104-10310-10119 OFFICE OFFICE APPROVAL ‘INTERVIEWED BY: INPERVIEW FORM 7 NAME: | FORD, Charles _ _ TELEPHONE s ALIAS - OY, OTR Signature | DATE OF INTERVIEW 18 Sept 75 - + TIMEI1Z0-1315 LOCATION’ OF INTERVIEW. " Carrol Arms TRANSPORTATION REQUIRED: YES ° NO _~ FROM HEADQUARTERS |” _ oe . ~~ (time) ——- _ OTHER Be “Postal, Gordon Rhea, Rhett Dawson, - Fred Baron, Robert Kelly. a _ -.* Guiban Operations -*Task Force W- SUBJECT: = | f & ' Assassination of Castro - Mafia connections. COMMENTS: Under oath. This was second meeting. \ MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD: _ Attached. ‘Date —
13-00000 Interview by Senate Committee Investigators Director of Training an Bc | 3245 19 September 1975 DDTR ; Prong DIR - , Chief, Division D a B4 | ys La Assistant to the Director es 6D-15 Has. = he 2 ~~ = om
13-00000 ag % Ay . | Building. CUNHDENTIAL , - 19 Soptember 1975 MIMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD SUBJECT: Interview by Senate Conmittee Investigators .  L. On Thursday, 18 September 1975, I was interviewed for the second time by investigators from the Senate Comaittee. The interview lasted from approximately 11:20 a.m. until 1:15 p.m. My testimony was recorded and will be transcribed. When the transcription is ready I will be required to read it and swear to the truthfulness of the statewents I made. Under ordinary circumstances, a Senator would have been present to swear me in at this in- terview. -However, because of the televised public hearings, no Senators were available. An unidentified wonan operated the equipment which h consisted of a Sony casette recorder ani dictaphone casette recorder. The primwry questioning was by Mr. Postal and Mr. Gordon Rhea, the same investizators with whom I spoke on the earlier occassion. At one point or another during the proceedings three other men joined us for various periods of time. Mr. Rhett Dawson appeared shortly after the interview began and remained for about an hour. ir. Fred Behren (I can't vouch for the spelling) arrived after ebout half an hour and remained for approximately twenty minutes, having received a phone call which took him away. Mr. Bob Kelly arrived shortly_after Mr. Behren and stayed for about 10 minutes longer than Mr. Bebren. The interview was conducted in a room in the Carroll Arns a former hotel across the street fron the Seuate Office Brae ao 2. The meeting began with a reninder that I could have an attorney present and that I could refuse to answer any question which misht tend to incriminate me. I was asked to describe in general terms my work with CIA. I told thes that I joined in 1949; that I was and am now a member of the Office of Training; that in 1960 or thereabouts I had a short tour of: duty with the Economic Action ‘Group in the DDP, and that I went directly from that assignnent to RH/4 in _.. ‘September of 1961. 3. I was asked to recall ny uajor activities while with the Cuban operation “and I did so. I reported that my first assignment was the handling of a Cuban agent, one we were using to build a nucleus of an organization for eventual operations into Cuba. JI identified this man as Mr. Rojas (Mr. Rhea, having heard ay description of this activity at our earlier session, did not pursue this matter any further).
