10 11 12 13 ‘14 - 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Re 23 24 25 DoctId: 39493519 Page 49 to achieve this same result. ~~. Se i — TOP SECKET 46 big market in the United States, then it doesn't cost any money, ‘it makes money. Mr. Miller. Well, one of the key problems, would depend on the propaganda. If it is a stocessful propaganda job, there is a strong likelihood you are going to have a £lowback into the United States.. If it is a crummy propaganda job, it is not going to flow pack to the United. States and it won't be - noticeable. Mr. Bader. This prohibition would go to such things as the Penkosky papers, the book on the KGB, the Barron | book. It would have some marginal use, but you are absolutely. right, Senator, I first experimented with language that conclude that the Agency should be prohibited from all covert ‘English language books and: Literature. . Senator Mondale. What about an additional sentence that moreover, the CIA should be prohibited from indirectly seekin to accomplish the same objective by publishers, etc., located any manner’ in a way which was designed directly or indirettly That's still -- Senator Hart of Colorado. : still think "no funds shall | be used. " | Oo - | | tied Senator Mondale. Yes, but I think that what we are trying | to find out is to the fullest extent possible, and Kirbow's point, that the objective is really a clever way of doing the TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 18 19 20 el 22 £5 24. £9 eT, Naan TOP SECRET a7 same thing by indirection as we are trying to say you can't do that; where it is for the purpose of foreign readership alone it is ‘not prohibited. Mr. Kirbow. You are trying to prevent everything but the incident fallout, which if it is printed in the English language it is obvious you can bring it back. Senator Mondale. You can't do that. The only thing you can do if you want to prevent that is prohibit it. Senator Huddleston, Or you can have a bookburning. “Senator Mondale. Well, I think they do that at the Agency, you know, like with Marks and Marchetti and Agee. They already do that. | | Mr. Aaron. Well, I think the one we have to be concerned about is, for example, the. Chilean White Book. Mr. Kirbow. The what? Mr.Aaron. The Chilean White Book, the book published” by the Chilean junta after it came to power, in English, with the support and assistance of the CIA, which found its way | into the United States and. which it is hard to conceive that one of its purposes wasn't for the junta to be able to distribute this propaganda item within the United States as well as other English speaking countries. | - Senator Schweiker. When you say "found its way" what ‘kind of circulation or volume are you.talking about? Mr. Aaron. I'm not too clear about that. I know it was TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 Page 50) :
TOP SECRET 8 1 basically put out by the Chilean embassy. YOu I:now, they £ llgot it, it was in English, they sent it around all over Washing- o |lton. 4 Senator Huddleston. Well, I think we all understand what 5 |lwe want to accomplish. It is just a matter of trying to -- 6 | Mr..Kirbow. Well, Mr. Chairman, since we recommended 7 jlover to the next committee to do the language itself, I think | 8 |lwe should just make our intentions clear, that the language can 9 |be put into whatever law they pass. We are just saying that 10 by statute it should be done. | , —— il ' Senator Huddleston. Well, what if you added to this thing,|// 12 || by statute there should be no. subsidy to or distribution of © 13 any book, I think we can change that, there should be no 14 || subsidy. to the production of or distribution, to writing, 15 production or distribution of any book, magazine or publication | (16 ||not attributed to the CIA inside the United States or its 17 territories, wherever that book might be published. a 7 18 Mr. Maxwell. There is one problem with the way that is | 19 phrased now, Senator. That is, you would. in effect be - 20 prohibited, a subsidy for publication overseas unless -- a 21 subsidy for production and dissemination. 22 a Senator Huddleston. What? 23 || Mr. Maxwell. The way you just phrased it would prohibit 24 any subsidy for production, which would prevent the CIA from doing 25 jj any production. TOP SECRET Docld: 32423519 Page 51- O . WARD & PAUL oO
