157-10005-10250 Date: 10/05/93 Page:l JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM r oe . IDENTIFICATION FORM aU AGENCY : SSCIA \A 3 Wu \A RECORD NUMBER : 157-10005-10250 RECORDS SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : R654 on ee ne om ae oe a a oe ST ST OM KT TOOT HM we oD me ee oe oe oD eaaw ee =o DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : SSCTAY FROM: . TO : TITLE : TRANSCRIPT/RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS/EXHIBITS DATE : 06/25/75 PAGES : 61 SUBJECTS : PAGES 8-68 OF TESTIMONY BY SARNO, ALFRED J. DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION.: T RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED CURRENT STATUS : P ‘DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 10/05/93 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : BOX 258-11 [R] - ITEM IS RE i 3 HH 50955 Bocld:322027440 Page i
_e ce a : _ : pene oe ee eens a ee ee Unauthorized Disclosure Subject BS ° Onn co Criminal Sanctions a , Ro54 Che Wuited States | SSC] or Report of Proceedings CIA HAS NO OBJECTION TO DECLASSIFICATION AND/OR RELEASE OF THIS DOCUMENT — SANITIZED ” or , AS ae Priday, June 25, 1975 (Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over age = CO the Committee for destruction) WARD & PAUL :. 410 FIRST STREET, 3. E. : WASHINGTON, D. C. 20008 =< TOP Sper HWY 50955 DBocld: 322027440 Page 2 , ° | 4
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 1l le WARD & PAUL 13 14 15 16 17 18 |i 19 el 22 235 24 410 First Steeet, $.E., Wasmington, O.C. 20003 25 HW 450955 Doacld:3 20° TESTIMONY OF Alfred J. Sarno 02440 Page 3 TOP SECRET CONTENTS TOP SECRET _ PAGE
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 11 lé 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 - ei 22 23 24 29 Doctld: 32207440 TOP SECRET Mr. Sarno. I think from December, 1961 or January, 1962 to September, 1967. Then from June -- August, 1968 to September, 1969. Mr. Wides. Now let me go back, and can you give us a very brief summary of your positions with the Agency prior to that? I don't mean detailed as to what you were doing. Mr. Sarno. I joined the Agency in September of 1951. Mr. Wides. Yes? Mr. Sarno. I was assigned to three countries before I hit Florida. Mr. Wides. All in the Western Hemisphere Division? Mr. Sarno. All in the Western Hemisphere. Mr. Wides. So you had rather long stations in each of those, three or four years? Mr. Sarno. (Nods in the affirmative) Mr. DeMarco. When did you become an American citizen? Mr. Sarno. I was born in Ohio. Mr. DeMarco. Had you been stationed with Mr. Phillips in Cuba before you came to Miami, or were you in Cuba bafore you came to Miami? Mr. Sarno. Yas. Mr. Wides. ee] sjwas the Chief? Mr. Sarno. | was the Chief. Mr. Wides. And you had contact with Mr. Phillips then? TOP SECRET Page. 4
TOP SECRET 9 10 $ @. 1 Mr. Wides. You never heard of any plots, nor of any ; 2 arrested people attempting to shoot a bazooka when he was : 3 giving a speech at Havana Stadium? : 4 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 6 Mr. Wides. Let me go to the period when you went to P Florida. . When you first came here, that was before Station Chief 8 [naa moved the whole station to Miami? Mrs Sarno. [| wasn't there. When I arrived in Florida, 9 10 Jwas not then -- no, sir, he was not the station chief. Lh Mr. Wides. Who was the station chief? 3 12 Mr. Sarno. I don't think I should give you his name. -% ; 13 I don't know. YOu have the rest of all of them, but I can't < 4 recall -- 14 . I can state that there were two station chiefs between’ 15 . [Jana Shackley, three of them, in fact. 16 ; Mr. Wides. Shackley came in when, 1963? 17 Mr. Sarno. ‘62. 18 Mr. Wides. When in '62? 19 Mr. Sarno. I think the spring of '62 is when it was. 20° _ Mr. Wides. When was he replaced by Mr. Dimmer? J a 8 € 21 3 Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was in '64, I think. a 22 a 3 June, July, I think, something like that, of ‘64. a 29 E Mr. Wides. And then Mr. Dimmer was replaced in ‘66 by 2 24 s Mr. | 25 HW 50955 Docld:34202440 Page 5 TOP GECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 “HW 50955 LO ll le 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20° el 22 23 24 25 TOP SECRET ll Mr. Sarno. Rg Mr. Wides. And then Mr. Esterline replaced Mr. or was there someone batween? Mr. Sarno. Mr. Esterline did not replace Mr. Nobody replaced| _| because they closed up the station. Mr. Wides. We understand that the station was operating very recently. Mr. Sarno. Wsl1l, I'm not saying -- you sae, the station you spoke to before, you spoke of, went out of business in June of 1960 when mr.{ fete. Mr. Wides. I see. Now, what was the relationship between yourself and the station? Administratively, and in terms of reporting, when you first went down there. Mr. Sarno. When I first went down there, I was outside. I believe it was concerning clearances to get me into the station, because I had never been working in a station before, so there were special clearances. So at that time, those two months you're speaking of, I attended a course and I may have been sent_out once or twice to interview a Cuban refugee or one of our agents who had left Cuba. Mr. Wides. And then you set up the MMs! program? Did_ you start that project, or was that started when you came in? Mr. Sarno. It had been started, the nucleus had been formed at that time. . BDocla: 33270237440 Page 6 "er | @PFrA2Aa tT
Phone {Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, §.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 450955 LO il le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° Al 22 235 24 25 _Yefused to disclose names. TOP SECRET 13 Mr. Wides. And except where there's a question of an agent under cover who would be possibly exposed to harm or that kind of thing in regard to the mention of other Agency people, certainly at the level of Mr. Shackley or other officials, Mr. Dimmer, and so forth, that the general procedures have been that people at the Agency or retirees have not Now, you certainly have your rights -- Mr. Sarno. No, sir. I am not quastioning you, or anythind, except I've been in this business a long time and I've never mentioned anybody's name. Now if somebody were to tell me, if Seymour Bolton were to tell me that I could tell you all the names of all my supervisors and everything, it's perfectly all right. But I've never mentioned a name and I feel that-I shouldn't mention a name. Mr. Wides. Well, we may have to take a break and do that, but let me go on. Migs Cubans were With regard to the ses program, the not contract agents of the station, is that correct? Mr. Sarno. No, sir. Mr. Wides. They were proprietary employees essentially of essentially? Mr. Sarno. LASER was a group -- that proprietary was Set up in September of 1968. Prior to that time they were a bunch of Cubans just living down in Miami. Docld:39202440 Page 7 TYW GES DET
TOP SECRET g 14 : 1 Mr. Wides. And what was their relationship to the Agency | 3 2 | through you? . | 3 ) Mr. Sarno. They were.a group of Cuban exiles who were 4 being funded to collect information, intelligence information, | 9 on Cuba. : 6 Mr. Wides.. They were paid agents? : 7 | Mr. Sarno. They were paid agents. 8 Mr. Wides. Soma of them received a fairly sophisticated ! 9 training in tradecraft, in some cases communicationsf 10 | operations with regard to a station in Florida, and so forth, 11 is that not correct? , d i 2 3 & N 12 Mr. Sarno. Sophisticated equipment, yes, sir. 4 ; ' { : 13 Mr. Wides. And tradecraft, general tradecraft training? 3 14 Mr. Sarno. General tradecraft training, yes, sir. 15 | Communications.training -- well, most of tham ‘weren't 16 || communicators, so they required very little if they did 17 || receive training. 18 . Myr. Wides. Would that put them in a little bit more 19 | official status of some sort, whataver the category is called, 20: than simply being a paid informant? 21 - Mr. Sarno. No, sir. They were just like paid informants |: 22 || excapt we provided them funds to operate with. : 23 They are no more -- they are not contract, wa did not 24 | have them under contract. , 410 First Stveet, §.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 25 Mr. Wides. But they would still get training? HW 50955 Docld:37709440 Page 8 — Te) 8 CRERET
Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ll le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20: el ae 235 24 25 Boctla:3 TOP SECRET 15 - Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir. Mr. Wides. And the program first operated where? Where did you physically locate? Were you at the University of Miami, at the Naval Air Station at the begining? Mr. Sarno. No, sir. Mr. Wides. Where were you at first? Mr. Sarno. Are you speaking of our station? Our station was physically at the } but these Cubans did not know where the station was. Mr. Wides. And you just contactsd them separately? Mr. Sarno. They had houses that they rented and they worked out of different houses, and there were many of them, so I can't recall them. Mr. Wides. Did you have an office facility apart from the station? Mr. Sarno. Myself? Mr. Wides. Yes. Mr. Sarno. On one occasion, for a very short period, I had an office. Mr. Wides. an Mr. Sarno. Mr. Wides. Apart from the station? Mr. Sarno. No, sir. Mr. Wides. That was a cover? 202440 Page 9 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET 16 1 Mr. Sarno. That was the station. 2 Mr. Wides. And what was the mission and purpose of 3 || @WEGRS, when you first started out, as indicated in the project Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 4 outline? 5 Mr. Sarno. They were to collect intelligence on Cuba, 6 debrief refugees and provide bodies for any possibile operations » || required by the station. 8 Mr. Wides. They were to debrief refugses? 9 Mr. Sarno. Debrief rafugees, collect and evaluate, maintain 10 records. airaern 11 Mr. Wides. Was there a division of the i got members into 12 two groups, with only a small group involving the debriefing 13 of Cuban refugees? WARD &@ PAUL 14 Mr. Sarno. Well, it wasn't too small a group, but if you 15 would speak of the whole organization overall, yes, it was a small group. 16 1? Mr. Wides. And at what point did you set up any cover. 18 apart from the station as a proprietary or notional company; 3 19 in between the @ilwit people and the Miami station? In other cd 20: words, were the companies prior to the Latin America GGGum - 5 21 z ui 22 Mr. Sarno. In the time that I handled.them, which is 3 PASTS i vers all @: 93 || up to the 4NSER, I think there were three, three cove 24 told, or perhaps four. I think we had our debriefing, you 5 || know, under one cover. HY 50955 Docld:3927027440 Page i0 Tr. GEfD ET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 Ll le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° 21 22 23 24 29 BDocld: 372707440 Page iL W Mr. Wides. That was from the start? You had a separate cover for the debriefing? Mr. Sarno. Well, from the start we didn't have a place for them, and it wasn't pulled together as a debriefing unit. When a large flow of refugees started to come in is when we set up the spscial unit. Mr. Wides. When was that? Mr. Sarno. Well, they cut off -- Mr. Wides. ‘64, ‘63? Mr. Sarno. It could have been '62, late '62 or '63. And before, we used to send our debriefers, they were within the lGkSe group, specialists in debriefing, area specialists is the kind we used. And we would go out to the reception center and check around and see who had come out of the particular area. | Mr. Wides. At Opa~-Locka? Mr. Sarno. At Opa-Locka. And our debriefers would go out and check around with the people who came in and try to spot somebody who would be. interesting to interviaw, debrief, concerning the particular area. And so thay usually picked them up in a car and either took them to a restaurant or took them to a- motel or something and would debrief them. And then we found that it would be better to get a building for them to bea in where we located them altogether, where they could prepare their reports and TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 11 12 135 14 15 16 17 18 19 20: el £2 23 24 Z£0 TOP SECRET 18 everything. Mr. Wides. And so that's when you first set up the proprietary for the smaller debriefing component of Mr. Sarno. Well, I set up the proprietaries, the notionary company for a small debriefing office, and at the same time, we rented a building, a larger building, and they used to operate in Coral Gables, receivad some publicity and we moved them out of Coral Gables to near the airport in a building where the main office was, where this main office was, where these 7 reports from the debriefers or any other information was collected would be processed, typed in finished form, translated and provided to us. Mr. Wides. About how many people did you have in AMOTS Cubans at that time? Mr. Sarno. Well, that's difficult to say. Mrs Wides. 150? Would you say 150? Mr. Sarno. I would say inside, outside, it could be close to 150. Mr. Wides. Did you have more than a dozen or so working in the component on debriefing? Mr. Sarno. As I recall, at one time -~- as [I recall it, we had about 22, 23 people working in debriefing. Mr. Wides. And apart from those Cubans, you had a staff under you of assistants and secretaries who were Agency assigned personnel? Bocld: 32707440 Page 12 TOP GECR ST
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, 5.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ll le 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20° 21 22 23 24 Z£0 TOP SECRET 19 'Mr. Sarno. Yas. Mr. Wides. What kind of staff did you have? Mr. Sarno. Well, it started off originally since we weren't big, I started off with one secretary, and it eventually ended up that there were one or two Intel assistants -- Mr. Wides. These were Agency personnel? Mr. Sarno. Agency personnel. ~~.and two or three case officers. Mr. Wides. The case officers handled segments of the Mr. Sarno. Segments of the uum Mr. Wides. Now, the other, speaking very roughly, hundred and fifty or so CES, Cubans, you said some twenty were involved when the debriefing program intensified. What were the other hundred~odd Cubans involved in? Mr. Sarno. Well, we had records personnel, we had I would say six or seven who only worked in records and main- taining of files, and general index cards, and that was it. Then we had what we called our reports section which may have had about fifteen people, twenty people, who wrote reports, checked them out, cross-referenced, and everything else that was involved in that. Mr. Wides. What kind of reports did they write? What were they writing reports about? Mr. Sarno. Economic -- whatever they were learning from Docld:3#202440 Page 13 Tee GESfRDET
TOP SECRET 3 21 $ = 1 against Cuba, and had weapons they weren't supposed to have. 3 3 2 Mr. Wides. Like Alpha-66? 3 5 _ Mr. Sarno. Alpha-66, there were many of them. 4 And we usually had one of our outside types, either 5 recruit or get next to an individual of the group and he would 6 Penetrate the group himself to report to us what they were 7 doing. 8 Mr. Wides. Do you recall the flights of the Diaz, or one 9 of the Diz brothers, over Havana dropping leaflets? 10 Mr. Sarno. What date was it? 11 Mr. Wides. I believe it was quite early, and it was not ! < 12 in connection with the 6 z 13 Mr. Sarno. I know the Diaz brothers. 3 14 Mr. Wides. Do you recall hearing of flights with =- one 15 of them with Frank Sturgis over Havana dropping leaflets? 16 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 1? Mr. Wides. It was fairly widely known. 18 Mr. Sarno. Well, I didn't get into Cubans until maybe 19 it was June of '60, but the only leaflets I ever saw fly over 20:|| Cuba was the day before the invasion. Those were the only 21 ones I saw. 22 Mr. Wides. When you were in Miami, did you have any 23 || Contact with Frank Sturgis, Frank Fiorini? 24 Mr. Sarno. Never, never. To my knowledge, he never worke 410 Fisst Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 for us. HW 50955 Docla:3#202440 Page 14 TOs GECDBDET
Pnone {Area 202) 544-6000 @ 410 First Street, S.€., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 WARD & PAUL 10 ll le 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20° 21 22 25 24 29 TOP SECRET Mr. Wides. Not getting back to the bulk of the AMIS SRS; group, apart from the reporting on refugees and the efforts to keep tabs, which I guess is'a summary of what you are saying on what exile groups might be doing that the government might otherwise not know about, is it correct that thera was surveillance of the Miami community generally with regard to possible Castro agents? Mr. Sarno. Not that I know of. Mr. Wides. There was no counterintelligence program in Mr. Sarno. We had a counterintelligence component in the AGS Program. Mr. Wides. Why don't you describe that? Mr. Sarno. The counterintelligence program consisted of very capable Cubans who knew of the former -- the set-up of the intelligence agency inside of Cuha, so if anybody ware to come out, any refugee were to come out and name an individual that was a friend of theirs that we knew or suspected of working for the internal security which was the DSE or their external service, the DGI, our counterintelligence group or ae one of the individuals would go out and debrief the fellow and collect names, and prepare reports on it, and they maintainad files, and that is what it is. They never got under a surveillance of any of them, becaus once a report was written they suspected somebody. They maintain- Docld:392707440 Page 15 TAD GECD ET
TOP SECRET 24 3 fo] -) : = 1 a file of them, and when Cuban refugees would come in, they f=] “§ 2 would receive lists of. names to check in their files, and if 2 5 they suspected one, then they would gather all of the 4 information possible on this individual, prepare a report, 5 name their sources, and they would pass it to the station. 6 The station in turn would prepare a memorandum and send it to | ? the bureau. 8 Mr. Wides. Is it your sworn testimony that you never knew { 9 of any surveillances or efforts to penetrate groups for 10 counterintelligence purposes by Cubans under your supervision? il Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no. You're speaking of penetrating 12 groups, yes. They penetrated groups. Surveillance -- I never WARD & PAUL 13 sent them out on a mission to surveil anybody concerning whethe 14 they were suspect or whatever. 15 Mr. Widas. Was there any surveillance of Cubans in Miami 16 conducted by -- whether it was in cooperation with the Bureau 1? or not -~ conducted by any of the @MUseSecubans that you were 18 aware of? 19 Mr. Sarno. I cannot recall if there ever was. 20- Mr._Wides. I don't mean a specific one. 21 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall ever giving them any assignment 3. 22 Mr. Wides.’ I'm not talking about assignments, I'm 23 || talking about whether you're aware of their conducting -- 24 Mr. Sarno. As I say, I do not recall them conducting 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 25 || any surveillance on anybody. HY 50955 DBocld: 32007440 Page 16 Tr. BD E€EfREeT