13-00000 a . CONFIDENTIAT 4. The investigators were interested in when I was assigned the code name Fiscalini; the circuustances under which the name was assimmed, and who had assigned it. I toldthem I had seen a Xerox copy of the memorandun (I saw this during a mecting with L111 Sturbits last Friday in Bili's office) which requested that identification in the name of Fiscalini be assigned to me. I explained the circunastances, which Mr. Postal and Mr. Rhea had heard at our earlicr meeting, and.said that I thought the date was the end of tfarch, 1962. The circumstances involved a contact by a New York lawyer, thru the Lepartment ef Justice, concerning a client who had access to Cuba and wanted to visit Castro to put in a special plea on behalf of tne Bay of Pigs prisoners. I identified the individual concerned (I still can't renember his name) as the manager of the Toresa Hotel in New York. I did not identify the lawyer and was not asked for his name. I identified a man I met at a second meeting in New York as “Bubbles Abdallah. I explained that the latter individual pro- posed to accompany the manager of the Teresa to Cuba, the manager being an elderly gentlasan with sone “difficulty in walking. I explained to the investi- gators that I had no further contacts with these people after 1 discovered that Abdallah was wanted, or under indictment - I forget which - by Texas authorities for smuggling drugs from Mexico. Mr. Robert Kelly was clearly interested in pursuing the matter of who assigned my "Code Name.'' I indicated that the docu- mentation that I received came from the Office of Security but that I did not knOW whether that Office selected the name or not. - §. We went over again the story of my contact with a Canadian named ‘Joe" (I know this man's last : nane ‘but have not been asked for it and have not volun- teered it). I described one meeting and a telephone call involving Joe. In the meoting he claimed that he could travel back and forth from Canada - to Cuba; revealed to me that he was interested in starting a smceling activity involving goods on the proscribed list; that he wanted United States citizenship and a sreat deal of money in exchange for allowing us to send materials or tamper with some . O£€ the shipments if we could get the proscribed goods to Canada. I explained: to the investigators that my interest lay in the fact that Joe claimed he could speak with Che Guevara and that I had attempted to get Joe to serve as a means of comumication between us and Che, which Joe refused to do. As for the tele- - phone call, I:told them that when Joe returned from his trip to Cuba he called i to say that big things were going on in Guba and we should meet right away. _ Being aware that at that point we in the Agency were deep into what would later be called the Cuban Missile Crisis, I told Joe I could not see him and that we probably already knew what hoe had to tell me. That was the last I heard of Joe. 6. We spent a great deal of time going over my meetings with the Attorney General and his interest in a small group of Cubans who claimed to have suyporters in Cuba ready to create an uprising in Santiago Province. This is the case de- | scribed in paragraph 3 of my earlier memorandum. The investigators were quite interested in the identity of the man whoa I saw at the request of the.Attorney General. I went over this again in as rach detail‘nas I could reaember But with- out being able to. recall who this man was. I was asked if I could describe the CONFIDENTIAL
13-00000 : a CONFIDENTIAL - man ard I said that I recalled hin as a fairly tall man of average build with black hair, black cyebrows and glasses. Of considerable interest is the fact that perhavs 15 to 20 mimutes later I was shown an 3 X 10 glossy photosraph of Several people walking in front of what appeared to be a public building and .was asked whether I could identify any of the people in the picture. I could ot. Mr. Postal pointed to the central ficure and asked if I could identify hin. I said I could not. (The picture was of a man probably in his mid-sixtics with flowing white hair - somewhat on the order of Sen2tor Keating - a large cown- , curving nose, white, straight eye brows behind dark glasses, a somewhat Lined, puffy face, and a slightly receding forchead accentuated by the fact that his hair was combed straight from front to back. The man was wearing a dark blue or black suit, and one man appeared to be accompanying him to his lett and Slightly ahead, and another man slightly to his right and rear. Without hav- ing any reference ‘points by which to judgc, my best cuess would be tiat the — subject was about 5°10" tall. He appeared to be rather heavy, perhaps in the range of 220 pounds. There seemed to be a caption of some sort at the bottom of the picture but this was hidden from my view.) ifr. Postal asked whether the main figure in the photograph could have been the man the Attorney General directed me to sec. I replied that, even allowing for the difference in years, the man in the photograph in no way+resenbled the man I Saw on behalf of the Attorney General. . 