180-10131-10324 JFK Agsassination System Date: 10/19/20 Identification Form Agency Information HSCA AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : 180-1013 1-10324 RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY AGENCY FILE NUMBER: 014724 Document Information ORIGINATOR: HSCA FROM: NOSENKO, YURI TO: TITLE: TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO DATE: 06/20/1978 PAGES: 141 SUBJECTS : CIA, METHODOLOGY KGB, FILES KGB, METHODOLOGY MCMILLAN, PRISCILLA JOHNSON SOLIE, BRUCE NOSENKO, YURI, TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD, DEFECTION TO RUSSIA MEXICO CITY DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION: — Top Secret RESTRICTIONS: Consulted CURRENT STATUS: = Withhold DATE OF LASTREVIEW: 08/21/1993 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Folder 2 of 2. Box 4 v9.1 BY 50955 Bocld: 32277209 Page 1
PAGE Received — ll 4 32 49 Marked 10 wn] ; uf at Ey| | RI acst aay Ea] ogi. _ al ol Be aL SE ol 3 | Resumed Page 2? ' TESTIMONY OF !YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO i i i q 4 | | i H | | ! { i | i | i i ~~ od 9 ag wey so La oO uP OQ ! | i | t t { | { t | i | ! Docld: 32277209 HW 50955
“THOMAS,’srs. cet ere amen wens sua pag tema meee eee te tee ee ee ores ee eee arama atemarn ie SEs n mene Mie mRCRETE etn eR Tet nine nem ee Me 9 rath Ae ween enten fe t o  e 7 xretype smnp i | ty EXECUTIVE SESSION ad --- ry 34 Tuesday,: June 20,/°1978 25 | : i s U.S. House of Representatives, : i 7 Select Committee on Assassinations i { ‘ ; i Subcommittee on the Assassination 3 | .of John F. Kennedy : | Washington, D. C. v i . d - 1 | The Committee met, pursuant to recess, at 6:20 o'clock . ip.m., in Room. 1-D, Headquarters, Central Intelligence Agency, ca mS me ; _ iLangley, Virginia, the Honorable Louis Stokes (Chairman of an i ae 1 ithe Committee) presiding. roa i . . A ; ‘ 2 if ., | Present: Representatives Stokes, Preyer, Burke, Fithian, | “Devine and Sawyer. = Also present: G. R. Blakey, G. Cornwell, M. Goldsmith, “oR. Morrison, E. Berning, M. Jackson, J. Smith, K. Klein and The Chairman. The Committee will come to order. zt i At this time the Committee will resume its sitting. We. | : . | | 22 fare.still in executive session by virtue of the resolution 7 “3 adopted by the Committee this past evening. 4 \ ane il Loo ; . . 7 | ame At this time the Chair will recognize Mr. Blakey. | | rn | ae it Mr. Blakey. Off the record. | ; a — i | | | E eo 8 | & 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 3 :
i Vy ; d 4 | 3 | | 4 | i 6 ‘Sitting and at this time the witness, Yuri Nosenko, is back before the Committee once again. -Mr. Nosenko, I admonish you that you are still under the a. F CP aR E ™ Oe OGURA b. OF (Discussion off the record.) The: Chairman. Anything further? Bring the witness in. rf peeeeteemnceenree te deans ete nec t re COE |) SCO ~ Let the record reflect that the Committee has resumed it a 3 | oath that you took last night. 9 TESTIMONY OF YURI IVANOVICH NOSENKO ~~ Resumed 10 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, Sir.. . ni | _ ‘The Chairman. And at this time, then, the Committee wil 12 | recognize the counsel for the Committee, Mr. Klein: 13 Mr. Klein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | Good evening. 7 Mr. Nosenko. Good evening, sir. 7 Mr. Klein. You told us that after the assassination ? you had an opportunity to be present when Oswald's file. was 3 | brought from Minsk, is that right? | i Mr. Nosenko. Absolutely right. | oe - | Mr. Klein. pid you have an opportunity to read the entite oan file at that time? 7 7 “Mr. Nosenko. -No, sir. [ ee al “Mr. Klein. How much of the file did you read? : ay Mr. Nosenko. It was simply Looking, page by page, first. a “= \ part of the first volume. | oo . | 0955 . Docld: 32277209 Page 4 it
oo ao. | | | | | | | volume, page by page?. took Department of the Second Chief Directorate. the summary that the First Department prepared? Mr. Klein. You went through the first part of the first Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. Mr. Klein. Did you go through any’ of the other volumes? Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. | Mr. Klein. You told us that an officer named Matveev the file away. to prepare a summary? Mr. Nosenko. Right. Mr. Klein. Do you know who wrote that summary? Mr. Nosenko. The summary was written by the First Mr. Klein. Do you know who, in particular? Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I do not know. Mr. Klein. And did you ever have an opportunity to read Mr. Nosenko. No, sir; I didn't see it. Mr. Klein. The Russian word "spravka", does that mean -~ Mr. Nosenko. Is summary, right. 4 Mr. Klein. And why were you not able to read the summary that they wrote? Department. I was working in the Seventh Department. a 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page. 5 . | ; Mr. Nosenko. Well,. the file was taken in the First | ! Mr. Klein. Did you make any attempt to read it? . Mr. Nosenko. No. Mr. Klein. Was it at all unusual that with all. your weg ae | ft ay a gy a. ? He teh A dhs Ge
Spree deen WL a ei eet cba Peace Soe al ca oe | | ‘read that file? | RO Loe) | Mr. Nosenko. It was the decision of the Chief of the 4 . Second Chief Directorate, given big importance to this questign, ss bo | that a resume will be prepared. by the most prestigious depart- - , | ment, American Department, and that is why we couldn't even agk. : 7 Mr. Klein. You didn't even ask to see it?» ao : a | Mr. Nosenko. No. | : | 7 Mr. Klein. So it was not unusual that you were not | | 10 I atrowea ‘to see it? i‘ i 7 me ; 7 | Mr. Nosenko. No, it was not unusual. - 12 | Mr. Klein. You have testified before this Committee that | | 13 | the KGB did not allow Lee Harvey Oswald to defect because he | i ig | wae uninteresting. You have testified the KGB did not even spdak 15 ito Lee Harvey Oswald because he was uninteresting: and that You ae i 5 ideckdedHe was not interesting without speaking to him. ! a _Do you know what year Lee Harvey oswald came to the soviet 12 [onion? of Mr. Nosenko. 1959. it . 20° Mr. Klein. In 1959, approximately how many Americans 21 hianted to defect to the Soviet Union or requested permission t ~ 3 Mr. Nosenko. There was a defectionist, I remember ,. one | my * lot the employees, one of the workers, who was helping to or- | i ; -- iganize the American Exhibition in Moscow, Mr. Webster. | ence en nee ne a Bo i 74 h q 50955 Doctd: 32277209 Page 6
50955 rethsths Suaielie ants Sind eo SESae cutee ibe AT sai aceon eee AS Docld: hey, a Mr. Klein. Without giving particular names, how many | * | Americans would you say asked permission to defect in 1959? | : What. would the number be? "| Mr. Nosenko. These two were known to me ~~ Oswald and 5 | | | Webster. o Mr. Klein. From 1955 to 1960, what would be your best ‘ estimate as to how many Americans asked permission to defect | i the Soviet Union? ‘ Mr. Nosenko. As far as I heard, there I think was one. | oty. i | | - Mr. Klein. One other, meaning three altogether. 24 oO . ; Mr. Nosenko. One besides Oswald and Webster, what I. 13 | i know. 1 | a Mr. Klein. Three? Mr. Nosenko.” T hree. ». Mr. Klein. | down because he was uninteresting? iff —~ oo wi RET “Of the three, was Oswald the only one turned . “Mr. Nosenko. Right... | a Mr. Klein. Do you know any other defector who was ever |_| formed “dow because he was uninteresting? 21-1] : ae abe Mr. Nosenko. No. Allow me to telly | as you have seen, and you told yourselv Ihow many Americans are defected. It is a very rare occasion -a ne Ixce prefers defection when they are planning, they want, these, | types of defectors, they like and invite those people “who can | os ewe - . ; ; ' 7 FRO CLARET 0 BRB oul a fa H 32277209 Page Fe Te eae oe EERE he BA nicest ds aed GAR tele Mad CRS parte heen ge d Sr,
give them certain information which is 5 valuable. ee | : . . Mr. Klein. Do you recall “telling this Committee yesterday that -up until 1960 the Seventh Department was recruiting Gt} ‘Yeft and’-right? da | ¢ | | _Mr. Nosenko. Absolutely right. j Mr. Klein. And that you recruited a woman in Utah. who was -- va-*> Mr. Nosenko, CL, “simply had .given example of this recruit- 7: i 5 Ment which took place up to 1960. When Seventh Department was 2 - | recruitag and giving files to the Intelligence Service, rixst| | 10 | Chief Directorate, not asking them before, is it person will ke, | 7 | Pe for: them valuable or not. : ; a Mix. Klein. And that KGB officers were getting. bonus : e 13 and promotions when they induced people to recruit? | 2 na “a i. "Mr .Nosenko. Right. | | is : Mr. Klein. And despite that, Lee Harvey Oswald, when | j i 1G he asked to defect, you turned him down without even speaking! to : i ; 7 him, to find out if he had any information; is that right? ! ig 7 Mr. Nosenko. Sir, we had quite a few recruitments in 158, iF a very big. amount of them in '59 very interesting, much, a “ a co _ ce 20 much. more interesting -- professors “and teachers ~~ and | | a | even was a COnOp:” from. CIA: we. had- quite a few recruitnents; | 22°! and Oswald.wai nothing on\'this base, on this foundation. | i So Do | j ~ 3 Mr. Klein. Would the’ KGB have any interest in an | po i a : re | American student? : a as . Mr. Nosenko. As I tora you yesterday, KGB interested in} Becidag hae TR x i i — . . . a en ae 7 te — | . 1
i Fo ; | students, but‘particutariy ‘those students who are studying | . | | “the Russian Language, Russian ‘history, Russian economy. | | Mr. Klein. And would they have any interest in an | ae ; | American who had strong anti-American views and who was a me | professed Marxist? Would they have any interest in that “ f | kind of person? | | Mr. Nosenko. Here were are coming to a very interesting! | and sensitive question. From mid-1950, by the order of | Central Committee Communist Party, Soviet Union, KGB was 0 prohibited to make any approachment and recruitment of af Members of the Communist Party of the West. - Mr. Klein. I am not asking about a member of the a RS | Communist Party. ! ds : a | Mr. Nosenko. Your question is, and if he. is some type : | of Marxist here, the question maybe he is possibly a member | | of Communist cParty, and to check it for KGB very difficult | if he is a member of ‘Communist Party or not of his country. ia Mr. Klein. Would they ask him if he is a member of | 19 | the Communist Party?» ! fi ; | . Would they check it? bo a Mr. Nosenko. No, they would not ask him. . | 2 | Mr. Klein. They wouldn't ask him? | i . “3 Mr. Nosenko. No. : =| Mr. Klein. Would the Soviet Union be interested in | eae f someone who was in the military and worked with radar equipment?
. 7 i: ie Mr. Nosenko. It depends. If he was corporal, private, is no big interest. jIf he was officer, maybe they would be | RO interested. “ a 3) Mr. Klein. The |fact that he worked with the equipment is | | | in Mr. Nosenko. No, sir; it is not enough because they . . { had sources. i | F } | wouldn't be enough; they would want to know what his rank wasP | rer Mr. Klein. And in 1959 would the Soviet Union. have been ; | ; ; ; J interested in someone who served as a radar operator on an air | | | a base where U-2s took off and landed? : ay | Mr. Nosenko. . Yes, sir; it would be very interested. 7 1 | ME « Klein. It is your testimony that Lee Harvey Oswala,|” a 3 who was a student, who was a professed Marxist, who had “ ; | | es ll Mr. Nosenio. Students? I never heard that he was a \ | 1s student. | i | 1 | Mr. Klein. -- who had been a radar operator and had : nana | ol worked on a base from which U-2 airplanes took off and | te : 1s | landed, that he. wasn't even interesting enough for the KGB f 19 to speak to him, to find out if he knew any of this informatibn? | 2 | Me. Nosenko.2 Mriokleing Iounderstandayouns positions: ont} butswetididn't “know: thato heohadnany!-connecti on with Ur2a% Le 7 2a | flightsin..That is one thing.: 4 ‘ ° “ ' - 3 | And -if you, Mr. Klein, are basing on what was written by, 24) Mr. Epstein in the.book, it is a little bit from the air | i | ) ! 25 ; taken ideas. Mr. Epstein even telling that how important | i oo ; 4 | PA Py | iH a Be : 530955 Doclda: 32277209 Page 16 —
8 3 * d % a a o TOP SECRET for KGB to know about such base -- that’ base. - “We knew it in '50's when I worked in GRU at the Navy, in 1950, '51, '52. Ww We knew every base and in Japan, at this Atsugi Base, and we a knew what kind of airplanes had been. We didn't know about. U-2, no. Sure, it is very interesting, but when Oswald on applied, requested to stay in the Soviet Union, ,we didn't kno -a word about his knowledge, anything concerning U-2 flights. ‘Mr. Klein. And you didn't ask him if he had any kind of information about that when he wanted to defect, is that correct? Mr. Nosenko. No. on. Mr. Klein. And you told us that one reason that no one was working on Oswald was because all of your people were é od correct? ct mene ren tenet tet nr Lt pert ea atte ee i cee nnentonnnns “es : -, - .Mr. Nosenko. , Yes, sir. Not only American. Exhibition, concentrating on the American Exhibition in 1959, is that | there were other ‘tourists and among them were interesting ‘targets, very interesting targets. 12 | 19 ff Mr. Klein. You told us yesterday that things didn't -- a 20 | Mr. Nosenko. I can explain you why, because an American i | Exhibition in Moscow was by the information which’ KGB had, | , 7 a: 49 | I don't know how much it's right, how much it's wrong, but it ; | was suspected quite a number of people from American intelli- Hoo, . : So ' 2 | gence community who were working on American Exhibition in as ; Moscow, and when the work is going on against such targets, | | corinne i §0955 Docld:32277209 Page 11
reuse abel Sa Gib dt  odit et OT ig i A en raat a ea f 1 af i . i iz . it is not one officer, it is a big’ amount of people involved | : bd an i | ; bes, 2 on each case, because it is very serious target. 3 i Mr. Klein. Do you know what date Lee Harvey Oswald 4 : “ . i . Ho i _ || came to the Soviet Union? | ~ Mr. Nosenko.=.No, sir, I do not. i aoe Mr.Klein. Mr. Chairman, I would ask that this renee coer on 7 : 7 ” T eat , ' | i . | document be marked for identification and shown to the wees : 4. The Chairman. , Without objection. | i ian . 9 | (The document referred to was | : i 16 marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-2 | "| for identification.) rv Mr. Klein. ‘Looking at this document -- : al Mr. Nosenko. Right. | i ; i is | The Chairman. Did counsel want to identify for the | is record how the document has been. marked? | 16 The Clerk. JFK-F-2. — 7 nn ae a | Mr. Klein. Looking at this document, does it say on thel, i3 | tor "Visa and Registration Office, Interior Department, | | 49. Executive. Committee of the Moscow City Council"? ey) 7 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. | a Mr. Klein. Do you recognize ‘that type of document? | al Mr. Nosenko. Yes. It is from Department of giving Visas an | 3 and Registrations, which is working under auspices of pirectorate 4) of internal Affairs of Moswcow City.” : : Fa ! Mr. Klein. And does this appear to be an authentic | | i. 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 12 ;
Wieden cain jaa ack! Vue SEGA a | document, an authentic copy of the document? | Mr. Nosenko. Sure. fa} ; Mr. Klein. Looking at Number 8, does it say what da date Lee Harvey Oswald came to the Soviet Union for the first ~ time? Mr. Nosenko. October, 1959. Mr. Klein. October what? “ead Mr. Nosenko. October 16, 1959. Mr. Klein. I would ask that this document be marked for! identification, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Without objection. peer acreage ne | ene ante ei en nen NE en le GeO! eA AERO = er At eee RA ne PT Or Would the clerk indicate for the record? The Clerk. JFK-F-3, Mr. Chairman. (The document referred to was SR aoe marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-3 so ant Oo for identification.) Mr. Klein. Looking at the newspaper article clipping, o the right hand side, with the heading "U.S. Fair in Soviet Jammed at: Close," do you see that? Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. pe nnn ac a nn Mr. Klein. And what is the date of that story? ie) = 46 a a Mr. Nosenko. The date is September 4. od ~ i Mr. Klein. Are you aware of the fact that the Ame rican' “ Exhibition ended on September 4, more than a month before af : Oswald came to the Soviet Union? 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page i3
ba 2) : ; 3 it ‘S 4 : a 20 : 4 : * 4 ¢ BDocld: 32277209 Page i4 —- . ' i t Americans who were working for this Exhibition left Moscow. Mr. Nosenko. (Mr. “reins 3 would like you to ask when Mr. Klein. TIjwill ask you another question. | | | | . oo, Yesterday, when I asked, you if things got back to © . normal once the fair ended, Aid you say yes? Mr. Nosenko. No, till they were leave the Soviet | Union. No. They are the same targets. Okay, you are right, | cae is closed September 4th, but does it change the importancb if of these people against whom KGB was. working? They were still in: Moscow. Mr. Klein. Do you recall yesterday my asking you, did things in your department get back to normal: once the fair’ ended, and do you recall saying yes? “Mr. Nosenko. Well, I meaning fair ended when left all the people involved in work on American Exhibition, Americans when they Left, and they were staying quite a long time 7 | after it was closed. It was closed for visits for Soviet citizens, but. it took quite a time for them to leave. Mr. Klein. You also testified yesterday that Lee Harvey, Oswald was allowed to “stay in the Soviet Union after he said: that he was. going to Kall himself Lt they sent him home. “You ‘told us that’ he slashed his wrists and two psychiatrists | exariined nim and both found him mentally unstable. | r.-Nosenko. | Right. cee nent cere i ae ein lane Re ae Pt 2 NNR Rats Remit eter ee Ln nn ener Oe Me Oe OS nema en wise tetera veteran set arn ete Mr. Klein. What was the point of having the two | i ! 1 | |
a she es RTE SSS th eee ! t : | psychiatrists examine, him? ' 4 4 4 4 od oo - — ; Mr. Nosenko. ‘I think! simply to be assured that it was 5 poe found decision, concerning this person. | Two independent. 4 | Mr. Klein. After they examined him, the decision was i. made to let him stay; is that correct? Mr. Nosenko. — Tt is not because of the examination ia SERERAD co LaPaaten obese he was allowed to stay, Mr. Klein. You aré a little bit mixin o ment had come to the conclusion if this person will kill ¥ things. He was allowed to stay because KGB and Soviet vovern | : 9 10 himself it will bereaction in / newspapers, which can in ‘any way : 1 hurt the starting, the warming of Soviet~American relations. ' ry -Mr. Klein. The Soviets were worried he would kill himself 13 in the Soviet Union? id r. Nosenko. Right, if they would not allow him to 15 stay. “ - | Mr. Klein. Could the KGB have taken him and put him on ‘the next plane out, of “Russia and thereby ended their whole problem with Lee ‘Harvey Oswald? ° 19 Mr. Nosenko. , Tt is a very sensitive question. He can 36 jump out of car. Tf he: decided, $f he is mentally unstable, 2) you don' te: know what, he. will do. Me. Klein. Do you think the KGB aidn' te do that because, “| me they were worried he might. jump out of the car or do’ “somethin 4 | | _ an eas - oo aan moe I ““y like that? .. es - pT 4 aan Mr. Nosenko. “Simply.a mentally unstable person, they I: : H oy Ee ST oe 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 1% -
