b> | that schotograph before her testimonv -- ~ 4 Going back to your question. 4 - . . . . H 7) Mr. Golcsmitn. That is not consistent with the : 1 i = i | Warren: Commission records. w 2 . . to : + 4. i “ ‘| Mr. Rocca. Well, it may well be. | | | S 7 . ~ + a x 7 | Mr.. Goldsmith. Let me show you CIA number 2139. | . = ~ | Would you please read that. | at 5 4 : i ~ ” i (Pause) font \ - ’ i} . : ! = oy _-Mr. Rocca. Is there an internal memorandum? = ‘' } Is there a memorandum that went to the Warren Commission? 3 - * A Mr. Goldsmith. I’m sorry, Mr. Rocca. ~ 2 4 ‘ . 4 ' S oy Mr. Rocca. -Is there a memorandum that actually went | SiS oti + ‘ . 1 : = ahs . : a i to the Warren Commission on the basis of this? This undoubtedly- x 4 i al 34 . . . a4 ! = m4 this reflects conversation with regard to the hancling of . 'S | material which had gotten into the hands of the Secret Service. a oF wa . A But the Secret Service is not -- But my impression certainly knew about | DE NTIAL 9 is that the Warren Commission | = i —_ 1 1 ie 13 i 5 4 . 1 2 4 , i = | Mr. Goldsmith. The second varacranhn refers to th “ i ~ ' | Oswald photographs... : i o 20 | ; , “| “ * ) Mr. Rocca. Jt refers to the photograrh. It savs, :; - ayroat : . . . . t ' Hae 1 “We-are going to pass the material in substance in response” a © rhe Za i " h L L : 3 71 ds " t ON | Sor the items refer to aborted leads. i Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. | Mr. Rocca. Now, for example, the famous six photographs + . z g¢ t which were 3 : DoclId: 322763409 Page 100 1 ' words, these were rot CONFIDENTIAL ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
CON td , not 3ust to these peovle, sr Q 0) < (0) Ky ct an and which .Wassa desire on the Warren Commission nat according to some specifically with regard to showing the Commission these , you're using exactly the lancuage Since 23rd of November” We'll get back to that point Gecide or rea om | Mr. Goidsmith. I | 2 | T Oe It is fair to sav, | of the languace in CIA number w 4 = § it nx aap. . - . A . . i" | part of Agency officials to wait out the wa ~ \ ~ i. & 74 ~ " photographs? x a Mr. Rocca. Well c | here that I usecé in this memo = ia} = | recollected, which is on the r 3 i = vid = v 3 i I can't see that these m i ~ iZ Fi e talking about un here. @ = i . = i “The levy of our m z # hands cf the Secret Service Eis! a yy , . ba | probabliv to the whole file = 1 | = i photogranhs. a 7 | = 4 “Hr. Goldsmith... Okay. a if “ ) Later on. ~ i , _ My. Rocca. I can't e 9 Ss 2 moment. Cae r i sensitive source of method , CON : if At mma Docld:32263409 Page 101 ARE ERSS to the Secret Service and cet it, is cencernec about revealing to t u {a a oO “a lily ascertain at the I think the point behind it was that they should do ask them for it. 1G9 not material which had gotten into the | referred these Mr. Goldsmith. It aopears that the Agency there acain: he. Warren Commission a
ie 4 w” = q a ~ “ . ' wo: wa fo) ~ ~ ' c ~ ~ / i Ne co 3 ce ™ a 7 nc. WASUTHOTON , 1 il ba og = 79 @ a 13 a = og 2 a ts a td S ios iA 4 tw _ if '3 i JOH 7TH STREET, ~ 2 < ay A eee . . LN yas ay) aA a7 sw A 24 =e = DoclId: 322763409 Pade 102 rs 101 NF co IDENTIAL ‘Mr. Rocca. I can't see that in the second naracrach, | where it says these are all thincs that have been given to them or are redundant,.as far as the investigation is concerned. At least at the time it seemed that war. Mr. Goldsmith. The fact that material may have been . | given to the Warren Commission in substance is something | yor iL 4 _ a . . 9 | (a) first of all that was cetermined by the CIA, not by the | Warren Commission: and secondly, if it was given in substance | and not verbatim, that reflects a cesire, does it not, on the part cf the Agency to withheld sensitive seurce or method of operation from the Warren Commission? ; Is that a fair statement? Mr. Rocca. Well, I think this was the general reoccuration that orevailed. Mr. Goldsmith. So then, if there was information that , i toucheaé upon sensitive sources and methods, the Agency, in. fact, Was very concerned about it. Mr. Rocca. + was concernec acout it, but certainly | . not se concerned that it woulc not either at that time cive , , od the substance of the information or eventually cive the entire; technicgue. Mr. Goldsmith. ‘We will return te this question in a little while, after we obtain Mr. Rankin's letter which, after you've seen it, I think you will realize that he was concernes about the photographs in particular. Perhans IAL (Nc. CON FPITIODEN ?T SON REPORTING COMPANY, ALOENS
bo | 102 : | we can clarify that issue at that time. yo Excuse me for a moment. 21 | 7 t @ | - (Pause) jy Roe R yo Uda rasract + do Mx. Rocca. With respect to the svhotecranhs, I , ; recall the Commission coming over; Slawson coming over and eo 8 L147 sie 3 4 ~ i actually looking at them. ™ : ~ | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall when he did that? a eS Mr. Rocca. I don't remember the cate of it. But he |} a > | i = { mace a trip over and he broucht somebody with him. There was |! = Wy i S } certainly more than one of them. They actually looked = i : cate, of the iron gate, ané so forth. So there was, at BUTELDING, a | i | i | 1 These were the ones that showec the backorour ne of the | | { { | | ; . . . . : ! i stage anyway, certainly no question of not showing him ts ii | 3 # actual chotcgraphic evidence so that he coulé examine for = shi bd | himself whether or not this man was Oswalc and determine = is | > " whetner cr net it was relevant to the case. a iT | | : ~ . : nd 3 s toe a | ; ’ Mr. Goldsmith. I think the recore is clear that, in tn fact, the Warren Commission was aliowecd to view the photograph, = 15 i i FT | - i Ox photogra achs. S 20 | . | However, ‘the question that I am focusing on right now | -the Commission staff was given access to this material, fact, if that material was made vromotiv availabie. 1 Mr. Recca.. Is there any record as to when they er?.-I mean, that.would sive at least a. time, a point ference. These small memoranda really reflect the kind Docla: 32263409 Page 103 ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC.
