Released under the John F. Kennedy Assassination 
Records Collection Act of 1992 
(44 USC 2107 Note) 
NW 53216 6/17/17
104-10210-10030 A. _ Said you were there for quite a long tine? B. A. E. = as TILA astewfodars aut es» SO tnhat we can find a coccon Tatcuare. iio metter how much we have talzned toisy, .t is imrossible to believe that you were there, in the Laltic, etc. I told you how I was. 2 i want to understand what {s the catesr; it is fn no way underricnaable to me -- you can imagine tnat if a nen were a counterintelligeace officer, or -- at that time -- an intelligence oflicer, if he wes there, re sould remember somtaing. I told you what I did. what else could I have dons if J 623 not do that? Vat else can I tell you? I cid ::0% do anything ele there. Perhecs it would be better to say, I was not there’. : I had not been there, I would say, I never was there’. oad Why co I need this -- to get confussd here If “I was rot there", then, of course, “I" did not do anything there. I told you what I did. ‘Well, the last question for the day -- cow do you explain that serlier you Earlier, you said that you had beer on fugem Island and comewhere else. a No; I... just-a minute ... I did not say it that way. oS eka ob nee tema tate This ig,a fact; but then, you said that you vere sot there, fee? APPROVED FOR RELEASE 1999 | ty, siyt ge CM ESTORGAL RENE PRD :. et ome shea. ; ret ne
104-10210-10030 a 3 hn é i. That is nota Justifigetion. : 4 This is not the tely of an intelligence of fle. A Man can mske a ristexe; Lut you canfot cny at the Leginning that you | were there aad there end there, and Gsen wirn they ack you about it, irs) ~ "> + geome difficul$ies in answering; and teen you say that you do not know why you said it and that you were not tire. BE. Agein, in this case, they will not telieve .... ((X3; A and B speak at the same tice. )) The cquesticn about me was resolyed «hile T wes in Mossow on leave in dune Even the question of my ctudy war discuricd. i I refused to take training. Then the decision was made to sends ta the ((N.vy intellfgence)) cofus. ht that peried of time, at that iim, av sual time when the decision wes made amd it was deciued to sind we te thit point in fovetek, tre point vas in Fosteck, ara the idea wes to .end re io Berlin a) from there to Rostock. Ae To iknow cbout thet ani thes rest. My question was from this field, Lut sas not posed that way. bh. I did not get there; why? . Because the base was moved, vas moving .... 4 ((In the beginning)) ... you said that you rad been there, but then you said you had not been there and you said that you did not know why you kad said ; you had been there -- "I was not there”. B. Because, actually, it happened that I ~es directed to go to Rostock; I did pBeyc ates. 0. Mot go there; why did I not ¢o there? Because the base had been moved, end they did rot know where it was to nove " - from Rostock. ane 4 A. In life, it goes this way -- if a man was tivre ....
104-10210-10030 ~~ eee oe B. Ant Y said that I would rot ED there -- ““«hy sheulas I ¢o0 froa one city te ; another? Make a decision cn where I an to go, vrei I will ¢9 there”. A. ((Signals end of ceeting.)) I do rot want you to becous upset. ((Esd of 30 Suly tc fessicu)) . -« oan be " wa hey sete UMA Ane emcee ae | | |
104-10210-10030 ((3 August 1965 Session)) hs ({Asks for a cigarette; speaks in a very lew voice.)) You near, I want +o say a word about Scvetsn, Proimorsziy fray. You know, it is not just ry merery .... It is another thing -- pechaps I an confuse: stout the xray, but there is somthing conr-cted with “Sovetss ty the set (rrboorakty)" -- either Primorskiy Rayon or Sovetsk By the Gre. Ard why ? You know, I was thinking -- “what in itt” Semehow I have connected Covetsn vith Prhisorsitiy. The taing is that yourself? seid, ‘Hers {5 Sovetsk” .... There are many Sovetsa«s .... “Here is Sovetsk.” -- appares:it. in all proiebility, to different fete this Sovetsk from another .. this (nvetex. I have in nind the Sovetsk "by the sea (primorskiy)", in order to differentiate: it from another -- this is way, in sy memory, Sovetek i3 something connected with "primorskiy (by the sea)” ... either “Sovetsk Prizors<4y" or "Sovetsk of Primorskiy Rayon" ... well, Jovetsx by the ces. Now, another thing -- this Sovetex is a very small place; it is not even a city; there was no rayken there ... notaing. well, precisely, "Sovetsk by the sea”, in my memory cece Vell, if “Sovetsk by the sea”, what else? It could be this way ... it could be this way .... I do not remember, I do not renexber. It could be this ... "Kaliningrai Obisst, City of Sovetsk by the sea" or 2 a_i “of Primorexiy Rayon" ... I do not know. I, how ese Well, Sovetsk ty the sea... it pointed out “Sovetsk -- by the sea”. In ny memory y it is "Sovetsk, Prizorskly Keay": I myself understand: you have reproached me for ry ignorance o-- that I do not know geography, although I ersduated from an institute .... x I know very well that there is only one Prinorskly Kray -- in the Far East; there is rio Primorskiy Kray here. isi
104-10210-10030 x x I have thought about Lt -- wiy “Primorsnty ray? Tt could be that during the war teins was one of th: fronts ... “primocskly i rayon (a rayon by the cea)... “rorseoy_kray (a coastal krey)" ... ‘prinor'ye (coastal area)”. Qn the map, you yourself cee tont thers ds a Primorsk” and a "Frimor'ys" 2... i had not seen the map before this; wty did not show it to me .... “..pything indicates that thers if sometuing ... “prinorski;” coe SOVETERK, A. vhat there is ... there is no Soveisk in “alinines:d Obless which is luceted on a spit. “ike Vell, look, cne minute ... not on tre s,il, tefore you go out un tie srit. I will tell you even more -- Sovetox $4 Just a little plese ... Sovetsk ... there is ... a narrow-geuse railws; ... tub it does not go onto the srit. The narrow-gauge railway went to Piltiyss ... Sovetsk... there was a check-polot (shlagbaum) before the spit ... they checked pasees ... Sovetsk ... before coing out on the epit. A. Inesmuch as you have raised this qves.ica, I wanted to remind you that eenin you were ¥rong. PR. About what? A. When you said that there was 10 reilwo. * I intentionally listened to you ent did not interrvst. B. There is no railway; thers is a narrew-cauge track. A. I am talking about the railway from Xeliningrad to Baltiysk. B. There is absolutely no railway to Baltiysk, and there is no railway or tke spit. A. The railway was there tefore the war, during the war, and efter the war; it a was built by the Germans ... the devil knews when, and it exists to the : present dey. i - Sts. ae pet ; ape
Lk. cary Se “Me cannot co.tradict the f.ctn; ft owen net even ceptroyed when the Ge.mans fot out of there. There is ... Iam telling isa... you can Looe at the map... to Kalininzgred. You cannot get to Covetsk from Moscow turn. Aaliningred ty railway, a. You can go from Ksliningrec to covets cn nm local train, Lecause there is the narrow-geuze railway fron oovetsh Lo Vrlenoersdsn -- i. 1a the former Gerran tow of (fivants?}; tric is & reewre ares ty North Frussta. We are talking about Baltize... Tnere was ro road to Paltiy th tw, on the... tw ct . Trere wes only a highway. There was, ami it is there to tie prerent ulse; 4% was there vefore the war, during the war anj after the wer. Well, T travelled ... it is # rarrow rlane, Ido not know how you trevedied; if you did not co ty screin, it is so.ething else. Lip Oy NOs Another question -- that there is a rafilrosi; last time, you told me that you remember very well thet ... when you arrived in Naliningrad, there was no railroad ... you got thers ty hitch-hihiss. Trere is po way you can gst to Laltiysk ty railroad. Perhaps you went by car, not by rail; Lut there is a railroci. Deere Bb. You go this way -- Moscow - Aeliningrai. Railroads go in all directions from Naiiningrai, including to Baltiys«. Ko. Well, then it would have been most easy for =e to Lave transferred at the station to go to Baltiysk. SEGRE 2 Tam hed aa ee i j
104-10210-10030 i] Well, lec us g0 Lacs. You have tried to correct yourse.! ((ty)) sayinn, ‘2 vetsk by the cen, fet us say 60 -- if comic le; Lao, ali the case, a ocersaen In tht fory -- ard, ecuecially, in intellfeenece -- tosy do not atvresn Jetters to ain in tre way you said; they addrees then to the Jilitary univ ((iet., using te field 3st office nunber)). No... oven... for ... the Far Lact -- “Lovetskays Gavan', Milivery Urit euch-sni-psuch" ... although we vere sot in Covetskeva Gavan’. And, you know why? IT éo not know. Fecause it taxes the letters a few months to _2u there. why a few months? Vell, rota few months, but a lens tins, Jf one will verite to tne ocilitary unit, as -- during We TT -- (geld Pact Civics No. euct-srd-such . Zo you know how the fuvy field rectal eycten vas organized? i 35 not knew. ite < Tf you do not know, then it is nut necessary to say “It wlll take & fev months Vell, ast a few months; it will take a tong time. amd in the Far East, they wrote, “City of sovetskaya Gavan', Military Unit sucn-and-such", Ami did they also write which oblast or “ray? somes: No, simply "City of Sovetskaya Gavan’. There is only one city of Sovetsxaya Gavan'; it is a large city. ae Perhaps you ere confused. Ko, no. Sovetsk, Primorskiy ... Primorskiy ... in my memory, Sovetsk, Frimorsxly Kray -- although I understand very well that there is no kray there ... well, I... I do not know. diaid Bela! sheet Hae tee Pee
