478-10002-10093 JFK Assassination System Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY: ROCKCOM RECORD NUMBER: _ 178-10002-10093 RECORD SERIES: SCHWARZER-MANFREDI FILES AGENCY FILENUMBER:  S-M (IV-EE) RICHARD HELMS (3 OF 3) - Document Information ORIGINATOR: ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION FROM: TO: TITLE: DEPOSITION OF RICHARD HELMS DATE: 04/24/1975 PAGES: 35 ‘ SUBJECTS : WARREN COMMISSION SHAW, CLAY OSWALD, LEE, TRIP TO MEXICO OSWALD, LEE, FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE OPERATION MONGOOSE NOSENKO NEW ORLEANS JOHNSON, LYNDON GARRISON, JIM FERRIE, DAVID CUBAN EXILES CIA . ASSASSINATIONS, DIEM WARREN, EARL ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES DOCUMENT TYPE: DEPOSITION CLASSIFICATION: — Top Secret RESTRICTIONS: 1B CURRENT STATUS:  Redact 07/01/1993 DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : “COMMENTS : tt v9.1 Pages 371-403, plus cover and contents page, of longer deposition. 108 HW 50955 DBocld:322704969 Page i Date: 8/27/20)
~ 178-10002-10093 . Se OM GEN ACTIVICTERS lof 2. Deposition of: RICHARD iecn nnn ern) a oa Thursday, April 24, 1975" AUWdaIT QUOI °a GIWYISD AHL WOYA AdODOLOHA “_WASHINGTON, D.C. FAIRFAX, VIRGINIA 4055 Chain Bridge Rd., 22030 te 410 First Street, S.E., 20003 Phone | . TQ p iN : | _ Phone (202) 544-6000. , , (703) 273-2400 HW 50955 Docld:32204969. Page 2
ne TOP SECRET ° . = 2 | CONTENTS —“ 8 2 | Deposition of: EXAMINATION. BY COUNSEL FOR THE 3 ~ COMMISSION d 3 t. _ _ 2 Richard McGarrah Helms 194 & 4 . (Resumed) , 5 (AF TERNOON SESSION - 297) 6 . 7. , 3 8 g rg we i. B {Oo 10 [m 14 11 | : EXHIBITS Ps Q a 12 || NUMBER . FOR IDENTIFICATION g 2 ~ henner emma < ; a 13 || Helms 1 225 < 14 || Helms 2 . 225 bas fe) 15 || Helms 3 . 226 16 | Helms 4 | | | 227 17 | Helms 5 os | 227 18 Helms 6 | ; . ae 236 . 19] Helms 7 ' 24g AB 29 | Helms 8 , 3 248 § ‘91 || Helms 9 . oo 250 2 29 || Helms 10 : | 252 ul ; : a 23 || Helms 11. 258 ce 34 24 || Helms 12 - 264: 2 e5 || Helms 13 270 TOP SECRET HW 50955 DBocld:322704969 Page 3
mbh 2 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL ~ 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 100 11 LZ 13 14 15 16° 1? 18 19 20 al 22 ae) 24 25 Doctda: 323704969 Page 4 371 TOP SECRET had done by having the liaison officer come back and forth. and my recollection is that I advocated that we just sort of wait it out and see what happened. MR. OLSEN: Did it enter into your thinking in that connection, Ambassador, that little could be done by attempting to compel Mr. Hoover. to do anything in any event? | THE WITNESS: I didn't think there was a chance of Attorneys General being able to persuade him to reverse himself. MR. ROETHE: Do you want to go into a different area now? | MR. OLSEN: Yes. . MR. ROETHE: I will sort of rest my thought here for a few minutes. 7 BY MR. OLSEN: Q Are you acquainted with the general subject of the handling of a defector by the name of Nosenko? A Yes. | Q Did. Nosenko defect. to the United States at the time you were the DCI? | | A I have forgotten exactly what my job was when he. defected. Could you give me the date when he defected? MR. ROETHE: I believe it was in 1965. I think it was just before you -- THE WITNESS: Became Deputy Director? TOP SECRET sa
meh 3 TOP SECRET) zn ¢o¢ MR. ROETHE: Yes. oO a ~ a 2 . : Fe . THE WITNESS: Because I didn't become Director until : ° 1966, I believe. ° * 4 MR. ROETHE: This was in 1965. 5 BY MR. OLSEN: 6 Q When was it that you became Deputy Director? ? A ‘I think it was in April 1965. 8 Q In any event, you are acquanted with that whole 9 +. a Situation -- 10 A Yes, il QO ~~ are you not? 2 le : A Yes, I am. . < < , , : : . be is Q Who specifically within the Agency had charge of the = 14) initial handling of Nosenko? is A Normally, defectors were handled by the Domestic 16 Contact Division of the Office of Operations, but it seems 1” to me that this fellow was given a special treatment all his 18 own and I don't recall who it was that did have him in 9 19 custody, whether it was the Security Office, the Counter- r 20 intelligence Staff. I just honestly don't recall. oO 2 a1 Q Well, would it be of any help if I suggested S ‘221 to you that the Office of Security was actually in charge of 2 8S his confinement? i . 2 8 24 OA That is what I was wondering. uw 1 fo) . : 3 25 Q But that the Counterintelligence Staff was the TOP SECRET | HW 50955 Docld:32204969 Page 5
mbh 4° Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 450955 “10 Li 12 13 14 | 15 16 1? 18 19 |] 20 21 22 23 24 ae) TOP SECRET - 373 Agency that directed what was to be done with him and conducted the interrogations of him and specified the condi- . i : tions: under which he was to be kept, and so on? A Right. Q Does that refresh your recollection? A That helps a great deal because he was held down in the installation we have here some miles from Washington for quite some months while an effort was being made to find out whether he was a bona fide defector or not a bona fide defector and one of ‘the complicating factors as I recall it was that he had made some sort of statement to the FBI when he arrived in this country that he was going to become a part of the Warren. Commission report and we could not seem to ascertain clearly enough that the fellow was what | he claimed to be. and, therefore, the statement might have been contaminated and might have affected the conclusions of the Warren Commission. So I think this case went on for a long time in our efforts to get all of this sorted out. But IT remember this was important enough that I sought a conversa- tion with the Chief Justice who was Chairman of the Warren - Commission and talked to him, you know, one afternoon -~ I don't know if it was morning or afternoon but I talked to him in some detail about this matter privately so that the Warren Commission would not necessarily be misled by this man's testimony which we were not able to vouch for. TOP SECRET ‘Dbocld:32704969 Page 6
