7 . 66%b4 advised. on a weekly basis. If that does not seem to do it,. ‘maybe then we would have to make some change, but I would urge that we at least attempt it that way. Doeld: 32266815 ©
Ds Chairman Downing. I would advise the members Yocace trying to close up by 12:30. I don't want to “cut it short. We can come back to this. If we could. wrap it up in 10 minutes, it would be good. | | | Me. Stokes? Mr. Stokes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I may have several questions. Chairman Downing. Take the time. Mr. Stokes. Thank you very much. Mr. Sprague, let me join with: my colleagues in commending ~ you for the presentation you have made. I would concur in). = the: analysis you have made with reference to: the. absolute need |] tox professionalism, not only by the staff but by nis committe || consequently I would be one who would certainly. support | whatever | you need, in order to bring this investigation, “this massive type of investigation, the type of staff ‘that - you need. this makes me. really wonder why you want to make - | ents type of presentation | in executive committee rather | | “than in open committee. ae rt would seem to me that such a presentation would have. _had value to the public at : large, and would perhaps conmence helping to mold the opinion of the public at large as. to “the massiveness of the job, the need or. necessity for |} protessionatisms, the kind of staffing that would, be required. | | -t.would like Seems... your comments on that.
|| questions of inquiry, I. thought maybe there might be some” || es publicly is helpful. “S, Tt was a decision I made and looking back. on- it, , it may have 69 Dye. Spregoes Mr. Chairman and Mr. Stokes, I do reek “that the laying out of what is needed in terms of staff. desirable to present to the public, and as a matter of fact | that is the reason with regard to public press ‘conferences and interviews I have done that. What I thought woula be "undesirable would be to raise in a public posture fat e this point even the questions ‘concerning the guilty plea ‘of. ‘Ray ort the question in terms of a photograph. In the sooo we have submitted to you, where we jay out threshold | questions raised about that, that it would facilitate ‘and be desirable that that kind of detail not be said publicly, "because I do think that.in terms of the appearance of really " professionalisn, that the avoidance of saying “that ‘kind. of. “Now I did not know how I could be really” making the _ presentation to the committee this morning without at the a ~ sane time getting into some detail of what was “found out at . the - threshold. I thought it would be more meaningful to the committee to get that kind of detail as well to understand | the presentation. If I- could have made the presentation in | just the numbers, and I would be glad to do it again without "getting into the detail, I quite agree with you. a | “Chairman Downing. I take part of that responsibility. |
Docld: 32266015. Pde been better to have it made public but that is something that is up for question now. ets Mr. Sprague, my next question has to do. with ‘the degree «of statting that you have done thus far in your recruiting — “mechanism. Of course one of my major concerns, in an area : in which r am quite sensitive, is that of minority appoiatnent = realize this is a skeleton staff that you have put ‘together, put I have read. the resumes that you have submitted tous, “and I do have some very serious concerns wien eeferonee 09 2 " personnel thus far recruited. Particularly I look at y your. | state recruiting in the area of attorneys and tention, cal “you, Sorrect me if I am wrong, but other than Belford Lawson)" “hee'any other minorities on that list of 11 thus “far enployea? “other than Belford Lawson in the 1 that you have. employed o- thus far, are there any, other minorities? “Republican minority: “stokes? ‘gators, the list of 11. those presently employed. However, that. is ‘not to” ‘say he. 70- “4 W Go ahead. G Mr. Stokes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Devine. Are you ‘talking about black minorities or wo (ese --Mr. Sprague. Are you just asking about attorneys, Mr. | “Mr. Stokes. I am concerned with attorneys and investi-— - Mr. Sprague. Mr. Lawson is the only plack member of