104-10210-10030 5 am y x =U A. What would you say to “There is a Sovetsk by. the cta (Sevetsx prinorskly), 2 : . . _ in Leningrad Chlast"? &. what? ‘ fe «There is a Sovetss by the sea, in ieciscrad O.last. 3.0 Na. Well, whet are you saving -- Cin Lenincered Ghinst’ 2! ; This is the Fearth Navy Fleet. .. Were you ever in the Sovetse in fenincerd Oblast? ie. Never. Ae) «6Are you sure of this? CLlast. tu . Ll 3 o rod a] et s 2 . y Le | » g 19 at ’ a bes “ . ’ e 3 c + t. bea: on 4 Do you remesber a Prinorsk fin Leninerad Obinst? Le oO. Leningrad Oblast? KO, NO» sa of pleces? Tokncow, in Leningrad Oblest ... what : Eefore the war ... Sestroretsk, Vertys>kino ... this is near Leningrad. , eo There is a Lisiy hos ... a. Lysyy or Lisiy? 2. Listy; Lisify Nos ... a place heavily infested with mosquitoes. A. Are you sure that you never vere in a Sovetsk in Leningrad Oblast? _B. I never was. fat adie ‘A. In a Prinorsk in Leningrad Oblast? B. No, no, no, no. ft cn tes Sy +) at se
104-10210-10030 ree" - ia . a Very well; we will return to this question in tine, “ais does not explain what you have been trying tu czplain to me. Shere is no sovetsa« in tise vit.e you are salaine Acuue. nbd oro cne ever wrote “Sovetes prinorsain . ‘ith the indication that ¢hic os Lovetes, Folinorsniy Xray, Primorsaiy Rayon here was io Primorshiy foyon in selfainiveed Golast, cod “aliningrad Colast WAS LOt called Primorskiy Kray ((or ‘a ovaseel xray’ )). fQ1 of this, of course, forces ms to thing that your knowledge is too livtle for one ro has worked ard cervea there, T have told you now it was. The last time, I told you to thine aLout tunis question; I think you bev: thought very vell and now you em tryine: to dasist upon thie or to find core sort of justificatior. ho; I an tryirg only to prove to you tinal 2 «as thers. Eat this does not prove anyt ing; and sour wands -- "Zowas, Twos’ -- ne proof, do not say anytninc:. -- IT cannot civ: trtor. well, let us go tack a little. if one is to telieve whet yea said estou. t+ last date, the date of your entry into the organs of the MVD, in Merce: 1953 .... Yes. Every officer knows exactly tre date on which he entered, because it is necessary to know it in many cases; but -- esthough you talk about your poor mensry -- could you recall the exact date on which you were accepted for work? Dtsch beatae olen +” Because this is of great and important sisnificance for promotion, for rank, for longevity, etc., etc.; every officer knows this. I would like for you to recall it; you should know on what date you vere accepted. ae “SECRET : i
104-10210-10030 3 x Ye toe he 5. A. I do rot renenver. In the middle of March. PESIYA was in power and in the time iruediately after nin; ifrectorates that existed at. that tine inctne LD. o “Let us talk a little about the structure ond organizetion of the MVD when nase for me the ((Peuse.)) The First Directcrate, Eseond Virrctovate ... the First Chiel 2... whe Cecond Chief .... well, what did the First Chie? Girectarat? do? ‘((Pause.}) Intelligence. The Second Chief Directorate? Counterintelligence . let.us pause on this -- are you sure? About what? Tnet the First Chief Directcratc «as Litelligence, and the FY ; Sure. fee erd Crlef There was ont change between 143 w.til Jamuary 1964 ({probebly ceant “295k")), after EERYYA, when KRUGLOV was Minister of the MVD... after EERIYA, For a short period of tine, the First Chief Directorate was called th: Second, the Second wes calied the Firct. Tnis was the one change -- for a short tire. First of all, your information is not correct. If the First vas called the Second, ani the Second, the First, why vas this done? I do not know why it was done. It was announced to ali employees, and it was explained why such a change hed taken place. Os A abate « avlibas aoe 2 3
104-10210-10030 i “art A. Ido not remezber any such explanaticns. Vay? I tell you -- for a short periad of tires, cle Lecond Directorate was the First, and the Firet was the Second, Well, that is right. But this was not under EERTYA; it wes umler KRUGLOV. Taat is not rignt. This is another one of those confirzations thit it is nighly unlixely that you worked witha the MVD. Aman who has worked there knows exactly when the change vas made. You are mistaken by a mile ((“ilomster”)). Tais was urder KRUGICV .... There Was SOTAtHING cece What other directorates? Tne Third Directorate. what did the Taird ve ao? Military cousterintelligence. Then, the Fourth Directorate .... - What did it do? The intelligentsia. Be more precise -= the one word, “intelligentsia” ? covers a lot of ground. Work among writers, artists eee all counterintelligence work .... If we take counterintelligence work as a whole ... work against foreigners .... ameter z No, no; we are talking about the Fourth Directorate, nothing else. The work among the intelligentsia of all types, excluding, of course, ((those : H in)) industry; work against nationalists (XG). The Fourth Department -- why do I remember the Fourth? .
104-10210-10030 t ste she fle Lecause employee ZVEZDENELYV, of the Fir.c Cenartcent, when I cane on cuty in March 1953 ... ne left 8::2 worked .... ‘And the next directorate? ime Filth Directorate. industry, all industry. wrat else was the Fifth Directorate called? “This vas before my time. The next directorate? The Sixth; transpertation. Tas next? Tie Seventh. What did it doz ? Checking; installations -- the investigative apparatus, and surveillance of Soviet citizens. ana the next directorate? Te Eighth. What did it do?. . ; Coding and decoding. Che next? The. ttinth; the Guards Directorate. “the next? Tre Tenth: the Noembta Blicersecaie.
104-10210-10030 ve «6 Dhe next? »» That is all of the directorates, cxespt for the Snectal Depertrents ve. ch yes, the Investigations Tevertrent .... 3+ «rt What else? The Cpecial Depertrents. ay rs i What cpecial Deparicents do you Huon? ie The First Special Lepartment. 4A. What did it do? b. The First Special Department -- 1 tisink it is what is row called the Reconis- Archives Departzent - (Vehetno-arzhicnyy otdol) -- YAO. ae The Records-srchives Departmat? &. At arveent. As What did the First Srecial Denertment do tefors? EZ. The same -- archives, recorms,. T an telling you as I resecler it. I am afraid here .... Maybe the First Special Department did sometning else; I do not remember. foe Next? B. The Second Special Departrent. R. What did it do? os oo weg B. This is awiio intercept -- "Marusya”, “Nadyusha". __ og. a er A. ‘The next? B. The Third Special Department ard the Fourth Special Department. fhe Tnird, I know, is where the documents were made -- cover documents. gee -
re A. fie B. The Fitth, I do sot remember. Tue Sixth Special Department -- cesluntration of correspendence.: Well, whet cther Cepartments? Yoe Komescant Department. Ch, yes, the Administrative-Cupply beparicent, ficzg; the Medical Denavtrent was port of it. whit other departments and directorates? The Xomesdant ... yeS .... Yes, the department -- I will tell you now ... what was it called? Department "K” -- this department nandled counterintelligence in atonic industry ard at all enterprises connected with uranium mining;. wnat other devertrents? ((Fsuse.)) That is all; I do not rerecier more. We are talking about the time when tit 1D already hed been orgentesd, after 164] TALUG's death. Yes, yes, yes. Vell, let us rereat -- what did the First Special Department do? I think ... I do not insist ... to my thinking, thet was “Records”, because now it is called the Fecorés-Archives Dervartment. What was the First Special Denartrent called under the MOB, before tke death of STALIN? I do not know, I do not know, I do not know. Department "A"? - . No ... I do not renenber. Look; why do I say Department “A"? Because -- look; you fill out requests for checks or agents, and there vere old requests, where it was written, “Department ‘A'", with a red stripe across ‘eee, a t t ‘ i
104-10210-10030 a ry ‘Aw And the Second Special Department -- what was if called? HB. That {6 what 44 was called -- the Ceceni .melel vepartoent. Well, in the MGB. ts ‘ 2, I @o not kncw this; I do not knov. “L. Ido not know. Te 7 wen F ourth? Ido not know, I do not anew. The Fifth? BE. TI also do not know. - Ne Bae Sixth? =, Ido not know, I do not anoy. ct rr vs a * £5 whee a oo Sana nt - ae nee = ¥ ee mn. Well, what other directorates were th ¥ B. There were no other directorates. iF ° = fi. And to what did GUILAG belong at thet ti RB. (21 understand you7) The Convoy Troops (Konvoymyye Voyska); but when I came in there was none. GUL?G -- Chief Directorate of Camps. I do not know, There was none. I do rot know. he. Ami what happened to the Forder Troops? oe a 4 4 = B. Ah ... That is right -- the Border Troops! exactly: For a period of tim, they were in the MVD. cites. a e A. We are talking now of that period, and it is not important where they were. B. Both of them ... Coie® Directorate ....