mbh 5 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 HW 50955 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 10 Li 12 13 14 7°15 16. 1” 18 19 20 21 22 25 pA 25 TOP SECRET 374 ze) What was it that Nosenko testified about or told the FBI that he had a relationship with the Warren Commission? A I have forgotten. I am sure it is all in the Warren Commission records and I have forgotten the precise details of it. It had something to do with Oswald's time in the Soviet Union. MR. ROETHE: Isn't it true that the material was never put into the Warren Commission, that you were successful | in convincing them to leave it out? THE WITNESS: That was my impression. MR. ROETHE : This is in fact a memorandum you prepared for the records, isn't it, on your talk with the “Chief Justice and that is dated June 24, 1964? THE WITNESS: Well, if it was June 1964, then Nosenko must have defected before that. MR. ROETHE: I guess you are right. You are right. BY MR. OLSEN: Q° In June of 1964 your position with the Agency was what? | A I. would have been then the Deputy Director for Plans. | OQ Did you immediately succeed Richard Bissell? A Yes. 1 was his Deputy and then I succeeded him. Yes, That is certainly my signature and it confirms that- ever I can recall about this. TOP SECRET DoclTd:32204969 Page 7
oe - TOP SECRET 3... ibh 6, . 375 3 Q Can you tell us what your impressions were as to ; 7 the justification of the Agency in retaining for such an : ° extended period of time the physical custody and person of f 4 | | Mr. Nosenko? . 5 oo, . . A We were simply trying to establish his bona fides. 6 one way or the other. We took a very long time and had a a very hard time doing it for reasons, detailed reasons which 8 ‘I don't recall, but I certainly remember that this was a 9 very difficult case for us. I even believe we went down to 10 talk to Mr .Katzenbach when he was. the. Deputy Attorney General ‘ ii in an effort to see if there was any way we could get assist- 3 Ae ance Erom the Department ‘of Justice about what our responsi- : _ ode bilities or our authorities or anything else where in the 5 14 || case of a defector who put himself in our hands who might be 18 a spy on the United States and what we could do to somehow 7 get this whole thing sorted out. Needless to say, the i | Department of Justice wasn't able to help us. Since we. had 18) the responsibilities for. handling defectors in this country 8 19 and we also had the responsibilities for establishing their 5 : 20 bona fides, this was the reason that he was held for so long. 2 el We tried various things. I. remember that I asked one of my ‘ Re Deputies who was then Admiral Rufus Taylor who had been ; 23 Director of Naval Intelligence before,to spend full time : a4 attempting to sort out this case, see what we should do next : 25 about it, how we could get it regularized, et cetera. rt TOP SECRET HY 50955 DBoctd: 32704969 Page 6
nbh 7 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL HW 450955 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 10 ll le 13 14 “15 16 1? 18 19 20 el Re 25 24 25 TOP SECRET 376 just turned out to be a very difficult thing and I agree that he was kept an inordinate amount of time. Q Was it your feeling that there was just simply no satisfactory provision of American law to handle this kind of case? An There really is not, sir. Q And that was your feeling at that time? A Yes. And I don't know of any even now. Q' Did you feel that the Agency had in good faith exhausted all alternatives that appeared to be open to it? A Yes. I really thought so. We spent a lot of time on this case. | | Q To try to find a legal or proper way to handle it? A That is right. Proper solution to it. Q Was it the conclusion of the Agency that Mr. -Nosenko just simply could not be released? A That is right. If he was a Russian spy then we just found ourselves not in a position to be able to certify ' that he was not. @) . Wasn't there some procedure chat was available to the Government of the United States with respect to deporting him if his bona fides couldn't be determined ina reasonable period of time? Q ° I don't know whether this device has ever been used. I am not familiar with it. TOP SECRET DocTd: 32204969 Page 9
mbh 3 Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 WARD & PAUL WW 50955 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 el 22. 23 24 RO. - TOP SECRET 377 © BY MR. ROETHE: Q I take it, if you deported him you would be placing “his life in considerable danger. | A There was always that problem. You know, I don't think we have ever deported any defectors no matter how much z \ of a nuisance and pain in the neck they have been. The only ones that have gone back are the ones that asked to go back. Q Do you recall who was made privy to this particular arrangement under which Mr. Nosenko was being held? Was the White House privy. to this? A : oh, I couldn't -- Q Was the Congress privy to it? A I wouldn't have. thought so. I don't remember ever discussing it with the Congress. me) You do recall discussing it with the Attorney General? A Yes, the Deputy Attorney General, he was at that time. Qo Was -he told of the specific conditions under which Mr. Nosenko was being held?. A I really don't remember all the details of the session at that time, whether there were some other gentlemen with me and we had just a general discussion of this case. Q Were you aware of the specific conditions under - which he was being held? TOP SECRET Docld:32204969 Page 10
mbh 9 WARD & PAUL HW 50955 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 10 ill 12 13 14 15 16, 1” 18 19 20 21 ae 20 24 25 TOP SECRET 378 A Yes. BY MR. OLSEN: Q What was the purpose of specifying such extremely Spartan conditions for his confinement? | A I believe ‘the feeling was being a Russian intelli- gence officer that the fact that it was not going to be all that comfortable might lead him over a period of time to be more honest with us than he had apparently been up to that time. This was a very difficult case. I think there were two or three people who had the most intimate knowledge of it on an almost daily basis and I would have no trouble with whatever testimony they gave you. I. just don't remember all these details. | Q So that the reason as you understood it and the reason you approved these highly Spartan conditions under whic he was held in solitary confinement, with. no communications with whatever, no radio, no television, no newspapers, nothing to read, one bare light bulb in a very small cell, with almost no opportunity to see outside, all of these con- ditions were designed for the purpose of exerting mental pressure on him to come clean? A That was my understanding of the reasons it was done this way. Q Have there been, to your knowledge, Ambassador, any other instances in which defectors or others have been ‘TOP SECRET DocTda:323704969 Page 11