0955 a ron 1 tee him: 3D SS, Docld: 32277209 their hands, not by “KGB. Page 16 _ Mr. Klein. Union? Mr. Nosenko. Mr. They would rather keep him in the Soviet - i t ; i Noy Klein; Communist Party. | Mir. Kleine. to this Committee Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Klein. back to America? Mr..Nosenko. “decide. Mr. Klein. Going by the facts as you have told them Yes, t | i of Foreign Trade reported to the Soviet Government. ‘Embassy and told them he is an American, KGB. washed their hands. res By bAET didn't int so weaken on oy tan acti i o- ‘ they would rather prefer they washed they are not making decision, Sir. Could he have been brought to the UL ‘Ss. we don't want him"? > Mr. Nosenko. it wasn't done. “y4 KGB. vn, Soviet Union decisions are made by the Central Committee Of the Coftiriunist Party, and General Secretary and Politburo, "KGB a servant of the Politburo and Central Commi ~~ why wasn't he put on a plane and sent Then from Intouri: it was given information Ministry of Foreign Trade; Ministry As I sai I assumed the Chairman was surely asked; “he told his opinion of the KGB, and up to the Soviet Government how they would "You take care of Tt can be done, sure. It can be done, t we ee oe secre steers scenennemnenneeneleel harass en ‘ : i ' \ t ij 3 “4 t L i ae aan} i. a i i a
15 Mr. Klein. Instead -théy selected to allow him to stay indefinitely in the Soviet Union and they have to worry about a that correct? | | | : | | | him every single day, what an unstable American would do, is i Mr. Nosenko. They didn't allow, KGB didn't allow. Soviet un government allowed. Mr. Klein. The facts as you have testified to them are that the KGB allowed this mentally unstable person to stay | \ | in Russia, and they sent him to Minsk to.live and work ina | radio factory. Then the KGB allowed this mentally unstable bo. oe, . . {| individual to marry a Soviet woman, and then this mentally | unstable individual was allowed to join a hunting club where he had access to a gun. = worked in the KGB where a mentally unstable person was treated in thiskind of ‘manner? | Mr. Nosenko. I told you I do not know any other cases of mentally unstable, excluding one code clerk, American, was also mentally ill; he was delivered in Soviet Union. I heard | it. I never have worked with him, I never have. seen him. 1 And the thing is, I am sorry,. but you are putting and stressi g a number of questioning, and it sounds so peculiar. “What doe it mean, KGB allow him to marry? | 4 { i | é | i | | | | Can you think of any other cases in all the time you | } | | | | 4 | Mr. Klein, in the Soviet Union there is by degree of | i Presidium of Supreme Soviet U.S.S.R. a law allowing marriage of t i t q 4 i : H | . a | t H i ! i We 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 17
; j q i a y i i ‘| 4 cl é 4 i 30955 — 2 aa . oa Ft .o | | | | | | : | ! _Docld: 32277209 _ Page 18 a ing seeing classified material. In these cases, KGB will try Soviet citizens. with foreign. A “foreigner can marry a Soviet} citizen, by the law. There is not a thing that KGB can in an way try not to give, not to make it possible, but this is in “Some sensitive place, let's say, in missiles, rocket | | cases when the person who is marrying a foreigner worked in |- industry production, was in process of -any place of his work to put different type of fences. But it is unlawful. In accordance with Soviet law, marriage is allowed; he doesn't need to ask permission of Soviet Government or anyone. And hi wife, Marina, wasn't working in any place which was sensitive! from the point of view of Soviet security. | Mentally unstable it doesn't mean that he is raving mad; it iS‘mentally unstable. Mr. Klein. You testified that not only was Oswald not the decision was made to allow him to remain in the Soviet Union, still nobody from the KGB spoke to him, is that correct? Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. Mr. Klein. You also tetified to the extensive resources! that were devoted to put physical and technical surveillance on Oswald. You told us the men involved, the time involved, ‘the facilities involved? | | | | | spoken to when he first said he wanted to defect but even aa | | | | | { | 1 | | { Mr. Nosenko. Right. Mr. Klein. Do you find great contradiction --
an ose on % Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. Mr. Klein. -= in the fact that, on the one hand, you put all these resources into following Oswald around,. trying see who he talked to and what he does and, on the other hand, you don't even have a. person go and talk to him and ask him, "Tell us your background; tell us about yourself." | Is.there any contradiction? - Mr. Nosenko. Even in the United States, yes, sure, for you, for me just now American citizens, yes, sure, but there, no. Mr. Klein. They don't talk to people there? Mr. Nosenko. They can talk and cannot to talk, but I don't see contradiction there. ‘Anyone, any foreigner who. wil be staying, even if this defector not on his own, but, let's , to defect, he still will be watched put on Oswald, not less. = Mr. Klein. You talk sabout their society is different than 5 ours.” 1g it unusual that. they allow an American to defect and live there without ever questioning him, to ask him ifh is’ an intelligence agent? | i Mr. Nosenko% on the “contrary, no doubt, Iet's ‘say hee was intelligence agent, what he ‘willitellothem that he was — vceenc ene meee cn cnet ne a) ee i nn fp ~ sent with mission as intelligence. agent? Why to scare him? Let him live how he wants. We will be watching him. - He
aot will show by his behavior, by ‘his action. KRG . your testimony? Mr. Nosenko. In this case they didn't speak with him da: @ a arty : . ‘ f because he didn't present intex % idem ED Rate te” he was mentally. unstable. oo Sad two. psychiatrists who examined Lee Harvey Oswald at the hospital after he cut his wrist, is that. correct? Mr. Nosenko. Right. ‘Mr. Klein. Ydu said both found him mentally unstable? eh RS ai a Sa: Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. Mr. Klein. You told us in geat detail how this 3 &. id | decision was made to have these psychiatrists éxamine him. 1S | I would ask thatithis document be marked for . Me identification. 7 | The Chairman. ‘The clerk will identify for the record | 18) the number appearing on the document. 3 | The Clerk. “It will be JFK-F-4. | | (The document referred to was” a | marked as JFK Exhibit No. F-4 oI for identification. ) 73 an Mr. Nosenko. ‘No, sir. I haven't seen it. 3 at =. W it i SE BY > ser > i _& i ey a ea Sw : awd A 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 70 ° ©. ; ; _ Mr. Klein. They purposely don't speak to him; is that ‘est for the KGB and because - ‘Mr. Klein... You.testified that you read the reports of | “Mr. Klein. Have you ever seen that document before? — Mr. Klein. Were ‘you aware that the Soviet.Government | ma i i i ‘ i 4 i | te. 1 1 | {
NG Docld: 32277209 provided Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. name on it? Mr. .Mr. _ Mr. “Mr. Mr. 28th. Mr. Mr. Mr. i why he was in the hospital? Mr. forearm. Mr. Oswald first came to the Soviet Union and cut his wrist? MY. remember. Mr. Page 21 certain documents to the Warren Commission in 1964? Nosenko. No, sir. I wasn't aware of this. Klein. Looking at that document in front of you ~~ Nosenko. Right. Klein. -- is that a hospital record? Nosenko. Oh, yes, sure. It is a hospital record. Klein. . And whose hospital record? Does it have a Nosenko. Yes, Sir... It is from Botkin Hospital. Klein. Whose name is it? Nosenko. Lee Harvey Oswald. Klein. Does it say what date he was admitted? Nosenko. Discharged, admitted 23rd, discharged Klein. What year is that? Nosenko. October of 1959. Klein. And does it have on the bottom the diagnosis Nosenko. Incised wound of one-third of the left Klein. And that date, October of 1959, is that when Nosenko. I cannot tell you dates, sir. I do not dete meeteeegtennmmen tine eee ramnsan ean wenn oe copies agen a nen ta eee mente neta Nena tnt Ltt ARN oe ike ee One Ye nae ener Re oe Sete Seren Sear Rt erat neers ent tae rit ree HO tne te ete teh ct Klein. You have in front of you the other document ain we { t i 5 i | 4 : i !
ite Ge ES ek Gel oh on MST ato wed Ped ee haa a | gpa y Sse Bey ca ; ae f | which told -- Number 8 -- what date he came to the Soviet Unipn. | Is that still there? se 2] . | oR Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. This is admittance to the hos- | Gc \ pital and dischargement. a | ' t . : Mr. Klein. . Number 8? : 2 | . a ‘oe po i Mr. Nosenko. Arrival, October 16. | | Mr. Klein. And the date on the hospital admittance is ‘ | 7 | nae date? | | Mr. Nosenko. ‘Twenty-third of October. cane , i i . a Mr. Klein. And would you turn to the hospital admittance i Wa ; a i . . i 1 form, the one I just gave you, to the third page, please? } yt . , hd ; | Mr. Nosenko. Yes. i f 12 | ‘ 1 Mr. Klein. And do you, see where it says "History of | ; po cy | Present Illness"? | : is | Mr. Nosenko. No, I don't see. | : Si: . i i 7 | 16 _ Mr. Klein. On the third page? : | H - . | nee . : 7 -' Mr. Nosenko. -I-have the third page. ; | - _ 1a -. Mr. Klein. It has Number 6 on the top of the page, bat | | a OO : 1g | it's the third page on the document. 20 | ' Mr. Nosenko. Oh, Number 6, History of Present Illness. | a1 | Yes. Just a second. | , 4 oS —— 39° Mr. Klein. Would you glance through that. and would you | ae ' - : 7 . | — - ae ; "3 | tell us if this is the hospital report from when Lee Harvey | | oe ; t a4 Oswald cut his wrist and was taken to Botkin Hospital? . i . . ; a 25° 4 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. | i : if + ea I: { . bs, Pa Te 32277209 _Page 22. po me na rgener es ie gmesentgt y
50955 ar 13 transferred to the Seventh Ward." a | Pee ap “21° Bel SEY Ae Md a ; | “Mr. Klein. | Now, would you turn to the next to the ‘Last: | | page. It has a 13 ‘on the right hand side. ~ 2. : 3 Do you see that page? ' : Mr’... Nosenko. ves, sire. | | r.Klein. The next to the last page. | / Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. | | : Mr. Klein. And do you see where it says, two-thirds | , | of the way to the bottom, "Psychiatric Department" snder inet :| Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. | af a Mr. Klein. Would you read what is said under that? 2 n Mr. Nosenko. "His mind is clear; perception is correct: | 2 | no hallucination or deliriums. He answers the questions | 3 legible and logically; he has a firm desire to remain in the | i | Soviet Union; no psychiatric symptoms were noted; the patient | [as not dangerous for other people; his condition permits him, | 6 | to stay in Psychiatric Department by an order of the Assistant ; i a7 | to the Chief PHysicians, Dr. Kornika. The patient is | a ‘Mr. Klein. Is there anything in there to indicate he 1s 29 hentally unstable? | it : | Mr. Nosenko. Here I do not sée. Mr. Klein. Does that . report, “indicate that she “was normal? 4d t | | | | i Mr. Nosenko. Here i do not see what I have seen. But. oo 4 a, ‘ | | ithis ‘you receive from ‘the ‘Soviet Government,» and if you think | ar . | | ” i : . ; “ res received the true ‘things; what was in file, “you are wrong, | i i i} i Becta: 232277209 “Page 23
i | 1 | Mr. Klein. 2 | Mr. Klein. And that document,..according::to you, is that 5 | not an authentic -copy?. 44 Mr. Nosenko. KGB can prepare you any document. Take | 5 | the material, or ask the doctors who are cooperating with KGB ; ] and they will prepare you any document. i , . + | Mr. Klein. .I -am not asking you what they can do. Are. 7 4 3 you testifying that this document is not authentic, it is not! ae Po , I “tne ‘document? | 5 ee Pept f 10 4+ Mr. Nosenko. this document | never was in ‘the file of ‘the! Ho , yy "1 1, KGB. i , 12 Le Mr..Klein. | SO = 43.4 Mr. Nosenko. This I testify. ty . : is Mr. Klein. -- it is your tetinony that the KGB. sent us| it. SO i is 4 a phony document? a i | | i 16 | Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. : { i V : Mr. Klein. You testified before this Committee that there oa was periodic!physical surveillance of Lee Harvey Oswald which, 9 i was ordered by Moscow, to be carried out in Minsk? | i 20 | Mr. Nosenko. Right. | a. | | aa | Mr. Klein. And you testified in detail about that, | a . i i | + : and you told us how the physical surveillance consisted of 4} “| following Oswald for a month ‘ox month and a. half at a time, ij a. | | , ; oo, 7 “i and there werea number of people that would be involved, is’ ae i. ae 7 “| that correct? i . ; ; 7 i Ryet oy Pr ee a ae fee. a | iat ae ag Pe a SF i ay te Me Riso Docld:32277209 | | | 7 : | | | Page 24
Perna NeE Det eee _$ oo nm dk ha, OO om ed an 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 25 / -his neighbors and associates, and not say anything about ca, if Mr. Nosenko. Right. Mr. Klein. It was a big operation? Mr. Nosenko. Big operation? No, it's not a big operation. there? Mr. Nosenko. It is not a big operation. It is routine. In KGB it is a routine, nothing serious. It's not an operation even. It's surveillance, it's not an operation. Mr. Klein.. And have you ever stated that the only cover-+ age of Oswald during his stay in Minsk consisted of periodic checks at his place of employment, inquiry of neighbors and. associates and review of his mail? Have you ever stated that was the only coverage of Oswald in Minsk? ~ Mr. Nosenko. I stated before, and I stated it to you yesterday, and I state now, that the order was given, and I have seen it -~ to cover him by surveillance periodical, to cover him by an agent watching in places of his living, place he is working, control over his correspondence and control of his telephone conversations. Mr. Klein. My question is, have you ever stated that the only coverage was checking at. his places of employment and periodic, physical surveillance? Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I cannot tell you what I stated. I was B & ie # ue | ei ere ie coer eee eer me eee see ce ee een ren ne gerne tee | | | : | Mr. Klein. There were a number of people involved, werer
1 for quite a big period of time, quite a few years, interrogated, ; y . ; . : . of _ (2) by hours, and in different types of conditions, including | 4 hostile conditions... | | | Mr. Klein. That‘was bythe CIA? | “A Co ae Mr. Nosenko. “Where they asked questions in such form. | 7 which later my answer will be interpreted in any way, however | pee want to interrogate us: | ! 3 i Mr. Klein. ‘That was by CIA? | ¥ | Mr. Nosenko. And I cannot tell you what I did say. I | i 10 cannot remember dates. You must understand, it's hundreds of | 1 | interrogations, hundreds. . ; 12 | Mr. Klein. This period that you are telling us about, 43 you were questioned by the CIA auring that period, is that | is correct? ! 1s Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sure. | —_ . ae | Mr. Klein. : Were you questioned. during that period by | v FBI? te an Mr. Nosenko.... I questioned by FBI in February, yes. | | 9 | Mr. Klein. At. this time I would ask that this document || on be marked for identification and shown to the witness. | | aa The Chairman. The clerk will indicate for the’ record | H BY the number appearing .onthe. document: oo | pot 7 The Clerk. Exhibit JPK-F-5. | “| | (The doctiment referred to was marked ~ i as JPK Exhibit No. F-5 for : , is tis S0955 Docld: 32277209  BRPage 26 ;
sa ade os Tee ence tine i ar : : Se 00L , identification.) ' a 4 | Me. Klein. 7 These hostile interrogations you just alluded ~ 3 to, did they lead you to state other than the truth to these e . ‘ | interrogators? : cS a | 7 | Mr. Nosenko. JI was angwering questions which were put a Doe -f - «| to me. | | , | Mr. Klein. . Did you ever not tell the truth? : 7 Mr. Nosenko. No, I was telling the truth. i 9 : Mr. Klein. TI would direct your attention -- Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. Mr. Klein. .. Just a moment . Before you you have a 2 4 1 ; : 4 3 4 | | Federal Bureau of Investigation report, is that correct? _ { a , | Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. ‘Mr. Klein. Iwould direct your attention.to page 29 of ; that report. * po 6 Mr. Nosenko. Right. eee oe ea vec ne ee nk ene ne ee a a nee ; Mr. Klein. The last paragraph, beginning with, -"Nosenk¢ stated" -- it's underlined.{ Would you please read that paragraph to us? ie er ee ree) . _ Mr. NOsenko. “Nosenko stated that in view of instruction ss GAAS Ra aa tees a een ne ene ee ce enn J | : z1 Hi 1 gy from. the KGB Moscow, no. active interest could be taken in it : 23 1 | Oswald in “‘Minisk without obtaining prior approval from KCB. i — in. Moscow.’ According to Nosenko, no such approval was ever | a i | ooo vee . H , j requested or granted,. and, based on his experience, he opined | | that the only coverage of Oswald during this stay in Minsk 1] oo ty t H ae Fe it Be OL prise ¥ fo. i a if t Ge a ‘50955 Docld:32277209 Page 27 ode ae
a! Sip 1 POEL g : consisted of periodic checks of his places of employment, | inquiries of neighbors and associates, and review of his mail 1 ? 2 t ; Mr. Klein. Did you make that statement? | : e , 4 | Mr. Nosenko. Yes; sire What do you find here wrong? : 7 Mr. Klein. Does that statement say anything about — , {| srston surveillance? a ' : ae Mr. Nosenko. No, it didn't. | : : 5 i Mr. Klein. Did you forget to tell them about the physical . — ; | ‘| surveillance? | 1 | Mr. Nosenko. Maybe I forget maybe they didn't put; \ i , ui [2 do not know... | . 12 | Mr. Klein. Do you recall speaking to agents Poptaniich i — Gs } || and GheesEing on March 3rd and 4th, 1964? ] Mr. Nosenko. I cannot tell you. I do remember the date; : i no. I remember I: was. speaking with agents from FBI. “they spoke to you at that time, March 3rd and 4th, about i Lee “Harvey: Oswald? - > e i | ; ! | | { | f | { | Mr. Klein. ~Whén™ you spoke to them, did you recall that | ‘ wt . . | i | i Mr. Nosenko. I told you,they were speaking with me | about Oswald, but I cannot tell you the date whem. | | Mr. Klein. Was it in March 1964?. | Mr..Nosenko.. .They. were speaking with me -- February | and the beginning of March of 1964. if } Mr. Kleins.-And did they tape the conversations? Mr. Nosenko. Yes, they were taping all conversations. ra ioe , a re oa) gO , ots be -S09O55 Bocld: 32277209 Page 26 *
} 4 4 Ree 27 Fe Bo va “Mr. Klein. Did. the, agents,make notes when you, were . talking? _ eR — 7 _ nS .Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. . ; i Mr. Klein. Did they ever’ show you those notes?: —~ : | in Mr. Nosenko. No.. oot . Jk Mr. Klein. Were you aware that the statements you-were | dm roe) “making to them were going to be written down in to a report? cae Mr. Nosenko. Sure. Mr. Klein. Did you ever have an opportunity to see the | DS was com ‘Feport?.. Mr. Nosefiko. No. ~ ‘one which was sent to the ‘Warren Commission, | this I have seen. Mr. Klein. Were you aware that the report would be put Oy ovo —s in your file? is . | | ys | Mr. Nosenko. Must be.: Mr. Klein. Were you aware that report would be shown to . i . .a committee such-as this investigating the assassination? .. | Mr. Nosenko. .I didn't! know that it would be created, th Committee, bscause it was 1964. Mr. Klein. Yu didn't know that? “Mr. Nosenko. No. Did! you know that this Committée -- 4 be? in 1964 -- will be. existing) in '78, '77? whe. __ Mr. Klein. ‘And were | you ‘telling. ‘them ‘the truth when. you cate eto ~T nant Senne veh Sanaa (nf ne mane eeceingunes a told them that thé only’ coveraige of Oswald, and listing these things-and_ a5 : | 7 oo - | _ : 7 Cb ene oo i oo | i { i ie 4 Ue oe Docid: 32277209 Page. 29° ,