no Pm oF MM oH (o>) . 10 ll 12 “13 14 15 16 17 18 19. 20 21 22 23 24 25° | and indirectly and place the responsibility ‘on. the Agency to TOP SECRET 4s -Senator Hart of Colorado. Well, since the staff -- [. think the staff understands what we are after. We are going to sit here for an hour arguing... Why can't they -dtaft what we want to come up with? Sanator Huddleston. I think you can prevent them. —— Mr. Aaron. We'll try to capture this concept of directly | do what it can. , en Senator Huddleston. ;, Good. 46? Mr. Aaron. Yes. i No. 46. -- 46 and 47 really should be read together. They go to the issue of the constraints to be placed on the use of media by the CIA, both tbr operational purposes and using institutions for covert cover purposes. In effect, this sets out a range of options that go from simply commending them to establishing the prohibitions in- law, ‘to going further, and pulling under these prohibitions categories of people who were left out by virtue of the fact . that they are not accredited. | Maybe you can expand on that, Bill. Mr. Bader. I think it should be said here that I have already read the CIA prohibition that they. came out with in February of '75, and that prohibition goes to the accredited U.S. journalist -- let me read the language ~- "to any paid TOP SECRET Docld: 32423519 Page 52 : . WARD & PAUL
TOP SECRET) — st 1 jor contractual relationship with any full time or part time "2 lnews correspondent accredited by any U.S. news service, newspaper, ae periodical, radio or television network or station. That 4 prohibition, as we see it, and the Agency agrees; after some 5 |llong discussion with the figures, involves. about one third of 6 |lthe relationships that the CIA now has to U.S. journalists. or 7 iemployees of U.S. media organizations. & | Senator Schweiker. Well,Bill, does this prohibit a guy 9 jlat CIA from hiring a guy from Reuters, and then Reuters plants 10 ja story and of course, Reuters gets planted back here? 11. Are we excluding that possibility here? le Mr. Bader. We are talking here, Senator, only about U.S.. 13 journalists and employees of U.S. media. 14 | Senator Schweiker. Well, what is U.S. and foreign? What 15 |}does foreign mean? 16 Mr. Bader. Where do you see "foreign?" 17) Senator Schweiker. Against any paid relationship with 18 U.S. and foreign journalists. What does that mean? 19 Mr. Schwarz. The foreign journalist. . 20 ' Senator Huddleston. ‘The foréign journalist would have to 21 |lbe accredited to a U.S. news organization. pe - Senator Schweiker. It wouldn't mean that Reuters got it. 23 _ Mr. Bader. It is credited to you as +- 24 || ‘Mr. Aaron. No. It would be Arnold Buschrow working for - 25 Newsweek. He is a foreigner working for U.S. news media. TOP SECRET DoclId: 32423519 PF e 53 : WARO & PAUL
‘10 il ie 13 14 15 16 “ay 18 19. 20 el. 22 23 pa 29 DoctId: 32423519 Page 54 $n TOP SECRET 8a Senator Hart.of Colorado. Is there any wa" to tighten up the definition of "journalists?" Mr. Kirbow. ‘Senator, that. is attempted in 7 to mean that: anybody who contributes to the final printed word in recommenda- tion 27. Mr. Bader. Senator Hart, on page 74 in a footnote we give the Agency's definition of what "accredited" means for a journalist. "Formally authorized by contract or issuance of press credentia]s to represent themselves as correspondents." That is about the best we have been able to do. And since the Agency uses. this terminology, we thought . our recommendations ought! to go to accepting their definition. and.then moving to those individuals in U.S. media organization who are not covered, if you will, under this prohibition of which in fact are the majority. So what we.are really talking about here are individuals who are not accredited, are administrative personnel in U.S. media organizations who arrange cover or CIA agents using media organizations as cover without accreditation, freelance writers or stringers, and what: this recommendation goes to is moving ‘the CIA prohibition to cover -- to cover all of those who have this relationship with U.S. media organizations. | Mr. Maxwell. Let me try to raise the question, then. The question is whether. there is language that would cover a TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL
10 ll 12 13 14 18 16 1 ‘le 19 20- el 22 25 24 29 Docld: 32423519 TOP SECRET i 33 { back here. Can't we cover that in. some. way because we have still got the same problem. | Mr. Bader. Well, the Subcommittee's recommendations didn't go to that. a | | Senator Schweiker. put that's a big loophole. Aren't we kidding ourselves to think that Reuters writes a dispatch that comes back here where some, whatever wire system buys it, and.we have a planted CIA story back here for domestic dissemination. Senator Huddleston. : I think the preponderance of the | . evidence, of the sectiadbe 0 at least, presented by the Agency people, would be that the! prime value of utilizing media organizations lies in not, the propaganda value and the question of planting stories as much as cover for agents. Mr. Maxwell. Well, would it be possible if, instead of going to the contractual ; you went at regulations on planting of stories in institutions such as Reuters, where there would bea feedback problem..- peemingly that could be done, rather than ignoring the question entirely, which the proposal does. | eaten ee Senator Schweiker. You could never police that one. Mr. Kirbow. What is' the record on the views of this? | Mr. Bader. On what? . Mr. Kirbow. On using Reuters for propaganda? Senator Schweiker. lvean, I used Reuters because there is TOP SECRET | oo, . WARD & PAUL age 56