-abh 1 HW 50955 Phone (Area 202) 544-6006” WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.c. 20003 10 il 12 135 14 15. 16 1? 18 19° 20 al Re 20 24 25 Doclda:32304969 Page 12 T | OP SECRET . accorded similar treatment. by the Agency? A ° Well, there was one bad case, I don't know when’ it was, Many, many years ago, when some Agency interrogator was interrogating, I think it was some Russian or r think it was -~ I don't know whether it was a Russian or a Balt. or somebody who got carried away and actually was physically abusive to this individual. And as soon as that came to my attention, that was not only stopped but the fellow who was responsible for it was fired. And it was —— Q Was this at a period of time when you were DDP? A It must have been or even before that. "Maybe I was Chief of Operations. I can't remember. But it was a long time ago. Q Did this occur inside the United States? A Yes, and it was made abundantly clear at that time to everybody that nobody was going to be manhandled any more forever. Q Is that the only instance -— A Only instance. Q -- instance in which you know that happened? LA That I recall, yes, and I don't even recall the year it happened. Q Do you remember the name of the person involved? A. No, I do not. I think it could be ascertained without too much difficult. TOP SECRET
mbh' 11 | | | TOP SECRET 380 : Q Was any personal injury inflicted on the individual? s a _ A. No. He didn't die of it, wasn't crippled, but it g 9 was just they manhandled him some. i 4 - Q Was ita matter of losing one's temper or systematic 5 torture? | 6 UL. A I don't know. I think this fellow just exceeded ? himself and exceeded his authority and thought by using some 8 force he would get some kind of confession out of this fellow. 9 Anyhow, I disapproved it and I don't remember the details. 10 Q Has there been any instance that you know of in 11 your entire career with the Agency, Ambassador, in which 4 Le a defector, an employee, an agent, an operative connected wit | 13 the Agency, has been killed? : 14 OB I know of none. 15 Q- By the Agency? 16 ao A I know of none. I recall none. 17 Q or at the behest of the Agency because of his being 18 a security risk or a traitor? : 9 19 A Non, sir. I know of none. 8 _ ; 20 Q Are you acquainted with a former employee of the Q . . 8 al CIA by the name of Copeland? é 22 | A Who? | ui ; ie 25 “ Q Copeland. ; 4 A Miles Copeland? & , 3 25 re) - ‘Miles Copeland. ~ TOP SECRET HY 50955 Docld: 32204969 Page i3
mbh 1 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000” WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 i Le 13 14 15 16 L? 18 19 | 20 el Re 23 24 25 DoclTd:32204969 Page 14 381 TOP SECRET A How could I have avoided him. Q In a fairly recent book called "Without Cloak and Dagger", Mr. Copeland describes a category of situations in which penetrators, defectors, that is, defectors from the United States, people who have furnished sensitive information to foreign governments, disposed of with extreme prejudice, the implication being that they are killed, and that this is a practice that is employed by the Agency from time to time. | 7 | A I do not believe Mr. Copeland. Q Do you know of any such instance occurring within the Government of the United States? OA I do not. Q What is your impression as to the source of such information and representations by Mr. Copeland? — A Mr. Copeland is a fancifier. What is more, he. is a liar. What's more, he is one of the most dishonest son of a bitches I know. re) Is it your impression, then, that this matter is just a figment of his imagination? | A - That is my distinct impression. Q Was his departure from the Agency anything that you had something to do with? A No. I think he quit to go to work for some oil oil company in the Middle East. It is only in. recent years TOP SECRET
bh 13 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000. { WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 __ HW 450955 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19° 20. £1 pe Ro 24 29 a passage at arms. I had with him at dinner in Georgetown. TOP SECRET that he has become a novelizer, fancifier, a general expert in. London on the BBC on intelligence. And he is just full of baloney. y Q You aren't equivocating on that subject at all with us, are you? A Not at all. Sometime privately I will tell you about some years ago. I must say -- can we go off the record just one second? | Q Sure. | (Discussion off the. record.) BY MR. OLSEN: o | 9 I would like now to turn to the matter of the relati ships between: the. Agency and the!:;Warren Commission in connection with. this study of the assassination of President Kennedy. I take it that the Nosenko case was at least one ° AdWdaTT qaod “asa Twaa5 aHL NOws AdOOOLOHd instance in which the Chief Justice was briefed on a matter that was not covered in a general briefing or presentation to the Warren Commission as a whole, is that true? A Yes. Q Was the ‘Nosenko matter also one that was not presen or investigated by the staff of the Warren Commission? A I don't remember any more but I don't think it was. I just don*t know. I just honestly don't remember. Q What was the -- - TOP SECRET Bocld: 32204969 Page 15
