"SECRET C -~ 36 - : C ((their coats)) downstairs _ on the first and second floors. ((There are)) two places = two cloak-roons. And when you go to eat at the dietetic restaurant (dietstolovaya), you wear your coat to the second floor, where you remove ((it)). If you go up ((above the second floor)) _ well, on business _- then | Pale s you remove ((your coat)) here, below. re q if I removed ((my coat)) below, on the first floor, as I entered. A. What ((was)) there, cloak-room attendants, man and woman (garderob-~ shchik byl i garderobshchitsa)? B. Yes, there was a woman, a cloak-room attendant. A. You went up. Then (Dal'she)? B. I went up to the floor indicated in the pass, “found this room, knocked, opened ((the door to)) the room; there, I, well -- as far as I remember, three or four officers were sitting there. A. To whom did you speak (obratilis' )? B. I don 't remember. I said: "Here is the pass; my name is ((B's surname)); I was told to come here." , But one of them said: "Wait; I will call you." A. How do you think -= I would not have wanted to remind ((you)) again that a person who has worked so many years must know exactly -= is the name of the person who is visiting ((C'going" = idet)) and whom shown on the pass or not? B. But I am explaining to you. A. You could not...., HW 532716 DBocld:32404699 Page 40
HW 53716 Pett C ~ 37 - () ((Interrupts)) But I will explain to you. I will tell you == why? Because I do not remember, I do not remember. But usually it is shown who orders the pass. mcneoornnnt seni etna ays Smetana {Pree mPserhes PAE HOMNEATASDEAS ASE ape psntany PEO vest yey ie STOPS * An ordinary case officer or a senior case officer cannot order a pass; that is, he can write out the pass, but someone among his superiors (iz rukovodstva) signs ((it)). Now, you have issued it, but still you must confirm if the deputy chief of Department (otdel), the chief of Department, signs it by hand (v pis mennom vide) = that is how it is (vot tak). Now, orally (v ustnom vide), the officer, how, here now... We will come back to this: the pass procedure (k poryakok propuskov), etc.; we will talk more of this. That is why I am here (Dak i ya). You ask me; I explain to you. I am talking to you about this case. I cannot believe that a person has worked for so many years and does not know exactly whether the name of the employee whom he was visiting (k kotoromi on idet) was shown on the pass or not. He goes up to the sixth floor and says: "Who needs ((B's surname?))" No, not to the sixth floor, but to room six hundred... such-and-such and there some room six hundred (XG)... I ((am)) ((B's surname)) and.. I have appeared (yavilsya), I do not know to whom to speak (obratit'sy who was sitting there, I do not know who, to whom must I turn (obratit' sya). | To my thinking, tommy thinking, to my thinking, a name was shown there in the pass... I do not remember; let us suppose ((that the name)) there ((was)) PUSTYSHKIN, PODUSHKIN. | | I could have opened ((the door to)) the room and said: "My name is C(B's surname)): who here is Comrade PODUSHKIN or PUSTYSHKIN?"’ He ((would have)) said: "I ((am he)); you wait for me; I will call you." DoclId: 327404699 Page 41
HW 53716 ((And that would have been)) all, An employee who had worked 10 years in the organs of the KGB == he immediately can say that a name is shown there or is not show. He will not hesitate, think up ((something)), and say: to my thinking, it was, or it was not; because the regulations (pravila).... ((Interrupts; XG -- A and B speak at the same time)) ... I know what is shown and not shown and I myself made out passes and I myself signed ((them)), as... deputy chief of department, and now one can simply order ((passes) ) by telephone, well, from the chief of a section (otdeleniye). | An ordinary employee orders ((the pass)), but a chief of section and higher confirms ((the order)), and it is both with a name and without a name. You have arrived at the Pass Bureau (Byuro propuskov); you will submit (otdayete) your document. What did you say to them? I said that there is a pass here for me; it must be a pass to Building 12. ((That is)) all. I gave my officer's identification (("officer's booklet" - ofitser- skaya knizhka)). What else did he ask you in the Pass Office? I don't remember. I do not remember what he asked. I do not remember what (kak) I said, ((or)) what he asked. You see, as they say, these are such small things on the face of it; when a person has worked so many years and can not say exactly, but how it is in fact (kak na samom dele byvayet), of course, comes under question (stavit pod vopros). DoclId: 327404699 Page 42?