i 50955 truth you told them? RO. 2? work against Oswald; it's called passive. approachment, not to ‘ment, this is passive. ins ax immediately called active. about yesterday? them about surveillance. Mr. Nosenko. Well, I told them that there was done the it was! ordered, passive type of work , Whenever it's ordered not to make an make al contact, Anything when enters besides whatever is done, contact, | approachments, recruitment,; attempt to recruit, it is Mr. Klein. Looking ati that report, did you tell. them about the physical surveillance which you told this Committee Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not see here, but°I have no- doubts. I do not know. Maybe I didn't mention that this date you said, maybe. I didn't mention but I was telling Mr. Klein. Didn't you not telling them about the physical surveillance, was that thé I. ‘ t ' not to make a recruit- i i ‘ | | i ! ' t 1 \ } \ { i ' tell us that you always told the — a anon om oe ae ene tee se mene ate ae creda een en rte Aen rhs Be erate nnn eee te cette tem emf 19 truth and told everything you knew when you spoke to the FBI| | i : : | an |. | -_ and the CIA? 7 a .Mr. Noseénko. Yes, six. { 22 1 _ Mr. Klein. If they would have asked you, "Was there’ | ~ i physical surveillance?" -- | |. | a . | Zak poo Se ‘ : ; . . “ a: Mr.'Nosenko. Yes, I will answer yes, it was. Le . oe , . po we Mr. Klein. -- you would have answered yes? og a a om | nt) Y . ws iq Bw AR DocId: 32277209 Page 30 ,
‘ BY t RS fa. Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sixrk. =: ro Mr. Klein. You also testified before this Committee that in accord with the orders from Moscow that there was technical ! i surveillance, and you told us in detail about how they tapped t ’ his phone and they would record it and make copies of it aft i TEARS SGD Sa Cc MARAE UEP LARRABEE SOR TTS i 50955 Docld: 32277209 | . * | | po : and gave it to a certain person. } Section even. . : | considered, KGB, nothing important. { ; someone's place of employment and talk to their neighbors? that a big deal? Again, drawing your attention to page 29 of that same paragraph, does that say anything about the technical sur- | | veillance that you told us about? | Mr. Nosenko. No, sir., Mr. Klein. Did you forget? “Mr. Nosenko. But, if you ask, even an agent of FBI;. I doubt it, no. In KGB control of correspondence, control o telephone, it's not big deal. It's giving order to control Chief of Department, not speaking of Chief of Directorate, and not speaking to receive a warrant from the judge. Contr | 4 i 13 | | . Le | of correspondence can be signed, permission to put control | | | . i; Over correspondence can be jdone by the Deputy Chief of { . i } | Do: you understnd what | I want to tell ‘you, it is absolut Mr. Klein. Is it a big deal to check periodically at Page 31 te Dna om i ! | | | } I | i | | ff | a télephone can be given by Chief of Section, not speaking of | L i : t i i : i i dly ee n
fath a nee ae Fr 7 Pe + ip ara. : i 30 a AB Mr. Nosenko. No. 7h ” 24 Mr. Klein. But you told them about that, didn't you? Mr. Nosenko. I:tried ‘simply to describe them what a ob - 1 i Yen kind of, not to take active|.--.what does it mean, passive typ re “Mr... Klein. “Ifs:they.wouldehave-asked you was there any : | | technical surveillance, then would you have told them? | i Mr. Nosenko. I would have said they were told, even 3 | oI “i word for word, in this document said not the technical surveil- of coverage of the target? | | a ‘lance. They have a certain terminology. Let's say surveil- | poe | lance, it's calléd to lead, the «measurement: NAN, cand? to- control ste lephomecto:head:-the-cmeasyurement M. | SO . . Mr. Klein. If they would have said, "Was there any technical surveillance of Oswald?" would you have said | "ves"? t i Mr. Nosenko. Sure. the KGB would have had to have, known about Marina Oswald, ‘ ’ ut | | Mr.. Klein,. You also testified to this Committee that | y.ou said, by the end of the month ‘they would have a batch 29 | of papers? . | : i ERISA Goat octiTbahled tok st he H nt to | | | | something metnioned, 15, 13. | 7 Mr. Klein. Because surveillance was on Oswald, they would Z4 , —_ | . _ | have had to pick her up? | vot i f 2 otf CO oo Mr. Nosenko. You told me, if she had seen him, you, t | i i | Mr. Nosenko. TI cannot tell you it was. in the moment when | . i as Qu 1 : “ % epee is) ont i
3 da oo io) as eee he was Seeing her or not. You said assume that he met her i I. © 16. and 13, and it became known ‘£o KGB through surveillance. I . i said by the end of month that at least something will have on her, who is she, where she is working, where she studied, where she work. . “| a Mr. Klein. They would know that through the surveillance Mr. Nosenko. The fact. will be known through surveillance; on Oswald? t . - then through other outfits of KGB they will find whatever ood t 4 V possible on her. “| Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked the following question: ; and did you giye the following answer: "Question: Why wouldn't she -~ referring to Marina -- hav been investigated when she first met Oswald? | "Answer: They did not know she was a friend of Oswald until they applied for marraige. There was rio surveillance on Oswald to show. that he knew her.” Were you ever asked that question and did you give that answer? | Mr. Nosenko: Sir, I do not remember my questions, and i oo, | answers. Mr. Klein. I would ask that this document be marked for identification, please, and. ‘shown to the witness. i The Chairman. The “clerk will identify for the record the number appearing on “— i. |. } | | | i : ! | ! | i L | ( | | ! | | i
CMW ADO 55 nN An ‘Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. | | Mr. | | is | Mr. ye as i Mr. it . i 16 | say that 19 | Mr. 0 | Mr. i - | ' Mr. Zi | | 74 jj Mr. “Mr i 25 4 Ryan? “Docld: 32277209 2. BE ca ~The Clerk. JFK-F-6. it before? | . "Memorandum for the Record; Subject: Followup Report on the Oswald Case; Source: AEDONOR." Was AEDONOR your code name, - ao at one time? Bow ee (The document referred to was ‘marked as JFK Exhibit No. :F-6. for ' identification.) Klein. ‘Looking at that document, have you ever seen ! i i ’ i f Nosenko. No, sir. Klein. You have neVer’ seen that .before? Nosenko. I never have seen it before. a — Klein. And is -thatia report that says on the cover, i i : t t ' i Nosenko. I do» not; know. { i Klein. "Date of Interview: 3 July 1964." Does it : l . on the cover? i Nosenko. Yes, sir. i Klein. And turning 1 1 i i 1 Nosenko. Yes, 'sir.., Klein. Does it say, "Thomas A. Ryan"? . Nosenko. Yes... i . : : { Klein. "SR/CI/KGB"? ro Nosenko. Yes. | ! ' : ' Klein. Did you ever hear.of a man named Thomas A. to the very last page, page 18.--.
TOP.SECRET =i, i } ' Mr. Nosenko. No, I do not know a man Thomas A. Ryan. Mr. Klein. Do you recall speaking to a man named Thomas Ryan? | | Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. | “Mr. Klein. Would you turn in this document to page 9. On page 9, the last question! and answer, would you read the question for us, and read the answer? . ' Mr. Nosenko. — "Why wouldn't she have been investigated ‘when she first met Oswald?" | "They didn't know she was a friend of Oswald until they applied for marriage. There! was no surveillance on Oswald to show that he knew her." Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked that question and did you ever. -- | | Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember, Sir. But if it is, it must be asked and I this answered. | Mr. Klein. Was that the truth? Mr. Nosenko. As far as| I remember, those conditions in which I was asked, better ask where I was in this period of time, what conditions I was kept, and what type of interrogatipns were going on. - | | Mr. Klein. Did you tell us yesterday that you always told the truth? yO . Mr. Nosenko. Yes. Mr. Klein. -- when you spoke about Oswald? | Mr: Nosenko. Yes. . i Mr. Klein. - Was. this question relating to Oswald? Mr. Nosenko. I was answering what I could. ~ TOP. SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32277209 | Page 35
e ' \ Mr. Klein. Is that the; truth, that they didn't -- | . 4 Mr. Nosenko. It's how it is put, how it’is put. You see, | i , 3 again, why wouldn't she have! been investigated. Here must be | | r ‘ 4 question was in this form. The investigation, not. the checkup | , 5 of her, but, let's say, invitation for conversation, something | “| of this kind, it's some kind of here misunderstanding on both | ? i parts, that would be. mine. ahd interrogator. | 8 L Mr. Klein. It is an inaccurate transcript? | 3 , Mr. Nosenko:’ 1 consider many, many things are | HO 10 | inaccurate. 7 | ae | Mr. Klein. ‘Is that transcribed accurately? | | 12 Mr. Nosenko. I do. not know, Sir. | | . . 13 | Mr. Klein. That answer, do you think it is transcribed | | J . id accurately, that that's your! answer? | i : ; I IS) Mr. Nosenko. Well, I can only explain only one thing. | 6 | Let's say there was KGB found out that he had an acquaintance, | 17 [ torn Prusakova, They were not married. They didn't know -- | { | Shey didn't apply for marriage. What kind of first will be | 4 | a investigation? Checkup in archives of KGB of Byelorussia, and | 20 | on the basis whatever kind of material on her will be found. | 4 ai [net's say, if ‘she was ever on trial by militia, under arrest. | a | te militia had any material, they can expand further. They | ©. "1 | ean also send checkup in the place of her -~ one, it's in one vs | order, to give us the picture of the character of the target, | : 2s | check on him in place of his work and check in place of his living, THO Ot! ° | “MW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 36-_
: 35 in one order. (ND i as this is called checkup -- will be studied and they will start when they see something, let's say, suspicious in behavior of ne bon . Oswald and this his connection. in | ; ae ; ; . ie But more, farther investigation, the true investigation ~~ | | | { | -In case of Marina, wher, they found out that they are going | 4 | 2 7 | to marry; sure, they will bel more, farther investigation, f | 7 | 6 | thorougii invetigation:” but ‘before it will only be checkup. | [eer of view I was, answering this question. | 40 4 Mr. Klein. Let me make it simple. i ae - . ui . Mr. Nosenko.. Right. ; 12 | Mr. Klein. If the question was asked exactly as-it appears): al here, "Why wouldn't she have been investigated when she first | © id met Oswald?" would this be your answer? Is that a correct | | ie | answer. as it appears here? >| ‘a | Mr. Nosenko. Well, it jappears heres but i _do_ not~retiember. il Sure, I answered and this was question, but, gentlemen -- 4 i 7 | ul ! : j 13 | Mr. Klein. Was this true? This says "There was no | LO cm surveillance on Oswald to: show that he knew her" -- is’ that | na | right or wrong? P 1 | Mr. Nosenko. This is what I answered, yes. It is right. | “4 ee | it i _ +, | It is written here. . | oa 5 Mr. Klein. You remember answering that? 2 | Mr. Nosenko. No. Lo S| i ; . - - | ns 4 Mr. Klein. How do you:know you answered that? L- SURES SEH tesa Be : Ss “i es iz cet eR it Re! a, “HW 50955  Docld: 32277209
POP OLUAL a Mr. Nosenko. You are giving me official document «. | _ 2 | Mr. Klein. “You have no} recollection of answering this? | 3 Mr. Nosenko’. Sir, I do! not have any recollection of | @ 4. | interrogations, (= ; ed. | ° 5 | Mr. Klein. If you answered that, were-you telling the 6 erathe | | | | | 7 Mr. Nosenko. I don't know. I answered. Must be. This | | 8 is how I answered question. | | 9 Mr. Klein. You testified to this Committée that the KGB | 10 decided to have Lee Harvey Oswald examined by two psychiatrists| You told us about how it was decided, who decided it, where Mn it was decided. Then they found Lee Harvey Oswald to be mental | | { | unstable? ! | | | | : 13 | | id | Mr. Nosenko. Right. | | . : . i: 158i Mr. Klein. Have you ever been asked the following | i . ! 16 | ‘questions jand given the following answers: | , | | : co | 7 | "Question: Did the KGB: make a.:psychological assessment | to 14} of Oswald? i | | . . oe i al "Answer: No, nothing, but at the hospital it was also said _/20 ! he was not quite normal. The hospital didn't write that he was! i . i if |: { iH 4 . . ; 214 mad?;: . just that he is not normal. | 29 4 "Question: Did the hospital authorities conduct. any f - | of J ce . 73 | psychological testing? . 7 us | "Answer: I. don't think'so. _ There was no report like thig." i , oe . i "4 ag ch Mr. Nosenko. No, I told that there was opinion of . - ; i i A HW 50955 Doclda: 32277209 Page
dad CUAL | | a "KGB throught he was of no interest for the country or | ~ (2 | fox the KGB, that he is not normal, that he should leave | i — 5 | the country.” | | ; an to e 4 | Mr. Klein, . Did-you say anything in there about two i" , : of. 7s § | Psychiatrists examining Oswald and about reading their reports ie i s |which saidshe was mentally’ instable?. Did you say anything | rj about that |there? ! | ‘| | Mr.-Nosenko. Sir, I do pot remember what I said to them; ¢ | ut I would Like you- to cina out the conditions in which interr-| ; 10 |sactong were. done, how it was! done, by what procedures, when ~ | 1 jv interrogators are. seated. | ft never knew any names ~- they | 1 [never announced me names. = one: ‘playing. part of bad guy and. othet . 3 [soe guy, and it starting tapping then, not physically but qT | 3 id mean, psychologically and in conversation, turning question up- | als ide down, however they would! like, then this leave, another one! be start jin softer way. | y Mr. Klein. When did this -- [ 14 Mr. Nolsenko. And I would not trust any of their documents | 19 [En those pelriods of time. up to 1967 when we started from the | 29 beginning, ito work, Mr. Bruce | Solie. That is the one thing. | ni Becond, my knowledge of Language was very poor in '64. ‘I aidn't m2 baderstane many questions, and none of them, excluding - ‘Mr. : a os "3 pecyabin, ven Russian language and Mr. Deryabin was - asking 24 he only questions concerning ny biography and this type: of ques~ 4 : ag tion, but nonoperative questions. i SHW 50955 -Docld:32277209 Page #0
“Ba is 7) ao NO 10. 4 by people in those years... a number of interrogations,: I was under drugs, and on me was UE BLUARE. 39 Mr.- Klein. Do you have jany recollection of being asked these questions and giving the answers that you just read to us? Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I told you, and I will tell, I do not | remember their questions, and I’ do not remember my answers; but I tried to) be truthful with them. Then was period of time when. . I have seen that they wére simply was laughing at me; I: rejected ‘to answer gquestions,.and whenever':they were asking,.I would answer, "Ij do not remember, I do not know; I do not remember." : i 7 | oO . —_ lein. These answers, do they say "I do not know, a t ” Mr. I do not remember" :or do theSe give responsive answers? mt, { } | | | ‘~ Mr. Nosenke. Sir, I do!not trust this document prepared | | j } i t fy Mr.Klein. Is it your testimony that these might not be accurate questions and answers? Mr. Nosenko. My opinion -- I cannot tell you exactly, I | | 4 say might be. : | Mr. Klein. You testified -- | Mr. Nosenko. One more thing: If we are going into this, used a: number of drugs, and I know that, and hallucinations and talking during night and ‘sodium and everything,.-even many - others, and a number of things were absolutely incoherent. i . Mr. Kilein. This hostile interrogation. that you have been referring to, when did it begin?. . oo, . . . , ‘ —— Mr. Nosenko. Arrested ime 4th of April, 1964, started ‘
“MW 50955 da a | ie | | | | | | | li | Docld:32277209 4 Mr Mr. .Mr. | i Mr. | | | | Mr. : - i ‘ 1 1 Fl | situation. || interrogate me in two days. ‘Klein. Nésenko Klein. ! land he wanted permission for visa to come to the Soviet Union. Do you remember reading that cable us in detail, how long it was? Nosenko. Klein. went:to Minsk, the next ‘time you heard of him was in connection ywith Oswald's application “to: the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City ox a Soviet reentry visa, |advisea Moscow of.the subject' S application; your knowledge iresulted from an oral inquiry of your department by M.IT. | Did you ever say that, that you did not know how Mexico iCity advised Moscow of Oswald's application? And this was} all after April 4 oe Yes; ; . 40 they interrupted ~~ I don't know ~| | Interrogate a month, two, made break; then again, then again | period of ho interrogation; then again interrogations, up to 1 i 24 hours, hot giving me’ possibility to sleep. fl + 1 , L964? “That, "is > "why TL will: not ‘take as a document anything what! You testified in detail yesterday about the Lone interrogations in hostile, absolutely hostile, { cable which you ‘saw which was sent from Mexico City to the First i chief Directorate in Moscow, and you testified that you “actually | | | | ‘sir. oo . oe | | | | | | | | | | | i | read that cable and ‘that it told that Oswald was in Mexico city -and describing it for Yes, Sir. Did you ever say to anyone that after Oswald ‘and you did not know how Mexico City Turalin,
“dy 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page #3 te ee ee ae ee 4 i es ‘ Bs +] a | Wd Uh UAE & | . 41 | Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember. I am telling you what 2 I have seen, cable, what was told through Lieutenant i:Colonel 2) AleKseev-toitell. to Turalin thelopinion of Second Chief Directorate Hi Séventh Department. din . | Mr. Klein. I draw your attention to page 30 of the FBI ) | report in front of you. Mr. Nosenko; I do not have it. | 8 ! (Pause) Yes, sir. Mr. Klein. On the top of page 30, read for us the under- lined section on the top, beginning "The next time" -- Mr. Nosenko. "The next time Nosenko heard of Oswald was | | | | | | Mexico City for a Soviet reentry visa. Nosenko did not know nod Mexico City advised Moscow of subject's application. His f i | | { i | 13 | in connection with Oswald's application to Soviet Embassy in H i knowledge resulted from an oral inquiry of Nosenko's department | | by Turalin, Service No. 2,.Counterintelligence in Foreign i Countries, First Chief Directorate. Nosenko recalled that Turalin had orally, contacted Vladimir Alexseev, Chief of Sixth Section i | i i q | 290 11 of Nosenko's Tourist Department, with respect to Oswald. } i 21 || Nosenko's department had no interest in Oswald and they . il) wecommended . that Oswald's request for reentry visa be denied, i e °3 Nosenko couldn't recall when Oswald visited Mexico City in | zs | connection with visa application." ho 3s | Mr. Klein. Did you ever say this to an FBI agent? | ’ ~§2R BEN at wey i @ 3 Oy Pe ome i e 3 ue wee 3 ‘all eg Ge 3
\ t | | 42 4 n> ont Mr. Nosenko. Must be I said it,. it's here in document. Mr. Klein. It says in here that Nosenko did not know how Le) Mexico City advised Moscow of subject's application. Did you . | dn say that? Mr. Nosenko. Must be; I said this in this way. i on Mr. Klein. And did you tell us that not only did you know it A li ; at sf i 7 | pow they advised them by cable but that you read the cable? | i 5 . . | & | 'Mr. Nosenko. This is what I recollection. i ! J ‘ Mr. Klein. Did you tell them the truth? i . . : i } 0 | Mr. Nosenko. I was trying to tell what I remembered. | . . . _ — WI Mr. Klein. And this FBI report which you just read from, . 2 would you look back on the first page and would you tell us the | . a | aate of thatreport? | ~~ | - ' ap "| Mr. Nosenko. Fifth of March, 1964. I AS Mr. Klein. March 5, 1964. Is that before April 4, i . i | Coenen i Ze "| Mr. Nosenko. Yes,sir. | an Mr. Klein. That was before any hostile interrogations | | 1 | began, is that correct? | | + | Mr. Nosenko. Yes. | | 7 | | 21 | Mr. Klein. And at that time you said that you did not know I {i 0 : ‘ : i2 anything about the cable, is that right? | aon aie | Mr. Nosenko. This is what I answered them, how I remembered. oe us | Mr. Klein, I have a question. Do you understand from what | i i . : psychological turmoil a person, passing who defected, do | TAD OraDET a Hoga ere 2 ie
