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Reel # 2 “26 July 1365 ((Reels #1 and #2 “overlap")) TRANSLATION SAVCHENKO (A SAVCHENKO) ((was)) Chairman of the KGD in Mondavie. ({the Moldavian SSR)). He was in Yoldavia. You are certain. Yes, absolutely. You know his first name (imya). No, I do not remember. I know -= ((he is a)) general. SAVCHENKO == he was in Noldavia. He was, ((wait)) one minute, SAVCHENKO was after BERIYA; SAVCHENKO was at one time Deputy ((Minister)), here, after BERIYA, he was a Deputy ((Q@linister)) for us ((iIVD)). Where, In the MVD, in the MVD, the IVD, he was a Deputy ((inister)). And, to my thinking, there even was some period, when SEROV came, he was under SEROV, and then he removed him and he was for many years, in recent years he has worked all of the time in Moldavia, as Chairman of the KGB ((there)), yes. You know this exactly. Yes; that SAVCHENKO has been in Moldavia all these years, exactly. ADE RONEDI GO RIREUGAS E9190. ogomey Gif STOLL LE) FOR © ? pea tine neem enpemetees seme sate ors a emis emetinita sapecueet me! ome matic ween Rey
14-00000 proven A. Let us suppose that there was Still another (yeshche odin) SAVCHENZO. Bb. Precisely this SAVCHENHO, who at one time was Chief of the First Directorate, Chairaan of the KGP in Moldavia. And I do not now any other SAVCHENAO. Do you know some other SAVCHENKO: I do not know. I thint: that this is that one who at one tine was in the Ukraine (€the Ukrainian SSR)), 2 Minister. Now we are talxing about that one who was in the Ukraine and that one who was chief of Intellisence, and so forth. This one; he is in Noldavia, until recently (do poslednego vreneni) in Moldavia. I simply am asking, in a friendly way, ure you certain of this or not. It is precisely this SAVCHENKO ((whom)) I have in mind. I now am asking: Is there another SAVCHENKO there. I do not know, I do not know. Lote 5 Have you ever heard of another Lt Gen (General-leytenant) SAVCHENKO? I not (ne)... this one who ((is)) in Moldavia, Chairman of the KGB. I sinply am asking, have you ever heard of another Lt Gen SAVCHENXO- % do not know. i do not remember. Let us assume that the SAVCHENKO who was chief of Intelligence aod. _-Z SEE} ———. wee wean bree ee net RO ey ELS ere ee Se
Ruining entre ger“ the Tkra Le and fai 7 OUr Op int p~((4e))lieleter-dauss Woldavia, ((that)) his true first name (nastoyashcheye inya) ((is)) Sergey Romanovich.... B. IL do not know. Bete tet aco Goth + A. ...bieutenant General... enpecete sete ateot aan et pew a aby ah Goth eB adtetgebucd B, Lieutenant General. A. All the trouble ((is)) in the following, you understand «= you already have repoeated (povtoryayete) this several times and you say that he was “inister in the Ukraine, and so forth. You know that in Moldavia, the Hinister for State Security or the Chairnan o! the Connittce for State Security, in your time and now -=- to the present day -- is (sidit), or, in any case, last year, was: Lt Gen SAVCHENXO, Ivan Tikhonovich. B. (1G)... SAVCHENKO, what his first nane ((is)) I do not know. | i But I do not know his first name. A. You see, I want to say, when you are not certain or do not know.... B. ((Interrupts)) So, but more I do not know the first name; I an saying, SAVCHENKO.... A. You say that that SAVCHENKO who previously was in the Ukraine ((and)) then was chief of Intelligence, now he is Minister in Moldavia.... B. In Moldavia, yes, this one. A. But I want to tell you that there is another Lt Gen ((SAVCHENKO)) and not this SAVCHENKO, but ((another)) SAVCHENKO; I have given (nazval) you both correct first names; im Moldavia, the Chairman of the KGB whom you know as this one, the other SAVCHENKO, . whose name ((is)) Sg Paty de at: & Ivan Tixhonovich, who also at one time was a KGB employee and at —SsEGhE-——
14-00000 A. One tine, 420 GMPsOYee OL LOC VERY VOMEL AL Glade * SUC RA Se Bed abid fof aires Taerefore, I am asking you whether you have heard something interesting : Bee sie with recard.... (Cinterrupts)) SAVCHENO -= that is the last nane (familiya), and that is what I said. ' Tae question is (stoit) in the following: that -- you sec =- it is hard to believe that a person -= as they say -~ wno worked there 11 years either tries to say that he does not know something or wants to show that he knows. No, wnat I know, I tell, only what. I know. Between us, tne SAVCILEXEO who was in the Ukraine, in- Intelligence and so forth and so forth, Sergey Romanovich, everyone (vse sobaki) in the whole world knows hin. Well, tell ((me, if it is)) no secret. Everyone also knows that SAVCHENXO whom you do not know -- or wish to say that you do not know -= because his nane is everyvhnere in the newspapers, without any cover; the questior is (stoit) in the followings: that, you understand, if you do not know what happened with the SAVCHENKO who was chief of Intelligence, etc., if you do not know that it is precisely he in Moldavia, then please do not Say.... ((Interrupts)) I am telling you what I know, as (kak) I know. Why do you pose the question so. I pose the question so, because there are two SAVCHENKOs, and (Cit was)) not that SAVCHENKO of whom you speak that was in Holdavia, but quite another, and I want to pin down (podvesti) here that you as an employee of 11 years must know the other, wie also is a lieutenant - general, ((and)) why you do not Know hin. ——SteRED t Hi i i i t FS t cevewnnmpansn ta cee seems ceedings means sm é f fete AE 8
14-00000 Pek ieas Ste -~ Soe 4 GO BOt KhOwW this, I heard the last name (faniliya), and ((taat is)) all. If you have heard this last nane (faniliya), then you must have heacd the last nane (faniliya) of that one a hundred tines more. Maybe I did hear (Cit), but I do not know. Ian tellinz you that I do not know and that neither one of (ni odin iz) the SAVCHENKOs ever was my chief, ever. He stood closer, closer to the Second Chief Directorate than this one. Not one of ny, of these SAVCHENSOs was my chicf. Uy chief was FEDOTOV, SIIUBNYAKOV, GRILDANOV; I an saying ((that)) these ((were)) the big chiefs. I do not think that you are trying to understand me well. I am trying to understand you well. How is this -=— I am not trying to understand you well. it is in my interests (Eto v moixh interesatch) . I an trying to explain to you that if you, as an enployee who worked ((there)) for 11 years, know the SAVCHENKO who was in the Ukraine, who was chief of Intellicence, who then found himself with neither business nor position, what happened to him, then you ndne hin, ((say)) that he ((is a)) Minister in Moldavia. J am telling you -- and this ((is)) established by the facts, even Soviet newspapers, including the names, etc. etc.... Of course. Deputies are elected, there ((are)) Soviets (tam sovety).... .--Another person, but not this person. Wy question: What do you know happened to the SAYCHENKO who was _—-SEGHET- chief of Intelligence: ; ‘ H sane acto NEN fs hy tebe dbe al cat Ben |
14-00000 the HVD, that there was a SAVCHENXO, the nane SAVCHENKO, General — SAVCHENKO was chief Gf Intcllisence and then SAVCHENAO, before this . SAVCHENXO, supposedly, was, well, a Minister in the Uiira ite ; that this SAVCHENKO ((is)) Chairnan of the KGB in Moldavia. That is all I know about SAVCHENKO. Which SAVCHENKO: ! You made this cor:lusion yourself, or you knew ((this)) when you were working. ((tnterrupts)) Well, when I was working, I knew; here I heard a little bit, here a little bit of something. From where (1G). Because each person, Soviet, who works in intelligence, in counter- intelligence, especially in recent times, he knows the difference exactly and he knows both SAVCHENKOs from top to bottom (kak obluplennyye). I think not (Ya ne dumayu), because.... Both of them are lieutenant generals, both are lieutenant generals, both are connected with intelligence and counterintelligence. So, the question is (stoit): either you were there and must know exactly, or you were not there and do not know. I said what I know. We will say this: that I am saying what I know.... Of course.... I certainly am not trying to contradict the facts, to tell-you . something superfluous or to mone out something unusual; I am saying Sieh I know, as I told you, that there was a SAVCHENKO... in the KGB,:. i” : H i 3 ‘ :
A. |The whole question lies in this. _ In fact, facts. And I am telling you that I did not xnow this.... ((XG = A and B speak at the sane tine)) .-..To explain these facts articulately. You may (rmozhete) know millions of other thinzcs which I do not know. But I know millions of things which you do not ‘now. Well, what do you want fron ne. Tell ((se)), please, that a person -- if he had worked 11 years, Knows GOGLIDZE, MASLENNIKOY.... ((interrupts)) I heard, I do not know, I do not know, but I have heard the name. ..- Must know SAVCHENSO, Ivan Tikhonovich, also. Working in the Second Chief Directorate, even if you did not write any kind of reports (( letters" - pis'ma)) to hin, probably some kind of papers (bumagi) came from him every week. I do not want to tell you.... ((Interrupts)) ({I did not see any)) papers over SAVCHENKO's signature (za podpis'yu SAVCHENKO). If you did not see ((such papers)), then again there is (stoit) a big question: were you there at this time: I am not trying to go into something deeply (zalazit' kuda-to gluboko); I simply am taking those persons and figues who are so outstanding (sxotoryye prosto s nog sshibatel'nyy) ((that)) one cannot be mis—. taken; @ person who.... _ SE ba cepsingeesseneey emi tene hme eee tatee ts afer
ough ‘are speaine)) Russian. We are talinz in two different lancuaces. You want me to understand, you want me to :o by the same method of thought as you do. . } 4 I cannot; I am going as I can. Taat which I have here ((B points to his head)), that which I renember, that which I know. i 4 A. Let us return arain to one small question. You affirmed (utverzhdayete), only several minutes ago, ((that)) having pone to work in the MGB or the UVD in March 1353, you received for some tice (nekotoroye vrenya) a basic pay (oklad) of 1,700 rubles, plus, ((for)) rank -- 500 rubles. I do not want to accuse you of lying or of lics or of something clse, but all of this contradicts the facts. In the KGB «= on, the MVD, at that time -- they already were not receiving ((pay)) for rank in March, and therefore you could not have received money ((ikh: den'gi)) for rank when you started work (postupil: B. I know tnaat they did not receive ((pay)) for rank for a year (v techeniye goda) and ((then)) they began to receive ((Pay)) for rank again, and ((that is)) all. When, what dates, I do not remember. A, Understand ((me)); this is no explanation: "When, what dates, I do _ not remember...." | 1 sentient B. ((Angrily)) But I cannot give you ((the dates)). aomnpetr eee And if I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. A. Nowyou have said that you do not know. Five minutes ago.... ; =: i ‘ B. ((interrupts)) I said that they gave ((pay)) for rank, then they : stopped giving ((pay)) for mnk, and then again it was returned a7 (vernulos') anew. seh a amet ge: ERE} -———
ABT jnve-received(( pay) ) for rank; because “atv this-tine-they*a2 were not paying ((for rank)). They already were not paying. Well, then, they did not pay for a year, and then they began again ~ to pay for rank. You told me that you received 1,760 ((rubles)), plus 500 for rank. I asked you three times: “Are you certain." Yes. “Exactly. Of course, I am certain... later ((they began to give)) me again 1,700 and 500.. We are not talking of later, now. I am saying that in March you began work and you told me that your first pay was, as a case officer, 1,700, plus 500, for rank. In March and April, etc. == I do not want to say watil when -- they were not paying ((for rani)). . But how strange you are (No, kakoy zhe Vy strannyy)! But I do not want to deceive you -- I received ({pay)) for rank, they receive 1,700 for position (za dolzhnost') and 500 for rank; ((wait)) one minute; I an not deceiving you, 1,700 for rank as a case officer, that is, 1,700 for position, basic pay; 500 ~~ ((for)) rank (pogony). For a period of about a year I did not receive this 500 for rank; I received only the 1,700 plus longevity pay (vysluzhnyye) -= this longevity (vysluzhnyye) ((pay)), secrecy ((pay)), and so forth. I have no intention of deceiving you, We were saying that you started. (postupili) in March and immediately they paid you 1,700; I am not posing a question about this money; 1,700 rubles was the basic pay of a case officer. SECRET Ae cers ean eo one taste 6 a Sena eeene epe gay ' j i [ Sinha
oF xe It was and is. True. It was; and, at one tinc, they were paying for rant. They paid a lieutenant 500; everyone knows this; and ((taey did so)) in the Arny, also. For a senior ((licutenant)), GOO. ‘This ((vas)) usual (Eto ka: obychno), yes, yes. Int the question is (stoit) ((in that)): they already vere not payine ((for rank)) in March. But, you see, you... such hooks you put out (tariye iyyuchoki stavite). This is not a hook.... ((Interrupts)) It is a hook. ..tt is a fact which, you understand, you could in no way get around. - But the important fact is ((only)) in that they did not pay me for rank for a year and ((then)) again ((paid me)) 1,700, 500 and longevity pay (vysluchnyye). Well, but when, what, well, I do not remember. In any case, a person =-- if he really came fron the Navy, where he received.... ((interrupts)) there, for rank, yes.... ...And now he had come here, perhaps his ((pay)) for position ((is)) higher, but he will remember very well ((that)) they do not pay hin for rank. —-SECEF——— tate whee antes | ERt ses Hagin dees Ebao
14-00000 2 OA. _ We: tanis "- you nor your colleagues before-you, here are auest ons somchow ((aré)) not what you want, to ce such questions.... C(XG - A and B speak at the sane tine)) ...Well, I did not even pay attention to money . You asked ne -— ((wait)) one minute, excuse me -~ you asked ne: but you asked ne how much is (bucet) the basic pay (oxlad). I said: no. Why: I did not ask more. No, ((wait)) one minute, buy why. And do you know why. Because at that time it was not (ne stoyal) a question of money. At that time, it was not important (( did not play a role" = roli ne igral)) for me. I certainly am not posing a question about money. Whether it was or was not important. i asked you two or three times and you repeated. 1,700, 500, plus ((pay for}} secrecy, there, etc. If you began (postupili) in March you could not have received (€pay)) for rank. Well, then... well, if they were not giving it from the time (s momenta) of STALIN's death, then I began to receive ((it)) after a year. . For a year they did not pay it. 1,700, 500 and ((pay for)) secrecy, longevity. Let us say so¢ —— SEE —— a tpt coe on eset nttan ates nae eens aupegpentcte a eancortreaten set i aed 3 <