HW 53716 (~ ~ ~ om B. I am telling exactly how it is. But how, what I said, what was said, this, of course -- if this is the basis for the decision of the question about me, then excuse it.... A. This is not the basis for a decision, but.... B. ((Interrupts)) Well, so you base ((a decision)) on such things as this, you understand me.... A. ... But one of the hooks (zatsepka) which.... B. Precisely so, a hook.... | A. ... Brings us to a stop and again forces us to speak.... B, ... You yourself can wholly ((understand)) that a person cannot remember what (kak) he said while talking at the little window (obrashchayas' v okoshko) of the Pass Bureau ((and)) what he was asked. ((XG =- A and B speak at the same time)) A... Anything, however small, is essential (sushchestvennaya). B. We, intelligence officers and counterintelligence officers, we daily pass by thousands of small points (melochi) which we do not notice. I, or I notice, on which our memory fixes, it leaves no traces (ne ostavlyayet sled). We remember what it was. If we will see ((it again)) _- ( (we say )) "yes, I saw this", if I had noticed this, but it does not leave a deep impression (("'trace" - sled)). A, We will come back ((to this)). | You are in six hundred... the room, whatever ((number)). What more (dal'she) took place? DoclId: 327404699 Page 43
HW 53716 a WO - 40 - XY Only that which I remember; only that which I remember, and then you judge, please, as you wish. Please. I remember, then, he talked with me _- this, this Personnel man (kadrovik), whether a case officer or a senior case officer ; what kind of questions he posed, I absolutely do not remember, and even... There was a talk, doubtless about where I had served, well... about myself, who are you, what, where did you graduate, what institute, what kind of education, language, where have you worked since graduation from the institute, there and there, ((your)) last place, there and there -- I told everything. Questions concerning the biography. so. You had a conversation, etc.; what then? And he gave me, then, he said to me, yes, he gave me several pages ((Not with certainty)), then there is one, such a sheet ((page)), one word on it: autobiography; it says, for the autobiography, in two copies, and he gave me a questionnaire (anketa), also two copies, there were some four or six pages, the deuce knows how many . It ((was)) necessary to fill out the questionnaires, all of this, and submit ((it)) to them. To my thinking, yes, I filled ((them)) out at home, yes, at home I filled ((them)) out. | The questionnaire, the autobiography, and I attached small photos of myself. They gave you two copies of the questionnaire.... Of the questionnaire and two of the autobiography. One and the other in two copies. DoclId: 327404699 Page 44
HW 53716 SCRE ss . -~ 41 - ~S What was on this page which was intended for the autobiography? Only one word: "Autobiography". What is outstanding about the questionnaire? The questionnaire (anketa) ((is)) a routine questionnaire (voprosnik). Well, the first question, well, surname, given name, patronymic, place of birth, where born, well... routine... but... the expanded questionnaire (rasshirennaya anketa), that is, I have in mind... you understand, I filled out the questionnaires, and later, when working I filled out a questionnaire again; it was an abbreviated (sokrashchennaya) questionnaire, not so large ~~ (?7six?) pages, less. A questionnaire. What size was this? How many pages were there? Four or six pages. Four or six pages. What was this questionnaire called? Questionnaire (anketa). ((That is)) all, nothing more. After the talk, after the conversation in the Personnel Department, except for the autobiography and questionnaire, what else did they ask you to do or to submit (predstavit'), or what further step had to be taken? I, then... when I had filled out the questionnaire and the autobio~ graphy.... Where did you fill out the questionnaire and the biography? DoclId: 327404699 Page 45