of day 4 to “i record. NPIDENTIAL to Gay ephemeral flow. Mr. Goldsmith. We'll have to check into any recorded of their visits Acency with me now. Mr. wo : = 3 it - . 4 2 ~ | Mr. Rocca. A large Cetermination has to be based on wi é | the wnole rather than a reading of a small nart. «= = | x a Mr. Goldsmith. ‘“oule you olease reac now CIA number & gf - € | 2933. = i o aan (Pause) S z ao ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Before we discuss 2933, I would like = 7 = i! 3 ea te = ‘' | te go back for a moment to 2007 anc establish for the record = 12 | . oy that 2007 was a memorancum that you prepared on January 31, ‘es 4 = ‘ ® a ii yosa, = r = te ij - 4 Is that true? o a Ss 4 Mr. Rocca. Uh-huh. ; = i Ce TTT ~ = | na tle . Mr. Colcsmith. Fine. “ 7 ' An. > “ Let's get back now to 2033. - i = 18) nj = Mr. Rocca. Pardon me while I look this over. = 19 il age oa: ~ Mr. Golcsmitn. Certainly. ¢ : : e “9 5 - | (Pause) | Aro: . : - Se | Mr, Recca. This memorandum was prepared by Mr. NTE : ft as an: Ma-/ 22 | @ oN i Doclev. Ho i Mr, Goldsmith. What is the date of the memcrancum? i Mr. Rocca. 23rd of July. a 4 ih 3 t : : a Docld: 322763409 Page 104 CGoONPIDENT Al ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. f- @
CONFIDENTIAL 104 a Mr. Rocca. This was at the point where the Commission: it HI i i 2 | # WaS preparing for their r rt a it xf i | prep ng for their report, and it was a question cf | ) } what should be included and what snould not be. } . Mr. Goldsmith. Understood. : | = < i ; ~ | Now,. from the text of this memorandum, which, although = : q a 3 | 7 _ i it was. prepared by Mr. Dooley, I believe it is signed by Mr. = 7 i _ | ~ Helms, anc it's-a memo to Mr. Rankin -- from the text of this ; = : memorancum, is it fair te say that the Agencv- was extremely a “ < i concernec about the sensitive nature of the vhotosurveillance H c ~ : . : S i Operation? _ if . wrt ‘ , ‘ | = Mx. Rocca. Without @ cuestion. I mean, this was a. “x , i statuteryvy responsibility. 13 Mr. Goldsmith. No one is questioning the lecitimacy | n tn I want to be very clear about that. The fact that the. REPORTERS BUPLDEMG, | i | | of that concern. | | | point. ~ l Agency was concerned about sensitive sources and methods is _ # not something that I am questioninc the validity of. & 13 | | 5 | ‘You look puzzled. Are you? ~ | Mr. Rocca. I wiil reserve. I will reserve on this e . ; ! = 20 : j Mr. Goldsmith. I am just trying to establish for a ct i Mr. Rocca. Basically, I think Win ju - if we could go off for a minute -- | | : | the record that there was that concern. | . 4 | | Mr. Goldsmith. I prefer not to co off. ! ' CONPFPIODENTIAL } atc mismteasr os i! LDERSOM REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Docld: 32263409 Paye 105 ALDSERSON REPORTING COMPANY
i tO roi an | 2 | i | , 1.4 “i | = Ss 4 = $s f ' wa" | w fo} | ~ H ~ | = 7 | — 1 - | P= i ™ i . u = mi ~ i ACH TUG TGH , 4 \ Hi i Prog i | 1 “a on. = if - ta oH : ay te 4 = u = il at H = te = tw ot S iH = 3g 4 t = i “ua a ly z {8 || = i ” | = 19 | ad | e it ¢ xe] Te oO Docld:3272763409 Page q) Mr. Rocca. It was just a possibility. know, that indiv any nd. Mr. Goldsmith Do you visit to the Soviet Embassv? NM TIAL CCUPANY, INC. 106 know whether he made more Mr. Rocca. T cannot answer that. I con Myr. Goldsmith. Please review CIA number: 195 All right forget it, then. We can talk at lunch. Mr.. Goldsmith. Now, the second oaragrarh of this letter, or this memo, indicates that the Loency recommends that the photograph not be renroduced in the Commission's