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fe are OD SDRC A Rp aah 40 ret Reel #3 283 July 1965 AEFROVEW FOR RELEASE 1969 GIATHISTOR CAINREVIEWIEROCRA NIE eR LEAG 0 Se Nett NTR AIMEE nee tn ARON te tome al yO at” a a a oh How are thinss today: Concerning what.) In peneral; < adition; mood, What ind of ood mood can I be in. I have been sitting here 421 days = that is, 1S nonths; one year plus four nonths of a second year. (2G) Is it a secret or not, how you are counting. Why do you think it has been <c1; why do you thin that you are not nistaken. : vt No, it is no secret; no, no, absolutely . You understand; {t already, so to speak, has been de d,.as is mate ea a: et gaid, I have acquired sone tind of prison exper ié ce The habit of counting, etc., has been developed, and it has changed. Well, you understand, if I had countea from the very::beg ginns Oe » cay, by day, and each day, I would have become confused, but having come to a definite date, you throw out this date, but here you know: exactly 2 year has been completed, let us say, the third of April conpletes a0 year exactly. f Scere tagt tT oe 98 Drees oatgeinme Inet oe i an judging by myself; I would have been lo guch. a situation, I think; I would not know “how to calculate accurately -.
house. ’ y pave in mind that I... have developed... prison experience, tnercfd Tews eget is possible to check. But what did you have in mind waen you said “prison experience", that you had.. i had in mind that.... ice ...At sone time had prison experiences: Never in my lize, with the exception of the tine I was in the quarde . +t “t ed ‘$ 4 z 4 3 3 C(XG)) ((A and B speak at the same time)) A long tine is necessary to develop and.... eee This is not longs. What do you nean- It has been a great length o: tine. There are people who sit in prison 10, 15, 20, 25 years, and even their whole life; then, I understand, one will gain prison.é develops; a person learns sone other... but for you it he. as been only a little more than a year. : 3 One can serve time in different ways, one can serve time in different ways. You know, (XG) you yourself raised this question. One can do time in different ways. I understand it thus: a person is doing time; he knows why; a criminal, he has Killed someone, or he hg “robbed a person, he has raped someone; he knows why he is ; doing time. dpsantatiewen eee TT
i pahsastninaseraenetepansen tee Chen POLLtiCal OL en eee a nee ee ene oe nee why he is doing tine, and he has been given a sentence of 2 3 or 4 years, he counts off the tine. a wo , oo While I do not know why J am doing tine, absolutely; when on the basis a ; of suspicion alone, when precisely only in uy position, a person who has lost absolutely, absolutely everything; I absolutely have nothing, . and I do not have anyone, neither friends nor, well, I absolutely Am alone, quite alone. 3 oy wdvd beet PEALE AA TRE Moses « There an I «- a finished foul traitor, the nost foul, who certainly. Rage already been sentenced to death; here I sit... a A. What are you thinsing -~ that the hangman's rope has been waiting for you for a long time? B. I do not doubt this; of this, I have no doubt. A. Do you still think that... you will not find an answer to the question: “Why are you here”. ' B. Because they do not believe me. It is the only reason. A. If the question stands thus, I think that we might continue our conversation; perhaps, finally, anyway, we will find, as I said in our last meeting, we will. find a common language. Perhaps you will give me supporting information (podtverzhdeniye) , ~~ Q something other than what you said earlier. ' The last time we began to speak of your arrival in diéscowfws952,,. when , _— you said that you had arrived there from the Baltic. I think that perhaps we will go back a little bit and throw some light on one more question. X wanted to ask you — before this, how many years were you in the Komsonol: 'B. From 1943 to 1954. “
Frage, B. Yousonol punishnents. For the whole period in the Komsomol, I had only one purishnacnt, received in the KGB in 1354 @=— a severe reprimand and warning. How was this written up. For wiat was it civen. You see how it was.... Ye do not need an explanation; I know In the Konsonol, no... I just want to say one thing w- that the Xonsonol did not go into detail. ; y Apparently, such instructions had been given the Ko For using a cover document, an operational cover document, for personal purposes.... For the use of.... Operational documents for personal purposes. .. Operational documents Hr personal purposes. Yes. . 4 And nothing more was said. Ho. And you remember this wording exactly: Yes absolutely . And the same wording was used when an administrative punishment was a
T4-GORO Re veo B. Nothing was said to me. Only orally, several tines at nectings, ve were ‘reninded of. faults", “noral faults". Why did the Xomsomol not work it So == "for immoral conduct and for moral faults".... Likewise, there was ho such working in the acninistrative decree; instead, it said simply for the use of an operational document or aca docunent... Administrative punichnent of 15 days arrest was’ given ne by FEDOTOV . Exactly the sane kind of wording was used in the Kuasomol . And Komsomol did not deal with.... the ides is that the .Koasonol mus: tale this up with me in detail... how this cane about... wa6".. what. but they did not take this up. Well, if you were a Konsonol member from 1953 to 1954.... Since 1943... i 3 “t 5 From 1943 to 1954... do you remember the month in which you became & 4 member’? i entered the Komsomol in 1943; I do not renenber the month; I do not remember. It was in 1943 in Baku in the preparatory school, yes. You do not remember the month. {I do not remember. Was it in winter, summer, spring, or fall. No, I do not remember, I do not remember, T° I an afraid to say.
7400808 > Se ne ee Th BR a a ate a te ‘And when did you leave the Komsozol. is née “deneinda ne Co” sn Raw wenswus 9 dueeo ws ERS AW Be dy eS ES A eS say. = — I do‘not remenber, I remember exactly that it was In what year. F I left the Konsomol at the end of 1954. _ OO : post in the Homsonol. . A ; So. Just a minute. I received a double punishment. Xi was Secretary of a Komsemol orcanization, and I was Well, this was not a punishment. 3 Where were you a Xomsomol Secretary. In the Second Chief Directorate (glavka), in the Second Chief Directorate Of the entire Second Chief Directorate. Yes. There were only 13 or 15 Xomsomol members, together with the typists. From what time were you ((secretary)) there: , Jd From 1943... 1953; to my thinking, in 1953, at the end of 1953, I was elected Secretary of the Party organization of the Second Chief Directorate. Fa “
B. . What served as the basis for clecting you Seerctary. UODK -— Directorat for the Protection of the Diplomatic Corps. Bd You say that this was approximately at the end of 1953. - The reason I say approximately is because usually the elections are held at the end of the ycar «=. September, October, August.... arte . megistets* You had just bevun working there. W6ll, Ilbegan working in March. I think, you see why -- the Nomsonol orsanisvation was very small == in the main thore were only 4 or 3 fro: anong the omrational esployees js. the rest were not operational but support peonic -— Seerctaries, typists. Approximately how many Komsomol necbers were there 2° Second Chief Directorate. About 15 people there. But you must.... Well, the UODK is not included here; I have in mind that surveillance does not enter in here -- in this Komsomol organization. . How do you s@y it — UODK. Earlier it was called... this is surveillance over foreigners. ‘Earlier it was called what, and what is it now: And now this UODS has been combined with the Seventh rec ae Preed re ee i ' i v4 a i
a. ‘sich foreisners. Servicing all foreigners. Tac First Departuent, the Second Devartuent, the Taird Department. No, I have in mind, fron the adainistrative point of view, not the - <gg operational point of view, een eee pee ? Oh... this was HID UPD BYUROSIy, fornerly BYURODIN; now it is called UPD: Tais is MID. DYCROBIN, and what do you say UPDE. UPDX =. what does if nean. it now is called? _..-- Directorate for Servicing the Diplomatic Corps. Tnere, the chief is SIUKOV, the former ambassador to Indonesia. There was always an employee in charze. There was always Second Chief Directorate. Well, then, if we put everything into place, the Second Chief Directorate, it was called UODK. UWODK -~- this was the Directorate for the Protection o Corps. He was a colonel at the time, but soon afters: pecame a general. This is surveillance over foreigners, headed by General BOYKOV. “when you befan ‘oowork it £ the Diplomatic Onn Ce. Sy ae aes ‘aeteaatlic pula’ shud fad oes. a ; eb wal
74960007 = - “He, In approx inately 197°, approinately 1953; it was given Seventh Directorate. mS Redon 7 Do you. now approximately when the Von was organized. I lnow that it was the former Departnont 2-2 or 2-I -- 1 co not j remenber exactly; I do not remember «= headed by Colonel Konerskiye? = There was such a Colonel NORETSNIY and there were the Departments 2-2, 4 2el, 2Zh in the Second Chief Directorate, which were responsible for - surveillance over foreicners. ; oe a It was before ny tine. When I came in, it was UODE, and it was headed by TOYA 28 And when did they organize BYUROSIN. BYUROBIN also was before I caae in, BYUROBIN -~ it was the bureau for servicing foreigners. But it was subordinate to the Winistry of Foreign Affairs, and it is still subordinate to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but it is not BYUROBIN ~- it is the UPD. " Practically speaking, there are now two organizations waich are respon sible for foreicners... servicing then. What two organizations. £ 7 Well, you said — the UODK, which combined with the Seventh Directorate. Well, it is not for servicing; the UODK is for surveillance of foreigners. Well, the name itself