Pnone (Area 202)94a4-6000 10 il 12 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 21 ae £9 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 £0 20: TOP SECRET 24 Mr. Wides. Any telephone taps? Mr. Sarno. Never any telephone taps, we didn't have telephone tap capability. Mr. Wides. <Any photography? Mr. Sarno. We had a photographer. Mr. Wides. When was he usad? In what circumstances? Mr. Sarno. Well, the biggest majority of his work was to copy certain documents. Mr. Wides. I mean photographic surveillance. Mr. Sarno. There may have been. I really can't state which one he was used on if he was aver used for photographic surveillance. Mr. Wides. Which what he was used on? Mr. Sarno. I mean if he was used on photographic “surveillance. I don't recall aver ordering him out on photo- graphic surveillance. Mr. Wides. Do you recall if there ever was any photo- graphic surveillance carried out by any of the ea Mr. Sarno. I have no recollection. I do not recall. Mr. Wides. Were you getting reports of any sort, whether you would characterize it as surveillance or not, on people who had already come and were in Miami as distinct from the interview reports when the refugees first cama? Isn't it correct that the QWUM personnel were providing you with reports on Cubans who were already in Miami? HW 350955 Docld: 37207440 Page i? TOP GECR ze
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARG & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20° Al 22 25 24 29 Bocld:3 TOP SECRET 25 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir. Mr. Wides. Would you describe that program? Mr. Sarno. Certainly. As I said, they penetrated these groups, they would go around and then they would sit and talk and. as you. would’ call it, ‘the’surveillance, the fact that they penetrated, they would sit at the table and report on the individual and what the individual said and what they were Planning. We call it penetration. To me, surveillance is to put two men on the street following somebody from one place to another. Mr. Wides. Were there ever occasions when the station was suspicious as to whether Cubans in Miami might be Castro agents that you were aware of? Mr. Sarno. Many. Mr. Wides. Did they ever ask.for any assistance in the bstgroup in trying to keep tabs. on those individuals or to test their suspicions? Mr. Sarno. No, sir. Mr. Wides. Who would do that? Mr. Sarno. It would be the CI section of the station. Mr. Wides. You don't recall any situation in which - Mr Sarno. In which @Miijjek participated? No, sir. Mr. Wides. -- working with the FBI. Mr. Sarno. The FBI occasionally would ask for the services of one of the AWS, but it was mainly not to surveil 02440 Page 18 Te. CGELDET
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL @ 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ll le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° Al 22 235 24 25 TOP SECRET 26 anybody. It was to provide information to them because their name would come up ‘somewhere in a case. Mr. Wides. What kind of assistance? You mean more than just a chance to interview them? Mr. Sarno. No, just interview. They never used them to run a@ man on the street or anything like that, no, sir. They tried to get one individual one time and they didn't know that he worked for us and they tried to hire him and he came back and reported it. We had to advise them that he was already working for us. Mr. Wides. And you had 115 men and::all---- Mr. Sarno. There were women also, sir. Mr. Wides. And women, and all they were doing was interviewing refugees and writing reports on exile potential activities against Cuba? Mr. Sarno. I would say that was the biggest majority of their job. Mr. Wides. What was the rest of it? Mrz Sarno. They also went out, if our station was going to run an operation and they needed X amount of bodies, certain specialized personnel, the aunts would go and locate the personnel, talk to them, spot them, get their personal history from them, send it in, and the:-people would be traced out and checked and cleared and eventually introduced to the station case officer who would use them in our operations. DoclTd: 3392702440 Page 19 Tr, © Ce fREeT
TOP SECRET ° 27 8 © ge a Ll Mr. Wides. Who arranged for the training at the training N oS N 3 2 || station at{ dt), was that used? & . 3 3 Mr. Sarno. For whom? 4 Mr. Wides. When the @iuisppeople received training, some 5 various kind of tradecraft, who would arrange that, yourself? 6 Mr. Sarno. December, 1961 when I took it over there were 9 only three cases of who were sent away for special B training. Three cases, three individuals. 9 One came here to Washington, ths other was going to be | 10 loaned to a station overseas. He came up and received training, 11 || The majority of the training given to the (Q§@iGS} was down in 12 Miami, Florida. WARD & FAUL 23 on a@ surveillance. 24 Mr. DeMarco. Who conducted the training? 13 Mr. Wides. And what kind was that? 14 Mr. Sarno. Basic tradecraft, reports writing -- 15 Mr. Wides. Did they ever get training in surveillance? 16 Mr. Sarno. Yes, they received training in surveillance. 17 Mr. Widas. Why did they get that? 18 Mr. Sarno. Well, that is part of their program of 3 19 -training them as a group. : 20- Mr. Wides. Even though there was no use of them for : 2] surveillance purposes? | : 22 Mr. Sarno. I do not recall, sir, ever.sending them out E 25 Mr. Sarno. Our Training Branch, personnel from our HY 50955 DBocld: 32402440 Page 20 TOP SECR eT
TOP SECRET g 28 % $ ws 2 1 Training Branch. °o . 3 Z Mr. DeMarco. From Washington? : 5 Mr. Sarno. Yes. 4 Mr. Wides. You say the majority of the training was in $s) Florida. What period are we talking about, throughout the 6 period? q Mr. Sarno. It could be spread over. Reports writing, 8 for instance, when the Agency, or when the station was being 9 cut back in personnel, this group used to produce tons of 10 reports, and when our station was being cut, the staff was 11 being cut, I convinced the Chief of Station into having the 12 reports officers, for instance, trained to ‘prepare reports 13 which would require very little editing or preparation once WARD & PAUL 14 it arrived in the station, which would take a load off the 15 station, and it was agreed to. 16 . Mr. Wides. You arranged in general for the training or 1? the training office? 18 Mr. Sarno. I never trained. . 8 19 Mr. Wides. But they worked through you administratively? ‘ ¢ 20 - Mr. Sarno. Yes. ° é 21 Mr. Wides. So you were familiar with all the training z 22 || &MMES personnel would have got? 5 23 Mr. Sarno. I would say all of the training that they E fo] ¢ 24 received during the period I was with them, with the exception 25 of that one year there, and also I must ‘state that although [I HW 50955 Docld:3%202440 Page 21 TC Dp GECBET
TOP SECRET 30 1 Mr. Wides. There were :some new people coming in? 2 Mr. Sarno. Yes. _ Some of the people would move, they got 3 a job that paid them more, but there were very few that came Prone (Area 202} 544-6000 4 in after the original, say about 1964 I would say it was well 5 astablished and very few dropped out or were taken aboard there- 6 after. 9y Mr. Wides. They all got what you referred to earlier as 8 basic tradecraft training? 9 Mr. Sarno. No, not all of them. 10 Mr. Wides. How many? ll Mr. Sarno. There were very few of them. in the original 12 || group. I never had them trained in basic tradecraft. The 13 original group which I took over which, if I am not mistaken, WARD & PAUEL 14 || Was about eighteen of them, and I understand that prior to 15 the Bay of Pigs -- 16 Mr. Wides. . Eighteen in @& 17 Mr; Sarno. 18 19 | had been given basic tradecraft training. I never once sent 29.) them out to receive basic tradecraft training. 21 Mr. Wides. After you came -- when you came there were 22 || eighteen (Miss and eventually we're talking-about 150, roughly, Pues! 23 or more? 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 24 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir. 25 Mr. Wides. And you never knew of any of the people who HW 50955 DocId:32%202440 Page 22 Tsp GEfFRDET
TOP SECRET 31 RRS, after you took over getting general tradecraft? Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 2 Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir. 3 Mr. Wides. And to your knowledge it was only report 4 writing? 5 Mr. Sarno. Well, they trained them in each one of the 6 Sections, and I didn't train the debriefers, so if a new man 7 was hired and he was put in a debriefing, he was trained u 8 usually by the Chief of the Debriefing Group,-he was put in 9 there to work along with other debriefers to catch onto the 10 thing. me Mr. Wides. Now your testimony with regard to surveillance ie training, who issued that, or how many people? WARD &@ PAUL 13 Mr. Sarno. If I am not mistaken, it was four or five. 14, Mr. Wides. When you first came, or shortly therafter? 15 Mr. Sarno. Yes, it was all at the -- now, now, just one 16 || second, because I went in surveillance training myself. 7 I don't recall whether this four or five whom we trained 1g | in surveillance were trained while I had them or they were 19 || trained before I took them. 20- Mr.Wides. Now after that, those four or five, no other People to your knowledge received any surveillance el 22 training, is that your testimony? 416 First Street, §.E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20003 23 Mr. Sarno. That is true, sir. 24 Mr. Wides. What about picks and locks? 25 Mr. Sarno. Nobody. HW 50955 Docld:349?02440 Page 23 TAB GEeFRDET