10 Il le 13 14 15 16 17) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32423519 Page 57 TOP SECRET ss * an allegation against it wight now that they are doing spying ‘for. the CIA and that they are on the payroll for the CIA and | that their correspondents feed stories back here, Maybe inad- vertently, but Reuters is the case in point. Mr. Bader. The cals case in “point is, as I understand it, : a \ wy ye ae is they have not used Reuters. at Notes Say Ll Mr. diGenova. | And the CIA's position also is that they hav planted stories in the foreign press and they have no way of knowing how many. times stories have been reprinted in the United States. They have never tried to keep a record of it and they simply don't know how many stories planted in foreign news services have ever Heen reprinted in the United States. That was Mr. Karamessines' testimony here during Greece, the hearings on Greece. Mr. Madigan? Senator Huddleston. Mr. Madigan. I think we ought to consider, if we ban the use of. a foreign paper, to come back to the United states, |iwe would also, in fact, have to be limiting the Agency's propaganda overseas, necessarily. ‘There are two sides to the coin. While it might be beneficial to stop it from coming back here, it also inhibits it-. from going overseas. Mr. Maxwell. Well, |if you do it with those organizations, they'd have a substantial connection with U.S. media organiza- tions like Reuters, allow people to use it for cover, use Reuters for cover rather than for planting stories, then there TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL.
10 11 12 13 14 165 16 1? “ig 19 20 21 22 29 24 25 Docld: 32423519 Page 53 academics, if we reduce institutions, labor organizations, TOP SECRET ss i may be a tradeoff that you can do without crippling it, that effort. Senator Huddleston. (Well, what! s the thinking over here about whether we ought to include foreign ‘media? Senator Mondale. What is your recommendation? — Senator..Huddleston. Well, I think we have got to, number | one, look at the total stope of our recommendations and limit | the extent to which we are reducing sources of our intelligenc collection operation. » Lf we proceed with the premise that we all said at the beginning that we need intelligence operations, we have got to' give them some room to operate. If we reduce i t I students, media and publishing companies and whatever, we will finally get down to the point where we are not left enough to carry on an effective operation. ‘I personally feel like we ought to address: ourselves to the United States media.” Se _ Senator Mondale. Accredited? Senator Huddleston. Accredited media. Of course, I ‘personally favor including the editors and - the executives of these organizations. Senator Mondale. Is that what the 47. brackets does? Senator Huddleston. 47. Mr. Inderfurth. Is that where by law the prohibitions shoul be extended, or are you just saying the Committee should? TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL
TOP SECRET 56 1 Senator Huddleston. Tim inclined to favor the law. a . Senator Mondale. well, why don't we ‘move ‘46 and 47 to o |jsee what happens? ae. ee cm Re ft 4 ‘Senator Huddleston. “ALL right, it-is so moved. And we eee Pa eet usenet : tata swe sue revere. ernment AQP gay 5 will see what happens. Mr. Madigan. well, in 47, the language the way it is written, it would preclude some of these op ed pieces to the New York rimes. I am not sure that you want to make that “con- tributes material." It is so broad that it would prohibit | any -- Mr. Miller. For example? Mr. Madigan. Anybody that wrote op ed. pieces. If you wrote one and I wrote one’ that was printed in the New York Times -- | Mr. Aaron. I think you could fix this by saying, "regularly U contributes." I think the thought is less one that any of us who may. have sent a letter to the Times, for that matter. 18 Senator Huddleston. Well, it should be "contributed." 19 r don’ 't know whether remuneration is the key or not, ‘but it 20 ||}should be part of the person's regular operations or work, 21 |lshouldn't it? 22] - Mr. Bader. Mike, would "regularly" help? 23 | | Mr. Madigan. Yeah, I think "regularly" would cure that. 24 Senator Huddleston. All right, what is the vote on 25 146 and 472 TOP SECRET Docld:324273519 Page 59 WARD & PAUL
