AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: TITLE: DATE: PAGES: SUBJECTS : DOCUMENT TYPE : CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : v9.1 HW 53244 Docld: 32313602 JFK Assassination System Identification Form Agency Information Peleased under the John FBI . Kennedy 124-10333-10009 Assassination Records Ollection Act of 1992 HQ (44 USC 2107 Note). ase#: NW 53244 Date: CR 65-68530-157 n6—-13-2017 Document Information FBI BRANIGAN SULLIVAN 07/16/1964 132 ANATOLI GOLITZYN PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT Secret 1B Redact 08/04/1998 APPROVAL OF CIA MEMO, INC TRANSCRIPT Page 1 5/21/201
‘the period 1953 t0:1955 he claims he was reading £ files, and then . che ‘began to work on correspondents, and to do- some work with » code clerks, What was he doing between 1955) ‘and 1957, 19587, ae ae Do you have any ‘idea? a uO 7 He worked in the American Départment against the Embassy a | o a ‘ \ : a personnel, ‘That: could be ‘against military, correspondents. 1. Che oO don't recall, the situation but: I think in 1953 or so, 1954, -he worked . on 2 military (Amer ican) 2 and I think he could have gone , along those oO tines until: 1958, oe — co : - 7 a + | ‘Do you ‘know. vn he was transferred from the American - ; : ~ "Department? - : a che ae | . 7 a 7 : Yes. ‘That is ‘another thing. He’ says “= / and again I think he he 3 no . Hes -- that he. iad some, I mean amet he acknoledgea that in. 1954 he had some. > troubles with [w wornan and got an wvoienenn] “aless, 4 and in ‘that 1 way” he had troubles and was. punished. ‘But as i recall it, these things happened in 2 1987 or 1958, and that ° XN eS 7 was s practically the. reas on why he ° was: “dismissed ‘from the : American Department, why 3 he. was sent to the Tourist Department. © a : 3 : So. here he also twists the facts. tt is a lie because it very clearly’ a 7 supports his explanation about his career in: those years. ’ That also of | ‘cour se -- now it, ‘can abe only a conclusion, ‘He claims: that he was. accepted. in the. Party--that he joined the. Communist : HW 53244 DBocld:32313802 Page 2?
~ Yes, without question. - : on 7 “And to know it in aétail enough to give him the advice or - . ~ 7 7 counsel the guidance,” ‘and the brief s so > that he. would be ‘able to, | 5 nae the contacta. . . noe - : A ae ‘ -— oe o a - _ og . It is not his knowledge , itis their lie’ which was. » oo ; 2 But they 1 had to ‘know something: very definitély. | - os That, lie was-worked ‘out’ on the’ ‘basis sof very exact. infor- 7 “, : are ~ ation about. . _ 7 - 7 Co - - a Z a i 7 7 7 7 ; 7 vt. X yo The state of aifairs. - mo ; Yes. “and about ¢ our 1 problems. : — : 7: / - ; i aans : c : They would not have 2 necessarily 6 gotten that out of CIA, ‘they Z could 1a have gotten i it ‘out of other. a ~ . . ae e ; a Z - o ~ They. could get it t through different and Pthrough many. ‘banned be - Z oe through French, through ‘British, but then awe cannot exclude an: UE 7 Aeiican « channel 00% | _ ° a . . . } Par ne “Ness But not just. CIA.” It “could be CIA: LI think i it iss. - ~ important, because when he ree came out, ‘he: ale ere aroused -- : oR - poe “you kiow: | ‘hwhat ean T io to help?" but later - because of his ‘own ) character fhe is isa ‘drunk ‘and. he: isa. a, worrlan: chaser = he. got a ; ; difficult... “But: bie line, the way i he. presented niniselt ws eanetiy : " . ; o ; : 4 of as you say: ipa ‘ao everything, I am ; at your service." a ci ; Te : — ve HW 53244 DoclId:32313802 Page 4
AOS Where would GRIBANOV fit. into. this? ve Ae one ‘of the 2 supporters of that operation, oR : oe He would have pat the plan forward. “Yes. .On behalf of the Second Chief Directorate, ‘There is no - i ‘ oe question,: ee - + te Se : 1: es . aoe — : oA. . i. But do. you. believe that be. was a. close friend of NOSENKO!s.? — . “4 oe No. That is completely wrong, Se -. Dee a - a roa ' aa | i NOSENKO | has gone back. on ‘that, by” the’ > ways Hey now: has. said” he only saw ‘him « _once..or” ‘twice. 7 oe a At this + pointy we can, discuss niefinapucy] epee It is here that NOSENKO has. a connection’ with the fuabvcrf Rents. 6 Ganvcye), “was 5 ‘sent, | L think, with two missions: first, to mislead about French | a - situation; and second, to ° get access | to me ne fin England == to > get access.” to! me in. order to influerice my writing” and 50 Oe” It is interesting ooo that he was sent to eon in. that ways, there were ‘some a . a "they knew that I. was- infEnsiangjs ut t they did. not know that. I alr ready bad left. . He < came: th Beptember; TL left: infaugust i It is,’ of course, _ oe “interesting that he came 1 tofEagtandfita I think that was(i (aDucT a a mission in ‘generale AS £ they evidently got.t back information that - G — “not: succeed i in his mission, that. he. himself was = me ' i ; : “under ‘some suspicions, , they apparently begat to ‘think’ now to- do aly i - : HW 532744 DBocld:32313802 Page 5
