HW 53716 DoclId:327404703 Page 57 Yes, of course. ...Because his position requires it so. It is not necessary; maybe he was not, but more likely he was. Yes, yes. As you said, your father had many awards, etc. You know that all people in high places in the Soviet Union, especially in Moscow, and especially Ministers, receive their awards from the hands of the President. And before KALININ, Mikhail Ivanovich, died he, of course, shook hands with your father. | And probably, when KALININ dies, your father said: "I am sorry etc... the man died... He was President for a long time; he was respected by all, by those who like the Soviet Union and by those who do not like the Soviet Union." He was from peasant stock, a simple worker. Well, if we look at it even from this point of view, it is possible that there was a family conversation: "Thanks, that at least one thing was done -~ they named Kaliningrad Oblast in memory of KALININ". I do not remember. Well, I do not insist that it was that way, but it might have been. I can tell you more -=- I knew his niece very well. Then the more so; in that case, there may have been discussions, perhaps on this subject. No, there was no discussion on this subject. Well, I do not insist that there was; but there could have been, righty
HW 53716 sypten © @ =- 55 - Yes, yes. And, of course, as I said, it is difficult for me to understand why you do not know about such a simple thing as Kaliningrad Oblast and Primorskiy Kray. | I cannot understand it at all. You told us that you traveled over the Soviet Union extensively, going on TDY's and so forth. You know that counterintelligence officers know the territory very well, even if they do not work in it. Then, Kaliningrad Oblast is a good place for agent training and for everything. It is former German territory. One can bring those people, put them in German houses or something like that. ((XG)) We will have a break for a few minutes. ( (BREAK) ) There; I have just obtained the Administrativno-Territorial'noye Deleniye Soyuznykh Respublik, published in 1954. There is Kaliningrad Oblast and it also is written that there is a city of Sovetsk and a Sovetskiy Rayon. If you are still uncertain where it was etc., read, starting from the top. ((Reads)) "Kaliningrad. Oblast == capital -- Kaliningrad... Name of ‘a Rayon -=— Sovetskiy.... Further, further; look down below.... Here is the "city of Sovetsk". GRET DoclId: 327404703 Page 58
HW 532716 SEC. e “so. © A city of oblast subordination. Of oblast subordination. It is subordinate to Kaliningrad. To the Kaliningrad Oblast Soviet. Sovetsk.... And what there is of rayon subordination? These are "town types (gorodskogo tipa)". Further, there are small towns which are in Kaliningrad Oblast. Please show me that map again. ((After looking at the map:)) Here is Baltiysk, right? And Sovetsk was from Baltiysk... this was on the spit... before the spit. | It was here somewhere... But it could be... I tell you I remember Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. Because... what is it... For what... I do not know. Here is Sovetsk? ((A shows Sovetsk on the map)) No, no, no, no; in no case ((not that Sovetsk)). Here, right here. Here, here, here ((shows another location) ) Directly... see... at the beginning of the spit, at the very beginning of the spit; here, right here. | Maybe I have Primorsk in mind... Lord knows... in my memory, it is Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. Why‘? The devil knows. SESRET DoclId: 327404703 Page 59
HW 53716 SECRET - 57 = Maybe, about this Primorsk... I do not know. This is where our MRP was. Here is a small, small... it is not even a city; it is a small, small settlement. There is no‘other Sovetsk. Well, well, it was there. Why in my memory -~- Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; I do not know. In no case (XG) Sovetsk. I think that.... No, no, no; in no case, this Sovetsk. . It is at the very beginning of the spit. Baltiysk is on the spit, and this is at the beginning of the spit. What do you think -- it is difficult to make a mistake between Sovetsk ‘and Primorsk? Right? Well, why? . Look, here also is a Primorsk. Well, I do not know why it stayed in my memory that it was Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. The devil knows. I make the conclusion that it is possible that at one time you could have visited there.... There was no reason -—= only when I was at that MRP. ...Kaliningrad Oblast and so forth... But everything adds up to ((the conclusion)) that your knowledge is so small and you cannot confirm in any way that you had worked there. You know absolutely nothing about it, even about the existence of SECRET DoclId: 327404703 Page 60
HW 53716 Docld: 32404703 Page 61 sueter 6 “3. @ of Kaliningrad Oblast; I cannot understand this at all. I can only say, speaking with a man who lived all of his life in the Soviet Union, in Moscow and in other cities... and the ((Kaliningrad) ) Oblast has been in existence since 1946... he makes such a mistake -- Primorskiy Kray ~-- when it never was called that. I do not know why in my memory... I tell you that I remember: Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. But why? | The devil knows. But I have in mind that little place at the very beginning of the spit, at the very beginning of the spit. Of course, the spit is there; it has not wandered off anywhere. It still has not washed away; it was there, and it is still there. But, of course, you must understand, it is difficult, quite difficult, to believe that you were there, when you cannot say for sure where you were ,- Well, I am telling you where I was. You remember, of course, that you mentioned to me that Baltiysk formerly was called Pillau.... Pillau -= "this is the former Pillau." * . And Sovetsk; you did not say exactly how.... I even do not know what it was called. It was a German name. Well, you did not tell me exactly what this was called. You thought that formerly it was called so and so; this means you have in mind some town. This Sovetsk had a German name.
