-Docld: 32266787 Page 31 os | 28 budget beside it go that you could see how much salary had been reduced and so forth, and that would give you the oppor- tunity to then put a page of comment under salaries and ar . a explain that this reduction came about by reducing to a total | 115: from the original total, and that sort of thing. Mr. Fithian. And then perhaps some comment’ at the bottom that: would indicate that anyone who wants to peruse ' the entire budget and explanation of it should see pages X, Y, 2 in the Congressional Record of such and such a date. I think we are not giving too clear a road map where they can find the information. They are all pressed for time as we are. If we have in there, indicating on pages whatever it is, in tomorrow's Congressional Record they can find the entire budget, at least it cuts the ground out from under them by saying in the course of the debate, "Well, you don't pre- sent us with enough information on this budget to know whether | to support you or not." It arms us a little better for the- debate if we do that. The Chairman, I T suppose the headlines will be, - omhe committee cut. ‘the ‘Sprague budget by $4" million, anyway." | Me. Sprague. The committee cut Sprague. ‘Me. Fithian... rr see here Ttem 3, "Consulting Services." It seems to me that at. our task force meeting, Mr. Chairman, we had some discussion about spelling out something there, about experts.or something, forensic services, scientific
29 services, so that it did not sound like it was a sludge fund for consultants, knowing the way the House operates. | “wr. Dodd. Mr. Chairman, I have gone through the report and have a bunch of little technical changes and some that / are a little more substantive. ‘I wonder if we might start with some of those. The Chairman. Sure. Mr. Dodd. On page l, second paragraph after the words “Martin Luther King, Jr.," for clarity's sake you talk about "despite the eight years since these final conclusions were reached” and so forth. | | | on page 2 at the very bottom this language might go toward the front. "The investigations are in their infancy and, therefore, the committee cannot submit verifiable con- clusions with respect to the -assassinations." I would change the language to réaas "Before all the evidence is gathered, tested and corroborated, and inquiry is ; completed." ~~ oe ; | 7 ee ee Page three, I have a question on the very first sentence, "While the committee is pursuing new information, it has also undertaken to initiate an exhaustive de novo investigation of | the assassinations." | Tt seems to me from the Rules Committee discussion and others is this to be a de novo investigatation or are we going to be relying on testimony, evidence and so forth? Maybe I Docld: 322766787 Page 32
dog 31 1 WW W2 14 AW 18 9 0 | at 23 ae | @ ti Docld: 32266787 P 13 still unclear. r thought this was not going to be a completel de novo investigation. That is a fundamental question. I thought we were going to be in with those things already established, we are not going to go back to the very first - | moment in time. ‘Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, I think that is a pretty fundamental question. Ihave been under the assumption that we are going back to ground level number one, because part of the problem that would exist if it is not de novo is how do we know that which is in fact so? We must start at the beginning. There are, obviously, things along the way that have been established; there there is not going to be any difficulty in our reestablishing. But it seems to me that is. where we start. “Mr. Doda. _ Maybe T am suggesting that there is some language after that sentence which would say, in effect, just what you have said that obviously, where evidence has been — established as being conclusive, the committee is not going ou to reestablish that evidence, © The Chdirman. ’ Will the. gentienan yield to me? the Chairman. _I suppose what you are , saying by eliminat- ing the words de novo you could say “initiate an exhaustive investigation of the assassinations," which includes going back to the beginning, wherever you have to. I think de novo e 33
log 32 1 might engender some discussion... We still can do what we have to. Mr. Dodd. ‘That isa kind of fuse word language to our colleagues, to hear the word de novo. - ‘Me. Pauntroy. I wonder if I may speak to that. Tr have not had an opportunity to. read this, ‘but it seems to me what. has been effective in my discussions with other | members has been. to say that the committee is actually active in two areas. First, that we are identifying documents, evidence, names and locations of witnesses and the like that are available to us through both state, local and federal agencies We are identifying that. | And that we are also, secondly, and I hope this language : is included in this draft, we are also in the process of looking at new and previously unpursued leads. With those two things on the way, obviously we have to do, in my judgment, a de novo investigation. Once we have ~~ in hand everfthing that everybody has that we have looked at, then ‘we do. the. investigation and come ‘fight up. : . Secondly, in the process I have been saying, ve are doing it. ike being cut off from the FBI files; we are looking at all of them. In the meantime, there have been some new leads. - 7 What perks up people, in my judgment, is when you say - eee DocId: 32266737 Pige 34