3 32 ° 3 ; 4 1 Mr. Wides. That you know of received -- io] i 2 Mr. Sarno. Not a single one that’ I know of. : 3 Mr. Wides. Did you know anybody at (ues who had 4 capability of any previous experience at picks and locks, 5 surreptitious entry? 6 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 9 | Mr. Wides. You were not aware of anyone at giv 8 that capability? 9 ' Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 10 Mr. Wides. You never discussed it with anyone at the Ll station? 12 Mr. Sarno. Possibly. 12 Mr. Wides. Well, let me ask the question, ~ the WARD & PAUL 14 capabilities in the area of surreptitious entry or picking 15 locks and no part of Guay people in all those years? 16 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 17 Mr. Wides. Wera the group that were locat din your 18 homestate that were involved in the interception of any : 19 traffic, radio traffic or Cubag, were they under your supervisign? 3 20. Mr. Sarno. They ware originally under my supervision, : 5 and later the station brought an individual down from Head- ; 22 quarters and took over that operation. : 23 Mr. Wides. And when was that? : 24 Mr. Sarno. Well, the station always had somebody at the . 25 station who was reviewing all of their work and passing HW 50955 Docld:32202440 Page 24 TOP GECBET
TOP SECRET 33 i 1 instructions. I handled them for a long time. | 2 Mr. Wides. Until roughly? i 5 Mr. Sarno. Until roughly the arrival of Mrgaoimma You 4 | have the date there. I think Mnag mis-\the one who brought | 5 | down the fellow from Headquarters. 6 Mr. Wides. And these people received some training 9 regarding the use off i fequipment even if they had 8 | Some experience as radio operators, isn't that true? 9 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I really don't know. 10 I know that I never brought an instructor down to train 11 them in the use of radio equipment. These individuals had 12 worked in this work in Cuba before they came out -- 13. Mr. Wides. In | work, Like this? 14 Mr. Sarno. inf, work, yes. We had two very 15 brilliant fellows who were the top peonle in the communications WARD & PAUL 16 field in Cuba. 1? And most of the radio operators had had up to twenty 18 years experience, they were alderly people, and they had been 19 in radio and they could read and they could send it out very 20 well. . 21 Mr. Wides. So your testimony is that -- 22 Mr. Sarno. I do not recall them ever having been 23 trained by anybody, in any sense. 24 Mr. Wides. Or communications in general? 410 First Seveet, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 Mr. Sarno. Now communications generally, I cannot say tha. WW 50955 Docld: 34202440 Page 25 TOP SECRET i
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HY 4S0954 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 - él 22 29 24 29 Baoclda:3 TOP SECRET 34 because several of the @ifigiisawere trained and several of them who were brought out of Cuba, because Several of them were in Cuba as radio operators and then they came out. They ware in the Miami group not operating radios, but -- Mr. Wides. But during your administration of the Uy group as case officer, you don't recall any training being given in communications? Mr. Sarno. No, sir. Mr. Wides. Do you recall any cooperation of the § people with the FBI and other Federal agencies trying to DF and identify suspected illegal wireless operators in Miami, Castro agents? Mr. Sarno. No, sir, they nevar did. Mr. Wides. @UjiSawas not involved in that? Mr. Sarno. No, I nsver heard of any. You must remember that when Dimmer came down and brought the fellow, I never Saw the traffic anymore, but during the period that I was looking at the traffic, and I was directing that special intercept group as part of the » I never once gave them an order ANOS) and never saw any that they did. Mr. Wides. When Mr. Shackley was the station chief, did | you report to him or someone selse? Mr. Sarno. I reported to my branch chief. Mr. Wides. And what was that branch? Mr. Sarno. FI Branch, Foreign Intelligence. 02440 Page 26 TOP SECRET
HY Prone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 4106 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 0955 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20: el 22 25 24 29 Bocld: 32327027440 Page 27 TOP SECRET i 1 35 Mr. Wides. And that was the same procedure throughout the period? Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir. | . - Mr. Wides. Up til '67? : Mr. Sarno. Through ‘67. well, let's see, now. No, sir. Well, it was, because later they made the AMUSE group, it became a branch, and they brought in a very senior officer to be the Branch Ghief, and I was considered the Deputy Branch Chief. Mr. Dimmer brought in the senior officer. Mr. Wides. And you don't feel like you can give us his name? Mr. Sarno. There's no reason not to. He is retired now. Bill Caldwell. Mr. Wides. What contact did you have with a man who called himself | Mr. Sarno. He was the Chief of the MI Group, the Cuban Chief. Mr. Wides. Mr. Sarno. Mr. Wides. And he was your principal contact? Mr. Sarno. Ha was my principal -- he was the head, the Cuban head of it. Mr. Wides. Are you familiar with the history of the (ja group that he prepared in the late ‘60's, or worked on? Mr Sarno. In the late '60's? TOP SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17, 18 19 20° 21 22 23 24 £9 TOP SECRET 36 Mr. Wides. I thought so. I thought in '66 or ‘67, that is what I meant, that he had worked on the history of the group. Mr. Sarno. Well, no. Mr. Wides. Are you familiar with the written history of ioe program? Mr. Sarno. I have never seen it. I had-established the policy that every three months he had to write up about the group, so all of that, I understand, was all compiled into the history, so I don't know. Mr. Wides. As part of the Miami Station? Mr. Sarno. As part of the Miami Station, so I don't think -he was told in '66 or '67, start all over and prepare it. Mr. Wides. You think it was a consolidation? Mr. Sarno. I think it was consolidated over the years. Mr. Wides. And this is antitled what, do you know? Mr. Sarno. I supposed it would be The History of the Mr. Wides. And you've never seen it? Mr. Sarno. I've never seen it. Mr. Wides. Do you know if it's at Headquarters in the Latin American Division? Mr. Sarno. I do not know. Mr. Wides. When the Cuban Operations Group was set up -- let's go back -- in '6l when you took over was approximately DoclTd: 32702440 Page 28 TOP GECBRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 ll le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° el 22 23 24 Z£9 TOP SECRET 37 the period when Mr. Harvey was setting uo the staff Task Force W, is that corract? | What contact, if. any, did you’ have with Task Force W personnel as distinct from the station itself? Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever. Mr. Wides. They never came down and spoke to you? Mr. Sarno. When I came out of Cuba, when I escaped from Cuba, I was brought up here to Headquarters and debriefed, so I imagine that the person that debriefed me, this is in July of '61, I would imagine that individual was part of the Task Force. Mr. Wides. I think that was still in the Division. They had not split the Task Force until the winter of ‘61, '62. Mr. Sarno. I see. Well -- Mr. Wides. But after that when you were in Florida, you had no contact with anyone, to your knowledge, other than the Station personnel? Mr. Sarno. Wall, I don't know. Occasionally they would call me to Washington to discuss something. Mr. Wides. And did you discuss something with people in the Task Force, the Cuban Task Force? Mr. Sarno. The Cuban Task Force. Mr. Widas. Mr. Sarno. Mr. Wides. And did you have any contact with Desmond Docld: 32202440 Page 29 TOD GECRBET
Pnone (Area 202; 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 Li le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° £1 22 25 24 25 TOP SECRET 38 FitzGerald when it became the Special Activities Staff and he took it over? Mr. Sarno. I know Desmond FitzGerald, or I knew him, and discussed operations with him -- no, I never sat down and discussed an operation. I met him at a party, and that was all.| Mr. Wides. And when you came to Washington what kind of discussions would you have about the Qi program? Mr. Sarno. I made so many trips to Washington, I say I was also the case officer, I used to travel and recruit people. | I do not specifically recall ever being called to Washington to discuss @uUAS. Mr. Wides. But do you recall ever discussing the gUiiiep program and the Cubans in it while you were in Washington? Mr. Sarno. Well, if I would come up on a trip and some of the people who were sitting on a desk hare who were maintaining the records and everything of the Muue , I suppose, ves, thay would come around and discuss parhavs the budget or perhaps get them to report in a different manner. I recall on one occasion discussing the set-up of i how the EXE group prepared the debgjefing reports, that they could remove the namas from it, instead of filing them inside the report, they put the names on cards so they could be put into a computer machine here. Mr. Wides. In the period when Mr. Shackley and Mr. Dimmer were Station Chiefs, which would be '63 through '65 or so, did Docla:3 ones Page 30 Tap GECRBET
