AGENCY | RECORD NUMBER ' RECORD SERIES AGENCY FILE NUMBER ORIGINATOR. : ‘FROM TO TITLE DATE PAGES SUBJECTS DOCUMENT TYPE CLASSIFICATION RESTRICTIONS CURRENT STATUS DATE OF LAST REVIEW OPENING CRITERIA COMMENTS HW 532716 DBocld: 32404699 Date: 01/31/01 Page: 1 JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM Released under the John . Eennedy CIA Assassination Records 104-10534-10033 ollection dct of 1992 JFK (44 USc 2107 Note). NOSENKO RECORDS asex#:NW 53216 Date: AGENCY INFORMATION -------- -- e ee  e eLLLLLLL ne—-14-2017 DOCUMENT INFORMATION TRANSCRIPT:REEL #1. 26 JULY 1965. 07/26/65 95 NOSENKO DERYABIN NBR NOSENKO INTERROGATION BY DERYABIN, PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT SECRET POSTPONED IN FULL 01/31/01 JFK-M-24:F34 2001.01.31.10:36:40:913084: NOSENKO NOT: BELIEVED RELEVANT (NBR). ATTACHED ARE 2-PAGE UNSIGNED MEMORANDUM WITH A KEY TO THE TRANSCRIPTS AND HSCA STAFF REVIEW FORM DATED 3 MAY 1978. Page 1
‘dl. Attached are 15 folders containing English-language translations of the 15 transcripts of the interrogations of NOSENKO by DERYABIN during the period 26 July 1965 - 13 August 1965. 2. The following is a key to the transcripts: DERYABIN. a. A= b. B = NOSENKO. c. ( ) = Single sets of parentheses enclose transliterations. | d. (1G), (26), (XG), (XM) = Indicate a number of missing or garbled or otherwise unreadable words. e. (¢ )) = Double sets of parentheses. enclose transcriber/translator remarks, explanations, etc., and additional information supplied by interrogator, but not included in the interrogation. .f. (? +?) = Queried transcriptions are thus indicated. g. .... = Ellipses indicated either a brief pause in speech or an unfinished sentence. h. = Underlining, except in cases of book and periodical titles, indicate emphasis in speech. “WARNING NOTICE - SENSITIVE INTELLIGENCE SOURCES AND METHODS INVOLVED E2 IMPDET CL BY 011340 HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 2?
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HW 53716 Reel # 1 26 July 1965 Following is the: complete translation of the verbatim transcript. TRANSLATION A. I think we will speak in Russian. You do not object? B. No. On the contrary, better in. Russian, because in English I ((am)) no 'so ((sure of)) myself... A, Over the last three years, together with my colleagues whom you already Know ‘and who ‘have: worked with you here -- ((those. who)) questioned (doprashivali) ((you)), ((and those with whom)) you met and became friendly, I also have taken an active part in your case, B. Yes. A. From the very beginning, aS soon as your case had begun. B. Unhunh ((affirmation of. understanding)). A. And, as you already have been told during the discussions and the investigation, a large part of what you have said cannot be accepted as true (za chistuyu monetu). And one cannot accept that which you said in your statements (pokazaniya), ete ,:in just the way that (tak kak) you said or testified (rasskazyvali ili pokazyvali). I think, therefore, that you understand this perfectly . But, as far as the.people who worked with you, questioned you, and met with you ((are concerned)), all of them to some degree speak Russian -= some well, some not so well -- ((but)) some do not know a the Russian language at all; it is the same ‘in your case (tozhe although your English language is good, SECRET samoye s Vashey storony): DoclId: 327404699 Page 5
HW 53716 ——SEeREE— re - 3 os lan > still -- quite understandably =~ there are some expressions and words which are difficult to understand. And, as for as all of the persons who worked with you before this ((are concerned)), perhaps they do not know or understand Soviet reality very well.... That is correct. . And therefore, perhaps, for them in some ((cases it was)).... ((Interrupts)) Not understood what Tam explaining. Not wholly understood; perhaps it was understandable to them, but... ((interrupts)) But not in detail. Not in detail. I am here only for that reason - in order to clear up all of these misunderstandings which have arisen and existed. I can tell you beforehand that at one time I worked in. the KGB, in Moscow, and lived there. And I think that we, as former colleagues and former Soviets, will try to find a common language in our discussion and to clear up everything that was not understandable to us and everything that was not understandable to you. - If you have sufficient courage and understanding of what I will say, I think that we will find a common language and finally we will arrive at some common denominator; we will not leave a single puzzling question which would not have been answered or incorrectly interpreted. I agree with you absolutely. I am wholly at your disposal. Could you be precise? DoclId: 37404699 Page 6
HW 53716 B. L~ -~3- I am ready to answer all questions. It is another affair that everything I say, everything, is understood ((is viewed or treated) ) from the position that it is incorrect and that I... so to speak, ((am)) false (fal'shiv) and came with a definite assignment (opredelennoye zadaniye). But how do you think == since, so to speak, you yourself have already raised this question: "They think that ((I am)) false, that ‘((I was)) sent with a definite assignment", etc. -= how can you yourself answer: Why are you in such a position? How can you explain this yourself? Absolute distrust... absolute distrust, and then I already have been thinking to myself very much ; it already ( (has been)) a long time (bol' ' shoy ‘srok): 4793 days today . 479 days -= this is neither ((479)) hours nor minutes. Here ((there is)) quite simply the deliberate == so, perhaps, to speak ~~ desire... the deliberate desire of the people (u lyudey): to make a case that... "Well, here a double agent (dvoynik) sits - before us". . As if this were ((their)) aim, ((their)) task. ((It is)) not ((their)) aim-task (tsel' -zadacha) actually to know the truth; but ((instead, it is)) their aim-task to make such a case. Well, speaking in a friendly way, how do you consider ((this)) as a counterintelligence (kontrrazvedka) officer? Do you think that all of the people who worked with you have mis= understood you, etc., so much that _- without reason and without any basis (osnovaniye) -- they have held (("are holding" -- derzhat)). you for more than 400 days’ | As a counterintelligence officer, tell ((me)). I can say only one thing: that I have said, I say, and I will say until the end that I have conferred with absolutely no one; I have not heard a single word from anyone regarding ((my)) travel (poyezdka) here, ((and)) I shared with no one ((the thought)) that I want to DoclId: 327404699 Page 7
