adrgena fe oe | ~ ae ae era ieeeearte, a FR wre dag te peta Lasiget se * yom inna aeuae Ryerag REEL cee eis 9 iit ArendhtnietetoedereBtettn Dt SRP teeth ete BP AM Mee Madytentntn ete to hep my Pee, Oech tah Presta D = Ce Pe a ce seabeseermecnnsteaeraeneseen Of course, if he is around, I will 2ind him; but if he is: on leave... he will pay when he returns. : ' Of course, Nomsonol and Party members usually pay in advance if they f “3 ‘now that they arc soing on leave. He leaves his Kousomol or Party card with the Secretary of the Konsomol ft ' oo or Party orranization, together with the money vhich he,dsssupposedate iP t } _to pay for the next month while he is on leave. A. While you were a Sccretary of a Komsonol orfanination «= if you were one == now ndany tines, at Komsomol meetings, did you sive reconnmendations for entering the Party. B. I do not renember. I do not remember; perhaps one or two times. A. Do you renenber for whom it was. B. I do not remember. i I think... there was in our First Department, Feliks RAXOVSKIY. A, Well, this Feliks RAKOVSKIY makes me sick; do not mention him again. oie eae meee eet whet an B. Why? B. Well, this was the First Department, where I began working. ’ : I A. Is there anyone else? Because, other than Feliks RAKOVSKIY, I see no one else. a - Be Of the girls —- I do not remember who, I do not remember A.- We will return to the old question. é j
B. In a military unit, in Sovets:. LA. In which military unit: ‘BR, The Navy intclligence Point == A. In the city of Sovetsk. 3. Sovetsk of Primorskiy Xray. Intelligence of. the Fourth Navy Fleet. A, And why do you say Primorskiy aray. B. It is called Primorskiy Kray, formerly Konigsberp a een 2 Baltiysk -- this is all Primorsxiy Kray. A. Since when did they start calling it Primorskiy Kray. B. 1 do not know since when; but they called it that, when I was there for a few months in 1952 #= Primorskiy Kray. A, There is an official name for the region. B. Primorskiy Kray; city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. A, What are the big towns in Primorskiy Kray. B, Baitiysk, the former Pillau. 4. Baltiysk, what else> Is that the only big city. B. I do not know any more there. bent Tae tn a « ns am ater gener, arate Oe oe | |
een ‘Yoask again «= perhaps you are confusing it with something. Approximately how many Komsomol members were there: J am afraid to say ~- not less than 30. gk ROMEO RaSh dkeh Hote te se rsanoraxiy Zray,” precisely 7 pre - - Ng enn eae cnet Y am not confusing it with anything. > {1 would like to help you because there never was any Pr imorskiy Krai there, Primorskiy Kray; city of Sovetsk, Pr imorskiy. lav . Yesterday, I thought well, perhaps the man just made a slip. No, no, no. I remember, even in letters ~- Sovetsk, Primerskiy ‘Cray, military unit guch and such. What military unit was it Do you remember. I do not remember. While there, in which Komsomol orsanization were you on the rolls. The only one that we had =~ in the URP. The Navy Intelligence Point. 3 i : ? I { : Yes. We had many enlisted men; the officer compor There were many enlisted men and petty officers. a
Who was the Secretary: Well, I say... that is way I say that there were about 30 members, We had about 15 officers in all. All of the officers were members of the Party orpanication.. I think £t would be logical to say that in such a responsible place as as the Navy Intellisence Point, most of the enlisted men and pett officers would be Xcinsomol members, there tiéy would -nave been selected 7 and checked. Therefore, surely there must have been more than 36 men, Well, understand -- there were the nenbers of the Part¥ ganization That is quite understandable... and there were-nona There were those who were not Party nembers. ‘ Well, what was that Komsomol orzanization called. The Komsomol organization of such and such a military unit. What military unit I do not remember the number of the military unit. Well, what was it -- Komsomol organization of the What kind of a Komsonol organization. A primary Komsomol]l organization; primary Komsomol organization of military unit such and such. I do not remember .
