178-10004-10112 JFK Assassination System ; Date: 8/27/20 1 Identification Form | Agency Information AGENCY: CHENEY RECORD NUMBER: — 178-10004-10112 RECORD SERIES: GENERAL SUBJECT FILE AGENCY FILENUMBER: = INTELLIGENCE--COLBY TESTIMONY/SSCIA 5/23/75 Document Information ORIGINATOR: = SCIA FROM: TO: TITLE:  “FESTIMONY OF WILLIAM COLBY, MAY 23, 1975 DATE: 05/23/1975 PAGES: 118 SUBJECTS : HARVEY, WILLIAM HUNT, E. HOWARD KENNEDY, ROBERT LANSDALE, EDWARD LAS VEGAS LAW ENFORCEMENT, WIRETAPPING MAHEU,. ROBERT OPERATION MONGOOSE ORGANIZED CRIME ROSELLI, JOHN WARREN COMMISSION, INFORMATION WITHHELD FROM ZRRIFLE [Restricted] PROUTY, FLETCHER GIANCANA, SAM EXECUTIVE ACTION CAPABILITY EDWARD, SHEFFIELD DULLES, ALLEN DOCUMENT REQUEST, CHURCH COM.’ CUBELA, ROLANDO CUBAN EXILES CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THREE TRAMPS COLBY, WILLIAM E. CLANDESTINE OPERATIONS CIA CHURCH COMMITTEE BRECKINRIDGE, SCOTT BISSELL, RICHARD ASSASSINATIONS, FOREIGN LEADERS ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES AMLASH v9.4 , 34 HY 350955 Doacld: 327117724 Page 1
JFK Assassination System Date: 8/27/20 1 Identification Form Avency Information AGENCY: CHENEY RECORD NUMBER: _ 178-10004-10112 RECORD SERIES: GENERAL SUBJECT FILE . AGENCY FILE NUMBRR : INTELLIGENCE--COLBY TESTIMONY/SSCIA 5/23/75 Decurment Information ORIGINATOR:  SCIA FROM: TO: TITLE: TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM COLBY, MAY 23, 1975 DATE: 05/23/1975 PAGES: (118 SUBJECTS : FBI TRAFFICANTE, SAM ; STURGIS, FRANK DOCUMENT TYPE: TESTIMONY CLASSIFICATION: Top Secret RESTRICTIONS: 1A; 1C CURRENT STATUS: — Redact DATE OF LAST REVIEW: — 08/09/1993 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : 1 HY 50955 Docld: 32212724 Page 2?
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nate ee on ee TESTINONY: OF: en PAGE NA a . . William E. Colby, . . 3 Director, CIA, | “=~ accompanied by ~- Scott S, Breckinridge, Ir., Deputy Inspector General., Enno Knoche, Assistant to the Director, - . George L, Cary, - ' Legislative Counsel orto aan Meh em NUMBER a a . PAGE Colby E:hibit Nos. 1, 2, and 3, cardboard-backed ' photographs, deemed Marked in an off the record discussion early in the transcript, Colby No. 4 - - oe 31 Colby No. 5 _ | 50 Colby No. 6 . 116 aaa ee = eee Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library o ud the ey {> pet oes fe anétyt a ni mete a GMa fot Md ta a d WW 50955 Docld: 327112724 Page 4
i i) ” i 4 TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. COLBY, | 5 DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY 6 7 Friday, May 23, 1975 8 . 5 . United States Senate, 10 Select Committse to Study Governmental Operations with Raspect to 11 . ae oe : Intelligence Activities, 12 oo, . Washington, PD. C. 13 . . a The Committee met, purstiant to notice at 9:15 o'clock 14 ‘ a.m., in Room 407, The Capitol Building, Senator Frank 15 ; ' .Church (Chairman) presiding. 16 Present: Senators ‘Church (presiding), Hart of Michigan, 1? ' Mondale, Huddleston, Morgan, Hart of Colorado, Mathias and 18 ; Schweiker. ; 19 . . : Also present: William Miller, Staff Director, P.A.O. 20 . t Schwarz, III, Chief Counsel; Curtis. R. Smothers, Minority 21 Counsel; William Badar, Professional Staff Member. : 22 . ; | ~-— = 3 : 23 ; - Photocopy from . . fai ORD ; Gerald FordLibrary | .* ¢ + ’ is rd 25 ja Ee tu > So wae ab rere u vet by * Ads ts PvTe ly eH, pared . yf oF bee) h > e eed ed { HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 5 c
ae . (OAL VLIULEL 420 NLALYANG Whidi come to order, 2 . Mr. Scott Breckinridge is accompanying the Director this 3 morning and may be called upon from time to time to testify. 4 For that purpose, Mr. Breckinridge, will you please stand | 5 and be sworn? 6 Do you swear that all the testimony you may give in this " i proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 8 the truth, so help you God? 9 Mr. Breckinridge. I do. 10 Chairman Church. Mr. Schwarz will commence the questionin: this morning. 1 22 g 12: Mx. Schwarz. Mr. Colby, did you have sone things you 4 . . ? . . t 413 wanted to supply to the Committee? : . } : 14 (15 16 17 18 > 19 > i 20 > 2 21 iy : 23 3 z 24 > > - Foy i yy av VA af Ty a q rae: % Photocopy from ; : a Gerald Ford Library a. Fare 25 - HY 50955 Docld: 3274117724 Page 6
LYULEY, DIRECTOR, CIA, ACCOMPANIED BY SCOTT Ss. BRECKINRIDGE, JR., DEPUTY INPSECTOR GENERAL, ENO KNOCHE, ASSISTANT VO THE DERECTOR, AND GEORGE 1. CARY, LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL Hr. Colby. I have an answer to a few of the questions that were raised at the nesting the other day and there are a couple of clarifications I would like to make, One, with’ respect to the security investigations in the United States. The question Was asked whether we ever used private investigators, and I said we normally used our’ own investigators. We have some relationships with private investigatory firms which provide cover for our investigators and, secondly, we have a few firms which we Cwn which are proprietary’if you will, whereby our investigators appear to be private. Io said that in the past it is. clear that on occasion wa did ask for private investigator firms to help us to some degree. It was usually the one that was giving us cover, and _ for reasons of ovorload we asked them to have their own people to do a fow of the investigations. My General Counsel says that this is illegal. I kave a strong aquesticen about its propriety, if not legality, and f am undertaking to review this matter to see whether we can not just eliminate that practic: entirely, continuing the preprie- tary anc continuing the ase cf private investigators as cever : ays aN, BES fw Los aot 7) rare Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 7
eu Laat 2 But I did want to clarify that. I think ‘I mentioned it 5 last time that there have been occasions on which this was 4 done. 5 Chairman Church. Mr. Colby, would you in connection with 6 your review of this matter supply the Committee with the spe- q cifics in those cases where the Agency has in fact engaged 8 private investigators to do Agency work? 9 Mr. Colby. I will certainly try to, Mr. Chairman, f 10 confess this may be a tough job to locate every case but I certainly will do my best. ums 12 Chairman Church. Will you provide the Committee with the a ° . 7s 3 . . ‘ 13 opinion of your Counsel with respect to the legality of such? 4 - F Mr. Colby. I will. : 14 “45 Chairman Church. Such use of private investigators Mr. Colby. Yes. 16 HS Chairman Church. And then I would ask the staff also 17 . furnish the Committee with a brief on that question so thet we 18 ; . are~fully advised with respect to the law. 2 19 . 3 Mr. Colby. Right. 5 20 ° The second subject, Mr. Chairman. Senator Mondale asked 8 zl , é , for our command and control regulations for the approval of z p22 an covert action projects. These were supplied to the staff on e 23 = the first of May and are available to the staff. : 24 ° Yhirdly, £ was asked if Mr.-William Harvey was removed e 29 q@- FSR, C ie FE ¢ CAPE ep na - & Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library, HW 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 6
10 Li 12 13 14 15 16° 1? 18 19 20 21 from the Agency because of his involvement in the assassinatioy, plans ‘against Prime Minister Castro. . os Pier The facts ares “that in June 1963 he was assigned as: our: = © chiet of sha | and in | February of '67 he was ..- 7s: reassigned to CIA Headquarters. He retired voluntarily under our retirement system on 31 of December 1967. | If I may, there is a reason why he was taken out and if I could go off the record and mention that to the Committee. It is a matter of his privacy. Chairman Church. Very well, off the record. (OfE£ the record discussion) Mr. Colby. - Back on the record. Senator Schweiker asked me whether Howard Hunt or Janes McCord were in charge of Mexican overations at the time of President Kennedy's assassination on 22nd of November '63. . Howard Hunt from July '62 to August '64 was assigned as a Section Chief in the Division of Plans Directorate, which is now the Operations Directorate at CIA Headquarters, which had ¢ = no responsibility whatsoever for Mexican operations. Senator Schveiker. What were those dates again? Mr. Colby. July '62 to August ‘64. = City and in charge of that © ffice?- Mr. Knoche. Way back in the '50's he served in Mexico . ; . ‘ VN ‘City. Way back. He was not in-charge. 2 ec’ Photocopy from meta EY ESTA es " PY U Kw? rae a La Nes vee | I > 2 Senator Schweiker. Wasn't he at some point in Mexico | Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 9
