7 ‘TOP SECRET | a “5. 1 | intonation I know I didn't have this because I would have ‘all in? If I got this later I did not handle it. TI know I did not send any cable of that.. “Mx. Goldsmith. For the record, will you indicate what mg oe .; ; ee bk eh a nF i 2 | cen more thorough in the first paragraph. Why not put it information is contained in that transcript that: is not y . a reece EEE eaes atte ee EEE nt nr ER tdsneeennfnsntrtebenabet ‘|, included in’ the cable? | Mrs. Manell. ' This indicates that ~~ wait a minute, there 9 |. no’ name mentioned here; is that ‘right? _ Mr. Goldsmith. Right. That is 4 good point. ‘Does: this - transcript, dated 28 September, refer to the person Speaking | in broken Russian by name? — RS e 7 13 “Mrs. Manell.. No. u Mr. Goldsmith. Is Oswald's name mentioned at all? IS Mrs. Manell. No. 16 ! ur. Goldsmith., Essentially it indicates a contact with 7 the Cuban Embassy,’ the fact that he had been at the Cuban. -Embassy? ny t | eee aor earn at Mrs. Manell. ves. Mr. Goldsmith.” That is essentially all, isn't that it? - Mrs. Manell. Yes. Wait a minute now. Don't we say some 221 shere there ---it ‘could be that I did see this first. 3 Mr. Goldsmith. By this you are referring to the tran-. . 24 RP ome script? 2 n Mrs. Manell. Yes. And there was no name mentioned. I TOP SECRET HW 50955 Doclda:322977219 Page 74
| | | am trying to.see when Boris said that it seems: as though, “ie | he tried to. link up the two. Let mé say this. 1 know, at , least ‘I am quite ‘sure, that there was a cable gent after this. first cable that I sent that showed that he was in touch ‘with the Cuban Embassy: I did not send the cable. Mr. Goldsmith.’ Let us “move on to some of these other transcripts. I would 1 like to refer your - attention now to. CIA number’ ‘17 and 18, which is a transcript dated 27 Septembe eo re. vs ws 6 aaa aN AE STE LT = = Mr. Goldsmith. Do you remember seeing the transcript 1963, the time is 1605 hours | Will you please read that? 10 | There is a cransiation on the next page if you would like to. "| look at that, too. oo 2 | Mrs. Manel. T don't remember ever seeing this. | 1 | | | | | | | | 1d | before? _ is) Mrs. Manell. I don't remember seeing it but I could be 6 | wrong. a | 7 Mr. Goldsmith.,” whose Wandwriting is’on the lefthand_ 12 | side of the page? . a | | of: “Mr. Scott's. se Mr. Goldsmith. — To the best of your memory, prior to the 2] | ein that the cable of october 8 was sent you ‘did not see this oe .° 22 transcript dated 9/27/63? ® | = Mrs. Manell. I just don't ‘remember. Unless I skimmed 24 | over ‘it and I did not see, anything, because the real meat of the information is 1 October and this is 27 September and At | peaddd | HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 79 TOP SECRET
is unnamed. I may not have connected. them.: | didn't connect them.- I don't know. Mr. Goldsmith. Moving back to the transcript dated . ~ September 28, 1963, are you certain nevertheless that certainly before the assassination this transcript was linked oe) . I don't know whether I didn't see it or I’saw. it and to Oswald? “Mrs..Manell. This has to be the one that was sent, that. there was a follow-up cable that was sent that showed that : Oswald was in touch with the Cuban Embassy as well as the” | ! 4 | [fess Embassy. -I don't know if there is anything. else that:} i i you ‘don't have. I don't know if the cable was sent on the e 13 | basis of this specific piece of information here or not, I = ‘Td don't know. | 15 | Mr. Goldsmith. My question is’ this. The September 28 16 | transcript you clearly Saw at some time? | VW | Mrs. Mariell. ves. I wrote on. it. "| Mr. Goldsmith. My specific question, ‘forgetting about 19 I. whether another cable was sent té CIA headquarters, my 20 | specific question is whether this transcript was Linked to_ 2 | Oswald priox to the assassination? | ee 22 Mrs. Manell. What does the transcriber say’ about this @ - | 73 ‘voice? Does he Link it with a this transcript or a Similar. 24 | one nust “have been a basils forthe cable that was sent. | oS : a, 25 | linking -- “ou Sage: a eater. pa : Ie hegadn © ae. ae HW 50955 Bocld: 32277219 Page 30
Mr. Goldsmith. . I really don't want. you. to focus or be concerned now about. the other cablé that was. sent. My ques- ‘ tion is whether this transcript was linked to Oswald prior to the assassination, and I am referring now to the 28 ‘September 1963 transcript. Mrs. Manel. T can*t tell you. Is there anything here - that you see that “says that this person. speaking broken | Russian is the same as -- I don't see anything ‘about the Cuban Embassy. “I don't understand this. I must have seen. this after I sent this cable. E. did not send a subsequent ‘cable. a | | | | Mr. Goldsmith. You are certain one was sent? Laneaeeaaeaaeal Rett a aCe Sona TN A ET I SD AN Mrs. Manell. Yes. 14 | Mr. Goldsmith. . My question really still has not been “1§ | ‘answered. ‘prior to the assassination. was the transcript 16 | dated September -28, 1963) ‘linked to Oswala? > qe | ‘Mrs. Manell. ‘T don"t know, that: There was some informa-| 18 }- tion that was Linked because a cable was sent daying that y Oswald had not ‘only Appeared at’ thé Soviet Embassy but had’a 20 connection with the Cuban Embassy. That is all I know. va Mr. Goldsmith. “according to the Agency's records there a 2 was only this one cable dated October 8, 1863. a , “3 | | Mrs. Manell. I don't understand this . I know. that: there | 24 | was a link, I know that it was reported that there was a cable} - 25 i sent after this. It was a cable that was sent after this | | peas TOP SECRET HW 30955 Docld: 32277219 Page 31 | | | | | | to | i | i |