B. _ Aino Moret! ne-wEn ine gaping Looks bike -the-trath-¢(trery-t-ne-try, to make sense and truth out of your statements)). Yes, and I ((am trying)) to say only the truth (eye). Ah, you are trying. Well, I am trying. It does not turn out that way; they stopped paying not only after STALIN, but at some other tine. You, having --orked there, must know this. One can in no way disregard this. I certainly do not deny the fact, we will not speax with exactitude (techno), ((ef)) how much they were paying and to whom for secrecy, for language, for longevity, etc. It is not so important; a person can forget, ((whether)) they paid him 10 or 15% and some kind of increment (nadbavka} for language, for secrecy or for longevity, etc.; but when they took away ((the ‘ pay)) for rank -~- so -- this is very sensitive (chuvstvitel'no). For the officer it was very sensitive and very important.... ((XG = A and B speak at the same time)) For you, this, you say that this had no significance; 0.K., SO; but for the ordinary mortal officer, you know, if a person is a colonel, this right away.... 1,300.... «ee 2,300 rubles. Of course; with longevity ((pay)) (s vysluzhnymi).... ——Sih j | | :
vennessate ain stom wee EY EE o mnmee tat matcnmmannti stm eee fc rien + B. ...tnis then runs to 1,600... well, 1,600. Taerefore, for ((this)) one reason only, I have posed this question. I do not remember when. I tell you that they paid me 1,700 asa ease officer, 500 -- for rank. Was it a year, In the beginning, a year, whether at the end of 1953 or the beginning of 1954, but perhaps you are right, from the beginning of 1953, risht from the monent, for approximately a year they were not paying for rank. | Then again they began to pay for rank. ((Pauses)) Look, you are building on this some kind of (1G) that I did not exactly say this, this. Well, you see, they do not forget such things... In this question ((there is)) no exactness, because I am trying to get at only the fact itself: you said that when you went to work you received ((pay)) for rank, but at this time they were not paying ((for rank)). I can in no way wnderstand how you could have received ((it)). Taat is my question (Vot moy vopros). I think that this, such a simple.... For a year (Na protyazhenii goda) I did not receive ((pay)) for rank ((Laugas)); the rest ((of the time)), I received ((it)). When did I not receive ((it)): I do not remember. But all ((personnel)) did not receive ((it)), not only I. Tae same question. Of course, in common life ((and)) work, perhaps it is not so important about SAVCHENKO, ete i | i fe eernereteee weep ster tennens grapes
14-00000 ‘for you — cho, as is said, W¥ked there —- ((to know that there are) two SAVCHENKOs is the same, everyone knows, it is the same as knowin GRIDANOV -- the same, the sanc. ((In a low voice)) No. Absolutely the sane. ((In a low voice)) No, And you, when you are. talking about one and you make a mistake -=- let us say, you mistake the name and so forth, you do not know another, but you do not know another -- it is in no way possible to believe that a person who had worked ((there)) 11 years would not know, because ne also ((i.e., the other SAVCHENiO)) is a lieutenant general and a big wheel (bol'shaya shishka). One can in no way disregard ((this)). Excuse me; may I tell you one thing: I began to work, I came as a case officer, I worked (rabotayu) as a case officer in 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, and ~= excuse me for the vulgar ex <pression -- I needed te know SAVCHENKO, Marshal TIMIOSHENKO and someone ({else, like them)) as I needed to know my ass (mne do zhopy bylo SAVCHENKO...) ((1.e., it was absolutely unnecessary)). For me, I came, I began (nachinayu) to work. om Later, later, I became deputy chief of a section (otdeleniye); when (@)); from 1958, it was important for me here to whom, in what name, to write a paper (bumagu pisak'), to whom, something.else. But working as a rank and file employee, for me it was, ah.... I agree. . oo, Lo - That you had no great interest. Yes, and not only ((no great)) interest; even.... fell, it was remote (nedosyagayemo) . i é $ Fi t
14-00000 we Sew Fo MOIS. & Oe Be Peeiptearn er Cette ARON MeME EEE Heo Bhs Hine eke Inaccessible (nedosyagayemo). The problen is in that he of whom you are speaking is not ((there)), but the one (tot) who is working there 25 years and who is there today you do not know. This is the problem (Vot v chem vopros). You understand, Pecause if you were working there, you vould tell ne now exactly what the second SAVCHENKO did and, immediately, the difference between then, because everyone (kazhdaya sobaka) Knows. know one SAVCHENKO, to my thinking, this is ((the only)) one, perhaps, perhaps I am mistaken here ({(when)) I give you the positions (dolzhnosti) in whith both wort:ed, perhaps. (Cin English)} No, no. They both were working all of the time in different ((positions)) and ((in English)) no connections. Of course, by way of work there were ((in English)) connections, but this SAVCHENKO of whom I am speaking had, had more business with the Second Chief Directorate than with the First. We will return to this in due time. Good. As you wish. . voee I want, I want now (kak raz).... ((Interrupts)) I did not write to anyone, I did not read papers over the signature of SAVCHEN;O.... One minute, one minute, one minute, one minute.... a ((Tries to speak, but B interrupts)) May ((I)) say? PAE ROE URINE Nae OG nee De NEES nF ij. is i . ee cease coins nepe ne ape “a z 4 | 2 } f q
fe gpa ae (@le is thiniine hard.)} I thins ((that)) under (u}) SEROV, uncer Ivan SERCV, a deputy was... SAVCHENXO... ((he thinks asain))} SAVCHENEO, Well, you understand, it did not happen thet I (ne prikhodilos’ ane) associated ((with hin)). Ho. I do not know, do not know, I co not snow, I do not renenher, I do not remember. I an afraid to say anythin’ (Poyus' chto-to siazat'); I do not rerienber , I do not want ((to)). You see, this cuestion ((is)) so -- as it vere ~~ sinple, when everyone (kachdaya sobai:a) xnows these two people, especially in the KGB, beginning fron the snall (({i.ec., lowly)) and up to the great; they have beenwrhing (ratotayut} there a lons time nov, and they have the same nancs «= only different ((first names and)) patronynics; they have the sane rank (zvaniya), they have the sane rani. And, of course, when you as a person, you have cone here, etc., and you talx about one -- let us say, they made a mistake, they put simply SAVCHENKO in this place, where the other ((is)); but, not ~ knowing about the other == it certainly is almost inpossible to believe that you worked there such a long tine, 11 years. Because without knowing this person (bez zgnaniya etogo chelovex2), it is in no way possible. Well, I do. not know. I am telling you what I know. ((That is)) all. He was not under gome kind of great (velikaya) cover at that (v svoye). en ee otal
AF arb Bg . BER. Beth tae veh etnte aes & mancnnerttoneesignt EUR ivhveenefienenbenensacteeetipenpneebiaahenenannh ope + oF a ee ...Tine he was... in the Central Counittee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Ts XPSS), which everyone also knew there, and he came sere, ((where)} also everyone knew hin. How, he is the Chairman of the GB of the Holdavian SSR. In any event, he was ((there)), a year ago, as far as we know. He nas been (sidit) there in Noldavia many years. And it is thourht (schitayetsya) that he soon will leave. He ((is)) in such a trap (zagon), a trap (fi.e., he has been "stuck away" or “pivseon-holed")). Well, (Vet, vot), he must ((go)) on pension. You are saying this about your (o svoyen) SAVCHEKO; I am taliing.... About the Holdavian. About the Yoldavian, of whon I am speaking, but not that une of whon you are speaking.... But I do not know the first name, patronymic. SAVCHENKO, General SAVCHENKO. ...And therefore it is rather difficult to say ((vhether he is)) in a trap or not in a trap; perhaps that SAVCHENKO who was in intelligence is in a trap, or- maybe they threw him out long ago. You must know better about this. I have in mind the Moldavian ((SAVCHENKO)). I have in mind that one who was in intelligence and was in the Ukraine. . But that SAVCHENKO, of whom you know absolutely nothing -- he ((is)) Chairman in Moldavia, but not that one of whom you were speaking in the beginning and several times later. ——— SRT cece apemene 4. : rs a] 4 & 3 *
those people vho were talking With you, when it nown as certainty, it is 106% clear as in broad daylicht tnat it is not that SAVCHENXO, but the other you do not know; it is hard to believe on that you yourself were there. I uh (Cin English)) You see. GB. Well, see, see. on nee een ye oo a He: r pale Eds ETRE LES AN 20 Iam saying ((it)) as I remenber and that which I imow. A. I an trying to see and to find a conmon language so that you begin avanti Mae has, more or less to speak more plausibly, but, we take one question, another question, ((and)) there (qappear)) small, but in some cases . quite large, mistakes which one cannot in any way believe. I want to repeat this thing again ~~ you told me straight out that you received ((pay)) for rank when they did not pay for rank at this tinc. | How can I believe that you were there at this tine. eee ‘hede oR, Ut B. Ha, ha, ha, ha; you know, in general, you are a fine fellow, telling jokes (anexdoty rasskazyvat').... But why, for what. on Na. You do not know when I was there or was not there; well, you are | gayine funny things; well, really, we are grown men (vzroslyye lyudi). ; I do not know. Well, ((if)) you do not believe, then you do not believe me. ira a cd Why, then, talk with me; why, then, talk with me, in general, and siemens nertinseeeemete ome net eet Sees drag this out (tyanut’ etu lyanku) ((wnen)) once you do not believe mney Site iD DEAD ET © ((If)) you do not believe, then you do not believe. I cannot jump higher than my head. A. You are trying. B. No, no; i see that you are trying -= as your colleagues before you b: expressed ((it)) -= to ‘find some kind of hooks (Qxryuchochk i) and to
wae ee ek he Een ee ee ge ee Well, ((it is)) not this ((which {s)) {mportant. Well, ({it is)} important not that ((3's surnanec)), this ((B's surnanc)), who sits here, said that from March ((onward)) he received : 300 ((rubles)) for rank, 1,700 for, ah, basic pay for position Es (dolzhnostnoy olad). belie Uh oe oe aS anal bl “But in Uarch of 1953 they were not giving ((pay)) for rank. “Hal We have caught hin." . Vell, you catch me; let us discuss ({this as it is)) in reality (po-zhiteyski), as it is in life. I tell you: I received 1,700 as a case officer ,fm@ rant: «~ 500. For a year (V techeniye soda) they were not giving ((pay)) for rank. ; Which: | About, it scens to me, I thint:, ‘39, at the end of 1353, the berinning of 1954, they were not giving ((pay)) for rank. © But, again, I do not remember. A. In my opinion, so, in my opinion, you know exactly when they were not giving ((pay for rank)). I want you to dig up this dog ((i.e., tell the truth - etu sobaku razryt')). You yourself know.... B, Understand (Poymite), if, so, you do not give me ((a chance)) to say, I told you that fron such=and-such a time until such-and-such they were not giving us ((pay)) for rank, and we now would have (ne stoyalo...) by no questions of any kind and we would not be dwelling on this, if I had known ((when)). A. A KGB employee would say ((it)) so, that they were paying fron such-and-such a time until such-and-such ((a time)) and from such- and-such ((a time)) they did not pay. B. Yes; why are you laughing (Vy chtc smeyetes' ): ((B laughs))
One must ((i.ec., I have to say so)). Well, this is a joke (anekdot). oa (Cin English)) Well. 48 Understand ((it)) as you wish ({i.e., take it hovever you Like)). 4. Understand ((it)) as you wish. You are a man of great huner ((i.e., you have a great sense of hunor ~ Vy s bol'shin yumoron cheloves)). Honestly, of great hunor. We will talls more about hunor (ly yeshche ob yunoron pogovorim). We have tine enough. Of course. ((Pauses)) Well, if I knew exactly, I would tell you: exactly from this month, until such-and-such a month, they were not giving ((pay)) for rank. 3 I will remind ((you)) only one time more: the point is not that 1 am questioning you, that you must know exactly, that they stopped ((paying for rank)) in that nonth, but they began again to give ((pay for rank)) in this ((nonth)); this certainly is not the point. Even if you were in error by 53 months on this, screw it (khuy § nim), I certainly would not bother (ya sovershenno ne pespoxoyus') about this... : . id Yes, right. ...One thing pothers me; you say you started ((work)) (postupili) in March.... In March.
si 1 eee ere HO os eSPOR EE ANER re te se or i etandeiaces — a7 FBR RRR SE FO SOR FO ee OE OG TO FT SE BG GS Ew FF STOR NS Te Bewih in this tice -='they vere not payinc ((for ranis)). This is the problen (Vot vopros). B. (1G) wnat, I said that they began to pay, oven if (puskay) they beran to pay me later... both... both 1,700 and 500; well, anyway, I began in March (nu, ya to nachal s Marta). Iam telling you that they did not pay for a year, approxinately, for rani: (za pocony), for ran, for a year, then, acain, thank the Lord (slave tebe Gospodi), they returned ((the pay)) for rank. Everyone too: a good breath (Ves' narod vzdo'shnul) and said (1G). A. If we take ((this)) further, there are many -- I do not want to say that perhnars this was forgotten, etc. -- there are many other docunents which can renind ((us)) vhen they wore payinc, when they were not paying.... ((kG; A and B speak at the same time.)) ...The Konsonol card (bilet), Party card, TDY (onadirovochniye), leave (otpuska) ((docunments)).... B. Right. A. ...And so forth and so forth. Even if a person is not interested in money, but this for hin (no eto u nevo).... B. In the Konsomol card.... ((XG; A and B speak at the sane time)) It is obvious (vidno), obvious, right. A. ...Everywhere it is obvious.
