480-10131-10329 JFK Assassination System Date: 10/19/20 Identification Form Agency Information HSCA AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER: 180-10131-10329 RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY AGENCY FILENUMBER: 014727 Document Information ORIGINATOR: HSCA FROM: SHAW, ROBERT T. TO: TITLE: DATE: 05/16/1978 PAGES: 78 SUBJECTS : CIA, FILES CIA, METHODOLOGY SHAW, ROBERT T., TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIPT TO MEXICO DURAN, SYLVIA DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION: Secret RESTRICTIONS: 1B CURRENT STATUS:  Redact DATE OF LASTREVIEW: 02/01/2003 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Box 5 v9.1 WW 50955 Boclda: 3227772714 Page 1
TASCIONE: amt em a en l-l i | i EXECUTIVE SESSION 2 | TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978: a | | 2 5 | U.S. House of Representatives, 5 | Subcommittee on the Assassina- ~ | tion of John F. Kennedy of | ¢ 7 | the Select Committee on i ~ | Assassinations, | > : ! 2 33 | o | Washington, D.C. | a d _ The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:40 p.m. \ i = 0) i = | in room 3370, House Annex No. 2, 2nd and D Streets, S.W. Ba | Present: Michael Goldsmith and Dan Hardway. <> = 2 | = i Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Reporter, would you please swear z | in the witness? f | The Reporter. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony = | which you are about to give will be the truth, the whole = | truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? i Mr. Shaw. I do. | | = IF é a i: | , | | HW 50955 Bocld: #2277714 Page a ALIEZSSON REF OCRTING COMFEAAY
2 4 3 vs) = 5 ) i wt a § ~ oy , a ? od S a = ™ ay 3 a ~ ie Se a = tl cars = ts Mé « cong = @ 5 I: £ ~ = cS 14 ee ‘ rong x oe = ie ay = po wT = = vs 2 1a a = 13 ~ oad Ss 29 41 Ao fe aot wi) Fa Pa 3 4 ae ad 23 ~ “4 ae 2 aon HW 50955 DBocld: 1-2 : TESTIMONY OF ROBERT T. SHAW ; Mr. Goldsmith. Would you state your name and address for the record? ! Mr. Shaw. Robert T. Shaw, | Fairfax, | Virginia, 22031. | : | Mr. Goldsmith. What is your present occupation, Mr. i Shaw? | Mr. Shaw. I am/| lwith the Department of State, | | General, Central Intelligence Agency. Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I handed you earlier a copy of a letter from the Acting Director of the Central Intelli- gence, Mr. Carlucci, to the Chairman of this Committee. Tt corresponds to JFK Exhibit No. 94 in the Committee's hearing record. | Have you had a chance to read that letter? | Mr. Shaw. I readjit justchow. | Mr. Goldsmith. Do-.you. understand it? | Mr. Shaw. I understand it. : Mr. Goldsmith. | I also would like to hand you the Committee's rules and resolutions and ask you at this time ' to read Rule No. 4 to yourself. (Pause) Mr. Shaw. I read it over. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that? ae of. reer! ALDSEHSON RESORTING COMMFaNY 32277214 Page 3 but my actual-occupation is Inspector, Office of the Inspector |
A 3 a x = a = ow ! ” P wt fo} ~ ~ , o. a 7 ~ os a eS ad oo Ot . a Q 7 a = iG S a g _ ty pe ba A “. = se i g = on a BZ ota mB 4s Zs tw <= = ts Bone > “i wT m= & ig nm = 19 ~ c = 720 “4i EAA iP eo fae 22 oN nd i$ 3 rm + fa HW 50955 DBocld: Mr. Shaw. I understand it. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand that you have a right | to counsel? Mr. Shaw. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you waive that right to counsel? | | | Mr. Shaw. I do not need counsel. oo j . | Mr. Goldsmith. Do yourunderstand that, under the Committee rules, that you have a right to receive a copy of the statement you are going to give us at this deposition? Mr. Shaw. I should hope so, to check it for accuracy. Mr. Goldsmith. However, by virtue of the arrangement | 4 i 1 | | : | that the Committee has worked out with the Central Intelligence | | Agency, we have been asked to request of Agency employees that | they waive their right to receive a copy of the deposition | for their own retention. By that, I mean we would certainly | be willing to grant you access to the deposition, to correct it in any way necessary, but the Agency has requested that we ask you to waive your right to receive an actualy copy of the deposition.. Mr. Shaw. I have no problem with that.. | Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you.. For the record, I would like to say that the Committee's, . mandate is to investigate the assassination of the President. | i The scope of the mandate includes who killed the President, was there a conspiracy? We are also required to evaluate
1-4 \ the performance of the investigative agencies, specifically a 4 the FBI and the CIA and to evaluate the work of the Warren 3 Commission. o> 4 | Do you understand that as well? | = | Mr. Shaw. Yes. | r 7 Mr. Goldmsith. Prior to coming here today, have you: | S 7 | discussed what your tesimony is going to be with any CIA 6 3 employee? | ; | Mr. Shaw. I havesnot, exceptcto tell them tnaat I was. | : te going to tell*the truth when I got ovér here. | : | Mr. Goldsmith. In terms of discussing the substance of | : m : your testimony? | a = 1 | Mr. Shaw. None whatever. ! 2 1a Mr. Goldsmith. Have you discussed with any CIA employee, = ig | past or present, who either has been interviewed by the | 3 14 Committee or has given a statement under oath,to the Committee, . 1T what questions were asked of him or her? : E ‘a | Mr. Shaw. I have not. - is We Mr; Goldsmith. Are you here today voluntarily and ! = = 0 | without subpoena? | | . | ce 7! Mr. Shaw. Yes. | & pa’ 22 : Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, how long have you been WORKING | a! under State Department cover? ! ee 7 Mr. Shaw. Since approximately the date I came aboard, | because I was promptly sent to the Department of State for er ar re CEPaeyT oe fon oo 1G ew . SON REPORTING COMPARY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 5 ALSERSS
training. That would be March, 1948. 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Would your State Department file, if 3 reviewed by a member of this Committee, indicate that you were @ 4 actually a CIA employee? | | 5 5 | Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. . 5 4 : Mr. Goldsmith. You do not understand how the cover | g 7 arrangement would work between the Agency and the Department é a : of State? | 3 : Mr. Shaw.. I have never had anything to do with the id | setting up of such cover. It would well be that there might | : if i be some sort of an indicator or flag, or something in that | 12 file that would indicate to a person who knew the ropes that | © = iz I was not bona fide.. | 2 1d Mr. Goldsmith. Would there be a personnel file on you : : 13 at the Central Intelligence Agency? : Z i) Mr. Shaw. Yes. | ; 7 Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of procédure, in terms of : Z 1a how you get paid, do you get paid by the Department of State? ! 2 13 \ | Mr.-Shaw. No. I am under, at the present time, nominal 5 29 | state cover. I actually, as. far as the Department of State i pee ol Is concerned, resigned over there in 1973, I believe. At r a 22 the present time, I am paid by the Agency. 23 Mr.@Goldsmith. When you were working under cover, were a a4 \ you being paid by State at that time? | | Mr. Shaw. Yes, I was. : WW 509455 Docld: 32277214 Page 6