report because it would jeorarcize a most confidential and productive oneration. In addition, it coulé be embarrassing to the in¢iviéual involved, who, @s far as the Agecy is aware, had no connection with Lee Harvey Oswalc ox the assassination of Presicent Kennedy.” Does that languace suggest to you that in fact the Agency knew who the indivicual invoived was? Mr. Rocca. NO, no. Tt simply suggests the total hypothesis that has to be taken into account when vcu are dealing with anvbody's rights in a matter of this kind. I'm sure that he had no
i- Oo oN CONFIDENTIAL Myr. Rocca. -This is our friend Henry. (Pause) Mr... Rocca. Now, this is Mexico. This is Jack 1 oo) fF sn ae iw wo _ Thitten’s outcoindg -- w a 7 Mr, Goldsmith. Would vow identify what this sable ' | ~ ad a a “ | is? ~ | — é . a | Mr. Rocca. This is a response to Mexico's cable, < i which we hac already considered; inccrporatina the traces il “! 5 I. ; - - . . - : = : that had been developed on the basis of the availiable file —~ t . i. i = IW: . S i materials. = i Mr. Goldsmith. ‘nat is the date of this resmonse? > 4 4 an a oan Mr. Rocca. The eleventh -- or the tenth of Cctober. = i I'm sorry, I mis-svoke. It's the tenth. = i = id wt | Mr. Goldsmith. Before discussing this cable in S "8 further detail, at the time of Oswald's contact with the _ lh = tse . ~ | Seviet Embassy in October, 12623 -- in other worcs, prior ~~ " . 2 | to the assassination -- was any particul Significance = ' 4 attached to the fact of this cont act? = IF N N fot i = i Mr. Rocca. No. Not as far as I. know. S 20 | whe nies ae: | ; J The ultimate of the significance could only have REE | been that he + defector who was about Gefect, or Dow | been that he was a defector who was about to recefect, OS ty Xf &: ed we intended to,.or was somehow or other involved’in’ that. = ey I can't say that there was even. that conclusion drawn in the earlier material. Mys:-Goldsmith. When the Mexico City station first ALZERSOM REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Docld:32263409 Paye 107 LEersc RTINS COs
“= 4 4q ~. _ 4. - w > ¢ “a ~ ~ i ws : “i od ~ “ ‘ e - ~ f — Ss 3 ~ . «= 3 y a - we = iV cond - S = i] = wd band = IA ia : - ec = aed 12 fa ~ = = = Ta t Lh = — - ad = La Cc ie = , = 4 ~ as “ 7 . ad 5 = 7 = 1S = 17 ~ e¢ A S 720 24 3s - learned of I think you would £3 r -_ CON FID in particular? nd exameles = NTIAL that this 197 the Oswald contact, was any significance attached Mr. Rocca. I would say not. “Mr, Goldsmith. Even though a cable was used to communicate this information to headcuarters, rather than a ‘@ispatch, for example? Mr. Rocca. Of, I think you would fined many other -- WaS5 24 standard order of procedure in connection with Americans. Me sabe headcuarters of every American whom it identified been in contact with Mr. Rocca. answer on th to Americans other words, what prompted Win Scott in this instance. it would be a part o Mr. Goldsmit with a foreicn embas MY.« Bocca. by cable. Mr. Goldsmit xr h. Did Mexico City a Soviet or Cuban Well, you used the wo act. It did notify he , ag ail stations Go. £ the function of the nh. To resort the cen Sv? . Yes, to report that. h. Now, I note in th outineliv notif we te as having Embassy? ra "routinelyv.* adcuarters with I don't know, in But station. tact by. an American And, it would be first paragraon of CIA number 179, wnaich you have correctly icentifiedc as the headcuarters res that there.is a correct descrintion of Oswald, or fa ponse to the Mexico wT. I TAPS COMPANY. 2 ity station cable, DENTIAL ING.
