 48 -- paces “Senator Mathias. Mr. Chairman, don't von think we ought ya | te skim liahtly. Much ac ve are all desirous to gat te that om || halfway mark. T think we had hetter look at the text very lightly oy | beainnina en nade 42. Tho wouldnt take very land hte co ) that. | * | - ; ne | (Pausa) a | | | nc | Senator Mathias. anv rrahlem with the Ananta e4 t yrboyane nt fifa r Trl ew prety tone rr regan mae ga eet bes om suse a -_ en | Neos haye aq racerd toe veinenert thea, Fo TOP SECRET - . : . ; wee PR “HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 128
6 Pe Bi oR fee By ihe 124 i df “ Hi | i - WInctonesian roference? | | | Mr. Bader. | of a question that -ainformation. Acdenev adresses to t whan ther: was an wantd he onlv ene “What's the H oTndeanesia naner? Wase lt ther veener: that we were { "My Aaron. -yeviewing with the Sanaktor Mat Me, ttdller. { | | | Me. Eirhov. | Mr. Miller. Mr. Kirhow. ‘ j | | {fo vny read bhie | reneark, | t Yes.ow> have a-mator study to support that. Tn. faet. one of our. biadest stivlies, ‘Mr. di@enova. That roises the issue, iff ] midht say, Tost want to knees as a matter of Have we resolved the suestion of whether or not the he releases. of x second covert artion paner Acreemenk anrvarantiv reached before tnat ther: covert action cane an that was or Chile? status of nedotiations now to releaca the Thea one vonlre talking about. a e another Antailed mane an a cavert action ceonsidertiicd? There was a onaramilitary varer on Laos which the Aqenev would Like we ote release and they are now view toverd rarmitting us to do so. hias. What ahbonk the Indonesian? That's elhasi fied. And the mnie en Creoace? Thakie ntnesi fied, hee. “There isa classified record that will siipnert this. comment. There eilt nok be a nukbbie reeerd. But Cane . tpaye rem ead Pool ont dr dep one ofhear IOP SECRET WN Er: 7
2 P. 10 Vi Senator MUuddleske : Mr. Rader. overation. the '57 operati Vea want to. gine Failure. aml geo did we, This was when r ; Senator Huddlestor. . is that sufficiant? Mr, Ve ted ,; aaron. rf Fret. VMetTi he quyide | Senator Huddleston. that. maaan? Mr Anron. That's braced, a Seratoar Mathias . some of these howevers tha will be put following the of khe santence. | At the tap of hae: little ctronaer, effective ie ian't worth anything, roan oat Mr litenova . Janenecpe bi thoes Copnatoay fHabkhice ris) 4 HW 50955 Docld:32493509° Page 130 Senatrer. (irl 6 6Fl cumean TF they denth uge it, bese wanda vex oimaya te ook Float Ny Bae A gresay bel ure opisplin en thea resulh of the Indonesian eeme fe ined oF a ost oy is. eidely known but it was a me re the Sumatra rebels and thay failed ane vas sghot down. Pack on nage i4¢,. this term sheep. a4 . ? . lene digeuedion of a f that. as a matter 4 he the Commi tee | Sberiliged eairmant, what doep. 3 eendomenk whose oaricdin By vanpok be hone that. yy PY TT ED ¥r 1 Lorre with first verb inetead of at the beginninc 12 T think vow Cogaressional oversichtk. tan, Lf Pho fe gey dane albreut $f. «2b thoudh-: pte eC OTE ee eR enptnsatcnennnnn anata WoL PPEy PAUL,
» oO car) fa ‘dewiae of trying ta alae ack Ferth some of the rurogso: of these missions that the Secnoy veauld be aiven and ip that -dnbendeet dn the fo eek fdamtanse be underlt oe khe vies 8 the aot 7 ce oer 2 ar | : At Tomei) tiles ke Ihe QA Teh bts bth sore Vibe, . ; | Mr. Aaron. TE there is bhe will to exercise ih. Senator Mathias. Recanss vou know. vou head into: the Rracutive Rranch and thers ts an notional anneal with the flaq vwayvine and the Star Gnancler! Panner be dine blayed on the Capitol stens ond all that kind oF thing, It takes some courade, and mere Fack that vou hnid fhe hemor of the naree, that it makes ik an easy mower to exerciae. Senator Hiddalasten. ALL right. wetre ready fer recommendation number Loon nade ft) mo > Me. Maron. T'm coding be oagsk PLLY Malar ta speak tog theses oyreammendaetiansg. le has cone the matar werk on this. IT'LL iuat simniy make one poink with veaqard to the first ons, and that is that in aiving the Nreney a chartor and writing down | i Todentt think we oudht to davnnlay the fact that, just the © | some of the things that if ‘8° to do,.ineluding the conduct of cavert oneratians. the coneent would he to use tha Titie I context the ceneral indunebions of The first recommenation vould aris: to be sure! mented hy the sracifies that folder. Mr Bader. Totrisk the lerenata ‘ia | | TOP SECRET | WORE | PEPE, HY 50955 DBocld: 32423509 Page isi