log 33 td WY ®@ ee 14 218 16 } 7 . 19. Docld:322766787 P new and unpursued leads. _*s "The Chairman. . a | 32 "I would hope that we hold to the idea of doing the investigation but having in hand when we do it, when we go to sit down at ground zero and say that we are at the Rainbow Motel, we know everybody else who was there and where they are. | . You would agree with Mr. Dodd's reasons? Mr. Fauntroy. ‘Make it de ‘novo. Mr. Dodd. The last paragraph on page 3° "Now that the committee has adopted rules of procedure and proposed a bud- get, we are ready to continue." I am changing the word "concentrate" to "continue." I think the concept should be woven through the entire report that this is a continuing function we are undergoing and not something we are concentrating on. Change the word _ “eoncentrate™ to. “continuing. " on page 4 -- and this was raised by Mr .- ‘Pithian in part at the beginning of that Section II A, I would like to. include here and anywhere else the staff may find helpful, this restated’. concept of legislative ‘action at the conclusion of this inquiry: “Again, from a Judiciary Committee ‘standpoint, one of their major concerns is that our ‘resolution and our efforts be designed ultimately to result in legislation to come out . of this committee, not just a | criminal investigation. The language I have added: here is, "The task of investigating ge 35
dog 34 . . 33 these two murders, especially as they relate to identifying possibly future legislative action by Congress was commenced under resolution," and so forth. I will read it again. After the words "two murders," “especially as they relate to identifying possibly immediate future legislative action by the Congress." That its something I feel we should emphasize, the legislative. intent, because it is one of the major criticisms we face. On page 5, paragraph B, "The 95th Congress," going down to the beginning of the third sentence with the words . “thereafter ," after "February 2, 1977." “Thereafter, on March 8, (1977, Congressman Louis Stokes was appointed Chairman by the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the committee was again reorganized and continued to pursue the investigation." | | Again the word "continuance." This is the period, that month, that I think is important. so far as I have understood it, that even though the phones were cut off and even though the access was eliminated to. the FBI, the staff was still working, research was being done and so forth. r think it might be | important that during that month's period, the emphasis was on continual operation; crippled though it was, it was: istill a 1 continuing investigation. Mrs. ‘Burke. ‘There. is no mention here of the former _ Chairman Gonzales. t think there « are people who are Docld: 322766787 Page 36
dog 35 10 YW 12 33 Docld:32266787 Pak resolutions were voted on and defeated in March 1976. immediately saying "and they did not even mention his name." Mr. Dodd. . We can put in subliminal cuts. Mrs. Burke. I think we have to give some recognition of the fact that he was the chairman at some time. Believe | me,. there area lot of people who are very sensitive on this point, I am telling you, arguing and discussing and rationalizing that we are trying to say that he has not been just overlooked and slighted and everything else. I think we have to put some reference that he-was chairman. Mr. Fithian. I would suggest that perhaps we could establish credit where credit is due very early in the report on the creation of the committee, but saying in respect "In response to the resolution proffered in the House by Henry Gonzales (D) ‘Texas, when he first introduced the resolution," which goes back a long way, “and Mr. Downing’s resolution." tn. other words, we can point to both their resolutions as being the fathers --. | Mrs. Burke." That is not true. Mr. Fithian. | rT am. not suggesting’ that we put * anything ta’ that is. not true.. Mr. Fauntroy. . Explain. tt to ‘him. “Mrs. Burke. Those resolutions vere introduced and those The only reason that those resolutions were passed was the e 37
35 ' compromise reached on the resolution introduced by Mr. Fauntroy. It was a matter that the only reason the resolution came up on there before the Rules Committee was that we had | obtained a change in position and support for another resolu- tion ‘Just out of courtesy and we had to wait for. the matter of having « an old resolution overlooked, that those resolu- tions were brought up. That is a very misunderstood point. Mr. Fithian. To give credit where credit is due in including the Martin Luther King resolution? ‘Mrs. Burke. They were not before the House. Mr. Fithian. As a member who came to the Congress first just one term ago for many, many months whenever dis- cussion of the investigation of reopening the Warren - Commission « came up, it is my clear impression that there was only one name associated with that and that was Henry Gonzales. Mrs. Burke. ALL of that was over and it had been voted upon and the ‘whole: matter ‘was set, to rest. It was only | brought up again in the. context. of the Ring resolution, and } this was a matter, of just, really it was just a matter of | having a vehicle rather ‘than just overlooking it. ‘the Chairman. “that is an important point that the | gentlewoman is bringing up, because among the members on the