TOP SECRET 1 | that indicated that he was in touch with the Cubans as well mo 2 | as with Soviets. I did not send the cable. - | 3 Mr. Goldsmith. Based upon that, you are saying that ea 4 Oswald was linked to this transcript of September 28? 7 | 5 Mrs. Manell. This or some other transcript, I don't 6 ‘know. I mean this is not a complete run of the transcripts | ; for this period that we were covering.. You see, if you had | 8 that ~~ | : : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. You are correct, the transcripts that’ — | 10 | we have here are those chat the Agency has provided us and | | ay | said have been linked to Oswald. | : 7 Mrs. Manell. Then this must have been the one. If that e 13 : is the case, then I am sure this is the one if that is what | os if} they told you. | 1S Mr. Goldsmith. When you say this is the one? 16 Mrs. Manel. Because this is the one that refers to the: 13 tion that links Oswald to the Cuban Embassy, then this is “ 19 the piece of information. . 20 Mr. Goldsmith. They don't say that. They have given | va us all of the transcripts that they say are linked to Oswald. | . { | oye 22 Mrs. Manell.. I don't have any reason to think that therg @ %3 would be more except I can't pin down and say this was the 24 ! i ! | { i 17 Cuban Embassy. If they say that this is the piece of informa | i | | | specific one that was used as the basis for linking the two. :o) in That is all I am saying. goat TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 82 SN)
Mr. Goldsmith. Let us move on. to CIA numbers 19 and. 20. - Number 19 is the transcript dated September 27, 1963, the time-is 1626 hours. Would you please read that? “Mrs. Manell. I don't understand: this time’ sequence on this. at all beacuse I did not see all of this about a wife, “about four to ‘five months, about any of this. - It is a mystery “to me. I don't nderstand it. It is not that 1 don't undex-|. stand the transcript when I'am looking at it. I am saying I don't understand how these things, could ante-date my cable and not be put in the cable. That is what I am saying. r don't know when I saw’ these. I did see this because chat. is my writing ‘there. Mr. Goldsmith. What we have here is the situation under 1d which according to the standard operating procedure you os 4S would have reviewed everything in chronological order. We | have transcripts from Sépteitber 27 and 28, which you are now “saying you pérhaps did not receive until after October ist or after October ath when you sent’ thé ‘cable to headquarters, Mrs. Manell. Yes, because there would be no reason -~ why not show this? Why would I not’ want. to show it? It would add more information that I wanted to send about him 22 | nem 24 even though we thought he was an ‘unemportant : American. If he would in touch with the Cuban Embassy I would have said SO. : _ © 2 OE On da’. w Nn, i ne pees ee eet ee em arg ae ge engrn e er a e S Se al a a Mr. Goldsmith. If you sent the first cable to CIA —gotaie TOP SECRET WW 50955 Docld: 32277219 ‘Page 83
headquarters why would the responsibility for sending another ; cable be delegated to anybody else but you? | Mrs. Manell. Maybe T'wasn't there because I worked part time. Perhaps I wasn't there. I see here he gives her- “some action to take. | | / Min. Goldsmith.; Who wrote that? Mrs. Manell. That is Mr. Scott's writing. Mr. Goldsmith. He gave it ‘to whom? ~ Mrs... Manell. To Annie. That is. why I think the second cable was written. I cantt say for a certitude: that Annie wrote, it but I think she did. I know there was a cable that was sent that Linked him to the Cubans, to the Cuban Embassy . cnr NM RP aaa ee ne erm He is still unidentified. Mr. Goldsmith. It. says copy.to Oswald P file. This is’ Mrs. Manell. - I would. -think with the. cable, the first cable that I sent, and then 411 the information that had. to’ "| do with it would be put in that file, subséquent information. I say here "Soviet contacts." At that point there was ‘no P. file established for him. . This is where we put anyone in Sorcerer ronan ornate NSRaN SR OT TOI SR eS touch with the Soviet Embassy including Americans. 22 Mr. Goldsmith. Who wrote reference to P. files? Mrs. Manell. ‘This ‘is’ my writihg here.“ “I think that is 24) Herb's writing. - This is’ not either of our writings here. Iti a nr =. an rr . o ; See © . _ . : ‘ . 2 had meee commnenstssmmeewent ve mmm mae tenes mtr is.not Scott's writing,.it is not anybody's here. | | I | | on CIA number 19. When would that P file have been operied? | | | | | | | { | i | { HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 84
