HW 53716 SECR P ~~ @ ~ 29 om You asked me whom I asked; and I said I do not know. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) Maybe you asked a passerby, or perhaps you asked at the Commandant’s Office in Kaliningrad. Who knows? | You should know better. Of course, when you left Moscow, they must have told you where the intelligence headquarters were situated. Baltiysk; I knew that I had to get to Baltiysk. I had to take the train to Kaliningrad, and then from there it was only several kilometers to Baltiysk. Then, they must have explained to you that you would arrive at Kaliningrad, and then you would have to go to Baltiysk where the headquarters are; and they were sure that you would get there. Well, I could talk, and I had an outline. This is what I am talking about. You place me in a difficult position, also, when you say, "Well, I arrived in Baltiysk." Right; I did not have ‘to go to Kaliningrad, but to Baltiysk; and I got to Baltiysk. If a person is going there by train, he has to stop before getting to Baltiysk. If-a person is going there by train, he has to stop before getting to 4 Baltiysk. In Kaliningrad, in Kaliningrad. DoclId: 327404703 Page 32
HW 532716 SECRET 30 - Are you sure of that? Yep; I made a stop in Kaliningrad. And a train does not go to Baltiysk? A train does not go to Baltiysk. Does not go there; we, the two of us, will remember this. From Kaliningrad to Baltiysk -- you got there by hitchhiking. To whom did you turn when you arrived at the Headquarters of the Baltic Fleet? How did you find the Intelligence Headquarters? I was not at the Headquarers of the Baltic Fleet, the Headquarters of the Fourth Baltic Fleet. | I got to Baltiysk, found the First Commandant's Office, and asked how I could get to Military Unit such-and-such; I was told on what street it was: After all, it is not a large tom. _ Well, what was the name of the street? I do not remember, I absolutely do not remember. How many months were you on duty with Intelligence of the Fourth Navy L Fleet? Four months; somewhat over four months -— until the end of December. Were you in Baltiysk all the time? No, in Sovetsk; the MRP was in Sovetsk, not in Baltiysk. Then, what was at Baltiysk, the Headquarters? The Headquarters of the whole Fourth Navy Fleet, including Intelligence DoclId:327404703 Page 353
HW 532716 DoclId:327404703 Page 34 @ ar of the Fourth Navy Fleet was at Baltiysk. The main base and Headquarters of the Fourth Navy Fleet was in Baltiysk. Well, how long were you in Baltiysk when you arrived there and reported in; how much time did you spend there until you left for the MRP? Well, perhaps it took an hour while they arranged for transportation; the auto took me to the MRP; this is several kilometers away -- from Baltiysk to Sovetsk. Approximately how many kilometers? Well, look; Baltiysk is on a spit, at the center of the spit. You come down from the spit to the mainland, where Sovetsk is located. Well, is it about 10=20 kilometers away? No, its about 6 or 8 kilometers away; 10, not more. You are sure that you worked in Sovetsk? Yes; I know that I worked in Sovetsk, I worked in Sovetsk. Maybe you have confused thds with another city. No, no. Because I do not want you to say to me again later that you made some kind of an error. Well, let us take a look at the map; I am not sure of anything right now; I am not sure of anything. Why? Because you are twisting me around. You are twisting everything around; you are twisting every thing around.
HW 53716 A. DoclId: 327404703 Page 35 - 32 =| I am not twisting anything around. Give me a map of the Soviet Union, and I will show you == here, here is Baltiysk; here, here is Sovetsk; and this is the place where I was. Well, I will show you a map right now. Very well; I will point out right away where I was, Here is Volume 19 of the Bol'shaya Sovetskaya Entsiklopediya; this volume was approved for publication, 16 June 1953, approximately one year after you were there. Just a minute... the spit, Baltiysk... and Primorsk, not Sovetsk. Here it is == Primor'ye, Primorsk... just a minute.... Primorsk, Primors] Just a minute. This is Sovetsk. Then, why == in the past and today -= have you insisted on Sovetsk? ((XG; A and B speak at the same time) ) Why I said Sovetsk, I do not know -= Primorsk. Answer me «= why did you say Sovetsk? Why did I say so? In my memory, Sovetsk... the city of Primorsk. Well, what do you think -= a man who has worked in the GRU, in Intelligence, went to the Baltic Fleet, to Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, worked there for several months... and confused everything (C"'confused God's gift with scrambled eggs")).