TOP SECRET gg. Senator Schweiker. Well, wait. when you say regularly, what does that’ mean? i” | | : Mr. Madigan. My concern, which must: number in the hundreds for sure, if not thousands, who for one time in his life has written a piece that appeared in-the New York Times or the Boston Globe or some other paper. Mr. Maxwell. So William Colby wouldn't be covered by this. Senator Schweiker. Well, I thought we were not covering it when we say the CIA connection. Shouldn't we make that distinction? In other words, as long as you identify the guy |fas a former CIA or pretant CIA guy, I don't think he should be limited in any way. I think the issue ought to be whether . | you identify whether he was with the 1 Agency as opposed | to whether he contributes regularly or irregularly. | Mr.diGenova. I think “operational use" implies clandestini y. Mr. Schwarz. Well, aren't you talking about two different things?’ In 45 you were talking about secret subsidies for publication. In 46 and 47 you are talking -- you are worried about the use of people connected with the media in some substantial way. | Mr. ‘Aaron. That is correct. This is not going to the question of using journalists for propaganda purposes. This is the use of journalists in operational activities, be they ‘covert action or espionage. Top SECRET Docld: 32423519 P ge 60 WARD & PAUL
TOP SECRET ss 1 Senator Huddleston. 46 and 47 are moved. 2 Is there objection? 5 Senator Mondale. I move 4g. 4 Mr. dicenova. I bring up one point. We don't talk about 5 || films in here. | 6 | Should we talk about films? There are lots of films on 7 Vietnam that they produced which are shown. | . 8 | Senator Mondale. All right, "and films" in.45. | _ 9 Senator Schweiker. Yeah, I'll buy that. | 10 Senator Mondale. I move 48. | 1 senator Schweiker. | We1l, can we put "films" in 45? 12 Senator Mondale. Yeah, that's in there. 13 Mr. Aaron. Yeah, if you are going to apply to: ‘all of the “14 media ,. you could put in “video ." Video is more important 15 || than film. 16 |) ’Mr. Kirbow. Mr. Chairman, I would Like | to ask that. a 17 ||record be obtained from the Agency on the. film aspect if we “18 include it. = er —_ mee 19 Senator Mondale. WE11, let's put it in and then ask for 20 a response from_ the Agency. — | | Pal Mr. diGenova. Of course, if we haven't, done it, we don't. 90 want to recommend that they do it. | 23. | Senator Mondale. Well, we know they made a film on: 24 ||Sukarno's life, what did they call it? 25 | Mr, Schwarz. Ha ppy Days. TOP SECRET : All: ARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519 Page 62 w
10. 11 1e 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 |] 29 Docld:32423519 Page 63 the Agency, the view as to whether ‘that should be sanitized, TOP SECRET) lw Senator Mondale. Well, we are talking abont attribution. in 45. ae ocean) As .interpreted by the Committee, what does "prohibition" | | mean? "“Prohibition"? ‘Mr. Aaron. This is the interpretation of what the CIA has done. Tt is a little complicated. | - | Mr. Miller. We should spell it out. Senator Mondale. Why. don! a3 you spell it out, .tentatively ete nent — aeertenennnmnti ven ee = adopt it and. then: take. a _pook at the _language. | ee mete oon Lag een ae Mr. Madigan. This is the wrong bill number. It is 2784, sont oe Soret ee not 2284, | Senator Mondale. Well, the staff can work that out later. Senator Huddleston. - , This is prohibition against. the use of religious personnel. :; Mr. Madigan. I would like to raise one other concern that. Senator Baker has in that this whole section, including the parts that are in the academic section in terms of describing: books. that were Sponsored by the CIA, that we at least hear NLM @ ENC Ng -. ea an REE cathe: wea pace Ont ID AE: SP Nene epee a _ nore ne ate OMT hate agg hme, teste me ee as to the life of the ‘person who wrote the book . eeereend resect, eat acne renee AS: BE he MOET FATS dD. Aree! Rh oe TS I have talked. to Mr. Bader as to whether they should be camouflaged enough as to whether that could be figured out, but the Agency feels different about it. Senator Huddleston. Well, the Agency will have an oppor- ~ tunity to review all of this. TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL ~
