157-10014-10010 Date : 08/06/95 Page : 1 JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM AGENCY RECORD NUMBER RECORDS SERIES AGENCY FILE NUMBER AGENCY INFORMATION SSCIA 157~10014-10010 HEARINGS 01-H-02 , em came me ame cm cm es ene cams en A SS SS EDD SSD EDGED ad END NH OND AED ED OD cE GT GED GND SEED EMD GED SEND ONE SEND ED HD HD eS ee GOED EN SN SEY ee GEE GED GamS iD cad GED om cams Guth th nm we tah GE GE ue Gi GAD GEE SEP SEE eH GUD OSD ‘SED cE Gaul uly Wane ORIGINATOR FROM TO TITLE DATE PAGES SUBJECTS DOCUMENT TYPE CLASSIFICATION RESTRICTIONS CURRENT STATUS DATE OF LAST REVIEW OPENING CRITERIA COMMENTS DOCUMENT INFORMATION SSCSGO WANNELL, W. RAYMOND 05/11/76 85 WANNELL, W. RAYMOND CIA -ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE. FBI we COUNTERINTELLIGENCE - TRANSCRIPT UNCLASSIFIED 1A, 1B RELEASED WITH DELETIONS 09/25/98 Box 1 HW 50955 Docld: 32423398 {R] ~ ITEM IS RESTRICTED Page i
Report of Proceedings pee Hearing held before leo ‘ Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental — . Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities fo 2g Ae . niECTION TO n Tuesaday, May 11, 1976 Washington, D.C, (Stenotype Tape and Waste tutned over to the Committee for destruction) WARD & PAUL 3017 WILSON BOULEVARD ARLINGTON, VA 22201 (703) 841-0800 TOP. SECRET : : aM # ] it 50955 “Docld: 32423398 Page
| Hearing held before __ Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to. Intelligence Activities . ‘Fer Tar a _ CLASSIFIED BY: Stes Svofeer 15. { ae ig, ponte DECLASSIFY ON ; ” Ge i . Tuesday, May 11, 1976 Washington, D.C WBeNSctype Tape and Waste turned over REVIEWED BY FBIJFK TASK F to the Committee for destruction) , . ON aig doe - oo REVIEWED BY FBWJFK TASK Hig warp & PAUL «ON //i{yeof a » Sb RELEASE IN FULL : 3017 WILSON BOULEVARD Og RELEASE IN FULL 0 AELEASE IN PART | 23 ARLINGTON, VA 22201 JQD.TOUAL DENIAL | ene RELEASE IN PART i - Gl TOTAL Denia, TOP SECRET.
"TESTIMONY OF: We Raymond Wannall a “ —t Ww se) é 120] Hr Oo ood ON ny ct et oT oe md rot end et N NX a N Wve @ Gawa co00z “D'S “wOaburutens “BS “weasss Baty OL P= Gaz @¢ Y. oat ww 7-3 © p=
Tuesday, May ll, 1976 United States. Senate Select Committea to Study Governmenta Operations with Respect t& “Intelligence Activities washington, bp. c The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 o'clock alm. in Room 608, The Carroll Arms Hotel, Staff; Paul Wallach, Michael Epstein and Jim Johnston, Professional Staff Members. F) 2 € a 8 a < 8 416 First Steaet, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 TOP SECRET
i > «€ & é i) & 4 8 SG First Street, S.E., Wwatnungton, O.C. 20003 TESTIMONY OF W. RAYMOND WANNALL. Mr. Wallach. Would the witness please atate his full name and address for the record? 7 | Mr. Wannall.} W. Raymond Wannall, Weacn-n-a-1-1, 305 Southwest prive, Silver Spring, Maryland. . “Mr. Wallach. Mr. Wannall, you have testified before the Committee before. Mr. Wannall. Yes, I have. Mr. Wallach. Under oath? Wannall. Yes. Mr. Wallach. In any event, as I explained to you earlier this morning, the senator will not be able to be here because of a conflict in his. schedule, and I take it from what” you have said you have no objection to proceeding in their absence, although you do have the right to have them. present. | | Mr. Wannall. I have no objections to proceeding. Mr. Wallach. Additionally, you are presently, recently retired Crom the Bureau, and you do understand that you ado have the right to come before us with counsel. | Mr. Wannall. Yes, I understand that. - Mr. Wallach. And if at any time you want to adjourn these proceedinys until you can secure counsel, we will do that at your convenience. TOP SECRET
2 > € & 6 i] € € x 31G Fesst Street, S.E.. Wasnmngton, 6.c. 20003 Chinese Communist ayent or had attempted to or had in fact Mr. Wallach. Before we went ‘on the record, you discussed with us or traced very briefly your positions with the Bureau - since 1968. | Mr. Wannall., 1958. Mr. Wallach. 1958, I'm sorry. In 1958 you ware the number one man in the Nationalities Intelligence section, is that right? Mr.-Wannall. That's right. Mr. Wallach. Could you just very succinctly describe what the function of that section is? Mr. Wannall. Well, the Nationalities Intelligence Section was in the Gounterintelligence Branch of the Division and handled matters relating to countries other than khe Soviet Union, the Soviet Bloc, Communist China, -The matters were under various statutes, including espionage statutes, Foreign Agents Registration Act, and related statutes. Mx. Wallach. If someone, say, if you suspected a killed someone in this country, would that be within your jurisdiction to investigate?» Mr. wannall. A Chinese Communist agent? Mr. Wallach. Someone you believed to be -- I am being very theoretical, I agree. I have no specific case in mind. Mr. Wannall. of course, China was not always under the TOP SECRET
Mr. Wallach. | naking a country that’ was) sayy Brazil, for example, would you investigate that type of thing for the Criminal Division? | Mr. Wannall. If it were a Federal violation or a potentia Federal violation, that would have been handled under: the Criminal Division. | Mr. Wallach. So even though the Agent. might have been or was believed to be involved in a foreign intelligence service, the Criminal Division -- Mr. Wannall.. The actual assassination would be handled by the Criminal Division, yes. We would not disregard the agent. We would continue to follow and report on his- activities WARD & PAUL but any investigation of the assassination as such would have been a criminal violation and under the Division 6, the Genera! Criminal Division. | Mr. Wallach. ‘In March of 1962 you replaced Sterling Donahoe as Section Chief of Nationalities Intelligence is that right? Wannall. That is correct. up until the time of -- through May of 1965. Mr. Wannall. Yes. 1 i \ Wallach. And you continued in that position at least | . ; | 410 First Street. 5.€., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 Mr, Wallach. A couple of questions I would like to ash ao you about. At that time I realize that it may have been toucie. TOP SECRET
of 3 € & 4 6 & € z 410 Fivst Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 ek 5; hat we had over dn your office’ at: the Bureau or in possible other testimony, but I would Like to put them together here for the record today. | At any time while you were -- and again I'm talking from the period 1958 through May 1965 ~=- at any time during this period were you aware of the fact that the CIA was using the Mafia or underworld figures in attempts to kill Fidel Castro? Mr. Wannall. You are going back a@ long time, but to the best of my recollection I didn't become aware of that until after that period, and I think my knowledge was acquired as a result of reviewing information in our files for the purpose of reporting material to the Attorney General. A memorandum was prepared which I think you possibly have access to, and the date of that memo would probably coincide pretty much with my knowledge. | Mr. Wallach. I think the memo you speak about is a March 1967 memorandum which we basically discussed at your office the day I was there. | Nr. Wannall. That's right. Mr. Wallach. There were two. One was an internal memorandum, thea other was from the Director to the Attorney General. L would like to get to that a little bit hater and get your knowledge as to what precipitated that and what review was actually conducted, but I will yet to that matter. - TOP SECRET
Mr. Wallach. bo you know Vince Nasca?™ Mr. Wannali. Yes. If have known him since about 1951 when |ne reported to the Division. Mr. Wallach. What essentially ‘was Mr. ‘Nasca'’ 8 area of expertise within the Natdonalities Intelligence section? Mr. Wannall. Well, he had numerous countries prior to the Fidel Castro takeover of Cuba, including matters relating to Cuba. After that, I think he probably devoted quite a bit of his time principally to the Cuban situation, more especially the anti-Castro situation in the United States. Mr. Wallach. one of the documents, as I mentioned to you ca before,. that we still have not gotten from the FBI, although tis F) 3 < & 6 a & < 3 request has been long outstanding, is a memorandum dated July 29, 1964, from the SAC in Miami to the Director, and: we on focusing on the period 1964, do you recall becoming aware that oa a the CIA was attempting to use a highly placed Cuban to assassi- on nate Fidel Castro, or had been using, prior to 1964, a highiy placed Cuban to eliminate Fidel Castro, whose code name was Poof tor TST AMLASH. Mr. Wannall. AMLASH? Mr. Wallach. AMLASH. ; Mr. Wannall. That code name does not strike a note wits me, and neither does the information that you are ealling to . 416 Ferst Street, S.E., Wasningion, B.C. 26003 my attention. I don't recall.any information of that nature TOP SECRET
phat was in 1964 you say?” Mr. Wallach. Right. I will read to you -- we had access to the memorandum although wa have not hdd delivered, a portion of it. It says - have you ever heard the name Tepedino? Does that name ring any bell? | | os | oe Mr. Wannall. I can't say that it does. ir. Wallach. I may state to you, and it really doesn't ‘need to be stated, that the information we.are discussing here is classified, and I know from your experience, you will treat it as such. Sut I just wanted to reiterate that. Mr. Wannall. 1 will respect that. a 3 3 - 4 a & € F 3 Mr. Wallach. The quote -~ and this was taken down by one of the people on our staff, so I can't say it is 100 percent accurate: "He (Tepedino) cautioned the informant to say nothing concerning their conversation which would permit the information to reach CIA or any other source through which it might become public inasmuch as to doa so might result in the death of persons in Cuba as well as himsei: Yepedino thereby confided that he nad been acting as contact man between CIA and AMLASH. AMLASH has been contantly com plaining to him that CIA refused to furnish him with certain necessary equipment with which he could take effective action 416 Forst Street, $.£., Wasnington, O.C. 26663 in Cuba.” - TOP SECRET
2 3 € & @ & 3 < Ed 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 And ‘then ‘it ‘goes’ effective ‘equipment at-certain points in time. Mr. Wannall.| De fective? Mr. Wallach. Effective equipment: for the purpose of eliminating Fidel Castro, and it says there is now discussion under way with the CIA on attempts to kill Fidel Castro. Do you recall any of that coming to your attention? Mr. Wannall. It is possible it did, but I don't have any recollection of it. If it was in a memorandum from our Miami office to headquarters ~- and I think that's what you said it was -- that would not necessarily come across my desk, It is quite possible the supervisor, however, could have called it to my attention. I can only say I cannot recall it and the name Tepedino does not strike a note with me at all. Mx. Wallach. Was there any special -- again the period 1958 through 1965 -~ was there any special operations being run out of the Miami field office vis-a-vis Cuba? Mr. Wannall. By the FBI? Mr. Wallach. Right. Mr. Wannall. No, in the way of special operations TI think we'd have to define the term. Of course, we had a very intensive informant development program down there anony the anti-Castro Cubans, and during the period when Castro beyain releasing individuals and permitting them to come te the United States, we had a program down there for the purpoas. _ TOP SECRET
2 2 « a 4 9 f < g 416 Fees? Street, §.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 strying' to: $ plane. Now, I don't recall the dates of that right now. It could been within that sime period. ‘Mr. Wallach. Did the Bureau. to your knowledge ‘at that have, without identifying them, any sources inside Cuba? Mr. Wannall. Inside Cuba? | Mr. Wallach. | Yes. Me. Wannall. Not to my recollection. . There were sources that I -- I shouldn't use the word "sources" <- there were individuals who on occasion made forays into Cuba and we learned about information and conditions inside Cuba as a ‘result of people inside this country, but not agents inside Cuba, no. Mr. Wallach. Have you ever heard the name Rolando Cubela? “Me. Wannall. That name strikes a note with me. somewhere, yes. Orlando Cubeia? | Mr. Wallach. Rolando Cubela. Mr. Wannall. I recognize the name. Tn what context I can't recall. Mr. Wallach. Let's yo off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr, Wallach. Let the record reflect that I just noted co Mr. Wannall off the record certain facts about Mr. Cubela. TOP SECRET
