HW 532716 DoclId:327404703 Page 42 | SECRET @ _-». @ girl friend; how did they address the letter to you? I do not remember, I do not remember . . What address did you give them? City, then military unit; it is possible to write just "Military Unit so-and-so", then to so-and-so. Well, we have come to the question that I wanted to ask you -~— the Far East. And the same goes for Sovetskaya Gavan' -- "Sovetskaya Gavan', or just "military Unit 90176", There is a certain rule ~- there is no "either... or", ((Which was it -=- )) Both the city and the military unit were indicated, or only the military unit without the city? I received letters addressed both to the city and the military unit, and Simply to the military unit. And what regulations were in force? During the war, during the war.... We are not talking about war time, but.... Oh, no. We are talking about 1952, when you were in the Baltic area. If you want to talk about the war, we can go back to the war at anoter time, and I am sure you will not be able to answer me if we talk about the. war. I did not take part ((in the war)); I do not know what kind of a questio you would put to me.
HW 53716 ad 0. @ Now you are saying that you did not take part in the war; but earlier, you said that near Tuapu, you had such a fight, that the Germans.... Well, I was not in contact, I was not in contact.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) ...In this instance, I am simply talking without any particular sense of anger or offense. Well, why be angry? You are doing your job; you are working. It is another thing that you are putting out hooks; that is another thing. I do not think there are any hooks. Oh, yes; my God!= Look at your questions. Just a minute; for two days, I have been listening to you, and you always insist upon "Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray." I think that one of us is crazy. I am not crazy, but maybe I soon will be; I have been imprisoned for | 483 days.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) I have read nothing; the brain needs training, exercise. When I ask a question, you listen. Of course, if you are going to sit there and think up new stories ~- what to answer to a question and so forth ~-=- of course, you will be at your wit's end, DoclId: 327404703 Page 453
HW 53716 RET ® ~ 41 - | @ But when I do not remember, I try to remember (XG). You said earlier that the’ distance from Baltiysk to Sovetsk is 10-15 kilometers, right? | But when Sovetsk is not near Baltiysk at all... Well, Primorsk, Primorsk! How can one believe you’? What is the matter? Well, look -=- if you are going to count 10-15 kilometers, and if it is 25... you will ask, “how is that?" I have not the slightest intention of arguing about two, ten or five Kilometers, absolutely none. This is not my problem, because I... I understand; you are looking at it from the point of view that I said Sovetsk, and you look for Sovetsk, but there is no Sovetsk; so, you say, "What is he saying?" I do not have to look -=— I know where Sovetsk is. This is my next question -- there is a Sovetsk in Kalingrad Oblast; now, you tell me where it is; you should know and there was an intelligence point there. Tell me about it. ((Pause)) I do not Know, A man who has worked in the Intelligence of the Fleet, in Kalingradsk Oblast, if he insists that he was in Baltiysk, Kaliningrad, Sovetsk, -- although he changed it from Sovetsk to Primorsk.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) DoclId: 327404703 Page 44
HW 532716 SEC ~ 42 = He would know... where Sovetsk is, also, because there is a Sovetsk in Kalingrad Oblast. Then why do you confuse me, why are you confusing me? I am not confusing you; you are confusing yourself. I do not know, I do not know. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) ...There is a Sovetsk; if you worked there, then you must know; now, explain to me where it is. I do not know. I am telling you that, in my memory... Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. Why do not I see Sovetsk there? Well, I had Primorsk in mind. There... there... this place... here it is -- not on the spit, but before the spit.... If we consider that you were working... or that you held the position of senior translator-—interpreter of the Navy Intelligence Point... well, I even will imagaine for a moment that you were in Primorsk... then you should know precisely that there is a Sovetsk and there was also a Navy Intelligence Point there. Even if you were not there, you should know this through correspondence-— because these points are connected somehow. You do not have to tell memy fairy tales; please do not tell me tales. Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet, in August 1952 -- when I arrived, had only one single point; if there were any others before that, then they were eliminated. There was one in Rostock, Sassnit®, Svinemunde -- all of them were shut down. DoclId:32404703 Page 45
HW 532716 DoclId:327404703 Page 46 ~ 43 — We will talk about Svinemunde and SassnitY -- you were there and then you said that you had not been there. If we have to, we can return to that question, also. I cannot understand why you should be nervous. Why nervous? Because I am in prison; because all I can see is hooks, hooks, hooks, hooks, hooks, hooks, and a great desire to make me out as guilty; Lord knows, great accusations are being levied against me. I do not want to make you out guilty; no one wants to -= you yourself do this. Only that way, only that way.... Well, how can it be believed, when for two years you were saying -—- Sovetsk, Sovetsk, Sovetsk; 10 or 15 kilometers from Baltiysk; that is all. . Very well; show me that map once more. I do not see any reason to do so; I do not want to show you Sovetsk. We will come to it, and I will show you; I will bring you a large map. Your statement that these intelligence points were eliminted -- even if they had been eliminated, they were there, and it is an established fact, and no one makes a secret of it. What was there? Where were they? They had only one point. You tell me where. If you say that there was one point, then you were not there --~ that is what the question is about. I have nothing to say to you, because I am telling you the way I
HW 532716 DoclId:327404703 Page 47 SEC @ e remember it, the way it was left in my head. Well, you see, perhaps again you will say that I am putting out hooks for you -= today you say, ..."The way I remember"; yesterday, you insisted,.that."It was Sovetsk! that is final'", and that you received letters, "Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray". Right, right. Today, we know that there is no Primorskiy Kray, and you were not in Sovetsk. Then, how am I to.... For me, for me... even though you showed me the map... for me -- "Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray"; why? I do not know, I do not know. You know very well that in Moscow Oblast -- ((there is)) Moscow City, in Leningrad Oblast -- Leningrad, in Krasnodar Kray -~ Krasnodar, in Ryzan' Oblast -- Ryazan’, in Kaliningrad Oblast -= Kaliningrad; there never was a Primorskiy Kray there. And maybe you are confusing me on purpose? How? How for example? Well, give me that map; I will show you now ~— because Sovetsk is near, close to the sea. ((Close)) to what? Well, Sovetsk... well, where our MRP was situated, on the shore of the sea... ((Pause) ) Well, why are you smiling? What else can I do?