end 4a 9 2gin'-4b LO 11 - 12. 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 21 29 24 25 Docld: 32423519 Page 64 to whether it should be disclosed publicly or classified. tOP SECRET rs Mr. Bader. They have seen the longer manuscript, and they now have the principal findings and they have’ responded, and they do want changes in references to books. Mr. Madigan... this” doesn't go to substance. This goes _ MR. Bader. I understand. Senator Huddleston. Are we prepared to:move on, then, to proprietary organizations? Senator..Mondale. Right. Mr. Aaron. All right, now, the only question that remains in the text on the section on cover relates to the discussion of the Station Chief in Greece, Mx. Welch, and there was some concern whether in light of the Agency's: continued use of this case, in Light- of ‘the way they have treated this particular case, and continue to treat it, whether the Committee should :not in fact say more about it since their position for the Committee and their position:at least as reported in the press, seems to. be quite at variance with one another. I would leave it to the Committee to instruct us one way or the other _ on that particular point. | Senator Huddleston. Do you see an ob3 tothe final | Page 83? We have tried and revised that reference to Mr. Welch to take out tn implication, actually, that the. loss of his cover contribited to his death, even though the CIA itself has implied that on a number of occasions. Their own TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL
"OP SECRET 62 investigation to date reveals no evidence at al}. that’ anything to do with his cover or lack thereof contributed to his death, and we don't want to say that. Senator Mondale. That's good. In other words, the question is, the decision to move into that house, and he did it anyway.. Senator Huddleston. . In fact, they have covered that themselves. As a matter:of fact, I think the State Department has announced it is going! to discontinue listing its agents. ; 4 ; 10 ||\The fact is that there is} no cover for a working on the payroll = . . 11 || chief of station for the |CIA for anybody that can read. 12 Senator Mondale. And as I understand it, for old CIA 13 || types, this is a fight that they have been waging for 25 years. 14 || They have been complaining ‘that the cover isn't worth a damn. 15 || This is not new. 16 Mr. diGenova. That's right, Senator, and in fact, the 17 || paper, the longer paper on covert deals with that issue, includihg 1g || the study which is summarized on page 82, which says that the 19 Agency has for years had a loose, a lax and a really a lack of 20 comprehensive theory and policy for dealing with the whole issue| _ 2] | of cover. 22 Now, the problem with that is we wrote all that out, 93 || dealt with it ina very |evenhanded manner. The Agency's 04 || position is that they want nothing written about cover because it isa method , nothing at all written about cover, and yet | TOP SECRET | WARD & PAUL 20 DoclId: 32423519 FP
TOP SECRET 63 1 |ithey continue to use the death of Mr. Welch publicly, including 2 in Sunday's magazine section of the Post, ‘and they put it very 5 funnily in the intelligence section of Parade Magazine. There 4. was. a large section on George Bush and “the conclusion reached 5 l|l\from the article was that the exposure of Mr. Welch's name, — 6 that the. publication of his name led to his death. It says. 7 that in there. And that is clearly not the position of the 8 agency before the Committée. | | | 9. As David’ said, they are taking a. position that his exposure 10 lin the press had nothing to do with his death as far as they _ 11 || know. ‘It was probably terrorist activity, but they would have 12 |lno way of knowing one Way /OF the other. But they continue | 13 |}to take the position including that unauthorized briefing at | 14 |} the Agency on the Israeli nuclear capability, that Mr. Welch's 15 |ldeath was due to his ‘cover. 16 it think the Committeé has to. decide what it wants to say 17 regardless of their feeling about cover, .in order to put to 18. rest these allegations. | 19 Senator Mondale. When in here we don't disclose the 20 present method of cover. We'don't -- we don't say what it el ‘is so that's certainly not blowing any cover that they have, 22 ||and we also- point out that the record shows that Welch was 23 |} warned and disregarded it. 24 . So I think that is good judgment to put that in there. £5 Senator Huddleston. Mr. Madigan? TOP SECRET Docld: 32423519 ge 66 WARD & PAUL -