HW 450955 | | | 22 _~ . ~t 3 24 2 tn. =a. Docld: 32277219 Page 65 oo “y av. ‘an bm a i] S etenteeeseeeenstntesmemmenenmndienenessaeaaasttbasd - = file. TF also checked, I remember, the unfiled stuff because TOP SECRET = st: Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Here is the point, that the transcript ~ is, dated September 27, 1963. ‘It indicates that a copy is to go to Oswald's Pp files. urs. Manell. Yes, but I have "file Soviet contact", and| somsbody else put this in. I -didn't know that this was a P file, maybe I would have, 1 could have put it in both places. | | Mr. Goldsmith. When would this have gotten into his P file? | | Mrs. Manell. Immediately. As I.told you before, when : ’ : I went into Registry I did a thorough check.’ .I would have checked all P files. I would have, checked the Soviet contact i we sometimes got a. pile of that. I.found no reference to Oswald. Now, this of course is not definitely, Oswald at this time. It is about. an unknown person who talks. ‘about going to Russia, about his wife and all of that. Mr. Goldsmith. “Oswald is not mentioned by: name in any - of these others, is he? now he is not mentioned by name. Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, do you recall the interview that you had with Dan Hardway, Betsy Wolf and myself? Mrs. Manell. ves. Mr. Goldsmith. In that interview Dan and Betsy were © 001420 7 Mrs. Manell. No. In any of the ones we are dicussing ' | | | | | | | | | TOP SECRET
12 id 29 24 HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 36 ‘the assassination in particular? | with the rest of it. I did the one thing and that is all I ' the original thing. TOP SECRET taking notes. Based upon the notes of what you said that day | their best recollection was that in fact these transcripts had been linked to Oswald prior to the assassination. Today you are unclear about that. ‘Mrs. Manell. I.am not talking about prior to the assas- -sination. I am talking in terms of the cable that I wrote. | Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give me the answer in terms of | Mrs. Manell. I think if the transcriber says it is the same person speaking in broken Russian, then it must be. I am not doubting what he is saying. Mr. Goldsmith. I agree that it must be the same person - or it may be :the same person. That still does not answer the question whether these transcripts were all linked to Oswald prior to ‘the ‘assassination. Mrs. Manell. ‘t am sure they must have been, yes, but I didn't do it, that is all’ I am saying. JI had nothing to do did on Oswald. Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have made that Link and put everything in the P files? Mrs. Manell. The rest of the information? Tf it came over my desk I would have sent it to his P file. I did not do a roundup after all of this was over with. I only wrote O04Le7. TOP SECRET
HY 0955 a i 10 aU 22 Ng 24 prior to the time you sent the cable, the 10-8 cable? “described in the cable or’ I would have put it in. It is Mr. Goldsmith. who would have made the link to oswala? Would it have been Herbert Manel, your husband? | Mrs.” Manell.’” 1 would, thinkhe and I éogether most ~ probably because some of this is unclear. ‘Boris would have had to ao with it in.connecting the broken Russian ‘with: the’ unidentified’ person. | | Mr. Goldsmith. By the time of the assassination all of these materials would have been. in his Pp file?’ Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. To clarify, again, to the best of your memory, you don't recall seeing the 27th and 28th transcripts Mrs. Manéll. ‘Let: us put it this way, that did not Link them if I did see them. He was unnamed in it, in both of these transcripts. ‘He was dot naméd: “I£ I saw ‘them 1 aia not think at that time that it was the person that ft either that or I didn't see it at the time I wrote the cable. Then I wouldn't have written a followup because he was on record. He was an American. I put him on record and that is all I did. | Mr. Goldsmith. Would you have written a followup if headquarters had requested to be kept apprised? Mes. Manel. I am just trying, to think if the Cubans would have sent this. I don't understand this, that it just . : ay . an . . ~ . : ‘
| cane through on our lines. I just don't think that I could. | to connect this one with that one whenever possible. If I _ have séen these, is all.I can think of. I was. always trying -had seen. this I am sure I would have raised a lot of question “5 Mr. Goldsmith... This clearly came in-on“a Soviet phone? 6 Mrs.’  Manell. Yes. | 7 7 Mr. Goldsmith. it would have been one of your lines? og. Mrs‘ Manell, : Yes. | a \ | ‘Mr. Goldsmith. | I am referring now ‘to the 28 September | 10 | 1963. transcript. ‘Now, at the time of our interview, Mrs. " Manell,. according to the notes. taken by ban Haraway and Betsy. |: i | Wolf you did not indicate to us’ at that time that you did not: | e 13 | “see the transcripts. | . | oO an 4d Mrs. Manell. I.don't think you ever asked me that | | AAS | question. - | 6 | Mr. Goldsmith: - We certainly did. 17. | Mrs. Manell. “You aid not ‘ask me’ if there -was a =r I description. vou dia-not suggést 1 was incomplete in sending “19 | the cable or raise any question like that at all that: I - | | 2 | remember. I mean, t am saying that 1 sent everything that’ wag : a available to me when I sent that,cable and I, did not: mention “4 2 1 the Cuban Embassy.- “I would have mentioned the Cuban Embassy ' | . #@ 73 | | if I had. seen its. It is'a point’ of ‘wtien it. was recognized, , 24 | when.'it was decided that chese to anknoma were connected | } 2s 4owith, oswald. That is the pointy, ee on | HW 50955 Dogld: 32277219 ‘Page ad