stay abroad and not.return to the Soviet Union. No one knew about this. A, Well, anyway, I think you still have not completely understood what. I said.... B. ((CIinterrupts)) About what? A. ... About what I asked you. What ("how" = kak) do you think? There was and is some basis <= do you consider == for ((the fact)) that you were in such a position as you are now? B. ... As I understood = the confusion of my explanations and.... Here, these moments, perhaps.... | Then. I do not know, I do not know. I have, strictly speaking -~ I cannot say why, why, what is the reason (("main point" sut')). ‘I only know one thing -= that they do not believe me. A. You yourself mentioned the word: "confusion of explanations" (zaputannost' ob"yasneniy). | How do you explain this "confusion of explanations", if you see such a "confusion of explanations''? B. I do not see special.... ((you)) see -- when I... and your colleagues who preceded you (s predydyshchimi Vashimi kollegami) were talking together, even they said to me: "This here is a lie (vot zdes' nepravdu); this here is a lie”. But the point is not in how I said (Cit)) (A, ne v etom delo, kak ya skazal). I said that "I took part"... "I did not participate". The point is in that this fact took place or did not take place. | HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 6
HW 53716 In this, I absolutely nowhere, nowhere, made any mistake or lie. As accounterintelligence officer, I think, you understand perfectly that, having given (("said" - skazavshi)) one fact, a person must say whence he knows this ((fact)), how this occurred...., Correct, correct. Well, so you understand what (("thus, as" -- tak kak)) I say ((to you) but how does it turn out (a chto poluchayetsya)? . . For example, this Paris case; I tell them what (("as" - kak)) I know. "From where do I know ((this", they ask me))? "Nonsense, nonsense" ((they say)). ( (Laughs) ) How do I know? "But these fellows... from IONOV's section (otdeleniye) told me ((I say)). "No. Not so" ((they reply)). Well, I cannot say anything more. I heard ((about this case)) only from then. Or they supposed (predpolozhili) such a fact: From whom did I first find out about DE JEAN? | So, believe me, believe me; I do not remember who ((was)) first, from where ((I)) first ((found out about this)). First of all, working in the KGB _ here, if you please, is the problem: they do not believe me ((when I say)) that rumors, gossip, etc., pass (khodyat) among the workers there. it is: the First Department (otdel) has (('makes"' = delayet)) a case, but 10 departments (otdel) know that the First department is doing something, something, ((although) ) they do not know exactly ((what it is)). But friends, those who have friends in the First Department, .they know a little more: that, ahah! ((there is)) a case against an American, but they do not know the name ((of the American)). I think that in this respect they understood you perfectly, and I do not think.... DoclId: 37404699 Page 9
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 10 SECRE— (~ -6- ae om” ~ NU ((Interrupts)) "No," they tell me,"This cannot be. What you are telling us is nonsense." Not in all cases was ((this)) so stated == that.. ((Interrupts) ) And,.. believe me ~~ well, how? What kind of trust or distrust can ((there)) be, if they say to my face: "You did not work in the First Section (otdel) of the First Otdel ((during)) these years"? I cannot say any thing. True (pravil'no), in the ABIDIAN Case, I did not look very goog, but I said so ((myself)), that I did not work on it, did not conduct his development (razrabotka); the file was charged to ‘me (delo za : mnoy chislilos') .: | - But how was it run? So they surveilled ((him)), waited for ABIDIAN to show his tail (khvost). They do not believe me. Well, about this.... We still will return to the case of ABIDIAN. I know everything that you have said about ABIDIAN and so forth; and, of course, as a former employee of the KGB, I never in any way can believe that you were the case officer for ABIDIAN., I was not the case officer, I was deputy chief of the section.. The more so.. ((Interrupts)) And they thrust the case upon me, but this was a terrible mistake (("gross error" -- grubaya oshibka)), a terrible mistake of the department, because it ((is)) necessary to sit and work on ((a)) case. Well, if.... Earlier you said that ((yolare)) prepared to discuss
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page i1 ; ~ (razgovarivat') and,... Yes. And possibly to clear up everything that.... . Everything which has not been understood there.... Everything which has not been understood and so forth. Let us suppose ( (that there) ) were very many questions ((about)) how you began to work in the KGB, under what circumstances, etc. | I wish that we begin with ((''from" -= s etogo voprosa)) this question, starting -- for example --= from the end of 1952 or the beginning of 1953. Good. Thus we slowly will move further. I have only one thing to discuss here; I hope that you will tell . the truth: you will explain, corroborate everything that you say, and so forth. ((Interrupts)) I ask that you put the questions to me. I will try to answer for you everything that you will ask. Also, ((be)) sufficiently accurate in your questions, etc., so that there will be no misunderstandings of any kind.... ((Interrupts, repeating)) Misunderstandings. To me, for example, ((this is)) not wholly understandable -“— you yourself know that in the course of the long time you have been here you have said several times that you went to work in the KGB == or, as it was called then, the MGB; one time you said ((this took place)) in 1952, sometime in the autumn or winter; then you said ((this took place)) in the beginning of 1953; then you said ((it was) ) after the
HW 53716 Docld: 327404699 Page 12 death of STALIN; and so forth. (1G) Let us begin, even from the end of 1952; we will not go into details ((about)) what was before 1952. Let us begin from 1952. Whence and how did you show up (poyavilis') in the city of Moscow? At the end of 1952 I arrived in Moscow from the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; this ((city)) is 10-15 kilometers from the city of Baltiysk, formerly ((known as)) Pillau, ((a)) German ((city)) -= the base of the Fourth Naval Fleet on the Baltic. 10-15 kilometers from this Baltiysk ((is)) the city of Sovetsk, where my MRP «=— the Navy Intelligence Point (Morskoy Razvedyvatel 'nyy Punkt), at which I worked for several months in 1952 -- was located. Good. You arrived in Moscow from there. When was this, and under what circumstances? For what was it necessary for you to go to Moscow at this time? I had a purpose (tsel'). A purpose stood before me: having come to Moscow, having come to Moscow, to try -~ either through the Ministry of the Navy, because there still were twoministries at that time, ((the Ministry)) of the Navy and the Military ((Army = Voyennoye - Ministry)), separately , not together. So. To try to get out of (uvil'nut') the work at this MRP and to think of something new to transfer (pereyti) ((to)) from ((this)) work. Because this work absolutely did not suit me; I did not like it, I did not receive any moral or other kind of satisfaction from this work.