AGENCY : RECORD NUMBER : RECORD SERIES : AGENCY FILE NUMBER : ORIGINATOR : FROM: TO: | TITLE: DATE: PAGES: COMMENTS : vol Docld: 3277667586 Page 1 SUBJECTS : DOCUMENT TYPE : CLASSIFICATION : RESTRICTIONS : CURRENT STATUS : DATE OF LAST REVIEW : OPENING CRITERIA : JFK Assassination System Date: 10/7/201 Identification Form Agency Information HSCA 180-10117-10011 NUMBERED FILES 014637 Document Information HSCA “HEARING BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS; HOUSE OF REP.. 03/17/1977 120 HSCA; ADMINISTRATION; STAFF HSCA; METHODOLOGY SPRAGUE, RICHARD A. LEADS AND INFORMATION HSCA; WITNESSES TRANSCRIPT Unclassified Open in Full Redact 08/16/1993 MLK material, pp. 90-100, 112-119, withdrawn. Box 266.
Docld:32266786 Page 2. | *Weghington, D.C. "Mare 17, 1977. “ Miderenn: Rogartg Sempy, te +a _- . PR y aS EN SPE PN a ae, Cosy . o A
3 co Bultma 5 6 12 3 14 16 217. _ 18 19 20 21 23 26 45 sunctirtin ‘stssron SHONSDAY, March -17, 19°77 U. B. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES , | ‘SELECT “COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS Washington,’ D.C. - the Committee: met, pursuant to notice” ‘at 10° a. i. ‘ta Room 2220 Rayburn House: office Building, ‘the Honorable ‘Louis Stokes (Chairman of ‘the Committee) , presiding. Present. Represéntatives Stokes (Presiding) Faiintroy, | Burke , Dodd, Ford, Fithian; Edgar, Devine,’ Anderson, | ‘Preyér, and. Thone. | ceva te Also present. Righard A. Sprague, Chief Counsel ana Staff Director, ‘Bob ‘Tannenbaum, Bob ‘Lehner; Steve. Fallis; Al. Lewis, ‘Pat Orr, James Wolf) Rebecéa’ Martin, ‘Tom Howorth, Burt Chadak, Bob Morrison, Frank Kelly; Polly Brown, Hank Spring The Chairman. ~The meeting will come ‘to ‘orders: We are.still in: exedutive session. Supposediy, only Staff see ee ae seen | | - Léhrier. “mat ds ‘trie’ moe iki: nl nf ASA en might take up this morhing.: We may “have to’ ‘eajust, the schedule a, ity: because: Mr’. ‘Fithian. a8 inva’ markup siftation and has some mattérs'that. he’ waits’ to bring before” the : Docld: 322766736 Page 3
10 a 1 13 14 AS 16 18 19 2 . 92 23 24 2 Committee. I told him that we would try to ‘adjust to his > schedule, whenever he can get over. One of the things that we have to do is to prepare our report. for March 31 for the House. In that” conjunction, we have never done anything really with respect to” the ordering of the hearings printed, of at least the “open sessions that we have had. . I guess fromthe beginnihg there has never been any order to the Court Reporters to prepare anything $0 we are really behind in all of that. Steven, | is that your area? . Mr. raluis. I will take care of ‘it, if you want. The Chairman. | I think definitely: we have © to have our hearings printed. ‘Then it is up to the Committee also to decide if any of the matters relatéd to Executive Session héarings are to be’ released. publicly also. Mr. Devine. Mr. Chairman, how far back are you refer - ring--just since you bécatia Chairman or prior to that time? | | The ‘chalzman, “I am ‘really open for-a discussion "on that, Mr. Devine. I dondt ‘iow how much of what it is, IT try to think back of what we aid under our. previous Chairman, whether thére was ) anything much to be-- Mr. Devine. f: ‘think’ it was. ‘preliminary discussion rela- “tive to adoption of rules which wad. finalized since you have been chairman. Docld: 327667536 Page 4
Nn 12 C 14 18 16 M7 fm t:) 19 20 ai 23 Docld: 32266736 The Chairman. Right. Mr. Devine. So, I am not sure that any useful purpose would be served in having those printed up because the final rules of what we adopt are used for legislation of the legislative report, Do you know, John? Mr. Anderson. NO, I do ot think it would be useful. It would be just additional expenses to go ahead and transcribe and print hearings that were inconsequential as to what they produce. So, I think I would be agreeable to implementation of what you say, since you started your tenure as Chairman. That would be adequate. The Chairman. All right. Then are there .any matters you can think of related to sessions that we have had in Executive Session that we ought to release. I suppose that. matters in relation to Mr. Sprague's explanations yesterday perhaps ought to be printed up, or we can have some dis- cussio: as to whether this should be. Mr. Edgar. Mr. Chairman, is it proper and possible to have two records made, one from the public sessions since you have been Chaizman, and ‘one from the Executive sessions that would be held until we have a careful review of thos? | | | The Chairman;: You mean to have it printed up, Executiv Session printed up, for our purposes. ‘Mr. Edgar. Yes. ge 5
