157-10044-10080 08/06/95 1 ae] @ Q ® JFK ASSASSINATION SYSTEM IDENTIFICATION FORM AGENCY INFORMATION AGENCY : SSCIA RECORD NUMBER : 157-10014-10080 RECORDS SERIES : HEARINGS AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 10-H-12 DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : SSCIA FROM : HEDGEMAN, VICTOR TO : TITLE : DATE : 08/21/75 PAGES : 121 SUBJECTS : ASSASSINATIONS, LUMUMBA CONGO CIA DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED { RESTRICTIONS : Ewer CURRENT STATUS : RELEASED WITH DELETIONS DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/25/98 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Box 3 [R] - ITEM IS RESTRICTED HY 50955 Docld:327423468 Page 24
iM CII ies Cee SALT ORMATION ‘Ynguthorived Dsselosurd*subject to Crimiaes- Sanctions Balas - Report of Proceedings eventomien a an Hearing held before SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES A Thursday » August 21, ‘1975 Washington, D.C el (Stenotype Tape and Wante turned over ro the Comittee for destruction) WARD & PAUL 410 FIRST STREET, 8. F. WASHINGTON, 1. ©. 20003 ——_——— (202) 644-0000
Ferrer Rercoe cele ere pap aes rs Pande ips : Bie thks hie a ees E< (Witness: Hedgman) EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICATION pov asd . a e é Cc 7 4 436 Fost Street, SE. Wasrngion, OC 20003 TOP SECRET
STAFF INTERVIEW Thursday, August 21, 1975 Unitad States Senat Select Committees to Study. Governmenta t. Operations With Respect | | : Intelligence Activitias c b. Hashington, pursuant to notice, at 10:05 o'clock Pe) @ Ee s @ rad a E 9° U e 4 & Burton Wides, Prederick Baron and Rhatt Dawson, * a.™m., in Room 608, The Carroll Arma. Staff Professional Staff Members. 2 2 21 2 20 4 15 16 19 6) 1 FROOT “IG “WOrtroreeras rH Ys aers lms OUP
Prone (Av oe 707) 544-4000 7 rd “3 & G a G & c 4 A B10 Forse Siv94a, &E. wawmengtas, B.C. T0603 TOP SECRET | PROCEEDINGS Mr. Baron. Would you state your nama and address for | the record, please? \ Mr. Hadgman. My name is Victor S. Hedqman. [ can be reached at 411 times at the Central Intelliqence Agancy. Mr. Baron. And Mr. Hedgman, isn’t it true that Victor S. | Hedgman is actually an alias and that wae have agreed that you will testify here today under alias? Mr. Hedgman. That's correct. Mr. Baron. And isn't it further true that we have made arrangemanta with you that your true identity will be recorded \ On a statamant regarding testimony in allaa which will be | permanently on file at the Central Intelligence Agency for \ verification purposes? | H Mr. Hedgman. That's correct. I believe that this, that 1 I woulda lika to add that I have asked that this be done for ; Mr. Baron. And you understand that we will retain a ‘ my own protection, protaction, physical protection, actually. sanitized copy of this form to attach to your transcript as “Exhibit 1? Mr. itedqman. 1 do. Mr. Baron. All right. Then let us introduce this statement which you have signed as Exhibit 1. (The document referred TOP SECRET
Prone [Aree 207) 44-4008 ? ary 3 < @ a a 4 8 Cc a | ho TOP SECRET eDiet aa nee oe ane one ds aS to was marked Hedgman Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)
~ Mr. Baron. Let ma ask you to verify the fact that that is your true signature? Mr. liedgman. That ia my true signature. Brgng tdree POP} $25-4008 Mr, Baron, Thank you. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. Baron. Mr. Hedgman, are you aware that you hava 4 riqht to counsel before this Committes? 9 Mr. Nedgman. Yes, IT am. But t shall ask for it if 1 feal jo || the need. Mr. Raron. All right. 4 Ara you voluntarily appearing here today without counsel? Mr. Hedgman. I am. ra Pd 2 & é % Me. Baron. And you 4&re aware that at any point. during ~ war 15 the questioning you may cease anawering the quastions and 7 4 16 requast to consult with counsel? 17 i Mr. Hadgman. I am. 1 a le i Mr. Baron. Are you also aware that all of your constitu- 9 tional rights are intact here today, including your Fifth 2 | Amendment rights to silence? Mr. Hedgman. I am. Mr. Baron. Although you ara not under oath here today. armington, D.C. 20002 22 24 are you aware that the Committas intends to ask you to awaar fa 210 Fost Sreewt, $2. 24 to the truth of your testimony here as soon 48 possible? 2s Mr. Hedgman. I am aware of that, and for the record would TOP SECRET |
Prone (Aven 202} 4446-4000 + ~ awe wane a> 216 Float Steet, &L., Wawrenaton, DC. 70003 4 | make evary effort, but again, IT am stressing thie fact that 1 | like to make the point that I am going on recollection of avants which occurred nearly fiftaen years 890: some fifteen years, some slightly more, some slightly less. So therefore, { will have not had an opportunity to refresh my memory by reading old files or anything of tha sort. 9 Me, Baron. That is complately undarstandable. 8 Mr. Hedqman. I just want this <= I am making this point 9 | for the Committes member 8 « I have already made it to you 10 || yesterday. i : 11 | Mr. Baron. And it is understandable that wa aré asking | you to discuss avents that took place aimost fifteen years a9o, 12 but it is your intention to give us the truth as far as you can 14 | recall it? 15 i Mr. Hedgman. It is my full intention to give the truth. 16 | Mr. Baron. Thank you. Vw : Mr. Wides. Mr. Hedgman, would you please briefly give 148 i us a description of your career with the Agency, and that can 19 | ba by basically divisions or type of job in a vary prief. eu : aummary. 2} Mc. Hedgman. JI bagan, was recruited to serve, as what 2p | is referred to as a non-official cover agent, and I was a \ en | contract 48 opposed to 4 ataff officar. That was changed { - | shortly afterwards. 1 think a faw months later I was mada 4 staff officer but ramained on official covar for the first saverphl TOP SECRET
AtO Forat Street, & L,, Crowmungion, pc 26003 Prane tAaroa FOP} er J 2 4 a & @ < z rr 10 1} | | is 15 1 Fa 34 : 2: | an ‘TOP SECRET years of my time, working abroad. I returned to Washington where I then became overt in the sanse of I worked in the offices and was no longer ostensibly a private businessman. I served as what is known as & case officer in the European area. Mr. Baron. About what time period would you say? Mr. Hedgman. It was ‘53 to early ‘57. .Eatly 167 until the mid-60's I sarved in Europa working primarily on Soviet operations. Mr. Dawson. I think you might have misspoken. You said mid-60°s, early ‘57 to mid-60's. Did you mean 19607 Mr. Hedgman. Mid-1969, yes, I would correct that. From July 6 on until -~ 1 can't remember whether it was Juna or July of 1963 I served as Chief of Station in than Leopoldville, now Kiergshasa, Zaire. I was Chief of Station. 1 then returned to Washington in the early fall, the exact dates I don’t recall, of 1963, and I was what is known ag a Branch Chief. I was responsible for the eastern half of Africa from 1963 to June June of 165 till June of *67, a I raturned to Washington whera I became franch chief again for the Southeast Asian area for a very brief time. In easunce it was to prepare me for my next assignment which was the Chief of Station, Vientiane, Laos. TOP SECRET t pes ‘
Upon completion of that assignment -~ Mr. Baron. You began that assignment in ‘67? Mr. Hadgman. No. f began the Southeast Branch Chief job Prgng (282 202) 144-4000 in ‘67. I began the COS job in the summer of ‘68, and I laft there in the summer of ‘70. As you know from earlier, ill-health played a role in unfortunately forcing me to leava. 1 then returnad to Washington whare I became deputy Chief of the African pivision, January, 1971 until December, 1971, at which time I became Chief of the Division and remained Chief until I retired. Mr. Baron. Until December of ‘72, would that have been? aus) Mr. Hedgman. No, Dacamber of ‘71. Baron. No. * awe S Mr. Wides. No. ty 7 Mr. Hedgman. Then l ratired 28th of June, 1974. Mr. Wides. You were first approached to go to the Congo as Station Chief for the Congo and other nearby countries in | Sune of 19607 I 20 | Mr. Hedgman. No. It was quite some time before that. | i'm sorry, I can't ramember specifically whether it was four vo months, fiva months. Actually, they calkad to ma about it as 23 | much as a year ~~ aio Farst Street. SE., Wasmenaton, OT. 20099 D4 Mr. Widas. And you want out =~ at 25 Mr. Hedgman. Not 4 year. Maybe seven or wight or nine TOP SECRET sie
450 Forge Stoner, Prone {Arne 202) 444-4000 e. o > 4 % i c fy 7 $.E., Marematan, OC, 2600) montha. I don't remember. I was in Washington. My father was, wa thought, dying at the tima, and T had flown home to ba with him. Mr. Wides. And you went there on June 10th or Lith? Mr. Hedgman. I'm sorry ~~ Mr. Wides. Approximately? Me. Hedgman. It was aither the LOth of the Lith that I first arrived. Mr. Wides. The beginning of the second week in June? Mr. Hadgman. Of July. Mr. Wides. Of July, I'm sorry. And that was shortly after the Congolese independence from Mr. Hedgman. The indepandance was on thea 30th of June and I was, had bean given vacation time, which I got in one day before 1 arrived, but they called ma, I was taking some vacation in Europe on the way down and they phoned me, traced me down, and said get down there, the mutiny had taken place and the place was coming apart. Mr. Wides. Prior to your leaving, and in connection with your prepserations and briefings and discussions at Headquarters, had there bean any discussion at all with you or that you were aware of ragarding the possibis assassination of Patrice Lumumba? Mr. tludgman. Absolutely none. I can say that that is TOP SECRET ee
Pras (Ares 2032) 344-6908 4 4 3 a 210 Fest Street, $.£.. Marunator, D.C, 20003 16 1} 4 i! le 13 16 { 1 | 19 absolute surenesa of recollaction. Mr. Wides. And then you had been thare a short “hile, 1 taka it, and in about the last week of July, when Patrice Lumumba and othars from the Congo cama to the United States, ! bealiave around the 26th of July, am I correct, that both you and the Ambassador returned to America? Mr. Hedgman. That's corract. Mr. Wides. And during ‘your return here, in any discussion you had with officials at CIA or other government officials. did you have any discussions or laarn of any diacussions regarding the possible assassination of Patrice Lumumba ? Mr. iledgman. No, sir, I did not. Mr Wides. And than you returned to the Congo? Mr. Hedgman. Yes. f believe wa returned on the 4th of August, if memory serves ma. Mr. Wides. Now, as a vary brief background for the next series of questions, is it correct that by early September, that is by the 5th of 6th, Patrice Lumumba had been dismissed as Premier and the U.S. had already become seriously concerned “about the beginning of Soviet assistance or {nvolvemant in the 2y | Congo and the possibility of Soviet influence in tha Congo? { 22 Mr. Hedgman. I believe those dates are correct of tha 24 Sth or 6th. It could conceivably be the 7th. Certainly lona 24 | bufore that tims, those of us interested in the political 25 situation there; that is, the Ambassador, members of the Politich! TOP SECRET
Prone {Arad 202} 444-4006 3 a a & 8 < AEC Tivge Stroet, SC. Wasnemgran. 5 C 20003 8 9 16 1] 13 14 15 "| rv | le 1% 2U 22 Zs 24 25 | TOP SECRET Saction, myself, wore greatly concerned ebout what appearad to be a Soviat effort to take over tha Congo. Mr. Wides. And because of conflict between -- among, I guess, ia the appropriate word -«+ beacause of conflict, or potential conflict, among the central government under President Kasavubu and othars as one faction, Patrice Lumumba and his followers as a second faction, and Mr. Tshombe his follwers as a third -« Mr. Hladgman. And Gilzenga as a fourth. Mr. Wides. Gizenga, I take it he W8a8S somewhat within Lumumba’s camp? Mr. Haedgman. Yus. I'm Sorry. = should not have interrupted. Mr Wides. In any avent, there was the potential of imminent fratricidal war? Mr. Hedgman. Tshombe had already declared the Katanga to be an independent state of Katanga on the lith of July, if Memory sarves ma. Me. Wides. Is it also correct that Mr. Lumumba oe the ‘Person of these thray leaders, of those three factions, whose 2) | potential activities concerned the United Statas the most at that point, particularly with regard to the possibility of Communist influence in the Congo? Mr. Jledgman, Ara wa referring to the September period now, late August, September? TOP SECRET
Prone thes POF} 444-4006 @ “wath @ Baur’ 410 Frees Steoer, $0. Warremgron, OL SOOOR Mr. Wides. Yas, yas. Mr. Hedgman. I would aay, but there was another -~ there waa also -- there was also great concern about the Tshombe Succession, which wa did not recognize. Me Wides. Right. Right. Tn early September, did you receive a massage from tead- Quarters indicating that you would, on a special restricted channel indicating it wae fer Your syeas only at the Station, and telling you that a Messenger whom you would recognize would he arriving with a mission for you? Mr. Nedgman. I belisvae, yes, T received such a massage. Mr. Wides. When,. would you please stata -- Mr. Hedgman. And I beliave that wag the general thrust of the wording. I cannot, at this time, affirm with absolute certainty that that was exactly it, but that is my recollection. Mr. Wides. When would ba the bast date that you would best be placing that time that you could give’ us? Mr. Hedgman. I believa it would have been around the baginning of Saptember, but I cannot pin it down more than ‘within a week or ten days. Mr. Wides. About how long before the messenger arrived 1 would you say the cable came, if you can recall? ! Mr, Hedgman. I cannot racall definitively. & would quess|, and I would just guess, a few days. Mr. Wides, And is 1t accurate that the thrust of the TOP SECRET
cable, you cannot recall particular words, was that a MesRenger whom you would racogniza would be coming to give you & mination r to carry out? Prone [Aves 207) $44-2000 Mr. Hedgman. As I undarstood it, he waa coming with | instructions. x did not know what typa, sort of instructions. Mr. Wides. Yes, Mr. Baron. Can you state in your own words just axactly what the gist of that cable was? 10 | @Ven close, but it is my -- Y am going again, end I stress this time now on recollection, and it is not a Sure thing, but my > : Mr. Hedgman. fr am not sure that it will be exact or { Facollection was that the cable advised me that a parson whom I would know to be or recognize as an officer of the Agancy, and I am not sursa that 1t¢ said as an officer of the Agency, Yeano wbaud someone who I would have recognized would arrive with instruc- tiens for me. Mr. Wides, Did the cable refer in any way to Lumumba that you can recall, that would involvs the Lumumba problem or - Mr. Hedgman. I think, it is my Tecollaction that it did “not refer to Lumumba in any way. Mr. Wides. And with regard -- Mr. Hadgman. Either directly or hint by indirection. Mr. Wides. With regard to the cables for general procedural aspects, is it corract that it hore a spacial 810 Forst Strout, $.£., Wasmmgion. O.¢. sone) Yelarence or Slug, I believe is the term? TOP SECRET
