Released under the John F. Kennedy Assassination 
Records Collection Act of 1992 
(44 USC 2107 Note) 
NW 53216 6/17/17
104-10210-10033 7S eter eter 1. Attached are 15 folders containing English-language translations of the 15 transcripts of the interrogations of NOSENKO by DERYABIN during the period 26 July 1965 - 13 Auvust 1965. 2. The following is a kev to the transcripts: a. A DERYABIN. b. B = NCSENKO. c. ( ) = Single sets of parentheses enclose - transliterations. d. (1G), (2G), (XG), (XM) = Indicate a number of missing or garbled or otherwise unreadable words. e. (( }) = Double sets of parentheses enclose transcriber/translator remarks, explanations, etc., and additional information ‘supplied by interrogator, but not included in the interrogation. f. (2? ?) = Queried transcriptions are thus indicated. g. .... = Ellipses indicated either a brief pause in speech or an unfinished sentence. h. = Underlining, except in cases of book and periodical titles, indicate emphasis in speech. WARNING NOTICE - SENSITIVE INTELLIGENCE SOURCES AND METHODS INVOLVED _ E2 INPDET CL BY 011340 eSEEREPS VP Rance cry rete ee cP CEE RENNES ARES ABest oT mR HUES mae ENE ke RE TE a mente ATT
} 3 3. We request return of these transcripts when your review has been completed. : Attachments: 15 Folders : | t be. | i t } — } : ety ty gira tT neRAr gal oath eneerecienet : de once nn nea te tm enn ene cpmenntee Lene lt sia Te AIRY RETA we 2 Pao ae spe RAST | apenienanmmaresingraniaee Fe ih oy ne - Brwutensses
104-10210-10033 Dhaieegde ENA IS ONDE pre COS OMAN as iene As RSEIRN CA ere Phe Db log i hn me Or) AERA A OTHE Spi erect PORE eh lane en Reel #1 26 July 1565 Followins is the conplete translation of the verhatin transcript A, TRANSLATION I thins we will speak in Russian You do not object. No. On the contrary, ketter in Russian, because in English I ((am)) no so ((sure of)) myself.... Over the last three years, tovether with my collearues whom you already know and who have worked with you here -- ((those who)) questioned (doprashivali) ((you)), ((and those with whom)) you met and became friendly, I also have taken an active part in your case Yes. From the very beginning, as soon as your case had begun Unhunh ((affirmation of. understanding) ) And, as you already have been told during the discussions and the investigation, a large part of what you have said cannot be accepted as true (za chistuyu nonetu). And one cannot accept that which you said in your statements (pokazaniya), etc , in just the way that (tak kak) you said or testified (rasskazyvali ili pokazyvali). I think, therefore, that you understand this perfectly. But, as far as the people who worked with you, questioned you, and met with you ‘((are concerned)), all of shen to some degree speak Russian -~j some well, some not so well ~~ ((but)) some do not know the Russian. laneuage at all; it is the same in your case (tozhe samoye s Vashey storony): aeionEn your English — ‘language ‘is good, erener.. i i { |
104-10210-10033 A. “eames opastnnpemenmnstigitin on sen still -~- quite understandably -— there are some expressions and words which are difficult to understand. And, as for as all of the persons who worked with you before this. ((are concerned)), perhaps they do not know or understand Soviet reality very well.... That is correct. ., And therefore, perhaps, for them in some ((cases it was)).... Uta beeen) } Not understood what I am explaining. Not wholly understood; perhaps it was understandable to them, but.... (Cinterrupts)) But not in detail. Not in detail. I am here only for that reason -- in order to clear up all of these misunderstandings which have arisen and existed. I can tell you beforehand that at one time I worked in the KGB, in Moscow, and lived there. And I think that we, as former colleagues and former Soviets, will try to find a common language in our discussion and to clear up everything that was not understandable to us and everything that was not understandable to you. If you have sufficient courage and understanding of what I will say, I think that we will find a common language and finally we will arrive at some common denominator; we will not leave a single puzzling question which would not have been answered or incorrectly interpreted. } I agree with you absolutely. - 7 I am wholly at your disposal. Could you be precise: c spe pe ae E unl
104-10210-10033 an OnE Voce Sateen tee memento ra ibees tne Soe B. sees I am ready to answer all questions. It is another affair that everything I say, everything, is understood ((is viewed or treated)) from the position that it is incorrect and that I... so to speax, ((am)) false (fal'shiv) and came with a definite assignment (opredelennoye zadaniye). But how do you think -~ since, so to speak, you yourself have already raised this question: "They think that ((I am)) false, that ((I was})) sent with a definite assignnent", ete. -- how can you yourself answer: Why are you in such a position. How can you explain this yourself. Absolute distrust... absolute distrust, and then I already have been thinking to myself very much; it already ((has been)) a long time (bol'shoy srok): 479 days today. 479 days -- this is neither ((4793)) hours nor nminutes.... Here ((there is)) quite simply the deliberate ~- so, perhaps, to speak ~~ desire... the deliberate desire of the people (u lyudey): to make a case that... "Well, here a double agent (dvoynik) sits” before us”. As if this were ((their)) aim, ({their)) task. ((It is)) not ((their)) aim-task (tsel'-zadacha) actually to know the truth; but ((instead, it is)) their aim-task to make such a case. Well, speaking in a friendly way, how do you consider ((this)) as a counterintelligence (kontrrazvedka) officer: Do you think that all of the people who worked with you have mis- understood you, etc., so much that -- without reason and without any basis (osnovaniye) -~- they have held (("are holding" -—— derzhat)) you for more than 400 days: As a counterintelligence officer, tell ((me)). I can say only one thing: that I have said, I say, and I will say until the end that I have conferred with absolutely no one; I have not heard a single word fron anyone regarding ({my)) travel (poyezdka) here, ((and)) I shared with no one ((the thought)) that I want to od e Ot) ees. danen
104-10210-10033 wrk ae eaten ee Nhe cancers nee a cnet nee te ne meaner tte stay abroad and not return to the Soviet Union. No one knew about this. Well, anyway, I think you still have not conpletely understood what I said.... ((Interrupts)) About what .. About what I asked you. What ("how = kak) do you think. There was and is some basis -=- do you consider -- for ((the fact)) that you were in such a position as you are now. ... AS I understood == the confusion of ny explanations and.... Here, these monents, perhaps.... fThen.... I do not know, I do not know. I have, strictly speaking <= I cannot say why, why, what is the reason ({"‘main. point" — sut')). I only know one thing -=- that they do not believe me. You yourself mentioned the word: "confusion of explanations" (zaputannost' ob"yasneniy). How do you explain this "confusion of explanations", if you see such a “confusion of explanations"? I do not see special.... ((you)) see -=- when I... and your colleagues who preceded you (s predydyshcnini Vashimi.kollegami) were talking together, even they said to me: ="This here is a lie (vot zdes' nepravdu); this here is a lie". . - ; But the point is not in how I said ((it)) (A, ne v etom delo, kak ya skazal). a ‘ I said that "ZI took part"... "IT did not participate". The point is in that this fact took place or did not take place. wi.
104-10210-10033 In this, I absolutely nowhere, nowhere, made. any mistake or lie. 7 Weneriaere Fa A. As a counterintellivrence officer, I.think, you understand perfectly that, having given ((‘'said" - skazavshi)) one fact, a person must : 5 say whence he knows this ((fact)), how this occurred.... B. Correct, correct. Well, so you understand what.((' thus, as" -~ tak kal)) I say ((to you)) but how does it turn out (a chto poluchayetsya), For exanple, this Paris case; I tell them what (( as" - kak)) I know. “From waere do I know ((chis", they ask me)). “Nonsense, nonsense" ((they say)). ((Lauchs)) How do I know: "But these fellows... from IONOV's section (otdeleniye) told me | . - (Ci say)). "No, Not so" ((they reply)). Well, I cannot say anything more. ‘I heard ((about this case)) only from them. Or they supposed (predpolozhili) such a fact: From whom did I first find out about DE JEAN? So, believe me, believe me; I do not remember who ((was)) first, from where ((I)) first ((found out about this)). First of all, working in the KGB «= here, if you please, is the problem: they do not believe me ((when I say)) that rumors, gossip, etc., pass (khodyat) among the workers there. You have worked ((there)}; you know, if you worked ((there)), how it is: the First Department (otdel) has (('makes" - delayet)) a case, but 10 departments (otdel) know that the First department is doing something, something, ((although)) they do not know exactly ((what it is)). ; But friends, those who have friends in the First Department, they know a little nered that, ahah! ((there is)) a case against an American, but they do not know the name ((of the American)). A. I think that in this respect they understood you perfectly, and I do ; not think.... : = Sg ee ee re ee « (aleesy ae ata sete wll iN R ¥,
1 0 4 ™ 1 0 2 1 0 = 1 0 0 3 3 iii aa ate meiner et Seabee B. ((Interrupts)) 'No," they tell me,"This cannot be. What you are telling us is nonsense," ‘ A, Not in all cases was ((this)) so stated -- that.... ' B. ((Interrupts)) And... believe me ~- well, how: F What kind of trust or distrust can ((there)) be, if they say to ny : . face; "You did not work in the First Section (otdel) of the First Otdel ((during)) these years": I cannot say anything. ( True (pravil'no), in the ABIDIAN Case, I did not look very goog, but I said so ((myself)), that I did not work on it, did not conduct his development (razrabotka); the file was charged to me (delo za mnoy chislilos'). But how was it run: So they surveilled ((him)), waited for ABIDIAN to show his tail (khvost). oO They do not believe me. A. Well, about this.... We still will return to the case of ABIDIAN. I know everything that you nave said about ABIDIAN and so forth; and, of course, as a former employee of the KGB, I never in any way can believe that you were the case officer for ABIDIAN. | ; ’ B. I was not the case officer, I was deputy chief of the section.... A. The more so.... terrible mistake ((‘gross error" -- grubaya oshibka)), a terrible mistake of the department, because it ((is)) necessary to sit and : Oy work on ((a)) case. . ' 4 i t J | B. ((Interrupts)) And they thrust the case upon me, but this was a | | t i} | | A. Well, if.... Earlier you said that ((ym ire)) prepared to discuss 1 fact et er nD’ awl ot
104-10210-10033 {Ret srtemreentinrensen } ea (razgovarivat') and.... B. Yes. oe ka eedate te A. And possibly to clear up everything that.... B. Everything which has not been understood there.... A. Everything which has not been understood and so forth. Let us suppose ((that there)) were very many questions ((about)) how you began to work in the KGB, under what circumstances, etc. I wish that we begin with (C'from" ~~ s etogo voprosa)) this question, starting -- for example -=- from the end of 1952 or the beginning of 1953. B. Good. A. Thus we slowly will move further. I have only. one thing to discuss here; I hope that you will tell the truth: you will explain, corroborate everything that you say, and so forth. i “3 B. ((interrupts)) I ask that you put the questions to me. I will try to answer for you everything that you will ask. tare ptt arth a nk geen tke 6 eat cece manent A. Also, ((be)) sufficiently accurate in your questions, etc., so that there will be no misunderstandings of any kind.... i B. ((Interrupts, repeating)) Misunderstandings. -A. To me, for example, ((this.is)) not wholly understandable -- you yourself know that in the course of the long time you have been here abicduedin wahout you have said several times that you went to work. in the KGB -- or, as it was called then, the MGB; one time you said ((this took place)) in 1952, sometime in the autumn or winter; then you said ((this toot place)) in the beginning of 1953; then you said ((it was)) after the. -_ ; AMES UR od 2 Fi ALTA RAST RANE PLN tt RANT HOME IN ENE DC SCREAM NR NMR er oar nace ge Hoe are rs oat
AOAAGZA OD TOGGS, ete neeeeereteeetorerererteerermrersteeereeerereeomennon “> deatn of STALIN; and so forth. - “B. (16) A. Let us begin, even from the end of 1952, we will not go into details ((about)) what was before 1952. ; i Let us begin from 1952. Whence and how did you show up (poyavilis') in the city of Moscow: B. At the end of 1952 I arrived in Moscow from the city of Sovetsk, ’ Primorskiy Kray: this ((city)) is 10-15 kilometers from the city of Baltiysk, formerly ((known as)) Pillau, ((a)) German ((city)) -- the base of the Fourth Naval Fleet on the Baltic. 10<15 kilometers from this Baltiysk ((is)) the city of Sovetsk, where my MRP -~- the Navy Intelligence Point (Morskoy Razvedyvatel 'nyy Punkt), at which I worked for several months in 1952 <= was located. A. Good. You arrived in Moscow from there. When was this, and under what circumstances’ : Wor what was it necessary for you to go to Moscow at this time: B. I had a puntpesé (tsel'). A purpose stood before me: having come to Moscow, having cone to Moscow, to try -- either through the Ministry of the Navy, because there still were twoministries at that time, ((the Ministry)) of ne the Navy and the Military ((Army - Voyennoye - Ministry)), separately, not together. 3 i } j A. 8o. B, To try to get out of (uvil'nut') the work at this MRP and to think — i | i of something new to transfer (pereyti) ((to)) from ((this)) work. : Because this work absolutely did not suit me; I did not like it, I~ did not receive any moral or other kind of satisfaction from this work. 4 eben? One oe AP Eater
i . : ? eee Here, at this point, I worked only several months in all. B. I absolutely did not like this work. And I went to MNoscov, went to Moscow; I took leave (("got leave" -=- dobilsya otpuska)) and went to Moscow. I just took leave, so: the MRP commander did not permit me ((leave)). A. Well, in what, when was this, in what month did you arrive (Cin Moscow) ). be} In December, I arrived at the end of December 1952. A. At the end of December: B. Yes. A. At the end of December 1952 you came to Moscow: fromSovetsk? B. ((iIn a low voice, not confidentiy)) From Sovetsk, yes. . A. In plain language (prostym yazykov), explain to me what you did (chem Vy zanimalis') ((during)) the first 3-4 days, when you had arrived. B. Well, I just cannot tell you this. IJ have forgotten now. I rested; I did not do anything. A. I have in mind ((what you did)) as any officer ((does)); you were an officer -—- I made ((this)) conclusion on the basis of your statements (pokazaniya). a tebisein Agee You came to Moscow, and so forth; well, alright (nu khorosho) -~ a : you did not do anything, but the officer's duty demands ((that you)) come to someone and report that you have arrived in Moscow, SAS Te ee ett rat ne meet eC a ance ad lniea I Means POLAR OIL ROI sO AE Oe RR a ee ey pesyaria ASN Une =
1 0 4-1 0 2 1 0 “1 0 0 3 3 sree seer one etna ent ESAS ow ty NaHS bm aca abet ee Ren lH EEA I SPD Pee { _B. ((Interrupts)) Well, I did not come on ((an assigned)) business trip (komandirovka). "of A. Upon instruction of some (V ch'ye-to rasporyazheniye)...: B. ((Interrupts)) No. A. ...On some kind of problems, etc. You cannot just come, spit on everything and simply sit at home for .. several months. ‘iB. It is when you, ((when)) a person goes to Moscow on an ((assigned)) business trip (komandirovka), it is one case, but when a person foes on leave (s otpusknym svidetel'stvom), on leave I can =~ not having ; reported to anyone << spend ((my)) leave, return on time and report to the unit (chast') commander, to whom I reported ((when)) leaving, report that I have arrived ((i.e., returned)). A. Let.us assume you went to Moscow; how much time was given ((for)) your leave, a month or how muchy B. A month. A. You went to Moscow; you do not report to anyone; you can live at home, ((or)) wherever you wish, and so forth. i Good. . i After three days, they announced a universal mobilization; what must you do: B. I must. a 7 ae Here, in this case, I must quickly, quickly -- well, here, taking 3 OS into account the work at the MRP, ((the fact)) that I am in Moscow and ((that)) the Ministry of the Navy is located in Moscow == I quickly must telephone and say that I am en leave: I am to go back . a ir to the unit or there will be some kind of instructions from you. YT PIE RLS A RY OR. CCA A eeechiteme in Paani mee Pk ett + Cag Star up cattn whist We