5) i 1A 19 r | variones noints. the axcertional natura) full accenntebi lite, i i ij i i ret and unt a routine ee ee Tt ts ated intended Lo nnlerline the Committees reaition that covert action adain in the excentional nature showld he used only hen other means wATL not do. | And then it A098 nn te tath abent that there should be precedrres for seeing that there dg hoth careful and thoughtful and theroudh consideration 9* the qeneral nolicies qoverning covert action and that thes rracedures inelete narticinoation af noliev makers at the hichiesk lave! and be marked bry accountability. What we're intending to dn hers is to underline thepe therenudh. svstematic ravi. Mr. TInderfurth, “whe Firck is lesislation authorizing the cenduct of coverk achionn mokas alear. That seern to he sort of present legislation. where is none. ae. naron. Tt should sav, recommendation: 1 that the levialation authorizina the cepduet oy. Revert actions make clear that its purnose ie ta resnond. Mr. Maxwell. The proklen is there isn't follewing from the charter. section in the First sat of recommendakbions, the reeemmendatioan other than the very early one about NSC that » charter far the CTA anthartcing the fFallowing funetiong shenule he drarn and that hecauges there ig net | bhat renemeendation fn this sect¥on, fT thiet vdebtas comment fe apmrerviabkes FOP SECRET | wae an . mo PA HW 50955 DocId:32423509 Page 132
Mr. Tnderfurth, Souehey hunt addon lina that that charter ® | should state that and then so into this. Mr. Kirbow. Are vou recommending a revision of the 4 4 19A7 Act to change the charter of the CIA or to make it clearer 5 jor more specific. or do you went to simply indicate here that the Committee recommends that bv statute. covert operations — or covert action he authorined? Qe Mr: Tnderfurth, T thin it sheul- all he in one plece 9 tin the omnibus ledislation. Me. Aaron. Yes. ¢ think that in fact in the heqinning | | | . ted oo . . i 3 14 | anda also in the section it simnly savs that .thea CIA is 4 ; authorized to conduct. if vor will, esnicnade and. that it also it + . . ondaht to anthorive. It ale sudacdests that thev'ire authorized PA | . v4 (to aonduct a certain amount of counter-intolliqerce. Mr. Rader, We canoan new to once 49 where we: have 1, || attempted here to lay eut fer the Subcemmittee's consideration. i | Mr, Maxwell. dJust.one comment on 49. The first clause va latter the semicolon, there may kha a more artful way of saying ro | that leqaislation should make sure that mrocedures he Caveleped within the Executive Rranch- ‘fis that desianed te de that hy Llevislatien or is that = recommendation? We madr some racommendations by statute to geko oun sx ormichaniam. and there may bo a mere artist war of tte, Paeter.  Partop aor ean dusk oan from Pbok ovccedurer TOP SECRET weary REE | | ovine tak, | | HW 50955 Docld:32423509 Page 133 ee ene cape carer ene nthe etre epee a
HW 50955 it oO i hard at that stage to he Liatted.. Hoe RAT BR PI | 31. 1 Mr. Miller. You can do this in various ways bv requireme ce: reporting to the Conaress. | . | ‘Mr. Badar. On pade 49. tor of Ehe vaqe, we come to the hard probhlems-here, and this section is addressed to the quest be developed within the Gioguubive Rraneth. _ | i i of sanecific prohibitions cy varieties of covert action. . It) notes that the Committee. has afker its investigation of samen b assassination attempts. has poenmuended a ontotute to Ferbid such activities. | What we nut befere bkhes Conmittee | | for consiveration is an a etaff& list of other pogsihta racommendations. You can | the First bracketed one where thare i+ sovie disrute as to | | whether that shovld be so included is all. no Litton! asgassinations That is to move from foretcan leaders to all. political assassinations, and we man anne back ke that. The others you can see are clear, and we vould velceme comment, Senator Mathias. “what ahout religious assassiations? Mr. Rader. ‘That naams to be part of the problen, Senatoi r with using all political assassinations. tre becomas a bit 5 Se Mr. Mavis; The tyecukive Order bas all political assassinations. Theyare shewl of us. Sepator Inddleston. Tn the hill that we lave rpropared Inbroacduced chit doen bt ouse Mr. Bacar, Th Cans poker ah the ofeerutiy 7 firdarg does TOR SECRET ower am PAUL Docld: 32423509 Page 134
