20026 (202) S54-2945 SUIYHOTON, OP. C. WAS WH. REPORTERS QUTELDUNG, Ion 7TH STREET, S 4 qa ~ de a. ia wee ee —_ ae io nm a eee ee re ~) oy oO rere a Doclid: 32266684 ‘ us iy tna Page 3 session be closed. . G/ Chairman Stokes. It has been properly moved that the. The clerk will call the roll. <7 . Mitss,Berning. Mr. Nem” Chairman Stokes. - —s . . ‘Mass, Berning. Mr. Cee” Mr. Devine. Aye. —— : -Misss, Berning. Mr. wae . Mr. Preyer. . Aye. Mésss, Berning. Mr. Mr. McKinney. Aye a . MgSS. Berning. Mr. ‘ (No response} oN : Muss. Berning. Mr. [No response}| a 4 . Mass. Berning. ‘eon : . [No response]] Mrs. Stokes. Aye. Devine. Preyer. . McKinney. ‘pauntvoy. Thone. Burke. — os Maes. Berning. Mr. Sawyer. {Ro response} 7 : MagSS, Berning. Mr. —_ : -Mr. Dodd. Aye. Miss, Berning. Mr. Neer : Mr. Ford. Aye. Migss, Berning. Mr. al (No response}] Ford. Fithian. ALBERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
1 7 $3. Bexning. Mr. Edgar. @ 1 Mr. Edgar. Aye. 3 Migs, Berning. Seven Ayes, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Stokes. Seven members having voted in the th e Codtmm/ Hee. be in the anti-Castro Cuban community or in some way connected ad . * a * a * . a . ¢ z gs ; affirmative, ¢hismsessiem is now in executive session and ~ it . . . , . : 1 3 . i = if ; “. ~ } all members of the public are asked to be excused from the _ ih e¢ 7 |} room. ~ Ss 3 Mr. Blakey. fo | . 9 Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, you have before you a resolu- ~ 10 | tion for immunitfwhich would authorize counsel'on behalf of S , . = oi i the committee to appear before the court and secure immunity = | : : . . wt H . . = 12 | orders. for those people whose names are designated on the - cS : . © = 13 | list. These immunity orders are like those similarly secured = i« j in the past. They are contingency orders; they would of = 1g | course not become effective unless communicated to a witness~ S 4 = 134 during the course of the proceeding. ~ | = i) , a IW | The justifications for the immunity orders appear on S 38 | attachnents. . In essence they are either those people involved: = = = SS a ae | 20 | to organized crime. That is the general description of them. I i y 2 ' we have some reason to suspect that many, if not all, of them ON i so Ad >“ aa a ; 2 : , * * * : e pe aa i would have good reason to claim for the self-incrimination. I 23 would be glad to answer any questions about them individually. e a4 Mr. Preyer (presiding). Are there any questions concern- | 245 5 ing any of these? ‘AL L Entered vs Pll comm Hee exhi bi T Xo. 17, sec App. ze Pp wo id ALDSERSON REPORTING COMBANY, INC. DoclId: 322766634 Page 4
H 390 7TU STREET, S.U. REPORTERS BULED ONG, VASINUCTON, D.C. 20024 (202) S$5n-2345 “uy / Docld: 322766634 2 Mr. Blakey. Yes. 24 I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Wolf reminds me that one ; or two are not yet located. | Mr. Preyer. If there are no questions, is there a motion ; 4 | adopting this resolution? 7 | Mr. S@eoeet. I so move. a Mr. Dodd. Second. 9 | Mr. Preyer. Moved and seconded. 10 i Miss, Berning-.will call the roll. — . ~ Hy Mr. McKinney. the Zhairman is outside going over a 12 1 letter. ! . . 2 | Mr. Blakay. The proxies are made out to the ghairman. i . si - Mr. Preyer. There are familiar names in here. You might] — j : is | advise me of the nature of these people. | Mr. Blakey. The nature of the fact is that we are begin-~ i7 | ning to move into the interrogation of those people who. have *f | been the subject ‘of previous testimony. an Mass, Berning. Mr. Stokes. | . . 7 Chairman Stokes. Aye. { . 7 * . . ° ‘ aa Miss. Berning. Mr. Devine. — 22 ( Mr. Devine. Ave. | rae M@ss. Berning. Mr. Preyer. | ae Mr. Preyer. Aye. | | i <—_\ : : i Mass, Berning. Mr. McKinney. | | | | F wave we been able to locate all these people? ALDSEASOM RESORTING COMPANY, INC.