Mr. Wannall. I don't recall that he was or was I can't even remember in what. context I recall the name Cubela, “put it does hit. me as someone that I/had heard’ about. before. Mr. Wallach. ‘pid you know General 'Lar.sdale? fe Mr. Wannall. No, I never met the gentleman. Where was he? - Mr. waliach. General Lansdale was -- have you ever heard ‘about a person MONGOOSE or the operations the U.S. was running against Cuba in '62 and ‘63? i Mr. Wannall. I have read the texm MONGOOSE in/the press 2 3 4 @ @ a @ < Eg recently, I have heard it in that context, but I don't recall hearing about it in connection with my official duties. Mr. Wallach. Did you at any time attend meetings at the Pentagon at which Cuban affairs were discussed? | Mr. Wannall. “During that particular period? Mr. Wallach. . Yes, '58 throygh '65. Mr. Wannall. No, £ did not. I don't recall al.tending an; meetings at the Pentagon on Cuban affairs. In fact) I don’t recall any meetings at the Pentagon during that period at all. Mr. Wallach. ‘There was a meeting, we've had testimony, that Mr. Donahoe and Mr. Cotter went out to in, I believe it was in the spriag vf ‘62. 410 First Street, S-E.. Washington, O.C. 20003 Do you have any recollection of them going out TOP SECRET
3 3 < & @ i] 3 < & 410 First Street, $.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003 oer. Wannall. No specific recollection, but 1 think cotter at the time was probably head of the unit which handled Castro affairs, and bonahoe -- in the spring of '62, Donahoe - of course up untilaabout the first of March of '62 was chief of the Nationalities Intelligence Section. so I wouldn't be surprised if they had gone. I can't say I can recall specifically.a meeting that they attended, or their having gone to a meeting at the Pentagon. Mr, Wallach. Do you recall any meeting -- and I have identified General Lansdale as a person who we have been told was close tn Bobby Kennedy at that time and who was_ heavily involved in all types of Cuban operations, operations targeted against Cuba -~ ever coming to a meeting with Mr. Belmont -- I'm asking you in/an attempt to refresh your recollection. Mr. Wannall. “Well, as I say, I don't know Lansdale. Is that his name? Mr. Wallach. Right. Me. Wannall. I don't recall a General Lansdale. I have, now that you have refreshed my recollection, some vague xecol- lection of a meeting with Belmont by some General. It may have been Lansdale. I don't know the name «~ where there was a discussion of Cuban matters. Mr. Wallach. Do you recall anyone bringing up the subject TOP SECRET
P 3 « & 4 Q & < z 410 Fiest Street, 5.E., Washington, 0.C. 206063 be ie) of -assassinating Mr, Wannall. “y think the subject was taken up, and I probably learned that from Donahoe. He may have been at the meeting. | Mr. Wallach. Do you remember how Mr. Donahoe told you that it was taken up? Did he say it was taken up jokingly by Belmont, does that ring a bell? Was it brought up by Lansdale? | Mr. Wannall. I would be reaching to try to say in what context. I have a recollection of a conversation with Donahoe where he said --now, let's see -~ I think the way that Donahoe said it was someone brouyht it up, some General, and my impression was that Belmont was about to throw him out of the office. So I would assume that it would have been the General that. brought .up the conversation. Mr. Wallach. Brought up assassinating Castro with the use of Mafia figures? “Mr. Wannall. No, not with the use of Mafia figures, I can't vecall that, just the assassination of Castro. fir. Epstein. Do you recall reading a memo or 4 document relating to that meeting? Mr. Wannall. JI am more inclined to think that I learne: this from word of mouth from Donahoe. Tt is possible if tne: document was written -- iI think if I read such a document “tne had Mafia in it, I believe I would remember that. TOP SECRET
‘Femenber’ reading any document reflecting a meeting between Belmont and Lansdale in which the assassination of Castro was raised? | Mr. Wannall. I cannot say, Mr. Epstein, I recall reading the memo « I know I have this knowledge. I think I acquired it orally. It is possible I read a memo. I just cannot say ‘Sositively yes or no on that. Mr. Epstein. ‘The knowledge that you are recollecting now is knowledge that came to you that you had in and around the oO) “time of the meeting as opposed to within the last few weeks or months. . & -Mr. Wannall. Yes. It was about the time of the meetiny d 2 « & & 9 f& < 3B which I recollect as having been in Belmont's office as opposeu to the Pentagon. Mr. Epstein. How do you recall it as having come about? What was the purpose, as you understood, of the issue coming up in Belmont's office? Why was Lansdale even mentionine: that to Belmont? My. Wannall. Well, I don’t .know that it was even Lansidaic. I can't remember at all. oR General, an Army General I think was the way it was told to me, or perhaps the name was mentioned. I don't know. It could be the name was given te me.and I don't remember the name. But in the context, 410 First Street, SE., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 just the matter of a discussion of the Cuban situation, and TOP SECRET
3 r ‘of attempted assassination of castro, and Belmont's reaction against it. | a Mr. Epstein. Was it your understanding that it was an_ assassination attempt that had taken place or a proposal? Mr. Wannall. A proposal, not any assassination attempt that had taken place. : ME. Epstein. Was it your assessment, then, that the Genergl was seeking Belmont's reaction to the idea, or what? Mr. Wannall. I don't know, just tha subject had come up, but for what purpose I can't recall if that was explained to me, or if it was, I don't remember. He are going back a lot of years. rd a < a 4 [*] & < bd Mr. Epstein. ‘T-understand. Do you recall any discussion between yourself and Donahoe on the subsect of whether anyone outside the Bureau ought to be notified that someone in the military was proposiny such an idea? Mr. Wannall. tf can't recall any such discussion. Mr. Epstein. Do you recall whether anyone was in fac fied by the Bureau? Mr. Wannall.. I don't know. I was not privy to the conversation. 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 Mr. Wallach. You don't recall being in Belmont's office during this, do you? TOP SECRET
F] 3 € <- @ o & « 8 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 “have renenbered if 3 had be ne Mr. Epstein. Can you “relate it. in pojat of time to any events, 80 we can get the. benefit of the date, or month or ‘the Cuban missile crisis? Mr. Wannall, I wish I could be “helptui to you on that, just can't. It was a conversation, as I remember ~~ Mr. Wallach. Do you recall -- I'm sorry. - Mr. Wannall. It was a conversation, I know. It was sertainly during that time period we were having our Gifficultits with Castro, but whether it was during the Bay of Pigs, which I think was May of ‘61, the Cuban missile erisis, which was October '62, I would be stretching. I don't think I can really tie it down as to the time. Mr. Wallach. Do you recall if it was before or after you replaced Donahoe? Mr. Wannall. My recollection is that it was before. That would help because I think Donahoe was the section chier at the tine. “Mr. Wallach. Io might say I think it was Donahoe's recollection that it was soon after or after you replaced hits, and that he asked -- this might refresh your recollection further,. if you had any discussions with him -- he abked Richard Cotter to also come to the meeting with. him,, and he ened | L TOP SECRET
2 5 < & 4 ° 2 € Fd 410 First Street. 6.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 General: Lansdalé. : Now, do you remember having had any ‘discussions with Mr. Cotter about this subject? . Wannall.: Now’. am pretty sure that my: “knowledge am thon Donon. And A quite possible it was’ during that transitional stage, because Donahoe went over ~-- he was working as an assistant to Belmont when he left the Section Chief's position, and there were some things. he had to .eave undone. I was just acting for him, and suddenly he was appointed, and the same day I was appointed Section Chief. Anu so we did have discussions between then and about the middle of April for, among other things, the preparation of performance ratings, for example, of the men who were in the Division. I had several discussions with him before preparing the ratings that year. But I said, as I did before, my recollection was it was while Donahoe was still section chief, but it could possibly have been in that period immediately following March + which is the date of my appointment as “Section Chief. Nx. Wallach. Let me ask you this. Is your recollec tion that Donahoe discussed a meeting with you in Belmont's office, or he discussed plans or suggestions that were being made, he had attended at the Pentagon? Me. Wannall. My recollection is it was a meeting in Belmont's office. TOP SECRET
2 2 < ® 4 Q 3 < 3 - 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 6.c. 20003 te 2 It was disseminated: to oo appare t- ly disseminated to six persons within the Bureau, a variéty of subject 5 matters. i Towouldilike.youto: read: over if the facts described in there ring any bent or were discussed with you. | | . Mr. Wannall. Do you mind if I make a note of the memo and what it is? Mr. Wallach. No, surely. I think it is a May 10, '62 memo. Mr. Wannall. Well, I was going to put down to. was addressed. Now, you would ikke for me to read -- Mr. Wallach. The last paragraph on that page, next page. (Yhe Witness reads the document. ) ‘Mr. Wallach. I realize it is not the cleanest of copies. Were you able to get through it? My. Wannall. I think I have the sense of it. Mr. Wallach. Was any of this information ever called to your attention back in 1962 or '63? Mr. Wannall. No. I have seen that memo in recent months, TOP SECRET
pUMAUR Lee Mate banabebtettees leat Gee Sh Z 3 € a 6 a & < B ALO First Street, 5.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 Wallach. As a matter of fact," I think ‘this .is*one (of the memos we discussed that you said, I, believe, that I think you said you saw in 1967 in your review. Mr. Wannall. I think it was: the basis of,.the memorandum I put together,. the memorandum to. the ‘AG.that was put. together in my section back in '67. Mr. Wallach. Do you know of any reason why this informa- tion would not have been brought to your attention as a person, I guess you would say; responsible for Bureau policy vis-a~ vis Cuba? Mr. Wannall. well, I can't say except that it was probah}, very high level, closely held information, handled onaa need to know basis, and a decision must have been made that I did not need to know. In May of ‘62, Donahoe, who was fully. cognizant of the activities with respect to Cuba, was working directly in Mr. Belmont's front office from which you said before, I was passed over to go to the unit Ghief who would have to be involved in the thing. I can only say that that probably was the reason for its not having been. Mr. Wallach. I might say that Mr. Donahoe has testified. he did not know at this time. Were you ever in contact directly with anyone out at CIA about Cuban matters at any time, 61, '62, or ‘63? Mr. Wannall. I don't recall being in contact. I was TOP SECRET
d 2 4 @ é 6 i € B 410 First Street, SE., Washington, O.C. 20003 fae aiaiae he feeguenteet Ook up contact with any. other officers during. that , period, | nor ‘on Cuban matters at any time that I can remenber.. Mr. Wallach. - Were ‘you aware that the. CIA had. a: station that they were operating down in Florida? Mr. Wannall. Yes, I was very much aware of that. Mr. Wallach. Was there a liaison set up between the FBI and that station? Mr. Wannall. Yes. “It was rather shaky to start with, but the Attorney General sent about 16 of us down to Miami in about March of 1963, to the best of my recollection, and whilelI was there, I learned that the liaison between our office. and the CIA operational office there was not the best. Mr. Wallach. Why were you sent down? Why were the 16 men sent down? Mr. Wannall. It was at the time that some anti-Castro Cubans took a vessel, a mother vessel with some smaller vessels aboard, to Cuba, and they put a detonation charge in the bow of a smaller vessel, and set it off so it would go into Havana Harbor, and this small ship with the detonation charye in the nose struck a soviet vessel, and it almost brought about an international incident, and the Attorney General had about 16 officials from Washington go to Miami on a Friday evening ~- I think we arrived about midnight -~ and the next TOP SECRET