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 13 {~~ a — SU Here, at this point, I worked only several months in all. So. I absolutely did not like this work. And I went to Moscow, went to Moscow; I took leave (("got leave" == dobilsya otpuska)) and went to Moscow. I just took leave, so: the MRP commander did not permit me ((leave)). Well, in what, when was this, in what month did you arrive ((in Moscow) )‘? In December, I arrived at the end of December 1952. At the end of December? Yes. At the end of December 1952 you came to Moscow from Sovetsk’ ((In a low voice, not confidently)) From Sovetsk, yes, In plain language (prostym yazykov), explain to me what you did (chem Vy zanimalis') ((during)) the first 3-4 days, when you had arrived. Well, I just cannot tell you this. I have forgotten now. I rested; I did not do anything. I have in mind ((what you did)) as any officer ((does)); you were an officer -- I made ((this)) conclusion on the basis of your statements (pokazaniya). You came to Moscow, and so forth; well, alright (nu khorosho) ~-«= you did not do anything, but the officer's duty demands ((that you)) come to someone and report that you have arrived in Moscow.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 14 e -~10- |. \ ) ((Interrupts)) Well, I did not come on ((an assigned)) business trip (komandirovka). Upon instruction of some (V ch'ye-to rasporyazheniye)...? ((Interrupts)) No. ...On some kind of problems, etc. You cannot just come, spit on everything and simply sit at home for several months. It is when you, ((when)) a person goes to Moscow on an ((assigned)) business trip (komandirovka), it is one case, but when a person goes on leave (s otpusknym svidetel'stvom), on leave I can -=- not having reported to anyone -- spend ((my)) leave, return on time and report to the unit (chast') commander, to whom I reported ((when)) leaving, report that I have arrived ((i.e., returned)). Let us assume you went to Moscow; how much time was given ((for)). your leave, a month or how much? A month. You went to Moscow; you do not report to anyone; you can live at home, ((or)) wherever you wish, and so forth. Good. After three days, they announced a universal mobilization; what must you do? I must. Here, in this case, I must quickly, quickly -- well, here, taking into account the work at the MRP, ((the fact)) that I am in Moscow and ((that)) the Ministry of the Navy is located in Moscow -~ I quickly must telephone and say that I am on leave: I am to go back to the unit or there will be some kind of instructions from you.
HW 53716 Docld:327404699 Page 15 ‘ -ll- | » — But, upon arrival in Moscow, do you not have to register someplace? And, if you wished to be a deserter and did not want -= there is a war, and you do not want to go to war, then how must they find you? Here is the most simple routine question. Well, in these events, you see, all military units immediately, you know very well, in the presence (v nalichii) (1G). Say (('Give" -- Davay)), he says, who of us is present, who-is not.... Such and such officers are not present. Where are they? ((B; i.e., Subject's family name)) is in Moscow. Please, we will not go into such details. You ((yourself)) asked for such details (("so" = tak)), I think the question was completely clear: you have come to Moscow on a month's leave; what must you do, who must know that you are on leave? | The affair is not set up so that you,yu understand, have come, and you hang around for a month, and if there had been war, ((you would have said)) I will go to report. | If it were so, there would have been a million deserters. Because people are on the register somewhere, and they know them and that he is here on leave, ((that)) this officer is here, and so forth, and if he is needed, one can call him. So, according to the regulations (po ustavu), any officer -~ in the event of a declaration of war, in the event of some kind of critical situation == quickly interrupts his leave and returns to ((his)) unit. According to the regulations, it is that which is said in the regulations which also will be written up in the plan for mobilizatior and so forth.... x ((Interrupts)) €XG.- ? He quickly interrupts his leave 7)
HW 53716 “SECRET Lo - 12 ( ...But apart from this, something else exists: some kind of rules, which require that an officer do something upon arrival on leave in any city of the Soviet Union, ((whether)) he goes home or he goes to the Caucasus. About this, where I will be on leave is known to the commander of the unit, the military unit from which I departed, and.... This is understood.... Leave (otpusk), leave, and one goes where? Such ((and such)) a city. The Travel documents (proyezdnyye dokumenty ) are written out in the railway ((travel)) order (trebovaniye na zheleznuyu dorogu), again to that city where you are going. Let us stop here on this, the most simple question. Even here, this little question: how did you go on leave (priyekhali v otpusk)? And what did you do ((during)) the first days? With your documents, etc., where did you gO, to whom did you report. .? ((Interrupts)) I did not report to anyone. You have not explained articulately even to me. I am explaining to you that I reported to no one. The very same ((thing)) happened with all of the officers with whom you have spoken previously (ran'she). Sometimes they did not stop you, they gave you an opportunity, you talked and talked and talked. | But, believe ((me)), no one can buy ((it)) the way you say, that now this is how it is. Soviet reality does not work that way, and the registration (uchet) is not carried on (ne vedetsya) in this way, and people do not travel DoclId: 327404699 Page 16
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page i7 C) - 13 - this way. ‘It is for this reason (Vot poetomu) that I am here.... ((Interrupts)) But I am from there. And I went. | I was there, then I came, and I was located there. You understand ne; you say that it is not this way (tak i ne byvayet), but I went through (perezhil) this, had ((this experience)). For me, what you are saying is only conversation. You can say as much as you wish.... I understand you, I understand. But for me it is important and wholly necessary that you tell me how this was. You went to Moscow, and you say that you lived at home a month and did not report anywhere to anyone.... ((With sarcasm)) You asked me what I did ((during)) the first days, the first days. You do not remember? I told you, well, where -= at home; I spent ((the time)) at home. Well, to whom ((did)) you -= as soon as you had arrived from Sovetsk, where did you go, to whom did you report? I absolutely did not report to anyone. We. will stop on this ((point)).... How much time did you spend on leave, if you arrived ((in Moscow)) at the end of December? 7 How much time were you on leave, approximately, until what time?
