Silvia Tirado Interview Page 53. Tirado: -Hardway: Tirado: Hardway: Tirado: Tirado: Hardway: Tirado: Hardway: Tirado: Hardway: Tirado: Hardway: Tirado: Hardway: ‘Well, ‘he was present? I don't remember exactly. I think he was working for the, how you say that? I think he was in.a cam- paign. Against the drugs. Do you know when that would have been? No. | Do you know when he would have been a sympathizer for, with the Communist Party? I think it was before we got married. Being Communist, being I'm completely sure. policeman. All of that, it was after I meet him. Do you know why-- I mean before I meet him. Do you know why they asked you to keep quiet after the first interrogation? No, I don't. Did you ever attend a party where Lee Harvey Oswald was present? The party where Leé; no, I don't know that he attends some parties. The question was, did you ever attend a party where No. That's all I've got. on
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 54. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Just two brief matters and I promise we will end this verv.long questioning session. The questions which were just asked you about which languages he spoke, by Mr. Hardway, when the call was made to the Russian Embassy, what language was spoken there? Spanish. Did the Russians speak Spanish too? Yes. | | | Did at any point in that conversation Russian-speaking people get involved? Did anyone at the Russian Embassy speak Russian to you? I don't speak Russian. Well. I understand that. Did you at any point put Oswald on the phone and let him talk? No, no. The reason I'm asking of course is to try to jog your memory. Did he at any point in that transaction speak Russian? pid Oswald speak Russian that you recall? No. The second question, just to be suré that we've got your memory as accurate as we can on it, have you net spoken to Azcue at all since 1963?
Silvia Tirado Interview Page 55. Tirado: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Cornwell: That's something that I don't exactly remember. If he came once or if he was with his son, but I knew all about Fidel's and Azcue's conversations. So you do remember either talking to Azcue or his son about the Oswald trip? Not the Oswald trip, the Fidel, what he says. Be- cause Azcue was called by Fidel Castro in that day when the Cuban Ambassador sent my report. That's what I told you the other day. In the same day they speak to Azcue, Fidel, they spoke, they have a conversation, and then on the second day, that Sun- day present, they protest to Mexican Ambassador. You described to us earlier how the Ambassador filed a report. Did you ever see the report? “No. Do you know what was in it by any other means? To the best of your knowledge, it would at least have (Tape ends.) on
TAPE 3 Sylvia Tirado (Duran) Pace l. Cornwell: Okay. The first part of your memory is that, as I understand it, the Ambassador filed a report within three days or so after the assassination and your arrest, right? ; | Then you mentioned something about Fidel talking to Azcue is that correct? | | Tirado: Yes. | Cornwell: How did you learn that? | Tirado: That's what I don't remember. Cornwell: Okay. At any rate, what can you remember about the nature of that contact? Between Azcue and Fidel? Tirado: Fidel askedhim what happened exactly that day in the Consulate and Azcue tried to remember every-_ thing and he said what he knew, that Fidel was afraid of uh, if I was going to say something false to, because I was threatened by the police, and uh, Ascue says that no, that I was honest and I was not going to do anything false. That that was not the right thing, the truth, Cornwell: Okay. In other words, Fidel was worried about i i i 4 ft : ; i the possibility that you would say something against the Cuban Government? Tirado: Yes. pe Cornwell: And that's because you were a Mexican citizen, is SEA CH RAN NO CRON PRT EES Ra BOE TA at HIRES at
Sylvia Tirado Page 2. Tirado: And I was, . . .(asked Lopez how to translate) threatened. Cornwell: Okay. So he was afraid that the Mexican authori- ties might threaten you and that you might say something against the Cuban Government? Tirado: Yeah. Because the police many times told me, you have to say the truth. Remember that you have a little child. And. . .remember, you have a daugh- ter. And remember you have a daughter. All the time they were telling me this. Cornwell: Okay. Did you possess any information that might have incriminated the Cuban Government? Tirado: No. Cornwell: And you can't remember how it is that you learned about this questioning of Azcue by Fidel, is that right? Tirado: Yeah. Cornwell: Then, several years later, you had another conver- sation with either Azcue or his son, is that cor- rect? \ Tirado: Yes. Cornwell: Do you think it might have been Recle? Tirado: Could be. - Cornwell: Is that when you learned about his conversations with Fidel? Tirado: Yes. slpsrree
Sylvia Tirado Page 3. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: During that period of time, when you spoke to Azcue two or three years later, what if anything did he have to say about the assassination? What did he say? Yes. I don't know. When you believed you may have talked to him. Did he have any theories or speculation? I don't remember. I only remember the part that they were talking about me. Did he believe as strongly as you apparently do that the person who was on television and in the newspapers was the same man who went into the Con- sulate? Yes. I don't know about. television because he was not here. He was not on television here? No, no. Azcue’ was not here. I know, but I mean when you talked to him two or three years later. Did he say anything about that? No. I don't remember. Do you think for sure that the man who was on tele- vision was the man who came to the Consulate? Yes. _ The man who was killed. by Jack Ruby? Yes.
Sylvia Tirado Page 4. Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Tirado: Cornwell: Lopez: br 7-6-78 \ Did you see him being killed by Ruby on televi- sion? Yes, yes. Was there anything about him that looked different to you? No. It was black and white. So I couldn't see the color. But he looks like the one that I met. ! Guess that's all the questions and thank you again for being so patient with us and answering allof our endless questions. It is 9:15 p.m.
Mey: Bethe yo estat a Tae tins es Fea {| AZCUE / STATEMATS oh, ar, ‘ 4 ?