7 a later appeared t in the VIADUCT ‘operation, : , ’ the Canadian. Ambassador} the bit # absuDETEAN OM oe) did not plan his defection from. the > beginnings op . - the same euiding hand that ran the NOSENKO operation also. ran the oe course, disturbed aby situation nk le a “ng SS —_ more drastic'things to impr ove situation and in that way they began nC to act with NOSENKO in, view! of defecting in the beginning of 1964. We don't, know - “— sent evidently i in 1962 they did not plan to. 5 sent NOSENKO « outs. oF _— have_ iz 1 defect?” ue aa . “Yes, 0 0.0 i So ot But certainly in. 1962 some of ‘the > things ‘that NOSENKO said’ The. bit about WATKINS, “wo “t In that \ ways, L dont mean. they built cee at - ye : ‘that time, even maybe earlier, “but tay point is. ‘they appar ently. “ . ' 4 ‘ ‘ “Not NOSENKO, ALL L am | saying is that it is =x quite: clear that < f ; “viabuer « operation, a ne 7 oe ae oe Doan? —_ me .. . A a an . ~ , Yes. You’ see, besides American ‘situation they, were, of. + And Britain too. Ce ae , . « : - "te to. - _— . £ . ~ ~ : - ~ Yes. - oe i ee And also you ‘have an. . additional fact that as. each Operation took» x "place: you | had the sources ‘or "penetrations reporting, back the results. ae Yes, “The results were cumulative, a very ‘flexible situation, a Between, VIADUCT 1s coming and NOSENKO's coming there is. very HW 535244 DoclId: 32313802 Page 6
sal he vents eee ie Rad Wininend ae e The journalist Jack RAYMOND, So this whole story of the’ escape and his being ‘shot. ee Tt is nonsense, of cour se, without question. And here « ‘of cour se .. . as. it has connection it is.important that besides support of cherepanovts documents, NOSENKO tr ied to assure that VIAD UCT . ven is completely genuine, ee . - - | a 7 - | | 7 And that CHEREPANOV thing really nappened, ey - No, I ‘mean besides CHEREPANOV~- that i is clear. -. Bubhe : also, showed that viaDucT is genuine defector; and he not only of - : which Be showed t ‘that but he. also supported ali information fvas. given by me viapvon ie pevean fe hd it is s also, of, course, ‘important how, we i ; they built up that situation diing ‘NOSENKO!s defection | in ~ . Switzerland and in France, 2 — . . May. L go back to the: CHEREPANOV v thing again? ‘This shows D Loy _ ‘ an 1 under standing of how they work. Do you remember the = timing , cf oy oa. . - : ~ 2 a . . “now | -~ ‘this: is the. 4th of November 1963 -« at the same time this , - was. going on you ‘had. the BARGHOORN incident with which» Do, Xx S 7 NOSENKO | is very obviously identified - -- - you know, he ‘came. into _ the BARGHOORN ‘operation, “Now, he was, according to, his cstozy, wy at ‘that time in 1963) 3 in the: ‘Tourist Department - -- one of the © Deputy | Chiets of the. Totfiot Department, . He was deeply involved. in the - en ; " BARGHOORN. ‘operation a and Presumably,as o one- of the Deputy. Chiets,, a HW 532744 DBocld:32313802 Page 7 | |
mee ee el ' . i cae ee te ameeremen nt tae teatime ae nat oe ani i ae ta meena nade aetna Tinta ate atte shia Cataieh a D ieette ete oo ae for NOSENKO.: “Because of the impact of the information and the Likedominoes, Hit one and they all fall,» . Everything i is interconnected, over: and over: and over: again, “And. that makes For them, of course, Nery: difficult to do anything in the future, a oe - Ste ‘That is rights i contradicts ‘the » eo e because. it should be and that of course ‘makes our situation a , eas. ier ° ; way do: you think they have gone S.0, far - -- at least it, seems to aN me far too. far’ “~ in interconnecting everything? TA other words, “ft ~- i _ it is- almost’ too. obvious. One thing is linked to the « other, and in oe turd is linked to the other. Why do you think they did so much’ of | = o- . 