13 to release information doesn't have anything to do with the it is a CIA document. We then would go to the CIA and get { it from them. . 7 | So in effect, we would get everything. And the releas- : : ing authority means whatever we can release we will. _— 2 sensitivity of the material, as we have seen in the past, 3) as it does with the image of some of the agencies in their 4 own embarrassment or what they perceive to be their embarrass F3 | ment. ; é Id there any kind of documentation we have that spells s 'y out what the releasing authority -- - 8 Mr. Blakey. The’ releasing authority is a technical word . | add what it means is. there are two kinds of documents that 2 1 | they can have. Documents that they themselves have generated g | That is obviously within the releasting authority. 2 1 | The second class ig documents given to them by a third : 13 | agency. And that is not within their releasing authority. 3 14 || We have to go to the third agency. mo / : ‘ What we have been doing is carving up the pie, getting 5 6 | an agreement with every agency so, for example, if we went to ic 7 the Secret Service and said give us everhting on Lee Harvey 5 2 Qswald, they would give us under this all the documents that | : 19 | they created. Those documents that they derived from another : a agency, for example, the CIA, they would tell us the name, | date and place of the document and number and would tell us | | | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Docld: 32262402 Page 15
Rl 300 7TH wD rey 23 24 2 3 4 z § a“ z a s '7 & 8 Se ~ J 9 a = 10 f = 2 | a = 1 g g z 13 i = S14 KR = e 1s z | iy = 18 = S| Ps ia oy wn { | i} f | | | 25 Docld: 322762402 Page 14 only a third party can release you must go to the third and get and get permission to turn it over. By getting the Secret »Service, the FBI and the CIA, we have gotten all of the agencies now, I think the basic agencies on the Kennedy side anyway, who will have documents either in their own files or in-the files of other agencies, so we should be seeing everything. Mr. Dodd. With regard to the disclosure of information, I may have raised this once before. As I read the paragraph 5, there will be no disclosure without the prior written consent of, in this case I am looking at the Department of Secret Service, J guess. that is what I am looking at here, - or his delegate. How are we going to get around the eventual problem when it comes to writing a report and certain information material that clearly has come from one of these agencies where we decide for their own reason, because apparently they don't have to give any reason other than they deny consent to allow it to be made public? ‘Mr. Blakey. What we will do, we won't do it without their consent, and if you read the last paragraph fully, part of paragraph 5, unless we sue them. In other words, we will | sit down in good faith and negotiate out the maximum release possible. If there is still something they want to hold, we | | want to let it go and they want to hold it, litigation will ALBERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 16
REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, 0.C. 29024 (202) SS4¥~2345 “a WF & . 1g & : E19 i S 20 21 oS = 27 22 23 | 24 25 Docld: 322762402 Page even. sitting there with a couple of agents to explain to me "| : | | | | 15 ensue and we will both end up being bound by whatever the courts tell us, which is prohably where we are anyway. Mr. McKinney. That is probably’ a case we ought to have, too. | . Mrs Blakey. ‘The interesting thing. is we are in the best of all possible litigation postures. We have got the documen and.if ligitation ensues they will be in the position of taking a public position that we cannot release something tha we think is necessary to explain what happened to Martin Luther Kind or John Kennedy. 80 I think from a practical standpoint, I just don't think they: are going to quarrel with us, they can't afford the heat. | . Mr. Dodd. With regard to the Department. of Justice, last year I went down and spent time going over the assassi-~ nation file of Oswald, and they are all excised, and I was trying to read one page with numbers all over the sides of them and they were xerox copies and it was a laborious task, what each part meant... Why is it necessary, if we have the proper security clearances,. that we cannot have total access to unaycised material, then let the Department make a judgment as to what they would like to excise? Mr. Blakey. What you saw was I think the file excised ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 17 ee ns a a eee A se RR spelen
