ween & fawn Range tte M1t 8 ant Neem AE Lia Postal. When was that, do you know? Shimon. Somatime that sama Year. Postal. tlad they bean coming from someplace todather? meee. Mr. Shimon. No, thay met here. Johnny was hara. If had him in the Hay-Adama -- not the Ilay-Adams, tha Hamilton Hotel. | We did our drinking in tha Purple Room and Jim came over. Hr. Postal. Well, let's focun for 4 minute on the sulte in ths Fontainbleau when Johnny was talking about the polson. What wera Sam's reactions to what Johnny was talking about? Nas he saying enything thera? Mr. Shimon. We was nittine thers with a player, he had (a thing in his ear. We wan Listening to all of Sinatra's tacaa, Sinatra would sand tham dow. -- fea, this Stnetra wan a rea) bain to us. Ha was a qreet admirer ~- ha junt adorad Sam or “anybody. fia'd be callina down svery fifteen minutes wanting "to come down. San Bays, no, don't let the big mouthe! guinea in here. ‘You know, he blew off Lucky Luciano with that bia mouth of hia. end ‘ff he gets any wind of this it wlll be all over, because he'll brag about it. So ha kapt sending thess tapes down and than he woul! cell, didi Sam like i¢ San was listaning to the tapes. Ilalf of th. “thine he does:.'t know whet wa'ra talking about and ha doasn't Care. And {f you knew Sam at all, he'a the most datashed sus in the world. You kuow, you'ra din ths room and he doagn'+ Kaw what you'ra talking ahout. Ne doesn't care, other than he'd -FOP-SECRETF
me [Aree POP) $44 6008 RaAeD & Coun Warne in th) Seon tr 8 wal Vtemet AE ‘laugh at soma of thesa thinga, you know, these Jamas Bond | people calling, CIA quyms, you know, kill Castro. t Mr. Postal. What about fob Maheu, what was his reactlon? Mr. Shimon. ‘wll, now, Bob was very serious. foh was, at (that tima, having a show. After all, he was on the payroll, they were paying the rent on 19th Streat, CIA paid all the Tent, all the expanses, and he wan vary narfoun about it, he took this thing Seriously because ha sold the program, T undar- ‘stand it was his origina] idea, Mr. Dawson. Whare do vou aat that understandina Crom? ‘tr. Shimon. [ got that from Sam aivl Johnunav qanarally. ‘We were talking about dt. The firet thint t said wan how tn ‘the hell dows he coma up with you quys#, iwvou know. Well, i¢ Was his idea. Ie put it altodathar, and Johnny's a qreat flagwaver and strictly -- in anite of his backaround, he's er. -AlL wlerican quy, wave tha flag, stand up and sina the Star - Spangled Bananas, as we call it, but Sam wasn't, you couldn't even draf¢ him, he didn't want any vart of it, wr. Dawson. Did thav tell you or relate to vou in é@nv wav When the first contact with “ahanu, when he had fires haan contactad by Maheu? ‘ir. Shimon. No, gansral conversation. [ imaqina any of the trips, Rob was travalling back and forth avary Wank to the ‘West Coast and Vagas, so it could have hapnened anv tima. It {Could not have heen directly to Sam. I don'® think he talked
ween & Pa 1 { to Sam. 4 2 | Johnny probably broudht Sam into it hecause Sam was not $ | Permitted to come to Nevada, he was barred, the whole blacklint,. dH you know, sO I imagine Dob had to go to Chicago to talk to him. wien Johnny and introduce him, because t don't think Bob knew | Sam, because Sam was out of the picture, he could not come to | Veaas. Mr. Dawson. Waa it your imorasaion that he had a lona  Yelationship in reqard to thin assassination attempt? Mr. Shimon. Wo. No. I think Noh waa tryina to hustla up or trying to gat the contract for soma of the Vadans businers te - and he had some of it and he alrsady had a stood cliant, hed Milton Nearle wan one and another muy wan a client. This wag running two or thresa thousand dollars a month trying to i set up the guy'a wife in New York. Mr. Dawson. Do you have any spacific racollection that ; there had been a lonastanding ralationshin to try to assassinate Castro? Mr. Shimon. My feeating was that this thing came to a haa?! in the hope -- that the wholes thing came to « head riqht thers dn the Fontatnbleau, because I hac a faaling that Sam did not -” ow anything about it until thet dav. ‘Mr, Postal. What about Johnny? “tr. Shimon. Johnny, t had a feeling, had talked and knew a a lot about it. In fect, there ha@ baan a maating and he was
Bann © eae Be bent Neem * NP oy MEE AW pret 2 } tO Meet somebody. So thare had to be soma contacts made before. It waan't just a quick contact. ! | Mr. Postal. Did you ask Johnny about 1+? H| Mr. Shimon. No, no. All my convarration about this, ‘more Vor less -- sea, I was not close to Johnny, really, it was Sob. | nob seid, look, this {9 a Bureau thing, we're setting it up, this is what they want done, you know how they operato, did not “want to talk about it. Mr. Postal. It was a furaau thing? Mr. Shimon. What we call the Nurean in the CIA, ‘tr, Nawhon. Rub vou don't know that they hac a lona relutionshin? fe ves dust vour asavimetion and vour Caaline, ix that corract? Nr. Shimon. 1 don'* beltave it was a long relationshin. Iocan tall you why. fT think tha first thing -- and this fa ce own opinion -- tha first thing that ‘lahau wes doina “or CIA wes is tha Nominican Rapublic. Mr. Rhea. And what. was tha’? ‘tr. Shimon. Salling them a lot of aquipmsnt and dotnad a lot of work, because when ‘lorris Ernst got into tha oletuse, the CIA amd Trujillo, No! stepped out and said to me, do you want that contract to work with thes !eonla down thera, thare'y « lot of money in de. And fo safd, 1 don't want any part of “Trujillo. So he turned tha contract over to Johnay Frank whe Worked fu hia office. Johnny used to be a CIA aqant and an mre