Muss, Berning. Mr. Fauntroy. Ww 5 re | re ; yi] Mr. Mckinney. Aye. . ! Chairman Stokes. Ayes by proxy. MSS, Berning. Mr. Thone. ; ; ina de a eee eee - = (No response}| eo 3 Maggs, Berning. Mrs. Burke. | = 7 | Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy. | = ee . , = 3 | -Magss, Berning. Mr. Sawyer. co | [to response}] . | = | —~ ne | | = id Mass, Berning. Mr. Dodd. Soy! Mr. Dodd. Aye. | Oo 7 = 124 Mims, Berning. Mr. Ford. | . | Nemaaeerert” ; . . © 5 (13 | Mr. Ford. Aye. — c= i . ; 4. : Mpss, Berning. Mr. Fithian. 5 13 4 ‘Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy. | ° it . . S 4 i , oo : 16 Miss, Berning. Mr. Edgar. _ | | = i “17 Mr. Edgar. Aye. | a 1 t —, : : : { z Bi ‘Mags. Berning. Ten Ayes, Mr.. Chairman. l = OIF | Chairman Stokes. Ten members having voted in the affirm- | 5 20 | ative, the resolution is adopted. | i : { a Th Mr. Blakey. Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, the next question that requires , I 'a vote of the committee deals with a resolution authorizing ! counsel on behalf of the committees to appear before court and ee / ’ t wa an secure latters for interrogatories. This is a necessity which | \ 1 j i Hl i ALT ERSON RESORTING COMPANY. INC. Docld: 3277666584 Page 6
6 is an outgrowth of the committee's trip to Portugal. The mw Portuguese authorities have requested these letters, the tw nature of which is explained in an attachment, to enable the staff in a subsequent trip to Portugal to speak with de — ; Mass, Berning. Mr. Stokes. eee” ” = 5 | Portuguese citizens. To do this we have to go to court to ‘ i ; n | get the appropriate papers. S 7 | Y For the committee to go to court, there must be an x a appropriate resolution. The individuals whose names appear ¢ . . * | . gee . es JS 9 | in the resolution are those individuals we have identified as = i0 possible witnesses in Portugal. As you will recall, James Eo Farl Ray spent some of his overseas sojourn in that country a i - oe E43 | and these are people in some way connected to him. - } : . ra) \ : @ = 13 Chairman Stokes. Okay. Is there. any further discussion = i a OG = ts , on the resolution? > oo = 434 Any questions? Ss HH = 3 | Mr. Devine. I move the adoption. = . Ahan “ 7 | Mr. Preyer. I would just comment that #kex Hausman and < . eddie | 2 8 aia Evans have done a very good job in order to get access. to aA pe = i3 | these witnesses and it has been tough. € Ss 29 Chairman Stokes. That is good to know. ( ; | pee Tt If there is nothing further at this time, the clerk will ® awd + call the roll. . _ 23 | Docld: 322766634 Chairman Stokes. Aye. Miss, Berning. Mr. Devine. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 7
2002" (202) S5¥-2345 Hoc, VASHLUGTON , REPORTERS BUTLDING, Me s JON 7TH STREET, 8h ety f “Ss ee S / Docld: 322766634 nw _ ne —— oiaees /, 2 , | 7 | i) tan Y rsx. Devine. Aye. Mss, Berning. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Preyer. Aye. a.) . : Mess.,Berning. Mr. McKinney. metal Mr. McKinney. Aye. - Migss.Berning. Mr. Fauntroy. Neer” Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy. Mss. Berning. Mr. Thone. ee . {No - response}] - Mass, Berning. Mrs. Burke. Necescr” Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy. Misss.Berning. Mr. Sawyer. fo response)| Mis$, Berning. Mr. Dodd. Mr. Dodd. Aye. Migsg, Berning. Mr. Ford. nl } “Mr. Ford. Aye. MawssgBerning. Mr. Fithian. Nena , Chairman Stokes. Aye by proxy. _— . Mss, Berning. Mr. Edgar. ° =? . ; Mr. Edgar. Aye. : — . . : . Masse Berning. Ten Ayes, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Stokes. Ten members having voted in the affirmative, the resolution is adopted. : Mr. Blakey. ALDERSON SEPORTING COMPANY, INC.