t i . i Hy } q i i : i i i { OG bbhg 406 B&B FURL Lise ““((paet is)) all. Rada Ab te prong o a BA a ot They were not paying somewhere there in the hberinnins of my wort. Now, you, of course, are tryine somchow to tell ie what IT an seciiin:ic, Sone ind of tric: (saverznoye) vord, ete.; but just a few ninutes . 4 : 4 azo you said that they stopped ((paying for ran':)} somewhere in tne - a end of 1953 and beran azain in 1954.... i ((interrupts)) (.In ny tine (Pri une), i. my tine, I do not renember. ) _..In the teginnin:: of my ((i.e., B's)) work, they stopped paying ((for rant)). Yes; you are not tellinz me; I aa saying: perhaps, I do not know, I suppose that for a year they did not pay ((for ranx)), as I an telling you. I know exactly that, not in March, not in April, but still sonetine before this, they stopped paying. This is exact. They did not pay for a year, and then it ((i.e., the pay for rank)) was returned, and everything... went (i vse... poshlo). Wel], I have not the slightest wish to hide ((anything)), or to tell other than the truth (ne pravdu), or to deceive. Well, not the slightest. On the contrary, only on the contrary. You, of course, do not want to say that you eannot control your tongue with your head. You can do this well. You already have proven this. And no one questions this, you understand: | You said ‘that you do not want to deceive anyone, etc., etc., but I ‘am not saying that your tongue deceives, but the head = 00.... REF
74-90000 Les conte OBE EMEA eR OS aes ot (Cin English)) You see, because they work torether. A sinzle whole. It certainly does not enter into ny assignnent to somehow give you (stavit' Van kakiye-to).... ((interrupts)) No, your assignnent is sinply to clear up the questions which are not clear for you, and ((that is)) all. ...Tne needle (shpil'ki) or still.... No, no, no. I do not feel ({it to be so)), in any case. We certainly are grown nen (vzrosliyye lyudi). Absolutely; no, no, no. I ask you to continue as you consider necessary. ((That is}) all. I answer as I remember, as I remember. Alright. We will take a break (sdelayem pereryv). Let's go to the toilet, etc. (Poydem nemnozhko possym, posaotrin). X have a great request ((to make)) of you; if it is possible, if it is possible to resolve this question, if possible, perhaps, during our breaks to smoke a little, ha, ha, ha. ((in English)) Alright. j think we will resolve this question favorably. When we return after the break, I think we will give ((you)) a 8
#490000 ; : GABALC & LG. . , tee rr ee B. (:Taanks.) \A. Please. CCBREAN)) . 7 “A, My cigarettes are very weak. I always am trying to quit smoking. ; - 8 They have established that ((it is)) very harmful for the health, but they all smoke. B. Everyone (Vse) continucs to smoke, A. I think that you have been thinking during these (za eti) few minutes. Perhaps you will tell me something new about that of which we have been talking. j B. I was thinking. You know, at one moment it seems there was a SAVCHENKO... mo... nO... It was BEL'CHENKO as Deputy. I said that the Deputy under SEROV was Lt Gen DBEL’CHENKO. I do not remember a second SAVCHENKO, no. A. If we return to the question: when did they stop paying for rank, ) when did they begin to pay again, etc., do you not think that it would be better for you to return to that story which you told earlier ~ that you started work in the organs of the MGB, not in 1953, but in 1952.... B. In 1953. A. Because this question of pay for rank, etc., it is connected with the year 1952, and therefore when you said earlier that you began nee
((actual)) history ((i.e., reality, the truth)), but when you switchea | and bean to insist on 1353, then it is very difficult to put that 43 “which you have said in such orces that, well, for example, ((that is)) a “S.that’ one believes everythins that you have said. i 4 y am not in the least pushing (ne nastraivayu) you.... . i 4a a : 4 B. ((interrupts)) I do not want to tell you a lie (nepravda). f “a A.  ... In some —=— as you say ~~ in some unnecessary direction. a For me, all directions are the sane. : B. For you, tae truth is necessary. I am trying to say...; well, you understand, at tines, of course, I am telling what 1 imagine to nave been the case (to, chto ya predstavlyuyu, kak eto bylo). And, pernaps, I make mistakes. But I cannot pull out (poddernut’) what is not ((there)).... | ((XG; A and B speak at the sane tine)) ; ; In Harch 1953. | i A. Here acain is the question, by the very same, ((pay)) for rank, ! as you said, I have not forced you to say anything (ya ne tyanul . Vas za yazyk) and so forth, you yourself said that.... B. ((Interrupts)) Simply in my imagination (v moyem predstavleniy) — | you understand, in my imagination ~~ that it was soon (v skorosti) -=- i ; in my imagination, I again emphasize this: in my imagination ~~ that | a soon after I (v skorosti kak ya) began work, well, perhaps in the Sy end of 1953 o- in my imagination, you understand ne ~~ they. took 4 . away ((the pay)) for rank and they did not pay us ({for rank)) for approximately a year. — i Then they brought it back (Zaten obratno vernuli). 4 -- 4 1 After this -~ it was later ~~ several tines there vere (Kkhodili) SE
Fagan deh B. ' po you want (Vy chto khotite) to leave the Arny without pants (bez _gphtanov):" ‘FURTSEVA, a nenber, as a nenber of the Presidium, cane out with the.” sugrestion to take away ((the pay)) for rank, both in the Arny and anong us (u nas). @WKOV, who was a member of the Presidium at that tine, was catecoricall; against this. it is not possible to do this in the Army. we sree en npemen vents 1 ethan ahtabataly Not possiblic. And there were persistent rumors that they acain would take away ((the pay)) for rank. . ; - 2 How did they answer FURTSEVA on this. I simply an saying that this was FURTSEVA's sureestion, when she was a member of the Presidiun. What -- was she responsible (otvechala) for the work of the KGS or the Army as a member of the Presidiun: No. As a member of the Presidium, in all probability a question was posed (stoyal vopros) in the Presidium about the economy of resources, about finding additional (dopolnitel'nyye) money, somewhere, somehow, and they resolved the question, the problem was resolved; in part she suggested, as one of the forns, cutting this money. The Army ((is)) huge, has many people (mnogochislennaya) . If ((pay)) for rank ((were)) cut, then huge anounts of money Cogromnyye den’gi) ((would)) be received. In the organs ((of State Security)) and the Army. Is it true that one of the members of the Presidiun answered her: I do not know.
14-00000 &, LACE IOT TED CE EEE OE ICNT “ENA COSFSS TEN RIALS Lona aj),. diss ssed t is question, ((sayinz)) that one cannot in any case take away ((pay for rank)) in the Arny. Because in the Arny the pay rates for officers ((are)) not larze, having in mind company commanders, ete. Speaking to the point, when you were working in... in the Baltic Fleet or where you were -~- in the GRU, you say <= how nuch were you paid (shkol'io Vam platili). What was the basic pay (otlad). I began as an interpreter-translator (perevodchix), my position (dolzhnost') was -= interpreter-translator of Intelligence (ra:vedi) of the Seventh Naval Fleet. Where ((was)) this Seventh Fleet. It was in the Pacific Ocean, two fleets: the Fifth and the Seventh. At that time, there were two fleets. Interpreter~translator of the Seventh.... interpreter-translator of Intelligence of the Seventh Naval Fleet, And how much were you paid- At that tine (Togda) ((After a long pause, B speaks, with uncertainty)) The basic pay for the position (Dolzhnostnoy oklad) was, as an interpreter~ translator, it seems, 1,200 ((rubles)), plus -- I began ((as)) a junior lieutenant ~~ 400; now, all of this has been doubled. 1,200 and 400, this is 1,600, and.... Double. oer RET —_— cee as meena pies es = a ee 3 ‘: i 1h 0 RP PRREERNEREREORED  t s 4
B. And, ((wait)) one minute... they also added (naberali) here ((pay. for)) secrecy}... Then... ‘aéditional, for us... well... officers reccived.,. well, as you know, there is a finance certificate (denerhnyy attestat), a clothing atid equipment supply (veshchevoy) certificate, a rations supply (prodovol 'stvennyy) certificate, so we received rations (payex), gave a certificate, ((even)) those who did not have their fasily ( (with them)) ate ((on this certificate)}, but then no one had (vse ne imeli) ((these certificates)), ((excepting)) only a fey persons ((who)) had their fanily ((with them)}, ({to whom)) rations supply certificates were given; we ate in the mess (stolovaya) of the submarine base in Postovaya Harbor (v bukhte Postovoy), and for us still (i nam yeshche).... This is considered a remote area (otdalennoye mesto), plus ((there are)) hardship conditions (tyazhelyye usloviya), additional rations; we did not take the additional rations, but received more money. In general, a large sum was accumulated (nabegala). Because this ((was)) double ((pay)). Well, this was in the Far East, but how much did you receive in the Baltic. I worked in the Baltic ((Fleet, area)) a few (neskol'ko) months, here I already, when I arrived in the Baltic in.1952, to me there, there they made me ((a)) senior interpreter-translator of the MAS URP, of Intelligence of the Fourth Naval Fleet in the Baltic; again, there were two fleets: the Second and the Fourth. The fourth Fleet,the base of the Fourth Fleet -— Bailtiysk..... _Here was... senior ((B thinks hard, speaks with uncertainty)) something... 1,500... I do not remember. — Then, of course, less money, because here ((there is)) no double (nikakikh dvoynykh) ((Cpay)), nothing... here, plus, ((for)) the rank of lieutenant -- 500, plus, then, ((for)) secrecy; yes, ((and)) for language, of course, both in the Far East and here, 10%, there and ees err fe dated #8 - 1 a tes onnpeteang sane nN 6 cee a emerane) eonmmane queen meet te + jane at baci ae aie oe 1p 4 4 ?
14-90000 And ((that is)) all. There was no double ((nay)). But here, a few (neskxol'ko) months, until the end of 13932. A. Well, anyway, for you... it was a great blow ((to lose the pay)) by ranks, there was much talk about this, and so forth, and I would try or wish that you would recall, anyway, when they cut off ((the Pt te est BE ED oe as pay)) for ranks. B. I do not remember; I do not renenber , For a year they did not pay, or ny work, inthe beginning of ny work in the siVD, they did rot pay for ranks for a year. “A. Well, in the beginning of your work, as you said.. B. ((Interrupts)) Well, the beginning of my work, this ((was in)) 1953—54, this ((was the)) beginning. . In ny imagination, that they cut this off, to my thinking... ((B speaks with uncertainty)) at the end of 1953. : ‘ But I do not remember exactly. They did not pay for ranks and... A. This ((is)) a very important moment, and imagination, this is one thing, but the facts, another thing. It does not matter how you turn and twist, if you Say that in March they appointed you as a case officer and paid 1, 700 ((rubles)) and, Yr { for rank, 500, when in fact they were not paying ((for rank then)). How can you make things connect up CC"join ends’ =~ svesti kontsy s | kontsami)) here. B. But there is nothing difficult here ((about this)). They did not pay me ((for rank)) for a year; I do not remember the period exactly. Whether it was the end of 1953 or the beginning of 1953, from the beginning of my work, for a year I did not receive ((pay)) for rank — we
OF 302i ect etanaatties eeamRt sti -emenqestneiabne Metin wm my Syste Me Sacre atone £05 &@ year 4 Gia BOL receive pay. a work. Well, then, you already were working; by whose order and how was it established (ustanovleno) to pay for ranks ayain: when was this. Tney did not pay anyone (vsem) ((for rank)) for exactly a year; ((that is)) all. Alright; you do not remember when they cut off the pay ((for rank)); perhaps you remember when they restored ((it)). It seems to me that they restored ((it)) at the end of 1954. It seems ((so)) to me, but again I cannot say exactly. In my imagination, they returned ((it)) at the end of 1954. What j—-. and they paid the backepay (zaplatill za vse staroye): No, no, no, no; not a kopeck; nothing. They simply began again. Well, here again, I wish to repeat «-- do you consider it possible to believe a persen who worked ((there)) for 11 vears, ete., ((and)) who does not remember exactly and does not know or does not want to tel? such a fact, very important in the life of all officers, ({as)) when they took away and when they restored ((the pay for rank)); how must I, what conclusion must I draw (dolzhen vyvod delat’) fron this: I cannot tell you what conclusion you must draw. ' You are drawing the conclusion.... You are sitting in my place and talking with such a person as yourself, who will tell you this ((just)) so; what kind of conclusion would you draw. ‘ 8. = ‘
14-00000 AR 9 26 eA Hs CHOATE canon teins mare cin tn os ot -are discussing: "Aha't This is how it was (Aga, vot eto vot).” _& FWUULG urag RA SHS VMs LUD 4s ff 0 GS WET WAI GIA A Ded TR y WEL Rg ~~ alright is this really so inportant: But what do we get. (cnto poliichi tsya) if we go to “1952-33 \=_ the devil with it", then we come to 1954-55 -= “the devil with it"; then at what ((point)) will we arrive (x chemu my priyden): ((Pauses, sighs)) I do not know. I am telling what (kak) I remember. It seems that each and any living man ((must draw the same conclusion)) if you remember such a thing as that FURTSEVA objected and they opposed her, and so forth ~- you know, as they say in English, ((in English)) background... Well, because I... and father was alive, I heard these rumors which ((were heard)) by father, as roughly happens in life (kak idet ghizn' priblizitel'no); what ((was)) there, what kind of question was discussed there, or something was decided there, or some such thing was started there. But what (kak) do you think ~- you have said much about various events in the period of these two-three years, what happened in the Presidium or what you heard from father, and so forth; have you said many such things, in your opinion (po vashenu mneniyu) , or not. Where did I say ((them)). To whom: Here (Zdes" ), here. To all (Vsem litsam) who have worked with you. Of course, I have said that which I heard, which I remember, which I remember. That which I remember. Let us suppose, some kind of question has arisen about something we VObEE alah ALM» a
14-00000 he bd | & Wd Boh ee EHR eH wes EP o Let uS return once more to the question == perhaps it upsets you a little, but I think ((there is)) nothing to be upset about here; if you know, say ((so)); if you do not know, say that you co not know. . Well, let us move (davaite poidem) to Building 12 on Dzerzhinskiy Strect. So. Where, according to your words and as far as know, this is part of the whole Committee for State Security; there ((is)) a number (ryad) of directorates (upravieniye) and depts (otdel), ete. We will begin from the first entrance (pod"yexd) and go through all ((of them)) in order. We will begin from the Central Entrance (Tsentral'nyy Vkhod) to the Club. So, You know, of course, where it is located.... Yes, yes, on Dzerzhinskiy (ma Dzerzhinskoy).... On Dzerzhinskiy. What ((is)) there, what kind of sign hangs there. Tnere is no sign of any kind. Absolutely none. -What kind of sign hung there, if none hangs there today (yesli ne visit segodnya): I do not remember ((that)) any kind of sign (Chung there)) in all my years ((there)), there ((is)) none. 3 cs 4 s