tbh i4 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ul 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 R4 25 the staff some way. _know whether John McCone ever talked to him privately about TOP SECRET A I mean, they must have had something to do with it because the statements’ made that the FBI had to come to the Commission in. some form or other must have gone through Qa What I am asking about was did the staff of the Warren Commission ever have access to CIA personnel or us] 1s records relating to the Nosenko matter? — . ‘ . . Q A I don't think so. I don't -~ it is not my impression/§ So < but this is sometime ago now and for the record -- if the. a . . fe) records show differently I would like to be corrected but I * ane 3 4 don't know. os Q Q I am just asking for your best recollection. 3 A I don't recall it. : id Q Were there other matters, Ambassador, relating to nj the work of the Warren Commission which were of a similar nature, that is, where the Chief Justice was briefed ona matter but it was not revealed to the Warren Commission as a whole or the staff? A I don't know, Mr. Olsen, of any others. I don't something or anybody else from the agency. I don't recall talking to him about any other matters. That is Chief Justice Warren. ‘I don't believe I ever saw him on another . occasion privately. Q What position did you occupy within the Agency TOP SECRET Docld:32204969 Page 16
bh 15 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000- 10 di 12 { WARD & PAUL 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 during the period of 1960 and 1961? TOP SECRET A 1960 and 1961 -- MR. ROETHE: That is leading up. to the:Bay of Pigs. THE WITNESS: 1960, 1961. I would have been the Chief of Operations. In other words, sort of the No. 2 man in the Deputy Directorate for Plans. | BY MR. OLSEN: Q ‘This was immediately behind Richard Bissell? A Yes. | | Q And you stayed in that position, then, until 1964, did you say? A No. Q Or 1965. A I thought. that Bissell left in 1962. Q | Oh, he did. About February 1962. a: Then, I would have become the Deputy Director for Plans at that time. Q You were then in those two positions as Director : of Operations? A Chief of Operations it was called. Q Chief of Operations, and the Deputy Director for. Plans was well acquainted with the entire operation on a _ broad basis involving the Bay of Pigs, the planning leading. up to it? A No, not necessarily. The Bay of Pigs was Mr. TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32204969 Page 17 “ad GTwad5 FHL HOY AdODOLOHAa
mbh 16 Hiv WARD & PAUL 50955 Phone (Area 262) 544-6000 410 First Street, $.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 10 11 12 13 14 15: 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 TOP SECRET Bissell's work on that. I didn't have hardly anything to do with the Bay of Pigs; There were other things to be done in the Directorate for Plans besides the Bay of Pigs and that was his particular baby and I stayed out of it. Q. I see. So that -- was. this true, then, all the way .% up until. the time he left the Agency? o4. Sate | KAWAGIT GuOd *Y GIwagS AHL Woua AaODOTOHA “A Well, after the Bay of Pigs was over, I don't know what -- how long it was that he stayed on after that. Let's see. The Bay of Pigs was in what, the spring? Q ' April 1961. A And how long did he stay on? Q About ten months. MR. ROETHE: Not quite a year. 1 BY MR. OLSEN: Q- Did you take over any role from Mr. Bissell with respect ta the followup to the’ Bay of Pigs after that disaster? . | A Well, after I became Deputy Director for Plans there were all these ongoing operations about Cuba which we covered yesterday with -- who was it -- Mr. Belin went into this in great detail about the Mongoose Operation and all that business, the assassination theories and-how this might be done and that might be done. We spent a long time . nd on that yesterday afternoon. Q Well, you were acquainted, then, with the fact that TOP SECRET Docld:32204969 Page 18
bh 1Y Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 LO 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 R4 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 TOP SECRET 386.6 7 after the Bay of Pigs venture there continued to be a. very substantial amount of CIA activity among the Cuban exiles and other Cuban emigres in the southern part of the United - States? A Oh, yes. We had a big station in Miami and there ~ was big pressure from the Kennedy Administration, erom President Kennedy himself and the Attorney General, et cetera, to upset the. Castro regime. No question about that. I mean the records are just copious on that. The Government: records should be. I don't know where all the Mongoose records are, whether they were kept in the Department of Defense or here, but there were certainly lots of records. 9 well, the. Agency. was very>much involved, then, in that effort. of. the Kennedy Administration? | A .Yes. Qo. And the Agency continuéd to sponsor and finance and help organize Cuban groups, revolutionary groups, anti-Castro groups in the southern United States? | A Yes, certainly. | Q Were you at that time acquainted, then, with the fact that a great many Cubans or Cuban-Americans were involved in these CIA organizations? A Was I aware of this? ; id Q Yes. A  £Yes. TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32204969 Page 19 AdOSOLOHd Givaas AHL Nowa
eG oD ie te OS Ee @ bh 18 =] 3 y . ¥ Q Were you aware of the fact that these Cuban groups om 2 : . | : : g and individuals largely became aware of the fact that these & 3 ; . ° were CIA operations? : 4 . . : A Well, the way you put the question ~- 6 Q Answer the question any way you would like, 6 . qualify it or ~~ ? ; | ; 7 m A Sure. I just was -- what I was trying to get at was 3 8 _ that this effort at the time that I believe you are referring Q oe rg 9 to was almost a Government-wide effort. The FBI was involved. . - 10 oe gg a a 8 The Immigration and Naturalization Service was involved. % ii The Customs was involved. The Coast Guard was involved. The a 3 ie Army was involved. I believe the head of the Mongoose Task : a ~ 15 Porce was sitting over in the Pentagon. In other words, it lw] < ; a 3 14 was such a coordinated Government effort on this problem that [ ray 15 I don't know what the impression of the Cuban emigres in 16 Miami was in those days, whether they thought -- 1” Q Was the State Department also involved? 16 “A. Yes, sir. I think they helped out with an interro- 9 19 gation center down there, and so forth. o ° ; ; . £0 Q So you don't have any impression as to whether the ¢ | & él Cuban-Americans were invovled in these organizations, were z a . = 22 identifying themselves with the United States Government in ul . a . z 235 general or the CIA specifically? voy & - _ ae g 24 A No, I really don't know. I think they were almost: *| ° : ‘ 25 all Cuban emigres, weren't they? They hadn't had time to. TOP SECRET 2 HW 50955 Docld:327204969 Page 70