TOP SECRET 3 39 [=] ce] ¢ & o 1 you have any contact with Mr. Sternfeld or Mr. Esterline?- Py 3 2 Mr. Sarno. Which period is this? : . g 5 Mr. Wides. '62 to '65 or so. & 4 Mr. Sarno. Mr. Esterline, who I believe at that time 5 was ~~ Mr. Esterline was -- 6 Mr. Wides. Was he in Miami? 9 Mr. Sarno. No, Mr. Esterline was on the staff he -- I g | don't know whether it was on the staff of the Task Force or 9 who at that time, but I knew Mr. Esterline, first from his 10 visits. I first met Mr. Esterline when he came to Miami in 11 either late ‘61 or early '62, and I never saw him again until 12 he used to make his trips down, and then I understand he was 13 assigned overseas. WARD & PAUL 14 Mr. Wides. Did you discuss the Qiupis# Program with him? 15 Mr. Sarno. At that period? T Mr. Wides. At any time. 7 Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, he was my Station Chief at one 18 time. g 19 Mr. Wides. You mean in ‘68 or '69? : 20. Mr. Sarno. That's right. : 21 Mr. Wides. But not prior to that? i 99 Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, he came down on.~- prior to his : 23 coming down and setting up the new station, he came down and 24 discussed with all of us who might remain at our jobs there. ; 25 Mr. Wides. But not in the early period of the '60's? HY 50955 DBocld: 33702440: Page 31 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET 3 4g $ = 1 Mr. Sarno. Not in the earlier -~ 3 3 e Mr. Wides. What about Larry Sternfeld? 3 Rs) Mr. Sarno. No, Mr. Sternfeld was never connected with 4 the Cuban thing until early '68. 5 , Mr. Wides. Let me go back to, the cover companies. 6 You say you set up one company for the smaller group, or v4 One notional that was handling the -- 8 Mr. Sarno. Refugees. fe) Mr. Wides. Refugees. 10 Can you give us the name of that? Ll Mr. Sarno. I don't recall it, sir. 2 12 Mr. Wides. Now, was there a Separate company -- é c 13 Mr. Sarno. For the principal group. 3 14 Mr. Wides. And what was that? 15 Mr. Sarno. Well, you named it off, the @i@té 16 17 I thought you said that didn't start until 1g | ‘68? : 19 : Mr. Sarno. ‘68. ) ¢ 20° Mr. Wides. E 21 Mr. Sarno. Is that what that stands for? There was a z 4 22 @: 23 Mr. Wides. a sh. Company? : 24 Mr. Sarno. Yeah. ° 25 Mr. Wides. What was its cover? HW 50955 DocId:37202440 Page 32 TAD CEfLDET
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL e 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° el 22 23 24 £9 TOP SECRET 41 Mr. Sarno. They were supposed to be doing, researching Latin America, since they had a lot of files, and you could hear a lot of typewriters clicking all over the place. Mr. Wides. And what's your best recollection of the name? My best recollection is @@ayen Mr. Wides. Company? Mr. Sarno. Company. Mr. Wides. Did it hava any other names? I think you suggested there were evan more than two proprietaries and more than two notionals. Did you have three or four going at one point? Mr. Sarno. Well, it was at one point, at one point there were three of them, if you included the Intercept. The Intercept people had another name. . , Mr. Wides. But basically there were -- Mr. Sarno. There could have been three of them at one time, and basically there were two, yes. One of them was Mr. Sarno. Mr. Wides. In the United Statas. DoclTd: 32207440 Page 33 TOP CECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 Fiest Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 HW 50955 LO ll 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20° el ee 235 24 29 Doclda: 3¢307440 Page 34 TOP SECRET 42 Mr. Sarno. Nobody aver approached me on it. They were outside of Miami, but the thing that happens is the Chief of the Miami group, when an @§@uiwould leave -- Mr. Wides. This is Tia Mr. Sarno. When one of the @@@Sbwould leave for his | when they would move to any area, and all they would do is to reasons, they would always maintain contact with Wag Yeport on Cuban exiles in that area. Mr. Wides. And would the fact that they were leaving and going to another area be reported by you, back through channels to Washington for relay to CIA personnel in the area where they were going? Was this ever done? Mr. Sarno. Yes, it was done, yes. Mr. Wides. And was it not uncommon in the case of Cubans going to the New York area? Noes that happan fairly frequently Mr. Sarno. Well, since it was handled in such a loose way, in that it was between| Pana this individual and we didn't have them on the payroll. Mr. Wides. You mean you didn't have them on the payroll in the sense of employees, they were regularly paid agents, informants? Mr. Sarno. They were given funds byj } which obviously were authorized for sort of like operational expenses Mr. Wides. Excuse me. You're talking about when they were in Florida, or when they were moving? FOP SECRET |
TOP SECRET 3 43 2 3 = 1 Mr. Sarno. No, when they were in New York, if they went oe g 2 to New York. ¢ - g o Mr. Wides. Well, let's go back. 4 The first question I was asking you was with regard to 5 your relaying to CIA personnel the fact that someone who had 6 been at Aue in Florida was going elsewhere and you said that 7 || that happened, and then I asked you -- we will come to the 8 operational relationships in a moment -- how frequently that 9 happened in regard to people coming to New York. For example, | 10 I assume that there were a fair number of Cubans generally in 1l | there for one or two members of GUgy who went up to New York 12] during the course of all of these years. WARD & PAUL 13 Mr Sarno. No, sir, no, sir. 14 Mr. Wides. Would you say several dozen or a dozen? 15 Mr. Sarno. So far as I recall, there was only one that 16 aver went up there, and he in turn collected two or three of 17 his other friends around him who formed a little nucleus, but 18 there was only one (ge that went. : 19 Mr. Wides. What about other cities? What other cities : 20: do you gecall people went to? : 21 Mr. Sarno. In the United States? z Wl 202 Mr. Wides. Yes. : 23 Washington? - : 24 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. San Juan, Puerto Rico, and that's all, ¢ 25 |} in the United States. HW 50955 Docld:32202440 Page 35 TAD GECRBET
TOP SECRET | > 44 i S 3 @ } _ 1 Mr. Wides. Chicago? S ; i 2 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. F 5 Mr. Wides. Anyplace on the West Coast or the Southwest? 4 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 5 | Mr. Wides. Boston? Mr. Sarno. No, sir. Mr. Wides. SO you only recall persons who had been in GQUUES telling -- why don't we refer to him as ae that they were going to another city as being New York and LO San Juan? il Mr. Sarno. New York and San Juan are the Only two I ‘ever le SpA Or people that had Fecall they aver had any aif 13 been in the organization went. WARD & PAUL 14 Mr. Wides. Now when they went and they recruited other People, was that|| Bsuggestion or under his supervision 15 16 Mr. Sarno. They usually collected a group around people 17 that they trusted. 18 Mr. Wides. Was that up Supervision and : 19 direction? : 20. Mr. Sarno. Ha directed them to do it, yes. TI didn't avan i 21 Know the individual, I never met him. It's one individual. z 22 Mr. Wides. Did he Spaak to you about the fact that he i o% Was going to do this, ns | % 24 Did he consult with you on it? 25 Mr. Sarno. Well, I believe it came up -~ I knew the fello TOP SECRET HY 50955 DBocld: 322027440 Page 36
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 1? 18 19 el 22 23 24 2, Street, §.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 20° TOP SECRET | 45 was leaving, because he was taken off of the role as being in Miami, and we may have, discussed his being used while he was in New York in case anything ever came up. Mr. Wides. Do you recall discussing it? Mr. Sarno. Well, yes, we did discuss it, obviously it was discussed, because this fellow came up with a big thing when they were going to bazooka the UN building. Mr. Wides. Was this One of the Novo brothers -- or was either of the Novo brothers in @@Uie in Florida? I believe this is the name of the two people who Were arrested at the time. Mr. Sarno. Wad that was in New York is the one that discovered the Plot and we informed the Bureau and the Bureau moved in on it. Mr. Widas. You informed the Bureau? Mr. Sarno. We informed the Bureau of that shelling of the UN, and it was the # SRS, this one PANG, up there who dot the information. Mr. Wides. And he relayed that to someone in New York, or back, through | } to you? <a Mr. Sarno. He relayad it tog jana we -- ha informed us, and we in turn advised’ our base in New York who in turn advised the Bureau. Mr. Wides. Which basa is that, the Domestic Operations or the Security Office? HW 350955 Docldi92?207440 Page 37 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET 3 46 $ 3 6 1 Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations. w f=] 8 . Ba 2 (Discussion off the record.) : 5 Mr. Wides. With regard to the information received from 4 the former @MiUg in New York about the plot to shoot a bazooka 5 at the UN, was Mr. Shackley the Station Chief at the time you 6 received that informatian? 9 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall the date, but the date was 8 héetween early ‘62, which it had to have been, and -- hecause 9 Shackley left which I think was in July of '64 and that would 10 have Meant he was the Chief of Station. 11 Mr. Wides. Well, didn't he just indicate before while we 12 were taking a rbreak that you had recalled that Shackley was 13 the Station Chief? WARD & PAUL 14 Mr. Sarno. I don't recall whether he was exactly the 15 Station Chief or not. I can't place the date with what had 16 happened, so I know I went back to the Station and I reported 7 it, and it in turn was reported. Now, if I told it to Shackley 18 or if I told it to Dimmer, if I told it to the two different 19 || Branch Chiefs that were there. at the time, I do not recall. 20: Mr. Wides. Now would’ that report be in the GMiiuysp file? 21 Mr. Sarno. In the history? 22 Mr. Wides. No, in the file, the project file. 23 If wa got that date when that took place, the date when 24 the Agency had the information, would your report and report of 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 || the branch or station in Plorida be in the uWgs project file HW 50955 Docld:39202440 Page 38 TO Dp GEf¢DET