HW 53716 © ,.@ It was a small, small fishing settlement, nothing more, although there were several buildings. The own itself was ravaged. Judging by everything, it was a large fishing settlement. Well, after the death of Mikhail Ivanovich KALININ, the city of Konigsberg was renamed Kaliningrad, on 4 July 1946. The city, of course, is quite large. But, of course, in 1945, there was almost nothing there. as It was wrecked == I remember the city well -- but the plant remained. Do you remember -— when you were there, what kind of newspapers were published there, and what kind of newspapers did you read there? Well, we read our own paper, which was the Fleet newspaper. What was it called? I do not even remember the name. In the Far East, it was called Na Strazha Rodiny (On Guard of the Fatherland), but I do not know what it was called here. That, too, is quite strange. Well, I do not remember the name; I do not remember. Well, what kind of newspapers did the Oblast Party Committee and the Oblast Soviet publish? I do not know, I do not know; I do not remember. Well, I think that if you were there, you should remember something; right? Understand me, I do not remember; I do not remember. DoclId: 327404703 Page 62
HW 532716 >. “e - 60 - First of all, it was long ago, and secondly, I was there for a very short while; I did not live in Kaliningrad, I did not say that you lived there. It is not necessary to live in Kaliningrad. They send the newspaper all over the oblast, to the military, to everyone. We received the military newspaper . We did not have to subscribe in order to receive the newspaper. Even if you go to the "Lenin Room", it could be there, on the tables; it is not necessary to read it. Pravda, Izvestiya, laying ae and the Fleet newspaper. What kind of Fleet newspaper? I do not remember what it was called; I do not remember, You were in the Far East earlier, but you remember that name -- Na Strazhe Rodiny... Well, I was there for a long time; Na Strazhe Rodiny. .. But this was later, and you do not remember. I do not remember. Believe me; it is difficult for me to believe that you were there, in that situation and in that position, at the Intelligence Point, in Intelligence, etc.... A man arrives; he never was there ((before)); should he bother about the oblast, about what kind of newspapers are published there. I did not know any one in the group; I absolutely did not know anyone, DoclId:327404703 Page 63 !