@o 2 @ ; 10 WW 12 r) 3 C 14 -15 16 7 “18 19 . :20 21 22 23 24 f - 6 at some time in the future on the charges having been made by our previous Chairman but I am afraid if those are printed up and made available to the public, that that is. what will hit the headlines,again it reopens the wounds and I do not think that we are prepared to meet that at this particular time. | I think after we are reconstituted, assuming that hap- pens, why them that is adequate time for the answers to be given to the charges made actually unless you feel some useful purpose would be served in trying to do it to the confrontation we are going to have with the House ‘one of these days under the Rules Committee. The Chairman. Well, actually, I agree with you. I was concerned because Mr. McKinney had warned us to have this done in Executive Session and a couple of other members had too, so thhatatheyc: could then be sent to the other members or some of the other members and someone even mentioned putting it into the Congressional Record. I think, putting it in the Congressional record even has the gama, very same situation about it in terms of the news media grabbing that and getting back off where we now have them. Mr. Edgar. . Mr. Chairman. The Chairman . Mr. Edgar. Mr. Edgar. If they are trasneribed and typed out which DoclId: 322766736 Page 6
12 ® £13 C | 14 -15 16 18 19 _ 20 a @ : 22 hed 24 I assume they will be in another 24 hours or so, couldn't they be circulated to all the members of our Committee and then at some point in the future some sections of them may be’ necessary to share with others in case there is a question around reconstitution time, but as for now, we would just keep them within the confines of this Committee. I think they ought to be circulated to those members who were not present,who have some questions ,who may want to take a look at the data that was provided yesterday by Mr. Sprague. ' Mr. Sprague. My thought is that a copy of them should be available to be with each member of this Committee for whatever purpose that member may then want to use it because it was really so that if questions exist in your minds or if people are asking you questions,:at' least you have the information as I state it to be to respond and I am happy to have, for each of you, to have a copy of °. that for your own purposes. . . The Chairman. Does that satisfy everyone then. "Mr. Devine. That is fine with me. The Chairman. Then, Mr. Sprague, in regard to the hearings so that we have a clear understanding on that, ordinarily when a committee goes to the floor with any type of report accompanying, that report of course there are " the printed hearings that have been conducted by that Committee, that is what I had in mind in terms of at DoclId: 322766736 Phge 9
7 . . . . 8 a “at least my. “assumption of ‘the Chair, that we would have all “that printed up as’ hearings: of ‘the Committee, with the _ | exclusion of course ‘of anything that is. in Executive Session unless | we thought there was sonething in ‘the Executive. Session that ‘should be released at that time. a Apparently there is nothing that anyone can think of. Mr. Devine.. I have not thought ‘much: ‘about what we have done in executive Session, is there anything that anyone| feels should be brought out? i: . | | Mr. Edgar. Well, T ‘think that, whatever is sent ‘to the oe House Floor has to be on the issues of the two assassination: problems and I think yesterday’ s record of ‘the pleading of the 5th is. an important thing to have available and at an. appropriate time when we: ‘Bend over a : report - to have the public record of that hdaring make some sense. . I do not know what the choreograghy-of that is when that takes place. | There may be two or " three_other public hearings that we may ‘have ‘next, week. I do ‘not know what the plans are, that — may be included in that. Of course, with pleading the 5th - you do not e have many pages of testimony but whatever | we can share with the House ‘publicly to justify our existence, I think: is important to get beyond the March ‘30 ‘deadline. The Chairman. ‘Yes, I think: that is very important. | _ All right, we will then see--because none of the members have even had a chance to correct any of the transcribed DoclId: 322766736 Phage 10