104-10210-10030 t A. What happened to the Internal Troops? Be ({Lons pause.)) I have not heard about them since 1393. A. Well, vhere were they in 1°53? E. well, they were in the MOD system, tut i do not k:.cw where, A. “hat -- you have not heard about ther since 16927 The, and their cecorations were written up in th: newspapers. B. Well, Ido not snow. When I wes working, there were ron: of these .... ‘ie How is it you do not knew? They exist even row. They write about them openly in the newsparers. EZ. het in the NGB, not in the HGR. I cdo not know ... in the SAD, tat rot in the HOE. A. Well, where were they in 19537 wnat happened to them? B. Ido not insist upon this, but I think, I think that GULAG and the Ccnvoy Troops were given over to the IVD efter tis \GS -- te ny thinking, tut I az sot sure. A. But we are talking about 1953; everyting in the MVD was lumped tcegstner. There was no place to which to transfer them there was no KGB as vet. _ B. Ido not know, I do not know; I do not remeber; I do not know. A. Yhat happened to the Prisons Dire svorate (Tyureanoye Upravleniye), where your friend, Amayak ((KOBULOV)), was Chiez? MiB ate cab,
104-10210-10030 a ' Br. 0 ((Pauce.j) I do not knw. There wee no Priecons Directorave luring wy time. ((Pauce.)) You see hov .e nen feayas was Cuter -- well, when was this? ~, * If Amayex in January i552, #iso ves wernirg in GUI? It means it was in LY... rayte in MG, IGE, 14.5, 1Gk5. i.e For your informaticn, Aceyak war lnier of the Prisons Directorsts up to tne Sice KIXIYA was arrestei. If you worked there, you must boos. . %I know that ne was arrested ... “tt . Evervene knows that ne was the Chie’ of the Prisons Directorate. Every dog knows thet; there «ir ro reared about 4b. E. J do nct know. *. &ng it is nonsenss: B. Ho, T was not proving ... I eizply was seying that I had seen hin. &. Well, do you remexber any other directorates? B. Ido not know. A. What happened to GUSZOSDOR? Do you knew what GUSHOSDOR is? ao B.. I have heard of GUSSOSDOR, but it was not there in ry tien. A. If it was not there in your tire, where is it now? : B. ((Long pause.)) I do not ena, I do rot know. In the system of ... T know thet in the Militie system ... right now ....
104-10210-10030 A. fh. BR. A. B. B. Ae B. A. We will telex about the Militia as the reszt question. Where was the Militia wren you etortid worcing in the D7 (2iu was combined?) it was in the fvu. ‘Whe 0B vas cecbined. Vosre wasp the Militia? Waere was the Chief Directorate of Militia iccated at trat tine? ({Long pause.)) I do not know exactly; I do act kuow, I do not mow. I only mow that there ts a hue Luflding on the street where the telegraph office is. Well, everyone knows that -- it is in the telephone directory; I am ask’ ng where it was in 1953. - I do nct know, I do not know. ((fauce.)) Well, you worked thern, vben Gid the Militia move to Ofnerev Jureet? , It ves there, on Coarev, in 1552, For your information, no. bo you remember any cther directorates there? No. Must I always remind you? I do not know; I told you what I “now. This again, shows that your knovledge is too scanty. I cannot help you here; I aa telling you what I know. ((Pause.)) There is only one thirg I have not yet mentioned: in 1953, there was -- during BERIVA's time -- there was the Inspectorate (Inspektsiya). Well, we will write "Inspectiorate” -- there was such a thing. a 4 : 4
104-10210-10030 » ’ ‘i. Whet happened to PATMIMAN? LL. He wes arrested. 4. Is he slive, cr was he executed? Vell, ne is alive, alive. ee . Te F > else wes there? , b. Ido not knuw any more. A. What happened to the Directorate of the Safereeping of State Treasures; uncer - what number was it, and what did it 207 5. Ido not know, I do not know. A. Was there a Secretariat? Dm. Yes, there was the Secretazrtat. A. Who was the Chief of the Cecretarist? Me fm. Ido not know. ; 4. During EEHIYA's tine? E. Ido not know, I do not tow. 4. Befcre BERTYA? B. TI also do not know. ; ; A. After BERIYA? B. ((Pause.)) I know only DOBROKHOTOV. “" What year was it e- 1955, 1954? , ae ioe gee ase, a There was DORROKSOTOV. . 4 4 A. Was there also a Party Comittee? ; B. This is not a directorate. bes : a. Put tie alse is in the MVD: risht!
104-10210-10030 tn tt ite A. Ae] No, 10; I do not resenter. If you will let re, I will tegin fron this eid, Troi tne most rsotnt years. Approximately from 142 -- VLACHN WD. Froa 1959 to 3952 -- MARFUNIN. Shere were two men tefore MARFUNIN, To know: SENGEYSV, YA2TerY, That is all. In what years they were there, I do not anow. wpmwomee There were two men tefore 1959 -- YANUSNY In 1059 ~- M.RFUND, and in 1642 -- VIACTEMO. MASFUNTH? ’ MARFUNTI; he formerly was the Deputy Chief of the tcurtn Directorate. But was there a Korzomol Comittee’ There was a Komsenol Committee. “no were the Secretaries? I do not cemember, I do not know. what other directorates ware there? I do not know. Wno was Chief of the First Chief BDirsctorate nen you entered? I do not know, I do not know; I do not remember. Weil, whom do you remember to have teen a Crief of the First Cnief Directorate? SAKHAROVSKIY, when he became ((Chie1)). ' And when did he become Chief? _ I do not know, Ido not know; I have no idea (XG); he was not in in 1953, but ‘who was, I do not mow. Who was his Deputy at that time when he was Chief? Pore ys Gy tee
104-10210-10030 RB. ((Long pauze.}) I rermenter ons nace for those years; 1 must have been KORUTKOVY cen FEUDOSEYEY was a Deputy, until the srre¢st of RiXIYA. t } ,é£. For your infcmmation .... You know e-cotly that SAMHAROVSKIY was not Chief at that tine. “B. T tell you ther I do not remember ween ne wes; Ido not enow. I told you thst I co not Know who was the Chief of the First Directorate in 1953. A. Neitner FIOCLCSYEV nor KORCTKOV wer Deputies at that tire. S.  FPEDCSEYSY -- tefore the arrest of BURTY.. -- vas the Deputy Chief of the First Directorate. A. He was not -- he was there, but he was not the Deputy. Parther, who was the Chief of the Second Chief? Directorete? Ae ho wes his Deputy? EB. SMULNYAHOV, CRIBANOV, LYALI. he Tire Chief cof the Third parectorute? E. Ido not resenber. I renember, from GUSKOV's time; GUSAOV became ... when? Later, later; who the chief was, I do not know, I do not remember. A. The Fourth Directorate? B. I also do not know who was the Chief; I do rot know. A, The Fifth Directorate? 'B. I also do not know. AA awed. A. The Sixth Directorate. ‘ B. I know that MIL'SHTEIN was Chief of the Sixth before the arrest of BERIYA. 1 . A. A real Russian name! i ake oe re,
104-10210-10030 He is a dew. Tae Seventh Directorate? Aroand 1954, it was DOLEYNTA, DOWENiN. Well, who was, when you cane to work? I do not renender, I do not remember. When I came to work .... Pleace understand me .... Huw could I be interested at that tins? I vas a new employee; I was introduced to new work..... I could not figure it out. Well, if you had been there only one yerr, I would not ask; tut insist you worksed there for ]l years .... You do not have to study these things -- it cones by itsel?; you Look through Gocusets, atid even ff you duo net haow you nevecthelens would Tir] ov You worked there, and you kiow hew many chenges took place there. “no was t I do not know, J do net know, i 2o net Know. The Ninth? After BERIYA's death, USTINOV. After BERIYA's death or his arrest? After the arrest, after BERIYA's arrest -- USTINOV. The Tenth? Kremlin Commandant Lt. Gen. VEDUNIK. When did he tecome ((Chief))? I do not know. Are you sure it vas the Tenth Directorate? CEARER because you
104-10210-10030 B. It seers, the Tenth. iater, not toc long ago ... a few years, it com: under the Ninth Directorzte -- this horendant virectornts. s A. It vas never the Tent. B. The Tenth; it was the Tenth; mayte, cf ccurse, somewhat leter than 1953, but I remember this directcrat+. A. Who was Chief of Investigations? ‘ %. Ido not remember; I do not know. A. ‘Who was Chief of the First Special Depurtment? B. I do not know. A. Of the Second? B. Before EERTYA's arrest, KARAZEY. A. Then? B. Then, ZABOLOTHYY. B. And rost recently, ZARANCHELNO fi. Of the Third? B. At one time, it was Lt Gen EFL'CHENXO. A. In 1953? B. I do not know, I do not know. i A. Of the Fourth? . oe B. I de pot know. j 4 A. The Fifth? i i B. I do not know. 5 j 2 3 r A. The Sixth? . OS . a