chologically, he doesn't kncw how he will be living, what he will be doing, and at the same time a person feels attitude on the it, and took. .Who of them wrote, I do not know, no .doubts :that' Fedroseve. | and Matveev. were’ participated. in the preparation of documents. 24 eo + \ i you understand that it is necessary time, time to settle psy- 3 _ 4 part of those who helped him to come CIA? I felt something & going on. ° Mr. Klein. ‘You testified to us today that you didn't 6 know how wrote the summary of Oswald's file in the First Depart- 7 ment. because you never had an opportunity to read it. Did you & ever tell anyone that Fedroseve-and Matveev, Fre-d-r-0-s-e-v-e 9 | and M-a-t-v-e-e-v of the First Department, Second Chief 19 | Directorate, took the file and wrote a second "spravka", which 1 you told us was'a summary? "| Mr. Nosenko. Summary. ‘Mr. Klein. Did you ever tell anybody that? | B | Mr. Nosenko. Must be I told, it is again: right, because a you see, not Fedroseve -- Fedroseve was Chief of First Depart- 15 | ment, American Department, and I will repeat what I told you 16 yesterday. Matveev has come to take file, but surely Fedrosev | who is Chief of American Department, he had given call to Chie | of Seventh Department. He was involved in this; that is why I 19 | mentioned him. He was Chief of First American Department. . His deputy, Colonel Matveev, has come, and not alone; with him nl was a couple of officers, has come and told that Gribanov | ordered and Fedroseve giving call to Department, we must take 22 | | | | | | | | ~ TOP. SECRET HW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 45
2 SR TO ES SS 'They are responsible for First American Department. Mr. Klein. So. you have an idea of who would have written, is that. correct? Ge Mr. Nosenko. American Department, no doubts that this an | two. will, ‘be. participating or correcting. Mr.’ Nosenko. No, I haven’t seen summary. | Mr. Klein. But you didn't read that summary, is that right ? a7 Mr. Nosenko... I ee reading the summary. sh. Mr. Klein. Did you read it? Do you have any recollection g oe reading i it? | | ; | | | et Mr. Klein... Are you positive that you didn't see that 0 | Summary? perenne ceva ates tenure een aan penn one ott eC | 3 | Mr. Nosenko. I have seen summaries in the file of Oswald. on | ; . col id : Mr. Klein. Are you positive you didn't seé the summary oo 4 = ees by the First Department after they took the file away? 6 : . Nosenko. I do not remember seeing. As I told you, - : ae haven't seen it. | 18 Mr. Klein. You testified that Oswald was considered noma!) 19 jprioe to the time he cut his wrist, and even told us that you | 20 jvere surprised, you had no indication he would do something . 2 Like that. | 29 H Were you ever asked the following question, and aid. you! oe i @ 3 |give the following answer: | - . | 24 "In what way was the Oswald case handled differently from I . ag. ,cases of other American defectors?" “HW 50955 Doclda:32277209 Page 46
; ie Big GS BER | * te Oa WY di i. ka 45 | a "Answer: The main difference is that he was not to be | “4 ? | atiowea to stay. He was considered to be not normal." 3] Mr. Nosenko. This is what cases I know, who were staying. | ES , j Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not >t normal, referring to the period before he tried to commit suicide? i 5 | Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember; but if I said it, it's fj not right becuase we didn't know. that he was normal or not | Ss jenormal. Up until the moment of he cut his wrist we started to | ? | suspect. to | Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that he was considered not ni normal? | 2 Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember. | | i i3 | Mr.. Klein. Well, if you would have said it, would it have | i iit ig been correct? : i i is | Mr. Nosenko. No, it would not be correct, because he cannot H $ 6 [be considered abnormal. We didn't know anything up till he || cut the wrist. Mr. Klein. You testified to this Committee that you were i | i i i i j i t d i ' i | r i | ' | | 19 oo at a meeting with the Chief of the Seventh Department | | aa 3 | was there. | 24 Mr. Nosenko. Right. h Mr. Klein. You told us that Krupnov was not even in the se a a & gi k 1 “HW 50955 Docld:322977209 Page 47
; #8 6F GELALS | 46 | 1 | Seventh Department at that time? | | ~ 2 Mr. Nosenko. Krupnov appeared a little later. | 3 | Mr. Klein. Did you ever tell anyone that on the basis of | {i <a || your evaluation of Oswald, you ‘instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald @ | 5 | through Intourist interpreter that Oswald would not be permitted | to remain in the U.S.S.R. permanently and that he would have’ | es depart at the expiration of his visa? | | Did you ever tell anybody that? a Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I do not remember. If I said it, it | 10 | was wrong, not right, because Krupnov started participation only 1 in this case when Oswald was allowed to stay. In the moment \ in | when Oswald arrived in Soviet Union, when he went in hospital, 13 | xrupnov was still not in Seventh Department. He very soon | © | appeared later. | Then it was wrong. If I stated it, it was | ig | Wrong. i . 16 Mr. Klein. Directing your attention to the FBI report in| yy | front of you, I would like to draw your attention to page 28. | af Mr. Nosenko. Right. | is ' :Mr. Klein. Beginning with the underlihed section beginning . with the first "On the basis" in the second paragraph, would a | you read this? | | . . 23 i Mr. Nosenko. "“Nosenko and Krupnov on the basis of this” | e ; 72: | ‘information, concluded that Oswald was of no interest to the | he i 44 | KGB and both agreed that Oswald appeared somewhat abnormal.” on Mr. Klein. Not that, the second paragraph, "On the basis — arg peta canting myariieee ts | of" -- i! | j ye a Secs tg aarerergpess a eh ages a ae i Ty r. & ap0 RAS Tae ae FB ee A & ‘Bocld: 32277209 Page 45
| 47 - Mr. Nosenko. "On the basis of Nosenko's evaluation of : | | 2 1 Oswald, he instructed Krupnov to advise Oswald through the 3 | Intourist interpreter Oswald would not be permitted to remain in| es ‘| the U.S.5.R. permanently and that he would have to depart at | e 5 | the expiration of his visa, and thereafter seek reentry as a , | pexmanent resident through routine channels at the Soviet 7 | Embassy in the United States." | . | | 2 Mr. Klein. Did you ever say that? | | Mr. Noseénko.. I do not remember saying this. It can be | oO 7 | ja | that simply misunderstanding, and, you see, this is not | 1) | txangeription from the tape. It is, Iwill say a summary, wma me do not remember. But, if I said this, it isthot eight because, - ~ 13 | Keupnov didn’t participate it in the beginning. © id | ; Mr. Klein. . Also “it says oh sf Mr.’ Nosenko. “Tt was participation of Rastrusin. al Mr. Klein.. Also is it correct when it says in there that | you made the decision and -- an aoe _ oOo so a) Chief of Section. | i j i Mr. Nosenko. No, I couldn't make decision, being Deputy | i i } | i | | 1 Mr. Klein. Does it say anything there -- a1 Mr. Nosenko. I could say my opinion, yes. | Mr. Klein. Does it say anything there aboutya meeting 3 “od ; a. oo a4 to determine what to do, or does it say that on basis of. your za, | evaluation, you told Krupnov to do it? | | | y2° in sala mek. Mr. NoSenko. It's not right. I said only that Krupnov ! i H i i I i H i
Bae a wi, MR fy rte Bas 1 ges Ho fe Yea i . Pe { He . / | “ a 48 { . . ‘ | appeared later. . This period, what we are discussing here, was ra “ | : . . , a e . . . . : . a 2 |} Rastrusin involved, decision cannot be done on my own, being 3 || Deputy Chief of Section; decision cannot be done even being da * Deputy Chief of Section, Chief of Section, at least it | | | | | in must be on the level of Chief of Department. “Mr. Klein. — So itl is incorrect, is that what you are + sayinge ' Mr. Nosenko.* tt is incorrect, and. Krupnov -- I do not remember . Mr. Klein. You told us, when I questioned you about the fact that. -you didn’t; tell. ‘the FBI that there was physical we — ; CO TTT rare Oe TSS Dane im TA BO RTO OST NIGER OIE SRT RE SRR NR RO ah RTC at ee thane toca Sane San aan satan riparnn ae detonknN ree aed eo aN Pe ra mn 2 oe = aay thos : f | i i t i ! ' i i | surveillance, the last question T asked you, fra they would have, | i I { | { 12 | asked you if he was physically surveilled, would you have told _ 13 them, and you said yes? . J r. ta Mr. Nosenko. “Yes, sure. I will say.. | ee ts | Mr. Klein. Were you ever asked the following question 16 | and: did. you give the following answer: eee oe 7 . nee eemtern ET ‘7 | "Was he physically surveilled" and that is referring to} 1g | Minsk, and you answered "No, there was none"? of- 9 | “Mr. Nosenko. It was not right, because. it was order. given! | | 20. and he was under periodical surveillance. ot 51} “Mr. Klein. I draw your attention to page 9 of the CIA . | document in front of you, Memorandum for the ‘Record. | a ; oo 13. Mr. Nosenko. I do not have it. | I. th Mr. Klein. The Ryan Report. I. draw: -your attention to > Page 7 se f 9, : a cae i h : TAB ! . E | RO95S5 Doclda: 322772
ig. as aD wy he i 49 | | Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. | _ | Mr. Klein. Would you read ithe first question and the first | 2 | answer? # | 8 4 Mr. Nosenko. "Was he physically surveilled?" | ‘ s | "No, there was none." | ‘| Mr. Klein. Did you ever give that answer to that question? " ati Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember; it's not right, the 2 | answer. | | Mr. Klein. I would ask that this tape, which is marked | 10 3 July '64, Reel No. 66, be deemed marked for identification. | ; a The Chairman. Indicate for the record the marking. / The Clerk. JFK-F-7. ; . | (The item referred to was marked ! @ tg as JFK Exhibit No. F-7 for identification.) in The Chairman. We will recess for about five minutes. (A brief recess was taken.) The Chairman. The Committee is back in session. La oon | During the recess the witness made a request of the i xp | chaiz that he be permitted to make a brief statement prior to 20 | 21 | counsel for the Committee resuming interrogation. ay il The Chair is going to grant that request and recognize 22 | {> a3 the witness at this time for such statement as he would like - : | 2 | to make. | i . a3 f Mr. Nosenko. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. . oe | SAW ADOS5 Docld: 32277209 Page 51
| (OF So6AL | 50 Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlerien, I arrived in the Cad _ going wrong because the attitude on the part of the officers as. from CIA who was dealing with ine, I felt was going wrong, by { | | | | | wt 2 | united States in 1964, 12th of February. I felt something was | - | | | psychological’ process. It's a very big thing, when you are comb i i 7 a number of remarks, their behavior. Besides, I was ina ’ | ing to live in a new country. “I left the country where I was | 3 | born, never mind, my defection was strictly on ideological . | t pbaste but still psychologically is very big thing and very ! ‘© | serious thing. | "| A very short period of time, April 4, I was invited on check- | 2 | up for the doctor, and this checkup turned to be arrest. | = 12 | Arrested was in very rude form, nobody beat my physically , | | 2 | n0, but in rude. form, trying to: put dignity of the person, of 13° | human being, down, kept in very hard conditions. I was a 16 | enoxing from 14 ears old, never quitted. Iwas rejected to | . 7 smoke. I didn't see books. I didn't read anything. I was | @ sitting in four walls, metal bed in the center of ene room ana | 19 | that is all. | : | 26 | | Iwas hungry, and this was the most difficult for me because 21 | os I tried not to think about food. I was thinking about food | 22 | because all the time I want to eat. I was receiving very smalt Ga | 73 | amount, and very poor food. I was sitting some kind of attic; | lat was hot, no air conditioning, cannot breathe; windows “~ no | asf ! { ! | i HH i windows, closed over. I was permitted to shave once a’week,
“HW ‘50955 i} de ran oo" Boocld: 32277209 cand don't want to see them. And I am asking you not to ask “to iretimn’ back. I passed through hell. I started new Lite in 51 oa i i to take showers once a week. | From me were taken toothpaste, toothbrush. The conditions were really inhuman, conditions in this place; and later transferred. in another*place, which is now I know where it was, the second place, | : | | | where certain ‘house and ‘the | same very, very Spartansconditions; three ‘and a half years. | Besides that,.on me were used different types of drugs and | sleeping drugs, hallucination drugs, and whatever I do not know, and don't want to know. What I want to tell you, the arrest was done illegally, without due process of law, without -- in violation of Constitution, which was found by Rockefeller Commission. It Pd wasn't mentioned tay name, but simply nameless: defector, who, was over three years in extremely Spartan conditions. tnterrogations were’ ‘done ‘sometimes 24 hours, not giving me an hour to ‘sleep: . Interrogations were in very hostile. manner. | | | | i | | | | | | | | | y Simply, what I would say were rejected. How long T will be, wh ‘it is without due process, no warrants; "You will-be eternally, 25 years." How long we.would:want.: you to keep. . That is why e consider all interrogations, all materials, which concerns © this period of time are illegal, and I am not recognizing then | i { | Jd 4 I . ae ‘ a . ey : i questions based on this interrogations, including trying to i play the tape during this interrogations. For me it's difficult : i i i i | 4 ‘ Page 53
52 ‘69 only because I was true defector. I never raised this aad I am loyal to the. country which accepted me, and I didn! t wanted) to, hurt the country. | | b, | | question with correspondents. I never.went in ‘press, because. : i i | i | i i rT. dian' t hurt,. even to hurt, the intelligence, the CIA. i \ * NS) ! eu didn't consider the whole CIA was responslbe. Were ae . ie people, for this. Thank God they are not working there | ° o anymore. They are — out... If I will go in press, if I would | ‘ i - ; . ; . . ! , . { be telling about these inhumane conditions, I will hurt not only, the agencies, ‘the intelligerice service. of the U.S., I will hurt the interests of the U. S. swiWho. would: like. tov defect;: reading in what conditions and what treatment defectors - is receiving. | humane relations with me, which | was started at the end of '67. + st . 4 } | Sir, I prefer that you be ‘using materials when it was rahe | | I Still was under arrest but I was transferred from the extremely | Spartan conditions, and with me started to’ work Mr. Bruce i . , ne Solie, who passed through the whole life, through all cases, i n | through everything. People who. were talking with me before | were coming with what they were told, how to approach to me, | oe . : | how to treat me. They have come. with made opinion, before whatever I will say yes or no. That is why I consider it~ is all unlawful documents in the period of interrogations.done t by anyone in CIA. up until the end of '67.- The Chairman. Is there. anything further, Mr. Nosenko? Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. wo in (Pages 53 thru 78, being Comp) tte is ness only, are excerpted. ) Docld: 392977209
78 ioourrMrew Blakey... Shall I inform: the witness? | The Chairman. ' Tn light of the time situation and our ‘ BR | original intention of txying: ‘to wind up by. 10:00. pem., the Chair} aa thinks perhaps we ought to try and invoke a five minute rule 3 So ‘that everybody: gets a fair® ‘opportunity rather: than to proceed) i . ; 6 oma and extend this matter over a long period of time. 7 | Anyone have any objection? 8 i All right, bring the witness in. oe (Whereupon; at 8:43 o'clock p.m., the witness returned 1 to the hearing room. ) | Jv ‘The Chairman. Let the record reflect the fact the witness es ‘has again returned to the witness table and, Mr. Nosenko, it at this time counsel for the Committee has concluded his questions | to you and at thispoint in time the members of the Committee i “TS would like to be able to pose questions to you with reference ~ i | | i | | | | | | : h | | | en @ . on ‘to your testimony -here yesterday and this evening. Is that agreeable to you, Six? . Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. <a The Chairman. Thank you. . , . . 7 The Chair at this point would invoke the five minute BD —_ rule. The Chair will begin the questions. Mr. Nosenko, you are now a citizen of the United States, il you are now an employee of the CIA, I understand as a consultant, A i i 1 i j i i 1 } ' | i ¢ | i is that correct? 4“ by 1 Mr. Nosenko. On private contract. I am. not an employee { t i t | i ! i HW 50955 DoclId:32277209 Page 55
. 79 of the CIA. I amon. a private contract, used as a consultant on counterintelligence of the Soviet KGB. Coe] The Chairman. And in that capacity, sir, are you paid an da annual salary? ‘Mr. Nosenko. ves; sir, I am paid an annual salary. _ The Chairman. And what is that salary? Mr. Nosenko. $35,000. The Chairman. And -- SE ee ve) } ! | | } i j Mr. Nosenko. It is the last year, because it was cost of ; | | - | . | | | H } i wf. 1 i - [. living. ns The Chairman. Iosee. In that capacity, do you contract | 2 | oe also to other persons or other organizations? ie 13 ; Mr. Nosenko. No. | oe id | . The Chairman. This is your sole income? is Mr. Nosenko. | only one sole income. we The Chairman. Has the CIA given you anything else of a7 | value other than a salary, that is, a home, anything of that. 13 sort? | igh Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. And in the book published, written}: 20 | by Epstein was mentioned CIA bought me home . No, sir, I bought | | a 21 | home on my money, nobody bought me a home, no. | | . a The Chairman. You also now are remarried and you have -- | e 3 | Mr -Nogenko.. ‘ves, sir, I am married. I am american citizen, - oa . 2 | I have five stepchildren and six grandchildren. ! i a ; - 35 7 The Chairman. You now have a passport? ‘Do you have a | 7 ; en : 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 56. -
80 Poa fea: Coor [stares es é av: Co e  &- Srey Gre oo oi Seana rte re) (area ; passport.as a -- Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I have a passport, which I once used | for week where I was talking with | concerning my knowledge of . the Second Chief Direc- dn in , 6 torate, KGB in general. 7 | The Chairman. Is that the only country to which you have | traveled since your defection? 7 Mr. Nosenko. No. I have traveled on behalf of. the 0 | ceneza Intelligence Agency also for the last four years. I. 1 | was in countries. And I never received or demanded or 12 | asking any special fees for consultations with all ® 13 never. h a id The Chairman. Have you ever returned to Soviet Russia? i , 1s | Mr. Nosenko. Never once in Soviet Union from 1964 and 1s | nope will never see it again. i7 | The Chairman. And how long have you now been a consultant 13 for CIA? o Mr. Nosenko. I was from 1969, from April 1969, when I was { * | scone from detention arrest. The Chairman. Now, will you clarify for us when you first were placed under arrest? Mr. Nosenko. Fourth of April, 1964. The Chairman. And on what. date had you defected? ry at Mr. Nosenko. I defected 4th of February of 1964 in Geneva, & hs Pd “ nN ee ery *, Re i al pg Sat ‘ moat y _HW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 57.