HW 532716 B. SECRET ~ 45 = You have completely mixed me up -- alright; think what you wish; I cannot, I cannot, I cannot do anything. I think that if we willttalk it over together and try to find a common language, I think that.... I am applying all of the strength that I have left, although there is only a little left. (1G) Well, yes, here I have lost 30, 40, 50 pounds at'a time. Well, I do not think that you think that I am to blame. No, no, no; in no case do.I blame you personally. Then, one of the reasons you have lost ((weight)) --— ((although)) you ((may)) have not lost -- is that you have been saying that you were in places where you were not. This is one of the wonderful reasons -- ((in English)) attitude. I think it is much better than there, in the Motherland. I have not done time there; of course ((it is worse there)).... ((laughs’ Are you sure that you have not done time? ((Pause)) This is the strangest question. For me, it is not strange at all -- becuase, when you speak with someone, and he cannot say where he was and so forth... he was somewhere right? I am telling where I was; a man is free, free to make a mistake. DoclId:32404703 Page 45 st
HW 53716 — SECRET © «+4. @ Free to make a big mistake (1G). And to remember... as you wish... oh... I do not remember anything -- neither the Regulations, nor the Party. I do not want to remember any Regulations. I told you the last time that, if you do not remember your Party card number, I would question where you were a Party member -~ that is true; I am telling you openly, and I am not hiding it. Right, right -- becuase I have no proof; I cannot show my Party card. If I showed you my Party card, you would say, "Oh, you can write whatever you need" -— that is why I never can prove anything to you, if you do not want to believe... I want to believe, but I cannot. I never can prove it to you, I want to believe... Listen; do you really think that I only brought the Bol'shby& Sovetsk#¥ Entsiklopediya to put you in a difficult position _- for example, with Sovetsk or Baltiysk? i brought it for one purpose, and that was -- to show you that you were making an error; it is not the way you are saying it is. If you had been in Primorskiy Kray, then my question would have been -~ in the Far East, or somewhere elset ((XG; A and B sneak at the Same time)) There was never a Primorskiy Kray in the Baltic area, If you had made an error about some village ((''Shory-Yery" -~- i.e., an imaginary "gomewhere")) , then I would not question it; but when it comes to talking about a whole oblast -- which everyone knows about, which was German territory, which since 1946 after the death of KALININ has been called Kaliningrad Oblast, but you call it Primorskiy Kray ~~ DoclId: 327404703 Page 49
HW 53716 spot —~ 4279 = then, for this reason alone, I have returned to this question three times, and I brought the encyclopedia to show it to you; I did not compile it ((the encyclopedia)). One minute, one minute... maybe -~- I do not remember ~= well, maybe the letters were addressed, "Sovetsk By the Sea (Sovetsk primorskiy)" or the devil knows what. I do not know; you were there; I was not; but, wherever I was, I know how I received letters. I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember; think what you will -= I do not remember, as I told you. It cannot be so. Again, you... perhaps you tried -- I do not know -- perhaps you really think that that is the way you wrote it -- "Sovetsk By the Sea” m= like that; but if you look at the map, there is another Sovetsk. Near Arkhlangelsk there is another Sovetsk, also, by the sea. If you write "Sovetsk By the Sea", the post office will never find it; there has to be something other ((than that)). I do not remember, I do not remember. I do not know why I remember, as I told you, "Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray". I do not Enow. One more little question -- I want you to tell me more or less precisely if you really were in the Baltic area, and for how long. I told you that I arrived there in August, and at the end of December I went on leave, Do you remember what you said earlier -- how long were you there, and how you were there? How do you explain the discrepancies. DoclId: 32404703 Page 50
HW 532716 SECRET ~ 53 - No, no, no. If you get nervous yourself, this depends only on you. It is very difficult, even for me, to talk with you, because you make such mistakes in answering questions which any schoolboy can answer. I still cannot get it in my mind, how such a person as you, with such position and status, does not know Primorskiy Kray and Kaliningrad Oblast. | Why? Explain to me? Well, I do not know, I do not know. I am telling you as I remember it -= Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray =~ the devil knows why. Right ((you are right)). Well, let me ask one more small question before you finish your cigarette. KALININ died.... Well, if they ask me in what year KALININ died.... I am not asking when KALININ died. It is not necessary to remember, I would not ask another man this question. Inasmuch as you said that your father was a Minister, who held a high position, etc., apparently he respected "grandfather" KALININ. Yes. Without doubt; whenKALININ died, were you at the funeral -- you yourself I do not remember, I do not remember, I do not remember. Your father probably was at the funeral.... DoclId:327404703 Page 56