Roay Mr; Goldsmith. Are you familiar at all with the 63 literature that has been generated by the assassination of iy For example, I have never issued a visa. I have issued Hl] 3 the President and the work done by the Warren Commission? 4 | _ Mr. Shaw. Very little. I just noticed that green book | 2 5 there a minute ago. I have never read that thing.. i i A ‘| Mr. Goldsmith. Book 5, for the record, of the Senate | = 7 | Committee Report. | S a Mr. Shaw. I have seen copies of the Warren Commission | : § Report in various places around the government, but I never ! : 1G read it. | = 1 Mr.. Goldsmith. When you were working with the State | . : 2 | Department in other than a nominal capacity, what was your | ; 14 Mr. Shaw. My last title was Special Assistant to the ! : is | Ambassador and First Secretary of Embassy | g i Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever work as a consular officer? “ oo Mr. Shaw. Yes, I did.. : : ig | Mr. Goldsmith. When you worked as a consular officer, | é ' i : 13 | were you required to fulfill both responsibilities as a con~ | 5 29 | sular officer and as a CIA employee? | a ' Mr. Shaw. To a certain extent. ! La | | BE ps is 7x a2 + 23 tl a passport for another consular officer who accepted the a 24 application and I would be on the road in northwestern Mexico and issued the passport to the American citizen concerned. HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 7
1-7 I have done a modicum of what we call protection and welfare work. This would usually involve being again on the road, stopping in, for example, in a prison to see if there was. an American citizen there, to find out what the story ge dab LS b> as I think that it has to do basically with the permissive-| ve] 5 » 2 3 i|-was, why he was there, how he was being treated and that sort ow | . . i N . = if a | of thing, and relay that information to the consular when I ij . a 4 < 7} got back. : | m yy 5 FI * t Font i} ; i ey 2 i | = ‘| co . _ ta if cad ame! | = i z = oe | = twa = | a = 1G ~ c a H S 29 : a a itll 4 wo : . i f i Be ness, or lack thereof, of the operational environment that. > tsa you are in. “In Mexico, it-was not necessary to spend much SECRET ALDERSON REFORTING COMFAAY ‘ i BW 450955 Docld: 32277214 Page 6
aad wt = 5 pan 2 ~ t wd 2 wa io} ~” a ' od 9 oe é Sd a = a tod ~ . s ro) ¥ o =~ %¢ coy = ot] F a = 1s le = m tA ~ ts a tS > = é = wn 17 ie :. = 18 a) z= 15 ~ o a S 20 n> vs 34 Woe da af ON 23 @ ; or pie) HW 50955 Doclrd 132277214 Page 9 ALDERSON time, at least not for me, on cover duties. Mr. Goldsmith. How long have you been working for the Office of the Inspector General? \ Mr. Shaw. Since August of 1976. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you have any responsibility in the writing of the 1977 Inspector General Report pertaining to the CIA's handling of the investigation of the Kennedy assassination? Mr. Shaw. None whatever. ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Has anyone ever interviewed you before pertaining to the Mexico City situation as far as it pertained to Oswald? Mr. Shaw. Yes. It was about that time of '76, some- body. interviewed me in the CIA Headquarters building, and I think it was a Senate Committee, but I amnnot sure. They had some files. ee Mr. Goldsmith. Did you give your testimony under oath at that time? Mr. Shaw. No, not that I remember. Mr. Goldsmith. Did any CIA person ever interview you concerning Lee Harvey Oswald's. activities in Mexico City and the operations of the Mexico City station? Mr. Shaw. I would have to qualify that. We discussed the subject, of course, in Mexico City at the time of the assassination, or immediately after the assassination. Sigel RESORTING COMePAAY
1-9 But I cannot recall that I was ever called in anywhere ! and asked for my account of what transpired after the assassina- ! . j tion. | 3 | | : | _ Mr. Goldsmith. Headquarters never asked you to come in | Es 5 and give a description, for example, of Oswald's activities, | 3 § | to your knowledge, in Mexico City in 1963? | g 7 Mr. Shaw. No. I would not have known anything about S a Oswald"s activities anyway. | : 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Are you familiar with the photograph e and which subsequently turned out not to be a picture of Oswald? t | ‘ } | 19 | that was taken in 1963°that was reportedly linked to Oswald | | i | ; } identified by people at the station in. Mexico City as possibly e being an American-appearing person. I do not know that it { | I Mr. Shaw. I am familiar with a photograph that was | i REPQRTEPS AULD ENG, CAST INGTON , re -was every considered to be Oswald. | | | i | “ 7 4 I think, if I remember correctly, what they were doang--- | = | e iy Mr. Goldsmith. We will get into that. My question is, zs | wn it i e 9 did anybody from Headquarters ever ask you about that. parti- e ' | S 29 | cular photograph or the circumstances surrounding it? poms US Mr. Shaw. Negative. ; — ; rd ie Mr. Goldsmith. Did anybody from Headquarters ever ask | ihe) 4.3 you to give a statement or report as to the manner in which Bn fare a ils SA , ba the surveillance operation in Mexico City were underatken in | / yh ue i } 1963? ir dee . aT Aye — Sibgel HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 ‘Page 10 ALSESSON REP
Mr. Goldsmith. Where were you serving in 1963? td Mr. Shaw. From about the middle of April, I was serving t I considered him to be, from my standpoint, a competent, | | | I | 3 te 4 in Mexico City in our station. : = § | Mr. Goldsmith. How long did you stay in Mexico City? | a 4 Mr. Shaw. I stayed there until September of 1966. i = 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Station Chief in Mexico 2 z  , | City? 3 i Mr. Shaw. Winston Scott. ~ 1 | Mr. Goldsmith. Would you give us your assessment of | g | his competence? re Syn | Mr. Shaw. Competence. It is difficult, because I was G S44 i not looking from on high. He was a brilliant. man. He was = il Kota f reputed to have a doctorate in mathematics. He had an uncanny | Ets | ability to remember numbers and he carried in his head the z té | file numbers of what we called P-files in Mexico City. P | ~ a i moot stood, I think; for personality. A P number usually was four, = 13 | digits or so, maybe five digits. = 13 | And he carried all these numbers in his head and he could ~ 1 , . 5 39 | mark something for such and such a file in black ink -- he 41 | always wrote in black ink -- putting the number down. He had | o> f2/ 22! a very good memory for numbers. ; 23 \ Winn and I were friendly. We were not close. We were | H : i @ 24 i not on the same level at all. | | t }
effective, Chief of Station... | | | 2 | . Mr. Goldsmith. What type of file-keeping system did { 3 | he have in effect, without asking you to describe it in detail? i 4 | By that, my question is directed towards his thoroughness and : Es 5 comprehensiveness. | 5 | | Mr. Shaw. I would say that he probably had one of the , g 7 most -~ let me see -- complete file systems in being in the | S a | asoner. I think that he, my personal opinion is that he went | : 7 overboard, and we had so much stuff back in our files, it | : 19 | was hard to believe the amount of paper we had in there. | : | His tendency was not to rely on cross-indexing. If | a i $ a you have a document, this piece of paper means something to | o 2 13 you and you want to keep it and it has 15 names on it, he | = ef was quite capablé of setting up 15 files for the same piece | z é S| of paper. And we had a tremendous file room. : 3 a I often wondered if we needed that much paper. It was | ~ A 7 very thorough. Iam not a technician as far as managing | : ia | files, but I do know that the people who worked in the file i : “| were kept very, very busy. | : 5 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. Who were Mr. Scott's chief deputies? | Let me“rephrase the question. Upon which individuals did he tend to rely the most? Mr. Shaws He had one Deputy who-was Allen White. As far as reliance on other people, I would say he relied very heavily on Annie Goodpasture ~~ not in any way in a command HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 12 ALOSSRSON RE:
