457-10011-10019 AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORDS SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : _ ORIGINATOR : FROM : TO: TITLE > “SSCI TRANSCRIPT, TES DATE : PAGES SUBJECTS : .. TESTIMONY OF SCOTT:D. BRECKINRIDGE, JR., ) PARTICIPANTS: SENATORS SCHWEIKER, HUDDLESTON, HART & BAKER DOCUMENT TYPE JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM AGENCY INFORMATION SSCTA 157~-10011-10019 TIMONY OF D. BRECKINRIDGE, DEPUTY IG, CIA 06/02/75 161 : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS T REFERRED P 09/29/93 SSCI Box 231, Folder 11 DEPUTY I.G../CIA Date:08/15/92 Page:1 (Bar HW 0955 Docld:322903787 [R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED Page 1
TOP SECRET ! 2 : 1 in to discuss what Harvey xseferrs to as an executive action’ g £ | capability, i.e., a general standby capability to carry out - | g 5 | assassinations when required. Harvey's notes quote Bissell as | é 4 |'saying 'the White House has twice urged me to create such 9 | a Capability'." Bissell recalls discussing the question of 6 || developing a general capability with Harvey. Then) there is fur- | 7 | there discussion of dates, but not of substance. And at the © : 8 || bottom of the page the substance continues as follows: 9 "After some discussion of the problems involved in ceveloy 10 | ing an executive action capability, Bissell placed Harvey in | ll | charge of the effort. Harvey says that Bissell had already | : 12 discussed certain aspects of the problem with" -~-/] now, we ; . . )é 13 hav some blank outs here in our copy. a < 14 Are they not names which we have already seen? | 15 | Mr. Breckenridge. You have seen those names. -~ you 16 | have seen one of them, I am not sure you nave seen the other. a 17 Senator Schweiker. In view of the fact that we need 18 this at this point, would you furnish us with that? Otherwise, | 19 | we can't very well understand that statement without those two | ‘20 || names. | | 21 Mr. Breckenridge. Yes. Let me give you the names. | . i 90 I have given you one of those names as someone we inter- 23 || viewed. And we didn't give it in this context. 24 The names of the two people are Arnold Silyer! and Sidney 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 25 || Gottlieb. 3 | TOP SECRET HY 50955 DBoctld: 32203787 Page 2
i : . " | TOP SECRET , S 1 Mr. Schwarz. And Mr. Gottlieb was a person who worked vt : f gt § 2 iin the Technical Services Division, was he? AN a g 3 Mr. Breckenridge. Yes. E a oi. Mr. Schwarz. And he was the kind of person who made 5 | exploding cigars and poison and syringes and that ‘sort of thing? 6 Mr. Breckenridge. That organization could do this sort y |lof thing. 8 The hext one is, since fSilver] was already cut in. i ti . 9 | Mr. Schwarz. What was}Silver's/function? | Breckenridge. (Silver =- where #sitverjwa$ at this time 10 Mr. Breckenridge. §Silver_ ere joiiver / : 11 | I don't recall ~-fSiigér /is a man who was primarily a case officer 12 | in the European area. He had earlier recruited an asset, an 13 agent, who came to be considered for use in the Lmumba instance. ee 14 Mr. Schwarz. Was that the person we already have on the . 45 || record called Q.J. Winn? 16 Mr. Breckenridge. Q. J. Winn. wie Mr. Schwarz. And that. recruting had taken place sometime 13 | in 1960, is that right? 19 Mr. Breckenridge. The exact place I don't recall now. 20 Q. J. Winn was recruited separately from this later activity. H t 21 So he was someone that already existed. | . treet, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 29 Mr. Bader. Excuse me. | 29 a 24 Mr. Breckenridge. At one time he was. He spent many 25 years in Europe. And it was because of ‘his service there that TOP SECRET i = Ww Qa oy wv HW 50955 DBDocld: 322037307 Page 3
HY Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 WARD & PAUL street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 re = mg ° - vy 0955 LO 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 el Re 23 24 £9 Doctd: TOP SECRET 77 "Since (Silver]was already cut in, Harvey used him in. developing executive capability, although never with respect to Castro”. And then after that: "We did not questionfSilvérjon his knowledge". Mr. Breckinridge. No, we did not question Gottlieb. Mr. Schwarz. Where is Mr. Gottlieb today? Mr. Breckinridge. He is retired, and I lunderstand he is living overseas. Mr. Schwarz. Is he living in India today? Mr. Breckinridge. I am not sure whether it jis India or Africa. Mr. Schwarz. Going along, there isa notation by that Harvey instructed to discuss techniques with without associating the discussion with the Castro operation. Mr. Breckinridge. All right. Harvey's mention of him in this connection may explain a notation by Dr./Gunn that Harvey instructed Gunn to discuss techniques with Gottlieb, without associating the discussion with the Castro operation. Mr. Schwarz. And Gunn is the final person.|And who is he, or what was his function? Mr. Breckinridge. Gunn was a doctor who provided various kinds of operational support. (Discussion off the record.) TOP SECRET 322037687 Page 4