| Switzerland. —_ 2 | The Chairman. And when you were placed under arrest, 2 | where were’ you placed in detention? o A ur. Nosenko. Sir, I do not know, it was somewhere around s | washington, close to Washington, where I was '64 and beginning 5 165, approximately. T don't hear any radio, I didn't see any ; | newspaper, I do not know, didn't know anything what happen in te world for many years. a | I know that it was by car from Virginia where I was 19. | staying from 12 of February '64, I was taken by car for visit 1) [te doctor, and it was. 30, 40 minute drive, it was in this area, _ 1 | but then in approximately after a year and maybe 13 months, a. i | year and one month, roughly, I was transferred in very t 4 id peculiar conditions, was put under shackles and handcuffs, .¢ | blindfolded, put in the car, and don't know where I was going, WSou ng | only I heard, passing through city, +I :couldnm'!t:understand, I iL : eee 7 jeouldn't see anything, then I heard airplanes, I understood .y | that I was soméwhere in airport, and once I was scared to death, 1p | think I was thinking they were returning me to the Russians. zo. WeLL, they put me in airplane ~~ | The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, my time has expired. I want . sp to recognize -- i , ; 44 Mr. Nosenko. I do not know the place, sir..I-know I only | 7 », [now found out reading the book of paniel Schorr that I was in ae as lup to the end of '67. That is what I found out from 4 ; Pet ee 3 se Eeag ae) . ‘a te sal gee . Soe Fe ae ark ag _ BY 50955 Doclda: 32377209 | Page 54:
| | 1 the book. | oN 2 | - The Chairman. ‘Thank you. | 3 | Mr. Preyer. | © 4 : Mr. Preyer. Mx. Nosenko} “one thing that comes through ve ly | 5 | strongly in your testimony is that it is a hard life to be a 6 | detector. I think to the average mentality we think it would | " be good for a country to welcome a defector, but to the | 8 | intelligence mentality apparently a defector is immediately sust. 1d pe we ! a pect, and you have recounted your “treatment here, and apparently 10 | Lee .Harvey Oswald, from your testimony, was greeted somewhat. 1 | like this inthe U.8.S:R. ‘His’ treatment was, ‘uch different 12 | from yours. | oy ee, | | & . 13 One thing he was not an intelligence agent, of course. | is | But you have indicated that he was kept at arms' length by the | “is | Kes. The impression I get was the mere fact of being a defector { . is | caused the KGB to be less interested in him than if it was a someone they had recruited? sO qe: . | Mr. Nosenko. Right. 19 | Mr. Preyer. “Although he was kept at arms' length: by the o | KGB, in the sense that he was not contacted, it does appear { . a 21 | that he lived very well there, relatively speaking. “He cer- ac t from the “Red Cross, and apparently pretty good housing conditi 23 | tainly lived much.better than you lived in your early years. ep 74 | That he was given a job in Minsk, he was given a pension, , 24 || which is something that seems extraordinary in this country, ns cere eee eee een nn nae en A ei i op gy IP HW ADOAA ~bocld: 32277209 Page 59 " TOP Secrecy
each one received life pension a month of (5000 Soviet rubles Ww in | 83 | ] in Minsk. | oN 2 | - Is that typical way that a defector would be treated in ; 3 | Russia, is ‘ate armhs’ Tength? | @ ; 4 | Mr. Nosenko. Every defector will be watched but, sir, | | " when you mentioned what he received being in Russia, it is very — 6 little. I can give you only one example. When defectors [press na stone, employees of NSA, who cooperated with KGB 8 abroad, and then they defected to Soviet Union, they received | 9 | extraordinary help. It is not like Oswald. Oswald is nothing. | 10 Mr. Preyer. The amount of money? | ay | ‘Mr. Nosenko. The amount of money and other things, 2 | extroardinary. | alts 13 | Mr. Preyer. For Oswald were not extraordinary? | _ id | Mr. Nosenko. No. 4s Mr. Preyer. You’mentioned the other three defectors that | 16 | you had known of. What sort of treatment did they receive? | v Mr. Nosenko. I will tell you what Martin and Mitchell -- | 1a | Mr. Preyer. were they two of the other three? 19 | Mr. Nosenko. These two, for example. I can mention other ” | what I heard, I never work with them, what I heard. Martin | a | and Mitchell, by decision of Soviet Governitent was given then, | 29 to each one, $100,000 on their account, was given apartment, | 6 i 43 | not like Oswald received, but real’ good apartment, so-called Le i 4 : classless society, tiving high class. Each one was given car, | |
HW 450955 22 73 24 ae foe Boclda: 322777209 Page 61 oS TO? SrGmel nh ee a rp A a SP RP TT EA ITO PE ee cee ne error erent einen pen tint neonatal ng tat ina ee nn ee nnn Uae cei hee Son ee aK {UP SECRET up to death. And each one was helped with work. Both were g4 assignéd with: some .type-of. research: work..where they had given ‘position, let's say Martin was given position of researcher. But amount of pay of his was analogical to the amount of pay of the Director of this Institute, ‘besides what he is receiving of pension. This is .the treatment of those defectors whom they want, who had given them valuable information. In case of -- excuse me -- was Annabella Bucar defected something early "50s. She was working in American Embassy in Press Department. She also received, in spite of the fact was making very good money in the Soviet Union, she was working for Moscow Radio, she was receiving life pension of big amount, amount approximately what in Soviet Union is received by Deputy of Minister, of Ministry, of this or that industry. | Mr. Preyer. But the defector who was not giving informa- | tion? | Mr. Nosenko. Now, he will be given a little bit something, pension like was Oswald, to Oswald given pension. I don't know what was given to Webster, a worker, who was defected in '59 and by the way, in very short period of time he decided he doesn't like the life in the so-called Soviet paradise. He wanted to return back home, but if he received it will be analogical to what Oswald received, not more. The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. . Mr. Devine. teen eteemeeemerrecenen seme me Seeger ecm rete fs ns resetanang estates sstenaigatnt Seretatanentt sate atnsiee Sauer ACAnnEEAGn Fe Reh ewe Ard ete ns Ee
10 YW 712 ec gee ee er nt eprom SS =e i TOP SECRET Mr. Devine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 85 Were you solicited to be a defector? Mr. Nosenko. No, Sir. ‘No, sir.. Mr. bevine. Why did you defect? Mr. Nosenko. I “defected because I for years of my life has come to number of conclusions that. the whole society, the whole system, is dictatorial system, nondemocratic system, the true police state system, and especially working the KGB opened eyes for me. My defection was strictly on ideologi cal basis. Mr. Devine. Had you been out of the Soviet Union prior to your defection? Mr. Nosenko. Yes. nS Mr. Devine. Other than’ to. Geneva? oy Mr. Nosenko. yes, I was in England twice, then I was passing through a number of. countries, staying day, two, France, Belgium, HOlland. I was in 1960 in Cuba. Mr. Devine. You were a married man in” Russia? - Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. Mr. Nosenko. Yes, two daughters. - _ Mr. Devine. Were you having some domestic difficulties? Mr. Nosenko. No. I tried in 1960-'61, I tried to arrange to go to work abroad with my family, and‘in the last moment Mr. Devine. Had a child? | | i | it-fell down, and I understood I cannot go abroad with ‘family, _ | {
HW 450955 {UP SECRET ; 1 land that is why when I contacted CIA in '62, I =- psychologicall 2 qT was ready, ideologically was ready and psychologically 3 | to defect, but the question of family was bothering me. Mr. Devine. But not enough to keep you there? Mr. Nosenko. Not enough to keep me there. And in '64 6 | I has come knowing that I will never return. Mr. Devine. You were willing to abandon your family? Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, because I didn't see possibility to take family out: I was living the last four or five years as a man with two souls, splitted personality, one I must show 11 and was showing, as good KGB officer, as a good Communist, as ome - set ee = ag pow Docld: 32277209 a patriot of the Soviet system, the Soviet Union, and the other part of me, the true part I am not believing in what I am telling, I am not believing in the system, I do not like it, I do not want it, and I consider what phony things are going on because I was working in KGB, I knew it. I simply couldn't more tolerate to be with this double splitted personality. Mr. Devine. How did you dispose of your children and your wife in Russia? Mr. Nosenko. The thing was psychologically, my had, had children. suffer. Page 63 in my mind. help me. My mother was rather rich, after death of father, she was very rich woman and she had a lot that will be enough not only for my children but their children and grand-~ From the point of view of material they will never TOP ScCRET ready
HW 450955 10 mn mo ot een eee ereongnnenynnriunestmanananyouveamsaraorer es SmsanSe aun res Norn TESST SNOT Ta Pa naa a atc cnc ace ca cnn OA EN TOP SECRET Mr. Devine. Yes,but as a defector would there not be reprisals taken by the Soviet Union against your family? Mr. Nosenko. sir, before the death of Stalin it could be taken drastic measures against the family, but after the death of Stalin, from middle 1950s, quite a little changes took place in the Soviet Union, and’ the family will not suffer. Another thing, oh ‘sure, will be certain things. which they cannot achieve. Let's say my brother who studied later in the same Institute what I finish, Institute of International Relations, he will never have possibility to go. abroad, but he will never ‘be put in jail, can never ‘be exiled from Moscow, the same, nothing happened with family. Mr. Devine. The fact that you were a KGB man didn't your defection catise some irritation among those in power over there: Mr. Nosenko. Sure. Mr. Devine. Did they want to get you back, didn't they want to get even with you? Mr. Nosenko. Oh, yes, and they are looking for me. Mr. Devine. But they took no reprisals against your famil Mr. Nosenko. No. | Mr. Devine. How do you know that? Mr. Nosenko. Well, I do not know exactly, but you see, there were some defections before. The family didn't suffer lik it was, let's say, in '40s and maybe up to death of Stalin. Mr. Devine. Were those RGB defections? Mr. Nosenko. Even from KGB. i (| aaa
88 The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. | + 2 Mrs. Burke? | 2 | Mrs. burke. well, 1 Would Like to go back a little bit @: 4 | after you decided to defect. I think you had a number of 7 conversations with the American Embassy, was it, or was it 6 | CIA, during those ten days that you were in touch, where’ you 7 negotiated whether or not you would in fact défect? ! 8 Mr. Nosenko. No, I contacted. CIA in “1962 and -- | Mrs. Burke. In '64? i 10 | Mr. Nosenko. In "64, when I arrived in Geneva, on second " day I mailed a cable, and I knew -- a prearranged addressed, 12 | and I knew that in two days somebody in appropriate ‘place and & 13 | appropriate time will meet me from CIA.. . i ee 1d Mrs. Burke. And they met you -- : 1S Mr. Nosenko.. They met me and I was meeting them every 16 | day, visiting, and when I had free time, visited becret address 17 | in Geneva. a ; ! | 13 Mrs. Burke. AIl right, during those times jyou were meet) 19 | them, did you negotiate in terms of what your situation would z1 4 9°? : 99 Mr. Nosenko. Well, T put a’ question that what amount o ; e. 33 salary I want, that will find for me job. This I negotiate 24. Mrs. Burke. Did you discuss whether or not you wou? i | | | | 20 | be here in the United States if you defected, or where you woj i | i | | | ; ibe imprisoned? | | | |
TOP SECRET ay 89 a 3 / § | certain amount of money. 6 Mr. Nosenko. It's in '62. ‘ Mrs. Burke. In '62 you said that. In '64 you didn't 8 | discuss any sale of any information? | Mr. Nosenko. No, no, on the contrary, for the period of 10 | “62 -'64, I tried to get as much as possible informatiion:, not n [omy to come what I knew where I participated in the depart- 2 [ment where T worked but to find out as much as possible what ca be valuable to the American intelligence and I had come with some luggage. ~ oe in id { Mr. Nosenko. No, it never come to my mind that they woul imprison me, Mrs. Burke. Did you tell them that -- I think you told us you had some information you would well to them for a | | | : | | | ' | | t -.73 14 Mrs. Burke. All right, well, during the time that you wer | . | . 16 | talking to them about what your salary would be, the circum- VW | stances of your defection, and I assume you told them what you 13 ee was, some of the things you worked on -- 19 | Mr. Nosenko. Yes. | Mrs. Burke. -- did you tell them you worked on the 29 | Mr. Nosenko. I do not remember, I can mention. I do not | i remember, honestly. 24 | Mrs. Burke. Did you discuss Oswald at all with them turing ithat period? : : : : 1 ~) wi we my ee mee ern ee ee, HW SO955 BDocld: 32277209 Page 66- TOP SECRET ; :
a a a ea a ee STR t I | | | | | y | | | i t ' | { i senna abana Steere caver vancc tren nva eri SON Ne eae Oa eared —10P SEGRET Mr. Nosenko. I must, sure, mentioned this fact because, 90 no, it happened such a thing. -T must mention. But I do not remember. I cannot tell you what questions were, what my answers were. | | Mrs. Burke. Did you tell them that the Soviet Union thoug t that Oswald may have been a United States agent? Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I certainly ~~ it would be -- anyone treated. Oswald, or anyone from the United States who come to live on his own decided to defect, or they contacted him before, they will still will be suspected ina possibility that he is an agent of American intelligence, and also this fac Mrs. Burke. And is.this the reason that you gave him why he was not allowed to remain in the Soviet Union? Mr. Nosenko. The reason was that they didn't want him to stay because, KGB, because they didn't consider him an interest ing target, an interesting person who has valuable information Mrs. Burke. I know that. In fact, I remember you saying something about a person would only be interesting under certain circumstances, one of which would be if they came in as a tourist and they applied a very short time before they = Mr. Nosenko. Oh uno. Mrs: Burke. And they were an add on to, for instance, the tour. Mrs. Burke. Now, from what that report shows, it shows that { Mr. Nosenko. Right. Right. ,. | | é | | {
(UP SECRET a Oswald received his visa in two days to come to the Soviet on" 2 | Union. So he would be automatically suspect, and he would be 3 | automatically what you would call an interesting person. @ 4 , Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no. In this case, you see, Oswald * even didn't receive a visa in United States; he received it 6 | passing through Europe. 7 i; Mrs. Burke. Through Helsinki? 8 | Mr. Nosenko. Right, in Finland, where it's process was 9 [easier than it will ‘be in the United States. He simply bought. 10 | tour and he received, managed to receive visa. i | Mrs. Burke. Let me just ask one other: thing. 12 | Didiyou tell them any of your, aside from the ideological, @.. 13 pry you wanted to defect? For instance, did you tell them an id anything about this promotion you thought you had when you went is |to, s was it, Gorki? 16. Mr. Nosenko. Yes. VW | Mrs. Burke. But then you -- 13 | Mr. Nosenko. No, I didn't tell them. I simply said that 19 \. position, because with me, it was documented, I lied. I 20 lease my position was Lieutenant Colonel. It wasn't true. It an twas false statement. The same false statement was concerning | . 22 | a, 73 Mrs. Burke. My time is up. May I just ask one jafter they had -- , : TOP SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 68 : | urecall telegram when I wanted to push the defection process. | ; | | | i | | 24 question? Were you upset when you didn't get your promotion | | | : |
(OP SECRET 8 t Mr. Nosenko. No, no ma'am. I still didn't receive it. | It was sent on signature. You see, they are signing, not immediately when they are received. Personnel Directorate gather -~in’from-all..over:‘the:: Soviet: Union,» fromialI¢KGBs.and ‘comment on signature to the Chairman, twice, three times a year. They were simply gathering in and didn't get enough ot 7 5 6 | materials. I do not know. Maybe it was signed in January. But 8 }up to my leaving, nobody informed me that it was signed. I .¢ | asanre ~- wasn't rejected. 10 | The Chairman. The time of the gentlewoman has. expired. Ji | Mr. Dodd? 12 | Mr. Dodd. thank you, Mr. Chairman. 2 13 I wonder if you might let me ask you -- let me start back oe id | nere, very quickly. One of the very first questions you were | 1S j asked Last night by Mr. Klein, was the way Mr. Klein worded 16 i the question, and I will ask you to expound on it if it is a 17 | correct recall on my part. | | 13 Mr. Klein asked you or stated that you arranged for your 20 you arranged for your transfer to that section. Is that an 21 flaccurate statement? Did you want to be in that section? Did you : | 22 specifically ask to be in that section? | ky 73 Mr. Nosenko. No, it wasn't accurate, it wasn't right. | 24 | arrangement was done in work form. I was working after finishing i Ww in Institute in GRU, Navy Intelligence, and being in 1952 New Year, | 7 | | { i | | | 19 tt to the American section of the KGB. He used the words | { | | | | t 1 ‘ H ]
HW 450955 J 4 5 é 8 10 | \ a) , aa | | | | : | | | : | | Boclda: 32277209 Page FO 4 accept you immediately. ‘TOP OcGRET =, in Moscow on New Year on a short leave, I was in company wheré it. was one of my friends with whom I studied at the Institute. | Homorkeasamcthe Ministry of Foreign Affairs. But his father- in-law was high ranked General of MGB;,.: in those years was called KGB, and he asked me what I am doing, this General. I said that I am working for the Navy Intelligence, GRU. Do you. like this work? | I said no, because I am not using what 1 received education. Would you like to work in MGB? I said, if it will be with the use of my disciplines which I studied at the Institute, why not? That is all. and in March after death of Stalin this general was appointed the First Deputy Minister of MGB of Beria. He remembered this | conversation and several days after death of Stalin I was recalled 1 to MGB which was called MVD in this period of time, in March of "53 and was assigned to Second Chief Directorate. This is what) true statement. Mr. Dodd. When you sent to the safe house or whatever it was in Geneva, in’ 1964, by your own admission you lied to the agent there in that you stated you had received a telegram issuing your recall back to the Soviet Union. Mr. Nosenko. Right. Mr. Dodd. Therefore, it was-‘that important that they
iUP SECRET 94 Mr. Dodd. Did they ask for a telegram? | Did you show anyone a telegram? Mr. Nosenko. No, sir; nO#* ‘sir. There wasn't any telegram. Mr. Nosenko. No, but, sir, what happened, I started to os meet them in January, had passed three, four, five, six, seven | 6 | days. I am afraid of that any moment my Chief of the Second 7 | Chief Directorate will be returning from France. 8 Mr. Dodd. I didn't ask you that, Mr. Nosenko. My question - | ts you is, were you asked whether or not you had a copy of 10 | the telegram that you had received from the Soviet Union? | WW Mr. Nosenko. And I -- if I was even asked I couldn't 12 \srve them because I cannot take it. It would be secret | 13 ll cable. . a ld Mr. Dodd. You have answered my question. _ You stated last night that -- and this might have been a | 16 | supposition on your part, but I am curious about it -- you stat VW [ent it was your feeling that the intelligence community in 13 I this country considered you a dispatched agent in 1962. Is 19 jf that something that you felt in 1962? 20 . Mr. Nosenko. No. It's -- | 21 | Mr. Dodd. A reflection back? ; n | Mr. Nosenko. A reflection back. No, no, sir. | e. a4 | Mr. Dodd. You, by your own statement, again have received | 2a some very rough treatment, inhuman treatment, to use your words ;| | My n living under spartan conditions, and I am sort of brushing over : TOP SECRET HY 50955 Bocld: 32277209 Page fi #4
TOP SECRET 95 | i 1 | this very quickly, between 1964 and 1969. Certainly you o* 2 | couldn't have been very pleased with the way you were being 3 | treated by a country that you had defected to and offered to ©. 4 give information to. So for a period of that '64, to '69, 5 | five years, you went through a rather rough period in your life? | Mr. Nosenko. Yes. 7 Mr. Dodd. Why did you go to work for somebody who treated g ij you Like that? | | Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I, even was five year there, I didn't 10 | consider that it was decision of the whole CIA. I didn't " consider that. --. ‘I didn't blame the whole CIA because it 12 | wasn't the question decided by the whole Agency. tt was a. 13 decided question by several persons who were I consider simply i a [an this period of time sick, mentally sick, not ill, but “as were simply in fear, in scare, in mania as if KGB penetrated 16 everything. 17 Mr. Dodd. Is it your statement to me that for five a years, while you were incarcerated in almost solitary confine- | ment, that you thought that this was the individual acts of a | | couple of employees of this Agency?. | a | Mr. Nosenko. Not employees. pO | | | Mr. Dod. Without the approval of the very highest | eo. a | authority in this Agency? Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I have seen Chief of Soviet Russia | Division, Mr. David Murphy. He was a high ranking man. It was HW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 72 T » Sronel i 24 | | { 1 |
OTOP SECRET | a5 f' even interrogates him, according to you, as to what exposure or ‘ his decision, decision of Mr. Angleton, decision of Mr. - 2 Murphy, and when they are coming to Director, and I know, from | my ite, they can report in’ thé way how they will report it, an @ 4 | the Director will accept because they are responsible people, 3 | they are sitting in this place. He is not going into details, 6 | he is not going and studying, he is not going himself visiting. 7. The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. | . 8 Mr. Sawyer? | | Mr. Sawyer. First, have you received any compensation \ 10 | for the period during:.which you were held in jail? "| Mr. Nosenko. I received in several years later, I put 12 | the quéstion, I want to be paid for every year which T was | e . - 13 unlawfully. arrest, the amount of money which we have. agreed, 14 | with taken taxes and whatever American citizens are paying. as! Mx. Sawyer. Did you get that? : 16 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, and on this sum of money 1 bought | v| the house. al 1a | Mr. Sawyer. I see. | I will tell you what bothers -me about your testimony, very 2 | frankly. You stated that they would be very interested in a | 21 | member of the American intelligence community that they could | | oS 22 | even compel to defect. Here you had a willing defector, a guy | e. 13 : who said that undoubtedly that he didn't like America, and | 24 that he did like Russia, and he wants to defect, and nobody | | | | _ a 50955, Docld:32277209 Page 73 TOP SEGRE! .