weet @ Fawr Wopatengtem fee o BU Beet eee i And then you know Johnny, who waa convictad of fatting to jl Feaister apa foreiqn aqant, but then he handled tha thing, an? 4 ithe thing got real hot, and then whan thay killed Galendas (7) 5 j and Rob wanted to nhaka ald knowladga of that, élthough they 6 |had Bob and Johnny Frank right by the red onas on that, although 7 they couldn't prove it. 8 So that I think was a CIA thing Originally, and that qoes to the tims that the rent waa beinaq paid and all. MR. Postal. Did Rob evar pay you about work ha did for the 1: CIA in qatting women for foretan leadars, or anvthing Ilka thet? ‘ir. Shimon. Not for tha CIA, ha did | ‘] hh . le | Pepartment. That was this auy in’ p— i 1a 1 got the broads hare for him. 1 gava him tha numbar of the i Dh {call girla. State Papertment paid for it. A former Bureau adent, used to be Styles Bridges’ i py ladministrative assistant and thay out him ovar thera in charce of State geacurity, you know that maant thav wantad to put evoeryvuody on lis detsctor teses to see how many homosasxuals, and than they mada him the Ambansador to Ireland. Jae2z, 1 cow! talk ¢11 day about that nut. fle would be the ona to call u . sp ‘girls J and of coursa, in the Departmant, all ” Thad to do was go to the file to qat anv'inumbar of call airis wi thet we had on file, half of them ware our own informers, an . i fay take your pick, |
want e eau aa ae loon aio ee oT Mss mt = wo Maw bP Mr. Pontal. Whon you wera down in Mlami at the Fontalsbleay, jot you have any occanion to sea any FRI agents around? Mr. Shimon. Wall, I am sure thera ware two FBI adents and I'll tell you why. Woe were slitting in the Noom Room Room and of all people, Paul Young that owns Paul Young's restaurant and the fellow that owns the Dlake Construction Company, who's now dead, Jaka somebody, they came in and joined. us, and they Came in, Paul recognized me, cama in and sat down at the table and they brought a couple of broads, that's all we neaded. So wa'ra aitting around and IT happan to qlance at the itabla adjoining us, working through a manu in a quy taking 7 picturas with a camara of tha whole tabla. Ant t tust sald co ‘Bob, hay, 1 gaid, fada, somabody’s takiad pictures, cat fam out of hare first and let's sae who's drawing tha heat. San would bs the natural guy to draw heat. And surs snough, Sam qot up and sauntered out of the ' Boom Room ttoom, and with that, thasea two fellows aot up and walked out bahind him. So Bob and 1 dromped behind therm. So Sam saunterad all eround thoss longa halls, if you'ra familiar with the Fontainblseau, you can walk for &@ weak, ai: these agents behind him, and auddanly the auants discovarad i we Worse behind them, and thay ducksd into tha roan, and into ons of the bara ant sat down. Postal. Did you aaa him anv mors durind tha wWeeseen |) Shimon. ‘lo, we Warn on the look-out fer thar,
Pera 1Aree POP) 444 4008 Peet ® aun aL SO eiemetin. fre 2 rw ro Mr. Dawson. Do you know-who the two agents wera? Mr. Shimon. TI saw one of tham in Washington later, I know his name, bacauna ha kind of Jvoket at ma, I don't ‘think he wan happy with ma for soma reason or another. Mr. Postal. All riqht, t'd like to direct your attention now to a slightly differant | Period of tima, that ia the Las Vegas wiretap situation. \ fi To tha bant of your knowledqa,, was the CIA involvad “ that? it Mr. Shimon. Nevar, no way. Mr. Postal. What were the circumstances surrounding that? ‘Mr. Shimon. Sam waa {rn love with Phyllla -- you know, Sam waa a widowar, playina the field, but suddanlv he aot quite a case off for Phyllin, wild about her, in fact. Sha was playing Nevada, and of coursa, with Sam's connactiona, avarything wes at his fingertips, so tne little story got out that sha was playing around with af*her Rowan or Martin, I forqet which one was the Qrcat lover. And Sam was a very jealous fallow, Very possessive, and he wanted to know if this was the truth, vou kaow, if this was a cheatin’ broad, he didn’t want her around. $0 he got John there bacause he couldn'* come in, to qet : Mahet because he Knaw Maheu did thin sort of thing, or had this dons, to buy tha room, or whataver it waa. So Maheu deva the contract to a. fellow named Punoin, a
oe eR ty etn wes: 3S rire a +3, 5 arts ae ret F ‘S o” \ ‘formar friend and an agant in Miaml, and he brought two fallows ’ ‘in and thay made the inatallation, and than thay want into the why it blew. Now, of coursa, tha FRI aot into it and thav wanted an y indictment, a big investigation, and talkad to Rob, and Rob a ‘wan atanding still and wan supnosed to sit atill and not name i who hired him, and ha was sitting still. T talkad to him “ gimont every day, 1 wan holding hin hand, becauns ha wan ‘mearad, and the local agunts knaw that IT knew ‘ob verv well, they unad to kid me at police headquarters saving that frian? of yours is really soinda up tha ladder thia time, wa'ra qtolas to drep him. Hats sitting atill, but he's still qot to ao, ond anyway, he didn't ait atill too lond. But finally, ha cid nama, hea said, wall, I'll tall you, lL don’t know tha men that really hirnad me, other than they Called him Johnny. Wall, if vou said Johnny in Vaqas in those years, there was enlv Ons Johnny, ha ran tha whola strin, 90 the FAT went right to Johanv; of course, Johnny woultn'* tall tham anvthinn, a0 they wont on, rrocaesding to vranara an iadietmant. they Wore voting to indict Johnny end Boh. - Hob set uo hin own dafansa. Me appealed, f think, to ‘se Jim first and Sia Jim carried ths mansaca that if this thin: broke, hy would have te use the Castro thing ag a defanse.