COMMITTEE SENSITHVE S) a 3 ta ry tx I. Identifving Information: Busebio Azcue Address Cuba Type Of Contact: Telephone Person . Ir. Summary of Contact: Ht fei ri AS) (D Q oO. 3 a D ad Qu (D Qu hy @) | A i Oo oy ! fa ze) Le rh fu ‘3 SONS a
mterviaw...cage 1 - - COMMITTEE SENS RWW. T + AY 7,7 ¢ : +7 aHeat + 7 = de % BLAKEY: FT wonder 15 you would state your name for tne ry o 0 9) nH Qu AZCUE: Mr.-Azcue - Eusebio Azcus. © + BLAKEY: How old are you? AZCUE: 66 years Old. BLAKEY: Are you now emploved? AZCUE: I am now retired. Ww ES A ts K Where were you formerly am ae) te oO kG ()) Ou “J e t io) O O 18) i) cr ry ci a ct t ie) 3 4 x ry £ AZCUE: I was formerly employed an architect and I was working until be Q Ww O ct @ fu is cl u) a Q * (b Qu te. ’ I \O ON ww “4 . A bd Km = O a} (pb hes ce) G Li 0) i; aed Q cv) ¥ Wed N Q 2 4 rd - (D i- ra rev) Ww cr cy D lo {a 5 ww ry fe) O uv ] 7 Ss BLAKEY: Where? AZCUE: Mexico Citv. BLAKEY: In that connection, do vou recail meeting Lee Harvey Oswald? AZCUE: Yeas. He came to us in order to apply for a visa to go to Cuba. BLAKEY: Could I show you a document then whicn is marked “Request for a Visa No. 779"? May ET ask vou if tnat is the copy of tne visa filled out by Lee Harvey Oswald? AZCUE: Yes. This is his signature. And this is his picture. The date is correct - September 27th. This visa SOMMITTEE SENSIS ' ' 1 ' 4
musebio Azcue Intarviaw...pagae 2 AZCUE: Yes, of course. I recall it quite well for I Ny nad to remember this meeting on several different occasions when many were trying to involve us in this assassination. He visited | the embassy on that date, September 27th, or a previous date to solicit a visa. BLAKEY: Would you remember the date of the first request? BLAKEY: And do vou remember the date of the second visiz?! AZCUE: Exactly the date on the apolication - September 27th. BLAKEY: Would you tell us exactly what hapvened the first t time he was with you? AZCUE: He applied for a visa and brought a paper | accrediting him as a member of the Communist Party of the American nations. Ze also brought documents acereditins nim as a member. of the Fair Play For Cuba, which was an association aiding Cuba at the time. He said ne was going to the Soviet Union but he wanted an intransit visa to visit Cuba for one or two weexs. BLAKEY: Do you recall what time of day it was when he came? 1 AZCUE: He came in the morning between 10:00 and 12:00 or 10:00 and 1:90. ae, 1 BLAKEY: Is there anything in your mind that fixes it a nour? fy ct ( i) fH rH) oO a w QO vi @
py {a 1v)) (o) 10) I O Je NN a (c (b bet J fal (D KK <! i (b = 'G fu QQ (D ul 4 . os at L . rienas in Cuba that rh on AZCUE: T told nim that 12 he ha would recommend him, the process would become expedited - would be expedited; but if not, the Cuban government would have to becin an investigation and I do not know exactly now long it would take. BLAKEY: What was Ais response? AZCUE: He began to get irritated. He also prought a book of Lenin with him just for show, which I did not like. A communist goes not need a book to show that he's a communist. He was somewhat upset already. He thought that we wera going to give nim the visa immediately. to ty r s > fo ct rn) an eal un @ { od a, > 43) i) fu ay "3 AZCUE: See, I told nim that if he had a visa to go =o Ye then left to go to the Soviet embassy. I don't really remember whether he went to the Soviet ambassy inat same das relate to me that the papers and documents that Cswald presented were legitimate. His marriage certificate stating that he was ad to a Soviet resident and nis documents that showec that fr- marr 1 t 4 7 ; on 5 aa - “ , i to give nim a visa. He said: "No." He said he nad to consuls ~ wea a et Moscow. At that time =I said: "Well, then, I nave to consult Pon toe)
Eusebdio Azcue Interview...page 5 BLAKEY: Did Oswald ever make any shone calls between the Cuban and the Soviet embassy? AZCUE: Not from the consulate. He visited the Soviat BLAKEY: Did he ever call the Cuban embassy from the be Soviet ambassvy? AZCUE: It was the Soviet consul that called me. BLAKEY: Could it be possible that he spoke to someone else in your embassy besides yourself? AZCUE: Sne is a Mexican lady, bux someone that the Cuban government fully trusts and also trusted by the consul that was going to replace me -- for I was getting ready to return to Cuba. If appears to me that Oswald came back to surprise me. He came back and told me that he nad alreadv been at the Soviet ambassy and that all nis vapers had baen considered legitimate. He thought that when ne statec that to me I would give him avisa. Then = told hin: "No, = have to consult Cuba." He then got very upset and called us bureaucrats. He t~ stated that that was bureaucracy, and at that point IT also got angry and asked him to leave. Then ne-left. BLAKEY 1a | b Q. "y (iD uy 1 fu ny be ct ry br Q (Db te U) y) Aw]
rm usebDio Azcue Interview...oage 7 Y AZCUE: Well, vou know, he La BLAKEY: Might you be able to remember anvthing else tha ne might nave said? AZCUE: No, he just got very upset when he did not get ‘the visa. BLAKEY: Did ne ever give you any indication of why he wanted to go to the Soviat AZCUE:: Yes. He said he wanted to go to the Soviet Union es) 16) Q (v G un @ ey (Dp wa fu mu u lready been there and that was nis place of apt 4 Soviet citizen - 3 fu t ' we uw ra [H+- bh (D c+ re) 1) ju also stated by w 0h) I Au ) i (@) (0 i (D and because he was a member of the Communist Party. , BLAKEY: Did he aver give you any indication o rh why ne wanted to go to the Soviet Union through Cuba? AZCUE: Yes, of course. Ue said that he wanted tc see our ravolution. He said he wanted to visit Cuba. de araw@re id y 7 3 ; I4 at 4 - 4 - + + ~ + z+ BLAKEY How Long did he indicate that ne wanted to stay f wanted to be there? AZCUE: A week or 15 days, or something to that effect. 4 , ndssible, more time. bh Wa. 2 Ww fu +s the visa. ft says two week BLAKEY: Could vou tell us the name of your secretary? t AZCUE: Yes, of course, Svilvia Duran. Now she is no Long Sylvia Duran for sne's now divorced and Duran was her husband's mame. Sne is very well known for sne had very serious proplams
ae) fu AQ (D wo Id with the Mexican authorities on account of this visit. fact, she was arrested. BLAKEY: Did vou ever have any conversations with her x + about her contact with Lee Harvey Cswald? AZCUE: I don't think she nad had any contact with him. She was just there. Mrs. 1) io ty ry) a} thy oO G He | Au \+- ct < ) 4 Yu) ct ry fu Ha Q @ had. not given Oswald the visa considering that his wife was a resident of the Soviet Union and that he, Oswald himself, nad peen a resident of the Soviet Union and that he had vapers showing that he was a member of the Communist Party. But I don't think she had any contacts with him. Mr. Azcue, cn Cswald's first visit? AZCUE: The secratary was there and also consul Mirabal nad become familiar with the papers and documents at the office For ne was getting reacy to replace me. STOKES: What is the name of the secretary? Ph STOKES: Could we nave the full name of the consul that was going to replace you? BN , but his last name was Mirabal. w STOKES: But at any rate, Lt was ne who ‘replaced you as ! j ty (D 9) t-- he < am J cr 0) tf I or on t — (D