° @ Cy @ 10 a 12 13 ‘14 -15 16 27 19 20 a 22 23 24 2s testimony * before it does go to the printer, so that has to be done Also. So, if you will proceed to have that done,. I would appreciate it. } Mr. Sprague. Yes,sir, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Edgar. Mr. Chairman, do we need any action on Mr. Preyer's proposed budget? | The Chairman. Yes. a I talked to him regarding that this morning. He had a markup in another Committee, also, said he would be . here as soon as he could get here but I had hoped that we would be able. to go. ahead and take final action on that. | Mr. Ford. Do we’ have any preliminary work at this point on the budget? . . The Chairman. ‘No, Mr. Ford, I think it is a matter of his report in Executive Session prior to any release of | it ina public session. Mr. Edgar. Here is'a copy (handing). Mr. Ford. I did not have a copy. The Chairman. It is still in Executive Session and not to be released publicly because we have not yet sat with Mr. Thompson. | I talked to Mr. Preyer this morning about sitting with him on it-as we dia with Mr. Dent in getting his concurrence init, and the procedure that we adopted was that we will not release any information to the public Docld: 322766736 Pal e 11
10 JW 12 14 16 a . 18 19 FE 21 @ @ _ 24 © as : ‘lo until such time as we have had the consent of both chairmen from the House Administration. Mnvate we received from Mr. Kenneth Bryton, Jr. which I think I want to lay before “ain two letters that should be brought to the attention of the Committee along with the reply that has been prepared by Mr. Sprague. May we have the Clerk read this correspondence. Ms. Martin. "The Honorable Louis Stokes, Chairman, - House Select Committee on Assassinations, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. Letter dated March 8. “Dear Mr. Chairman. "I submit herewith my resignation from the Staff of the House Select Committee on Assassinations effect this date or at such time hereafteras the members of the Select Committee shall determine as fair and equitable. I resign as a matter of province and not out of the belief that the investigation should not be continued by some appropriate body. The attention of the Select Committee is directed to the fact that on or about January il, 1977, while acting in his ‘capacity as Chief Counsel and Staff Director, Richard A. Sprague represented to the Staff during the course of the Staff meeting that, if certain Staff members were to accept a 35 percent reduction in pay, that _ he, Sprague, would ‘see’ that such staff members were reimbursed the full amount of the decrease in pay. j DocId: 32266786 Page 12
19 2 22 23 Ce Ce 25 ll "In justifiable reliance upon the representations of your agent, I tend to render professional services to the Houae Select Committee which accepted such services. I. understand that -there.. is an admission of Mr. Sprague's representation in the record of the Committee proceedings for Monday, March 6, 1977. . "I bring this matter to your attenion. so the Committee, while a duly constituted legal body, may take approprite saction to restore the pay reductions for January and February of 1977. "of course if the Matter can be resolved equitably then litigation may: be avoided. Also enclosed herewith are copies of telephone bills which I incurred. while per- forming official duties as acting Staff Director and Chief Counsel under the former Staff Henry P. Gonzales. I trust this voucher will be isstied-promptly':s6 I‘will be reimbursed for my actual. expenses. I shall look forward to | hearing from you as to the matter. of the restoration of the January and February, 1977 reduction in my pay so that I may take appropriate action. I appreciate having had an opportunity to serve on the Staff of the Select Committee. - With kind: regards, I am Kenneth E. Bruton, Jr." "Enclosed telephone bills for official- calls." | Mr. Ford. “What are they--what is the amount? Mr. Howorth. About. $40.00. DoclId: 322766736 Page 13