| {UP SECNET is, experience he had, He might have worked in the missile silos, in Marine Corps, he finished his years of service. | - 2 ' might have done anything, but nobody asked him, and that he . 3 | lives there for a period of, a long period of time. Here is a @. 4 | guy that is totally willing co talks. It is not like approachin 5 i somebody who doesn't want to talk to you or that might not want 6 | to talk to you. And here is a fellow who was a radar operator, 7 experienced to some degree, and I don't know to what degree, | 8 |} but apparently the Russians don't know to what degree either, | because nobody asked him, 10 | but they didn't ask him even about that, and it is very rare * to have one come. | 2 | Tt have Listened to Radio Free Cuba, where they air all Ga. 13 | kinas of propaganda, and this guy would have been certainly oe id || good for propaganda when he loved Russia and hated the United as States. and I just, with those circumstances, I very frankly | 16 find it almost impossible to believe that they did not ov thoroughly interrogate him at least. ra | Mr. Nosenko. They never considered him an. interesting | target. It was known that he served in Marine Corps. a Mr. Sawyer. What I am getting at, how did they know [een he was an interesting target when they never even asked : - 2 | Mr. Nosenko. They judging by what they know about him e. ic] | what in questionnaire he filled and plus what they found out 24 Exon interpreter on him. He said to interpreter, he served
j | Mr. Sawyer. But he might have been a cryptographer in the CO 2 || Marine Corps. He might have been as an enlisted man, he J might have been a cryptographer and know all our codes and @. 4 || code methodology that might help break codes and that sort of | ’ thing, but nobody ever asked him. That is what I don't under- 6 || stand. And I can't believe it, very frankly. Mr. Nosenko. I understand, sir, but I am telling you he g8 | wasn't considered interesting target, and -- | Mr. Sawyer. But they didn't have any facts to know | 10 | whether he was interesting, and here is a guy that wants to | al talk to them. 12 Mr. Nosenko. But the judgment made on each person to work oO. 13 actively against him on the basis of his questionnaire. If me 14} in questionnaire will be said he is, let's say, professor, 5 | teacher, let's say he is working for the government, any 16 department, but for the Federal Government, or he is an officer 17 sure, on him will be paid attention. 18 | Mr. Sawyer. Well, all right, we can drop that for a | minute. 20 | But now, he got a visa in two days in Finland. I happen 2] to have been in Finland four years ago and wanted to get a | . 22 visa, a sort of a last minute decision, to go to Leningrad, and e. 94 I was told there is a minimum of 30 days before you can get a | | 44 | visa. Now, to issue him a visa in two days for Russia, that is very unusual, apparently, so they must have had some | i | | : | = 7 SECRET [Nae 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page To Tf
TOP SECRET interest in getting him there. © 99°, Mr. Nosenko. Sir, what I know, there wasn't any interest to get him. “He managed to get this visa. Mr. Sawyer. all right. | , ‘The other thing I am curious about is when they interrogated you so carefully here, why sofieone like Oswald, a known defecto and who could well have been now a Russian intelligence agent, comes back to the country, apparently CIA .or FBI, or nobody paid a bit of attention to him, andilet him wander around the country with a Russian wife at will. I have used up my time. The Chaixman. Okay. The time of the gentleman has \ expired. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Fithian. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, as I piece it together, there are four possibilities for this Committee to believe. Let me sketch & Lg ) ~~ ‘ : for) oO oo “sd On in = 3 Bh ane . _ = = = a _. ot ined 17 1g | out what those possibilities are. 19 One, that you told the truth in 1964, but you are now 29 || misleading this Committee. 5] Two, that you told an untruth _in 1964, basically your 22 statements in 1964 were not true,;.but you are telling the eruth | s4 | Three, that in fact you were dispatched here by the KGB, | | a 25 ( or the Soviet Government, because of apparent but unreal | od | | | HW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 76 RA SECRET an -
‘ 24 | ae | H WP SEGRE connections between the Soviets and Oswald and the assassinatio 100 of President Kennedy. Obviously the USSR would need this for obvious reasons. They would badly need this for all sorts of international reasons. And finally, the fourth option is that. you were dispatched here by the Soviet Government and the KGB because there was an actual connection between the KGB and the assassinationnof” President Kennedy. These are the items which I have picked up in the last two days that..would -tend to lead some peopie to believe the | last of the four, or at least the third to the last of the four, either that the KGB dispatched you here.because they needed it for political reasons, though they were:not involved, or they dispatched you here because in fact they did collaborate with First, Oswald goes to Russia. You say he is rejected, but they grant him a pension, however small. Second, they grant him the pleasures of a hunting club, even though you said earlier he was mentally unbalanced, and you are allowing him to use a gun. Three, they allowed him to marry in Russia. Now, in -- not talking about the time when you were under stress and incarcerated, but just talking about the two Four, they gave him a. job. 7 Loe | { oO - ee months prior to that -- the FBI questioning, and the prearrest . i { | | | t HW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 77 . age or Cre |
HW 50955 year or a couple of. times a year, or three times between i Docld: 32277209 ' Page 7a _ ; TOP SEC been interrogated. No reasonable person can believe that story story makes no sense. The rejection of Oswald's offer to defect makes absolutely “no sense to me. Mr. Sawyer has’ just pursued that momentarily. I think. tha can be rejected by us, by reasonable people, prima facie. I see “ho reason to accept that. part of your story whatsoever. The exposition, taking you off to WOrry about the exposi~ tion, and so forth, was demonstrated a fraud. No reprisals against your family. Nobody was working “4 Jp against Oswald, you said, yet later on you said you had seven to eight large files, you only read the first portion of one file. You said no KGB ever ‘talked to Oswald regarding letting him defect. The ‘reason you gave us for that was that h slashed his wrists and you concluded he was. unstable. Yet prior to that discovery of his instability, you granted hima visa . -in two days and he asked to be permitted to defect prior to Slashing his wrists, and therefore you had to make the decision ‘prior. to slashing his writs, prior to knowing that he slashed his wrist, that you were going to reject him. That doesn't hold: water either. . Finally, you said in your testimony American defection was very rare. “All the more reason, if it only. happens once every . fs and '59, it is totally incredible to me that he would not have. |
TGP SEGRET > . 102 You said he was not interesting, you were not interested in him, the KGB rejected him. .Despite that, you were "recruiting right and left all kinds: of people..to assist in the espionage operation." ) a a ask me any question? 5. Now, all of these things, Mr. Nosenko, leads: me to be. 7 6 | very, very disturbed by your story because it simply just on the ] face of what you told us Last night and tonight, can't possibly ; 8 | be true. | | | | | In the first place, you remember too much now. You remember 10 | too much in the way of details after 15 years. Therefore, I _l1 | have great difficulty accepting any of your story. 12 We as a Committee of the United states Congress are charge >. 13 | with trying to assess what actually happened in the assassinatian oe id lor president Kennedy . That is the central story. You have not is [helped us very much. You have confused the issue. In fact, | 16 | by your testimony you have led at least this member to wonder W7 | snetnes or not you are still working with.the KGB. 138 : The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. ; 19 I will permit the witness to answer. | Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Congressman said his opinion. Do you | | | aay a 22 Mr. Fithian. I would just like to have you tell me why I ‘- 3 shouldn't believe that you were dispatched here by the KGB, 24 | in the light of just: thecpoints I am making, in the light of the enormous differences, not in the CIA interrogation under ‘ i \ il ott if if Pope ay aes HY 50955 pocta:39277909 Page 79 - TOP SEGRE. | | | | |
UP SECRET to duress, but in the earlier period when you were not under that The Chairman. . The time of the gentleman has expired. kind of duress. It doesn't wash with me. Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if you want me to defend myself, I can say only one thing. I never done from the first day in the United States anything directed against this country. I tried ‘before I has come, when I contacted '62 the GIA, and has come in 64, I tried to get as much as possible information. . I | am the source who told concerning existence of microphones in 10 | American embassy in Moscow. I am the man who have given, I * Jaen know , 300 cases -- af Mr. Fithian. We are only concerned -- &. 13 *. The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. | me id : Mr. Edgar. as! Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 16 | It is very hard to follow Mr. Fithian's comments because | W7 [2 would like to shift gears a little bit. BUt you indicated 12 | Lo our Chairman that you now act as a consultant to the CIA. 19 | Is that your only job? | | so Mr. Nosenko. It is the only job. | , 21 | Mr. Edgar. In the course of acting as consultant to the | | 29 Jom, do you have access to talking with CIA employees from time eo. "3 | to time who contact you and who assist you and protect you and 24 | give you some of the direction for your consulting? Mr. Nosenko. Yes. ee wv snoss voctasssiney oa vo TOP. SECRET oe nD, : |
Mr. Edgar. Have you ever been ina conversation with any a 2 | of the agents of the CIA about who might have been responsible 3] for having you detained on April 4th ,~s2¢s0 @. 4 . Mr. Nosenko. No. ; 5 Mr. Edgar. -- 1964. 6 Mr. Nosenko. No. ; Mr. Edgar. You’ indicated earlier you thought it was a man 8 | by the name of Murphy. | Mr. Nosenko. Murphy, Chief of Soviet, former Chief of 10 | Suviet Russian Division, and Chief of Counterintelligence, 1 | former Chief of Counterintelligence of the CIA Mr. Angleton 2 because it cannot without him be decided. ° ea. 13: Mr. Edgar. “Do you know of any other KGB agents or other No! id | defectors who were held in those very same conditions? - is Mr. Nosenko. No, I do not know. i 16 Mr. Edgar. Were there any other prisoners held nearby. wT that you could hear or -- ak Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I was in solitary absolutely «| continenene no prisoner, nobody I could see. so Mr. Edgar. Yet you are still willing to be a consultant 31 the CIA? | 22 | Mr. Nosenko. I am ~~ no. Sir, I am consultant only on oe. “4 | ene base, on my knowledge what I know about counterintelligence * [oon of the KGB. (4 25 “Mr. Edgar. Well, you lve suggested to the Committeeithat HW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 81 . cn your statements given to the CIA in 1964 cannot be considered
HW 450955 reliable because the statements were given under duress, and 105 prior to our recess a’ few moments ago you indicated that you felt that the tapes and the FBI and the CIA interrogations of '64, '65, and '66 should not be considered as reliable statements. Is that not correct? . Mr. Nosenko. Yes, because I considered the whole arrest was unlawful, without due process of law, illegal arrest, what was the finding as unlawful by Rockefeller Commission. Mr. Edgar. Thank you. 10 | a an 7 You were held under those spartan conditions and you 1 indicated that those ‘statements would have to.be unreliable. 2 | Now, I have three specific questions, then, to ask you. — \ 1d Have you ever told the CIA that these statements could 1s not be considered reliable? 16 | Mr. Nosenko. Sure, when we started, they change the 17 situation, they moved me from spartan conditions, started to 13 | talk with me as a human being, to treat me as a human being. . Mr. Edgar. Did you go on a point by point correction of 20 any of those statements you previously made? an! | Mr. Nosenko. It wasn't in the form of simply returning 22 | to document, it was case by case, whatever concerns me, my | biography, my work, whatever cases I knew, whatever cases I 2 was involved, all questions were raised by 20, 30 times each © | case, when it was reevaluation of all information given by me. Ww in
UP SEGRE 406 Mr. Edgar. And it is your testimony that after 1967, '68, 7 when those interrogations took place, you gave accurate, 3 || truthful statements? . , | 4 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, whatever and how good I recollect, 3S |} at the best.. 6 Mr. Edgar. And those statements of '67-'68 should be 7 | considered by this Committee as the absolute truth?.- 8 Mr. Nosenko. ‘Right. 9 Mr. Edgar. And nothing but the truth. 10 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, yes, sir. Mr. Edgar.- And it is clear to you that all the questions | | | | | 12 || that were raised about Oswald were also raised in 1967 and '68? Mr. Nosenko.- Everything was raised in this period. id Mr. Edgar. If, then, this Committee discovers inconsis- ig |tencies in your statements that you made in 1967 and '68, 16 | after your incarceration and the illegal period that you M7 ‘talk about, if we find inconsistencies between that statement 3 and the statements you gave us last night and tonight, which | 19 | should we believe? : | 20 Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if -- you must believe -- not you must + | | | 9 to me by Mr. Klein a question, that I said when I said concernin Oswald, I did not mention physical surveillance. It is a big operation. It is nothing big in the KGB to put under surveil- 21 ie is up to you what you believe. But, sir, let's say was read | ; i | | | i flance Soviet or foreigner, or to control telephone conversationsi © : i | | | | “aw 50955 pocta:32277209 Page 833 TOP . SEGRET
HW 450955 107 Voor correspondence. I could maybe something miss, you see, 2 | when I mentioning. I do not have such a brilliant, brilliant 3 | mind that immediately Like photographic memory, immediately. 4 | return word and word. I simply was describing that it wasn't 5 active work, that there wasn't planned recruitment, there 6 | wasn't planned approachment, contact. There was type of 7 | passive work which is called in KGB to watch him and what is it): 8 agents, control of correspondénce, and explaining this, I | simply, I could miss that he was under surveillance. 10 | You can return to this and tell me, uh-huh, you told in '6 "| you didn't mention that he was under surveillance. It is not 2 a contradiction. 13 The Chairman. TRe time of the gentleman has expired. 14 | Mr. Nosenko, in reply to Mr. Sawyer's question, you: ‘is [indicates you were ‘paid for the period of time that you were 16 | undex arrest, that it was.a lump sum payment I suppose? V7 | Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. | 13 I The Chairman. What amount of money was that? | Mr. Nosenko. Something about, oh, about $80,000... | | The Chairman. About $80,000? | a | Mr. Nosenko. Yes. | 22 | The Chairman. Any other sum in addition to that were | 93 you paid? | . | 24 Mr. Nosenko. I':think I received about $15,000 or $20,600 28 ' when I started on my own to live, to buy furniture. I received, ; poor: 32277209 Page 4 10? SECRET
108 yes, in the beginning, in '69, in April. But this lump I pO: received: in '70, '71. ‘71. a week, approximately, Besides traveling . when:.they. are — 3 | The Chairman. So that the record is clear, you received 2 | 4] $80,000 for the period of time’ you were ‘under arrest. 3 Mr. Nosenko. Right. 6 The Chairman. In order to get started again, you vere 7 || given an additional $15,000, and that was in’1969. 8 Mr. Nosenko. Right. | The Chairman. Since 1969, to the present time, you have 3) aac so -- "| Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no, Sir. 12 | The Chairman. Would you -- @. 13 ! ‘Mr. Nosenko. They started, when they released me they mo i4 | started to pay me in the beginning 916,000. Then they raised is each year, $2000, two anda half thousand were raises. I only | 16 | received $35,000 this year, '78, from October of '77, approxi- v| mately. a The Chairman. From October '77 to the present time you 19 | received $35,000.. 20 | Mr. Nosenko. Right. | The Chairman. Can you give us some indication of how man a | ane you have worked during 1978? e. 73 | Mr. Nosenko. Well, I am working at home . besides coming 2 here when they needme, at least twice a month, «and spending . | | A | : | ; 3 ie HW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 85 a o f eGR al
HW 450955 | 109 1 sending me the last few years abroad to talk with friendly 2 I | Iam also working at home on my own. 3 I am studying Soviet periodicals, Soviet magazines, Soviet 4 newspapers. I am making certain researches, I am trying hot to 5 lose+ what is going on, what changes taking place in policy. 6 The Chairman. Would it be fair to say that you sort of 7 |} set your time and that no one else sets your time? 3 Mr. Nosenko. When I am out of this area, yes, at home, | I am myself setting time. 10 | The Chairman. And during the last year, how many weeks | would you say you have spent here at the Agency? 12 | Mr. Nosenko. Not at the Agency. They are meeting me in 13 | other places. I am very rare visiting this place, only if they| id ! invite me for a lecture or about KGB counterintelligence. But 1s | I am meeting them when I am in this area, under certain 16 : conditions, in certain places where they need me. v Well, one month; twice I am coming. Let's say I am a spending about 12, 13 days a month here, it can be in some 19 cases seven, eight days a month, but in main the last period | of time I am coming, the last years, I am coming almost | 31 | twice a month. | 2 | The Chairman. For how long? | 3 Mr. Nosenko. For a week, five, six days. | 24 | The Chairamn. My time has expired. 25 Mr. Preyer? ge octa:32277209 Page 86 TG? SEGRET
ss 22 73 24 110 Mr. Preyer. Mr. Nosenko, your testimony” has*been:considere a Major piece of evidence, and was so considered by the Warren nation of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I think the key part of your testimony that we are concerned with, not so much the question about ‘any inconsistencies in it, but are you right on the big question, namely, was Lee Harvey Oswald a KGB agent? I want to mention, I have been a little surprised by your itestimony, bythe gaps in your knowledge of Oswald, and really how little you knew about him. For example, when he went to Minsk, he was tranferred out of your oversight, I take it, and ya8 I understood you, you did not know he was married until peer on, and did not know he had gone back to the United } States. i Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Congressman, if I was staying and sent file on Oswald in Minsk, I would ‘iknow, but I was working in First American Department. Mr. Preyer. Right. Now, I am not questioning you about. that. The question I wonder, that that brings to my mind is, te | | ; known it? In other words, if you didn't even know he was — | Imarried, didn't even know he had gone to the United States, jcouldn't he have been a KGB agent in that period without your yo hnowledge, or are you certain -- \ } TOP SeGRel HW 50955 Baoclad: 32277209 Page of a Tid hee work:ing '60 and '61 period in the same Seventh Department which if Oswald-had been a KGB agent, are you certain yeu would have > Commission as rebutting any Russian connection with the assassi-