Eusepio Azcue Interview...vacge 3 STOKES: And where is Mr. Mirabal. now? AZCUE: Here in Cuba. STOKES: You Mentioned thac Oswald brought some papers with him when ne first came to the ambassv. Did they nave anytning to do with Ais mempership in the Communist Party, vou said? AZCUE: Yes, I think so. Actually, though, I did not analyze them very carefully. STOKES: wave those documents nave been made a part of the application? AZCUE: Mo, no. They were sust like introduction lattars -- STCKES: So tnen there would be no other 'G 93) 'd @o ty W) le i connection with nis apolication cther than this ry) ‘Jd 'd | eee ie) fu ct te oO 0} D Ny (Dd ae) AZCUE: That was the only one. STOKES: Would there be any recording of the conversation between you anc Lee Harvey Oswald? AZCUE: We did not use recorders at that time. STOKES: Could vou tell us =the name of the Soviet consul whom vou spcke to? AZCUE: No. The consul was a very good friend of mine - 4 ch Pablo Yazco - but © don't think he was in charge of that at the y time. The man = spoke =90 was anotner whose name I really do not remember now. I just don't recall the name of the consul that replaced Pablo Yazco. So many names that just get lost in your memory. But in subsequent conversations with the Soviet ambass
HUSeDLO Azcue interview cage 19 -- mis papers and nis wife's ocasers. He lived in the States. STOKES: And then Oswald's second visit to your ambassy -- who would have been oresent? : AZCUE: The secratary - always the secretary - because AZCUE: I don't think he’ was there. I do remember that Sylvia was there, though. He was only learning. He understood no English and was not verv active at chat time. su STOKES: Did you at some time come into contact with Marin Oswald? AZCUE: Marina? You mean the wite? No, no, never. STOKES:, During the time that Oswald was at your ambassy and was angry, do you recall his saying anything at all about AZCUE: No, not in tne least. DODD: Just a couple of questions. (L) In Looking at tnis {v I O O _ $s ci ke: c ! | te ry (D i) I- hp N (D photograph -- if you wili take that we are going back a long time -- Do you recall if Lee Harvey Oswald was dressed in a tie and sweater like that? . Lf c AZCUE: No, ne was not. He nad. a suit on. ff aven remember the color of the suit. ft was a veryv’light plus
ty (ic n @ 10) rm O J N Qq fa {D bet J ct 0) hy te (b z "Ys fu Q 1) i bo AZCUE: Yes. S3ut as time goes by and you nave an idea of a face, vou know, and then...See the impression I got was that in verson he was thinner, his nose was more angular, angled, or aqguiline. His eyebrows were very straight. He had a very cold icok. It was a penetrating, cunning way Of looking at you. BLAKEY: Could you give us an astimate of nis height? AZCUE: That's very nard. He was about this big. BLAKEY: How tall are you? AZCUE: I'm over six feet tall. The man was probably around five faet six, five feet seven. BLAKEY: How much would ne nave weighed? AZCUE: I don't know. He was thin - very thin, with a very aquiline nose. : BLAKEY: . Maso menos AZCUE: You know, in an amusement park thev touch vou and. they can guess exactly how much you weigh, but I don't have DODD:. Approximazeiy now old was ne? AZCUE: Oh, around 35 years oid. DODD: He looked like ne was 35? AZCUE: You know, ne looked like he was a 35-year-old man , but a 35-year-old man wno nad been run through the mil DODD: Is it a common experience to nave American snow ul Were ted
Husebio Azcue Interview...sage 13 AZCUE: ‘es, there were many. DODD: That wanted to go to the Soviet Union? AZCUE: NO, no, no, to visit Cuba only. Many, many came srying to visit Cuba. DODD: S50 the Oswald case was a rather rare occurrence? AZCUE: Yes, it was very rare. DODD: Did you make anv svecial notations due to svecial circumstances? AZCUE: No, because we just refused to give the visa. I would have taken detailed notes if I had given Aim cl wr (D <! be u) fu kt would nave listed the reasons why I nad given nim the visa But not having given him the visa, = had nothing to write about. oe om Ny 6) He (wD 0) rh ct O “ (i) This was only anot many raquests that =I knew would = not be grantec. For without contacts in Cuba, we could not grant +97) on fu tt (D 09) 0) ju ct qu ks }~ kind of forwarding =: seg left my office amiably, but since he didn'c... DODD: But was the visa application in process? I mean, 3 +4. we . , 3 : . mutate Lo ae! periodically -- this was routinely done in avery consulate asking ey mH 1 es Pa ae a 7 , ” “ te a 7 For a reply. We constantly receivec telephone calls trom pecpis
by (= 109) 0) Do tw 0) ib IN Qa (a 00) et cr (D K cd ke 0) = 6) fu Q (D t 4 noes that nad acplied for a visa. See, chey're the ones who have to call for they're the ones that are interested. DODD: But he never did? ; AZCUE: Right DODD: Bureaucratically, once you've submitted an application, you would presume that the process would continue whether vou receive the call or not? AZCUE: Of course. Like I said before, averything was Forwarded to Cuba. The Cuban government received the many mever sent us an answer. DODD: What do you mean bv it was never answered ‘J os . AZCUE: We did not receiv (b a reply for ais visa from fu His (@) (D O rh rt 0) (D DODD: Going back to tne shysical apoear Harvey Oswald, apart from naving a receding nairline, was there any grav in Lee Harvey Oswald's hair? AZCUE: You know, Ne had plond nair. ft's ail very interesting. You see, this picture I really did not study carefully. The picture was taken by the secretary and she va aan staoled it to the application, and we would send tne whole
uy Fusebio Azcue Interview... BLAKEY: But it ls your memory that this sicture portrays the person that you saw. /AZCUE: The truth of the matter is that I remember nim differently. I remember him thinner, but it is sossible onat it ‘was the same person because pictures are never vcerfact. -The impression that I have is that ne was a very thin man with a very hard face -- a tough expression. PREYER: The first time that he came to your embassy did ne ask for an intransit visa or just a visa to Cuba? AZCUE: He did not ask for an intransit visa because people are not normally familiar with this process. But he aid say that he wanted it to go on to Russia. PREYER: On his next visit when he brought the photos, I understand that he asked now Long it would take for the Cuban visa at that time and you told nim that if ne knew someone in Cuba it would be quicker. So then did vou give him anv dates as to how long 12 would take if he Gid not know anyone in Cuba? AZCUE: Mo, pecause i could mot make any commitments. PREYER: Then he latte to go to the USSR ambassyv. How far apart are the two embassies in distance?