22 | 24 HW 50955 . Docld:32277219 Page 89 TOP SECRET @ i 3 -either I didn't get: this for some unknown reason -- perhaps TOP SECRET a6 Mr. Goldsmith.. That is exactly the issue. ; | Mrs. Manell.. TI am just not sure. I don't know. . When did Boris link this up? _ Mr. Goldsmith. One moment, Mrs. Manelk. Mrs. Manell. “I remember those. There was something about this, the Cuban relationship becuase I remember being a bit annoyed, the more I think this thing through, about how come I didn't know about that. So there is: something. about they were holding it out to see if they could identify the person. I don't know. But there is something -- “Mr. Goldsmith. why don't you wait a moment . We are going to Look up our. notes, read ‘them to you and have you comment on them. 4 woh, “Tr am going to read you the notés that were taken. They - refer to you by your Agency pseudonym. "Dillinger was asked what action she took.after receiving: this transcript. | She said she had already Seen the prior transcripts and may have | rechecked.them. Because of the absence of information from. prior transcripts in the cable, Gestetner -- Mr. Manell ~- suggested that some of the prior transcripts may have been’. unavailable because. they were being routed around the: station. "An examination of some of the prior transcripts revealed routing indications that Dillinger acknowledged writing.” Mrs. Manell. .That is right. miioee:
TOP SECRET on red Mr..Goldsmith. "After checking the station's files’ for o 2| further information on Oswald, she said she wrote the cable 7 3 | Mexico 6453"-- that is the cable dated October 8 -- "and at r ) 4 the same time wrote a memo to the Legat. Dillinger ta ee - 8 acknowledged that the routing notation would have been writte . 6 |. on the transcripts when she first received them. Gestetner | 9 acknowledged that a filing instruction directing one of the 8 9/27 conversations to the Oswald P file was in his handwritin . | He indicated that this notation would have been ‘made at the | 10 | time the P file was opened. W "Both Gestetner and Dillinger acknowledged that the 12 | connection between the conversations was noted prior to the 13 | assassination." = | fe 14 Are those notes ‘accurate? . 1S i Mrs. Manell. ves. q don't believe Io am contradicting 16 i myself. It is a little confusing, I can see.’ I am trying i a 7 | to answer to the best of my ability but all I am saying is 13 that when I sent the first cable, if I had known about the 19 connection with the Cubans or I had associated it -- I may 20 | not have associated it because he was not named, that is the 7 only thing. — 22 | Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to stress again, the aim ® 33 here is not to catch you in contradictions. Please don't 1 | scoters me. We are trying to review ‘the record and “ys | have you explain it to us. 004 i BR . . . : : : : : aa ee pe nee ence ne a en ne ee ite ANNONA SERENE +e OR eee a : + . . TOP SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 90
TOP SECRET = sl Mrs. Manell. JI understand. I will try. a \ is no mention made to them in the cable dated October 8." 24 i] After we reviewed the transcript a’bit more you reconsidered - ca: oar 7 Mr. Goldsmith. -“Let ‘us move on to CIA 183. - oo 3 Mrs. Manell. Tt isn't that I am-saying now that I did B | 4 not see these in sequence. - - ) | Mr. Goldsmith. You mean you may not have made the | 6 connection? | 7 “Mrs. Manell. “that is right. That is all i am saying §. now in looking a at this because [I am ‘thorough when I do some- - | thing, you. can bet on i, and I dia not see or connect these » 10 |, things because he is not named in these transcripts. tt is - "| possible I saw them in’ sequence but because he wasn't named 2 I did not think that’ I could cnr it factually in the’ & 13 | ostnes a So: I sent the cable ‘as I did. | os 4 te can go around and acound, that aoe is Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, your explanation is per- 16 | .fectly undestandable. - | v Mrs. Manell. 1 am hot trying to obscure anything. * r.. Goldsmith. Let me see if I can summarize the 19 _explanation for you very briefly. °I don't want to -put words so in your mouth. Tell me if this is accurate. a When we first went over these transcripts your first 2) reqponse was that "I couldn't have seen these because there : 4 ; ; | : r somewhat and testified that you may have seen the earlier Metaed. a cern ce et enna pepe erent nt eet tng pet i ny AT SE = ent | entertainer HW 50955 DocId:32277219 Page 91 | TOP SECRET
1 | transcripts in’ sequence but that because none of those | transcripts. referred specifically, to oswaia by name,’ for that reason there was no reference made in the. October 8 cable to ; these earlier transcripts. | | Mrs. Manell. ves. Mr. Goldsmith..Is that accurate? 4 Mrs. -Manell. Yes. oo eB ) ; oa Gn vy & - CP) nD Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. In any event prior to the assassi- nation all.of the, transcripts were tied. to Oswald? 10 | Mrs: Manell. Yes. | Wi . ‘Mr. Goldsmith.’ Let -us move on to > CIA’ number 183. This . is a cable dated 11 October 1963 from CIA headquarters, to | Mexico City station. ‘Would you read. through that? \ ; a Mrs. Manell. Do I have know the content or are you “just establishing this is the one I saw? °° Mr. Goldsmith. I think you can skim it. If I have.a- specific question about, the content Iwill draw your attentio | | "| to it. Do you remember’ reading that cable when at came into | 19 Mexico City station? | . | | 0 Mrs. Manell.* ‘yesh 8 oe 21 | Mr. Goldsmith, | hose handwriting is this in the upper - sR | left hand portion: of the: page ‘which save “Sic underscored? ® 143 | Mrs. Manell: That is. Mr. scottis handwriting. This is 24 | nis, - - 2s Mr. Goldsmith. Also his check mark? oo | 2 re ea 7 . i 7 | S 7 | : _ oe ed ua fey voor become | TOP SECRET \ NW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 92 .