C, 20024 (202) 554-2345 ae ad ad tn cu a) p, SUELB ONG REPORTERS 1 | WASHINGTON, Ju, S STRENT, oo ing MA / Ne) < ie a nN k BW 50955 300 7TH aT: neg i Docld: Bg saa 3 ty | gunction, but as a Girl Friday. i ‘ i i | He also seemed to think rather highly of a former one-time) | . | FBt agent named George Monroe, i “Mr. Goldsmith. What about David Phillips? Mr. Shaw. Yes. Dave Phillips ran the what we called the CA side of the shop, covert action, mostly propaganda. I came to Mexico City with the understanding that I was going to head up the Cuban shop. Very soon after I arrived there, Dave Phillips was tapped -- it was while we were still in the old | Embassy building. He was tapped and named the new Cuban Office Chief. ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Did that happen in October '63? Mr. Shaw. I don't know. I do not remember. But it was inot too long after I was there, and I was asked, I think by Dave; I don't remember --= if I had any objections to continuing; to serve in Cuba. I liked Dave, I respected him. I did not feel that I was being hurt, hurt careerwise, to step back and I was very [interested in Cuban operations, so I did willingly, let us sayy neste command, if you want. to, of Cuban Ops and I served | | pave as one more officer. : Later on, after Dave left, a year or two later, I once | ty again took over the Cuban Ops group. Mr. Goldsmith. You were in charge of Cuban Operations at ‘the beginning. Then Phillips took it over at some point and ON REPORTING compancr ; ; 32277214 Page 13) 3 YP r Ue}
Pp 4.3 se wn = = “4 C2 ~ ’ va : ws 9 on ™ ' = a 7 ene co -~ o Fa) S Na , a 23 ? foal “ a = 'S S a S ame it pons ! a < = ? = 12 og = penne , = x ry eo em ot ae ia 2 \s = a iT = ~ 1, ‘ ig nm = O19 ~ Lond 7 S 30) aT DSR” fe ST , 4 ae af : nS we aS HW 50955 DBoclrd war oad te by bs sod . ; 1-13 | then, after Phillips left, you went back to that position? | Mr Shaw. That is right. Mr. Goldsmith. Our review of Agency records indicates that Phillips would have assumed that position on October of i i 83 Would that be consistent with your recollection? | Mr. Shaw. My recollection would have been, had you not told me this based on your review of the files, that it took know. Mr. Goldsmith. My questions are going to be confined, unless I indicate to the contrary, to the period up to the until the end of 1963, prior to the time that Mr. Phillips assumed the position of Cuban operations -~ Mr. Shaw. Chief. responsibilities, what did those responsibilities include? Mr. © -Shaw.<'.. Since it was not ratified to me upon my sidered myself to be one more case officer working against the Cuban target. Our basic interest was in effecting pene- trations of the Cuban government. What we wanted most of all were effective penetrations arrival that I was, indeed, Chief of Cuban Ops, I simply con-_ ! | { | | . . . i possible line-in to their communications set-up. i 4 SECRET ALSERSON RESORTING COMPANY 132277214 Page 14 : place earlier than October, but I do not. know. I really do not end of 1963. So, from the time of your arrival in Mexico City } { i } ' { i | | | | { | ! Mr. Goldsmith. Chief would be the word, and you had those { J of the Cuban Embassy, the Cuban Intelligence Service, and some
\ { Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963, did you manage to place any @ 2 | t } penetration agents in the Cuban Embassy or consulate? -e, SS iy fo / Mr. Goldsmith. You nevertheless have had access to the 2 LoS) information that this individual gave to Swider? 3 Mr. Shaw. Did I? o 4 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did the station? 3 5 Mrs Shaw. There were two. I did not place either one, & 5 and I think they both pre-dated 1963. g 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Were those two penetration agents within | iS oe Cuban consulate or Embassy at the time of the President's | S $ || assassination? | 2 i = He Mr. Shaw. Yes. One was in the consulate -- LITAMIL-7 : HT lwas the cryptonym. L-I-T-A-M-I-L-7. And the other one was | 3 i = sok the Embassy -- LeéI-T-A-M-I-L-9. ; oO é 13 Mr. Goldsmith. What information did these people give | = 1 | you after the assassination: pertaining to the possible involve-, = i | : i3 ment of the Cuban government? — a Mr. Shaw. I did not handle LITAMIL-7,,and LITAMIL-9. TI : 2 "| aia handle,-~ | : : . Mr. Goldsmith. Who handled LITAMIL-7? : 5 = | Mr. Shaw. I think that it. was | but I am not 3 S [sures I did not meet LITAMIL-7 until| J left the sceeg. 1! | country. | | La. | : i Mr. Shaw. I would normally have seen copies of contact t oy dae " reports which were reports that we wrote -~‘any of us who were |, . aEppe oe vale ALQERSON Se ioatina comeay HW 50955 Docld:322977214 Page 15
i Se YS me w iBone “ibe rid we: oe 1-15 cos officers wrote -- after station meetings, and it would have been normal for me, for example, to see any information of consequence that LITAMIL-7 produced, just like it would have been normal for any other case officer in the Cuban sec- hae tion to see my contact reports on meetings with LITAMIL-9. Mr. Goldsmith. In light of that, do you know what infor- ; i t an | mation LITAMIL-7 ‘qave concerning the Cuban government! s reac- | | ata tion to the death of the President? 20024 €202) S5H-2345 ~ Cc a) Mr. Shaw. I do not recall, and I do not recall the hoc. i | | specifics of anything. You may have something in your files i i | with my name on it; I do not know what LITAMIL-9 produced. 4 i 3 I do have the recollection of the sense of feeling on the 4 5 part of those people that there was no exultation or jubila- Pe tion or happiness whatsoever inside the Cuban Embassy at the Cary assassination of President Kennedy. REPORTERS WUTLDING, GASHTNGTON , day Mr. Goldsmith. Did the penetration agents ever indicate We S$. ’ that Oswald. had been to the Embassy and had stated that he was | | soins to attempt to kill the President? | | Mr. Shaw. No, not that I know of. 300 77Tu STREET, Mr. Goldsmith. Did any of those agents ever indicate tha t. Se Oswald had had contact with the Agency -~ with the Embassy, rather? = ti ’ é Mr. Shaw. I whould imagine that LITAMIL-7 probably did -4 I do not recall it. But since she was in the consulate, and ' i ‘ -gince it was my understanding that Oswald's contact with the | Ww am HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 16 COMP ANLY
consular field rather than with the Embassy field, I should i * } ty as [inagine, given the discussions that undoubtedly took place in i lithe Cuban Embassy after this assassination, that she probably { i ana ge | spoke about it. I do not know. { Es sy -Mr. Goldsmith. What was the name of LITAMIL-7? 6) Mr.° Shaw. I'd rather not give names. ! g 7 (Discussion off the record.) 1 S a Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, in light of your response, I am ‘ 3 | certainly aware of the sensitivity of this issue and of your concern for sources and methods, and I would also make two points. One is that under the letter, you are free of your | i i : 12 | secrecy obligation. At the same time, I am not about to.rely | upon that letter to compel an answer out of you, because you | t are here voluntarily today to help us. And, as I said, because : i : } : } i I understand your concern.for a sensitive source in this. case, | | | | | | | | | i | ' i | | i REPORTEPS BUPLDING, VASITNCTON , is {4 \2 am not going to ask you to state for the record the name of wae either one of these individuals. Ww rary Mr. Carlucci? a IF a 1B Mr. Shaw. May I say something at this point? = [ E17 | Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. e i . = 20 Mr. Shaws, It is my understanding that both of these ——— 21 | people are, if they are still alive, are living in Mexico and | Oe ay aa ; , th : : ' @ rae 22 I do not want to be in a position of revealing a name which | i ; : #2 | could harm either of those people. I notice here that it says ~~ & a4 i Mr. Goldsmith. You are referring new to the letter from | COMPAIMY HW 450955 DocId: 32277214 Page i?