Prone {Aces 202) $46-6000 + ave 4, fy waco a> 7 £10 Foeas Steeet, $F. Wawmongiar, OL. 20003 TOP SECRET Mr. Hadgman. I think, I am guessing about that. Y think it Probably did, bacause that would hava been a normal way to indicate the special handling. I beliave the message also was marked for my eyes only -- Mr. Wides. It would not have been marked -- Hr. Hedgman. -- and contained instructions that I was not to discuss the message with anyona. Mr. Baron. And that you ware to destroy the messaqe? Mr. Hadgman. Not at that time. Mr. Wides. Did it indicates that any communications that you gent thereafter to the Neadquarters in connection with the ? i , {mpending visit were te be given the Bama slug or - } Mr. HNedgman. I am assuming that it probably did, but 1 cannot ba 100 percent certain. If dont recall sanding a Massage until after I mat the gentleman cancerned. Mr. Dawson. Maybe wa could approach that a differant way. | You do recall whatever Massage you received was not in the norma ! {| course of communications with the Agency? sareneees seementnnn ae anrtennes gyggennne Mr. Hedgman. Well, 1t came through Agency communications | channete, but it -- it was marked Fyas Only, forma. il Mr, Dawson. That's not unusual, necessarily? | Mr. Hedgman. At that time it wag more unusual than it is i | today, I would say. Mr. Widus. Was it marked RYRAT, do you know? Mr, Medgman. I'm sorry, I don't recall. TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET Mr. Wides. But RYBAT usually involved a fairly wide 2 dissemination, or at least dissemination to others in tha 3 Agancy. Prone {Aron FOF} $44-4000 Z b 6 would, of course, include also the communicator who would have | 7 encrypted it, neacassarily? 8 Mr. Hedgman. One communicator in Washington and one in - 9 Mr. Wides. Well, raturn -- Hedgman. -- in Kienshasa or Lecpoldville at that « 10 } time. } Mr. Hedgman. Yes, Mr. Wides. And when you say, Eyes Only, yourself, this i t 12 Mr. Wides. Wa will return in a momant to how you Phun” 13 dispatched communications back. oy aS a 14 Now, at some point shortly thereatter, someone did a wa 16 arrive from Washington whom you later determined was the f messenger referrad to in the cable, is that correct? 7 16 Mr. Hedgman. That's correct. Mr. Wides. And in terms of placing that visit, is it correct that you, your best baliaf is it was in the sacond weak .& Suptember or thereabouts? Mr. Hedgman. I would gay therwabouts, but again, I have tried to think, tried to pin down a date on this, and 1 cannct, Mr. Wides. But you place it in terma of -- Mr. iiedgman. 1 place it in terma of an apartment which TOP SECRET PEG Fsore Street, $B. Hahengion, OC. 20003
i rented, and I believe that I rented that apartment in fairly 2 | early September. 3 Mr. Wides. And it was not too long after you had rented . Prone [hree 707) $42-4000 ; Hit that this person came? 5 | Mr. Hedgman, Yes, yas. & Could we hold on? Mr. Wides. Yes. 8 Mr. Hedgman. Yeah. Yeah, Okay. I was remembering anothér 9 meating in that apartment, and I was able to idantify, pin down 10 || the time of that meeting, so -~ Mr. Wides. Who was the massenger who arrived? “~ —t Mr. Hedgman. , Mr. Sidney Gottlieb. | Sn, | Teeter ct Pre asian a w —_ . Res Mr. Wides. And at that time, you knew who he was? a @ Ca & < $ Hedgman. I racognized him as an officer of the “4 Wides. By nama, or on-site, or both? Hedgman. On-sita. Wides. And by name or not? Mr. Hedgman. YI do not recall whether YT knew his name, it Suspect I did, but I cannot reafflem that. Mr. Wides. Did you know what office ha worked in, or did he have to tell you that? » Wawingon, D.C 20003 Mr. Hadgman, I believe that I knaw, but this waa not with great cortaintly, that he vorked in the what was then called TSD, Technical Services Division. 1 dia not know what part of TOP SECRET 416 Fest Stemet, 5.€
Mr. Widas. Do you recall how he indicated to you that he was the Person referred to in the cable we have just Frane tArea 207} 444.4006 discussed? Mr. Hadgman. I cannot be absolutely certain, but r believe that he referred to the fact that 2 had received 4 | Message and that he was the person concerned, Mr. Wides. And did you Meet him at the airport, or did he «= Mr. Hadgman. No, Mr. Wides. What were the circumstances under which you first mut? Mr. Hedgman. It seems ridiculous, under the elreumstances that I cannot Pin this down. (Pause) Mr. Wides. Can wa just first go through your recollection | | Of being with him? i i Mr. Hedgman. I don't remember whather he cama to the 19 | Babess and asked to speak to ma, whethar I met him as he came i lout of the Fmbassy. It is concuivable that I could have been eu 2) told date and time, place, to meet him, Py fr. Wides. You don't recal} ~- Me. Hedgman. I don't Tecall. Mr. Wides. -- making any arrangements for his £10 Feat Strom. S.C. Wotmengron. O 70003 TOP SECRET
7 ra wand Phone ? , 410 Boost Stewet, $6. Mamingron, OL 29063 Prone [Aree 202) $44-4000 + Mr. Hadgman. No, I did not. Mr. Wides. Do you recall where ha Stayed while he was in Leopoldville? Mr. Hedgman. I balieve he stayed only one night, fr am not sure of that, and I think he stayed at the hotel. Mr. Wides. The main hotal in Leopoldville? Mr. Hedgman. At the Memeling (7), if he could get a room, Rooms ware hard to get. He could conceivably have atayad at my apartmant, if he stayed. Mr. Wides. And YOur Conversations with him all took in the apartment that you had recantly rented? Mr. Hedgman. It took Place in my peraonal apartment Mr. Wides. Off tha record, (Discussion off the record.) Mr. Widea. Could you tell us, starting from what you | Io had recently rented. Temamber as the warliest or the first discussions you had, ‘substance what massage jDr. Gottlisb (brought you and tha be > ensuing conversation? ~ Mr. Hedgman. I¢ is my racollaction that he advised ma, or my instructions were, to eliminate Lumumba. Mr. Wides. By eliminate, do you mean agsassinata? Mr. Hadgman. Yas. 1 would say that was tha, that was ty understanding of the primary means. I don'¢ think Lt wag Probably limited to that, if there was some other way of doing TOP SECRET
Maus? 216 Perse Stemet, S.C. Brasmingion, DC. 20063 Pry + (Aree 707) 444-4000 “~ 1 WARD a “ 6 r 8 9 10 1] 12 a) 14 15 Wides. of doing what? Hedgman. Of removing him from a position of political Mr. Wides. Was thers realistically any way in which he was not a threat as long as he ramained alive in the Congo? Mr. Hadgman. Oh, yes. I think if he had been arrested @ something like that by the’ Congolese officials, in my own mind, that would have been, would have achieved it. “~? Mr. Wides. And what did Mr. Gottlieb indicate with reqard to the possibility of Physically eliminating him? Mr. Hedgman. It was my undarstanding that that was Probably expected of ma. Mr. Wideas. Yes. And what did he tell you with ragard to how that might be 16 Haccomplishad? 1? Mr. Hedgman. Well, I think he ~- certainly, 48 you are lay 4Ware, ha brought some blological agents. 1 assume thet that's 19 26 2] | | i the correct word. But in any case, Poisonous agents with him, ‘which ha passed to me. As I recall, he brought them with him. That's not ev || absolutely certain, but quite probable, in my opinion, that he oe: 24 | had hand~carried them, Mr. Hedgman. Yes. That was my understanding, as a4 ! Mr. Baron. These were lethal biological substances? TOP SECRET
Bmore Taree 207} $44-4008 “Wadd o Pru’ SEO Perse Sroeet. 2.8. Mash ngiom, B.C. SO005 7 | TOP SECRET nONn-expart. However, in thinking it over, I believe that 1 -- there was -~ this was not 4 sine qua non that 1 amploy. this. Tf thers ware another method, another way, 1¢ would have been acceptable. It was also my recollaction, lat me just try and think for & moment hare -- I can't remembar where I was going. I had a point I wanted to maka. Well, Lf 1t comas back, I will think of it. Mr. Dawson. Would it help you to have her read back that portion where you ware just testifying? Mr. Hadgman. I don't think 8a, Anyway, the biological substance, or apecimens, what have you, I think it was up to my judgmant, and if there Ware a better way ~- certainly, the point I now recall was in no way, if f implemented these instructions, no way could it be traced back to the United States. It had to be @ way which could not be traced back to the Unitad States, either to. an Amarican or the United States government. Mr. Wides. With regard to the Materials, you said it is ‘your best recollection that he brought them with him? Mr. Wedgman. I bulieve ha did. Mr. Wides. Yes. Do you recall having a discussion with him about the materials as to how to use them and what traces they would leave and the lika? TOP SECRET
; Biwi en TOP SECRET Me. Hedgman. I Fecollact discussing uses of them, Mr. Wides. Do You recall having tha ~- were there also, 5 1 in addition to the lethal agents themselves, related Paraphenali | Prone {Ares 202} 444-6000 4 jj such a3 a mask, or gloves, or a syringe? 5 | HNedgman. It ia my best recollection there were rubber 6 mask and « syringe, Wides. [Ig it your recollection that these 4id not 4 a | arrive befora Mr. Gottlieb camaj that is, you did not have 9 |Materiala arriving at the Station and yourself wondering what | - 16 | they Were a1] about prior to Mr. Gottllab‘'s arrival? i 1 ! Mr. Nedgman. That is corract. I do not believe they { _— . - 12 | came prior to'Mr,. Gettlieb's iarrival, + ~ wr 1A | Mr. Wides. Do you recall while you ware discusaing this | 14 Hf with him that you had in front of YOu some of the paraphenalia x Baus é & ‘6 « £ cm) 15 [@uch as the syringe, or the mask, or the gloves, that they 16 ! were there with you? Mr. Hedgman. I believe we did, Mr. Wides. And he was there for Only ona night? Me. Hedgman. That's my recollection, but that fa far \ Mr. Wides. Or one or two nights? Me. Hedgman. Yas. It's far from ~~ ¥ =~ that's my recollection, but I would not wish to affirm that. Mr. Wides. So either he brought them with him or thay 420 Frat Streee, $.C_ watncmgion, 6.0, 20003 would hava had to arrivyg essentially simultaneously with his TOP SECRET
* 41D Fost Seeees, $.2. Wepminetor, OF rong F Prone {Ares 202) 444-4000 ~ ‘ Pm a q € ad 4 ’ 7 visit in order for you and him to have had them essentially with you while he was discussing: them, ia that right? Mr. Hadgman. Yas, I beliava, as :¥ stated, that he brought them with him or -- Mr. Wides. Or if they, if he dia not, that they would have arrivad while he was there? In other words, are you more certain that they were thare at the time you had the discussiona with him‘-- Mr. Hedgmen. Yas. Mr. Wides. -- than you are that he brought them, even though it {fs your bast baliuf that he did? Mr. Hadgman. I balieve he brought them, Mr. Dawson. Do you recall his giving you any instructions On thelr handling, tha reason that you had rubber gJlovas? Mr. Hedgman. Yes. I recollect that I told him that x didn't know anything abovt the handling of such things. Mr. Dawson. And do you recall what ha told You about Mr. Hedgman. No, I don't really. Mr. Dawson. Did he say to you that in order to handle this substenca you had to hava the rubber gloves on? Mr. Hedgman. That's an assumption I have made ag a resul @¢ my recollection that there were rubber gloves. But I cannot 24 be sure, 25 Me. Wides. Let me go back to the statement that you made TOP SECRET x
Prone {Aste 207) 4464-4008 “2 3 a  h 4a c) ee Sta 20 | | { #2] | : ! that there was more than one agent. Do you racall definitely that there was more than one? Mr. Hedgman. That ds my Facollection, yes, sir, Mr. Wides. Now, do you me@an by that there was More than One dosaga, or more than One vial or pill of the same kind of lethal agent, or that there were several different kinda? Mr. Hedgman. I balieve there ware two or mors lethal agants, types of lethal agents, Mr. Widaa. Do you recall him mentioning the word otullam at all? poes that ring a bell? Mr. Nedgman. I Cannot be certain of that. Mr. Wides. Do YOu recall -- Mr. Hedgman. I think that it is possible, but z Cannot @ Certain. Mr. Wides.— Does it ring some sort of a bell? Mr. Hedgman. Dotulism rings a bell, but x am not -- know what it is, therefore it is, there is an Aqatha Christe murder mystery based on it, or something like that. Mr. Wides. Do YOU Fecail whather soma of them Ware poisons in the nature of cyanide and the lika, or whather they wets 411 represented to ba biological agents; that igs, a virus ora deadly garm of soma sort? Mr. Hadqman. tT ballava they ware biological agants. Mr. Widas. No you recall Whether any were referred to as TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET Mr. Wides. Since there were differant types, I would - Prone (Aves 707) 344-4000 | may have bean. a or assumes that there was soma discussion as to why you | nigne use One or the other in tha first attempt? Mr. Hedgman. I balieve -- Mr, Widus. What can you recall of that? Mr. Wadgman. I bpaliave that I asked or raisad the point, and again, I cannot confirm this with absoluta certainty, but -10 | IT believe I raised the point that poisons left traces in the Mr. Hedgman. No, © do not, air. I don't know. There 7 human body, which could be found on autopsy, and that I believe that. I was assured that these agents, I'm qoing to refer to tham as that because I don't know the correct term, terminology -- @O & Faw, Mr. Wides. Lethal, thesa area lethal agants? Swe a Mr. Hedgman. Lethal agents, would be normal traces found in peoplu that dia of cartain diseases. ‘| ' Mr. Wides. And this would have been with regard to all : of them or only ona of them? Mr. fladgman. That's why I hesitated on the botulism, | because that would fit, of couraa. | Mr. Wides. Was this assurance givan in radard to all of them, or ona in particular? Mr. Hedgman. T cannot be absolutely cartain of that. STO Forest Stowet, S.C. Ben eton, D.C. POOGE believe all of them, but I -- Mr. Wides. Well, wouldn't you have asked which ene you TOP SECRET 4
should usa, or whether there was any different among them in 2 ' terms of preferance from thea point of view of affectiveness or 5 | @48e@ of use, or would you have just bean laft essentlally closin Prone (Aree 7071 $46-4000 4 | YOur eyes and picking one? Wouldn't you have had some discus- 5 | sion? 6 | Mr. Hedgman. I would think so. But I cannot -- don't | believe T can pin this down. & Mx, Wides. Do you recall any discussion with Jor, Gottlieb}, 9 | 48 to differancas in the method of administration. preferrad lo 7 ®ethod of administration? in| One of them in Possibly teothpastse which would bs used, a WARD a aus vy Ve Mr. Wides. How would that he accomplished, with a ~ re || syringe, or == { ~~ 15 Mr. Hedgman. 1 don't remember. I think so. 16 Mr. Wides. Po you recall specifically that three was a wy | syringe a8 part of the equipment? le | Mr. Hedqman. I believe there was, but I sure wouldn't 10 | Stake my life on it. But if I said I helieve thera was a a oy fe Syringe, that’s my ‘racollection. I , : 11 Mr. Nedgman. I remamber there was a reference to ©3903 2) ! Mr. Wides. Now, just to go back for a moment, you said pp || before that he said that your instructions ware if POssibla to 2 o« || eliminate Lumumba, and that you thought that one possible way 24 | oF the way he wag particularly addrassing was in the sense of ALG Peett Stroet, $.0.. Wamingion, OF 25 assassination? TOP SECRET
Prone (Arte 202) 444-4009 Paue . WParha 8 TOP SECRET Mr. Nadgman. That's corract,. Mr. Wides. I take it that once you started discussing these lethal agents, thera was no doubt in your mind that the ; kind of elimination he waa there particularly to discuss was killing Lumumba? 6 Mr. Hadgman. Thare was no doubt in my mind that this was 7 One of the way, and probably what thay thought was the Only way 8 4 that would work. But as the Chief of Station, I still, even 9 though a junior Chief of Station, fT had a cartain amount of 10 || freedom of choica, I felt, at the time, , ee] In other words, Particularly since tha emphasis was that «| 4t could not be traced back to tha U.S. government or the 13 | United States. 14 Mr. Widea. Pid you see -- 1s I’m sorry. 16 Mr. Baron. The purposw of designing a lethal aqant that 1 | left the traces of a normal disease rather than a polason was tal exactly that, wasn't it? 19 Mr. Hladqman. Yes, I would agsume ao. 20 i Mr. Baron. To avoid -- Mr. Hedgman. It seems to me that. was ons of the points op | that came out. Mr. Baron. To avoid attribution to the United States? Mr. Hedgman. To avoid attribution, really, Mr. Wides. Did you sea any of the paraphenalia, do you TOP SECRET