TOP SECRET = iit 20 7 Mrs.-Manell. Yes. | Mr. Goldsmith. Would he have put these marks in at the ‘time the cable artived at the Mexico City station? ) 7 Mrs. Manell. Yes, before he routed it he nit those in. Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Now, the cable refers to oswala as Lee “Henry Oswald? . - : Mrs. Manell. Yes, that is why he put "sic" beacause’ _ -e had it.as Lee Oswald. .He is.saying it is Lee Henry Oswald. | ae “ws a 7 : | LS a a SN NON CONTNNNNSLSRENN SEPT aera SRT . Te is the ‘fall name which may or may not be our man. That “ist 10 the. way I interpret it when he put "sic", . WW -Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Are you interpreting the term "sic" a 12 to mean, AKA, also “known ais? | | —_ | & 13 : Mrs. Manell. "Not necessarily. _t am saying this is the | Oe | 14 + way headquartérs has information oh Lee Henty’ Oswald who 1s may or may not be our Lee’ Oswald. that, is why he put “sic”. 46 : Mr. Goldsmith. “Genezally the term 'sic" is used to refe wh to a word or a subject and indicating that an error has been - 18 committed. 19 | Mrs. Manell. That is right. “| 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. When he refers to Lee Henry Oswald and j 7 sic is pointing to Henry do you think Scott is indicating there oe a 22 | was an error here, that it was not Henry, it was Harvey? ® . 7 3 | Mrs. Manell. The first time I saw this I interpreted ie} 2 | mean, and I am sure he meant. that, this is headwaters 7 2s H information on a Lee Henry Oswald. ‘We’ reported on.a Lee | So oo any ee — B01 e8 HW 50955 Docla:32277219 Page 93 a TOP SECRET -
TOP SECRET | Oswald. So he is saying this could or could not be. ‘| - : : t . erence nee gh: Perens essere rane tN rans Ane pane edna hers tinsunssntenesnnthetastantatnen tet en ARH Erte eee ey Sn . " + ‘ a 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Headquarters might be mistaken, it is a 3 | possibility? & 4 , Mrs. Manell. It is r possibility, yes. That is how I - _ 5 interpreted what he wrote. Not that -he couldn't be our man, 6 | he could be, but it is just that the name is different. op de: Mr. Goldsmith. Paragraph 5 indicates, "Please keep . 8 headquarters advised of any furither contact or possitive - | identification of Oswald." 10 | Mrs. Manell. Right. That would. suggest that if there 1 || was linage in all of that through here, I would think someone 12 = have written another cab le about all'of this. From 13 | here on it was not in-my hands. | an 14! Mr. Goldsmith. Please refer to CIA number 182. This is 45 : a routing sheet -- 16 | Mrs. Manell. Here is the date for the P file setup righ WV | here. | 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Whose handwriting is that? 19 | Mrs. Manell. That is Mr. Scott's. | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Scott is indicating here that a P 21 | file should be opened up, is that correct? “yt 22 | Mrs. Manell. Yes. @ . 13. | Mr. Goldsmith. A P file would have been opened up on . | Oswana shortly after October 11, 1963? Ae | Mrs. Manell. Yes. Prior to that. we would have had no ? t TOP SECRET a 081426 HW 50955 BDocld: 32277219 Page 94
Soviet contact information on him. mn ute Mr. Goldsmith. I would like to show you now CIA: number | Oswald's contact to be fairly significant, perhaps. by virtue | Lo 3 | 181 which is the headquarters copy of the October li. cable. iD | 4 yo it - indicates t that ‘Thomas ‘Karamassines was the releasing . - 5. officer. a" Mrs. Manell.. Yes. ly Mr. Goldsmith. Why would Mr. Karamassines be the releas, 3 ‘ing officer? | | | : . | | | 9 | . Mrs. Manell. 1 don't know. | 10 | Mr. Goldsmith. Bo you. regard that as unusual, someone | i. _ Lo ar | high up in the- organization’ ‘being a ‘releasing officer? | 12 - ; Mrs. Manell. Perhaps because all. of ‘the other “agencies - | 13 | are involved. 1 I- don’ t know. You would have to to know what | coe “Id the rules and regulations are, Maybe because these various | 1S | Port were involved. That may have something to do with | 16. why he released it. | | | | WV Mr. Goldsmith. So, those other agencies ‘would not as “| “1a: a matter of routine be ‘notified when an ordinary American | | | contacts the Soviet Embassy? - | “| Mrs. Manell: No. We would routinely notify ‘the Attache] a our headquarters would. have been notifed by cable and Lt would} | ous 2 | have been their: oresponsibility to notify appropriate authority, ip | Mr Goldsmith, By the time this cable reached Mexico | | | a nicy 4b was ; clear that CIA heddquarters anyway considered’ | | | | ONL130 HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 95