' 300 TT STREEP, Sou. REPORTERS BULEDING, MASITNGTON, 0.0, 20024 (202) $5N-2345 ils 7} na } / Docld: 322766634 we _ be in > » i z yh as i (00) Wf ur. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, there are no further matters that would require a vote by the committee. There are several matters of information shat might be appropriate to draw to the committee's attention. The first is an informational matter. Mr. Ortez appeared before the Kennedy Subcommittee this week and he is now being held by the Upneted Spates Marshals. - __ ‘ Mr. Fithian expressed some interest in perhaps pursuing further investigation with him. If we were to do that, we would have to keep him here for a while. Our own recommen- dation is that we not pursue Mr. Ortez at least at this time until we have gotten further information back from the Cuban government. ° I didn't: want to say anything to the Marshals about taking him back or not taking him back until I brought it up to the committee's attention, and really unless I hear an expression from. the committee now as a whole that they would want to take some action with him now as opposed to later, t think it would be appropriate for us to release him. I would say that euphemistically since he is serving a:'208vear term for airplane hijacking and it is doubtful that he is going to go anywhere, but nonetheless he will be available to the committee really on command from here on out. Chairman Stokes.” I would think that that explanation ought to suffice, and as long as he is available to the ALBERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC. | H { if | { |
20024 (202) SS5u-2345 Cc, dD, ALEC TON, REPORTERS BUTLDTNG , Ss... JINN PH STREET, Docld: 322766634 nw coy COTY “a Oo oo oo Ce] ae oO nn) om wa in 10 committee 7 Mr. Fithian will take note a there should be no problem. GD) ur. Blakey. The next point which is again one of information, the committee had voted to certify to the floor Powell , Mr. Bask for contempt. During the recess we forwarded a letter to the Speaker bringing this matter to his attention. The committee should be made aware of the fact that the Speaker suggested that since the recess is so short that this matter be brought to the floor and it is my understanding that the dnairman will pring the matter to the floor if not next week the first part of the following week. ‘The committee should be informed of that. The next matter is a delicate one; it is a continuation of the conversation the committee had several days ago and it deals with the possibility that Mr. Lane might represent the entire Ray family and other people and that in that represen-~ tation he might attempt to orchestrate the testimony before ‘the committee. As the facts are developing, they do not appear to be as sinister as we thought they might have been. We have now learned that Mr. Lane will not represent John Ray. We have also learned that Mr. Lane will not repre- sent Carol Pepper. So what was looking like it was going to be very sinister is currently not looking that way at all and perhaps this cup is passing in front of us. The source of our information we had hoped would be ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. i i
(202) S5"-2345 20024 N.C, TON, ~ a WAS TET EC REPORTERS BULLDING, Ve. s 200 7TH STREET, FI » e VP \ A a Su Cry > DoclId: 322766634 nm — ces) oo & 7 hey a i). i aro oop 1 no “~ Wwe in 10 mature today and a positive recommendation could be made to the committee. It now looks like the conversations between Mr. Lane and the various witnesses will not take place until this weekend and consequently the staff will not be in a position to make a firm recommendation to the committee that it take some action until next week. This conversation or this information is brought to your attention so that you could be fully apprised of the progress. We remain suspi- cious of the circumstances. We are perhaps less convinced that they are imminent. t WP x would also draw to the committee's attention that. Mr. Lane will be appearing representing witnesses next week and ‘it would be appropriate at that time to begin some negotiations ‘ : | with him for at least one more trip to flush him out and to see James Earl Ray before a final decision would be made by the committee whether Mr. Ray should be brought to an execu- tive session or brought only to the public sessions sometime this summer. I, of course, welcome any suggestions from the committes on those negotiations. ‘Hearing none, I would at least begin to talk with Mr. Lane if that is possible on Monday or Tuesday in reference to making one more trip to flush nim out, perhaps including in the contingent action one or more members of the committee to K ALDERSON RESORTING COMPANY, INC. 11 ender a certain degree of solemnity since it will probably be | |.