Bre tee ee ((can)) I show you —= Building 2, here, so; this is how they are. ¥ (vot kak oni). A. Well, I understand; I see how Building 12 is situated (raspoloznen). ; 4 B. Here, here ((is)) the entrance (vkhod), so, here, fron Dverzhinskiy, Ee é from Dzerzhinskiy Street, ((there is)) no sign of any kind here, absolutely nothing. : % But here, here ((is)) the Gastronom, nere ((is)) the sign, ‘Gastronona”, in this building; his ((is)) Building 12, first floor. A, Let us imavine that you, you understand... wien did they open the Gastronom there. B. The nane (nazvaniye): Gastronon 40th ((i.e., Gastronom No. 40))... when did they open...: ((When)) I began work, the Gastronom already was ((there)). A. Well, when, approximately. B. In 1953, there already was a Gastronom ((there)). A. (Cin English)) Well. You see, of course, we can go on like this endlessly, etc: neither in 1933 nor in 1954 was a Gastronom there. L on And there was no reform (I ne bylo reform). 3. There was no what (Ne bylo, chto). t a ” A. There was none before 1953. cee . t-. B. Well, when ((did they open the Gastronom)): A. It was not in 1953 or 1954. This is what I want to know -- were you there before the opening: 9 Mae TRE
14-00000 OCR iu Loe Eh dS RED GEARD Wd O88 whesd - . . oer aes * eeditewree B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know when it opened? - oo, . oad A. Well, if you were there in 19534254, as you say, and you tell me that oo the Gastronon was there, I can. in no way buy this, well, I cannot in “of 3 7 4 : any way, because.... i (CG; B interrupts)) B. ...8ell, alright. In my imagination, the Gastronon ((was there)) from 1953 as far as I remember. ((Laughs nervously, unhappily)) A, I again want to say, simply in comradely fashion, that imagination, this is one thing, but the fact -~ completely another thing. B. You may know ((some)) facts, but I may not know ((these same)) facts. I may know facts, but you may not know a number (ryad) of facts. mem FE NE em A. A person who worked ((there)) 11 years must, and probably does, know when they opened the Gastronom there and must also know what was there before the Gastronon. B. ((After two minutes' silence:)) I do not know. ‘ ae cee agpacins nee memen annge + i ae i A. Here again ((is)} a question. It is, of course, difficult for me, and for 211 of my colleagues who were here before this, to believe that-you were there, from 1953 a _ 18 until ((your)) last day, in the Second Chief Directorate of the KGB. Because you even do not know the simplest thing: the building next to Building 2 (sleduyushcheye zdaniye dlya Doma 2), ((and)) what was . in it there: _ ao Even such a big thing as the Gastronom -~ you do not know when they we BLS
se saneealilannnnenaraamnnellltananapeeuapwaneure tani anpaLraaaaan B. RP Bris owe dh wg I even do not ask ((which)) wonth, but simply the year, the e year, I do not xnow. I was not interested, I do not know, such a question did not cone up (ne stavil takogo voprosa). In my imagination, it was ((there)). Therefore, of course, however you may try to put your case more or less in orcer, etc., it is hard, it is in no way possible to sew it up (ni kak ne vozmozhno podshit’). But (Cit is)) very sad. ((it is)) very sad that this is so. And one cannot believe that you, for exanple, you insist that “{¥ was ((there))", “I know ((this))." ((Even)) if it was not ((so)) with someone else (s kem), it was ((so)) with ne. It turns out so: 2 thousand soldiers are out of step, and (Conly)) one is in step. I do not insist (utverzhdayu) ((that)) this ((is so)). % know that you do not insist.... _ ((%G; A and B speak at the same time)) _I answer you what was ((or, “that it was" - chto bylo)) there. God knows! If I began to visit (poseshchat')..Building 12, then I visited... Building 12, then from the very beginning of ny life (s samogo nachala moyey zhizni), 1953, from the very beginning, 1953, I went ‘to Personnel (kadry) these 2-3 times, then I began to work. Where only could I go in Building 12. To the Club and... well, to meetings (sobraniye) in the Club. ' 4 t mis eronmaenae inne eteannor as oe aes aE Pee ey er oo eee etapa encore “ate = peat cays either ibe aad Renee ‘ 7
tle ce eEBO tient ee ee al seem ere mee® “Then, yes. Run in to tne Second Special Departneat (Spetsotdel), at the fourth entrance (pod"yexud). This ((is)) the fourth cntrance, and PINO (Finansovyy Otdel ~ Finance Departnent)) ~- the (({is)) the sixth entrance. , These ((are)) all of the entrances which I visited for approximately a year, until 1956, until 195.45 yes, 1958. Let us return again to the question: Here ((is)) the door to the Club of the AGB. What (€(is)) written there or was written...- Nothing. Well, nothing ((is)) written on these doors. There are a few (neskol'ko) doors, you reaenber , The entrance (Vkhod), well, not as the usual entrance (pod"yezd) in Building 12 or in Building 2, this ((is)) not the usual entrance (pod"yezd) to the Club. This ((is)), a few glass doors, a few. You go in one (Vkhodite Vy v odnu). You see (Smotrite),, Here, let us suppose, ((is)) one glass door, a second glass ((door)), a third. You enter at this ((one)) and, here you go through at this door, so, you go through the next entrance (vkhnod) and there already you show... your pass (propusk) and you pass through into the Club (v pomeshcheniye Kluba). (Cin English)) Alright. There ((is)) no sign (madpis’) of any kind. Absolutely nothing. (Cit is)) another thing that when you go in this one glass door here, there may be signs inside, in this i be an bees ie wind St tacbdest wee ane} a 4
Pe Nh eentOe ASME tte enemoanan talent actin cit datane lan 7 3 “Tet us say, | Clthere may be sigus)) about camps (lager are a number of camps to wich the enployees send their children, or there may be, let us say, ((a sign concerning)) a trip for mushroons, and something else there (yeshehe tan), the devil knows waere Cruda). But, you do not remember, fron the moment ((of the beginning)) of your work there, how long the sign (vyveska) -- “Club of Enployees of the Ministry for State Security USSR (Xlub Sotrudnikov Ministerstva Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti sssn)" -- hung ((there)). And... I did not see this sign, I did not see (Cit)). Too bad (Ochen' zhal'), too bad. Let us return again to one question: As you said, and this also is known to all, in March, after STALIN's death, the MVD and the MGB combined (ob"yedinili vmeste), and BERIYA became the Minister of Internal Affairs; KOBULOV was his First Deputy. What club did the MVD employees use after they joined (kogda oni soyedinilis' s) the NGB’ The thing is that on Dzerzhinskiy Street, if you go just a little further along there, ((there is)) the Club of the KGB -— that which is there now =~ on the right side, but ((if)) you go further along Dzerzhinskiy Street, on the left side, on the left side, where at one time there ws a store, the so-called “Arrow (Strela)" or something in that vein, closed, there was the club of the MVD. . What happened to it: It also remained in the system es a club after 1953~354, because I remember that KLYUCHAREV, an employee of the First Department (Otdel), died in 1953 and there was a question (vopros stoyal) of whether to show the coffin with his body in this Club of the KGB -- are om levee ter eapemnnents pmpsnte SS cent oe ee = see remtaengt ecnnnne te i ‘ ‘= ad 3 *
14-00000 he presen Because it was necessary to find a place (pomeshctieniye), they wanted to use cither this or this building. es a+} Bot edpd abe And I wanted to say ((that))} they used both clubs. A. What is there in this building at present. Pan davat alee EEA ad On the day you were there for the last time in Moscow, or the last 2—3 years. i B. There is no club as such there now. It is further along the street, where the former “A4rrow" ((store was)); there is no club as such, but there is sone kind of construction organization (stroitel'noye khozyaystvo) from the "n0ZU (( House~ keeping’ Directorate == Xhozyaystvennoye Upravleniye)) of the iGB, a construction, well... section (otdeleniye) or cepartnent (otdel) or something, the devil knows, but something is there {no chto-to tam sidyat). That is (({to say, then)), the buildiug as such continues to belong i to the KGB, not the MVD. A. Let us return, further, to our mutual friend, ROZHENKO. Earlier, you said that you conpleted (zapolnyali) a questionnaire (anketa) and an autobiography for his section (otceleniye), for i him and for his employee. What other steps (Chto yeshche... predprinimalo) did the MVD or the | NGB =~ call it whatever you wish -- take in order to accept you. creates tcane qe omnmanmnremnee ey B. I absolutely do not know what they did (prinimali); I absolutely do not know, because there were only these 2-3 conversations with me and I 100% cannot tell you. Y cannot tell you; I filled out the questionnaire (anketa) for ROZHENKO and for his man, for his case officer who talked with me, bite, or ((it happened that)) when I had just started work, SAXHAROV, the Personnel man (kadrovik) of the Second Chief (Kirectorate), gave. ° =: ‘me two questionnaires, two autobiographies to fi11 out. I eannot say exactly... ates | a eee nee ater allied! dB ce ee
14-00000 en But do you renenber the name of the Cnicf of the Personnel Section (Otdeleniye Kadrov) of the Second Chief Directorate at that tine or later. B. There was none (Ne bylo), there vas nonce. There was one Personnel man in the Second Chief Directorate. | t i | f ! ((Taere was)) not a Personnel group (sruppa), there was nothing. One Personnel man ~- SAMHAROV, Nikolay Grigor'yevich, A. Are you sure of this. B. Ho, ho; not just certain «- we were on the same floor (my sideli na odnom etazhe). And his office was here, literally ((just)) a few steps from the First Department (Otdel). A. But who wis responsible for (zanimalsya) personnel of the Surveillance Department (Otdel Naruzhnogo Nablyudeniya) of the Second Chief Directorate at that tine. B. UODK: UODK... Central Personnel (Tsentral'ayye Xadry). ((Wait)) one minute, UODK, they also had, like the Second Chief ((irectorate)} had its own Personnel man in the system. Not in Personnel, but, like the Second Chief ((Directorate)), they ~~ had — I think -- their ((own Personnel)) Department (Otdel). sa A RENO a te A. But what -—- you do not know more exactly: : You worked so many years there, you must probably know. Tat is how it is, to speak in a conradely way (Vot tak, po-tovarishch- 8 @ = > eski). B. But I am answering you. In a comradely way. pub oe Me 212 u nadine a raceme te mark on tie ate - teens ' £ am. answering you, as I remember ((it)), as I know C(it)). AE Pyaar es >
14-00000 weidintne you do sot know who headed (zavedoval) Personnel and who headed |. (vedal) Surveillance. “8 4 B. One winute. ae How ((was)) it, who headed ((them)). oo i Surveillance, in my time, as soop as I had cegun to-work, the UODK, ' the Directorate for the Protcction of the Diplomatic Corps (Upravicniye khrany Diplomaticheskojro kKorpusa), surveillance of foreigners (slezhka 2a inostrantsani) was under (byla podchinena) the Second 4 Chief Directorate, under (vo slave s) BOVKO ((or, DOYKOV.)), Nikolay Vasil'yevich, who also was (yavlyalsya) Chicf of the UODK and he was a Deputy Chief of the Second Chief Directorate. Dut neither he nor someone from his, so to say, staff (shtab) was (ne sidel) in Building 2 (v zdannii Dona 2). A. Do you know something about their safe apartments (konspirativnaya kvartira), where the Surveillance employees lived, where they went to work in the morning, from which they moved about, etc., etc., in tha tereonter an | oars + period, the period of the beginning of your work in the Second Chief Directorate ~~ ((I ask)) because there were so many of them i in Moscow (ikh v Moskve do chertovoy materi). B. Pes-s ((An explosive sigh, through nearly closed lips)) A. Well, name for me a few safe apartments where they donot take agents, but it is called a safe apartment where employees come in the nelle te cnet eet dome tee morning, from which they move about at work, ((and to which)) they then come back after work. B. YT have given the whole plan (skhema vsya) for (po) the First Depertment (Otdel). I am interested... I have seen this whole plan; 1 Se PARED ly EHO EN 90M WEBS sae meted Fee ((In English)) It's alright; we still will come back te this plan if it is (budet) necessary . + trees «tet EEE RARE ecm, erst atte CRE thy A AD sn He IO PORE Ere @ PSAs Bperten
cen et EE worked so long, and so forth.... You must know nany of then. ‘ane a few for me. ((Long pause)) I cannot tell you the main (osnovnaya) safe apartment, the surveillance base (baza slezhki) of the First Department (Otdel), of the foraer UCD, in 1953-54 I ((fe laughs)) do not remember, I was not even here. In 1953: In 1935, I was not even with then (vu nikh) at these bases. bo you imagine that a person who has worked as a case officer and higher in the Second Chief Directorate, connected with operational matters, cither finishes off ((maintains, “sews up" ~ podshivayet)) files (papki) or something, but a person sits near hin, who mects agents, conducts surveillance, requires it, writes assignments, etc.... So. .e. And in the course of three years you did not once hear and see and you do not know anything about these safe apartments: Well, why do you put the question thus. Because you have answered thus. Otherwise, I cannot put ((the question so)). You have said that in this time you were not working there and you do not know. In another instance, this morning or at the beginning of our con- versation, you tried to convince me that (chto U.cedece "— heard one thing there, there a thing,” but in the end I cannot... confirm how this happened. I am saying that this thing also could have been heard; true: a SECRET “ wad ES eee Pela rete. F ORE Cre ners seen + saree
14-00000 . ee aint Mn Ot Seles . in this Surveillance Department or in the Directorate for Affairs (Po Delam) of the Diplomatic Corps, etc., I am not putting a question to you of all the details of this, I simply am asking where were f the sare apartnents of the Second Chief Directorate, where all of their surveillants were (vsya ixh naruzhka sidela). B. UOD:, all of the UODKX was (sicelo), all the chiefs of departments and the department (otdel) were in the area (v rayonc) of cither Second or Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)), in 1953-34, when BoyKo headed, well, surveillance (sleznka) of forcigners. Yell, I never went there. Hov does the work with this surveillance usually shape up. Let us suppose, (1G) worker (rabotnik), I am running (vot ya vedu), I have a few cases, I write out an assignsent for surveillance (slezhka); the chief of the section (otdeleniye) signs, the chief of the department (otdel) signs, with regard to foreigners. And it goes by its ow route (svoim kanalon).... A. We will return to this. I understand how, by what route it goes, etc. I have, as they say, the most routine, the most trifling, question, | which an employee who worked there must know. . | Kane for me a few of the safe apartments where employees of ((the department of)) Surveillance of the Second Chief Directorate had their headquarters apartments (shtab~kvartira). te “ota fo which they go in the morning and fron which they move about at Po work and ({to which)) they return. Do they not go to Building 2: B. No. | They. 7 . , . Each division (otdel) has its ((own)) base, its ((own)) base. I do not know the base 1953, 1954, 1955, where the base of the First Department (Otdel) was. . ae: nr ee sors oe at st onl eT The nain (osnovnaya) base from which they moved about.