recall, that is apart from just & package that was never opéned, did you aver at that time, did you ma a mask or glovas? Mr. Hadgman. It ig my racollaction that I did, but r Prone {Aves 202) 4444000 cannot be absolutely Cartain of that. Mr. Daron. Was this a Surgical gauze mask? Mr. Hadgman. It is my recollection, Ihave that recollac- tion, and yet I could not =~ I am being asked to swear to this, 8 | Of course, and I swear that it is my racollection. 9 Mr. Wides. Do you recall that the materials were in liqul 10 | torm, in a vial or bottle, or -- Mr. Hedgman. I do not racall, sir, + li 12 | Mr. Widas. Dut I assume, if your best recollection is | ad lz | there was discussion of a Syringe, ‘that presumably it was in | liquid form? 3 d @ a Mr. Hedgman. I would assume BO. Mr. Wides, Or something that: would ba turned into a i Liquid. | Mr. Hedgman. I would assume so, but I honestly cannot teil you what form they were in. ; | i Mr, Wides. -And your best recollection was thera were two Or three or more? Mr. Hodgman. Yes, two or three. Mr. Widus. bia for. Gottlieb indiéate to you, was there any reference to the prior use or attemptad use of these agents 416 Fast Steeet, $.0., Waunngtan, DO 20003 for the sams purpose of assassination, to his knowledge, by the TOP SECRET
Prone [Ares 207) 344-4006 % RO & PAWS o “Wa 410 Font Siceer. $f, Wawuengion Of. song} 10 1} + ae 1% 14 TOP|SECRET Hedgman. To my recollection, he did not refer to any past uge or knowledge of such, Mr. Wides. Did he Yafer to any Prospective or possible use elsewhere in thea world? Mr. Headgman. Not to my recollection, I don't helieve he It would not hava been normal for him to dlacuga that with Mr. Wides. Do you recall, by any chance, the name of Castro coming up in the course of thia? Mr. Hadgman. Almost certainly tt dia noé. Mr. Wides. Now, with regard to tha possibility of other Means, first with regard to the possibility of other Means of killing Lumumba, did you diacuss with him any othar ways of arranging Lumumba 'g death other than using these lethal agents, such ag Shooting, or =«- Mr. Hedgman., I think I may well have suggested that as 4 possibility, shooting. , , Mr. Wides. Did you discuss with him specific ethar ways of trying to @liminats him as 4 Political threat, that might have been an alternative option for you? Mr. Hedgman. Would You rephrase that question, or repeat. 1 ‘ Wides. YOu said'that your understanding TOP SECRET
PRene [Aves 202) 344-4009 ~ ° ny PAR & Paws 410 Far Stem. $8. Washingon BC 20003 TOP SECRET your instructions ware to aliminate Lumumba, and that one way of doing this, which was discussed in concrata form, 4nd which 5 you were givan the means for, was killing him or arranging hig 4 | death, but that that was only one possibility, Did/ you discuss, in fact, with lor, Gottliebiany Other ways _ _ of eliminating Lumumba, non-lethal ways? 5 | | ? | Mr. jMadgman, f may well -- non-lethal ways? 8 | Mr. Widea, Yas. 9 Mr. Hedgman. I cannot recall with Certainty on that, Tt 10 Vis my Fecollection that he was, either was or waa very shortly 11 oi thereafter under the protection of tha United Nationa in the | atime Minister's combination residence and offica. Cartainly 13 | ne Was there after lq September. 14 Mr. Baron. Just to Clarify this, the Means of ~~ is - Mr. Hedgman. 1960, 16 Let him finish the anawer. I don't know 1£ that is fully responsive. 18 | What is your bast recollection as to whether you did 19 | did not discuss any othar way of eliminating Lumumba other . . 20 tl assassination? 1 #} Mr. Wedgman. I Cannot give you a5surance. [F have 22 4 tried to go |back in my mind on that, 24 Mr. Widses. You can't recall ene Way or the other? 24 Mr. Hedgman. I cannot Tecall ona way or the other for 25} Certainty. I know that it -- Somewhere along the line in there, TOP SECRET
rene {Rees 207} 944-4000 wan a aus ' 210 Feat Streed, $.£., Werungron, OC 20603 TOP SECRET I thought of shooting aa a possibility, but whether I discussed - . it with Dr. Gottlieb, I am not sura, Mr. Wides. Well, I understand that is a possibility that. you discussed other means of arranging his death, or you may have discussed other means of arranging his death -- Mr. Hadgman. tf may have. Mr. Widea. -~ than use of aqents, but earlier You #aid  j you considered your instruction to be aliminating him, and cnae | One possibility was through his death, but there wete other | possibilities. And I am asking you now whether you recall | discussing any non-lethal ways to eliminate him as @ political threat with jor. CotelLen/ in connection with your instructions? Mr. Iledgman. I cannot be cartain that I did, air, There obviously was thea possibility that his Congolese Politica thair, under their control, in which case ha would have been neutralized. Mr. Wides, But in regard to your instructions to do what you could to eliminate the threat, with regard to action that “YOu would take as the Station Chief, Tt taka it all you discug- | enemies would gain control of him in some manner, get him in | I sad with Dr. Gettlisb ware maans of arranging his death from th point of view of what yOu could do? Mr. Wedgman. I cannot affirm that. Mr. Wides. But you don't recall discussing anything ide TOP SECRET
Prone (Aree 202) $44-4008 a 3 @ a a 3 = @ é ~ 410 Ferg: Street, $.£., Wasmeneros, GC, S000} Mr. Hedgman. No. 2 Mr. Wides. Now, what was your first reaction when /or. "y aaa ee f 3 Gottliab,; when it first: became clear to you what jDr. Gottlieb/ was discussing with you in ragard to -- off the record. {Placussion off the record.) Mr. Wildes. Back on tha racord. What was that last quastion? (The Reporter raad back thea last question.) 19 Mr. Wides. -- afforts to kill Patrice Lumumba? 1 Mr. liedgman. I would say great surprise. If don't know { a jwhethar shock would be the word. It's a little hard to recollect | one's emotions, but it was an emotional, an amotional reaction, I think. Mr. Wides. Did you raise with him the queation of authorization of such instructions to you? Mr. Hadgman. Yes, I did. That's my quite strong recol- jlection, that 1 did. Mr. Wides. What do you recall in essence was what you | pata to him? \ Mr. Hedgman. In assance, IT think I must have, and again this is, I am guessing as to what my wording was, must. have pointed out that this was not a common or usual Aqancy tactic, ' and I may have probably said that I naver heard of {t helng done, which I tad not, never in my training or pravious work TOP SECRET.
AEG Fennt Stree, gt. Prgne {hroe 707} 5482000 rhe * 4 i] z 4 nd mashongior, DC. 20003 TOP SECRET the Agency had I aver heard any references to such, in my, recollection at least, such methods. And it is my recollection 1 asked on whose authority theae instructions were issusd. Mr. Wides. And what did Mr. Gottiiab reply? Mr. Hadgman. It is my recoilaction that he identifiad the Prasidant, and 1 cannot -~ the President of the United Statas ~~ and I cannot recall whether he said “the President.” or whether he idantified him by nama. Mr. Wides. But it is your best recollection that hea said somathing more specific than highest authority, that is, the President, or the White House, or President Eisenhower? Mr. Hedgman. I want to qet this ona right, because TI realize it'a important. Mr. Wides. Let's atart, excused Mmé, let’s start with the most basic question. Ie it your recollection that he cleariy told you it was an authority higher then tha Director of the CIA? Mr. Hadgman. I’m not sure that ha put it that way. As i asid, 1 balieva ~~ 4c. Wides. But T don’t mean that he used those words, but is it clear -~ Mr. Hedgman. That was my understanding, that Lt -- Mr. Wides. That is was higher than the niractor? Mr. Hledgman. Yes. Mr. Widas. Can you recall whether he gaid “the Prasident” TOP SECRET
Sle Meg TOP SECRET or “Prasident Eisenhower?” Mr. Hedgqman. I cannot recall whether he just said, whathe he said “the Prasident” or whether he said “president Eisenhow~ Amana {Arte 707) Ab 4000 er.” Mr. Wides. But it was one of those twor is your best recollection? Mr. Hedgman. I would say almost certainly, but not ~ in other words, I am at ahout the second Level of affirmation here. Mr. Wides. If not that specific ~- Me. Hedgman. It was my understanding it was the President, Yas. Mr. Widea. And did he also, apart from what you would ~~ - RO ® Cau have inferred would be impiied by that, did he also 84y in any “da of the Agency? Mr. lledgman. J have tried to go back in my mind on that, i} i | way something that veferrad to tt being approved by the Director | and 1 think, = believer but again now, this one, it's pratty loose in my mind -~- it was something to the effect that the | president had instructed the plrector. | Mr. Wides. Your underatanding than was that theses wmarneior © C FHOOF ; instructions were instructions coming to you from the office a of the President? . Mr. Hedgman. That's correct. 210 Tort Servet, > ce. Mr. Wides. Or that he had instructed the Agancy, and they TOP SECRET 1
’wamD o oben ALG rest Street, S.E., Prewemgion. GB.¢€. 2000) Prone (Abas TOT) 344-4000 ware passed on to you? Mr. Hedgman. That's right. Mr. Dawgon. You are not the least unclear wheather oF not you cama aware with 4 vary clear impression that the prasi- dent's name had bean invoked in some fashion? Mr. Hedgman. Yes. I cama ~~ certainly that ia my | recollection. Mr. Dawson. You have no doubt about that? Mr. Wides. At the time? Mr. Hudgman. At the time I certainly falt that I was under instructions from the President, yes. Mr. Wides. Ali right. Mr. Dawson. You were less certain as to whether or not the Director of Central Intelligence's name was invoked as authority? Mr. Hedgman. Bacause the other one seemed higher, and -- Mc. Dawson. Okay- Mr. Hedgman. And I think in my own mind | could not imagine the Agency taking such action without clearing it with Mr, Wides. Do you recall asking somathing to the effect. | i: | the President. of where did this brilliant idsa come from, or who had such 4 lrilliant idsa? { { Mr. liedqman. 1 think I made a commant like that yesterday, but I am not sure those ware my words at all. 1 thin TOP SECRET es Fass
orang [Aree 193) 44-4008 wata b PAUL RE. Wemseron, S € 20o0 #1C Foost Srreet, ra RET I was ~- I was being a bit facetious in that sense yesterday when I said that, but, I mean, I think I aaked why, who. Mr. Wides. And your best recollection then ia ha said | ettect, the President, that is, he said either the President | President Eisenhower has instructed or told the Director that I ents is what is wanted? | Mr. Hedgman. I think he said told the Director. Thia is | i mean, after all, tha Prasident would not pick up the phone and diar jor. Gottlieb/ and say, hey, I've got a little job for 7 you. " Mr. Dawson. Though it may be an assumption on your zl pare -- 13 | Mr. Hedgman. Thac'a right. I am -~ és. 14 Mr.’ Dawson. But you are clear as far as the Prasident 15 |} has told you to do this? 1é Mr. Hedgman. Gentlemen, after fifteen years f cannot be 1? 100 parcent certain, but I hava always, since that date, had the impression in my mind that these orders had come foom the Preaident. Mr, Wides. And your impression, your racollection is at. ‘ : that tima, after your discussion with [Dr. Gottileb, that you then, . a — \ at that time, had the very clear impression that thease were instructions from the Prasident? Me. Baron. In your mind, is it more likely that Gottlieb | Me. Wadgman. Yes, sir. | a ij TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET usad the words “the Prasidant* or “President Eisenhower” than o y it is that he used soma suphemism? 3 [Is that correct? Prone {Ares 2071 $44-4.000 Mr. Nedgman. i balieve that is so. @ 5 Me. Widas. That is your bast recollection? 4 6 " Mr. Wides. With regard to what you understood your { | | Mr. Hedgman. That is my bast racollaction. | 5 & inetructions to be, is it a fair summary to say that your 9 instructions were to detarmine in what way you could use these 10 || agents, with the possibility that you might think of a batter ri || Way in your mind, but that if you could use thase agents to ; LP assassinate Lumumba in a way which would not implicate tha 2 | United States, that you were under inatructions to do 90? 14 | Mr. Hedgman. I would qualify that slightly. I would wa OD @ Faure ~ 15 qualify it in that in operaticona normally you never use greater 16 force or greater effort than is necassary to accomplish the purpose. TI would think, and I think I thought at the time, that 4f there were soma way that he could ba ramovad from a position , of powar and threat which we, most of us thought was a threat | (ete the United States by him, that that. would have bean satis~ | 1 | | i zu | | | factory. | | 2x | #3 Howaver, it was clear that peonle were thinking in terms os | of his physical removal by the equipment Tt waa givan, tha agents, the lethal agants which were given to me. 24 L1G Fars Steeet, $.£., Voawrengton. & C- foo08 Mr. Wides. Waell, ware you not impressed with tha fact TOP SECRET 25
TOP SECRET that somaone in the Agency had literally arrived at your door- | -step with lethal means and indicated that the Prasident had inatructed the Agency to diract Lumumba's removal, and that it Prone (Aven 2073 $44-4000 [| was in that connection that he was arriving with these lethal Meand? Mr. fladgman. Oh, yes. Mr. Wides. Well, I take it -~ Me. Hedgman. This was not a common occurrence. Mr. Widesa. I take it you thought you had authority to use them, and that had you done so the next day, or vary shortly thareaaftearwarda, that that was clearly within tha authority that -- wall, off the racord. Pht | o ao ee {Discussion off the rycord.} Mr. Wides. Subsequent to your discussion with pr. bea Gottlieb, did you seek confirmation of the instructions that a he had given you by further communications with the Agency? Mr. tledgmar. In my recollection that I sant 4 message, whether I identified Gottlien toy name or not, I do not. recall, but that 1 asked for soma form of confirmation that he was the CONG 3 le proper messenger and that his instructions were -~ Mr. Widus. Correct? Mr. Hedqman. Were correct. Mr. Wides. bid you receiva a response to that mesgage? Mr. Hedgman. I <> before T continua, TF would say that 250 Fist Steret, $.€.. emengron. o¢ is the best of my rucolisction that I sent guch a masgaqe. TOP SECRET