3 > ¢ & é (] & € E AlG First Street, $.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 “ging what action: might be taken to’ restrain the ‘anti-Castro ‘Cubans from engaging in such. type activities. Mr. Wallach. Were they officials other than FBI. personnel? “Mr, Wannall. ‘Yes. . a Mr, Wallach. “can you recall who: was there? “t realize you probably won't recall everyone. Mr. Wannall. Well, I remember from the Department, Walter Yeagley was there because I roomed with him that night. I think from CIA the gentleman was Desmond Fitzgerald, if I recall correctly. There were representatives also whose names I don't recall from INS, a couple of the military agencies, I think probably the Army, perhaps Air Force. It was a group made up of representatives of various Federal agencies, and I was the only representative from the FBI. Mr. Wallach. Was the Attorney Gene¥al there? » Mr. Wannall. No, he did not go down. General Carroll of the Air Porce arranged for the transportation down and Wallach. Did you meet with the Attorney General be-ur} you went down? Mr. Wannall. Yes. Mr, Wallach. Did you receive instructions from the Attorgy General? -Mr. Wannall. Yes. He had. representatives of these TOP SECRET
4 > € & 4 ) & « 8 410 Flest Street, S.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 organizations, at least one, and that the President | was quite concerned over the problem that had been generated Py: this “group to. go down on «ies tee a and- try | to make. vaone decisions as to what action could, be taken for the ptrpose ‘of eliminating this type of activity. on the part of the ‘anti- ~Castro. Cubans. Mr. Wallach. At that meeting with the Attorney General, do you recall who else besides the persons you mentioned were present? For example, was Mr. Helms there? Mr. Wannall. I can't say for gure that Helms was there. I don't think I knew him ut the time. I would not have recognize him. There must have been 40 people at the meeting. It was a very large meeting. | | Mr. Wallach. Did you know Desmond Fitzgerald before you met him in Florida? Mr. Wannall. No, I met him on the plane, Mr. Wallach. How was he identified, or what was your understanding as to the area he was involved in with CIA? Mr. Wannall. Well, CIA did have a post in the Miami area which, as I understand it, was for the purpose of carrying out intelligence gathering activities directed against Cuba. Hx. Wallach. ‘In other words, you are saying that they TOP SECRET
“used that post to gather intelligence information from inside cuba? core, L. o Mr. Wannall. From what I was told by our liaison man ~~ and I had no discussions directly with CIA on this, was that the CIA station in Miami operated just the same as any CIA station abroad, but it was not able to be located in Cuba, ‘therefore it was located in the Miami area. . Mr. Wallach. Was it your understanding that they had capability to gather intelligence information from inside Cuba, that they had sources, assets, etc., inside Cuba? Mo Mr. Wannall. Well, I wouldn't say my understanding. feel, from some of the information that. came from CIA, it must have originated inside Cuba, so I would assume they did have WARD & PAUL ' Bee i: Me. Wallach. And that was your understanding in '62 anu sources there. - . , 1963. . Mr, Wannall. I would say yes. Mr. Wallach. What was the outcome of the meeting? can you tell us what transpired at the meet ing?:. Mr. Wannall. I think the principal thing that was accomplished was that the anti-Castro Cubans that time were an alien status in this country, and they were issued notiti- cations that if they should leave the United States for the purpose of enyaginyg in forays of this type, they would be SiO Fiest Street, $.€., Wasnmengton, O.C. 20003 excluded from re-entering. TOP SECRET sgh atid B28 ot a ake
2 3 < Ly 4 i) & « 3 410 First Sicaet, 5.£., Wasrngton, B.C. 26603 “government agencies, governmental ‘agencies had packed ‘this Cuban group, be it the military or the CIA? Mr. Wannall. No. I would say it was my understanding that the Government was very upset ‘over the activities of this group. (Pause) Mr. Wallach. At any time that you were at the Bureau, -did you have any knowledge of the fact that the military was running operations targeted at Cuba aside from the Bay of Pigs? Mr. Wannall. ‘The military? Mr. Wallach. Yes. Mr. Wannall. I can't recallaany such knowledge coming toa my attention. Mr. Epstein. [bia the Bureau ever run any counterintelliyugce operations directed at Cuba, counterintelligence, in the early ‘505? WY Mr. Wannall. Well, your term counterintelligence, Mr. Epstein. Mr. Epstein. Defensive action. Mr. Wannall. geo the way of trying coffiverce defectors, =—fS) developing double ayents gainst the Cuban U.N. mission, eventing the sabotage of some department stores. in New York in November 1462, yes. We engaged in counterintelligence | operations of the same type that. we would engage in with TOP SECRET
P) 3 € & a i>] & @ Ld 416 First Street, 5.£., Washington, O.C. 20003 od ‘dn1963;: bid the Bureau have sources within the Cuban consulate in Mexico City in '62 or '63, do you recall? Mr. Wannall. I don't recall whether we did or not, not to my knowledge, : . | Mr.. Wallach. Do you recall the name Silva ‘Duran? © Mr. Wannall. Yes, I have heard that name. Mr. Wallach. She was the person in the Cuban consulate I believe who met with Oswald. I'm asking you if you have a recollection as to whether : or not she was ever a Bureau source or asset? Mr. Wannall. I don't have any recollection that she was a source or an asset. I wouldn't necessarily know the name,- because from reviewing our material you know that we mention our sources normally by serial number and the names are kept in one place. So I don't connect Silva. Duran as having been an FBI source. Mr. Wallach. Before, when we were talking about the meeting that you had.in March of 1963 down in Miami that related to the anti-Castro group incident, is there a reason why Vince Nasca did not go to that meeting since it was my understanding that he was on top of the anti-Castro groups? Mr. Wannalli. Well, the decision was not made by me or in consultation with me. Iwas at lunch cne day, and thev sent out about ten clerks to find me, and I was told to repors TOP SECRET
4 3 < 7 4 5 & € Ed 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, O.c. 20003 “Mr J. Sullivan's: be in the AG's office that afternoon. “And from there 4t -snowballed. Mr. Wallach. You mentioned also before that at that meeting I think you said you became awara of a liaison relation ship betwean the field office in Miami and the CIA station in Florida? Mr. Wannall. Oh, ho. I was aware that we had liaison with the office down there. I learned at that meeting that it wasn't all it should be. In fact, the FBI was’ criticized very severely because the Miami office was precluded from disseminating reports directly to the CLA office down there. All of it came through headquatters, as a result of which there was a time lag in information being exchanged. Mr. Wallach. Criticized by whom? nr. Wannall. By representatives of the CIA down at that meeting. } Mr. Wallach. Who else was there besides Mr. Fitzgeralc, do you recall, from the CIA? Mr. Wannall. -Well, their local man was there. I don't recali who he was. As was the SAC of our Miami office. Mr. Epstein. Who was he, do you recall? Mr. gannall.- I think he was Wes Grapp. Mx. Epstein. Do you recall who the Cuban desk chief in Miami, of the Bureau? TOP SECRET
ate eels ee PE En WARD & FAUL 410 First Street, 5-E.. Washington, O.C. 20003 respect to the Mrs ppstein. (Did gome of that counterintelligence involve disruptive actions taken against cuban -- Kaku) Mr. Wannall. Well, I think -- this is a classified _interview? cae SO — rn Mr. Epstein. “Yes. Mr. Wannall. (z believe that one of the counterintelligenc programs was Cuban, was it not, 80 in that respect, yes Ku Mc. Wallach. Let's go off the record. (Discussion off the record.) M Mr. Epstein. (os any of those operations ever involve “Bureau agents going into Cuba or Bureau sources or assets going into Cuba at the Bureau's vequest? TAKA) Mr. wannai;{ves:. definitely no with respect to Bureau ayents. hesets whor.di ims fact ‘géte recall specifically extensive efforts ito’ Cuban Voreigne tani bez without success, as I recall, but it was a lony term thing where we had assets in this country wie were either related to him or friends of his family, against whom we made these efforts. u) | Mr. bpstein. And that was for the purposé of develovin: intelligence as opposed to disruption. . ag, WannaLl. That's right. wir. Wallach. Just 4 couple of more questions dealing ' | | TOP SECRET
He had the desk for many years. Mr. Epstein. Is he still with the Bureau? Mr. Wannall: No, he's retired. Mr. Epstein. Was he.at the meeting? Mr. Wannall. Imn't recall that he was. I remember SAC that I remember, Wes Grapp was there. Mr. Wallach. Does the name Ted Shackley ring a bell? Mr. Wannall. Shackley, the name rings a bell because I had seen letters with the name on it coming in from the Miami office, but whether he was the one at the meeting, I can't be sure. Mr. Wallach. Was your understanding of the liaison WARD & PAUL «of relationship with the CIA down in Miami that it was a one way street in the sense’ that they wanted information from the Bureau only, or was it that they were providing information Dee abetted ile hike obtained from inside Cuba to the Bureau? Mr. Wannall. Well, the information that they obtained came through headquarters, and I think that was the reuson why at the outset the information going to CLA was sereened emphasis by the ATtorney General to tey tou yet the anti-cusr:. situation under control. As a matter of. facet, the morning after we had the meeting in Miami, it was headlines in the 410 First Street, $-£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 press down there that a yroup of high level officials From ij . oo 7 through headquarters, but at that time there was a lot of TOP SECRET
WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 “0 show an: interest’ and an effort to do something that would eliminate the problem. Mr. Epstein. Were there any policy discussions relative to the possibility that some of the. anti-Castro people or “groups might. have been running U.S. Government operations ‘and how they were to be dealt with, or how that was to be determine: before any restraining actions were taken?. Mr. Wannall. At that meeting? . Mr. Epstein. Correct. ‘Mr. Wannall. Or otherwise. I don't recall any discussions. There were certainly none at that meeting. Mr. Epstein. Not at the Attorney General's meeting. Mr. Wannall. No. Mr. Epstein. Do you recall that issue ever arising” with the anti-Castro groups? Mr. Wannall. As I have said, I don't recall any discussions of this kind. Mr. Epstein. Not just at this meeting, but at any time. Mr. Wannall. Not at any time. Mr. Epstein. Were there occasions when there were cases that the Bureau began running, where at some point the Bureau became aware that it was indeed a CIA operation? Mr. Wannall. I chink there were cases where we came up a with an individual in whom we developed an interest later, arm: TOP SECRET
Mr. Wallach. Do you have any knowbadge, Mr. Wannall, in the time period. 1962 and 1963, as to ‘whether or not -- the <7 ; “f€trst question is whether or not the FBI was running any sort ‘of what ig called a COINTELPRO activity against the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. ; Mr. Wannall. Well, we had a COINTELPRO operation, and we did target in on the Fair Play for Cuva Committee. Tt was one of only about two organizations in the country that were openly pro-Castro. Mr. Wallach. Do you recall the nature of that COINTELPR¢ operation and the approximate data? WARD & PAUL Mr. Wannall. Well, COINTELPRO operation, I wouldn't say it was a COINTELPRO operation. As I recall, we did do a bag-job on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York, and it may have been after they moved out of their prem’ses. While i i { ; H ‘ ; $ | 1 1 | I am not sure of the facts, it’ seems to me that the idea - originated with somebody on the Hill. 1 can't recall who it was. Mr. Epstein. When was that? Wannall. Well, it was within this timeframe, I would beers tg Epstein, What idea are you talking about? | 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 Wannall. Of taking some action that would neutralize TOP SECRET _