36 1 | Floor that is not understood, but that is the fact. @ 2 Mr. Fauntroy. I did attempt to explain to the former 3 chairman when he cut off access to the FBI materials by the 4 staff that he was overlooking the fact that. the only reason 5 | he had access was that I was kind ‘enough to accept -— 6 / Mr. Doda. _ Let us go off the record. “7 (Discussion off the record.) — 8 . Mr. Devine. "Congressman Louis Stokes was appointed 9 || chairman by the Speaker of the House of Representatives 10 } succeeding Henry B. Gonzales." . VW Strike out tand® and start the next sentence, "Immediately, 12 7 the committee was again reorganized." 13 The Chairman. Would it not be better, Sam, if we said 14 # this: - "After February 2, 1977." "Upon adoption of this -1§ | resolution, Henry B..Gonzales was ‘appointed chairman of the | Of : mo , __. 16 |} committee." Then thereafter “on March 8th." W7 Mr. Devine. Either way. 18 The Chairman=~Tt follows a more logical sequence . 19 Mr. Devine. Either ways - | | 20. 7 ‘the Chairman. ‘Does that sound okay? 21 - All right. 29 Mr. Dodd. The. next paragraph « on page 5, beginning with 93 || the language, "One of the first actions was adoption of the 24 || rules of procedure" and ‘then this next sentence I have added 25 || language, "This item was a major requirement of the House and Docld: 32266737 Page 39
& Docld:32266787 Pdge 40 37 it is the committee's belief that these rules are outstanding" and then I have added here other language: “in their recog- nition of the requirement of due process, orderly investi- gations and emphasis on strict controls of staff activities and may become a model for investigative committees in the future." "To repeat, after the word "outstanding," “in their ‘recognition of the requirement for due process, orderly investigations and emphasis on strict controls of staff acti- vity." In the next paragraph, "A task force of the committee was appointed to consider the budgetary and staff require- - ments of the ensuing year. In addition, the committee reaffirmed the decision to divide into two subcommittees." Mr. Bdgar. .If the gentleman will yield at this point where you § are. reaffirming and dividing into two subcommittees, I notice on the front page, the third page in, it is not numbered, where it lists the members of the committee, it | lists our chairman and ‘each of our menbers, I wonder, since we. have made ‘the > division, whether we ought not to put the’ two . names of our chief investigators into the ‘Ring and Kennedy assassinations to highlight to the members of the House that not only: is Dick Sprague the chief Counsel, but in fact. Mr. ‘Tanenbaum and Mr. Lehner are working as lead people. I think it would be ) helpful for the rest of Congress ‘to San a hood %*
dog 39 38 know that there are those | two persons pursuing those two. independent investigations. The Chairman. That can be done without any problem. — Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, could we also include in | that the two chief investigators on this? Mr. Edgar. I don't have any problem with that. I just wanted some way of showing the substance of the number of people who are on staff who are top staff personnel who are pursuing the investigations. | Mr. Fithian. I think the value of doing what he is suggesting is that it is a graphic way of saying there are two investigations underway here which subconsciously may affect or impact on some people who say, well, there are too. many staff,. or whatever. It would show at the outset that we have Mr. Tanenbaum, i Mr. Lehner and the chief investigator under that organiza- tional chart appearance. I think we would do a lot to trans- } mit to them directly. - ‘Some people may flip. this over and see who is on this. + committee atiyway. “That might be the only page some People| li read, ‘sO far as I know. ‘the Chairman. Okay, fine. The staff will take care of that. Mr. Dodd. on Page, 6, I changed the language "Mr. Fauntroy, again, was appointed,” to "remains as chairman of Docld: 32266737 Page 41
dog 40 39 the King subcommittee and Mr. Preyer the chairman of the Kennedy subcommittee." I am trying to show flow rather than emphasizing the - breakup the committee went through during this traumatic period, to emphasize flow and continuity. ‘The end of the next paragraph, ‘paragraph beginning, "A meeting was ‘immediately arranged," I have added a sentence at the end of the last ‘sentence there to read, "Access to FBI materials on both assassinations was continued." ‘propping down to the two paragraphs, the paragraph beginning with the words "On March 11, 1977," going to the very end of that paragraph, changing the period after the word "consultants" to a comma and adding the following lan- guage:: “including ballistics testing of the alleged rifle used to murder Dr. King." The next paragraph, beginning with the language, "On March 16, 1977," and the ‘second sentence in, "The witness refused to testify, claiming his privileges under the First, Fourth, Pifth. and Fourteenth _ Amendments," not just the Fifth | Amendment. Purther in the next sentence, "the staff continues to explore the leads developed in this area, ‘and the committee is considering recalling this witness to pursue these ques- - tions," again to reflect the status with which the witness left the committee. - BDocld: 322667537 Page 42