Eusebio Azcue Interview...page 16 AZCUE: No, no, you see, it is likely that the interview of the Soviet consul took some time. In fact, I believe that it was the following day that he came back to see me. He may possibly nave gone to the Soviet embassy on the same day, but went to the Soviet embassy and that the Soviet embassy called me, but T think that this all hapvened the Zollowing day. PREYER: And the Soviet embassy told you that they would Nave to call Moscow? AZCUE: Yes. Thev said that they could not grant hima visa without consulting Moscow first.) PREYER: And then you told Oswaid that? AZCUE: When Oswald camé to the Cuban embassy then, I also told him that I could not give him a visa and that if the Sovist embassv nad to consult Moscow, I had to consult Cuba. PREYER: Did he ask now Long Lt would take? AZCUE: Yes. He asked that quite often, usually to Mrs. Duran. You know, everybody asks that. And our answer is always the same -- depending on your relations and friends and contacts in Cuba because they can expedite the process. PREYER: Did you or the Soviet embassy ever give him an that it would be a long time, or that it would be three weeks?
AZCUE: No, no. PREYER: I ask you this Secause should it be a relatively time that ne would wait there for the visa. But Ou @) rh short perio then you say you do not recall any specific... AZCUE: I think that I saw iv Ou iD te od on o K v ct (D 'S Ky U O on M te ry t to get the visa from us. What he was interested in was getting the visa from the Cuban government immediately. DODD: You would not have made any coolies of the documentation re] that he showed vou of the Fair Play For Cuba Committee or his im K membersnip in ihe United States Communist Party? AZCUE: I can never take away these papers from people. They are only for them to show us as examples. But it's the same at the Soviet embassy. They take data on the cassport just Like we took data ners from Als passport. I would take notes from Qu @) a Fi cd uy - ~ t- A (D fu Yd fu “Wn w gs e) ua ct fu a} Au ct hy r1)) Ha | ty @ a [a ty ws ct We) 4) "GS rey) uw) to) G @) t s ec 16) He) tS t t never aven ratain them for a while. BLAKEY: Did you examine the passport? AZCUE: It is very likely - yes. BLAKEY: . Would you nave locked at the onotograpn on ine passport? AZCUE: Yes, sure, you always look at them, but it is just yoo a quick glance. a BLAKEY: Would vou have noticed that the person you saw _ before yourself was difierent from the person's Dnotograph on the passport?
ty cs (0 jo. w io ra (D AZCUE: rh different was ne was Oswald Interview...page 13 Well, I'il tell you. The person tnat I found the person that. came to the embassy and told me and the person that I later saw on TV when he was assassinated at that Dallas police station At that ooint, it looked like two different people. BLAKEY: When you saw the passport, did you see any difference between the picture in the passport and the person Standing in front of you ? AZCUE: No, no. Normally I'm not a very analytical person. You see, it's usually the Secretary that deals with all these matters. But the difference that I noted was between che man who came to the consulate and the one that was assassina which is the JFX exhibit of photographs. Mr. Azcue, let me show vou a book of The book will contain Would you look 1 &@ number o£ pnotograons. m each page slowly and study each face and determine whether you can recognize any of the perscns there Please take your time. Do not look for any one particular person. gust tsll us if you recognize any of te photos. \ — - oe oe nm AT THIS POINT, THE CUBAN GOVERNMENT ASKED FOR A LD . LOOK ‘OS CAREFULLY. FOR THE RECORD, WHEN THE SESSTON , MED, THE SAME PEOPLE WERE PRESENT APPROXIMATELY TES PASSED AS A RECESS IN WHICH MR. AZCUE HAS LOOK ED aly
AZCUE: No. 57 represents Oswald, put the Oswald assassinated. But frankly, the idea that's in my mind of Oswald - the one that I saw at the consulate - is not so similar to this photo. I recognize him because I remember the television clips shown on of him when he was killed. If TI nad not seen those clips on television, I would not have recognized nim as the Lee Harvey Oswald for the memories that I have of Oswald are similar to what appear on these yhotographs. Pictures resemble the man but I insist that nis nose is more agquiline, that his eyelashes were straighter, his look was more cold, and his cheeks seemed clder - that of an older man. His cheeks were sunken like that of an older man; alsc much older than this photo. This man in the shoto would be at the most 30 vears old man in the picture is much younger. You see, it was many vears ago, sO - but I remember, Is&w the shoto, the Oswald that had been assassinated. I did not recognize him as the same man that visited me at the embassy - so different features - even a short time - had only been a few months, from Septegber zo December. BLAKEY: Can you remember the first time that you saw ead
Busepio Azcue Interview...vage 20 AZCUE: Yes, it was on TV: BLAKEY: Did you also see his photograph in the newspapers? AZCUE: Yes, in some magazines. BLAKEY: You said tnat you did not recognize the man when you saw him in the photos and on TV? -AZCUE: That is correct. I noticed some diiferences. I said: “Damn, this is not the man. This does not look Like the man who went to my office." BLAKEY: Did you bring that aifterence to the attention of anyone else? AZCUE: Yes, I did - with comrades, vou know, from the Ministry. BLAKEY: Did you write any memoranda? AZCUE: No, because such citings ares usually very subiective. a — ¥ a And they were just guick glances anc could be inaccurate, = especially tnose that = saw on TV. BLAKEY: What about those in the newspaper? AZCUE: Those were not very clear. A-clearer one was the film clip on TV when Oswald was killed at the Dallas police station. He makes a gesture of pain where he's got gleaming \ eyes, where he seemed to be+younger and. fatter than the man . S ue that had come to see me. I made it known to my superiors, but it was a very subjective thing, you know. The man tnat I saw on TV did not resemble the man that I had seen in mv office.