wrens (Bes POT) 946-4000 £30 Feest Stoowt, $.C., Brarminatan. OC Mr. Wides. Yas. Wall, excuse Mme, did you -- Mr. Hedgman. I cannot, I cannot affirm absolutely and positively, but I have 4 recollaction that I sent such a massage. Mr. Wides. fo you have a fairly strong recollection that - after speaking to IGottlieb,| because it involved such a momentous : ee issue, that you felt in nead of some further guidance or confirmation? Mr. iledgman. Yes. I waa worried about it. Mr. Wides. And the most likely course for you to hava takan would have bean to seek confirmation hy cable? IT take it you don't recall any request in 4 faca to face axchange with any Agancy person for confirmation? Mr. Hedgman, That's correct. There was no face to face, other than my discussions with /Dr. Gottlieb./ é Mr. Wides. And your recollection, although you are not certain, igs you sent a cable seeking confirmation? Mr. Hedgman. That's correct. Mr. Wides. Mo you have a recollection of receiving a _Tesponse to that? Mr. liedgman. Again, 4 recollsction, but I ballave I received a reply which I interpretted to Maan yes, that he was the messenger and his inatructions were, were lagal inatructions in the sense of baling ~- legal, of course, would not be @ correct -~ TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET Wides. Duly authorized? Mr. Hedgman. Duly authorized. Mr. Wides. Now, after you received them, at least after Prone [Ares 2021 444 6006 you receivad that confirmation, is it correct that you felt you | s || had the authority thenceforth to usé theses lethal agants to 6 || assassinate Lumumba and that had you done so any time thereafter i 7 {it would have bean within tha authority of your instructions? | t 8 Mr. Hedgman. 1 think so, but it is possible, and 1 cannot 9 I have thought about thie a good deal last night. Tt is possi- bie that the instructions may have baen that I was to explore thase where available, but I was to get final confirmation i | beforu -- I cannot ba 100 percent sure. Mr. Wides. Are you raising that as 4 possibility without RAR & PAUL | any recollection of that at all? Ts that what you are doing in regard to this last statement? Mr. Hedgman. Yos, I suppose that’s it. 1 don’t have a i. { firm recollection. | Mr. Wides. You don’t have any? + i Mr. Hledgman. I have tried to datarmine in my Own mind | bwnethar Ll had an absolute free hand at that time. i Mr. Wides. Well, let's take it one step at a time. Do you hava any recollection of any msasgaqde during a. -- | (Gott tteb' aj discusaton with you or thereafter in effact putting a {o~ - f hold, having a sore of a qo, no-go, hold on your use of the n G Tout Street, SL. Hasna Or, G.c, 20003 poisons? Do you have any recollection of that? TOP SECRET le 43
Ape Ryierore GN @ i Mr. Hedgman. I do not, but may X add thera, 5 a | I sent several messages about potential access. | i 3 Me. Widas. Yas. | } 4 Mr. Hedgman. Which makes me think -- 5 Mr. Baron. Potential access to Lumumba? 6 Me. Hedgman. Yas. which makes me think I waa perhaps 2 | supposed to clear it. Mr. Wides. Could thos also simply have been prograss 8 . 9 reports, aven if there waa no hold? -, j . 10 Me. Hedgman. That’s possible, yas. ; 1} Mr. Wides. And do you have a racollection, although not | @ ; 12 L, clear ona, that in fact you thought it was up to you at that : 4 a point and that you could go, if you thoudht the situation was “ | correct? _ 18 Mr. Hedgman. If 1 had to decide between these two enings.| i. 16 I think I probably thought I had dt, but I cannot absolutely | 1 confirm that, sir- } 18 Mr. Wides. I understand that, but you have some recollecs: . 19 tion that you thought you nad it, and you have no recollection og 8 thinking thera was a hold? You simply cannot. be, you are F 2} | not absolutely cartain that you thouaht you had 4 9° ahead, oy | is that a fair summary of your tastimony? | : : 24 Mr. Headgman. Yes, 1 think that would be correct. S oO: 24 Mr. Wides. Now, do you recall, and I am coming back to | ; 2 25 the mugsaqgea in a moment, do you recall somatima in the € TOP SECRET
beginning of October, when a iMr. Justin O'Donnall- arrived at the Station? Mr. Hedgman. I don't recall the time, but it waa perhaps, Puere [Ares 202) 454-4008 ;it would have bean about that time. Mr. Wides. Was it several weaks after, Or. Gottlieb" 3 arrival? TOP SECRET.” | | | Mr. Hedgman. I cannot put a timeframe within weeks on {t.j Mr. Wides. Was it clearly after Pr. Gottlieb? 10 Mr. Hedgman. Yase Mc. Wides. 1 believa you indicated to us in preliminary I would have guussed yes. 12 | discussions that you had somes intimation or anticipation that aur | hia arrival ~~ strike that. Am 1 correct that you had some knowladge he was going to wast & 15 arrive bafore he appeared; that is, by name you knew that he i6 || “88 coming to the Station before hs actually physically got 1 ) thera? 18 | Mr. Hedgman. Tf believe that is correct. 19 Mr. Wides. And I believe you indicated yesterday in preliminary discussions with us that in anticipating his arrival, you had some impression that ha was to aid in the removal or the elimination of Lumumba, is that corruct? Mr. Hedgman. tf don't baliave -~ I may have misstated 24 mepolf if 1 said that yeaterday. 1 think it was more when he 216 Coest Stemet, & L., wasmonetion, B.C 20003 arrived that [ was advised of that. TOP SECRET 25
Rages three POT} $44-4000 Waee & Phu” Fa ~ 7 ‘ peo? 110 Fert Sreoet fB E., Wasmemator, oc TOP SECRET Wides. I see. Mr. lladgman. There may have been a messages in that channel indicating that he was arriving, which would have made me think that he was related with it. I cannot be certain. | Mr. Wides. Do you recall indicating to us yesterday | that when he arrived initdally one thought you had was that parhaps you were going to be replaced as Station Chief, in your first job as Station Chief, because you had been draqging your fast, or not acting expaditiously enough on Lumumba? Mr. Hadgman. 1 recall saying that yesterday. ‘Mr. Wides. What is your recollaction today? Mr. UWadgman. Put it -- may 1 go off the record a moment? Mr. Wides. Yos. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. Wides. Let's go back on the record. 1G | Let me phrase the question this way, Me. Hedgmanz: when 1? ; Mr. O'Donnell arrived, I take it ag a somewhat junior Station lH | Chief, and in your first job as a Station Chief, that you iy considerad whether there was dissatisfaction with your handling Lo wot the job, or the need for more experianced personnel there, is that correct? Mr. Hadgman. I think that {s possibly true. Mr. Wides. Now, do you recall whether ona of the thoughts that went through your mind was that parhaps the 4 Headquarters was, tha Agency was dissatisfied with foot-draqaina TOP SECRET.
TOP ‘SECRET or the lack of action on your part in implementing }Or. Gottlieb’ instructions? Was that ona of the thoughts that went through your mind as ..far as you can racall? Prem {Aro 207) 544-4508 Mr. Hedgman. I cannot say that with certainty now. [t is very poaaible. Mr. Wides. Do you havea any recollection that that through your mind even if you can't be cartain? Mr. Hedgman. To repeat, that heo-- Mr. Wides. That you thought ~~ Mr. Hedgman. That I thought that they were diasatiafiad with my handling of that? Mr. Wides. Recause you had not yet eliminated Lumumba or taken further steps to do a0? Mr. Hedgman. I just can’t, Tf just would like to back off “a 3 # ‘he @ J if 4 2 that one because I cannot be certain. I knew that obviously they had sent & man who had much more experience than tT, and | yet it was clear that he was working - for ma, beacause { was “| not relievad as Chief of Station. They would never have gent ie there under me and then awitched the positions. i Ws Mr. Wides. Prior to his coming ~~ to return now to the GOO) period when you sent the confirmation, ‘request for confirmation r~- do you racall slugging it back through a particular channel? Lb. £, Rommeion, O.€ Mr. iedgman. There was some special channel, and t-- £10 Fest Se because it was handlad differantly than any other normal message. For example, it was not put on a regular cable form, TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET which, you know, you have saveral copies for your various files. And it was my recollection that I personally carried tha massage to the communicator to encrypt, and that was worded { ji a double-talk way that aven the communicator would not Brgns (Ares 2671 §46-4000 | Recansarily know what it was about. Mr. Wides. If your communication to tha Headquarters and + a thair communication back ware in somewhat ambiguous tarms, | particularly your question, such as ia the person, is this t i person the messenger, and are his instructions accurate, 4nd H if the reply was essentially yes to both quastions, how would that have assured you that his invacation of Presidential i authority was accurate, Or sven his invocation of the authority eh lof the Diractor was accurate without your indicating in your a a ‘¢ @ & cable in some way what the instructions were? Mr. Hedqman. I suppose that -~ I doubt that 1! would have tndicated in the cable the authority cited bucause of tha nature of the instructions. Perhaps I was much more naive then than many of us are now, but I assumed when I received instrucy | tions that they cama, thay were duly authorized inatructions. PO0G8 It was clear that the man ~~ I had receivad the massage that gomeone was going to contact ma with instructions, which oy || was moat unusual. I mean, why weren't thay sent in writing, 2h | in other words, by cable or by dispatch. And it arrived, and as it arrived, « man whom 1 recoqnized a3 an AGancy officer, and ALO Tent Steqet, SE . HEM, oe. 26, he gavd Me instructions. I went back through this vary spucia TOP SECRET
Prone (Area FOP} 44-4008 “waht & Prue r0003 CL Maney, OC £20 Faas Sreert, & gage Y TOP SECRET channle and said, you know, I don't remember how I worded ae it was a doubletalk thing, but I came away, I wae convinced that yes, it was right. , Now, there is no way I could know or be absolutely certain} if those instructions emanated from the Presidunt. but I, I took | this perhaps as an act of faith. Mr. Wides. 1 understand. When you wore discussing with [pr. Gottlieb; during his atay of a day, parhaps one or two days, what else can YOu racall was discusaed by tha two of you? Mr. Hedgman. I don’t have a recollection. I probably tT wanted to know about where my various friends were and what was ft happening and the sort of gossip that goss around. Mr. Bissell was witting of this particular miasion or instruc- tion? Mr. Hedgman. I cannot be certain of that. 1 think 1 would have assumed. Mr. Wides. Do you recall any discussion as to whether | | Mr. Widesa. Not baing certain, what is your bast recollac- as to whether his name cama up in ragard to the instructions? Mr. Hudgman. I have no recollection whether his nama up. Certainly I would have assumed that he would have involved, and it is antirely possible that his name didn't Mr. Wides. Do you recail any other names coming up besid | up. | | TOP SECRET
Pag @ [Aree 7075 444 6000 ’ - WARD & PAWL 250 Feeyt Street, $E., wawnngor, OK 70083 TOP SECRET thea reference to the White House and possibly the express refarance to thy Diractor, possibly? Mr. Hedgman, 1 don't believe 390. Mr. Wides. Do you recall Mr. Tweady's name coming upl Mc. Hadgman. No, I do not. But it is entirely possible that it did, in that he was my direct chisf. Mr. Wides. Po you recall any other aspects of the Giscussion, whether related to the mission oF not, in regard to | what his job was, what he was doing at that tima, your problems in the Congo, or Mr. Lumumba's particular threat? l be a very severa threat, serfous threat, I ahould gay, to ! Mr. Hedgman. I probably discussed with him what I saw to i u.sS. position in Africa. It was my belief that the Soviets ware | aking a major affort to secure 4 bridgehaad, to taka over one f of the two or three largest, and potentially richast countries in Africa. Mr. Wides. Do you recall anything regarding any diacussioh regarding access that you then had? Now, I am vatferring to your discussions with (oe. Gottlieb| in the way of agants you might : ‘use who might ba able to prevent. attribution to American and x | so forth? | | Mr. Hedgman. I have 4 recollection, I hava 4 recollection that I cited ons agent's name, OF perhaps not name, but | | described him as a person who would have accass. | Mr. Wides. To Lumumba directly? TOP SECRET
wenn n Fay “ Gmaqno gheas 7O7} 548-4006 warrengian, O.C 0007 B10 Fege Srooet. & Ew TOP SECRET Mr. Hedgman. To probably have accasa to ~~ certainly would have access to Lumumba, and might be able to use guch agents. Mc. Wides. Was there any discussion of instructing this agent how one would go about instructing the agent to use the lethal agenta butween yourself and Dr. Gottlieb? 9 Mr. Hedgman. Probably, but ft cannot. be sure of that, 8 because I would ~~ I know I did not know how to uss them, 8o 9 I must have asked how to use them. 10 Mr. Widas. Do you racall subsequent to your ~~ let me 41 4 g° beck. ' 12 i How would you characterize, or £€ you can ramember the n ys || substance of what you said, what was your response to Mr .ct 14 y, Gottlieb having been given these instructions, having been take ivy 15 || somewhat aback, according to your testimony, having asked about ve authority and having been assured that. it came from the White we an House, what was the essence of the responses that you gave [or - | { 1 | Mr. Hedgman. If think that it was that tY would explore, lt | (Gotelten{ that he would have brought back to Headquarters himself? ane again I-am saying I think, that 1 would explora this. Mr. Widss. Did you give him any indication that you would y out the inatructions? Mr. Hedgman. No, 1 don't believe I said that. Rut ! believe I pointed out that it was 77 it would be axtremoely difficult to carry out these instructions, meeting the eritaria TOP SECRET
pngne {A208 202) 944-6508 é > “a a a £ 4 5 70003 210 Fone Stewet, SE. Manngion, OC TOP SECRET that we could no way be traced back to the United Statas. Mr. Wides. Would it be 4 fair summary that he left the meating -~ well, you can't testify for him -- that it would have bean reasonable for him to laave the meeting with the impression that you would, if possible, carry out those instructions? Mr. Hedgman. % couldn't speculate as to whether he thought I would or not. Mr. Wides. fut would that hava besn 4 fair impression for him to taka away from your comments? Mc. Hedgman, I think it would be a fair impression that he would take away the thought that. I was goind to look into it and try and figure 4€ thera was a way, but J] do remamber ~-- 2 shouldn't say remember —~ I beliave I stressed the difficulty of trying to carry out such an operation. Mr. Wides. But since he had given you inatructions that the President wanted this, would it have been fair for him to | carry away from your conversation the understanding that if po thought it could be dona, if you found a wayr that it would Venn go forward, you would then go forward? Mr. Hedgman. Yas. As I said earlier, I cannot be certain that To =~ that have gone away with the idea that IT would immediately or that I would suek further authorization. Mr. Wides. Now, subsequent to the sanding of the requofst TOP SECRET
- oa 210 Frerd Srewet, $ L.. Prasmenatan, o¢ waRe a prone jAres 207) 948-5000 Phus 003 ~ 19 11 13 14 1S 16 TOP SECRET for confirmation, and the receipt of tha cable which you have a recollection ef, both confirming tha instructions, what further staps did you take in the Congo, and what further communications did you have with Headquarters regarding the mission? Lat's take that one step at « time. What further steps did you take prior to Mr. O'Donnel) | coming? Mr. Hedgman. I beliave that I queried the agent who had | ' t access to Lumumba, and hia entourage. in detail about just wnat | that access, what access he actually had, a8 opposad to speaking] to people. In othur words, did he have access to the pathroon, | did he have access to the kitchen, things of that aort. I have a recollection of having queried him on that atnout specifying why I wanted to know this. Mr. Wides. Pid you take any other steps to find out the 1 | pattern of Patrice Lumumba's activities as they might relate to attempting to put theses lethal agents into food or toothpaste? Mr, Hedgman. That's what I, in sasance, I think what ¢ ‘was doing there was ~~ but without specifying why. Mr, Wides. pid you recall any other steps? What did you do with the materials themselves? Mr. Hedgman. Ase I recall, I placed them in the bottom drawer of my safa, to which I had access. mr. .Wides. No one else had the combination, OF did anyont TOP SECRET Sree eeeHEEEEREEET ts