amendment. - 40 The Chairman. I think the official language was that | he remains under subpoena to this committee. Mr. Dodd. " Correct. Maybe that would be better said that way then "and he | yemains under subpoena." ‘On page 7, under "Rules of Procedure, " a technical | "congressman James J. Delaney" and “Chairman of the House Committee on Rules" is the proper title of that committee. ‘On page 9, subsection D, "Staff and Budget," the second “gentence, "The committee has," and I have changed the language "been fully briefed" to "discussed at length." Mr. Edgar. Going back to page 7 where the American: Civil Liberties Union letter is noted, I have noted ina number of reports | ‘they do-include letters from the Administra- tion and letters from other people. I wonder what the value would be to make that statement ~and~then include the letter from the american Civil Liberties Union. Is that a bad idea or. excellent idea? Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, may I be heard on that? the Chairman. Mr. Sprague. “Mr. Sprague. T think it is : a bad taea, for the reason that although that letter now supports the rules and supports the continuation of ‘the investigation, they state things that | we allegedly were going to do in the past which we never were Docld: 3272766787 Page 43
ul going to do. Tt happens to be a good illustration of the falsity of things that had been spread around. r do not think that we ought to have their letter here, since ait does state things absolutely contrary to what we ' ever intended to do. Mr, Fithian. On. many occasions, including in. this report, however there are examples | of simply taking or quot- _ing from insufficient sentences; we in the profession do this all the time. We don't use a whole six-page letter when there is only a half page that is pertinent. You put in an elipsis and the three sentences you want and you goon. It is called selective evidence, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sprague. The trouble with that is that you end up with a blank letter. The Chairman. The essence of the letter was the fact that this quote as contained here was the real essence of it. Mr. Devine. I know a number of members that if they see | the ACLU favors the investigation, they will vote against it. The Chairman. That is right. It is a red flag for some | of the menbers .” a . ae a Me. Doda. On page 12, top of. page. 22, the second I sentence, “The committee staff has spoken with the witness who stated that in November 1963, prior: to the assassination of President Kennedy, the witness was personally introduced to Lee Harvey Oswald-by Jack Ruby," has that been Docld: 32266787 Page 44 :
42 corroborated or is that a fact? Mr. Tanenbaum. Yes, it is a fact. Mr. Dodd. It has been corroborated; the committee has received information not yet corroborated that Ruby traveled | to Cuba and so forth? | Me. Tanenbaum. I am just trying to protect you. ‘Mr. Sprague. Mr. Dodd, the statement that is there is absolutely correct: - In other words, we have interviewed a witness who has stated that. We are not in a position of saying whether what that witness is saying is true or not. That is different than the next sentence which is based upon information that we have received of somebody telling us that he was at the jailhouse and he saw Ruby coming there to visit Trafficante. There is that difference. Mr. Dodd. You received information that Ruby traveled to Cuba to visit Trafficante. “you received a statement from a witness who claims that he was introduced to Oswald by Ruby. One is corroborated. | . i oe 7 Mr, Sprague. I will say either is corroborated. I know that we Have a witness who saya the one thing. We have information about: the other, but. we have not. really gone to those sources yet. We cannot state that, in fact, when we go to those sources they are going to be ina position of saying, / yes, they saw it. | | Mr. Dodd. I am just trying to protect against the
&3 og 44 . accusation later that we are blowing smoke. If you want to leave it like that, I have no complaint other than just protect ourselves, that is all. Mr. Fithian. When you say "committee has received infor- mation, not yet corroborated," that leaves me a little uneasy, because it appears as. though the counsel is anticipating : corroboration. 7 | . I was under the impression that that was uncorroborated and likely to remain uncorroborated. The inference I draw from that is that it is not yet done, but we expect to get this done shortly. | . | Mr. Sprague. I do not want to give that implication. He was not yet corroborated. We don't have corroboration at this time. . “Mr. Fithian. | Could we get out of it by striking the words “not “yet* ‘and put in the word "uncorroborated"? The Chairman. Before the word "information"? : Mr. Fithian. Yes.: That is even better. Mr. Sprague. That is fine. / Mr. Fithian. -On page 13, second ‘paragraph, "Recently an ‘FBI informant stated he had seen an FBI agent and Lee Harvey Oswald: meeting.” | ‘Who did. the FBI informant state that to? The committee staffs another tiiformant?- Mr. Tanenbaum. To Dan Rather. ‘Mr. Sprague. My problem there in stating that, I would iy DoclId: 322766737 Page 46
dog 45 10 W 12 1 19 3 24 a5 . Ky not like it to look like a House committee is relying at this point on a report carried by a newsman of what was said to him. It is the basis of the statement that we are making, but I don't like the idea of any notoriety. Mr. Fithian. Say "reliable source." ‘Mr. Sprague. I don't want to say reliable source, either Mr. Devine. You can gay publicly stated, Mr. Dodd. It isa question I would ask if I were look- ing at the report. If I was reading this thing and wanted to poke holes in it, that is one of the questions I would ask. oe ‘Mr. Tanenbaum. We have spoken to the witness on the telephone. He is the witness who indicated previously he want to take a lie detector test. He has indicated to us that what he said then is so. Before he speaks to us any further, he wants to take a lie detector so that we will understand he is telling the truth. Mr. Sprague. I guess the answer to your question is that he has now said it'to us, We can put in there “advised | by the witness." oo | a The Chairman. In talking with him, did you consider that an interview or just conversation? . Mr. Sprague. I would call it an interview. The Chairman, If ‘that is a fact, then you could say “The witness, interviewed by our staff" or "witness we have interviewed." DoclId: 322766737 Page 47