104-10210-10033 neeertrenerteeeretnmniente anatstneianennnnnernnntrsenaanncietri titanate entrant A. But, upon arrival in Moscow, do you not have to register suoneplace: a a ‘ ‘And, if you wished to be a deserter and did not want -= there is a i owar, and you do not want to go to war, then how must they find you: Here is the most simple routine question. B. Well, in these events, you sez, all military units inmediately, you ‘know very well, in the presence (v nalichii) (1G). Say ((‘Give" == Davay)), he says, who of us is present, who is not.... Such and such officers are not present. Where are they, ((B; i.e., Subject's family nane)) is in Moscow. A. Please, we will not £0 into such details. B. You ((yourself)) asked for such details (('so" = tak)). A. I think the question was completely clear: you have come to Moscow on a month's leave; what must you do, who must know that you are on leave, . The affair is not set up so that you,yu understand, have come, and you hang around for a month, and if there had been war, ((you would have said)) I will go to report. If it were so, there would have been a million deserters. Because people are on the register somewhere, and they know . them and that he is here on leave, ((that)) this officer is here, and so forth, and if he is needed, one can call hin. oF i “ B. So, according to the regulations (po ustavu), any officer -- in :the event of a declaration of war, in the event of some kind of critical situation -- quickly interrupts his leave and returns to (Chis)) unit. A. according to the regulations, it is that which is said in the Menneete dD picked aie Lob tan. { 7 I regulations which also will be written up in the plan for mobilization, | : . and so forth.... B. ((Interrupts)) (XG + He quickly interrupts his leave 7). Beg trae pr ase aad ena eraser 8 Ar te a am ede cess ree vinbhen atcha matibereT Nite et RAB er en Rent heehee tens a etm te te tee bene otis tm aa ape oe Salut water oe
RUD Oommen ARE. ue beh meee INE meet feinl Ante Ha anil act Ie AeA ete tte LARA NR HS HME est A eeattenaltve enettineme A, LB, A. Sometimes they did not stop you, they gave you an opportunity, you ae e -..But apart from this, something else exists: some kind of rules, which require that an officer do something upon arrival on leave in any city of the Soviet Union, ((whether)) he coes home or he foes to the Caucasus. About this, where I will be on leave is known to the commander of the unit, the military unit from which I departed, and.... This is understood.... Leave (otpusk), leave, and one goes where. Such ((and such)) a city. The Travel documents (proyezdnyye dokumeniy) are written out in the railway ((travel)) order (trebovaniye na zheleznuyu dorogu), again to that city where you are going. Let us stop here on this, the most simple question. Even here, this little question: how did you go on leave (priyekhali v otpusk): And what did you do ((during)) the first days. With yovr documents, etc., where did you gu, te wiom did you report..? ((Interrupts)) I did not report to anyone. You have not explained articulately even to me. I am explaining to you that I reported to no one. : The very same ((thing)) happened with all of the officers with whom you have spoken previously (ran'she). : talked and talked and talked. i swell bn basen But, believe ((me)), no one can buy ((it)) the way you say, that now this is how it is. | Soviet reality does not work that way, and the registration (uchet) is not carried on (ne vedetsya) in this way, and people do not travel 3 . aac “a moet
104-10210-10033 tree 22h Wy Sr beta, SSS ARDD RL 2c8 BLING eer arcmin ae meetin eminem ek ecco oe ene ernie meeess this way. It is for this reason (Vot poetomu) that I am here.... ((Interrupts)) But I an from there. And I went. I was there, then I came, and I was located there. You understand me; you say that it is not this way (tak i ne byvayet), but I went through (perezhil) this, had ((this experience)). For me, what you are saying is only conversation. You can say as much as you wish.... I understand you, I understand, But for me it is important and wholly necessary that you tell me how this was. You went to Moscow, and you say that you lived at home a. month .and did not report anywhere to anyone.... vaca ((With sarcasm)) You asked me what I did ((during)) the first days, the first days. You do not remember: I told you, well, where -=- at home; I spent ((the time)) at home. Well, to whom ((did)) you -= as soon as you had arrived from Sovetsk, where did you go, to whom did you report? I absolutely did not report to anyone. We will stop on this ((point)).... - How much time did you spend on leave, if you arrived .((in Moscow) ) at the end of December: How much time were you on leave, approximately, until what time’ apan % 1 Vem nent o natene nee Rb hag Lindi baste von
104-10210-10033 “er rrrtreernnes _&B. B. Yes, I here... just... : it is hard to say. Whether: ny leave was finished, or maybe it was interrupted.... . - On leavé in Moscow... . ° The business arose that I would be taken to work in the NGB. . | Through YOBULOV, Bogdan... Zakharovich, and I in turn announced in the Ministry of the Navy, on Personnel, to Colonel XALOSHIN, Chief of Personnel of Navy GRU, that I was processing ((‘an processing" = oformlyayus')) and I would be ((“will be" - budu)) processed (XG) into the MGB: "I am announcing this to you.” Alright (khorosno). Let us begin from here, since -~ I make my own conclusion -= you were not of a mind (ne v sostoyanii) or did not wish or 4< not wish to - explain truly and correctly how you came to Moscow, to wher you reported, etc. Because there is no way to worm out aE this (ni kak eto ni v kakiye vorota), there is no way to get around it ((same-expression)); do not think, you, that you are the only person who has come here. Many Soviet. defectors come, many officers, and the rules which a person =~ a Soviet officer -= must observe on leave are written in - his officer's identification (ofitserskay2° knizhka); Rule (("point" — punkt)) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I even can imagine ((that it is)) not compulsory == and no one insists -- that one would come to Moscow and right away on the second day must run ((to report)). It happens (Byvayet) a person sits for three days, and.... But (XG) ((A and B talk at the same time)) Or the military commissariat (voyenkomat), or the military commissariat, if this is.a simple officer... . I do not want to put (postavit') "someone" (“kto-libo"), who did you put when.... I did not put anyone. roees rtm nes Ase: aFAu ania
104-10210-10033  ™™ i } i When I had- arrived, just after New Year's, after several days, I went to (puyavitieys) the Ministry of the Navy. . a , . : May be after about ten days, seven, ecigzht, and announced that I was processing ((‘am processing" - oformlyayus')); the problem of ny 3 transfer from the system of the Navy to the system of the Ministry for State Security was resolved (("is resolved" ~ reshayetsya)). A. Good, Let us leave this question.... We stili can return to this ((later)). .B. As you wish (pozhaluysta). * A. How, under what circumstances, and where did the conversation first come up that you expressed the desire -- or that someone proposed -- that you transfer to work in the organs.... B. Of the HGB. i A. Of the NGB. : B. It was at KOBULOV's cacha ((country house)). Prior to this, father knew -—- I kad spoken with father previously -= that I did not like this work. More than that, when I left Baltiysk -~ I told you -—= the unit commander, the commander of our Navy Point, he of course did not want to let me go on leave, and I turned (obratilsya) -~ at a reception to Commander of the Fleet Arseniy Grigor'yevich GOLOVKO, father’s pal (priyatel'), and said..... ‘A. We will return to this. 3 an - And we will come back to GOLOVKO and to the Chief of your Intelligence i Point, and so forth.... B. No, as I.... Sactpasteten nth 1 Sadia bait SIAMESE LS OIE etna ransom emmmeninah nents weenie A. We have begun now to talk ((of)) how and under what circumstances -- “ou
104-10210-10033 ~ ‘SO, not upset, calmly, sinply -- they found you, you found a person with whos to talk of goinz to work in the MGB, B. While a guest, with ny father and nother, at KOBULOV'sS <= it was on the first or second of January at his dacha. The conversation was brought up: “And what are you doing." I said what I was doing ((‘am doing" = delayu)), where I was working (C'am working" - rabotayu)). A. One minute. “The conversation was brought up: ‘What are you doing: '" I have one question here, Why did you and your family happen to be at KOBULOV's dacha: i B. ((Smiling}) There was a phone call. At this time, KOBULOV was working in the GUSINZ, GUSIMZ system. But maybe it was as cover ((that)) he was registered with (chislilsya) GUSINZ, as Deputy Chairman, GUSIHZ -=- that is, the Chief Directorate -of Soviet Property Abroad (Glavnoye Upravleniye Sovetskim Imushchestvom Zagranitsey). But he had been in Berlin, as chief of "BISMUTH". ((Soviet mining and development concession, "Wismut"; in Russian, Sovetskoye ak ts ionernoye obshchestvo 'Vismut')) -- all uraniun extraction. (("developuent" — razrabotka; mining and processing)). ‘And he was in Moscow. He knew father. Well, they, many knew. He rang up father; for what, why, I do not know; in any event, he. invited ((ug)); or maybe father invited him to ((visit)) us at our dacha, but he ((KOBULOV)) said: "I cannot; no, better, perhaps, » a . (lit you come)) to me", . SO , Well, all in all, we went as guests, for a few hours (1G), to | - KOBULOV's dacha. : A. ((in English)) Well. Sere Net an I think you must say a little more: what — had ((your)) father ype eh aetna nna eotentigir ae hae eee %, mre “ tein | | aa
104-10210-10033 Jai NAGAR LER TA a NOOSA RAMU Dee LN tlm Nene ae detaente anh eAmMieinnee utuenn uence th ee mae ean sae “Al = and KOBULOY known each other: long, or had you and KODULOY known each _ other long. It does not happeiso simply; if I, for exanple, do not know KOBULOV, 4 Me I cannot ring him up: "Please come to ((visit)} met" ede ete Salen rachel hae (-One minute; I will explain to you now. ) Father had vorked, so to say, in such posts since 1938, He knew the Hinister or Deputy ((ilinister)) from any Ministry. KOBULOV also had worked for many years as a Deputy Minister and also was among the "hisher-ups" all the time. But they know each other ((2G ~ A and B speak at the same time.)) You understand that it is not important that your father had worked in the Ministry of Ship-building or some other Industry; specifically, this -- I would say -- had no relation of any kind to the NKVD, where KOBULOV at one time was Deputy ‘Winister. Here there must be something linking their friendship, something further on which it was built, either a simple acquaintance or as.... ((Interrupts)) I understand, It could not have heppemi just so, that he phoned and (i vot).... ((Interrupts)) They meet at receptions, they meet at conferences, they know each other, then perhaps they run into each other on problems; so to say; there were some kinds of common problens. Let us assume, for very many years the MVD carried on construction; the most secret and most complex ((construction work) ) they carried a out with the MVD troops (silami voysk MVD): SPETSSTROY . . a. ob, Perhaps on this ground; I do not know on what eround they are . ; acquainted, but they are acquainted, and they have known each other / es for a long time. And not only ((that)); father knew many, many, just. as those who- were working "at the top (naverkhu)" knew hin. pet Hy ge ~ Let us begin from this. : ; ae:
104-10210-10033 9 “fre They knew many, etc. --} this is another question. I wish to establish here only what mutual relations there were between your family and the KOPULOVs and why it happened.... B. ((€Interrupts)) Before this.... A. ... that you happened to be at KOBULOV's dacha, at a-party and at dinner or who-xnows-what, B. Before this ((period)), I do not remenber that our families were associated, so to say. KOBULOV's family or our family -~ I do not remember such a question. They knew each other: KOBULOV and father. Well, they addressed each other by first name: ((father addressed : KOBULOV as)}) Bogdan, ((and)) he addressed father =< Ivan. Such ((was their form of)) address. But by families I do not remember; there was no such event before this. Maybe, maybe, before New Year's they saw each other somewhere: in the Kremlin, at a meeting, somewhere; and maybe therefore Bogdan KOPULOY telephoned to congratulate ((father on New Year's)). It is customary, you see: ((for)) New Year's, some congratulate on the thirty-first, ((those who)) who are not visiting (kto ne v gostyakh), vho are at home; some send telegrams, but this is to ((those in)) other cities; but some call even on the first, phone around to their acquaintances. Well (Vot), perhaps KOBULOV phoned, because I remember that there was. acall, namely, from KOBULOV. KOBULOV himself phoned and congratulated father: "((I congratulates) you on the New Year, Ivan; well, what are you doing?" Oo "Nothing much; the family is ((just)) sitting here; maybe we can get together and have a drink.” A. But are you sying exactly how it was, or are you imagining and presenting.... ER RAISE BPS HEANOR NINSUS CEPA UO LEY Send RAUL AAD at c0 me ab ettheeces nertbatr dus sess an eenen, ee eR SE get
{ 4 ! ‘ i B. No. i A. ... (Cit)) as it nust have been (C'must be" =~ dolzhno byt')). B, ... I was not a witness ((as to)) how father talked with him on the telephone; I am speaking ((of)) how it is in life, how it is and how it was, judging by that meeting which took place (proshla). A. In short, you were not present during this conversation.... B, ((Interrupts)) During father's telephone conversation, that (to chto).. A. ... ((That which)) you are telling me about phone calls, etc, -= it is only, so to speak, ((that which)) you offer or imagine.... _B. ((interrupts)) That Bogdan phoned.... A. (1G) B. That KOBULOV phoned -- exactly ((as it happened)). He spoke with father -~ exactly. But that he invited ((us)) <= exactly, since we went. A, How many times before tnis meeting, before this meeting, did your family and KOBULOV's famiiy meet as families. B. I am telling you that I do not know of one instance (ni odnogo fakta) ((in which)) they met (vstrechat'sya) as families, visited (naveshchat'sya) each other at their apartments tea kvartire) or dachas. —_ | . Despite. the fact that. mother also knew KOBULOV's wife, exchanged greetings with her —- "Good day (Zdravstvuyte). She saw ((her)) at a parade or reception or in a shop of the Council of Hinisters or another place. Ae ah VA MOE LA ES ENG A Om er NE SA LMI et An meme A. But did you yourself see personally that they exchanged greetings, _ ; i - Divan Samat ener “4