| _ Pacha © | © - 33 - B. Primorsk, Primorsk, Primorsk, Primorsk; why did I say Sovetsk? A. Do you know where Sovetsk is? B. I do not know; Primorsk is at the beginning of the spit. A. Well, I think you should answer my question -- where is Sovetsk? For two years you have always said Sovetsk, Sovetsk. B. Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; Primorsk. A. Well, one more question -- from where did you get "Primorskiy Kray"? B. Well, this is a kray by the sea, by the sea -~- Primorskiy Kray; it is by the sea -=— Primorskiy Kray. A. How was it, as you told me the last time, that you received letters addressed to you? B. Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; well, it means, the city... of Primorsk, Primorskiy Kray... something.... A. The last time, I intentionally asked why Kaliningrad was called Kaliningrad; I asked and answered the question, The question I asked, évery schoolboy knows —- there is no Primorskiy Kray there and there never was. And then, an intelligence officer -- and besides that, a counterin- telligence officer -- a man who has graduated from the Institute of International Relations, cannot.... B. Well, alright; why are you always pushing, pushing, pushing me on this -. I do not remember. Well, I mixed it up... well, Primorsk.... I told you right away, that is the place. What can I do? HW 53216 DBoctld:32404703 Page 36
© oa - A. Well, I do not understand how a man who has always lived in the Soviet Union, in Moscow, and has -—= as I mentioned -- all of your merits -~- on the basis of which you should know -- does not know where he was and how he could receive letters in the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray.... B. Primorsk, Primorsk. A.  ...When he did not work in Sovetsk, and there never was a Primorskiy Kray ((A gives B Volume 19 of the Bol'shaya Sovetskaya Entsiklopediya and asks him to read from page 425, on Kaliningrad.)) B. ((Reads:)) "Kaliningrad, (until 1946, Konigsberg) -- a city, capital of Kaliningrad Oblast RSFSR.... Kaliningrad became a part of the USSR on the basis of the Berlin Conference of 1945.... On 4 July 1946, the city was given the name of M. I. KALININ, one of the leaders of the Communist Party in the Soviet state."- A. KALININ, Kaliningrad; well? B. Kaliningrad. A. Kaliningrad; right? B. Right. A, Now, read about Kaliningrad Oblast. B. ((CReads:)) "Kaliningrad Oblast =<- an oblast of the RSFSR. Established, 7 April 1946, on the ancestral lands of the true Baltic Slavs...." A. That is enough; we do not need any more; it is only general information. B. Make any conclusions you wish. I was in the place which I showed you -=— Primorsk; why I said Sovetsk, HW 53716 ‘Docld: 32404703 Page 37
HW 532716 rr Eg = 35 - Primorskiy Kray, I do not know. Do you know how many settlements and ‘toms called Primorsk there are in the Soviet Union? I do not know. You do not know? I have counted them. Well? There are more than 70 in the Soviet Union; which Primorsk were you in? That which... that, that which, where the MRP of the Fourth Fleet was... not far from Baltiysk. I can show you where it is right away. You told me that you were in that Primorsk and in that Sovetsk which is located in Primorskiy Kray; now I do not understand, because there is no Primorskiy Kray. Right. I told you, the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; why, I do not know. I have in mind this Primorsk, here; that is all. Let us talk logically. Every Soviet man -=— we will not mention counterintelligence, higher education, etc, <= who has graduated from high school probably will know that there never was a Primorskiy Kray in the West and that Kaliningrad Oblast was. formed from Konigsberg; and everyone knows why, and in whose honor it was named, I just want to understand == are you playing around with me, or do you DoclId:327404703 Page 36
HW 532716 SECR @ jc. @ really not know and.not know even the ABCs? Why should I play around with you when you have enough documents and you always can find out and check it? | Why should I play around? What a strange questbn that is! I think that perhaps I made a great error in giving you the documents -- maybe we could have talked without them =~ because last time you said the same thing; you denied everything and insisted.... Well, what can I do, if it was in my memory -=- as I said -- Sovetsk Primorskiy Kray. I have in mind the Primorsk in which the MRP was located. Well, in what other cities were you while you were serving there? ((Pause)) I was in Baltiysk. Others. Kaliningrad; that is all. How many times were you in Kaliningrad, before your permanent assignment there? One time; I flew in, in 1945; it was not Kaliningrad at that time -—- it was Konigsberg. Konigsberg; when you worked in Baltiysk, how often did you visit Kaliningrad? Well, perhaps I went there one time. How much time did you spend in Baltiysk itself? Or how often were you there’? DoclId:327404703 Page 39
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404703 Page 40 I was in Baltiysk when I arrived there for the first time; and aside from that I went over twice to see Commander-in-Chief GOLOVKO; that is all! And after that, where were you all the time? I was in Primorsk all the time, at the MRP. Well, tell me -= what is Primorsk; how big is the town? It is an absolutely wrecked, absolutely wrecked town. It is a very small, small town. It was a small settlement (naselennyy punkt); its people -- I have in 4 mind Germans -— were fishermen. Explain to me why, the last time, you argued with me -- "What are you telling me? I received letters at the city of Sovetsk, Pr imorskiy Kray!" Well, look -= in my memory, I have "the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray"; that is all. Why? Well, we will return to this letter. Like the rest of the military personnel, you received letters at the military unit; how were the letters addressed to you by your friends, relatives, parents? In different ways, to the Far East and here. Well, how did they address them... well, "here ((Sovetsk))"? Well, "here" -= according to my memory, as I told you in my memory... I do not remember. My memory retains "City of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray, Military Unit such-and=such, ((B's full name))'"' -- well, I made a mistake here; I am