vi Z 2 € a 4 a & 4 z &10 First Street, $-£.. Wasmington, B.C. 20003 in sOfar. as we have: ne documents relatiny te the actual black bag. job," we ‘do have docunents: showing that mailing lists and, photographs. and other documents ‘were obtained from Fair Play. for Cuba conmittea,, ‘which indicates _they were obtained in that manner. Additionally,. ‘T ehink we do have documents which relates to some sending of letters to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee to try to divide the two groups. Mr. Wannall. It is possible. I don't remember those, but it is quite possible. a Mr. Wallach. Do you recall whether the Bureau had any high level assets or informants within: the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and by thatII mean very high level. Mr, Wannall. ‘I cannot recall any. Mr. Wallach. What was your perception ~- this is prior tothe assassination of President Kennedy -~ if you categorize the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, what type of was it? Mr. Wannall. Well, it was openly a pro-Castro group. think they were engaged in collection of funds to send down no | Cuba for the purchase, reportedly, of farm equipment and thinus of that sort. They supported Castro openly. There wasn't a./ question about their sympathies. Mr. Wallach. Do you know if the CIA was conducting TOP SECRET
Dos cona [ould Dacha ata at 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 | WARD & PAUL: fort of operations agai: e “either in the United States or worldwide?” Mr. Wannall. I don't know. If I had found that they were conducting against the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here, I. think we would have been in touch with them-about it. ; fae Mr. Wallach. Let me get into one or two operational a3 ee things, and let's just use the period September-October 1963. ts wie If the Bureau was conducting an investigation and it turned out that they needed some information that the CIA ‘was. likely to have by virtue of its overseas operations, how would that information be requested, or would it he requested? Me. Wannall. Oh, I think so. We would send an indication and ask for it. | Mr. Wallach. Through Papich? “Mr. Wannall. It would be a letter. If it would be sensitive, he would probably deliver it, we would mark it by liaison so it would get in the right hands over there. Mr. Wallach. Would you have authority to send the communication yourself, or would you have to get approval for any communications that went to CIA? | Mx. wannall. ‘No, all communications went up the line as I recall. There was a period when sone name checks and routine goxt of things were initialled out at the section chiv: Level, but 1 would say that information of that nature would go up through channels: ‘That would be the normal procedure. @ TOP SECRET
4 3 < & é ig € @ s 410 Fust Street, $.€.. Wasnington, D.C. 20003 some other newspapers, and ask you gust to take a look at it. It is captioned Castro Blasts Raids on Cuba. Mr. Wannall. The. Times-Picayune? . | ‘(The Witness reads the document.).- Mr. Wallach, And supplementing that, let me show you a cablegram from Legat Mexico City signed by Clark Anderson to the Bureau on 11/27/63. tt is Cable No. 196, with specific attention on the last paragraph on the first page, and which continues on to the second page. And I might note for the redord that there Clark Anderson is essentially giving a Similar version of Castro's speech or interview that is referred to in the Times-Picayune article. (The Witness reads the document.) ‘Mr. Wallach. Looking at first of all the cablegram, can you tell if -- the initials are not the clearest, but do you have any recollection of seeing this cablegram? Mr. Wannall. . My initials are not on it. 1 don't recall having seen it. Mr. Wallach. Can you tell from that if unyone in your section saw it? | Mr. Wannall. well, the five here would indicate someon: in Division 5 did in fact see it.- Mr. Wallach. Which was Domestic Intelligence Division. TOP SECRET
It could have bean a-section other than ‘the one that I headed at the time. I will try to make out the name. Mr. Wallach. Well, don't speculate L£ you really ean't -- Mr. Wannall.- It would. be speculation, “ Mr. Wallach. Who in the period Septenber-october 1963 was most familiar I will say with Cuba, Cuban activities, Cuban counterintelligence activities and with all the aspects of ‘Cuba within the Bureau? Mr. Wannall. Well, those two phases were on different ‘desks as I recall. Nasca would have been familiar with the anti-Castro Cuban activities, and I would guess it was Ray Mullens who would have handled the proeCastro Cuban activities, 2 3 € a es . a. & < B although Iam not certain. Cotter was probably the unit chief. and would have been the: one through whom most of this material flowed, at least on its way up the line, not the incoming material. Mr. Wallach. Did you also have an extensive knowledge of Cuban activities? Mr. Wannall. I had a pretcy good knowledge of it, yes, ag section chief. | “Mr. Wallach. At any time, referring back to the New Orleans Times-Picayune article where Castro, among other. thin: : states we are prepared to fight and answer in kind. United 410 First Street. S.E., Washington, 0.C. 26003 States leaders should think that if they are aiding terrorist SECRET
; : ARE: plans to eliminat yu themsélves will “not 6 aate . And. Tustréss’ the words elimin te:.Cuban: ieadera." Were you aware at that time that the CIA was meeting with a high level Cuban official and plotting an attempt to assassinate. Fidel. castro? | | . Mr. Wannall. “I have no recdllection of being aware ef tha or at any other time, to my knowledge. | | ‘Mr. Wallach. I take it that you also would -not have been aware that on November 22nd, 1963, that a ‘poison pen was passed to a high level Cuban official by the CIA. Mr. Wannall. I read that in the paper recently, but I was not aware of that at the time. Mr. Wallach. Did you have the type of expertise with or) 5 < & 6 6 & ¢ Ed respect to Castro that would lead you one way or the other to be able to render an expert opinion as to whether or not his granting an interview by an AP reporter at a particular jocation, the Brazilian embassy, had any particular significancy’ i i Mr. Wannall. I don't know that my expertise is very | extensive in that regard. However, I do recall his granting interviews to a New York Times correspondent rather frequentl, after his ascension to power. I think the Times correspondent’: name had the name Matthews in it. I don't xvecall whether thic t 1 was the name, the first name or the last name, but he did grant interviews. | 7 410 First Street, S-E., Washington, O.C. 20003 ; ir, Wallach. One reason I asked the question is because TOP SECRET
a 2 € ry Ci i] & « 3 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003 you wouldn't have’ knowledge of it What do you recall, may, I. ask thie, what, you recall ‘happening at the Bureau on the day of the assassination of (President Kennedy on Novenbér 22nd, 1963, ‘besides everyone being upeet and ete. igiven that you overheard, what instructions were “given. to you, i j i i i what meetings were held, ‘that type of (thing, that day and the iday after? Mr. Wannall. Was that on a Friday do you recall? “Mc. Wallach. Yes. i I realize again -- and I will stress for the record -- we tare talking about obviously a time period some 13 years ago, ‘and I am only asking for the best of your recollection. I am not trying to pin you down as to any facts. Mx. Wannall. Well, the reason I asked the day of the week ;is I have a recollection, we were probably in that weekend working on file reviews information. I was also on duty the i day of the funeral, which was probably a Monday, because I recall seeing the funeral procession pass the gorner of the building where I was working. So we were involved in reviewing material, probably name checks, but what names they were I cannot recall. But a good portion of the manpower was hand lis. that during the weekend and the day after that. Br. Wallach. Have you ever heard the name Carlos Lechuga? TOP SECRET
ad 2 @ * a 6 = < 2 410 First Street, $.€., Washington, D.C. 20 33 oJ. Me. Wanaall.- It's possible. in what: context: right away ‘Mr. Wallach. Do you know whether he was in the Cuban consulate in New York or ithe 'U ited Nations? i f. “does mean ‘something to mé, but I-have difsicuity! rédging up the background. . Mr. Wallach. What do you recall in terns ‘of meetings and strategy discussions as to how the investigation would go forward? taking place, or were you involved in any? Mr. Wannall. Which investigation? Mr. Wallach. - The investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy. | Mr. Wannall. No, the investigation of the assassination was not in the Division and I wasn't privy to any of the discussions. Mr. Wallach. Were you at any time tasked with any requirements in that investigation or any people under you” tasked? | | | Me. Wannall. I can't recall that we were, because even the phases of it that spilled over into our Division were har i in another section. | Mr. Wallach. Which section was that? Mr. Wannall. That was the Espionage Section. Mr. Wallach. Was that Branigan's section? TOP SECRET
ates at oa cr 2 RE 8 cE DSB tn tht + Yam 410 First Street, $.€., Washington, 0.C. 20003 2 3 < Ly 4 o « € g is that not the case? Mr. Wannall. Well, thereewas an Oswald aspect in the assassination. You'd have to say that there were. interests overlapping because Branigan did have the Oswald case and he handled the Soviet aspects of it, yes. . . | Mr. Wallach. I understand that, but in Mr. Branigan's section; in Mr. Branigan's shop, the persons there, their area of expertise was the Soviets, ia-that. correct? Mr. Wannall. Right. We had in our section at that time a case which had been opened about five or six months before, perhaps more recently than that, on the Fair Play for Cuba _ Committee which appeared to have been Oswald himeelf down in New Orleans. So that aspect of it was handled by one of the supervisors. | Mr. Wallath. What I'm asking, really, Mr. Wannall, is whether at any time during the assassination investigation your unit or your section, the section that was most familiar with: Cuba and Cuban matters within the FBI was ever tasked to conduc: © certain aspects of the investigation, or certain operations or tasked to go to certain informants during the course of the investiyation? Mr. Wannall. I -think we probably were. I feel we probats: were, but I cannot recall any specific guide when you mention TOP SECRET —
Tel hTationie, ina et Lc ete Te Ete a eee aR nn ae errno nem a WARE & PALE 416 First Street, $-E., Washington, ©.c, 20003 pinning down details with espect to Oswald? recall ever receiving instructions | to conduct an investigation ‘to determine: whether’ orvnotrthere, was. Cuban involvenent in the “assassination of. President Kennedy? Mx. Wannall. I think we probably aia, ‘but: what Le was Iocan't recall. Let me see if I can give you.a few thoughts on it. (Pause) Mr. Wannall. WhilelI can't say specifically, it is quite possible we may have been takked to contact Cuban informants because there -were indications of a connection betweeh Oswald and the Fair Play for .cyba Committee. Mr. Wallach. Let me read you a portion of a cablegram from Mexico City dated 11/25/63, No. £82 and 183. It is from Legat to the Director. It says "Ambassador here" -- and that's Ambassador Mahan to Mexico -- “feels Soviets much too ophisticated to participate in direction of assassination at President by subject, but thinks Cubans stupid enough to have participated in guch direction, even to extent of hiring | gubject. If this should be the case, it would appear likely that contract would have been made with subject in U.S. anu purpose of his trip to Mexico was to set up getaway route. Bureau may desire to give consideration to polling all Cuban TOP SECRET | | | | | |
é 3 4 & 4 4 & 4 zB 210 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003 ' Now, beneath that ds ‘the notation "Not desirable. Would serve to promote rumors." And that. notation was by Mr. Cotter. Do you recall whether or not the Bureau ever -- and I'm not asking whether it was your belief -= do you recall whether the Bureau ever went out and contacted its Cuban sources, eithe in this respect or to gee if there was Cuban involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy? Mr.-Waffall. JI can't recall that they did. When I answered your question before, I said I couldn't recall if it was done. ‘It would be a normal step. That is why I used that aS an example. I can't recall thattthe sources were polled, Mr. Wallach. Who, if that requirement had been levied, who in your section would have handled? That would have had to have been made through your section, would it not? Mr. Wannall. ‘Yes, I think we would have been given that assignment by the agent who would have been coordinating the investigation of the assassination. It would have come to thu section and gone back to the Cuban unit, possibly Cotter or Owens or Cotter, Most of our informants were in the anti-Castrs field, and Nasca would have been most knowledgeable about that. | Mr. Wallach. Where is Mr. Mullens now? Is he still at the Bureau? Mr. Wannall. No, he passed away two years ago. Mr. Wallach. Insofar as the other gentlemen you mentioned, TOP SECRET