HW 532716 not one man. And, again, your statement that you did not know anyone in the group indicates that you were not there. I said that, before that, I did not know anyone; it was an absolutely new group for me. - Who was the Chief of Intelligence? I do not remember; a colonel... I do not remember his name. Whom do you remember from when you were there, from among the counter- intelligence officers? I did not know any of the counterintelligence officers; I did not know one of them. But you knew that they existed... or did you? Well, in general, I knew -- there has to be a Special Department (Osobyy Otdel), how else? When you were there, did you ever have occasion to meet counterintelli- gence officers? No. You know that most of the employees of the organs of the KGB... ((they are)) specially ((from among)) those who are more or less faithful Komsomol members or Communists.... They have been, frankly, put on the hook --~ that is to say, recruited into work for or cooperation with the organs -- and then, many of them became staffers of the organs; I have ((this)) in mind ((when I ask you)) <= when you were in the Baltic, while working in Navy Intelligence, did you have any connection with counterintelligence? ~ SEEN — DoclId:327404703 Page 64
HW 53716 _SECRET L © - 62 « © Absolutely none; and in the Far East, where I was for a long time, I had absolutely no connections. Well, if you did not, you did not have; but I think it would be logical for you to remember the name of the Chief of Intelligence. I do not remember, I do not remember. And what about the Deputy Chiefr I also do not remember. Well, name someone with whom you worked. I remember... whom? There was Capt 3d Rank DEMCHENKO; there was an officer named BULAKH. What was his rank? Senior Lieutenant; there was also a captain-lieutenant... I remember his face very well, but I do not remember his name -- it seems ((it was) YELISEYEV, but there is a big question ((about this))... 7 I do not remember; but I remember those two names. You remember DEMCHENKO, BULAKH, and you are not sure about YELISEYEV. Yes, Did you have any friends with whom you were pais while you were there? Well, what kind of friendship’... I was there only four months. Well, when you went to eat with someone... or you talked with him on a day off or had a drink with him... There must have been some such person. DoclId: 32404703 Page 65
HW 532716 "SECRET © -s. @ One minute... BULAKH did not live with us; he lived separately because he brought his wife. And this one == Capt-Lt YELISEYEV -- also brought his wife with him. DEMCHENKO was a bachelor, and lived at the base, as I did; then, there was a lieutenant, a dark fellow ~= he looked like a gypsy -= I do not remember his name; we lived in the same room -- DEMCHENKO, the lieutenan: and I. I remember no other names. Did you live alone, or with someone? No, there were several of us living in a room right there at the base. With whom were you living? DEMCHENKO was in the same room; then, this lieutenant.... Well, did you live with them in the same room? In the same room, DEMCHENKO and who else? The lieutenant, also; I do not remember his name. Well, then, it is as if to say you had no special friends. I did not have any, because it was for a short time. Well, did not they give the son of a Minister a separate room? There were none; there was no possibility. We lived right there where our work room was... it looked like it was an attic... you could say it was the third floor; the building was a Mansard-—type. DoclId: 327404703 Page 66
HW 53716 Let us begin with that -= when you came there, you reported that you had arrive; what kind of work were you assigned? Senior translator—interpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point. You came to the MRP; Where was it -~= Sovetsk or Primorsk? Sovetsk, Sovetsk; it is Sovetsk. You should think of something else, because there is no Sovetsk. Well, I cannot tell you the name, but I remember it was Sovetsk, right there at the end of the spit. There is no Sovetsk at the end of the spit. No Sovetsk is written near Baltiysk, or anywhere else there. The old name could not be Sovetsk; and as its new name, it was never called that. The new name was Sovetsk. I understand that it could be Sovetsk only under the new name ~~ because it could not have been Sovetsk under the Germans. But now I am faced with a dilemma, and there is a great question -- let us say that you came to this place, that you were assigned as a senior intelligence officer.... A senior translator-interpreter. ...Translator~interpreter at the MRP in the city of Sovetsk, several kilometers from Baltiysk. But on the spit, there is no Sovetsk. At the beginning of the spit, there was some kind of Sovetsk. There was no such place. DoclId: 327404703 Page 67