104-10210-10033 nnn crm nie or are you again imagining and offering ((that which you have etter medical Sie 7 inagined) ). B. I myself have exchanged greetings ((with her)), I know her == KOBULOV's Wife ~= by face. : Then, you see, the fact is that my acquaintance, VAXHRUSHEV, was married to KOBULOV's daughter, and ((Pauses)).... A. We will return to VAKHRUSHEV, also. Today, I want only one thing -- ((that it be made)) clear and understood what kind of mutual relations there were at that time ((between)) KOBULOV'’s family and your family and ((between)) you personally and Bogdan KOLULOV i B, «At that time I personally had none ((no mutual relationship)) with Bogdan. | ((XG; A and B speak at the sane time)) A. Personally met before this meeting: B. There was no one time, either at his partment or at his dacha. i I could have seen ((‘‘could see" — mog viden')) him at a parade, ((or)) somewhere else (1G). A. But you never talked ((witi hin) ) B. No, no, no. a ath Sie SOR RUNT sees ce A. You did not talk ((with him))- B. Ko. + eerste enti meer gett A. Now let us go to the second stage of our talk. How did the conversation come about that -- there was a conversation about work in the MGB; ((was it)) at this party at Bogdan’s: +R a oN. St A Sm tml HAA tr at Peseta ee mien weo-umn tea # anaes oe eat its (nate eng
104-10210-10033 rrr gebio # nalts eee te VICAR NM hah 8 Era A 2a An IE ARTE SES SACRA ACER AEE ORY eo mbTE Re Sem OTte Mtns AMEE YIN ton neette AerIEEb Stink a wae Pu rene Bim ree = B. Well, there was a real dinner (deystvitel'nyy obed). Who was present: KOZULOV hinself, his wife, daughter, and the daughter's husbnad, Vasiliy VAIGIRUSIEY. Also there with them ~=|{ I have in mind Vasiliy and the daughter <= ((was)) a son, six or seven years old. And there was also.... “Which VAKHRUSHEV, the elder or the younger (("the father or the son"! = otets ili syn)): The younger ((‘'the son" = syn)). VAKHRUSBEV elder died long ago. - Unhunh ((affirmation of understanding)). And Bogdan KOBULOV's brother, Amayak KOBULOV, was there. Lieutenant General Amayak Zakharovich KOBULOV. There was no one else. But, on your part: On your family's side: I, mother, father. The three ((of you) ): Yes, Please continue. Well, how did the conversation come up? - Well, it was aftex dinner. We were sitting, laughing, joking.. Well, let us suppose then that mother was talking ((C'is talking" - razgovarivayet)) with the wife, I was talking with Vasiliy or with then. ue me ARs BN % Be
104-10210-10033 =“ Well, you do something I was =- I do not remember —~ I had come in ecither civilian clothes : or uniform; I do not even remember. : ? The conversation about me simply arose (zashel): What was I doing. Where was I working: Perhaps Vasiliy raised the question, because Vasiliy had studied at the same institute as I, only he ~= VAKHIRUSHEV ~- had graduated two years earlier. I said that I was working in the GRU system of the Ministry of the Navy. ‘In the beginning, my work (pervonachal'naya moya rabota) «= work in the Far East -~ satisfied me. The work here «= several months on the Baltic -= absolutely did not satisfy ((''does not satisfy")) me, and I have, I came here not so much for the sake of leave, but took leave in order to think of something, to find something, a place for work to which to go. Well, Bogdan “Sakharovich was interested. Tnere father and I were sitting (( sit")); there sat Vasiliy and Amayak; I do not remember whether or not mother was listening. I said this and that, this and that (to, to, to, to). “But what are you doingy™ i I told what kind of work, the preparation of so-called ANPs «= Agent-Surveillance Posts (Agenturno-Nablyudatel'nyye Posty) << against the event of war in the future. “Well, that's all. "My role, speaking generally, comes down to nothing, because I have absolutely no experfence in this work, and, as a matter of fact, I am «= in crude language =-- a second tail sewed on a mare (KinneeeeGaryy "This work absolutely does not satisfy me, does not please me. "To where: ((Where to go. )) "I even do not know to where. | ft "To the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to ((the Ministry of)) Foreign i Trade, 1 sheolutely do not know where. ((to go)). , : ; i "I absolutely do not know." ((Pauses)) A. Please (: continue’ ) oo Soak ay altck NF ANS LS RR eee enn Sinema ne ae Mente ainrenNtitir tS haf nLite Sinem ent Meee tates,
event tps en come Tap sein abner wants anode ine acai la NO Aaa Ne 104-10210-10033 “mere i. B, Well, when Bogdan Zakharovich KOBULOV found out that I had had the same education (obrazovaniye) as Vasiliy VAIHRUSHEV, ((he said)) "Well, where do you wish. Do you wish." . Well, I even do not know exactly how he said ((it)). I cannot tell you word for word. - . I cannot tell you word for word. He suggested to me: "How do you view work in the organs ((with : uncertainty)) of Security:". ((1 replied,)) "Excuse me, I do not know this work, and ((Pauses)) I have not worked ((there))." A, Do you remember exactly how and what he said or not? B, No, I do not remember word for word; no, no, no. ; The conversation came up; le said to me: "How do you view work here’" I said to him that "I do not know; if it is interesting work, then (CI will accept it)) with pleasure." A. He said the word, “here, or.... . B. (C(interrupts)) Well, in the Ministry for State Security, in the Ministry for State Security. A. I do not wish to "hook" you (byt’ ‘zakoryuchkoy), but.... B. . ((Interrupts)) The Ministry for State Security was what was meant (imelos' vvidu). A; How did he say it: In the organs of State Security, or how: i i i ‘ ' 4 i B. This I, I absolutely do not rmamember this. Whether he said-in the Ministry for State Security (Gosbezopasnosti) or in the organs of State Security, or he simply said in State fp eeesenetmentetnimtn ca mane grein rent + Security =-- I do not remember this. A. Perhaps he said in Counterintelligence (Kontrrazvedka): _ + SRRITINITER NZ EEL noite IU Den be tinea TAMReR ARR eee mye nam ete Rete ein ot enn on 5 nate ed vareveeeetins anne: wegrumee eeritelentew ener unueenes
104-10210-10033  "rtreren*e “B. No, A esemm se ney mane Let) LRAT ITH caste all Albis AOD ae ARE OM eT LLL OA ene IO RNA ol Pattie ieee mae Palen ALAR ant a There was no talk of intelligence or ounterintelligence, absolutely none (absolyutno ne bylo), and I #-}j until the beginning, until I began worl: in March -=- I did not even know where I would ((C' will" budu)) work. . | I did not know. A. I, of course, would aot have wanted to remind you that, for example, earlier you said, for exanple, that when- they questioned you in 1964 you explained about KOBULOV a couple or three tines before this, etc.; at two points (('in two places" +— ¥ dyukh mestakh)) you emphasized straight out that KOBULOV had said te you: "And how about work in counterintelligence, in the organs of counterintellicence." B. I do not remember the word, “counterintelligence"; I do not. remember the word, “counterintelligence". . He.could have said only one ((thing;): -work on foreigners, or against foreigners, or on foreigners. He could have: said. that. But the word, "counterintelligence", I do not remember. But, you understand, working in counterintelligence, I of wourse could have said this. A. You must understand that this is a very important moment. B. I absolutely do not understand this. It means I an #0 stupid that I consider this absolutely not the important moment you say it to be (kak bylo skazano). It is absolutely not inportant ((whether)) it was said “in the “ Ministry of State Security (v Ministerstve Gosbezopasnosti)", because ((B's family name)) wished to work, or “you will work in the organs of State Security (v organakh gosbezopasnosti)," or “you will work in State Security (v gosbezopasnosti)". It is, you know, one ((and the same)) Ministry. A. The point is not in how it was said ((to you)), but in how you have aniana vere ann i meen Sheeras ans t roy
HT Aer eA POO epee eR AI RRR S ET oe: SOMO RN a ENTE WHR Reha | sesebe pet ey te ee . Until today.... I do not remenber how it was. It was better for me, then, to say.straight out: I simply was working in the organs, I was working in the organs, I was working in the organs (rabotal v organakh), As far as I know, you at one time emphasized that ((it was)) "How about work in counterintelligence. " Understand me == I did not know where I would (("will" ~- budu) work, in intelligence or in counterintelligerce. I did not know -=- this I remember exactly. I did not know. Now you say that Bogdan said to you or asked you, "How about work...." ((Interrupts)) What do I think (Chto ya dunayu).... ",.. In State Security, or what do you think...." Well, “in the organs of State Security", "in the Ministry for State Security", "in the MGB" or how((ever)) it was said. Alright (shorosho). Continue. What else ((‘'further" = dal'she)): Well, I understood him, that he has broad connections at his disposal and that he will help me in this problen. I told him that I was on ((‘am on" « nakhozhus')) leave. When ((it would be))} necessary for him either to somehow ((one word tale? i i i i i aria Rageaine +
4 onitted in conversation; probably neant "contact")) me, in order to a= I, well, I do not know «= in order to put me in sone hind of official position. a He said: "Do not worry about this. They will do it; this will be the work of Personnel ((Department)), and they wil] put your Kiinistry in the know." ; , I asked: "But will you set it for me or not." I do not remember what he answered, but to my mind he said, "It is wot your affair; they will handle this without you." For all that, I soon, soon == well, maybe after several days <= in the Ministry of the Navy, I told about this (ob etom fakte). A. This conversation, then, took place on the first or second of January 1953, with KOBULOY at his dacha. B. ((CWithout certainty)) Yes. A. What more (Chto dal'she bylo): | The party ended, KOBULOV left or you left then. What more did you do during the month of January: a EB. I do uot remember whea it was, but there was a phone call, at the apartment on Gor'kiy Street (ulitsa.Gor'kogo); there was a phone call, ((and)) they asked me ((to come)) to the telephone; they said that they were talking (("are talking" - govoryat)) with me from the Ministry for State Security. A. Approximately when was this’ | B. In January. A. In January. Be eta Og RUE Pte romeo In January. ; A, How, approximately, was ((this)) said toyouy Fhws sot hs AUS Sh SRNR ce ROTM Manatee manetneniiteninl,  sinrmtmemanintenttmrte heer metie 4 oo a s aca
104-10210-10033 Sr be hs san sanmemmenia nt maaan smasantentesnebetsan seared nt nnentrtmnrenrmaemanmserar ain uta 26 © ane aD tee see ce NE! 1 B. 1 vas told that-they were talking with me from the Ministry for State Security, that I should cone to the Pass Dureau (Lyuro Propuskov) on Kuznetskiy Most. . There I would receive a pass and go to the building where -- the roon ({(number)) was indicated on the pass <= where they would (( will" — budut)) talk with me. When was this: In January. . In January In January. When did you go there’ They told me the date, and.... Let us suppose that the phone call. was today. -= I do not remember <= today I went, or on the following ((day)) -- when((ever)) they told me «-- I went to Kuznetskiy Most. I received a pass, appeared at Building (Dom) 12, Building 12, ((there is)) an entrance (pod"yezd) there; now, ((wait)) one minute, Building 12. Tis is an entrance (vkhod) not across from Building 2, but from Malaya Lubyanka... an entrance (vkhod)... around the corner. Cn Malaya Lubyanka, there is a courtyard (dvorix) and here is the entrance (pod"yezd), then, to FINO ((Finance Department))... ( (Counts on his fingers:)) one, two, three... the eighth or ninth entrance (pod"yezd) . The Party Committee (('Partkon")) is located at this entrance (pod"yezd), and at this sane entrance the Komsonol organization of the Committee ((for State Security)) is located. At this same entrance is a dietetic restaurant. At the same entrance is (("site" - sidyat)) Personnel (Kadry). sing eve ebsites ae ANAL LN MRC TEC REIN SEE CAE PEL RSE Re NSO ROR Ala sone eae neem Meee Cant 1
wes | A, Well, let us stop on this ((point)). Let us speak frankly (pryamo): if you know to what entrance (pod"yezd) you came, then please say ((so)); if you do not know exactly, please say ((so))... B. I said the etghth or ninth entrance (pod"yezd) of Building (Dom) 12. A, You have explained to me almost exactly what is located at the eighth entrance. Let us stop for a minute on the ninth, the ninth entrance. Where is this entrance, and what was located there. B. I told (skazal) what was located there. A. What was located ((there)), At the ninth entrance: B. At this entrance, on the secend floor (na «torom etazhe) -=~ a restaurant, a dietetic restaurant. A, This is at wnat entrance: B. This is the eighth or ninth entrance. A. But more exactly: B. I can draw for you ((a picture of)) what entrance I have in mind, but I do not remember the numbering (numeratsiya). It is not necessary to draw ((a picture)) for me, because I see all entrances (pod"yezdy) so very well. - i re = ae ene ine reg ne ete tine Deere taming owes B; Well, alright (khorosho). , i The fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth. { i i i | | { | : ar i A. Let us stop. a my § | No, there is no ninth, then, ((but an)) eighth. j
104-10210-10033 re erren renter ctirotennertineesoneaiatotninrstenrs sori tt CNL REL ORE OD Sn IER nL “ad etm A rate Rlneen mmmnm ee Fea mn meme me Sr ont sare A, fe od The eighth entrance. What is located at the eighth entrance. At the eighth entrance, the dietetic restaurant on the second floor; at the eighth entrance -— ((there is)) the library. So. At the cighth entrance on the seventh floor; the seventh, it seens, either the seventh or the eighth there -- the Party Committee (Partkom) of the Committee ((for State Security)); one floor up (etazhom vyshe) -- the Konsouol organization of the Committee ((for State Security)), and here, at this same entrance, Personnel (Kadry): the sixth or eighth or ninth -- these floors; I do not remember. Again. As a former KGB employee to a former KGB employee, I wish simply to remind ({you)) that if you know exactly what was located at the eighth entrance and you went to the eighth entrance, then please say so But I have told you what was located ((there)) and where I went. For your information, no one from the Personnel Department ev:2r was located at the eighth entrance. I was a ROZHENKO's ((office)), chief of the Personnel Section (otdeleniye Kadrov), if you want to know. At ROZHENKO's (1G), surnane (familiya) I know. I do not want nov to pose: the question that you never saw ROZHENKO, Probably you even saw him and talked ((with him)), but ((the question concerns the fact)) that at that time ROZHENKO never sat at the eighth entrance. It was precisely he who was sitting (Inenno on sidel) ((there)) as , Ly { i j t B ! eae NRE eee me eee re nee Bet et Thee natal BASS,
104-10210-10033 he nen ea tenet te eth (te Rae kane tate: ok 7 eae ne 2AM a aR RA ARE SRO AON rh Ratha Patina A, ‘| 4 as chief, being chief of the section (otdeleniye), in 1353. He was chief of the section, and he was sitting ((there)), and I : ‘ talked with him in 1953, before the beginning of ((my)) work there. Or, one time he saw me, ((and)) I talked with him. . ((XG -= A and B talk at the sane time)) Here ((is)) Building 12. You worked there -~ if one is to believe what you have told us before this «= quite a long time (dovol’no prodolzhitel'noye vremya). In Building 2, In Building 2. It is nearby (Eto ryadom), you yourself know. Well, let us begin in order -= what, after 10 years ((there)), must you nost likely know approximately, what entrances there are in Building 12 and even what directorates (upravleniye) or departnents 5 (otdel) were there: Imagine that you still ~— until the present time «~~ are in the NMGB or KGB, and you simply and in a friendly way are telling and explaining what you know. I not at all pose the question that you never talked with ROZHENKO, that you never saw ((him)), etc., but that you said that a restaurant is there and library is there.... ((Interrupts)) All on the eighth (Vse na 8-om). .-.And the Party Committee (Partkom) is there — all of this is Se eee ce correct, but one ((thing)) that. I want to say.... soe eR ((Interrupts)) . The Personnel Department. ver et oo Mater eee cere te Hee geen + ~ -«. The Personnel Department was not situated on this eighth floor (etazh) at that tine when you went to work in the organs of the MGB, ; ‘ and it never was (i ne byl). . we Fh wie ~—e Lge *