HW 53716 B. B. DoclId: 327404699 Page 138 “SECRET QL -~ 14 - I here... just.... it is hard to say. Whether my leave was finished, or maybe it was interrupted.... On leave in Moscow.... The business arose that I would be taken to work in the MGB. Through KOBULOV, Bogdan... Zakharovich, and I in turn announced in the Ministry of the Navy, in Personnel, to Colonel KALOSHIN, Chief of Personnel of Navy GRU, that I was processing (("am processing" - oformlyayus')) and I would be (("will be" = budu)) processed (XG) into the MGB: "I am announcing this to you." Alright (khorosho). Let us begin from here, since -- I make my Own conclusion == you were not of a mind (ne v sostoyanii) or did not wish or do not wish to explain truly and correctly xhow you came to Moscow, to whom you reported, etc. Because there is no way to worm out of this (ni kak eto ni v kKakiye vorota), there is no way to get around it ((same expression) );.do not think, you, that you are the only person who has come here. Many Soviet defectors come, many officers, and the rules which a . person _- a Soviet officer -- must observe on leave are written in his officer's identification (ofitserskaya knizhka). Rule (("point" - punkt)) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I even can imagine ((that it is)) not compulsory -~ and no one insists -- that one would come to Moscow and right away on the second day must run ((to report)). It happens (Byvayet) a person sits for three days, and.... Yes, But (XG) ((A and B talk at the same time)) Or the military commissariat (voyenkomat), or the military commissaria if this is a simple officer.... I do not want to put (postavit') "someone" ("kto-libo"), who did you put when.... I did not put anyone.
HW 53716 A. DoclId: 327404699 Page 19 a - ~ o - 15 - _ When I had arrived, just after New Year's, after several days, I went to (poyavilsya) the Ministry of the Navy. Maybe after about ten days, seven, eight, and announced that I was processing (("am processing" = oformlyayus')); the problem of my transfer from the system of the Navy to the system of the Ministry for State Security was resolved (("is resolved" = reshayetsya)). Good. . Let us leave this question. We still can return to this ((later)). As you wish (pozhaluysta). How, under what circumstances, and where did the conversation first come up that you expressed the desire -- or that someone proposed -- that you transfer to work in the organs... Of the MGB, Of the MGB. It was at KOBULOV's dacha ((country house)). Prior to this, father knew -- I had spoken with father previously -- that I did not like this work. More than that, when I left Baltiysk -=- I told you _- the unit commander, the commander of our Navy Point, he of course did not want to let me go on leave, and I turned (obratilsya) -- at a reception to Commander of the Fleet Arseniy Grigor'yevich GOLOVKO, father's pal (priyatel' ), and said..... We will return to this. And we will come back to GOLOVKO and to the Chief of your Intelligence Point, and so forth. No, as I. We have begun now to talk ((of)) how and under what circumstances -- Cc
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 270 f~ ~ — NL -~ 16. Ho so, not upset, calmly, simply -= they found you, you found a person with whom to talk of going to work in the MGB, While a guest, with my father and mother, at KOBULOV's == it was on the first or second of January at his dacha. The conversation was brought up: "And what are you doing?" I said what I was doing (("am doing" - delayu)), where I was working (C'am working" - rabotayu)). One minute. "The conversation was brought up: 'What are you doing? '" I have one question here. Why did you and your family happen to be at KOBULOV's dacha? ((Smiling)) There was a phone call. At this time, KOBULOV was working in the GUSIMZ, GUSIMZ system. But maybe it was as cover ((that)) he was registered with (chislilsya) GUSIMZ, as Deputy Chairman. GUSIMZ _- that is, the Chief Directorate of Soviet Property Abroad (Glavnoye Upravleniye Sovetskim Imushchestvom Zagranitsey). But he had been in Berlin, as chief of "BISMUTH" ((Soviet mining and development concession, "Wismut"; in Russian, Sovetskoye aktsionernoye obshchestvo 'Vismut' )) -- all uranium extraction (("development" - razrabotka; mining and processing)). And he was in Moscow. He knew father. Well, they, many knew. He rang up father; for what, why, I do not know; in any event, he. invited ((us)); or maybe father invited him to ((visit)), us at our dacha, but he ((KOBULOV)) said: "I cannot; no, better, perhaps, (Cif you come)) to me”. . Well, all in all, we went as guests, for a few hours (1G), to KOBULOV's dacha. ((In English)) Well. I think you must say a little more: what -= had ((your)) father
HW 53216 DBocld:32404699 Page ?1 and KOBULOV known each other long, or had you and KOBULOV known each other long’ | It does not happen so simply; if I, for example, do not know KOBULOV , I cannot ring him up: "Please come to ((visit)) me!" (?One minute; I will explain to you now?) Father had worked, so to say, in such posts since 1938. He knew the Minister or Deputy ((Minister)) from any Ministry. KOBULOV also had worked for many years as a Deputy Minister and also was among the "higher-ups" all the time. But they know each other ((2G -—- A and B speak at the same time.)) You understand that it is not important that your father had worked in the Ministry of Ship-building or some other Industry; specifically, this -- I would say == had no relation of any kind to the NKVD, where KOBULOV at one time was Deputy Minister. Here there must be something linking their friendship, something further on which it was built, either a simple acquaintance or as.... ((Interrupts)) I understand. It could not have heppemi just so, that he phoned and (i vot).... ((Iinterrupts)) They meet at receptions, they meet at conferences, they know each other, then perhaps they run into each other on problems; so to say; there were some kinds of common problems. Let us assume, for very many years the MVD carried on construction; the most secret::and most complex ((construction work)) they carried out with the MVD troops (silami voysk MVD): SPETSSTROY. Perhaps on this ground; I do not know on what ground they are acquainted, but they are acquainted, and they have known each other for a long time. And not only ((that)); father knew many, many, just as those who were working "at the top (naverkhu)" knew him. Let us begin from this.