14-GO00% +. A. “KGB Directorate for Moscow City and Moscow Oblast.” - You know, it is requested that they check a citizen's way of. life, collec it was called Corps; abbreviated, Preotection of the Diplomatic Corps. And parallel with this, there is the UPD: - 4 Just a minute, just a minute; you are sonewhat confused. . ve eats In 1933 «- BYUROZIN -- this is the Directorate for the sere#éinc ti Coe eh a o andainin teint LS TERRIA TA tlhe. Diplomatic Corps. You are absolutely right. asthe Bat And this belonzs to MID, the HWinistry of Foreicn Affairs. wh Advis Put the UODK «= that is the &GB. ; i Tais is the surveillance over foreigners. Now it does not exist, since this work has been turned over. entirely with all of the cauipment, 211 of the surveillance porgoannt chiefs —_ all have been turned over to the Seventh Directorate. tt ee Because the Seventh Directorate — for what was: itz Only the investigative personnel and the surveillance of Soviet citizens; that is all. And, then, from 1958, the CODX was incorporated in the Seventh Directorate. Then, the Seventh Directorate is in charge of surveillance now. Moreover, two years later, from 1953, or approximately in 1960, the Seventh Directorate gave all of its investigative=porsot ative personnel w= earlier, it was their main work -- gave them to the BT cat peat ee And now they are not responsible for investigative work, as such . 4 1. references and so forth and so forth. 1fz this work was carried out earlier, the entire work, by the Seventh Directorate «~= this is a huge apparatus -— then, it was turned over, the entire work, to the Directorate for Moscow Oblas Then, on the day you leit Moscow -- if I understand you correctly omen
MAA ee DPERINN oaee ee OES Lem tee (oe ana ccpaah 72 angARt ER patti actahhte cud apm AeA 0 ee RS SS REE Re ES Oh a EG WE MY tie SEVGHtE UireEcte 1964, was in the UPDK. { Tne Seventa Directorate. a And parallel to this, there existed the UPD. i ; Ho, g This is not the GB, this is the "IID. | ! The UPDE -— this is the Directorate for Servicing the Diplonatic Corps | What are the tasis of this UPDX. oe coon os 2 The Embassy, any enbassy wishin... setting workers, coors, charwonen, =- : chauffeurs «<j. these people vere sotten through the UPDK. 7 ° Tickets #—-— railway, theater, ctc, -— were ordered through. the uPDx. "ag, Everything vas done through the UPD. ee — _ This directorate works entirely for the embassics, all the embassies =. “ both the so-called democratic ones, such as Czechoslgvaus others, of the Western countries. All the embassies. . i Repairs were made -— electrical, plunbing -= everything was done throuch the UPDK. : This directorate -- a UID directorate -- was established for the . : servicing of the diplomatic corps. : i : Were there nany Second Chief Directorate employees with UPDK. : In the UPDE, there was one staff employee there “for many years; he was BYUROBIN = FILATOY. FILATOV was in charge for many years, approximately; “apbioxilittely .. 2" " When did FILATOY go on pension: “4 . He went on pension approxinately.. . (2-36) in 1961. 7 i - And they put there Mikhail Mikxhalovich SUMSKOY, who, as of January qe q i “4 He has-an office in the UPDE. True, if FILATOV was chief of a directorate... Chips Department of the UPDK... then SUMSXOY... they promoted him’ to deputy chief. of the directorate.
And SUMSKOY is from the “GB; he is the deputy. as far as I uncerstand you, the Directorate for the Affairs of the Diplomatic Corps. is in the tinistry of Foreign Affairs and there is a sinzle operational enmployce.... Staff man. ee ...Of the Second Chief Directorate. It is unother thing that there are have retired and were lookins for work... I know that (1G) worked there for scvcral months...° “ee ss Vell, we will not.... SUKHANOV worked there for several months. Approximately, woat is the total staff of this UPDX, the total staff. ((Pause)) They occupied... in 1962-1963, they moved to another place; they occupied during all of the years ~— ag far as I know «= from 1953 | to 1962 a three-story building on Stanislavskiy Street, the entrance from Herzen Street, and foreicners went there. How many people could be housed there. There was a Personnel Section,... Well, approxinately, how nany I am afraid to say. Well, two hundred, three hundred. Not more, not more. crea eeene eepreet:ge toe pom Ee anit ed Heng 6 tdi nar ace ss aie c.
ee Ss. Senne Pee, 6" ® aerate ace ate mee pete Pte eat hg EE long time in the Second Chief Directoratey=ai Just a minute; here is an interesting thins; just Let us assume that all of the wor'sers in the UPDX in the entire building amount to 200 -» 150-209. Yes. But not all of tne workers -- the Soviet citizens wao worl: in all of the enbassies -- are housed in the UPDI. They work at the enbassies as chauffeurs, vardeners, cnarwonen, cooks. i But t: oy are UPD workers. Well, I am asking how many in all, including.... On, with these. This I do not t:nov. Well, how many. Two thousand, three throusand. XI do not know. Well, if we consider that there are 70 enbassies in tloscow.... 70 enbassics: Well... Well, how many will the UPDE have, approxinately? Well, the American Embassy, the largest Embassy, hundred twenty Soviet citizens working there. The rest of the embassies are small, and they have few people. I would say that there are approximately 1,000 people working. Well, I proceed from he following -- if you worked there for : the basis of information from the Seventh Directorate and, furthermore, o ra etree tae TTT at mem a AME parenere oe te ae spat me map Sit nweing fegime,o bete é 4 4 & 2 a a 2 oe eee RARE om rE : be
1 Ae gt tBitaeeee eh AEE AY * Oe EG! SEND ap ane semaig ee ae" Se eee’ Neate “ier tar tet rind sie” eee ate Nel di APE PSE A ES Se PS Sn’ Seventh Directorate w= I tate it that you had frequent con ac. both tacs? and those == with the people of the Seventh Direc the Directorate for the Affairs of the Diplomatic Corns «= because without then you could not tale a step. H i 3 B. Right, rivht, 4 eee 4 A. Taerefore, ny question ig == and I think there is 3 basis for ne Sage : Wiig m=. well. the total staff of the UPDK, the nuncrical. comple:scat. ~ : Tam not as:ing zor the exact number; one can nake an estinaatc. Z : B. My estinate is 1,990 employees, Sovict approxinately . A. Approximately a thousand. B. Soviet citizens who are working in the embassies. : A. Does this also include all of those on the staff of the UPDK in the directorate, and those waich.... . B. No, I am taking into account those who are ((on staff)) in the direce | ‘ torate. There are 150 people on the staff and 1,000 in the embassies A. A thousand in the embassies. ' Well, we will say there are approxinately 1,200. - = i. B, Yes, yeS, approximately. - 7 4 A. Approxinately. _ 7 . po Well, we will drop this question for the time being. ese, B, Well, this figure could be questioned -— it is not exact. ypeere N,
= exper ah anh he GF FOR EP Mer ma Ee It is not possible. re conversation -= akhout the We will return to the initial thene of our Konsonol . As you said, you were in the “onsonol 1943 until 1054; you éntered, con maenm igi epeeneqeses ee im 1954.... and sonevnere wos Bahan Pasta wheat aca { eft the Konsomol for reason of age. For reason of age. And, for sone tine, you were the Secretary What was What was Komsonol Konsomol Well, of the Konsomol organi ion called it called Orcanization No. Organization.... Collective No. 2. Collective No. 2. peeeetie alone eg eeieas © ate Well, what did you have a Comittee. + t i ; ‘ t i . Well, what was it called: Komsomol organization. And nothing.... ‘There was only a Secretary, a small bureau of Komsomol . We will return to 1952, with regard to the
7490900.» B. ealled @= in HNarch 13953. Where were you enrolled in the Nomsomol at that tine. Up to March. During the tine that you left the Caltic area and when you began wortiing..... Where. i continued to be enrollcd in the Baltic area. At Sovets*. And when you left there for a period of time you were not taken off the list. No, of course aot. Where did you pay your dues. I was not payins dues anywhere. I paid the dues for the several nonths XY did not pay as soon as started workincz. XY paid for January, February, for larch. And where did you pay for December. Well, I left Sovetsk in December. When did you leave in December?’ At the end of December. Around New Year's. At the very. end of December. ct epee ert ames cerki aia Rha ce ap ee ee ee omen Peinrscweces - wheal 3
TA00D00 +15 Sas se se ae Seema: Bene mo emer immer erat MDa am Be emo es came rn ed Sey" ge ammar'g TIT ee a —- B. Well, waen you «et paid --.around the 22nd or 23rd of the. ronti | i A, Then for Becember you paid there. 4 B. I paid. 4 i A. And when you pot into the XGD. : Tnen you paid at one tine. : B. I paid for danuary, February and March. A. When you cane into the KGB -= tell ne, briefly, the whole preced : your Konsonol business. When did you first visit the Komsonol Committee in enrolled. B. I do not remember. Iam afraid to say, I am afraid to say. Of course, it was about the time I began working. I asked about the Komsomol organization. i : I spoke with the Secretary of the Konsomol organization and introduced nyself. A, What Secretary. — , ~ - | B. In the Second Directorate, but I do not remember whOste wast &. You replaced him in this position. B. Yes, yes. “A. Well, who was the Secretary. aagghai Afterall, you took his place. and I think you should renenber. his name...