wo = 5 = = ro] i wo : wa 9 ~ oN . a os 7 id Os 5 e co] oe m™ Pa 9 rom - iG S at = Vy pa ' a a = . =. 12 cS > = ed pa - = 13 S iS « sl rad ; fe t = 18 wn = 13 ~ ° = 29 om va ee ret nd fe @O <2 aN, 23 2 HW 50955 Docld: Mr. Shaw. Yes. "To provide the affected person the opportunity to receive guidance from me or my designees on the applicability of this authorization, particularly to questions which are asked." I would like to get Frank Carlucci to tell me that I would! reveal two names of agents, if it is necessary -~ or you can find out from the file, probably, who they are. Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, I. understand your position. I want to make sure you understand mine. I am in no way forcing you to reveal a name. Once you had demonstrated a reluctance to, then, as far as I was concerned, then the matter was terminated. Mr. Shaw. No problem? Mr. Goldsmith. I will say that we will pursue this by contacting the appropriate people at the Agency. Mr. Shaw. I think if you requested the Agency for those two names, it would probably produce them. I wouldn't want to be the guy to say it. Mx. Goldsmith. I understand your position perfectly. I hope you understand mine. Mr. Shaw. I do. Mr. Goldsmith. I would not want you to go back to the Agency and say that the staff of this Committee attempted to compel an answer out of you.
hy FS og BA 2 te he Gow “ty & Be S. ae Wales Mr. Shaw. I will not say any such thing. ' Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. 3) For the record, would you spell the cryptonyms of these 1 penetration agents? 2 § | Mr. ‘Shaw. One of them was LITAMIL-7 -- L-I-T-A-M-I-L - 7. 5 g | The other was LITAMIL-9. | | S : Mr. Goldsmith. Are these two agents still active? S 7 Mr. Shaw. Neither one is active. I am quite sure that ; | neither one is active. . | Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of clarification, LITAMIL-7, S | | g 1 i was that agent working out of the consulate? = ii = 2 | Mr. Shaw. That aqent was an employee of the consular | & 2 13 | section of the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. LITAMIL-9 was an | : | officer of the Embassy. | - i = sl Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, on the question of the identity ! 3 u ; : = 1é lof these two agents, when you go back to the Agency, could you ! : IT jraise this. question with the appropriate individual, appropri- z i3 ate superior authority, and we will do the same so that some | . 1g time this week we can get together on that? | : 0 Mr. Shaw. I do not see any reason for us to get cogether.. ——- 21 You can get it from them, I am sure. It is just that I have | ae i HW 450945 fa wa rather strong feeling about protecting anybody who has i 1 ‘ 21 [cooperated with us. It is not that I consider you do not have a right to that | information, if you feel that you need it. It is just that I | f 4 ‘ ah Fits i ALDERSON SS SD ORTING COMPAR Doold: 32277214 Page 19 “2 : i
nn) aa} © 4 By w = & * ~~ a t We) P wa 9g = ~ ! = a 7 ‘or OM x 8 Led ™ . a roy % a ~ 10 S Q po ty fons ad aw a = 14 te cS = = 12 = = ond T 4 we oo feat J 1s a i) 2 = a © LS = a 17 Be a t. = ko} n = IF - i = 29 va Cie onal 4 ed My aria ey sg is AS m rae nD t3 ry = oe ° yw da HW 50955 Docld: cannot bring myself to reveal the true name of an agent unless | i . | I am required to do so. | i | Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that concern. I certainly respect it. I have been informed by my researcher, Dan Hardway, that | (Pause) 2 | the Agency is in the process of looking into this issue. Mr. Shaw. Okay. | i Mr. Goldsmith. At this time, I would like to get into | Re area of the telephone taps that were in operation in 1963 against the Cuban Embassy and consulate. My first question is, | nee responsibility, if any, did you have with regard to the telephone tap operation? | | - Mr. Shaw. No responsibility. I saw the product, | i usually. | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the individual who was in charge of that tap? Mr. Shaw. I do not know whose responsibility it was. I rather suspect that it may have been Ann Goodpasture's, but I do not know for sure. I do not remember. ! There were two telephone operations, two tap operations. One of them was unilateral and one of them was joint with the ' i Mexican government. | Mr. Goldsmith. Which one was the unilateral one? By H that, I mean which phones were covered by the unilateral one? pa eo he ee | OLbeL | ALDESSON REFORTING COMPAAY 32277214 Page 20
fh | 3 4 i cS 7 | w | = a 1 “ 2 | loan] i wi Q - | ~ it a - “ fo “ | | = aoa = i ~ q . af “3 % i = 104 S i ~ id = it a ; e i = 1A is : - \ - Pa i ad ta eq ‘+ jl = 4 ~ it Zo il a A az a = ot = '5 5 coed uf = t204 took om ! “ ae ii oa | an = | - | = 19 ~ i t S | = 20 | ! as ae Wau} 13 - Pre : ae i “ey i \ ay 4 if a HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 21 a tej oe es Bas, e ee Rad 1-20 Mr. Shaw. There was a mix, .and I cannot. recall which were which. It may well have been that we were tapping some Cuban Embassy phones unilaterally, and some of them were being tapped jointly. I know that there was coverage on the joint tap operation, which I believe was called LIENVOY. I am not sure. Mr. Goldsmith. That is correct. I i | ! You indicated that you think Ann Goodpasture may have been responsible for the telephone tap operation operation. What basis do you have for that? Mr. Shaw. Responsible in the sense of I am not sure of that, because I know she did some of that kind against the Cuban of work. I am not sure who did it. We used to get copies of the transcripts and I remember -- I am sure I saw some of the Cuban stuff on joint taps. And then, of course, taps that were run by the Mexican government. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you review the-transcripts that came in as a matter of regular routine? Mr. Shaw. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you read all of them?. Mr. Shaw. No. Mr. Goldsmith. Which ones would you read? Mr. Shaw. I would have been interested primarily in the Cuban ones, and what they called the resuma a Spanish word for resume ~~ the resuma was if you will, of the digest of the joint tap -- it was sort of a distillation, | | ‘picking up the take that was prepared, |
1-21 { “4 | i | | i ceo] m Pe | NM t ww - 4 wi 3 ~ i rot 4 =e 74 ~ | “ a: e we ON = \ S i " : ~ <a 3 c | - ta | = Ud | S = nel = i “4 i = A hI te ul cc ‘ @ =: = | i = A i 4 = i! _ 4 Ss 12 cad ta oot = ; a a = 2H = iS: an = " { «ois ie s 18 | in =F) a™ I < « |) i L eee ft SS a + } i H a | i te fa7 2 Heo, | HW 30955 Docld: 32277214 Page 22 | in Russian, because the Cuban Embassy did not have any Russian: . t po You look at the resuma, which may be two pages, and you may have the gist of what might. } } | ' 4 | be a whole bunch of pages of tap. Mr. Goldsmith. Normally, you read transcripts of conver- | | sations that took place on telephones of the Cuban Embassy, | is that correct? . | Mr: Shaw. Normally, I read some of that stuff. TI do not | remember whether I saw it all-or.not,  becauseaquite a bit of | it was processed by other people. I do not know who they were,| people on the outside, I suppose. And I read summaries of what appeared on these things, but I remember also, at times, seeing the verbatim -- Man Outside says so and so; Person Inside, Woman Inside, says such and such. Mr; Goldsmith. Sometimes you would get - summary tyrans-~- : criptions..of: the: summary’ canwéersations. or. English and sometimes you would get verbatim translations, is that correct? Mr. Shaw. Yes. I would see them, I would not get them. They would go past me. I would see them. Mr. Goldsmith. Was it more likely that what you would sed in verbatim form, conversations. that took place, for example, in Russian and had to be translated before you received them? Mr. Shaw. I certainly would not see any conversations conversations. I cannot reahly answer that question. I am not really sure I fully understand it. I do remember seeing SrGRz] ALSERSoN REPORTING COMPAMY