Prawns tives FOP) $44 4008 RAPD © Faus A a iegrngt oes teewe 8, @teetey } 1 Hf ie in 4 1 ‘ i He was going to say that bacause of Sam'a knowledge, he was afraid that Sam miqht have been talking to Phyllis and Phyliis might be in bed with Rowan or Martin and telling them about it. Tt waa so farfatchad it was ridiculous, bur the CIA bought i¢, and they wont to tha Department of Justice and stoppad the indictment. Mr. Postal. All right, now, lat's nail down the timaframn and consider the facts hare. Sam paid for tha tap, is that riqht? Mr. Shanon. $5,000, That's accordin: to Sam's own ftatainant. Mr. Pontal. And that money was paid to hob Naheu and then Nob sent the contract out to Miami aryl to Dufotae and DuBoise sent the quys out?: Mr. Shimon. That's right. Mr. Postal. [8 {t possible that Not coutd have involve the CIA in the tap and you not knov about it? Mr. Shimon. It's possible, hut he could not sel] the CIA Or &@ tap likes that, becauss the story was ricdiculonun. Thersa'an n@ fools in the CIA, really. Thuev're no clunkers, Bob was Going the sort of thing that burnad Sam up and an a matter oF fact, it cooled us all off on Bob tha® he woul4t do a thing dike this, tjecausea it made Sam look ridiculous. The Quretu went right to Sam, too, you knew, and Sam nays, what do YOu Mean ¢ ‘a8 talkiig to some broad abou* something? This Is craav. Sem a1! 4% . bw a
Prare terse 207) $44 4008 maeo © fawn Sted IWF To PN ars 3 3 pass was nevar Known to hava too much mouth about anything, and par- tleularly to tell a girl that ha knaw something about a plot and she in turn waa sloeping with somabody elnea, and fob in the moantime wan chacking for a lank, why didn't ho check Johnny? Mtr. Pontal. Well, let mo ask you thin now, We have established the pilla wora panned in 1961. Mr. Shimon. It wan supposad to be a liquid. Mr. Postal. Liquid, I'm sorry. In the apring of 1961. fr. Shimon. Yos, Mr. Pontal. Do you know whon Lha Wiretap occurred? Shimon, Months lator. Postal. Tt appeared after this? Shimon. After thts, york, months later, Mr. Postal, the recerds at the Bureau at tha the wirctap as baling Metober of 1962, lane Ovtober 1960, Me. Shimon. No, they're wrong. tr. Postal. Is it possible that you could have been tn different time? ty. Shimon. to, | was onty th Onde, and fo as qoing tell vou cdy T know, because after bs tape asad abd the investigation, the i i : was Kt Jy cinany menting trset, the TRL interested Johnny Roselid on thu atreet ged shows?! hdim a piebure of a womaa wisn oa | Phede bow ant soa. we're the only aay that naww this. We know that You're van Alian, Your name is Soccoe,
+ PEE eT Sreaiary ene lig =~ PRE eet Gogh a ed Pg he hepa ‘oan who you'ra working for, and you're golnq to work for us or alsu you'ra going to ba deported. Now, Jolin immodfately got on tha phone, callad ma, came to New York and ha brought his attorney and wo talked about it, and ' co : slat then he cama to Washington and looked up tid Morgan, used to be an Inspector of the FBI, and said, what am I going to do about thia, and Ed's advice was why don't you work for thom, and I said, Ed, you're not talling thia guy to become a natool | piguon for tha FHI, are you, he won't be ative a wook. all And he said, woll, Lang Knoen Lohmann (7?) waa ia stool un for ten years and Llastod a tond time, and To just i | told Johnny to ferqat it. Mr, Pontal. The bunatnesn with the photewecann occurred wsen e eam a fow yuars later, didn't Lt? Mer. Shimon. Yeah, yoah. Mr. Postal. Let'n go back to the timeframa of 1960 and If we can place the timeframe in the fall of 1960 -- ’ “r. Shimon. That's not the tap I'm talking about, because roan! 1 had not met Sam in 1960 and T talked to Sam avout tnin in o60, erp, Postal. You talked about the wiretap to Sam in "EL? Ltr asteneton, 1 “Mr, Shimon. Neeause he called me all kinda of dirty maser: and this made him loow Like a reat bam, and then put the hea by sending dn the Sureau on it. BAe 6 one tert WE “rp. Poutal., Well, whan you get Sam dn Miamd and you
fnge% waht ern OC Bit Cyt Niro t Pew en tee Ege on Reece ERE IES 2 tary Probe ASS - if oe ORR te wero there with Johnny and Bob, had thera alreaily becn a wirotap in Las Vogas? Did thoy talk about the wiratap ao if it had already happend? Mr. Shimon. No, no conversation at all. Me. Postal. All right. Now, let mo ask you this. When Bob Maheu went to Big Jim O'Connell and said, look, hig Jim, ££ you don't help us with thin tap wo're going to tel! about the Cuban thing, had he been talking about the bottie of poinon that had happaned when you were in Miami, or waa ne talking about another timo? Mr. Shimon, tte was talking about the bottle of paisen ani that particular trip. That wan suppose) to be patted on that trip. Mr. Postal. That's waat he talned to Hig tim about? Mr. Shimon. No, not to Big Jim. “ty kaowledge, 1 hear him aiq Jim about that at all. wr, Postal. Well, let's see if we can qet this strarans, te wan pow that talked to Nig Jim? Mir. Shimon. He wan dea. We tae Ene, handing the CLA in and Bob was handling Jonnany. tr. Postal. Johnny. And fob said to "ia Jen, youlve gat to doe wometininy about ehin prosecution with the Justice Penartrent. Mp. hdmon, Well, whoever he aati that to, fither that wists