14-00000 ey ee ee ee ee 2o7 I was in these at that time. A. It is difficult, of course, to believe, especially for ne, that al | person wac has worked there, cte., does not iknow such a sinple thing. B. How ((is)) this, he doesmt remember such a thing. Simple. A. Well, name these safe apartnents. Even one, two. B. Well, Vosstaniye Square Cploshchad' Yosstaniya), Vosstaniye Square I told of (daval) ((earlier)); now it has been made secret (zakonspirirovana) ({B apparently said this in error and then . corrected himself:))... put aside (zakonservirovana), ((the safe apartment)) on Vosstaniye Square. A. Good; Vosstaniye Square, then (yeshche). B. Then (Zaten); but ths, not, this... when they move about to their, so to speak, places; then, in the area of Kropotkinskaya, near the bridge, please, well, ((there are)) the surveillance points Ne ph enon ee (nablyudatel'nyy punkt): opposite the Embassy and on the sides (po bokam), in the rear (pozadi). A. Well, these surveillance points, this is knowm to everyone.... { H 1 ! t. i eo But who was the Chief of Surveillance, at that tine or another, of the Second Chief Directorate; who headed (vedal) the surveillance (maruzhka) of foreigners. B, The Chief was BOYKOV, Nikolay Vasil‘yevich, Haj Gen BOYKOV. 4 A. Where did he come from? an - . B. I do not know where he came fron. ne cannes rene RSME oe ccc ee
14-00000 A. A. B. “Chief of the Secon tno else anong their employecs do you i:now. Now, let us say, I know. Not the Seventh ((Directorate)), as 26%; who, for example, was ROYKO's deputy or the senior officers and so forth. Lam not asking ((about)) the lower-level (malen kiy) (Cofficers)); we will return to this later. There was his SINEL‘SiICiIIZOY there, at that time.... ((Lor-: pause)) Where ((was)) this, in the Vosstaniye Square area. What kind of more or less outstanding, striking (xotoroy vy glaz brositsya) building (ob"yekt) is there. In order to identify the place (Chtoby nozhno bylo opoznat’). (2G)... “Taxi (taksi)" stand in this place. You see: two streets run into (vykhodit na) Vosstaniye Square, Vorovskiy Street (vykhodit ulitsa Vorovskogo) and Gertsen Street; they end in Vosstaniye Square. Here, here... ((is)) Vosstaniye Square; here is (vysxhodit) Gertsen ((Street)), here is Vorovskiy. Well, here, across Vosstaniye Square -—- this ((is)) a tall building, so, here «= between Gertsen and Vorovskiy; here is a small, such 4, you know, a little pbuilding (domishko), and here in this little building ((is)) a taxi stand; so, here, on the first floor, there was a safe apartment, it is now, but it has been put aside (zakonservirovana)... put aside, they do not work in it. How far was this from BERIYA's building (don): BERIYA's building (dom), further, along Sadovaya, further, on the.. right, further, the first cross-street (pereulok). aE er eee a ee cee, ree ; i H i ‘ i
Rerun 2 teeth aR at st cant os eta ter B te TRIN HN he razbrasyvat sya) on var ous sites (ob "9 Of course, it is very hard for me to believe that you worked there for such a long time and could not even notice tiat 2 sign hung at the Club. No,; no, no. Perhaps there was a sign before my time, but XI do not remember a sin; no. Or, for example, the fact: everyone knows that ((there is)) a Gastronom there now, but there was no Gastronoa ((there))} either in 1953 or 1954. Well, maybe not in 1954, perhaps the Gastronon vas made in 1355. ((Possibly, XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) ..-And you cannot say. How many times were you personally in this Gastronon. Again, it is hard to say how many times, I was ((there)).... Y cannot tell you. ...Did you drop in either every day or every other day? pret ey Well, no, no.... Once a month, or once a year, % think this is not hard ((to answer)).... a teeter nema = Perhaps... once (1G). ;..Because if you were working there, you are working, ete., well, did you not have to buy all the groceries (produkt) there, and so. ‘forth: . ie
y4-00R00" ° Pegg a. For soue reason or other.... What was the talk im the KGB. Is it a good neighborhood. ({Is it good)) That a Gastronom is located there. Can everyone drop in at the Gastronon- Of course, the neighborhood ((is)) not very .zood ((i.e., it is not good that the Gastronon is there)). Because, for example, 2 person drops in; he can stand there, inside the big windows, carry on a surveillance, ((seeinz)) who... tho enters, wno leaves. Waat did the employces -- for example, your Counterintellisence friends -«- say of such a neighborhood. ((¥as)) it good for the kG2, bad for the KGS. Bad, of course, for the KGB. Did anyone say this. At a conference, at a neeting. Or somevhere ((else)). Taat “we do not need such a neighborhood I do not remember that, I would have heard some such thing at a Le. conference and somewhere ((else)) there.... Well, since.... - (Cinterrupts, speaking loudly)) Well, there was talk that this _(Cis)) not much of a place (nevazhnoye... nesto) for the Gastronon. Probably there was talk: someone decided to open the Gastronom there. Well, this was decided in the Mossovet (Qloscow Soviet = Moskovskiy
1400000 &: . oe ve tan cannes n Hise anacomabaste | thie Anna NEAIDC ntts O + EEE SOE SAT You were working there; perhaps you heard sonethineg, on the basis’. of which.... : so 3 t a : I do not Know. I do not xnow how it was decided. : 3 But I an telling you that ((it was)) the opinion of the operational * i enployees that this, of course, ((is)) not much of a neighborhood. : Very much so. It even could happen that, while all Soviet citizens are going there, foreigners also can drop in. Of course. And the tourists and so forth, well, perhaps ((persons)) from the American Embassy will not ((i.e., will they not)) begin to go there every cay.... ce nem sen pea re Tney will notice ((then)). i They will notice them, yes. . 7 Eut, of the others=--perhaps a person simply is goings ({along)) and sees (i vot uvidel) the Gastronon, runs in (zaskochil) for a ninute, etc. Of course, it is hard -- again, I repeat my earlier words! as you wish, whether you like it or not, it is of course hard to believe i j q t i i that you would work ((there)) so much time and would not know when they opened the Gastronon. I do not remember when they opened ((it)). Or, for example, you cannot say more or less exactly how often you dropped in there or ((if)) you never were there. _ ee ape munanemin Ate rocerbe te we ones ek Tser erbeee Ae a He Ee
often. It is difficult to say.... t aa | | : C(%G; A&A and B talk at the same tine)) A. ... You never dropped in there (... Nikxogda tuda ne zakhodili). a B. Yell, no, without doubt (bezuslovno) I dropped in, I thing (po- moyenu), sometimes I even dropped in after work to do sone shopping. ‘ A, ((Tris is)) for me also not understandable. You understand, of course, that when ARBAKUMOV was ((there)), IGNAT'YEV was ((there)), and so forth, KODULOV of course was not in -power (ne u viasti byl) in the HGP or the MVD, he was working in GUSINZ. B. (:Yes, but: ) : A. I am saying ((that)} when.... : ; ; B. (:KOBULOV’) was working with ABAKUNOV, he was working, KOBULOV | 4 4 A. When: B. Well... after the war... in these years. _ a A. If he was an acquaintance (znakomyy) of your family, do you know a a approximately when he went to work in GUSINZ: B. No, no; I do not know exactly when he went to work in GUSIHZ. A. And ((on)) what basis they took him and transferred him there, to GUSIMZ- . z Se rc TL er B. ((It is)) my opinion, my opinion -- I emphasize ((this)) again om PR Ss | Se en a eecre
14-00000 A. B. which was organized immediately after the war. in connection with “Bismuth”, so-called, the uranium mines (uranoviye razrabotii), it ({(vas)) necessary to put (otnesti) them also under GUSIMZ, but.... Tnis ((is)) understandabic. I want to say, we will not co inte these details, ((about)) “Bismuth”, GUSIUZ, etc.; perhaps we will return to them later; approximately when, do you think, KMONSULOY bean working there. I co not know, I do not tnor. Who was he there, Chief or Deputy. Deputy Chief of GUSINZ, But who was the Chief; do you not know. .There were a few of them; there was SERGEYSV at one tine, who worsed as Deputy, was Chief, there was someone else there, a few times.... It is a little hard for me to believe that, for example, as far as ‘I know, KOSULOY was working in GUSINZ, he began approximately in 1947 or perhaps from the beginning of 1943; he did not have, then, any relation to the Ministry for State Security where ABAXUMOV was Minister, and... that KOBULOY would phone the HGB and recommend you for work. He must have, probably, ((connections with)) some big man who (2G).... You are forgetting about another ((thing)). Excuse me, ((but)) you are forgetting another thing there -— that GUSINZ ((was)}) a cover (krysha) for KOBULOV. Because, in such an enterprise as "Bismuth", the people working there were only from the MGB. SEGRET cae sapere oe me eee es meen ener ania ranean spetenniien te do ' ' i i ’
14-00000 — eee conn en ub rOMltD capensis planer Os 504 EAE APR TRIS EEE Ye aailtate «io This ((is)) known and.... Unly people from the MGS were working ((there)). ... That GUSINZ was used as a cover also is known. I do not want to get into an argunent (v polemiku vdavat'’sya). But we will say, not wholly correctly, that GUSIMZ was only a cover for KOBULOV. lie was a (byl kak) Lieutenant general in Germany, KOBULOV, What do you know about relations (vzaimootnosheniye) between KOBULOY and ABAKUMOV: I do not know, I do not Know. So we ((will)) not have a falling out (Chtoby nam ne ssorit'sya), do you not remember whom KOBULOV rang up in the NGB. No; absolutely ((mot)), absolutely. There even was no talk of this, to whom he would phone (pozvonit), with whom he would talk. Absolutely not even a word was said. What do you think ~~ were you telling the truth (pravil'no govorili).,. ({about)) when you went in at the fourth entrance (pod"yezd), ((about)) when you went to see KOBULOV, that they told you what room and so forth and you went there alone: Absolutely the truth. No one told me which roon. I received a pass (propusk) downstairs (vnizu) where they check. the pass. An officer gave me the pass when I arrived and ((I)) said: "Please, look; there must be a pass in my name here, at this entrance”. They looked, ((said)) "Yes ((there is a pass)); you go”... — be 26 900d bane Hag ne wide’ bale
74-90000 ARERR PE ARAN AR TRA Ee Ot tke eh ERO RO OP TD wT HH he kg ee go OU RY eeeeadeniie seem A. Someone showed you where to go. B. ¥ell, I asked: “Where ((is)) this three... three hundred... ". gone such room ((was indicated)) there. . , i Taey told me, "Now here at.... You go to the right. } Nanck Heb Ade tebe + amen a+": There-are-a few-steps; go in-at the fourth ((entrance)), to the right, but then you go over and go up one of the stairways to the third floor, and you will find this room on the thire floor". A. And no one accompanied you. B. Absolutely no one. A&A. Ko one met you. B. Ko, no, no, A. Alright; let us accept that it was so. In fact, it could not have been ((so)). After you completed the questionnaires (anketa), you submitted them to the Personnel Department (Otdel); then the NGB phoned again. | Let us suppose ((that)) they had received your file (delo) from the Navy, and so forth. Did they send you to the Medical Commission (éeditsinskaya Kommissiya): B. I did not go to any Medical Commission when beginning ((work at the HGB)). ‘A. How ((do you)) explain’ thts; that you didnot goo I do not know how. & Tney did not send me to any Medical Conmisstion. Kothing. In general, my acceptance (priyem) for work was, so to speak, not
14-00000 Stee oS om am aoe wey were gy # © ((1t was)) an unusual (Ke obychnyy) acceptance (priyen). Neither this case officermr ROZIENKO, waom I saw only once, nentioned , ere one word, though, that they were taking se (prinizayut), so to speak, on influence (po blatu) cr on ((the strength of)) a phone call fros higher up (po bol'shonu zvonku). No one asked how I know XOBULOY, from where I know (Cain)), and no one said a vord about ZOZULOV nad sent me. Absolutely. But the acceptance (priyem) itself was unusual (ne obychen). I think ((that)) when ROZHENKO or the other employee, when he talked with you, he probably asked about the state of your health. But... I... said... normal health.... 1 had served... in... in... the Navy. You understand, of course, a person may be fit (goden), for example, to be a pilot, but sometimes may not be fit to be an operations enployee. Well... I went through ((a medical examination)) when I began... uh, uh... in the Navy. I am not speaking of this, because work in the Navy = even in ((Navy)) intelligence == ((is)) one ((thing)), and work in the State Security.. organs ((is)) another. When they take a person, no matter from where —— whether he comes from the Army or is a civilian, anyone, always the routine is fixed (poryadok ustanovlen), if one may so express it, the law (zakon) (Cis that)) the person must go through the Medical Commission, not because they want to throw him out or to find something ((wrong)), ((but because)) it is necessary for the future, when the person completed his. service (otsluzhit svoy srok), or ((they give)) him a pension or something; or, for example, they accept (prinyali) you as é ' § H oad 2 ane natinaddann ata aa
714-00000 . - oem eg go ee ee ee me . crete ate et 8 i a pel tS IMEI ON oT 20 OE Le Se tpapesemetinn . eonpeney entered the ((State Security)) = | organs as a healthy person ((and)) fell ill there. For me this is not unaerstandable: why, there must be some kind of.... oe re B. ((interrupts)) I think ({ that it was)) only because, coming from, ((that it was only)) that, so to speak, on such a level == KOBULOY gave someone a prone call, and ((said)) something, of something -- and on such a level, therefore, it happened quite casily. And there were no special, so to speak, conversations vith me. There were no commissions, negotiations -- nothing special. A. But, anyway, they must have asked about the state of your health. B. Well, probably they asked. But I did not go through the Commission. A. You know, if you worked there long. The routine exists, that a person must go through the Commission and when they accept him for work, the Commission's decision is attached. if they accept you, for example, for the Second Chief Directorate, for operational work.... B. But, you see, in fact... ((%G; A and B speak at the same time)) ... Taking into attention these phone calls, they simply proceeded, it seems to me -- again, it seems to me, it is my impression -=— they proceeded from that position that, “Alright; here is this veteran (veteran) ((B's surname)); he is on regular service in the Navy. Has he gone through the Commission. He has. Is he healthy: Be is healthy.” And they saw the conclusions of the Commission in my personnel file 48, + none ene pe ATRNTORER eae Out Aemein mem w -ekenAtIO ne Ob: atest 0 By SRI Mo
A, Well, of course, in the Personnel file.... fine ane pare, B. There is the Cosnission’s report (raport).... A. ... Of course, there was the decision of sone commission, and 60 forth, but you are explaining one ((way)), and as far as it is known to me personally, ((it is}) coupletely another. ((it is})) not inpertant whence @ person has come, whether he was a pilot or an engineer, whether he is a civilian or a military man or whatever, when entering on duty in the ((State Security)) organs, he must go through the Medical Conumission. | is depeads upon the doctors: will they look at hin through a is} agnifying glass or he Sinply will go and.... B. I understand. But I absolutely did not go through any commission. They did not send me when ((I was)) entering.... Later, I went through the Commission as all the employees do; that is, there were a few times during the entire term of ny service (za vsyu moyu rabotu), but ((this was)), so to speak, a nedical re~ examination. i All of the employees went through the Commission. i A. But where did you go through this Commission: cme tenteleme Sormrsenie thee eee et B. On Kisel'nyy Street (pereulok)... it was.... I gave blood, ((specimens for)) analyses.... exegercgetr orae= ++ But on Varsonoftyevskiy ((Street - pereulok)), I went. through the doctors.... i In the Polyclinic on Varsonof'yevskiy. — pe thigt eNR NMR tT On what basis were you sent to the Commission: HAG HAA AE ee Bale OB 07 we oh 8 ae me Cy Aaah ai AnD ee re tm Are aEaeATEMEN GARONNE eee ye ® “B. Not ((just)) me... but... the whole chief directorate (glavka) went.... oe ki AB ME
pastes paneer cereae ee tant MP mitt A. Wnat -- did they determine fitness for work in the ((State Security)) organs or simply look at the state of health. They were looking at the state of health, so to speak; the nedical reeexamination of how((ever)) it is called. “If (Cit was)) a medical re-exanination, then way the ((specicens for)) analyses, when there are no.... (Cinterrupts)) No, but there, here you see, I vent throush two or three tines; here it was necessary to go throurh a series of doctors and to give ((spcecinens for)) analyses, Lleod, urine, etc. Approximately when was this. Fir first tine you went through this. I do not remenber. This was two or three times during my years of service. The last time, this was... to my thinking... the last time I went through the Medical Commission ((was in)) 1959 or 1960, sometime around then (chto-to vy etom rode). But you do not remember the name of the chief of the polyclinic or of the doctor who examined you. Well, a whole series of doctors examined me. Which doctor whom you know, to which one did you go most often’ But I never went to ((anyone)), I did not receive treatment there. Neither I nor ny wife recéived treatment there. Because we always received treatment in the Kremlevka. But when you went through the Medical Commission in the KGB in
| aaa raid Ow EmEe # eaten eM Reem ee York tae! ae meee ame pitt lee Bol'shoy Kisel'nyy Street (pereulox). tee Yes. “4 4 a You do not remember one doctor. ey By 3 No; I absolutely do mt remember one doctor. Vell, we went into the reception office (("registration office" + registratura)), you go into the -eception office, you say: “My name is" somand-so, in... for... the ‘iedical Commission. They give you a checklist (( runner" ~ begunolc)) according to which you go to the doctors. You begin. To whom you are to go is indicated there. You begin to go through. You go to... this... very... there in the reception office. I have been to one doctor; you go to the reception office -- ({you are told)) to whom rext to go; they look there, which turn, to which doctor. Al: You go to this one, you go to this one. In the course of a few days. Do you not remember when this was. When was the first time you went through ((the Nedical Commission) )* I do not remember. It was two or three times. eo Bf 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957: I am telling you: I went through the Medical Commission two or three times. Two or three times. I do not remember the years.... —= hit