a variety of take, what we call take, from the various tap ha ' i i i | | | | | @peratsons: This take sometimes was processed into English. | The stuff that appeared in the resuma was in Spanish. Sometimes 3 7 the conversations were typed out in Spanish and translated into = S| English. I prefer them in Spanish, because I am at home in | 3 z | Spanish. | : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. How many peephe reviewed the take from | : g | the surveillance operation of the Cuban Embassy and consular | ‘ ; | telephones? | .. | Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. I assume there were quite a S : 1) | Bew. The stuff was widely passed around. © 2 I Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, how many people i @ 43 J would review them? | i Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. | Mr. Goldsmith. How many people were in Cuban operations? REPORTERS BUECDING, te | Mr. Shaw. I would guess five or six. to i Mr. Goldsmith. Who were they? a Mr. Shaw. Dave Phillips. i | 19 i Mr. Goldsmith. We are talking now about the period 1963? ad i Mr. Shaw. That is right. Dave Phillips,myself, | I am trying to think of the girl's name. We had - | (sh aan Vr STRERT, SoM. Bh oo i \ © £29 x1 i various secretaries in there. I. do not know who was the secre-' i : 13 }tary in '63. 'TI'm not sure she was there at @ 4 i that time. Of course, Allen White would see it. Winn Scott would see HW 50955 DocId: 32277214 Page 23 ALODERSON we els SO upatie
i }. t er is eee DEVAS 1-33 ae 2 ! Mr. Goldsmith. They would not review every transcript 3 or summary that came in, would then? Allen White or Winn Scott?) e 4 | Mr. Shaw. I imagine Winn Scott; I do not know about : z 3 : Allen White. Winn was pretty much, he tended to review almost | 2 3 all of the paper that came in and out of the station. ! ~ = 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying that there was no routine. i 8 | procedure established for who was to review the take from the | ~ i . j co F Cuban telephone surveillance operations? : a i ‘ = 1G | Mr. Shaw. I am saying that, when I got there, the case | : v4 officers in Cuban Ops. saw this stuff that was routed around ! a i = 12 through the station and that persisted during the time that | j I was there. | WIELDING, An RPPORTERS 7 ee Mr. Goldsmith. I am not sure that the answer -- Mr. Shaw. How that was routed, I am not sure. 7 | Mr. Shaw. I do not know that either, but it was my i$ Mr. Goldsmith. Did you customarily see every conversa~ “- \7 | tion that came in? = 148 | Mr. Shaw. I doubt it. I doubt.it. a = fF Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have seen the conversation and | = 29 decided that it was not important enough to merit your atten- Po arog Be 1 tion? ! o> Wa te Mr. Shaw. I do not know. a i Mr. Goldsmith. Who brought in the take from these opera-, a a | tions to the. station? ov t | HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 24 ALQESSON REPORTING COMFANY
1-24 understanding that non-official cover people on the outside H t picked up. the tapes -- don't consider this gospel, but this is my understanding ~- picked up tapes from the various listen-| i i i t ing posts, some of which had been processed by people in the | ' 1 = g | Hetenins post; some of which had not. But they, in turn, | 5 ; | either processed those tapes or took them to people to continue e 5 the processing in case they had a foreign language in them, or e a something, and then turn them over to the station. 3 2 | Somebody went out from the station, probably with a little a i ; . 1g | attache case or something, and picked up takes again. It is g ln understanding that the person primarily involved in that | 5 i . = iq | Was: Ann Goodpasture, but I do not know for sure. © = 13 1 Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the first person that the trans- | a u = . . . = , | exripts would go to upon their arrival at the Embassy? = ve | Mr, Shaw. I rather suspect Winn Scott, because I remember z 1g | Great numbers of those white pages that came across our desk. , a i7 | had P numbers written on them in black ink by Winn Scott. - an . z a Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how many lines were being = 13 | tapped at the Cuban consulatevand Embassy? = , , 5 . Mr. Shaw. I do not know. | Mr. Goldsmith. You reviewéd the transcripts and summaries | *) } “| ve of these conversations for two years and you have no idea how RD us many lines were tapped? | Mr. Shaw. No. This was fifteen years ago. I can give oar : XS / a Ul you a quess. i TAB. | | _ Sibael! HW 450955 Docld: 32277214 Page 25
ied be “a => 5 “a Pe) aA i a wi $ o~ ~ ‘ = > ow / omer ww = a 2 ~ . ~ ‘3 Ps a * ta = old o = 4q mo a aa = 43 «s @ =; = = ta el = 13 a = 4g = “7 S18 na = 9 ~ ¢ e eS 29 ae Lo Te HW 450945 fas 22 af mA Docld 132277214 Page 26 ALSERSON REPORTIN Mr. Goldsmith. Sure. A best guess would be helpful. Mr. Shaw. I would guess three or four lines. The primary interest was in the Soviets. You had far more converage. That is a guess. Mr. Goldsmith. Understood. Mr. Shaw. I would guess, off-hand, two lines in the Embassy, one line in the consulate. was tapped? Mr. Shaw. If the consulate line was tapped -- “Mr. Goldsmith. It would have been his? Mr. Shaw. Probably it would have been his, but they may have had a direct line in there. I do not know. Mr. Goldsmith. How would a telephone tap actually work? I am talking now about the actual mechanics of the tap. Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I never had anything do do with them. I know they used to take some of their taps at what. they call the junction boxes. Thesewould be the boxes out in the street where lines came in to be fed into this central -~- I would rather suspect that the joint. operations were mostly done at the central, Since the Mexican government simply could have issued orders, you will tap such and such 4 phone. Mr. Goldsmith. My question is oriented towards the following. Once a tap has been placed on a line, would that «SES Gael iG COMPAS | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if the Cuban consul's telephon ' | ! { 4 ¥ | j i | i i
nm as oe wo = a ~ = od 1 ao wn 6 ~ “ ; fod ° ow é fuer mM = a ca OS a a ro , a ~ IC S nal 3 = Tl “7 ct = 14 va Lo] Ba = : © a 13 = = = t4 a = +¢ = io 2 Zo te > ut iF me, % 18 “ = 9 ~ c ¢ 729 a] OS” ae oy nay WOR 7 is a a4 az . a HY 50955 Doctld: 1-26 mean that all calls, ingoing or outgoing, on that phone would be picked up, so long as the tap is in effect? Mr. Shaw. So long as it is in effect, yes. Whether those would appear in the transcripts is another matter. If it was like a wrong number, or somebody saying pick up three rolls and bring them home for lunch, probably it would not appear on the eranscript. Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make that decision? _ Mr. Shaw. Whoever transcribed the tapes. Mr. Goldsmith. How much time would pass from the moment that a call came in until the transcription passed across your desk? Mr. Shaw. I cannot answer your question with any preci- sion. There was a system in the Embassy whereby if you had | a fast-breaking situation, or something like that, you could 4 I sure would like to get the transcripts of. such and such a line fast, and that information would be processed and funneled back in to the Embassy or into the station on a priority basis. | I would guess, offhand, that it ran -~ again, this is a guess -- five, six, seven days. Mr. Goldsmith. What about the high priority cases? Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can get that pretty fast. Mr. Goldsmith. Within a day? Mr. Shaw. Yes. We could have somebody looking for a SECRET 322772914 Page 27 "  ALDESSON RESORTING COMPANY