Tena Lares 207) $44 4008 he aaid it to nome fallow. There was another namu, Sisnon or fomethina, Mr. Poatal. What's the name? Shimon, Viana there a Sisson, some htyhber mia in the eats - fit? Over Wig Jim, and f['m qoing to tall you why. whan Johan 6 , Was talking to me after this, he said, okay, wo want you to tare ever cortain anpects of this security in Vedas, but wa don't want you to be tdentified with us, so wa Want you to bach tn. CIA han a project outaide of Vedan. You det on the payroll thore ome off the CIA payroll dnto VYeouant, no they won't &ie you ce wouldatt be oof any value if they thed me in, to the employers qadco te Lag Jaa, bow about that taind in Vewpan? ri? oT faa, talks to Bobiés frblene. Poevuy gp avtag can tell vou. dt wan one of the Agstatant oa ay. Postal. Does Bisnell sovnw ra: Shimon. “That's taght. He said, tell Wasn't that interested: pont wankte gee what PON wate the firs a Pim mot about too workin an the desert to ball up remotathon ans an touad, rb Wind ur da ott clade rt oniytet rt Wireis fina Piast, dave sou beard the some “btw . Poof onmectt: watag: tatty
FWARD/amni t. Shimon Mr. Postal. Lat's go back on the record. Mr. Shimon, wa would Lika to once again go through chronology of tha dator. We have certain documenta which suhsatantiata most of the details you have given us, but the dates wa ara having somo problems with. You are sure that you were in Miami at tho Fountainblau at the time of the Johanson-Pattorson fight? Mr. Shimon. No question, and IT saw the knockout and rode tack to the hotel) with Paul Young and Jake, and went uj- ntaire and went to Sinatra's suite and met the “overnor'a Counsel there, anc we had aA party, no question about LO. At. Danatra wap playing at the sane tare. Mr. Postoel. Where way he playing? ft. SHinon. In the Fountatndleu. Postal. At the Fountarnbleu. Mr. Shimon. Yes. “ep. Khea. Was that the same day that you saw this bias being passec? tr. Shimon. dicn’t see Ligure! bein: passa, Posta). That vou saw the hottle? “apo Saamonm. SIO. ot Badd the fad the Laguad. that teatiuan ‘aaah POoa ted UO qagekti rt "rp. Mia. Myer tty . sane oayehey Sr. La aimon, That niaht Or the mext obobt, ti that owbr.
of 24 or 48 hours, I couldn't really say. I know, the night wa saw the guy with the red hair, that's tho night that Johnny Puma [Moos 707) $44 4000 was supposed to pass it. Mr. Postal. Doas tha date March 12, 1961 gound about right? Mr. Shiwon. I know it was carly in the year. Yos. It was in the spring of the yoar. Mr. Postal. The spring of tha year? Is thera any way you can peg that? Did you hava vacation time or a weokend or soma avant that might fix it in your mind? Mr. Shimon. As I say, the only thing that fixes it in my mind, that's the only heavyweight fight t went to see outsicit mete me of Washington when we had heavyweight fightn here. When t used to run the Bureau, I used to have a pickpocket detail. used to go out and see that the boys were working. I wouldn't look at the fights. I wouldn't watch the bums out there. An: this one I had to sit through at ringside and watcn these two bums. That is why I remember. Mr. Postal. No you recall at that time anyone ghowinyg “>. a magazine article? Did Bob perhaps bring a magazine articles to your attention about Sam or any of the people tat were there? Mr. Shimon. No, but 1! had read a magazine article about Sam in one of the crime magazines, anc T was kind af surprise! that 1} mat him face to face there. I had read about him whore —IOP-SECRET—
fm ne (Aros 202) $44 6009 « 3 « ‘ e s « € he was supposed to ba responsible for 49 murders, where the last one was some guy they stuffod in the sewor, a nightclub owner, and that stuck in my mind whan I saw him that this is the guy I was reading about. Mr. Postal. How about the name Joo Traficantea? “Does that a bell? Mr. Shimon. No. Mr. Postal. Or Santos Traficante? Mr. Shimon. No. Mr. Postal. When you woro in Miam{, did Sam talk about the wiretap? Mr. Shimon. Not a word. Mr. Postal. When was the first time you heard about the wiretap? Was that after that? Mr. Shimon. After that, when Boh called me and said the FBI were going to indict him. Mr. Postal. So shortly after the time you were in Miami, Nob told you that the FBI was getting ready to indict him, for wiretap. Mr. Shimon. Right. Mr. Postal. And then he told you che story of the wiretap. In what timeframe did he place the wiretap. Did he tell you all about the wiretap sometime before? Mr. Shimon. No. I hava no timeframe other than there wan a wiretap, the boys had it, they blew dt and that the Bureau