i | ‘ ) TOP SECRET ; a ay tt os his ‘background as a defector. Is that an accurate state- this. Mr. Goldsmith. They certainly considered it sufficientl important. to notify all thesé other agencies? “i Mrs: Manell: - Yes, Looking at his background, the fact that he had been in the Soviet Union and married a Soviet” ment? ‘jo. °° Mrs. Manell. I guess so. I wasn't, involved in all.of/ woman, there was something strange about him. . Mr. Goldsmith. This particular cable, referring to 183, po first. paragraph, contains a correct."description of Oswald,’ 12 does it not? S - 13 | Mrs. Manell. T don't know. I don't know, I never did os . 144 read how tall he was or anything elses: . a 15 Mr. Goldsmith. Tt ‘contains ‘a description that the | | : 16 Agéney had ‘on file for Oswald? a a a WF Mrs, Manell. “Fora Lee Henry Oswala,. right. oo 18. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether at that time anyone . ; “19 at Mexico City statioh went back to'the photograph to see _ . 20 -. whether they matehed? 0 ee | | ya Mrs. Manell.. I couldn't answer that. I dontt know. - | - op 2 Mr. Goldsmith. ‘On. number 183, in ‘the margin it says | e . | 3 24 years old. oe ° 7 | | : 24 | | Mrs. Manel. I don't know whose writing that is. I was | - as i Yooking at that. this is the same writing. I don't now ‘who’ . HW 50955 Doctld: 32277219 Page ‘96. ne TOP SECRET co
— «TOP SECRET = | wrote that. Mrs. Manell. I don't. think White wrote like that. Tt is not Scott's writing, it could have been White's ,;, it could have been Good pasture's. “It is ot mine. It is not Herb's beacuse 1 know his writing. It could have been someone in files. t oe Mr.’ Goldsmith. Is.it possible that it ‘is Ann Goodpastur ? Mr. Goldsmith. Now, number 182 asks about photos.. Mr. 4 _ ne | ‘| scott indicated -- fo | 10} Mrs. Manell. Yes, and put, all’ data we have into it and - "| then he has a questisn mark, photo: “ ghis goes to the file. .4 “42 That is’ me. vo Bo | : | / a 13 | | Mr. Goldsmith. this is action per paragraph 5 taken | | oe 14 October. 1963?" aoe 7 a | is Mrs. Manell. It looks like 15, it is 15 or 13. ; | aed Mr. Goldsmith. 1 believe Ann Goodpasture wrote “we cy . VW | snoute ask headquarters for. photo." She, is in paragraph | ; 4 i. | Mrs. Manell. That is right. | 19 | ur. Goldsmith. This’ says action was taken? . | | 20 | Mrs. Manell. I -took that. Phat is my writing. So we ; va | vote up memos. | | | ok t 4 My . 22 | Mr. Goldsmith. This here were it says "action per e | . "3 | paragraph 4 taken" does that refer to number 4 over here? | | 24 | Mrs. Manell. “Action per para 4 means down here. | - 25 H Mr. Goldsmith. The cable? oe oe | a oe - | . - 004432. “cocotme wey TOP SECRET HY 50955 Docld:32277219 - 7 o Page 37
TOP SECRET si ‘kets 1 | _ Mrs. Manell. Yes. I wrote that. That is my writing. - | \ nD Mr. Goldsmith. Now, I am referring you.to CIA 185. Gs This is a cable to the Director. fm Mrs. Manell. I don't know. I imagine Ann wrote that, 5 or Herb. 7 Mr. Goldsmith. this is a cable asking for the photo? -+ ? Mrs. Manell. Yes. 5 didn't send it. I think Ann did 8 because she was told to by Mr. Scott, he put “photos 9 |; question mark." -So that would have been her job. 10 Mr. Goldsmith.. Who wrote this over here? Mrs. Manell. - That is my handwriting. Mr. Goldsmith. Referring to action taken? ant i AS me Mrs. Manell. Yes. This paragraph here in the cable 14 which means the dissemination. as | Mr. Goldsmith. Let us Look at CIA number 187. Please 16 | read through that and tell us what it is. Would you identify | this document? 13 | Mrs. Manell. -It is a memornadum from Mr. Scott to the .| Ambassador, to the U.S. Ambassador. 20 | , Mr. Goldsmith. Who is actually the author of the memo? 7 7 Mrs. Manell. I was. 40 2 Mr. Goldsmith. This was prepared for Mr. Scott? 8 73 | Mrs. Manell. Yes. | 24 | “Mr. Goldsmith. This is in reference to the Oswald ae | | ‘contract, is that right?  & fot m9 aed] HW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page 936 TOP SECRET
10 JU Ww tn HW 50955 DocId: 32277219 Page 99 OP SECRET to them. TOP SECRET “Mr. Goldsmith. ° At’ the bottom of the page it. indicates . who else was to receive a copy? Mrs. Manell. . That is right. Mr. Goldsmith. Why were so many people given copies of this memo, do you -know? . Mrs. Manell. Because it was requested that we send it 5 Mr. Goldsmith, In other words ; ‘the cable requested that? Mrs. Manell. ves. | a ee Sone - . | Mr. Goldsmith. — So, the cable indicated that nesdauarterd was going to be routing this to the centrally ‘located head- aa quarters of the Agency in Washington, D. C., for example, wl and that Mexico City station was to contact the agency's Mrs.-Manell. Through memo, yes. | Mr. Goldsmith. Now, this memo is dated 16 October. It -} also makes no reference to the: contact with the Cuban’ Embassy./' | local offices in Mexico City? oe - | | Mrs. Manell. “Well, because we were’ just following and ~ doing what, they told us to do. Which is send this information; Mr. Goldsmith. Will you read paragraph 4 of the 183?. ~; Mrs. Manell. "Station should pass info ref in para L to those various, places." ref"?- | a | | | Lo ne | Mr. Goldsmith. What does that mean when it’ says “info, | i mo, | Mrs. Manell. Any information contained in the reference, | | | { 001134