ara 1-27 ' | certain call, and I do not recall ever doing that. But it a 2) was my understanding that if you expected some situation, that o> eS 3 | you could levy a requirement -- for example, let me give you | a for instance here. = “| Let us suppose that we, the station, someone in the sta- | 2 § tion was going to make a recruitment pitch to a Soviet officer, g 7 It would have been possible for the station to have organized | S a things so that there was a live body. and not just a machine | ry a / 3 9 | hanging over phone calls coming in to the Soviet Embassy in | : g | case the guy called up and said, let me tell you the discus- | : 1 sion I just had, or something like that. a i | = a This would be a little far-fetched, because a Soviet | g : = i © 5 13 would not be likely to handle it by phone. But in a case ! = = | where you are looking for something fast-breaking-to protect | as i i 5 S| yourself, being. on top of the situation -- it would not apply 7 = much to Mexico, but if you had a revolutionary situation 4 i breaking out someplace, surely there is a possibility of : : 7 getting information very quickly off any given line.. | : 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. Would the transcripts. be reviewed. by . | é 20 you in chronological order? : j ! an Mr. Shaw. I got them in. batches and I would review them | ey ee) ! just in the-ofder in which they came. I might have shuffled them in chronological order, yes. Quite often they came in four or five or 8ix pages stapled together. Mr. Goldsmith. Would they tend to come in chrolological ALDER: ae: ae HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 25 a
HW 450955 wt > « a § Nt E a . wi - 9 ~ ~ . oS 7 es é tet & 4a eS oe ™ . . oy 9 a = iG S so = 11 a “ = 1 i ood = ha +4 a is = = $ a tw corny m= 12 = 14 = a T es *, © 13 a) = 19 ~ ond s 2 21 fon fees 22 af ia 22 a) ma aX ae an Docld: a3 be 1-28 Mr. Shaw. Generally yes, xight. Mr. Goldsmith. What happened to the transcripts after i they were reviewed by you? Mr. Shaw. They were usually routed. They had a routing sheet on it, and they would go on to somewhere else. Where they went, I do not know. Sometimes we would mark them for files. Of course, if there were a transcript in there that | had specific information on somebody that we were interested in, we would mark a copy for the files and it would go into | that person's -~ either their P-file, which was their personnel | file, or into any operational self-file that would we make, | building up background information on a person, the little | things like whether an officer's wife was unhappy with the maid or with Living conditions or the cost or what. have you of the | drugstore - These little bits and pieces were built up and those came from transcripts... Mr. Goldsmith. Would these transcripts eventuallysqet sent to headquarters? Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I will say that it was unlikely | probably, in the file room. | ithat Winn Scott ever threw anything away. It was somewhere, | | Mr. Goldsmith. What about the tapes? What would happen { ‘with the tapes after a conversation had been transcribed? i Mr. Shaw. Again, you are getting into an area where I Signe! SLOZRSON REPORTING COMES an? 39277214 Page 29
1-29 i never had any personal experience. It is my understanding ; i | t i ie 4 | that tapes were erased and reused, and they were used over | , | and over again. Otherwise, we would have ended up with a room | © 4 | full of tapes and there really was no reason to keep them. | ? 7 Now, I would also assume that if there was something | a 4 | important on a tape that they might have held it. I do not i S 1 ow I do not recall ever saying, hold that tape for me. x ; | The transcript usually sufficed as the record. = | ; . Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if, at the time of the assassina- : | tion, that the station had a tape recording of Lee Harvey | Oswald's voice? WASETNG TON , | +7 Mr. Shaw. No, I do not know if they did. I think they | did not. It was my understanding that what they had was a transcript of some guy calling, again, it is my understanding. |; I believe he called the Soviet Embassy from the Cuban Embassy, day H { t i ‘ t t UL REPORTERS RUEEDONS, | | le | OF the Cubans called the Soviet Embassy, I am not sure. But Vas far as having the tape with Oswald's voice on it, I seriously wy i = 33 j doubt it. = 19 | (Discussion off the record.) ¢ 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you now what was 47 # marked here as CIA No. 197 and, for purposes of the record > i : i ith i | ] “2/7 22: and for your information, the Agency has provided us with its | | i! 23 | documents. Each page has been assigned a number. The reason | | . pit has been assigned a number is so that the Agency can make | | 2s ‘sure that everything given to the Committee is returned. For 4 | ann FORG! MORE ane ERSON ORT TING COMPGALY H¥ 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 30 AL
HY 50955 4 c 4 4 wo > EY ~ Pe} ~ ' ve) P w & =~ ad a 7 tent 2 oe 3 at fo] some nM . 4 ag ? a ~ 10 3 ~ gS _ mi pw ti Lt “. = 4 ba 82 = ol te = ~ = = ta es > Pa - = 13 = = = 1g ~ > “ - “ V7 » 2 18 - aT. poo 1g al iy ~ conta a = 29 a1 ree Doctld: 32277214 Page 31 SLUR RE i 1-30 4 a HI | reference purposes, we simply use those numbers for a witness | a ,when we are going through this pile of materials. Now I would like you to take a look at CIA No. 197, the i second paragraph. (Pause) Mr. Shaw. Okay. Mr. Goldsmith. The second paragraph indicates that the station is unable to compare the voices, as the first tape was jerased prior to the receipt of the. second call. Mr. Shaw. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that at least yhave said the tapes had been erased, ‘routinely, whatever. state that. That is an interpretation, certainly. or not there was a taping system? | Mr.. Shaw. I do not have anything in writing. This did not refresh my memory at all. This probably would have been ' iconsidered. Was this after the assassination? ; Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. f i _ Mr. Shaw. No, I do not think it necessarily indicates, put. I am surpyvised that it does not say that they were both A i idestroyed, or both erased. it ALSEASON “= RAT ies COMP ALY oH that this cable was sent? Otherwise, the second paragraph would Mr. Shaw. Tt could indicate that. It does not definitely ' t 1 Mr. Goldsmith. Does that refresh your memory as to whether
ay : i , i n i | ; | normal time lag would be two weeks. In other words, the tapes aa 4 | would normally be retained for a two-week period. 2 | Mr. Shaw. That is what it seems to say, yes. io Mr. Goldsmith. Is that consistent with your memory now, zg pat the time? 5 5 Mr. Shaw. No, I do not have any idea. I was -not involved! = 7 | in tape pick-ups or tape erasures. | x 2 Mr. Goldsmith. The Oswald telephone calls, as we will see| = \ “) later on, came in within approximately four days of each other, » D.C. <a if,as CIA 239 indicates, the tapes were normally retained for i two weeks prior to being routinely erased. Does that. suggest -5 | to you that the Oswald tape was, for some reason, treated in jan unusual manner, because either the first call came in, let's { ut H i 1 3 t | f REPORTERS GHUOCLDTHG, UASHTHGTOM oO 1g | Say September 27th. © By the time the second call came in, the 13 [first tape had already been erased.. 13 | Mr, Shaw... No,’ it: does not suggest that:to me. -= what-is this nm r iT | ber here because'thismessage came out 9 December 63. What it 2 i : = 13 | suggests to me is that, subsequent to the assassination, is | : that the station was to hold tapes for. a minimum of two weeks. | = i = 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. Please read into the record what 239 says. | Mr. Shaw. CS comment:.«station to erase routine tapes, | * Soviet! Embassy, keeping normal two week lag. Mr. Goldsmith. Does that suggest to you that the normal lag would not be two weeks? Mr. Shaw. This was not. addressed to me. ie oo ‘SEERET ALOERSON REFORTING comewsy | MW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 33