had it, and there was a stink coming up. Mr. Postal. So {t was somothing that happened carlier. Mc. Shimon. Could have happaned earlier. This is when Prone (Area 202) 5444000 the Buraau was putting the heat on him. Mr. Postal. About the time you were in Miami. Shimon. No, this was after Miami. Poratal. Just after Miami. Mr. Shimon. Necausac it was shortly after --now, when the thing was finally settied, Bol) wan fired hy CIA -- now this is according to Sam -- and I suddenly realized nob suddenly piched up and moved, sold his house and moved to Californta, and wien I saw Johnny on one of his trips here, wondering why ho hadn't called. ‘Normally he would be calling Dob, and he said nomething, well, Bob's not in it anymore. And in subsequent years when I got talkiny about -- when I talked to Sam in later years about. this thing, he said well, you notice, Harvey took it over and they hac to get rid of that, as Harvey described it, dirty double-crossiny son of a bitch that blew the whole to save his own ass. Thir is the way Harvey described Maha, and in fact, he said to Johnny, somebody ought ta hill that fon of a bitch. Mr. Postal. Have you mat tilt Harvey? Mr. Shimon. I know who he is. IT didn’t meat him. le used to have an office here, and hang around the Madison Hotei. Ioset up the seeurity at the Madison, so ft knew
naAO & PAE oor) ne DLO Eat Newet ST, aati te Of course, I used to put Johnny in thoro and then Harvay would come in to soe him. Mr. Portal. Whon did Harvoy's association with Johnny begin, do you know? Mr. Shimon. It began, I boliova, after they fired Mahau. Mr. Pontal. Do you know when that would be? Mr. Shimon. This would bo after the Department of Justice agrood not to prosecute Mahau, and then CIA had to dump Maheu and get him off tho payroll. Mr. Postal. How long after tho time you were in Miami? Mr. Shimon. Months. This would have toa ba some months. Mr. Postal. A few months, a lot of months? Mr. Shimon. I would say five, six, seven months. [t would have to be that much time. Mr. Postal. Before the thing was finally put to rest? Mr. Shimon. Yes. NR. Postal. - So if you were in Miami, say, in March, you think it would be put to rest, when, around August or September? tir. Shimon. Yes. Why I know that, suddenly after it was) all put to rest, Johnny disappeared. Couldn't find Johnny anywhore, and Sam couldn't find Johnny. Tne CTA put Johnny undur wraps. Now, later I learned that Johnny was here. They hava a
wey @' en 4 2 8) ie | OF) I~ HW 53244 3 BARD @ Pav BID a Steet SE tmemetim, OC SOON! 33 hideout apartment. ite was doing things here. Whataver they had, they wore working back and forth, flying in and out. Big Jim was in on it because I said to Johnny one time, I said, you know, I can't understand this, you being in Washington all of those weeks and months and you didn't call ma, and he said Harvey told him not to call me because he said he's still close to that son of a bitch Mahau, and we don't want Maheu to know anything. Mr. Dawson. You said he's still close to that son of a bitch Maheu, he being -- Mr. Shimon. Me. Bocause he know I was still visiting with Bob, seeing boh, going out to the went coast, He didn't want Johnny to be telling me that -- soeing or having any “connection with Mahou. Mr. Postal. Well, let me step out of this timeframe and ask you one question. Did Johnny ever tell you that the Attorney General, Bobby Kennedy, had sent someone to him to be put in contact with | soma Cubans while he was at that apartment. in Washington? Mr. Shimon. No, no, he never mantioned that. Mr. Postal. Do you know the details of how Nig Jim took care of the prosecution with the Dapartment of Justice? Mr. Shimon, 1 think he visited the Attorney General, Mr. Poatal. Do you know when that was? “Big Jim wont? —T¥OP-SEERET-
WARD @ PAUL 216 Fant Sree, SO. Wewmneton, BC. P0090 3 * has ee ene ee Woe” Mr. Shimon. Big Jim. I get this from Big Jim himself because one time we were talking about Big Jim going to the Long Committee, and he said he had to go to the Long Comnittec to gat Bob bailed out, using the same excuses he used earlier. So I assume he did it using the samo excuse he used earlier. Mr. Postal. Let me ask you this. If we place the wiretap in 1960 in the fall of 1960, that's a half a year before you wore in Miami, would that change the way you feel about the time? Mr. Shimon. Tha only way I could explain that would be that it took the Bureau that long to work up their case on Bob. Thora miqht havo hean a lot of wirntaps, you know. Vey. ‘looked like a spider's wob. Everybody was tapped. They might have been building it all up, had Bob under surveillance or ‘ working on the boys, working on the guys. It might hava been rnonths before they decided to confront Bob with that. I can understand that, sure, how they could have waited all this tinc to finally say now, Bob, we want to talk to you. And that's procedura, Sure, that could happen. Mr. Postal. Did Bob tell you -- well, let me ask you -- -- did Bob first tell the Bureau that the CIA was involved in th: ' Vegas tap? Mr. Shimon. I don't think Bob over told the Bureau. | think if Big Jim was the one that went down, hoe was the ono that did it, not Bob. To my knowledge Bob has navor said anytlh::. TOP-SECRET