. 10 LV 12 :13 14 “15 6 il7. 18 19 20 a 24 s 2s {7 Docld: 32266736 Puge 14 Ml Nhe second letter dated March 10. Committee on | Assassinations, U. Ss. House of Representatives, Washington, D. c. mailed to my former law firm in Gainesville, Florida, on Monday, March 7 1977 and which. was received on Wednesday, ‘conzales' ‘resignation, I mailed you my formal resignation also enctosed. reports to former Chahrman Gonzales, I moved all of my pos- - going to. tender my | formal resignation until such time as the House’ accepted the resignation of Mr. Gonzales, for to -. 99 do so would leave Mr. Gonzales without counsel. . Since I had 23 12 "The Honorable Louis Stokes, Chaizman, House Select "Dear Mr. ‘Chairman. “Enclosed herewith is a copy of a letter which was March 9, 1977, at 2 o'clock p.m. "On Tuesday, March 8, 1977~ innediately following the. acceptance by the House of Representatives of ‘Chairman from the Staff of the Select Committee, a copy of which is. "On Sunday, March 6, 1977, having completed my final sessions from my partment’ and flew to Florida. MA number of people in . Washington” khew I was ; leaving Washington and resigning from the Committee. I was’ not decided to resign immediately upon the acceptance by the. House of the regisnation of Mr. Gonzales, I saw no reason to stay in Washington where the Committee was to hold a meeting as my presence at that point would simply
® - 10 JW oo 18 19 n ai ad 23 24 GC) 3s - 13 provoke unnecessary confrontation. "On Wednesday, March 9, 1977, at 12:15 p.m. I learned from Congressman Gonzales' office that the Select Committee held a special meeting on Tuesday, March 8, 1977;° for the sole purpose of firing me, notwithstanding the fact that my resignation was already in’the mail to you and ‘that the letter which I received on March 9 directed me to report .to the Committee offices that same day. It is implicit in Mr. Lewis' -letter that since I was not in the Staff offices since February 9, 1977, that I was not performing duties for the Select Committee. - "Enclosed for your informationis a copy of a telegram which I received from former Chairman Gonzales on February ll} 1977. As you are no doubt aware, both at the request of former Chairman Gonzales as well as Congressman Richardson Preyer, Congressman Walter Fauntroy and congressman Christo- fer Doda, I did not go to the Committee Staff Offices so as to not cause unecessary confrontations. However, I enclose herewith copies of correspondence between myself and Richard Sprague and Majority Leader Wright relating to ‘my continuing efforts ta ‘resolve ‘some of the problems con- fronting the Select Committee. - "I bring. this chronology to your attention as well as the copies of documents which ‘I Have enclosed because I can only construe the calling of a special meeting to "fire" Docld: 322766736 Page 15
@ ‘ 10 WV 12 ~ 14 “15 16 W 18 19 . 20 21 22 23 26 C@ Ce 2s 14 me as a vindictive act on the part of Mr. Sprague who could have determined from a number of sources that I had already returned to Florida and intended to submit a formal written resignation as I, in fact, did. "Accordingly, I will appreciate it if you will advise me as to the following: (a) whether a meeting of ‘the Select Committee was held on Tuesday March 8 1977 and if so, was that meeting held in compliance with the rules of the House and the rules of the Select Committee and what official action was taken? "(b) The position of the Committee as to whether my resignation is accepted or whethér Iswas "fired" and the effective date of the deceptance. of my resignation or my "firing". I shall look forward to hearing from you. You may feel free to call me at my home in Florida 940-372-8021 should you wish to discuss this matter personally. “with kindest regards, I am sincernly | - "Kenneth E. Bruton, gr." The Chairman. 0O.K. | Is there any discussion regarding those letters or any comments that the members have? <M. Ford. Was he fired, Mr. Chairman, or his resignation accepted? - The Chairman. aT a meeting. that was called as I recall the same day that I was appointed Chairman, we met in my DoclId: 322766736 Page 16
e 6 -10 J 20 4 23 26 25 Docld: 32266736 154 office. It was brought to my attention at that time o@ to the Committee's attention at that time by Mr. Sprague that both Mr. Bruton and a lady whose name I do wt now recall had not worked since the llth day of February, I believe, and for that reason we were asked to terminate their Services And the Committee at that time took a course of action and we sent our correspondence out.that day notifying both persons as I recall it that their services were terminated. Mr. Ford. I mean, did we accept the letter of resig- nation? | | ‘The Chairman. That hadnot at that time come in. I think there is a date on that letter. Mr. Ford. I