dog 46 a al iW7 18 19 DocId: 32266787 2B ballistics expert," stated that. | was a former FBI “agent. , a 4S Mr. Sprague. My thought was to say "Recently, an FBI informant has advised the committee that." The Chairman. It takes it out of the Dan Rather cate- gory, at least, and puts it here. | Mr. Dodd. Page 15, the third paragraph, "An FBI the thira paragraph down, beginning with the second sentence where you have. the word ‘"others by con- . trast believe that the bulleti:possessed sufficient character- istics." Mr. Lehner. We have one expert, Mr. MacDonald, who has We also have Mr. Haines who stated that, who I don't think we would characterize him as an expert. That is why we left it with that vague "others." oo . Mr. Dodd. “I think you ought to say. “another expert." I think you ought to be clear. Mr. Fauntroy. I think that would be helpful. Mr. Lehner. We can put "an expert." Mr. Fauntroy. oan expert" or "Another expert," but I would not leave’ it as "others." ome, Dodd. The last thing is on ‘the last page of the report, page 235 This. is merely a question. I don't know how it should be done. “Again, I would like to emphasize the committee, therefore, recommends, " and going to the two Ps points here. > 45
. . 46 I would like to emphasize again here that I think the language regarding legislative intent ought to be stated at the conclusion of this report as well. I will repeat it again We ought to emphasize that, however possible, in this report. | T don't know what language, but in addition, that the House reconstitute the select committee and that the House approve the budget; .. The Chairman. ‘Will the gentleman yield to me on that? I am just thinking out loud with you on this. The first thing is that I am wondering whether we need to have this recommendation, and secondly, I am wondering -- we are not asking at this time for action on the approval of the budget. Ir don't know that these two explanations need to be ' included. dust strike: both of those recommendations. Mr. Edgar... Under title of Section 5, it ought to say conclusions. The Chairman. Strike both recommendations. Strike the language on . page. 22 saying wand recommendations." Have. you: finished, Me. Dodd? _ Mr. Doda.” TWO other points. - “One is the statement “today we had a ‘closed session with Mr. Sprague regarding "allegations" and so forth. I would ‘Like to have that, if it is not already, typed up; we are going to need that right away . It may be far too Lengthy to. incorporate in the Congressional Record; I think stapled together and collated, Docld:32266787 Pihge 49 —
log 48 47 it could be available to members to go over. I have had several requests for it. The members who are most concerned about this have expressed satisfaction that those of us on the committee are satisfied, but they still | would like to be able to have access to it. I think that should be done inmediately . “The Chairman. ‘Do we know when that will be ready? Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, it will be ready tomorrow. “We are making copies for every member of the committee so that you can have it for your own use if you want it. The 17th, I guess, would be in the morning. Mrs. Burke. I was going to suggest that if we feel it important enough to be in the record, we could sequentially each sign for an entry in the record for it to appear that way if it was not too long. I think we can get it in the record if we feel that it is justified. Mr. Fithian. ‘Mr. Chairman, I am not sure whether it is . the intent of the committee that it should go in the record. The Chairman. I think there isa consensus generally | that it ought: ‘not go in the record and ‘be picked up by the. press and let them make an tasue of that at this point in | time. So now I think it ought to be kept within the members — of the committee's jurisdiction, and they can share it with those members. when they please. Docld:32266787 Piuge 50
48 ‘Mr. Dodd. I can remember one member in particular who is going to be asking for a copy. The Chairman. It was in executive session, and I don't think he should have it. Mr. Fithian. Congressman Wirth raised the question . originally. Mr. Edgar and I have both talked to him at some length. — | Our artangement is simply this; that we, as a member of the committee, can get a copy of that proceeding in executive session. That if he and his staff person who has gotten as involved in this and dug into it ‘earlier and raised the question, want to come over to Mr. Edgar's office and sit down and read it, that is fine. Ir wholeheartedly concur that to now make this thing public would make --- I think sone reporters are looking for | something to run one good solid story or two between now and ‘our vote on. the Floor. I think it could be handled that way, if they are that interested. If they are not that interested, they should not see it, anyway. | rf they are interested, they can come over to our office . and look at it. “ghe Chairman. I really: want to caution you that that is all this committee needs. Mr. Fithian. I have an altogether different point to raise here, Mr. Chairman. Docld:32266787 P ge 51