n Hiv 19 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 50955 ‘10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el 22 £0 24: 25 Docld:32204969 Page 21 IOP SECKEI become U.S. citizens. Most of them were pretty fresh out of Cuba. Q Most ofthem had left Cuba in 1959 or 1960? A Somewhere, or were even coming out at the time this was all going on. Q Were you acquainted at that time -- I am talking fron the time you took ‘over as Deputy Director for Plans’ in 1962 -- with the fact that there was among these Cuban emigres a high level of hostility to Fidel Castro and the Castro government? A That was my impression. Q Were you.also aware of the fact that there: was a - high degree of interest in disposing of Castro and his administration among these people? A I think there was a high degree of interest on the FI G04 ‘A GIVaAD FHL Nowa AaODOLOHA part of the U.S. Government for changing the Government of Cuba. No doubt about it. | Q Was there also a high degree of interest in that same objective on the part of the..Cuban. emigres? A Well, I had always - thought so because most of the. emigres that were in Florida at the time had fled from ‘Cuba because they were anti-Castro. They obviously would like to have gotten back under a more benevolent government and resumed their life in their own country, so I think “most 0 them were rather dedicated to the cause ‘of upsetting the caste] TOP SECRET _ :
ibh ‘20 Phone (Area 202) $44-6000 10 11 12 13 i WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 25 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 2) “of 1962 and thereafter a great deal of talk among the Cuban ‘government. Whether the Cuban exiles in-Miami were talking _I. don't recall specifically. I just recall that during this . in Cuba, to do what we could to agitate the Castro. government, _after talking to the Attorney General at one point which up to that point. I mean, that is one of the exhibits in 22 | - yesterday's testimony when Mr.Belin was here. TOP SECRET | government. Q Do. you know whether there was during this period emigres of plans to assassinate Castro? A I don't know about plans to assassinate him. An awful lot of suggestions were made all through this Governmen about how one got rid.of Castro, how one got rid of his about assassination plots or were trying to work things out. period there was a major effort made to carry out. sabotage and all kinds of plans and theories and options were put down and discarded or tried or whatever the case might be. A lot of theories were enunciated which weren't practical. There was a great deal of effort being put into this. I AUVdGIT Guod °-u aITwuao FHL Nou AdOOOLOHd believe they showed me a memorandum yesterday which I wrote indicated very clearly the dissatisfaction of the President and the Attorney General with the success of the efforts Q Now, after President Kennedy was assassinated in November 1963, and after it became known to you that the individual, Lee Harvey Oswald, was believed very broadly to: TOP SECRET HW 350955 Docld:32204969 Page 22
mh 21 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 ~ { WARD & PAUL HW 50955 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 10 Ll 12 13 15 16 17 L8 19 20 21 | 22 23 24 25 - President Kennedy was a retaliation | by Oswald against the “I don't even remember what time it was. I heard him say in IVP SECKEI have done the shooting, that Oswald had had some activity in the Fair Play for.Cuba Committee or one-man operation in New Orleans, in that direction, that there were at least reports that he had attempted to penetrate the anti-Castro > groups in New Orleans and possibly elsewhere, did anything get suggested to you ~~ did you hold any conversations with anybody about the possibility that the assassination of activity, the talks and plans to assassinate Castro? A No. I don't recall discussing that with anybody. I don't recall the thought ever having occurred to me at the time. The first time I ever heard such theory as that enunciated was in-a very peculiar way by President Johnson. my presence -- I don't know that the. comment was. even directec at me -~ that because President Kennedy had been responsible ‘for the death of the president Diem of Vietnam that this was why President Kennedy had been shot himself, and I couldnit ‘see how the two. things were even remotely connected, plus the fact that I think it would be pretty hard to demonstrate that President Kennedy assassinated Diem or shot him or anything like that. Maybe he put into effect the course of events but that is the only connection with the assassination I ever heard but I never heard of retaliation by attempts on Castro! s life. TOP SECRET DoclTd: 32204969 Page 23 qdod “ad GIwugS FHL WOWd AdODOLOHA
TOP SECRET bh 220 _ . acest! BQ we g re 1 $ Q I am not asking you about a story, Ambassador. I a 2 , & am asking you whether you ever had thoughts run through your < 3 g mind as to whether or not there was a relationship between & 4 . . Oswald's contacts with the Cubans and his support for the , Castro government, his attempts in September 1963 to get a 6 : oo. | | passport to Cuba, to travel to Cuba, his attempts to penetrate a anti-Castro groups. Did the connection ever enter. your 3 8 , , mind? Ve 9 "my A I don't recall its having done so. 1B 10 , K Qo Was this matter of the Agency's or the United | 11 ; | : ad ‘States Government's plans and efforts and attempts to Q 3 assassinate Castro ever discussed with anybody from the a .Warren Commission? s 14 | . A You say attempts to assassinate Castro? 15 Q. Yes. 16 . , A Which attempts were these that you are referring 17 to? 18 , , Q Well, I assume that the matter was gone into at some 3 19 length yesterday, that you indicated that you didn't. o 8 ; ; 20 + as . eo 3 A There was some indication, et cetera, but it is e not clear to me from the question you are asking me: --.I. am z 2 . . : : . * R not. fencing with you. I am just trying to answer your 4 : ‘ 7 3 ' question. I am just trying to find out what you are saying. . & é z4 that these -- there were attempts to assassinate Castro. Castifo so - < 20 still seems to be alive and well even today and what I am not TOP SECRET HW 350955 Docld:327204969 Page ?4