_ id il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 p2 23 24 25 Affairs. Mr. CODY. He Was & Case orticer then. Senator Schweiker. So that is the period you are Saying he had no jurisdiction in any way with Latin America or Mexicar oa Mr. Colby. Wo, he was in what we call, and we have since changed the name, to Domestic Operations Division at that time, our operations here in this country, and that is a whole different subject I would have to explain some day. and he had no responsibilitics for Mexican operations at that point. Senator Morgan last time asked what information was given to the Warren Commission concerning Agency assassination plans concerning Castro, and I have been advised our records do not indicate that the Warren Commission was provided with inforna-| tion on this subject. Allen Dulles, of course, I would nots, who was the CIA Director until the fall of ‘61, was a member of the Warren Commission, but beyond thet fact I have nothing I could offer. And then who made the decision not to provide. it, if none was given? our records do not indicate that there was a CIA decision on this matter not to tell the Warren Commission, I could add that I believe the relationship with the Waren Commission was handled by one ef our stafSsToRwhich ; 4 “ Photocopy from ~ is 2 Gerald Ford Library FOP ara maces ; Sf HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 10
we ree MLV AL WULLE LENCO LY ~ .t = 1. a PA I cannot’ say that for sure, but I know the compartmentation 3 system was such. 4 | Chairman Church. What was the name of the CIA agent who 5 was given the responsibility for liaison between the CIA and 6 the Warren Commission? | ” Mr. Colby. To my Knowledge it is Mr. Raymond Rocca. 8 Chairman Church. there is it now? 9 "Mr. Colby. He retired at the end of December of last year. 10 He remained working for us for a few months. I think he is hi vetired. I think he is retired. I believe he is’ still in ae the Weshington area. | 13 Mr. Knoche. Yes, he is still working with us. rv Mr. Colby. Still working with us to help on the transi~ 15 tion of the whole counter intelligence program. ~~ 16 Chairman Church. why did he retire? WW ; Mr. Colby... That was the Angleton case, Mr. Chairman, and | 18 the facts of that case ware that I had had some professional 19 | aitfetencés in the organization with Mr. Angleton as to the 20 way the counterintelligence business was run and the way the 21 Israeli “account was handled. I believed that it required a 22 higher degree of coordination of the other ¢lements of the 4 23 Directorate and of the Agency. We had debated this on various 24 eccasions in the past. I did reorganize that staff in 1973 anc 25 took a number of functions way from it. The PETER ED ch? fs “el Photocopy from ine Py Faeyr “y Gerald Ford Library aarey “— Pm | x Vs ee : nd “ abe ata ia ou Af - HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page il
- hte oe f p endeavored to open up the Israeli account to a better relaticn- ship with our cther Near Eastern activitics. We debated this 3 over many months and on several occasions. We could never 4 . really agree to it because he insisted on the importance of 5 . retaining it where it was. 6 Mr. Angleton had done a very good job of establishing that 7 liaison years ago and knew a lot of the senior Israeili who 8 : were involved in it. 9g . I believed there was inadequate coordination in the Arab 10 areas. ii ’ , . . ‘ ‘ 4 . Also, I believed that there was a undue degree of compart-+ 12 . mentation of that staff, that it needed more interchang 13 . our other divisions. We debated this and discussed it and 14 ; . set as my time limit for this discussion the end of December 15 because there were some very substantial retirement benefit 16 that people would loose if they stayed after that point. Th 17 unfortunately the Seymour Hirsh article of December 22nd cans 18 ; ° to.our Attention before it was actually published, and so I 19 Lo brought Mr. Angleton up and said that I was going to make two 20 . -basic decisions. I was going to move the Israeli account from 21 ; his control and I was going to put some sucessor leadership | 22 \ into the Head of the Counterintelligence Staff. I said I woul 23 , offer him a post of tying together some counterintelligence 24 , . doctrine, he could stay working with us. He did not have to 25 : fe TORS Photocopy from ~ 42 7 Gerald Ford Library tae Ty C2 Tsuen rae ist = yo sia wo ie wa hoe \i wy a HW 50955 Docld: 32112774 Page i2
HW 50955 Gt na 10 il 12 |, 13 14 ‘As 16. 17 18 L9 20 21 22 20 24 25 AuearGe 44 HY Wioucd TO retire the opportunity was there, ; one chose-to retire. I insisted that zt talk to him before the Seynour Hirs- article appeared... I knew it was coming. I didn't know what it was going to say. I wanted to make cloar between him.and me that the decision was based upon our long~ standing discussion of how ‘to run that particular activity. The question then came up who would be his successor and Mr. Rocca was his Deputy. There were two other officers who were possibilities. Ona of the officers, Mr. Hood, had said in early Dec ember that he .planned to retire at the end of December. The other two, Mx. Rocca and Hr. Miler, were infornela that they would not be the successor Chief of that staff, They were offered a chance to stay on in their then current jobs, They chose to retire. All four of them agreed to stay with us on a consultant basis over the next several months to hslip us on the transition of new leadership into that job, and they have done so. Chairman Church. Well, without getting off the track, I e just have one further questicn here in connection with My. Angleton himself. Is it true that he is still being paid as a consultant? Mx. Colby. I believe it has dropped of f,. Mr. Chairman. . Re did help us for three or four montks but I believe that it is terminated. It is about time to terminate it, I know, and whether it is on this particular date has ~ te TNS Weare Paes a si 6% ae avis act Nest dak tf é Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library ? Docld: 321123774 Page 13
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10 1 ‘12 13 14 15 16 17 18 i9 20 el 22 235 24 We set ourselves about six month period where we would heve to aan we | | a t } ‘ ~ Chairman Church. There is no. plan to retain him indefj~ nitely? * Mr. Colby. Absolutely not. It was to help us get over this transition and phase him out.- Chairman Church. Very well. Senator Mondale: I asked for vouchers on bayments with espect to assassinations? Mr. Colby. I am looking for that. I don't have an answe for you yet, Senator, The request was also made whether we had any information concerning plots to assassinate Chou En Lai. We have reports of two such examples, incidents, both conducted by thse Chiness ' participation. i i Nationalists without our prior knowledge and without our One in Aptril 1955, an Air In@ia aircraft crashed at sea off Indochina after departing from Hong Kong. Several Chinese communist delegates for the Bandung Conference were on board and it had been rumored that Chou En Lai would he on the aircraft. On the llth of January 1956, the British Colonial Offic? | in Londen issued an official statement yeporting they had evidence that the Chinese Nationalists had bribed a Hong kong airpert amployee to place a time hemb on at Photocopy from m3 2s, [3 (PPR ON peas Gerald Ford Library li Goi WO ena souk d HY 50955 Docld: 32112724: Page 15
an van Gl an 10 11 12 13 14 15 1? 18 19 | 20 21 ee ON ee en ee re me me eg re ey ot te Re am noe Sem et ee Ne Re ee A LD and the US for sabotaging the aircraft. The aircraft enployee had fled to Taiwan. We had nothing to do with that incident and frankly heard about it after it occurred. In the.fall of 1956, a senior Chinese Nationalist 6fficiall ne informed an officer of CIA that a Chinese National planned to assassinate Chou En Lai during his visit to Cambodia in November ‘56 and had been thwarted by the Cambodian arrest of the Chinese Nationalist officer sent to Phnom Penh to supervis the attempt. We learned of this after it had happened and ve had nothing to do with it. " We had a relationship with the Chinese Nationalists intelligence Service over the years and they clearly have done things without our knowledge er involvement, and in a number of areas, but we have also worked together on sone areas. These are two that were separate. Also I was: asked to look at the vhotographs of Howard Hun and Sturgis that appeared in.Nowsweek some years ago. We obtained this photograph from the FBI last night about 5 otclieck. We had not had it before. We had a copy of the Newsweek edition. | These are photcgraphs of Howard Hunt in 19498, 1950 and — L961. This is the only photograph we have of Mr. Sturgis. It is taken out of the Newsweek. We have had no connection with Mr. Sturgis and so we hav2 er , ot Le FORO * a he oe) 7 nares 3 “ . (foot ok 7d i i < se ‘ a s . & \x ” 79 econo CRE Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library ‘, HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 16