HW 53716 a NN C) - 42 At home, it seems, at home. At home. Can you say more exactly? No, I cannot say more exactly. You cannot say more exactly where you filled out the questionnaire? I received the questionnaire there, to my thinking, I filled it out at home; yes, at home. And they gave me on the following day, they gave me a pass, I went up and turned ((the questionnaire, etc.)) in (otdel). Or, no, I did not drop in ((at the room itself)), but this ((person)) gave me a telephone ((number)), I phoned, he came down and took my autobiography and questionnaire... it means, I called on the telephone this employee came down and took ((the questionnaire, etc.)). ( (Pauses Yes, I filled out the autobiography and questionnaire at home, I filled ((them)) out at home, because I did not have photos with me and I submitted the photo at the same time on the following, on the following, approximately, day, I phoned... went to, went to the eighth entrance, waited, this employee came down, I gave him ((the questionnaire, etc.)). He said: "Well, alright, we will phone you." Then, you submitted (predstavili) an autobiography . Two copies.... Two copies.... Two copies of the questionnaire. ... Two copies of the questionnaire.... Photos. _ DoclId: 327404699 Page 46
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 47 Ss S What kind of photos? Small photos, I did not have any others. They wanted to receive 9 x 12, a large and small ((ones)), as usual, you know, it ((was)) 4x 9 or 4x6or3x 4; to my thinking, ((it was)) 3 cm. by 4. And they asked me for one 9 x 12; I said that I have none, this is large. But then later you submitted a 9 x 12 to them. No, no, no. Later I submitted ((one)), when I already was working, it was in approximately 1955, 1956, that they asked me. I submitted a 9 x 12 about two times. Then (Dal'she)? You filled out the questionnaire, submitted ((it)), a person came down, took these questionnaires, what then? | There was nothing more. Further I was told that there will be a phone call for me, they will phone me again, I will go. When was this phone call? This all was sometime in January? It was in January, yes. In January? In January, yes. When did the phone call come (("follow" - posledoval))? I do not remember. I do not remember.
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 45 Again I talked with this ((person)) briefly; I was with this employee about 30 minutes, then I was with ROZHENKO for the third time. The third time with ROZHENKO, With this, every thing was completed, and I received a phone call, the last phone call I received from them... in March, after STALIN was buried. | After STALIN's burial they asked me to come, not to Building 12, but to Building 2. The pass was ordered for the fourth entrance straight out, for the principle, central entrance. But when, then, from January to March, what were you doing in Moscow? Nothing. I was, I was, this period of time, you understand, all January --— [ still ((had)) leave, February and this part of March before working, this ((was)), so, at the disposal of Personnel; that is, until the moment, until the appearance of the order that I was enrolled to - work in the MGB, I was, this period of time, period of time, but I do not know, from the middle of January, from what time, I was at the disposal of Navy (VMF) Personnel, of the Ministry of the Navy, but how it was here, no one explained to me. I know only one ((thing)) - that Personnel of GRU, GRU of the Ministry of the Navy, knew that it will be handled (provoditsya) that... the problem of my enrollment in the MGB is resolved; they knew that this question is decided and therefore put me at the disposal of Personnel; that is, this so useless (boi tayushcheyesya) position which is before the moment of assignment (naznacheniye). It can be two and three months or a month or a half-month or four months. How did the Personnel Department of Navy GRU find out that you were processing (("are processing" = oformlyayetes')) for work in the MGB? KALOSHIN, whom I told, first heard ((it)) from me.