mbh 23 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 . WARD & PAUL that they were ever carried out to the extent; or even attracted Castro's attention. I have no evidence of this. inquiries from the Warren Commission. 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 TOPSECRET = =—— sis | Clear about is that. having said that there were these attempts, attempted or did they ever get any place that they would have At least, it was never brought to my attention. Maybe it was brought to.other's attention but not to my attention. Q I take it, then, that you never felt that it was necessary or desirable that anybody from the Warren Commissio ever ben. advised, told, about the fact that there had been any plans developed or efforts undertaken to assassinate Castro. A I didn't discuss it with the Warren Commission. Q Did you ever participate in any conversation with any other official within the Agency concerning the desira- bility or non-desirability of revealing that matter to' the Warren Commission? | A " Nobody ever mentioned it to me. And I wasn't «| Director of the Agency. I wasn't deciding what was. going to the Warren Commission and what wasn't. I was just answering Q Did you ever hold some conversations with either Mr. Harvey or Mr. Bissell about the desirability of briefing Mr.*McCone on what was going on? | | A We covered that yesterday. I don't recall this conversation that is alleged to have taken place. I don't TOP SECRET HW 450955 Docld: 32204969 Page 25
bh 24 ( Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 n 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 17 18 19 21 . 82 23 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 recall it at all. 20 25: TOP SECRET Q In any event, to the best of your knowledge, nobody from the Warren Commission was ever advised that there had ever been any plans of the Agency or the U.S. Government to assassinate Castro? A I didn't talk. to the Warren Commission about it. I don't know whether anybody else in the Agency might have. | Q The prosecution that Was undertaken in New Orleans | _by District Attorney Jim Garrison of a man by the name of Clay Shaw -- A Yes. Q -- was a matter which was of some interest to the Agency, was it not? A Well, my recollection of Garrison is that Garrison was trying to subpoena me to come and testify in some trial in New Orleans. This is what attracted my attention to Garrison, plus his reiterated statements that the CIA was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy, and that was how I knew about Jim Garrison. I obviously followed in the papers about the Clay Shaw trial, and so forth, which I gather finally ran its course. I. forget what happened. Was Shaw exonerated? Q Yes. I believe he was acquitted; ‘if my:memory serves me correctly. Now, was there anything beyond the attempts of Mr. -- TOP SECRET WW 50955 Docld: 32704969 Page 26 ad "ad GTWYaIS AHL NOWI AdOSOLOHAd _
wh 25. Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 { WARD & PAUL fad 3 & ) a 5 3 ei & z 22 Wy 2 ae) 3 a a 24 5 2 € 25 HW 50955 Docld:32204969 Page 27 Garrison to subpoena you that was of interest to the Agency Shaw of any nature at all? _1OP SECRET in connection with that case? A Well, I don't -- Q And the general statements and allegations? A I thought the man was sick, Garrison. : always have thought he was sick. Q He alleged, did he not, that the Agency had connec- tions with a number. of different people, including somebody by the name of David Ferrir and Oswald and ‘Shaw? A I guess so, yes. 9 _ And others. A I guess so. Now that you mention them, these names are familiar to me. Q You undertook in connection with that case, did you not, to have the matter checked out thoroughly within the Agency? A Yes, sir. Q To determine whether there were any such connections}. Ay I believe so. I. believe so. ‘ Q Had the.Agency ever had any contacts with Clay | A ‘My recollection was that’at one time or other he was approached by the Domestic Contact Service for some | purpose. Was this correct? Somehow -- this will be in the records. Somehow I had the impression that -- you know what TOP SECRET
mbh 26 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 “11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 “15 16 “17 18 1g 20 21 a) 24 ' 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 PAV] ~ 25 HW 50955 Docld:322704969 Page 28 the -- Q ‘Yt do know the Domestic Contact Service is -- A Yes, and it seemed to me that at one time the. records showed he had been approached by them in some connection or other. Q Shaw was engaged in the import-export business, was he?” | A I don't remember what his business was. 1 remember he was a homosexual or something. Q ‘Was the Agency interested in preserving from dis- was but it certainly would have been a topic with the wild © TOP SECRET closure the fact that he had been contacted by the Domestic Contacts Service? A Bs don't recall, sir. I don't recall whether this ever became an issue one way or the other. - Q Did Garrison ever succeed in subpoenaing you? te ; ; H . ‘ be] A No. z . . = Q Was anybody from the Agency ever called to testify in that case? a A Not that I recall. Q Did the matter of the Garrison prosecution. of Shaw. interest the top officials of the Agency sufficient tohave it be the subject matter of morning conferences? A It might have been mentioned. I don't really | remember whether it was in a morning conference or where: it 4 TOP SECRET |