oe » 22 | 24 HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 100 JOP SECRET i sss which was our original cable. . ft ee . Mr., Goldsmith: » Basically you felt that your obligation’ was to tell them only about the -- : | | Mrs. Manell. We sent everything but we did not.put in height, weight and all of that. Why did they need to know that? We gave them the basic information for indentifying the person by name. — We tole them what headquarters asked us + to tell them. : Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know if a memo was sent to the” other agencies when you found out that Oswald had been to the Cuban Embassy? _ Mrs. Manell. I-don't know. | { Mr. Goldsmith. Were any of these other agen¢ies ever | notified that, Oswald was seeking a. visa? . | : “urs. Manell. We notified chem as indicated here. | Mr. Goldsmith. vhis does not really say he is going to | get a visa though, referring to number 197, Mrs. Manell. ‘What’ do’we say in the cable? Did we say eo | it was a visa? ! Mr. Goldsmith. Here is the cable, it makes reference | to a telegram. “S0 the cable ‘does not refer to a-visa. | Mrs. Manell. Except we talk about consul. | | Mr. Goldsmith. “Would .a consul, be responsible. for srant-| ing a visa?._ | a | | “Mrs. Manell. You! might think that. I. think the logical BLES ‘|
- 8811386 | | a L| extn won be to think that. | a ‘| . Mr. Goldsmith. Essentially your’ memo to the Ambassador 3. "gave in substance the information that you had sent to head- @ 4 quarters in your cable with some additional information? - | 5. ‘Mrs. Manéll. ves, the infortiation’ that headquarters: | 6 asked us to send in addition. i : Da oth: 7 Mr.- Goldsmith. Paragraph 3 says "This office will aavisd, | you if additional information on this matter is received." + oF ‘Do you: know, whether: that information was ever sent? - | 10 | Mrs. Manell. r don't know. I don't remember sending | n | anything, T know. | ; rn 12 | Mr. Goldsmith. Mrs. Manell, if at the time the P file | @ 7 13 | had been opened up all ‘the ‘ergnseripts had been tied into a 1d | oswald, by then it was known that Oswald was requesting a | Is | visa; wouldn't that be a fair statement? | 16 | Mrs. Manell. ves. ce ; : . i” oo ; 17 | Mr. Goldsmith. Yet the memo to the Ambassador does ~ 12 |. refer to that. Is there any particular ‘reason why? | | . | urs. Manell. Because we handled it and we were very : a . 20 |. careful in what se sent people. We sent them factual infor~ | ; 21 | mation. We were told what to send and that. is what sent | | ‘22) based on the original cable and the additional information.“ ® 73 I did not reword it, in other words. ! aM Mr. Goldsmith. ‘You made" an affirmative statement that | 5 as you have no clarifying information. | | TOP SECRET BW 50955 Docld: 32277219 Page i101
22 24 HW 50955 Bocld: 32277219 Page i102 TOP SECRET sana be— eewrarutrerarnpaslaresanny sus sn serhgan? (tame sndpdendstheaascsty hgh say a En neh ose ines MAROON G66 tS AR EE EE RI A RE itn ete ener minarets AE SERS 8D A EE I EC Te TET ER ar reer ve anerraespapcaae pasate —ansesenascncernsaenanapoanatae 2 a a TT TOP SECRET =s—i(<ékstts Mrs. Manell. That is the way we decided to send it out. I don't know whether it is oversight on my part. Whether we just wanted togt it on the record or what, or did we want to give a whole grocery list about this man, I don't remember what went through our minds. I don't remember discussing it with anyone. Maybe I made the decision not to include the grocery list but give a bare outline. I did what headquarter asked me to, to the best of my knowledge. Mr. Goldsmith. The paragraph also indicates that you’ determined that Oswald had been in contact ‘with Kostikov. Mrs. Manell. ‘That is mentioned in the transcript. Mr. Goldsmith. How did you determine that? Mrs. Manell. It said so in the transcript. I just finished reading it awhile ago. He is identified here. Mr. Goldsmith. You are looking at the transcript of October ist? Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA number 13, which is the transcript from October ist, is there a reference there to Kost ikov? Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Referring to CIA number 177, the cable “dated October 8, here it reports that Oswald contacted the Soviet Embassy on 29 September. He spoke with consul whom he believed to be Kostikov. My question is, how would you get 00113% ! | | | | ! Fog | | t