HW 53716 SECRET Ne - 45 - LK When was this? In January. I told ((him)) in January. Maybe on the 10th, maybe on the 8th; I do not remember when I was there first. I told them that I was processing... the question of my, of my enrollment, of taking me to work in the Ministry for State Security is decided. Because that work to which you sent me last time in Sovetsk, at the Fourth... at the MRP of the Fourth Naval Fleet, does not suit me at all, because this work (eto rabota) (1G). And what did you do for KALOSHIN at that time, when you stated that.... I did not do anything. I said that, in all probability, as far as I understood, they will put you in the know officially somehow. This they themselves already ((had done)). And, really, no one had told me, and, really, they already had put -- I have in mind the MGB Personnel (kadry MGB) == they officially had put the GRU Personnel of the Ministry of the Navy in the know, but they quickly asked about this, "give ((us)) the personal file (lichnoye delo)", that no one had explained to ((or)) showed ((or)) told me, but GRU Personnel (kadry GRU), KALOSHIN, knew officially, KALOSHIN already knew, not from me, but GRU Personnel knew officially that the question about me is resolved in MGB Personnel (v kadrakh MGB), and they put me officially at the disp((osal))..., I became, then, not as an officer of the MRP of the Fourth Naval Fleet in Baltiysk, in Sovetsk, but ((an officer)) at the disposal of Personnel (v rasporyazheniyem kadrov), at the disposal of Personnel. . But you remember that... I again return to the old problem that obscurities arise, of course more, not from ((our)) understanding each other, but you said earlier what you are saying now, it is DoclId: 327404699 Page 49
HW 53716 true that earlier == one or two times == you said that you had filled out the questionnaire (anketa) at ROZHENKO's, etc., but there was a time (moment) when you said that they told you in the Personnel Department (otdel) of the MGB that "it ((is)) not necessary to fill out any kind of questionnaire (anketa), we have requested your personal file (lichnoye delo)." | And wholly understandably ; it may be that I ((did)) precisely ((that)) the second time, because == I am sitting and thinking, but why ((did)) I ((do so)) the second time == perhaps they gave me a questionnaire the second time.... I do not remember, do not remember. Understand me; Counterintelligence (Kontrrazvedka) does not work that way. When a person has worked in Counterintelligence and tries to explain and state that white is black and black, white, of course it is difficult for the people who have been talking with you —=— including me -- to believe that you are telling how in fact it was. When a person once has said that "it ((is)) not necessary to fill out anything, we have requested your personal file", and that is all (i konets); now, in order to find an answer, you are trying somehow to explain: "Maybe it was so the first time, but perhaps, the second time." I want to know the truth, in order that it be clear and definite -~ that you went to ROZHENKO, that you filled out a questionnaire, what you did, etc., or it was that they requested your file from the GRU and you did absolutely nothing there. Because you told ((it)) one time thus, and then two times in another way. The truth must be somewhere, because it cannot be this way. _ I am telling you the truth as it is; I was ((there)), I talked in Personnel two or three times, I filled out a questionnaire, I filled out a questionnaire; when did I fill out the questionnaire? God knows '. DoclId: 327404699 Page 50
HW 53716 SEGRET Whether they gave it to me right away or gave it to me later, or perhaps they gave it to me when I already had gone to work, a Personnel/ man (kadrovik) sitting in the Second Chief Directorate (vo Vtoroy Glavke) == ((chief --)) SAKHAROV, Nikolay Grigor'yevich -= gave it to me -=- I do not remember , I do not remember, I do not remember . Absolutely. I know I filled out two autobiographies, two questionnaires, submitted photos. But why (("for what" = k chemu)) fill out two autobiographies and two questionnaires? Uh, two copies. Why? I do not know. Here, of course, in this event.... ((Interrupts)) Well, then, where; it is in the personal file (Lichnoye delo); look: here is a personal file on him, on him, on him, but what is there; a personal file, but there is also an insert (vlozheniye) in the personal file, the special check (spetsproverka) file, which also is kept (khranit'sya) here in the personal file, but it ((can be)) taken out. It is, there is such a folder (korochka), the special check file is sewn into the folder. Probably here (Navernoye syuda). To you, of course, every mortal man knows that there is a special check file in the personal file, because without a special check they do not take you into the MGB, but it also is true that even when new employees are taken on (dazhe pri postuplenii vnov' prinimayemykh) they do not £111 out two copies of the questionnaire. heey DocId: 32404699 Page 51 oa .
