" ORIGINATOR: TOs JEK Assassination Systeny Agency Information: 457-10002-10151- INTERVIEW SUMMARY Document Information SSCIA Date: 9/22/20) Released under the John Kennedy Wesassination Records ollection Act of 1992 (44 US 2107 Note}. ases#: NU 54545 Date: ho-12-2017 TITLE: INTERVIEW WITH SAM PAPICH | CASTRO CIA PAPICH . ROSELLL JOHNNY - CLASSIFICATION: — Unclassified RESTRICTIONS: . Consulted CURRENT STATUS: — Withheld | ‘ DATE OF LASTREVIEW: — 09/30/1993 96 HW 54545 Docld:32261991 Page 1
HW 1 | 5 Peleased under the John . Eennedy WSsassinat ion Records Ollection Act of 1992 (44 U5e 21 ases#: NW 5 WO-12-2017 4945 Docld:32261991 Page 2 - HAS OR SHOULD BE DIGESTED: OY Note) $545 Date: INTERVIEW WITH: SAM_PAPPICH REGARDING! Assassination Plots “DATE-TIME-LOCATION: August 22, 1975.2 . Pappich' s Home in Atbuquerque, New Mexico FOLLOW UP REQUIRED: to a eee ncn e eter n er be beet n tee bee been : te AeA PP A S EXECUTIVE SESSION: YES ____NO Qt
.-<TERVIEW AND MEETING SUMMARY Page 1 of INTERVIEW $f ATTH SAM PAPPICH ; ; . , . Interview with Sam Pappich was conducted by Andrew Postal on Friday, August 22, 1975 at Mr. Pappich's home in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Mr. Pappich stated that he became the liaison between’ the FBI and. the CIA in 1952. He was part of a liaison section at the Bureau. He worked closely with Mef Khurtz. Khurtz handled relations with the various intelligence subcommittees, and also handled much of the relations with the Office of Security at the CIA. Pappich stated that he had broad access to Agency personnel. Pappich would file his reports with the espionage section of the domestic intelligence branch of the Bureau. These reports, in turn would be forwarded to the organized crime section of the Bureau when information related to the activities of the underworld. In the Office of Security, Pappich knew and had dealings with Edwards, oO! Connell, Bannerman, and Osborn. Ina directorate of plans, his con- tacts included Bissell, Helms, and Harvey. Pappich stated that he was aware, in general, of the CIA's anti- Castro activities in Miami, but not of specific operations. He knew the chiefs of the Miami operations, but was only interested in the domestic aspects of that operation. , Pappich heard that Attorney General Kennedy had direct communi- cation with the Central Intelligence Agency. He described the Attorney, General's involvement in the intelligence community as beginning almost immediately upon the commencement of the Kennedy Administration. He stated that Attorney General Kennedy was involved in, and aware of, the whole range of intelligence activities.. He stated that the Attorney General would put pressure on the intelligence community for tesults. He stated that while the Attorney General's involvement with the intelligence community began prior to the Bay of Pigs, his involve- ment increased after this operation. When shown. the Bureau’ s memo of October 18, 1960, Pappich stated that anyone in the Bureau would know the significance of the mention _of Giancana. Ue stated that he would have seen this memo in the normal | course of business, but wouldn't swear to having seen it. He stated that he did not discuss this matter with Bissell. He also stated that he doesn't remember discussing this matter with Dulles. He stated that at the time he would have communicated with Edwards or Bannerman in the Office of Security. He further stated that Mr. Belmont would have been his superior in the, intelligence division of the FBI. , ‘Pappich. stated that when the wiretap was discovered in Las Vegas it really hit ‘the fan. He stated that when the tap was found, the intelligence of the Bureau would have been on top of the situation. He stated that he would have talked to a Mr. Andrews in the organized crime section after discovering the involvement of the underworld in. this-operation. le stated that Courtney Evans’ interest in this operation would have been Giancana's relationship to the wiretap, and not to the CIA's involvement. He stated that Courtney Evans' reports would have reflected this involvement as a potential impediment to prosecution. He did state that when the Bureau learned of the wiretap 26 HW 54545 Docld:32261991 Page 3 4
and its relation to the. CIA, everyone at the Bureau was really upset. ‘they in turn would relate this information to Courtney Evans. He doesn't know the specifics,. nor was he present at any of these meetings ‘General would have found out the nature of the operation by contacting HW 54545 _«TERVIEW AND: MEETING SUMMARY Page _2_ He also stated that the Attorney General didn't want this connection surfaced. , , Pappich stated that with respect to the ‘CIA underworld connection, he would monitor agency contact with these people. He would report these ‘contacts to the domestic intelligence section of the Bureau and stated that he would file a memo of every contact as reported to him by personnel at the CIA. He stated that he was briefed on every meeting with Roselli and the other underworld figures. He stated he was told the nature of the talks. While the Office of Security handled this operation, Edwards was the individual at the CIA who kept Pappich briefed. He stated that at this time he believed there were two or three meetings. with the Attorney General about this operation, but We stated that his reports would go to the intelligence division, the organized crime section and the Director of the Far. Pappich stated that the Bureau first became aware of the CIA's in- volvement with the underworld at the time the -Las Vegas wiretap was discovered. le stated that reports of this connection might have been made orally. He stated that Edwards and Bannerman kept himself and. Mef Khurtz informed in a general.way. Harvey, formalized the arrange~ ment. He stated that the May 3, 1961 interview with Edwards was pro- bably handled