‘TOP SECRET as 1 . Mr. Madigan. Senator: Baker has.a reservat:.on about Mr. I 2 Welch. He feels, I chink ‘that the Committee “ought. to distance Ps) itself from that. whole instance, and leaving aside the arguments 4 ||I just heard from Messrs, Aaron and diGenova,. whom I normally’ - 8 llagree with, the fact is no one knows who killed Richard Welch, — 6 and until you find out who killed him, if that person wrote 7 jit in that magazine, then: there is a connection, and no: one - 8 ||knows who killed him so no one knows whether there is a connec- 9 tion or there isn't a connection. 10 And my problem with ‘this paragraph is the fear that it 11 |jwill be interpreted by tHe press asa "statement by the Committee 12 || that it wasn't because his. name was published, because we hj 13 |}don't mention that -- jhe 14 {| . Mr. diGenova. We dq, in the larger report. i | 15 i Mr. Madigan. Well, we don' t in this paragraph, and it is 16 lan issue that I think we ‘should keep as greata distance from 17 ||aS possible. en eee 18 " Mr. Aaron. Well, I'd like to say there are kind of two 19 ||\different issues here. One is the fact -- is whether the lack 20 o£ cover had anything to ido with his death. I think we just 21 ||don't deal with that issue. That's not something -- we didnjt PP) investigate it and we dont pretend to deal with it. 23 The second question |is whether he had any cover, and it 24 |lnot, why not, and the record before this Committee is just 25 ||perfectly clear on that point, that his lack of .cover had to a) Top SECRET TY Docld: 32423519 Page 67 WARD & PAUL
: od TOP SECRET 65 1 with the fact that he was living in the house of the former 2 station chief, that he was a station chief, station chiefs don't 3 |/have any cover, and so forth and so on.” That's a point that 4 ||\is worth making. It is important. 5 |} Senator Mondale. Well, now; Mr. Chairman, why don't 6 we tentatively leave it in the report, and when the final 9 {|lreport gets out, maybe those who strongly object to this can g ||be heard and we can finally decide. 9 Can we get on? Can we do that and then get on to the “10 || recommendations? - 11 | Senator Huddleston. | I'll agree with that. 12 We might ~-- we might be able to accommodate some of 13 || Senator Baker's objections. - — oO un 14 Mr. diGenova. - Well} in the text I would just like to note 15 one thing. ' There is a word missing on top of 81, and the 16 word "sometimes brought" in between those, the words "sometimes 1) brought" should be "unsucgessful.." | 18 Mr. Kirbow. I would just like to make a suggestion about 7 ‘49 on af, all of us know the ones that were brought before the 20 Subcommittee and concerned the former draft to the Agency. — 21 I think there is evidence, both in the public record and private 22 that there were . two former directors who attempted to use 923 || their influence on behalf of airlines. One is a former Senator 24 from California and one iS a former Director from California, i . 25 ||Mr. McCone. I think after the word "on one occasion" I think , ; WARD & PAUL , Docld: 32423519 Page 63
10 11 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 Rl 22 23 24 25 |} fo | TOP SECRET és { we should say "one or more". That kind of indicates there has been a problem of former ‘senior people at the Agency trying to come back. and influence them improperly. Mr. diGenova. Well,! there is only one thing. iI'm not’ arguing whether Mr. McCone did that or not. My record shows he did. But this indicates ‘this occasion dealt with the disposal of a propriety, and the other occasion dealt with influencing Agency. polity. to help PanAmerican Airlines. | It is not the same thing, but it does involve high level influence. But it is not the same thing as involving a proprietary... | Senator Huddlestons | I have: no objection to making it plural. : | Mr. diGenova. "one or more." Mr. Madigan. If it is clear McCone did it, why not mentio his name? | : | Mr. diGenova. We have agreed not to use the name.in this area. The names are in the broader reporter, however. Senator Huddleston. All right. ‘Can we go then to the recommendations on page 84? | | “Senator: Mondale. Any problem with these? These. are pretty good. Any objections? It looks good, Mr. Chairman. | 7 Ms. Culbreach. I have a question. Mr. diGenova. What about No. 60 on the cover? Since the _ TOP SECRET Docld: 32423519 Paige 69 WARD & PAUL