. WARD ® PAUL pane (Aras 207} $46-4006 OOG3 Ab Cernt Sreset, SL. Messmer atom, ina else have the combination to the safe? Mr. Hedgman. Yee, I believe my secratary had the combination. Mr. Baron. Did you discuss this with your secretary? Mr. Hedgman. I most cartainly did not. Mr. Wides. Was she in the habit of occasionally opening | the safe rather than yoursalf?— | Mr. Hedgman. Yas. Mr. Wides. What would have happened, or what did you anticipate would happen, ££ she had opened the safe and seen these packages? i Hl { | or sealed in an anvelope or paper marked probably -- I put that, Mr. Hudgman. Well, 1 believe they wera probably wrapped land this is again probably ~~ Fyes Only, so for myself ! i Mr. Wides. You didn't feel it necessary to indicate to j her that there werd somes packages here and 1 don't want you to hopen them or to look at them? Mr. Hedqman. If I sualed it and put Fyes Only on it, she would not have. Mr. Wides. Nid you sand subsequent cables back or have further communication with Headquarters after the request for confirmation? Mr. itadgman. Yous. It is my recollection I sant several, two or thrae, aomething like that. Mr. Wides. What was the substance of each of those? TOP SECRET | |
TOP SECRET Hedgman. I cannot give you the substance, I beliave in the nature of progress reports. Mr. Wides. With regard to your finding an access? smmng {Aras 207} 944-4000 Mr. lladgman. Yes. Mr. after the first one indicating the affirmation? | Mr. Hadgman. I believe there was. if ft had to bet money on this ons, I would say, I would bat on tha fact that there was at least one or two mora back to ma. Mr. Wides. What is your best recollection 49 to'the nature of those? Mr. Hedgman. I don't really hava 4 racollection. recall. that there was ons Mota, than one cable, more than wAGD & Baur” two cables, the one saying that there is the man coming, and there was the one which I recall aaying yes, that’s right. and you are to follow out his instructions or his instructions | are duly issued or something to the effect. And I believe there was ona, one or two Other cables, but 1 don't have a recollection of their contents. Probably querying for further explanation, o008 I-but I cannot confirm that. Mr. Wides. Let me ask you the following question: you ma if I am wrong, but I have a racollection that you at the time 210 T egt Soeeer, SL. Mawn-nator, oc thought you had the authority to go ahead with the use of the have indicated that, tf believe you have testified, and correct | lathal agents if you thought it could be done within the guidelines TOP SECRET
Pagne free TO7) $446-2000 fon Pau wa 410 #92 Street, SE, Hrasrematon, D.¢. rOORs TOP SECRET given you. You have raised the possibility, although you have no recollection, that thare might hava baan 4 hold and a need for further approval. { i Is it fair to say that you understood that this was well t Thay ond the exploratory atage 48 4 concaivable option that the U.5/ | nisne take, and that you understood ‘that from the highest j authority, that is the President, thera were instructions | to carry out the assassination of Lumumba if it could be dona I without attribution, but that Headquarters might have expected ll some indication from you of how you ware going to do it prior I eo the actual implementation? Is that 4 fair summary of what {you are talling us? Mr. Hadgqman. Will you repeat that? Could sha -- i Mr. Wides. That you had received instructions from the | nignest authority, that is thea President, down through’ the Agancy. r that is possible, becauss of their concern about Mr. Lumumba to use lethal agents to assassinate him, but that you might have, I you had recaived the authority to do that, and there was 4 | | direction to do it if possible, but that you might have sent nae %s , to Headquarters, in guarded language, an indication of how you | be done in a feasible way bafore going ahaad with it. is that a fair summary? Mr. Hedgman. I think probably that I would havea gona hack and advised that I intended to carry out and sought final | 4 | were qoing to go about it, or that you had decided that it | al | : i ' ! TOP SECRET
Prone (Aes 207) 964-6000 Pewn “pando 810 Forat Steowt, $.£., wasnengar. OC OF 0} TOP SECRET approval before carrying it out had I been going to do it, had there bean a way to do it. I did not see it a8 a practical, 48 a matter which could be accomplished practically, certainly. Mr. Baron. As far as you Were concerned, the policy hascision had been made at Headquarters and in tha White House . || to assassinate Lumumba, and tha questions that ramained wars i operational questions, is that correct? | Mr. HNedgman. It is now my racollection, some fifteen years later -- and again I stress fifteen years ~~ that I | thought the policy dacision had been mada in the White House, not in the Agency, and that the Agency had been selactad 48 4 i i tha Executive Agent, if you will, to carry out a political | decision. | Mr. Baron. And any further communication -- Mr. Wides. Excuse me, please. | And the political decision was if possible he | eliminated? Mr. Hedgman. Ags a threat. Mr. Wides. As a threat. Mr. Hedgman. Assassination being one means, Me, Wides. That had been approved? Mr. Hadgqman. Of achieving -- 1 felt at the tima <-- Mr, Wides. As a policy matter? Mr, Hedgman. Yes. Tf thought at the time, yes, that it hed been approved. That ig my racollaction, yes. TOP SECRET AUER SEIS 5 ‘ 6 H { : i]
TOP SECRET fr. Baron. So any further communications that you would have had, as you mentioned a moment ago, to seak approval from Headquarters would have been approval for the specific operatio rons {Ares 707) $446000 modes that you would usa to carry out the program? Mr. Hedgman. I think that’s probably the case, sir. Mr. Wides. And is it correct you 4ré indicating in that regard your estimation now of what your ‘likely course of action would have been in terms of how you would have proceeded, givan your situation there, de that correct? Mr. Headgman. I don't understand, sir. Mr. Wides. In terms of checking -- well, you indicated Pave ahead? Mr. Hedgman. Yes. Nese a 0 © s Mr. Wides. Is it correct to say that that is your astimation now of how you would have decided to proceed, but { you think now you probably would hava checked back hefora going | that is not necassarily your instruction that you had to check | | that, because I think you indicated before you had no recol-~ plection that you felt your instructions ware to check hack before I-going ahead? | Mc. Hodgman. I am not. sura that. I said that. I don't know for sure that I had an absolute freadom. Mr. Wides. I understand. Rut you gaid before, if IT am £YO Feat Steeet, S.£., Wowmrema as. BC FOOO! correct, that you had no recollection of a raquirament to go back? TOP SECRET
prone 120s 207) 4244608 x £70 Test Street, SL Wang on, O.c. reged 1 Mr. Hedgman. There is a difference between ‘not having & 2 | reacollaction and being sure. 3 Mr. Wides. JI understand. And you said that you did have 4 a recollection, although you aran't cartain, that you felt... 5 | ‘ree to go ahead, whatever you might have done in terms of 6 i your personal decision of how. to proceed? a] 2 | Mr. Wedgman. IT think I aaid that I thought the policy 8 lidacision had been made at the political level and that the Agency 9 had been inatructad to neutralizes, to remove from position of 10 | power or whatever position of threat, Lumumba -- T am not 1] fancing with you. 12 Mr. Wides. No, I understand. 13 with regard to ‘Mr. O'Donneli’s arrival, what did he 14 # indicate to you was nia mission whan he arrived? 15 Mr. Hadgman. I understood it to he that ~~ similar to vel mine, that ia the removal or neutralization of Lumumba. IT am 17 if not sure what wording ha would have used. i Lek Mc. Wides. Pid he discuss 4% th you the possibility of 19 | assassinating Lumumba ? I Mr. Hadgman. I can ~~ I have no clear recollaction of pe) jj nas discussing the assasaination. I know that ~~ I have a ow fairly good recollection that he was there for the cemoval of 2% i Lumumba, Whether tha word assassination, whether the word -- Mr. Wides. Do you hava any rucollaction of discussing yoo TOP SECRET _ _ 25 with Justin O'Nonnell the practicaility and the morality saneraily po |
Sanne (Arne TOT) S446-4008 wane fh Pause y APC Focat Steoer, $C. Waemengrar, Nc 20003 2 > 4 ) 6 ? & 9 of assassination as an Agency activity? Mr. Hedgqman. Certainly, and in discuss with As an Agancy activity, 7 am not sure. that specific case f believe that I did him the practical problems involved in carrying out such an operation. Mr. Wides. Such an operation being the assassination of 8 political figure? Mr. jiedgman. Yoe- assassination or any other removal from power, because we did not have the ~~ Mr. Wides. I am not sure if your testimony is you do recall discussing. — ustin O'Don him? | | of nis indicatin | Mr. Hadgman. among other things, assassination with nell or that you don't recall diacussing it with I cannot affirm that Y diacuased this, but Y assumes i must have discussed it. I discussed, for axampla, the question of access. Mr. Wides. tion was an 1 take it then that you have no racollection option that he was considering? Mr. Iledgman. No, 1 don’t. Mr. Wides. Mr. Hudgman. TI think I, since, I may hava assumed that h As a way of eliminating Lumumba? in view of my inatructions e was doing this. Mr. Wides. Did he indicate to you anything about.4 conversatio n that he had had with Mr. TOP SECRET Risavll regarding 1 | g to you one way or the other whether assasaina-| { { | | |
TOP SECRET assassination of Mr. Lumumba? Mr. Hedgman. I do not recall his discussing that with Brane (Ares 207) 5844000 Mr. Wides. And do you recall ever indicating to him that there was a virus oF othar deadly biological agent in the safe? . | Mr. Hedgman. I do not racall that, no, but 1 gather I must hava from what you toid ma yesterday. Mr. Dawson. You stated yeaterday, f balieve ~~ Mr. Wides. Excuse ma. Lat me just on the record clarify that. bo you mean by that if.Mr. O'Nonnell tustified you did tall him you would not dispute that, you just have no recollac~ wahd & MAUL tion? Me. Hedgman. tf have no rsecoliaction.' Mr. Dawson. You ‘said yesterday you not only were unenthustastic about it, I believe were the terms you used, about the prospect of sasking to assassinate Lumumba, but f 19 | thought you also said that O'Donnell was not particularly 2u | entnustasttc about his work there either? é P} Mr. iiedqman. Yes. . Measrengion, OF Se0e3 py, || down to assassination as such, although certainly in my own 24 mind I think I must have thought that at tha time. TI didn’t, | t § H I | 4 i oe | I would put it yas, his work there. 1 cannot pin it : | | 410 Tarr Sreeet, $0. 25 was not wathuslastic about thase instructions, and Tt had TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET no -- had the imprassion he was not that happy even to be there. Mr. Hides. You said yesterday, 1 believe you said you Brene jAvae 207) $446-4000 felt under no pressure to carry out the assignment, is that {a correct statement? | Mr. Hedqman. Yeah. I don't recall gatting messagas to | the effect, which quite often one qats when you have been givan 8 f dnatructions to carry out a spacific operation, you know, let's 9 hava the information, what are you doing, why aren't you doing 10 | more? 1% do not recall pressure on ma to qet moving on this 1} | thing and do it and carry it out. at Mr. Wides. You indicated a moment. ago, I think, in | }3 | connection with. Mr. O'Ponnell coming and your general wondering a > € re a. a '@ ig # at the time of his approval, whethar there was dissatisfaction Wa y5 |) with your performance that the Congo had become 4 cantral area of focus for the government and their concarn over its future and Soviet dnturvention and 30 forth, is that right? Mr. Hedgman. Yes. ¥ knaw 77 well, of course by the time that Mr. O'Donnell arrived, the Soviet intervention was, ODS 2 tphall wa Saye limited, if TI recall correctly, only to the north x and northeastern part of the country, because the Soviets had bean expelled. weawungtor, OC Mr. Widea, I meant in the larqer sanse of Soviet influenc or Communist influence aventually in the country? Ayo Font Sree. $C. Mr. fiedgman. Yes. TOP SECRET
Burges (Aaa PEP} 546-4003 O00 3 810 Fesr Street, S.C. Wawengios, oc TOP SECRET Now, let's sae. Would you repat that? Me. Wides. Wall, the essence of the question is simply that at this tima, by late September, early October, the Congo was an area of great concern to the United States governmant? Mc. Hedqman. Corract. Mr. Wides. There was a general sense of urgency about the problems? 6 Mr. Hedgman. That's corract. g Mr. Widas. The potential problems, and you had gotten 10 | the unusual communication, 4 direct personal messenger, that 1 | the President of the United States had instructed the Agency se | to eliminate Lumumba? 13 | Mr. Hedgman. Right. | Mr. Wides. Now, I find it a Little hard to understand in that context how you would have regarded, how you could have regarded it as not a high-priority item with some urgency involved. | Mr. Hedgman. Well, certainly it was 4 prierity, but | there were many priorities, and that was one of my problems ; ‘at the time, that I was swamped with work, a little bit like you with four people calling you here. Mr. Wides. Wali, would you have rated on a comparabl level with various intelliqence requiremants you would have va | got in the normal coursa? 2s Mr. Hedgman. No, I would havea ~~ but there ware & number TOP SECRET
Prone {Aves 707) 544-4008 ry > 4 « a 2 & 4 8 marngion OC F000} AINF ear Steet, $C. TOP SECRET of other requirements which were levied on me which we 4re not discussing and ia not in the purview of this discussion today. 3 I think there was one major thing probably which took soma of 4 ithe heat off, that is, that Lumumba had been essentially 5 | neutralized within his office complex, homa and office complex 6 jMrere he was under guard by the United Nations. 7 lig wage able to Band messages out, but tha -~ there had 8 | bean a coup d'etat, at least. there was a coup d'ata on the 9 ; night of the 14th of September, 1960. A government which was, 10 | arthough nationalistically orientad seamad relatively friendly 11 4 foward the United States, Was in power. There waa 4 great daal o| of discussion as to its legality at the tima, but that was resolved by the United States and most of the Western powers who decided that it was legal since the government, since once | President Kasavubu appointed the members of that government, his government, he was the legal Chief of State. So I would ~~ do you follow what IL am trying to say? Mr, Wides. Yes, I do. Mr. iedgman. I think there was 4 lessening in my own feeling, of urgency. Mr. Wides. Each time that you sent a cabla back -7 you gaid you thought you had sant several after the request for confirmation ~~ Mr. Hadgman. 1 think I did. Mr, Wideas. Was thet simply something you made up, or did TOP SECRET