HW 532716 ___ SECRET _ -~ 65 = Well, I do not know. It is such a small place, that perhaps it is not on the map, not on this map; this map...., Of course, I do not want to declare, or I do not want to say, that we have a map with all of the points, especially of this place; you understand? There is no such place there; there is nothing else there. I cannot tell you anything more; I absolutely cannot tell you anything more . I tell you -- it is there, at the very beginning of the spit, a small, small settlement called Sovetsk; that is what is stuck in my memory -- Sovetsk; what can I do? I do not know why “Sovetsk"; I do not know. Well, I have to know exactly -- what was the address written on the letters you received? Well, may be I am not telling you the truth; perhaps I am in error here - but I tell you again that I remember "Sovetsk", and --.for some reason ~ "Primorskiy Kray". | I have in mind this place right at the beginning of the spit, or "Sovetsk By the Sea". I do not know, I do not know. Sovetsk, there, Sovetsk. How was it written -- "City of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray" -= and what else was written? I do not remember exactly. I told you, but you insist on putting the dot over the i's; I cannot insist. Well, you see... it should be "Military Unit" or something. DoclId: 32404703 Page 66
HW 532716 . Military Unit number so-and-so. "Military Unit number so-and-so", then, probably the mail went through the military field post office. Well, because ((it was a)) military unit. I suspect that it could not have been addressed.to give the city, the. street number, etc.... No street, nothing; no, no, no. If, let us say, there were other circumstances.... If you were an intelligence officer under civilian cover there, you could have received mail at a civilian address. But, if ((you were)) at the MRP, I do not think ((the mail)) would show "City of Sovetsk, such-and-=such a kray". Probably there was only "Military Unit..." and nothing else. I do not know why this is "Sovetsk" in my memory; I do not know. Well, what were your duties? You arrived there as a senior translator-interpreter of the MRP. Imagine that it was located somewhere on the spit, and you were there. What was your job? The point was set up just before I got there, before my arrival... literally. Before this, they were in Germany. So. I arrived, and the work here was purely of such... for everyone, officer and all the soldiers... the work was... simply outfitting the living quarters... Here and... that... the soldiers' mess-hall... the officers' mess... DoclId:327404703 Page 69
HW 532716 DoclId:327404703 Page 70 , _S2CRET —_ 0 @ ~ 67 om everything taken together.... We were concerned with purely housekeeping probiléms. How much time did this take? I do not know; I cannot answer outright; I do not know. From the beginning, the point was faced with the usual problems. In German, the permit was concerned with agent work; that is, they had agents on commercial ships -~ they had Soviet agents and also agents from among the foreigners. | But here, there was absolutely no agent work; it was a new mission. The point, Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, and probably the GRU was changed with the creation, the preparation... rather, you could say... the preparation of ANPs -- Agent((-manned)) Observation Posts (Agenturno-Nablyudatel' nyyéposty) against the event of war. What was it, and how was it organized? I personally did not do this kind of work, because I never had done that kind of work; I had had no experience. Furthermore, I had had no experience with agents. I will tell you now, briefly, what it is and what I did. Well, the officers -- BULAKH, YELISEYEV, and the others.... Tell me only what you did; do not tell me what the other officers were doing. Tell only about your self, because we do not want to lose time talking about other persons. But it was connected with what I did. Well, if it is connected with you, that is alright. They selected people, from among the NCOs, the officers, sailors, specialists, radiomen; then they organized groups of two and three men; they checked the men who were ready to be discharged within six months from the Navy.
HW 53716 . sagen © e - 68 - Alright;~ let them select the people; let us return to your work. ((Nervously:)) My tasks were, my tasks were; I held lectures about the foreign policy of the Soviet State... about the fundamentals of Marxism.... Besides that, when the mail was delivered to the military unit... then, the litters were delivered to our point.... | I was, so to say, an administrative officer; I had such additional functions -- I brought the letters over, and asked what was needed -~ razors, shaving cream, etc. So, so, so, so, so... I mean, supply.... because they were housed in what you might call safehouses. And where were these apartments located? There were a couple in Sovetsk; there were... on the approach to Baltiysk, in Baltiysk, in several places, How were the men whom you supported dressed? You brought them their letters, their personal effects, such as socks, smoker's supplies.... They were dressed in civilian clothes; and they did not go anywhere -- they lived there for two or three months at a time without leaving. And what were they doing there? The officers -— let us say, BULAKH -~ ah... trained them in explosives. YELISEYEV taught them how to collect intelligence data. That lieutenant who was with me -- the tall, dark fellow who lived with me == taught radio. These were short 2-3 month courses. © What else did you do while you were there?’ Nothing else. DoclId: 327404703 Page T1