TOP SECRET 67 1 |iState Department has changed that, should we mention something 2 also about the oversight committee does something about that right 5 away? | oo a ‘Senator Huddleston. We have got a problem on 59 also. 5 Mr. Maxwell. My understanding is itis now for official 6 use only. It is not for sale. Do we want to go beyond that? _ - I 7 Senator Mondale.. Are we talking now about. the roster? 8 Mr. diGenova. ves, the Register and the biographical. 9 Senator Mondale. - that's in recommendation 60? 10 Why don 't ve go further and say it should not be published, 11 period? - oS | 12 —_ “Mr. Miller. It is Useful. internally. 13 - Senator. Mondale. well, let them argue that. We are getting! 140 a getting | a bad rap. thy) don't we just say they don't. 15 |} publish it, and than- et ‘then figure it out. 16 Mr. diGenova. Shall we put. “publication in any form, 1? a — 18 — Senator Mondale. _ There should be. no public distribution 19 or publication of personnel data. | 20° Mr. Aaron, why don't we just turn it around and say 21 || the Department_ of. State ‘should: classify personnel data which 22 facilitates, so and: so? OO — 23. senator Huddleston. | Okay. 24 ‘Is there any objection to that? 25 Mr. diGenova. This is the only time that the Committee TOP SECRET Doclda: 32423519 Page TO WARD & PAUL
10 11 12 13 14- 15 16 17 18 “19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld:32423519 Plage 71 "WARD & PAUL. ||determine the law as it relates to former.high officials or this, and it is 18 U.S.C. 281. In so many words, . they are. eens TOP SECRET co ‘recommends classification. Senator Huddleston. Well, just above that on page 85, No. 59, did you have something there, Charlie? Mr. Kirbow. Senator, I was asked by the Subcommittee to officials in the Department of Defense coming back and doing business with their military services or with the agencies,and the Department of Defense has furnished their regulation on prohibited for life, they prohibit by law for life the ability eeeeemetiae er ne eee eet te oy nee eo A, of.a senior Or | a a_regular military | officer from ever doing —: business in a contractual or-negotiating far sale ox that OO sort of thing with his ‘own military service, and for three a SE a eae a te a ee te oe — “ee eter eee ———— years with any other military service or the Department of Defense, Recommending to the oversight committee that they adopt something along that line is not only satisfactory to the | Agency, but -they welcome it because it would skip a lot of their: problems down. | Mr. Maxwell. Mr. Chairman, one other recommendation. Perhaps it ‘should read, by statute, former senior officials : -e—— A er patter, of the CIA, because certain former officials seems to point back to the text. which means those officials that might have sought improperly. Mr. diGenova. Of the CIA, after the word ' ‘officials." ree ae Mr. Kirbow. The other ‘thing is I think the oversight TOP SECRET
10 11 le 13 14 15 ' 18 19 20 21. ge. 25 24 290 Docld: 32423519 Page 72 - TOP SECRET 69 . committee may determine that you do not want to go down much below maybe the Deputy Director level or the. influence level. Mr. Maxwell. Well, they | can choose. that, when you say _— een SO Ane ee yo 5 senior officials rather than certain. Re re mee ttt tten em rereneensee ae en a ee Aten Mr. Schwarz. (‘Chatlie, shouldn't t “the other one say by. statute something or other should be done, and this one says. by statute, the oversight: committee should -- just make it conform. Senator Huddleston. All right, with that change, then, we are agreed on 59. Mr. Aaron.. All right,..the "certain" comes out, and the second "certain"? wee ee 7 OA Mr. Kirbow. Well; that reads now "by statute, former aenser( officials of the CIA should be prohibited from negotiating with". etc. Mr. Aaron. And just .strike the second "certain" and. say “other relationships should be prohibited such as," or shall we say "the oversight committee should do that," because we haven't really spelled out what they ought to be. Mr. Kirbow. I think that's where you pass it over... Mr. diGenova. The oversight committee should consider oN NR a a orem eee = a rrr ten men eee - = ne whether. . fiethepbtaiananenre ' Mr. Aaron. I think that takes us through these sections and if they are SO moved, then we can go on to the question of intelligence liaison. TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL
TOP SECRET 70 1 7 Senator Mondale. ‘So moved. 2. | Senator Huddleston. Moved and adopted. 5 We can move over. 4 Mr. Kirbow. Excuse ne, Mr. Chairman. 5 Would everyone agree here that this cover problem is so 6 great that we should not just say the CIA should undertake a ? |lthorough study of this butjgo straight to the National Security na 8 Council where _they could a have ‘some clout with the State Depart- 9 ment or otherwise in 61? _ 10 a Senator Mondale. That! Ss a good idea, yeas | uf Ms. Culbreath. Perhaps. we ought to say. that the NSC —_—_ le jjin consultation with ‘the cia and the State Department and tf rr ee 13 others. |} | | - 14 | - Mr. Aaron. They can't'|do it any other way. 15) Senator Mondale. that is good. 16 | All right, now, I move, Mr. Chairman, the recommendation. 