FAQOOO] gt eet ae eae ps A. A. Ye must have continued wortiiny in tne Second: Chic? Directora Yes, he entered the Party; he was actepted as mn candidate Party member, 7 but who. One of the fellows. LATE emrtene en 2 ere eer tee pena Very well, you net hin.... I renenber wno too: over fron ne, but I do not remenber from whom I too over. ies teen Yery well, you cane to see hin, and you were accepted into the. AGU By the way, when you spoie with SHUSNYAXOV, did he spea': with you about belonging to the Party. I do not remember. Of course, he must have asked. Of course, he asxed. j Figure out the age at which you were when you cane to Hosow and began T to wort in the KGB. Twenty-five. i i Can you be a bit more precise’. I had passed ny twenty-fifth birthday at the end of 1952. In 1952. In October, October 30.
27, SERRE TS phe Ma ALPE att GET MR om 2 Tate, Ble Be, aE Bee, Until they are 27. Froa what date, were members allowed to remain members until they were 27: This is indicated in the Regulations; I do not know froa what time. It is indicated in the Regulations, that one can remain a Xonsomol ms until 27 years of age. me Te ; . What Regulations estal:lish this. The Konsomol Regulations. on a Of what year. I do not remember. It !s established in the Komsomol Regulations. Well, I think that if you were a Secretary of a Komsomol organization, you should remember accurately whether it was the Regulations of 1353 teen teeta 8S anemone or 1954 «= I will not insist on the year it changed -— Xomsonol members could remain in until they were 26. t The Regulations now state that you can renain at that time.... No, no, no; that cannot be. When the question about my Komsomol reprimand arose -— whether to remove it -= when they removed me as a Komsomol Secretary.. - in 1954 was not yet 27. . at qhen, in October, or in the beginning of October — that is, when I om
14-0808 5 See ape ay aT SO RE Age ORD inn “ae ye eeabec™ “sine esas tae ante"? oapenearsctne ke" gy" Baa O** apr ae ancy °° Np ge “eaten cage eee ap cake eda "ele Saree EaNE See ERE SS Of course, I cannot accept what you are explaining to nelnow: It does not fit. ! '~ 4 Because the new Regulations... it is true that Komsonol menbers may : 3 _renain as Konsonol members until they are 27.... 7 i 3 B. That is the way it was in 1954.... . ee A. ...But in 1953, 1954, 4 ((XG; A and B speak at the same tine)) : Until the age of 26.... B. It was the same way in 1954 -—~ 27 years of age. A. I am not going to bring you the Regulations and show then to you. ; : B. You do not have to. Because, otherwise, I would not have been able to get out of that aifficult situation. ane ee tpn anti. A. Furthermore, you said that you got out of the Komsomol because of age and -- correction with the punishment in 1954; you got out at the of the year. A. There is no reason to talk about the age, 27; It already was 26 ((in the Regulations)) i - i. B. 27. i : . _ Im October of 1954, I was 27 years oid. H i hi L A. Well, there are members who remain after
It is not half a year, if you please. “* ae, A. After your talk with the Secretary of the Kozsonol , organization eo i whose name you do not renember -- of course, it is difficult for me to ., believe that you toox up the duties of Secretary of the Konsonol | organization and became the Secretary for the Second Chictgbiire ate abirdh Megede dng Tbotee. abs Sab eget” and you cannot remenber who he was. B. I do not remember. A. I presume that, if they elected you Secretary of the organisation, th you were an active Xomsomol uenber. Apparently, you must have had cood qualigications, since you had worked there for a short tine; and I think you should know fron waon you toox over. Let us talk logically. B, Now, you see, you yourself worked in KGB -— but, even if not in the KGB, but just in the Soviet. Union -- you sugsest logically discussing this, but you tell me such a strange thing. You know how things are run. a eetepteners ee This is not ((a big)) committee. What kind of files are there. You keep a list of the members -- these 20 poor souisz== enrollment documents. hs numbers. Then you take this list and the money to the Komsomol organization. What kind of files are there: 7 . None at all. A work plan, for exanple, for a month == what measures are taken, what meetings and discussions are held on such and sucha the Taat is all.
ee BRO OAI pe ee 'fhere were in all two, three ~ four operational Yam telling you the way it was. af What files are there. No matter wiat files there aight have been -- even if you had only a file box or tvo sheets of paper, you nevertheless became the Secretary. of a Konsonol orcanization. Right, right. Furthermore, before you can become the Secretary for the Konsonol organization of the Second Chicf Directorate, before they give you complete authority, what precedes this This is not 2 powerful organivation. I told you it consists of secretaries and typists. were technical support personnel, And you were the Secretary of the Komsomol organization, so Yes, It is not just that a man takes a file box containing the files and that is all = what precedes this, so that you are, and have the authority, of a Secretary of a Xomsomol organization: ein a ((Pause)) You are right about what you have in mind;,,but the. organiza- Titanate es peat E tion of a huge plant or of a large coliective.... Let us not talk about a plant or another big organization; we are talking now about the Second Chief Directorate, the Komsomol organiza- tion of the KGB. cae nant nena werner © wenetme + Sit. ferme gee eer ese eager emits + aa iee wt hte! altar i pete dh oe venice ini
Led rs on eS ety A. Who was the Komsomol Committee representative? B. You said that you took over the files. organization. What preceded this event and your becoming a real Secretary of a. Konsonol organization. To become a real one, I do not know, but I The way you put it == you simply took over the files, If you were the Secretary of a Komsomol orcanization, you must ka This is even printed in the Regulations -—- what the procedure is. First of all, there was a report and elections mecting; the old. =: Secretary delivered the report; then a representative of the,KG Konsonol Comuaittee attended the meeting; when the report had been delivered, it was pronounced that the work had been satisfactory Just a minute; why must I ask you ten times before you begin answering ne. Now, really, are such as meetings so important: I want to find out how you became a Secretary. If you please, if you please... the Secretary deliver d_ the repor. for example, that eight meetings were held dur ing the ‘tenure. There was an evaluation of the work. Then, the KGB Komsomol Committee representative speaks-~— they already had decided that there would be a proposal by the Komsomol Committee to put Conrade ((B's surname)) up as a candidate for Secretary. And that is all. I also do not remember. ati bike i s q 1 eee aetde teed Fee i id aebe Mbbe a in 4 ‘ “ie
Vhat else: ‘On the following day, we got together,~ It is quite difficult for me to believe that the Secretar a Komsonol organization of the Second Caief Directorate at ene pate sa oulha does not remember from whom he too over and likewise tocs not know the name of the nan who worl:ed in the ZGB Komsonol Coanittee. t “ Well, I do not remember who was there. | 4 I knew several people who had contact with the Second Chief Directorate, i 4 Harat SOXOLOV and KALININ, Anatoliy. , Who was there. 3 Perhaps one of them or somcone else; I do not remember. ~ Well, if it was Marat, then it was Harat. I do not renember, It was these two men who maintained contact with’ te, both of then. , Well, wnat, after the results of the election meeting. | ; You were elected: what then. We then @lected a bureau of three people for our Komsomol organization. i What else. : Who were the members of the bureau. | e I do not remenber; a girl, the typist, a secretary -- I do not remenber. | What -- three, with you, or were there four. Three, with me, because this was a very small Komsomol organization. : a ¥ The meeting ended after this. Ry
‘I do not remember anything. — Lh sey jase - - Well, how were you personally clected Secretary. Vell, right there at the Xomsonol necetinz; you see, at that time... Why aim I telling you about a large Xonsonol organization. fhe larce orranizations elect a bureau; then the bureau gets together andmlects a Secretary. 7 ted Dut this was a small organisation -=- 12-15 persons. You said that there was a bureau composed of three people. Well, in all; with me included. Along with you. Well, did they elect a bureau, or did they elect you alone’ tet They elected three of us, but they immediately elected me Secretary. You understand ~— this was an unusual method, because this was a snall Komsonol organization. I have said that this is not the way it really happens in large Komsomol organizations, or in the Party organizations, where first a bureau is elected, and then the bureau on the following day gets together to select and elect a Secretary. Well, as a former Secretary, tell me —- on the-bas: ter how are the elections carried out in a Komsomol organizations consisting of 15 people. You said there were approximately 15 people; how are the elections carried out: Who is elected, and how is he elected. ((Pause)) I do not remember; who, how, how the elections are held. -— Is it logical or not, as a Secretary who knows the procedures well <= one coe nates eaten Sow Ee eee | i last binib steoe bth bate abs 16. iil ee? econ es a deDh ai cae Sool