CON PFPIODENTIAL 108 accurate description of Oswald contained in that paracravh. 4 “I Mr. Recca. . That is the correct description of Oswald, @ “| as I know it. “4 Mr..Goldsmith. Where would that information have uw i , “2: “1 been obtained?» i | wo } : * ei Mr. Rocca. I have no knowledge of that. ~ . dl 2 | Does that strike you as being difficult? if . : ‘ = | Mr. Goldsmith. No. It does not necessarily strike * me as being difficult just because I asked. the cuestion. = i Mr. Rocca. You see, the file nad been opened on him |: ~- Iz oH ta : : i 2 i Mr. Goldsmith. So, you would have obtained the = | information from the 201 file? = it - . rt = 4 ft } = +s 1 3 i Mr. Rocca. She had the original State Department = 2 , = ~ % list which named the defectors, and this kind of thine is _ = 1s | ; . . - | really information that you could probably Rave gotten over OW | ae ay m 4 ait4 ie a teleshone -- I Gon’t know. They would-be in a position to | = say exactly where they cot it. = 3 ii = Mr. Goldsmith. In fact, the first paragraph refers a 20 i = 4 an : . : a thaat + . : | to Oswald's Z01 file and it.is likely that she received | ge ; Stes Als AS id ba tha ct descrivtion from this file or from information contained \ / in. this file. Mr. Rocca. Well, the file would have been fairly slim at that stage, though. You know, it would have been ” really the. opening action. Indeec, it contained |: . ' i ‘ CON PIDENTIALZ ‘i ALEERSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC Docld: 32263409 Page 109 ALDERSON REPORTING BONY, |
‘ CONFIDENTIAL 0 : 108 3 1 if i - # this increcicle error. ' i 2 > ns 7 2 ; ir. Golcsmith. Which incredible error are you . ~ CONFIDENTIAL ( { | fr. Recca. Henry. uw | ~ 7 i Mr. Goldsmith. Why would the file have been onened ! i oe . “ “ S| unger the name “Lee Henry Oswald?” s 5] | S My, Rocca. This ~f nave never heen able satisfactorily, = “+ to explain. Betty had retired well before I got into this | ra | . a ~ . 5 - una . . , thing, When I noted it myself -- T hacn't at the time -- in | ce a H t = 10 : . . : ~ ‘ S | dealing with Belin. But tuere was some cause for this, that |} g 1 1 = | had to do with the orening action. | w) Ik i - Mr. Goldsmith. I‘m not sure that I understand that. | g i . | = Hi You say that there was some cause. What do you mean?: Soi | . . L Pe t Mr, Rocca. There was some analytical error that caused = 1s4 ; tas : : L ; 2 s this, either on her cart or on the part of the cooyist who - i actually onened the file. | coat 4 -Mr. Golcsmith. Miss Reéecerter actually openec the file. $ ier ! eB 8) : ‘ | - Mr. Rocca. You mean; her action? i] i - ; ; i = o's | = Mr. Goldsmith. Her sicnature appears on it. Mr. Recca. “ell, then, she made the error. But she | ISS 4 gould have gotten it from the original source of information i — ne ae ; an ; i @ ~ { which was the State Denartment list. a 23 | | u . . . i Mr, Goldsmith. Let's take a look at that list richt a2 4 1 now. as i ‘ as of : ‘i Mr. Rocca. Whatever it is, I mean, this, of course, I H SLOERSON BESCRTING COMPANY. INC. : Docld: 322763409 Page 110
| f4 © . Oo CONPIDENTIAL | | is one cf the warts that vou have to live with. ; { ' | i | | 2 ~ t,o . - wy iomean, 1¢ is (straight.) And then, the thine I 3 | . : ; : ' | : nreparesc for Belin, I wonder why you haven't seen that, because | it is the one that I argued fairly hotly about. Acain, wn i . = | quite personally, off the top of my head -- = | wi? “ $ | Mr. Goldsmith. Which list are.you referring to now, | ~ - ff | S - - S | that you prepared for Belin? = ~ Mr. Rocca. Tnais is a survey of all of the materials | a ol : i SS Yo3 Py = A . a . - | ‘ | that had come in since the case had, since the Warren = ~ || Commission had pronouncec, hac issued its report, that on the | = '' 7 file.seemecd to have possible interest to a continuing x i - oan investigation. [It’s broken. cown into large sections. It toi + : ee = ¢ ' has had a documentary appendix in which each telegram in créer, — y i pe! . ‘ . , f a # eacn intercept was listed. ; : Se - ° ‘ ~ 1s. _ * : 1 . . 3 i I pointec ovt a number of these errors at that time | Z > | and said these are the inevitable results of people working - ay | - : . - uncer large stress and snort time. I remember I used this -- | — t Bes ! : ' Prd .- 4 } 18 : . — . . . : Ps you have tc take them, with :warts and all, in discussing this. =~ tam} ; = if : = . | o } But I have no real explanation for this. In fact, I was not | ¢ 30 | bo Z \ ; . , . t ” 4 aware of it myself until fairly late. | ay Foret o! Mr. Goldsmith. I wanted to estabiish for the reccerd | tnat accordi ng to CIA number 824. which was a list of American’ 44 | oo — . 2 ! | defectors that was given to the Agency, Oswaid’s name appears | 26 | | ¥ with th ne correct middle name, so that the source of the information would not have been resvonsible for the incorrect CON PIODENTOIAT. ND REPCATING COMPANY. ING. Docld: 32263409 Page 111