17 62, 63 ana 64. : | | | 18 | Mr. Aaron. We have alquestion on 62. 19 Senator Mondale. why ds it there? 20 | Mr. Aaron. We have 4 |set of brackets for those. There is 21 ||a parenthetical statement | | 22 || very sensitive, clearly area of a relationship in the intelligen e | 23 || field and other intelligenée. services, and the recommendation The recommendation goes to a 24 |/is a general one requiring jor suggesting that the oversight ih tat 25 committee be informed on. these relationships. © We don't get- ToP SECRET WARD & PAUL 52 || Senator Mondale. Well, any don't we. just take the 23 || Vice Chairman's position? 24 Mr. Aaron. That the! whole section comes out? 29 Senator Mondale. Welll, we'll just have it-classified and TOP SECRET WARD & PAUL Docld: 32423519. Page 73
10 ‘ll “12 13 14 15 16 1 ‘1s 19 20 21 22 23 | 24 25 Docld: 32423519 send the letter classified, is a minimum. “ih Why argue about it? 72 Senator Huddleston. rt think if a case could be made, and I think if we attempt to talk about liaison we are going to im cause a lot of nervousness ‘with a lot. | foreign countries. “Maybe | there is -- just to classify this entir re “subject. Senator Mondale. you ‘cannot get : ih to do you any good anyway. | Mr. Aaron. Well, let ‘me see if I recommended. ; Is it recommended that ee naneenmmneemnnmunimnnaemns a et this be made ified? - of people in a-- specific enough understand what 62, 63, 64 and the entire lot of maybe it would be best publicly is being text of | oo ; Senator Mondale. Wel'll, the statute has to be public. r 4 a Mr. Miller. And the explanation of the problem on G Senator Mondale. Of course, that whole’ question, that. has to be worked out between the executive and the Committee anyway. ‘We are not going to handle that. Mr. Miller. That's right. Senator Huddleston. Well, let's for the time being adopt 1 t it as itis, and if the Agency has a strong case for classi- fication, then we can consider classification. I think 63 probably should be public. Senator Mandale. yeah) age T4 If they know how to pass a law TOP SECRET | “WARD & PAUL
LO ll 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 20 you, Mr. Aaron? ‘Charles? top SECRET | , privately, tell them to submit that, information. Mr. Schwarz. 63 ais’ is entirely consistent with the : position we have. a i | Mr. Aaron. I-am not sure where we stand. ' Mr. Kirbow. We are going to consider. the top of 87 through ee the bottom of 88, with ‘the! possible exception | of 63, with the mer wetter ossibili of remaining classified, possibility Senator Huddleston. |itf the Agency can convince ‘the Commit- ‘tee or present evidence to] the Committee that is persuasive, { that recommendation 62 sh uld be classified, recommendation, and 63 and 64 should. remain u ‘classified, does that make sense (to i Mr. Aaron, It does, indeed. Senator Huddleston. !:A11 right. The Inspector General.. | | Mr. Aaron. I don't believe there is any issue here save one, which I | will turn tdj.Mr. Kirbow to explain. rt goes to the question of whether he is nominated and confirmed by ‘the Senate and the extent to vhiich | it is necessary for him to report directly to the oversight committee. Am iI correct? Is that a proper statement of the issue, . a : Mr. diGenova. Page| 93, recommendation 73 is that “issue. Mr. Miller. Didn't. "te Senator Baker make a proposal? i Mr. Madigan. Senator !Baker's position was that ‘the General TOP SECRET Docld:32423519 Page 75 . ! | WARD & PAUL
10 li. 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21, ne 23 24 26 DocIa: 32423519 TOP SECRET fo “He 74 Counsel is a unique and powerful -- should be powerful position ; ie , and it should be confirmed’ by the Senate. Senator Mondale. That is consistent with Domestic. | 4 ‘ Mr. Maxwell. The General Counsel of all of the Departments lland the independent regulatory agencies are now confirmed by. the Senate. Senator Mondale. You’ also want: the Inspector General to be confirmed? . 1 Mr. Kirbow,. Not me, Sir, because I didn't want the other one confirmed. Mr. Maxwell. I think it was that the Inspector General should. not. be because you wanted) the Director should have his choice person. . | Senator Mondale. That. was the Domestic position. Senator Huddleston. “Any objection to the adoption of this? 7 | Mr. Schwarz. Elliot)'jhave you compared the words here with ours? a [, 4 he Mr. Maxwell. . They are generally compatible. | . I think that any differences are stylistic. Mr. Schwarz. I think they ought to be 100 percent compatible. . ds Ms. Culbreath. Yu can adopt ours. Senator Mondale. Well, at least you keep the momentum | ; : i going. “| OP SECRET : WARD & PAUL qe 76 ,