RRP SE SEF NEED SEP AP” Bet Se GG ERR SERIE SERED SUR SERS Se SE ee ee ee “((Pause)) Is it so difficult. B. 1 do nof remember, I do not remember. | - A. Well, you know it is very casy to say that you do not renember. : ; | | t H 8. Well, I really. do not renember. ((XG; A and B speak at the sanc timc)). f A. <A person who was elected Secretary must know how he was elected. : EB, They elected me at a neeting. They elected two other nembers from our Party ... Komsonol orranization. A. Well, who were they. 7 B. I do not remember; I think they were two girls, and both were typists. s A. You do not remember the names. How were the elections held. How actually were the three of you elected. + aneseactn cette Setpestenrtie B. No; I lied to you == one was a typist and the second secretary of the German Department -- Nina... right’ A. Well, that is not important; what is her surname?....« B. Nina, Nina, Nina... I do not remember. A. By the way, you mentioned the German Department; in 1953, who was the Chief of the German Department of the Second Chief Directorate: v0 é _. Bae Nose g aeate
KONDRASHIN; the third... I do not reneaber. And you are sure that in 1953 in the Second Chicf Directorate, there; was a German Department, that a secretary of the German Departaeat was™ elected to the bureau. ((Pause)) Yes. Well, it was not responsible for embassy work, but for Gernans who left in the territory... well, it was the German Department, ,0r imaigrant walt mene organizations, and likewise on a level with PERETUGOV *s “depart $ Ata em RRET, which handled the Sixth... the Third -= Germans m= but how else I will ask you again if you are sure that there wis Yes, the German Department ((speaks with uncertainty)) was there. Think about it. (XG) I do not remember. I know that there was a German Department. I am asking if there was a German Departnent in °1953 sure of this. I do not remember; I do not remember. Well, if you do not remember, then probably you do not remember very well that the person who was elected a menber of the Komsomol organi-~ gation bureau was not from the German Department. Well, she was from the Third Department; secretary in the Third Department. * + cen ete a RD RORDD -eREE om Me } t i ‘ 3 H PSUR Or rer Te an ibe aR
ee ee ADE BTR RPAw aD AEP WA Sede Gey WAT G go BEE de ded FW os « o A. B. - I was in the First Devartment. ' How can you say that and she was working there when I was in the Nonsosel orrant? was 2 honsonol nenber. if you do not remember whether there was or was not a German Departuent, how could a person from the German Departuent have been eleete Tae German Department, the Gernan Department. Fell, I will ask again -- are you sure there was a Gernan Department. ((Pause)) I am not absolutely sure of anything; but I inow it was German Departnent from which this Nina was a member of the. Komsdy orcanization of the Second Chief Directorate, and she was elected to the bureau. | ; : I am asking for the third time whether or not you are sure, whether you know exactly or do not know, was there a German Department in 1953 a8 ao Sgt eee 8 or not. There was a German Department in 1953; there was. ae ent pene arRat S DT gTe If there was a German Department in 1953, where were you at the time: Because there was no German Department. cane plibinwensnn wtaeuninay ome Serr , How can you say there was a German Department when there was no such Department in the Second Chief Directorate in 1953: ((@Pause)) To my thinking, there was. You.see, I am not insisting that you make XY am simply asking whether there was cs
2 os nec dege ene ROSETTES cant ree Le tt MER heme cone ages meee Be ‘Chi. € Directorate’ probably will ‘:now exactly wadther™ “eHet To” =—_S a CY you,were. elected Secretary.... -GAn incorrect conclusion. ) fo ny thinin:, there was a German Departnent, because Nin secretary of tac German Departzent. A man wo worted there in 1953, 1354, and who worked there until 1964, and who was a Secretary of the Zonsonol organisation of the Secone ieee ett German Departzent or not, and he will not say “to ny thincing™ or “probably " . . OF -_ ee Ye will only answer precisely wiether there was or was not one there. Why do I tell it to you this way -- "to my thinking there was" do not tell you for sure. oe : or sania? * Because I do not remember exactly the name of the chief of the ment, You cannot renenber it because there was no such Department. ((Pause)) To ay thinking there was. XI do not remenber. I will think, I will thin: (XG) C(Pause)) Well, we will return to the sane question -=- how wre the members of the bureau elected. % do not remenber; I do not remenber this. Am I right in concluding that you were not a Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate: If the conclusion is not right, you were an act jue.Kousonob enbersé severe cmatea epee memento + rect {etre AOU nae OR ww Lae eee ne wmnE Te +
reemnen treat = same GeO reinns, GAS Heh ab Nore oscars oy oo ap SED, ae (lau; a ana spean ed ‘When we have time, we will talk about this. ‘you were a Secretary, where there were approximately 15 people, where ‘How does an elected Secretary become 4 Secretary’ “What else follows. ee e¥OU See What the matter was- I do not remenber. You can drav that conclusion on the basis of that. I do not renember; I do not remember. ee ae e people; Very well, let us assume that the bureau was elected -— thr you and two girls. Let us assume that. What else. . ((Pause)) What clse. I already have nentioned twice At waat time. Well, the bureau is elected... We are talking about the organization of the Second Chief Directorate, pe amasae facepnentest nce oy where there were approximately 15 Xomsomol members. Do not tell me about big organizations, because I know about them very well -- about both the large ones and the small ones. I am talking only about the one in which you were. J answered you. Q Cy & 0) i fod Q. o & ° ct 3 et er ce) et i) La et $3 s 1] fo] ct B 63 o o B Q u 6 et? Q g Fe) & a @ pte es & 9 we is] 6 so, we will get to the raykom and the Komsomol CC: Right now, I want to know about the Second Chief Directorate, in which a bureau of three people was elected, although you do not remenber the names of two.
ae Serer roe ered a8 oe wig Barham artic mateo eb, whey B. Taere is a nectinz of this bureau innediately after the mecting, a meeting of this burcau. A. What does this burcau do. caeepyepemete enmpettnant oe sete me + B. This bureau elects the Secretary. Oh, my God! Well, weat do you want: A. (C(Pause)) This still is net all; there is something else. that is the Secretary supposed to know I want to find this out and now exactly; if you tll ngs I will believe that you were 4 Secretary. If you do not tell nme, then you were not, just betwy B, Why “between us™. Po, A. Even I, for example... it was very, very interesting -~ and sad == for ne, of course, to hear you say that, at that tine ((one could remain in the Komsomol)) up to 27 years of age.... B. Up to 27 years of age; absolutely. ' A. Now ((it is)) up to 27 years of age; the Regulations have been ‘ ‘ amended mW. then, it was up to 26, and now, it is up to 27. | ((XG; A and B speak at the same tine)) B. I was up to 27 years of age. | A. If you were a Secretary, you must know. B. In accordance with the Regulations, I was in the Komsonol up to 27 years ened eee ee of age: oa
oF pha Rok o Wed aba dA rte bon, Not one dizit: The first was 19, and then... 19 and then... well, a Gedigit number. Well, I do not insist that you remember this number, although you know a WS “9! that a Komsomol mamber has to know his number just as a soldier kine his rifle nunber. Well, we wlll assume that this matter too place long ago. I do not insist that you iknow the number, althouch this nuaber is repeatedly asi:ed for by the Secretary of the ! Konsoiol “erg IJ do not remenber; I co not remember the number of my Par ty identificatio and you ask me about the Komsonol number, when Yr € If you do not remember your Party card number, then we will return again to this, and I will pose a great question of whether or not you were a Party nember. That is another question, I simply told you as an example that I do not even recall my Party ecard number. And I say that if you do not even remember the number of your Party card, I then raise the great question of whether you,.wer rant the Par’ at all, or not. You see what your approach is. Because there can be no other. How can I approach this question otherwise --_ ceeds Nepean eit te ee tetas chee teRRRIA emmy eee
Z told you how: i“ The most simple and common procedures. At the beginning, you told me it wis simply 4 Nonsonol orranization, but then it was a bureau, But there was only one Komsonol organization in the Second Directorate: how can you not understand 3 - 3 If you were the Secretary, you must iknow that there is a raytion that there is a committee, that there is a bureau, that there is a primary Komsomol organization, and there is a lower Xonsomnol organization. , ssa It is the only one in the Second Chief Directorate. Fell, what was yours. Was it a raykom, & connittee, or a primary. rey Saree The primary Konsonol organization of the Sccond Chief Directorate, anc there was no other. Sao tenn + ee aD PETER tanita te Fey Very well, it was a primary organization. Further, you told me that a bureau of three people was elected. Tne bureau got together. Par Mave Seewidte dae But how did the bureau elect you as Secretary. ~ You told me that at a meeting they elected you a Secretary and two . oe tna tr woe Ret nee nn members of the bureau. That is not the way it is done. In no way. If you were the Secretary, then you must know. Yes, precisely. I have told you, keeping in mind, the smallsi the Komsonol organization. Now, keeping in nind....