104-10210-10033 ee TSA tab HAE tithe ee SUED ATEN cee A AST aN WORN Maat ates oo B. I cannot tell you that the whole Personnel in its entirety was ((‘sat" - sidel)) at this entrance (pod"yez4) -- no, not in any case == because Personnel wns scattered (iiadry byli razbrosani), but those, those with whom I tallied, the people -- to my thinking, I was on the sixth floor (eta:h). (:To ny thinking:), they talked with me on the sixth floor. On the sixth floor. ROZUERXO's employee, from ROVIENZO's section (otdeleniy«), talked with me, I do not even remember his nane. So both (/ROZIENKO: ) and everything, everything ((is)) at this sane entrance (pod"yezd). You see, the question stands before ns == either we will continue the conversation and -=- as they say -=— put your case in order, as you promised from the very beginning, or we will move on to a completely different subject. Please, I am here only in order to help you and to have a correct presenta= tion and to give my friends who have worked with you here some information. Because they cannot believe what-you say. I even more cannot; even more, I cannot. Unfortunately. Well, alright, if you were there for 10 years, let us stop here: what was at the ninth entrance (pod"yezd)-. I have told you what was at the ninth entrance. I do not know more ((of)) what was there. You explained the eigath to me. wt + “i 43 f i. Z i woth ena si oo oren ey eee Ty ere oe OF pene
re B. Well, the eighth entrance, vell, I have in nind this last entrance lonechnyy pod"yezd); generally speakinre, there was no ninth in Building 12. Decause, you sce, from this, the front,side of Building 2, Building * 2, so, Building 2, opposite Building 12, from this side, then, the Dak hd neice ete last entrance (pod"yezd) ((is)) the fourth, the fourth, where the i 4 Second Department (otdel) of the OfU was located (C'sat" = sidel)); - the Sixth Special Department (Spetsotdel); the Sixth, well, now this is the OTU, the Sixth, the Sixth Special Department, part (chast') of the Second Special Department, not all. Now, you go around the corner, around the corner, no, Malaya Lubyanka Street (ulitsa), here it is -- Malaya Lubyanka, around the corner there is not one entrance (pod"yezd), but a small doorway to the courtyard (a vkhodik ve-dvor), a grille (reshetka), an iron grille; you enter the courtyard, here ((is)) the fifth ((entrance)) -- I never (('not once” = ni razu)) entered the fifth; the sixth entrance «~ I wont in the sixth, it ((is)) FINO, there, eoncemine money and travel documents; the seventh entrance =- whether I was te of there or not_I do not even remember; the eighth entrance ~- this - here is the last. Well, then, here ((are)) the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth -- the last -~ ((that is)) all. There are no more, This is in one small courtyard (dvorik). That ({is)) all of the entrances of Builging 12. A, Well, where is the ninth’~ B. There is no ninth. . I simply said ((‘'say" ~ govoryu)) the eighth or the ninth. This entrance is the eighth. | Because here from this side the fourth ((is the)) last, opposite Building 2, but here -=- around the corner <= there is the entrance to the courtyard and these entrances: fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth. BE eerste ee eta emsee eae FF POE Ter ees ((Taat is)) all. area i adebtariaiseen Nin AETHER DALY I OYE ATONE ENS ADEA RRP AARNE Le mG en hm senate an aie een cee Ate me Soe ovate rere Bane —
104-10210-10033 Tarte ede Le RCE ah SIG UN {RH CUA, eC A eRe nee resin ats seome ure seenupeabenyee © se A. We will return.... (Cinterrupts)) We will return.... ((XG - A and B speak at the same tinme.)) (Ciiait)}) One minute; we will return to these entrances. i cannot in any way imagine that a person who has worked for 10 years in counterintelligence can say, could try to state to a person who worked ai the ninth entrance that there is no ninth entrance. I cannot in any way understana this. I do not mow, I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. I am telling (Ya govoryu) ((you)) what I know.... Listen, a person who has worked so many years probably knows how many entrances ((there are)) in Building 2 and in Building 12. I say that ((there)) is not. There cannot be a ninth entrance there, because further on behind nis building is (( goes" = idet¥) the Moscow Oblast and Moscow City pivectorate (Upravleniye Moskovskoy Oblasti i Goroda Moskvy) ((of State Security)). ((That is)) all, and there is nothing more. Correct, but where is the ninth entrance.: I do not know where the ninth ((is)). There is no ninth. . I do not know the ninth entrance, because, right away, you see, this small courtyard, so,- the iron grille, the end, this little courtyard ends here, here a part -— the restaurant comes out here onto Lubyanka and just (srazu zhe) after the restaurant, it comes up nearby, here it is as Building 12, a continuation of Building 12, the Directorate of the City of Moscow and ‘of Moscow Oblast. ((That is)) all, ((that is)) all. ua : 3 . { | i ! i { cei ebieiheominaenemier tae wee Carbaie redhat. be eniiedede ab os rar gerne
104-10210-10033 Se reetts ere eer ERIE EI EINE HEL ISON ev SEE Le EN ENT eT eT EE EL cay J ARRAS UR at, COIR Cee RAIDER “Dat, 5 <A ROREE ITN epee imeem rin Renee mee pent ne nme treme rin ma ye arte <ninte team eanarte tam ig te Sem eaten A, I agree, I agree. ((Tnat is)) all. But ((there is)) the entrance from Lubyanka, of course, Alright Cchorosho), Let us suppose for a minute that you have arrived in the Fersonnel Department (Otdel Kadrov); whom did you first meet there: Let us begin a little further back (nemnozhko nazad), with the Pass Bureau (Byuro Propuskov): you have arrived in the Pass Bureau; ((In English)) what next- There is (Vot) a little window (okoshechko). I gave ((them my)) officer's identification (( ‘officer's booklet" = ofitserskaya knizhka)). I seid that there is a pass (propusk) for me. They said, "Wait." But, as usual, they take your document, close the little window, and you wait. The little window opens, the officer's identification is returned with the pass, the pass. In the pass it is indicated, then, Building 12, the entrance, such= and-such a roon. But do you now remember. which entrance and which room this ((was))? No, no, ro. Do you still insist (Vy vse nastaivayete) that this place was at the eighth entrance (pod"yezd):. At the eighth; ves. Yes, yes, yes. I went (shodil) to this entrance, only to this entrance. And when I talked with ROZHENKO and with this person -~ to ny thinking, I talked with him two times. it Sheaves So ae care anette asa * ye aoe, S
104-1 0210-10033 ag learner canieenta dine baer’ 4 i a 4 to 4 A. Yho ((was)) this person. 5 oad deta ot B. I do not know ((his)) surnane. . ee In my opinion, ((he was)) a case officer cr senior case officer. ioivipanagsmacine easy A. You wept there. | To whom was ((your)) pass made out (byl vypisan)* To ROZHENKO. B, No, no. The pass was nade eut, room sucheand-such six hundred... there, to my thinking, six hundred... to my thinking, the sixth floor, but I do not remember exactly. Whether there was shown (ukazano) a name (faniliya) -- ((it)) must : 7 be shown, but I do not remember -= I do not renember, I do not | remember, I do not remember. I cane to this -- I remember, then, that when I came to this roon, I went up; I went in the eighth entrance, went up... wait, where cid I remove ((my coat))- I took off ((my coat)) here, downstairs (vnizu); correct. : Below (Vnizu), at the eighth ((entrance)), I removed ((my coat)), went up, knocked at ((the door to)) this room, and there sat several people: three or four, all in civilian clothes. They said, "Wait." i Alright (khorosho), I wait. A. Let us begin from when you came in the entrance. You said that you removed ((your coat)). ore ene om teeta tes Rem tese Where did you remove ((your coat)): B, Here, downstairs (Zdes' zhe vnizu), at the eighth ((entrance)), a Ral Sea tea! What -—- ((is)) there enough space ((‘place"™ - mesta)) for the wanes mentite nes nsitene serrpnne nme removal of outerwear (("undressing" - razdevaniye)). 1: 1 RT INN NN! RENAN rN a ee e a 1% B. Yor see, it is this way (Videte~li v chem delo): there -they remove i way” lat Naan SET ERAS MEA 0 ESR —
104-10210-10033 eaimahamainanes SAREE EAR 6 AY ca LRT OR TE COLLECTOR RENbE Claes eettin ee Rie ere im on ote ns senna Sameera nA tL en RA) co te be i ao i ((their coats)) downstairs -= on the first and second floors. ((There arc)) two places == two cloak-roons. And when you fo to eat at the dietetic restaurant (dietstolovaya), . you wear your coat to the second floor, where you remove ((it)). If you go up ((atove the second floor)) -- well, on business -—= then you remove ((your coat)) here, below. ra I removed ((my coat)) below, on the first floor, as I entered, What ((was)) there, cloa-room attendants, man and woman (garderob= shehik byl i garderobshchitsa). Yes, there was a woman, a cloak-room attendant. You went up. Then (Dal'she)* i went up to the floor indicated in the pass, found this roon, knocked, opened ((the door to)) the room; there, I, well -- as far as I remember, three or four officers were sitting there. - To whom did you speak (obratilis: )? I don ‘t remember. I said: "Here is the pass; my name is ((B's surnane)); I was told to come here." But one of them said: “Wait; I will call you." How do you think == I would not have wanted to remind ((you)) again that a person who has worked so many years must know exactly -- is the name of the person who is visiting (('going" - idet)}) and whom “ghown. on the pass or not. But I am explaining to you. You could not.... oe te sheet net! et
104-10210-10033 (rn ene een ee ene i ‘B. ((Interrupts)) But I will explain to you. ie I will tell you -= why. . oo, j Because I do not renenber, I do not renenber. But usually it is shown who orders tne pass. “fin, exdtimey case officer or a senior case officer cannot order a pass; that is, he can write out the pass, but someone anonz his superiors (iz rukovodstva) signs ((it)). Now, you nave issued it, but still you must confirm if the deputy . } chief of Department (otdel), the chief of Department, signs it by | hand (v pis mennom vide) -~ that is how it is (vot tak). { Now, orally (v ustnom vide), the officer, now, here now.... A, We will come back to this: the pass procedure (k poryakok propuskov), etc.; we will talk nore of this. B. That is why I am here (Dak i ya). You ask me; I explain to you, A, I am talking to you about this case... I cannot believe that a person has worked for so nany years and does not know exactly whether the name of the employee whom he was visiting (x kotoroni on idet) was shown on the pass or not. He goes up to the sixth floor and says: "Who needs ((B's surname: ))™ B. No, not to the sixth floor, but to room six hundred... such-and-such and there some room six hundred (XG)... I ((am)) ((B's surname)) and...- I have appeared (yavilsya), I do not know to whom to speak (obratit'sya AE ae at te neers meen eee who was sitting there, I do not know who, to whom must I turn . ; 4 (obratit'sya). To my thinking, to my thinking, to my thinking, a name was shown there in the pass... I do not remember; let us suppose ((that the ? . name)) there ((was)) PUSTYSSKIN, PODUSHKIN. 7 rf ; | I could have opened ((the door to)) the room and said: "My name is } 5 ! : | ((B's surname)); who here is Comrade PODUSHKIN or PUSTYSHKIN? © i He ((would have)) said: "I ((am he)); you wait for me; I will call 4 oo . _ i you." i” i eli. & :
104-10210-10033. eee ((And that would have been)) all. A, An employee who had worked 10 years in the orsans of the KGB == he innediately can say that a name is shown there or is not shown. He will not hesitate, think up ((something)), and say: to ny thinking, it was, or it was not; because the regulations (pravila).... ee ae neal B. (Interrupts; XG -= A and B speak at Fie come time)) ... I know what is shorn and not shoiwm and I myself made out passes and I myself signed ((then)), as... deputy chief of department, and now one can simply order ((passes)) by telephone, well, fraa the chief -fa section (otdeleniye). | | _An ordinary employee orders ((the pass)), but a chief of section and higher confirms ((the order)), and it is both with a name and without a nane. A. You have arrived at the Pass Bureau (Byuro propuskov); you will submit (otdayete) your document. What did you say to then. B. I said that there is a pass here for me; it must be a pass to i Building 12. ((That is)) all. I gave my officer's identification ((Yofficer's bocklet" = ofitser- . i skaya knizhka)). : A. What else did he ask you in the Pass Office. B. I don't remenber . I do not remember what he asked. ; - I do not remember what (kak) I said, ((or)) what he asked. os dee ee You see, as they say, these are such.small things on the face of it;. when a person has worked so many years and can not say exactly, but te corte et hace niet oenninneetres tag meme how it is in fact (kak na samom dele byvayet), of course, comes 6 NOAA ADT! ONIN ARR RT 1st Le AOR tt ROR acme ae OP at BE . — under question (stavit pod vopros). a | ' CEocer = fend soon | 2 ata aen ote
www B. I aa telling exactly how it is. but how, what I said, what was said, this, of course -—- if this is the tasis for the decision of the question about me, then excuse it.... AL wae eee A. This is not the basis for a decision, but.... F i B. ((Interrupts)) Well, so you base ((a decision)) on such things as this, you understapJd me.... J ; : A. ... But one of the hooks (zatsepka) which.... B. Precisely so, a hook.... A. ... Brings us to a stop and again forces us to speak.... B. ... You yourself can wholly ((understand)) that a person cannot renember what (kak) he said while talking at the little window (obrashchayas’ v okoshko) of the Pass Bureau ((and)) what he was , asked. ' ((XG ~~ A and B speak at the same time)) A. ... Anything, however small, is essential (sushchestvennaya). B. We, intelligence officers and counterintelligence officers, we daily pass cy thousands of small points (melochi) which we do not notice. I, or I notice, on which our memory fixes, it leaves no traces (ne ostavlyayet sled). We remember what it was. If we will see ((it again)) =- ((we say)) “yes, I saw this", if I had noticed this, but it does not leave a deep -inpression (("trace" - Wiech awe sled)). + «are epee See apne ee ate mny t A. We will come back ((to this)). You are.in six hundred... the room, whatever ((number)). What more (dal'she) took place: 7 oe eran ~ = oe < Bates er tet teens cadena ts ES pete a An ONL re AORN SRI ACORN BOLE Om Ste eeR ee Smee Meme d nee: ante NAH
B. Only that which I remember; only that which I renenber, and t $ you judge, please, as you wish, we atl ok A. Please. es ydolainnss B. JL remenber, then, he talked with me -- this, this Personnel man (kadrovix), whether a case officer or 4a senior case officer; what kind of questions he posed, I absolutely do not renember, and even.... There was a talk, doubtless about where I had served, well... about nyself, who are you, what, where did you graduate, what institute, what kind of education, language, where have you worked since graduation from the institute, there and there, ((your)) last place, there and there -~ I told everything. Questions concerning the biography. A. So. You had a cenversation, etc.; what then’ B. And he gave me, then, he said to ne, yes, he gave me several pages j ‘ ((Not with certainty)), then there is one, suca a sheet ((peze)), one word on it: autobiography; it says, for the autobiography, in | two copies, and he gave me a questionnaire (anketa), also two copies, there were some four or six pages, the deuce knows how many . It ((was)) necessary to fill out the questionnaires, all of this, and submit ((it)) to them. yoy Stans To my thinking, yes,..I filled ((then)) out at home, yes, at home I filled ((them)) out. The questionnaire, the autobiography , and I attached sualt photos of myself. A. They gave you two copies of the questionnaire. B. Of the questionnaire and two of the autobiorraphy. One and the other in two copies. derajas qareed mnhts anise DARD RIRSOO ADD An CEDURE eere rename amon mieattn Heseventan re yemndan wersemenrtomatinars / araumatmarmintreststineaperit: Soot = wae went MB ee & . z Pano sete. ehigned teen.