CON FIPDPENTIAL . i ey Mr. Rocca. Yes. So, it is not my imoression that the actual cpvening, file opening was done by he could roy K ta oo (D (D- have. instructed it to hav been cone. wn i! = Fi Did she write Henry? i it - H = nh | vl 4 | at ees eet _. a: “ | Mr. Goldsmith. We'll look at that document leter. s bd . i x ‘Hl Mr. Rocca... Because that would then, then she would = * 4} be in a position te exnlain it. . os 6G . . Coa, +3 2 ; ‘ ~ | Mr. Golasmith. Actualiy, I have the document right = aan in front of me so we will look at it very briefly. ft is : = thy = ‘ CIA number 788. i: ~” 12] i - il (Pause) od ta 4 . . ; . , _ ‘ ' S 3 | Mr, Recca. This is mv comment here (indicatinc.) a Mr. Goldsmith. So, you wrote in a notation that 4 : = Is the middle name is “Harvey,” anc that was cone -- Z Myr, Pocca. 34-75. “17 oO “Mr. Rocca. So, she Gicd it. She is coing to have to-- oO ae x on ~ c ¢ - well, they have to live with it. | ‘Mr. Goldsmith. I should point out for your information f . . . 4 that Mrs. Edgerter has reviewed this document and she has testified -- at least that is mv recollection anyway -- that seems to me that in the process there is a gar between Mrs. 44 : 4 . oo . i i “Henry“ was not written in by her; but by someone else. i Mr. Rocca. That. to me, makes sense. That is, it 2 4 an 7 CONFIDENTIAL Docld: 32263409 Page 112 ALEERSOM REPORTING TOMPANY, ING. :
~ ke CONFIDENTIAL fs = | tH nN | it A Edgerter and the actual opening, which is down somewhere in “4 ' - . . > : * : + ! the RI section, and that this is an error at that level, which 21 : . 2 “i then was never picked up and corrected. It just cot done af . ° | that way. 2 i] Now I've talked at. length with Mr. Hartman about it, and = t ; wt ra t ” $ | his suggestion was that that's the way it hanmened, that it | sol a | x 7} was the opening, the actual formal ovening was not done by. | t Mrs. Edgerter, who was..anszextremely careful analyst. 2002h f 5, oO 4 o Mr. Goldsmith. Why wouldn't she have written in the = ' | middle name at the time that she onened the file? a ; re = | Mr. Rocca. Why? - 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. She had that information. _ ded st . . Saad q ht . S nan Mr. Rocca. It's rignt here on the form. " 8 Well, you showed it to me a little while aado. Sis | tas — . . - ; Ss 7 4 Mr. Goldsmith. Why wouldn't she have written it a i = oly. . i ain? . ; - Mr. Rocca. You're going to have to ask the reorle 5 Pa | in RI on this. There is an actual book that savs how these wt I on 7 _ things happen, and there could have been a slippage at that | c ; ; e i ° point in time. 4 Ee r > re) 6 oe oo handwriting, I would judce (indicating), is not this to Les) handwriting (indicating.) 2 mn This is printing, and it's not hers. Mr. Goldsmith. So,.you think that someone wrote CON PIDENTIAS Docld:32263409 Page 113 ALDe In any case, I think her handwriting, which is this
(202) SSW-2345 20024 Nic, TON, ~ é € GaACirint REPORTERS BUPEDENG, Ws s 300 ITH STREET, DoclId: 322763409 > to be in iw 9) i rm ho “oO oa ™! nd o im) - aa ey nw ag Page in the entire name ” CONFIDENTIAL Lee Henrv Oswald?" Mr. Rocca. That's right. a mistake Se, her testimony, in other words, is mrcha contains middle in anv way Mr. Goldsmith. Returning to CIA number 175 a correct description of Oswald and the inco Me uy py) < 1) @ 0) Q fy) {-4 ny) ct with the Soviet Embassy? Mr. Pocca. Only in the sense that it wouid was consi ng redefection, which we later Mr. Goldsmith. And woulad that nave made the contact @ significant one? “24 would ef th 1is if such 114 information Mr. Bocca. I think so. I think so. For Me have. It-would have given it meaning. Mr. Goldsmith: “ould you refer to the last Mr. Rocca. Yes. fonal on Qu fo: cr tate Mr. Goldsmith. Does that request add 4, becomes available? f Mr. Rocca. It does. Mr. Goldsmith. Had the Mexico City station CONFIDENTIAL ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. ed the imnortance of Osw name, this-cable also gives background information on Oswald Ravine been a defectear to the Soviet Union. aic's Ss a » rrect a awed 4 Woulc uccest a etermined ar agranh information
jo fo & 4 CONFIDENTIAL | Cuban Embassy, should the Mexico City station have communicated < i 2. to the assassination known of Oswa idis contacts with the | | H i ‘tnat information to heaccuarters? 4. Mr. Rocca. It may not have mrecessed it by that time . tn a ~ | It was'a different set of materials. as | a) . + = 3 . ' _ Mr. Goldsmith. I understand that. ~ H c 7 “~ fe} - - - . - . L | Mr. Rocca. I understanca the thrust of what vou are | - 4 \ & 3] ¢ | Getting at. a Wo 2 5 i < i Mr. Goldsmitn. I uncerstand that you wouldn't have the - ag | | 7 | information as to whether they, in fact, knew. But I'm saying, = i that if, in fact, they knew and had processed that information, ee i Should it have been sent to headquarters? = i Mr. Rocca. Indeec -- if it had beer vrocessed. = ! i & i 4 i Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. I understand. Bis: ¢ i Mr. Rocca. My impression is that they simely went back is 4 ; = i over a lot of tapes and gathered that information then. [In aa | other words, there was so much of it that it Gidn't just sort ‘18 | - ; 5 cf come up automatically, and therefore that they sent what ~ } they hac or what they recocnized. But they were certainly S20 | a | | in ne position to immeciately correlate inasmuch. as evervthing! “= . i oo - i : “ . ‘ . j ocSte | had to be based on manual observation and translation and ae a 4 N “SS > re) selection at that time. So, I would not hold them at fault in this at ali. 24 i In other words, you cannot credit them with handling more Yl than -- 4 CON PIODENTIA SERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC. i Docld:32263409 Paye 115 at