il — the final trip that it occasions. I think the details of © 2 | that can be left to the negotiations next week. | oO It is not clear that he would permit anyone to come in 4- but certainly we should make every effort to keep the lines | a open with Mr. Lane and certainly make every effort to talk N.C. 20024 “3S ay o Ne Oo to James Earl Ray until it is closed by the other side and (202) S5u-2345 a certainly not foreclosed by the committee. hairman Stokes. Mr. Edgar. £ = = Mr. Edgar. _ Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to indicate my support for trying to get yourself or some other PHIHGTON, member of the congressional delegation here to participate in that last final cross examination because we don't have any ry ws ~~ “se us nw guarantee as to what events may transpire with James Earl Ray | { | ; oon. and I think it is important for us to get some sense from our | own membership as to some of his answers to the specific | | 's | question. I also think it would elevate discussion from the staff level that we have had on several occasions to moving | | | | - | to the point where the committee has to deal with it direct. | Chairman Stokes. Do any other members have any comments? | : | Jon 7TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS HUTLDTNG, WA | } i co, zc | Mr, McKinney. ‘Ghebsariss The only question I wemke have, is! _, this | vas Is | | — *' what would you do under the conditions that Lane orches- oa Mr. Blakey. Well, the limit that we face, Mr. McKinney, | is that basically we have a one witness situation, one person Wo ta is telling us what is going on, and four or five people are fl ; - i © AL BERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. . Docld: 3277666584 Page 12
12 involved on the other side and so we have a conflict of | testimony between one witness and Lane and the other people. qe That is not in prosecutive terms a very good case. Our rules ade will not permit us to do what a prosecutor would normally do $ z 5 | in this situation; that is, wire the informant for sound, put - 6 | a tape recorder on him. a | x | F whe remady that we would have would be if Mr. Lane is in | S 7 fact not given simple advice but orchestrating testimony, that! 5 , : would amount to an obstruction of a congressional invest tigation 2 | | = i0 | which is a Federal felony. Tf the evidence that comes to our | = | attention is sufficiently strong to believe that that is what a . ‘2 | he is doing, one option that would be available to the commit- | tee would be. to bring this to the attention of the Attorney > | Gene ral and the Attorney General could perely, consistent. with the law of ethics and the general morality, be involved at | least to the extent of wiring the informant for sound and | | sathering the evidence for the purposes of a criminal prose- This would atleast leave the committee in the posture of ' 300 7¢H STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUTLDING, WA incident to a criminal investigation pursued by the Department. \ w ho +.) | a prete accurately what happened even though we learned that ese i / There are obvious reasons why that should not be done. One of | 1 | them is that the Department of Justice is the subject of this nw nh investigation and it seems somewhat ironic that they should be 1 day ‘brought in as a participant in the investigation. tis a hard qo. ‘Docld: 322766654 Page’ 13 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
Ww a | a - i ™ i wo , | wi fo} -~ 1 | c - a 7 th | = i ™ Ford . Lonny cS) i a . eo! eS Y i c ’ i z= 10 | S i = i a if So — 4 H a io = i @ 2s = | Sig | 5 | = i eS - | S45 if = oe OE = is 4 en | n 17 * i Ss f3] A = 19 =~ cf A Psy 20 | | Vg . hs pf 22: e <<) ie | HH 24 4 fy as } as t i Docld: 32266684 Page i that you might. want to bring up. | here. 13 choice and I would hope that the suspicions we have of what | Mr. Lane's conduct is turn out to be unfounded. I would rather believe him to be an ethical and a lawful law abiding person and if we cannot get evidence warranting serious action on the) part of the committse indicating the contrary, then I suspect | we will not have to face the decision of whether to bring the Department of Justice into it. . ; . | G there was only one other, issue that I thought that the committee might want at this time to be briefed on and that | is the status of the Cuban trip. When I noticed the people who were here, I see that several of you have already been briefed on the Cuba trip or have already gone and so I am not | necessarily of a mind to belabor a point that you are already | familiar with. If Mr. Ford or Mr. McKinney would want a - | private briefing later, it would not necessarily have to be ! \ on the record. : Mr. McKinney. Yes. —_ = | . ! Mr. Blakey. I would have at this time no further matters | | to bring before the committee. I obviously am open to any | $ questions about the status of the investigation or other issue | ’ Mr. Ford. Mr. Chairman, I do have an issue I would like to bring up before the committee while the chief counsel is ! 1 i | | | t | i Earlier this week one of the staff people with the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. i 14