TOP SECRET 47 eo 8 | ¢ ~ 4 1 or would it be in some other file? 5 3 2 Mr. Sarno. I don't think that they maintain a chrono on ft 3 3 It was voluminous. Once they were processed by the 4 Agency and put into our communications channel, be it by 5 dispatch or by cable, I don't think they retained all of those 6 tons of files. 7) Mr. Wides. Do you recall who the FI Branch Chief was at 8 the time? 9 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 10 If you give me a date that I know -- ll Mr. Wides. I believe it was ‘64. 12 Mr. Sarno. If it was early 1964, then Mr. Shackley was 13 there. If it was late 1964 when Dimmer came, then there was WARO & PAUL 14 another branch, so there were two branch chiefs. 15 | Mr. Wides. Now dia you ralay this information, did you 16 say, to Washington, or directly to New York? 17 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I never handled communications. 18 Mr. Wides. Well, I didn't mean you -- : 19 Mr. Sarno. If I write it up, I give it to my branch chief : 20: and my branch chief in turn sends it out. But to me, it would : 21 seem logical, knowing communications, that we would send the ; 20 cable directly to New York with info to Washington. : 23 Mr. Wides. Were you ever told that communications had 6 24 been made to New York? You said before -- ° 25 Mr. Sarno. Yes, I was told, because I think there may have HW 50955 Docld:39p09440 Page 39
TOP SECRET 3 48 $ = 1 been a cable or something: coming down and giving the boys 3 3 2 credit for the thing. : 5 Mr. DeMarco. Do you recall now the name of this one 4 AVG wWho went to New York? 5 Mr. Sarno. His name was Enrique. 6 Mr. Wides. Could you spell that? ? Mr. Sarno. E-n-r-i-q-u-e, that is his first name. 8 I don't recall his last name. 9 Mr. DeMarco. Lazarus? |” 10 Mr. Sarno. No. Lazarus is not a last name. 11 Mr. Wides. How many people did he have working with him? a . - < L2 Mr. Sarno. Sir, I don't recall, but I know there was more & : 13 than one or two. 3 14 Mr. Wides. And wou 1dj Igive you reports that hea 15 sent down to| 16 Mr. Sarno. Yes, sir. 1? Mr. Wides. And what did the reports talk about? | 18 Mr. Sarno. They wera on Cuban exiles, groups, collection 19 of money, Alpha 66 and people of that group who were up in 20: New York City. 21 Mr. Wides. Was it your impression at the time that this e2 || group had no contact with any CIA offices in New York? 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 @ 23 Mr. Sarno. Which group, sir? 24 Mr. Wides. The group that this fellow Enrique had. 25 Mr. Sarno. Had no contacts with anybody else? HW 350955 Docld: 323207440 Page 40 Tf". BD G€EfRDperT
TOP SECRET 49 1 Mr. Wides. With any CIA offices in New York. Was your a impression that the only contact that he had with CIA was all Phone {Area 202} 544-6000 ° the way back through Miami? 4 Mr. Sarno. I believe that was the case, yes, sir. 5 Mr. Wides. You had no understanding? 6 Mr. Sarno. Well, obviously once this thing came up, we 7 | put this fallow in contact with somebody in the base up there 8 who in turn delivered them to the Bureau. 9 Mr. Wides. And this was the Domestic Operations Base, not - 10 the Security Office? 11 Mr. Sarno. Domestic Operations. 12 |i Mr. Wides. Now thereafter, did they keep contact wit- 13 this group? WARD & PAUL 14 Mr. Sarno. I cannot recall. 15 Mr. Wides. Did you continue after that incident to get 16 reports through | 17 Mr. Sarno. I believe so, yes. 18 Mr. Wides. With no indication whether they were also in 19 touch with the Agency? 20° Myre Sarno. No, sir. \ 21 Mr. Wides. You weren't curious, or did you ever inquire? 2°02 Mr. Sarno. Well, I would believe it to be that they were 23 not in contact with anybody up there, because if the report 410 First Street, 5.E£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 24 || were to come down, they would probably have indicated in their 25 report that they had passed this information on. HW 50955 Docld:32%02440 Page 41 FrAD CEFDET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 11 le 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20° 21 22 23 24 29 Bocld:3 TOP SECRET 50 Mr. Wides. No, I mean after that, after they were put in touch with the base. Mr. Sarno. That's what I was speaking of. Many reports that came there after, they would have indicated that it had been passed, and I don't recall ever reading a report from them that he had passed the information on to any contact up there. Mr. Wides. Do you recall any instance in which the Agency asked, through you, and in turn through @iga particular people in New York be watched or investigated? Mr. Sarno. No, sir. Mr. Wides. How would they decide what groups or what individuals to penetrate or keeo under surveillance? Mr. Sarno. Well there were the active groups. This fallow used to come down to Miami and he would talk to[ I [and [sould tell him, here is people here who are talking about collecting money, about a supposed operation, how much money are they getting for it -- Mr. Wides. Where would he get that information from, from you? Mr. Sarno. Get what? Mr. Wides. Where would _ get that -- Mr. Sarno. The MI group knew more about what was going on in Cuban operations in the Miami area than we did, so most of the information we obtained was through them. 02440 Page 42 TAD GECRET
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S-E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 11 le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° al 22 23 24 29 oral instructions when you were in Washington or Miami to isee TOP SECRET 51 Mr. Wides. So how would he get the information about potential targets in New York? Mr. Sarno. Because they had the groups down in Miami penetrated, so in Miami, these groups in Miami, would discuss their contacts with the splinter group sitting up in New York and the information would come about. t Mr. Wides. You never got any written instructions or if you could arrange for this person to get information on People in New York? Mr. Sarno. Never. Never once. Mr. Wides. What about picketing in New York by Cuban personnel? There's some reference to that in testimony we've already received. Mr. Sarno. There is one incident of the Mexico -- I think it was against Mexico, where they went to an affair or somethin and threw out leaflets. Mr. Wides. What about picketing of an airline company or an airline office? Mr. Sarno. I heard that that took place, but I was not in Miami at the time. I was away on a trip. Mr. Wides. But your understanding was it involved AMOS personnel? Mr. Sarno. This individual was involved in it. Mr. Wides. And what did you understand had been the DoclId: 32002440 Page 43 TOPs SECRET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 lil le 14 15 16 17 18 19 20: el 22 23 24 25 TOP SECRET 52 origins of the picketing? How would it come about? Mr. Sarno. Well, I don't believe it was started, I know it wasn't started in SM%UMS because one individual cannot start it, but the groups, the Cuban exile groups who were located in New York decided to picket it because, I believe, of Mexico's relations with Cuba. Mr. Wides. At this time, wasn't the Agency ‘carrying on a Wide variety of operations to try and isolate Cuba economically and. commercially? Mr. Sarno. I believe they were, -:yes. I was never involved in any of those operations. Mr. Wides. And including air traffic people, airlines going to Cuba. That was one aspect of the efforts. to isolate Cuba. Mr. Sarno. Well, the airlines» going to Cuba, if I can racall at that time, were not Mexican airlines. Mr. Wides. You didn't have any idea at the time as to what -- Mr. Sarno. Mexican airlines do not fly to Cuba. The Cubans always flew their airplanas over. The Mexicans were not flying. Mr. Wides. So you understood this to be harrassment of a Mexican Company or a Mexican national company, because of Mexico's general relations with Cuha? Mr. Sarno. General relations with Cuba, that is what I Docld: 322702440 Page 44 TOP GECBRET
Phone {Area 202) 544-6000 10 ll le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 el 22 235 24 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 25 20° TOP SECRET | 53 understood it to be. Mr. Wides. And you didn't have any information that the Agency was aware of it beforehand? Mr. Sarno. No, sir, I was never involved in it. I don't recall ever seeing the reports or anything, because as I say, I did an awful lot of travelling when I handled the @UmgRS | Mr. Wides. When you discussed this with the people at the Agency, is your testimony that you never heard any indica- tion that the Agency was involved in that picketing? Mr. Sarno. That is -- Mr. Wides. No one's ever suggested -- Mr. Sarno. Nobody ever suggested that the Agency was the One who backed the people who did the picketing, no. Mr. Wides. Now was there a time when Gui personnel who had not moved outside of the Miami area were ever used or involved in any Agency Operations to your knowledge outside of Miami, went on trips to do little jobs? Mr. AS} went out of Miami in order to do little jobs -- Mr. Wides. I don't mean to Cuba. Mr. Sarno. No, they went out of Miami to do little jobs like for instance a specialist in say, sugar, would say come out of Cuba through Spain and he‘d end up in New York, and so an @ilh would go from Miami to New York to debrief him. Or we would haar of somebody who knew of a well=known government HW 50955 Docla: 37202440 Page 45 TOP GECRET
TOP SECRET 54 L figure in Cuba who came out and he goes to Louisiana or he 2 goes to Chicago. Well, an QU} would be dispatched over to his Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 3 house to dabrief him. That is the only places I ever sent the 4 || GGG or the Amys were ever sent. 5 Mr. Wides. What about with regard to surveillances or 6 breaking or entering? 7] Mr. Sarno. Never. 8 Mr. Wides. Mr. Sturbitz, do you know him? 9 Mr. Sarno. Sturbitz? 10 Mr. Wides. He was involved in economic warfare against ll Castro. 2 12 Mr. Sarno. Sturblitz or Sturbitz? 13 Mr. Wides. Sturbitz. 14 Mr. Sarno. Yes, I know Sturbitz. 15 Mr. Wides. He testified he conducted some inquiries in 1g | regard to the question of pst involvement in possible illegal eee 1? activities, breaking and entering, surveillance and so forth. 18 Were you aware of those investigations? 19 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 20- Mr. Wides. Have you ever heard any charges or allegations 21 || OF suggestions that ge personnel were involved in breaking 22 and entering in New York against groups like the Fair Play For 23 Cuba Committee, the Vinceremos Brigade? Se 2A Mr. Sarno. No, sir, no, sir. 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 Mr. Wides. And you never heard anything about the use of HW 50955 Docld: 329709440 Page 46 Trra pb “4d al) ET