Prone fasee 202} Paws a a & a 3 : AUG Fevnt Street, $.0.. Wasrengian, OC 20003 TOP SECRET that reflect additional action that you had taken? Mr. Hedgman. No, it waa not a fabricated messade. In other words, I didn't fabricate things. Mr. Wides. Did it just reflect furthar thoughts, or did it reflect a report on somy further steps you had taken? | Mr. Hedgman. I think probably, and { cannot ba sure of | this, gir, I think it probably reflacted further steps which I had taken; that is, exploratory steps. Mr. Wides. How many timas did you speak to the agent about what kinds of access ha had, and what Lumumba's patterns ware? Was it on more than one occasion? . Mr. Hedgman. I believa so. I believe it would have bean on two, possibly three. Mr. Wides. What other steps or activities had you undertaken which were reported in your cable? Mr. Hedgman. I think that was it. Querying him, and | then personal observations of the area. Mr. Wides. Did you indicate to/Mr. O'Donnell vwhat you had done in that regard when ha came? Mr. Hedgman. 1 assume I did, bus I cannot be gure. Mr. Widsys. And do you recall -- Mr. tiedgman. I mean, it would have bean normal for me 4 to have done 60. a Mr. Widas. Do you recall discussing with him jDr. jottiieh trip? TOP SECRET
sree fRsee 207) 3444009 eh we waste & ALG Sort Srewet, S.C. wammeton, D.C. 20003 15 16 V7? le 19 2G 21 22 au 24 25 TOP SECRET Mr. Hedgman. % don't recall 4t, but I assume I must Mr, Wides. Why do you assume you must have? Mr. Hedgman. Because you told me yesterday that he tastified that I had told him I had biological agants in my safe. Mr. Wides. And you think you would have told him the additional background of raceipt of those? Is that it? Mr. Hedgman. I balieve so. Mr. Wides. Did you take any steps in the way of discus- gions with the agent you mentioned, or any other steps, to further axplore the posaibLlity of implamenting these instruc- tions once Mr. OQ’ Donnell arrived? t Mr. Hedgman. I do not recall. 1 tend to doubt it, becaus® I believe he left, left town and went to Stanleyville, the agent IT am speaking about, sometima in October. But that's -7 Mr. Wides. Did you feel some sense of relief of not ( a having to pursue the quastion of eliminating Lumumba after Mr. O'Donnell arrived because you sort of felt that this was Ienis apecial assignment? | Mr. Hedgman. Probably. But on tha otharc hand, I was | the senior -- I was not. the senior officer, but T was tha commanding officer, if you will. and anything that took place | waa also my responsibility. Mr. Widas. ‘What did you know of what he tried to do with TOP SECRET
Praga thas F071 546-2600 wERO & PAVE £50 Forge Steet. $.0., Wesmemgtan, OC SOOO! | | ; you saying there might also be massaqus reqarding his activities | | TOP SECRET regard to eliminating, he being o'onnell, in regard to eliminating Lumumba? Mr. Hedgman. It is hard to recall now. I know we mat. lia probably reported varbally to me what steps he was taking, and that may have been those, his raports may have been those messages also which I sent. I said I thought I sant saveral messanges via that special channel, and in retrospect, I may have buan reporting one of thonea massaqes, thay may have bean reports which he gave me to send back to Washington. Mr. Wides. Well, lat ma ‘ask you this: IT have raviewad, and I can represant to you that I have reviewed savaral files ragarding his activities in the Congo, and they include in the normal massage traffic, between Lecpoldvilla and the Congolese desk at the Agancy, refearances to him in his crypt, and his activities there. Did that suggast that -- Mr. tedgman. fie's -~ Mr. Wideus. There might be othar, there might be, are in the special channel, or would that suggest to you that his activities wera not communicated in the apecial channel’ Mr. Hadgman. It dossn't suqgast aither ons, really. am again not trying to fance with you or anything. I don't know, I would guess that T would have sent in a special channel anything dealing with Lumumba, at laast that would touch upon his removal in one way or another. TOP SECRET
Benne (Arse POT) $44-6000 410 Fest Street, $0 Wawrergton, OC 70003 TOP SECRET Wides. Does’ the erypt JMOGRE mean anything to you? Mr. Hadgman. No, air. Mr. Wides. bo you recall a time whan ‘Mr. o'ponnell ‘had yen agent come into the Congo to assist him in his afforts? Mr. Hodgman. TI had not remembarad that until yesterday whan you raised it. Mr. Wides. Do you now have a recollactian, refrashed, of his having somsons come in? Mr. Itedgman. A vague recollection, very vague. Mr. Wides. Ne you recall whare the person came from, or whether hu was a CIA officer, or just a contract agent? Me. fHedqman. From the name you used for him yestarday, I would know that he would be an agunt ag opposed to 4n | intelligence officer. Mr. Wides. But you have no independent recollaction of who he was or where he was from or his background? Mr. Hadgqman. No. I had forgotten that antirely. Mr. Wides. Po you recall a time when you learned that Patrice Lumumba had escaped from his house detention or arrest M4 n tha Presidential Palace? | Mr, itudgman. Yes. If was not the Palace, the Prime Minister's residence. j Mr. Wides. The Prime Minister's rasidence. | And do you racal] whether you had any foreknowledge that t that was imminent, or a likely possibility? [ TOP SECRET
4 2 ¢ s @ 8 a " ry Brome {hres POF} $46 4000 TOP SECRET Mr. Hedgman. No, I did not recall that. He did not -- it did not seem likely, since the antire area was surrounded by Congolesa troops. Mr. Wides. Do you know of any assistance or involvament J . fof Mr. O'Ponnell ‘or his agent or anyone olse connected with the | Station in Mr. Lumumba's escape from tha detention? i Mr. Hadgman. I am quite certain that there was no Agency | nvoivemens in any way, bucause fT think I would -- I am convinced | t would have known it as Chief of Station. i ' O'Donnell could not have taken guch action under normal Agency procedures without consulting ma. Mr. Wides. Now, is it correct that when hea escaped, Mr. Lumumba tried to journey to the Stanleyville ragion where his ' tl following was the strongest, and that along thea way, en route, | he was apprehended by the Cantral Congolese government authori- ties and brought back under arrest, first to Leopoldville, | H| { q Mr. Wideas. And this happened some time in the period of F |, November? ia that correct? Mr. Hedgman. That's correct. x Mr. Hedqman. Late November. Mr. Wides. And to your Knowledge or information that you might have, was there any CIA assistance provided in any \ significant way for tracking him dewn and the afforts to recapture him? TOP SECRET |
2 > « * a Q a « g Prone {Aca POP} PS-SOOD 29033 ALO Sreee Srsoes. & Ea, Mr pememarar, pe Mr. Hedgman. No. I baliave as we said yosatarday, you asked ma if T had a plane and did spotting or anything of that sort. No, we did not Mr. Hides. Or providing any other resources or intelli- nce information or guidance of any sort? Mr. Hedgman. Wa had no intelliqanca information. | Guidance, a8 I said, | racail beina with, Il believe, Congolese & officars to the effect that’ they were trying to figure out how 9 |lto head him off, a discussion about thera ware only a certain jo |} number of ferries and river crossings whare the roads -- you 31 | mows thare were 4 Limited number of roada, and ha had to go ' through deep rain forests and major rivers ware crossed. 1 may have commented. I don't know for sure. mr. Wides. But you would not charactarize your activities as providing any assistance to the Congolese toa locate him, or would you? Mr. Hudgman. f honestly, I don't think it -~ if it was any assistance, certainly not 4 major assistance. Mr. Wides. Do you recall any communication with the _Aganey while Mr. Lumumba was 4t larqe prior to your trip to Rome, which I will get to in a moment, ahout his escape or, T' sorry, about your provision of any assistance oF cooparating with -- Mr. Hedgman. 1 don't recall. Mr. Wides. “7 the Congolese government? TOP SECRET
omgme 1asaa 707} $M AOD wand & PRUE pono) 810 Fost Sisoot, S Cu Weeneton, OC TOP SECRET Mr. Nedgman. tam certain I sent cables about what I knew ij about it, about what Tf would gather from things. i may hava commented about what. might have been dona to head him off. Mr. Widesa. Would those have been in the normal channels, those communications? Mr. Hedgman. Yas. 1 would assume thay would have bean. Remember, we are at that time ~~ I should stress this, this makes i quite 4 @ifferance ~~ our communications facilities were marginal to say the leant, and we did not have the modarn equipment vnten! {gs now usad in most Stations, embassies, where You just sit | down and poke it out. And Tt won't qo into the technical aspects; but it took much longer te code, encode and decode massages. As a result, 1 kept my messages much shorter than what I would nowadays. So, I presume and assume that | sunt whatever intelligence I could gather on what waa happening. Mr. Wides. Was there a tima in November when you went to Rome for 4 muating with Mr. Bissell and “Mr. Twaedy? | | | | | | Mr. Hedgman. That's correct. Me. Wides. And Bronson qweady and Richard Riassell? ledgman. That's correct. - Wides. And this took place at Sao KenLloy in Rome? iadgman. That's correct. Wides. The meeting? Headqman. Yes. Widea. And Mr. Karamessinus, Thomas Karamesninas, Was TOP SECRET
Prep {Ares 207) 464-4000 Paw y 210 Feat Steeet, SL, Haenengr an, O., 20003 Chief in Rome? Mr. Hedgman. He Was. Mr. Wides. Was he present for some of the discussions, oF Mr. tadgman. I! believe he waa prasent 4t the general va discussions that ws had. Jjonty for the gensral, the social =~ { Me. Wides. Mo you recall -- Mr. Hedgman. IY know hea was there part of the avaning. 1 This took place at his home 48 opposed to the office. Mr. Wides. And part of the discussion and the main focus | with regard to the Congo, was on the fact that Lumumba was box the loose, and it wasn't clear whether he would incite an juprising? Mr. Hedgman. I would say it was more clearly a complete erview of what was going on, including tha threat of tha Tshombe secession. Of cartainty, Lumumba's escape would have been a major point of discussion, at was the fact that Gizanca ll naa get up a government which he claimed to ba the only true and | resteimete government in Stanleayvilla. | t : fo Mr. Wides. Was Mr. Lumumba one of the topics that you x recall discussing? Mr. Hedqman. I'm quite cartain that we did, but — mean ~~ Mr. Wides. This would have been because he was on the Loose at that point? Mr. HWedgman. Yes. TOP SECRET
trang (fvee 202) 442-4089 2 3 4 « a 2 & 4 Ei £10 Fest Sr oeL, S-E, Hasnnai on. G & roo} Peed TOP SECRET Mr. Wides. And had not been captured and was a potential threat? Mr. Hedgman. Yes. I had asked not to leave to attend tha maeting. MY recoliaction is I gant a message saying that in my opinion f should not leave the Congo at that time. Mr. Wides. I know that. wa have had a Little mora chance to think about it. Can you racall now any discussion at that 9 masting regarding Lumumba's possible assassination, aither 1G | prospectively or with. raferencea back to your earifer cables to Li W teadquarters and your. meeting wien[or. cottliab2| Mr. Hedgman. No, IT cannot. Mr. Pawson. This meating was 6 maating of the African Station Chiefs, wag it not? Mr. Hadgman. Yes. If don't know whether all were there, 16 l, r the majority, but cartainly a number of them were thare. vy Ht put. they were not. present at the avaning meeting. b Hl yey Mr. Dawson. No. I understand that. 1G | Mr. Hedgman. i was given sort of 4 special traatment,. zu inte see him, and then I could laave. Mr, Wides. Pid you ever have any discussions with Bronagn Pwaudy regarding the assassination of Lumumba. where both the assassination, the quastion of assassination, the quastion of assassination in ralation to Lumumba cama up, either in tha fall of '60 or later 1960 or later on? TOP SECRET
Prone (Ares PO?) 4444608 a 3 4 ry e io] A <4 & SIG Foret Steere, §.EL Maem gon. OC POOF TOP SECRET Mr. Hedgman. I must assume that we did, but I cannot he cartalin of that. Mr. Wides. f think you indicated to us yesterday you recalled talking with Rronson Twaady in regard to Lumumba and paying in affect that, thank God nothing was aver done. And 1 thought the implication was -- Mr. Hedgman. I think I probably, I said I probably said that sort of thing, but to rucall a specific meating and. conversation on this subject, tam not sure that 1 said that. Mr Wides. Would you say you have no recollection of discussing assassination of Lumumba with Nronson Twaedy? Mr. Hiudgman. Tf have « vaque recollection of gaying, you know, something to the affect that it was «a wood thing we didn't, but I can't ba -- Mr. Wides. You can't place it, but you havea some recol- lection that you had such a discusston? Mr. Hedgman. I think so, sir... But this is a pratty vague thing in my mind. Mr. Wides. And can you recall when you think that happened? I don't Mean by apecific date, hut that ts the period| fon question or much later on? Mr. tledqman. Probably later on, but I don't know. That's | 4 Gucas. | Mr. Wides. No you recall evar havina a discussion with Mr. Risseall regarding it? TOP SECRET
Bruna iteaa POT) $44 4000 wAanh a Pawn 420 Foret Steer $.L Rewwng an OL TOO! TOP SECRET Mr. Usdgman. To what? Mr. Wides. With regard to the assassination of Lumumba? bid that particular question ever come tp in discussions that yy ou had with Mr. Bissell either during the events which wae have been discussing or after the events? Mr. Hadgman. Of course, I didn't see Mr. Bissell very | often. I gaw him in Rome, and I naxt saw him whan I returned in late January of 1961, whan I returned to the States. [ cannot recall such 4 conversation, but I think it is possibla, perhans even likely. Mr. Wides. But you have no recollaction? Mir. Hadgqman, No, sir. Mr. Wides. Would the same ba true with regards to Mr. Dulles, that you have no recollection, although it is possible? Mr. Hedgman. Yes. Mr. Wides. Do you recall -- Mr. Hedgman. T saw Mr. Dulles aven less often. - Wr, Wides. Po you recall discussing the fact that you had received instructions to try to assassinata Lumumba with | Oorector Schlesinger in 1973? Mr. Hedgman. [ believa it was at that time that T spoke & request for any information which would, activitias conducted or considared, what have you, by the Agency, which would appear illegal. { to him, because when he took ovar, wither he or ‘ir. Colby issuad Bats TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET Mr. Wides. Ho you think that was the tima, but you have a definite recollection that in any avent you did at some point relate this, relate the fact of thesa instructions to Diractor trons (aeta 707} $44 4008 Schlesinger? Mr. edgman. 1 think it was Schissinger. It could have been Colby, but I beliave it was Schlesinger, or I may haves told both of tham. Mr. Wides. Other than those two qdentlamen and tha people wa have discussed siready -7 Mr. Baron. What exactly did you tell Schlesinger as far as you can recall] that now? Mr. Hedqman. That, to the affect that I felt that I had received instructions to assassinate Lumumba. Baath a PRUL Mr. Baron. You didn’t mention the means by which this was to be carried out? Mr. Hedgman. I doubt it, but r don't. know. tr. Wides. fo you recall mentioning the Prasidantial authority? Mr. Hedgman. I think that I did. fr. Waren. YOu gay you may hava discussed it with both x re would have taken place subsequently with Colby when ha became BCL? Schiesinger and Colby. that would have been 4 discussion thet | ALO Pee So ~sat, SE. Benorera Ot, Mr. Hedgman. Well, of courss Colby was Executive Direc | | under Mr. Schlusinger. Colby could have bean in the room when ‘ ' t TOP SECRET ee.