ABSIT: Prane {Ares 207) 344-4008 WARD & PAYVL B10 tact Street, SL mengion O14 20001 Opa és as 24 : assent the pap Petts TAT ete ee ae TNE RT eet Sages Hee i“ 4 . ee we Fs as best you can rocall it. Mr. Shimon. It was a convaraation about an attack or somebody was going to move in on Cuba. A lot of guys, recruite. guys, aro being trained down in the junglo somewhere, and the remark was made at the table, I hope Bobby or somebody holds this off until we get a crack with our program on Castro, becau :«: if we can knock him out, wo won't have to <= you won't hava to : do the other thing. Now, that's the gist of the thing. It meant nothing to me at tho time other than later on when there was the Day of Pigs, I ramombered that little conversation, that's all. Mr. Postal. Do you think it was Rob “Yaheu that made the comment? Mr. Shimon. It could have heen. It could have been Johs:.. I know it wasn't Sam hecause Sam -- Mr. Postal. Was that the only mention of Bobby? Mr. Shimon. If there was anything else said, 1 don't recall it. Mr. Dawson. You're not oven sure that he mentioned Robert Kennedy's name. Mr. Shimon. Yeah, right, I'm not sure who -- Mr. Postal. You thought thay moantioned someone namod Bobby? Me. Shimon. Yaah, I thought they said Bobhy or somebody like Bobby should hold this thing off, whoever had the power TOP-SECRET
Rash) totes WARD & PAUL 210 8 ant Steet. 8, Wentengtian, DC. 2000) to hold it off. Now, it could not have been a Kennedy. It . could have bean a Bobby anybody, but whoover they were talking about, it could have been somebody in the CIA, but I remember that because of tho Bay of Pigs, when the whole thing blaw up I remembered that part of the conversation, and they were ao sure that had their plan gone off, that the Bay of Pigs would not have been necessary. Mr. Postal. Do you recall how long after the Bay of Pigs it was before the Attornoy Goneral was talked to by eithor Big Jim or whoavor? Mr. Shimon. I don't know. I couldn't tell you exactly. Mr. Postal. Well, do you have any idea? Mr. Shimon. Well, I would say that same year or so because after that, I say, I lost track of Johnny other than the conversit:: once with Sam and I saw Bob from time to time. That was it. Mr. Postal. Did you keep in contact with Sam after this time? mr. Shimon. I wouldn't say in contact. Sam is a great guy for calling you 2:00, 3:00 o'clock in the morning from someplace and saying what's going on. lie did call several times and say what do you hear from Johnny. I hadn't heard anything from Johnny and neither had he. And Johnny was underground. And I remomber calling him one time, months pansed, what's happened to Johnny. You know, you figure somebody might have killed-him. And he said I don't know. I can't find out. -IOP-SECRET
Prame [Aree 2071 $44-4008 RAR O PAU .0¢ 279001 BLO Oye Sieews NO Marne an Pr rr Bob couldn't find out. Mr. Postal. Let mo ask you this. We have information to the effact that prior to the time you were in Miami, a substantial period of time prior, Sam _ had made 4 statement to someone who relayed it to the Bureau, : the Bureau being the FBI, that somebody was going to put somo pills in Castro's food or something like that. Did Sam ever tell you about an earlier, any information that he had previously about this kind of thing? Mr. Shimon. He nevor mentioned it. Now, I was undor the improssion that this was Sam's first venture with this because he really -- Mr. Dawson. But that's the only basin for it, so you could be wrong. Mr. Shimon. I could be wrong. Mr. Dawson. What you believe is otherwise. Mr. Shimon. Yes. Mr. Dawson. Okay. Mr. Shimon. Anyhow Sam talkad so many times about this -- so many times -- he would have told me about any earlier -- I think he would have mentioned it sometime. In fact, I think about a yoar ago last Christmas ho was at the house and wo kicked the whole thingy around, Haheu, the whole fiasco, and money, and you know, all the trouble it had brought, and hell, I think he would have brought it up. —TOP-SEERET-
39 ) | Mr. Postal. When Bob wont to the CIA after he had mentioned Johnny's name to the FBI agonts, did you gat the impranssion that Penne (hees 267) 9446-4008 3 ' he had worked this out with the CIA, or did you get the idea ra that he had to beat O'Connell over the head a4 Little bit before +- 4 Mr. Shimon. I don't know how he did other than he was 6 well thought of, and as I say, they wore picking up all the tabs, running the show. Robert A. Maheu Associates was the front. g ; So f guess he was in good standing. lie didn't have to beat So] 9 : anybody I don't imagina. g N _ Mr. Postal. Well, did he say he was going to have to 4 . } reveal the CIA's activity with Cuba or did he say Johnny was : “ ; -; going to? : @ : : Mr. Shimon. We was going to have to do it, not Johnny. q 7 * Ls Johnny wouldn't. 4 o +4, Mr. Postal. Bob said he would. 4 i. ve ; Mr. Shimon. Oh, yeah. 4 ‘. iv Mr. Postal. Did Johnny tell you at the time you were in 4 Miami when he got that bottie of liquid, how long he had had E: it? 4 Mr. Shimon. He didn't tell me. I thought that Bob had brought the bottle with him on the trip that I was with him on. I thought he brought it down, that night when wo wont to tho fight. That was my impression. Mr. Rhea. Pid anyone tell you that? 210 bart Wiest NE. Want, OC POOOS Mr. Shimon. No, but tho way tho bottle story came out, FOP-SEERET-