TOP SECRET 55 Gums, in regard to any kind of harrassing action against those a groups? Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 %) Mr. Sarno. No, sir, never. 4 Mr. Wides. Do you know if any members 5 heen used in thase kinds of activities without your express 6 direction or not as part of its CIA task? 7 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 8 Mr. Widas. You never heard anything about it? 9 Mr. Sarno. Naver heard. LO Mr. Wides. In Florida also? il Mr. Sarno. In Florida also. le Mr. Wides. What about with regard to Puerto Rico and 13 Qs going there. Tell us about that. WARD & PAUL 14 Mr. Sarno. Well, there were several aime who left Miami 15 and went over to Puerto Rico. There is a large Cuban community 16 in Puerto Rico with the attendant Cuban exile groups, and it 1? was the same thing as was going on in New York. They would 18 collect data on what these groups were doing, operations that 19 they were preparing, funds that they were collecting, et 290.) catera. 21 Mr. Wides. Did vou see those reports as they came in? 2° Mr. Sarno. Yes, they came in and] sould prepare 24 them and send them into the office. 24 Mr. Wides. When did they start including reports on 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 || Puerto Rican affairs? WW 50955 Docld:39202440 Page 47 TAD GECRET
TOP SECRET | 3 56 @ 3 1 ' Mr. Sarno. Never. 3 3 2 Mr. Wides. No discussion in those reports -- ; 3 Mr. Sarno. Never once did they write up about Puerto 4 || Rican political affairs. I never once saw a report. 5 Mr. Wides. Did -you ever have any discussion with| | 6 or anyone involved in the Puerto Rican Cuban community about 7 | Puerto Rican affairs? 8 Mr. Sarno. Never. 9 Mr. Wides. Was there a station operating at that time 10 for the Caribbean in Puerto Rico? Ll Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 2 12 Mr. Wides. During the entire period, '61 til about '67? 13 Mr. Sarno. To my- knowledge, there wasn't.. There was 2 14 not a station. 15 Mr. Wides. Do you want to go ahead? 16 Mr. DeMarco. Just a couple. 7 You mentioned, or it was touched upon earlier, the 18 period of time you were actually in Cuba, 1961. € i} 19 Mr. Sarno. 60 and 61. 20. Mr. DeMarco. What’ requirements were levied upon you when 21 || you left to go to Cuba?) 20 Mr. Sarno. None. 93 Mr. DeMarco. Well, you'd better explain that. I don't 24 understand that answer at all. You just went on a vacation? 410 Fiest Street, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 25 Mr. Sarno. I was transferred from a foreign country to HW 50955 Docld:39202440 Page 48 TOP GECBRET
Phone (Area 262) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 Fiest Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 ll le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20> el 22 235 24 29 FOP SECRET 57 Cuba because they needed me. Mr. DeMarco. What foreign country were you transferred from? Mr. Sarno. I don't think that I. should State that. Mr. DeMarco. I insist that you answer that.. Mr. Wides. Let's go off the record. (Discussion off the record.) | Mr. DeMarco. For tha record, I think I should explain to you that we are highly interested in the sort of activities that you were involved in in Cuba in 1960 and '61, but our investigation has to a certain point been slowed down by the inability to obtain the right kinds of documents and that being the case, and your insistence here on not answering certain questions, will require us to simply have you come back once we have cleared this up with your superiors at the Agency and once they have been more forthcoming with documents that were long ago requested about your activities. I don't want to pursue just suspicions with you, I'd rather talk to you about specific dates-and facts. We ara going to pursua this very vigorously, and the reason I'm interested in it is the gambling background, and I would lika to know your training in that area, your experienc in that area and the reasons why you wera down there. Now if there is anything you want to tell me now, or do you want to come back -- DocId:32~02440 Page 49 Trp GECRET
Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 LO 11 le 13 WARD & PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 el 22 25 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, B.C. 20003 eae) HY 50955 Doactld:3 20° iVP SECKEI! 58 | Mr. Sarno. Sure, I'll tell you now. I was in a country - and I don't think I have to name the country because you are interested in Cuba and you ars interested in the operation that I had in Miami and I don't think you're interested in what I did before I went to Cuba. I tell you that nobody gave me any instructions when I went to Cuba. I knew the Chief of Station in Cuba and had known him for many years. He asked for me specifically to come over for my abilities or qualifications or experience. I climbed on an airplane and I went to Cuba. | I met the Chief of Station and he told me what he wanted | me to do. | Mr. DeMarco. What's his name? Mr. Sarno. Mr. DeMarco. You meat@im@e)  |jand he told you what he wanted you to do? What did he tell you? Mr. Sarno. He told me he wanted me to set up a Stay-behind net in Cuba because the situation was getting very bad and he would like to set a stay-behind net up in Cuba. Mr. Wides. This is with the break in Cuban relations? Mr. Sarno. That's right, the pending break in diplomatic relations and the rest of the things, and he wanted to set up a net over in Cuba. And that is why he called for me. Mr. DeMarco. Okay. So you -- Mr. Sarno. I went into Cuba and did not hava a job. I had 02440 Page 50 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET 59 8 S @ z 1 no cover. I went in as a tourist, a tourist can wear thin so 3 3 2 I had to scrounge around in different ways. w had a brother- 4 3 3 in-law who was a professional gambler. When I was a kid, he 4 died. He taught me a little about gambling, so I used to go 5 to the black jack tables and I would win money here, there and 6 the other place. 7] Mr. DeMarco. Is this the hotel black jack tables 8 predominantly? 9 Mr. Sarno. No, they had black jack, roulette, they had 10 baccarat. I would go in there, I would make myself seen, they 11 would see that I was wearing good clothes and I was winning 12 money at the gambling tables and that's it. 13 I am not to be tied into any Syndicate or anything like WARD & PAUL 14 it. I didn't know a single soul. 15 Mr. DeMarco. You knew no one? 16 Mr. Sarno. Nobody. 17 Mr. DeMarco. And your task then, which you learned on 1a arriving there, was to set up a network? : 19 Mr. Sarno. To set up a network of agents in Cuba, yes. : 20° Mr. DeMarco. So you started meeting people to do that? 21 Mr. Sarno. No. , : 99 We never meet people to do that. : 23 Mr. DeMarco. Describe to me how you did it. ©: 24 Mr. Sarno. People ware spotted by other individuals and ¢ 25 they're checked out, and once they're chacked out and their HW 50955 Docld:39202440 Page 51 TOR SECRET
Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 HW 50955 10 11! le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° a1 22 25 24 20 Boclda:3 TOP SECRET 60 clearance is obtained on them, they are delivered to me for me to handle and train-.and what have you. Mr. DeMarco. I See. Ware any of those Americans? Mr. Sarno. No, I never spotted any Americans. There were two Americans over there who were already working, and they were given to me to use as, to handle some of the other ones that were involved. Mr. DeMarco. Were thev also involved in the same type of cover you were, gambling? | Mr. Sarno. No. They were not in the same cover. As I say, it was a. cover provided by the Agency. It was.a cover I just naturally stumbled into since I was going to the different casinos and I was winning money there and I could pass myself off as a tourist-gambler. Mr. DeMarco. These other two Americans you were talking about, can you name them? Mr. Sarno. Well, I'll give you the name. One I would name, because I was not involved with the other one very long. One's name is Emelio Rodriquez, but he is dead now. Mr. DeMarco. He was an American? Mr. Sarno. Yes, he died of a heart attack. And the other was Julian. Mr. DeMarco. Julian? Mr. Sarno. Julian. I don't recall the last name, but he © 02440 Page 52 | TAB GEFDET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 50955 WARD & PAUL 10 ll le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° 21 22 235 24 25 Bocld:3 TOP SECRET 61 only remained for about two months after I arrived. Mr. DeMarco. What were these two people doing in Cuba prior to the time they were turned over to you and you met them? Mr. Sarno. Collection of intelligence. Mr. DeMarco. For the Agency? Mr. Sarno. Yes, for the Agency. They were agents of the Agency, as was I. But they were residing in Cuba. Mr. DeMarco. At any time while you were in Cuba, for that matter, at any time, did you become aware of any Agency relationships with -- I'm going to use the term generically -- organized crime. Do you understand what I mean by that? Mr. Sarno. Yes, certainly. Mr. DeMarco. Whether or not organized, people who you've read about in the paper, or you would consider to be involved in that kind of business, are you aware of any relationships between any Agency personnel in Cuba or elsewhere? Mr. Sarno. None whatsoever. Mr. DeMarco. During the period of time that you were in the casinos, playing black jack and roulette and so forth, did you get an opportunity to meet the people that were running the casinos? Mr. Sarno. No. There was one big Swede jn. the Capri that because it was close to where I was living I would go in there more often, and Pa 02440 Page 53 TC) CECDET