104-10210-10030 . due ae A. From the end of 1953, SHOHIMOCHIMHIN; from t:.2 end of 1963. ind vhen you came in? I do net remember, I do not know. Most recently, SUCHIIOCHIKHIN. Where did he come from? ae ‘ ' 5 o 0 te a ct se “3 ° ry «t * t ? t &, He was in the Second Thief Directorate in 1G: organization. Who was head of the Cecretariet? “I do not remember, I do not know. You said RAYMDUN was Chief of the Insj-ctorats. RAYAIMAN. Who was Chief of Nnozu? I do not remember, T do not rerezver. Chief of the Yomandant Department? I think it — eee BROVN In, Col EROVITL. Departrent 'K'? It was General ... it was Colere: IVANOV, IVANCY. Later, he becasse a major general. Who was Chief of GULAG? I do not know, I do not know. “Who was Chie? of the Border Troops? MASLEINTIKOV. What happened to MASLENNIKOV? He. shot himself. And then who beceme Chief? —_ Boos _— te “whet a” i 4 a 4 é 3
104-10210-10030 “= EB. TI cannot cay for sure, tut after MOLUIASY, Lt was CIPS sOV. Ae “ho was the Chief of the Intenmnel Troops? E. Ido not mew, #0 The Chief of the Prisons Directorate? EB. Ido not tnow, I do not kntw. A. GUSHOSDOR? B. I do not knew, I do not know. he “ao was the Chief of the Militia? B. I do not know, I do not remenber. i. You sti cannot say who was the Chief of the Secretariat? &. Ho, ne. 4A. When @42 DOBROXHOTOV become ((Chief))? EB. I think, in 1954, at the Leginning of 1455. A. Shere did he come fren? EB. From the cc (( CC CPsU)). ; &. Did he cone directly frox tne CC? Ez fT heard that he had worked in the CC. A. Well, when did he work there? f ve B. Before coming to the organs ((of State Security)). A. Of course, he vas vorking before the organs. But if he came to be head of the Secrctariat in 1954 or 1955, where was he before that? B. In the CC. ee tra t ot. pis eit. J Pete Pp ce mae gee TS
104-10210-10030 we Well, that 13 not correct. ((Pause.)) You nave nezed the Secretary of the Feriy Comittee for re. Do you not remerber the Secretery of the iomnomol Committee? - I do net remember. Ww ce Who was chief of the Medical Department? Mag Gen Med Gerw BOVIKOV, ROVINOV. tet . Trend? E. I think, then and up to now, KHITIOVG, reTThovo, A. Was was ehfef of the Trensrortation Livectorate, Department? =. Up to the arrest of BERTYA it was MIL'CHPZYN. A. Tam talking about the Transportation Derartnent of the Khozu. it On, Ido not know this; i do not know, I do not kncw. into what departments was “hoz divided? Pr. IT dado not know o not know; cannot ... know the F ert Yr, Te tok 3 ida tk 3; XI t I t the Finance Departrent, the Medical Devartment .... I do not know. A. ‘who was Chie? of the Judicial Fureau under the Minister at that time? 5. I do not know. a. Did you ever hear of it? B. Ido not renecber. A. Think of some other department. ((Pause.)) ‘sho was Chief of the Special Court (Osctcye Soveshchantye )? . free tatile. { B. I do not knov. 4 A. What did they do with Special Bureau No. 1 (("Spetsbyuro” -- Executive Action)) in 1953? oe Pt
104-10210-10030 oe eee erie wormeesen edie abe we J ao mtt enow wnat the “Srecial vuretar Ce. Pid you never hear of 1t7 S;4ciel Eureau No. 1? No, Itc vot know it. wnat happened to the Search (Rezveshoye)} Lireatorate? not krow, Ido rot kuew. evasre yo. can reinemcer Comes ot, vy rt & * 3 7 + ’ , 3 ct ia ad z Co _ "s o a er G ~ ct o Ge . No, L toils voc: what I know. Mell, if er are to believe you, tim Pirrt Coectal Department har.cled arenives, ete.3 where was it lceated? be Qo 4 uses to have to co to the First Sreeial lepartmen., cn “irov Surset ... tub a cussk cf the records. here are cny files or coupremising miteriais on someon* or oth ina it still is en nxirov Street. “here on Hirov Etreet? At the very teginning of Kirov Street, if you go from Dzherzhinskiy Squarc on Nirov Street, on the left sic) of the street on which Buliding lio. 2 is. well, please tell me, if you knew -- where was the First Bpecial Department located? Give me an answer; if you do not. know, say so. I told you vhat I know. It is not entirely right. How -- not entirely right? }
104-10210-10030 Tile in where the cheenes were mile cr evtcvones. Ga Sirev ctreet, thorouta the Pires Cre rls) bow, the exit Piles were at Entrwnes lo, F i case is teing exaztined; weil, 2c us tay y Yes. eo. whom you ave Suprused to creck on whether materiais on him -- be wes Lorn in Mescew; he went ebroad several times on bustress, but an ordinary Soviet government employes Where would you check him cut: You have to find out all ths Well, on Mirov Street, you request a chach viell, I savy -- he was torn tn tie Coviet U ~ft Tia All of the checks and indices in the Archives with the excertion of those cn the avents, checked in the basement of Euiléing No. 2 ¢ And where else could a check be made In the Militia. Why in the Militia? For what? I do not know. Sy frets with whe Wiis? vied oa yayoust hav retidincs 15 votn PGP, in the basement. seen there are any compromising * lived in the Soviet Union; he is not e KGB enployee, Fusco; he went abroad. a, ain were made on Kirov Street, ving 2 red tand, waich were es, + Pio a u! rn rent we Ue athens oy ates wetaade dba: Aecidaennoe naret 4 3 i 4
104-10210-10030 + ee. Ae A. ~ Well, how could you work, to checs ieccie, if you did not know wnere the “ ry foehives on the convicte were I €o not know. Iovill tell you csly that, until Lif SEeSHSe G@ifferent checks, tuat -- Oo8 " i 1553, fl moss recescly Tours + a] Ine he ; cer ..e Well ... 9 cheew ti. the AVD and the UAD of the TGR. 3, Witn To came in, tuere were co many te cub onky one check. rosea the First Special Cepartment of On one eneet, if you want to, you cer writs out two at one time; cone to che , » , First Special Departzent a:.3 to ths An3 the second check, on epents. Earlier, there had been zany checks, nm the ao} Because when you look threu: £ checks there were .... Flease -- let us not mane thincs ur; 487; this is not the vay it was ir nd who went abroad several times, = inportart to which countrien -- tne Sveden; anywhere -- end you hsd te I wrote out a check, one copy, to the Pi ae wt de Sirferent checks; any. a Piles on agents -- God knows what kind “hat you are saying Wes co, up to 243, for your information. Le? ohecks, rarcicularly, in the wore doing only checks, and co forth. s resident, who «as torn in Mosca, s nov te a ies ' a <f ; a o a b o «t o [a] + a t i ‘e a cr we » ye te United Stetes, England, cr Austria, Germeny, eheck nim, check him cut. First Special Department, and to the Records-Archives Department; this is one check, one sheet. Tne second ((xind of check)) is in the agent network. You yourself do not carry this check; you give it to the secretary, and for the agents .... The second, for the agents; well, further? That is all. You can make a check like this, also -- we checked in another way; we called the Seveoth Directorate .... XUTSYEV er DSYEV ... they tal 23 ah ahh arte a ns he
3 & i ee, . A. B. Well, you can phone the Address lurtesn, if you do not knud the sddress, but know the surnase, first race end piteuymle ant the year of birth .... Well, I ao not want to go into cuch cetrii. Let uc ssy that you nnow the adivess, you “how the day of Lirtn, Then I write out the checz. lo cennot understand in any «cy -- Ga yen nok venn ta cay, op jo you inleed not xncow the elmplest things; you ceomo: tven chetk tre most simple perseoa sjive. I tul3d you how I did it. t just cannot be the vay you told me, crd it never was, there in an fet entirely different procedure. The one thing you said was about the First Opectlal Department, and you mixed up even that. fhe vay you explained it, a man who cces not know avout it would not under- stend a thing .... ((Pause.)) I will give you ancther proulen -- to check Mr. UMITH who works tn the American Bxbessy; he recefved a visa and ercived to vase up the » permanent position cf Firct, Zeront, cor Taird Secratary or whatever you wish. Now, check him out. I write out a check to the WAO -- that ts one; and I write out a second, because perhaps he had been in tie Soviet Union sarlier and had worked here; ard the second, I write to the POU ({Fsrioye Glavnoye Upravlaniye, the First Chief Directorate)). Well, what is in the Pou? It is called the Operational Records Department; the First Chile? Directorate . has its own archives. Well, what do you get from there? Perhaps there is some data on him in the Archives, in the records of the . First Chief Directorate. Soh