10 12 12 13 14 15 WW 50955 16. 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 | 25 | | Tone ea peveuyeepiay, BU LE LS SUDJOCct to the problems of it, We had our photographic experts and analysts and so forth look at these two individuals here who were picked up. We examined them in’ considerable detail, and talking about the "61L Hunt photograph, comparing it with this, and this is the photograph ,Newsweek pkhotegraph. You will see that there is a lot of sorto¢ fundamental differences in the kinds of | app2arances they have, different characteristics of the individuals. With respect to Sturgis, of course, we are not as confi- dent because we don't have as good a base to work fron in cur * comparison but at the same time we see differences there also. Now, wa further looked, had one of our disguise people -- we obviously have people who can disguise you -="the rea wig eipisode.. It wasn't red, they insist, Lt wasn't ill fitting, - That is the thing that chey get upset donut. But they say that a it would not be feasible to have them actually in a disguiss, have these individuals actually in this disguises, that it is toobig a jump, it differs. Senator Huddleston. How about the size of the individual are they pretty close? Mr. Colby. These two are. He looks like a shorter man from the surroundings. And Hunt is about medium height, ratho 4 * chan this short. Hr. Knochs. Hunt is five feet ten and a half Photocopy from as - pers * Gerald Ford Library, ESD CITES Z 4 Sat ly a Waawahe G3 é Docld: 321123774 Page 17
10 Li 12 (213 14 15 16 17 18 HY 50955 19° 29 21 23 24 25 ne a a wood A UL and LY SAS And tney really were able to do a pretty good job on Nunt and, what they do is identify certain key points, make measurements and put adjust- ments, the same thing we do for the satellite photography in terns of these measurements, and things like that, and compare it in that sense, and their conclusion: is that clearly. this is not Hunt. They are absolutely confident that this photograph is not. Hunt. They are less confident that it is not Sturgis because of the base on which they are operating, but they thin! it is not. | | I point out that this analysis was done overnight, about 3 o'clock in the morning. . This is Sturgis. Mr. Schwarz. And to the right?- Mr. Colby. This is a newspaper photograph of Hunt, a recent one. These are sort of Agency photegraphs of him when he was an employee. Senator Hart Of Colorado. Were those men ever identifisea by the Dallas Police? “ Mx. Colby. They must have booked them or something if they carried them in. I really don't know. If they took them in I would assume they would have had to book them. Senator Hart of Colorado. that are theses pictures on the lower right and leit? * Mr. Colby. These are the blowups of the particular o, . fus - Vas ° orn photographs. on x . band . Oh Lo . = ai ab Gerald Ford Library 9“ SS 9 Ae a Nit aN a a Decld: 32112774 Page 18
Senator Hart of Colorade. Not the one you had sarlier? w- 2 Mr. Colby. They are different. 5 Senator Hart Of Colorado. They ar2 different angles? 4 Mr. Colby. This is reversed. 5 Senator Hart of Colorado, Thoy are different photogra DS? 6. Mr. Colby. It is reversed. : a Senator Hart Of ‘Colorado. No. They are.not A and B ever 8 reversed. 9 Mr. Colby. . They can do that kind of a turn through the - 10 Senator Hart of Colorado. They can twist the photccraphs wD aound? Le Mr.-Colby.. They can ‘make it appear at a different angie. 13 Senator Hart of Colorado. : B at least is a totally dif- “| feront pose. They turned his mouth down. His cyes are closed 15 They have really done a job if. they changed B to that lower 16 right. HP Cp peg e . — ge Photocopy from E Pees : wah ka le ij Gerald Ford Library 17 : Mr. Colby. They can chans 2 them, honest. 18 Let me get my brief on that and I will answer that - . 19 question. 20 . They magnified them to the same scale using the eves and 21 mouth. The contrast and texture differences were minimized, 22 continuous tone photographs employed and angular compensations ' . . 23 were. made to offset errors incident to the different heads. 24 “hey can mix them sround in that kind of fashion. 25 Senater Sctweibor. Ware thes2 men cetainta? If they vcxe HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 19
10 11 12 ‘13 14 1S 16 1? 18 19 20 el 23 25 detained maybe there are photographs from their detention. Were these men arrested? ~ Mr. Colby. At the time we have had to work on this we haw just looked at the photographs. Senator Schweiker. I assume that is where they are going to bea detained. | | Mr. Schwarz. Wasn't tke same analsysis done for the Rockefeller Commission about two months ago? In other words, there has been an analysis at least once before last night, hasn't there? Oo Mx. Knoche. Not by us. Mr. Colby. ‘Perhaps by someone else. Chairman Church. Mr. Director, that is a difforent photograph. Mr. Colby. It does look like it. Io will answer that question next time I come up. Chairman Church. All right. How can we follow up on tt 7 identity of these two people in connection with the Dallas. Police? — Would that be done through the FBI? Mx. Colby. FBI. I could ask or you could ask, it might be better if you ask. Chairman Church. Well, I think we should. I think these should be marked as Committse Exhibits and staff should b2 instructed to follow through with the FBI to get what further information there may be ahout the Photographs and these tro co . KT EORD Photocopy from fa C, . “8 soy a ( cs ok 5 ™ eo . : id 3 Gerald Ford Library tie > ae [2 si - >| HY 50955 DBocld: 32112724 Page 26
~ h ‘ { yO Senator Schweiker. Did you get the other photogra, the - supposed Oswald photograph leaving the Embassy? 5 4 Mr. Colby. i don't have that with me. It is in the 5 Warren Commission published report, It is in there, 6 Senator Schweiker. It is in there? , | Mr. Colby. Yes. It was cropped slightly in oréer to 8 conceal where it was taken but it was -- 9 Senator Schweiker, It is in the Warren Commission? io Mr. Colby. ° Yes, it is in the Warren Commission. 11 Just one additional matter. + 12 *" Chairman Church. Just one thing I would like to say to you, Nr. Colby, before I forget it. You have made reference 13 14 to the Israeli account and the special way that it had been ‘is handled under Mr. Angleton. Before we finish our review with 1é you of covert operations we would like to have a more detailed statement of that matter. 17 Mr. Colby. Right. 18 ; 19 “ Chairman Church. And I think you should prepara to 20 discuss it with us and we will have further questions to ask you in connection with it. 21 I just wanted to give you notice, 2 ; 93 Mr. Colby. Right. In our lexicon it doesn't count as a 5 covert action but that is all right, no problem, I will cover 4 ; 25 photocopy FOr | Gerald Ford Libre WEA EY ESE ES SP 5 Nu ki? hee was tye tha R) HW 50955 Docld: 321127274 Page 21
“2 oo 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 -20 al 22 24 25 Vhedaietn CNULCH. ALL raght. At some point thén in our investigation? ~ Mr. Colby. Sure, no problem. The only other ene thing I would like to suggest for the record, Hx. .Chairman, with respect to the discussion of the attempts made against Mr. Castro, in no way justifying them, My position on this is quite clear. Tf do think it important’ to put that exercise in the context of the times, which was the times of the: Bay of Pigs, which was a decision made by—|_ the Government. The Cuban missile crisis, and following that, a program approved by our normal covert action approval mecha-~ nism to try to generate an overthrow of Mr. Castro from within Cuba by assisting various groups to go in with Sabatage and by putting economic pressure en the country, and so forth. That went on for a number of years after the 1961-62 episodes and toward Mr. Castro that is an important factor in evaluat-_ ing the thing, without in any way justifying the particular th attempts to assassinate him. Senator Hart of Michigan. But was there any evaluation ‘done at or about the time of thet Cuban missile crisis? Mr. Colby. There was an evaluation done after the Bay of Pigs, a rather intensive Investigation Internal Security Branch Review of the activity and then the Cuban missile erisis came along shortly thereafter before anything very much ; : ZOO so ri - fe a Photocopy from ( PES y fo Cy" mye ee Hah (E . J Gerald Ford Library mS ada ia iy . e 4 HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 22
10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 235 410 First Streot, $.£., Wasnington, 0.0. 20005 295 - 34 and have been against it for a long time, but nonetheless get going. Mhoreafter, however, a numper Or programs wer ‘conducted, which I am sure the Committse might want a gencral summary of. I am just giving you one sort of a paragraph summary of it, which were aimed at putting economic pressure on Cuba in the hopes that this would put pressure against him and lead to its disorder and problems there and, secondly, tc .- encourage revolutions, sabotage and so forth, from within Cuba through a variety of programs of propaganda, support of exile movements, landing of teams on the coast, things of this nature. Chairmen Church. The difficult with this is, as I see it _ ert erent although what you say is true, once an agency begins tcve Sirsa zs in assassination attempts the disease spreads. Your own testimony shows it spread at least as far as the Dominican Republic and we are going to get into closer questions on other matters such as Lmumba and Chile So that T-don't think this issue can be confined really “: to the emergency that did in fact exist between the US and Cuba and the seriousness of that emergency at the time Mr. Colby. I agree with you, tir. Chairman. I am against I think in fairness to the people involved at that period I think it is important to give total content. Chairman Church. Yes. Photocopy from ' slaty ney cents Ap mers : Gerald Ford Library ‘f Rte a want Usa led sia ‘ i HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 23