104-10210-10033 &. What was on this page which was intended for the autubiorvraphy. i a B. Only one word: "Autobiography". A. What is outstanding about the questionnaire: Exar B. The questionnaire (anketa) ((is)) a routine questionnaire (voprosnix). Well, the first question, well, surname, given name, patr«mymic, place of birth, where born, well... routine... tut... the expanded questionnaire (rasshirennaya anketa), that is, I have in mind... you understand, I filled out the qwesticnmlecs, and later, when working I filled out a questionnaire again; it was an abbreviated (sokrashchennaya) cuestionnaire, not so large -- (.six.) pages, less. A questionnaire. A. YWhat size was this: How many pages were there? B. Four or six pages. i i A, Four or six pages. What was this questionnaire called: B. Questionnaire (anketa). ((Taat is)) all, nothing more. A. After the talk, after the conversation in the Personnel Department, except for the autobiography and questionnaire, what else did they ask you to do or to submit (predstavit'), or what further step had _ to be taken? i | . B. I, then... when I had filled out the questionnaire and the autobio- . | 5 graphy.... . : ii A, Where did you fill owt the questionnaire and the biography: Fa] Bateuaste meee: Eee emer eS eee ae akin maa NAN eet Reet
104-10210-10033 aaa eam incall dina AF AOD eed ed rs EARL i0 MA EELS EERE ENED AO OPE SOD ade EE tem eters mime im mi yiametn tent A NN AY B. At home, it seems, at hone. At hone. ‘Can you say nore exactly. No, I cannot say more exactly. You cannot say more exactly where you filled out the questionnaire. I received the questionnaire there, to my thinking, I filled it out at hor2; yes, at home. And they gave me on the following day, they gave me a pass, I went up and turned ((the questionnaire, etc.)) in (otdel). Or, no, I did not drop in ((at the room itself)), but this ((person)) gave me a telephone ((number)), I phoned, he came down and took my autobiography and questionnaire... it means, I called on the telephone, this employee came down and took ((the questionnaire, etc.)). ((Pauses)} Yes, I filled out the autobiography and questionnaire at home, I filled ((them)) out at home, because I did not have photos with me and I submitted the photo at the same time on the following, on . the following, approximately, day, I phoned... went to, went to the eighth entrance, waited, this employee came down, I gave him ((the questionnaire, etc.)). He said: "Well, alright, we will phone you.” Then, you submitted (predstavili) an autobiography.... Two copies.... . ; . i Two copies.... Two'copies of the questionnaire.... Two copies of the questionnaire.... Photos. q Raraantar 3a F; i He ee de
104-10210-10033  *ro mw mireinnntisi | 4 A, What kind of photos’. B. Small photos, I did not have any others. They wanted to receive 9 x 12, a large and small ((ones)), as usual, Deen tan Red you know, it ((was)) 4 x 9 or 4 = 6 or 3 x 4; to my thinking, (Cit was)) 3 cm. by 4. And they asked me for one 9 x 12; I said that I have none, this is large. A. But then later you subuitted a 9 x 12 to them. 4 ¢ B,- No, no, no. Later I submitted ((one)), when I aiready was working, it was in approxinately 1955, 1956, that they asked me. I submitted a 9 x 12 about two times. A, Then (Dal'she)* = You filled out the questionnaire, submitted ((it)), a person came down, took these questionnaires, what then’ i B. There was nothing more. Further J was told that there will be a phone call for me, they will phone me again, I will go. A. When was this phone call. This all was sometime in January: B. It was in January, yes. A. In January? In Fancery, yes, 7 SO gE. , now, A. When did the phone call come (("follow" —- posledoval)) ee 7 : B. I do not remember. _ = ] 6 a I do not remember. Sha 0 F860 ag Lh TEEN SRL ALATA RC Nat bene nnn AN et OUR re OR eS ah een anette at fn a Samet © eo
104-10210-10033 Se AER RE ALT RG AMIE CSN ERE tn ee De amor Heme Ae ta Hy YEP as SE COt A 4 nt met eeNN EAN te B. ‘employee about 30 minutes, then I was” with ROZHENAO for the third teieantetenene Et ARAN EAN ESE RE A CP TEL TENE RICO NOTIN IPE nora Again I talked with this ((person)) briefly; I was with this . tine. Tne third time with ROZHENKXO, With this, everything was completed, and I received a phone call, ! the last phone call I received from them... in March, after STALIN i 4 “3 4 was buried. After STALIN's burial they asked me to come, not to Building 12, but to Building 2. The pass was ordered for the fourth entrance straight out, for the principle, central entrance. But when, then, from January to March, what were you doing in Moscow: Nothing. I was, I was, this period of time, you understand, all January =- I still ((had)) leave, February and this part of March before working, this ((was)), so, at the disposal of Personnel; that is, until the moment, until the appearance -of the order that. I was enrolled to work in the GB, I was, this period of time, period of time, but I do not know, from the middle of January, from what time, I was at the disposal of Navy (VMF) Personnel, of the Ministry of the Navy, but how it was here, no one explained to me. I know only one ((thing)) = that Personnel of GRU, GRU of the Ministry of the Navy, knew that it will be handled (provoditsya) ‘that... the problen of my enrollment in the MGB is resolved; they knew that this question is decided and therefore put me at the disposal of Personnel; that is, this so useless (boltayushcheyesya) position which is before the moment of assignment (naznacheniye). It can be two and chree months or a month or a half-month or. four nonths.. How did the Personnel Department of Navy GRU find out that you were processing ((‘are processing" - oformlyayetes')) for work in the NGB: KALOSHIN, whom I told, first heard ((it)) from me. Get meen s. — EM a
- a= 104-10210-10033 restr steer eerstcttesmneesonimmientnmes mena secmmnmesn i Ay: When was this. By B. In January. I told ((him)) in January. Maybe on the 10th, maybe on the 8th; I do not remember when I was q a there first. I tola them that I was processing... the question of my, of my enrollment, of taking me to work in the “inistry for State Security is decided. Because that work to which you sent me last time in Sovetsk, at the Fourth... at the MRP of the Fourth Naval Fleet, does not suit me at all, because this work (eto rabota) (1G). A, And what did you do for KALOSHIN at that time, when you stated thet.... i B. I did not do anything. I said that, in all probability, as far as I understood, they will ; put you in the know officially somehow. This they themselves already ((had done)). we Re ante eee ee And, really, no one had told me, and, really, they already had put =~ I have in mind the MG8 Personnel (kadry HGB) == they officially had put the GRU Personnel of the Ministry of the Navy in the know, but they quickly asked about this, "give ((us)) the personal file (lichnoye delo)", that no one had explained to ((or)) showed ((or)) told me, but GRU Personnel (kadry GRU), KALOSHIN, knew officially, KALOSHIN already knew, not from me, but GRU Personnel knew officially that the question about me is resolved in MGB Personnel (v kadrakh | MGB), and they put me officially at the disp((osal))..., I Secaws,, a then, not as an officer of the MRP of the Fourth Naval Fleet in 7 aa / Baltiysk, in Sovetsk, but ((an officer)) at the disposal of: Personnel (v rasporyazheniyem kadrov), at the disposal of Personnel. A. But you remember that... I again return to the old problem that obscurities arise, of course more, not from ((our)) understanding Bones: each other, but you said earlier what you are saying now, it is > Oana Rand, IER, QS A RE VA EPO NO CR RNIN SOAR RATE AP See A Yes belt Ne AE PARA ete eee tne eee “Fn ae 79 ase the,
1 04-1 02 1 0 -1 0 033 sates ekicomee amnesic mS 2 af ect. sea BE REN —— i true that earlier «= one or two times -- you said that you had filled out the questionnaire (anketa) at ROZHENXO's, etc., but there was a time (moment) when you said that they: told you in the Personnel Department (otdel> of the MGB that "ht ((is)) not necessary 4 to fill out any kind of questionnaire (anketa), we have requested your personal file (lichnoye delo)." B. And whully understandably; it may be that I ((did)) precisely ((that)) the second time, because -~ I am sitting and thinking, but why ((did)) I ((do so)) the second tine =~ perhaps they gave me a questionnaire the second time.... I do not remember, do not remember. A, Understand me; Counterintelligence (Kontrrazvedka) does not work that way. When 2 person has worked in Counterintelligence and tries ‘o explain and state that white is black and black, white, of course it is difficult for the people who have been talking with you -- including i me == to believe that you are telling how in fact it was. When a person once has said that "it ((is)) not necessary to fill out anything, we have requested your personal file",.and that. is all (i konets); now, in order to find an answer, you are trying somehow ; to explain: "Maybe it was so the first time, but perhaps, the second time." I want to know the truth, in order that it be clear and definite -- that you went to ROZHENKO, that you filled out a questionnaire, what you did, etc., or it was that they requested your file from the’ GRU and you did absolutely nothing there. Because you told ((it)) one time thus, and then two times in another . way. ; The truth: must be somewhere. because. it. cannot..be this way. B. I am telling you the truth as it is; I was ((there>), I talked in cos 4 Personnel two or three times, I filled out a questionnaire, I filled out a questionnaire; when did I fill out the questionnaires , God knows.’ lay or Do ats aad FT , = Le AE PWG gear TR AR 7 Le won At et A LE LAG NRGAE CAPS FNRI OS Halt IEE FLEET Tare BN LOMO EIS tendite the wet te 1
104-10210-10033 “™—"""" USOT URAL iy Gar oa hee tein On eee ae MIL venti oot a Roe reren denen eee kee since erence, o eenveme weenie 2 aOR fe eee Whether they gave it to me right eway or gave it.to me later, or perhaps they gave it to me when I already had gone to work, a Personnel man (kadrovik) sitting in the Second Chief Directorate (vo Vtoroy Glavke) -—- ((chief «-)) SAKHAROV, Kikolay Grigor'yevich -= gave it to me -— I do not remember, I do not resember, I do not renember, Absolutely. I know I filled out tvo autobiographies, two questionnaires, submitted photos. A, But why (("for what" - k chemu)) fill out two autobiographies and two questionnaires: B. Uh, two copies. B. I do not know. 4A. Here, of course, in this event.... B. ((Interrunvts)) Well, then, where; it is in the personal file (lichnoye delo); look: here is a personal file sn him, on him, on him, but what is there; a personal file, but there is also an insert (vlozheniye) in the personal file, the special check (spetsproverka) file, which also is kept (Kkhranit'sya) here in the personal file, but it ((can be)) taken out. It is, there is such a folder (korochka), the special check file is sewn into the folder. Probably here (Navernoye syuda). A. To you, of course, every mortal man knows that there is a special check file in the personal file, because.‘without.a special check. they do not take you into the MG3, but it also is true that even when ncw employees are taken on (dazhe pri postuplenii vnov ' prinimayemykh)- they do not fill out two copies of the questionnaire. +" Fe eee, hate TRALEE ee alate,
104-10210-10033 treetsterrscencentnattininapsecselseeanetosini nanan omie neta te hen B. ...And later I filled out two nore copies. = “ 5 i : A. It may be that you could have filled out one copy later, one more after a year, perhaps another after five years, and so forth, but the Personnel Department needs only one good copy and absolutely nothing more is needed. B. Two copies. J married, my wife, they gave two copies again for completion on my wife (dlya zapolneniya zheny). A f A. We will be talking about this when we cone to this marriage, and we will return to this questionnaire. I want you to understand what I am saying. Toe next question -- of which I had not wanted 0 remind you «=< ((concerns the fact)) that the questionnaire both for new employees (vnov' prinimayemyye) and for XGB employees (sotrudniki FGB) is not given to ((be taken)) home. | : The biography, yes; you can write as much as you wish, even ten. The questionnaire is not given <= and not because of distrust of a Communist or of an enployec «-- but only because it may be lost. This is the only reason. B, It may be. It all may be. But I took ((it)) home, and not ((just)) one time -- ((my)> wife: $e nb also filled ((it)) out at home, oe | A. YWhen you had begun work, later, this also must not be, but the weet ae Mae te Uli sey ged # possibility is not excluded, that ((then)) you took ((it home)) -- I de not object to this so much; but when you had come for the first baethned Lig time only and that they would have given ((it)) to you ((to take)) bome -- this question is completely ruled out. ‘ ele RE yetlaeT Atta eee me 8 anes fe tn = ot eHealth Here is what I want to understand -- you have told me that you took: ((it)). or you did not take (Cit))+ Bim da Fb trp set des tp ll tet ele Pee a Bi HAT ae aul ,
104-10210-10033 shesctogatartn: enemencietren visemes eet sea tn eer ees tertoivonme ai iarsiets wr eS i Si Oa acme ing Nin ey earned SOA MLIEinir “san ei aoe 2 nN AUR 6 860m harman SRA em teint Ett Pete fea Be 49 I do not remember, I do not remenber. Maybe I took (({it)). It is necessary then to say: I do not remember, and I do not know. But I know that I filled out a questionnaire... and wrote an auto- biography... to my thinking, I wrote this at heme, because I had, I could not give the photos. ‘ _ I want to remind ((you of)) one ((thing)): that if we will talk in this way we will go slowly, we will go very slowly. I cannot help you -=- forgive me, please, forgive me ~- I cannot help you, because I answer thus as I know, what I know, but you want.... ..- I do not at all need anyone's help.... I understand. You know your business. I need only the truth. The fact was and is that the questionnaire is not given ((to be taken)) home. You told me that you took it hone. I can in no way understand this. I simply want to hear only one ((thing)) from you -= that you tell . ‘ me that "I filled ((it)) out" either here or not here; if “I took ((it)) home" -—- ((then you)) took (Cit) hone; but they do not give ((it to be taken)) home; then you wrote it somewhere else: 3 In that or another event, I filled it out immediately, or, after I was accepted, I filled it out at home. In that or another event. Only at home; the first questionnaire which was completed by me for the NGB ((wife filled out)) only at home. ee i
104-10210-10033 | i i A. I do noc want to do it so that you, yeu understand, knowing exactly, ' Soin tala cated aati | { think, not knowing where you filled ((it)) out, you insist now, as far as they try to obtain from me, where was this: «= at home. <= and I say that ((it was)) at home. If we will work this way, we will not find a common language very soon. I only want one ((thing)) -=- that you answer just as it was. If you do not know.... wae B. ((Interrupts)) I answer as I remember; the questionnaire was completed at home, Whether it was filled out immediately or later, I do not remember this, but I filied it out at home. A. ... It could not have been completed at home. B. Well, it ((matters)) little that it could not. But I filled it out at home. A. This answer will satisfy no one. ! ' B. I cannot sit and lie to you, no, only for the sake of satisfying you. A. I certainly do not want you to lie to me... B, (XG)... I believe that you want only the truth.. I am answering you that, yes, I completed the questionnaire, I do not know wher, ((either)) immediately ((when)) they gave ((it to me)) or later, but only at home, at home. ‘ ; . } A. My only reply to this can be only one.... _— 7 LCRA PAae Oe ac La NCR PEN Sah een Mes AL HI MRR AN Heer adi ee eee . i ” be woe x B. ((Interrupts)) And later I completed ((one)), also at home, at home... a At home, in that year when you nine you could not have filled (it)) out. Aa eee > e araniepnreNeerotes & see By " Cute ee te SY UNDA: Heri
104-10210-10033 > retrninesaetrel deh lag NC Lt teantmtangimsere, oT That, afterward ((you completed a questionnaire)), as you said, when you narried, and.so forth «- it goes without saying that this is 3 possible. ; It goes without saying. It was later, when.... I even allow for (dopuskayu) an exception to the regulations or -- if the discussion is of such a case (esli.rech idet) -= if a pexssen is working, then sometimes such a thing ((happens)), or tne possibility - ¢ ((that)) it is given to employees whom they trust. Understand; you were warking ({there)); now you put the dots over the "i's with such a funny question. It is not a funny question. It is a funny question. Funny. -- Kell, what; you know the regulation (polozheniye) that an employee, an operational worker (operativnyy rabotnik), let us say, must not in any event take home a single document. You know in real life they take ((them))* They take ((them)>). I have finished work; I ((have)) two meets (yavka) in the evening; I met the agent, but I have finished the last meet at 10 o'clock in the evening, at 9 o'clock in the evening; I am ((too)) lazy to go such a distance to put in the report (polozhit' doneseniye); I go : . . home and ((keep the report)) in my pocket; right. ((%G = A and B speak at the same time)) ee terre cere eee There must be some kind of foundations for this, true: , t oO 4 But you have not given them to me. - | You say: "I really (tochno) completed ((it)) at home." Blomus bee oa
104-10210-10033 pede sy. IHGA AA, CATT. 32021 004 5 ty ea Yen Sd TA eh AAAI AARC OL LEIA A EOE Me ana Hee tS HSS Stee ereemalite nes a cB. A. At home, at hone, at hone. It does not happen so (("It is not so" = Ne byvayet tak)). Imagine «=< in no way ((docs it happen so)). There must be some kind of foundations for your having filled it out at home. Well, what kind of foundation. Well, what kind of foundation can ((there)) be. I do not know. I want to understand, but I do not find ((any foundation))., I would say to you even more.... Look here; if we continue further on this question I am afraid that I myself will become confused; you will see ((this)) and say: "Listen, ((B's surname)), what are you saying. Now yeu told me one ((thing)); now you are telling me another, but earlier, you told my colleagues -- a third." | You understand (vy poymite) that I will become confused. As soon as I came here today, I said that my task, together with you.... To untangle.... ...-TO straighten out everything. Right. But, you see, you... me. You. say “untangle”, and at the same time you. ask me-such details which I do not remember: "So, tell ((me)), and how was this:"- But I do not remember.... When I first asked you about the questionnaire and so on, you said, "I dc not remember", but then you said: "At home." SECRET eo creciiemtTaaaIS  gggeie: emesis ar se - ea eee bee ohn ene bee ORIEL wid RUBBLE