Directorate, there were 15, 13, or IS members or.... B. No, no, not in any case. wag? Way so. A. Well, let us have @ number «= you tola ne that there were Bppro-: : I willproceed frou this -- that there vere 15 menbers. You told ue that taey elected you Sceretary at the ‘tomsoia0l meeting alons with two other menbers ef the bureau. That is not the sty it is donc. If you were the Secretary, you must inow and tell me th done and how it nanvenec. Sven if this Nongoenol organisation never even worled, as often happened, B. Do you want ne to give the formalities. They fornalined it, they fornalized it. : A representative of the Momsonol Committee was there: the bureau was formalized; it was formalized on a piece of paper that a bureau had elected ((B's surnane)) as Secretary of the Party organizatin. A. Then why did you say that you were elected at a meeting of the Komsomol orzaninzation to be the Secretary, but then i . it and said that two more menbers were elected to the bureau at the : - same meeting. io wad extant B. No, at the bureau ((meeting)) how else. A. Then, you were elected Secretary at a meeting of the bureaw. one ((Pause)) Yes;. at a formal bureau neeting. a + een one
ee oa BOEE a ccaeaneltee cages ere we A. A. ((In Enclisi)) Alright, let us zo on. Vhat nex. You still are not Secretary; waat noxt Tae Konsomol Committee must coufirm me as the Secretary of the gee? zation. Well, let us go to the Homsomol Comaittee. _ are EAN thar I do not renmenber, but after a day or tvo they confirned me as Secretary. 17 on of the Zomsomol Committed “Inga day: ae to Alright, you cone to a sess a too... well... for the whole ‘t!inistry of Internal Affairs. Yes. What went on there: Beers yen I do not renenber, I do not renenber. They confirned as a Secrotary. od They spoke with me, told me what to do. How did they speak with you. { do not renenmber, I do not remember. This was the one time in your life. Why “one tine™: I was a secretary of a Komsomol organization in the Far East, in Sovetskaya Gavan. We are speaking now of 1953, the KGB, and the Second Chief Directorate. You had been working only a few months in tie KGB; you were a new man;
A. A. The Party or Komsomol organization: 'B. The Komsonol organization; No. 2. hey showed their” xrust in you: they f- they elected you Secretary of the < mol organizatim of Chief Directorate. Nov, they summon you to a session of the “Xomsomol Committee of the VD. of. . Hy Nov, tell me the procedure. I do not remenber, I do not remember. I absolutely do not remenber. They talked with ne, What did they talk to you about. I do not remember, I do not renesaber, I do not remenber Do you renenber who was Secretary of the Nonsonol Connittee. I also do not renenber. I remember those two fellows because they later worked in the Second Chief Directorate -—- Yarat SOKOLOV and Anatoliy KALININ. Very well, you come to the session of the Committee of the MVD o|.-_- aS 2 it was called at that tine ~~ you come to the room where the session - 4 : conementeenies is, or into the office of the Secretary of the Committee, where it meets. Well, do you remember who was there. What did they ask you. X do not renenber which one of then was present or if someone else Both of those young fellows were there — KALININ and was present; this man stated how the Komsonol meeting of the Party Organization No. 2 went. They informed....
ee en ne ere ee er ,- How, practically, you.... I do not renenber waat they talied about. We will return to the Honth of March. You said that you went on duty in the KGB in the middle of March. fell how you were placed on the rolls of the Hensonol, in the cons organization of the HVD. I do not renenber. I reported to the Sceretary of the Nousomol orranization. Well, you appeared before the Secretary of the Xonsonol organication,, I was s2nt to the Xonsonol Comaittee. I said, so.... There they asked me for the so-called talon). I told how it was jn my case. What is this registration check. Well, when you are removed from the rolls in one Eonsonol. organization... ((Pause)) You left the Baltic. I was not removed from the rolls (2G). Then, you cannot talk about a registration check. No, there was none. I showed ny Komsomol identification card. eee dy wtarlie
108 + * GB. Well, they talked with me. I do not renmenber wnat they said. Probably they asted ac how and waen I was accepted in the xXomnsonol, yaat kind of Nonsonol assignnents I had had -=- such questions.... P ba Well, very well. ~ paid the ducs. soe They could have asxed me why T had not paid the dues for January and February == because I had been left hanging; I was waiting for then to aceept me for work. This was already what «- almost three Yes. .. that you had not paid the dues. I Lad not paid for two months. January, February, March. Well, I paid for Narch, when the tine came to pay. Then not for two months, but for three. I paid for three months. But what de the Regulations say about not paying dues? I think that after six months you automatically are out. 4 "3 q
Re aD ae abi en ES EO cane” ante we a Woeems ere 9 a UI BORE we & REDE Be 4s A. Waat explanation did you give the Committee for not nay ing -f6 months’ B, I explained that I had come on leave for January, but, watle on leave, the question of my new assignment or transfer fron the Navy to the 1D was being resolved; that is all. A. Do you know wacther there was a Political Department.of the Navy Intelligence Directorate at that tine? B. I do not know, I do not know. Y do not remember any department, because I never was thergge speak with anyone. A. Well, what was the Navy GRU called at that time. B. GRU; GRU of the Ministry of the Navy. A. GRU or RU. Bb. GRU ~ Chief. And the chief was Vice-Admiral VORONTSOV. A. You do not remember whether there was a political’d in this GRUS B. There was none, because I never was there, and I never spoke with anyone. I was in Personnel several times and left. ben X did not work one day there in the Ministry. When 1 started working, it was right in Sovetskaya Gavan. opted bn opera win neon nT ate @ == you were with the rare =-s A. Well, let us proceed further with the procedur Secretary of the Komsonol Committee of the MVD: you are talking with | bea ae alae
14-A0800 + tray gee ' vc cman Ge aweessanresnuttenp cam cembeweanaamuiaottntcem cei 4s oP NS een RCRD GP ones "SE ay) Game’ GareE werNG te do * eer Ww eRESED ay eb te EN te eke ORE AP gee eS ES ES Gree, A. _surname))"; where: with the Comaittee about being in the process of enrolling... Waen did this occur <= waen you already were on duty. Yes, waen I was already on duty. You, already had berun worling. Pa ¢ to you” i sammcmmeeate oe mmmienme ate Well, tell me the approximate procedure == what did they ta about. What questions did they ask you. I do not renember. I absolutely do not remember, I do net remenber. The Secretary of the Komsonol Connittee did not was enrolling. There were two girls there, I gave them the information. To whom did you pay the dues. f ntnncmgee macnn I paid the dues to the organisation of the Second Chief Directorate. cea er ceinngte nee ene cement After the girls spoke to you, they asked you where you had been enrolled. Well, precisely =- when I started working in thes d Chief Directorate and reported to the Secretary, they told me that, before they : officially would put me on the rolls they would sengame=toxthe eee Komsomol Committee; the Konsomol Committee was to direct me. The Party Secretary could not put ne on the rolls... Now that I had begun working; *T will put you on the rolis, ((B‘s On the Konsomol Committee rolis of the MVD, which directs me where, To the Konsonol organization where I work; yo ee I have a question == how did you get on the rolls of the Xomsomol
a epredity A apetgmien mentacnen ste mee ots rene ee ila SEB carmen eeeneen cana mnt B. A. A. B. ((In a low voice)) the Komsonol organ. I spoie with the Seerectary, and he told me.... With the Secretary or with tae yirl. With the Secretar; of the Nomsonuol organiration of the Second Chic Directorate. Where did he send you. Ne sent se to the omsonol Comiittec. With whon did you speak over there. There, they put me on the rolls. They took the number of ny “onsonol card; there were gitis in registration. They asxed me where I worked. I said in the Second Chief Directorate; I saic f had becun working in March. They did not give me any paper or any hing, but I was enrolled officially in the Xonsomol Committee of the NVD. After that, the Secretary of the Party... Komsonol organization of the Second Chief Directorate could place me on its rolls: I was officially enrolled by the Xonsonol Committee of the Second Chief Directorate. How do you explain that we have becn talking about this business for nalf an hour, and five tines, imstead of Komsomol organization or EKonsonol Coumittee, you have said Party Committee, the Committee of the Party, etc. Are you explaing to me what tool place in the Par Komsomol- eats, a ses GREE ak 0