us pies aa ita! ¢ & pe Be ~r ; ! Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that. Mr. Shaw. There is no reason for me to read this anymore 4-3 Ob ; | than there is reason for you to read that. “The words stand cs 3 | by themselves. | = 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. That is right, and you have just given an i , interpretation of those words, suggesting that that the mean- S | ling is prospective in intent. In other words, after December = | | 202% i would be two weeks. p.c. “Lb Mr. Shaw. I think it could read that, yes. TI do not know oO | | i : 9, 1963, the timelag for retention of. tapes prior to erasure | | | | | | iwhat went on between Winn and the station. as far as periods WASHCHCTON , 4 ‘me into a situation of pointing out that the station was remiss; RUTEDING, in destroying tapes, and I do not believe that is the case. o > | €or keeping these, but. I think what you are trying ‘to do is lead | | | | | | Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to indicate to you, and also day REPORTERS i for the: record, that what I am trying to do here is go over |questions that are raised by the documents and the Committee 13 ‘has no predisposition, one way or the other, to reach any We. S. a) particular conclusions. 306 7b STREET, a 20 | The. truth is ‘that. unless these questions are asked of [you both the Agency and the Committee will be criticized by OSS @ fey rial "people in the future who review these documents and say, why yoo 4 i 33 iwere not. these questions asked of you. if i ti Mr. Shaw. I can understand why you are asking the ques~ | P | 23 jtions. I am simply not. in a position to tell you, from memory ; ee SECRET ‘ ALDSRS REPORTING COMPAUNY, HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 34
Bt a vee was ry balk: af 1-34 ~e ; | or anything else what the normal station procedure was regard- . | c , | ing retention of tapes, although, as I did indicate earlier, 3 ; that the tapes were routinely erased and used over again. As [ co 4 far as the time lag, you know as much about it, and probably | E | more than I do, by now. : : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. What responsibility, if any, did you have | S 7) with regard to the photo-surveillance operation against the ; . | Cuban Embassy and consulate? : | Mr. Shaw. T had no responsibility for that operation | ~ ig | until after. Ivreassuméd the Cuban Ops section which would have | been the day Phillips left for Mexico, probably a year or VASHON TON , two down the road. I do know, however, that the operation -- ~ boy REPORT HiGs SUPE PINs ipa there was a Cuban photo, or a photo operation against the Cuban Embassy. I do not remember why, but I think that observation was not active in the period when Oswald was in Mexico. If I oA, " remember correctly, the man, to the best of my knowledge who S no | i l i i i I i : 'g | handled that, who was actually the inside case officer, if : 2 4 | you will, was the little guy who was snapping the pictures, ! ~ ' t é 0, was a fellow by the name of Robert Zambarnadi, and I believe 1. | he is retired and living in Mexico. I do not know. | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the station case officer responsible LY is ks im. to for running the photo-surveillance operation against. the Cubans? Mr. Shaw. As far as I know, it was Robert. Zambarnardi, Snball ~ GSR san TINS COSYVe 2 any NW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 35 me me
ne Ry i ac is] oe) Gs ea" hat rah wt | no was the technical officer of the station. He was a fl “ © a technically qualified man. tab | q i i i Mr. Goldsmith. There was no one overseeing him? : ) Mr. Shaw. I do not believe so, but maybe Dave was. I $y | : $ | do not know. We used to get batches of pictures. One of the | 3 $ | things: that’ I.would do with the agent that I mentioned earlier | 5 aie that I handled: was.take batches of these pictures to him : : 3) and sit down with him and say, did you ever see this guy, or | 8 3 | who was that? And he'd‘say, that's a courier, or that's the : 10 [new officer who just arrived, or I do not know who this guy : i was, but he came in and talked to so and so, that sort of | A : : ie (thing. | co - id We used to try to identify people with those pictures. | : 4 Mr. Goldsmith. How many photo bases were there taking : is ' pictures of the Cuban consulate and embassy? = | Mr. Shaw. To the best of my knowledge, there was only : ” 17 jone photo base. At times, the consulate was not covered and : ia ithe Embassy was. If I may draw you a picture, this would be | a yo . = 7 | ehe block, the compound block. The Cuban Embassy was the | 2 28 loig building up here, and there was a little gatehouse down egened | here. I do not remember whether it was in or out. a ene ar _ This was the consulate, on the corner. People who would ! 3 want to get visas would routinely appear here and they would a = send them down the street and they would go into the consulane. } i Sometimes they knew where they were going and they came in here, 7 SEGRE i cor were HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 36
1-36 — lox they asked a cab, take me to the Cuban consulate, they would probably be delivered here. This is a block, a city block. The house from which the es | photographs were taken is over here on this corner. The tae | photographs were taken long distance down here and here. This was not always covered. This was considered more important, i | g 7 [pees it was routine -- either there was a lot of routine & 3 visa stuff here. ; | Later on, subsequent -- gosh, it must have been a year | : 19 liater. I do not’ remember just when -- we developed a system, S i : : th jor somebody up here in-the states who developed a system | s 12 “whereby the camera would be triggered automatically. That is | © Z 3 movement -- sort of like a photo-elettric cell or something -- : = ‘| ba | movement up here in the picture that the camera was to cover 4 ra i : 1g | would cause a series of photos to be taken, maybe four or | S : | = is | Five, zap, zap, zap, something like that. | 3 | But I believe that, at the time Oswald was in Mexico city, z 14 prot only was this down for some reason and not. functioning, | 2 a but I believe, had it been functioning, that it would have : ¢ ot been individual picture snapping. I do not think chat auto= | II 4 |}matic equipment was in Mexico at. that time. I could be ° 3 ! Swe 72 wrong. , . . Mr. Goldsmith. I am not going to be able to introduce ; H : | 4 f d i : this diagram into the record, so I am just going to describe 23 }4t as best as I can. ; COMPLY W¥ 50955 Docla:32277214 Page 37
JEUNE | Led Rory Sed OS ches 1-37 4 i You indicated that on one block, ons one corner of that block-was a consulate building for the Cubans. The other side i \ | | of the block was the Embassy building. ab se Across the street was the photo base. t | j | : i ‘ = 5 Mr. Shaw. This was all wall. This was a compound. a | , . . a | < 7 |here that had a theatre downstairs and had offices upstairs. x 2 i Mr. Goldsmith. Was that within the compound also? J 3 - Mr. Shaw. Yes. a : Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Three buildings within the Cuban compound? | Mr. Shaw. Yes. | i ‘| i . | é | Excuse me, if I may interject. There was another building back | : i i dl a ASUTMCTON , -,Mr. Goldsmith....The photo ‘base ‘was located across the 12 l sexeoter 2 was Closer to the consulate than it was to the RUELDTNG, d i | entrance of the Embassy? i | Mr. Shaw. That is correct. KEPORPEPS Mr. Goldsmith. - From the diagram that you drew, it would t We. seem that the location of the camera was. closer to the consulate “a i . | = a Vehan it was to the Embassy entrance, yet you also indicated A | ! = 19 jj that most of the people of interest would have been entering S #0 | the Embassy, not the consulate? | | cee Ut Mr. Shaw. That. is correct” Ea ea! 2 Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Was not the placement. of that camera in | if | , so ! h 27 an inappropriate position? | 144 Mr. Shaw. I imagine that camera was placed wherever we a5 | could get it. Getting real straight across from one of those ON oe NGG COMP SAY if ., ae i" WW 50955 Bocla: 322777214 Page 36