men ghty, <* Petite tt caine etenennaape Cae eee SRS RR LTC ee HR ey 1 te ne enter a a STOLE LONER ED Ae AGATE tothe ety RT I AE CIATED LETH SAO nT "The problem was resolved ((Laughs)) that everyone would engage in physical culture, and it was necessary to divide the enployees. into groups. The first group, second croup, and third group. What does the "first", “second”, and “third' mean. You understand, the first group, for this, running is involved and like real sportsmen, young people.. You wanted to receive a certificate (spravka) that ({you were)) not. Fit.... { Yes, not ((just)) I wanted to receive ((such a certificate)); it is thus, so to say, you know, all the employees try to avoid the physical culture sonehow. It was necessary to come to the physical culture exercises two times a weer. Twice a week. An hour before work, and an hour on working time (chas za schet raboty). At the same time, how many times do the employees of the Second Chief Directorate engage in firing with their own weapons’ Once a year. Where do they hold these shoots: ((Pauses)) There is a firing range in Building 12, in the basement, and there were shoots also, I remember, in the beginning of 1954-55, in the basement ((of the building)) on Markhlevskiy Street. Such a small building, very shabby... it ((was)) in the beginning.... Lt a te ete arnt Be 8 Artes ee ee Be
74-90000 “ot Med OM, BUCR. FING PASSE LE udostovereniye lichnosti): ag the BAAS Bab cle kl, arse bo do Mobb, B. Oh, yes, this ((Happened)) soon. a { think, perhaps, well... ((after a)) week, a week and a half; I FE do not remember exactly. — 4 I was going through, ((on)).a pass, every day; they wrote out a. 4 But then I received ((it)) immediately. 2 A. What kind of identification (udostovereniye) was ((it)). Can you describe ({it)) for ae. 3 BR. The Winistry of Internal Affairs of the USSR. A red booklet (knizhech*a). Tne seal (gerb). The Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR. You open ((it)); on the left, a photo (kartochka); a staup (pechat') on the right... but (a)... the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the certificate, then, ((that so-and-so)) holds the position of case (sostoit v dolzhnosti oper)... yes... rank... Lieutenant ((B’s full : name)) holds the position of case officer. ; Neither the department (otdel), nor the chief directorate (glavk), t , absolutely nothing ((else is indicated therein))... ((that is)) all. ; A. What else was written in the identification: B. Below, below, before the stamp and the signature, on the right, is written in small type: "The holder of the identification is permitted 3 to keep and bear firearms (Viadel tsu Udostovereniya Pazresheno ot khraneniye i nosheniye ognestrel'nogo oruzhiya)". 3 q, But when you came to the KGB, did you bring some kind of weapon (oruzhiye) from the Navy: Ws Aang dee net ae bnmite te B. No, no, no. ype Sas kila ah on ed bE
14-00000 RBG ats a __h- | | | | | | | \ ' Second Chief Directorate’ “I. think I received ((it)) in 1953. Agen ae Fete FAP ep TEL TEU SRO Lei Gil 0 ROE How, under what circumstances, and where. ; ((after a long pause, & speaks, with uncertainty))... The weapon, 4 the weapon, where did I receive the weapon . 4 I received the weapon on ((Dzerzhinskiy)) street, here on pzerzninskiy Street. . Approximately, approximately, opposite isel'nyy Street (pereulok). Also, such a run-LoOWn Little building. On the outside there is no identification (Vneshne ni chem ne ob"yasnish'), no sign of any kind, nothing.... A small building of two or three stories; I was there.... J received a weapon; someone else of the boys fron the department (6tdel) received a weapon. : What was needed in order to receive & weapon. : ((Pauses)) To my thinking, we received ((something)), as... 4 receipt for forwarding (dlya napravleniya)... to... well... to this section (otdeleniye), from our supply man khozyaystvennik), SAMARIN . You remember what kind ((of weapon)) they gave you- I will tell you now... to my thinking, I had... the last time, this... ((2G; B speaks very softly; then, a long pause)) ...It seems I had a Walther Number 2... yes, in the beginning, a ' Walther Number 2. a ORE ETE SS Then it was changed. sone ee No, a "TT", a "TT". : And the Walther I had was mine (A Val'ter eto u menya byl lichnyy)... a A "TT"... correct. =e ee toe 5 Fo
14-00000 B. Yes; a big one (zdorovyy). A. Did they give cartridges for it. B. Two clips (oboyna). 4 hip sedan ication! ae A. Could you taxe it home. B. No... a weapon... the idea is that we nust keep ((it)) in a safe. It was this way in the beginning. They kept the weapon in the sate. Then, they thought it up; they cave the weapons over to ((the seeping of)) the duty officer (deznurnyy). There was a room where they put (xuda sdavali) all the weapons by departnents (po otdelam). One fellow of sone sort ((was)) responsible for the weapons. He issued it, received it, when it was needed for firing, for the range; they cleaned it. (2G) then, in the safe; then back; this room was eliminated, along with the duty officer, and again they issued ((them)) and kept ((then)) in the safes. Now, for example, in recent years, they laid in the safes until 1953. . In 1963, azain (({they were stored)) by departments and even fron each section (etdeleniye); there was a single responsible person “ae in the department and he collected, he collects the weapons for ail sections, he gives you a little receipt-coupon (talonchik); you have a receipt-coupon which ((indicates that)) we are holding ((the weapon)) in the safe, such a little yellow ((receipt-~coupon))._ Because your number is shown there, etc. POE EN i . . f 14 OS es. ete And when it is necessary to go to the range, you receive it. But, if you go somewhere on an operational assignment, etc., then > 8 what. — hit \ 4 i
3 OATIC UR he spebtratetse sn SERRE cersaesatsinetenttieimmetettereetes oe or is hon 5 A. Se ee ee PR IE ON Oe OG PF OH Ne etd dh ee te te he ee, te hh hebial shated A ae | Rady US BF in and get ((it)); you present this yellow coupon-receipt (kv itochex). - } What «= was there an officer in each department, who was responsible for the weapons Responsible for the weapons. Of the department (otdel). Yes. Ned Are you certain of this. Absolutely.... But, again, I say ((that)) in the beginning we kept, in 1253-54, we kept ((them)) richt in the safe. Each man held ((his weapon)) in the safe. But was it permitted to take ({the weapons)) home. No... no, no. Way: Well, anything... a person may get drunk... can happem.... Here again... you confirm this absolutely exactly... but this ((is)) not wholly so. That is, what ({is)) not sov 3 do not want to explain everything. Will you tell me where I am saying ((sonething that is)) not so. —SEBRET— a aw Me eer mane eaey amg meee i ‘ HS poe ate dT so Tattas sald Boned
14-00000 imememanmsnnanomn cy kept tthe weapons)) in tae eure ~ A, Tnere is no objection to this. | The question (Cis), why were they not permitted to take ((the 4 weapons) ) hone. . It “is written in the ((identification)) certificate: “It is permitted to keep and bear...." ; B. Well, the idea ({is)), this is what, a weapon. You go to a meet (yavka), you return fron the meet, you (. have documents, you must have a weapon.... The idea ((is)) ... But an employee could take ((a weapon)) . Please, take it; he could take ((it)) home. But if something happens... children play there and... there are growm children and.... A. The employees also ((is)) a grown person. , : Prepare I think he is responsible for his actions. if he gets pretty drunk or overedrinks, what has happened is without doubt his business ((i.e., responsibility)). , When you came to the KGB, did you have some kind of uniforn: Clothing: B. My Navy uniforn. J A. The Navy uniform also ((is)) different: There are various ((uniforms)), you know. eee maces statin le aes Ronee ort + etn bo B. ((After a long pause, B speaks, with uncertainty.)) Lieutenant.... A. Further? Middle ((Higher School, er tight-fitting oman, VUZK aya: or vuzkaya?) vase | a ore te a RADII EET TINTS wo e we ‘ghoulder straps (pogon), tunic (xitel'), trousers. . os Sse yin onr: saton sousacbion esos a
74-90000 oeciemamannnnr WS ERIE OF BHOULGET Straps Che yout B, Sea duty personnel (Plavsostav). A. Why ((the shoulder straps of)) sea duty personnel. B. I wore both the shore duty (beregovaya) ((uniform)) and ((that)) of sea duty personnel. Of sea duty personnel, as.... A. Which must you wear. I:, so to speak, ((dressed)) correctly. B. “£ shore duty (Beregovoy) ({personnel)), of shore duty . A. Of shore duty (Beregovoy sluzhby) ((personnel)). B. Of shore duty personnel, because we did not sail aboard ships. A. You cane to the KGB; how did they have you dress (kak Vas stali odevat') here: Or, what happened to the old uniform? B, Absolutely nothing happened. I... came... I presented the clothing and equipment supply certificate (veshchevoy attestat} at Rybnyy Street (pereulok), this ((is))} near pene penn gana ems et ae i toe . Kuybyshev Street (ulitsa), where they received... stores ({or ao supplies - imushchestvo)). There I received material for a uniform of the MVD, KGB. : |. But I did not have any uniform made. So the naterial lay at home. i ((But I received)) money for the tailoring ((of a uniform)). ; Then... when... around 1956, from 1956 I did not receive (ya ne | stal poluchat') clothing (obmunidirovaniye), because..the problem wasz: resolved -<- the employees repeatedly raised the question: “We are ia why IMRes AGAIN Etro. atte cernonteRNN NS sueoeemeeN dh oenee one oni
14-00000 Besa’ . sik: Sawn ww srwedlncae) namventemesttion eateecomimmetmrti 06+ we absolutely do not go atout ff uniform; why do we receive a uniforn. i Could one ((instcad)) receive civilian clothes “ i a co WR Hi Deas After this... a nunber (ryad)... in a nunber of departments (otdel), not in a nunber of departnents, but in all departnents, the problem i ((of)) who would (budet) receive was resolved; department chiefs, the leaders (rukovodstvo) of the departments will decide who will | . a receive civilian clothes, who will receive military clothing. Let us suprose ((that}) a section ((is)) peripheral, is responsible (zanimayetsya) ((Cfor functions concerning)) the periphery ((i.e. outlying areas in the Soviet Union)). ((it was decided that ‘You will)) receive only military clothing; civilian clothes are nothing for you; you do not work with agents (agentura), and if you do work ((with asents)), you go ((for such work)) only rarely”. Tose who work against foreigners, against an embassy, those fellows were pernitted to receive civilian clothing. . We received civilian clothes ~~ one time, on Rybnyy ((Street - pereulok)), but then we were attached (prikrepili) ((for this purpose)) to the surveillance departments (po otdelan slechki). And I received ((civilian clothes)) together with surveillance i ((personnel))... but, for me... here, across fron Dzerzhinskiy : 4 ((Street)), here, near Cherkasskiy Street (pereulok), I received : civilian clothes here. Then, since 1953 or 1953, the question -- may one receive, not. civilian clothes, but money: -~ has been resolved, But here, the percentage ((of the increase of pay for clothing)) . one ; s was small, . Here they decided... they gave ((it)) only to the fellows who know a ((foreign)) language. . ; ; a : They had in mind that they would dress as.... ((That they would dress)) a little better, a Little better. Because, here, you understand, you go to receive civilian clothes; — sh
14-00000 5 ne EOD RAL Ot: no aH en oe ey ee menne senean saamneedEe Gh Fi HALEL AK TE OU FECelve ChE MaAteriasi, tac qua a 2 &, were your rank, not on the position’ (dolzhnost’ ), but ‘the rank, and... in fact, the material which the colonels, Lieutenant colonels received (was)) good, but ((for persons of ranks)) up to (Qlicutenant a heart Ried $ 8 eolonel andcolonel))... the material ((was)) not very good. Yhen we received the material, it was proposed, a sult every year, iy de 6 ant heddaiee dist shoes, a shirt every year, a coat (pal'to) every two years. dees mee ai ae on But the material you receive, you would not wear it, the quality is so poor. Usually, they sold it. 7 : They put ((it)) in the commission store (v Nomissionku) and sold ((it>) And so you sell ((it)) and have clothing made, of course, ef better material of better quality. But since about 1958 I received only money. Approximately how much did they pay ((for clothing)) for a year. Oh, this depends upon, you see, let us suppose ((that)) I received. when... the last time... something, I was working in the Seventh Department (Otdel) in later (poslednyye) years... 1362 or 1983; I could have received, for the coat, for both suits, altogether, but this ((would have been)) approximately 500 rubles, in new currency. 500 rubles. 450-460 rubles. oe nme aie ee tmmnen UE cape ar On cae Approximately when did they change the identifications (udostovereniye) | of the MVD to ((those of)) the KGB: When did they begin to change them. But the KGB... was organized in 1955 or the end of 1954. I also do not remember ((this)) date exactly. And they began gradually to change the identifications. —SEEREE-—
nee So. Red. Again, the seal (gerb), ((the inscription:)) Comaittee for State Security under the CH USSR ((Si SSSR - Sovict “Ministrov SSSR = Council of Hinisters of the USSR)). Inside, ((it is)) the sane, but ((the inscription is)) not the hvD, but the Ministry for State Security (Ministerstvo Gosbexopasnosti). And it is written the sane. With the exception only that the words ((vere)) not “Uinistry of Internal Avfairs", ut ‘Committee for State Sccurity under the Council of Ministers of the USSR”. It also peruitted the bearing of weapons. Yes, weapons, also. Who signs the identifications. Here, you see, it depends then on ((one's)) official position (dolzhnostnoye polozheniye). fake ((as an example)): a junior, senior.... Case officer. The chief of a department (otdel)..., of the Directorate (upravleniye) now,... of Personnel signs, or the Deputy Chief of the Personnel Directorate signs. ((Por)) a section (otdeleniye) Chief, a section chief signs, the Chief of the Directorate, yes, the Chief of the Personnel Directorate, | ((sigens)) for the chief of a section. But a section chief has a better identification, such,... up to ((the aiorntaice td mer Mase es canes oo be
14-00000 a then fron (tthe position of)) Section chile? identification)), ((one nas 2)) leather ((-bound identification)). Netter quality. A section chief, the deputy chicf of a department, a department bene a chief, etc., ({nave)) such identifications certificates, sturdy= lookinz, but little darker red. ; i If it is of Morocco -~ ((it is)) poor, a bright red; but this ((other one is)) darker (({red)). Well, it looks more sturdy, the identification itself, more durable, the leather ((is)) good. Then: for the section chief, the directorate chief ((signs)) fer the ceputy chief of a department -- the Deputy Chairman signs. A. Sut, when you entered -- you say, in 1953 —— hy whom was your identification signed. B. ((Pause)) I do not remenber, the Chief or the Deputy Chief of the Personnel Directorate. 2 Or, then, it was the Personnel Department, and not Directo.wate, the Personnel Department. i A. Well, if you received it in the beginning of your work == say, in : 3 3 aa ; “4 March or April: B. It seens that.... — a I remenber, I remember, T remember ~= ((it was)) ZAPOLOTNYY. A. Who (({is)) this ZABOLOTNYY- B. Colonel ZABOLOTNYY; he worked in Personnel. oP nents PRs kee oe Deputy Chief of the Personnel Directorate or Department, ZABOLOTNYY. In 1954, they made him chief of the Second Special Department _ (Spetsotdel) in place of KARASEV. They removed KARASEV, who had been Chief of the Second Special. : oak ae Department -= audio penetration (podslushivaniye) for many years. Bo romsanambien
14-00000 + Saad * Froa 1960 (Convard)), he worzed (rabotayet) in the Border Troops, as Chief of the Political Directorate. But why did they transfer hin to political work. Whaat ~- he ((is)) a political worker (politrabotnik). In general, he ((is)) a political worker. He had worked, generally speaxing, sonewhere in the Central Conmittee ((Tsk = Tsentral'nyy Komitet)); a Party worker. Grigoriy Ivanovich ZABOLOTNYY. And the identification was signed by hin at this tine. By ZABOLOTNYY . And you had this identification until what tine. Well, they changed ((them)). They changed this first identification, then they changed ((then)) to the KGB. Then, it, this identification was changed a few times in the KGB For what reason was it changed: For a period... it ((was)) given (ukazan) a definite period (opredelennyy srok). Tae certificate ((was)) valid for such-and-such a period. That it was given for two years, 50. But what if a person were a Lieutenant and ((then)) a senior lieutenant, then a colonel? In this case, you have the right: you give your Personnel man, Who... — is in the Second Chief Directorate (Glavk), the usual necessary —SECRET-——- we Rear eta many tente -odjeatarrerseamnet cau eset biatch bobs des deve ate Me natediliee ee ies. te aetes Ne eS Se bbe RES cob cet iat. i ~ ae
14-00000 ((this)) -=- 1 was a case offféer; now I ((am)) a senior case officer’, A. Anddid you change ((your identification)). B. Yell, there, after a sonth, two nonths, a month and a half, two { weeks, it is changed. 4 ((Tais is)) also ((the case with changes of)) ran. ; When your rank changes, you go to the Personnel man, give ((hin)) a photo. : Vell, another time, you co not hurry there -~ ((it is chanzed)) : after several months; so. A. When you were leaving there, let us say, in 1352 or 1964, who was Deputy Chief of the Personnel Directorate or Chief of the Personnel Directorate. B. I have written the whole layout... to my thinking... ((it was)) VA... VASIL'YEV ((Speaks with uncertainty.)). A. But where did this ((person)) cone from (ottuda payavilsya): B. I know only this thing about VASIL'YEV: he then was working, he was for some years, he was Secretary of the Party organization of the Third Directorate. That is, he worked in the Third Directorate, and I do not know what . . he was doing. : Then they elected him Secretary of the Party organization of the Third Directorate. He worked as Secretary of the Party organization of the Third Directorate. Whether he was in the re-elections for two or three years, I do not know. From the Third Directorate Party work, he received a promotion, and they took him, well, into Personnel, into Personnel of the First ~“%: toch Chief Directorate, in the intelligence line, not into Central . SECRET ——
APCS eh oh UMIYS MALY Sg WU LLSFCSHBORNGL UnGe 14-00000 & Wh EPWRAA de OW titi ' ((Pirst Chief)) Directorate; he headed the Personnel Group (gruppa) under the Directorate... of the First ((Chicf)} Directorate. A. What kind of pronotion is this. ( (To head) ) a Personnel Group. : B. I do not know. A. The Party organiz.tion of such a large directorate, but then Chief of the Personnel Section (Otdeleniye) or Group. B. Well, in the First ((Chief)) Directorate, greater significance attaches to Personnel. A. Whatever great significance would attach.... B. Well, I know that he was taken from the Third Directorate, fron ((the position)) of Secretary of the Party organization of the Third Directorates, he was taken into Personnel in the First ((Chief)) Directorate. Wea ete dae From Personnel of the First ((chief)) Directorate, he was trans- ferred soon to Central Personnel as Deputy Chief of the ((Personnel)) Directorate, but then they made him Chief of the ((Personnel)) Directorate. A, But who was his deputy. 4 : : B. Now... his deputy now (Cis)) KuZ*HIN. a He became First Deputy ((Chief)) EUZ'MIN not long ago. He became First Deputy ((Chief)) around 1962, a tey da nengaeewig we eaeeteat Before this, he — KUZ'MIN -< was chief of a department (otdel) in Central Personnel. Yes, about 1962. . The Chief of the Pirst Department of Personnel took his place (Vmesto nego stal).