40 you know, we've got the stuff and Johnny's going to pass it. t ; I assumed ho just brought it in. | z 4 : ° dn Chicago? Mr. Postal. Do you remember the time when Sam suod the Fb! Shimon. I remember reading about it. Mr. Postal. You talked to Sam about it? Mr. 7? Mr. Shimon. Well, I talked to him a million times about it. a. Mr. Postal. Woll, lot me ask you this. Perhaps we could t~ 9 ° focus on that for a second. { “ : Do you recall Sam saying anything about the fact that he had takan the stand in that action? Mr. Shimon. Uo. a Mr. Postal. Pid he say anything about the fact that he weeaRO d PAVE had worked out a deal or that a daal had been worked out with the Department of Justico relativa to him? Shimon. He never worked out any deal. He just said Mr. he was so damn aick and tired of being harrassed. fie just said to his lawyer, let's harrass those bastards, and that's tho way he put it. And he said he sure harrassed them, and he got a ruling in his favor. Mr. Postal. Did Sam ever talk to you about Hobby Kannedy? fr. Shimon. No. Mr. Postal. ile never Mantioned Bobby Kennedy to you? Mr. Shimon. Not that I recall. It might have been Bobby B10 fee Ntewet NE, Wremengian 19 C, 2000) Kennedy, tho Attorney Genoral, he might have menticnod the “TOP-SECRET
ema 14 r amet: & PAVR ‘ 8 est \hreet A, Waengion, Of Foon * ~ TOP SEEREF 41 ' Attorney General, but there was no fooling, no personal expression, none, nothing about Kennaody. Mr. Postal. id Sam ovor say to you that it was his opinion that tho FDI was out to get him? Mr. Shimon. Oh, yes, because wa talked about what suddenly brought all the heat on Sam by the FDI, and wo traced it back to Johnny's idontity on this tap, Johnny to Sam, and from then on the Bureau moved in, they moved in on Phylitea. Up to that time nobody had evor talked to Phyllis. They harrassed her overywhero sho went, and then thoy started to harrass Johnny back and forth, and they wero under constant surveillance. Johnny and Sam said, both gaid this was-the baqinning of the harrassment by the FHI, up to that time they were nover bothered by the FBI. The only people that were bothering Sam at all was the Crime Commission in Chicago. Joe Woods was giving them a little trouble. Joe was a former bureau agent. Mr. Postal. That's the McClellan Committee? “ir. Shimon. ilo, that was the Crime Commission in Chicago. then he was elected Sheriff. His sister's the secretary to nixon. Mr. Postal. That's Evelyn Woods? Nr. Shimon. That's Rosemary Woods. We used to be Bureau Agent here and then he went private, and then ho wont out to Chicago on the Crime Commiasion, and he studied to be a priest, nice guy, —FOP-SECRET—
”s ar Pane (Aras 207) $44-4008 wane @ Pave Bid bey Street SEL amet £14 i] ae —FOP-SEERET- a Mr. Rhea. Whon did you first meet Jim O'Connell? ; Mr. Shimon. Well, I mat Jim O'Connoll off and on saveral . times in Maheu's house, probably late ‘SOs, somewhere around . there, at partics. Mr. Rhoaa. Was it prior to this inetdont? Mr. Shimon. It was prior to going to Miami, yeah. fir. Rhea. Did you know who Big Jim'a omployor was? Mr. Shimon. I knew he was & CIA agent. Mr. Rhea. Did he over tell you that? Mr. Shimon. No, he didn't, but I knaw ho was. ‘Ay neighbors wore CIA ayenta. Mr. Rhea. Did thoy tell you? Mr. Shimon. Well, we used to talk about who's who, do you know Joe. Mr. Rhea. Did you mect Mr. o'Connell at places other than Mr. Maheu's house? Mr. Shimon. Yeah. I met him at the Purple Tree Inn one night, had dinner, went on a drunk, you know. Mr. Rhea. You mentioned a while ago that Big Jim had talked to the Attornoy General about the wiretapping. Mr. Shimon. No, he didn't tell me that. I said he tole me that he used the same excuse or the same background to the Lona Committee that he had used with the Juatice bopartment, when they intercedud for Hobby before. They interceded the sir time and the Long Committec called him, ne wanted the same —TOP-SEERET—
+ "200 20?) 444 4008 manmer & Faure blanket, and Jim had to cover him with the same blanket. Mr. Rhaa. Did Jim O'Connell tell you he had tnterceded for Maheu in tha tap, in the wiretap case? tr. Shimon. He did with the Long Committee, ho had dafinitoly. Mr. Rneas'. And with regard to the proaccution, did he say anything about that? Mr. Shimon. Well, ho said he did it again, and this is my assumption, if he said again, there was only twice that he intercoded for him. Mr. Postal. Oid big Jim say he had gone to the Department of Justice himself? Mr. Shimon. No. He was talking about thn Long Comnittce. Mr. Postal. But, the oariior time. Mr. Shimon. No, I didn't talk to him about the earlicr time. Mr. Postal. Did h- ever tell you that big Jim went down there or did Bob tell you he went down there. Mr. Shimon. No. That was “im's own statament about the Lona Committed. Mr. Tostal. Do you know a woman by the name of Judith Campbell or Judy Campbell? Mr. Shimon. tf nover heard of her. Never heard of jer. No, it doesn't strike a boll at all. “tr. lMostal. Not in connection to John Rosselli? —FOP-SECRET