Proms (Aras POF} 344-4000 * wAeo &® Paue TOP SECRET I reported to Schlesinger. It is silly that I don't remember specifically this, but I did maka, I did report this verbally. I praferred not to -~ Mr. Wides. And your best recollec fon is you reported it i | to Schlesinger, and you may hava also reported it to Mr. Colby. | { Mr. Hedqman. Yes. Yas. ia that your best recollection? Mr. Naron. And you were going to gay that you preferrad not to put it in writing? Mr. Hadgman. It was the sort of thing I did not wish to dictate to a secretary, and being one, if not one of the world's, best typists, and thirdly it seemed to mes it was a matter not to circulate on paper, frankly. It was 4 mistake that it -- Mr. Wides. Can you racall ever discussing this with Richard Helms? Mr. Hedgman. No, I don't recall. Wides. -- the instruction to assassinate? Mr. iHedgman. I don't recall. : Mr. Wides. Is there anyone wise in the Aqancy ‘ever racall discussing this assigned mission with? Mr. Madgman. No, It's possible that I talked with some- j one Like Tom Karamessines when he was pNP. Rut -- | Mr. Dawson. Did you talk to for. Gottliab (subsequent to his arrival in the Congo? Mr. Wides. You mean after hia departure, after that trip? TOP SECKET
pry 2 [Aves PGT} 9444000 ree waRD e 210 Fost Steam, &.EL Mermemg: On. ac pou) TOP SECRET Mr. Dawson. Yes, subsequent to. Nr. Hedgman. IT saw him numerous timas. Mr. Dawson. And your reaction to him was thank God we | didn't have to carry that misaion out, OF thank God it didn't happen? Mr. Hedgman. Well, 1 talkad to him about so many things, and I probably said that. Mr. Wides. Do you have 4 racollaction of discussing wi th him at a subsaquent time to his trip to Leopoldville, aver raising the instructions he gave you for his trip? Mr. Headgman. Not specifically 48 auch. tar. Wides. You don't have 4 recollection, or you don't recali discussing it specifically, hut you recall soma genara) iiiusion to 1t? Mr. Hedgman. Yes, I recall general {illusion to it. Mr. Dawson. Po you recall talking to anybody within the Laat gix months about this, or more racently? Hr. Wides. Since the first of the year? Nr. Hedgman. Yeah. T am just trying to go through in my ‘own mind. | (Pause) Yus, Mr. Colby. I saw him the other day when | returned, Mr. Wides. What. was your discussion with him in that regard? Mr. liadgman. 1 told him 1 assumed this subject would come TOP SECRET —— | |
Prone fares 2707) 3444069 4 EB] « a r « 8 ° . som, GE. Craemegion GO POOP 410 F ww TOP SECRET: Mr. Dawson. This subjact? Did you axpect him'toa be cognizant with all tha particulars? Mr. HWadgman. I am not. sure that T did. Mr. Dawson. At least the Prasidential authorization and the passage of tha vials of poison, the person that was used to pasa thesa? Mr. Hedgman. I mentilonad he. cottiteb'a| name. T am not gure that I mantioned vials of poison or -- Mr. Wides. Mid you indicate to nim for. Gottlieb} had come to the Congo? Mr. Hedgman. 1 believe I did. Mr Dawson. Wall, lat me just follow that. And the Presidential authorization, was that also mentioned? Mr. Hedgman. Yes, I am quite sure T mentioned that. Mr. Dawson. What was his raaction? Mr. Hedgman. Wis reaction was that it was a qraat shame that this ever happened. I'm putting words in his mouth. Mr. Dawson. Go riqht ahead. Mr. Hadgiman. And certainty that 1 must obviously report fully and honestly to the Comnittea. Mr Wides. Mid he discuss, say anything ahout his prior knowledga of what you had just told him? Pid he seamad surprised by any of what you told him? TOP SECRET SHE
tanne (Aras OF) POt4009 a 5 é & @ & a 4 3 41G Sere Grea, $4, Semen Tv . Poms 2 3 5 & 9 8 9 10 11 2 is 14 15 16 V4 TOP SECRET Mr. Hedgman. No, I don't think go. I think that TI had given him this, or as fT said earlier, probably at the same time or parallal with when I did Dr. Schlesinger. Mr. Wides. When you saw him racantly and mentioned this, did you refur to your telling this to Pirector Schlesinger, or did you say, as you recall? Mr. Medgman. Something like that. Mc. Wides. And did he acknowledge that he had learned of it earlier? Mr. Hodgman. Acknowledge? 1 think he indicated -~- f would, have, would have assumad from his conversation that he recalled something about it, yes. , Mr. Wides. Mid the fact that Nr. Gottlieb had mada a4 trip to the Congo seam to surprise him, or did ha acknowledge that he was aware of that 43 wall? Mr. Hedqman. I don't know. 1 don't know that I said at this time that. I referred to fb . cottlieb!s) travel to the Congo when I saw him. : Mr. Wides. Recently? a Me. Hedginan. Just the other day when [f came back FT pate a courtesy Call on him. Mr. Dawson. This was like this week then? Mr. Hedgman. Yes. It was Monday, I believe. Mr. Dawson. Do you recall anybody else that was a4 party to that conversation, or whom you had similar conversations with TOP SECRET
SECRET KFaecently, aimilar and saparate? Mr. Wides. Was there anyone there when you spoke to Mr. Colby? Prane (Ares 207] 244 4505 then wa wera alone for part of tha meeting. | ' Mr. Medgman. For part of it, part of the meeting, and | Mr. Wides. Was there anyone thera when you mantioned what iy ou theuqht he wanted to talk to you about? | Mr. Hadgman. Wo, there was no one alse prenent. Mr. Wides. And have you spokan te anyone alsa? i Mr. Hadgman. I didn't wish to raise this in front of { | other Agancy employees, because it svemed to ms that I didn't fT I know who was aware of thin. TI had no desires to discuss it in PO & FRA i | front of others. Mr. Wides. Did he indicate anything as to what ha thoucht ea anyone elise had told the Committee or would tall tha Committees, including Mr. Bissell, Mr. O'Connell or/Mr. Gottlieb, tr: ; sovelied?) Mr. Wedgman. No. We just indicated that it was vary difficult -- I am really putting words in his mouth and I i ‘shouldn't do this. J had the impression that he regretted this vary much, that this had ever happensd, and the truth had to i rejoin its §tatus and usefulnass. But I am putting -- T am elaborating probably. lle may not have thought ali of those 430 Foe Sree, $2 Ganmognes, 2. POE things. come out, and that was the only way for the Agency to ever | I
\ WARE @ Fawr tmane (Aree POP} $A6-4000 B20 F sey Sree, REL Weng Or mo 2eant TOP SECRET Mr. Wides. Have you had any conversations diractly or through intermediary communications with either Mr. Bissell or Mr. Twuedy since you raturned? 1 Mr. fledgman. No. I tried te call Mr. Tweady a3 an old personal friend on his phone twice and there Wan no answat. So j { ' | t | Y assume he is away on vacation or something, either that or \ | inaybe he's in town and ft just missed him. | recall having all of the facts of tha Presidantial authorization, Mr. Dawson. So to summarize, tha only parson you rasily 10 passing of the virus, with whom you really have 4 fiem recollec- % ! tion, T should say, is /pr. Gottlieb? Mr. tladqaman. Yes. 1 would have quesssd that. Me. Wides. Excuse Ma. mean he aver discussed it with? Mr. Dawson. The whole picture, oF the panorama of things that might have taken place. Mr. fiedgman. ft don't think that I -- I mean, ha diacussed Mr. Dawson. I agreg, sir. { it with me. , . | Mr. Wides. Let me ask you two mory questions {f T can. f MH and then 1 will have to leave. 1 ‘ py Mr. Baron. Just to follow this up, have ‘you spoken to 1 Ie “th , | Dr. Gottiteh about coming to tha Committee? { Mr, Iedgman. 1 have not. T hava not seen him. Mr, Wides. With regard to the evants subsaquant to TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET Lumumba's recapture and his detention in Thaysvilla -~ Mr. Hadgman. Thaysville. Mr. Wides. Thaysville. Bowen {Mees PE7} DAS HORS And his subsequent, Mr. Lumumba's subsequent transportati to Katanqa, what discussions did you have with the Congolese officials and what kind of quidanca or input did you or anyone from the U.S. Embassy or Station make into those decisions to transport him to Katanga? Mr. Hedgman. To the bast of my knowledga, neither the Station or the Embassy had any input in the dacision to send ‘é him to Katanga. Mr. Wides. What. discussions wera there with tha Conjolese officials us to whethe: ine might be executed aither by the awe @ PAUL Central Government while ha was under their control or by Hr. Tahombe when he was sunt to Katanga? Mr. Hedgman. I don't recall any such conversations. think there was a general assumption, once we learned he hat been Sent to Katanga, that his goose wos cooked, because Tshombe; hated him and looked on him a3 4 danger and a rival. | Mr. Wides. But you had no discussions with anyone in the | Central Congolese government reqarding whether ha should should not be sent there? Mr. Hedgman. I had absolutely none, no sir. G10 tot Sowek, SK, See, TL vos} you hava as to whether they were considering his death prior to | Mr. Wides. And onca ha was there, what information did | \ { { | TOP SECRET.
pmanne thrae 207} $44 4009 mato a baue fteng3 nm? |. amengear, ae ALG Borat Steeet, TOP SECRET learning of his death? Mr. Hedqman. I had no, no information beacause dt was not tha sort of thing I suppose that the Congoles6é officials really ‘wanted to discuss with a representative of a foreign government. | base Chief in the Katange Province and the officials in Katanga? Mr. Wides. Was there any contact between Our acting Was there any discussion batwoen them or communication that you know of ragarding what would be dona with Patrica Lumumba? Mr. Hadgman. Wo. The only thing that I would imagine would have happened is they would have triad to advins both | Washington and Leopoldvilie of any information they. had on what i happened to him. \ Mr. Widas. Fxcuse mo. off the record. {Discussion off the record.) Mr. Baron. I would like to move very quickly through « faw loogye ends that pop up as we went. along ralating to your , conversation wien fpoettieb) and then, 0! Ponnell and then Schiesinger, and it is really just about one. question on evary loose end, and I want to than turn to WIROGUE, and 1 don't think that will taka very long, and thea the possibility of conversations with the Embassy. And I would like your halo on that part since IT was not thera yastarday. pat F wilk leave that for the last. and you can pick up with any 1loosa ends. Is that all right with you? TOP SECRET
Banne (has 262) Md GO00 WARE B® POWE . @1C Fara Sreoet, $E, MaswningFon, st sere) 9 TOP SECRET Dawgon. Fina. Mr. Baron. Mr. Hadgman, I’would like to pick up here | for a momant with a series of short, loose ends from the examination that we have done so far. | Mr. Hedgman. I will try to do my bast. Mr. Baron. That is, first of all, when you discussed | you indicatad to him verbally that you had bean askad to participate in an assasgaination of Patrice Lumumba. Mid he 10 | respond whan you made that indication to him? Mr. fledgman. May I go back? I think I mada it to him. | your conversation with the than-DCI, Schlasinger, you said that | It is concaivable that. I could have made it to Ai1Li Colby as his Exscutive Director, OF that the two conid have been present together. It is ridiculous, but I cant pin this one down in datail. “Mr. Baron. Did you receive 4 response from Schlesinger? You mentioned yesterday that he was able to be quite Sphinxlike | when he wanted to, and you thouqht ‘that this might have been onu of those situations. ; \ Kr. Hedqman. T had the impression he took it all on board: and did not necessarily wish to advise me of what action he | planned to taka. | Mr. Baron. Was there any follow-up? vr. Hudgman. Hither he or Colby, which ever it was. Mr. Baron. Was thera any follow-up from either Schlesinger, i TOP SECRET
Panne [Aras FOP} $44 6000 4 3 4 * ¢ 2 « 4 # £30 fanat Street. $0. Maemenator, OC MOD? Lal a TOP SECRET or Colby after you had given them this information? Mr. Hedgman. I do not recall. Mr. Baron. Did you ever discuss the assassination mission with anyone in the Inspactor General's Office at the CIA? Mr. Hadgman. Not to my racollection. fut it is concalve- able they could have sent -- during that period, thera wars a number of discussions with Inspector Generals on various aspects I f H , of work and so on. Whether there wags a ‘iiscussion of this i 4 jpubreck« I dentt recall it. So I doubt it, but I don't know. i | Mr. Baron. On a number of diacussiona that you had with | the Inspector General's Ooffica? i H ed this, personnel matters. i} Mr. Hedgman. On many othar subjects, totally unrelated if As you recall, Dr. Schlesinger committed 4 vary sharp i reduction in force, which rasulted in personnel problems and | 4 1 | Inspector Generals’ investigations, and so forth. Mr. Baren. Were you interviewed by anyone from the Inspector General's office in the preparation of thair Report i in 1967 on assassination efforts within the CTA? I. Me. Wedgman. 1967? i u Mr. aren. Yes. Let ma reprasent to you that at thu request of the pcr, | tha Inspector General's Office prepared a Report {n 19367 on any davolvament that CIA had or could be conceived to hava had with assassination efforts. Ware you interviewad in connection TOP SECRET
wm OAR orang teres TOF) 944.4000 onos ALC Forse Stewer, SE, Resmenaon, ae 2 aT — es TOP SECRET i with that Report? Mr. Hedqman. When ~~ you don't remember the date of the Report? H Mr. Baron. I believe the date was in May of 1967, and it | (was prapared by Scott Breckinridge and Mr. Farman and Mr. Greer. i I Mr. fedqman. Yas, I know them all. I don't believe #0. f jouk Io was abroad at that time. Mr. Dawson. Was the significance of the data in 1967 of any great moment? Mr. Waedgman. TT was abroad at the time. I didn't raturn to the States until uly, T believe, of 1967. | Mc. Raron. Returning now to your discugsions with De | Gianey cottiien|wnen he came to the Congo, to give you lethal biological agents for the assassination of Lumumba, was [t j, clear at that time thet the means for administering those i biological aqents was jto inject them into 4 gubstanca that was i i to be ingested by Lumumha, whether it be food, or drink, oF i | toothpaste, or any other substance that was to be ingested? \ : Mr. Hedgman. That's my recollection, yur. f 1 Hr. Baron. You Inentioned that it was your bast recollectibn  ~ | . that. br. Gottliab brought tha lgthal biclogical agents with him. Is that correct? Mr, iiadqman. ia | | | H | i | | | Mr. Baron. And you mentioned yastarday that you beliave Nt ' .