2s tm ss conan te ERAS Ri a nentecnemn ene eriie Stk Rene Sens nates see tee (rukovodyashchiye), Central Personnel, Central Personnel. — Cut another department there ~— ( (responsible for)) let us say , the peripheral personnel (periferiynyye xadry) ((i.e., personnel . assigned to outlying districts fi the USSR)) =~ was ((neaded by)) this KUZ"UIN. Haj Gen NAYMUSHIN was for a tine; “before VASIL*YEV, Chief of the Personnel Directorate.... . SVETLICHNYY, present Chief of the Directorate ({of the KGB)) for Hoscow and Moscow Oblast, worked in Personnel at one tine. But from where did he come in Moscow. I do not know where he came fron. I know, the first time I heard about hia (Cit was)) that SVETLICANYY (Chad worked)) in Personnel, as a Personnel man. Yes, and ((tnat)) he was NAYMUSHIN's chief, to my thinking... he, NAYMUSHIN was Chief, and he was Deputy ((Chief)). | NAYHUSHIN went to Central Asia, as Chairman of the KGB in Uzbekistan; here, SVYETLICHNYY became ((Chief)} for some tine. Then, SVETLICHNYY was taken into the Directorate ((of the KGB))... for Hoscow City and Noscow Oblast -—— there were two: for Moscow City, and for Moscow Oblast; he received: ((the rank of)) major general while in Personnel. I do not know where he worl:ed before this. Let us return for a minute, again, to the entrances (pod"yezd) to Building 12, Well, is there one entrance on Dzerzhinskiy Street (ulitsa); or how many of them are there on Dzerzhinssiy Street. On Dzerzhinuskiy Street, ((there is)) only the entrance (vkhod) to the Club. There are no more entrances (pod"yezd) ((on Dzerzhinskiy Street))... And then, where (Care they)): She
14-00000 sare ans atta 2, «eRe TARE comeemecestine t terteSBeiaet 2 8 cimcetteties easeeR RAE amrontctenyhcatee B asES mt yee = 6: A. a. entrance (pod"yezd) ((is}) there. The second entrance. som een rt a nom Vhich, what -= it leacs to the Gastronon No; the second entrance ((is)) next to the Gastronon. : Hext to the Gastronon. But where is the entrance (vikhod) to the Gastrono: ; ! This ((is)} the entrance (vxhod), separate (sano sopoy), and there, next to the Gastronon... Tae entrance to the Gastronon, sec... frou Dzershinskiy Street, and the entrance to the Gastronom is fron... nere, this, here ((is)) the throuch-street (proyezd), as it is called, between DCuilding 12 and Buildins 2, ((there is)) also an extrance (vishod). Two entrances. Fron Dzerzhinskiy Street and an entrance from here. ((In affirmation of understanding)) Uauh. But what was (nakhodilos') at Entrance No. 2 (pod"yezd noner 2). At Entrance No. 2: Which departnents (otdel), which elenests (podrazdeleniye) were there (sideli). The Border Treops -~- on which floor I co not know; I was at Entrance.+--- No. 2 only in the section (otdeleniye) concerning the Archives ; (arkhiv). When I went abroad, before the trip abroad, I looked at the exit files (vyyezdnoye delo) on the members of the group with which I was going. Since when have the Archives been located there’ X know that it is located there, right there, nov. This ((is)) a part (chast') of the Archives. SECRET ——
14-00000 y etd sera Pte tort Afi enenenbeteantantt ts BE eamteeD: gate a eetlealiten AMAR: At POLAR MAINTE Hm Sabo Meee EB ‘ A part of the Archives. specizically, I personally was only... im... I looed at the exit: files. And I saw Border Troops (nocranichnik) there; in Corder Troops unifor:. Let us so ((on)) to the third entrance (pod"yexzd). “I never was at ((i.e., used)) the third entrance. I do not know what is there, Well, how... No; ((wait)) one minute. I was (byl) at the third cntrance, I was (sidel) at the third entrance, I went a few times: Lt Gen BEL'CHENKO was ({there)), he headed, Lt Gen BEL'CHENXO was Chief of the Tnird Special Department (Spetsotdel), now, the Third Special Department, yes. Thais ((is)) the department which prepared various documents. Well, ((if)) you need some kind of cover (krysha), cover (prikrytiye) or to have a document ((showing)) that you ((are)) a member of the Organization of Journalists or that you work in the Ministry of Culture, and... a false passport (pasport fal shivyy), this department prepared everything. YWhat was this department called earlier. The Third Special Departnent. Well, let us take ((for example)), in 1953? The Third Special Department in 1953, This ((is)) the Third Special Department. I wrote a paper addressed to (na imya) the Chief of the Third Special Department, Lt Gen BEL*'CHENKO, to the Chief of the Third SECRET a a4 3 4
14-00000 A. But until it became (({the Third Special Departnent))... what was it i called. aa B. I do not know. oo i I do not know what it was called. Now it is part of (C'in the system" ~ v sisteme)) the OTU =~ the a a Operational-Technical Directorate (Operativno-Tekhnichesxoye Upravleniye). A. Let us go ((on)) to the fourth ((entrance)), B, Tne fourth. At this entrance, then, ((there are)) the chiefs (rukovodstvo), the chiefs of the Second Special Department and a part of the Second Special Department; telephones -=- "Narusya™ #=— it all ((i.e., the whole part)) is (sidit) here, audio penetration (podslushivaniye). Then, here, now, now, the chiefs of the Operational-Technical to Directorate, the OTU, are here. Here ((is)) the Sixth Special Department, formerly the Sixth ((Special Department)), now, also the Sixth Department of the OTU; this ((is for)) censorship ({perlustration - perlu stratsiya)) of correspondence.... Here.... i A, Let us go ((on)) to the fifth ((entrance)). q B. I never was at the fifth ((entrance)). ; To my thinking, ((it is)) closed, and... there is not entrance (vkhod) there. The fifth, this, see... just as you go in from Malaya Lubyanka ((street)), Malaya Lubyanka, you go through a little courtyard here -— which I have said already, closed off (ogorozhen) so, by a high iron grille, ((there is)) a free entry ((i.c., a pass is not. necessary in order to gain access to the courtyard tarough the snall Set a0 1h bay Bett elke eomn oetimnoee EBL atl at eaten tonto amen tatAneninetets oe the sae
14-00000 ae ee ee] So, the fifth, here, around the corner, ((is)) closed and, to ny | thinkins, I never went there. : The sixth ((entrance)), there, straignteaway tae sixth (pryano shestoy)... the sixth entrance, then; the FINO ((Finance Departnent -— Finansovyy Otdel}) (Cis)) here. A. And the seventh ((entrance)). a ck aen te ceeeretemmnee eraan eaane it B. The seventh; to my thinking, a part of Personnel also is (sidit) here, a part of Personnel is at the seventh; tae Planning Department (Planovyy Utdel) is there..; yes, ({and)) the HOB Departuent is somewhere here, here is the Mobilization Department (Hobilizatsionny. Otdel}, not all ((of it)). The chiefs (rukovodstvo) ({are)) in the New Building now.... And that is all. A. Well, and the eighth ((entrance)). bs B.. ((At)) the eichth, as I say, ({is)) the Party Conmittee (Partkom). A. You always insist that you saw ROZHENKO there, at the cighth- B. At the eighth, yes. A. For your information, he never was (ne sidel) there. - _ B. He was. ((It is)) another matter, what ((came)) later; later == [ do not i remember the year =-— he was taken into Personnel of the First Directorate. Where he was taken is not important. But the Personnel Department (Otdel Kadrov) was never at the eighth _ ; entrance. an itt “2 ERR rw aA tenn tee anappandnstna ssiaitonene + ° Ye te ttind tty, 2h é _
14-00000 A. Especially in 19353, ((vhen)) they invited you there, ctc., none of the Personnel people were at the cichth entrance. B. On the sixth floor, on the sixth floor. A. It is interesting for ne, of course, to hear that vou insist ((upon this)}, but it is impossible for me to believe this, ‘{(since)) it vas not ((so)). fie : B. I do not know, I do not tnow. Ian telline you what (kak) I remember and where I was, A. Perhaps it was at another entrance. You simply have forgotten: B. No, no, no, no. This cannot be. This is the farthermost (srayniy) entrance, the very farthest entrance, there where the dietetic restaurant (Dietstolovaya) ((is)), where the library ((is)). A. Where is the ninth entrance. ‘ B. Tne ninth, I do not know where. The ninth entrance. Is there a ninth?’ A. There is. , : i B. I do not know the ninth. X do not know. A. What (kak) do you think. You have worked there so nuch tine, and se forth. Sh LDP: 017 HOY DRRRRRRRNR Gi WN atntepamtNeee oo amt RATe ee. bh mtr sen ee ee Hit t ‘ "I r S vagy AEGEAN 2. tts fran Lite a PSF
ehirntameroetaeetilt 8S; Butmmoncurseemsmeen ene niet a teste | senses sw Cc. I do not know way I do not know. Is there one ((i.e., 2 ninth entrance)). F. H t ‘ § i t . ‘ There is. I do not know, I do not know; I was not ((there)). You aust know where it ((is)) and what ((is)) there. I do not know. Is it that you consider the ninth entrance ((to be that of)} the Directorate ({of the KGD)) for Moscow and Noscow Oblast nore currently. This building ((of that Directorate is)) uncer a conpletely different number, and they are next to.... They are near ((each other)), they are attached. Nearby, but it has another number. And it has its ({own)) entrance. ‘fhe entrance from Lubyanka ((Street)). From Halaya Lubyanka. Where the ninth ((is located)), or.... ; nS ‘ I do not know, I do not know; the ninth I do not know. If you know all the rest, the others, what reason, why can you not tell ((about)) the ninth. eta mee Because I do not know if it exists, whether there is one; and if Tue EAE TE eee there js one, then I never was there, and I do not know where it is twee «
14-00000 ere edness cee ts ten EE Ny TI Wen een ante Tn Rh ene eres PR in ee a oe 2 A. A person sho has worked ((therec)) 11 years can in no way niss it... TS pty et I do not nov. XY do not ‘snow more. ((Tnaere are}) no entrances of any “ind here. ioe a You could not in any way have missed.... I co not-iinow, I do not tsnovw. Yowever it oes, hovever it twists, you willd@ n&hing ((i.e., you cannot chance the facts)), because it exists and people co there every cay. ((Laurhs)) Well, shere is it. Where is it. In Building 12, In Building 12, look i Here are four ((entrances)): it ends with the fourth; around the i corner, the entrance (vkhod) fron the courtyard —- here ((2iso)) are four: the fifth is closed —» I never was there -=- the sixth, seventh, cighth; there, tnat is all. ; : ano We can talk this way for a long time, but I an inclined to say agaia ‘ t that you must think up seomthing more substantial or more truthful. Do you want me to think up something for you, or to tell the truth en crt nen nonpabarnaton oe as I know ((it)): Speaking of the eighth entrance, speaxing of the seventh entrance, speaking of the ninth entrance and speaking of the fifth entrance, “"""s if you worked ((there)) 11 years, you must know ((them)) as ((you 2 § : A ¥ t z F § at Sirens
14-00000 _ 1. A ga fg ba Adee ng rer mmmasw mee ce ge meg Hm Ian tclling you what I know, when and chat entrances I used (vishodil... vyhodil). | IL co not know another entrancc. yen o> i A, What do you think (ial: Vy schitayete); what conclusion aust I nake, 3 i 4 when tae ninth entrance exists.... : H 5 gp. ((interrupts)) I do not know where it is. A. ...And a nuaber of clenents (podrazdeleniye) which work very closely with the Second Chief Directorate are there, and an enployee who worked there 11 years docs not know about this. B. I have enuzerated for you all entrances of Building 12 which.... A. The problem is that that is not all ((of the entrances)). And I see no basis, if you know all the rest, more or less, ((for)) why you do not tell ((about)) the ninth. pO ; B. I do not know the ninth. : i I told you that I do not know. ° : Well, how can you pose the question so A. I certainly am not ((just))posing ((a question)). .  ; i | It exists. t One can in no way (ni kak, ni kuda) throw it out. i i B. I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. : 4 i . : * ¢ 3 . : : a A. There it is written, in white on black or black on white, “Entrance 4 No. 9". : B. I do not know Entrance 9. ah R AL tes ais ined ne raed « waives wane wien cote ibe ‘
14-00000 ze ae, seen sn GttttaeBERiibe nengsveee meme mate mmareee eB mee cairn aes ate meat yt te “you in the “oscow Oblast ((XGB building)). In the ltuildins: itself About tvo tines, probably, or three. in the thole ll years, only about two or three tines. Yes. And how many times during your 11 years of work did you pass by along Malaya Lubyanka ((Street)). Fron its ((the street's)) beginning to its end. It would seen (Kak budto by) I did so (proshodil) a few tines, of course. Well, “a few times", this is a loose idea (ponyatoye rastyazhimoye). After 11 years, to say "a few times", this is almost ((as if to say you)) were not ((there)) at all. I passed by a few times, but I did not count how many times. I did not have to, there was no need to pass along the whole of Malaya Lubyanka ((Street)) often. I went, by the way, in 1953, I often went to Lubyanka, but... I went via Malaya Lubyanka. ; —_ Why: . I had a certain safe apartment (konspirativnaya kvartira) when I began to work in 1953; this K/K No. 7 was on Markhlevskiy Street _ (wlitsa); it is parallel to Lubyanka. One could go along Harkhlevskiy Street then, but I went along.... ((interrupts)) Well, we have enough time ((to talk)) about this apartment No. 7 and Markhlevskiy Street. Can you briefly explain to me =- begin fron Halaya Lubyanka, straight from Building 12 and up -- what was there: | Dae 7 nC ome eee: | sucha hain B badibleaticah Babe ae