104-10210-10030 he. Wheat kind of cata is there? B. hell, terhaps he wes put undes curveiliauze comewitre, or mayie hfe nace is in some files. ae Well, in 19592, you were working on cheesin«; you worked with che Tiles mestof the time, etc.; ‘where vere the archives of the POU at thet tine -- Jet us czy in 1953, 19542 om, NC u. I ceunot sey for sure -- in 153 to: Archives were meter the Lahibitica; they had a cuilding there neor toe Exaititfon, Tater -- I cannot aay which year fos surt: in 1055 ... they were at Kisel'ryy Street (perculok); and, monk vecently, on fisel'ayy Street in the seme Lufliing as the HWicher Ushool. ad fe Well, who was the cuflef of this de actarne Zz. Ido not knov, I do not knew. ' ; From what tine, I do not mnow -- tia echint was ZATPISY. f. Continue further, you checked him in tie First Special Departzent enl the PGU; what next? B. That is the entire check. A. Please -- I do not want to give you € lecture avout checking; if you know, tell me. If you do not know, do not say anything. B. I told you what I knew. Well, alright -- you ask me, and I arswer what I know. A. We will go tack a little -- when BERIYA took over the Ministry of Internal Affairs ani the MGB and. the KCB were combined, what were the First end OS srg gt Second Chief Directorates? B. I do not know what they were. . There was and existed, before the First Chief Directorate, the Committee for. Information; I know that FEDOTOY was Chief of the Committee for Information. A. Well, he never was Chief. Se Sis “eae TRL, veh eect Moe as
104-10210-10030 cree beam dBhneal Rin . » tet i it ’ the .&B He worked in the Cormttee for Toroiuttion, but in what position...? | : fou do not know exactiy whet the Pivst «ul second Chief Directorates were : lefore the death of SPALIN? ¥ i 1 do not know, I do not know. You do not have any idea; have pot never Loach ... Y know there was a Second Directorats, tut, before the denth of OTALT., in 1950, 1951, 1952, it had descrtmenes: de, c-I, 2-7h, 2-A, 2-B, 2-Ye, fe 2 } or) ’ eatemmeeeieetena penne nee ane to oases i have beanl that. Later, FT would Like to -- I vane to ane sou about this, later ... lv vart to know from where you know tiis. yuomaii invw mbout what Tosa asking you -- Ciier Directorates before the death cf SVALINN? ae en tan pe es cpee nena near arte eeneene eee Vell, BEATYA tcck power. If you know about 2-1, 2-2, afc. .... No, I simply heard that there were suc cdevartments -- 2-2 .... I am talking ctout what was Just tefore the death of SIALIN. I do not know, I do not know. I can say that it is inpossivls for m2 to telileve that you worked for the MVD in 1653, 1954, because you cannot exnInin to me the simplest thirgs which one ran into every day. . j I told you what I now, ard how I knew it. 7 Of course, if you take a man -- for example, me -- who worked there in 1953, 1954, or o who already had worked there for ten years and who had exrerienced all of the reorganizations, etc. .. , . 2 RN ne
104-10210-10030 } ee ite bee vv . roy What? You alco worked there for 10-1) seern Well, since 1953. well, I em asecing alout i493. I tele you what IT remember, wat Ioana. But, «nen I ack you sen: yuestisas, T de not Celve so deeply as you should o rican D+ ertirent. know if you were a case cfficer in the“. Cne could put a thousand questions, tnt l am cinnly touching the nigh spots. I an replying just the way 7 .°> -::4r. Well, what you have said -- 2. . 2. there is a percentere of truth in it -- dots not confirm that you were . csal mmployse sho was wornire there. ((Pouss; A signals the cuarcés ani asks fi: )) Do you want coffee or som|ething else? Thank you. Do you drink it black? Black. x Of course, if we are going to continue like this, it will taxe us a very long time. I do not think that you will te very hepgy, if I begin to ask every question in detail; ani, you answer "I do not know” or “YF do not remember", of course, this will confirm the more that you were not there. - I want all the talk to lead to the following, when I remind you to think over one question or another -- I seriously want you yourself to come to sume conclusion and begin to speak about the way it really was. How strangely you put it: I am rot putting it strangely. Iam a very patient and calm person in this respect and, of course, when a person does rot know what he is talking about or knows only the superficialities wk we Bammer aentnves shania beow -- T do rot heve any particular desire te eRpere aa oH & arene oo 3 a Telcos easte ede
104-10210-10030 | A. delve cetper inic these questions, Lrcsu+ your e:.cwers do not give proof, since vou co rot know the AEC’ s. Even 4£ you did not work thers, ((rou oLcebb ano’ that)) then all of thes enmpicvees of the First anil second Chic! lire turetes - of course, after STALL! died -- vere happy with what had been case «iv toast time .ith the Firer emt Second Chie? Directirates -- you wusersiccd: this it a cuection that evecsyone knows about. I do mot know this. e year, for a whole year. 0 ba cP Ae " a w After trat, there was discussicn of it for an ex how, wiat ... what haprened? I do s.ct know. You mentioned once that IGNAL'YSV Rad been Minfster .... Yes, ves. Well, let us begin with IGNAR'YsV -- who were his dsputies? well, I was not working then; I fo not know why were Kis deputies 2... Well, thin, listen -- you worsed there il years alver IONABTYEY, He left, and BERTYA ceme an, ace you bsyan to “ork. Ce ws Yes. Of ccurse, you resd the papers -- there were orders, instructions, discussions; this man was imprisoned, that man was fired, and so on and so on. I am telling you absolutely honestly wrat I renmerber and how I remember it. Maybe if ... maybe I could remember socething else, something more ... but I do not know now what more to tell you. ((Guard brings coffee.)) You know that after BERIYA took power, as usual, reetings were held in each directorate, department, and they criticized IGNAT‘YEV anc his Deputies, etc.; they were called all kinds of nares. i
104-10210-10030 tris was logical, and it was so. These are things that you siould kncv; You cannot even tell about thes: sinple things -- what it was, and vnet kind of explanation was given. T en not asking you why tety removed fOl/ 1°YnV; this «as not, so to say, our or your businces. “Mell, T heard -- there was CYUMIN, (Gi Ti2E; Lu. J do not ciew, Ida not know, ta “. Did they also execute GSLILM? EB. Yes. A. Dia they aleo shoct BYUMIN? B. He was arrested, not with EERIYA's croun -- he was errested befcre. A. They shot him, also? A. Well, who else? B. Yeo. | GOGLIDZE never was Deputy Minicter. ; i B. He was in the Third Directcrate. 1 I heard there was such a person -- DINNAVA; he ves a Minister of tr: MGB in * ‘ oy } Belorussia; at one tint he had worked in Moscow. | Whetner he was there in IGWT'YSV's tine, I do net mow. ? Tut the most vowerful man, of course, was Lt Gen VLASIK. | ‘ | A. Why VLASIX? B. The Guards Directorate. A. Why VLASIK, here? seine as Ae { i : Well, you are asking me; I am answering, telling you what names I heard. ; 4 > i A. We are talking about IGNAT'YEV aml his deptities; ‘VLASIK never was a Deputy. B. He was not a Deputy, but he was Chief of the Guards (Okhrana). A. Whet did they do with him? BEF eee a Ltunntman/andatepapven beeseend aera
104-10210-10030 i (Uo ‘ngver. )) Ae TOINAVA, what uerpened Lo nin: RP. Ido not remester, I do not rementer. | | | | | | he “nat heppened to VLASIN? Sb. He wee removed right after tre death of OVALING ( fe Please, if you do not know, 29 rot niche up sorething. RB. JI oa telling you wnat I hean:. A. well, who else? BR. ((Leng pauge.)) No azswer. A. Did you ever hear of the GRU 15b4 B. Yes, in the old files, there is vu thih’. ee whst dees that mean? -. Host likely tf was what you m.ve in mind -- the Firet and Second Directorates ... work egainst foreigners. i. Who was the cafef of vgs CRU ((MGE)}?2 i. I do not knew. nm. Can you not explain what the S5U is? Ff. I do not know; it was tefore ny tice. : fk. What -- you cannot explain to m? ‘ ods _, This took place right at that time ... why was the First Directorate called the Cy vase Second Directorate; and the Second, the First? ; F BE. This was a very short period of tice .... ; i ((XG; A and B speak at the same tire.)) is | oe a ; A. ..- Not correct; you are mistaken. | j i