WAR & FAUL 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 ‘ Ceca ae d¥so: farjag.: your recollection is, there was never any pollitig of Cuban gourdes.¢ Mr. Wannall. No, they would have the best knowledge of - Mr. Wallach. Do you recall ever ddacuasing with anyone whether or not a separate investigation shoiild be" conducted to determine whether or not there was Cuban involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy? Mr. Wannall. No, I don't recall any such discussions. Mr. Wallach. Do you know why immediately after the assassination of President Kennedy persons like Al Belmont Bill Sullivan never told you about the assassination plots CIA had been running against Castro? Mr. Wannall. No, 1 don't know that. Mr. Wallach. Were you at any time aware of any queries to the CIA for them to conduct an investigation to determine whether or not the Cubans had been involved in the assassinatior of President Kennedy? Mr. Wannall. (Not that I can recall, and those probably assassination. Anytime you have a case of that importance, it would take precedance over anything else. would have been handled over in the division handling the i Mr. Wallach. Well, the division that was actually hand}: | the assassination case was Al Rosen's division, the Criminal Investigation..Division. They did not, as I understand it, hav TOP SECRET
Piedad tmnt tee ALO First Street, 5.E.. Wasnington, O.C. 20003 2 > < & 4 6 & < z “that correct? Me ery dary: Mr. Wannall. That is correct, but if they should | make aadecision that there should be. a polling of sources or a contact with CIA, they: would, have” handled that. ‘themséives. The -would probably have consulted with: the’ agents. on: they had any questions about it. ‘Mr. WAllach. Do you recall ever learning that anyone in the Criminal Investigative Division had been told that the United States had attempted to assassinate Fidel Castro? Mr. Wannall. Tf don't know, ‘t don't think I had any knowledge of that myself at the time. Mr. Johnston. Mr. Wannall, let me show you @ letter to Mr. Rankin from Mr. Hoover, Mr. Rankin being General Counsel of the Warren Commission -- and I don't see a date on our copy of this letter. There it is, June llth, 1964, and it marks you on distribution of the letter, and let me ask you if you recall receiving that letter, a copy of that letter? (The Witness reads the document.) | Mr. Wannall. This letter was prepared in my section, anid I am certain that I either saw the letter going out, or “a copy of the letter which was designated for me. I. do not see that I -- yes, my initials are on here as having approved the outgoing letter. TOP SECRET
WARD & PALL. y RBUIEK TASK FORCE -REVIEWE 2 RELEASE IN FULL to. ite being sent? | Mr. Wannall. That's right. Mx. dohnston. This letter deals with a ‘Warren Commission request on data on Fair Play for Cuba,. an organization ‘called gure, the DRE, Alpha 66, and the 30th of Novenbi “movetient. All of those groups would have been within’your jurisdiction: Mr. Wannall, They were handled in-the. section I headed, yes. Mr. Johnston. ~Do you'know who was the. author of this letter, who drafted it for Mr. Hoover? Mr. Wannall. well, I can tell from theiinitials, are not LLA? Mr. Johnston. Yes. Mr, Wannall. Lambert Anderson. Mr. Johnston. He was -- Mr. Wannall. He was a supervisor who was handling as I ecall the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Mr. Johnston. First of all, reading this letter, would yo. r=) o have also seen the note on it? tee) o Mr. Wannall. Oh, yes. be Mr. Johnston. And let me call your attention to’ one roe) WH centence in the note which is, "The Commission is being refers ies aes. to CI& and the Department of the Army.. CIA has or has had an operational interest in the DRE, Jure, and the 30th of TOP SECRET boa Cl RELEASE IN.PART » [iTOT AL fy
ce fae iD as Rb a la oh tad Lae te f 3 € a @ 8 & < 4 410 First Street, S.€., Wasmington, O.C. 20003 ‘Rot. know of the Army™4 o 2 pe-with certain individuals in the SNFE. | Now, you previously testified. this mo Does thia refresh your’ recollection about Sted Mr. Wannall. “poes that gay an interest in the group? I'm sure the Army had an interest in individuals because they were training some of these people. Mr. Johnston, Itm-sorry, interest in certain individuals connected with SNPE. Mr. Wannall. I will have to say it doesn't do anything fox my recollection. I answered the question the best I could. Having had that read to me by you doesn't give me the benefit of any more material. It is obviouslfrom that that the Army did have an interest in the SNFE. M Mx. Johnston. SNFE. Me. Wannall. I'm not even sure what that is. Mr. Johnston. The Second National Front of Escaibray. Mr. Wannall. I've heard of that. Now, we probably had something on it in the section. | Mr, Johnston. And indeed, this correspondence mentions names of individuals as members of SNFE. In fact, those individuals mentioned here were in Dallas, Texas. They were residents of Dallas, Texas, and I ask you, given that fact, does TOP SECRET
{ | } ‘ 1 1 ; WARD & PAUL ALO First Street, $.E., Washington, 0.0. 20003 “taken in this” ‘correspondence? Mr. Wannall. “In what context? ME a Johnston. in the context of, in. connection with the Anveatigation of president Kennedy’ 3 assassination, the: names “of these individuals in Dallas. who: were ‘members of. SNFE. had come , out. Mr. Wannall. No, it doesn't because this is az reply to the Commission for information from our files. Now, we, as I said before, r' ™m pretty sure we would have had a case on the Second National Front of Escambray, Fair Play for Cuba Committee and others mentioned in there which undoubtedly would have preceded the investigation, per se. I don't have any recollection of any specific person connected with that group or any other whose identity came to our attention as a result of the assassination. Is that your question? Mr. Johnston. ves. But I'm saying in this correspondence, these individuals did come up in connection with the assassination investigation. Mr. Wannall. It would seem so, and the Conmission Obv Lousd expressed an interest in them and asked us for what we had on them. nr. Johnston. Let me also ask, attached to this letter are 224 pages of reports from the field on these groups, and TOP SECRET
A410 First Street, $-E., Washington, D.C. 20003 F 3 € & 4 6 & é. B . thesa: deal. with Cuban groupsy. either pro-oor anti-Castro groups, and my question is, would you have: reviewed these reports prior to sending them: ‘80 the ‘Warren ‘Commission? Mr » Wannall. Not necessarily because the notecon:-the yellow ‘indicates. that. thie, reports had been: reviewed by. ‘Belmont and Rosen, and Rosen‘ s division had ‘the case, and Belmont, of course, was quite interested in the entire matter and was coordinating it. And I knew that. I can't say yes or no. It is unlikely that I did, simply because it had been reviewed on a high level and a decision had been made they should get it. That would be the only reason for my reviewing it, to make a decision against its being furnished. Mr. Johnston. You would not receive that correspondence and be asked whether it was an accurate or fair portrayal of these groups. Mr. Wannall. No, because this correspondence would have ‘been the results of investigations we had conducted, regularly submitted by investigative reports or by letterhead memos, and there would be no need for me to review that and say this was a fair portrayal of the investigation. It would be submitted by the field, and then sometime prior to the date of this letter would have been reviewed by a desk man, put in a file, and possibly, almost assuredly, disseninated to’ various branches within the Executive Department. TOP SECRET
2 3 < bs . 4 ) « < z 410 First Street, S.€., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 Mr. Wannail. I would not have personally reviewed that. Mr.Johnston.. Would your section have ‘done ‘that? Mr. Wannall, Possibly. Mr. Johnston. Under your overall jurisdictional responsi- bility. Mr. Wannall. Normally if a division is handling something and another division has an interest, the handling division would take the responsibility for review, but would surely put my name or the name of my section or 5 or the Division name on it in order that the supervisor in our division would have an opportunity to look it over. | Mr. Johnston. Do you interpret <~- we do not have the Warren Commission request, but do you interpret this response to the Warren Commission ~~. I'm sorry . (Pause) Mr. Johnston. That references a May 20, 1964 letter fro the Warren Commission to Mr. Hoover, and let me read to you TOP SECRET
! ; | } ft 4 i t a x WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 ‘that we named, " outside of. Texas during the ‘year 1963 with particular reference to activities in Chicago, Michigan, ‘Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, New York, Puerto “Rico and San: Francisco." In other words, the Commission is specifically requesting the FBI to. ‘furnish information on these named groups and a general summary of their activities during the. year 1963, and I ask (you whether you would have been consulted as to whether this response met the request, in your knowledge of Cuban group Mr. Wannall. 1 will have to explain the possibility that these -- in fact, it says, there is a list identifying 46 memoranda and 15 reports. Now, if the memoranda were typed in my section, I would have reviewed the memoranda as the function in connection with sending mail up. the line. The reports I would not have reviewed. I would not have been . personally consulted as towwhat should go in there, but I would have the opportunity of anything that was actually typed of | looking it over, and chances are I did on those 46. But you understand from what you have said there, this was a request for information on these individuals and groups in. areas outside of Dallas. Mr. Johnston. I'm sorry, I read only paragraph 3. Para-~ qraph 2 is a summry of activities throughout Texas. TOP SECRET
vashesie oStet dy Eat Wisieakaaiuea tices. 2 2 3 < ’ 4 fo] & 4 Eg 410 First Street, 5.E.. Washington, 0.C. 20003 to try to “give you the specifics. Mr. Johnston. Weld, the document: Antfront of 3 me. Wannali. I'm talking nbout something and. speculating. | Yes, in fact all of these are dated from May 27 up through June 4, They were prepared, however, by our various offices. They were apparently not prepared by our Division. t would not have reviewed these. Mr. Johnston. Would you have had anybody in your section review these? | | “Mr. Wannall.— Yes, they would have been reviewed by the man who prepared this memorandum. | | Mr. Johnston, Lambert Anderson? Mr. Wannall. Yes. In fact, the mechanics would be this. The request would come in from the Commission. our supervisor would have gotten the request. It could have come down throu: me. And he obviously sent out to the Field Offices, conveyed to them the nature of the request and asked for letterhead memos responsive to it. These memos would have all gone bach to him. He would organize them, review them for typographic.! errors, for substance, for contents, and attach them all to en outgoing letter. TOP SECRET
WARE & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 supervisor in charge, who was Ray Mullens, and he initialled “them since they had been reviewed. for approval by ‘Messrs. “Belmont and Rosen. ‘Mr. Johnston. Then I guess what t'm asking ultimately is | do you know of any steps or of any procedures that were taken ‘to ensure that this information’ being provided to the Warren Commission was in fact a true representation of the FBI holdin on these groups? Mr. Wannall. Well, I think the responsibility was fixed on the field offices to furnish the information that they had ’ in their files. I don't know of any other procedures that coulc have been invoked for that purpose, there being no reason for taking any special precautions,in that regard, to my knowLédge: Mx. Johnston, Are you saying that headquarters of FBI | had no responsibility for assuring that the Warren Commission got an accurate portrayal of these groups? Mr. Wannall. No, I'm saying that the men who would have reviewed them would have been knowledgeable of these organiza- tions. _ Now, I cantt say that Anderson was the expert on all these organizations, but I see that he went through his } it as having been .a fair rendition or a correct rendition of |! what knowledye there wus at headquarters on the thing. I weit ye together without someona having gone over it knowledeably, an have no reason to believe that this was just taken and put | i TOP SECRET