swale a eae eee siete pits eT eee om One . cic hd ET Eo PERDANA OROPRRION ine CDOTS ts AEA LANNE ee WAYS UAE es Ree 2p abn am ator ete attr Let us finish with Puildins 12; further, the ‘foscow Oblast ((xe3. buildinz)), begins.... Opposite, opposite, ((is)) a noteworthy place, here, opposite the Catholic church (kostel). So; what is before (peredc) the church. Some !:ind of low buildinzg.-—- two floors, to my thinking. Vhat is located there in it, what special ((tnins)). I do not tznow of anythins special. I never was there. To my thinking, our housexeeping and supply offices (khozyaystvo) were there: of the MVD-=.G38., Further, let us go ((on)) ceyond the church. The usual buildings (Obycanyy dom); I never went there to even one of then.... On the left, on the right. ... Either on the left, ((or)) on the right. Nothing special. Nothing special, noteworthy. ces There is nothing noteworthy. No. _Sittet cn pte em angen enone eee ated + ot Stee PR RET LERNER 22 of tos
14-00000 Ap fa ore tothe when hrs aa cxetar abe BR castes Pe tr ERRATA ATO é i i 4 > You Imow, if I worked there Yor quite 2 lencth of tine and you worked ((there)) 11 years, I also had no special reason to so alonz this street == let us say I did ((this)) two tines less, so -- tut, on the basis of what I saw and what I know, it seers to me ((that)) you must know more than I, especially ((concernins)) more recent tines. 3 Because in 11 years, not only in the way of work and cases, Sut f 4 simply because it happened so (tai mozhet byt'), I rode along, walked along ((this street)). : ' Not necessarily. It ((is just)) an alley (( dead end" - tupichek)), a little throughestreet (pereulochek), Halaya Lubyanka; if one has to go on Malaya Lubyanka, then only (XG). ...This alley, etc.; it is alongside the KGB and Duilding 2 and Building 12 and ((the building of the KGB for)) Moscow Oblast and.... ((interrupts)) Well, and what of such (chto zh takogo) (XG)... it is not necessary for YOu.... | | Each KGB employee knows all of these buildings as ((he knows his own) ) | fingers. What ((they are)), for what, where. | What I needed to know, I knew. | Why can you not explain this. - i . I have explained to you. | ; : 3 What I needed to know, I knew; I am explaining to you. + : And again the question: how ((do you)) explain why (chto) you cannot correctly say where the Personnel Directorate is situated, ~~ ((why)) you cannot say that it is at the fifth entrance (pod"yezd), Set —
14-00000 Bett + i th neato sw vean red aay, ((can do)) so about other entrances: I must say that a part of what vou have said is the truth, as it concerns 1953, approximately. Understand ((me)); how ((is it that)) you do not understand; you 7 t are working in Central (Tscntral'nyy) Building 2, I am working in Building 2, so, there in the Old Building; do I go much, often, to “the New Building, Oy, Oy, OY, OY, oY' Very rarely. For what is it necessary for me to go to Building 12. If it was necessary for me to go to the Party Connittee (Partkoa), I went to the Party Committee; if it was necessary for ne ((to go)) to Personnel -- it was not necessary for =e to go to Personnel, no one phoned me; there was no need whatsoever for me to fo to Personnel.. Where did I go. I went to the sixth entrance in Building 12 ~=— this is FINO; there, set me prnmemenesepabnenitee nt they reccive money and they write out travel documents there <= I went there. . Now. i But, there is the cighth _ the Party Comnittee of the Komsonol ((i.e., the Zonsomol Committee, although B says, “Partken Komsonola")), when I went in 1953-54, then, the Party Party Committee ((i.e., the Party Committee; B thus distinguishes it -= "Partkom Komsonol")). So, now, (C(I went)) to the fourth entrance most often, because (1) had (prikxhodilos') to give assignments (zadaniye) to the Second Special Department, to the Sixth Special Department -~ ((I went)) here often. I was at the second entrance a few times. =~ tais ((was)) about two er three before ((my)) departure abroad; ((that is)) all. There was no further necessity ((for me)) to go to Building 12. Absolutely none. You say that you went to the Operational squipment Directorate - ae (Upravleniye Operativnoy Tekhniki) ((i.e., the Operational-Technical St
14-00000 é sates aes ‘ 3 sme C46 .5the ‘Operational-Technical Directorate, OTU)) , and. go. B. Yes. A. If you went there, often save ({(ticn)) assignments, etc., then how * | do you explain that you do not know General SAVCiIINA.O, Ivan Tikhonovich; how do you explain this . . i B. I do not inow, I do not know SAVCHINIZO. A. I do not sce any basis, if you know, there is no sense and no basis ((for you)) not to talt: about this. B, I eo not nov. I ((just)) now said: I went.... A. He is not dead; he was there, he is there. B. ((Wait)) one minute. I am telling you ((that)) I went to the Second Special pepartment; to whom did I give assignments. | Well, the first year, 1953 -~ to KARASEV, personally to the Chief fee ee gtpeeettas + anata ee of the Second Special Department; then, later, to ZABOLOTRYY . To the Sixth Special Departuent -- to SHCHIXOCHIKHIN, to SHCHIXOCHIKHIN i To whon else... well, you go, in the Second Special Department, to “Marusya'™, YANICHEV, BORISENKO, you go to these ((persons)). ((That is)) ali. In 1962~63,.I went a few times to PATRUKHIN... from the chiefs of the OTU; ((that is)) all. To whom.else did I go: these questions of which we have talked today. “prisalm niga wae dr I consider it a direct necessity to return again to then, SECRET i { t 1 | 4 A. For our next conversation, I want you to think a Little about i i i ;
: | | [ i ¢ | | | | hee B. A, ‘But I have told you only that which I remember. Please. . oe rer } : i i I think that we tried very hard to introduce order in the questions and answers, but I do not see that you ((In znglish:)) clear up everything. foo bad (iaprasno), too had. I consider that you -- despite some truthfulness in your statements, in the testinony which you vive, etc. -- are inclined, anyway, for gome reason unknown to me ((mnot to tell the {cuth)) -- cither you are not telling the truth or you do not know ((the answers to)) these questions which one would know ((how to)) answer just like taat ((Snaps fingers)).... ((Interrupts)) That which I know, I answer. .-. Without any hesitation. In addition, you make ((what)), in your view, perhaps, it seems, ((are)) small mistakes, but in my view == very large ((ones)) -- when, for example, you say ((that)) ROZHENKO ((was)) at the eighth entrance, where he never was (gde on nikogda ne sidel). I do not know. Z saw the Personnel man (kadrovik) only at the eighth ((entrance)). I would not want our more or less friendly conversation to change to a stronger course (ruslo). I would consider it useful that you think ((about this)). ; ood. Loney I have told you that, you see what -- you already put the question | so (tak)... absolutely not believing.... Well, I cannot.... - Eiwdeaes.. What I know, I tell (XG). a ie
14-0000 : ee 6D DE eh ag hdd NR ER OD het HA a hh tbh hg iy = Ji hs ee A LEG Y is to help you and to help my colleagues in sone measure, though they are fully convinced and have their ((own)) correct opinion. I think (schitat') that you should think in general about that t- : position in waich you find yourself (nakhodit'sya). And when we talk about ((some)) questions, if they ((i.e., the i wbiibadich, ott ansvers)) are not known to you, it will be much simpler to say that 6 ‘yy was not there and I do not know than to drag in, or to do something like that, your ((own)) conclusions, such as: "I imagine" or "I think’. Everyone can imagine and can lie.... B. But that is the reason; you ask ne, but I tell you that I do not know, but I imagine so... thus. A. Because imagination sonetimes can misinform (dezinformirovat').... B. So, I emphasized to you: “It is my imagination’ (2G)... ((at)) : this moment, when [I have explained it to you, I have said that I 4 do not know exactly, I can only say “imagination”. A, One cannot, for example, believe -- if a person has worked ((there)) 1? years and knows that he began ((work)) in 1953; a person who has worked there cannot say that, at the eighth entrance, he was in the Personnel Department, which never was there ((at the eighth entrance)). : = tee B. Well, if I went, ((if)) I had these conversations there.... . i Before my entrance (postupleniye) ((on duty)), precisely ((at that time of entrance on duty)), and ((even)) now a part {chast') of 2 4 Personnel is there, it is (sidyat) ((there)). What —= they did not want to let you in the Personnel Department and a-Personnel man went to the Party Committee (Partkom) or the Komsomo2...: Pes; . + Oe ae Sy tts ae See B. ((interrupts)) Lord, deliver ((me)); Lord, deliver ((me)); I even Sth ek , ; Hd ‘ i? BART 9 ahs pert oa
14-00000 es such-idea-(predstavieniye)—((that-such-was-the-ease cc because I saw the office (rabochaya obstanovka), I saw ((that)) - ~ ak 4 or 3 officers sit in the office, they have mpers on the desk.. : what. , . No ((that was no‘) the case)). A. I think that we will stop on this ((point)) today. og XI think we will meet again. B. I would like to say only one ((thing)). That my, it was, it was my sincere wish to say, hiding nothing... A. ((€In Snglish)) Well, between us, it seems not completely so to me. B. But for me... there is no reason cf any kind to hide something or to conceal something such. ((XG -- A and B speak at the same time)) A. ...If one has absolutely no reason of any kind, or if there are such i reasons, I would like to hear these reasons. B. Really, for me there is absolutely no reason of any kind, no wish of any kind to tell you lies (nepravdu) and to hide something. A. But after our conversation of today, the first, I can tell you 6 che tah straight out C(that it is)) my impression that you probably must ; think very, very much before we really. will come to a common. _ agreement and find a common language . Because I have come not ((just)) to spend time and not to busy myself with nonsense. I do not want to say that what you said today is nonsense or lies, etc.; a part of what you said today, etc., is the truth and re absolutely no one will deny it. But a mumber of moments of which you have spoken, etc., one cannot ALBUS SMBH UNH + Rinpenrsetuniteisetpimemeaemmmenttemcnictrnt Rett, cote wade aso
14-00000 ote nte piieeoin cB eENRbRR Eats dan aris ter ten-r emcees Se mtn Aaeitnbttes 8 N ons RUN CTC ° You are frec to have any opinion. I want to say that if you say, ‘You are free", etc., of course, I i . { am free, but I do not want to think this way (tak), as I want.... 4 H t ((interrupts)) I do not want you to think.... ((3G; A and B speak at the same time.)) If we ((have)), for example, somevhere a question arises, a question arises, etc., some kind of nisunderstanding, as, say, with regard to the Personnel Department or with SAYCHENNO there and others, etc., I would wish that the person who has worked in Moscow in the Organs of the KGB, as he says, for 11 years, would give me a more or less plausible explanation, ((other)) that that which he has given ne. We are at the greatest impasse. emer As I said, it ((is)) so simple. We can continue our conversation for quite a long time and I can tell you directly that [ am here, really, I want to establish the truth. Where there is a lie or for some reason you have found it necessary to say other than what you wish or ((other than)) waat is ((so)) in fact, you can, without any fear, say that....  . a . i ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)}) | ...Where you are inclined to be in such a position, as ((that in - which)) you began today, and not give more or less plausible : | explanations on a number of questions, I think that.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) 4 i ed Ls peeved Pr een, ne Dee i a 2 * N ‘3
14-00000 memeceend omnianetnferntri Ey owsioinn Peny think (schitat*) thet {feve tied to you; ‘ telling you the truth, then why do you talk witha se. If you think so. A, I already have emphasized that much of what you have said is plausible. B. Well, so == Y have not lied (sovrat') te you, I have not lied (solgat'}; not at all. Too bad you are this way (Naprasno Vy tak). Well, what, then. A. I think it is not necessary to be upset (nervnichat'), to take offense, etc. B. What offense. ((XG; A and B speak at tie same time .)) A, I you really are inclined.... | B. I really ((am so)) inclined, and I really wanted.... A. ...Some kind of help, that I would help clean up this case (delo), in which there is so much dirt, etc. I think that you must think (({about this)) today and decide. We Puan Oreste Rete tte Orca nM Perhaps you yourself will begin to tell another story (tema) tomorrow. . ben B. Good~by . Good-by . vant be stems serene a arr? * Sie 1M Renton sane San drar ans eerie th 0 Ls e % SRE OUEST oD ate " 4