a pp 44-87 WP 103 fe | ! | Lapel . pe wry SS RG: O35 | TAB #: O/ S32. ENTRY: oS 7 y, fj COPIES/ PPS. /CLASS. ACCESS. RESTRICTED The item identified below has been withdrawn from this files File Designation Date — From _ _ a / To i _In the review of this file this item was removed because access to He it is restricted. Restrictions on. records in, the National 2 s ) Archives are stated. im general and specific record group. S restriction statements which are available for. ‘examination. The a item identified above has been withdrawn because it contains: 0. Security-Classified Information rat Otherwise Restricted Information KH wns Authority: 3 an . . _ 7 . — wigndrawn by: NSCA John F. Kenesdy As sossinehiin \ Records Callehon Ae of # 19%, (RL, 10a 520) : NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION ; NA: FORM 14000: (5-92) DocId: 32266787 Page 52 : . ,
60 (No response.) The Clerk. Mr. Anderson. . Mr, Devine. Aye, by proxy. The Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy (No response.) ‘The Clerk. Mr. McKinney. Mr. Devine. Aye, by proxy. The Clerk. | Mrs. Burke. Mrs. Burke. Aye. ‘The Clerk. Mr. Thone. (No response.) | ‘The Clerk. Mr. Dodd. '. Mr. pod. ay . | the Clerk. Mr. Ford. (No response «) | The Clerk. Mr. Pithian. Mr. Fithian. Aye. The Clerk. Mr. Edgar. | Mr. Edgar. Aye. | - The Chairman. We have to hold anti the rest come. Mr. Doda. 3 Mr. Chairman, may we ge off the record for a | minute? | | The Chairman. ‘ore, the. record. " (Discussion off. the record. ) The Chairman. “Back on the ‘record. Docld: 32266787 Page 53
61 ‘Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman, I move a roll call on the 2 report. The Chairman. The clerk will call the roll again of 3 - 4 those members who did not answer to their names. 5 - ‘The Clerk. Mr. Preyer. | 6 - Mr. Preyer. Aye. 7) The Cterk. Mr. Fauntroy. . 8 Mr. Fauntroy . Aye. 3 The Clerk. Mr. Thone. 10 (No response.) U The Clerk, Mr. Ford. SC - (No response.) Qo ; 13 The Chairman. Would you announce the vote. & aa the Clerk. The ‘vote is 10 aye, none nay, two by proxy. -18 The Chairman. Accordingly, the report is‘ adopted, as 16 amended. Are you satisfied, Mrs « Burke? Mra. Burke. Is there going to be someone available -- The Chairman, Mr. Sprague. “mr. Sprague. . To respond ‘to Mrs... Burke, the answer is. 21 absolutely yes. he two. people who are. available ‘are Mr. Docld:32266787 Page 54 -y Tanenbaum and Mr. ‘ehner. for any ‘briefing that any member of: 23 | this committee wants, or member of Congress, at any time. Mrs. Burke. I-can give you the names of two people, if 25 the appointments can be set up.. One is Mr. Danielson. The
62 L other person is Mr. Krebs, Mr. Lloyd, and it could be done if 2 someone could take over a memo to Martha Keys of Kansas. She 3 voted against the first time. She might change her vote. ey 4 Mr. Sprague. The only question I have with regard to 5 this is the staff is under instructions from me y and I am. 6 under my own instructions of what I think are the instructions ‘71 of the committee that we do not make and have avoided making 8 any contact on our own with any members of Congress other | 9} than the members of this committee and what this committee 10 sets up for us with any members of Congress. ——ee oY If you are saying to us for us to make this contact and 12 set it up, we will do so. What I would frankly prefer is if a member of this committee who wants to do so would just set © 14 up the appointments, we will comply with them. - 18 The Chairman, Mr. Fithian. | wa 16 Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman, this brings me to the point 17 || I wanted to make before we break up. on ae 18 Starting in about 30 or-45-minutés, Ir will be , Contacting 19 f each member to get from them some time, hopefully before 7:00 - 20 this evening, in any case by noon tomorrow, a final tally of 21 how.we stand on our entire whip count. 22 "Included in the tally r would hope would be the names 23 of individual members whom we, as members of the committee, _24 || believe could or would want to be briefed. At that point 25 then, to make more expeditious use of time, I would like to ‘Docld: 32266787 Page 55
dog 64 63 arrange taking all the names from every member of the committee who needs briefing. I would like to arrange then a series of maybe three, four, five times. when we might get four or five of the members together so that one briefing would accomplish four or five members at a time until we exhaust the list of those who are persuadable but need some kind of briefing, and that -is one of the purposes of this whip count. | The second purpose is to go back to all members that “any individual member here wants to go to with a computerized letter; included in the letter a paragraph or paragraphs that we are devising now and which I would like to have some review by the staff so that we can go back to the individual members of any member of Congress that any member of this committee ‘wants us to. follow up on. 4 We have the capacity to do that with a computerized _letter. All it will take is some individual letterhead from your office and the individuals you want us to send the letter to. We will process them and have these ready for signatures of the members of this committee prior to any vote. We will also ‘report to you, - Mr. Chairman, as to where we stand on this thing, specifically in terms of count. I just spoke to Mrs Devine. His man has been sick, but ra he is hoping to have a Republican count sometime tomorrow. | T will get with you no later than tomorrow afternoon. I would Docld: 32266787 Page 56.