| * lll: 7 Mr. Nosenko. No, I couldn't,- you are absolutely right, I wt couldn't know. But in:'63 when happened assassination of | | the President, when it was mentioned that Oswald shot the @. 4 : President, when it start, demanded the file back from Minsk, ° | when started conversation with Minsk, started in KGB. investi- 6 | gation, detailed approach. “This is what -- i | Mr. Preyer. So you convinced that seeing the first ‘sectio -- 8 Mr. Nosenko. Seeing thé first section in’ which the most | | important material in the whole file will be this in first 10 | . ae | | m | section of the first volume. | 1 | Mr. Preyer. Were. the rest of the sections of. that file, 7 incidentally, wire ~~ telephone taps? ah oo OB | _ Mr. Nosenko.° Tt will be information from agents in | 14 | second part. In third part will be from télephone conversa- 1s) tions, from survedliance. In fourth part, photocopies of al ; 16 | different mail, when they checking Soviet connections, Soviet ‘V | friends of Oswald. | | | 1a | Mr. Preyer. “Well, on this question of your knowledge | 19 | of Oswald and being in position to know about him, you knew sole 20 | the cablegram from Mexico yet you aid not know he had gone back a5 the United States. Is that because you had moved too | | 22 Mr. Nosenko. _Again, I returned in Seventh Department i Dont I was working '62, '63, up to '64 in Seventh Department 24 | and the cablegram has come in Seventh Department. Seventh | ; as | vepartment was started against Oswald in '59. - : | HW 50955 DocId:32277209. Page 88 - : A Lo a
| 112. 1 Mr. Preyer. Have you read a lot about the Oswald case ~~ 2} in recent years? _ | 3 Mr. Nosenko. Well, I read several books, what appeared. @. 4 | I only didn't read the last book which was written about Marina / 1 Oswald by Mrs. Priscilla Johnson. Why? Because I knew 6 || that I would appear here, that the staff of your -- your 7 | staff will be talking with me. I didn't wanted something to g | get -- I can, you know, mix what I knew and something to use | what I got from the book. 10 Mr. Preyer. I just wondered if you had read about the " Mexican cable, and perhaps through the : years may have been -- 12 | Mr. Nosenko. No, I never have seen that it was mentioned © | 13 Mexican cable. I have seen that he visited Mexico, in Mexico Be 14 | visited Soviet and Cuban embassies. This I have seen in books, ig | this fact. iH 16 | Mr. Preyer. If I have got one more moment, Mr. Chairman, in | to change the subject, one of the things that struck me is a that when you defected, as Mrs. Burke mentioned, in Geneva, | in 1964, very shortly after the Kennedy Assassination, I get | the impression that the CIA or American forces to whom you 21 | detected did not have much to say about the assassination or 3 | vas not ~*~ oe. +3 ! Mr. Nosenko. They are -- I mentioned must be Oswald, the 2 asked. But they were asking different, whatever cases I can | ce . a 25 | immediately give them, names, when recruited, his position, HW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 89 TOP Srokel
| anyone from the Soviet Embassy here in Washignton? Mr. Nosenko. Only in 1964, the Soviet Embassy in foes “Washington: demanded to see me after defection.: 3 ay 3 1 from what country, this they were interested, as much as possible i 2 | to.take this type of information. They asked me about Oswald. - 3 TI told. .them what I knew. . . oa. 4 The Chairman The ;time of the gentleman has expired. | - 8 Mr. Devine. 6 Mr. Devine. I don't want to know where you live, but 7 || do you reside in the general area of the nation's capital? 8 Mr. Nosenko. I was living in this area up to 19 -- middle - of 1973, but FBI gentlemen -- I didn't mention , L also meeting! 10 | FBI people when I am here, not only CIA, but they are not paying . 7 | meanything. FBI people inform me that they have information 0 | that KGB trying to locate me.. Then it happened in the area @ 13 | where I was living in Maryland up to 1973, I was ina _ id shopping center, and on me was coming a Soviet from KGB. I kne i his face, and this whole -- I immediately reported this and | 16 | we decided that for me better to move from the area where wl Soviet diplomats, KGB officer working under cover of diplomats 12 ) are freely traveling and can spot me. 1s | Mr. Devine. That person didn't recognize you? | Mr. Nosenkeo. I immediately turned and went, turned my bac 31 | and went in another direction. 2 Mr. Devine. Have you been contacted or in touch with | | | | | i | | { HWY 50955 DBocld: 32277209 Page 90
TOP SECR a] ‘114 i | Mr. Devine. Did you see them? ~ 2 Mr. Nosenko. Yes, in the State Department, in presence 3 lof American diplomats, I have seen for five, say seven o 4 minutes, Consul from Soviet Embassy and interpreter, another 5 ‘diplomat. 6 Mr. Devine. What did they want with you? 7 Mr. Nosenko. - They ask me how could I do it, and do I 8 understand the ‘importance of this thing, that I defected from 9 | the country, and I said, gentlemen, nobody pushed me on this 1C i question, it is absolutely my own decision, and decision of free will, which I made long ago, and without any return. Then they iZ-told me now we know how to treat you, and what do you think fabout your Soviet citizenship. 14! I said, it's automatically, :I am rejecting its I do 1§ jnot need, And on this I finished conversation. 1 i Mr. Devine. They made no threats of reprisals against A7 Ivous family back there? 13 | Mr. Nosenko. No, no. They later only, Mr. Congressman, i$ ithey later sent two letters, one from wife and another from 20 ly mother. These letters were delivered by them. They visi ter 31 lamexican embassy in Moscow and had left these two letters. ath re 22 lonese letters were sent by American embassy in Moscow to | | | | ’ : i iState Department, State Department had given to CIA, CIA had | | : jigiven me these letters. I answered one short note that my | fo . | | | 25 decision is final, decision ideological and in spite of all UP SECRET HW 50955 DBocla: 32277209 Page 31 7
VU? S£ORET Mrs. Burke. I have just a few random questions. You ; 1 my love to the family, and in spite of my respect to the on 2 | memory of the father, I can repeat that if, he was alive I would 3 | also would do the same, that is all. | o 4 | Mr. Devine. Getting back to one of Mr. Stoke’ s questions : about the amount of money paid to you for your years of 6 incarceration, the fact that they gave you $15,000 or $20,000 ; which you used for furniture and so forth, were there any 8 | strings tied to either of those funds, the $80, 000 or the subse | a quent amount? ry Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, no. "| Mr. Devine. That you would not contact the pressor 12 || anybody else about this? afte 12 | Mr. Nosenko. No, it never was mentioned, never. ia : . Boe 4 i Mr. Devine. No strings attached? | 1s | Mr. Nosenko. No. 16 | Mr. Devine. Finally, do you have any knowledge of any. | connection with Oswald and the assassination of President 13 | Kennedy? 19 | Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. 2 | Mr. Devine. From your connections in the KGB at that timed a1 | Mr. Nosenko. Whatever I said, nothing more. I do not Z 7 . 45 | K ing. e 22 | now anything a 44 The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. Ne . | . : | 34 | Mrs. Burke. | { |
. fe ees oz = SN 35 H | i i i i } cy HW 450955 pocta:32277209 Page 933 | Tap SECRET fur Scune | ; 1160 mentioned Priscilla Johnson's book.:..Did-you by. any. chance while you were working in the American tourist area, did you have any occasion to investigate her coming to Russia or did she come during any of that time as a student? Mr. Nosenko. Priscilla Johnson? Mrs. Burke. Yes. Mr. Nosenko. Why, yes, her name, she was a correspondent in Moscow working, and KGB didn't like her dispatches and they made very, very rude operations against her. They -- Mrs. Burke. What did they do. Mr. Nosenko. Hh? Mrs. Burke. What did they do to her? Mr. Nosenko. Well, they wanted to get rid of her from the Soviet Union. They didn't see possibility to recruit her. “The didn't see any possibility to find or to create compromising situation. They didn't like her dispatches which they were anti-Soviet. Then they decided to get rid of her, and they made such an operation in restaurant where she had dinner in evening. They put drugs in her liquor, which she was drinking, wine: or vodka or whatever it would be, and she was absolutely ~ drunk. And she was delivered in local regional, one of the regional little -- it's not clinic, it is where they deliver. drunks to spend night. And they put her there and made photo Pictures of her being drunk and other women drunk laying there and published an article and put even a picture. And surely cee tn et An nm Se et
BW 50955 Baoclda: 32277209 Page 94 she was immediately recalled by her agency or her newspapers fo which she was working. Mrs. Burke. Do you think that is the wrong Priscilla . Johnson? | Mr. Edgar. If the gentlewoman would yield, are you sure that you are talking about the sames person? Mr. Nosenko. Priscilla Johnson, yes, this correspondent, yes. Mrs.Burke. Let me ask you one other question. When she was there, did she interview Oswald? Mr. Nosenko. I know it is now reading here the books. I didn't know that she interviewed. I only found out it with living in the United States, with reading books. Mrs. Burke. That she interviewed him. That didn't show in your file? Mr. Nosenko. I didn't read her book -- this is what in some other books mentioned that she had interviewed him. “Mrs. Burke. Let me_ ask again about Oswald in Minsk, and first of all, can American tourists go to Minsk easily? Mr. Nosenko. Minsk is open city, yes. > Mrs. Burke. It is an open city now. Was it an open city then? Mr. Nosenko. Yes. Mrs. Burke. And when he was there, of course, I realize that you don't know and you did not keep up with what he was TOP SECRET
doing there, but in reading that file, in the first few was not -- Mr. Nosenko. Yes. on 2 pages or anything, did you notice anything in terms of his 7 3 |} contacts with Americans, or did you notice anything at all @. 4 | that was extrardoinary about him? 7 5 Mr. Nosenko. No, there wasn't. For the whole his period 6 Pot time there wasn't found any: indication on suspicion, 7 || Suspicious meetings or anything suspicion concerning his contacts g | with Americans. 9 | Mrs. Burke. Let me -- As I understand it, it was fairly 10 | routine that everyone's phone would be tapped, so that that | | Mrs. Burke. -- your information that that would be ~— i ee pre anemone nothing unusual. preter. I do not remember name. ; | { i 1s | You know, there is one thing that is bothering me, and 16 [that is the inconsistency and the greater detail that is presen 17 | toaey than in your earlier statements. 1a | Could you give-us an explanation of why there is more de- 9 | cai today? | For instance, in your earlier statements I noticed you | a | Fefex to the interpreter as a tourist, the tourist guide, as: | | just.a tourist guide or an interpreter? Today you referred | | e. “4 ly name to that person. And again, the two psychiatrists -- | ~ 24 Mr. Nosenko. I don't know. even now name of this inter- | | i | BY 50955 BDocld: 32277209 Page 95 ; ye ae ET
119 1 Mrs. Burke. I see. I thought -- ao 2 . Mr. Nosenko.. Interpreter, I never mentioned. 3 | Mrs. Burke . You never ‘meritioned the interpreter? Cc 4 | Mr. Nosenko. No. I do “not remember her name. - / Mrs. Burke. It was just this officer Rastrusin? P Mr. Nosenko. Officer, yes. 7 Mrs. Burke. He was -- but he was the one that found -- 3 wasn't he the one that found Oswald? - | Mr. Nosenko. No, this is the officer who reported about 9 | | 1 | Mrs. Burke. He reported it, but he didn't find him? 7) Mr. Nosenko. No, no, interpreter found him with ry 14 | administration of the hatel where Oswald was staying. , 14 Mrs. Burke. Oh, I see. st Mr. Nosenko. ' You see, interpreter has come in the | “46 | noxning to take him or has come to take him to city, to show © VY je as interpreter on a guide; on a tour. And she was waiting 3 |about 20, 25, 30 minutes and was concerned. 9 | . The Chairman. Time is up. (One more. 20 | Mrs. Burke. All -; right, sust one more question. 2 21 | When Oswald arrived, then, he didn't speak very much > 4 2 Russian, is that right? e. “5 | Mr. Nosenko. No. Ididn't hear that he spoke in Russian. a 7A | Mrs. Burke. I see. Were there any notations at all in th ne | file -- what is your understanding of his fluency in Russian on os | ; ay e& ma 8 , HW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 96 . . TUP SECRET en () eae
HY 0955 ah during the time of his stay? 2 _ Mr. Nosenko. Well, during time of his stay surely he 3 |} started a little bit to talk, but it wasn't very, it wasn't 4 | good Russian. It wasn't even -- 5 The Chairman. The time of the gentlewoman has expired. 6 Mrs. Burke. Thank you. The Chairman... Mr. Dodd. . a Mr. Dodd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. $ | E would like to just pick up on that line of questioning, 10 as I could, with you, Mr. Nosenko. " Correct me-if I am wrong, but as I understand it, Oswald, 2 you were aware of Oswald's desire to defect. There was a 13 [Cectston and in fact he was informed through his Intourist id | guide that his request had been rejected. 1§ : Iss-thats:correctsso/far?~ 16 ! Mr. Nosenko.— Is in general, but it wasn't in this ways 17 | tou to him. It was in so-called, you know, soft manner. It | was explained to him by through Intourist -- 19 | Mr. boda. That he would have to go through his embassy? a Me Nosenko. Yes, that Intourist not dealing with this iF 21 | question. He must go through this, this, this procedures. 4 Mr. Dodd. Okay. which was involved with tourism? : | i t t Now, you, at the time of this, of Oswald's request, you | : were working in the Seventh Department of the Second Directorate
1 Mr. Nosenko. Right. Mr. Dodd. Okay. Could you tell me what would be the 3 || normal operating procedures within the Soviet Union if a | tourist were involved, say, in a car accident with an Intourist guide. Say a Frenchman was involved in a car accident. Assumi g in it was not his fault, someone hit him, what happens? Do 7 | they notify immediately the French Embassy, what steps do they g | take in order to deal with that individual? 9 Mr. Nosenko. I would assume, sir, that he will be, I¢ | Sure, he immediately will be taken inpolyclinic, will be informe | 7 nis embassy. 2 Mr .iDodd. Those kind of steps. & 13 Mr. Nosenko. Right. _ 1d | Mr. Dodd. If you had made. a decision that! ‘Oswald should i] | yg not be accepted in the Soviet Union, and if you find him in | jis room with his wrist slit, why don't you then contact the | ae ka ke him to the hospital, you would notify the embassy. Why i | i i] \ HW 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 98 | I 16 | a q7 American Embassy and notify them that you have an American on | 1g jyour hands who just tried to kill himself? | 19 Mr. Nosenko. Sir, he wasn't an employee of American | mbassy | | | | | Mr. Dodd. He was a tourist, though. | 2 Mr.Nosenko. A tourist. | , e. a3 | Mr. Doda. And I just ‘asked you about a Frenchman who might ue pee a tourist and get in a car accident, and you said you would | | |
{OP SECRET don't you take Mr. Oswald to the hospital and notify the - American embassy? Nosenko. Nobody knew that he would cut wrist. Mr. Dodd. No, but you found him with his wrist cut. Mr. Nosenko. Right. He was delivered in hospital Mr. Dodd. Why didn't you notify the American embassy? Mr. Nosenko. He wasn't dying, he wasn't serious, they made transfusion and put stitches. It is -- I am telling what I think. why it was. ¢ 10 Mr. Dodd. You understand my problem here. You have got 4] someone who you don't want to accept him. You have already made a decision that he shouldn't be allowed to defect. You walk into his room and find him with his wrist slit, it would oom a : ° a —" : nN Oo oo “ res ln de us i) =a aan tee ST L | | 14 seem to. me that this guy has already indicated just. by that ac ig i alone that he is not playing with a full deck of cards, and | 16 you decide then that you are going to accept him because you 7 : are worried that it might cause some embarrassment after Camp 18 | Davia. 19 | Mr. Nosenko. No. But the question to inform the. Embassy, 40 | it must be passing through such stage. Intourist itself seme va | contact the American Embassy. 39 _ . Mr. Dodd. No, obviously. | — 3 Mr. Nosenko. No. They must contact their Minister of 24 Foreign Trade which ‘in its turn putting question to Ministry oe HW 50955 Bocld: 322377209 Page 939 g i § a it | i | | 1 i i { i i { i | F Foreign Affairs, and Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Soviet | |
time we've got. You knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine? Mr. Nosenko. Yes. Mr. Dodd. You knew by. your answer to Mrs. Burke's questio a minute ago that Oswald had a student's knowledge of Russian? | 123 Union can contact the embassy. Mr. Dodd. LEt me jump onto something else quickly in the Mr. Nosenko. When he was living-in Minsk, not before, \ were, not aware or your department was not aware that he had 9 before he has come. No. 10 Mr. Dodd. You didn't know that? nN Mr. Nosenko. No, when he was living in Minsk, when he 12 was in daily contact with Soviets working at the plant and | 13 having friends. . ~~ 14 Mr. Dodd. Did you know that he had been a student of | 1S Marxism? | | 16 Mr. Nosenko. No. AZ Mr. Dodd. Did you know that he had given the U.S. 13 embassy his notice to defect? 19 Mr. Nosenko. No. I know that he visited embassy and | . 20 after was, he was told that he will be allowed to stay, after | 2) this. | : a 22 } Mx. Dodd. You were not aware at that time that he con- | mie "3 tacted through Intourist and eventually your office and made | 24 | it known that he intended to defect or wanted to defect, you | an | | | | HW 50955 Bocld: 32277209 Page i100 2 TOP SeGRei °
HOP SEGHET - 124 already notified the American embassy that he intended to | defect? Mr. Nosenko.. No, no, no, sir. = ° Mr. Dodd. You were not aware of that. Mr. Nosenko. No. He wasn't under surveillance... We didn't know. When he was going alone without interpter, we didn't know. | | Mr. Dodd. I didn't ask you how you know. I just asked you whether or not ~~ he didn't tell you that? Mr. Nosenko. No. Nobody from KGB talked with him. » The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. ' Mr. sawyer? | | Mr. Sawyer. When Congressman Devine asked you how you knew your family was okay or that they hadn't invoked any reprisals, I didn't get the answer. . Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I asked Mr. Solie in '69, '70, once I asked, anything about my family? Mr. Sawyer. Mr. who? Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Bruce Solie, CIA officer who was in | “contact with me, '69, '70. He answered me that they are all right, everything okay. But he didn't went in any detail -and I never returned more to this question. But there is anotyer point, sir. pesides the father's position, after he died, she was receiving, she received pension, and besides that,. for | | | | the years -- _ | |