F] 2 < & a i] & < 8 410 Fiest Street, S.E., Wasnington, G.C. 20003 For example, some of the groups would have been. “handled by Nasea. It is. quite possible, he was in, the. unit, he: may to look at the » incoming communications by y which these letterhead memos were transmitted, and the initials on: “there would show-who-actually reviewed it. Mr. Johnston. Let me ask specifically in the case of Tampa, Florida. There is a report on Tampa, Florida, Fair Play for Cuba Committee activities. . That repore which originatda from the Miami office does not mention other activities of Fair Play for Cuba Committee in Tampa which were in FBI files at the time this report was prepared. Who made the final decision, exclude other information in the Mr. Wannall. T don't know. Mr. Johnston. Did you take made those decisions? “Mr. Wannall. I rather doukt by Mr. Belmont and Nr. Rosen, it as to whether to include or Bureau files? steps to assure that somebody it, since they were reviewed was handled on a pretty high level. I'can't recall having had any specific discussions on this particular piece of mail with anybody. I can't say I didn't, but I don" t remenber any where I did. Mr. Johnston. And if Mr. Belmont and Rosen wanted the TOP SECRET
LES a nAATE Maen PAB Rea BIN Ghat LS AM & PAUL 410 First Street, SE... Washington, D.C. 20003 Mr. | Wallach. Where was Donale Es Moore?. what was his “position at this time? “November of "632. Mr. Wannall. ‘Branch ChiefeIngpector, ‘Inspector- -Branch Chief. Mr. Wallach. So he was below you? Mr. Wannall. No, that's above. Mr. Wallach. That's above you. Mr. Wannall. Yes, he initialled this on the way up. His initials are on here. Mr. Wallach. He was number one man to the number two man ‘to the Inspector, whatever they call it? Mr. Wannall. No, actually they didn't delineate between the two branch chiefs. at the time, the number one and number two. le would have been responsible directly to the Assistant Director. Mr. Wallach. Which would have been whom, Sullivan? Mr. Wannall. '64, that would have been Sullivan. Mr. Wallach. ‘ALL right. Let me again read to you froin a document that we haven't gotten a .copy of, and August docuncn: TOP SECRET
F 3 < & & 6 & < Eg 416 First Street, S.E., Wasmington. 6.c, 20003 noted | atthe request of. nieorney Canora we. are’ gonducting ‘investigation of allegations that U. s. Hoodlum elenent and _ Cuban exiles are involved in plan to assassinate Castro and ‘other Cuban: leaders." - Now, stopping there, do you reca?l ‘that! dnvestigation or anything about that investigation in 64? Mr. Wannall. I should because I would have: ‘been ection chief at the time and Nasca would have been working under me, but I can't say that I can independently recall it. Mr. Wallach. Do you ever recall any discussions about “hoodlum element" being involved in plans to assassinate Fidel Castro. at all, up until '67? Mr. Wannall. No, during this timeframe I cannot recall any discussions. Mr. Wallach. Continuing on in this document it says "We are aware, in addition, that Attorney General reportedly discussed this matter with White House, which reportedly — concurred with requested investigation. it is possible that above-mentioned plan to assassinate Castro is identical with one we have under investigation." The above-mentioned plan was the use of the high level Cuban. | Now, Mr. Nasca obviously in 1964 knew about all this. bo you recall knowing about it? Mr. Wannall. Yes, now, yes, and you know, we had numer. TOP SECRET
“panarys but it was | probably « one of ‘several that we had. : Mr. Wallach. This. is referring to above-mentioned plan vis the plan that! he mentioned that. CIA: wad: sing): AMLASH, “and I take it that in)'64\we have h him again,*later in. ‘64, “referencing it, and your best recollection is that you ao not “recall aver being informed of ite | Mr. Wannall. i can't recall it. I can't say that I was Mr. Wallath. Aside from such requests as Mr. Johnston has showed you, specific requests from the Warren Commission, were you yourself personally involved in "any aspects of: the Pt] 2 < 8 C] 6 & « B ; * eo: ; investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy? F } jee oat | Mr. Wannall. Personally involved in the investigation? , | Mr. Wallach. Right. Aside from possibly reviewing name. checks.or anything like that. Mr, Wahtall. My personal involvement, of course, would have had to have been supervision of something. This is what you have reference.to. Mr. Wallach. Right. I realize you wouldn't have been out in the field. Mr. Wannall. You are reaching back so far, I would have J | to honestly say I can't recall. I can't discount the possibit: 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 that there was something, but I have no recollection of anythin). TOP SECRET
PBS iat anna iat ce eetteemeeti Ne ae te ee ELE gaia eo als oe 3 3 4 & 6 rs f q 2 410 First Street, 5.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 ie fs erically Papeciticel "giving: instructions that something be. done in’ the Cuban: area to determine if there was Cuban involvement in the assassinatio of President Kennedy? Mr. Wannall. i can’ ‘te call up anything: of. that. nature. Mr. Wallach. We know. from the. docuinentation that’ ‘certain senior Bureau officials were aware of. the fact that the CIA had been attempting to assassinate Fidel Castro. Additionally, it would seem from the documents that we have reviewed over there and requested further backup documentation on, that certainly the same bureau officials,.and.in '64 even Mr. Nasca, were aware that the CIA was on the very day of the assassinatio passing a poison pen. If don't know if he was aware in that great detail, but they were aware that in November of '63 the CIA was actively attempting to assassinate Fidei Castro. Can you give me any explanation as to why this information would not have been made available to you as the person charged with responsibility in the Nationalities ‘Intelligence Section, and one of the persons who was most familiar with Cuban activities? Me. Wannall. No, I can't give you any explanation. would say it should have been called to my attention and possinl[y | was, but I just can't recall if it was. It would be normal for a man in the division in my section to have called information of that nature to my attention. TOP SECRET
2 3 < & 4 a & « 8 410 Fiest Street, S.£., Wasnington. B.C. 20003 ‘ for a fact that it was. dearned that. castro was aware: “in detail of each step in the CIA‘ 8 plots against ‘him, and, cin fact, ther was, ‘some: evidence developed, AntelLigence: ‘evidence that indicated ‘that he might’ have ~ ‘attempted. sone ‘sort of retaliation be it absolutely not factual, not concrete w= IT want to. ‘stress that -- would you in any way, looking back, have directec ‘any different type of investigation, or would you have felt that that type of an investigation could have: been only con- ducted by the CIA and have gone to them to ask them to conduct the investigation? I'm going ~~ what I'm getting at very frankly, Mr. Wannali is that we have an investigation where 4 heck of a lot of ‘Bureau evidence, your agents did thousands of manhours of work tracing down every possible piece of physical evidence, every possible ramification in certain areas, whereas in the Cuban area it seems very frankly that almost nothing was done, and what I'm erying to get a-grasp on, what the senators. are concerned about, is why. Really, I'm asking if you can shed any light on that at Mr. Wannall. You asked me if I had known about this would I have directed something be done. It's difficult sitting here now to tell you what was TOP SECRET
WARD h PAL 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, D.c. 20003 to there. whether there was an allegation they. were , going ‘down to assassinate Castro, I can't recall, and I think that was handled on the Cuban desk. 50 there must have been an. allegation that would tie in with the Cubans. To my knowledge, anything that seemed should be checked ou was checked out. As an example, everyone who had any ‘connec- tions whatsoever, either direct or indirectly with oases: which came to the attention of the Bureau aaa result of the assassination was interviewed, and during the course of that, one of my men was asked why he didn't have Oswald on the Security Index, and I made it very clear to him that in my opinion if he thought he should have been on there, he should have called it to the attentic1 of the supervisor handling the case. So we weren't sitting in a removed area unconcerned. were trying to do whatever seemed logical. Mr. Wallach. 1 don’ t mean to argue, and I don't mean tc ry to look back with hindsight, and I realize that a lot of knowledge that I'm talking about you cbviously did not have «: TOP SECRET
2 3 « & 4 a & € 8 410 Fiest. Street. S.£., Wathington, o.c. 20003 wiuatan Sullivan knew, just be it the “enc: ‘that the “Mafia wag used because they had ‘high level sources inside Cuba to ery to ‘kill Fidel castro; and the fact that’ suiliven ‘and - Belmont knew the names, of those Mafia: figures). ‘and ‘the fact that these articles were at least called, these threats were called to Sullivan's attention, and certainly the attention ~~ we can't speak to Mr. Belmont, he is i411 -~ an explanation as to why, for example, the Bureau did not go out and talk to any of these people or talk to the later, identified in '64, Cuban personages who were involved in the CIA's attempts to assassinate Castro, particularly because they did have access to Castro -- cne of them was a member of his entourage, immedia entourage ~~ to determine if there was any Cuban involvement in the assassination. | In other words, it appears to me as a layman that we have this huge counterintelligence machinery that was never called into play ‘in the Cuban area, and what - -I'm trying to make, and what we're trying to make here is a determination as to why it wasn't called into play, and maybe at the time there was no evidence that was called to your attention that would lead you to believe that it should have been, but the investiyation that was conducted appears to have been sort Os a backtracking of Oswald, I mean, as to where he was, what he
2 2 « & 4 a @ € B ALO First Street, $.£., Wainingtan, O.c. 20003 united States. That just doesn't appear to have. been ‘done from the records, and while you say you have a ‘peiief. that some sources were contacted and other things were done in the Cuban area, the records seem to belie that. And I'm really asking, do you have any =~ I would like to have it for the record, any specific recollection of anything like that being done. Mr. Wannall. What I said was not that I had the belief that the sources were contacted. I said that would have been a normal thing to do, and you have a notation that consideratio: was given, and obviously it was turned down. Now, you have mentioned to me that the, knowledge that Belmont and Sullivan had Mr. Wallach. | Well, you can see that for example -- and we have other documents; but I just showed you the May 10, '62 Hoover memorandum as one example to show you that they were at least aware of that at that early date. There is extensive documentation and followup that shows that they had a continued awareness of it. Those Mafia “plots” terminated TOP SECRET
A 3 € a 4 6 € € Ed $.£., Washington, O.c. 20003 410 First Street. Until recently ‘we aia not know that: the Bureau was 3 aware of. ‘that plot. ‘But, some. “documents, which we “don't have here yet. which | r would ‘be’ tea * to. show you if’. we. had them, indicate rey “that. the. Bureau was: aware. of. that’ ‘plot and in.ald Likelihood it was aware of it. an the fall of 1963 before the “assassination. Mr. Wannall. Was that the one out of ‘Chicago that I have | a recollection of? ‘Mx. Wallach. No, this is the one.of using the high Level Cuban to assassinate Castro, the CIA's ~~ I want to be careful the GIA's using a high level Cuban official, and if that is in fact the case, the Bureau could very easily have put together what we have put together and seen ‘that there are some very coincidental remarks by Castro after meets with that agent, and I'd rather not go into the whole thing here, but that there would be some reason to believe -- I want to be clear I have no evidence that in fact it was such the casc, but I'm just asking, based upon the information, I don't. have ab understanding of why a separate button wasn't pushed. Even in the soviet area it appears that a lot more was gone than in the Cuban area. _And what I'm trying to “get at, whether -~ was there any reason for that that. you can recall. Mr. Wannall. No, I can't. 1 don't -- my recollection fi TOP SECRET