cee he Ae Tetee Pomoc ern: a A. There are many people working there, and every one of then occupies a Konsonol you say Party. Because this was lonz aco. Well, I was in the Kousomol lon; ago and I have becone accustoned, instead of the Komsonol orcanizgation, to the Party. Now, waat was the practical procedure fer putting you officially on the rolls o7 the Nomsonol Comnittee of the li¥bD. You spoke with those gids, they took the nunber. of your. What nest. To ny thinking... I do not remember, I do not remember. fo my thinking... I am not able to sive the details. Tse cirls told ne to fo and speal: with so-and-so in such and such a room -=- cither SOXOLOY or EKALININ or someone else? fellove. Why . . Because these fellows supervise the Yomsonol organization No. 2. What was their position. They were members of the bureau, of the Komsomol Committee of the HNVD. Be more exact. What was their position in the Xousomel Committee. X do not remember what their position was. They were just in the Komsomol Committee; they did not work ((in operations)). certain position. I do ‘not remenber. g a é
fe eerste RA OETS ee mage a mee B. Right, but I do not renenber. What were the positions of SOXOLOV and this other fellow. I do not renenber. Do you think it is logical to say that a Secretary. of.a. Kemsonol ©: zation of the Sccond Chief Directorate must know approximately rho whe cok htere erbase works on the Konsomol Committee, wnat their positions are, who comes to the mectinrs, and who supervises then. - said that these two fellows -- (L\LININ and SOKOLOV -- supervised the orranization. What were their positions. 7 Hembers of the Bureau of the Komsonol Committee. Anyone can be a member of the bureau, even one who does not work ! there =|. for your information, But they have a certain functional position, which is written down on paper -. these are identified. I do not remember. scevrbe twain env eit He will return again to the following -- if you were the Secretary, you must know this, because it is very simple; not only do the Secretaries know it, but everyone who was in the Komsomol does. ene one epgened  asat deans -o No, I do not remember, and I do not even know. You can inagine that it is quite difficult for me to believe that you were a Secretary.
gE nate ae + % Be a . you must know this. Well, we will return to an old question -= how and when’. x] practically cet on the permanent rolls of tac Nonsonol Coanittee of the 'VD.~ In Mareh 1953. re nee id Well, explain how this was done. I said that we talked. You said you spoke with a girl about the rolls, with a nen Bureau, as you say, with one or the other viom you do not-: What nex ((Pause)) That is all. That is all. If you were in the Komsomol, if you were a Secretary, you must know. I said what I renenber. You understand == this is not an answer. I cannot do anything. I cannot junp higher than my head. I do not renember . You want me to think up sonetning for you, but I will not. I said, of course, practically speaking, if you. had been Secretary ,; Because it is not possible for a former Secretary not te know. Even if you were not a Secretary, every Koms: how is placed on the rolls and how he is removed. from the rolls. I simply want to find out where the bones lie hidden.
of this rubbish, and.... B. This is a thing that I can not answer. A. Wow is it possible to ‘believe you 100 percent after such a discussion. : It is not possible. —o B. What can I do if I do not renenber. Do you want me to (. lie.) to you. 3 A. I do not know what you are supposed to do, but I want to know precisely « were you a Secrctary, and were you in the Xonsonol. But since you cannot tell the sinplest things, I can’ nake only.one's conclusion -— that you never were a Secretary of the komsonol organi- zation of the Second Chief Directorate, and I will question whether you were in the Komsomol at all, if you cannot relate the s things. : B. I told you what I remember. A. The same thing happened with those with whom you spoke earlier, about 3 other questions, etc. S It always goes that way. B. Well, what can I do if I tave such a memory: I can do nothing. , A. It ig not a matter of memory. B. If I have such a memory.... ((%G; A and-B speak at the sane tine)) A. I imagine that you had a very good memory —— _ worker. , 2 nt. i a %
Nd 4nade Nan BA WAS ditt ae MAPMARE BatritnAN ote he Amine Sime: wy Set Naf ede ‘Komsonol organization, Aen ae even Well, .,there was. no one else to clect. There’ “were only typists, seeretaries and 2-3 (({operational)) worxers in all. Listen; it is not important. al Why did they select you and not IVANOV. Well, maybe IVANOV got caught drunk == they found out and they.... Anyway, there were 15 people. ((XG; A and B speak at the sane tine)) You were a new man.... Typists and stenographers -— they would not select then. : Perhaps it would be better to select a stenographer; because she has been there all the time. Well, probably they considered that they needed an operational man as Secretary. Well, if they considered that the Secretary had to be from among operational personnel, then I conclude that there not. only typists and stenographers, but algo operational employees. Well, there was RAXOVSKIY, Felikxs. 4 ef Who else was there. Then, there was... later... he came later -—— X think he came in 1953. ‘(EKOTS:) And there was someone else. And, _ by the way, I gave the Secretary business to this 5 KOTS.
penta en deere te tee aN Be Eke oH A. wuum yuu VuULNeu OWEr Cue” wu a and how. What interests re is fron sion yor too: over, I -do not renenber. Well, let us proceed further. Wow actually did you get on the rolls. I told you how it happened. I do not renenber anything else. Then I naxe the only I told you how I was placed on ther. You did not say anything. You just told ne that you saw a girl there, and then you spoke with a fellow wion you, the Secretary of tae Xomsonol organization did not know and you did not know waat his position was in the Xomsomol. Hlember of the bureau of the Party... EKomsonol Commnittec. He could have been a member of the bureau. This does not indicate waat his position was on the Roasomol Coanittee of the HVD. v I do not know whether he was responsible for agitation or propoganda or some other matter; I do not remember. Vell, we will return to another question. You said that you were a Secretary sonewhere else in a Komsonel organization. a . ai Where was that. t as i
. Bs a 1025 bis- - B. “{ntellicence in the Seventh Navy Fleet. How many Nousonol uenbers wore there ((Lon= pause)) Approximately how many. > ((Lonz pause; then, in a lov voice:)) About 22; something line taa Ss Seerctary of 2 Nomsomol oryani:ation, to whoa in your Nonasonol work were you subordinate. To one man; in Nomsonol wor:. I was subordinate to no onc. I was subordinate to the Deputy Chief of Intclligence for Afiairs, Col EUNCHEO; no one else. And to wiaom was Col BURCHENZO subordinate. DURCHENKO mj. to the Political Department of the Flect. There must have been someone wie guided the Nomsomol work of tne Fleet, No one ever came to me.... fie might not have cone ((to you)). BURCHENO, yes, BURCHENKO looked after the work oft ROM organization. — There must have been someone above you, if he never cane to see you. ‘You must surely know. If you -— as the Secretary -~- handled all of the work, you must have made reports to someone else besides BURCHENKO. All the reporting that we did we turned into B And he participated in all ‘the meetings. a a seem a 9a op oS © Oe vtbad el coed a,
+ sem emneet yam A, anyone other than BURCIZN0, only cme conclusion can be is that you do not know the sinplest thing about hov the Xoasonol organization wor'ss , to whom it is subordinate, how it is composed, and you do not now the Rezulations, ctc. The conclusion can -be made that you were not a Secretary, and the question is raised of whether you were in the Konsonol at..~gdae {it is as sinnle as that. Very well, leave it at that. 3 ‘yory well, leave it at that" #= that is one question. ee Ee I cannot... understand ne... excuse me... you are shoving me, shoving me on this nonsense... on nonsense. I do not remenber., But no, you know that I do not remember and you continue this.... I absolutely am not interested in raising questions ((of things)) which : 4 you do not renember., I do not remember. I answer you as it was with me. ce cae ie eran en bape cece te ae A person who was in the Komsomol for ll years and was a 7” Secretary must know the simplest things which every Komsonol member. cor ellinem meneame memo + Fen) - t It is not a matter of shoving; it is simply that I want to kn=ow if you were a Secretary or not. I have told you. Yes, I was. You answer: "Yes, I was." But this absolutely confirms nothing, because you r