HW 53716 DocId: 32404699 Page 22 “~ = fo -~ 18 = ‘ They knew many, etc. -= this is another question. I wish to establish here only what. mutual relations there were between your family and the KOBULOVs and why _it happened.... ((Interrupts) ) Before this.... we that you happened to be at KOBULOV's dacha, at a party and at dinner or who-knows-what. Before this ((period)), I do not remember that our families were associated, so to say. KOBULOV's family or our family -- I do not remember such a question. They knew each other: KOBULOV and father. | Well, they addressed each other by first name: ((father addressed KOBULOV as)) Bogdan, ((and)) he addressed father -- Ivan. | Such ((was their form of)) address. But by families I do not remember; there was no such event before this. Maybe, maybe, before New Year's they saw each other somewhere: in the Kremlin, at a meeting, somewhere ; and may be therefore Bogdan KOBULOV telephoned to congratulate ((father on New Year's)). It is customary, you see: ((for)) New Year's, some congratulate on the thirty-first, ((those who)) who are not visiting (kto ne v gostyakh), who are at home: some send telegrams, but this is to ((those in)) other cities; but some call even on the first, phone around to their acquaintances. Well (Vot), perhaps KOBULOV phoned, because I remember that there was a call, namely, from KOBULOV. | KOBULOV himself phoned and congratulated father: "((I congratulate) ) you on the New Year, Ivan; well, what are you doing?" "Nothing much; the family is ((just)) sitting here; maybe we can get together and have a drink." But are you saying exactly how it was, or are you imagining and presenting....
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 23 C) -~19 - No, ((it)) as it must have been (("must be" — dolzhno byt')). I was not a witness ((as to)) how father talked with him on the telephone; I am speaking ((of)) how it is in life, how it is and how it was, judging by that meeting which took place (proshla). In short, you were not present during this conversation.... ((Interrupts)) During father's telephone conversation, that (to chto). ((That which)) you are telling me about phone calls, etc. -= it. is only, so to speak, ((that which)) you offer or imagine.... ((Interrupts)) That Bogdan phoned.... (1G) That KOBULOV phoned —- exactly ((as it happened)). He spoke with father =. exactly. “But that he invited ((us)) -= exactly, since we went. How many times before this meeting, before this meeting, did your family and KOBULOV's family meet as families. I am telling you that I do not know of one instance (ni odnogo fakta) ((in which)) they met (vstrechat'sya) as families, visited (naveshchat'sya) each other at their apartments (po kvartire) or dachas. Despite the fact that mother also knew KOBULOV's wife, exchanged greetings with her ~=- "Good day (Zaravstvuyte)". She saw ((her)) at a parade or reception or in a shop of the Council of Ministers or another place. But did you yourself see personally that they exchanged greetings,
| HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 24 c~ a SECRET | So -~ 20 - or are you again imagining and offering ((that which you have imagined) )? I myself have exchanged greetings ((with her)), I know her -- KOBULOV ' wife _- by face. | Then, you see, the fact is that my acquaintance, VAKHRUSHEV, was married to KOBULOV's daughter, and ((Pauses)).... Today, I want only one thing =~ ((that it be made)) clear and understood what kind of mutual relations there were at that time ((between)) KOBULOV's family and your family and ((between)) you personally and Bogdan KOBULOV At that time I personally had none ((no mutual relationship)) with Bogdan. ((XG; A and B speak at the sane time) ) Personally met before this meeting? There was no one time, either at his apartment or at his dacha. I could have seen (("could see" — mog viden')) him at a parade, ((or)) somewhere else (1G). But you never talked ((with him) )? No, no, no. You did not talk ((with him))? No. Now let us go to the second stage of our talk. How did the conversation come about that -— there was a conversation about work in the MGB; ((was it)) at this party at Bogdan's?
