pod Ho il i a | 2it iP H : 2] ol . N 'y ~~ | a = 2 4 = : a: ~ ft N i 1 . 1 a , 1 a & \ ~ H ~ i e - ial . V \ oo” 2002% ob.e, 9) TOIT, ~ 4 OA CHTHC ho WUTEDTNG, i S.U, REPORTERS OO tn w@ (3) ION 7TH STREET, “a P) t + oO A Docld:32263409 Page fH ine) ey CONFIDENTIAL (Thereupon, at 2:30 o'clock, p.m., the takince of the (T ion of Raymond G. Rocca continuec.) ct ct Ha ad fn 3 io) ty He} }4 ‘3 WQ ) Mr. Goldsmith. I believe tha discussed the cuestion of whether the Agency was givina the Warren Commission the complete information on the telepnone tap operation of the Mexico City station. I believe that your testimony was that that information was made available to the Commission. Mr. Rocca. The substance, as far as I know. Mr. Goldsmith. Was vour testimony also to the effect that the Warren Commission specifically’ was told about the telenhone tap operation? Myr. Rocca. At what time? At any time during the whole thing? Mr. Goldsmith. Well, when, to the best of your recollection, were they told about that? Mr. Rocca. .In my opinion, it could not have sat very long without Mr. Dulles having told them himself as a member of the Commission. I don't know the exact Gate the “were informed of the materials. | It had to be very early because everyone understood that this material was of a highly sensitive nature which had to be protected. rt orinated with a telephone tap. You could just talk with Siawson and your eyes would be bugging out as he understood everything. 125 Ab
; CONFIDENTIAL 125 Ta. So, whether it‘s in Januarv or March -- at a certain | | stace certainly there was no cuestion because they Gid the | Ho 2 | actual taps, and they were asking them where ars the cricinals aan ane stuff of that kine. “e had to explain why there were by > ie no originals, that they had been erased, and that kind of thine. i i! : : i a | Rut as far as I know, this was not done in writing. It was | & | Gone verbal} ly, in conversations S aan But what the exact aate was fF cannot min down. e i. Mr. Goldsmith. “We saw, for examrl the Slawson~-C ‘olen ¢ = io memo that you examinec this morning which succested that = aan as of 1 April, 1964 Slawson and Coleman did not know of the ; F 2 telephone operation: either that or they were affirmatively ¢ ~ 4 misinformed about the Agency naving “observed Oswald." = | T would like to show vow CIA number 2144. ! = | Dlease ex mine this document. = i i | (Pause) aoa a cat , - Mr. Rocca. This is one cf the very early pieces. | | z S| Mr. Goledsmith. Let me ask you the question. and “vou a i , = ts | ; ; = || will get a chance to exnlain that. a | ° 20 | Mr. Rocca. “ell, F can't explain it, obviously. Beno ; Mr. Goldsmith. Can you identifv this document for |  ) a re | the record? Simply, what is it? . | Mr. Rocca. This is an outgoing cable in the GP Floor |, | phase. At the time the “estern Hemisphere Divisicn was 1 . . } an Ty responsible. for the general ccordination, outgoing materials ‘| , CONFIDENTIAL our -_ : ‘ REPORTING COMPANY, INC. : Docld: 32263409 Paye 126 AL
2 fa 4 - ! w | pie « = BY > ~ ! ~ i i | wn \ wt 3 | ~ i ~ , ; i] 7 ~ fo ~ | _ oot Ca zs : = w = 1 ™ i ‘ : a Fa 7 ~~ fay “ 4 =~ 19 = = ty ! ~ | = i wl : eed i.) 7” ai : : ee t = — +4 a tw “ t = t = :,! = Ts Gf iad } a \ = } ae 1 Ga te = bed Cc ae . oe t = =z 2 i té ~ i - - - “ i7 a ~~ “a 3200 7TH STREET, t2 as "4 Sty Als QS d td t Docld:32263409 Paye 127 “presumably by aly I judge that it was Gate of it is 20 December, hority of Mr. Helms, cr au Mr. Golasmitn. What's the date on this? 29 12632 Mr. Rocca That's correct. Myr, Goldsmith. According to the first naragr incicates that the Agency's oresent plan in vassing i to Narren Commission is to eliminate mention of telen tavs in order to protect their continuing operations. “Will rely instead on statements of Silvia Duran,” et et cetera, an you explain this first paracraph in any w Mr. Rocca. Well, Mr. Whitten has to explain It is certainly, in any case, by the time January came and the Warren Commission beqan to onerate, this had lonc Mr. So, this was not the oneratinc policy by the time the Warren Commission was in. full gear? Mr. Rocce. As far as I'm concerned, this was not. This. was one of those early representations of sources and methods anc their protection, which was simpiv unrealistic. Mr. Goldsmith. -Is it fair to say that this document is another example f the Agency's concern to protect sources and methocs as authorized by -~- well, not necessarily as CONFIDENTIAL ALDERSOM REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 126
