HW 53716 . SE T _,z. © Of course, I can stop here and not ask you any more about it, but my conclusion is that you, as Secretary of a Komsomol organization and as a Komsomol member, do not know the Regulations concerning how a person is put on the rolls in a Komsomol organization, not only in the Komsomol Committee, but in any military unit -=- because you could not even give me the correct name of your Komsomol organization in Z the Navy. The Komsomol organization of military unit such and such. What else?’ We talked with you earlier about the fact that the Regulations state how and where the Komsomol organizations are organized.... The primary Komsomol organization of military unit such and such. Further, to whom is it subordinate? It is subordinate to the deputy commander for political affairs. Every political worker, deputy commander for political affairs, according to the Regulations, should supervise the work of the Komsomol organization. Both the Party and the Komsomol. There is someone who is higher than the primary Komsomol organization, who is responsible for this. Who is it to whom this organization is subordinate? Everyone knows, and it is written in the Regulations, that the Party guides the Komsomol; and it is true that the "Party god" always sticks his nose into the Komsomol work -- it is his duty. But there is, above the primary organization, some office to whom it is subordinate and upon whose instructions the primary organization works. DoclId: 327404701 Page Ts
e eo - 76 = B. Well, the instructions come from the Political Department; in the Political Department or the Political Directorate of the Fleet, there is a Komsomol Committee ((Laughs)) A. I do not intend to explain it to you, but ((In English)) you are completely wrong. B. I am telling it the way I know it, but you want.... A. One cannot accept what you say as valid coin when it is not right. I am trying, with leading questions, to help you.... B. Forgive me; I am not a political worker, but you ask me for such details. A. If you were a political worker, I could ask you a thousand other questions. I am asking you only what any Komsomol member and the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate must know. B. I am answering everything as I know it. A. You do not know == that is the problem. B. I answer as I personally know it. A. I make the direct conclusion that youvywere not a Secretary of a Komsomol organization and that you do not know the simplest things about the Regulations of the Komsomol. You know nothing about the collection of Komsomol dues, except that there is a list -- but you do not know the name of the list. B. What do you mean -- I do not know about the dues ~- when I have said how it was done and how I did it? HW 532716 DBocld:32404701 Page 79
HW 53716 e -~.e =~ G7 = That is very simple; we will return to that, also. I want you yourself to make the explanations. What did you actually do? Where were you?’ I am telling you. How could it happen that a man does not even know.... He came to Moscow, came into the organs of the KGB -~ this is not the crutch factory or the "Do not take me from under the warm blanket" Kolkhoz; this is the KGB. ((In a low voice)) Yes. There are certain rules, regulations and other things which you must know as soon as you enter on duty there, but you cannot explain the simplest things. I want to understand; I give you leading questions and others, but you cannot answer; how is this to be explained? How is it to be explained? What do you want? ((XG; A and B speak at the same time) ) I want to know this simple thing -- how did you get on the rolls? I told you; I told you how I got on the robkls. You said only one thing -- which anyone could say: that you went to the Komsomol Committee. What next? I went to the registration group and said, "I am a new employee; I am working in the Second Chief Directorate." tt They asked for my Komsomol card; I said, "If you please.... DoclId: 327404701 Page 80
HW 53716 | Ps ne They asked me where I had been on the rolls and if I had been de- registered -— I said, "No", They asked where -- I said I had worked there, I was on the rolls there. Fur ther? I told them what had happened with me -= that I had come on leave and, while on.leave, the question of my transfer from the Navy to the MVD arose. So I began to work in the MVD. They wrote down my Komsomol card number and opened a personnel card on me.... | By the way, Komsomol reprimands are recorded on this personnel card «- such things as a severe reprimand with warning and a reprimand. We will get to that when we talk about your punishments. I think by that time you will be better prepared. What do you mean == "better prepared"? You will ((speak)) more believably. Well, what do you mean -- "more believably"? I am telling you what I have (2G) ((Laughs)) You see == you are laughing yourself. Well... I am not laughing; I cannot tell you anything more. I have to laugh because you talk, you explain, but it does not fit —= in any way, you understand. I try to stick this in ((in order)), but I cannot, in any way. Why can you not? Ath, DoclId: 327404701 Page 61