104-10210-10030 s ry This its another cenfirmation tuat you vere nov worning there at that ties. BF. ((ho reply. )) A. Let us begin with the follceing. B. Yes. a. BEARIYA was arrested; all of his lieutenants were acrested. Who became Minister? 1. Are you sure of that? L.  KRUGIOV. :. What haroened to hin? BL DG NaUGLoOV? He again went to the “VD... then, he ves removed ss Minister; and, lster, I heerd that he was not working anywhere and even Lad been kicked out of the Party. &. Well, why did they throw hiz cut? ed. - Ido not know; I have no tiea. A. Well, there was a speciel letter from the CC CPOU when KRUGLOV was relieved; this letter was for the inforzmstion of Cormunists and emplorees of the MVD | , and the KGB; did you hear about it? Bb. Ko; I do not remember this letter; no. carmen | te Ae A. When KRUGLOV wes Minister, who were his Deputies? E. I also do not know. SD ell Dada ante Lien A. Well, it is very difficult to believe tist you <~orked there, when you do rot remenber the Deputies. Lepr ——
104-10210-10030  siedasnsieniansenrneemeasnetinaguinnnin | ssiamesimaai af ° . ; - va = z I do not remember. ‘f. Think sbout it. m. ({Long pause.)) I thing SuROY wes «2 Taputy. 4. You could know more exactly: CnNUV ... who clse? =. (Gong pause.)) J meant the nace, ROMASHNCY. fA. What? i. Who was ROMASILZOV? hE. Ne was e deputy to KRUGLOV. Ae ROMASHTXOV? hb. Yee. How Jonz was he there? x. Well, during KRUSLOY's tine. oe Vell, how long was KEUGLOV Minieter? After EXRIYA's arrest, how long was he Minister? bE. About a y. ar. ve Well, when was BENIYA arrested? EL In dune 1953, the 27th ... no, he ((was arrested)) on the 26th .... A. ((In English)) OK; well, the 26th, 27th. KRUGIOY became the Minister. Yer. Boe how long? oa B. To the end of 1954, when SEROV became Chairman of the Committee ((for Bsate 3 Security)). 3 i A, Well, when was the Committee organized? B. At the end of 1954, at the end of 1954, or at the beginning of 1955. Pp
104-10210-10030 - 39 - he FT cannot eceent es valid coin... pouiviet prow trees simple things, such : ' 28 Sen the 153 wes a. FL o] do now rerenuer. I em telling you the way Fo recember it. New realiv, would I nide comething from yuu aro meke comt .eee? te IG take such a uistake -- ty an entire yris -- £2 ntunta; right? Irn not usting when the Fifta Ceotlion of tre Cevmnth L+coremeny fn the : Caventh Directorate wes organigeu: Dofo ct acx a gucveticn like that. be T¢o not know that at all. ace a You wersed there, and yet you say tint yuu Jo not remer oe: chen 4GB vas organized)?.... Ee. ose. In 1554, at the end of 1554, the beginning of 1995 .... 355)}) 18 not correct, vou know. He I Go rot remexber. If you asked me who was in the First Derertuent, that would be another matter; % is something IT know very well, brceuse To ran into these peopie, and .... i One clso should know the names of the chiefs;  risht? B. Of the chiefs, I knew ... who there. FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich, ((and)) an i. Oh, FEDOTOV, Petr Vasil'yevich ... poor old man; no doubt he is turning over in his grave. B. Do you know he is dead? A. Well, between us, vhat do you know that is unusual, which all of the employees knew about FEDOTOV? B. Petr Vasil*yevich? $ . 3 PY q A. Yes; something that was unusual. She = + BANNER caries AO Ane He rea toons tes neg wet ne ae * \
104-10210-10030 cate emg ammnntas nnn me peee areame = + RB. Ae Well, wi.2t unusual thing Go Tokriw sro FL DOpiv? Tounte that MOLOTOV thought well of hin; ecpamnnly, this wes .... Something wlusuel; he was merried more than ones -- he was carried to a her. tw? 5 fe a 4 i Q = a a Hi a od . be} te ) a, Ee has tvo grown children -- 2 dacghter ec) 4 son -- but thie is not unuruel. Many pectle, hich officials, divorced titir wives ani married otners, and so forth; <i: Soviet coclety, this is nut At the seme tims here ({in the Weld), narticwariy when there are €% :fllion SOnen more, it is easy to choose Well, what others ((Deputies}) were there? You should knew. Some people you cennot avoid. well, TLRIYA was arrested; CDuaiLOV ters Minister; you naned, as nis Deputies, JEROV, FOMASHTOV; ho ¢lsc ves there? Now many Armenians were fired efter the cerest of KCRULOV? Iodoa:ct snow hew many; but, in 16,3, whin f head just come in, thore were soma people fired -- they were firin. ncooles. In the first Departrent, so many vomen vere working, all of the women were Lired. Then, there were all kinds ef AYVOCOVs ((typical Arcenian name)}, and so on, and so on; none of them were left. Jews were fired. Vell, in 1953, there already were no Jews; if there were, they were only those whom BERIYA took in. No, there were still Jews arouni; they were in the Second Directorate. well, anyway, who else was a Deputy Minister? I do not rememper. ‘ ‘hc denws! 6S ete
104-10210-10030 weeny nee a ae oF ate B. CUshest - hl) - : : t well, it t9 interecting for re to know vhat force 15 preventing you fron talking avout what really wee wnere. Vell, Zam telling you what vac really tiere, what T remenper. well, mo,ve Iocan remember come th wee o oO ino] y oo 29% come to mind. You ese -- perhaps I have cuch 2 I can t4il so many things evcub what wiey talk about at the too, wrat 1 neard about co many people; Lut, right now, a cannot. ow te ay i] by 9 e o S reg ft o Q ae ' oe re) Lory t "y i & . Pa ran Q i 7] ct If we tse the newsepepers for thoc eo-end-s9 ... you urdecstand. I think you see ... IT em askin vou... nmtocia of this was written in tne newSTarers. Vell, uh... yes ... mo... You ste co rant fn a newspaper, and right away you can .... mnowna to thw whole world. ne nents of ARUGLOV an oO “a c: oO rE i fe ta Of course, in intelligence circl known very “*11; to others, he means nothing. Abcolutely. ((Pause.)) Well, just as tie question was -- “Well, had you heard, tefore you worked for the MVD, did you hear the nare ... let us sey ... GRIESMUV?"” i never heard it. “FEDODIY 2° Tonever ‘new about him and never I believe that. If you did not work there, it could te that you never heerd of hin. Eut, if ... you were their agent, you micht have heard of hin. ‘who knows? It happens that way. a 4 4 ((Pause.)) Weil, who else was there? KRUGIOV, SEROV, ROMASHKDV; who else? I do not remember.
104-10210-10030 die aly Be A. Well, teiay we began to srean To whom are the Internal Troops noe ouborainnt You were thcre not too lon: ers. Nog hey are not in the Boh. Wrere are they, if not ((in the 2027), I do not know if they exist nor, ff they existe now Every emplcyee of the Second Clier Dorecturate .... p te . " No, not Convoy ((Troops)), tut Inverell, ccc or ost likely, they are in the Mvp. There fe no MVD. MOOP -- Ministry for Preservaticc tr Public Cater. Vell, end the Convoy Troovs? ‘iso in the MVD, Lecnuse all the cece are tlove, in the MVD. There are only two prisons in ths Ob. Vell, when ERTL. took power, to vaca €id the cames. belonr? I do net kmow these detatis, Ids nat hnev. . Of course, they belong to the NDB. An employee vho worked in the Seernd Chie? Directorate must know this. And if I ask you the question, 2:4 you even have not heard or do not know of the Directorate for the Protection of Stete Treasures, which also worcs very closely with the Second Chief Directorate .... If you know Department "K", then you muct know this -- you cannot get around it. ((Long pause.)) Well, think sto-t it again. KRUGLOV was Minister; SEROV, | Deputy; NCMASHKOV, a Deputy; who els«? I do not know; I do not rementer. Well, very well; KRUGLOV became Minister; who was the Chief of the First Chief Directorate at that tine? — se ae nha ae ae se hb OM ase ccmtiatenelpin akin)
104-10210-10030 fhe ve A. oo anes mranniomenseenen nna teen tention 2 A a \ arie podaiueeren nner eeween ey oo > ti e r ° he Was O Party workes:. After ELHTYA's arrest, thes put hin in wn: cy tard; later, he ccain was tabea to do Prarty ~cern, and then they sent iin to le an Jmbassader to one of the yecogle's democratic countrics. Vell, farther -- who was Cife? cf - nuns? Ico not rexenter. Of Investigations? Ido not remexter. Of the Inspectorate? It ceased to exist after ti. arrest af EOSTYA. Tne Lorder Troo:s? rl woLeins after MASLELLIOV, Ov JY. ae thaatet HOV; The Internal Trecps? I do not know. Tue Militia? There were many in the Militia -- ABRAMOV, IDoieCy, nary. Well, many, mamy; who was Chief of Militi« «when ANIGLOV wes Minister? I ¢o not remester. I know that, in the Militia, ABRAHOV, JOSIFOV, 2nd SLPAKHANOV were workin What have we left out so far? Who was Chief of the Kommendant Departnent? I only remember EPOVAIN. Who was Chief of Department “X"? IVANOV. He was, until the end, when the department was cocbine’. SECRET ces oe ane . Baan . eR wuchiedDiiles'carttepiine ns iste ehh ielatfiele wae 62 Abe | .