‘ 1 ( i j | i - | - i | ' e a 7 3 eg | of i il on » 3 w $ | ~ = | CS = 7 | -— _ 4 ~ i = i = . J = li | = q 2 ti >. tl = +3 i ts u = ta il = 13 | = | = ya is 4 2 i i Bi a HI & ya! 13 | ~ nr] . } be = : | n” ! = 1s ~ ! ¢ = 20 | t ee) + ea al : @ : a * 4 4 oP) re) rm a u a ab | | | i | | | i i i ‘| i i DocId:32263409 Page 128 | 127 CONFIDENTIAL authorized by law, ‘it was authoriz - Recca. As Mr 1t was interpreted in those times. Io think that the intermretation has chanced, probably as a result'of this epi AS Mr $ - Goldsmith. Fine. i Did ‘the CIA ever obtain a tape recording of Harvey Oswalc's voice? Mr. Rocca. As far as I know, there was no tare recording ever preserved. 5 : It was erasec, in other words, the telenhone taps. | { Mr. Goldsmith. The question is did the Acency ever obtain a tape recording of Oswald's voice? : ! i t 4 i i ' { ‘ i | { { i i | I ! J i i Mr. Rocca. The answer to.the question is yes. sir. Goldsmith. Fine. Now you anticinatec me guite correctly. - At the time of the assassination, cid the Agency have in existence a tane recorcing of Oswald's voice? Mr. Rocca. To the pest of my knowledoe, no. Mr, Goldsmith. j’hen had the tape recoxdinc of Cswald' voice been obtained? Mr. Goldsmith. Some time in the earlier period which we have reviewed this morning. Mr. Goldsmith. Between September 27, 1963 and Cctober first or second, roughly? CONFIDENTIAS ALDERSON SEPORTING COMPANY, INC 1H eee ece ee ee ee eee ee
CON FID td tv NTIA ~a Mr, Rocca. Yes, ves. 2 ; 1 | And, it hac been erased sometime during the period -- l ; ; } a4 0 ~ i during the bseguent i = hefor h : < i ng the subsequent period, and before the whole evisode ' H ! } generated. . 2 | | a a M x ; 4 1 x 32 | ~ | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why the tape recordins 1 w 4 - i was erased? [ ~  t = ~ { ~ | Mr. Rocca. This was by standard order of vrocedure, =: - 4 , a H x 3 | S , according to the peoole on. the spot and in charge of the 1 : t = ; operation, who are in a better position to testify to this 3 j Matter tnan I am. = reo : i = i In particular, the man wno has written a kook -- + oo | Mr. Goldsmith. Davie Phillips. = i Mr. Pocca. -- David Phillips. When.I was working = if : i ~ 1 i = ie | 1 c 44 + : tii | 3 i on behalf of Mr. Belin's interest in compilinc those twe ¢ 1 papers, let me acc that the whole matter of the time larse ; = i - = 16 4 : x | dia come up in my Giscussion with Phillips in trying to = | - ° ~ “ 7 i a account. for why did it take until the seventh ~-- aid we Giscuss road ts ‘ . = SoH. : ! = | this this morning? I recalled at lunch that this was a ~ W matter that I had seized on myself. And therefore, he was 4 , } | Givision chief at that time -- strike the therefore -- when a1 4 i ed aie ~! 4 I talked with him in '75. I had a number of CGiscussions ™ i with him on points relative to the technique that was used 23 Z4 Now whether he was in a nosition to give testimony ; . : . . . of-his own knowledge or whether it was his belief, I cannot say. t | | t , } - t t in the handling of the tapes, because he was there at the time. : | t i t CON FPYIJDENTIAT i | a) ALDERSON RESCRTING COMPANY, IN
if 4 i 3N0 7TH STREET, SW. REPORTERS BUTEDTNG, WASHTUGTON, DLC. 2002" €202) 854-2445 yy 4 mm} x XN DoclId: 322763409 “ 7. rr oS in rv w wo iu ~~ oe | on “Qa n> nr my tn Page 130 CONFIDENTIAL 129 But his statement to me, at the time, as I asked him the specific cuestion, what hanzened to the voices -- it was erased anc it was normal that that be done within a cycle of pene a | five to six days. That is my recollection. Leis Mr. Goldsmith. Would the purpose of erasing the tape simply be so that the tave could be reused ae] Mr. Rocca. th Q He) t re) +e) Exactiy. Thev had a large traf they nhac to accommodate. T iD a re is in addition to Mr. Phillins his chief of office at that time who also vas there and who woulc know the Mr. Soldsmith. That would ove Herb Mannel? Mr. Rocca. No. it's a fellow with a Latin name. Mx. Goldsmith. In charge of which operation in wnen Mr. Phiilios 3 0) - Mr. Rocca. He was Chief of © tr was chief of WE in 1975. ‘ ir. Goldsmith. Oh, in 1975. Mr. Rocca. He later went out to become chief of well, you can create the entire order of that. Mr. Goldsmith. Let me show you another document dated November 23, 19653, addressed to James 7. Rowley, who was Chief of the U.S. Secret Service at that time, from Jd. Edgar Hoover. ‘he document deals with the assassination of Presicent | CONFIDENTIAL ALDERSON SEPORTING COMPANY, INC.