TOP SECRET | 8 62 é @ s 1 as soon as I take off from my house, my apartment, I would 2 head over there and he was always seeing me in and offer me ; 3 drinks, but he was not a big wheel, he was just one of their 4 employees. | 5 Mr. DeMarco. Where was this? 6 Mr. Sarno. At the Capri. 9 Mr. DeMarco. You say a big Swede? 8 Mr. Sarno. A bigq Swede, a blond-haired fellow. I didn't 9 even know his name, I'd just call him Swede. 10 Mr. DeMarco. Was he an American, or from Sweden? Ll Mr. Sarno. I think he was from America. - 2 12 Mr. DeMarco. Were any of the peovle that you were & -t 13 involved in handling in Cuba commercial or airline people? 3 14 Any airline people? 15 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 16 Mr. DeMarco. Did any of them have official Cuban govern- 17 Ment positions? 18 Mr. Sarno. Yes. 19 Mr. DeMarco. They did? 20: Mr. Sarno. Some of them did, those were the ones that 2] you were looking for. 22 Mr. DeMarco. I don't have anything more at this time. 23 Mr. Wides. I am just a little puzzled by yaur testimony lagaeactivity with regard to the Cuban community 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 24 regarding the @ii 25 You indicated there was a CI capability, but if I understand HW 50955 Doclad: 34202440 Page 54 Te. B A2@EfDET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL HW 50955 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° zl 22 29 24 25 TOP SECRET 63 it, you said the only penetration was for’ purposes of finding out about exile activities baing planned against Cuba. What was your testimony with regard to the use of AOU e for members of the Cuban community who might come under suspicion as possibly being intentionally or unintentionably -- | Mr. Sarno. Suspect? Mr. Wides. They were employed or they were not employed in any way regarding checking on this? Mr. Sarno. If you mean to say did they go around and surveil them -- Mr. Wides. No. In any sense of counterintelligence work, keeping their ‘ears open and reporting back information that might be of a suspicious nature. | Mr. Sarno. Well, to explain it, if an Gg were to walk into a place and see a friend and the friend says did you see Juan, do you know Juan is here, and the @IWGi} himself knows and the guy he's talking to that Juan used to work for the Internal Security in Cuba, it's obvious. Where's he at, try to find him. And then they would go back to thea files and dig out all the information and in would come a report. “Juan is in the city of Miami and here's the stuff that we have on him. He was a Castro collaborator, or he's a member of :-the security forces over there, and everything. Mr. Wides.. So.in general it would be fair to say -- and Docld: 32002440 Page 55 TOD GECDET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 10 11 12 13 WARD @&@ PAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 el 22 25 410 First Street, S.E.. Washington, D.C. 20003 24 29 HW 50955 20 Docld: 34202440 IVP SECKE Is 64 I'm not trying to twist your testimony, I know you referred to the basic purpose baing to keep tabs on what was going on so you would be aware of what Alpha~-66 and groups like that were planning, but in- general, they were the eyes and ears of the Station in the Cuban community and might come up with counterintelligence information as well as the information about the activities? Mr. Mr. this was Mr. Mr. but they CI, that Sarno. Yes, .sir, yes, sir. Wides. And as you understand it on a smaller scale, also true with regards to the group in New York? sir. Sarno. Yes, Wides. It was not simply to find out about Alpha-66, would also report to the extent that they obtained is counterintelligence information, about the Cubans in New York? Mr. Mr. the UN? Mr. Mr. time? Mr. Mr. Sarno. Yes, gir. Wides. What about with regards to the activities at Any reports regarding UN activity relative to Cuba? Sarno. No, sir. Wides. Was there a Cuban mission at the UN at this Sarno. Yes, sir. Wides. And this group never relayed any information regarding the Cuban mission or the people they contacted in New York? Page 56 TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET 8 65 $ ¢ o 1 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. N is] i 2 Mr. Wides. Why wouldn't they have been used for that F 3 purpose? : 4 Mr. Sarno. Because that is the Bureau's domain. We never 5 checked up on Cubans, the diplomats who were in the UN, nobody 6 was ever in contact with them, they never reported on any " Cuban diplomats in the UN or any of the Cubans seeing them or 8 anything. 9 Mr. Wides. Did you ever hear any stories whether they or.not.of Cuban exiles being (aa ct 10 Were associated with Amur, 11 involved in any harrassment or surveillance of groups in 12 | America friendly toward the Castro regime, such as the 13 Vinceremos Brigade and the Fair Play For Cuba Committee? WARD & PAUL 14 Mr. Sarno. No, sir. 15 Mr. Wides. You were not aware of any activity by exiles? 16 I'm not talking about necessarily AMUS, 7 Mr. Sarno. Not of any activities. 18 Mr. Wides. You never heard anything? 19 Mr. Sarno. I never heard anything. 20: You're smiling. I'm telling you, I never heard anything. 21 Mr. Wides. What about Cubans in the late ‘60's after the 20 Vietnam War arose, being involved, Cuban exiles, in any 23 harrassment or surveillance of peace groups? What do you know 24 about that? 410 First Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 26003 25 Mr. Sarno. Nothing. HY 50955 DBocld: 33702440 Page 57 TFG EEfDET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL - 410 First Street, S.£., Washington, D.C. 20003 HW 450955 10 ll le 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20° el 22 235 24 £9 Bocld:3 TOP SECRET 66 Mr. Wides. Do you know anything about Cubans coming up from Miami to be involved in surveillance or disruption of any peace demonstrations in Washington? Mr. Sarno. No, sir. Mr. Wides. You never haard of that? Mr. Sarno. I never heard of it. I know no never heard of any other Cubans. Mr. Wides. Is there anything else that you -- have you gotten a clear understanding of our lines of interest? Mr. Sarno. Yas, I have. Mr. Wides. -- would like to tell us, or any information - Mr. Sarno. I have no information. I ran a group there and we were never involved in anything which I would consider to be illegal. They were working against the government of Cuba. Mr. Wides. I understand that. Mr. Sarno. “and that is where all of their energy went. Mr. Wides. Who was it who would ask you to have members WS detailed for missions elsewhere in America? You described one where they would go to another city to debrief somebody. Mr. Sarno. I would -- Mr. Wides. How would you get those instructions? From the Branch Chief? Mr. Sarno. No, I wouldn't get the instructions. Since it 027440 Page 456 TOD GECRET
Prone {Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 HW 450955 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Bocld: 3 TOP SECRET 67 was a group and we were collecting economic and political intel -- Mr. Wides. Where would you get the information that’ there was a target of opportunity or someone to be debriefed in another city? Mr. Sarno. If the Goiy® were to come up with the informa- tion, if the ip were to come up with the information, he would come in and report it and I would authorize him to go into that city and find him, because the information could come in many ways. See, they were known as the Cuban municipalities and Operations in the city of Miami, and everybody that came out from like a provinca or a state would register in it, and as soon as they got information, the word would get around that Joe Blow cama in or something like that, and the word would get GS and the Gu back to the 4S would say, well, wa should discuss with this fellow, and that’s it. Mr. Wides. You never got any requests for @Mium@) personnel to ba made available for that kind of task from Washington? Mr. Sarno. To debrief an individual? Mr. Wides. Or to travel in general. ‘Mr. Sarno. Yes, yes, they would come down and say, we would like a person because Washington would hear of an individual and would like for him to go over and debrief. Mr. Wides. What office? 07440 Page 59 Tah iP GEC RET
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 20003 HW 50955 LO li 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Re 235 24 29 TOP SECRET 68 | Mr. Sarno. It would come out of the Cuban branch. | Mr. Wides. diban. Operations Task? | Who would come down? Just a mamber of the staff? Mr. Sarno. Come down? They usually came in a cable. It said, you know, we understand such and such a person is living at such and such an address and they worked at such and out to debrief. such, suggest send an Hivus Mr. Wides. Did you have a particular point of contact. or several people who were particular points of contact for you that would tend to be the ones sanding you cables? Mr. Sarno. No, I wasn't the Station Chief. The cables come into the station, the Station Chief would pass it to me or to the Branch Chief, and that would be it. Mr. Wides. Okay. I think that's all the questions we have, and I want to thank you for your patience, it's been a long morning. (Whereupon, at 12:42 o'clock p.m., the hearing recessed.) pocra:3 702440 Page 60 TO) P SECRET :