= ww ™ . .: ce ele gt. b 104-10210-10033 " ‘ I waited a little and then I decided simply to say that it does not ; 2 = 4 happen so (ne byvayet tak). : You could have answered me: "Perhaps at hone, perhaps in the office," etc., but you are trying to state that ((it was)) definitely at home. Then I, knowing that this is not done at home, you must rive me some Kind of foundation ((for)) why, why this was so. B. Why at home. I can give the grounds -- because I even do not renember, mother, “this about relatives, and my mother, she was studying in the courses, “in the courses, in the period when she met father, in the courses, but for the life of me; and then I do not remember what years she was studying, where, what. ! As concerns father, I know where he worked, there in Leningrad, the i street, the plant, such and such years, but I do not remember the ; details about mother; therefore, I, I remember well that I filled : out the questionnaire at home. : I asked mother, "But how ((shall I)) put ((about)) you here.", A. I agree with this completely. More, I can tell. you -= if you do not know or, perhaps, do not wish to say; there is no secret about this, the whole world knows about it -- for the person who ‘fills out a questdonnaize for the first time for the KGB, it is rather difficult: there is quite a number of questions about both mother and father, etc., ((the answers to)) which the son perhaps does not know at all.... , » , B. And absolutely does not know. And therezore I say.... , ; ; This is done in the majority of ((such)) cases -- the person sits, reads the questionnaire, ((sees)) approximately. what kind of questions ((there are)), and then collects the information from his father, mother, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, | or (C(about)) wno((ever)) . else there was or was not, and then he comes the next ‘Hite and re ca ee ated SOLA GEERT i eri aes thy eee et are eae oarenter daemon necetaReertiesne ee Cr ee e
1 0 4 -1 0 2 1 0 -1 0 0 3 3 Cagy naar e mnR A meters sh R 2; ach Rome fae ee ae ee eR RASEMER NORA ETE Set SRT Ea ‘s finishes ((the questionnairc)), and so forth. 3 % 4 i 2 ' B. And finishes ((it)):; I understand this. oe Te ab he I filled ((it)) our at home, filled ((it)) out at home, A. What then...: B. (Cinterrupts)) One minute; I do not renember, but I do not remember exactly whether this Personnel man (kadrovik) gave me the questionnaire to fill out. ((But)) then what did I hand over to hin. I renember I went over, rang him up, I gave him some documents. And at that time, you understand, I have recalled another detail, when I already had begun work in March, on the first day I came SHUBNYAKOV talked with me; SHUBNYAKOV rang up GORBATENKO; GORBATENKO —= -acting chief of the department (otdel) ~= took nme to his office, and 4 that day or the next the Personnel man (kadrovik) who previously was in the Second Chief Directorate (vo Vtorom Glavke) -- the one, the. Personnel man, who previously had been assigned (chislilsya) as an officer of the Second Directorate (Vtoroye Upravicniye) -- phoned ne, He called me ((to come)) to his office ((‘'to himself" -k sebe)), here on the sixth floor in Building 2, the corridor, and gave me the questionnaires and ((Without certainty)) the biographies to fill ‘ out. It may be that I am confused here; maybe I did not fill out anything for Personnel there, but what I filled out -- what I am remembering -- is that which I received fron SAKHAROV, . : i Well, I cannot say. I am afraid of tangling myself up, etc. A. Of course, it is possible to believe what you have said -= that it ; happened the second time, etc. -= but, you see, I do not want to make any assumptions; you are a smart enough fellow and, having ss thought for some time and with some leading questions, I think ((you are)) of a condition to give a more or less satisfactory answer. Besar + LEIS, cat ll SAREE Tied I AUTRES ACH MTN OR TOIT RAL ETS NEN ERO IENG ALERA eRMIBET Do OE dt nent ret teat ven mieee ae
104-10210-10033 “=“““""" 1 AEP LB Nig ETRE alll Ag ARITA T SOLE AAR ADAIR SEELEY INR LER ISOMER ee RL AN RRR # ELIE EA HI MISONO EF bE yar aR ett B. No, no. I would wish that you would avoid such cases; then we will find a conmon lanvuage far more simply. Then it will be better if I say straight out that I do not remember this, I do not rememker. If I will say that I suppose that it must be so, ((then)) it must be so, because I do not remember in detail ((the answer to)) this question. We are talking about the questjounaire. Of course, each KGB employee who has written it several times cannot, of course, say that he does not remember. You understand that a person who has filled it out several times cannot say that "I do not remember". I do not remember how many times I filled it out. ((XG = A and B speak at the same time.)) ...I am speaking in general about the questionnaire and what the questionnaire of an employee.... ... am saying that I filled ((it)) out several times over ny period of work (na protyazhenii raboty). ; : Boe Ne aha I filled ((it)}) out several times. One more question... a question of the questionnaire; you say, then, that only "Questionnaire (Anketa)", and nothing more, is written on the questionnaire; please.... No.... Each question (1G). . oi What is the questionnaire itself cailed. Here ((is)) a questionnaire; this word, "Questionnaire (Anketa)" ((is)) Ae sicaets ss 4 qa i 5 ¢ i % en ee an
104-10210-10033 “r= 2 > 3 there; that is not all; there is something else. B. The questionnaire. Well, there at the top ((therc)) is, at the top, the word, sone kind of form, the deuce knows, Form (forma)... 2 a, 21 or 2 b, but I do not remember. A. O.K. ((in Englis’)) I am not even thinking about trying to remember what kind of forn, ¢ although I know this, etc. No one is asking you whether this was form 27 or 26, 2b or 2d, or whatever; no one pays attention to this. B. It is (Eto idet) as if ruled (graflenaya), well, as if ruled, the question.... A. Understand me. A KG3 employee who has completed the questionnaire several times. will know the name (nazvaniye) of this questionnaire. tiie tee B. "Questionnaire (Anketa) , and (({that is)) all. ‘ A. No. { I have no intention of telling you. : B. ((it is)) not necessary to tell. ; 4 * a. : ‘ : A. I think the day will come ((when)) I simply will show you. : . i B. ((it is)) not necessary. a i i A. I will show ((you)). . — 4 z B. I know that I filled ((it)) out more than once (ne raz): "Questionnair | i | (Anketa)", ((and that is)) all. z so. . ; 2° i
104-10210-10033 — sreresteeseirntsr seaetemecmrmittnen=re yee eminecii ani onc Sr RRR A a et vopeda! ISLET Re EERE SRI Ss ON eae een NE Nt EN ORL ol ete NRE EE em Se Bs Mt, _. It certainly is not all (Vot imenno chto ne vic), I want to understand: what’ is the’main point of this ((' where is the doy buried." —. gde zhe sobaka zaryta)). I do not know what it is (gde ona zaryta). If you filled ((it)) out several tines, if you worxed there ll years, then you will tell exactly what this questionnaire is cailed, because this.... (Cinterrupts)) You (XG) because of one forn. The form is ({number)) 21 or, let us assume, ((it is)) the fifteenth, Ond a number (kolichestvo) of questions depend upon this. We understand what we are talking about and of which questionnaire (anketa) we are speaking. Do we understand each other: It is the comprehensive (Cor "expanded" - rasshirennaya)), it is the comprehensive questionnaire, and ((that is)) all. Fell ((in English)). And therefore, of course, when you were talking with the other people, I want to believe everything you are talking about, but when you stop in the middle of a sentence, ((then)) it raises a question with ue of whether you do not want to tell me ((something)), when the whole world already knows this questionnaire, from the first question to the last, and how many pages are in it; but when I am talking with a former employee, one who was the same as I and worked ((there)) 11 years, and he cannot tell me its name (nazvaniye eye), this must, of course, raise some kind of question with me. I do not know what it raises with you. (Cit is called)) "Questionnaire (Anketa)". ((That is)) all. ; ‘ ans
104-10210-10033  “™"™ rs BoE RE og SLU CeO ALTER CRE Ie Lill RE lel atnem enter alimerrnAns aereteatteiwee ousne ii, i, A, B, het ta fgpsume that there were two (. questionnaires. ), but not tuttlete Cpolnyye), and <= a8 they say -— not ((wholly)) satistyinz, ‘id If has not cleared up our question of.... Bocetine me, I cannot help you.... UY Mestion of what business you had (0 tom, kak Vy imeli delo) wht these questionnaires, when you started ((work)) or even after you htaad been working: ! Filled out the questionnaire in two copies, I filled out the ‘Miegraphy, ((that is)) I did not fill ((it)) out, but wrote the hlovrapny in two copies. Aftor you talked with ROZHENKO -- in Building 12, you said == how: much time passed before ycu found yourself in Building 2 for the first timer in Maroh, Whon, approxinately; do you remember. ((Long pause)) (: Ahy) The middle of March. (XG = B speaks in low, "unreadable" voice)) nr: ee RR eon) We will return to ((talk about)) the middle of March. 1 would like to talk with you -- inasmuch as I was at STALIN's funeral and, if one may say so, tovk an active part at that time -— I would like to know where you were, well, for example, several days before STALIN's death. And after STALIN's death ws announced and at the time of (vo vremya) the funeral: This ie such a moment which.... Well, at the time of (vo vremya) the funeral I was in Moscow. eRe SW Ae phd ee ree ee WR yE Sranns
hep estrnas eerteamn nae leila econ seerragcene BO. ee noe aut pripmipietyitie pap carci ctRART ENN RINGS! ta Seip a ee othe 104-10210-10033 . — TS wt gi i A, Well, let us begin before the beginning (pred nachalon), when you say that your father was a Minister and, of course, vas in the , : Kremlin many tines, etc.,- and prozably was at conferences (soveshchani-~ ye) of the Politbyure. STALIN's death, as they say, ((was)) a very great moment in the life | z of the whole Russian or Soviet people. | They remember all of this well, now it happened, etc. Let us take a starting poiut before the death and at the time of ‘ . the death ((of STALIN)). | When did you first hear that STAL™N ((was)) ill or that he ((was)) dead. B. No, ((In an agitated voice)) It was announced that he ((was)) seriously ill, that, it was announced even in the press and by radio that he ((was)) ill.... A. ... Had you heard before this; for example, had you heard fron i your father or from someone in higher circles that he ((was)) ill or something in this regard: i ; B. You understand how it ((was)) (Vy ponimayete v chem delo), literally several hours, then they announced ((it)) immediately. It happened at night. It happened at night with him, as far as I remember the details, I heard ((of it)) from father, well, then from father's circle (okruzheniye) there and.... A. I am asking only that question; we will not talk ((of)) then ((when)), of course, there were many conversations afterward: of when he becane ill, of en his stroke (udar) seized hin, and so forth. | This was after everything already had become known; I an speaking . . poo now of before STALIN's illness; let us take ((for example)) the end : { _ of February or the beginning of March. What did-you as a member of the fanily of a highly-placed person, etc., wnat did you hear of the death of STALIN from someone -- from
104-10210-10033 your father or nother or fron soneone ‘else anonz your acquaintances ~— that, sonething ((was)) not wholly in order (ne sovsen v poryadke), with STALIN, in this line- L 7 B. Well, could we not nave heard ((of this)) fron anyone. It happened with hin at night. _In the morning it already had been announced by radio that he had a stroke (udar). A. Then I must make the conclusion that, before it was announced by radio or in the newspapers, you had not heard from anyone of his illness. B. No. No, but I heard of his illness of some kind (o yego kakoy polezni), i _ of this illness -- no. , | I had heard that he ((had been)) rather (kakoy-to) strange of late, ((that)) he did not receive anyone; I had heard this. A. Alright. Let us come back to this: he was rather stranze, he did not receive anyone. Approximately when did this happen- B. It last was ((in)) 1952 and 1953. A. Let us return again to one moment: the XIX Party Congress was in October 1952, the last during his ‘lifetime and.... ~ B. Yes, yes. ...And the first after the war.... eee RR RRR iARirTS Sle OA RIE ED Re op serene eR eS = B. Since 1938, after a long interval (bol'shoy pereryv). SB thas sh SAENGER A eAR.2aY te Mer tammAe ES ctmlenne 0 Tae A. And STALIN attended this Congress....
104-10210-10033 etatewe err pmgementrreseemnt ete. etinmunnnmnramaamarnait tte Aneel as tenes tee ye ete : Fhe ete FA daca Gate o es estien-euanreme semanas co aa - 61 =| He made a speech, not big, brief. .. He gave a small brief speech, etc. You yourself personally had heard something before this, that he had some xind of strangeness, ete, | | This is my own (Eto u menya) ((interest)) <-- I am not examining you.... No, no. You see how it was, from where I had heard. Well, I had heard such things from father, from father and from father's group (okruzheniye otsa) -- MALYSHEV, VANNIKOV, KHRUNICTIEV, - OKOPOY -~ "Of late, ‘The Boss (Xhozyain)’ is not receiving anyone; he is a little strange, he has changed, he has changed extremely in recent years”. Well, here was in mird, I kave in mind 1952, 1953, because in 1950 - 1951 I was not ((there)), I de not know, 3 was gone (ya byl v ot"yezde), I arrived in 1952. (1G) I have heard of strangeness (strannosti) of such a type, that he was working (perenes rabotu) all night and in the morning, but during the day, generally, they rarely see him, and he dees not | permit (({anyone)) to approach him, ard it is rare that one sees him. At that, fron my pal -~ Leonid PETROV, that is -~- I heard a little, other details of ((STALIN's)) personal life, how he acts. But who is this PETROV? His father, PETROV ~~ Lieutenant Colonel PETROV == was vorking in STALIN's guard (okhrana STALINA), In the guard around STALIN (V okhrane u STALINA): Yes, And it was from him, from this Leonid I heard other details. But this ((was)), he, let us say (predpolozhim), he ((i.e., STALIN) ) spent time in such a way. eye ieee Sua, ea Peas seh see edd Cede
ad Cay “ 104-10210-10033 rr rer rnin creneermninert en a BI A. Where was Leonid himself workine. é months somewhere at one address (("at one postal box address" —< A. But, anyway, he did. sousthing ((did he not)): You know, in- the Soviet Union ((it is)) difficult ((just)) to sit ((and)) do nothing. B. He graduated from Juridical Institute (yunidicheskiy institut) when he was about 30. A. He was a permanent student. B. Yes... He worked for a short time in various organizations. to work. organizatsii)y B,. No. A ee Me A ta AOE are eam aero ie uber aecsttemes Why’ in 1924. Beet We ron ee Aa el He graduated a little later. Sse rte Eat a Seah ins Pat B, Leonid himself, then he was a student, in general he is working six implying, at a factory waich uses no publicly known address, but a numbered post -oeffice box address only)), then he works somewhere else; he has a lawyer's education (obrazovaniye yurista) (2G). He graduated fron the Institute when he was about 30 years old. ((He is)) a pal who absolutely does not like to work, does not want A, If he ((is)) a lawyer (yurist) in what kind of organizaticn (vakakoy Do you remember even one organization in which he was working.. Because in the early years (osnovnyye gody) when he began work, I graduated from the Institute in 1950, he graduated from the Institute a little later (popozzhe), he is older than I, I was born in 1927, he, He began work, as a matter of fact, when I began in the MGB. wt ee er neta ane Ped ee eee ae
104-10210-10033 ((The guard enters; everyone talks of cold tea and ice.)) A. How long did ais father work in the guard (okhrana), do you know. B. Until his death. He worked for many years. ; i He worked until his death. A. Where did they live, do you know: B. He Lived on Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)). A. On Third Neshchanskaya: B. Yes. The usual house, a communally-owned ((as compared with the Ministry- : ’ ‘ | i owned HOUSES j zhaktovskiy dom)) house. A, What number, do you not remember: B. I do net remember. A. You do not remember the nunber: _B. I remember it -- this house. A. And what was the father's names do you remember: B. Sergey, Sergey, because his Leonid ((is)} Leonid Sergeyevich; ; Sergey PETROV. ‘A. The father ((is)) Sergey, and the son, Leonid: : 3 B, Leonid Sergeich. A. What, approximately, did Leonid tell you of STALIN's last days or Peer ace 2 . ~ . . oo F vat
104-10210-10033 ™™" rete tern emit a ae an ene BF wn NA RE a A NEA itty ettetmn same nee, of the next to last ((days)). But that he there.... what he eats (kushayet), what he cats (yest) there, but such questions. He, you understand, was working there in the household (v khozyaystve) 3 or ((sonme)) where there -~ I do not know «- in the suard, he saw how and what... he told details of ((how)} “The Boss (khozyain)’ spends time in the hot-hnouse (oranzhereya), that he isstrange. Let us say, there in the hot-house at Blizhnyaya Dacha in the Voroh'yevyye Gory, there were several lcaon trees Fruit appeared on these lemon trees ({and)) he ((STALIN)) counted up how many. Well, on one there ((weve)) perhaps four, on another, six, I do not know how many, and one lemon (("fruit" - plod)) fell. It fell, yes. Do not tell ((me)) about this, this is an old joke (anekdot) which i has been around (sushchestvuyte uzhe) for 20 years. It is true, this happened, there was such athing, but this.... ({Iinterrupts))... He eats, how he (1G) ALLILUYEVA's sister ~— tbat is, of the former, ALLILUYEVA was STALIN's wife, but her oider ' sister, of the wife, she was ((there)) as the housekeeper (ekononka) for many years... ~ Nadezhda, Nadezhda, it seems, ((was)) her name; he told about her. But what did he say about ALLILUYEVA; what happened to STALIN's wife. But this was not from PETROV; there were in general rumors about her; I heard that she, that is ALLILUYEVA was killed by STALIN himself. How many persons, let us say, in your father's or your family's position, how many knew about this: . i 1010 inc wena tan Str lt tire: Were there many people, or in general did everyone know about this: erred No, no, no, no; that is, it was passed from person to person ((‘fron .