C 21 - a B, Well, there was a real dinner (deystvitel'nyy obed). Who was present: KOBULOV himself, his wife, daughter, and the daughter's husbnad, Vasiliy VAKHRUSHEV. - Also there with them ~~ I have in mind Vasiliy and the daughter -- _((was)) a son, six or seven years old. And there was also.... A. Which VAKHRUSHEV, the elder or the younger (('the father or the son" - otets ili syn))? B. The younger (("the son" = syn)). VAKHRUSHEV elder died long ago. A. Unhunh ((affirmation of understanding)). B. And Bogdan KOBULOV's brother, Amayak KOBULOV, was there. Lieutenant General Amayak Zakharov ich KOBULOV . There was no one else. A. But, on your part? On your family's side? B. I, mother, father. A. The three ((of you))? B. Yes. A. Please continue. B. Well, how did the conversation come up? Well, it was after dinner. We were sitting, laughing, joking. Well, let us suppose then that mother was talking (("is talking" - razgovarivayet)) with the wife, I was talking with Vasiliy or with them. HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 25
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 276 SECRET Well, you do something. I was =~ I do not remember -- I had come in either civilian clothes or uniform; I do not even remember. ‘The conversation about me simply arose (zashel): What was I doing? Where was I working? Perhaps Vasiliy raised the question, because Vasiliy had studied at the same institute as I, only he -- VAKHRUSHEV _- had graduated two years earlier. | I said that I was working in the GRU system of the Ministry of the Navy. In the beginning, my work (pervonachal'naya moya rabota) -= work in the Far East -= Satisfied me. The work here -= several months on the Baltic _- absolutely did not satisfy (('does not satisfy")) me, and I have, I came here not so much for the sake of leave, but took leave in order to think of something, to find something, a place for work to which to go. Well, Bogdan Zakharovich was interested. There father and I were sitting (("‘sit")); there sat Vasiliy and Amayak; I do not remember whether or not mother was listening. I said this and that, this and that (to, to, to, to). "But what are you doing’ | I told what kind of work, the preparation of so-called ANPS == Agent-Surveillance Posts (Agenturno-Nablyudatel' nyye Posty) - against the event of war in the future. "Well, that's all. "My role, speaking generally, comes down to nothing, because I have absolutely no experience in this work, and, as a matter of fact, I am _ in crude language _- a second tail sewed on a mare ((unnecessary "This work absolutely does not satisfy: me, does not please me. "To where? ((Where to go?)) | | "I even do not know to where. "To the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to ((the Ministry of)) Foreign Trade, I absolutely do not know where ((to go)). "I absolutely do not know." ((Pauses)) Please (continue? )
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page ?7 Well, when Bogdan Zakharovich KOBULOV found out that I had had the same education (obrazovaniye) as Vasiliy VAKHRUSHEV, ((he said)) "Well, where do you wish? Do you wish?" Well, I even do not know exactly how he said ((it)). I cannot tell you word for word. I cannot tell you word for word. He suggested to me: “How do you view work in the organs ((with uncertainty)) of Security?" ((I replied,)) "Excuse me, I do not know this work, and ((Pauses)) I have not worked ((there))." Do you remember exactly how and what he said or not? No, I do not remember word for word; no, no, no. The conversation came up; fe said to me: "How do you view work here?" I said to him that "I do not know; if it is interesting work, then ((I will accept it)) with pleasure." He said the word, "here", or...., ((Interrupts)) Well, in the Ministry for State Security, in the Ministry for State Security. I do not wish to "hook" you (byt' zakoryuchkoy), but.... ((Interrupts)) The Ministry for State Security was what was meant (imelos' vvidu). How did he say it: In the organs of State Security, or how? This I, I absolutely do not ramember this. Whether he said in the Ministry for State Security (Gosbezopasnosti) or in the organs of State Security, or he simply said in State Security -- I do not remember this. Perhaps he said in Counterintelligence (Kontrrazvedka)?
| HW 53216 —_ SECRET ——S—S No, There was no talk of intelligence or cunterintelligence, absolutely none (absolyutno ne bylo), and I -- until the beginning, until I began work in March _- I did not even know where I would ((‘'will" budu)) work. I did not know. I, of course, would not have wanted to remind you that, for example, earlier you said, for example, that when they questioned you in 1964 you explained about KOBULOV a couple or three times before this, etc. at two points (("in two places" _- v dvukh mestakh)) you emphasized straight out that KOBULOV had said to you: "And how about work in counterintelligence, in the organs of counterintelligence?" I do not remember the word, "counterintelligence"; I do not remember the word, "counterintelligence", He could have said only one ((thing)): work on foreigners, or against foreigners, or on foreigners. He could have said that. But the word, "counterintelligence", I do not remember. But, you understand, working in counter intelligence, I of course could have said this. You must understand that this is a very important moment. I absolutely do not understand this. It means I am so stupid that I consider this absolutely not the important moment you say it to be (kak bylo skazano). It is absolutely not important ((whether)) it was said "in the Ministry of State Security (v Ministerstve Gosbezopasnosti)", because ((B's family name)) wished to work, or “you will work in the organs of State Security (v organakh gosbezopasnosti)," or "you will work in State Security (v gosbezopasnosti)". . It is, you know, one ((and the same)) Ministry. The point is not in how it was said ((to you)), but in how you have DoclId: 327404699 Page 275
HW 53716 .. Until today.... I do not remember how it was. It was better for me, then, to say straight out: I simply was working in the organs, I was working in the organs, I was working in the organs (rabotal v organakh). As far as I know, you at one time emphasized that ((it was)) "How about work in counterintelligence?" Understand me -— I did not know where I would (("will" = budu) work, in intelligence or in counterintelligence. I did not know -~ this I remember exactly. I did not know. Now you say that Bogdan said to you or asked you, "How.about work...." ((Interrupts)) What do I think (Chto ya dumayu).... ",.. In State Security, or what do you think...,." Well, “in the organs of State Security", "in the Ministry for State Security", "in the MGB" or how((ever)) it was said. Alright (khorosho). Continue. What else ((''further" = dal'she))? Well, I understood him, that he has broad connections at his disposal and that he will help me in this problen. I told him that I was on (("'am on" = nakhozhus')) leave, When ((it would be)) necessary for him either to somehow ((one word DoclId: 327404699 Page 29
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 30 SECRET ‘oS - 26 - he omitted in conversation; probably meant "contact")) me, in order to i I, well, I do not know -- in order to put me in some kind of official position. He said: "Do not worry about this. They will do it; this will be the work of Personnel ((Department)), and they will put your Ministry in the know." I asked: "But will you set it for me or not?" I do not remember what he answered, but to my mind he said, "It is not your affair; they will handle this without you." For all that, I soon, soon -= well, maybe after several days -= in the Ministry of the Navy, I told about this (ob etom fakte). This conversation, then, took place on the first or second of January 1953, with KOBULOV at his dacha? ((Without certainty)) Yes. What more (Chto dal'she bylo)? The party ended, KOBULOV left or you left them. What more did you do during the month of January? I do not remember when it was, but there was a phone call, at the apartment on Gor'kiy Street, (ulitsa Gor'kogo); there was a phone call, ((and)) they asked me. ((to come)) to the telephone; they said that they were talking ((‘are talking" = govoryat)) with me from the Ministry for State Security. Approximately when was this? In January. In January. In January. How, approximately, was ((this)) said toyou?