C. 20024 €202) S5%-2345 p, TON, a HAS UT HC ‘ REPORTERS BUELDT NG, Jv. s 300 7TH STREET, Docld: 322766684 - da dan ee we re ee ee ee ee ws a i Ney an Page “not privy to the information of this committee at all and I business that day. 14 ! committee made contact with one of my staff persons in my | office and certain innuendos were made about a report'on Ed | Redditt that something had leaked from my office to one of the networks there in my district, a national network, I am not | sure which one. | . i G I do want the committee to know that my staff persons arg | thought that maybe the staff person should have made contact : with me personally and asked whether or not the information | got out of my office pertaining to the statement that Ed Redditt had made before the committee on the King assassina- tion. I was not aware of the statement at the close of ‘T was there all during the early afternoon session. I left to catch a plane. That weekend while I was home in Memphis, Ed Redditt and ons of the networks locally .in my district made contact with me about two matters, one: relating | to whether or not I would make a motion before the full. committee to remove the earlier statements that he had made before he came back and apologized to me and I guess at that point a true statement. But the television station also called me in regard to one of the staff people that I questioned on that particular Gay about an incident that happened in Memphis while he was down investigating the King assassination. I told him that me couse | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. . 15
15 I would not give him any information and that was it, but | | y - | © 2 | when the staff person called on my staff a certain not . 1 2 | allegations but certain statements were made. | . . | @ 4 | . Dr just want for the record to say that in the future I = 5 | would hope that the committee would make contact with me , a 6 | inasmuch as I have kept this information from my staff and | | on. | a | g 7 any information at all that would come from the office would & 3 | certainly come from me. Giving an impression to my staff ~ ! | 3 9 | people that I am dishonest or something, I would hops that in = 0] the fugure we would try to correct that, talk with me directly: ¢ = 1] about it rather than the innuendos here and there as to what a = Mr. Blakey. Mr. Ford, I obviously regret any implication — _— | | | was said. | that was carried by anything the staff did. As I am sure you are aware, the matter of how that memorandum leaked is a REPORTERS BUTLDTING, Wo ' 1s | sérious concern to the committse 4 certainly the committee “. 7 | taff. It has already affected our ability to conduct the = | investigation in Memphis. Our witnesses have told our inves- a _— = 7 tigators: "How can you guarantee me confidentiality? Look at e H 5 ® | shat napane to Ed Redditt." t q { Fortunately that has not made the papers in Washington yet and to our knowledge the Federal investigative agencies we are dealing with. The FBI and the CIA are probably not yet aware that that leaked although we have been in an ho 1 way extremely delicate process and are negotiating with them for 3 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. : Docld: 32727666584 Page 16
16 release to the committse of classified and other information \ ~ pes) over hers, we won't get it. So this is a very serious matter 4- and it is one’ that I-really was not fully prepared to discuss 5 | and if they were of the impression that it would be leaked | . | | w H = 34 today. * i = . : * ‘ “a 5 | I have directed the people in Memphis to gather the i g ~ 7 | maximum information they can about what was said and what 3 Z was done there by the news media and then we are in the ra "| process now of trying to ascertain everybody who had access c , i \ = 0 | to that memo. The memo was drafted for the entire committee. | g Ji . : . | = (': | It apparently was not given to the entire committee so there ~ ‘23 were a limited number of copies. As soon as we have prepared | o tt | = "Y . : — tm q : . . ° e @ a ois i an analysis as best we can of everything that happened, it a + | will be appropriate to bring it back to the committee for Pas i I. g 13 | whatever the committee wants to do. = 16 | ; . : ; : : i Chairman Stokes. Okay. Anything further? ren . “0M Mr. Blakey. No, sir. = “| Mr. Preyer. Mr. Chairman, I was about to make my final A = 2 | : : a , : = 1 motion. Seeing the condition of the gentleman on my right . | oa aS tb {laughter} , I move we adjourn. ; KES ; Mr. Dodd. I will second that motion, I'll tell you. I'm Es a | | | | : @ yA TW tired. . a | i Chairman Stokes. The meeting is then adjourned subject " aan to the call of the Chair. 2505 fwhereupon, at 5:34 p.m. the committee adjourned.} tt 7 - ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. i Docld:32266684 Page 17