LO li 12 13 L4 15 16. 1? 18 19 20 21 22 24 25° to determine, assuming internally the cia might have contemplats additional efforts to assassinate Castro after the Bay of Pigs, after the missile crisis, it would not have acted unless direct by the very highest authority, would it? Mr. Colby. That is not that. clear, Senatér Yart. I thin the evidence we have is that the then Director was not aero | of some of these activities and, therefore, one would havo a very difficult tine saying that it was pursuant to a specific authorization. It was consistent with an overall policy which was the point Iwas saying, but nonetheless I think the spe-~ cific action we cannot say was approved even within the Agency “at the Director level. Senator Hart of Michigan, Is there any indication that the Director, who did know of at least an earlier attempt --~ is there any indication that following the Bay of Pigs, or ' following the missile crisis, he explicityly brought the sub- ject uD for review? ” Mr Colby. There is one documentary evidence that Mr. McCone dictated in 1967, I believe it was, in which-he recount d -being informed of a meeting, of an inter-Agency meeting at which the subject of assassination was raised, and he made a particular point of indicating after the. meeting -- he was not at the meeting; I believe, but he heard of the meeting and he made a particular point of saying. he disapproved of this Photocopy from : rian) PP © O ' 2gae apy Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 24
; i and did not agrea with it, to the other members H 3 2 Senator Hart. of Michigan... Who was'at that necting veto, é ) heard about? . : 4 | Mr. Colby. vhat was the meeting we were talking about at 5 the last session. 6 Mr, Schwarz. You brought up a new document which was Mr. 9 McCone's dictation of recollection of ‘67, 8 | Mr. Colby. Yes; I think you have that. 9 Mr. Schwarz. that I have not seen, I know we do not 10 have that. 1 Mr. Colby. I am sorry, I thought you did. ; 12 7 Mr. Schwarz. Could that be supplied? 2 . ; 13 ~ Mr. Colby. No problems, yes. This is our document and - a < 14 Chairman Church. Will you Supply the Committee with the 15 document? 16 | - Mr. Colby. Yes. 1? - Excuse me,-I beg your pardon. He states in '67, at one 18 of these meetings, about this time, I recall a suggestion made , 19 being made to liquidate top people in the Castro regime, — ‘. 20 including Castro. I took immediate exception to this sugge on : 21 Stating that the subject was completely out cé& bounds as far as _ ‘90 the US Government and CIA were concerned, The idea should not ei . 23 be discussed nor should not be discussed nor should aN 3 24 in any papers. | , a) Sh 5 ; bes = : 25 Scnator Nondizle. Mr. Colby, the other day when you ae o. - - ee Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Decld: 32112724 Page 25
1 tastified there was a momorandum that you gave us from fr think 2 ‘Mr. Osborn, which objected to a memorandum by General Landsdalc 5 which referred to assassinations of political leaders, in a 4 memorandum regarding Operation Mongoose, which Was Cuba. And 5 it referred to an attached memorandum which I think you said ad ms Ww he operty of the FBI. . | | 1. as t prop y boa 3B CT 7 Mr. Colby. Of the National Security Council. 3 Senator Mondale. NSC, 9 I gather you have a copy of that, but you don't fsel authorized to let us see it? 10 uu ; Mr. Colby. I do have a copy of it. The understanding . 12: we hava had with tha other agsncies is that each of us gives our own material but we refer to the other agency for any 13 Gocuments belonging to the other agency. Chairman Church. Well, it is very difficult for the 15 . Committee to operate that way. I think that sinca the Committe. 16} - is entitled to this information, that when it is pertinent 1? . and as we proceed in our hearings from ona subject to another, 18 . we ought to ba able to secures the information without having 19 . . to go back through executive channels. 20 Mr. Colby. May I undertake to get the permission +o give a1 7 . it to you? I will undertake to do this today. Chairman Church. Any observations that: the Committee 23 wishes to maks on this kind of a problem? 24 . It is the first vime it has come ‘up. ss Te eT “'s eye AMS Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 76
Senator Hart of Colorado. Is this the understanding we # I have had or not? 5 " Mr. Schwarz. it has been 2 total frustration to the staff 4 and I am very happy it has come up here because we get chased S around ths corner by one agency to another. It is called the aa "third agency ‘rule * It was intended to have nothing to do 7 with Congressional hearings. Obviously, it had to do with 6 declassification to the public, and it. has happened to completel 9 delay our ability to get information bacause we go at one agency 101 ana then they determine that it really isn't their document | it or it mentioned somes other agency, and then we have to go to 12 the other agency. - 15 This is an example of how frustrating it is. 14 Senator Mondale. Have we | trie@ to gat this document from 15) tha NSA? 16 Mx. Colby. No; this particular document had just coms up 1? on Wednesday -- 18 . Senator Schweiker. Does ‘the counsel have any suggestions 19 as to what he feals the Committees position should be in this 20 1 area to enable him and staff to do an effective job? te eee meee 4 21 Mr. Schwarz. I think the Committae's position ought to be ee that pertinent information should bs produced by any agency 29 1 that nossesses it, and if thay wish to inform another agency BR PN Orang mtannag ne a4 that thav are aning it, then that is their business. But I awe oy aNabs Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 27
ste ewes oe HY 50955 10 1l 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 a4 25 4 Senator Mondale. Apparently this meno L£ron Nelone refers back to the meeting about which Osborne memorandun J the Lansdale -~ a ir. Colby. The series of two or thres meetings at that time, yes. .. Senator Mondale. I think this is Very important because apparently this was a meeting at which MeNemara and Rusk were present, and apparently McCone was present, so we had all of the top principals. Mr. Colby. & least ona of them. _cenator Mondale. And they discussed assassinations at that meeting. And then Osborne cama back with a memo which is now part of the record. | Mr. Colby. I think it is Edwards in that case. Harvey, excusa Me. | Senator Mondale. Harvey. He came back with 2 memo which the Director Supplied, objecting not to the assassination but to putting it in writing. | Chairman Church. Of course what wa don't know is whether the assassination or subject-6f assassination that caine@ up at this meeting was conjecture or whether it had to do with a revelation of actual attempts thet had involved the CIA or that it had to do with an Ongoing assassination effort by the Photocopy from rn ‘ . ne a r 3. 93 3 Senator Mondale. Yes. | Gerald Ford Library aN . . . e ix =) beth? Qowbs et il . eS o Decld: 32112774 Page 28
HY 50955 10 11 12 13 14 15 16. 1? 18 19 20 21 22 a) 25 Docld: 32112724 gets out of the compartment it might give problems | particular case if something particularly sensitive is involved Chairman Church. All we know is the subject of assassina- tions dpparently came up in the course of the meeting. te Mr. Colby. Mr. Chairman, as one of the agencizs involved, if I could offar one explanation for the third Agency Rule even in this ‘circumstance. And I. am particularly interested in this because sometimes our documents have material whose sensitivity is not apparent on the face and we assume that this will be handled in certain compartmented channels, and if it that the individual at the other end wasn't aware of. That is the basis for the: rule. The thought being go back and ask the originator, and he has a feeling for that and could make the Chairman Church. I would suggest, Mr. Colby, without binding tha Committee to a precedent, with respect to dealing with the Third Party Rule, that in this case you undertake to secure from the NSA -- Mr. Colby. I will. w Chairman Church. ~- its. permission to turn this particular document over to tha Committes so it may be made a part of these hearings. Mr. Colby. I will endeavor to do that today, Mr. Chairman from Senator Senator Morgan. I am going to inquire Mondale what memorandum were you reading about McCone and the group being prese::t? Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Page 29