(Ate. 86: oot ene een nace DECC cheats tee ie eB ett mae ee ((LUNCH)) B. ((Speaking in a low voice, ass for a cigarctte)) Please; you did not ask in the morning. fc yaeueees meg emmengre oon 4 a4 2 7 I have been thiniing and I have remembered sonething for confirnati@nae (utochneniye). . ee oe . a First, that there was a German Departnent precisely in 1953. And way “precisely”. Decause Nikolay YEGOROV, a case officer, was the Secretary.of the . Party organication fron wiom I too over. He worked in the German Departnent, the Third Departnuent. Therefore, that Nina was froa the same depar tuent. I am telling you exactly -= the Secretary. Well, again, you have said that you remember for sure that YEGOROY was Fi e = 4 * od 3 Secretary of the Party.... Well, the Komsonol organization -~ that is what I have in mind. XY made a slip. j : Then you took over.... Be ae From Nikolay YEGOROV, who was accepted at that vee evcnee rwermpere sia + ‘ ¢ > 3 member of the CPSU. Well, did he become & candidate right away. No, not at once; of course not. Once he was accepted as @ candidate member, he requested the K Committee to relieve him as Secretary -~ member of the Party”.... oe
A. ‘Well, if the bureau was elected, then vou were Secretary of the ‘of the primary Konsomol organization. “WOS TR hehehehe deh Me there” are, Gangiaate . members. Jnd Par y men TU COMED SOON “continue to be Secretarics of: onsqiol organizations. And sometines they are clected to be Secretaries. eo tg the way, did you hear one of the Soviet joes when you were there in regard to Anerica. i a i 4 "We have caught up with America in nil" i 4 . i 3 Tnere was sonc-thinge “scabrous” i 3 But we ave not caucht up in meat".... bee : "The bull's phallus (ihren) was bro‘zen."” Well, a good joke; I heard it not long age. Well, let us return to the question of how... or, to put it briefly, are you coing to continue to insist that you were Secretary of the o bureau of the KRomsonol organization of the Second Chief Directorate. Secretary of the Konsomol organization, bureau. Well, he is not called the Secretary of the bureau, but the Secretary Well, if he has a bureau, he is called the Secretary of the bureau. On the basis of the Regulations, it is written what is meant by "primary organization", by "bureau", etc.. | oy owe There is a bureau in any organization, both in the Committee and in. the primary organization; but he is called Seerg Committee or. Secretary ofa Party organization. Let us not get mixed up.
Be TANS Se ne a ao * tae ec aca cenit atts" “ey ae BS you understand. BIOETH Ae bi 6 oe BNI a Ge Week HIE “SB AGSSOMOL Or52nilZe as He is not called Secretary of the Sonsonol Bureau of the MVD?" is called Secretary of the priaary “ousonol organivation of the ser separ ae o's Second Chie? Directorate. 1, - Now, the Secretary of the Konsomol Comnittee of the NVD #=-< that is another thins. 2 ia ‘a rae at ae But, here and there, there is a bureau in any organization. mene sence meter cee ate Well, let us take 1952. Now did you get there and so forth. Today, you cave me the name, KORETSKIY. Yes, I have heard this. I do not know, I do not know. Well, if you are talking about Komsomol work, I assume that you must tell me that there was a Konsomol Secretary in the Second Chief Directorate. To wnom did the Komsomol members of KORETSKIY(('s office)) belong. KORETSKIY was not there when I was, There was the UODK, headed by BOYKOV. moBaenerie ome nemmapete came 8 @ They had Konsonol organizations in the departments: of the3#@Dx . _ kl Then there vas a Komsomol organization for the entire UODE and this Komsomol organization of the UODX was subordinate to the Party Conmittee of the HVD. Again, to the Party Committee... The Komsomol Committee of. the MVD...
cencagepnees on ee bes etre nee mee ee rere Saar B. Well, at the time I spoke with the girl of the > No, no, absolutely; and, li:ewise, the Party. orvanination: A. Well, now nany departnaents were there in the Second Chief Directorate . H in 1933. B. There were nine departments, and the tenth was the UODK. tetera een mate oe A, Alright; we will take nine departzaents. Besides the departments, there were other units. B. Well, the Secretariat, the enrolinent «croup.... A. Well, if you presune that each of the departments has one onsomol raed, member, then there are already nine of then. There was at least one nenher for each departnent: B, No, in the English Department there was not one. { can count them.... A. You do not have to for the time being. We will return to this. I want to determine more or less accurately the number .... { think your number, 15, is not right. = Sane mes stance mes te vunetiiae A. Well, we will return to our old question -- how did you really get on the rolls of the Xomsomol Committee of the MVD: As soon as you came to work in the Second Chief Directorate, you came to the Komsomol Committee of the MVD; you spoke with the girls; then — a you spoxe with someone else; when did you becone permanently enrolled. enroliment group of ‘the Komsonol Committee . Be
cmkad reMGgDe 2 A ANGLO RECN GAO ORI 04 ae ay net oe A. ‘E gtudied in the department .. Tacy put me on the rolls; tucy iesusd me a card. YI do not renenber. I do not renenber. Iam sinvly telling how it was. ((Asks = to deseribe how the sonsonol orcanization is organized, because -- as 2 Secretary == he should know this.)) af ye Secretary of the Nonsonol tt What are the responsibilities of organivation of the Second Chief Directorate fo manage the worl: of the “onsomol orzanization. Trig is coneral «= "to manase the work of the “onsomoel or:anination". reas) He collects dues, organizes Nonsonol meetings, conducts the work of the bureau of the Momsonol organization, What is included in this wort. Conduct lectures, discussions, verifies the mnembers' participation in their departments and in the units, controls political training. Well, here =. you are the Secretary of a Xonsonol. re you should have political instruction too. What did you personally study as a Komsonol member in 1953 and 1954, Fs as Secretary of the Komsonol orzanization of the Second hie Directorate You do not pose the question quite properly -— not as Secretary, ‘although elected, I studied like all-of the employees of the First Department. All of the Komsomol members studied in thef® aepar te The girls from the typing pool studied in. the Secretariat. baemenae ter mpesame t+ eget fesesnmes apes anne eta aimee 1 ye ee art cope emer ne + Feet % a
the teats ee erate ee A. ...¥You are saying “foreicn nolicy", bet you are explain “current events", “current events". fy Tnere is a big difference. ae : B. I have in mind, “forcign policy", “foreign policy”, oo ows hewn ernie oath eng tanem ee oF A. I want to know @= wio in the First Department cculd teach you == you who had just recently come from the Institute of International Relations; wae could tell you somcthing about forcircn policy which ; you yourself? did not understand. B. (CCG; B speaks in a very low, mumblinz voice)) A. I think I understand you correctly. There is no logic. It would be the same as if a person wae had graduated the Higher Party School under the CC CPSU would cone to the Second Chief Directorate and say, “I will take the short course in the history of | the CPSU." B, It is not the history of the CPSU; this is foreign policy. The history of the CPSU is studied.... A. What can you learn in this group, and what can-you- the time away: B. For. example, the Cerman question; there were several other questions. A. A man who was working in the American Department and was studying . foreign policy would study the German question. ..B. nis was the foreign policy course; not everythis the United States. The. whole foreign policy of the Soviet state. _ AN aati pica NRT es oad ho ect PR net ORR Li De can sap tae ok meme aoe 2 4 ; a
* ae" “comet “ot tate fog * >” Women any ae ee "weil ‘ ithed wise y mone In 1353 and 1354, I was studyins foreign policy. ‘A. Aneé@ waat were the other people of the First Departrcent stucying. 'B, We had two or three sroups. The Party Orcanication of the Department decided waist sul be studied. a ; They would decide how sany groups were to be established -—— one fProtip weber NOEL Ce would study the foreicn policy of the Soviet Governsent; the second fn ers group might study one of the wors of LENIN; for exanple, Materialisn - ' and Inperio.Criticisn. Ivery year they decided what was to be stucied and ‘ox: organized. A. You said that you had a foreign policy course. B. Yes. ; A. You yourself studied. i i B. Yes. I. “a A. Yould it not be proper to assume that you would stucy somethin els You had just completed the Institute of InternatTs S1 Relat ions; what j AA new thing could you learn in a foreign policy group. oe ce ines ee a cea nb ne Who will teach you. You had just recently completed the Institute of International Relations. B. No... you understand... foreign policy -— you are studying current problens which arise, current problens; you study what is going .on in @ country nov.