J: a € a 4 a « € z 410 First Street, S.E., Wathington, O.c. 20003 exptained some of the allegations that were made -I can t give you any explanation | as ‘to why if it was not done, or there wasn't some reason for not doing. ite You said Belmont and sullivan had knowledge of these things, but | I don't know whether they were also knowledgeable that somethinc hadn't been pursued and specifically resolved. Mr. Wallach. Well, we have not seen that from the documents. Mr. Wannall. Well, I don't know either. 1 have. to say that. there is a possibility of that. | | Mr. Wallach. And the CIA has told us that they ian’ t conduct the investigation because it was the FBI's job. Mr. Wannall. Well, I am not too familiar with the operations of the Commission, but it is. my understanding at least that the Commission itself got material and sent Leads to our Division 6 to pursue. Wasn't all of this, the CIA, the FBI and any other aspects all funneled through the Commission? | | Mr. Wallach. Well, dearly in the evidence we have developed, there is no evidence that the assassination plots TOP SECRET
eae Shae ERIE i 2 é 2 @ a a a & < bg 410 First Street, $.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 “information on certain ‘cuban n groupe. with documents which, | in retrospect | when: we look ¢ at the “purporely misleading 5) Fane to. But Mr. Johaston knows more about the cuban situation than I do. What was your understanding of -- or let me ask you this. pid you in any way participate in a supervisory capacity in the Bureau's investigation in Mexico City. You are aware that Oswald had contact with the Cuban consulate down there about some five anda half, six weeks before the assassination. Mr. Wannall. I didn't participate in the supervision of that. . Mr. Wallach. Were you at any time made aware of the fact that ~-- I'm sorry, strike that. Do you know what Department 13, Line V of the KGB is? Mr. Wannall. My recollection is, it is the sabotage and assassination section, is it not? Mr. Wallach. Yes. Were you at any time informed that one of the persons witil whom Oswald had contact at the Soviet embassy was their chiet man in that department? Mr. Wannall. I.don't recall hearing that. That was prob! TOP SECRET
Ria tiaad foun theta A NSN gn eee me d 3 @ & a a £ € 8 410 Fist Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 whether Mr. Wannall. I gon't recall that, ‘nO. Mr. ‘Wallach. this ds a memorandum dated 11/27/63 from yourself to guiiivan aT realize that someone ‘else. wrote it here. I don't even know ‘Lf your initials | are on it. My question really doesn't go to the substance of it except for the fact that it appears that initially you were somewhat tangentially, at least, invot ved in the Mexico City investigation and then your name doesn't appear in any subsequent correspondence or documentation. I was wondering 4£ you recall any reasons why that might have been the case. (The Witness reads the document. ye Mr. Wannall. 2 probably saw a copy of this. I didn't see the original. It would be unlikely that I didnit read the tickler that would come in. | Mr. Wallach. Do you recall at. any time having discussions as to what would happen if it was determined that there was Cuban involvement in the assassination of President Kenney or what would happen Lf the Buredu had missed something in its handling of the Oswald.case prior to the assassination? Mr. Wannall. What would happen if we had missed somethin or if Cuba had been involved in the assassination? | Mr. Wallach. Yes. By way of background, the fact is maue TOP SECRET
fact that the Investigation was not ‘stepped: up. after Oswald was in contact with certain forelgn ertabLishoents, in Nerico “ehty, but it also. goes to other questiona “Index, etc., and he stressed continu nay throwsh | his memoranduin the embarrassment that had been caused ‘to. the Bureau by. this, and in one memérandum to Mr. betioach, there was & possibility of the fact that the Bureau was going to be blamed for the death of President Kennedy. , | Now, with that sort of background, and my very 1imited knowledge of the Bureau, I was wondering if you recall any Ps 3 < & 4 o @ < g discussions as to what would have happened if indeed the Bureau had missed a very salient point about Oswald that was turned up during the investigation. | Mr. Wannall. I don't recall any discussions of that natury. | ore : 7 . ‘ 1 do know that Mr. Hoover was very upset with about a4 dozen and a half men who had any connections with’ the cases that had ramifications on the assassination investigation, and toos disciplinary action in several cases against the men. But thar had nothing to do with having missed a salient point. It had to do with the han@ling of the Oswaid case principally. ur. Wallach. Well, we have Mr. Gale's memorandums to S10 First Street, S-E., Wastington, O.C. 20003 rt wr. Tolson in which he talks about disciplinary action. bree TOP SECRET
any event, under the then current dissemination procedures, it is my understanding that. that: ould not have ‘leds to the notifi- cation of the Secret service in any event. | Mr. Wannall. Not then. Mr. Wallach. Right. What I'm talking about is really whether or not the Bureau had in its two interviews of Oswald after he returned from the 2 3 < cy 4 & @ < 8 Soviet Union, or in not putting more emphasis on the Oswald case, had missed, for example, a meet that he might have had - with a known KGB or DGI agent in New York City, or had missed a lot of what -happened in Mexico city while he was down there. It seems the only evidence they have of what happened when he was down there was from the tapes received from CIA and Eres, its follow-up investigation. | But what I'm saying is that since you had Oswald the subied: of.a security case and Mr. Hoover having demonstrated his dislike of having the Bureau embarrassed, whether there were any discussions in the Bureau about what would happen if it 410 First Street, 5.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 turned up that something had been missed, that the Bureau show TOP SECRET
2 3 € a 4 i) « € zB 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 Me, ne. Wannall..(Wods in the negative) ‘Mr. “Wallach. Let me read you one exanple that is: stated ain a ‘memorandun ‘and ask. you if this was ever discussed with you. The Bureau by letter to tha Commission indicated that “the facts did not warrant placing a stop on Oswald's passport as our investigatio disclosed no evidence that Oswald was acting under the inétructions or on behalf of any foreign government or instrumentality thereof. 4 "Although it is proper at this time to take this public position, it is felt that with Oswald's background, we should have had a stop on his passport, particularly since we. did not know definitely whether or not he had any intelligence assignments at that time." “So, in other words, we have internally senior Bureau officials saying that while we took this public position and | represented this to the Warren Commission, I don't feel like this, and this memorandum was signed off on. by four or five other senior Bureau officials. TOP SECRET
d 2 € a 4 e @ 4 3 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 9.C. 20003 Mr. Wannall. . Well,.Z,wouldn't. have: seen. that memo: because wiiee ‘administrative’ action think you probably ‘recognize from your. extensive’ inquiries into slaveau procedures and policies at the tiné ‘Mr. Hoover was there,| it was the thing to de to tell him, well, this is the public) position that you're Looking for in something, is something that you can be criticized for. ‘Mc. Wallach. I just have a couple more questions. Turning now to 1967, we have been informed by the Bureau officially that the assassination case is still open, that it has been open, and any significant leads, or any léads that come iin are still followed up. Is that your understanding? Mr. Wannall. I was not.aware of that. When were you informed of that, Mr. Wallach? Mr. Wallach.. Oh, at all times it has been my understands: in fact, there is still an agent assigned to the case. His name escapes me now, IL remember he struck me ag a very capabi-’ young ayent, and that the case is still open, the assassinate: case itself. Mr. Wannall. I was not aware of that. TOP SECRET
é 3 € 8 @ i] € < 8 410 Fiest Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 faction. Mr. Wallach. Well, Bureau records I'm sure would reflect which section you were chief of. — But within either section you Y would have shad responsibitit for Cuban matters in 1967? Mr. Wannall. It's my recollection they were returned to the section, having been removed in May of '65, returned about August of '66. Mr. Wallach. Were you at any time -- well, let me read you -- briefly go over a couple of documents with you. By letter dated February 13, 1967, Mr. Rowley of the Secret Service informed the Director that he had met with Justice Warren, and that Justice Warren told him that. Drew Pearson's friend, Edward Pierpont Morgan, who was a former Bureau agent, reported to him that Bobby Kennedy had organized a group that went to Cuba to kill Castro, and that all the group were killed or imprisoned, except one person who escaped, and that subsequently Castro decided to utilize the same procedure to kill President Kennedy. In any event, Rowley came into the picture because Morgan TOP SECRET
PI 2 € & 6 2 & 4 B 410 First Street, S-E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 . Mr. Rowley. ; (The Witness reads the document.) Mr. Wallach. Let me also ask you this. In the February 13, 1967 letter, which is just an incoming letter. from Mr. Rowley, the Bureau stamped it Secret, and then it used this form of dissemination slip, and I atk ycu if you during your years at the Bureau have ever seen a slip that uses the term "eyes only" on it for. internal Bureau memorandum where no information was provided by a third agent or a third agency file, or at any time, really. Mr. Wannall. Eyes only was not normally used by the Bureau. I can't say it was never used in cases other than this, but normal procedure would not be to use that as an indication of the fact that this should be handled ona very confined basis. Mr. Wallach. I'm sorry, your understanding of eyes. only TOP SECRET
a 2 q a € a @ € 8 20003 410 First Street, S.£., Wasningtos, &. de is. addressed, to be. “opened by. ims: Now, we ‘have used communications in double envelopes, to be: ‘opened by. addressee only, but even on’ the. inside. communicati ‘we-would notoput eyes only. Is that responsive to the question? Mr. Wallach. Yes, it is. I mean, well, it would indicate to you that it was a very sensitive matter of some sort? ‘Mr. Wannall. Well, from having received communications with that legend on it from other agencies, I would assume it “to be a very sensitive matter, yes. Mx. Wallach. Well, this eyes only was put on a. routing slip internally in the FBI, emanating from Mr. Hoover ' s office. Do you ever at any time recall -~- and I realize you! ve seen thousands, in fact millions of documents, but do you ever recall seeing an eyes only document emanating from Mr. Hoover's office? Mr. Wannall. I would say that there have been other docu- ments of that nature, but very infrequently. Mr. Wallach. Generally are they extremely sensitive security matters or extremely sensitive matters? Mr. Wannall. You're asking an opinion. I would say in my opinion yes. Mr. Wallach. Do you recall ever being informed of the TOP SECRET
Pj 3 @ & 4 9 « < z 416 First Street, S.E., Washington. B.c. 20003. “Mr. Wannalls which was used asa basis for my letter? Mr. Wallach. Well, I was going to ask you that; ‘riean, separately, independently, before. wa. ge “ig¢dn. February ‘Yours memorandum. ig 'a ‘March: we're talking about. “Mr. Wannall. Weil, no, I didn't wee this: particular information that came in, to my best recollection, and x don't. recall having heard the information prior to my preparation of the letter. | . Mr. Wallach. Do you have any information as to why -- and I now show you a memorandum dated February 15, 1967, from Rosen to DeLoach, information relating to Cuba, possible assassination attempts against Castro, retaliations by Cubans against the President Kennedy would not have been referred to to your unit? Mr. Wannall.. I can only say it Looks as though it was handled on a very discrete, limited basis, and that possibly is the reason I didn't. | Mr. Wallach. Let me show you who else had knowledge it, of this February memo, February 13, "67. (The Witness reads the document.) Mr. Wannall. Well, DeLoach, of course, his position was such that he would be knowledgeable. Rosen did have the TOP SECRET