HW 53716 e -»- @ Because this is nonsense. What -= nonsense? This is life. You yourself are laughing. I laugh because this is quite simply an absurd situation. I tell you ((something, but)) you tell me I do not know. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) I tell you how it was; you tell me I do not know. How can a person say, "I paid 2%"? No; this cannot be, in any way. Or, for example, the last hour we were talking, so... "up to 27 years of age", Yes, up to 27. It was 26 the whole time. They changed it much later, but not 1953, 1954. It ((was)) precisely so, precisely to 27 inclusive, precisely --= because.... You understand... up to 26 inclusive. But they changed it much later, when you already were in the Party -= if you were ((in the Party)). Well, no; no, no. What are you say ing == that I am trying (?to deceive?) you? No, No. You are mistaken, you are mistaken. DoclId: 327404701 Page 82
HW 53716 - 80 — No, no; you.... When I make a mistake, I admit it immediately. ((Pause)) Well, let us go back to Primorskiy Kray for a minute. Where did yougget it that this place is called Primorskiy Kray? — From where did I get it? From the fact that they wrote letters to me ((there)). Screw them, these letters! There is the Administrative-Territorial Division of the Soviet Union (Administrativno-territorial'noye deleniye Sovetskogo Soyuza), and there never was a Primorskiy Kray there. From where did you get this? But who knows (khren yego znayet) from where I got it... the city of sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray. . That is what I want to say --— from where? If there was none there, then how, from where? You made it up. Here is from where. They told me so (tak skazali mne). Letters came to me ((addressed)) thus... city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray, military unit such and such. I am telling you, but as if I made it up, as if I made it up.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) Why do I need it, this Primorskiy Kray; I am telling you how it was, how it was. Here, a letter -- ((addressed to)) Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray -- the devil knows why! SECRET _ DoclId: 327404701 Page 83
HW 53716 oo SECRET ~ 81 - Let us not get upset.... There was no.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time .)) There was, How can you say there was, when there was none. But I, when, I received letters; but how -= "there was none"? Then were you in some other place?... I was in no other place.... ‘ ((When)) you received these letters? No, I was not. Think how it must be. Why should I think about it? I do not know why. I do not know why it was necessary for you to say: Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray; Baltiysk, Primorskiy Kray; Konigsberg, Primorskiy Kray. A second-grader would laugh. ((In a very low voice)) Primorskiy Kray, from Primorskiy Kray, I myself gave the address ((to someone, the name "unreadable")).... Take, for example, Krasnodar; ((it is)) the center of what kray? Of Krasnodarskiy ((Kray)). So, cre DoclId: 327404701 Page 684
| CRET eo “* «6 -~ 82 - What did you say == Konigsberg, now Kalinigrad, etc.; ((it is)) of what kray? B. To my thinking, now, now Kalinigradskiy, Kalinigrad Oblast, now, Kaliningrad Oblast. A. Let us proceed from the following ~—{ when did KALININ die? B. Well, why ((talk about)) KALININ here? Why KALININ here? | Right after the war, they called it, Konigsberg... they soon, immediately; named it Kaliningrad. A. Again, this is nonsense. Listen, I simply want that if you do not know, youc:do not say ((anything)); if you know, tell the truth. I am asking when KALININ died. B. I do not remember, I do not remember. A. For your information, I will not say when, you yourself will thing ((of this)). Kaliningrad was renamed to honor KALININ after his death. And Kaliningrad was not Kaliningrad right after the war. Therefore, for me, there is a legitimate question: ‘Were you ((there) ) in 1952? | ‘How did a person in Sovetsk in 1952 receive letters ((addressed to)) the city of Sovetsk, Primorskiy Kray? This is utter rot (khuynya). B. (XG) I will tell you what; you say Konigsberg -- right. In 1945, I flew from Moscow to Konigsberg, to Konigsberg with father; here, right away.... A. This already was after the war. HW 53216 DBoclId:32404701 Page 65
HW 532716 B. DoclId: 327404701 Page 36 1945, 1945.... This was when’? July, July-August. This already was after the war. No, this, well, the war had just ended. This was Konigsberg. I do not contradict this. I do not know when they gave Konigsberg a name, In 1952, I arrived... in Sovetsk... Baltiysk, Sovetsk.... This was Kaliningrad, That is all, that is all. When, I do not know. Since when has there been a Primorskiy Kray in the Far Hast? I do not know since when. For a long, long, long time, because you still read books about the Civil War, the partisans of Primorskiy Kray. And there is such a Primorskiy Kray ((there)), right? There is, there is; right. And the center there? Vladivostok. But it would not be logical to have two Primorskiy Krays in the Soviet Union. I give you my honest word -~- there is a second Primorskiy Kray.