was at that meeting that day, Mr. Chairman I do not recall that, probably--maybe I left+- out of the office but I do not recall our taking up any business on whether we should relieve him, fire him or accept his resignation. ' Mr. Dodd. oh, yea we took that. The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Sprague brought it to our attention and ‘we. took action formally. Mr. Devine. Mr. Chairman , I think one glaring error in the allegations is the ‘fact that a meeting was called for the sole and specific ‘purpose. ‘of firing him. That was not the purpose of the meeting being called, it was our first organizational meeting which, after your having ge 17
- 9 : : 20 : 2 23 4 Docld: 32266736 ss oe 16 been named chairman, we took up a number of. things and that - was ; actually incidental if Tr recall. ‘The Chairman. One of the: items on, the agenda, yes. Mr. Anderson. What about his charge that he was promise - a 35 ‘percent ‘pay cut; that it would be restored? . Me. ‘Sprague. Mr. Chairman, we prepared for the /Chaizman, Mr. Stokes' response to the first letter. This is the fitst I have heard \ of the second letter. ‘ _ With. regard to that statement, as I believe I said at the session that we had previously, there was not a promise that a pay cut ‘in fact would ‘be restored. What I said to “the Staff, at the initial Staff meeting and what t also said to this committee vhen Ir was asked Lo the question about it by Mrs. Burke, was that. what Lt advised | ' the Staff was that I would | use my best efforts to see that ‘those that were on the Staff when we would get our new budget would then: have the amount of money that had been taken out of their pay, “put. back in ‘for an interim period until they were ‘madd whole again. There was never an assurance that they would get. that, and ‘secondly part of what was the. “condition was that they still be on the STaff when we were recreated and had, our new budget. : And. that is stated in the proposed response by the
& 7 ~ i 19 20 2 22 (23 26 25 17 Chairman. Mr. Devine. Is that your proposed response? The Chairman. Now, we have a proposed response to the first letter. | The second letter has just come in a few days ago into my office. Mrs Sprague has not seen that yet. the Clerk can read this proposed reply to the first letter. Ms. Martin. Letter dated March 16 1977. | "Mr. Kenneth E. Bruton, Jr., "3301 Northwest 27th Terrace, . "Gainesville, Florida, 32605." "Dear Mr. Bruton. "I am in receipt of your letter of March 8, 1977, submitting your resignation from the Staff of the Select Committee on Assassinations and your request for reimburse- ment for certain phone calls and restoration of the pay reductions you agree to for January and February of 1977. "Your ‘resignation' of course, was obviated by the action of the Select Committee on March 8,1977 terminating t your employment with the Committee's staff. The Committee will reimburse you for any phone calls made in pursuit of .Committee business. Before any vouchers are processed, it will be necessary for you to submit to me the names of _ persons you called anda brief statement of the subject matter of each call for which you desire reimbursement. "In our’ view, however, you have no valid claim for DoclId: 322766736 Page 19
A7 18 19 : - 20 2 26 25 @ ; C a © ® CG) 18 réstoration of your voluntary pay reduction for January and February 0f11977. | "Sincerely, Louis Stokes, Chairman. " The Chairman. “Approximately how much money are we talking about in terms of this claim? Mr. Howarth. About $2300. - The Chairman. About $2300. Mr. Howorth. Through March 8. The Chairman. Are there any questions or comments? Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, may I also bring to your attention that other people have left our staff voluntarily and as to them as well, they have been advised that anyhody leaving the Staff prior to recreation and the: getting of a new budget, if we get that, does net get any of that pay differential back. | | So the people leaving know that that same rule applies to them as well. | . So, I want the Committee to be aware that there is nothing being done aimed at Mr. Bruton that is any different than anybody else. | The Chairman. Mr. Dodd. Mr. poda. itr. Chairman, just in response, I apologize for arriving late. .The March 10 letter addressed to you from Mr. Bruton in which he lays out the chronology of events and so forth following his activities, I would like DoclId: 322766736 Page 20