TN “is going to be the only black member, and we are interviewing. others, and I’ have been in touch with Mr. Pauntroy “about recruiting black members. | a g D we. Stokes: In the case of Belford Lawson, - whom Fe happen to. know and I know he is a very busy lawyer, ‘probably “one of the top counsel in the country = | | woe | “Is this the son? Mr. Sprague. Yes; this is the son, Mr. stokes. Mr. Stokes. He is peing employed full time - then, Mr. Sprague. Oh, yes. Mr. Stokes. I couldn't see Belford tawson being employed €or $20,000. | EB ae | S Mr. Sprague. Full time, as will be the requirements. , || for each member. re a “Mr. Stokes. Let me ask you this. In tems of the _selection of those who are going to act in the capacity ae. “ of acting chief counsel or deputy chief counsel, in: both the investigahons, . “King and Kennedy ‘=m were any blacks considered. ain: _ terns of those appointments? - | | Mr. Sprague. Yes, they were. “Mr. Stokes. Can you give me some idea about how many? Mr. Sprague. I would say approximately four for those. “positions. I am not talking about other positions where they are under consideration. Asa matter of fact, one of | || the. reasons I have held up the filling of the position-of
8 90 - oe ay Dockd32266815° P4ye. |] deputy chief counsel of the Legal Pivision right now. fe ut am trying really to get a black attorney for that position. Dye. Shoes: So that I understand, you are not saying you have any difficulty or trouble finding. qualified legal I) tatent in the black community for these positions? esi “Mr. Sprague. Mr. Stokes, I have been having some.” | "problem. I have as a matter of fact contacted numbers of |. "people and urged them to submit, and I have specifically coe | |. statea black attorneys with criminal experience | to me.” oe -“. Now I would be glad to sit down with you and discuss. Co i! gome of the people that were considered here, and | really ae othe reason why they were not put in the position of deputy chief, and I feel pretty confident that in “discussing chat, 2 “that you will concur. oo There is in my opinion, and I think I have made, ait quite © clear as a matter of fact in my discussions, ‘certainly, again 7 Or think with Mr. Pauntroy, I want to see the staffing here “equally balanced. I would not, for example, want tio see. “the King probe a black investigative probe and tne emedy, white. I want to get people of all races. t warit to get oe -it.on a combined basis.. Mr. Stokes. Neither would I like to see that, but I) | ‘oq |) would like to see a concerted effort, of course, in balancing | “ag tte staff to see that we do get and provide an. ‘opportunity ‘for | ll some of the talent that I do know exists, and I would be”
73 7 ~_ very happy to. work with you on this, in terms of your a . available lawyers, | finding enarhdeaioitsigioys and I will be glad to discuss ‘the matter with you outside of this hearing. Dye. Sprague. May I make one further response, as a “matter of fact along that same line. Some of the people - “in the chief deputy spot, ae you noted from New York, they, “have at my request obtained the names of some experienced “black: attorneys, and investigators. My problen there: is- not - black at at all. i really would like to get a more broad cae | Wor ‘do not want to have everybody from one locality of “ne “ebantry. I would like to have tne staff really repecsent a broad national base. veone a Mr. Stokes. Thankyou, Mr. Chairman. ~ Chairman Downing. ‘Thank you. whe hour of 12:30 has arrived, so we will recess until _ ]) 2 se that is convenient. “These booklets chat you nave in - exont of you are fairly ‘sensitive as they contain not only” «the mode of questioning and line of questioning of certain witnesses, but it also contains the names of. ‘the s witnesses” | wnien we propose to investigate, and fox that, reason | I “pettove : “that + when you leave today they ought to be turned back to. “the committee. If you want to see them in the -meantine,, cos or think it. is perfectly proper for you to go “into ‘the committee . "room | to see them put to let this material out. to the press “might hinder the investigation. — If you will ‘bear “with me,
“leave it here and somebody will be in the room, Mr. Feeney, -you will see to that. The room is going to be electronically "swept while we are at lunch again, and we will come. back, “ana resume the questioning of Mr. Sprague and go | forward J we the rest of the agenda. Pane press is going to come in and ask me questions. Is it all right if I say that the number of 170 was. mentioned, and that we spent all this time explaining it? “Mr. McKinney. I suggest that Mr. Sprague explain’ some | Se aos of the technical reasons for the depth of investigation. | Chairman Downing. The committee will recess until 20 psiea | _ [imereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the committee was, recessed, _ to. reconvene at 2 p.m., this same day.J Docld: 32266815.