Eusebio Azcue iInterview...ovage 21 BLAKEY: And what conclusion, if any, did you draw. irom that? AZCUE: It was something that I saw and then said - problem is that you cannot really rely on my fast glance or a rh | ast glance of a picture when a verson is being killed. immediately recognized ct hat that was not the man that I had seen in the embassy. Tf it is true or not, I cannot really say for certain, but it seemed to me it was not the same man. | “BLAKEY: Do you think that if you saw a photo of the man who was in your consulate that you would reccgnize it now? AZCUE: I think yes - yes, yes, ves. Yes, IT think so. I think it's only a matter of, you know, angles; so I was seeing the man face to face. And he was furious. But I also was furious. Thus the face I saw was one that was bothered and nard - in his death ne has a passive look Tee's a subjective opinion. Let me tell vou. Months Later, or maybe years later, I neard the mayor of New Orleans... BLAKEY: You mean the prosecutor in New Orleans, Garrison. AZCUE: Yes, that's right, Garrison. de began an inn investigation and he said there were two Oswajds. Then my 4 theory was, you know, reaffirmed. That gave credence to my + theory that the man that was assassinated and the man that ‘ rh h visited me were different persons. These are just subjective appraisals. I've got them.
BLAKEY President Castro, then Premier Castro made a speech a couple of days aiter the assassination in which ne in- dicated that ne had nad a contact with the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. Do vou recall that contact? rT y AZCUE: Yes, I.do because he had had contact with me and 1 only with me. The contact that I'm talking about is Cswa contact only with me. t LOPEZ: Professor Blakey is referring to contact of Fidel t with the Cuban Embassy. -> AZCUE: Oh, I understand, at that time I made some declara- tions just like IT am making them now. The exception of the dual Oswald theory because of not seeing the photograpns on television. BLAKEY: Did you speak directly with the President? AZCUE: No, I spoke to the man in charge of the Ministry. It was the guy in charge of the Ministry of Foreign Relations Foreign Affairs. BLAKEY: By what medium dic vou talk to Aim? AZCUE I svokea to Aim in person. BAKEY: Did you go from Mexico to Havana? AZCUE: No, no, I nad already come to Havana. Twas in Havana. See, I came to Havana from Mexico on November 18th and 1 on the 22nd was Kennedy's death. So immediately, as soon as I Saw the name I remembered. ”) : soe Foe on . a~=-_: Oo at tne Ministry of Foreign Afitairs I said: "This man requested a visa from me.". So then I had to make declarations, very exhaustive declarations, where I stated
Ne Do vou speak Russian? No. Did anybody in the office at that time sveak Russian? No. , - Then no member of the Cuban Consulate in 1963 spoke Russian? That is correct. Nowdays probably many Cubans speak Russian. Did you have any telephones at the Embassy that could be used by the public? No. The only telephones that could be used were those in our ices. rh rh fe) Could you describe to us the route that Oswald would nave nad to have taken to get into your office? If you want I will draw a schematic olan for you. Do it right here. back ct om @ (By right here, Professor Blakey means on one of pages of the questionnaire that was presented to the Cuban government, in copy number 4.) For the record, we will stop for about two minutes, while Mr. Azcue makes the drawing. ,We are back on the record. Mr. Azcue has orepared a drawing. Will you explain it to us, please, Mr. Azcue? This is the entrance. Sf . the drawing. rh He is pointing to the right hand side.o These are the streets. Could you tell us some names of the streets, vlease? The one on the right is Francisco Marcos Street. The other one I cannot recall right now.
G7 ¢L fp TG e Two - Page 3 Mr. Azcue, may I ask that when vou refer to the drawing, that my j~ you may recail tnat- you are being recorded, that you speak be able to follow what vou are saying. in 1) . The entrance is in a corner between two streets. Te is a large broad entrance, and we nave a hall immediately following the entrance, which is the waiting room for visitors. The second cart would be the consulate where the secretary would be sitting. There 1s a wall there made of wood and glass, the lower section made of wood, and the top section 1@ secretary would re made of glass. “That's the wall that t be looking into the waiting room and outside into the street, from where she sat.. The secretary would be sitting at this point in the middle. Now around her would be furniture and desks. The secretary can see the entrance. She is in the prover sosition and. that whole wall is made.of glass, and z everyone who comes, you know, she can see whether they are 1 coming in alone or whether they are coming in accompanied. (b 1) She receives the company at this svot here. The serson would normally come in and say that they nave come to apply for a visa, and then she brings the person in to this spot. If there is any problem, she would call me, and I would come out of my . r ue office. se . Would she call vou personaily, or would she call you on the ft No, no. She would call me sersonally. We are very close. She would probably get up and call me, however, if it is a matter that is not routine, something that is different from che
Z2Cu e - Tape Two - Page 4 Ordinary. You see in this case it was not a routine matter, for he wanted to expedite the vorocess. Arter you had a conversation with Oswald, or when you had the conversation, would you point on the drawing to where you were standing? Cartainly. I would be here and he would be there. Would you tell me where the phones are in each office? Certainly. There was a telephone in this office, the secre- ct tary's office, at this spot and also a telephone in my office at this spot. I also nad an intercom, but I did not normally 1 use the intercom. I came out through this door and I asked him ae te to get out at this point, while we were standing here. I wri Ww told him to get out now. Would it have been possible for him to have used your tele- 13) pnone? No. You see normally if somebody asks whether they can use our phone, we say sure, go anead. But I rememper that he did not ask me whether ne could use our pnone. To your knowledge, did anyone else in your office, Mrs. Duran, (permit) Oswald to make a phone call from your Consulate? Tt could have nappened, yes. But there was no reason. Tz she wanted to authorize a phone call she could do it, but there was no reason to. wee Did you ever have any, conversations with her, in which she indicated that sne could have done it? a] No. Never. met her again two yvears after the assassination, in November of 1965, and she was a very good friend of mine.