aren this. Fate & dnute ‘Yes It starts with a Mw but it's “not Anitéatiea by ney at to the best of my being able to make this, ou a clearer copy ~~ Mr. Wallach. No, that's it. Mr. Wannall. It looks as though it was initialled for gomeone whose name began with a W. Now, whether that is Wannat tI can't really say. a 2 € e @ 8 & 4 8 Mr. Wallach. Would it be Wick? Mr. Wannall. It could te Wick. In fact, it looks more: as though it is Wick. It's a shorter name than Wannall would be. ‘Mr. Wallach. Right. Mr. Wannall. Well, Wick, of course, received a copy of the communication itself. Mr. Wallach. Well, this in essence rehashes it, but what I would like to get some understanding of is internally oD tdi ecient et Glee te anc ale Sadat a tentnmmane maaes as corer cane within the Bureau why this matter would have been referred for 410 First Street, $-E., Wasnington, 6.C. 20003 response to the General Investigative Division or into the Criminal Division, Mr. Rosen's division as compared to the TOP SECRET
a 3 @ a é a & € 8B 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, &.C 20003 10 il 12. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 investigation of ‘the importance of: the. Kennedy / ngsassination ‘would take precedence over. anything. else, and the. gaptton on “the « communication,’ & a3: I recall,’ “Assassination: of: ‘ennedy, and he. was the one. who ‘WAS - oe -Rosen's division was the one where the investigation itself was being coordinated and handled. I don' "te think it was unusua? that it went to Rosen. | Mr. Wallach. Well, do you recall anybody ever making inquiries of you as to whether or not this information that Morgan was alleging was true or not? Mr. Wannall. I have no recollection of anyhody making any such inquiries. Mr. Wannall. Let me give you two memorandums dated March 6, and let you just review them along with an article that was written by Drew Pearson, the Washington MerryGoRound which appeared on I think it was March 6 or 7, I'm sorry, I'm ‘not positive. Additionally, 1 don't believe it appeared in the Washington newspapers. Let me just give you these three documents and ask you te take a look at them. I think those are the ones that we reviewed when we were talking at your office, or the first two memorandums were. (The Witness reads the documents.) TOP SECRET
a 3 4 a 4 8 « < Eg 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, ®.c. 20003 just priefly, please. (The witness reads the. document... Mr. Wallach. © rT. realize. that, migh be auetioult, for you “to-make out. I just want. you, “to, get, the gist of ite Mr. Wannall. All right.. If you have questions that I haven't covered, I'll refer to it. Mr. Wallach. What.I would like to get from you, Mr.. Wannall, on the record, is an explanation as to what precipitatqd this March 6, 1967 memorandum. Mr. Wannall. That is shown by a notation at the bottom of the second page, I think, by Mr. DeLoach, the Attorney. General had requested this information. Mr. Wallach. Is that Mr. DeLoach's handwriting, as best as you can tell? Mr. Wannall. Yes, I think it is, I think it is DeLoach's handwriting. Mr. Wallach. Do you recall beLoach coming to you?: wir, Wannall. No, the normal way for this to come down would be through the Assistant Director, probably a call, and then a call to me by the Assistant Director, or by Don Moore, or by someone over me. : pir. Wallach. Do you recall how it aid come about? Mr. Wannall. No, I don't. As a matter of fact, when 1 TOP SECRET
: 3 @ ® 4 6 & 4 8 830 First Strect, S.E., Wathington, O.c. 20003 & 9 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 25 a request from the AG ‘which was conveyed t to us. Mr. Wallach, Were you ever told why the AG wanted the information?,. Mr. Wannall. Now Mr. Wallach. I take it you were never told what precipi- tated his request. Mr. Wannall. No. As a matter of fact, the way that it is worded in the first paragraph, in accordance with instructions, would indicate that we just had instructions to gather this stuff together, in communication with the AG, and this was put on to explain to the Director or to remind the Director Mr. Hoover-why this communication had been put toqether.. Mr. Wallach. Now, the subject is Central Intelligence Agency's intentions to send hoodiums to Cuba to assassinate ‘Castro. Do you recall receiving any broader instructions than that | that the President, through the. Attorney General, actually wanted to know what if anything the Bureau had on U.S. attempt to assassinate Castro? Mc. Wannall. I don't recall any such. Mr. Wallach. Do you recall your instructions as being limited to the use of hoodlums to assassinate Castro, or you really don't know. - TOP SECRET
a a @ & a a & € 8 SG Fisst Streat, SE., Waihingion, @.c. 20003 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Wallach. What + Tm, getting at te £08 the recent “wnleh we have: not: yet seen’ ‘there appears | extensive ocuméntatio in Bureau files that the Bureau had knowledge of other CIA attempts to assassinate Castro than those that made use of the Mafia, and I wonder if you recall any discussions at this time as to just limiting this request to the Mafia. Mx. Wannall. I don't recall any discussions of that nature. Mr. Wallach, Can you recount for us as best you can did in order to respond to this request? Mr. Wannall. Well, I signed it out to one of the supervisors who prepared the communication. Mr. Wallach. GCM? Mr. Wannall. Yes. Mr. Wallach, Whose name is what? Mr. Wannall. George | C. Mohr. Mr. Wallach. Now, do you know how he went about preparing the communication, just From reviewing files? Mr. Wannall. That would be the only means that he would have & doing it. Mr. Wallach. Do you know if Mr. Nasca was involved in the TOP SECRET
Z 2 € & Cl] io] € < 8 _ 410 First Street, S-E., Wasnington, 6.c. 20003 it to me;: that this | took place over, a A weakend. The Attorney the’ weekend there Manali. THat, information was passed on to ma by Nasca. He recalled ‘it, before I retired. “phat: may. be ¥ where it originated. Mr. Wallach. Was there a reason why there was nothing included in this memorandum about the fact that a suggestion as made in Belmont's presence | ‘by some general that the Mafia - I'm sorry, I think you didn't know if it was the Mafia. Mr. Wannall. ‘No, I did not. Mr. Wallach. Well, I withdraw the question then. Wag there any | discussion in your section amongst the peop]: who, including yourself, about whether or not the CIA attempts. to assassinate Castro using the Mafia were related in any way to the assassination of President Kennedy? Mr. Wannall. I can't. recall any such discussions. Mr. Wallach. Do you recall any connection at all between or any mention now of whether or not Morgan's statements and inquiries precipitated this review? | Does that ring a bell together? Do you recall Morgan said certain people in the underworld? TOP SECRET
@ 2 € & 4 a & € _8 _ B10 Fiest Street. SE. Washington, 0.C. 20003 and get J it outi I think had we + known that, we would, pat right in the first ‘paragraph, — based on the Attorney. General's indication the President was interested in this, or something of this nature. Mr. Wallach. Let me just give you a little scenario of what happened after this memorandum was prepared, and I take it, disseminated on or about March 6, 1967. On March 17, 1967, according to a memorandum from DeLoach to. Tolson, DeLoach was instructed through Marvin Watson that the Bureau had to interview Edward ‘Morgan. Mr. Wannall. He was instructed. by Marvin Watson? Mr. Wallach. The Bureau had no inclination on its own to interview Mr. Morgan, and no one has been able to tell us why. In any event, Mr. Watson indicated that the President wanted Mr. Morgan interviewed. He was subsequently interviewed! by two ayents from the Washington field office. The whole process was run out of Mr. Rosen's division, none of which persons had any Knowledge of the validity of the claims that the TOP SECRET
2 3 < & 4 i) « < B 810 First Streat, SE., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003 and atated, among other éhings, that. his elients were. underworl figures. It was a matter of public record at that, time : he was. representing Hahew, ‘and Rosselli... Tt: goes, on. t Mr. Morgan further explained. that his ‘elfents Cel “he ha “noted that he, Morgan, was employed by” more: than ‘one of those involve obtained this information concerning Castro's dispatch of these assassins from feedback furnished by sources. in place close to Castro who had been initially placed there in effecting the purpose of the original project. | . Now, going back, the feedback that he went on to gay was” that -- well, he went on to say that his clients were involved in the project that had as its purpose the assassination of Fidel Castro» Elaborate plans were made, including the infiltration of the Cuban government, placing informants in key posts within Cuba. | | The project almost reached fruition when Castro became aware of it and arrested a number of suspects. By pressuring captured suspects, he was able to learn fully of the plots against him, and decided, "it that was the way President Kennec. wanted it, he too would engage in the same tactics.” Castro thereafter employed teams of individuals who were dispatched to the U.S. for the purpose of assassinating President Kennedy And then it went on to say that Morgan further explained TOP SECRET
a 3 < & a. 6 & @ B 410 First Street, $-E.. Washington, 0.6. 20003 “dispatch in ‘place “$0 at: that “aattlyoa have Morgan making ‘an. allegation that. Castro retaliated, making an allegation ‘that there were high Level sources in the Cuban government, around castro, who were placed there by. government agencies, and that they had gotten feedback that Castro had sent out teama to retaliate in kind against President Kennedy. He even stated in the interview that his clients were aware of the identity of some of the individuale who came to the United States for this purpose, and they understood that two guch individuals were now Living in the State of New Jersey and then he went on to say ‘he knew where in New'Jersey they were living. The Bureau did absolutely nothing with this information. It was never followed up, and it was passed on to the President. and. to the Attorney General. So I'm not saying that the Presi: or the Attorney General did nothing with the information alse. Was this ever made known to you, I mean these facts in 1967? At least Morgan's allegations ever made known to your Mr. Wannall. I saw Morgan's allegations during the course of the collection of this material, I think, by Cassidy. TOP SECRET
a 2 € @ & a & < B 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, B.c. 20003 Mr. Wallach. .I think Z met him in your office that day. Mr. Wannall. That! Ss wight. I don’ t recall having seen it at. that. times “In transmit ‘ting it to the president or ‘the AGE, was there. any indication that we would do nothing more unless requested, or do you know? Task that because normally that is what the Bureau would do. We were responding to a request of an official in ‘the white House to conduct an interview. Mr, Wallach... Mes. Stiegal, who was’ the President's secretary, ‘encloscti information which I believe would be.of interest to Mc. Watson, informatio: containing enclosure which is revealed on page 4, has been furnished by CLA on a strictly highly confidential, need to know basis. That is information that was added on to the Morgan interview saying yes, indeed, we know there were assassination plots against Castro. . In view of this, it was requested’ that it be handled-on most restricted basis. This information has also been furnis:~ to the Attorney General and the U.5. Secret Service. After taken away from the classified enclosure, this document becomes unclassified. So, in answer to your question, no, and the letter to Rowley and the Attorney General, no, and from what we Looks! at in the Department of Justice files, it apparently went te TOP SECRET
d 3 € 8 é a € « 3 810 First Street, S-E., Warningtor, D.c. 26003 Rever made - aware of the Morgan. \ aliegations at alle Wannall. © r - cannot recall that: r was, “Wallach. - Weil; I don't. think 1 have, any further ‘questions. I thank you very much for being fully cooperative. rT realize that .in some Of these questions. it! 8 been 12 to 15 “years, and I understand that. it is, of course, @ given. I sometimes can't* remember. two. or three months back. And I think you have been most cooperative with us through the course of our Committee. Mr. Wannall. Well, at the time we had the Fair Play for “Cuba Committee, case in the section, it was one of 2700, and if you interviewed me on the others, I would have the same difficulty, but I have done the best I can in trying to remember this for you. Mr. Wallach. Thank you. very much. (Whereupon, at 12:30 o'clock p.m, the interview above-entitled matter was concluded.) TOP SECRET
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