7 CONFIDENTIAL © 115 t | i | | : . Mr. Goldsmith. Well, my questiconvws nhrased very | i narrowly. | i | 2} _ . | @ a | fam saying assuming that the Mexico City station had,i 7 | : in fact, known of Oswald's contact with the Cuban Embassv and ; 2 - ~ i prior to the assassination this information had been SB , | | wt fo) . ~ processed, should that information have been sent to headquarters’ a c } a 7 Me oD 2 3 ot oe : m: ! H Me. Rocca. And it would have been. Yes. vne answer | = 2 || = an ; ; = ul ~~ a . 2 + in tl : 3 H i to your question is yes, and i think it would have been. yo aos | < i My personal impression is that they orocessec it later, = 4 anc therefore. the flow of information was not as direct. - fli 3 ‘ Mr. Goldsmitn. Did you ever ask anyone in the Mexico ~ i2 | | ee H City station whether they-had that information prior to the = i assassination? x= H : it : z i Mx. Rocca. Prior to the assassination? fe ts i tae g i Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. = it I am asking you wnether -- o 1 "Mr. Rocca. I had no knowledge of any of this prior | & i to the assassination. | = 13 | ~ 7 i ; _ | ~ i Mr. Goldsmith. I am not asking you whether vou asked | . Cc ' : H = 20; oo | | the question prior to the assassination. I'm asking you whethier om 7 alt air ; . ; - . nik Le i OS = at some time you asked anvone at the Mexico City station oe an || - ' ~~} at A whether the Mexice City. station orior to the assassination 73} A : ! knew that Oswalé had been in contact with the Cuban Emoassy * and Consulate. 350: Mri Rocca. No, I had not. If would assume that that CONFIDENTIAL SM RESCATING COMPANY, INC. Docld:32263409 Paye 116 ALDERSS
| CCoON FIDENTIAL 1165 whose sicnature would have been there as releasing officer | hac. been renorted. 25 “Mr. Goldsmith. But vou never asked anyone? a Mr, Rocca.. No. + Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. 5 2 i Now turning to CIA number 181, which is the last page | 5 * . H we + : e. . . | aS i of this cable, I note that Thomas Karamissines is the | 5 7} releasing officer. = | 2 24 What does the. releasing officer tc a cable do? x i 2 _ | us 3 | Wnat is the function of the releasine officer? ; ist .Mr. Rocca. He was simply substituting for Mr. Helms, tt ° { VASOTHGOTON , en this matter, as it has been on others. “Mr. Goldsmith. Why would someone as high ue in the e organization as Mr. Karamissines or Mr. Helms be a releasing BUELD TUG , eG Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. f il i = 4 . . ~ ‘3 5 officer to a cable? a | * S| Mr. Rocca. I.think that vou are coming now to the “ 7 | whole matter of defection anc recefection. You are beqinning i JS | | 2 tg tl oy ; y . ene ae = si to get. people ~~ (not). J°C. Kane actually, but a’ division 5 i = i¢} ee men: aa = 3 | chief here: now ~~ this is no longer a Whitten -- the whole ; i e t . : a . matter of the American anc what his former relationshins to “ayo: . . . . : “SE the armed forces were are coming through. This makes it a Se " . . . : re i fw S27 i203 3 6 a a rr i matter of considerable concern. You have also peonle in ““ 4 CI concerned. The matter has become a little bit more re re important. ae bo . | GERSON REPORTING COMVEANY, INC. Docld: 32263409 Paye 117 Mone
CONFIDENTIAL 117 ij . ‘don think you answerec the question I nosed just | 2! ; “i abit earlier. 31 °°. oF What is the function of a releasing officer, for ° | the recoré. ~ ~ 4 Mr, Rocca. ‘ell, you know, vou have to have a releasilncg ‘ { t “ 7 officer on cabie... Presumably they represent the final review | = | authority with respect to what is beinc said in the cable. | = ~« He is the ultimate bureaucratic enc of the line on a cable, | “ : ~ -} accerding to the procedure which*is established in the manual. S : He doesn't have to be the DDP. = plo: : = od Mr. Goldsmith. Excuse me a minute. | & 4 ‘ = :: | - * | (Pause) | tS ; ; = + | @ = 4 Mx. Rocca. The releasing officer doesn’t have = 1 = te | ae ; ; a i to be the DDP or the ADDP.:. That's all I'm gettince at. = i ‘ S & Mr. Goldsmi ‘Would vou now refer to CIA number = 16 4 i ~ f 2140. | ‘na iv i ; | - 1 Mr. Rocca. You see, it's quite clear. You have ae i = vt te other authcrities involved. “0 i . | = 15 i = /Mr. Goldsmith. I'm sorry, you were just making a i < S20 | | | point? cee! Mr. Pocca. I mean, the content. I. think the answer | “ Ne a ! grF an i SR of . . ! ®@ aN } to your question is implicit in ‘the content. { You have four other authorities involved that are 24 : outside of the Agency. These are all other agencies (indicating) i DNB was the FBI. , cCcoNFIDENTIAL i : ALDERSON REPORTING COMBANY, ING. DoclId: 322763409 Page 116