B: .Did you discuss this? tw cr rye cr ° 6) A: Yes, of course.’ She told me about all her problems wi Mexican authorities. They nad arrested her, they had out ner picture on the front vages of the newspapers, that there was a tremendous scandal, you know, involving her. B: Did she discuss with you the confrontation that she had with Oswald? vag A: O£ course. The same thing that happened to me. It had onliv been two years and we remembered serfectly well. You see, the Mexican authorities wanted to implicate her, for you see, ' = Since she was Mexican, even though she was Mexican she had n fe) diplomatic vrivileges, and you see, they arrested her and thev - wanted to implicate ner and they even treated her very badly. She defended nersel=t though. She bit people and she kicked peovle and it was a very, very public thing, you Know. A public scandal in che newspapers. They tried to coerce her B: In those ciscussions that you néd with her then, did she savy anvtihing about her memory in reference to the overson who was there, as opposed to the person that she saw on TY? A: I really do not remember if we discussed that. It's verv likely that I spoke about that. I= really do not remember it, ‘because more than anything our conversation gonsisted of Mrs. aes Duran telling me about her problems with the Mexican authoriti (D nn --s C: Were all of the man's visits, whoever he was,-during the norma working hours? You Know, from 10 to 2?
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 4 4 - Qu fu ct Iw I o ct ry m oy th ct (D ty 3 Oo O ie] ny) ie] ion fv I-27 Yes, yes. We always closed ways opened at 10 A.M. Without exceptions? Yes, that's true. Possibly though somebody could contact us by onone. Would that routine also cover Saturdays and Sundays? Saturdays, yes. Sundays, no. Trying to be as careful as vossible about the dates, would it have been consistent or inconsistent in the operating procedures 7 ut the visa applica- ry ™N cr 18) rh ood te k- oO of your Embassy for the sacrata tions for Mr. Oswald on a first visit there, aven though he did not pring the picture? + It is not likely. It could be, but it on the first day the person is informed that he has got to nave a passport, photos, and etcetera. inally told the man to leave, do you a4 Hh The day on which you. remember if that transpired on the day that he filled out the Y visa, one day after he had filled out the visa, or two davs rh fe ter he had filled out the visa? rey) th (D h It was probably a day after ne filled out the visa apolication, Or maybe two days after he filled out the application. You see, re) ct rh (D D re Mr. Oswald had to go to the Soviet Embassy and I don . . : . \ va at . that it is very easy to go to the Soviet Embassy and resolve the oroblem quickly, then return to the Cuban Embassv. He probably came to our Empassy on the 27th of September and on the 28th he probably went to the Soviet mEmbassv, and he probably returned to the Cuban Embassy on the 29th. And it is on the 28th that the Soviet Embassy probably called me. That is probably the
most logical (thing), sut it didn't necessarily have to occur that way. It is though the most logical. This document was presented to us. dy the Cuban government ated October ‘the 15th, 1963, and Qu yesterday. It +is a letter it appears on page 12 of the book that the Cuban government handed over to the Committee. Da vou recall the ood etter? Yes, this is a routine letter. And the Cubans received the applications, that is, when they receive a request from a North American citizen, he has to call us by telephone, prepaid, as often as possible to check whether his visa nas been accepted, nis visa application has been accepted. dHe should call us though only when he has the visa from the Soviet Union. Were you. still in Mexico on this date? Yas, of course. Ah, now that I look at the letter I remember the full name of the consul that was going to take my places. His name was Aliredo Mirabal. Could you teli us the address to Mr. Mirabal? I was already handing the whole office to him. I was teaching him all the procedures But you were, at any rate, stiil there when this letter came in? Yes, of course. But this is a routine letter. TI did not even la < . . need this letter. I mean, whenever the Soviet Embassy notified us that the Soviet government had authorized a visa, then I an 1 also; the Cuban government could authorize a visa. Do you Know whether or not any action was taken upon receipt of this letter?
We just filed it, that's it. This is only a notice, this letter. It nas no implications whatsoever. Would you have had a forwarding address for Mr. OCswald on October 15th, and if so, would you have forwarded this letter to him? No, I did not have a forwardin Q wy) QA. Qu NY 0) u) Nn ty G ct (8) <q D te rh Ki oy fu Qu nad one I would not have forwarded the letter for, first he 4 i would have needed the Soviet visa, and then we could have acted. T= you would once again look at the visa application, Document #779, will you estimate now old you think that man in the picture is? Well, I would say he's about 28 to 30. But the man I remember as having visited the Embassy was over thirty-five years old. It is also interesting I haven't seen this picture, you know, in all these years. Ti's the first time that I see this picture, in a long, long time, But yet the memory I nave of that man h ade? chat went £0 the Consulate dif: wD rs from this pnot 0 $ i Could I ask you again now long Mr. Oswald reamainec in your office on nis first visit there? I would. say ten or fifteen minutes at the most. That rirst visit is always very quick. We let them know exactly what they need - a passport, a onotograph, and then &hey ask us Vue e how long will it take to process the matter, 60) 1 on w ct (e) 0) cr (D ry fv rl wT @ first visit always consists of only an interchange of ideas, an interchange of information. Kt oe] On the second time, was he there longe c fan) Yes, because ne had to wait for the vi 3) fu 00) x6) ue) ae tH 9) fo ct i} ind 6) He} ct 6) vd (0)
filled out. de nad co wait for the application to be tvyved. occasion? Q. S: SO: how long would he have been there on the secon -A: Oh, approximately fifteen minutes. He had no reason to remain there any longer. You see, ne doesn't spend a lot of time with me. It is one of those routine, you know, matters that a secretary usually handles. You see he spent a very short time with me on that second visit because he came back with the impression that after his conversation at the Soviet Embassy averything would be expeditiously handled. But then I had to explain to him that that was not so. You see, even though, I had to tell him that aven t were legitimate uw c 19cugh Ais paper papers, that if the Soviet Union nad to consult Moscow, then I ougnt to explain to nim that he nad to wait. And then at that point he got angry, then I threw him out.. 109) So then how long would that argument between the two of you nave taken? A: I cannot calculate it for you. But it's one of those conversa- tions that transpires quickly. Well, he would have spent at te) most ten minutes with me and possibly another five minutes with the secretary before she called me into the office. See, what I had to explain to him could be done very quickly, and you see, \ he got offensive and I threw him out. . s ue S: Mr. Azcue, on tne application which is signed, in which everyone purports that it is Lee Harvey Oswald's signature, it's also a signature lower than Mr. Oswald's signature and is done in green ink Signature? A: I have been put on the application once i ri L? do not recognize it as one of