a . re ar er Cee : . ode | { ' H ‘ t | kate ngs a nten further. | - Lo . - | | Senator Huddlesten. ‘io. wa introduced an anti-assassina~ x [son on didn't we? Mr. Bader. Yes. hat gnocke to foreiqn leaders. Poo Mr..Maxwell. The hill itself, L think, weuld have covere broadlv defined. Part of the nrabten (a the recommerda'ion that came out | i 1 | ' Ow | foresigr individuals as we!l as, because leadership was so, | _ -. i} \ | an } { } | | i | art tne stale level was thak anything that ve ga: aAboub non~ | | | | i a | Feroaign leaders or domestic assassinations cr the 1lib> implied - 7 that the Committea had investiqated alledations about thaty and 1 so : ; ‘ ; : . : s - ' peamiahht imniv that some crsdenco shauld he given ta chardes that | | es ll the Aqenev- had heen invelved in athemnmts. toa assascrinate peopla Lo - - i4 j} in the United States, and that was the mreblem of trving "| to word same prohibition that went bevond the hill that has y¢ | already been introduced hv the Sbnators. ye | _ Mr, Kirhow. Or of soma lesser wilitary-type individual in a foreicn country. You know, assassinatina a saratant is J nretkhy Kad as far as he ja concerned hut it would not necassarily ' t he nolitical. . ; | . . Senator Huddleston. hat about reace time? Should that | : 7 | 23 he in there? Me Karbew. Eo obbink en, bid lictinanish dd hetusen peac 2A | 4 l time ana yoo bime ly Pesvbogerereyy 7 Ryd AR by Fag i Toquestian whet ior ce opek having dene that befere, that “t HW 50955 Bocld:32423509 PBage 135 TOP SECRET ry PAUL
sa ry fo Leo | oc cy ‘desirable to sav something, tha ctaff could aqet lanauagae which Oe 8 SRB me bts oO r3u- nelitieal assassinatione ncet ta he Aisrousermd Farther ag a nrohibition at all. Mr. Maxwell. Perhans if the. Senators think it is vonld not imply in anv wav that the Committes has. Found credible evidence that the CIA was enaaved in activities bevond this. hit which would reflect their desire not to: their desire eo make olear that the CI’ cowie not do that. i Mr, Vairbow. bla os mora], finding that it isn't nmeacessatilv hased an wronddeind in the onask, Senator Mathias. This ranekitive but that's all right Far emphasis ° Mr. “irhow. We could vork an the landuace and show it. ‘ tn you anain, Senator Mathias, What about the cecernd ane? Mr. Aaron. I'm not epite clear on this first one. We- wilt draft seme Janguatea that makes clear that we did not My. Kirhow. hak os didnit find anv avidenne that would indicate that they had excaced in these other tyres of nmesassination activitica oat thak we dvowld prehdbit it anvway. cather than nolitieal Isaders. In that. thoudh, we considered LKhak mador or cotlonelonver ir ane of) tm the chert th ritorakion gorpibbes badmer ve unnetdepedhsthabk > Uo can mate bois clear saeloehbvoae can Rhea ardibtiesa’ Perna cred Irene Torii bh Chak bheoos TOP SRCRET Wort PAUL \ | | | Find anv avidence of anything other than what welva €nund? : | i | {
HY 50955 cenaeiny -that we hacd- jus “Mr, same ob the ay rorld indicate Senator Phe hid] bhatt ° “T think von rou then and the Jerdalation Me veoommoeyiad Fol - 4 Abbhomots, a shat ye | continues ‘ko en aA Mr. ar recommends: reaard to Aa nenee Lina, 2Q Senakor a | coormant Sruator: tha Rader. time the Admind Lanquace af all TA Kivhow, Committee eenkin SATON ake bo Maxwell. hoak hv merm i ~ rar bg ee ee th bolt ona tetteste that we had found eon led be i not reves Perhans tht would be helpful. Senator, but ahration has cose forward. with political asgsrssinations. which seems to me that it's mek a cuestion of a. finding. tuddleston, ‘ie outht to recommend passaqe of otha have submg chad. at roo tsa) And ocrapttens bo gupoert that Llecislation. AD pier to bd fa ld jush > VMN PL bk onackrent of sych Wamber 2 Csactng the Creiittea tas already leeind Pts davsski¢datton of -alleacsi Thea Comittee iv < ote faa pie 2 7) Farbid sueh- ac dorse that. Th could cav the Comnittee also endorses shatubte the nresent. Pxecutiva order in thing any robtkieal agnaerinakion na ananted in elected c fede lestan.  Ubrakh arouk doamoaratioaliv Mathias Pyre ebeayry i & da hath? Ctihye don & Teeny oA wo bhe cCommdbbas oadberabers tbe cnimmes b Phat omnaibton and OG residenkiod direc dee? whey mag nok ba anaetivs eallal. Doclda:32423509' Page 137 SECRET Weary: PRU ae are entree a cemeeenreene eee ee oe erecta hee . ifs yraocomended it assassination evidence - 4 “|