Senator Mondale. We heve a mamorandum, it is Tight hex N ies, 2 ® from Mr. Harvey. Do I have the wrong ons? Yes, it is dated, I will show it to you, in which he 4 . objects to -- Chairman Church. What is the date of it? 6 . 7 Le Senator Mondale. 14 August 1962, . 7 | Senator Morgan. Do we heave that? 8 . Mr. Schwarz. It was shown to us on Wadnesday, marked 9 ; : Or deemed marked as part of the record, and returned to the CIA 10 — | who returned it to us today. 11 = — Mr, Colby. I have another copy of it. Senator Mondale. It rafars to a Meeting in Mr. Rusk's 15 office at which presumably. McNamara and Rusk, I gather from tha 14 1 dater memo, and McCone Ware praesent, and it says this. —_]|. is "I called Lansdale's offices and in his absance pointseret_ 16 to Frank Head the inadmissibility ana Stupidity of putting this 1? typs of comment in writing in a document. The words he objscted 18 fT to were: including liquidation of leaders. I advised him as 19 far as CIA was concerned we would write no document pertaining 20 to this and would participate in no open meating to discuss el secs \ ee I read that to mean wa will go ahead and do it but we don't a5 want anything in writing and don't want to be in @ Meeting where e4 1 it is going oO liak. That mates e lot of Senge3. Ne living 7 29 | politicicn wants to bs assoeicted with an assassination, #v8r, HER OW copy men rn Photocopy from wey: 2 tthe I. fo PORN Gerald Ford Library : HY 50955 DBocld: 32112724 Page 36
10 12 12 13 44 4s 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22, ' 23 24 25 HY 50955 Oo I" if he wants someone assas Sinated, I think that is common Sense.) That is why I think these documents are so crucial. Chairman Church. Of course they are crucial and we must have thom. The ambiguity, however, that we have yet to clear up is in the third Paragraph, Senator Nondale, where the memorandum reads the question of assassination, Particularly of Pider———~_ Castro, was brought up by Secrétary McNamara at «meeting SE the special group augmanted in | Secretary Rusk's office in August. — It was the obvious consensus at that meeting, in answer to a comment by Mr, Ed Murrow, that this is not a subject “Which has been made a matter. of official record, the subject being the question of assassination, Now, that leaves us stild without any documentary proos that it was revealed at this Reeting that the CIA was in fact engaged in an effort to assassinate, Senator Mondale. Was Lansdale working for the CIA at this tina? ° Mr. Colby. Pardon? Senator Mondale. Was General Lansdale working for the CIA at this time? Mr. Colby. General Lansdale was Assistant te the Secretary of Defense, not CIA, at that time. aT . qe a A Senator Mondale. Had Lansdale been with the CIA? ERAL ~~ . . . + Mr. Colby. He was with cra in about 1952 to about TR55 bey i ed | Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Doelda: 321127274 Page 31
10 i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18° 19 20 210 22 24 25 | more ox less. . Senator Mondale. DPuring tha Philippines--- Mr. Colby. During the Philippines and in Vistnam at that time. Then he left CIA. He was a regular Air Force officer all this time but he was assigned to CIA for the time he was. in the Philippines and the time he was in Vietna‘n. Ha than reverted to the Air Force and was an Assistant to the Secratery of Defense until about 1964 or 1965, ‘Then he went. out to Vietnam where he was an Assistant to the Ambassador, not working for CIA. We were associated with him but he was not a CIA officer at that time. Senator Mondale. Do wa know what his job at the Pentagon was? | | Mr. Colby. It was Assistant to the Secretary of Deferse, Iocan't tell you exactly what the job was entitled but he was active in the Secretary of Defense's Darticipation in a variety, you might call it a 40 Committee type of operation, I think he probably was most cognizant of the various 40 Committee -- Senator Mondale. If he were involved with that, ha would have close liaison with all members of the 40 Committes, . fa. F028 a) f including the CIA? j~ % Mr. Colby. Yes, sir.. , S Y UY Chairman Church. I would like te call your attention ales to this Sentence. , Photocopy from 4 UME eS ry CoP sey et wT Gerald Ford Library i elt cutaXs beta a HW 50955 Docld: 32112774 Paye 32
HW 50955 GS 10 Li 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19, 20 “RL 22 24 25 I ‘took careful notes on the comments at this meeting on this point and the special group augmented in not expecting any written comments or study on this point. Thare, again, the ambiguity. It is within the range of the possible that one of the ongoing efforts of the CIA was in fact raised and discussed. poe It is also possible that the guestion of assassinating Fidel Castro -- Senator Mondale. Do we have those notes? Chairman Church. I was going to ask that. And that it was agreed that no study or review of this should be’submitted as an abstract Matter, should ba submitted in written form. - 4 So we are left without’ an enswer to this question. However, with respect to the notes that are referred to here, can you tell aus whether thosa notes exist? Mr. Colby. ‘fT don't know of any, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Church. He said he took careful notes. ” Mr. Colby. I don't know of any but I certainly will look. oh Mr. Breckinridge. When we reviewed this problem in 1967 | . ° : 4 “n. ¥ogs ~ we found no such notas fo 7 oy Zh beef Senator Huddleston. Let me inject a thought or two along this line It seers to me Like ons of the things we ate going 70 havs to a@stermlina as we go clon: lsu as to what extent there was OF ort . ap "yar WPAN See arc Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library a cake Docld: 321123774 Page 33
HW 50955 Gl LO il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 20 al 22 295 24 a) there is a standard operating vorocedurs of your Agency an e effort not to make notes, an effort. for certain individuals not to have certain. knovledge by design. For instance, I was reading your menorandun here dated 1 June 1973 in which you are reporting on a meeting that occurre You make a point to say that you briefed someons orally. Tha word “orally" is in there -- assuming that for the purposa someone should know that you did not put anything in writing or you did not give hin a written report. -You also say that I personally managed to avoid gaining any knowledge of what precise actions were teken I think a reasonable inference there is that there is a deliberate on your part hera 77 and maybe this is standard Operating procedure -+ for you not to get specific information so that you always will be in the position of not knowing scome- thing. Mr. Colby. ‘I don't recognize tha reference. Certainly, if think in past years there ware situations we did not want - to commit to writing. CP aie There is a great deal of effort made by us to what w call compartment information so that it is known only to certain people and not known to others. The compartment is still to be open at the top, hewever. pte Thers are things that © purposely try not to know. I don't want to know the nemz of an agent in the Soviet Union. I have PES S Cee t 4oy ad *as be ba Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Docld: 321123774 Page 34
~ absolutely no desire to learn his name because I don't need e to know that information. S Senator Huddleston. ifere we are referring to action in 4 this case and not individuals. 6 Mr. Colby. I don't recognize that. 2 could perhaps put sy 6. it in context if I could sea the memorandum. | 7 Me. Schwarz. Perhaps we ought to mark that memorandum. 8 Senator Huddleston. Memorandum for Mr. William E. Colby. ? I thought it was by Hr. Colby. 10 Mr. Colby. ram sorry. ii Senator Huddleston. Somsona within the Agency apparently 121 Gs informing you-about sométhing and the subject is special 15 activities. I don't see a name on it. 14 It has information in it about both the President and is Attorney General being involved in briefings. 16 Mr. Schwarz. I think for convenience of reference we i7 ought to mark it as an exhibit. (18 Let}s number as today's number, ana wea have put in the “a 19. three charts so far, and wa will call this, which is the’ 1 7 \ ceeeronamen 20 June 1973 memorandum for Mr. William E. Colby, subject special Te 21) activities, from stamped pages 00457, 00458, and 00459, of 22 1 the so-called 694 pages. , ~ i : ’ ‘ 23. - (The Gocument above referred to was” 24 “marked Colby Pxhibit tio. 4.) 25 Mr. Colby. 2 vecognize what that is, Sena tor Nuddleston. | POD We 4 oes eanren| | Photocopy r Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 35