A. To the Deputy Chief.... . The Secretary of the Komsonol organization is subordinate to whom. ‘pelitical work. ((Speaxs with uncertainty)) No... he was... a warrant officer... a chief petty officer. To vwhon was this organization svbordinate ee To the Deputy Chief of Intelligence for Political affairs. Deputy Chief of the Fourth Navy Flicet. Vho was he. I also do not remember, Well, to whom was the Deputy Chief of Intellicence subordinate To the Political Department, the Political Directorate of the Fleet. Political Directorate of the Fourth Navy Fleet. Yes. Well, anyway, you can be more precise -- what was the Konsomol organization called, and to whoa it was subor‘inatelc™ Because what you said is not entirely accurate; that is not the way it is ¥ am taking the last point. To the Deputy... to the deputy commander of the military unit for Let. us express this more precisely. If one is an officer in the Navy -— whe the —
cei cans cue Aa 0m sent te tomes aretha a sagt: om ore neath A bee ene te structure. CRCT HBR Be Gets ~~ a thewenned wrens ter a ~ emmeus aay ~ om omen Gm, “there “ip a” Right, right. And they have their own titles and nanes. You see, when you say that.... The primary Party organization of military units.... .. For political or political affairs, etc., there is a difference, but tnis.... I have in mind “for political affairs", “for political deputy commander for political affairs; but this is not political work! Why bother with such hairesplitting? = = Tais is not hair splitting. = An officer woo was there would never say "for political work", because it wlll be thought of as lovelevel . For political affairs. Let us call things by their own names. What kind of Komsomol work. did you do there: What were your responsibilities as a Konusomol mei be: én you were at the ERP. ¥ was a rank and file Komsomol member. { could have carried out some separate tasks for the Secretary of the Konsonol organization. For example. I do not remember. Perhaps I gave 2 speech
PEED ee eine ee» was” “there tor” a “SHOr eT’ aoe ipcnviunetecsiecennesonmiuininitonnsasionen ve B. Mahe Na ee + Well, saat kind of speech, for exanple Y do not renenber; well, I do not remember. Well, again, I am inclined to help you, — A man with a higher education, a language, etc., could do many things there. I could not do many things, because I was there for 2 short time. How long were you there: Four months, four and a half months. Let us go back now to the old question -- although you are not giving me the name of the Komsonol organization to which it was subordinate, how finally did you get on the rolls of the Komsonol Committee of the EVD. I told you how, But saying that tells me nothing; what you said about speaking with someone there, but what should go before and after that, Well, I went to the registration group of the Komsonol Committee and gaid that I had come to be put on the rolls — "] aus of the Second Chief Directorate"; they asked for ny Sonsonol card «— ‘Were is my Komsomol card"; then they asked me where I had been -- I told then I had been there and there; well, they opened a personnel - card (litsevaya uchetnaya kartochka) on me and put me on the rolls. What else. Nothing else. so knits wate Ais Litem aled bea os talon! +
- J even received letters addressed to Primorskly After the war, of course, because tnis was a German 27.one German territory. Since when did they start calling it Primorskiy Kray. {1 do not know; I do not know anytainz more. eee alll Is therc no other name for this region. City of Sovetsk, Prinorskiy Xray. That is how che letters were addressed. ‘hat is the capital of this Primorskiy Kray. Kaliningrad; Konigsberg, the former xonigesberg ; Kees Since when did they start calling it Primorskiy Kray. ¥ do not know since when. Well, I think you should know, if you were there, I do not know. It is difficult for me to believe a man who was there would hot know what this place was called. oe I told you - city nf Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. There is no Primorskiy Kray there and was none. Perhaps, in the Far East. 1 sages memnenpeegn sitet nie ee ot eee mira aera