104-10210-10030 3s And GULAG? 5, There already was no GULAS. 4. «efl), it was there; {t dita not efeanrear, B. If it was there, then i+ was in the i; LT do rot now. ‘Ae Vell, at thet tine, there sas omy ont Wirtets;, F. 2 go not know, 1 do ret knoe, Teg net mea, fie The Prisons Directorst-? +. I co not know. A. The First Special Dej-s. icant? 5. I do not know. “ve The Second? ws agate meade ao OEE! Pe SHZOLOTEYY became ((Chier)). EH. There was PEL'CHEI™C. S cipdetcbece iets Sader shmvawet AE “e The Fourth? te * +} oy 9 fa] ‘2 tu of ~ roy *, ee 3. Ido not know, fe Toe Fifth? B. I do not know. The Sixth -- SHCHIKOCHIZHIN. 4. The Chief of the Secretariat? B. After KRUGLOV, DOBROKHOTOV. i } Ae Well, under KRUGLOV? B. I do not know. A. The Judicial Bureau? B. I eo not know. SECRFT een Ashes ene ene mine sateen Snares «
104-10210-10030 'g ‘to talk about EERIYA in their offices, fearirg “bugs” (texhnika). Toe Speelel Court? , Trere wes none. why not? There was, at ore time .... Well, whet else was there under UCL? ((Lorg pecse; no revie.)) You wiierstend yourcelf hew little you knev, for one to Geilieve that you worked there. wi cece to nore there, who Lad just berun .... -«. For a case officer wro ald vec popers, works with files, arets de would cone ucross all the naus 2 4 ase::c63; te reports to the chiefr, ct: r ocperation:.1l, cmsomol and Party meetings and conferences; every ty, i coes to work in Puiicing oL. 7%, Ne. 12, ard others; he nust pnuw eesstifag. Eut your knowledge ic not that of a croe officer, Lut of a man wio simply @ronped in there and can: cat, ((Long pause; no repiv.)) ZT would lite to find the explanation for this prreblen, woo held the meeting in the Cecord Ciies Directorate after the arrest of BERIYA, when they expletred why he nac Petn arrested? I Ge not remerber. I do not remecher that such a meeting wes held for the whole directorate. Can you give me a version which you heard os know of how EZRIYA wes arrested? Yes, what I know. IT said “version” because there were so many rumors, ard there still are. BERIYA was arrested at a meeting of the Presidium CC, formerly the Polittyuro. It was entirely unexpected for hin. The meeting vas on a Friday, and he was arrested by the nilitery. Marshal HKOKEV took part; I do not know who else. (XG) I beard ... I only heard that “HRUSHCIIEV, BULGANIN and others were afraid hee ese 2 — SERRE swatch etithons, Sees
104-10210-10030 4 a . ° r ' : ‘ _- ! we Prorebss they vere cleht. : ned 3 : eae ML _@ S. uwaod 2 aiso weere thet “bors west . tt £ : Arcy apecialists, rot fron the sree * i . . (f05; A and B epeak at the emus vine. 3} Bet Io go not lmow where -- in his orifice or comeynere elie -- but the Lugs” were ured. cr On she came night -- if already «22 .. the evening on Friday -- the KILULOVs, tae oO cf a ac) a n a *4 0? ? *g - a uy et ao > ° BENANOSOV, GOGLITZ ax ie Mave vou heard the rant, MMIC Y? a. Yes, yes. Ne wes elso a Deputy; he worked in te 1B. Ee was from Georgia ((the Georzicn 3, PLRIVA's can, b Tadeo not knew, I lo not ano. J. @nd what wad DUAANCZOV dsing at that tinct! De DELAY was vorking in the Mintetry oc: Forelon .oYaire, ae are you sure? >. No, I an not sure; I hnuov that he woceed, ve Well, he was working .... Under BERIYA, he did wt work there; he did something else. =. I cannot say exactly. And DEKANOZOV ~- they even arrestej him -- he flew in, and they arrested iin right at the airport; well, I heard such details. From where did he fly, from U-orziz, or? ... I do not know. ceren gate &. Well, if you know, tell r=. 3 ¢ ‘ , Py a i “3 4 i an ates B. I an telling you that DEXANOZOV was arrested right at the airport, as Le Bee oo Cd eer se St Gahan Se Andee Ct ca eS Ree eam off the piane. el 898 eee = a ;
104-10210-10030 > Do you know who, from the Uecord’ Chief Directorate «. Jo you remesber when : : there was an uprising in Erst Germany: t NOs bh Oh... you have Grrmany im mind; 16 «ac ciriier, saritier. In 199, it was in Eunvary, Polsoi. fe “ery well, I will tell you -- it «n5 in 2053, on U7 cane. i. Who, from the Secerd Chief Lirectriate, «ert to Terlia at thst time? T. Ido not know, Ido not know, I do not know. Vell, I do not insist on this question, if yau dc not know, you do not racy. + No one wert from the First Depertrant. If you worked there, you would know exactly. + exe. tly that no one vent frou Fires Department. tet v it ro] % : Vell, «e have to go further -- HEUOLCY, SHTOV, POMACTINCV oo. E. There is an interesting detail atout EOMACHIOV. Ne leter -- this was in 1057 ... 2.90, in 1992 ... -- be was ... he ¥ one tine in the CC; he is a CO worker. But, he worked in the CC at one tine; then again, in the organs; again,in the Cc; then, in the organs, all his life. And, in the latter period, he worked in the MVD, in the MVD. ‘ Re made appearances on television. ‘| It seems he was some kind of Deputy Minister; maybe, of the MVD. This is not e rumor; it is a fact. And someone saw him, someone whom he had intsrrogeted and who had been convicted, 1 eee RENE Enns are ee eo although not guilty; and he ((this yercon)) sent a letter to som: big can in the CC, and this letter served to have RICOIOV fired. cf ere aa bn * Bh neta ithe ey fren
104-10210-10030 ae STN A ene eee em 6 cmt ee te net cee, wenn temerndy Da A. A. B. Ko cne cculd nelp KOMVENGV; no ome could rive him. I ave in mind Minister of th: M.D TIUKUY, wo wes there in 10690. Taney could not Nelp hin fn any say, ani he «ts remove. from all his poszs. Who elee vas there? Igo not rementer, I do rot rerecier. 5 whinth — ‘ am 8Nat Terrened to STcTUAlcy? Ke was Hinistes of Internal Affster, after .TUaloV. Qhen ~- 35 you crow -- the Ministry of antesnal AP atrt or the UCER vas o eavolished, und the Ministry of Tternal Affairs of the WKOFSP remained. Yes. STAKHANGY was Minister for the rok. ume. Tacn ne was removed ard SHELODIN': Devuty from the KGB -- TIKUNCV -- replaced uty to SHELUPIN in the 25; he also wee from the CC cf the Party. PTIAUROT, yasim ... Vadin, wac linictor of the MVD and this Ministry was “reorgonize? angar TIARGY «5 the iiiristrsy for the vreservetion of Public Giver. Ara vho elise was there between them? iimey I thins, after STAMAAUOV, there was T STANAEANOV was after KRUGLCV. Did you ever hear of DUDCROV? DUDOROV, DUDOROV -- you are right; DUDOROV, yes. After KRUGLOV, it was DUDGAOV. And, after that, it was STAKE DOV; rigrt. Well, what did they do with DUDOROV? © He was removed. . Fy ‘we Deen Ih. wa ete ot tied de,
104-10210-10030 _ , oon _ ali « a Ae Well, where did they rut nin? oe +» Igo not knew where they rut hin; Doo net pnuw where he corked. ' - fe Alt you do not Enow chout Clute: *. Ne, 2 do not know. - Prvletly there was tals in tos ad welt tal happene? to then, -+ Ico not knov, 5 do not cnev. fe PPh SRUGLOV -- dil they rat Lin i sesien os ecrssthing? -e at tle veginnirc, ‘hey pit cha on Frewgsicr, ondothen, after ns was on ce. sien, the deprived hia of the version acc pit ht ous of the Party. y waten they reviewed all the old files. ve Eat ke helnei to menove Eitrva, A 4 2. SENGY helped to remove ELIT. @ ‘ é id =e . . Bi » TIWGLY also was there, 4 Tf SSVGLCY had not helptl, he would aot hive beeowe Minister after PLUPIYA, ; Be ({Lerng Fause.)) I do not encw Way AOVGLOY os removed; they ever tock avay 4 Hee pension and put hin cus of the Party. i it ia ((eR2ax)) A. You cannot answer anything i ask cf you. ’ “  " E. Well, understand me; I ensver your questions as I can. I ves thinking this way -- “sho, what kird of names did I know, not working in KGB ....” i 4 ; Sus say, I heard the race of the Chief of Convoy Troops «- I heard it when I was 3.student -- there ves Lt Gen ECCHKOV. Froa where ((did I hear this))? i i i | t | Z | ; His son, Boris BOCHKOV, lived in tie same house as I, on Granovskiy Street. . hie BICEVYOY et arn tine Refam the cae yad thea Chief Prosecutor.
104-10210-10030 te teams oe SEE A. B. I kace, when I was a student in pife. il, this IOCiov wes Cufer of che F Convey Droops. New, I heamd ... I knew a Cenradly VoSCNNYY-NCcDAIN I knew this ycu.g fellow. i LEONE -NAGCANY ? Tais is a double name: NAGORITY-INUADIIN, or LACEUXTN-RAGOSYS. What was his rank? Ics not know -- a general, but I co sou know. mi vourg fellow, Gennacdiy, was ia c.ottool with m1 ... in Eacu .... +} Ii seems he was ... yes. eho ics this NASEDKIN? i oat “ell, the son of this NAGQUIIYY-N/CELIIN. Diz EQCHAOV slso have a sont Yes, Boris BOCNKOV; we lived in the came bulldins. IeSEDNTN had two sona; IT did not encw the other, I «new only Gersadcty. B.Cn2¥ had only one son, Boris, 2 pilot. het else do you renmerber? I ax simply saying .. I am trying to answer what I recall, that which I reztenber, as it was. Well, there is very little, very Little. I doubt you have such a poor memory .... HL seyret ne Mh fake cane Well, you know how the memory is -- you read sonething ... you look at it eee oh, this, this, thin, this, I know ... when (XG). Can you deseribe the first identification (udostoverentye lichnosti) which you received when you first began to work in the MVD? ; 4 ‘a Tt was a red book; in the center was printed the seal (gerb) of the Soviet Unie other eek fe t ! i i sete Ddaed teed ss
104-10210-10030 ow thar Parr np an rere renee nnn) oe seine seman s ees mee ares ? ise &, ba e E. Right; ard I received ((that one with the inscription of)) the ‘Ministry of Ministry of Jnternal flstre of tra USSE on 2... Gl the wel?, you cen forget such dctatic; teil re muce. That Js ell; there is absolutely nothin: core printed on it. 2 . Vell, you know, there was an inte:reseins: tcciod after the death of LPALIN and before EBSRIY4’'s arrest, and th=n, alter RARITY‘ ': arrest and Lefers they what pecuillarities vere there about the fientifis+ ion which were noted and which everyone knew about? I do not know, I do not knew. I do vst enow what peculiarities ther: wore, I do not know. Tais is still another confirmation thas you were not there ut trait time. If you cannot answer this question av) say tist youdoe not know in uny way oes. I do nol Rnow What there was that can so noticexble. > pe to vhat time, I had no identifiention. fo I do not know, I am telling vou. Eut you received it as scon as you began vorking. ¥ internal /ffairs”. Are you sure that you received the identification for the Ministry of Internal Affairs, or did you receive one for the Ministry of State Security et that tine? ((iong pause; then, speaks with uncertainty, in a low voice: )) No ... Internal Affairs .... : Anyvay, what was printed on it? I do not know what you have in rind as a characteristic feature which was noted by everyone.