FRO QIN ED Re eS we 10 11 12 13 wee ater wm 8 ewan 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 : 21 : 22 25 25 ‘The reason it was addressed to William E. _ Colby is we were going through that period in the middle of 1973 where fr ~™ was technically, I guess, Director of Operations but had been nominated to bacoms Director, This was the kind of thing that normally would be addressed to the Director but we had an Acting Director, General Walters, but it was pretty clear I was responsibla for making the machinery run and we had a lot of things around the Agency addressed to me and signed by me. I believe this follows a conversation I had with a Mr. Walter Eldar, who was an Assistant to Mr. John McCone -- he was Executive Assistant when he.was Director -- I think Mr. Elder told me that there were certain things that he knew of in the background that related to this effort of identifying various questionable activities of the Agency, and I asked him to go write them down so wa could get them into the ‘Inspector General's report. Senator Nuddlsston. Tha only question I raise, I don't want to get off into the contents ofa particular memoranaunm, ~ but the context with the area you ware pursuing, just whether or not standard’ operating procedure would require at times there be a deliberate avoidance by certain peopla in the Agency of facts and whether or not there is a great body of decisions that are made and implemented without anything writtes Gown, $0 that there would never be any documentary evidenca — tox ON Ye of it? HAL gy wes Photocopy from Pema ne rire cp fy itera ‘ on | Gerald Ford Library ) Bes ai 223 herpe ua (. HY 50955 Docld: 327112724 Page 36
10 11 120 13 14 15 16 L7 18 19 20 el 22 20 24 Clear that.the assassination story was essentially kept ort Mr. Colby. Well, I think that you certainly can say that there {5s an avoidance by a lot of people of learning things ™~ that they are not authorized to know. Iomean the more loyal in a sense of our employees, say chat they have authority to know what it ‘going on in, Say, Cuba, they don’t have a right to know what is going on in, sav, China, and they rather carefully keep ‘themselves froin Learning what is going on in China. I think that is a prevalsenca. I think the question you are asking, however, is whether we are trying to keep activities off of paper and it is pratt ¥ the paper « ‘And I would think that is about the only one. No, the | drug thing. I assume some of that was kept off of paper? Mr. Breckinridge. Yas. Mr. Colby. fhe lesson that I have frequently given to my colleagues in ‘the bureaucracy is that however hard you try to keep it off of paper, you will not succeed in a bureaucracy, somebody will write it down and, therefore, it is a totally feckless exercise to pretend that you can keep it secret by sot writing it down. But the fact is there were Situations in which a conscious effort was made in the past to keep things off the record. . Senator Huddleston. .-To sum up, you, as Director, exception of individual nasss for which there would be no Ls. rae Be) OE 95a for aye ta) EO 5 cnet rer Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 37
HW 50955 10 il le. 13 14 15 16, 17 18 19 20 24 295 You have got to-let me know the things I ought to know. And particular value to you and no advantage to you knowing, except for that you make no deliberate 2ffort not to know about operations? 7 Mr. Colby. No. As a matter of fact, I take the opposite position, Senator. I Say that to my subordinates and have xeiterated a number of times, I cannot be subjected to surprisa. Vo I have undertaken the same obligations to my oversight comnitt for example, that I am responsible getting to them before they hear about‘ it.some place else. Senator Huddleston. The other is in this inquiry. Can the Committee expect that every effort will be made to supply to us information about various things, even though they may not be written down? Mr. Colby. You have my ‘comaitment to that effect. Senator Huddleston. Going further and looking through the. files for notes and documents? Hx. Colby. It is my hops, Senator, that I can help you a on this investigation rather than defending myself against you. Sanator Wuddleston. That is all. Mr. Colby. That is what I would like to have the relation- ship, that I am trying to help vou @o this investigation. re Chairman Church. We want such a relationship end we” “eh. are trying to work it out. . e + ; ee Mr. Colby. I know you do. Yow have sali it a number of | FAA EY CURPAPS TEP Photocopy from 6 HN ib OaG ied Gerald Ford Library Docld: 321123774 Page 38 " sg
tiacs and I agres with you. 2 Chairman Church. Now, Senator Mondale. 5 ” Senator Mondale. The acnovandun fron John MecCone thak 4 we received this morning, dated 14 April, 1967, is addressed 9 to the Director. . 6 | Was McCone an employes or related with the CIA at that 7 |. time? 8 Me. Colby. No, he left in 1965. 9 / Senator Mondale. - So this was a memorandum from a person 10 1 no longer with the CIA, as former Director to the current 11 Director, which begins "no memorandum can be located covering 12°‘) the August, '62 meeting." : 15 ' . That is the one that earlier says the question of 14 | assassination was discussed. However, it is highly probable 15 | that one exists. 16 Now, I would like all documentation, records, and note 17 | that bear on the question of what McCone was referring to, 18 ecause I gat the impression that the then Director, Mr. Helms - 19 Mr. Colby. Yes. 20 Sanator Mondale. -~- was reviewing the question of documenta 21 | tions and records affecting that maeting, or the question of 4 22 | assassination, and I think we need to know what transpired, 23 | what was haopening then, what kind of responses ha received. 24 Mr. Colby. We will’cestainly give you that. fT can give “oe raen 33 ay 25 | vou a basic explanation. we far. a . «oR a3 * ad . =: i item Tie ey rm: aNd wn ae * && witeiabs bs Photocopy from HW 50955 Docla: 321169044 Apggdibyary N
— HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 40 This exercise stenmed from tha ravelation in Jack Anderson's columns, I belisve, of our‘relation hip with the Hafia figures at that tim ——- This then generated the request 2 to Mr. Breckinridge to do an Inspector General's report of this whole subject, which he did, and ‘which we will certainly make available to this Commnitteza,. In the course of it, and with the publicit fr. McCone, who does maintain an occasional contact with the Agency, h 3 e 1s a friend of it and an ex-Directo -~- I see him every now and again and try to sort of keep him up with what is goi ing On in general terms without getting in to politi ical or sensitive mat ters or anythin ~~ but‘he does maintain this contect and Iam sure that somebody made contact with him or he mad= cont with the Agency about the Jack Anderson column, and that re then generated this particular memorandun. Senator Mondale. And there was an Inspector General's study done at that time? an A ene eee Mr. Colby. Yes, Sir; and you will get accass to that or Senator Mondale Can we have documentation as to how lt was originated and the response to what was done? Chairman Church. Yes, we should have that information. And I might say that you are aware, no doubt, that charges have been mada that documents have been destroyed in the CIA which eneral subject of CIA mes. . . = FOR, ™e - * i i : ; on ¢ involvament in assassination efforts. fo a . , {rc ‘ ss] - nO oy - ise aN Photocopyfrom PENIS OTLAL IT : . . . 43 . Gerald Ford Library M ‘ 4 . ‘ i
ct 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ’ who wsreed Can you tell this Comaittee wheather, to your. knowledge, documents have been destroyad? Mr. Breckinridge. I think We can talk in terms of what we know is there. On the Castro assassination, ‘he Te | Mafia, there ware a few memoranda in the Offica of Security, the involvement with and I think you. have copies of those. mae ere ee On the second phase of that, there are practically no records at all and our investigation at that time was made entirely on interviews. Based entirely on interviews, an attempt to reconstruct that activity. ‘The final action which involved a Cuban by the name of Cubella -< Mr. Colby. This was the Cuban major we discussed last ny os rate an internal tr ct it nvolved, was an attempt to gene th {p $ Xs political action, revolt, an records are very full because there was no attention on the part of the people who were involved at that time thet tha eS would be an assassination in * che sense that the original work with the Mafia was éngaged in and thers is a full vecord. and thet time. - Mr. Breckinridge. Started in the minds of tha peopls exists today. | In the case of the Dominican Republic, this developed. iat: . oS rN | =e es oN Let ma finish. iz 3} . . ix 3} ne . oe PERL CES Baye JN? a ‘J Need it eouauts. et ft an . Photocopy from teat Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 3271127774 Page 41