16 1 pursuant to the Freedom of Information standards. Mr. Dodd. Probably was. 2 3 Mr. Blakey. Which is very general. Ours go beyond that J: ai. The only thing they say they will be openly hoiding back from 5 us is the identity of live informahts. P Mr. Dodd. Why would they hold that back from us if we ‘7 } have the security clearance? 3 | _ Mr. Blakey. If you remember reading, not last week but 9 the previous week, in the New York Times Magazine an-iarticle 10 by Nick Gage, that indicates that Organized Crime sectionnin the Department of Justice has lost, been killed, 23 informants. 2 | and there is some question, Gage alleges at least, some ques= 13 | tion that that leak came from within the Department: of 1d Justice, within the FBI itself. 18 Mr. Devine. Law enforcement agency, their life blood REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 202% (202) SS4-2345 16 is informants and they can't exist without them and when they | Docld: 32262402 Page 16 — a 17 | dry up why it makes it a pretty ineffective agency and I a i think that they try to protect live informatns at all cost. ° 19 | Z can certainly understand their attitude on that and I an . € " know that there is any great need on our part to know the | | 21 | identity. of live informants if they will vouch for the | OS | integrity and credibility of the information supplied. | 23 | Mr. Dodd. I agree... I am sensitive to the whole | 26 | questipn of leaks, obviously, and. the effect on law enforce- | 2s | nent efforts, but I wish I could function on the same with the : | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. |
“17 5 e 18 & n E 19 e € 20 | 21 23 24 25 Docld: 322762402 Page transcends this investigation. : REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 20024 (202) S$54-2345 a ze oF 8 = 6&6 2 oo ~~ & nm, w wR = ‘ eee EE EE IS ES FS NT HA NN EE NE SE ST SR eenan, Si ws Pw eve -stren a Sean So OOS UETY ie aaa “4 17 same degree:of faith... Whether or not someone is a live informant or a dead informant or just a name of someone who is hothing,. I never can make that determination, you are looking at something. that has been ‘excised and if we are limited in the amount of people that can have access to the - documents in the first place I don't see where necessarily we are going to increase the'litke Lihona, of leaks any more than they alzeady exist, they have already been going on in the agency itself. ~~ | Mr. Blakey. Their posiiton is, it is not just us, I don't really mean. this or not, but what they say is you guys are okay, you have. got all your security clearances, you have got a tight system of security over there, and they ‘will say Bob, look I know you and I trust you, but what are we going to do about the blank blank committee. If you get it how can we refuse then. The Presidential character of this is such that we can't ‘resist them. How are we going to say in court on the next motion to suppress that we can't turn it over? We really have to take the principal position that no live informants are ever turned over, period. And this is an issue that Now, I might add that when they do excise, there is a provision in-here what we call for random audit, we will call for the number of excisions on a random basis and then . ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. ING. 19 ; eee ace em ete oe re eaten ete eR
WS 16 a7 = . i 18 - wi z= 19 ~ iJ S 20 7 a : Ses SS a 23 24 25 SSS Se. : S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C, 29024 (202) SS4-2345 —=s Docld: 322762402 Page 18 when I will sit down with them and go over in detail why these excisions were made to see if they were made properly, and so. there is a check on them, it is not just a blind acceptance of what they ‘have been doing, and one of the reall remarkable characters of these two agreements, in fact three of them, is.for the first time a Congressional committee has gotten agreement for random audit, and I say this reluctantly because I don't think we should talk about it. We got it, let's keep it and let's not crow about it, we might lose it. Mr. Sawyer. If you dealt with the FBI or really any law inforcement agency, on this names of informants , they will go to prison before they will tell you who their informants are. This is a life and death matter to them and they don't care, they feel this absolute trust that has been vested in them and the life of the witnesses depend on it and they will be like newspaper people, they. will go to prison, there is no way you can negotiate then out of this. Mr. Blakey. The place to litigate this is at the end of our investigation when we know precisely how many excisions they want to hold back and we want to look at. There may be two or three. If it turns out there is not any there is no sense in litigating. If we stick at this point and insist on it we don't get any files, in which case our investigation ends now. So I think given our time limitations this is better than I thought we would get. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 20