Mr. Goldsmith. Are you saying that because this aac has ‘hs 1 n> my information -- | Mr. Goldsmith. One was the State Devartment. 2 | ae . : - | Mr. Rocce. One was probarliv Sacret Service anc the 2 I , a a) rr? : : 7 { .Other wouleG be somethingo. Uncer those circumstances vou would} ~ i want to go te the boss. wo | | Mr. Goldsmith. Why would Secret Service have been i 4 i » 4 | | “ | contacted? ~~ ot : i c 7 ‘ . . — . i = | Mr. Rocca. As a defector -- I don't know whether ' eo . ~* gti. , , - a , . | = “a ne is or not. This is -- mv Goc, why aia I say this. If don't; ~ knew. : cig . S oan Mr. Goldsmith. Let's slow cown and just move back for S ; = oii , | | = } @ moment, oe > 4 ! ~ te ft . 4 ls - You are referring now to CIA number 181, fifth paragrapn. © 5 12 | ; ee a ; ete so! » which indicates tha this information was Cisseminatedc to other = i if . . “ . . . : ~ i n ; agencies. My recoilection is that they were State, FBI, s : Immicration, and I Gon't knew wnat tne other crvrt.stands for. . | ZI don't think it’s Secret Service. Boe ll 4 i/o} - ous * 1 rn - | _Mr. Rocca. That! s where I bow out. . a i za HI = br. Goldsmith. That's why I wanted to clarify that oo j ~ f My. Rocca. I will bow out of that. 7 ° t I don't recoonize it. i ait = : : a i Mr. Rocca. Yes. Looking it over i can see verv efinitely why Mr. Kane would want his superior to know. Qu iP fter all, he is the Givision chief and normally he would ‘ oo cCONPIODENTIAL RSOM REPORTING COMPANY, INC. DoclId:32263409 Page 119 ALSE
ba - j 1 | 2 | s 4 @ | i aff +4 it d wn i = cs: ree] ~ i ~ i | ij a i re) S | i a : ~ . it < 7 ~ / i ~ { iH = al SS ad fod 7 i Sc H . oo3f tS ° | : { elfen 4 zOyIy yf 2 1 = : ‘3 Hi = ry = iH = .. | te = i — os. 2 = ' - 1 = ' a 43 a i x ii we i = 34 S 4 = 48 | . i ~ { | . i i ~ i ta vat Lao t 1 = oo lot ~ smi — \ 1 = boa i ~ i" < ce * } “ - i. i i : ato: t yf aes an || ad tet ae mY “- . i an i i y “ : Zo 4 i ae ao Ai G Docld: 322763409 Page -and what are his functions. up the channel. of command to CON FIDE be the releasing officer for anything. But if vou have this kinc of interderartmental concern, very definitely you want ‘the DDP or his assistant to know. It seems to me that this S$ -- new the answer is still to why the releasing officer a He has to be sufficiently hich 4 be able to take care cf whatever emercoes now as a consequence and pe informed of it so that if something haprens, one of these could cail him up and ask. nm al 7 3 i rang n 4 & 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Would the fact that Karamissines Signed cff on this as releasing officer indicate that the contact of Oswald with the to be significant? ta L it has a margin note which I don understanc. Mr. Goldsmith. Can you identify this. document? CONPFTIODENTIATR ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 120 embassy at this time was considere Myr. Rocca. Ncadver se, but in an interdepartmental sense it woulé be, anc he would have to know. Mr. Goldsmith. Please refer to CIA number 2140. Mr. Rocca. By george, you cuvs are beautifully ' thorough. 2121. Mr. Goldsmith. It's 2140. Mr. Rocca. That was the one f already had. Mr. Goldsmith. Oh, okay. (Pause) Mr. Rocca. It is a different copy of it, though, and |
A ? < “ r ~ - ‘ wa = 3 po - ™“ HT wt z 2 a?) -_ N S 7 ™ ~~. ae - = s ™~ “ - t. = iW S c = +4 - it od x = .4 Vw - te = ~_ _ tA @ c } —_ ene = = = ‘ i on aw - ot Vs = tC - = ra ™ = ~ : = 44 ~ = : ~ a“ 7 3 ro} tA oS is 300 7TH STREET, 20 ve fs See {x ad ms nod a bre sd ta Docld:32263409 Page 121 CON FIDENTIALS 129 (Pause) My. Recca. This Gocument goes to the community. Io would have to look at the earlier documents, the earlier Gissemination to the community to cistincuish what this does a) that the other cicn't. It seems to’aqo over the same ground. Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, you think that there was another dissemination cable to the community? Mr. Rocca. “fell, mavbe I'm just mixing that up with Mr. Goldsmith. There was a dissemination cable that was sent by -- Mr. Rocca. Mexico. Mr. Goldsmith -- Mexico City station locally. That could be what you are confusing it with. Mr. Rocca. That's what I'm probably remembering. Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of this cable? ..Mr. Rocca. This is the tenth. Mr. Goldsmith. This is the cable that was sent, I believe, to the rest of the intelligence community. Mr. Rocca. This was the first one, yes. It must be the first one. Mr. Goldsmith. Now, this cable reports the contact on 1 October by Lee Oswaid. Do you know why this cable contained an incorrect description cf Oswald? Mr, Rocca. Because it reproduced the incorrect CONFIDENTIAL: ALQERSON REPORTING COMEANY, INC.