104-10210-10033 AP AGE e rte PaO APE a re re mi okies arr ee tire chee one ees on ne ne 5 SETS ibe ena reek te AR AI EAT ENCES. Marina SEMENOVA, then, who: ear to ear" = s ukho na ukho)) and (XG) he killed her out of (no. 7 4 pochve) jealousy . But what -=- he liked to chase the women (za babskimi yubkani gopyat'’sya)... out of jealousy. Or he did sonething else (Ili chem-to druyim «aninalsya), No. Well, for what there, out of jealousy (XG). What does it mean: she was with somcone, or he was with someone’ Supposedly, supposedly; there was even a rumor that VOROSHILOV supposedly had made advances (priukhazhival) ((to her)). How true this is I do not know, but. ((The guard has brought cold tea)) Please ((Offers tea.)). Thanks. Well, he said that he ((STALIN)) often went at night (po nocham) to the cemetery at Novo-Devichiy Monastyr', to her grave, at night. At night (Noch'yu), he sat there for several hours when it was warm (v teploye vremya). Apparently, he had great feeling for ALLILUYEVA in his soul, if -- in spite oi the many years -- this was after the war, and he continued to go to the cemetery, to the grave, to ALLILUYEVA. I have heard =— you talk of women -- I have heard that there were some women. For example. , : A ballerina, she also went, went directly, to hin; then, then -=- 2 aimee, they talk, I do not know how much is true, about the singer, SHPILLER,
104-10210-10033 einai soe re ‘ , | a ‘ f SHPILLER, I do not know how much is true. wets ded Se A. She is an old woman. B, So, ((wait)) one minute, this was not in later years, ((but in)) 1946 - 1947, in these years. 7 \ Old woman, what kind of old woman; she was about 40 years old, no more. A. And you yourself visited the PETROVs' apartment. , I was, I was not in the PETROVs' apartment, I was at the house, I know the entrance to it (C'wnere" = gde)), but I was not in his, in Leonid's, apartment. A. Where ((is)) this on Neshchanskaya ((Street)). B. This ((is)) the middle of Meshchanskaya ((Street)). A tall gray building, about six stories, it stands out, next to a somewhat smaller building. Butthis ((is)) a communally-owned ((zhaktovskly -- see above)), not an institutionally~owed (vedomstvennyy), building. ei ae Aaa Pea ESN ERE, A, But do you yourself know Third Meshchanskaya ((Street)) well? B. No. - ; I do not know ((it)) well, but have driven along it when droppin off Leonid. A. We will return to the old question. Approximately how much.time did it take, after ROZHENKO had talked ‘ with you and said, then, "please, now you will come to work": ; beet ce ae CE te ee Who. first made._the suggestion that you go to counterintelligence; 1 reemearreeryt tte att marten te how did this happen: Se SKE DAD B, So, listen. oR SCO SALAS SM Ale lel SA ARPES OS eC LACE NT NE BOC EME EE TIE NCAA AA TNT AT, ase - re ee ee Een ee
104-10210-10 ed ve Be. yy! hs ti fed EDR RS ANS ST UNE TE NN A RIE NN Me OT ee ka ES Sra - Siete ks TON SAMEERA um penn ooo oar a gegen } 033 I said that f wae with tnis omployee «= he’ was a case officer (oper) or a ((sentor)) ening oftdieer (upolnonochennyy ) we two tines, and . the third tine, wlth ROATENKO. wnt, now, where 1t will be; the Last phone call And I did not know nh, come to ny office ((’me")) in Building 2, 10 mistdke of Mave was in tt , and not to the Pass Bureau, but directly cut rane oe there will be a pass for me. at the fourth at the fourth onda Further, Wwe ntepped and bean to talk of STALTN's attitudes (otnoshoniyn) . war that STALIN ((was)) dead; when did this When did you tired | happen. Officinlly, thin C(wan)) the second of Marc, the second, it seems, of March, yes. {ntly that at night, today, it was announced It was announced off ia tonigne (nenodnya noch'yu) it took place, but in in such form, that, you know, there is a stroke, a i wie" auoh general the neantin omorrhage occurred, well, there ahead of state of Hhock, 4 bendn lv the word, that HOTOURd Aew@eres Well, this Js net {mpor cant. A brain hemorrhage srss And that he ia Uncenne LOVE Unconsc tous, Unconse Lous, , the wecond and third ((of March)), and he died He was unoonne toue ol at ninht.on the fourth, Where were you at thia tine- . In Moscow, Byeneceteree ce neva uretenrnaen fe ce nmnnere ener. rer 9 in aa menue
104-10210-10 FE ATE TS RIO BRL ELS PEI ti NEE SLSR PER AMEED 7 PAN fete n NOt wa Sra in te ena eet Then ete ot. 033 ate A. Ay D. pro in Moscow? At your parents’, or: At home with my parents, on Gor'kiy Street. hut who Lirst found out about this: your father, or you, or your mothor. wno was the first, who heard ((about it)), what: it I da not remember. 1 do not renember how it was. who first: this one ((was)) farst, that one ((was)) first (vot etot porvyy, vot etot pervyy). yp remember that it was the first thing in the norning (bylo srazu rhe utron), to my thinking, of the second ((of Narch)) I found out nbout this. Can you tell me, approximately, what kind of conversation there was at hone when you learned that STALIN ((was)) dead: What was your father’s reaction. Father was terribly depressed; mother, of course, was upset. yathor was terribly upset, depressed and shaken by this. Furthorw, after they had put STALIN.... In the Hall of Columns (Kolonnyy Zal)¥ In the Hall of Columns of the House of Unions; how many times did you vieit the Hall of Columns of the House of Unions, whiie his hedy was there? ((Long pause; then, without certainty and in a low voice:)) I was there only one time. tlew did you get there: ae dled peer + soy if Gonens ga we chee chetprethar.
104-10210-10033 awder,.waat..circumstances..did.you..aake,,the,.visit..(posetili).: etiam anatie 6. MEE HOPE VAMOS OLE san B. ((Long pause)) I went with father, because there was no other way to get through (inache tam bylo ne proyti). (Cit was)) awful, what had happened. But they approached (pod"yezhali) from what is now Marx ((Street) (so storony seychas Marksa), this is the government entrance (vkhod), ° and the Ministers passed throucti here. I went with father straight here, but it ((was)) closed here, they aid not pernit cars to pass; only a government vehicle could zo there (pod"yexhat'). I went with him here, he went up, I went, well, there ((was)) a roon where they could drink water, smoke, sit, rest, there ((was)) the hall, and I went through here, going with them, took off ((coats)) here, I already had gone through, I joined the whole crowd which was going in from Pushkin ((Street)), but just outside the huilding I joined ((the crowd)) and went through; ((Pause)) that is what I did. Do you not remember who stood in the Honor Guard at this tine. No, I do not remember. I do not remenber. How much time was STALIN there, in this Hall of Columns of the House of Unions: What unusual ((thing)) happened in Moscow during these days’ Well, in Moscow there was... with the people... terrible... the people tried to go through... very many people, the streets ((were)) jammed (perekryty), they crushed the crowd (massa) of people. In what way did they crush ((then))* Well, a crowd (tolpa) gathers, let us suppose, in the by-streets (pereulki); here a by =street is jammed with vehicles; they press ((those in)) the rear against ((those in)) the front; well, then, See eS A a ree fours Sar Ceemm Leen Waren ate Ae whale erat Segre: ad
104-10210-10033 A. A. But were you present at the funeral? he nounted Hilitia, in general, nightmarish... 0s Se ements, eee What was the reaction of the Moscow citizens (nostivichi) to this a 4 i * crushing ~- So many people were killed, etc.: No cne announced ((anything)) aLout this. a But all the same they iknow. ‘But there was the rumor that those bastards (svolochi takiye) are crushing the people, they cannot get througa (ne mozut pustit'). As if, so to speak, they are doing ((it)) especially, ((there was)). simply the fear that something can come up (( arise" == voznitnut )). How many ((times)) did your father go to the House ((of Unions)). He was there every day. : Every day. He went several days; they went several times 2 day; they went in the morning, during the aay, in the evening, several times a day. He stood in the Honor Guard. Yes, Do you not remember on what day? No, He stood several times. To my thinking, he stood each day. ' Because they stood there only three to five minutes in all ((at one time)). And he could stand several times a day. Settee nial we 4
104-10210-10033  “"" A, Waat «= you did not want to, or how ({sas it)). B. ({Long pause)) A pass was not written for me. Only because, usually, when I was at nome, before my departure for : 3 the Far East, before my departure for tue Far East, all holidays, - any holidays, ((observed)) in Red Square or at Tushino Airfield, there was always a pass for all the fonily, mother separately, and for ne. ; , ‘ For father, it goes without saying, ((a pass was prepared)) separately. , Bit in this case (( here" - zdes'))} apparently I had been absent, you see, part of 1950, 1951, 1952, and when, at the beginning of 1953, I was not registered ((‘an not registered" - ne chislyus')) in Lloscow, (Ca pass)) was not prepared (ne vypisan) for me, to that { place (tuda) it was not again necessary, a pass for Red Square, well, as ((is)) usual, if one goes with his fanily (yesli poyti 6 sem yani). A. Then, you went? ; B. I did not reccive a pass. A then you were not at the funeral? pa aeereet eee ae B. No, no. Aa cae eR, MARLON ane ole A. In what way were the funeral banquets, as they say in Russian, organized at home after STALIN's death: . : 7: ‘ After the funeral? . — What did they do in your home: penta 8b Was there sone kind of special get-together (vecherinka)? » ws Be ded eit B. No, no. Absolutely ‘nothing. : ; 4 SPOOL BOO DG Vas aE adalat PORE RS PELTON Lhe rs wer Cy > Leer ;
104-10210-10033  yoeggagr ere B. No, no, no; no one was a guest at our place, and ((there was)) no funeral banquet; there was nothing at our hone. A. Nothing. A. Now, we will return to that monent that you, then, ((when)) ROZHENKO- sent you to (({the Second Chief Directorate)). : B. No. ROZHENKO did not send ((m2)). ROZHENKO only talked with me, but everything remained unclear for me. est . Then what: "You will be put in the know; you will be at the disposal; you will be put in the know. “As soon as there will te an order (prikaz) on you, you «= they will . : phone youv=-— will be informed (vam ob"yavyat)". Aud there was a phone call for me in the middle of March — it was H just after STALIN's funeral << that I should come. to the fourth entrance of Building 2, where _- not in the Pass Bureau, but directly at the entrance -- there will be a pass for me. aa A. You went to the fourth entrance of Building 2; what did you find there? B. Tnere there was for me, at the fourth entrance -- you go in, they check the pass here; I said that there must be a pass for me here. Now, one minute -- ((said)) the duty officer (vakhter ofitser); : then the duty officers were officers, checking passes == later, they were replaced with sergeants-petty officers (serzhanty-starshiny) ; I went up; yes, ((he said)) there is (yest'), please go in (pozhaluysta, prokxhodite). VP site ed dentable 3 Obi (1G) to the reception room, to KOBULOV, Bogdan Zakharovich, who ae ebay etd te cae cee ewes Rvrmene ES RE ATE FET ht ETA, NE AEE EER HAE MORE, SER EN ee RRM on LON ome meee | Mebane tee oes
ea ey 104-10210-10033 VD"((and)) the ick>“were conbined in one WVD == he was then appointed First Deputy. Taney too’: hin from Germany, from GUSIMZ ((Chief Directorate of Soviet Property Abroad)), as First Deputy. A. You do not remember until what tine he was in Germany B. Until (( until the moment of" ~ do momenta)) STALIN's death; he returned ((Pause))}, he returned to the Ministry for State Security (Hinisterstvo Gosbezopasnosti), to the MVD, A. You are sure, and you know ((this)) exactly. B. Exactly, exactly; ab:lutely, because the new HWinistry: they conbined the MVD and the HGB; the Minister BERIYA; the First Deputy -= Bogdan KOBULOV. A. But I am saying, do you know exactly that he came from Germany at this tine: B. No, he came as soon as it happened with STALIN. A. But before this time, you had met hin in January; he, what -~- went back to Germany: GP. In January, when I saw hin -— as far as I remenber -- he was for a ae St eae manatee time, for a short time — either they called hiu to Moscow or he had come for New Year's, a short period, but he had to go back to Germany. To his "BISHUTH" (V Visnut svoy). _A. At the fourth entrance they gave you a pass, and you yourself went : r to look ((for the office)): - de Nae See eG et B. No, ((it was)) indicated there, the office ((was)) indicated, room thes eusem such-and-such; this was the third floor, on the third floor. } i j 2 : é i i i & a |
eMC wr we. Cid FOOM Karaya eto konna ta) . co ose esnips 104-10210- 10033 ie ee ee ae ee - I went there. : I took off (Cay coat)). . oO a aa You go in, here sits some sort of secretary (vrode sekretar’), on : the left ((is)) the reception room —- several persons were sitting. . % Then, still another office (yeshche odin kabinet) -- this was not a : | secretary, but KOBULOV's assistant (pomoshchnik), SAVITSXIY, They directed me to hin. SAVITSKIY said: "Wait, tate off ((your coat)), sit dom." ! I sat for an hour or an hour and a half, here in the reception roon. SAVITSKIY again called ne and says: "You know what: Go to six hundred... six hundred... si:: hundred 7orty... seven, Roon 647 of Building 2, “Bogdan Zakharovich ((is)) very busy; ((go)) directly to Comrade . SHUBNY AKOV ." . | Who is this, who is this; he told me absolutely nothing. And I left this SAVITSKIY; I had spent the time sitting in the : reception room, and no one had received me, but according to ((my)) idea ((of things)), KOBULUW, Rogdan, should have received me; I went to the sixta floor, to Room 647, to SHUBNYAXOV -- First Deputy of FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich, Chief of the Second Chief Tirectorate ~~ 9 eve ee nem aerate Hardee ane wo SHUENYAKOV . I went to this Room 647. The secretary, I said to the secretary that he ((SAVITSXIY)) had sent me to Comrade SHUBNYAKOV, ((that)) Comrade SAVITSKXIY had sent ((me)) from Comrade KOBULOY's reception room, ; ; "One minute" ((he said)), . . : a He went to him, reported; "Now, go in" ((he said)). I went in, to Comrade SHUPNYAXOV., SHUBNYAKOV is sitting alone. "And here I found out that I will be working <= and that there already is an order -. and: that I am assigned (chislyus'’) in the Second Chief Directorate and that I will be working in the First Departmeat © as. “ vert maicenta whe Tae aie (otdel), the First Section. (otdeleniye). OED. Sid PB RE pete nt inate ma th zach ade Na" RBIS Gintcanintte> entetah mister os He rang up Acting (( 1I.0.°: ispolnyayushchiy obyazannosti)) Chief of a a Yes PRE ROR Re permanence rrbeataee sereniey owner tient “reer ear stro E PEE O88
104-10210-10033 “Artem ™ one é | ; i | . Ps ry w@ 22375 wetpar en. wakes ol UhO who is this (!:to taizoy) GORDATENO. At the monent of my arrival, he was Actinz Chief of the First Departient. Soon after, at the end of March or in.the beginning of April, he was assigned as Chief of the Departnent, of the First Departnent. He ((SHUDNYAXOV)) rang up GORBATENKO, introduced ((me)), “ilere is your new employee, Comrade ((5's surnane)); the order on his assignnent to the First Departnent, First Section as a case officer already has been signed; ((that is)) all; so". I vent, talked with GORBATENO. GORDATENKO ran up KOZLOV, Chief of the Section, and on the following day I went to work. Well, what, practically, did SHUBNYAKOV tell you. Explain to ne. About what did you talk with SHUPNYAKOV. I arrived. He said —_ again, I will not tell you word for word; I do not renember word for word; I will give the sense of that conversation, as it was. But again, briefly, I told him about myself, briefly, in several words. . I told that I was bewn there (tanto), I graduated from the Institute of International Relations and began work in the GRU line (po linii GRU), I had worked in the Far East and on the Baltic, everything. “What language did you study:" English. Well, briefly, about myself. "Well, here, there is an order on you, on your assignment to the First Departnent, a counterintelligence Department, working against Anerican intel? tgence,; against the American Embassy; you will be a pa ete EL es ae thee tele edee * working in the First Section, as a case officer". wa
~ woe —™ +e. of . ee ome ~ no ——- 1 04-1 021 0-1 0033 VE ecrpeansen jp ate Mite a ec mene neha seb ere maha mtr aeRO NRE RCS eiN ESN nti B. I did not now anythinaz. And I nad absolutely no understanding of what a case officer ((is)), of what a senior case officer ((is))}. A. Probably they explained to you. B. ((They explained)) that it is an officer's position (dolzhnost ), that it is a beginning (pervonachal'naya) ((position)), that we have the junior (mladshiy) case officer the... ((one)) minute... was he called junior" then. Assistant case officer (Pom. opera). I do not resember: junior or assistant case officer. It means =~ first, then case officer, senior case officer. Weil, you understand, you have not been working with us, you are : only beginning, we cannot five you "senior", but "junior" also is not for you (Yam ne dayet), because you have graduated from the ' Institute and you already have even sone kind of work experience, sone kind of experience of work in the GRU. Alright (ihorosho), I do not know how much this paid (skol'ko eto zarplaty), that , nothing, absolutely nothing.... ; ' For .e, this absolutely.... A. But were you interested: What kind ox pay, what. B. No, no, no, no. I did not even ask. A. When they assigned (chislili) you there, vith what rank were you assigned: B, As a lieutenant. a : of, It was.as a lieutenant. L° & «Preteen EAR SE RE aE A RNS. cee ert AE meme te in ete ance ee ae ee see ot ‘ eee nto oe i