by either himself or Mef. Khurtz. Courtney Evans' divisio would have seen the May 22, 1961 memorandum. As to whether, or what, was told to the Attorney General, Pappich stated he wouldn't have known of any meetings with the Attorney General. The CIA kept the FBI well advised after the tap was discovered . Pappich stated that the Attorney General would not have sone ‘to th Bureau in order to find the object of this operation. The Attorney the DCI directly. He found it difficult to believe that McCone would not have known of this operation.. However, he never discussed this operation with McCone. He did state that he had ready access to Mr. McCone and that they discussed many subjects. He stated that the Bureaul's arrangement with the CIA was worked out prior to the McCone administra- tion. He-also stated that the Bureau had no pre-wiretap information on this operation. After the wiretap was discovered, the Bureau was aware of the CIA's involvement, and the Attorney General was kept in~ formed. : , When shown the May 22, 1961 memoranda, Pappich stated that this clearly indicated that by this time, at least, the particulars of this operation were known. He stated that when the Bureau became aware of the CIA/Giancana involvement, an informal arrangement was worked out. He stated that Harvey always told him of contacts with the underworld, usually in advance. Information he received concerning Roselli was incorporated in reports he made to the Bureau. Harvey would tell him all of Roselli's movements, and of all associations with Giancana. He stated that to the best of his knowledge the CIA always got authority — 20 DoclId: 32281991 Page 4
arent stated that the FBI would not have been privy to much of what the _ATERVIEW AND MEETING SUMMARY | Page 3__ from either the President, the Attorney General, or the Special Group.. We further stated, that it was especially important to get the Attorney General's approval. He stated that Hr. Dulles had direct access to Prasident Eisenhower. -However, he doesn't know whether Eisenhower was told of this operation. He stated that Robert Kennedy would have known of the nature of this operation from the May 22, 1961 memorandum, or would have found out from the CIA the nature of this operation. He qualified this, however, by stating this is his belief and nothing he knows as a fact. Ne-did state that he got feedback from his people regarding the Attorney General's concern with this operation's potentia Flap. He found it strange that the Attorney Ceneral would be shocked by the news of CIA involvement with the underworld in May of 1962. Courtney Evans would have walked the May 22, 1961 memoranda over to the Attorney General, or had someone in his office deliver it. With respect to the interview of February 7, 1962, he stated that if he interviewed Edwards, it probably. would have been at Courtney Evans’ request. Ue also stated that if he interviewed Edwards, Re was absolutely certain that the Attorney General’ would not have been resent. He emphatically stated that neither he, nor to’ the best of hd s knowledge anyone at the Bureau, ever knew of any’ assassination plot. He stated that) the nature of this ope eration wasn't the Bureau's concern it was a foreign intelligence matter. t Pappich was quite certain that he would have filed. a memorandum of every contact with undervorld fisures as related to him by Warvey. ile also was certain he would have done-the same with information given him by Edwards. Pappich. stated that he told Harvey from the beginning of the stupidity of using underworld figures. He stated that he . believed when Harvey took over the contact with the underworld figures, he was only doing so because they were strapped with these peopvle. As far as the FBI was concerned, the damage had already been done wita respect to the problems of prosecuting these underworld fis Attorney General would have: knovn about this and other foreign intel- ligence matters. The agreement between the Central Intelligence Agency and the FRI was an understanding that the FBI would be informed by the CIA of any contacts with underworld people, “of their movements, and any intelli- gence which directly or indirectly related to organized crime in the United States. This information would include the movement of these figures, their activities, their travel, and any meetings. He again stated that everyone in the Bureau was madder than hell about the Agency's involvement with these underworld figures. To the. pest of his knowledge, he never heard that the Attorney General was mad about this contact. Tt was. his urderstanding, that the underworld HW 54545 figures were not being used operationally. When shown the references in the May 22, 1961 memoranda to this operation as involving anti- Castro activities and dirty busines ss, Pappich stated he didn’t ask what the operationally use of these firures was, or get clearance from above for staying out of this operation. He did state that the Bureau kept 24 DoclId:32281991 Page 5
LfTERVIEW AND MEETING SUMMARY Page 4 of 4 FILE: the Attorney General advised on what it learned of this operation. He stated that the Attorney General was concerned that this operation would become known, and didn't want it to get out. Finally, Mr. Pappich was most concerned that people at the Committee understand what the , nature of the. times were. Te stated that everyone's primary, concern were with actions directed against the Soviet Union. That actions directed against Castro's Cuba were an extension of this policy. Nis primary concern, as a member of the Bureau's domestic intelligence section, was with Soviet operations in this country. He feels it is very important.to-have an intelligence community in this country, -and feels that the Committee's work perhaps is: jeopardizing this importaht resource. . DA HW 54545 DBocld:322781991 Page 6