TOP SECRET | 0 ad took place between the White House and Mr. Bissell, do you a know whether Mr. Bissell ctisclosed to the White House that the Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 { i 5 CIA was already engaged in a plan to kill at least one foreign | | | | 4 | leader, to wit, Fidel Castro? 5 | Mr. Breckinridge. I don't know. 6 | Mr. Schwarz. Is there anything else about executive 7 | action capability which you do know based upon your ronversation 8 with these persons or otherwise? ; ! 9 Mr. Breckinridge. It is our understandint that as establihe: . { 10 in this special project that was never used, the project had | a 11 | two purposes, one that appears on the record, WITien is ¢6 Steal) ff | le and the other one, which was developed by jour interviews 13 which is to have this capability for assassination. The WARD & PAUL 14 best that we have been able to get out of the files is that the 15 |geeae:. aspec became the controlling character of the Berane 16 project. 1 nn ere ne ere on me re ae L? And eventually, and as far as Q.J. Winn was concerned, th 18 record indicates that he was paid off a couple of years 19 later. And whether or not he has ever been used/I don't know. 20 Senator Schweiker. When did your investigation show 21 that the Executive Act phase of a project was in essence 22 phased out? 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 23 Mr. Breckinridge. As Harvey got ready for| a new assign- e 24 ment ~- I will have to check it here =<-- he decided to have the 25 agent paid off, and as nearly as I can reconstruct -~ and I | | TOP SECRET | HY 50955 DBoctd: 32203787 Page 5
& TOP SECRET | — 3 1 think this is correct -~- the project, rather than being . | ): 2 terminated formally, simpiy became dormant. And the record is not é 3 i| too conclusive as to what happened to it, because) the other thing 2 4 that was in it was this agent. And when Mr. Colby took action i} 5 | August of 1973 he instructed that if it had not allready been 6 terminated it would be terminated then. But there is 7 |. this uncertain element as to the normal administrative action | 8 || taken on the termination of the project itself. 9 Senator Schweiker. Which date was that? | 10 Mr. Breckinridge. — Well, formerly by Mz - Colby "s | ll instruction years later. It just went dormant and nothing | , 12 happened. | | fk 13. Mr. Schwarz. Doesn't page 41 of the record |show that Mr. : 14.|| Q-J- Winn was terminated in April 1964? | 15 Mr. Breckinridge. Yes. The agent who was the only asset | 16 in the project, the agent was paid off. But the administra- | 17 tive vehicle, which is the project, just simply became dormant | 1s without normal bureaucratic conclusion. | . 19 Mr. Schwarz. And on the face of things the|project was | 59 || only a project to f SESEMNE SuICSy, so that it is only through | : 21 talking to people chat youhave an idea that it also oa : 20 had something to do with assassinations, is that|right? | : 23 Mr. Breckinridge. That is correct. It is|.only through ne 24 Harvey that we have this aspect of it. | : 95 Mr. Schwarz. Now, is it Mr. Harvey's testimony that | TOP SECRET HY 50955 DBoctd: 32203787 Page 6
{ | TOP SECRET | g 1 | Mr. Breckinridge. That is correct. = g 2 That was the judgment of the people who intended to | é } use him. 2 4 Senator Schweiker. Whether he knew it, in view of the 5 | fact that he had a criminal record and the Agency hired him, how, 6 could he not know that he was being retained on that asset basis? q | What other assets did they have? | 8 Mr. Breckinridge. The records on this man indicates that | ‘ j 9 every attempt was made to use him to (SteaVeodes} and recruit ! 10 | Other men -~ | ll | Senator Schweiker. Did he in fact [SESS SORESY | 12 Mr. Breckinridge. I don't know that he did: | : iz | - Senator Schweiker. The record isn't clear on that? | : 14 - Mr. Breckinridge. No. : | 1s | Mx. Schwarz. ‘But you know that the Agency: frequently | 16 1 Mr. Breckinridge. Yes, it has. | 18 Mr. Schwarz. Has anybody ever discussed whether that was ! . 19 a proper thing or that was not a proper thing to! do? | 20 Mr. Breckinridge. I have. ! | | g 21 Mr. Schwarz. Has anybody said that was not proper? E 20 Mr. Kirbow. Off the record. | 4 23 (Discussion off the record.) > 24 Mr. Breckinridge. I think that is an abstract question. | : 25 And there are both abstract answers and specific answers. And | , | TOP SECRET | HW 50955 Docld:32203787 Page 7
TOP SECRET | 86 1 I think that the discussicn is more public than it is an 2 issue that is raised within the Agency, The Agency, operating 3 overseas, violates the laws of the country on occasion in which Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 4 it operates. It recruits people to give information on their 5 || own country, which is against the laws of that country. And on 6 those occasions when it does acquire such things as Secrets ” | Si if it does not do so by bribery, it does so through | , H } 8 prople who break and enter. | | 9 Mr..Kirbow. Or by any other means available to them to | | 10 || obtain such SECTrEt AeGdES 77 | Ll | Mr. Breckinridge. Well, by bribery and by taking poss- | g 12 ession of itself -- in theory you could kidnap, and in theory | ; 13 you could intercept a courier. I don't know of any instances. : 14 where that has been done. ! | 15 Mr. Schwarz. Getting back to what we are jtrying to do, : 16 which is authorization, knowledge or concealment with respect WW to high officials in the Agency or persons outside of the | 18 Agency, would you turn to page 41. And I will read into the reqord . 19 -the following; this is under the heading April 1962: | 20 "Edwards recalls Harvey contacting him in April and | : 21 asking to be put in touch with Roselli. Edwards said that | : oo | he verified Helms'approval and then made the arrangements. : 23 || Harvey states that he briefed Helms before his first meeting : 24 with Roselli, explaining its purpose, and he alse reported to : 25 Helms the result of his meeting with Roselli. Harvey states that TOP SECRET | ' HW 50955 Docld:322703787 Page 6