125. Mr. Sawyer. How did you know she died? | Mr. Nosenko. In Russian Institute. - 2 Mr. Nosenko. “Father died, I said. Father died in 1956. - 3 | After father's death she received a pension. @. 4 Mr. Sawyer. I understand. You went through that before. 8 I noticed here though, when he slashed his wrist, the 6 psychiatric examination report, here by the doctor says the 7 patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian, 8 SO he must have spoken Russian, you know, to. whatever degree, | - when he went there. I thought you said you were always . 10 | interested in someone who can speak Russian or has studied 1 | anything Russian. 12 | Mr. Nosenko.- Who specializes in any field of Russia, | Fe) 13 | who will be working for the United States government. | Ce 4 Mr. Sawyer. But here is a guy at that time, when he cis ig | came there, within a matter of days after, the doctor says the 1 ! patient apparently understands the. questions asked in Russian. | q7 | Mr. Nosenko. Sir --. | 13 | Mr. Sawyer. That would have keyed interest right there, 19 : wouldn't ite | Mr. Nosenko. Sir, if ve knew that he studied in Columbia | a University, in Yale University = 2 | My. Sawyer. Well, it says right -- | i | Mr. Sawyer. It says on the report, this was on the 21st hw in we. or the 23rd or 25th of October, a week after he arrived, it 50955 Docld:32277209 Page 102. - TgP SeGl
Says the patient apparently understands the questions asked 126 = 2 | in Russian. So you knew he spoke Russian at that time. And yet 3 | that was one of your criteria. © ‘ 4 MrviNosenko?. «Wéll, sir’ ++. 5 i Mr. Sawyer. Something else I am a little curious about. 6 Apparently, coming here, wanting to defect, wanting to leave 7 America, wanting Russia, here is a guy that if he didn't 8 know anything would be apparently capable of going back £o the 9 | United States at the behest of KGB in areas of the country that 10 Russian diplomats and so forth, KGB people weren't. allowed to g | i | and dig up information for. them and come back. Here is a guy you didn't have to threaten, he volunteers. And it seems strange H { you wouldn't talk to him or be interested in him-just from that 14 point of view. 1s And how -= and another thing that greatly bothers me, 16 how did you know that he, being in the Marines, you knew that, VW but how did you know he wasn't a cryptographer or how did ‘ 13 you know he wasn't stationed in the Office of the Joint Chiefs 7 . 19 | of Staff as a guard Or aS a messenger or a clerk, or that he not at least find these things out, with a guy that-wants to go to Russia, wants to be a Russian? & { t | { 4 | | 20 | worked with U-2s, which apparently he did. Why would the KGB q | Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I only can repeat you, when on him was | t _ received the first information about his arrival, checkup was made on him. There wasn't any existing material in KGB, any ‘OP SECRET HW 50555 Bocld: 32277205 Page 105
fUP SeGKET ay 1 knowledge about him. He never. was before in the Soviet Union. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman, I just now got this report. I wonder if I could let Mr.Edgar go ahead of me?. The Chairman. The Chair will recognize Mr. Edgar. Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ~~ 2 . In judging by the question -- 3 Mr. Sawyer. Why weren't they asking, why wouldn't they ao 4 ask, that's the question. Why wouldn't they ask? 5 Mr. Nosenko. They are not -- 6 Mr. Sawyer. Apparently they knew he could speak Russian. 7 ‘Mr. Nosenko. -- asking Americans approaching. a Judging by the questionnaire, they decided, the KGB decided, g Seventh Department, he is not an -interesting target. 10 | Mr. Sawyer. Well, why would a person like this not even 7 | be interesting for something like the Tokyo Rose, on some kind y | of propaganda program where he could say how bad things were a 13 | in the United States, and why he didn't want to stay there: ig | anymore and how great they were in Russia, like these is! propagandists do? 16 | Mr. Nosenko. Sir, I am telling you why it was decided, 7 | and how KGB was thinking about him. - 12 | Mr. Sawyer. I yield back the balance of my time. 19 | The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. | | 4 i ! \ i i | I have a series of questions which I hope most of which © i Mr: Fithian. | | | | | | i | { i HW 50955 Docld: 32277209 Page 104 _ aa TOP SECRET
OP SECRET us | / will be yes and no kinds of questions. -_ 2 | Did you conduct in the KGB a program to compromise and | recruit journalists? oC. 4 | Mr. Nosenko. , I was working, when I started to work in th — } KGB in 1953, the first year I was working against American 6 | correspondents. Z Mr. Edgar. But ‘the KGB, not you personally, but the KGB 8 | did have a policy of going against journalists and trying to. 9 | compromise them, yes or no?’ 10 | Mr. Nosenko. Trying to recruit or compromise them. | 1 | Mr. Edgar. Did they censor all the journalists' notes 2 | that they could gather from the journalists? Did they censor . Gc 13 | the notes before they allowed the story to go out? i id Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. _ Mr. Edgar. Priscilla Johnson interviewed Oswald on the 16 ! 15th of November, 1959. Would the KGB have looked at her 7 notes from that interview? | 13 | Mr. Nosenko. Sir, they xe censored not by the KGB, but 19 | there is special v~ it is government organization was censorin o| this. ‘Some materials are coming to the KGB, some are not 21 | coming. 2 | Mr. Edgar. Well, she reveals in her article that he was Marxist, that Oswald was a Marxist and a.Marine Corps radar _man.- It would seem to me the KGB would have discovered that ~d Ba n a eee oe ee in November of 1959). 1 | jess voctasestvs eae os TOP SECRET
Mr. Nosenko. ‘Sir, I didn't know this in those days. “Mr. Edgar. Do. you know a _correstondent by the name..of | ArdenesMosby?? | Mr. Nosenko. Yes, I heard such a name, Mosby, a woman who was a correspondent. | | “Mr. Edgar. Im the earlier questioning of Congresswoman Burke, you were not| confusing *Arlene Mosby with the treatment ‘ of Priscilla Johnson? Mr. Nosenko. ft think it was Priscilla Johnson, the case which I described, I think: so. I think so, it was priscilla Johnson. “Mr. Edgar. How/do you know? Mr. Nosenko. What I heard from colleagues who were in KGB, who were working against correspondents. Mr. Edgar. But you are not absolutely clear? ‘Mr. Nosenko. And then there was .an article in -- Mr. Edgar. You are not absolutely -- ‘ Mr. Nosenko. In literary newspaper, I think it was, not in Pravad, Izvestia} but in Literary Gazette. Mr. Edgar. But you are not absolutely certain? Mr. Nosenko. No. I think it was Priscilla JOhnson, as I said. Mr. Edgar. But)/it could have been someone else. Mr. Nosenko. An American correspondent, woman. - - Mr. Edgar. Are you certain that after 1967 you sat down OP SECRET HW 50955 DocId:32277209 Page 106 — al arene ce art RA ee AAD ARE Ae EE PEO
HW 50955 . 300 7TH STREET, S.W., REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 “19 20 21 22 23 24 25 130 with the CIA and corrected your earlier statements about Oswald, yes or no? Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. Mr. Edgar. We. have only a few pages of written testimony, some three pages that you gave, and in fact, in the beginning part of that testimony, you indicate that you don't want to go... through it again because your earlier testimony will stand for, itself. I am paraphrasing what you said. Were the notes and the recordsings of those corrections made and kept by the CIA? Mr. NOsenko. Sir, Mr. Bruce Solie talking with me every day for a period from the end of '67, the whole '68, 1968, '69, every conversation he was recording. But he never has come and showed his notes, transcriptions or anything. He was returning to every case, to every aspect by 20, 25, 30 times. Mr. Edgar. But specifically on the Oswald case, would it be correct in our assuming that it was more than three pages of notes on specifically Lee Harvey Oswald after 1967? Mr. Nosenko. If he was raising questions concerning also Lee Harvey Oswald. MR. Edgar. We have some information that Bruce Solie -- Mr. Nosenko. Yes, Mr. Solie. Mr. Edgar. Stated ina deposition that there is nothing on Oswald other than the three pages. Mr. Nosgenko. cannot say how many pages. I know ag. OMPANY, INC. Pocld: 32277209 Page 10T
HW 450955 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 10 iT 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 | that he was passing through all cases, all questions, with me for the period almost two years. Mr. Edgar. Who other than Bruce Solie did you talk to about correcting your earlier statements? Mr. Nosenko. I wasn't correcting them. They were correcting they were talking returning back to every case. Mr. Edgar. One final question. Mr. Nosenko. And also besides Mr. Solie, were people coming from FBI with cases in which were interested for them. Mr. Edgar. One final question. You stopped our hearing about an hour ago and were concerned about our playing the tape and -bringing up old memories, and I respect the fact that you are very patriotic in coming before this Committee and helping us. Would you be willing to sit down with our staff and go through a series of written questions which outline specifically for you the contradictions of your 1964, ‘65, ‘66 and early "67 timeframe, with the statements that you made, in '67, '68 and ‘78, and indicate in a yes~no manner which statement, laid side by side, is true and which statement is false? Mr. Nosenko. If it is the wish of the Committee, sure.. Mr. Edgar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. Mr. Fithian? Mr. Fithian. Mr. Nosenko,. do you remember when it was that the ae RY FBI first interviewe cae et ‘ cit ab oe elon REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 32277209 Page 106
300 7TH STREET, S.W., REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) §54-2345 HY 50955 . 22 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 23 24. 25 Bocld: Mr. Mr. Mr. Nosenko. Fithian. Nosenko. Fithian. I.do not remember dates, but -- It was between February and April? Right, right. The information we have is that it was early March, the first week in March. Is that about right?. Now have:you talked to the FBI about that testimony at any time since then? Mr. Nosenko. Gentlemen, on many, many times I have seen FBI, many, many questions raised. I cannot -- about this testi- mony, no, no. ‘ Mr. Fithian. About the Oswald testimony? Mr. Nosenko. About Oswald were asked questions, but not about this testimony . I do not remember about this testimony. Mr. Fithian. My question is, there is a written transcript summary of your testimony to the FBI taken on March 5th, 1964. Mr. Nosenko. Right. Mr. Fithian.. My question is, have you at any time since then visisted with the FBI about this testimony? Mr. Nosenko.. No, sir, no, sir. Mr. Fithian. Now, next, when -- what is your understanding as to when Oswald first offered to defect, when you first knew, when the KGB first knew he was interested in defecting? Mr. Nosenko: I cannot give you a date. Mr. Fithian. All right. he filled out an application -- pe T a NG COMPANY, INC. Well, rA uo ° wat Bec i EP ae al & ALOERSOR, 32277209 Page 109
HW 50955 300 7TH STREET, S.W., REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22 23 24 25 | 133 Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no application, in oral form. He told the interpreter in oral form. Mr. Fithian. This was the Intourist? Mr. Nosenko. Interpreter of the Intourists Mr. Fithian. And then the Intourist came to the KGB? Mr. Nosenko. Right, and it immediately was informed to KGB that this American applies, wants to stay, said to interpreter. Mr. Fithian. And then you reviewed the file? Mr. Nosenko. It was several pieces of pages what we had on him. It wasn't even file. Mr. Fithian. But you reviewed whatever applications -- Mr. Nosenko. Right. No it wasn't application to stay. He i oral form told the interpreter that he wants to stay Soviet Union. Mr. Fithian. You reviewed the pages that he had filled out for the visa and any other sheets that you had? Mr. Nosenko. He didn't -- yes, these documents, yes, for the visa, questionnaire and -- | Mr. Fithian. Yes. - What I am trying to get at is what did you have in front of you physically, knowledgeably about Oswald? Mr. NOsenko. What I remember, it was it was several pages only; was questionnaire, was form of document from Intourist ‘ received how long his tour and how many days. There was checks of Oswald in archives of KGB to forms. There was information from Intourist who work spel} ans et ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Bocla: 322777209 . Page 110
300 7TH STREET, 8.W., REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345. HW 50955 10 11 12 13 14 20 21 22 23 | 24 25 aa 134 Mr. Fithian. All right. Let me just stop you here. Mr. Nosenko. Yes. Mr. Fithian. The forms in there by the KGB were filled out based on what information? Mr. Nosenko. On his name, what he ‘supplied, who he is, when he was asking visa. Mr. Fithian. But they conducted no check, no search? Mr. Nosenko. It is in the archives of KGB, if he ever was in Soviet Union, on him there will be something. If he wasn't in Soviet Union but he was known to intelligence service -- Mr. Fithian. But you didn't have any record on that. Mr. Nosenko. Nothing. Mr. Fithian. And so the final question is that the only thing that you had to judge -that he was an uninteresting subject was what he had told the Intourist guide? | Mr. Nosenko. Right. Mr. Fithian. That is the only substantive thing? Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir, and his questionnaire for who he -is, his name, whatever he filled about himself. . That's all. The Chairman. The time of the gentleman has expired. The Chair has one additional request from:one member, for one additional question. Mr. Sawyer? Mr. Sawyer. I just have one additional question, and that is the $80,000 you got for compensation and~ the $15,000 or $20,000 ‘ as 4 t ALDER x i “2 re ‘ SON'REROR TING INC. Bocla: 322777209 Page Lil
300 7TH STREET, S.W., REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 HW 450955 10 1] 12 13 14 15 16 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld: you got later, that was net money after whatever taxes or whatever it was -- Mr. Nosenko. Yes, after all taxes were taken. Mr. Sawyer. Thank you. Mr. Dodd. Mr. Chairman? The Chairman. Mr. Dodd? Mr. Dodd. I just wondered for the record, I wondered if, Mr. Nosenko, you could tell us when you arrived in this country on February 12th, 1964, between February 12th, 1964 and April 4th, 1964, where were you in this country? Mr. Nosenko. February 12 of 1964 and April sth, I was stayinc in house in Virginia. I do not know address. Mr. Dodd. Did you go -- did you travel at all? Mr. Nosenko. No, sir. Mr. Dodd. No vacation? . ot Mr. Nosenko. Oh, I went in March on week to Hawaii.I was. Mr. Dodd. Were you on your own? Mr. Nosenko. No, no, no, with guards. Mr. Dodd. It was a relaxed period for you and just a chance to rest? Mr. Nosenko. Chance to get a little bit'rest. Mr. Dodd. Is it your knowledge that this is the normal way that defectors are treated when they come to this country? Mr. Nosenko. I do not know. Mr. Dodd. Just one last point, Mr. Chairman, and that is fs my | alokibobee thE bay INC. 32277209 Page 1i2
a an C | 136 vibe 7 i 1 a use 7 with regard to the American exhibit, as a result of a statement by Mr. Klein which I understand you did not disagree with, the American 2° 3 exhibit ended on Sepgember 4th, 1959? That's when the termination co 4 of the exhibit was? 5 Mr. Nosenko. Yés, he showed me. an: article. Ww =< pS) 3 6 Mr. Dodd. -Is it your knowledge that employees thatworked x ys , a 7 during the exhibit stayed on for a period of time after that? nN s P Mr. Nosenko. Sure, to it will be disassembled, this is the fa) N g 9 whole process is going on. It is closed for visitors to visit, 8 to look. & 10 Z : z r Mr. Dodd. How long a period would that have been, a week? if] < = Mr. Nosenko. No, more. g 12 a Mr..Dodd. More? @® :% ) w Mr. Nosenko. More, sure. & 14 ey 15 Mrs Dodd: ..Thank you, Mr.Chairman. Ry . ‘ Bs aad 16 The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, with reference to your earlier = o 17 comments this evening regarding what transpired during your fl ; fx a . Fe 18 period of isolation, which you described as extreme spartan es . . & 19 conditions, I would like to make this request of you. I think the o S . * 20 record ought to in a very graphic way portray those conditions 71 under which you were subjected during that period of time, and 22 while you are complying with Mr. Edgar's request and working with ce . 23 the staff in terms of the contradictory data, would you also agree 24 | *° work with the staff in terms of seeing that the record has a 25 complete and accurate description -- . ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. HW 50955 DBoclda: 32277209 Page 113
ig 5 a % 6 a 5 7 a S 8 i 3 qj 9 Z & & 10 a isa} . 4 1] = g 12 8 @ 23 ioe ' E& fant So 15 fz] [and z 16 wn H 17 ic feat & 18 ie E 5 19 OD 20 21 e ~ 23 24 25 137. Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. The Chairman. --of all the conditions which yourunderwents* during that period? ‘ Mr. Nosenko. ves, sir. The Chairman. Thank-you. Did you have.some?...: Mr. Cornwell. Following up on the question that Congressma Dodd just asked you, the staff, in an attempt to determine how lon it took to disassemble the exhibition, checked. with a knowledge- able employee who was involved in that process in the State. Department and were informed by that person that the exhibition was disassembled and the persons who were operating it had left by October the 4th, approximately 30 days after the exhibition was terminated. Would you disagree with that information? Mr. Nosenko. No, sir, I ‘cannot disagree. I do not remember. I do not know, even, when they left, no, sir. Mr. Cornwell. That is all I have. The Chairman. Anything further from the Committee? Now, Mr. Devine, do you have anything? Mr. Devine. No. He is under continuing subpoena. ' The Chairman. Under the rules of the Committee, Mr. Nosenko, any witness appearing before our Committee is entitled at the conclusion of his testimony to address the Committee for a peridod of five minutes for the purpose of clarifying anything HY 50955 DBocld: 32277209 Page 114
HY 300 7TH STREET, S.W., REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 0955 10 1] 12 13 14 20 21 22 23 24 25 138 for the record or making any statement he so desires, and I want to at this time afford you that five minute period to make such a statement, if you so desire. Mr. Nosenko. Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I consider my appearance, invitation to appear at Committee, as I told also the same applies before, my meetings with the staff of the Commit- tee, I consider it honor, gredthonor for me. I will try to answer whatever I: ‘remember, whatever I know as only truth, and but the truth. And you would like to see me.appear at any time, Iam at your disposal and I will try to give you the only things what I know. The Chairman. Thank you. That is the completion of your statement, sir? Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Mr. Nosenko, on behalf of the Committee and the United States Congress, I want to express our appreciation to you for having appeared here and having given this Committee the benefit of your testimony. At this time I would remind you of the terms of your agreement to work with our staff and provide further information to the Committee, that you will continue under the oath administered to you by this Committee. Mr. Nosenko. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Thank you very much for your appearance here. | Mr. Nosenko. Thank you, Sir. i. a py dy t Le Do RERORT It Lomeany. ime Doclda: 32277209 Page 1154
2 3 0 4 iG 5 a z 6 e 8 7 — N $ 8 S os 9 Z & 4 fo Q 11 Ss g 12 8 @® :* mQ & 14 . in] 2 15 ic os : 16 = . K 17 i fee] 5 18 len} & = 19 3 20 21 Se - : 23 24 25 139 The Chairman. You are excused. At this time, there being no. further business to come before the Committee, the meeting is adjourned subject to the call of the Chair. | (Whereupon, at 10:17 o'clock p.m., the Committee was adjourned subject to the call of the Chair.) nal RTING COMPANY, INC. i. HY 50955 - Docld: 32277209 Page 116