Docld: 322762402 30 7TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 2024 (202) $54-2345 12 13 14 - AS a ee ee | armenian ae a 19 The limitations are adequate to do our job. | Mr. Dodd. Do we have everyone now? Mr. Blakey. These are the three major ones. Well, I think maybe we will enter into an agreement with or propose an agreement to the Alcohol and Tobacco and perhaps Customs. Mr. Dodd. What I aws going to suggest is INS. Mr. Blakey. Well, that is right, Immigration and Natural- ization Service. They are not major problems. Once you get on from Justice, one from Treasury, and one from the CIA, the others fall in line pursuant to their agreements, the previous agreements: Mr. Dodd. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The. Chairman. Okay, Mr. Fithian. Mr. Fithian. No questions, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. No questions? Mr. Devine. I renew..my motion. The Chairman. Okay, properly moved that these documents be approved. The Clerk will call the roll. The Clerk. Mr. Stokes. Mr. Stokes. Aye. The Clerk. Mr. Devine. ‘Mr. Devine. Aye. | { O° | The Clerk. Mr. Preyer. (No response) | The Clerk. Mr. McKinney. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. Page 71
_ a. ° -_ “~ le ~ _e ~— a a “ a tn  , PS 3 Re 390 7TH STREET, S.W. REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 200246 (202) 554-2345 8 ries re) = ao tn a w rey _ ‘ je SS SS SS SS SE Led Ne rs w Ww in Docld: 322762402 Page 22 The No. The (No (No. The Mr. The Mr. The (No Mr. The (No The Mr. The 20 McKinney. Aye. Clerk. Mr. Fauntroy. response) Clerk. Mr. Thone. response) Clerk. Mrs. Burke. response) Clerk. Mr. Sawyer. Sawyer. Aye. Clerk. Mr. Dodd. Dodd. I will vote present. I am moving. response) . Clerk. Mr. Fithian. Fithian. Ayé: Clerk. Mr. Egar. response) Clerk. Five ayes, one not voting. Dodd. One present. Chairman. Okay, .the motion is adopted. ‘I think once again we have forgotten proxies..can be Mr... used. WE ought to try. The Clerk will contact all members on the day of our méeting and try to get proxies. I think it will help expedite our business in Committee. Blakey. - ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
1 2 3 4 z § bY é P— 2 64 s 7 & 3 & 3 9 a z 10) g = i | = 2 rt = 13 a 13 = Rn E . e 1§ 2 | & | s a7 E = * | 4 n = 19 ~ = 20 ati BS | { 23 | | 24 | 2s | H | ye | Docld: 322762402 Page 21 Mr. Blakey. The next issue to tak up, Mr. Chairman, has a number of dimensions to it. I would draw the Committee's attention to the passage of the Federal Pay Comparability “Act of 1970, pursuant to which the President issued his Executive Order giving. all executive employees a 7.05 percent raise. That has been to our knowledge generally followed by all the standing committees. People have been given an auto- matic percent raise. I would underline the phrase in the title, however, Federal Pay Comparability Act. It was not designed as a cost of living or as a merit process, and in light of the fact thqt we just adjusted our salaries in August, making an effort to achieve comparability -- while - my staff may impeach me for this -- I cannot in good faith suggest that an automatic seven percent be given at this time I think the salary structure was, with some compensation which have grown up since the last time we talked on this subject, are roughly ‘equitable and more or less comparable. Consequently, I am going to recommend to the Committee that there not be an automatic seven percent raise given across the board. I would raise with you the following however’, as we have -goné over the budget in the period of time since August. It “seems to me that we need to increase the number of people. The last budget I gave you contemplated $2 million $328,500 annthl. basis with with 108 people. It is my judgment now ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. “23
Soa 2 3 4 2s t 2 «CO = ' s 7 & 4g Se a 5 9 a = 10) & 1 eu a < = | Pt = - 13 Fer 3 a 14 a oe 6 15 2: = 16 = “a m7 & | | Ps | & n z 19 = 20 eee?! | ad 22 | i 23 | 25 | t | | I Docld: 322762402 Page 22 that we really ought on an annual basis to operate with 114 people. This is an addition of one lawyer on the Martin Luther King side, two document clerks on the Martin Luther King side, one deputy chief clerk to assist the chief clerk in the setting up of hearings, which is going to be a major administrative burden; far more than even Elizabeth Burning can do. | | If we take that salary structure on an annual basis, wi some equitable adjustments, it would figure out on the yearly basis to $2 million $439,500. We will spend in fact, however -~ this is an authorized basis on a 12 month budget -- we will in fact spend approxi- mage $450,000 less this year. This is directly related to the fact that we haven't hired people as quickly as we night have and we haven't fone as much field work as we might have. My suggestion to you is the new budget be approced at 114 and at that figure that would giv eus over the two year.: cycle, under the $5 million that was originally authorized, and we would pick up in the second year what we didn't spend - in the first year. "4 So in effect we would come in under the two year budget, . smanicnnahamemmmnmenetamen sate oneseemeesan ne we would spend in fact less this year than we were authorized, and we would have less than 115 people. I know that is kind of complicated to juggle figures | ‘ | around but I would be glad to answer any questions about eithe ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 24