HW 53716 SECRET NU ~ 27 = ~~ I was told that they were talking with me from the Ministry for State Security, that I should come to the Pass Bureau (Byuro Propuskov) on Kuznetsk iy Most. There I would receive a pass and go to the building where -- the room ((number)) was indicated on the pass _ where they would (Ct will" - budut)) talk with me. When was this? In January . In January? In January . When did you go there? They told me the date, and.... Let us suppose that the phone call was today -- I do not remenber* == me =«~- I went to Kuznetskiy Most. I received a pass, appeared at Building (Dom) 12, Building 12, ((there is)) an entrance (pod"yezd) there; now, ((wait)) one minute, Building 12. This is an entrance (vkhod) not across from Building 2, but from Malaya Lubyanka... an entrance (vkhod)... around the corner. On Malaya Lubyanka, there is a courtyard (dvorik) and here is the entrance (pod"yezd), then, to FINO ((Finance Department))... ((Counts on his fingers:)) one, two, three... the eighth or ninth entrance (pod"yezd) The Party Committee (('Partkom")) is located at this entrance (pod"yezd), and at this same entrance the Komsomol organization of the Committee ((for State Security)) is located. At this same entrance is a dietetic restaurant. At the same entrance is (("site" - sidyat)) Personnel (Kadry). DoclId: 327404699 Page 31 as; ARE
HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 32 Ne = 23 m. Well, let us stop on this ((point)). Let us speak frankly (pryamo): if you know to what entrance (pod"yezc you came, then please say ((so)); if you do not know exactly, please say ((so)).... X I said the eighth or ninth entrance (pod"yezd) of Building (Dom) 12. You have explained to me almost exactly what is located at the eighth entrance. — Let us stop for a minute on the ninth, the ninth entrance. Where is this entrance, and what was located there? I told (skazal) what was located there... What was located ((there))? “At the ninth entrance? At this entrance, on the second floor (na vtorom etazhe) -- a restaurant, a dietetic restaurant. This is at what entrance? This is the eighth or ninth entrance. But more exactly? I can draw for you ((a picture of)) what entrance I have in mind, but I do not remember the numbering (numeratsiya). Let us stop. It is not necessary to draw ((a picture)) for me, because I see all entrances (pod"yezdy) so very well. Well, alright (khorosho), The fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth. No, there is no ninth, then, ((but an)) eighth. eth
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 33 ~~ — , . a The eighth entrance. What is located at the eighth entrance. At the eighth entrance, the dietetic restaurant on the second floor; at the eighth entrance -- ((there is)) the library. .bo, At the eighth entrance on the seventh floor; the seventh, it seems, either the seventh or the eighth there -- the Party Committee (Partkom) of the Committee ((for State Security)); one floor up (etazhom vyshe) _- the Komsomol organization of the Committee ( (for State Security)), and here, at this same entrance, Personnel (Kadry): the sixth or eighth or ninth -= these floors; I do not remember . Again. As a former KGB employee to a former KGB employee, I wish simply to remind ((you)) that if you know exactly what was located at the eighth entrance and you went to the eighth entrance, then please say ¢s But I have told you what was located ((there)) and where I went. For your information, no one from the Personnel Department ever was located at the eighth entrance. I was a ROZHENKO's ((office)), chief of the Personnel Section (otdeleniye Kadrov), if you want to know. At ROZHENKO's (1G), surname (familiya) I know. I do not want now to pose the question that you never saw ROZHENKO, Probably you even saw him and talked ((with him)), but ((the question concerns the fact)) that at that time ROZHENKO never sat at the eighth entrance. It was precisely he who was sitting (Imenno-on sidel) ((there)) as
HW 53716 A. Nee - 30 - as chief, being chief of the section (otdeleniye), in 1953. He was chief of the section, and he was sitting ((there)), and I talked with him in 1953, before the beginning of ((my)) work there. Or, one time he saw me, ((and)) I talked with him. ((XG -= A and B talk at the same time)) Here ((is)) Building 12. You worked there -- if one is to believe what you have told us before this -- quite a long time (dovol'no prodolzhitel'noye vremya). In Building 2. In Building 2. It is nearby (Eto ryadom), you yourself know. Well, let us begin in order -- what, after 10 years ((there)), must you most likely know approximately, what entrances there are in Building 12 and even what directorates (upravleniye) or departments (otdel) were there? Imagine that you still -- until the present time _- are in the MGB or KGB, and you Simply and in a friendly way are telling and explaining what you know. I not at all pose the question that you never talked with ROZHENKO, that you never saw ((him)), etc., but that you said that a restaurant is there and library is there.... ((interrupts)) All on the eighth (Vse na 8=om). .. And the Party Committee (Partkom) is there -- all of this is correct, but one ((thing)) that I want to say.... ((Interrupts)) The Personnel Department. ... The Personnel Department was not situated on this eighth floor (etazh) at that time when you went to work in the organs of the MGB, and it never was (i ne byl). DoclId: 327404699 Page 34
HW 53716 B. RET I cannot tell you that the whole Personnel in its entirety was (("sat" - sidel)) at this entrance (pod"yezd) - no, not in any those, those with whom I talked, the people -- to my thinking, I was on the sixth floor (etazh). (?To my thinking?), they talked with me on the sixth floor. On the sixth floor. ROZHENKO's employee, from ROZHENKO's section (otdeleniye), talked with me. I do not even remember his name. So both (?ROZHENKO?) and everything, everything ((is)) at this same entrance (pod"yezd). Your'see, the question stands before us -- either we will continue the conversation and -= as they say -- put your case in order, as you promised from the very beginning, or we will move on to a completely different subject. Please. I am here only in order to help you and to have a correct. presenta tion and to give my friends who have worked with you here some information. Because they cannot believe what you say. I even more cannot; even more, I cannot. Unfortunately. Well, alright, if you were there for 10 years, let us stop here: what was at the ninth entrance (pod"yezd)? I have told you what was at the ninth entrance. I do not know more ((of)) what was there. You explained the eighth to me. DoclId: 327404699 Page 35