= —~ A. Well, since when was it calicd.... aren eaggreem wee a 1 “B, Well, since when, since when Tals territory was incorporated into the Soviet Union vhen it was captured from Germany. coma This territory is close to Lithuania, Kaliningrad, Baltiysx, Sovets, but since when it has been called Primorskiy Kray, I de not know. gage * I was the.'e for several months in 1942. In Sovets:, Primorskiy “ray. iA. What was the capital of Prinorsiiy dray. B. Kalininzrad, the former Konlysherg. A. Why was it called Kaliningrad B, They simply renamed the city. Xonigsberg was the German name; then it was called Saliningrad, B. They sinply renamed the city. Konigsbers was the German nance; then it was ealled Zaliningrad. ft eeneee eenemieapeiem aoe: A. dust between us, did you really serve there. B. (€(In a low voice)) Yes. Ser A. Well, I do not insist, and I do not want to repeat it a hundred times ~~ tell me frankly if you served there or not. B. Of course! What should I say. : “ A. Well, if you served there, then why say such a thing. a en
sea ne anteaenee ante fae ses A. In 1952 and even earlier — but I do not want to say fron never was called Prinorsiiy “ray. Tae city of Sovetsk, Primore’:iy tray. That do you mean. I was there; I know. I want to say that you perhaps are still confusing this with some thing . 4 ~ ve else. I am not confusing this with anything. Taere is no Primorskiy Kray. I know that Primorskiy Kray is in the Far East: T if" There never was any here. It is quite sad that a man who has completed the Institute of Intere national Relations does not know the sinplest things about Soviet geography. ((Long Pause}) Well, you worked for a long time in the Second Chief Directorate; did you ever send an operational letter to this Primorsiy Kray: No, no; not once. Of course not; there never was such a place. ((Pause)) What is keeping fron telling that you never were there: XY say that I was there. How can I say that I was not: How can it be that a man who was there and worked there says that. this is Primorskiy Kray, even though there never....
+ SURARTRAEEEE eon ane Oo setts ort But there is, above the primary organization, some office to. whom.it... . ' works. TO enn ae coal gcte, Tha at haan nds * g conclusion is that you, as Secretar¥ of a Konsonol organiza ic as a Komsonol menber, do not “now the Reculations concerning how a person is put on the rolls in a xomsomol organization, not only in a the Xomsonmol Connittec, but in any military. unit -= because you could not even cive me the correct nane of your Honmsonol orvanivation in the KRavy. Tae Komsonol orsanization of military unit such and such. What else. . ce ™ 3 how and where the Nomsomol organizations are organized, ...; Tae prinary Nousonol organization of military unit such and such. Further, to wiom’is it suborcinate- It is subordinate to the deputy commander for political affairs. Every political worker, deputy commander for political affairs, according to the Regulations, should supervise the work of the oo) Romsomol organization. Both the Party and the Komsonol. Tuere is someone who is higher than the primary Komsonol organization, who is responsible for this. Who is it to whom this organization is subordinate? Everyone knows, and it is written in the Regulations, that the Party guides the Komsonol; and it is true that the "Party god" always sticks his nose into the Komsomol. vor: -- it is his duty. is subordinate and upon whose instructions -tt vacation ot
14-00000 6. toon lin ew ATT , ce 104 08 ail GOEL NA A. ec t, th Political Department or the Political Directorate 32 the Flee is a Konsonmol Connittee ((Laucns)) I do not intend to explain it to you, tut (Cin English)) you are conpletely wron:z. Ian telling it the way I know it, but you want.... One cannot accept wat you say as valid coin wien it is not right. . ; d Ian trying, with leadiny questions, to hel > you.... Forgive me; I an not a political vortier, but you asi: me“fer such details. If you were a political worker, I could asx you a thousand other questions. I am asking you only what any Komsomol menber and the Secretary of the Konsonol organization of the Second Chief Directorate must know. I am answering everything as I know it. You do not know — that is the probien. XY answer as I personally know it. I make the direct conclusion that you were not a Secretary ° Komsomol organization and that you do not know the sinplest things about the Regulations of the Konsomol, You know nothing about the collection of Komsonol dues, except that there is a list —- but you do not know the name of the list. What do you mean == I do not know about the dum how. it was done and how I did it.:
a AG Niet cet gett aM Pay Araneta Reh RHE testy By eo Bet Na enema teh ® Saeed e sa btelie Tamim temanattir, Soe FOOMENA See KS OO0O® os ee ern Very SPLOT We-WEIT PERRIS TTA - Piaeee I want you yourself to aake the ex planations. What did you actually do Vnere were you. veda B. I am telling you. 4 Aa. How could it happen that a man does not even know.... 4 lle came to loscow, came into the organs of the KGD = this is notte crutch factory or the "Do not take ne: fron under the warm blaa‘:et’™ Kollhoz; this is the KGS. B. ((€In 2 low voice)) Yes. oo know as soon as you enter on duty there, but + yaa simplest thinzs. I want to usderstand; I give you leading questions and others, but you cannot answer; how is this to be cxplained. flow is it to be explained: B. What do you want. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) A. I want te know this simple thing ~- how did you get on the rolls. B. I told you; I told you how I sot on the rolis. 4&. You said only one thing -— which anyone could.say: that you went to ie the Komsomol Conmittee. ag What next: on Ht hen BA ae MAB HR Meee B. I went to the registration group and said, "lam a new employee; Tan working in. the Second Chief Directorate." They asked for my Komsomol card; I said, «ids orien Bie eee oe tin leatlon, tet et alae oe S
5B. in any way, you understand. Aa om See gr ST AE alt al TA nee TG Hi wt oP LT We eM tt They as':ed me chere I had been on the rolls and if I had\t registered w= FT said, “No. . They ased where == I said I nad wortsed there, I was on the rolls there, Further. walle on leave, the question of my transfer fron the arose. So I bevan to work in the iVD., They wrote down ny Komsonmol card number and opened a On Me... Dy the way, Komsonol reprimands are recorded on this personnel card -.= mye wae such things as a severe reprimand with warning and a reprinand. We will cet to that when we talk about your punishnents. I think by that time you will be better prepared. What do you mean =-} “better prenared"™. You will ((sneat:)) more believably. Well, what do you mean -- “more believably". I am telling you wiat I have (2G) ((Laughs)) You sce ==. you are laughing yourself. Well... I am not laughing; I cannot tell you anything more. I have to laugh because you talk, you explain, but it does not fit — I try to stick this in ((in order)), but I canno Why can you not.
ore Oars enbe slieene es #4 B. TN ag oe eee You are mistaken, you are mistaken. That e=| nonsense This is life. You yourself are Lauvhing. I laugh because this is quite sinply an absurd situation. I tell you ((somethin::, but)) you tell ne I do not know. ({XG; A and B speat: at the sane tine)) I tell you how it was; you tell ne co net know, How can A person say, "I paid 25". No; this cannot be, in any way. Or, for example, the last hour we were talking, so7== of age". Yes, up to 27. It was 26 the whole time. They changed it much later, but not 1953, 1954. It ((was)) precisely so, precisely to 27 inclusive, pre because.... You understand... up to 26 inclusive. — ; But they changed it much later, when you already were in the Party if you were ((in the Party)). Well, no; no, no. What are you saying — that I am trying (. to deceive: No, No. etnbubbiaee a aie “e i f BS
4 gence teu abealpnelbe gah Mos itd Ran bes QCA etn name A OR at até When Ivmake a nistaze, I admit it inmediately. No, no; you.... : ((Pause)) Well, let us go back to Primorskiy «ray for a minute. ; Where did you ret it that this place is called Prinorsikiy Koray. B. A. B. From where did I get it. From the fact that they wrote letters to me ((there)). Screw then, these letters?’ There is the Administrative-Territorial Division of the Soviet Union (Acninistrativno-territorial'noye deleniye Sovetskoo Soyuza), and uz there never was 2 Primorssxiy (Kray there. From where did you get this. a But who knows (ihren yego znayet) fron where I got Ltr Sovetss, Prinorskiy hray. That is what I want to say -- from where. If there was none there, then how, from where. You made it up. Here is fron where, They told me so (tak skazali me). — vet Pr inors!: iy Letters came to me ((addressed)) thus... city of “So Kray, military unit such and such. I am telling you, but as if I made it up, as if I. madedtz ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) Why do I need it, this Primorskiy Kray; I am telling you how it was, _ how it was. Here, a letter — ((addressed to)) Sovetsk, Prinor devil knows why!