Li 12 13 14 15 16. 1? 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 I will go back to the Cubella case. - In the instance of the Dominican Republic, tha record was very full then-and it is still very full today. I am certain that record is complete. Again, in the minds of the people who were involved, they drew a line between the support they gave to the coup group and conscious association with assassination as such. Those records are completa and those records were developed at the tims and they were retained. It was in the period of the Mafia was involved where psoole knew the purpose was assassine~ tion. , | The records:are practically non-existent and I believe they never existed. Harvey, who conducted the second phase of that, at tne time of our investigation had a handful sof cryptic notes that only he could interpret. We couldn't interpret them. And it is my understanding that those notes no longer exist. Thev were retained by him and he brought them in at the time that we were questioning him. He was then on sick leave prior ‘to retirement. Those notes ware totally unrevealing. I think that those records are in the same state today that they ware then. , is ie "Ugs There were none in the Castro affair except the restits . of our investigation involving the Mafia. The Cubelia case is tuil.. fhat case did progress to the . Wao i”) = re [> m i Photocopy from wae cota Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Doecld: 327113774 Page 42
point | that On the very day of President Kennedy's assassination nw od a man was masting with Cubella in Paris, and in response to ~~ ° Cubella's request offered him an assassination davica that at 4 the time of the investigation Wwe understood he accepted but 6 I have since been told he did not accept. It was a ballpoin 6 pen converted into a syringe for injec ting poison. ? Subsequently, arms were handed to Cubella by a Cuban 8 refugee in Madrid, in the very early part of 1965, and two. 9 catches Were put down by boats off Cuba for Cubella. I think 10 he may have recovered one of those but not the other. Tha ii Yecords on that ere pretty comnplsta, 32. . So, generally Speaking, on those things where the Agency is was involved, with the exception of the association with the 14 Mafia, where from the beginning the intent was assassination, L5 tha records are complete, and I think that if people look at 16.) those they will find this is so. | a i” ; Mr. Schwarz. Ts the understanding that all recorés dealing . . YT 18 “with this subject, whether they are in Inspector General : _ e : Neen ig reports or underlying documents, would be produced for our en ‘ A 7 € 20 inspection? Ke oF, . ‘ . io o . > ~ oe a1 Mr. Colby. Yes. 7 ne If I may ask only the Committee's consideration o ‘the | , 23 normal treatment of compartmentation and some discussion of 241 possibly some indivi dual nanhes in 1& that we would hope that : 6 , 25 Il we might be @biz to handle vary privately, or necessary, or uven _ iy PS CSE GENE) fee Photocopy from ¢ a) Wa & tia ba hata Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 32112774 Page 43
leave ont. But the normal procedures, Chairman Church. Very well. ~ Now, Mr, Schwarz. Hx. Schwarz. Just to tidy up one matter, Lat ma mark as Comaittes Exhibit 5 the John A. eCom to tha Directer mamoranduna of April 14, 1967... ee (The above mentions document was 8 Marked as Colby Exhibit No. § ‘ . 9 ; for identification.) 10 Mr. Schwarz. Might I cons down with you on this document il and we will look at it together? Le. Mr. Colby. -I hava a copy. 1s ‘Mr. Schwarz. “As of April, 1967, Mr. MeCone was no longer 14 at the Agency, was he? | ~ is Mx. Colby. No. 16 Me. Schwarz. Was he then in his vosition with ITT, ox 17 did. hs have sone other position? 18 Mr.,Colby. I really don'* know. 19 Mr. Schyvarz. In any event he wasnt at the Agency? 20 Mr. Colby. That is right 21 Mr. Schwarz. The thing that is curious about this meno- ae randum, with raspact to the state of the record, is paragraph 25 One, which reads es follows: ; 24 "No mumorandun can be locstea covering ths 25 howavar, it is hianly prohadl= that one exists," Photocopy from TOR? Qrycra ria Gerald Ford Library be L Wiaraicrd d HY 50955 Docld:321L27%24 Page 44
HY 50955 Ct 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21 22 ae) 24 25 Decld: 32112774 Page 45 Now, Hr. HMcConea, was aot in the Ayency, is writing a e Menorandun to ths Director, who was in the Aqancy, referring «- a search by or on Dshalf of Mr. MeCons. Now, did Mr. McCona have documents outsides the Agency, or how do you éxplain? ; Mr. Colby. I don't believe he has any documents. I ha never asked him. But I don't believe he has any documents outside of the Agency. Mir. noche. Mr. NMcCone wrote me that memorandum while Agency premises. Tt was.duxring a visit to ths Agency and he had the benefit of his ex-staff assistant, Mr. Nalter Elder, helping him in doing a little research in this connection. Mr. Colby. All that says is that they hadn't located i by then. I think wa hava located soma since that tims. Mr. Schwarz. Picking up on a question of Senator Nart valuations if (p a t fl om ip ( a of Michigan, he asked you Whether the then you tr ry {y 0 on i 5 3 ke ui 77] I~ i] iL 9 K lad 7p] dl n Qu 33 Ou in.connection with testified about svaluations post-Bay of Pigs and rather cont evaluations of the subject of Cuba: But take it thoss wer not svaluations or re-evaluations of the subject of assassin Mx. Colby. All I can say is I think that question is-—Zlrz3 I know that after the Bay of Pigs failure there was én ___ iavestigaetion mate of th. viscle saisods, and in the cours: ¢ that a discussion of tvhato owes vars then to do and @ progren v c/a sree ye e2 Pa arn ir i to i ‘ Ui ‘ax a Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library ree. ada vutds A ii Sten ad Anus = ~ nm mnt | |
@ Q 2 ° < “t n) ~ e. nN = a - < - @ e é WARD & PAUL 4i0 Frese Sivest, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 LO Li L2 13 14: 15 16 1? 18 19 20 2l 22. 23 24 £9 developed. And I am speaking at second hand here. Cut a progr: Was developed of keeping soms economic pressurz on Cuba, and Lo that was a national policy, not just a CIA -- keeoing an economic pressures on Cuba and continuing to suvport the various elements wnich might eventually lead to a change in tha Cuban government through soma overthrow or otherwise. I think soms propoganda programs were kept up, some exile activities were kept up, some training of teams to be infil- trated into Cuba were kept ud, soma sabotage onsrations were ©} Oo a} it p4e rs Fa @ Co 4 iS Qu wt i Q a: ree) QO ‘¢] +o cr re pa] / (o Ds o < 45) be ct us wD hh oO feat }-# o bo pe. Me Q i?) wo < (DR ry fu foo Right after the 1962 missile crisis.-- I cannot identify right offhand hera any particular review of that -- but I , - know that that was a subject of 40 Committse considsration et various times. a about it, it was not covered in those 2iscussions because it ~ 2 . t would be very hard to cover them without his being involved. Chairman Church. Ars you telling us that the much publi- cized investigation of tha CIA, which teok place following the i fiasco, and as I remember this review was ordered Loe fu we 9 tty ny 6Q 79] by the President in order to datarmine what had gone wrong anc way, and it was a matter of great urgency and impoxtanecs: te the Photocopy from RA Ce APR pe ‘ eae - a GeraldfFord library = WV UE a as ba 13 4 4 al rt = * {i K cr £5 seh] tt he os 0} h a Cc! fon {le Du fu 7] “ fu 9) . " ome H- 33 ie) pore fe) 7) © bad 3 o tt bt Q fu ts fe) tt yy ” te Docld: 32711277274 Page 46
1 2 Gi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1? 18 19 20 21° 23 24 25 government at that time ~- are you telling us thet in the course of that review the Agency's involvemsnt in tion efforts against Castro nsaver cama to Light? tr. Colby. t just don't know, Mr. Chairman. the answer I have to give you. I do not know. I believe the Inspector General report afts Pigs does not mention it, does it? Mr. Breckinridge. No. tas thet i Commi’ Fa tp Mr. Colby. The report of th it, General Taylor, and the Attorney Gensral and somebody there were thres members of it -- maybs Mr. Dulles. I don believe that report mMantioned it. Theat is the asses xr the Bay of looked int zl Chairman Church. Do wa have a copy of tha Taylor Rivort Mr. Colby. = ‘think it has been made available. Or is that a third agency problen? Mr. Schwarz. That is another frustration. That ons ha bésn dsnied to us on the theory that it is part of the Kan e) uM 5 it Library and, tharesforse, we hava to go threugh another channel | to get that. Doses the CIA have a cooy of the Taylor Report? fe tt Fy) have it. I hate to say here weiter osth wa doe not heaves Mr. Colby. I don't belisvs we do. £ know we couple of years ago and at thet time I was told we di looked for an TR he know T tried to got ahold of it and was told a coudls-of ysars EOD GUes ay Photocopy from Ls tata bat Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 321127274 Page 47 aa Op) == nee aenenanee tena