oa — B. Well, the eighth entrance, well, I have in mind this last entrance (konechnyy pod"yezd); generally speaking, there was no ninth in. Building 12. Because, you see, from this, the front, side of Building 2, Building 2, so, Building 2, opposite Building 12, from this side, then, the last entrance (pod"yezd) ((is)) the fourth, the fourth, where the Second Department (otdel) of the OTU was located (("sat" - sidel)); the Sixth Special Department (Spetsotdel) ; the Sixth, well, now this is the OTU, the Sixth, the Sixth Special Department, part (chast') of the Second Special Department, not all. Now, you go around the corner, around the corner, no, Malaya Lubyanka Street (ulitsa), here it is -- Malaya Lubyanka, around the corner there is not one entrance (pod"yezd), but a small doorway to the courtyard (a vkhodik vo=dvor), a grille (reshetka), an iron grille; you enter the courtyard, here ((as)) the fifth ((entrance)) _. I never (("not once" ~ ni razu)) entered the fifth; the sixth entrance an I went in the sixth, it ((is)) FINO, there, concerning money and travel documents; the seventh entrance -- whether I was there or not I do not even remember; the eighth entrance -- this ‘ here is the last. Well, then, here ((are)) the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth -- the last -- ((that is)) all. There are no more. This is in one small courtyard (dvorik). That ((is)) all of the entrances of Builging 12. A. Well, where is the ninth’ B. There is no ninth. I simply said (("'say" - govoryu)) the eighth or the ninth. This entrance is the eighth. Because here from this side the fourth ((is the)) last, opposite Building 2, but here a— around the corner -=— there is the entrance to the courtyard and these entrances: fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth. ((That is)) all. | HW 53216 DBocld:32404699 Page 36
HW 53716 A, B. A. C We will return... ((Interrupts)) We will return.... ((XG = A and B speak at the same time. )) sae ((Wait)) One minute; we will return to these entrances. I cannot in any way imagine that a person who has worked for 10 years in counterintelligence can say, could try to state to a person who worked at the ninth entrance that there is no ninth entrance. I cannot in any way understand this. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. I am telling (Ya govoryu) ((you)) what I know.... Listen, a person who has worked so many years probably knows how many entrances ((there are)) in Building 2 and in Building 12. I say that ((there)) is not. There cannot be a ninth entrance there, because further on behind this building is (('goes" - idet¥) the Moscow Oblast and Moscow City Directorate (Upravleniye Moskovskoy Oblasti i Goroda Moskvy) ((of State Security)). | ((That is)) all, and there is nothing more. Correct, but where is the ninth entrance. I do not know where the ninth ((is)). There is no ninth. I do not know the ninth entrance, because, right away, you see, this small courtyard, so, the iron grille, the end, this little courtyard ends here, here a part __ the restaurant comes out here onto Lubyanka and just (srazu zhe) after the restaurant, it comes up nearby, here it is as Building 12, a continuation of Building 12, the Directorate of the City of Moscow and of Moscow Oblast. ((That is)) all, ((that is)) all. DoclId: 327404699 Page 37
HW 53716 A, DoclId: 327404699 Page 338 = \ ~~ I agree, I agree. ((That is)) all. But ((there is)) the entrance from Lubyanka, of course. Alright (khorosho). Let us suppose for a minute that you have arrived in the Personnel Department (Otdel Kadrov); whom did you first meet there? Let us begin a little further back (nemnozhko nazad), with the Pass Bureau (Byuro Propuskov): you have arrived in the Pass Bureau; ((In English)) what next? There is (Vot) a little window (okoshechko) . I gave ((them my)) officer's identification (C'officer's booklet" _ ofitserskaya knizhka)). I said that there is a pass (propusk) for me. They said, "Wait." But, as usual, they take your document, close the little window, and you wait. The little window opens, the officer's identification is returned with the pass, the pass. In the pass it is indicated, then, Building 12, the entrance, such-~ and~such a room. But do you now remember which entrance and which room this ((was))? ‘No, no, no. Do you still insist (Vy vse nastaivayete) that this place was at the eighth entrance (pod"yezd)’ At the eighth; yes. Yes, yes, yes. I went (khodil) to this entrance, only to this entrance. And when I talked with ROZHENKO and with this person -- to my thinking, I talked with him two times.
HW 53716 Docld: 37404699 Page 39 Who ((was)) this person? I do not know ((his)) surname. In my opinion, ((he was)) a case officer or senior case officer. You went there. To whom was ((your)) pass made out (byl vypisan)? To ROZHENKO? No, no. The pass was made out, room such-and-such six hundred... there, to my thinking, six hundred... to my thinking, the sixth floor, but I do not remember exactly. . Whether there was shown (ukazano) a name (familiya) ~~ ((it)) must be shown, but I do not remember -- I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember. I came to. this --1 remember, then, that when I came to this room, I went up; I went in the eighth entrance, went up... wait, where did I remove ((my coat))? I took off ((my coat)) here, downstairs (vnizu); correct. Below (Vnizu), at the eighth ((entrance)), I removed ((my coat)), went up, knocked at ((the door to)) this room, and there sat several people: three or four, all in civilian clothes. | They said, "Wait." Alright (khorosho), I wait. Let us begin from when you came in the entrance. You said that you removed ((your coat)). Where did you remove ((your coat))? Here, downstairs (Zdes' zhe vnizu), at the eighth ((entrance)). What -= ((is)) there enough space (("place" - mesta)) for the removal of outerwear (("undressing" ~ razdevaniye) )‘ You see, it is this way (Videte-li v chem delo): there they remove