7. Messrs. Postal and Rhea acain brought up the subject of assassination | and asked whether I had engaged in or had heard mention of, in Task Force W or SAS, discussions on the subject of assassination either in general or specifically with respect to Castro. I told the investigators that the subject came up repeatedly when we were speaking with Cubans, many of whom, having been forced to flee Cuba, sincerely wished for Castro's immediate demise. I said that I had never: heard of or engaged in conversations with Agency officers about any plan the direct and only aspect of which was the assassination of Fidel Castro. I pointed out that on a number of occasions I dealt with Cubans who wanted to kill Castro, but that my job was simply to attempt to extract from these contacts the names of people in Cuba who might be of potential use to us in intelligence operations. I said that I had never engaged in plotting with Cubans regarding assassination but that I had many conversations with Cubans regarding their desire co conduct paramilitary ac tivities which, as a by-product, _-kudght well result in Castro's death. I pointed out emphatically that the Agency's policy prohibits political assassination. 8. Iwas asked if I kno ector ants Nestor Sanchez. I told them that I knew them both and that Néstor shared an office for a short period near the end of my attachment with SAS. I was asked if "AMLASH' meant anything to me and I replied in the nogative. This was followed by whether @ilD) and Nestor had discussed with me or mentioned an operation of -theirs involving a high level officer of the Cuban government, a military man who made frequent trips out of Cuba._Again I could only reply in the negative. I added the juxtaposition off Bil ,and Nestor in the context of a single operation surprised “CONFIDENTIAL:
13-00000 "CONFIDENTIAL ne inasmuch as I believed Nestor to have been involved only in psychological operations and (BiTT) working at collecting foreign intelligence. I was then asked if the word "AMOTS" meant anything to me and I said it did but that all ‘I could say was that it had to do with counterintelligence activities. Mr. .Rhea asked me whether I could say that the ‘ANDIS" activity was concerned with ‘cantacting Quban exiles in the Miami area and I indicated that this was my understanding. The subject was not pursued further. S. I was esked about my visit to New Orleans (which I had mentioned during the previous session) and I explained that these two trips were for the purpose of attexpting to find ways of establishing chamels of cormumication between the exilod Cubans in New Orleans and their frionds in Cuba. I indicated that I had been able to come 1p with a very fine prospect, a Cuban, and that I had turned . hima over to one of our FI Case Officers. I alse said that I had several dis- cussilorswith an American whom I declined to identify under the general ground rule relating to sources of information. Messrs. Postal and Rhea asked if I would respond affirmatively 1£ they were to suggest somo initials which might . correspond to the naze of my American contact. I agreed to do this but the initials which they mentioned meant nothing. (Unfortunately, I cannot recall neni) I volunteered the initials of my contact,"FJ", and this produced a blank expression on the part of both investigators and a shrug of Mr. Rhea's shoulders. The final question Y was asked was whether I had any knowledge of the 'Ponchar- train Operation’. I told them that I knew | where Lake Ponchartrain was, and that's as far as it went. 10. We spent a little time on the subject of General Landsdale. I ad- mitted I had attended one meeting in Gencral Landsdale's office in the Pentagon. I was asked whether anyone else was there and said that I could recall only one name, Cornelius Roosevelt, but that there were two other people at the meeting. In response to a series of questions about what was discussed at that meeting, I said that General Landsdale was interested in various paramilitary possibilities and that my role was linited to giving a quick assessment of whether we had the | agent assets to assist in carrying out the various possible operations that General Landsdalo suggested, ll. I was asked whether the term "Mongoose" meant anything to me and I indicated that it was a general term used to refer to a composite of planned operational activities. I said that I had no hnowledye of any specific activity being planned under this name and further explained that it was possible that saze of my Cuban contacts might have been taken over by other Case Officers for use under “Mongoose but that I had no direct knowledges of such having been done. 12, Nr. Robert Kelly expressed considerable interest in the organization of Task Force N. At one point he asked how many echelons there were between me and Mr. Helus. I told then that I reported to Bill Narvey; that my title was Special Assistant; that Mr. Harvey reported to Mr. Helms; that I frequently received CONFIDENTIAL -