b 27 TOP SECRET 3 oo | | 3 assertions he was making. TI remember even watching him once iw . : on the television with my mother and he wassuch a convincing 4 son of a gun that I thought by the time it was over I had is] E ‘petter straighten my mother out about.my life, andl have haa conversations with various people from New Orleans about Garrison, through the years, like Eddie Hebert and Moon Landrieu, and so forth, so I have a pretty good fix on what kind of a character Garrison is. | Q Did the Agency have any contacts, according to the “studies you caused to be made within the Agency on that case, did the Agency have connections of any nature— whatever at any time with Lee. Harvey Oswald? RK Not that I ever heard of. I don't think that WARD & PAUL any examination that was made ever indicated. that anybody from the Agency had been in touch with Oswald. I have never seen one piece of paper to this effect. Q - and. did Mr.Belin go over with you “yesterday the. matter of the Agency's role in reporting on aspects of ‘Oswald's trip to Mexico City in September 1963? A L don't recall that he did yesterday. MR. HARDY: No, we. didn't go into that. THE WITNESS: But isn't that exhaustively covered in the Warren Commission -report? ‘BY.MR. OLSEN: 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 Q phere are aspects of ‘it that are not covered in: ) TOP SECRET WW 50955 DBoclad:32204963 Page 29
; TOP SECRET mbh 28 oe ‘Warren Commission report. OA Are there? I didn't realize that. Q As I gather kind of second-hand here within the f Phone (Area 202) '§44-6000 Commission's staff, the Agency had a bug in the Cuban Consulat¢ in Mexico City. | A I don't think that was true. ae . ; 4] Q Didn't the Agency pick up a telephone conversation A I thought that what happened was -~ I mean, look,’ | this is a long time ago, and I am sure that somebody would WOudd Ad be delighted to pull out the records on this but:my recollec ith the Mexicans had -a camera which photographed people going in and out of the at» they. had. in..corinéction with our over WARD & PAUL rad weMexeo® Cityaweentralized=telkephonestap.w Ss, and one of them was the. Cuban tappedvall” Embassy .but there was no bug in the Cuban Embassy that Ir AUWaGIT quoa=-u Giwago aHL ever recall. .Q t see. Well, then, I appreciate your straighten- , _ing me out. | A That is my best recollection. Q OK. This was a generalized telephone -tap?: A This is a pretty sensitive item but ‘for years the a the» Americans have been working on the Soviets, . adhe: Chinese, the Cubans; and so forth, through a very" large 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.c. 20003 £. telephone’ taps’doner-at»a central place. I mean, TOP SECRET WW 503955 Boold: 32204969 Page a0
tbh 29 Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 \ WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 ,@ 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 these aren't lines put on right there at the Embassy. They had been taken of people going into the Soviet Embassy and TO Pp SEC R ET | : “ : - ° ~ | are way back in a central location. Q. ‘And was it this that accounted for the fact that there was some later attempt to pick out a person who appeared to be an American going into the Soviet Embassy? A Yes. There was some photographs of-a man who has never been identified. Nobody has ever figured out who it was as far as I know. Time was spent endlessly. figuring out who this man might be. The FBI went over it, we went over it, everybody you can think of went over it arid as far as I> know, he has never been identified. Q How did it happen, as you recall now from the “ad GIwWugS AHL WOUYd AdODOLOHA investigations ‘conducted at that time, how did it happen that his picture got picked out of all the pictures that have it accompany this report to the FBI? kavddll auos | A I'm sorry. I have really forgotten what -- I think it was an FBI photograph, too, wasn't it? Weren't they the ones that made the photograph or picked it out or something, because they have an operation in Mexico, but I don't remember now just what the division of labor between the two organi- zations was. But in any event, let me get on with this. T ‘don't know why the photograph was picked out. I have no recollection any more, Q Ambassador, was there anything whatever relating TOP SECRET DoclTd: 32204969 Page 31
bh 30 penertees $ i . | | 3 to Agency actions in Mexico City or elsewhere in Mexico and a 2 , s connected with the trip by Lee Harvey Oswald there that was < 3 @ not revealed to the Warren Commission? 5 & 4 . . A ....Not that I am aware of, sir. Not that I am aware. 5 . of. 6 G * * Q Was there information that had been obtained from highly sensitive sources within the Soviet. Union relating 8 | a - | - to any involvement about Lee Harvey Oswald with the KGB or any other instrumentality of the Soviet Union that was not revealed to the Warren Commission? liye.  . _ . oT) A Not that I am aware. a mo 3 Q Is there anything at all, Ambassador, that, you know & . . 13 on . . . . . a of today relating to the investigation of the assassination 4 . . 14 of President Kennedy that was not fully and openly revealed 15 to the Warren Commission except the Nosenko matter which 16 was a matter on which the Chief Justice alone was briefed? 1? A Sir, I would like to answer your question by saying 18 that I was not the Director of the Agency at that time. I 8 19 was the Deputy Director for Plans and I was, theréfore, the g 20 recipient of many inquiries from the Commission to check Ey a1 out information overseas and do a variety of things in c Ze connection with the Commission's work. I thought we were 3 enormously conscientious in helping the Commission and I ’ . é a4 thought when it was all over we had done an.absolutely first- o . . : . 25 rate job and I do not recall any of these things that you TOP SECRET aq HY 50955 Bocld: 32704969 Page a2