matures from our Cuban Embassy in Mexico City. ah. tne si Can anybody here make out what that signature savs? Cuban officials: No, we've already concluded that it's illegible. A: Does anybody recognize it as Mrs. Duran's signature? Cuban officials: No. We think it is Lllegible. A: It is not my signature. My signature is very clear. You can A: make out my name. . Will you write vour signature here for us, Mr. Azcue? Of course. Here's mv signature. You can:read my name here. Azcue, A-Z-C-U-E. [I've written it onthe same page that I drew the schematic of the Cuban Embassy before. Mr. Azcue, on this visa application, there is a section entitlad “observations”. Will you read that section so that I may ask vou a question about it? Of course. This is exactly what I was talking about before. > tl It says that ne exhibited those certain documents. £ savs that showed us papers stating that he was a member of the Communist Part of America, and Secretary of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans. He was in thé Soviet Union from October 1959 until June 9, 1962, that there he got married with a Soviet citizen... social documents that accredit him as a member of the two organizations previously me ntioned, and alsova. wedding certifi- cate. He presented himself in front of the Soviet Embassy, asking that his visa be sent to the Cuban Embassy. ‘This is very interesting, because you see here it seems like we IH give him the visa. t seems Like whoever wrote this thought that we were going to give him the visa. There's also a small g g g
Azcue - nn ape Two - Page ll rd h bh dii erence here, for we called the Soviet Embassy, it savs here, and what we understand, what I understand that occurrad was that we called the Soviet Embassy and in fact they called us. Maybe a secretary called the Soviet Embassy and then the Soviet Embassy called me, that's possible. I recall that when they called us they told us that they would first have to Qu ke ct get authorization. What I do not recall is that they sai would take about four months, and it states so nere in th (D “observations section of the application. With reference to this application, when the secretary typed this up, who would have made this:observation, who would have been in ner presence, who would have dictated it to her? y you will allow me, the secretary would only type the rh I information above the observation section in front of the _ applicant. The other material, thus the secretary probably th Sood Lie did it after Mr. Oswald le ’ So that none of the information that appears on this application was taken directly by you? That is correct. ft is not my job. It is not the Consuli's job; it is the secretary's job. This is a routine matter that has no importance, for the Consul to be the one to do it. This information is sent to Cuba and then it is studied there. ye Was there more than, was Mrs. Duran the only secretary in the office, or was there more than one secretary there? ! pe No. Mrs. Duran was the only one. So then in the total office, there was just yourself, Mrs. ‘ x Duran and the Consul wno was going to replace you, Mirabal. Q That's correct?
Azcue A: A: Cuba on September 30th". - Tape Two ~- Page 12 t Yes, that's correct. Doesn't it also appear in the leave for Cuba on September 30th?: Um, I, oh, yes, nere it is. That is If the section "observations" ther Soviet embassy, but vet your best Soviet Embassy called you, Both things might be true. It cou called the Soviet Embassy, and called me back. What I recall is back. After the assassination Oswald became very And important. brought all of the facts that you application that he wishes Sa Of President Kennedy, the ae) ys “wishing to depart for is that correct? correct. @,. someone states that we called recollection is that the ld nappen that the secretary then the Soviet Embassv that the Embassy called me name Lee Harvey as a result of that you knew to the Cuban government. Well, it, of course, is very important to the Cuban government. Now, after you talked to the man from the Ministry about this, what transpired? Was it followed up? Let me explain this to you. I contacted the Ministry of Foreign Relations, Foreign Affairs, which was my ministry and there I spoke with “Nilo Otero, and a minute and then they said "Wait Ministry of Interior." Then they matter and they took care of it. Was there a stenocrapner there at was not. The interview between myself and the Commandante was a stenographer present. Raul Roa” tepped in for Let us call the oe a minute. saw’ the importance of the , and I
@ - Tape Two - Baga 13 dave you racalled now, later on, that there might nave been a stenograpner present? No, never. What I said there, pnecause of the importance it had, Mr. Pinero, you Know, who raised about eighty questions, many more than what you've asked me so far today. Do you recall signing a statement after you had given them a declaration? | No. No. It was a very informal thing. We drank coffee three or four times. One final question, what is the date stamped in the middle of the page, in blue? October 10, 1963? . It is probably ours, but it seems very late because from September 27th until October 10th, thirteen days transpired, 7” ; ‘ and I remember tha ct ct my office was. always up to date and, vou see, the applications always left on the next mail delivery, mail schedule which would never take more than three or four days, w oO I think that the date stamped on this visa was tne date that lt was received nere in Cuba. I will tell you, it (D » never took so Long to get an application out. We would do that ct immediately, do it immediately. It was just a routine matter. I had already seen that date before and it seemed very rare to me. It would never take me thirteen days. Three or four ve , days, maybe, but never thirteen. fee I have only a couple of more questions. Would it be normal precedure for the verson who fills out the observation section to sign their name in the lower right hand corner. Yes, but the problem is that that signature does not corres- pond to any of the people tnat worked at the office chere.