13-00000 “CONFIDENTIAL assignment and reported to San Halpern; and that occasionally I wdertook tashs for Druce Ch eever, Harvey's deputy, althouvh these tasks were concerned .with the workings of Task Force W and did not involve contact with the Cubans. om I was asked if there were any Special Assistant other than me in Task Force ¥ «and I replied that itr. Zogby, C/iil/4 prior to tir. Harvey's arrival on tho scene, had been retained as a member of Tasx Force W.in an SA status. I said that there may well have been others bocause people would show up from time to tine for short tours of duty for several months or so and then depart to carry on their work elsewhere, but that I could not recall anyone by name at the present tine. 13. I was asked whether I used the name Fiscalini in circumstances other than those described. I said that I frequently carricd identification in that naze and used it on several occasions. I Uescribed one occasion which was an ams ing - one-time contact with no bearing on any iten of interest to the com it- tee. The investigator asked whether I had ever contacted Qubans in Miami and I replied in the negative. . 14. I was asked if I had ever made contacts with people in New York City other than those described. I said that indeed I had but that in one case, al-. though the man in question lived in New York, the meeting teok place in Newark, New Jersey. In response to a question I said that the lead was provided by the - Fal. I declined to identify the man involved on the grounds of the sensitivity of his position at that tine and the fact that I do ‘not know at present where he is or what he is doing. (This was the beginning of the unsuccessful ECHO Opera- tion which should be recorded somewhere in the Task Force W or ami Station files.) 15. I was asked whether I had any knowledge of a meeting of the Attorney General and Cuban exile leaders in the sumer of 1962. I said that such a meeting would not have been unusual, in ry opinion, but that I had no knowledge. of. such a meeting. I. pointed out that it was common practice among many Cuban leaders to try to acquire the support, or at least the appearance of support, of U.S. agencies and prominent U.S. political figures. I further stated that merous attempts were made to cet the U.S. to support a Cuban government-in- exile and that I had had one necting in Washington with a Cuban leader whe was constantly attempting to get us to support hin as head of such an arrangement. T identified this man as Mario Garcia-Xohly and added that he was sentenced to prison sone years later for counterfeiting Cuban pesos. The name "Kohly’' ob- viously rang a bell with Mr. Postal as he repeated it aloud in a surprised tone - o£ voice. idowever, Mr. Postal did not pursue the matter. 16. Some of the other topics which were surfaced in comection with the above major items: I was asked whether I knew the following people or recomized the names. (My responses arc ° susmarized in the parentheses and I can't vouch for all the spellings): CONFIDENTIAL
13-00000 .. . “CONFIDENTIAL (1) Carlos Teppedino (never heard of him) (2) Jose Orta (never heard of him) (3) Sam Giancana (read about him in newspaper; never met him) .(4) Poselli (read about him in the newspaper; never met him) “ (5) Trafficante (read about him in newspaper; never met him) e (6) Manuel Artime (a prominent member of Cuban brigade; never met him) | (7) Big Jim O'Connell (heard about. him in the newspaper; never met him) I was asked whether "No Name Key"*meant anything to me and I gave a negative response, ~ . I was asked if I had visited Chicago in the course of my work and I told them I had not. 17. This is probably the appropriate point to underline my conviction that the main, if not the only, point of concern to the investigators is whether I was directed to sally forth and initiate contact with members of the underworid in the U.S. and who directed me to do so. Their interest is even more pointedly _ focussed on whether I had anything to do with the Rosselli, Giancana, et al, "operations. Once again, I explained that my job was broader thancthis by a long shot, and that I was never directed to take the initiative in establishing _ contacts with the underworld. I said that several, probably no more than five _ or six, of the people with whom I dealt were somewhat ‘'shady"' characters, in some cases with recorded run-ins. with law enforcement agencies. Charles D. Ford Chief, Training Services Staff, OIR CONFIDENTIAL re rs