“Let us not get upset... There wad n6.:.. ((XG; A and B speax at the sane tinc.)) ‘B, There was. i A, Wow can you say there was, when there was none. ‘ 4 ‘ 4 DB. But I, waen, I received letters; but how == “there was none". 3 A. Then were you in some other place.... : B. I was in no other place.... A. ..- (Cimen)) you received these letters. B, No, I was not. : A. Thints how it must be. B. Why should I think about it. 4 A, I do not know why. I do not know why it was necessary for you to say: Kray; Baltiysk, Prinorskiy Xray; Konigsberg, Primorstiy Kray. A second-grader would laugh. B. ((in a very low voice)) Primorskiy Kray, from Primorskiy Kray, I myself gave the address ((to someone, the name ““nreadable’)).... ‘A. Take, for example, Krasnodar; ((it is)) the center of what kray’ : B. Of Krasnodarsxly ((Kray)). i - i A. So.
om ate the te bnrewttinenicma ie + emer’ es eae A what xray. To my thinking, now, now “Xalinigradskiy, Kalinisrad Oblast, now, saliningrad Oblast. Let us proceed from the following =. when did MALININ die Well, way ((talt: about)) KALININ here: Why NALININ here Right after the war, they called it, Nonissbers... they soon, imnediately maned it Naliningrad, fcgain, this is nonsense. Listen, I sinply want that £7 you do not knov, you do not say ((anything)); if you know, tell the truth. - t ere am askin: woen iL\LIWIN died. I do not remenber, I do not remenber. For your informatien, I will not say when, you yourself will thing ((of this)). Kaliningrad was renamed to honor ZALININ after his death. And Kaliningrad was not Ualiningrad right after the war. Therefore, gor me, there is a leritinate question in 1352: How did a person in Soevetss in 1952 receive letters ((addressed to)) the city of Sovets:, Prinorskiy Xray: This is utter rot (huynya). -(xG) I will tell you what; you say Konigsberg — right. In 1945, I flew from Moscow to Koenigsberg, to Nonigsberg with father; here, right.avay.... This already was after the war. eri action He tou. ne heb eat elena ee ae
sone cee OOO aan B. A. B. B. 1945, 1945... Tais was chen é July, July—ausust. This already was after the war. ie t No, this, well, the war had Just ended. } 3 This was Noniusberg. : I do not contradict this. i 3 I do not now waen they «cave Nonigsberg a nane,. In 1952, I arrived... in Sovetsx... Daltiys:, Sovets: 07% This was “Laliningrad. . That is all, that is all. When, I do not know. : i Since when has there been a Primorsxiy Sray in the far zast- : I do not know since when. i For a long, long, long time, because you still read books about the Civil War, the partisans of Prinorskiy Nray. And there is such a Prinorskiy ‘ray ((there)), righ! : 4 i There is, there is; right. Safes ‘ And the center there’ Viadivostok. But it. would not be logical to have two Prinorskiy. Soviet Union. I give you my honest word -- there is a se
‘Well, what are you saying. No one will deny it. Two fleets based in one kray. The Fifth Flect == Vladivosto:; our Seventh == Sovets aya Gavan’ . Think well -- perhaps there is a Sovetsk in that, Prinorskiy lray. No, no, no, no; Sovetsk, Primorsiiy ray. What are you talixing about: There is no Sovetsk in that onc. But there is. By ths way, there is. No, No. Again; if you do not know, please, do not say ((anything)). Well, look; I worked there, I had the map, I looked at the map; I do not remember a city, Sovetsk, there in Primorskiy Kray in t e Far . East. If you had worked well there, then you would remembe We will come back to the map again. Well, anyway, do you still reckon that you were working as Secretary of the <omsomol organization. I am not reckoning; why should I reckon: It was ((so)).. Well, how so -=- when you cannot even answer the simplest things about the Komsomol.
eine a ines URN Gad rte Re Ht peer nn senn You understand what I see the second day; I have in eehepttsite