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 14 It could have seen signed by the secretary, but the signature does not correspond. It could nave been signed bv Mirabal or mysel=. Once again the signature. does not ¢ rrespond. But the signature would not be necessary for the Consulate stamp is already on it. Earlier you indicated that there came a time , you heard of an investigation in New Orleans, Jim Garrison. At that time, you. recalled that you nad the same theory that the cerson might not be the same. Did you talk with anvone about that, at that time? -Yes. I did, but not officially to anybody. I svoke with Nilo, _ who was the director of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and I also remembered tnat I spoke to Lechuga. Yes. Nilo Otero. £ Do you know if he took any measures aiter that conversation? Mr. Otero told me that ne would revort it to tho 1) e@ vecple that could do sometning about it. To your Knowledge, do you <now i= ne did so? As far as I know, I think so. But you know, what I was saying was so subjective, because I could not guarantee that I was right. You see, since it was such a subjective statement, you 7 “ know, they probably took it witha grain of salt. Let me direct your attention back in time to the period when the Warren Commission was operating in the United States. Did anyone speak to you at that time about any of these matters? rh This would have been from December of '63 through September o "64.
Azcue - Tape Two - Page 15 108] speech was just the definitive chi hy Yes, I'm sure.they did, Dut not officially. I mean, Fidel's rey) ~ g...expressed to the world og very clearly the whole situation taat, you Know, had occurred to us, insuring, you Know, our position and even included the fight that I nad with Oswaid. Fidel said all this, you know, in his speech. There was nothing more to say. I cannot at this time think of anvthing more to ask you. I'm sure that I will as soon as we say goodbye. I hope that vou will permit me, if I have second thoughts, to forward them to you through your government. It will be my sleasure. rh One last question. After we said that we're finished, now I have another question. I'm sorry. You told us when you started to speak to us that you had gone cver the story many times. You tell us that you told the story to Mr. Piniero. Wno else have Orficially, under the direction of the Ministry of Foreign Fidel got all the details that I could remember and by that time everything that I knew, the Cuban government knew. At that time I could remember everything that nad transpired. Have you been spoken to by any reporters, you know, American « . va reporters, or anything like that? oo No, never. I never would have a uthorized any interview with me. f But, I presume that the reason vou have talked about this several times, is because of your private conversations? opic of conversation arose whenever we talked a (Db n 13) ta rd on @ tT ing to involve us or implicate us in the
cc) i rq ou ze) (0) ry z (e) ] "gy ju Q a) an ron assassination. Did you have a chance to review earlier, before you talked to us today, the report that vou had made to the government in 1963? No, never. There was an interview, I was interviewed by our Consul in Washington, Mr. Escartin, two months ago. I said the same thing that I am telling you now. It is all I know. That's all I remember. There may be different words “used by me, but same story. Let me direct your attention to photo number 60, in the book, in the photograph book. Do you know that individual? No. Ts the face familiar at all? No. Tee's not. Mr. Azcue, on behalf of our. Committee, I want to express our thanks for having apoeared here this afternoon, having subject (b 1 2 : yoursel=t to our questions. You have been most patient wii fh mo ail us. You have indeed been helpful to us in our investigation and we certainly aporeciate your taking the time to be here. Many thanks. But I also feel that you can be very beneficial rh to us, for you can clarify once and the facts of the assassination, surrounding thevassassination once and for all. That's exactly why we are here and why we ask@d you to be our wltness. Thank you. ad = or all, for you can clari:
KENNEDY SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS Name Eusebio Azcue Lopez _ Date August 25, '78Time 3:20 Address Place —_ Interview: nr; Blakey: First, let me thank you for allowing us to visit with. you again Senor Azcue. Azcue: You are welcome. Blakey: _ For the record let me note the date is August . 25 and the time is approximately 3:20 and we are in Hotel Rivera and present are: from the American Delegation, Congressman Richard Preyer, G. Robert Blakey, Edward Lopez. Could I ask if the Cuban Delegation would identify themselves? Interpreter: . oe from the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Captain - , from the Minister of Interior, and from Foreign Relations, and Mr.’ Azcue, Blakey: Mr. Azcue do you object if we tape this \ conversation? Azcue: No. ye Blakey: Would you state for the record your full name please, Interviewer Signature Typed Signature G, Robert Blakey, Edwin Lopez Date transcribed August 30 By: SS Form #4—
Interview: Page 25 Blakey: Azcue: Azcue: Blakey: Eusebio Azcue Lopez to have the final word. But in any case, I did want “informally on the record to indicate that your testimony is of sufficient significance that we would like to be able to have you present this testimony publicly to the Committee and the Congress and the American people. Thank you. Thank you Senor Azcue. You are welcome. I second the invitation. Let me indicate for the record that it is now 4:35.
KENNEDY SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS Name Alfredo Mirabal Diaz Date August 26, 1978Time 10:15 ar Address Place Riveria Hotel, Havana,: Cut Interview: Blakey: For the record, let me indicate that it is Saturday, August 26. -It is 10:15 and we are in the Riveria Hotel in Havana, Cuba and the people present from the American Delegation include Congressman Richardson Preyer, G. Robert Blakey and Edwin Lopez. And I wonder if the Cuban Delegation could identify them- selves. Interpreter: Senor Buergo, from the Ministry of Foreign Blakey: Affairs, Captain Felipe Ville from the Ministry of Interior, and Ricardo Escartin , Foreign Service; Juanita Vera, interpreter. Mr. Mirabal, what we'd like to do this morning with your permission is to discuss with you some of the facts surrounding the assassination of Presi- dent Kennedy, more particularly the visit of Lee Harvey Oswald to Mexico City in September of 1963. I wonder if you'd state for the record’ your full name. Interviewer Signature pe Typed Signature G. Robert Blakey __ Date transcribed 8-30-78 By: Br Form #4 _ Pa
Mirabal Interview Page 12. Blakey: Mirabal: Blakey: Mirabal: Blakey: Mirabal: the argument toud then I just. went out to take a look at the argument, what he was discussing. I was not interested in his person exactly. Be- sides, I did not know English. I thought it could be an. argument. So I saw it and then I went back and took seat in my office. I remember comparing him with Azcue. He was rather small and narrow, a very grave face, a serious face. How was he dressed? Did he have a suit on? It seems to me he had a suit and a tie. It seems to me. I recognize of course that I'm asking you about events over fifteen years ago and what we want really is your best memory and I know that it's sometimes difficult to remember things. And so I hope you bear with me if I ask you these kinds of detailed questions. Can you recall what kind of suit it was? Was it dark or light? I can tell that the recollection I have is that it was rather light but who can retain that in , ot the memory? oe Can you remember whether it was stripped or solid color? If we ask the secretary maybe she knows, because