a AFTERNOON SESSION [_ y | (ArtS—peme yes ~— Henairman Downing. The committee will come’ to. order. _° Are there any people in the room that have not been’ || position? The committee will come to order. ‘At the time of the recess Mr. Stokes had finished his ||" questioning of Mr. Sprague. I now recognize Mr..Thone.. 9 “Mr. Thone. No questions. .. Chairman Downing. Mr. Fauntroy? Mr. Fauntroy. ‘Thank you, Mr. Chairman. . Mr. Sprague, I simply have one question to which I. “would like for you to react. ~~ You are aware of the fact that a great: deal of. suspicion: “has been directed at the staff in many investigations | aren of ‘some: of the allegations that would go to the staffing » Of the Warren Commission, in terms of information leads that. were not followed, in terms of questions that were not 4 have beens. = asked, that certainly it would appear should pCa asked, cand in: some instances allegations that materials and evidence that. was: made available was not in fact noted. As we prepare ourselves to do the thorough investigation. | hat you have’ indicated: omg we must do, Tam concerned ‘also Pe
|| about staff, and for that reason I was certainly supportive || of the agreement that staff should be hired by you, since | * you were going to be responsible for the investigation. : Already, however, I have received a number of questions > about at least one staff person, Mr. Robert Ozer, on the |} basis of his conduct as federal prosecutor in the State |. of Michigan, relating to a Supreme Court juaagg: a “According to newspaper accounts that have been made available to me, he is accused of having engaged in investigation by of be terrorism, and. omen responsible for. something) that, you call. guilt, by announcement, so much so that. Et the Nation Magazine gee taken note of his conduct, and cnumerous 7 es newspapers in Michigan have taken note of ity negatively, and I believe 7 you may correct me if I am not right oe that, at the suggestion of the Michigan Bar agsoeiatisn, a overzealous, and employing tactics that may not. tand up to the eye of scrutiny and fair plage oe ~ also aise t the question, because I would wonder what you would | hink of having, to assist you in the hiring of a nig So _ that we think is necessary, a personnel committee of ©. EE
this committee, to assure @™%& not only sam your concerns: ~that you get the very best, and we want that, put also’. ,our concern that we not be exposed unduly to both political ._ pressures and to possible embarrassment up the “wine. 08 Dy. Spraque. rague. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Fauntroy, with regard — the two parts really to that question, °1 took this “position on being assured that the determination as. to who “to hire would be made by me, for ‘the reason that in wy vw mo investigation should not be tinged with selection on a! . ‘political basis, in the sense as an investigator Bam "responsible for the staff and the team work. “Tt ‘of course "would be impossible to do a thorough and proper - investigative | _ job with people that have been put on who I do not’ approve. a 2 say that preliminarily. I think that it has come across as a high watermark | “Pat. the inception of this committee that the committee nas -been willing to really turn over its own power for hiring personnel, ‘to keep it on ‘that kind of a level, and 1 think ca mistake would be made to go back from that. aE cam am certainty. “concezned, and I think that the question raised that people | ought not to be on the staff, however, that in any y way could We rettect upon not only the integrity of the staff but: really “the committee, the integrity of each person on the » committee, “is, a point that I would not quarrel with, and a wood nave n hot the slightest objection let's say when there: is “somebody » I
~ that I think measures the test for putting on the staff, if there is let's say a personnel committee then to submit _ that name for let's say the personnel's committee determination] "Yes, we concur" as opposed to it being initiated the. other: "way around, “which I think would be wrong. Tr would, have co — objection along that line, and I think that still, meets - © the same high level of selection, so that that is my /_ response to that. Ds With regard to Mr. Ozer in particular, let The “say ‘that ca ft am ‘aware and was aware, upon employing him, of the ce ae "controversy that has occurred as a result of his Prosecution on “of a justice of the Supreme Court in Michigan, and in. “Looking into it, I ascertained certain facts. me, Ozer has been a prosecutor in the. Department of res  gustice for a number of years, heading strike forces, cin. =| Philadelphia and Buffalo, before being out in the Michigan area. From the knowledge - that I have of him, he. has ve | - been, and I think it goes without question, an excellent ; investigator. ““ From some observations of my own, this is before fr" "coming here, I had knowledge of his prosecuting some e cases, and in my own view he is not quite the trial. lawyer that EF would like to see. That is not a reflection on him, He | is a good investigator but he ought to let other people , - try his cases. . athat is all I mean as to that.
. SD wowever, in the situation in Michigan, he uncovered . evidence against a justice in the Supreme Court in tienigan, © for which he then tried that justice. The justice was) “acquitted, but convicted of perjury charges arising from. - testimony before the investigating grand jury. I had been on “advised that Mr. Ozer had made statements to the news. "media, particularly Newsweek agazine, which eee to. admonition from the Department of Justice for having. © spoken to that magazine. I nad also been advised that. there! |. “had been: allegations made that his use of the nvestigating I} geana_ jury had been in a heavy-handed fashion. | - guess I must insert here, having been a prosecutor, that I am very used to the concept that when you. ‘proceed -against certain individuals who were placed in arin) trong position with a political organization, counter- harges against the prosecutor many tines are made. AS matter of fact I think I even doa disservice there. Many ° imes. ‘part of really what | occurs in prosecution; it need nots [bes someone in a high level in a political organization, the > efense becomes. a counterattack against the prosecutor, 20 ‘that for allegations to occur is not something that moves e one way or the other. , “What I did do, I sought information from the: Department of & Justice today, and they have submitted a letter, which Tr ave which I eee be glad to make available, that while | the Department of Justice thought that. Mr. Ozer. “ought not to:
have made his statement to the news media, they did investigate his use of the grand jury, and found that there was no: ~ dmproper use or nothing high-handed or improper in that. — GF in addition, I have here a letter, which is. from. ~ Judge Ralph Guy, Jr., the District Judge of the ‘United States |] district Court in the Eastern District of Michigan, which fr would be glad to just make a part of the eécord, ‘ances ‘jf you would like to have it read. Me. 6 th Ypioad Seabes tt ethe very re Guy was e J attorney at e very. Sag * time that Mr. Ozer was heading a strike force in Michigan, 4 |e giving rise to the allegations. In this letter Judge Guy 420 "relates fully the thoroughness, the total integrity of ‘the | process by which Mr. Ozer did handle that very matter. ‘which ak. a | - Guy, ‘then the Upived Rpates attorney, was fully” knowLeageab: e ot. and he endorses him and backs him up completely. T ‘say a “that really in response to the question that you have raised. are ‘I might say that in addition, and again I cannot say ‘this |. 4g} too strongly, to do a thorough job here, the integrity, of ae “the personnel and the way in which they are viewed is. og earn important, and I have spoken to Mr. Ozer, because 1 t haves |: “4, [been aware, even from Judge Guy's letter, that Mr. Ozer, gg |] sometimes is not the most diplomatic individual in going= =. gg Pon his investigations, and at this point he is representing || the Congress of the United States, and that is really a- “high tone of what, one must do. Docla:32966815. dha
gr YW suffice to say that from my conversations with him, and looking into these matters, I was and am satisfied as to his: integrity and ability, and his intent in not going - anything that would be a disservice to the staff ‘of this “committee. a : With regard to the statement that he made to ‘the news “media, w what he said was a statement after the defense counsel ‘had made a statement. The defense counsel, after ene ) "conviction of the Michigan justice, made the statement ‘to. ae |}. the news media that well, the - justice was acquitted of the "substantive charges,.and it was a technicality, that he was convicted in his perjury charge. : Mr. Ozer's response, which he then gave, which he. | perhaps ought not to have done, but it was in. cemigie that that Mr. Ozer said "Well, it is not an acquittal. reas “Justice of the Supreme Court has been convicted of a: - perjury case," and that is part of what lead to that) ae - comment. t feel confident of Mr. Ozer's integrity and ability. “Mr. Fauntroy. Mr. Chairman, I am satisfied with Mr. oe " Sprague's answer. I did not intend to get into (a specific "justification of this particular employee, put Eton make the | pone that perhaps a happy medium between our desire east, er have : someone on staff and on the other hand not hnaving or role in cat least looking at * Statto bcs m Yoor to formulation of. e . Loy
ne proposal is acceptable to neg) Pnat is, that we Kaye ‘avs © small committee to which you could refer, because there” ©; ||) might be things that the members of the Congress would see : and, perceive immediately that might not occur te yous 2 ; Y chairman Downing. Thank you, Mr. Fauntroy.. — a Mr. Anderson? 'Mr. Anderson; Thank you, Mr. Chairman. a, Mr. Sprague, as you have noted this committee “will” “launch. an investigation or a probe which is “unprecedented | to | in the history of the Congress, and being without any " precedents therefore to guide us, it is difficult to make an. oH assessment and evaluation of the staffing requirements, as |} inaicatea in the proposed table of organization..that is)! 14 || Pefore me. | i | ce I am wondering with respect. to the Kennedy. and ‘the “King task force, where apparently about 35 percent of the |] personnea would be lawyers and 65 percent investigators, “that seems “to be about the ratio, is there in fact ea ~T preceaent for that in the manner that the Senate Watergate committee was organized « or the House Impeachment. committee? “How did you arrive at those ratios? > Is there sone: rationaie? - ‘Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Anderson, :I -do not have -. jj.a rationale with regard to another committee. It was just. omy own thinking process here of about one lawyer with each: “|p two to three investigators working as a team, and Iwas Docla:32266815. Palje 61
. 89, GD ur. Sprague. I think I ought to make clear the role. that pee of the committee itself and the subcommittees, - because it may help really explain the way in which the investigation * proceeds. I do not see the committee or subcommittees just sitting and being given transcript after transcript to read, _Mitnesses just being brought forth here to testify. There gas going to be a need here for members of ‘the’ comnittee, a - two members at a time from each of the subcommittees, to- have to go, for example, to Dallas, to have to go. to wherever | for purposes of at times taking testimony, when witnesses “are: not otherwise taking testimony. There is going to be more of an investigative role, by the committee and the members of the committee themselves in all parts of the country. “Phat is not going to of necessity mean ae committee having a staff member just read things. The only. way that. can operate, for this committee to be successful as tT: 18 and we can't deal through intermediaries. Mr. Dodd. There are obviously going to. be occasions. when material is coming in where each one of us aaa going to want to designate our own staff member to be responsible for | his legislative area, and there are going» to be numerous a occasions that, will arise where. because of our, other a