TOP SECRET brought tham with him in his baq. Is that right? Mr. Hedgman. I have a racollection that they ware in 4, Penne {Aree 2027} 442-6000 what do you cali these small carry-on bags likes your Pan Am ban or Sabina baq or something like that. Mr. Baron. It would not have baan difficult for pr. : to have gotten such aquipmant into tha Conao at that — time, would it? y Mr. Hedgman, No. Mr. Baron. Ware thers extendive Cuatoms checks in | Congo at chat time? f Mr. Hedgman. There wers not. ¥ Mr. Baron. Were there any Customs checks at that polat? eAARD & PAUL Mr. Hedgman. I can't recall, but if so, they ware vary Limited. Mr. Baron. When you spoke with fpr. Gottlieb,| did you ask him how long the Lethal biological agents would retain their potency? Mr. Hedqman. I believe thera was 4 conversation €o effect. “Mr, Baron. Po you recall what he said? Hr. Hedqman. 1 think it was fairly short, some months . i { i | { Mr. Baron. They would be lathal only for a fairly short | period of time? AYO fat Stewed, S.C. Maem om, oe 2000) | Mr. Hedgman. Yas. | { |
23 44 4000 rc (het be " MARE & PALE 2ooa 3 BE, amen 1 Bil © at Qieeot, TOP SECRET A period of some montha? I think 1¢ was lass than that, but I cannot j ba certain. [That is, I ramember baling surprised, thinking that 4 4 limits cartan possibilities riqht: thera. ; Mr. Baon. And you said @arlier that you took tha t i! { poisons intqda aafe at the Station. Whan did you take the ; poisons outpf the safe? | Mr. Hagman. fF cannot really recall that. Mr. Bron. Did you take tham out on more than ¢ | occasion? Mr. Heigman. No. Mr. Biron. And that occasion was -- Mr. ipiaman. No. T say no. Not to tha bast of my recollectia, I want to stress that because it i3 so long ag ost certain I did not. Mr. fron. And the occasion when you did take the an polsons ougot the safe was whan you disposed of tham? t Mr. Hdgman. Yes. Mr, And can you describe the circumstances? a briefcas " i r. fdgman. I think that I took them out probably in er an alr baq of gome sort, and 1 believe that { the thingslike the rubber glovas and the mask were thrown away ina susnybres or something where, you know, if they were found it shave matter that much. T believe f buried the other ma vhs. { TOP SECRET
wrane paves POT) F446 4000 waARO ® PAUL on OOD F - SO. Reowmenerne, BC SID Fest S18 94, TOP SECRET Mr. Baron. The blological agents? Mr. Hedgman. Yas, although they, by that time they would, the potancy would have expired. But, they didn't seem tha sort | of thing -» I didn't know enough about it, and I will ba damned | if F wanted to leave them lying around. Mr. Baron. Was this out by the Congo Rivar that you i thease things? i i ' racollaction. Mr. Hedaqman. Yas, yes, I think. You know, it is my Mr. Baron. Wan this aftar the arrest of Lumumba, aftoar Lumumba had already heen placed in protective custody so to Mr. Hedgman. Hy the Congolwuse, you mean? Mr. Baron. Yas. Mr. Hedgman. Yes, I would think 80. Mr. Baron. And was it possible that you waited until Lumumba's death to dispose of those poisons? “yr. HNedgman. That's poss sible. T don't remember. Mr. fdaron. But you ~= Me. tledgqman. They were lony overdue, whatever it wag, . . think, because I believe =~ Mr. Baron. Yesterday you stated thar it was your recol- ad not disposed of the poisons until Lumumba , was succsssfully neutralized, either by arrest or by death, | and aon whieh.” | { i | | i |
TOP SECRET Hr. Hadgman. I think that probably would be a4 fair statemant. Mr. Baron. Did you discuss the assassination mission magne thewa 2025 944-4000 with Dr. Lester louk? Mr. Hadginan. Never. I am spiite gura now. Mr. Baron. He was your Branch Chiaf at that point? Mr. Hedqman. iia was. Mr. Baron. Did you discuss it with Glenn Fields? Mr. Hedgman. 1 don't rucall. Wea was Acting Chiat and Deputy Chief. Mr. Baron. Do you recall discussing the ansasgination mission with anyone else at the Station or in the Congo other than the ona asset? on HARD & PAUL commenting on this to =~ NES ! | Mr. Hedgman. No. 1 remambar hearing (Mr. O'Donnell! | | : j. Mr. Baron, q iA Zo UEOS Gilets ps i fir. Hedgman. 1! believe it wes} | and I waa i I shocked and surprised, because { thought this was not the : | sort of thing that he ahould discuss with officers who were not | i i “.davolved in this. ‘ ne Mr. Baron. What was joh at that. time? Mr. Hedgman. ile was under non-official cover and an agent handler, OF not necessarily juat the aqents, but developing contacts. ALO Carat Street, s E., Maarenstan, OF reed Mr. Baron. And what's his full name? TOP SECRET
Prgne [Ares 207) 442-6000 oa “ RO @ Paws, Noe et, $0... Wrormengtos, OG 7000) 430 Foyt St TOP SECRET mare Mr. Hedgman. — Mr. Baron. What did you haar Fone to Mc. Hedgman. TI don't ramember exactly, but in any case i | ae referred to something about removing Lumumba from -~ tim not sure wheather it was ansaggination or neutralization,. but whatever i Le was, it seemad to ma he had gona too far. | | idea of assassination? ° | ° Mr. Baron. And had gone too far because it conveyed tha * | 9 Mr. liadqman. Probably, but I cannot be sura. 30 Mr. Baron. You indicated earlier that in mid-September there was a coup which affectively limited Lumumba'ts powers in the Congo? Mr. Hadgman. That 4s correct. Mr. Baron. And this would have bean very shortly after or. Gottlieb visited you in tha Congo and gave you the instruc- 16 | tien about assassinating Lumumba? yr! Mr. Hedgman. I can't be sure whether it was bafore or i after. That was the i4th of September, that coup took place, ‘but as you will recall, I cannot be absolutely certain of when i sen((oe. Gottied) Il think it was before that, but 1 cannot 4 i Mr. Baron. But it ig quits possible, isn't it, that the ' 4 be Sure. | coup could have been 4 major reason why thare wasn't any more i zi | vigourous action on the assassination front? - ne au 2s Mr. Hedgman. that's possible, yes.
Panne jacen TOP) 524-4000 tC 2 4 e a a 4 = ss 4, 7 ALO Fergt Greeot, $1... Wasmenatan, BC. 25008 TOP SECRET Baron. Is that 7- Mr. Hedgman. And I have speculated on that eariier. Mr. Baron. Is that a strong possibility to you? Mr. HNedgman. I just couldn't put it, because I don't know what the policy mskers, the political leaders, the President, the Director, what the Director's policy, the senior axecutive, anyway, were thinking at that tima. Mr. Baron. And you mantionad that Justin Q'Ponnell was not particularly activa during his period of service in the Congo? Mr. fleadgman. He did not seem as activa ag many of the other people that I had working for ma at that time. Mc. Baron. You didn't rely upon him for major operations or activities at that point, did you? Mr. Hedgman. No. Well, this -- he was sent out more or less on a special mission, 45 I understood it, and I left him free for that. Mr. Baron. You dndieated yesterday, and I would like to know if this is still your impression, that the fact that Justis . | ‘O'Donnell might not have been active on the assassination mission may not have been dus to any jack of priority for that mission, but due more to his personal habits of inactivity? My. Hadgqman, Perhaps TI don't want to malign Justin. don't mean that. ~~ shouldn't have commented on his character or his personal habits, really. 1 just have the impression he was TOP SECRET
not putting his whole haart and soul into tha effort. He was an officer with a raputation for being gung ho and a very hard worker when I had known him proeviously, soma years previously. Panne (Aree TOP) 546-4000 and he seemd quite, certainly did net seem that way to ma out thera. Mr. Dawson. pid you comment on that to tha Agency? Mr. Nedgman. tf doubt it, but I cannot be sure. Mr. Dawson. Ware you writing his efficiency report at tima? Mr. Hedgman. Ha didn't stay long enough for ma to write an efficiency report. I could have written one if he stayed the 90 days or more, and as the cos I could have written one . 9 if I'd wished. + warh & Pawh > Mr. Dawson. But you chose not to do 80? ” + Mr. Hadgman. I chose not to, to the bast of my recoliec- Mr. Baron. Did much of the cabla traffic which you received from Headquarters in ralation’to the assassination mission subsequently become destroy#d? Mr. Hedgman. It is my recollection that before leavins x tion, I did not. ' | | | the Station and turning over to my successor that I destroyed that. Perhaps well befora. 1 just can't put a timeframe on it, but it seamed to me it was not the type of correspondence to leave lying about 4 Station. Mc. Baron. You indicated yesterday that you had received TOP SECRET 270 Farat Street, $.O.. Wangan, BE 20003
some kind of inatructions to deatroy that cable traffic. Mc. Hodgman. tf think I -- I cannot recall exactly what I said yasterday. Now, when I am trying to be 43 precise as 1 can on the record here —7 Mr. Baron. Please do- ; | Mr. Hedgman. 1 think I did, but I cannot be certain. cannot be absolutely. I don't. know whether 1 did. - ’ a verbally from-Dr. Gottlieb, or 3s part of ona of the cables? Mr. Hedgman. Tf don't know. Mr. Baron. Would you have receivad thosa instructions | { Mr. Baron. Would it ba standard procedure for 4 Chial of Station to dustroy cable traffic relating to 4n axtreme ly sensitive operation like that one? Mr. Hudgman. Well, it is standard procedure to keap your cable files and all other files as small as possible, because copies of those are retained, of all maseages are normally retained in Washington. You try and keep 43 email 4 number as ‘possible on hand so as to permit you to continue working s©° thet: you haves ready reference, because you may have to, in an gmurygency YOu may have to burn all of your communications. And belisva ma, , when you have to go through a burn aassion, it is very difficult, and it takes time. Mr. Baron. Had you evar in your experience as Chief of Sreeot, & T, Feaeenaios. oe 2000) Station in the Congo destroyed other cable traffic bucaus? of 210 Fast its extremely sungitive nature? TOP SECRET
Mr. Hedgman. No, 1 don’t think so. I don't recall doing so. But I destroyed 4 graat deal of traffic, because the Congo waa a highly sensitive area in which -~ at one period 1 racall Pryne three 2077 444.4606 ‘ wa had all of our files in the burn barrels. 1 mean, when you | wanted a file, you went over and dug it out of the burn barrel. ; Mr. Baron. But the cable traffic relating to the | assassination mission wasn't destroyad as 4 routine matter becaugs it was excess traffic, but because of its extramely | sensitive nature? Mc. Iledgman. NO, that's correct. | Mr. Baron.’ Did you have any discussions of the aasassina- tion mission with anyone at the U.S. Embassy? Mr.iledgman. No, 1 did not. 7. 9 ams & OauE Mr. Baron. Did you ever discuss the prospects of n | | | 3 assassinating Patrice Lumumba with the Ambassador in the Congo? Mr. Hedgman. IF am quits sure I did not. (Discussion off the racord.} Me. Medgman. May 1 say for the record that relationships | Mr. Baron. Off the record for a moment. | | ' | i 1 with the Embassy were exceptionally good. There was almost, or no friction, or sense of compatition betwoen the CIA Station and: friendly and understanding. SE PER BTN, BC 2000} | the Embassy. The Ambassador was axtremsly cooparative, , Mr. Baron. Who was the Ambassador at that tima? Hadgman. Clare i. T imbarlake. 410 Covad Strort { | oo | | _ TOP SECRET
7 4 Pwadhe Cpeud ” Pryne {Ales 207) $64.6008 OOO F AYO Cases Sre9et, FE. asnrnatar. OC | SEER wni le you were in the Congo? TOP SECRET Mr. Daron. Did you ever discuss the Lumumba assassination plan with Aeros: so BS Mr. Hedgman. Not to the bast of my recollection. Mr. Baron. (I, is a CIA officer, is that corract? 8 Nr. Hedgman. Yeah. T know him. Rs Mr. Baron. Did you have any official business with} ihickhd Mr. Wadgman. Yes. Nea came through on a counterintelli- gnce mission, and I don't recall the dataiis at this time, Mr. Baron. Do you recall whether he had mentioned that - ee his mission ralated to Project 7RRIFLF or the development of an Executive Action capability? Mr. Hedgman. No, I do not recall that. Mr. Baron. — Would his project have related to obtaining codes by surraptitious means? Me. Hedgman. I think it would have been more nearly that, but I, I cannot affirm this as the case. That was what I think was probably the casa. | | | Mr. Baron. Would his project hava involved an asset who XN was already in the Conyo named QIWLN? Mr. Hedgman. 1 gather from what. was said yesterday that this was the case. I do not recall it. \3 Mr. Hedqman,. Ano SSussTOTe ame from he indicated, TOP SiiCRET | Mr. Beron. Have you evar heard of | \
frnne (aroa 20273 4-44-6000 . Aim 7 fy + Soe 4 7 1G Firat Storer, SO. vraamingion, O ©. 20003 you indicated yesterday Q there with -~ Mr. Baron. ‘This is Mr. Hadgman. Yas, Mr. Baron. tlave yo Mr. Hadgman. Yeste Mr. Barone Yesterd Mr. liadgman. Tf thi spocify, was hare. | Mr. | Mr. Mr. Baron. feing i Hadgman. Yus. Baron. Have yo f Mr. MNedgqman. | don’t quite -- I have heard those, TOP SECRET > JWIN came from, andffrcncidghad bean a country in Europa? therefore it's logical. u aver heard of Project 2RRIFLF? rday. ay wos the first time you heard that nk so. And yastarday. T might nformad by ths Committas staff? vu aver heard of Frecutiva Action? that term used, and i | in the past, but it ds possible that I heard it. Mr. Baron. | auphemisin for assassination of foreign leaders? Hadgman. — ll. to my knowledge us@ it. { i Mr. develop maans iaron. It has been 39 alleged. ts Executive Action used at the CIA as 4 I think more in newspapers or more racently we i i $ I never heard anyorm: \ t Ware you aware of a Project at the CIA to | t -- strike that. To duvelop the capability of carrying out assasginations ! of foraign leaders? Me. fludgqman. 25 4 TOP SECRET Not until f talked with the Committea staff { wy