7 “knew Anatol had doubts about him “- - everybody « else believed in his ” Bona fides. Se, if they had | a penetration they would have a. feeling | that he was going over r very nicely, And there were a. number who | yO thought he: was the hottest thing that ever existed, The, same goes, goat + fact that they would ‘never know that we were still j in direct and wd . ow immediate communication in which he was getting information and HW 535244 DoclId: 32313802 Page 6 Let me 2 just ¢ go further in your statement, -Wher{Frap ued] came - ac) England, Fite. ere. wére. many, people involved. "Only those people who 7 - cine ee
wh eel sa inka btn "i i Da har ts i nN i a in aie ratte etn Limca Sate ai Meee - and SO on, : re i ns x putting his fingers on these. matters. In other words, if we.did “note . “have Anatol and were ‘working only from the information, it. ‘is. quite sox(uppucr with the ne British certainly goes for NOSENKO here, oO ‘because u up ‘until very recently the FBI believed that NOSENKO was fo the most important single element th hat t they. had | ever seen, . because their  opetation ws was “successful, “And; in my opinion, ne : ; of all they. had’ success with PENKOVSEIY, After PENKOVSKIY, “ene: intr oduced NOSENKO, and evidently they had information that | | 7 7 ’ he was, , doing wel, And in that way, ‘they saw that. there. would be. no Soy sesger to connect him with VIADUGT, .or with CHEREPANOV. . ‘ ft a . , a been the. greatest window they had ~- in one sense ~~ of contacts m came “to-your people i in , Geneva and: says: ul have important infor ~~ Ae, | sation for you. uv What is it? First of all, BELITSKIY i he is” 7 " ae i .¢ py, possible that-he would be in a senior advisory position. This goes ve i N a . F ~ “ wee ee ee ee an Oh, yes. Tn general, you see; evidently they build’ up t that, ? { “His report pack to Mosc ow "after the fir st t meeting ‘must have - ne | wot : ve 7 ad ; se a “Apsolutelys. ad oe a i And here’ of course again the auestion:. why was his: int¥ oduction to. American n inteltigence done in 19625 and, namely, when NOSENKO- a as ~ -& re ! PE ovocateur of KGB. "Certainly they ‘could assume that. I know that - . ~ : nn ae ; <3 about BELITSKIY. Bur we 2 also. cannot exclude that at that time. HW 5352744 DoclId: 32313802 Page 9
a Yes. : That hasn't been ratified. The treaty has not been ratified. It won't even come up for debate panty 4 for many months. And that was certainly dangerous point for future.’ And then he also ‘has his hopes. tf he could be for certain period led to.b lieve that . he could be tried, it would be useful. But, of course, he is not | _afraid because it makes prestige for him in the future and he comes back -- he could be exchanged in the way the British did with LONSDALE, _ But that's why the KGB is and will be more active with provécations. Of course, I understand they were eager to save WYNNE because there was big pressure there. What I'd like to ask if we could do is in preparation for this interrogation phase -- and assuming that there will be an increased investigation in the personne! field, which you will work on with SOLIE -- that'll go ahead, and assuming that we agree that when we start with NOSENKO : welll bring VIADUCT here and have thatcdn a parallel -- But the point here is this -- and why ! went to still try t to center on this.  Parinasfue like t6 have the first opportunity to interrogate VIADUCT. directly, alone. And naturally he would do it here. ‘Now, shoulda't we consider doing: this sometime soon? Instead of waiting until this other pr roblem of NOSENKO -- in other words, how long can we continue . to keep both of these people in suspended animation? os ] ] ; i ) i i q i i 1 i AW 53244 DoclId:32313802 Page 10