64 _hope all the members of the committee here would make every effort to contact people on their list, because we have to have a hard count by tomorrow at 2:00 in order to put the - rest of the mechanism in motion that we have. Mr. Dodd. . tf the gentleman would yield, . de has got to be before that. We ‘have a whip meeting tomorrow morning at . Wf 9215 in the morning. I would like at that meeting to be able to take our accumulated count, even Lf we do not: have the sponsors, and turn a good portion of that responsibility over to the normal whip operations. That, I think, would increase our possibility of success. | If the leadership of the Congress is pushing this as a whip item, it can be counted in the remaining three or four days. If you can give me that information before 9: 15 tomorrow, at ‘least what you have - Mr. Fithian. I will give you what I have up to that point. I would raise no objection to the regular whip system handling this. I think it is crucial, from my exper- fence today, those of us who are. members of the committee, . to talk ‘personally’ to" some of these people. . . '. There were two menbers today that Ir talked with, and all. we really needed was about five or eixminutes of discussion in which I could simply tell them, nothing that is really classified, but just. tell. them it was my judgment, based on these things, that this thing ought to go forward, and both Docld: 32727667587 Page iF
65 of them made a commitment today to vote for it. We have a very long way to go on this matter. The Chairman. Let ma ask for a point of clarification, — Mrs. Burke. The briefing that you want is not the executive briefing? — | | "Mrs. Burke. Tt is going to take almost that with some of then. | - . . | | | But let me turn the list of those over to. Floyd of those _who need briefings. | The Chairman. It needs to go all the way. ‘Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, we have not the slightest objection, as long as it is set up with members of the Congress by menbers of the committee for an executive brief- ing. . The Chairman. But I agree with the procedure of the staff not contacting any member unless so directed. I talked ‘to Al yesterday and instructed him to call a couple members. I assume that was done.’ I know it was done, in one case. Mrs. Burke. These are people. who asked for briefings. Bat it could be done ‘by this method. We. will try this first. Mr. Sprague. “We: would be happy to have the executive type, full, complete, and let them know what it is. Mrs. Burke. ‘tn the case of one, he is a whip, and it might not hurt. _- | | The chairman. You ought to get to him tonight. The whip
dog 67 Docld:32266787 P ge 59 is leaving us tomorrow. - tomorrow by noontime, so that we can get it. over to the or what those changes are going to be or whether it is going | typewritten, copy of the report to the printing office by , 63 00 p.m. ‘tomorrow, we ‘can meet. that printing deadline of Monday morning. | r was Just allowing a little time tomorrow ‘tomorrow. — 7 a a ' 66 A couple matters. With the committee having voted out this report as amended, when can we anticipate that this report will be ready to file with the House? _.Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, we should have the type-. written draft of this with the amendments suggested here to yo printer tomorrow. They told us the printed copies of that would be ready Monday morning. | ‘The Chairman. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Preyer. ‘Does that have to be ready by noon? I know Mr. Anderson made some comments to Mr. Fithian about the budget provision. t was not sure whether tomorrow is clear - to involve .-- that will take some writing and refiguring of that. | I am wondering if we can get that done by noon tomorrow. Mr. Sprague. Mr... Preyer, as long as we can have the in case after it. ts examined by the Chairman, there is a desire to have : some more changes. We do. have until 6:00 ‘Pom. The Chairman. With that, you also have a matter of the
12 mcd pom. today. 67 members correcting the transcripts and ordering them to be printed. "Have you had someone following through with that? Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, if the members have no amendments or changes to make, we can get them there by 6:00 _ They can be printed by Friday morning. ‘In the event the. members are not in a position to say chat yet, as long as we know by 6:00 p.m. tomorrow, that can be completed by Monday morning as well. - | The Chairman. I would suggest you have someone follow through with each member to be sure that is compiled right. _ ‘There were a couple of other matters that I wanted to get into tonight. Don Edwards' letter; did we have the staff prepare a response to that? Mr. ‘Wolf. Yes; we have, Mr. Chairman. His letter just wants to make it clear that those rules that apply to the | committee staff will also apply to the individual staff person ‘on our staff, designated to be liaison. For example, restrictions on revealing the names of subpoenaed ‘people, et cetera.. I think just to make that ‘clear, it would’ require an amendment to our rules as to what we are constituting. “The Chairman. Would you Prepare a. letter to him in which you advise him that. we appreciate that suggestion and that the matter will be corrected by way of amendment after we are reconstituted. Docld: 322766757 Page 60