4 - @ 4 . ead re) —_ rg = S > -. ™N t wm wa fe} ~~ ~ : c > mw OU —_ + ied 2 a = ce ™ . ~ 45 Pa - fant - = 10. = = oe i tA 4 be 29 i 300 7TH STREET, SU. REPORTERS BUTEDING, (ASHI 4 rm Poa art OSS Le Pes 722 ; oN ; aa ya) 24 2 as Docld: 32263409 Page 122 i ; i | | | | | | i | ‘ j i { : 1 { t i i! | | HI i i i i | t CONFIDENTIAL “been previously sent. Mr. Goldsmith. However, the same cerson who sent pre -to Mexico cme correct cescrintion City that cave ef Oswalc sent this went cut at Gifferent time, did it not? Mr. Goldsmith. They went out effectively simultaneous Mr. Rocca. ly impression is that there is a time Gifference which showed some cegree of avvreciaticn. (Pause) Mr. Rocca. Yes, this incorporates that incorrect information. Mr. Golésmith. This time is given in “zed” on CIA number 179. I'm not sure that you'li be able to correlate a. | ! | i t ! \ | { | che time. ! (Pause) Mr..Foececa. Well, we will have to find ovt what the : i times are. ! This is 12 "zed" (indicating) and what is this? I (Pause) | i Mr, Rocca. I associate this with being a later ; H Gissemination than this. It is very important. It is important I woule say in looking back at it to know who dic the actual drafting. These were among the errors mace. As I say, they lv)
bh) | | have to be markecé. as such and I think they were. © ‘ bese My. Goldsmith. In this case the Grafts were prenared i by Eacerter and Charlotte Bustos. I e — =H Mr. Rocca. Yes. My imrression is that it was Miss s ~ 1 Bustos:-- whom I.donit know, but the name I remember now that i ; : = f . “ ° y you menticn it -- but they were obviously not tracking. = i Foor} ~~ : 5 . - 4 : | gs an Mr. Goldsmith. In any event, do-you have an explanation. ~ 3 | 1 = “4 for why the -- ™ it } tt i = ‘| Mr, Rocca. I think that they wrote these in tctal - wa i = io | good faith on the basis of wnat they had before them. ao Mr. Goldsmith. Even thouch one cahie went hack ic i: 3 1 . i x i i - the Méxice City station that gave a.correct Gescription? Z i & 4 Mr..Rocca. Not if that went later. th aan Mr, Goldsmith. Not if that, referring to CIA number | = ‘~ 4 179? \ a ij . 's ( Mr. Rocca. Yes. If that went later, then it mean = i} - i that samewhere in between the two perception, true perception | Sd We . : Gog | = i developed, anc that is my assumption. = ts | = | Mr. Goldsmith. We can easily check the record to Ss 20 see the time. tH Mr. Rocca. I have never really peursuec it, but recall that this came un when I went through this exercise for Belin, and it was as clear as -- vou now -- there were i a* : : : . : . . errors made in the way these. things were sent. But they are . minor. They are minor things, though. a ro) by Hi oO td Zz | H we! ti ALZERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. : DoclId: 322763409 Page 123
qa ~m iH wn | a 7 i N . i t yO = if a] ra w & | ~ i zi a Fi ~ | a 2 i e 3 4 fog i 1 Fao} i = ry i ee “ if = tof = ne ne = i 3 il = 34 4 wt x = iu oa a = | Pa two Ic 4 . = i on - 4 ao YF - oa ' no i = ig | = i c | c 1 t a1 pe ee ae i : FT -— aw 4} ' aN, i . is aa i ow : uw 1 24 u ‘ if DoclId: 322763409 Paye 1234 ALDERSS! ti 5 G bY Qu fy fe x? i) ct O 1?) g het ch for the recoré that because of quality of the Xerox, which in general is cood, vou cannot make out che time with reliable accuracy. For that reason, we will do is simply check the Agency's recorés to see the time sequence with which these cables were sent. Mr. Rocca. The "Z" time sequence can be compared Ina ice Q ase, the two ladies can be -- well, I'm not coinc to tell you how to co your work. Mr. Golcsmith. Why doen't we take a break for lunch now. (Whereupon, at 1:21 o’clock, pimi, the denosition recessed, to resume’.at 2:15 o'clock, p.m., the same day.)