104-10210-10033 rr esr eer srerrentenrsremare aeceentenee BL Lieutenant. Od 2g 3 q 5 ache. rer : » A. And what did they do for you; ((did they nake)) sone kind of tag. i (Cor “addition” - pripisia)) to the rank, lieutenant, or not. seen tte stated dada oe B. Absolutely none. ' ; Absolutely. I understand of what you ara asking. ‘ Absolutely... A, Was it said from what date you would be assiened (zachislyayeétes' )- B. It was said that the order ((had heen)) signed, the order on me (({had been)) signed; he rang up GORBATENKO; GORPATENKOsaiid the order regarding (v otnoshenii) ({B's surname)) ((has been)) signed; let ok him take ((his)) place, define ((his duties)), begin work. A. Do you not remember exactly on what date the order (Cwas)) ‘signed: B. But I do not remenber -~- the twelfth, the fifteenth, well, the niddle of March. weet one 4. The order was ((effective)) from that day on which you began work or earller’ B. No, as far ag I understood, I think that on this very day when they phoned me, probably the order had been signed in the morning. Whether on the twelfth or the fifteenth, but the order already had ‘been signed, ((and)) therefore they called ne. A. You were working there. Cem te Pa, cee ot What kind of pay did you receive? B. It means, so: The basic pay (oxlad) was 1,700 ((rubles)) plus 500 Bacauerve ? i j 3 i i 3 & | g i 5 Se eee en eee ieee ne eee ee ee ie ee
104-10210-10033 ; } i 3 t i g i i + -§ 2 & F > £ q é § i 8 Fe A os & ‘ 2 ; i Fi Fe i Es ny e o- we Bue -NULUOr ,. Zaten mne shlo_ |. CeO HI ASR ZAR CHR Carte Mp ape Addn Es ee zhe) 3%; plus, yes, 10%, 10% ~- this (Gas for)) language, well and this, after about two or three nonths, 10% for secrecy (sexretnost ), and after two-three months, ((for)) language, because it was necessary for me to pass an examination, here, at the courses (na kursakh) on Kisel nyy (v Kisel'nom) ((Bol'shoy Kisel'nyy pereulo ~— wWnere the Higher School of the KGB is located)); I passed the examination, and ({received)) another 10%; in all, then, 25%, 2,200 ((rubles)), plus 25%, This 5% ((was)) for what: Length ((in years)) of service (vysluga). For length of service: Yes, You remember this exactly -= that the basic pay was 1,700: 1,700, yes. 1,700, ((and)) 500. Then, soon afterward; soon afterward, literally, whether at the end of 1953, to my thinking, they tool: away ((the pay)) for rank (za pogony); we received only the basic pay, ((the pay for)) secrecy, aud they did not pay for rank: When did this begin’ To my thinking, the end of 1953, the beginning of 1954; I do not remenber . Then, this was, it continued approximately a year, then again they returned ((to paying)) for rank (za. zvaniye). Well, approximately; you must know exactly the. pay (zarplata), etc. When did they stop (srezali) paying for rank’ t * fete
104-10210-10033 + Ate mere Ba ener et i : | é i i: MET oan Pe RNA AS a mggeee SS > ts xemenber_that..over.the period of a year (v_ techeniye goda), this... 4, wnether in the end of 1953, in the heginning of 1954, they stopped paying for rank. ((Pauses)) They did not pay for approximately a year (primerne v techeniye goda). And then in what year did they begin again to pay: Well, after a year. Is it that you are saying that'at the end of 1953 or in the beginning of 1954 they stopped paying. Yes, Well, then, in 1954, they were not paying; in 1955, they already were paying again. In 1955, they had begun to pay again: Yes, ((Pauses)) I do not remember the date exactly. Why did they take away ((the pay)) for rank: The economy struggle (Bor'ba za ekonomiyu)... In the Council of Ministers (v SovMine), in the Council of Ministers (v Sovets Ministrov). This probably was somehow explained to the employees? It was explained that we consider that we alone of (1G) of the Ministry, we ((are)) the most highly paid. So. The most (raiboleye) highly: paid, and ((they)) were. the most (samyye) highly paid. * By ewe tone elena te ae 2m wee Le
on wipe eee (predlozhentye) was this done... 104-10210-10033 B. It was the suggestion of soncone in the Presidium, ‘I I do not remenber whose suggestion; a resolution (resheniye) was adopted in the Presidiun. But it did not continue long- 4 It continued... for a year. The problem was resolved anew. A. But why did they begin to pay again. Who made this suggestion. B. I do not now. They began to consider the work of the MVD -= the Winistry, this was the former MVD; there still was no KGB then -=| they compared ((it)) to the Arny. - | A. They were conpared to the Arny before this B. You even asked me whether they made a tag (Cor, "addition" = pripiska)) to my rank; I say no. There, they were, you see, Major of State Security (Mayor Gosbezo= pasnosti), Senior Lieutenant of State Security, and so forth. This was not the Army. A.. When was this’ B. Well, this was befcre the war and during the war (v gody voiny), during the war an¢ even after the war, A. Until approximately what time; a - oes ~ X do not know until what tine approximately . I... did not have such a tag (pripiska) to ny rank; I began to work in. 1953. , tg fe «TEP LUD ott ARRON rt 6 TORIC Ye hv ree reser ac rene eet SLMS NONE tard La nets mete wea e oo nee iis * 3 . 7 sme
104-10210-10033 “= | : | g i E E a : x s B. ((Long pause)) Well, I do not renember, I do not remenzer. Because ((when)) I came, then there was no State Security; then, there was the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Colonels, licutenants, without the addition (bez dohavleniya) of "GR ((State Security - Gosbezopasnosti)) » without the addition. But how did they unite the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry for State Security. What ranxs did they have -— those wao were working in the MGB and those wio were working in the LVD. ((Long pause; talks to hinself in a low voice, repeating the question:)) It means, what ranks. What kind. What difference in ranks was there between the LIVD and the NMGB. ' But in the MVD «~ this ((is)) the Mil’tia (eto MWilitsiya): Colonel of Militia, Lieutenant of Militia, or Commissar of Militia. Rut what else did they have? They had, you see, not only the Militia alone (ne tol ko odna Militsiya) before the time when they were joined (prisoyedinilis'). Well,there were the Convoy Troops, there were the camps, the oe Construction Troops, there were.... What kind of ranks did they _— I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. You began work when the HVD already had begun (stalo), when BERIYA had: taken over (vzyal verkh) and they had-combined.the -MVD and the 7 ' MGB. | , — y j 4 Hy : ' + }
104-10210-10033 ‘diffcroncs” in ranks” was there (CWetween}) those whe had soreed rr '. previously in the 'VD and those who had wor':ed previously in the “NG; nov, they ((vere)) tomether; what kind of difference in rans existed betveen then. B. I do not know, I do not know what kind of difference. A. What «- one was called (odni nazyvalis') Major of internal Affairs; | the other, Major of State Security, or how. ( B. The point is that there was no tag (pripisxa) ((like)) this "State Security (Gosbezopasnosti) °. ((ihen)) I began work, there was no such tag (ne bylo etoy pripis:i). A. But, in the HVD, what kind of tag was there. B. I do not know, I do not know. A. Are you exactly certain that they paid you the basic pay (oklad) as ! a case officer? B. I began as a case officer, as a case officer. A. 1,700 rubles: i B. 1,700. ‘ * | A, And 500? j F B. 500 for rank (za zvaniye). , 3 4 A. For rank‘ i : : B. They took away ((the pay for)) rank and... there was left ~—— the FA ja , ; : basic pay for position (dolzhnostnoy oklad) plus, then, ((for)) :
Fecy, FP us oie hBRGuAge, percentages only (protsentnyye tol'ko). . 104-10210-10033 0 “tment: o eneReT oe 55 ERS RCS ale oe A atts BBE fare neu necicanew ence ui A. You are saying, anyway (vse), that they too: away the pay for ran: (za zvaniye snyali platit') at the end of 1353. In fifty-... I think... I do not know exactly, I think that ((it was)) at the end of 1933. You renenber exactly that you received ((pay)) for rank, but then began not to receive (ne stali poluchat’) ((such pay }). Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Then began not to receive ((tnis pay)). Did not receive, yes. But then again began (stall)? But then again I began te receive ((it)). Let us go back 9 little, to.... This was, you see, a very short period, to ny thinking, when the MGB and the MVD were combined under one Ninistry and they were ee one Ministry, a short period. When, officially, did they organize the KGB: In 1955, or 1954; 1954, it seems, or 1955. (CWait a)) minute.... ((Pauses)) We were even in 1954 or 1953; at one time the Second Directorate was called -«~ for approximately six or eight months — tae First “Directorate. But the First Directorate. was the Second Directorate. ((Paus2s)) © ' I do not remember... I do not renember, wi Sceper i 3 z % Pewee aeereees One eee Mh be he sar hdee Cabdieeb ate
104-10210-10033 | renember’, “approxinatéely,” when “they” arrested ‘ABARiNOV' MIRO AUR ee te mee ee Man se ate DES Een Fhe see B. _ You worked there so many years, there were .conversati _ ABAKUMOV was arrested when IGNAT'YEV was Minister. _ Uhhh, ABAXUNOV, oho, they arrested before my tine of.serv: (C'before me" = do menya)). But approximately when. . When was IGNAT'YEV: Minister. IGNAT'YEV was Minister unt.i STALIN's death, 9 -n You remember who were his Deputies. I was not working ((then)), I do not remember, I know, I heard that GOGLIDZE was a Deputy ((dinister)) ¢*he was ((Deputy Minister)) under both ABAKUMOV and IGNAT'YEV . ; Who else: ((Long pause)) MASLENNIKOV, to my thinking, was at’ one: tine, yes. One of the Deputies was SV INELUPOV . A gia Who was not there {Kogo tan tol'ke ne bylo).! ; BLINOV and RYASNOY and SAVCHENKO and... they all charged... and I have in mind only that period when -=- as you began to say —- 4 IGNAT'YEV was Minister; who were his. ...? oo - , on ; _ : . I do not know; I do not know. : Because I was not working in this period (2G)... : a oo ”, I understand. i i You say that you were not working ((then)), but after this ((period))
104-10210-10033 A. 4, Renee nna ie Geer eS OLA Jong time; you probably, wien, you _tived there, there were conversations: that ((one)) was, that ((one)} was... I say: there was RYASNOY, SAVYCHENKO; they were Deputies. fo IGNAT'YEV. To IGNAT'YEV, yes. You are certain of this. No, no, no; I am not certain, not certain. I do not want to tell you, because I do not know exactly; I am not certain. I know that they were working; at what time ~- to my thinking, under IGNAT'YEV (u IGNAT'YEVA), | Think about this a little; who else were IGNAT'YEV's Deputies’ ((Pauses)) I do not know. I was not working ((there, then)), I was not working during IGNAT'YEV's tine, no. But what happened with GOGLIDZE. Well, GOGLIDZE was arrested when BERIYA was arrested. And MASLENNIKOV? MASLENNIKOV"> | : This one shot himself. ; - It is not know why. : They sey that he left a letter for the government (pravitel‘stvo). But the reasons —- no one announced. anything. Beene ets But this was after STALIN's death, later, MASLENNIKOV. ‘ . 7 «J 4 “uy Baths. ay oa Sake tt oak
104-10210-10033 Mtr erentererrernenemmnenintateasisssiontiien en iclb EAE RISD SRA Was aati teh atte uteebves wie merennne sin me eccne none B. ‘I do not know exactly. | He was removed (('These were removed" = Eti byli snyati)). SVINELUPOV, he had been removed previously (eto byli snyati ran'she). He (Eto) was the Personnel man (kadroviz) under ABAKUHOV. When, previously: You are saying that he was under MASLENNIXOV... under IGNAT'YEV. I am say ing thet they worked in ABAKUMNOV's IGNAT'YEV's time, such people. But when they, waat years, when they were removed, were appointed == I do not know this. I do not want to drag you back to ABAKUNOV, etc.; I simply asked how you knew who was ((there)). You said that IGNAT'YEV was Minister.... IGNAT'YEV was Minister.... . And my question was, who were his Deputies’ You said: GOGLIDZE, MASLENNIKOY, SVINELUPOV, SAVCHENKO, RYASNOY.... No. I am saying that ((they)) were, but who was, I am not certain. Because I do not know exactly who were IGNAT'YEV's Deputies, who were ABAKUHOV's; I do not know, I do not know. I know that at one time ((they)) were Deputies in this Ministry... I gave his name (Ya nazval yego familiyu). Of course, in each Ministry there are Deputies. No. (Cit is)) simply that I heard the names; it could have been Ne OGOL'TSOV, RYASNOY, SAVCHENKO, SVINELUPOV, BLINOV; who else? PSPS RE TION 9 EE RETR EMT OTA FoF EO RSET PEIN PNT OLN NEE APOE Ent APOE OEE hr Sry ee eee te,
104-10210-10033 cori : mud ; i A. Do you remember anyone else who was under IGNAT'YEV: ne opp pnt ete = 'B. Oh, oh, oh; this very, a “clinber" (bylez), a phenomenal career, ((one)) of the investigators (sledovatel'’), a "comer" (brosok)... eM vem he ee AR Cent ne how ((was)) his...: He was a senior investigator and up to (do) Deputy Minister.... { A, wWho- i NYUMIN. B. Yes, yes, yes; exactly. A. Wnat happened with RYUMIN: B. Together. When they removed IGNAT'YEV, they removed him, also. RYUMIN was on the Doctors' Plot ((‘Case" «- po celu vrachey)). Tnis ((was)) the Doctors’ Plot; this ((was)) RYUMIN. A, And what hanpened with IGNAT'YEV after they had removed him- B. IGNAT'YEV went to the Tatar ((Autonomous Oblat)), as First Secretary, to the Tatar ((Autoncmous Oblast)); it was surprising that ; IGNAT'YEV remained in such a big post, having the Doctors' Plot on 4 his back. As First Secretary in the Tatar ASSR, the Autonomous Oblast. AL Did you hear from anyone what part the Second Chief Directorate: speretetasr wenn oot took in this Doctors’ Plot and ((the case of)) the letters of Lidiya TIMASHUK: " = ‘ .: fen, a8 8 eperint teens ra B. I do not know the details. : pee Ate I only know only one interesting detail. ; oo Let tere eneneettiene +
104-10210-10033 do-not’ know" ((whether)) “ft"is"interesting-or' not” interest Sng en WL aoe et PRIETO ANE Ug rh MOAT ER Betas iy LOS yt + A. When I cane, when’ had arrived -- here is what 12 interestins == 8 wane SHUBNYALGY phonedm, he talked with me, he phoned GORDATENKO, . GORBATENKO talked with me, and this very day I saw the Chief of the First pepartnent ~~ that is, you understand, he still was assigned ((chislilsya), but was not working, chen was not working, as Chief of the First Departnent -= Colonel XOZLOV,. Anatoliy Serreyevich. t Everyone in the world knows him (Yego vse Znayut, vo vsen nuire); ' we do not need to talk about him (ne sleduyet o nem razgovarivat'). No, here, he took part on the Docto:.3' Plot (v dele vrachey); he took part; they sent (brosili) him to the Special Investigative, Investigative Unit (chast') for Especially Important Cases; they sent (brosili) him for (na) the Doctor's Plot, and he took what part: - They cailed up all these doctors who had been arrested and persuaded them to give testimony (pokazaniy::) that everything that they had said before this was untrue, that this was taken only by beating (tol'tko hitven), that they had told lies (nepravda). And the poor doctors did not know whether to tell lies now or to tell the truth. But finally they agreed to tell the truth. In general, they convinced the doetere ta adnit that the previous testimony bad been incorrect. . % It was in this that KOZLOV took part. And therefore I said, when GORBATENKO, his Chief of Department (yego nachal'nik otdela), because KOZLOV continued to be assigned (chislit'sya) as Chief of the Departnent.... But, TIMASHUK, then, I heard that they took back the Order of Lenin, that it ((the case)) was "manufactured (dutoye)”. TIMASHUK was an egent. ’ 3 a i But not only heard.
104-10210-10033 MENON oo atte te ett eaten ttt mone se mae aE Seah doth Rh ceacs ois a aa, £ ast Gens ttt on tend te hER TN tach SR bane A DeSean ras~arnounced~in-the newspapers rrr om eer In the newspapers, it was announced only that the Order of Lenin had been taken away from her. But that... you mentioned SAVCHENKO; what was he doing at this tine. During IGNAT'YEV's time. They were, in order, in IGNAT'YEV's time, they were, in order, SAVCHENKO, RYASXOY, Chiefs of the First Directorace, the Intelligence Directorate (Upravicniye Razvedki). SAVCHENKO® was ((Chief)) at one time; before this, SAVCHENKO had worked in the Ukraine, but here, in Moscow, in tloscow, he was Chief ef the First Directorate (Upravleniye Pervoye). He was ((Chief)) at one time; then, one time, RYASNOY. Then RYASNOY was Deputy, then RYASNOY was Chief of the Hoscow Directorate (Noskovskoye Upravleniye). ‘That $3 what I heard (Vot takoye, takoye, slyshal). What happened to RYASNOY later. He was retired (V otstavke on). He was retired, cn pension, and did not work anywhere. Why do I know: Because I was living at the dacha of one of the colleagues vith whom KOVSHUK worked; the dacha was near RYASNOY's (dacha byla ryadom s RYASNYM). A. But what of SAVCHENKO: B. SAVCHENKO (A SAVCHENKO).... ((End of Reel #1; Reels #1 and #2 "“overlap"))