HW 53716 SEGRET @ feo. © A. Practically to say -- you were assigned a senior translator-interpreter, but you did not work with translations. B. No, no, no; there was no such translation work there. A. And did they assign you as senior translator-—interpreter of English? B. I only have English. A. Well, who knows? May be you know another one. B. Russian. A. Any thing else. B. No other language; I understand a little bit in Ukrainian. A. Do you know how they say, "Proletariat of all countries, unite!", in Ukrainian? B. No. A. "“Ragamuffins of the world, pile up!" Where did you learn Ukrainian? B. I was born in the Ukraine. A. Who in your family speaks Ukrainian? . B. My father knew Ukrainian, and my mother knew it; they forgot it. Of course, they understood it very well. A. Did you hear of the Ukrainian, TIKHOPZDENKO? B. ((Laughs)) No, I never heard such a ((name)). DoclId: 327404703 Page 72
HW 53716 And GOLOPUPENKO? I have heard "GOLOPUPENKO" . Listen, what is the matter? Let us stop our talk for a moment. Of course, it is possible that -= for some reason =-— you went to the Baltic... bit it is impossible to believe that a man, a military -intelligence Point, did not do any intelligence work, did nothing. Only this work, only this work. What -~ to hold lectures on foreign policy or Marxism-Leninism -- this was not ((i.e., could not have been)) your task. This is the work they gave me; that is why I was disenchanted with the work. What could I do there? In the first instance, you seem to have been a political worker, but when you say you delivered letters it looks as if you were Assistant Chief of the Intelligence Point for Supply. ...Not the point, not the point -- for those people that were being trained. Someone was responsible for them. Well, the whole point was responsible for them. For each group, there was a plan: what kind of lectures to give and how many hours, including mine == in foreign policy and Marxisn. Besides that, there were aids (posobiye)... just a minute... there were aids... these were supplied by the GRU; they were printed -— not on a press, but typed. For example -- "The Agent Situation in Norway, Denmark, Sweden"; but it was not the agent network that they had in mind -- it was the cities, DoclId: 327404703 Page 3
HW 532716 @ nn. ® the description of the cities, what there is in the cities, what Sights there are there, the streets, stores, etc., because each group... each group was trained there precisely for dispatch to Denmark, Sweden, ° Norway, in case of war. Of course, the conclusion can be made that these groups were very important and that the MRP was very important, inasmuch as they were preparing agents. Please understand me -- it is just a big title. To dispatch?.. I will explain to you right now; hear me out. May I have a cigarette? Yes. Look how it goes -= these officers, the officers who were instructing... they said that, as work, this was a joke. This was absolutely new work; they had never done such work before. As work, it was a joke. Why? They trained these fellows for two or three months == they do not know anyone else =~ only these three. One was the chief of the group; one was the radioman; and the other was the explosives man. After two or three months they returned to their military units. The commander does not know where they were. The impression is given that they have been on a trip, and the commander does not Know where they have been for two or three months, Then, they return and complete their service in two or three months... And thus they already have been trained; then they are demobilized -- this is their regular service. . They are demobilized, and they leave for home. Their training is a big secret. DoclId:32404703 Page T4 ne
HW 53716 A, @ 2». © There is nothing in their Personnel file about this; nothing is noted. And what happened? In case of war, they are mobilized by the local military commissariat; for example, in the city of Pivan', they took Sgt POPONDOPULO -- he had been trained, and they send him in some military unit. Now, how and where can they find him: This is a joke. . I am sure that their names were on the rolls somewhere. No; of course, on the rolls of the GRU; when they are trained, they are on the rolis of the GRU. But, actually,they do not find half of them. Let us go back a little. BULAKH taught explosives; the lieutenant.... Because he knew that... ...Radio work, etc., and you.... I do not know explosives; I do not know radio work. How to collect intelligence data in that region, I also do not know. That is why they gave me such work. Could it be satisfying‘ Of course not, absolutely not. When I worked in the Far East, at least I felt it was intelligence work . Information collection -= there was intelligence work, but it was far from that ((in the Baltic)). I told you why I went on leave. I was not entitled to it in January; it was too soon. But I spoke with GOLOVKO, and I told him, "Arseniy Nikolayevich, this work does not satisfy me at all. Are you sure that during that time about which you are talking, GOLOVKO SEG DoclId: 327404703 Page 75