“Well: I don't think NOSENKO will take quite that long. | I mean, I think i you could do this, if you could bring VIADUCT over here. , Now. - After the fourth of July. — Thatis what I mean. ‘For a week or two we could play games. © That's right. But then we don't have to really because[Arthur els that he has enough. to break him. But where? ‘Here. 2 We ought to be able to sit down right here. He'd do it here because you're here. But in England [nob ay would know for what reason he brought here. Oh, the reason would be that he was coming here to work with us necause he thinks it's the best thing in the world. ; He would be invited here asa hero. | That's how welve played it all along. That possibility hasn't been disturbed at all, Now I think at first it is better to interrogate VIADUCT. Well, at the same time I want to be getting ready for the NOSENKO thing. We have to be thinking about it and I would like to get as many . - leads in addition to the major points which it is clear that he has lied ; HW 5352744 a == DoclId: 32313802 Page i1
at ee ee ay cite ei cetioimncbieinbenn came cab ten ne Conneaut i ; i | ! i _ Although with eDWwIN|st course there is difference because I told not only ‘at that time that{EDWIN as an important agent -- very important agent. ocuments. Qu re) Q ¢ 5 oO is} ct n onl ot . a fe) rs e, O - @ rs dS rai) @ K pe _ < ) 4 ia fe) a M Qu No, that was a direct quotation. That quotation could appear in more than one document. ‘How long was it, was it a long section? Yes, I'm trying. to get to that, 1 Maybe in several, but that was big quotation, explanation and that can be a document only -- I know I don't think that it would be distributed outside the United States, as I understand now. Well, what was the purpose of your studying it? Why was it in- cluded in this ‘study you were reading ? What are the Americans doing against the Soviets. Training. Just examples, you see. They do such work, they are quoting documents like this. | ‘You feel that if we're able to produce something like that, you'll recognize it? ’ .res, I'm sure of that. Now heve in your penetration, it's interst- -ing that he mentioned of cour sefSizA PROGR without inside knowledge, that I discussed that matter here I doubt that they would risk giving away SHAPIRO.F: sean confirm my information. The same with(SDwin |S) I mean, could be an intelligence officer. And -- HW 535244 DoclId: 32313802 Page 12
he could bea British or American and that is why I told both. And I--. ' I mean recornmended to make some investigations. but at least French -- they -- got such information about GRIBANOV and _ ANDREYEVA Why did you tell the British? Because I was not sure about the nationality. My idea was that “Well, what did you think about the story they gave him to account for the cryptonym EDWIN ac) “Had you heard offBEVAST YANO AQ That namely it was to hide -- just to give you ideas that(SEVAST YANO that is it was old. _-finished, all over -- “Yes. I know but did you -- have you ever heard ofSevastyanov pS does it -+ is this a -- | | No, evidentally without question he is their agent, but not... | Everybody knows it... Then of course -- it is also interesting. that he mentions the French x ; businessman DEMICHEL. : | | | DEMICHEL, yes. GRIBANOV and ANDREYEVA -- of course now, it supports prac- tically. - - but also now it's evidentally -- | | That ties. into the VIADUCT -- , It's evidentally French, yes. Not at least, maybe not one of, HW 5352744 DoclId: 32313802 Page 13
and their interest towards businessrmen. Andthe same, of course, « says VIADUCT. What also drew my attention was[FAURER, [[§) Eanmenftphonetic) -- and here I think it's interesting that he mentioned the name [carmen Or did not mention that, I did not - f a ; Wad. know it. But I said that there was a girl visited Moscow as tourist who was approached and who planned to be transferred to some NATO organization or so. : Here I would like to get all the results of inve stigations of that case in CIA and in FBI separately. - Because that material can be done. NOSE NEO came and told that and even . mentioned her name. that such recruitment was done, and so forth. Without que stion he has in mind that case which I described. I am not sure that he gave the name. What name? The right name -- that is, whether he gave her genuine name. Weil, there is such a person. . . x Yes. But what I want to read there and to be sure that it was name: and was same as person whom I meant. And the second point, if, for example, we knew that it was leakage from here or from FBI, then we can make this conclusion about at least who had access to it, in CIA andin FBI. . My idea, therefore, is to give me results of investigation of FAURER, CARMEN |in ‘CIA and FSI. And the list of people who had HW 53244 DBocld:32313802 Page 14