RGU: SEL or 1-38 , | embassies was. very difficult. ce 4 i I know, had we had our druthers, we would have placed 3 that camera closer up here and the Soviet Embassy had a similar) ©) 4 sort of situation, a camera over here and one down here. I - | - , | believe theicloser the better, yes. a 7 Mc. Goldsmith. How many photo bases were there operating | e 7 jagainst the Soviet compound, without drawing a diagram? | : | x 3 | Mr. Shaw. I do not know, but I think there must have x | | | 3 9 j been two or three. | 2 ot | Mr. Goldsmith. Are you sure you were not the case officer'! Z | = ,, | overseeing the surveillance operation against the Cubans? “ th ’ . So oa il Mr. Shaw. I certainly am. | te cs i a a | @ = oy i Mr. Goldsmith. So Mr. Zambernardi was not working under a 13 . | = ; x 1a | you? Es is Mr. Shaw. I did not’ consider him working under me, at z , | that time. Later on, when he was replaced and I am not sure . “A iT | whether Dave Phillips was there or not, I did move into this . & jg jOperation. I am trying to think of the cryptonym for the = | = 19 | operation. I cannot. recall. } = , = 30 | And the chap who then handled it was Zambernardi's * ay ! i , 71 | cveplacement, I think his name was Humphrey. That was the 7 oa a ard aft E=9 7; surname, Lou Humphrey, I think. I am not sure. { ma con) Mr. Goldsmith. What was the purpose of the photo-surveil- > lance operation? Mr. Shaw. Primarily to identify people in touch with the oe _ SECRET : SERSON REPORTING COMPANY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 39 ALSERSON R S comes Ww bse is
re a beasas ; | foreign embassy. Mr. Goldsmith. Would everyone's picture be taken? | i | 4 i i } { (a 4 | Mr. Goldsmith. Whose picture would be taken? | 3 Mr. Shaw. No, no way. = 3) Mr. Shaw. For example, that you would normally in an ~ a s | operation like this be limited by time available for the g y | Photographer. You would be Limited by daylight. You would | & : | not photograph a milkman, or a mailman or somebody who would | : 5 | be there repeatedly. You would not photograph a staffer of : .o | the Embassy if once ‘you knew wno he was, unless he was walking ! : ony with somebody. | : r2 You would not photograph a regular visitor to the Embassy, 2 i ag] : 13 if you knew who he was. | = if : . . | z ts i Mr. Goldsmith. Would you photograph all foreigners? | a 1 1§ Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I would have to say the answer | jis no. I never photographed any of them. Do you mean would i ! Ws: S I jall foreigners be photographed? I would say, given the 3 [Limitations that I have enumerated, namely how long a person STRECT , Jean sit there and watch, and they have to take a break now i 3A TTY t H i jens then, daylight, Sundays -- they probably did not photograph. . 4 - a4 ‘because there is little activity. I am sure there were consider- @ vay 22 Jable down. periods in this sort of operation. 4 23 i No, I would say all foreigners were not photographed. ap 24 ‘Ideally, you would like to have a picture of anybody who went i Ww jin and out of there, surely. it t WW 509455 Docld: 32277214 Page 40
an Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that. | My question is, while surveillance base was in operation, would a primary purpose of it be to take pictures of foreigners? t ) Mr. Shaw. ..-.:. Yes. That would have been a primary | = 4 | purpose. Not necessarily foreigners, but people you do not. : s | Tecognize. Foreigners or Mexicans; Mexicans are foreigners | | S 7 | to us, of course. S | Another thing they did, by the way, was they tried to | . | [photograph the. license plates of automobiles that came to these’ | 1g | embassies. | | Mr. Goldsmith. During what hours were these: photo bases , UASIEENCTON , NY x h | -, yin operation? ‘> 2 _ Mr, Shaw. I do not. know. I would say most likely during | - i ; , ; 2 ‘ | business hours and proper daylight conditions, when the : 1s | photographer was available to do the job. 2 it ; i = 14 Mr. Goldsmith. Would you read back that answer? | = a The Reporter: “Question: “During what hours were these Z 4 [proto bases in operation?" . ! : 13 | Answer: “TI do not know. I would say most likely during ! é 30 jpusiness hours and proper daylight conditions, when the a: | __. 1 |protograpber was available to do the job." | Mr. Goldsmith. As a matter of routine, when would Ee a bab $b} | 23 iphotographers have been available to do the job? - 4 i | 4 i Mr. Shaw. I do not know.. I was not involved in these 25 operations: I used to see quite a bit of coverage. . — SEORET faq ALOE? REPORTING COMPARL HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 41 na
a ge Beat ee, ‘_s Kata 1-41 Mr. Goldsmith. What were your primary responsibilities | when you were down there? You were not involved in the photo- ha surveillance operation; you were not involved -~ excuse me for interrupting you. au I CL es 5 Mr. Shaw. Go ahead. 3 a Mr. Goldsmith. You were not involved in the photo- | 2 7 surveillance operation and you were not involved in the wire ns | tap operation, so, my question is, what was your primary ; ; | responeibilicy? 5 | Mr. Shaw.. My primary responsibility was to try to a |, j effect penetrations of the Cuban government. I spent a good = ; = a! bit of time with Cubans of the non-Castro persuasion, attempt- & : 13 ing to identify Cubans of the Castro persuasion that we might : 2/90 after. ¢ il z is | By "go after," I mean attempt to recruit. 2 | I spent a lot of time collecting information from the r + | Cuban asset on the outside.to process into the intelligence - 2 reports on what was happening in Cuba. 2 2 We had a system set. up in Mexico City under an agent : jones AMSAIL who was the representative of the, exile commun- 31 | ity. He would arrange to meet, hebtp, debrief, Cubans who were NR “a7 3. | arriving constantly from Cuba on the way to the United States a NT SO | / 44 a ' 234 | lor to Mexico or to somewhere else in the world, people who. | | were exiting Cuba. | Mexico did not break relations with Cuba as did the other | 1 | | ; Ae sR HW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 42
SEGRE’ one , [ovontries of the Hemisphere. The OAS recommended that; H | Mexico did not do it. i Ps | | | So, when the refugee flow dried up in Florida, we probably | i ee one of the most productive operations there in Mexico | "| ‘a 5 oy regarding information on what was going on in Cuba. = = . ' eo i . 2 : I spent a lot of time with AMSAIL on that. wt ° : i ; ; | ; } x | “ "Mr, Goldsmith. Did you ever try to recruit Eusbio Ascue? |; z | Mr. Shaw. His name is Eusbio Ascue. y 5 Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. _ Le) . | ; . a i . : saa | Mr. Shaw. A-s-c-u-e. Fist name, E-u-s-b-i-o. | z= aNd H t ~~ t i g | I did not try to recruit Ascue. That may have been | S ,, , attempted prior to my arrival, in which the man who would know oo eG 2 1 jabout it, if it had been attempted, would be Mr. | | = ota | | Fog | Mr. Goldsmith. What about Teresa Proenza? i = te Mr. Shaw. No, I never made.any attempt to recruit “oot Teresa Proenzay : - | = ta Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know if anyone ever did? . = 2 re Shaw. I know we had an officer in Washington who < a jae formerly served in Mexico City who was very interested -. - i . 3; jin Teresa Proenza. That. officer's name was I Mr. Goldsmith. Is he still with the Agency? Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that he is. they 3 Mr. Goldsmith. What about Guillermo Ruiz? Mr. Shaw. That does not even ring a bell. Ruiz isa $ + yo HW 50955 Docld:392977214 Page 43