- 68 dog 69 1 Mr. Wolf. One point on the report to be filed. On 2 my meeting with Mr. Collins, he requested that the Rules 3 Committee be given, even if it is only a typed version, of e | 411 the report Friday morning. 5 If the Chair would like me to provide a typed xerox . 6 version which will be done by that time. The printed copies 74H will not be back until Monday morning. 8 “The Chairman. “What do you need from us? 9 _ Mr. Wolf. Just your authorization to provide him the 10 xeroxes of the typed copy. — — TH ‘The Chairman. That is on the budget? 2 Mr. Wolf. No, of the report. 13 | The Chiarman. Of the report? 14 Mr. Wolf. ves. | 15 . The. Chairman. I see. ~ 16 ALL right, you have that. ~~ avd One other thing. On Bruton and Baish, when we last met, ===. 1g] you were to check out the usual ramifications of our accept- 19 ing the resignation of Mr. Bruton as opposed to our firing 29 | him. 21 “Mr. Wolf. ‘That is correct. 2 * The Chairman. _ And how it woitld affect the payroll statud. 23 . can you give us a-report on that? 24 Mr. Wolf. surely. It is my recommendation that his 25 resignation as opposed to firing, the committee take the Docld: 322766787 Page 61
dog 70 & & ‘ oe . 69 ‘latter action. It is very questionable whether or not he was fired at that committee meeting held in your office, I ' believe, since the procedures of the committee itself were no followed at that time. There appears to be no difference. We have checked with House Administration, for their purposes, for his back pay claims for any other legal significance to accepting a resig- nation : as opposed to firing. The only possible distinction might. be for an unemploy- ment claim that he would file with the District of Columbia. Tf his resignation were for just cause, he would still be eligible for unemployment. The Chairman. Can we have then -- Mr. Wolf. Because of Mr. Fithian’ s amendment requiring majority of the committee to be present to: terminate staff member , I do not believe a majority is present, so I do not - think action can be taken at the current time either on Mr. Bruton or Mrs. Baish,.who also should be re-fired, if you The Chatman The only thing is; Ir _ think you should be -in ‘communication. with him sO he. does not feel we are ignoring ‘his ‘correspondence and advise him ‘that: the committee has the matter under consideration and that he should be getting a . reply in just a few days. Explain it to him. Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, I do not agree with Mr. Wolf Doclda: 32266787 Page 62
& 70 with regard to Mr. Bruton's situation. As I understood it and from previous meetings, this committee has already decided to accept the resignation of Mr. Bruton as of the same day that that firing occurred, Provided there was no legal difficulty which would occur, and we were to check that. Ehrough. ‘That has ‘been checked -~ . ’ The Chairman. do not think they actually took the action. I think it was left open for him to check it out and return with a report back to us. Mr. Wolf. That is my understanding. ‘The Chairman, and if it was possible to go ahead and accept his resignation, the committee ought to do that. That appeared to be the consensus of the. committee at that time. I do not th ink ‘on the record they formally did. | Mr. Wolf. That is my understanding, Mr’. Chairman. Mr. Sprague. I do not think, for a person to resign, involves the hiring and: the terminating. We are talking. about a different situation. _ The Chairman. He posed “the question in a letter to us whether we had been fired, - and if so, was at done in a duly constituted meeting. of the ‘committee, 2 and so forth. In checking it out, also we ascertained that was really an informal meeting ‘that was called. It was not an official meeting of the committee. That action had been brought to our Docld: 32266767 Page 63
log 72 Docld:32266787 Pige 64 _ : that put the committee in this position, I would like to state | amendment which would preclude anyone from resigning from the and that is what the amendment directs itself to. Therefore, violation of our rules in any way to accept his resignation. | Pithian.. “the only issue is, can the committee accept his concerning the firing. He has requested we accept his have decided to do s0 ‘and that our record will reflect that. ' to. do something by way of substantiating, or something of this 7 attention at that informal meeting. We would not be able to say to him that it was done in a duly and legally consti- tuted meeting of this committee. | | Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman, since it was my amendment for the record that there was never any intention in that staff. I was talking abour forceable separation from the staff, there: is no. problem with the committee, as far as I can see; n If it is a forced termination, then it would be another matter. Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, I quite agree with Mr. resignation as of that same day? The answer is yes. I do not think we ought to respond to his letter with any opinson resignation. | or think we merely ought to respond and say we “The Chairman. . There was another item, as I recall, to the $40 office telephone bill which I had the impression, in’ all probability, they were | Legitimate calls. But he was asked
23 24 eo & : 72 sort. I am just wondering if that is something we do not need, to necessarily get involved in since we are talking about -$40 and we are denying the claim of something in the neighborhood of $2500. Maybe we ought to respond in that way, and we will pay his $40, Spon signing the proper vouchers, and so forth, and then the other members and I will officially have the committee do that. . | Meanwhile, Zim Wolf, you call him and advise him of the status of this matter so we do not encounter a lawsuit on this—point. ~ | | ' Mr. Sprague. I do not think there is any official action required. by the committee under the rules with regard to a staff member resigning. | The Chairman. Probably not. We can check that. If there is not, we can go ahead and reject that. We will recess, subject to call of the chair. (Whereupon; at™ “445 p.m., the committee adjourned, subject to. call of the Chair. ). Docld: 322766787 Page 65