ago that we couldn't have ons. Buk there are lots of drawers in those safas in that building. I aim not trying to evade the quastion. Iam trying to say I don't think we have one. Tt could be. We have a copy of our own Inspector General's report at that tims. Mr. Schwarz. Does that contain any mention of the assassination subject? Mr. Colby. No, it does not. Mr. Schwarz. Do you find it puzzling. that-the CIA doasn't have a copy. of tha report designed to review its activities in the Bav of Pigs, a report that led to substantial Presidential changes in tha instructions with Yaspect to your jurisdiction? Mr. Colby. ‘Yes. Mr. Schwarz. I mean, it is fu n important document -- Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. . - Hr. Schwarz. ~~ relating to tha CIA. Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. a “Senator Schweiker. I wonder if Mr. iicCone has a copy? Mx. Colby. I would doubt it. ¢ Senator Schwaiker. That is why he cama in, becaue of that Mx. Colby. Rouchly, yes. ce ‘ Chairman Church. Ina the course of “the investigation that nvestication that led to the Taylor Rez took place, this i oe “ Pian ae Ups that took place in th: attervath of the Bey of Pigse. | o\ Tay ‘. i Photocopy from — ; ; Gerald Ford Library ( oe Vey eyth, aah ams “ye ‘ efi Vee ? adun’ Saba wa \. HY 50955 Docl@:321127T24 Page 46
1 2 &t 190 a1 12 13 14 15 16 “1? 18 19 20 22 22 23 24 25 Were records kspt, that is to say -- Mr. Colby. Of contributions? Chairmen Church. No. Did the investi igation involve ay writtsn records? Did it involve tastimony taken under oath and transcribed? Is thare raw matarial relating to that investigation to which this Commi tte éa could gain access? Mr. Colby. I don't know the answer to the question, Mr. Chairman. Maybe Mr. Breckinridge can help us. Mr. Breckinridge. JI am not familier with that study. Iam familiar with the approach that was taksn at the time within our organization when the Inspector Gensral.-- I was not involved .in that study but I have heard it discussed how they approached it. Their undzrstanding of the Bay of Pigs problem was the overall invasion plan and organization for that and concentrated on that. os . o> By way of explanation for the omission of rsaference “o he assassinations, so few people knew about it, and I think ch ur yf pes it came to no one's attention ~- simply did not discover it at that time. And it may not have been by way of explanation, not a justification. It may not heave bean associated in the $ ids oO rh re he it) G {L Le: ae) ~~ tf] ad i wno did know about it with tha inquiry into the military operation. t at nix. Schwarz. fie. Bissell knew abont it ard he was certainly thea main architect of the Bay of Pigs; right? OS, ej ‘ oot mt Photocopy from ak eae OG | . ; rs Gerald Ford Library ~ ° HW 50955 Docld:32112724 Page 49
1 Fhiwaee goss ew wees ow - fi A= 10 Ll 12 13 WARD & FAUL 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ao rst Sireot, S.E., Washington, 0.¢. 20803 24 410 F 25 HW 50955 Docld: Mr. Breckinridge. Right. * Least the records we oy Mr. Schwarz. And Mr. Dulles, put in on Wednesday, knew about it and he was substantially fy involved ia the Bay of Pigs. ‘Those gentlemen surely would have been questioned by General Teylor and Attorney General Kennedy - {Is that fair? Me. Breckinridge. I would assumes so. Mr. Colby. Certainly, yes. But again, if the focus was bean thet that other ik on the military operation, it might hav opsretion was not involved in it. Mr. Schwarz. Tha record further shovs that on May 7, 1962, a meeting was held with Attorney General Robart Kennedy in rt 0 which the contemporansous docuisent describing that m sting indicates that ha was not told that there was a continuing and ongoing operation, but rather was told of somsthind which . . ; : PIO + i a ~~ oS - 3a was not called an assasSination hut was callec @aoprojec:. he was told of something which was referred to in the past tens2: is that right? a4 -~- , ; Mr. Colby. I was in ths past ‘tensa. Whether there. was any other discussion in that meeting on this subject we just don't know. Mr. Breckinridg 1 think I can interpret what happencd. | . * ; . gh. The people who brisfed Attorney General Kennedy are tne ees Ones who knew about wat we call the first phasa of the opere vic with the Mafia. [ey Photocopy from C3) [p ¢ Cpe PISA ix Gerald Ford Library crits La | 32112724 Page 50 rave 1 ry “yy
HW 50955 bt mae) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ‘21 a (Ae 8 bak ll anda a nen ae Colonel Edwards, who was Director of Sucurity, under whose sunarvision the first portion of that activity was carri«ed On, had withdrawn from-it. Tha Operation, when it was react tivated later, was reactive on a conpartnented basis, and Colonel Edwards. did not know about it. . . ’ Mr. Schwarz. Even though it continuaa to involve ‘the Mafie until early 1963? . Mr. Breckinridge. That is corrsct. Colonel Fewards n longer knew what was going on. So when he brisfed the Attorney General he aia not know that this second operation, this reactivation of the operation that had formerly run under his responsibility -- ha did not know that it was ongoing. Mr. Schwarz. Who was responsible for the selection of Colonel Edwards and Gensral Couns#l Houston as being the persons who would go to brief Attorney General Aannedv? Mr. Breckinridge. I am not sure I know that. Mr. Schwarz. Tt would have been someone of highsr authority within the CIA; is that correct? Mx. Breckinridge. We have tried to determine. rt Mr. Houston, if I understand i faels that he would not haves done this unless he thought the Director knew. Me. Schwarz. Xnew what? inxidge. Xnaew that he was going to do this. But + Mr. Breck yn. -. a t 2M, 2 ° e . a a? he did not talk to the Director about it. ; fue ant . . . : = 4 MESA CF me ee a a . Photocopy from Doold: 333d 210 ford EWFary?!
HW 50955 GI 10 dl 12 13 14 15 16° 17 18 19 20 ek Be 23 25 hat it is not all that clear in Colonel Udvarcs' I gather t either 2t this point in tim r Mr. Schvarz. ‘So someone selacted these persons to go and brief Attorney General Kennsdy, number one. . Number two, they did not know the plot for assessinztion ongoing, although in fact it was? < = p> uu ws Mx. recki nridga Corrsct. Mr. Schwarz. Numbar three: therefore, Attorney General . ————— Kennedy was given the impression that whatever was going on was OVerj; is that correct? “Mr. Schwarz. Can we determine than who was responsible for. selecting those persons to brief Attorney General Kennedy, instsad of including in the group other parsons who knew that the Mafia part of the assassination attempt was ongoing? Mr. Breckinridge. i don't think that wa can now. 2s Z sav, theres is no written racord. Mr. Schwarz. Who could it have been? Who was in a higher position of authority, in a position to make a dscision . as to who should brief Attorney General Kennedy? Mr. Breckinridge. I would assume that Hr. Bissel could have. | , ‘ . tir. Selwers. Wes AL ot tte LL in the Agency ia Mav of I°62? Sn Faye af ‘ nw chink he may hav ord Mr. Breekridge. IT don't: Ka net h ‘ eft Docld:32112774 Page 52 Gerald Ford Library
left by then. 2 . May I reconstruct because much of my understanding is bas:q oS | . - On ny analysis of what happened and not on clear facts. 4 The FBI approached Colonel Edwards when their investigation 5 , ; and incident in Las Vegas eventually produced his name, and 6 . . ou. ; . ° his conversations, I think, were with the General Counsel at vi . oe a . that time. I cannot reconstruct beyond that so I really can't 8 . tee - gage Give you an answer to the spscific question. But the initiative 9 £ wr we . ra s an came Fron thea PSI. Colonel Edvards and Mr. Wouston dGiscuss<i 10 . . : L . it. Mr. Houston, I haves been told, believes that tha Director il . - -j} Must have known. 12 | Mr. Schwarz. Which Director ars wa talking about? 13 Mr. Breckinridgs. Whoever the Director was at that &ims? 14 Mr. Colby. By that time. 15 Mr. Schwarz. Of what agency? 16: Mr. Colby. CIA. That would haves bean McCone. 17 Mr. Breckinridga. He overated on the assumption that tir. (16 McCons knew. 19 Mr. Schwarz. Knew what? £0 Mr. Breckinridga. Knew that thay were going to brief the | a1 Attorney Gsneral. ne Mr. Schwarz. About? ot 23 Hr. Breckinridga. The record on this is very unsetisfectery 24 asd I can't clarify it for you because we have been trying £9 25 || €ind out when Mr. McCone first learned of it after tha fact, ; Photocopy from -YE\D CEO hse On AN i ‘ ‘ abt Sd bate bat HW 50955 pocra: 3295 FEL rg sany,
as it was. When people discussed this with ona another, what thay ™ conveyed to one another accurately as to what it was they were oe ae Ue TO ww LE discussing, the record is simply not clear and I don't think 5 ; . that we can reconstruct the+ satisfactorily today, 6 . . . Mr. Schwarz. Is Mr. Edwerds Still aliva? My. Breckinridge. Yes, he is, 8 8 : 2 . 2 * ° : Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Houston is stil] alive and is in Washirg- 5 . ton, D.C.? , ? nue) _ » : Hr. Breckinridge. Yes, sir.. mix. Schwarz. Mr. McCons is Stiil alive and is in -- Mr, €olby. .Californiz. 1S ‘Mr. Schwarz. Was Hr. Helms the successor to Mr. Bisssl? 14 Mr. Colby. Yes, sir. is Mx. Schwarz. Well, let's lsavaa place in the record 16 where we will insert it was slither Mr. McCone or Mr. Bissel 1? who had the job of Deputy Director 'for Plans in May, 1962, 18 Mr. Colby. It certainly wasn't Mr. Necone, i9 Mr. Schwarz. Mr. Helms or Mr. Bissel? "20 Mr. Colby. Yes. el ; 22 23 24 Photocopy from . . Gerald Ford Library ; ; Parse - , wet #5 “ . 29 ~ *. a’, yeh yt ey ras pas : ie YD aig a Verba £5 H HY 50955 Docld: 32112724 Page 54