bh 31 Hiv Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL. 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 50955 10 1 le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 al RR Bo a4 25 coming with the Commission because the President, President _than it did? It seemed to me they had a very good staff of TOP SECRET 400 mention having been held back. I thought we were very forth- Johnson at the time, wanted the Commission helped in every way possibile. We did all kinds of things to help them in é their work that we probably ordinarily would not have done. Q “Then, do I take it that your: answer would be that so far as you are now aware, there was nothing that was held back from the Warren Commission except the details of the Nosenko matter as to which the Chief Justice alone was briefed? A That is right. That was my distinct impression. Q Are you aware of any particular, Ambassador, “a GIWaaS FHL NOW AdODOLOHAa in which the Warren Commission did not fairly present to the AmBrican public the results of its investigation that had CIA aspects to it? A Not that I know of, sir. You know, I have been one of the ones that as these various books have come out and allegations made, and so forth, thought to myself, my God, how could the Warren Commission have done much more lawyers and they were..very conscientious and hardworking and the FBI helped, CIA helped, and everybody helped as far as I know, and I always thought the Warren Commission report - was probably first class. I haven't‘read it all, it is too - long. TOP SECRET Docld:32204969 Page 33
in 32) Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 Lo 11 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 295 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 £5 on this subject which we feel obliged’ to have made a. matter 24. TOP SECRET is Q Do I take it that your answer would be that you know of no matter that was not fairly revealed to the American public by the Warren Commission insofar as CIA aspects of that investigation are concerned? A Sir, if there was I am not aware of any. . Q There are, Ambassador, certain matters of this -- of record. It isn't that we are cross-examinng you from the standpoint of believing something different than you believe necessarily. | A Oh,.I. accept that. I want to give you the best answer I can. | Q Did you ever encounter or know of any information being turned up of Oswald having been in contact with an organization in New. Orleans or elsewhere that was-in effect being sponsored by the CIA? A I don't know. Q Such as the Cuban Revolutionary Front? A I don't recall. anything about this matter. Q And no records of any kinds were ever turned up indicating Oswald had contact with an Agency sponsored Cuban group? _ . ; vod A I don't know, Mr. Olsen. It may have been. It may . have been in the records. I just don't recall it. Q There has’ been some testimony that has been received TOP SECRET © WW 50955 Docld: 32704969 Page 34 IW Giwaas HL Woad AdosoLona
nn TOP SECRET AMWdGIT Gudod °Y aTwago gaHL HOUT AdODOLOHd oh 43) ; ' eres $ -1 3 by the Commission ~~ q 2 . ot ; ; A Is this the Rockefeller Commission? : ° Q yes. The Rockefeller Commission, in which an Agency, 7 * past. Agency official, has expressed the opinion that Premier ° | “Castro had a pretty effective: intelligence operation going in- ° ° this country among the. Cuban emigres. Would that accord a with your own impression? 8 | A I really don't know. 1 do know that the Russians — 9 have done what they can to improve the Cuban Intelligence 10 Service but how effective the Cuban Intelligence Service has 11 ‘been in its work in the United States I have no.way of knowing 5 1e Q Has this Agency within your knowledge, Ambassador, ‘ 1s ever been penetrated by a foreign intelligence agent? 5 14 A r don't know, sir. I hope not. We recognize that 19 we are target number 1 for the KGB. That has been told us 16 by various defectors. over the years we have done‘our level i” best to fend off efforts. We have identified what we thought 18 | were a couple of probes. .in this direction at various times. | 8 19 But if:the Agency has ever been penetrated I am not aware of 8 : £0 -it, although I have to say that anybody who is Director of ; el ‘the Agency every day when. he. walks:into the building wonders g ‘ Re whether if that is the day that somebody will be turned out 3 as that might be a penetration of the Agency, but I know of none. g a4 Q- Have there been any instances that you know of in mt ° : . . 25 whatever capacity you have had with the Agency in which a TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32204969 Page 35
2 : 1 debate has raged within the Agency as to whether a particular - : 2 employee is an agent of a foreign government? | é ° A Well, I think that, you know, as we were Saying © 5 —_ é 4 earlier, just this afternoon, from time to time there has been 8 a feeling that maybe that fellow might have been a recruiter 6 or this individual might have been, investigation is conducted m0 ? in an effort to see if this is the case. One hopes that the ig 8 investigation is good and ‘adequate enough to clear the | g 9 individual. We have used the polygraph wherein: there was . j 20 some question about. these things. We have: used all the ie i techniques that were reasonably available to us to try to Fi . Q “ le prevent this*happening and I don't know. There we are. < . : 1s MR. ROETHE: Were there occasions when you terminated |" a : : , . ie = (14 |. employees under your authority to terminate without any 1s question because you thought there may be. some suspicion that . 16 could not be eliminated? | | ivy. |THE WITNESS: I can't remember during my time as 18 Director this happening. I believe that before I became 2 19 Director there were a couple of cases that were of dubious : 20 validity about individuals who were thought possibly to i 21 | have had some unsatisfactory connections and were terminated, : ee but the case was never proved against them as far as I was i. : 25 aware. And I don't know of any cases that as Director I 7 : 24 terminated that way. At least I can't think of any. It woulda : _ 25 be very easy to ascertain this, though, and I wish you would. TOP SECRET HH 50955 Docld:32204969 Page 36