104-10210-10030 A. @ will tell you -- Tohave in itsi c speci2l stamp that case gut in the icentification at thet tine. that kind of strup vas it? ee eee jv. AS SCON as the IND and MOS were eccubingd, after th: deat: of GMAIN, they put tn a stacn, Lecause tac two Linistrtens bela tt tun tovetine. Lb. TF @o rot kroz; I do nob reset ny Teo not reveghes, Léa cov remerher. i.  , after EERIYA wus arrested, ancther steanp vas put in. ‘ '. 0. 2? nat rememoer, Ido not rearencer, I do not remerber. a. is cannot be forgotten in any way. FPF. I do not know. ~ Tone ee ee A. Tecause, vithost that stamp, you -cald not 212 inte a tufldirr. Tne deentifieation wigan have ter. un. fdentifve sion, but try «ould not —s 4. It vas like this -- there were IV end PETPOV; they were working together in the same directorate, etc.; ‘ell, lt was like a great transnigratica of the people -- but, for one, they put in the stem and he could freely enter; but the other hed no stenp and no entry at all. If it was necessary, one had to order a one-time pass, despite the fact thet they had an indentification for the MVD or the MGB. B. No; I do not remerber the stamp; I do not rermenber. ‘ ——————————o Serene a ane —_ faa neal ss - . + sg as wed 4. There were many jokes about this stemn; if you vere there, you would never - forget them. ry aetna ee tian oem atmaramenrettie ee oe: Oo «erry nares Maghe L hed it; cayte
104-10210-10030 ~ th - : ? 4A. Again, thie is cne of the reacons that (s cannot be believed thet you worked tisxre at that tine. Well, explain to me in detail -- wiet dsce the serial muster (lichasy Znak) <. waich you mentioned, mean? whea did they intro@guce tim seri: RB. Ido not remecter when the: introduced if. They introduce? it ... it was mile fri. white retsl, a plate. agra, 7 Where ves a hole in it, on the left cite ... Vo onne -- tds reant Anned Forces (Vooruzhenryye Sily) of tne UID -- was cat in ((.e. into the retel)). A. Cut in; what else? BP, ‘SSCR'; and, et the bottom, was “Ye ((i)) , two zeros, and th: sunber ((i.e., "E00....")). E. And the number; that is all, rnithing elee. fi. What wes the approximate size of this olate? B. Ltke this (Gilluctratec.) ee fi. Hell, in centineters, approsizat:ly. B. Whe width -- 2 ems., ami here, {6 wilh te 4-5; 2 ({cns.)) ty 4, or 2 by 5. A. Well, anproximately 2 by '? B. Yes, ty &, by 4. A. Or 2 by 5? Yes. 2 , Fa oe ot e A. Is the name printed on it? andes th act ewes at ashi a EE dns ET F : es 4 i
104-10210-10030 %. Was {t a simple alimirum plate? EF. At the top, there is “VS SEOR’ then... it is out in, in blacs or vlue .., cut in there; end, et the Lotion, there ic the lester, "Ye", ard the nurter, A. ‘What Coes "Ye" ctard for? B. That sisnifies the series; I red-a ‘Ye ocrial nuler .. Ido not know ... aA. Series Ye"; what co the two cercos stor 2 Ter? That wus the begining of the rumler vs waat ees your nucber? 2 5. Two zeres and then... Ido not remtrter ... 1023 ... or 10e0 ... I do net FEMERUES ae ws Two zeros and four more nucters. in the 'GB identification on tie a* Q ret ({(vecee.)) This ta erial moter is prin left side, where the photo vec; it is written in ia India ink when you receive the identificiation .. your cericl mumver is already written in. is Ae This B. No, this 13 ret the number of the identification; this ics tne serial nucter. No, ro, no; the nmunher of the identification is on the right. Eefore I was Deputy Chief of the secticn, it was “OS", and ((for those)) fron ((the position of )) chief of section, er, co to say, deputy chief of departzent, here vas "NS", “NS”, that is right. A. Well, and the identification? And the number of the identification... it was "OS" and the number of the i | B. : . identification, and then, lates, from chief of section and deputy chief of | department, WS" and the number of the identification. Fe mee ee A. Well, what does “OS” stand for? B. well, probsbly “officer personnel (cfitserskiy Sostav)"; and "NS", probatly “executive personnel”. ; re oa ae ean 3 Poll sateen nip emcee. 6a oe , Z ‘ x - eT nomi Sut G tas hae pane or
104-10210-10030 A. ‘gy 9 1 2 6 "™ a a i 2 “t ws t ro a = : N ~ ct “ ¥ ai =~ = tA ' ' Well ... Tcay (35° or Ml’... 17 “executive personnel”. Veli, when and why dic they introduce these nunhers? what is it called -- the serial nomber? Serisl movber. “Serial mober' or ‘rerconsal ts, This is a rlate. You are right -- it fs personal tac, tut on it, thers is the serial niuuber, your personal nunber. - And ther, in the identification, it is written that this is not a “personal tag”, but a serial miumortr, such am such. well, think it over -- when did thsy introduce them? otal ((Pause.}) I do not remember; in any case, nob easlier than 2955 ... not earlier, net easlier, no, ns. Not earlier then 19557 fo, this plate ... not carlier .... (QGause.)) I received it when I was worsinc in the Ceventh Departsent; this means in the pericd ... I was there from i535 t0 1959, something like that, in thic pericd, but in which year -- Ido not krow, Ico not remerter. Why «ere these numbers introduced? How was this explainzsd? Por what were they neeced? Well, they did not explain; they ceve them to us -- that is all; each of us signed for his number; a Personnel officer gave them out. ome ae Where were you instructed to keep then? a mtd obae nae Well, I kept it in my safe, but -- in general -- the idea was you had to keep it somewhere on your person with your personal documents; you had to have it with you; you might lose it. But most of the time, it was in the safe. . Look -- so many, as I, did the following: you have a little chain; then what? 4 54 heat RY te!
104-10210-10030  — erteserrenesenens wd a ua You have the key from the sate, . ney to the roor, the seal with whieh wou seal the cafe .... ato ore time, I wore it here .... Ae what kind of a seal did vou lave? what was the rocmber on it. GB. The seal was an old one, Lat it hag “VTE written un it. #n 1d seal. Ie seews 146 325 cose SABARIN, the Cupply man, iesued it. You had to sign out for it, too. There were Instances in which tusy were lowt. &. Well, if you lose it, do they punish you and give you a new ore! Bb. ‘they cive you a new one. A. DAd everyons have a seal? Be. ({rcuce.)) You see, the idea vas thet everyone hed to have tils tesl to you work in tre Seventh Lai ea, nis safe; wut, in practice ... let us sey Repartcent -- there are aro five people in @ room; everyore trie to . shortece of small safes (dvoyka). have his own safe, but there was 2 : Eccause there were not enoug!: small safes, there were large cafes, tulier ones *.. two or three recnle could use then. Ons worker or enother would seal the safe. Anyone who might not have one ({a seal)) would make excused not to get one because he feared losing it. A. But did every seal have a nucber? B. ((Pause.)) Well, I do not know; I did not check.’ . - Of course, the seal has a nusber; in the center, there is a nunber. is. A. Was there enything else on these seals? st tnmamanloeiy ot tire nee me 9 alien Cr or. ee B. There is writing arourd ((the edge of it)}. A. ‘well, what was written there? sme Nelle the a didehabiate cen. oo newts
104-10210-10030 4 1 eb E. There ... I rad an old senl ... ‘Ministoy of Stat: Cecurtity Lock” or ess 7 essn". MGR’. yes, and, in the canter, in the center, a ; sare eee MGB ESS , 1S 3s) s yer, Mag AN , > . 3 rnudtcer. ae? A. I sex -- were there seals without motecs? OE Ans ((2:D oF ROEL # 6 (3 August 1965 Sesston continuel on feel rs zh ~ — we ae] VERiA?)) ‘s CO amp woe tk dnd th are ' he * -t j Sa ae, pi 4 ‘ z +R » gies é PROOR UNCER Sn ae wey