a «i .* | 24 . - HW 50955 Doold:32277219 Page 103 TOP SECRET ee en eae ener erent petreen at renr are cee rere rere eet reper rere argnaassuasuronqnssunavensnsanaenanunar ttre varir or 0 re PO AR A ER AED Le SD AES TST OI : ae. from someone whom you believed --~- Consulate Section. That is a description of him. 'Kostikov was in the Consulate Section? -of Kostikov. But I knew a whole lot about him. I probably caesar snp enn an aa A OR EIT RNC Mrs.. Manell. We knew it was Kostikov. He was in the Mr. Goldsmith.. How did you .know that? You knew .that Mrs. Manell. Yes. Mr.: Goldsmith. Weren't there any other people in the Consulate Section ‘that Oswald talked to? | a decided that it was Kostikov. Mr. Goldsmith. - I have no further questions. I thank you for cooperating with us. Mrs. Manell. Is there anything that is unclear that — . Iocan help in any way? this matter prior to the assassination other than the cable that you think was sent to CIA headquarters? Mrs. Manell. I am’ sure. there was, but I didn't do it. I don't know. Mr. Goldsmith. pia you assist your husband with this case after the assassination? » | | Mrs. Manell. Yes, in terms of following Soviet movement yes, we did considerable work. on that. Mr. Goldsmith. Was that the only aspect of your: OUT tEs ¥' Mrs. Manell. ‘I don't «remember the physical description Mr. Goldsmith. Was there any additional action taken on ee eee ee ee
JOP. SECRET ms involvement? Os . a cn Mrs: Manell. As I recail, that. is what ve: concerned «| ourselves with.: Mr. Goldsmith. ‘Do-you know anything ‘about the 1977 Inspector General report? | . Mrs. Manell. No. Mr Goldsmith. Did anyone from the Inspector General's office of the CIA ever contact you? | | | | “ : . ! Mrs. Manéll. Ir have never been contacted, never. / Mr. Goldsmith. You have been very patient, Mrs. Mane1l. | ft want to thank you for your time. | Normally when we have a hearing, we. give the‘witness an, |. _ opportunity to make a statement... If you would like that opportunity now, please feel free... i Mrs. Manell: I can't think of anything. I have tried ro ne nr ©. eS ne sess pee ses ee to be as forthright. as possible. | Are .there any contradiction ae in your mind? ,I can see where we had difficulty over these & | —— : : “| transcripts. I’ am“just not clear, I am just not clear about 19 | time sequence. But I: know, if’’I-realized that this unnamed - 20.|- person was Oswald. and was. in touch. with the Cuban Embassy . | that would Have “been made’.a part of the original cable. Ther ee 22 | is-no question about my not including it. If I had had that ee i information.it would have been included. 24 | “Mr. Goldsmith. Thank you very much. i 2s is Mrs: Manell. You are welcome. ore - : TOP SECRET ss H¥ 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 104 |
1] | Mr. Goldsmith. If your husband would like to come in | Oo - 9i here, I can do a marathon, but if you would ‘like to ‘break for- 3 lunch,.that is fine. (Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the hearing was concluded.) I have “read the foregoing pages. wo through oe, inclusive, which contain a correct transcript ‘of the answsrs ‘made. by. me to ‘the woe oF questions . therein recorded. | 9 a | 4 : | | | . 10 | mo ; Signature is Subject to A“) | Ju [| (Deponent' Ss Signature). e. "| { ad oT, oO , Notary Public in, and © 1S | | for the District of Columbia, do hereby. certify that I am 167 7 notarizing and witnessing signature for the deposition of 17 | Mrs. Barbara Murphy Manell on ‘this’ _ day of _ 19 oo I . me, oe Notary Public ‘in and for “the ° Z 20. District of Columbia ; se 22 | My Commission expires | | 24 | a , | | [ { TOP SECRET 50955 Docld:32277219. Page 105
CERTIFICAT OF NOTARY PUBLIC arse on 3 I, Alfred Joseph LaFrance, the officer before whom the G3 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing: deposition da, ‘was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 5 6 taken by me in shorthand to the best of my ability and there-|- 7 after reduced to typewriting under my direction, that said | 8 deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said | a >| witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor | 104 employed by any of the parties to the action in which this | 7 1 ‘deposition was taken; and further that I am not a relative or 12 employeed of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties - ae 13 | thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the out- *l- ce 14 | come of the action. qo ist do: | 16 | . Notary Public in and for the VW District of Columbia { 18 . | | My Commission expires November 14, 1980 | 19 | | | | 20 | , { : 7 nt 22 | | ae! , | | | t HW 50955 Docld:32277219 Page 106 ; OP SECRET