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 52 _ - 48 - mo, ...And later I filled out two more copies. It may be that you could have filled out one copy later, one more after a year, perhaps another after five years, and so forth, but the Personnel Department needs only one good copy and absolutely nothing more is needed. Two copies. I married, my wife, they gave two copies again for completion on my wife (dlya zapolneniya zheny). We will be talking about this when we come to this marriage, and we will return to this questionnaire. I want you to understand what I am saying. The next question -- of which I had not wanted to remind you == ((concerns the fact)) that the questionnaire both for new employees (vnov' prinimayemyye) and for KGB employees (sotrudniki KGB) is not given to ((be taken) ) home. The biography, yes; you can write as much as you wish, even ten. - The questionnaire is not given -- and not because of distrust of a Communist or of an employee -= but only because it may be lost. This is the only reason. It may be. It all may be. But I took ((it)) home, and not ((just)) one time -- ((my)) wife also filled ((it)) out at home. When you had begun work, later; this also must not be, but the possibility is not excluded, that ((then)) you took ((it home)) «-= I do not object to this so much; but when you had come for the first time only and that they would have given ((it)) to you ((to take)) home -- this question is completely ruled out. Here is what I want to understand -- you have told me that you took ((it)) or you did not take ((it))?
HW 53716 DoclId: 327404699 Page 53 I do not remember, I do not remember. Maybe I took ((it)). It is necessary then to say: I do not remember , and I do not know. But I know that I filled out a questionnaire... and wrote an auto- biography... to my thinking, I wrote this at home, because I had, I could not give the photos. I want to remind ((you of)) one ((thing)): that if we will talk in this way we will go slowly, we will go very slowly. I cannot help you -= forgive me, please, forgive me == I cannot help you, because I answer thus as I know, what I know, but you want.... I do not at all need anyone's help.... I understand. You know your business. I need only the truth. The fact was and is that the questionnaire is not given ((to be taken)) home. You told me that you took it home. I can in no way understand this. I simply want to hear only one ((thing)) from you -- that you tell me that "I filled ((it)) out" either here or not here; if "I took ((it)) home" == ((then you)) took ((it)) home; but they do not give (Cit to be taken)) home; then you wrote it somewhere else? In that or another event, I filled it out immediately, or, after I was accepted, I filled it out at home. In that or another event. Only at home; the first questionnaire which was completed by me for the MGB ((wife filled out)) only at home.
HW 53716 A. I do not want to do it so that you, you understand, knowing exactly, I think, not knowing where you filled ((it)) out, you insist now, as far as they try to obtain from me, where was this? _- at home? - and I say that (Cit was)) at home. If we will work this way, we will not find a common language very soon. . I only want one ((thing)) =~ that you answer just as it was. If you do not know.... ((Interrupts)) I answer as I remember; the questionnaire was completec at home, . Whether it was filled out immediately or later, I do not remember this, but I filled it out at home. .. It could not have been completed at home. Well, it ((matters)) little that it could not. But I filled it out at home. This answer will satisfy no one. I cannot sit and lie to you, no, only for the sake of satisfying you. I certainly do not want you to lie to me.... (XG)... I believe that you want only the truth.... I am answering you that, yes, I completed the questionnaire, I do not know when, ((either)) immediately ((when)) they gave ((it to me)) or later, but only at home, at home. - My only reply to this can be only one.... ((Interrupts)) And later I completed ((one)), also at home, at home... At home, in that year when you entered, you could not have filled ((it)) out. DoclId: 327404699 Page 54
That, afterward ({you completed a questionnaire)), as you said, when you married, and so forth -= it goes without saying that this is possible. B. It goes without saying. It was later, when.... A. I even allow for (dopuskayu) an exception to the regulations or == if the discussion is of such a case (esli rech’ idet) == if a person is working, then sometimes such a thing ((happens)), or the possibilit ((that)) it is given to employees whom they trust. B. Understand; you were warking ((there)); now you put the dots over the "i's with such a funny question. A. It is not a funny question. 'B. It is a funny question. Funny. Well, what; you know the regulation (polozheniye) that an employee, an operational worker (operativnyy rabotnik), let us say, must not in any event take home a single document. You know in real life they take ((them))? They take ((them)). I have finished work; I ((have)) two meets (yavka) in the evening; I met the agent, but I have finished the last meet at 10 o'clock in the evening, at 9 o'clock in the evening; I am ((too)) lazy to go such a distance to put in the report (polozhit' doneseniye); I go home and ((keep the report)) in my pocket; right? ((XG - A and B speak at the same time)) A. There must be some kind of foundations for this, true? But you have not given them to me. You say: "I really (tochno) completed ((it)) at home." HW 532716 DBocld: 32404699 Page. 545