—TOP-SECRET- } Mr. Shimon. I met most of Johnny's female friends, and I never met a Judy Campbell. ma-2 ares JOM 44446008 Mr. Postal. How about a Judy Inmore? Mr. Shimon. No. Postal. Or Yvonne Inmora. Mr. Mr. Shimon. No. ? Mr. Postal. Now about a woman by the name of Zelma Coolidga? Mr. Shimon. (Nods in the negative.) Mr. Postal. Ratsy Ouncan? thae's Mr. Shimon. etsy the singer? Yeah, that's Botsy married. A nice girl. © Lo 3. Mr. Postal. You know Hotsy? Mr. Postal. Did you ever know her as Zalma Dewar? Did you aver meet a girl by the name of Judy Camphell 5A St with Sam or -- Mr. Shimon. No, I only met this Polish girl. 1 don't I didn't know her name, a very, very pretty know hor name. girl. She's the one that he gava a ring to, and that‘s the one that made him an exile. Her namo is availablo; it's XN ° : in the Police Department. He gave her a ring. Sho took the ring in to have the stone tightened and the jewolor saw the mark, it was hot. lie grabbed hor. Sho said she got it from Sam. They grabbed Sam, and Sam said he bought it froma frient, FOP-SEERET—
rd 3 e ‘ e o £ « t “ t ee And there was a whole hassle and he wouldn't tell who the friend was, and Sam just packed up and moved to Mexico. That was one of the reasons. And this is what Attorney General Mitchell used to laugh about, how they bluffed Sam into going ° into exile. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Rhea. Did you ever hear the name Tony Verona? Shimon. No. Rhea. Juan Orta? Shimon. No.
Mr. Postal. Do you know a Carmina Ballino? Mr. Shimon. I know of him, yes. I got a haad full of jeez, real trouble I got into just by knowing the name. Mr. Postal. For a moment let's focun on that time. Mr. Dawson. How did you get into trouble? Did Le have anything to do with the questions wo're asking you today? Mr. Shimon. No, this is some of Bob'a. He's a former associate of Sob'a. te and Bob opened a detactiva agency and . something happened, and whan Rob moved out, he turned most of this stuff to tha mon who were working for him, like i411 Angeloni and Johnny Frank. Mr. Dawson. Well, you've answered my question. Thare's no reason to go on any further. Mr. Postal. What happened to cause a split between Bellino and Maheu? Mr. Shimon. I don't know, but there's bad blood between them, Mr. Postal. Did you know Carmine Bellino when he was working in the thite House as a special consultant? Mr. Shimon. I didn't know him at all. Mr. Postal. Do you know of him? Mr. Shimon. All I knew the name, that he was former} associated with Hol, and he's still very friendly with Hill Anyeloni,who worked with Hob for many, many yoara, TOR SECRET
& four mann 47 Mr. Postal, Were you still on the police department when John Kennedy was President? Mr. Shimon. Oh, yes. Mr. Postal. If John Kennedy had any personal problema or any trouble, would you have heard about it? Mr. Shimon. Well, I'm trying to think. Mr. Postal. Or anything of a parsonal nature that you might have heard of? Mr. Shimon. No, because -- what made me laugh was this long Committee crowd cama up to ma and said that I wasn't levelling with them. And when they formed that Comnitted they didn't know anything ahout hugging. They cama to re, I gave them a complate course, took them around and showed then installations in town, showed them all the Nureau installations so they'd have something to work with. The invastigator, Cole, an old friend of mine. But, he came to me with, you know, hostility and said, you're holding out on us. And [ said what. tle says, wa know that Mrs. Kennedy hired you to catch the Frerident with some broad and you caught him. We want to know the story. Tt was ao ridiculous, and 1 said ~-- thay said, we nave this in black and white, now, you can't hack off this one. tie want you to tell ua the story. And I told them in four ahort words, you go to hell. Now, if such a thing did happon, and she did hire aomenn - -FOP-SECRET-
s ? « ry e c s < 6 I don't know if he got caught or not, hut a fellow named Richards handled it, and whan it was all over Richards took his money and want to Florida and stayed away a couple of years. That was knowledge in the industry. Mr. Postal. Do you know what the man's full name is? Mr. Shimon. Well, I' don't know whether ho‘'s still a private cye or not. Mr. Postal. Richard's his name? Mr. Shimon. So Cole has the story that I think the Long Committea has. They cama back and apologized and said thay wero sorry. Mr. Postal. So some private detactive was in fact hired to look into certain indiscretions. Mr. Shimon. That was the atory around town. So I said it had to be Richard because that's the way I heard it, through the grapevine. Mr. Postal. Could it. have been Carmine Rellino that was - Mr. Shimon. It wasn't Carmine Hellino. This was a private guy, strictly a divorce guy. fig. Nawson. May I ask a question? Mr..Pontal. Sure. Mr. Dawson. To get back to the chronology of the CIA connection with Giancana and Rosselli, and varticularly with Rossolli, as well as Mr. Maheu, we have found out the date ¢! the Johansen-Patterson Cight that took place in Miami -+ there FOPR-SECRET-