Cc oO NF IDEN TIAL ; i Jcehn F. Kennecy in Dalles, Texas, November 22, 12943, ii 2 | iwill nave this markea as an exhibit. Fl . - 2] ° | 7 (Tne Gocument referred to was marked Rocca.Exhibit © a ° 1 number 2.) 0 . | a 3 i - ., _ 5 1 ~ | Mr. Golasmith. If I wantec to substitute a better wt { + : ‘ . ' | copy.of that at some later time, is there any problem in ~ j - a S i ~ 7H - I; Going that? o ou : < | The Revorter. Not that I know of, sc long as they = 4 axe icentical. = 10 4) ; S 4 Mr, Goldsmith. Okay. = fi ; = | Turning to vage 4 of this document, I would like to x a ” i ask you to read the paragraph that starts at the bottom of = | page and continues on to the next page. a i (Pause) S F Mr. Goldsmith. Eave you had a chance to reac that = i rd u = 3 = paragraph? a oz ll oan | Mr. Rocca. Uh-huh. 5.3 | | 5 } ir. Goldsmith. That paraqraoh, I Selieve, makes = rey : . a . _ ~ I reference to a tape recording that was orovidec to tne 5 e H : S 20 | i by the CIA and Mr. Hoover is inéicating that some agents sai ~—Coils sof the FBI had reviewed that teve recording which, althou¢ = on 1 : a Ro, . - : @ oo. |} it was vurported to contain a recoréine of Oswald's voi i} . | the agents were of the opinion that it was not, in fact 24 | . | Oswald. zi ; { De vou know anvthing about that tape recorcing? 4 ve -. i . : : CON FIDENTI AT, 4 DoclId: 322763409 Page 131 39 the!
i Docla: 32263409 Page 132 (202) Ss5-2345 20024 STON, DLC, REPORTERS BUTEDTNG , Cal arcne . Cs Pe) | 200 ITU STREET, vA “St « AS f Ves tx /; y) q} 1 t-. fe ) wo tin oo ana cae ~ _ ; oo ~~ oO dss ve to Ta > > an nw t & me fae 131 io) Oo a hy HH gO td Ue | tH yo ts Mr. Rocca. i regard this as a total mixup of various leads, inaccurate, and reflecting at the moment -~ 23rd ta November ~- no one had sorted out anvthing. I think thi ba collapses of its own weight or the sis of the evidence. Mr. Goldsmitn. Dic the Acency ever have a tane recordi of someone whom it thoucht te be Oswalé, and it turned out that the tape recording was, in fact, not of Oswald? Mr. Rocca. Not to my knowledge. Not to my knowledce. Not to my knowledge Cirectly or incirectly. I have “A never heard of. such, because this was one of the things that I triecé very hard to establish -- that is, was there any cortus Of evidence that coulée be associated ¢ Oswald in the oricinal things: I always drew a blank. Mr. Goldsmith. What did you do to try to establish Mr. Rocca. Asking pecple anout it, whether it existec. or not. ‘Myr. Goldsmith. Did you talk to Win Scott about that AS) in Mexico City Mr. Rocca. No, no. I never talked to Win Scott durin 4 he verioc at a ct t wb ol 4 tion to, and I heve no recollection of havine done it re) pos j later on when he visited.. But it may very well have come up =~ — iQ . ie was. down there. After all, I was not in:
de ta 65u-2905 (2n2) a | to hea 20024 re A, a 1) oOo YOu, n WASH UM BULEDTHG, REPORTERS aM, s i . i voice, 3 | a) HI STREET, nn 7TH | 4 erased. i { 4 if 4 Docld:32763409 Paige 133 to have | i | | Giving it evice i t 4 | specifically vcaragraph number two. For Mr, part that as second !- as first tape had } rv i CONF DENTIAL ,) 132 \. t | | | again, it's the photcgraph -- I would sav you are go oing kind of to sort this of thing out “ ntial value. Please review CIA number fa - Mr. Goldsmith. the recorc, this is a cable dated 23 uarters from Mexico Citv. (Pause) Mr. Goldsmith. Have you had a chance to paragraph? Mr. Rocca. Paragraoh three? Mr, Goldsmith. No, two. (Pause) Mr. Rocca. Yes. It bears out what I was saving earlier. Goldsmith. The varagraph indicates in station was unable to comeare vcice, first tape had call. Is question is as follows. that 1) in fact, on November 23, 1993, in existence. because the author of the hb Rather, Q fy ct o ”n comnare I Oo MeANY, AL ING. re one of very. carefully before November, review that Oswa prior to the receipt it reasonable to the cable doesn't Levant 4 t i t i 1 | i : i i ' | 1943 | | ald's voice receirt of second
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