ene sme se oon cles « ASP EDD,  oney nmcnamann B. Tt ees, ret . we 4 BE . “ oe ee FB Agee! -the twenty-first. . already have an alphabetical-list of all Komsouol .-membe eS a Sen TATE y he Mang te. te antiga wl Ne Aa Ae te Rect Sons Re ld Br Ay a" Nac tt aac te tg tet ad aa ae pa, cate ine elle Ep Sele dete = > There were about 20 persons =~ 15, 16 eaployces of the. Depar Who was in cunrce of the proup. One year it was ALESHIN, chief of a section, ALESHIN. eee cee ee rarenienin tat net tee ites What were his particular qualifications to teach a foreicn policy eroup. wetter ee Well, he was an educated ran, : 4 sae We was an educated man; what -« a graduate of the Wisher Scho the GB. In the past, he was a Komsonol worker. He came from Party work. fle came in 1952. ee eects = 4 Well, this is one of the responsibilities ~- to stucy foreign policy and to control vhat the Xomsomol menbers study. Further, you said that you colected ducs -- wnat procedure was there. for the paynent of dues. They received their pay in LiVD and EGB on the 20th oF: with the exception -- if the 20th fell on Sunday, they would pay on Two or three days later, I would collect the dues. fell me jn detail what you did; how is it actually carried out. A Konsomol member comes in; he presents his Komsomol card, and you A girl usually types this list. This list gives the name and the number of the Komsonol card; oa
teat ain anti atl eae SSS iat gr POW MAA a eats meta BeAr err eS be i Ante a SEVER AREA LU Nl ig NEN Sel 9 52 EERE EB RRA for example, "9".... - Tae next coluan indicates tne nonth for: waich the cues are -* for exanple, in this case, it would be "10". 2 ce eames Then you as: the Xomsonol menber wnat his basic pay is -~ for exanple, say, "250 rubles"; you put the total of. two percent... two percent.... Well, you sec, at that tinc, it was not 250, but 2,299 or 2,000.... Saeed You receive the money, and you mark down the anount that he paid; for example, 40 rubles, if his basic pay tere 2,000... 40 rubles... sc. i You mart: in his Komsonol card the amoung of his salary and there is : a colunn in waich you mart: dorm the ducs -~ "40 rubles”. ; And then there is a column for the signature and a stanp.” But, on the list, you mark dowm how much money you received from hin and asi the Nomsomol uember for his signature, and he sicnos 5 A. Further: B. That is all. 4 You are finished with him, and he leaves. Two percent. A. Let us assume he receives 1,000 rubles in old currency B. ((Speaks with uncertainty)) 20 rubles, 20 rubles” ” “ - yo A, ((in English)) Are you sure about that™ B. Two percent. ee ‘A. Yam asking if-you dre sure of that. B. Twenty rubles, absolutely . t ' +g . i A. You are sure.
Suna nts Meme emt. at _That is why I asxed -=- if someone ’ You understand; we had no one who received less than 1,000 rubles. Wis S otae I, of course, do not want to have ay argunents. The Rerulations state a certain seale — who pays how much; he receives, and hew nuch he pasy . And that scale shows that some people pay two percent, but not all of vr e thea. Beds. ted bse the dr baits All of our members paid tvo percent. That cannot be. to one has the ritht to violate the Nonsonol Rerulations == to take * more from a nan than he is supposed to. Tyere was no one who received 309 rubles, no onc. much Goes he pay. {Two percent -- 20 rubles. I ask again «- are you sure. Two percent. This is not true. Because the Reculations explicitly state how much a man pays according to what he earns. i Everyone is not covered the same way. This answer does not satisfy me. Ye are talking about the Regulations, ‘aich clearly state how much a man pays, according to how much he is paid, aoe ghee ahe et te ARS Ot See ‘ staipa ty ccigee Ss a -~ artim tS on ‘ oat Se tet ays SA gE ARE NT NaN ON CS RS Mine aT ce ada -
14-00000 Tais is not true; how much did yo: pay B. Two percent, also, . . i A, That, too, is not true. Again, there is a bist question here. You do not now the simplest thins: about the Secretary of a Lonsonol _organination. You do not oven iknow how much ducs the Monsonol menbers pay. BE, When I was a student, I naid 20 toners. 5 A. Iveryone nows that students pay 79 tronexs. Decause you mention 2 “hopes, Lt shows that tae scale much students pay and how much the others ((do))" 3 It could not be that you yourselZ paid two nercent;. you paid sonething other than two percent. If you insist on telling ne that vou paid two percent, my only con-= clusion is that you were not a Secretary of a Komsonol organization. That is the only conclusion. sens iy at + B. I do not know; as I remenber.... A. I do not want to insist and argue further on this= is a fact, clear as black on white. B. Right! Right! But we did not have any low-paid personnel, ((receiving)) 200 or 300 rubles. ((XG: & and B speak at the same tine)) * fe e
TANIOOOD, cuts Staten Oe cmenerene He A. A. &. ‘“Chier pireetorace, - Byeryone was receiving more than 1,090. It is ruled; you put down the surname and inif “ge you arg taining “avouv tae o1g “‘cirrenty .~ ~~ nen pend Yes, right. And no one of then was payins tvo percent, including you... ee Two vercent, tvo percent. ny Tao Party orcanination -< three percent, regardless of «Ao he was “se Chief of Departmen:, case officer -— three percent, Again you are srong. Also in the Farty organination, not everyone pays three pe Of course, if a Party member receives up to 100 rubles, ou will pay less, but no one in the NG5h receives less than 100.23 Thais is absolutely not true, and it is absolutely not right then you say that you paid two percent. t It is not trve, it is not truc. ((ZG; A and B spea’t: at the sanc time)) fy eee nemdiy at 6 a a azo Well, very well, you collected the dues, the ducs. Cho is entered on the list for the dues. What is that list called? 1 we ome serene ymname se I do not remember, but all the Komsomol members were “UH aty It has a nane. I do not renenber, I do not remember. List. (vedonost') -- that is what I renember . ahh A list for what — for pay.
Waat is its nance. B. I do not renember, I do not renember. 1 A. Very well, I will assume, I will believe, that this was in 1353 when,» cae you collected ducs, and you have forgotten. poe RE “ Put since 1955, when you entered the Party, until 1954, you paid Party dues. td - Right. A, Every month.... B. Three percent every month. A. You see, and every month you came to the Secretary of the Party organization and every time you saw this list. cave tetemee ane onesie ome B. Right. | A. Fron this experience, you should know what this list is called. | How is it called? B. The devil knows -~ a list; that is all. Pe ae — ; A. It is the same in both Komsomol and Party; the only:.difiere! i one says “VLKSiI' and the other "KPSS . B. Absolutely the same list. A. Well, what is the name. | | | B, I do not know; list, list. | { Riga teseay a eee
14-OOB00 ae. cave. te fares Bete he ot Deg neg litte ee she tthe to See Be he Rete hah oO eet A Well, List; that is all. I do not remenber anything more. That is not all; that is not all. Boe pwn cmeten at carebal Dail canbe Aedes donde dine? and nothing else". Anketa, and then the questions. Rubbish. Well, lilse it or not, that is rubbish; because there is ‘something 27 nore written on the sheet, and there is a nane for it. | Not Anketa; that is all. What kind of anketa. ; What? | : What about: There is nothing else written on it. | It is not stanped secret, or top secret. i } We will return to the matter of how it is stamped and the heading. oo What interests me right now is why the Secretary of 2% oi cal organization does not know what this list is called. I do not remember; list. Well, alright; let us go further. How do you record the Komsomol members in this list’ eard number is recorded. Then, the last month is recorded... well, the first column oom the
ay nascoredests sear mo retobconen Alton ; . A. “Wane; “toe second’ coLumnl a="card”nunbcr;, third COLumn o=<"the” 14g month of paynent of ducs; fourth cojuan — the nonth for whic dues are beins paid; (XG) and the sixth colunn -= the: sisnatires”or those who have paid. t in hand. —— ; That do you do then- — I turn the moncy in to the ncarest collection.cashicr. The cashier's office was on Nusnetshiy Most’. Well, what else. A Set I receive a receipt from the cashier for having turned in a certain amount of money. What else. caer eateries Then I turn the receipt and the list in toe the Xomsonol Comnittee. What then’ That is all for the dues. Where was this collection cashier office located. On Kuznetskiy Most’. Kuznetsk iy Host! cresses Zhdarov Street. It was on the corner of Zhdanov Street and Kuznetskiy Host’. You enter from the corner. This was a savings bank ora branch of a rayon bank.