| er] 10 J 72 :13 14 -15 16 7 1% 19 ai 22 23 Docld: 322766736 19 the record to reflect that when he points out at the bottom of the first page of his letter”as you are aware and, Con-~ gressmen Preyer and Fauntroy and myself, the reason he. didn't go to the Committee office was not to avoid unnec- essary confrontations, that was a request that was made by myself and Congressman Preyer and Fauntroy, over the weekend _which Mr. Sprague was notified that ‘his services were.no longer needed by Mr. Gonzales, it was our opinion that particular time given the heat of the situation, it was _ probably advisable to stay away from the office for a period of time in order to prevent the exacerbation that could occur.with his presence there. It was not inferred that he should stay away forever. I think it.was made clear two or three times within the first day or two of the . following week. Mr. Ford. . What date are we talking about? Mr. Dodd. The dates of that, what was that, Thursday, the date of that Thursday that we received that. : our, Sprague.. I think it was about on the 10th. Mr. Dodd. 10th or llth of February. | Mr. Howorth. 10th of February. “Mr. Doda. That was on a Thursday and then the Con- gressional, recess: over’ that weekend the following Monday Mr. Bruton came back to Washington but remained in his apartment rather than go down to the offices but it was age 21
10 W 12 @ 13 C 4g 18 16 17 18 19 20 a 22 23 24 25 _ 20 never our intention at least certainly not mine that he °~ should remain away from::tthe offices indefinitely, it was just during that heated period It just wanted the record to reflect that. That allegation. The Chairman. Right. I think that is good to have in the record. | | Mr. Ford. Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Mr. Ford. Mr. Ford. I am wondering whether or not~-*he was under the impression that he was working for the Chairman Gonzales at that time--whether or not he had that impression, ~e ‘that he was to work out of his house or work out of Mr. Gonzates' office or what=haveeyou, whether or not we should ‘reconsider our action maybe and accept his resigna- tion. I am not concerned about the 30 or 35 percent reduc- tion he received or whether he should be compensated for that any more than we compensate 6thers who resigned voluntarily,. that we. have. to. come. back and do the same thing. but if we are talking. about March 8, the letter of March 8 and we: are: thinking: in-terms’ of this man is gone now from the Staff; why couldn‘t we just accept his resignation becausé we all know that we had some problems with. the ,you know, the: Staff in this Committee, with the Chairman of this ‘conmittes at least and certain staff people. Docld: 32266736 ole 22
@ WV 13 -15 V7 20 2 23 ‘2s 21 I just do not think that we ought to penalize a person and discharge him from the Staff when at the same time hehas shown a good-faith indication of his intent there to resign, why don't we just accept it and call him and pay him the $40 forhis phone bills if he can justify them and get it over with? | The Chairman. Any comments? Mr. Sprague. .Mr. Chaizman, it does not make any difference to me, as long as he is not here. 10 Mr. Ford. Well, that is a known fact now, though. ‘The Chairman. Well, we did send a letter to him in 12 | which we said "you are terminated as of thi date." I suppose in order to give consideration to what you are-- 14 Mr. Ford. You see, we can address this letter, Mr. Chairman, we could address it to him March 8, we met on 16 March 8, is ‘that correct, in your office? | The Chairman. I think it was the Sth, wasn't it? Mr. Sprague.’'-I do not - know. 19 _ Mr.Ford. And can‘we just address it to his letter 2 ‘Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Mr. Sprague. 24 Mr. Sprague. May I suggest that maybe a response to im might be that after reviewing that claim that Docld: 32266786 Page 23
- 22 1 he is making, it is the opinion of the Committee that he @ 2 does not have a valid claim in terms of the salary, 3 but in the interest of trying to be accommodating, that if @ ) 4 he will, let us say, sign a release as to all such claims, the 5 Committee might perhaps be willing to reconsider the action 6 of the dismissal and accept the resignation as of ‘that date, 7 couched in language that would be appropriate. 8 Mr. Devine. It would have to be carefully worded because 9 we do not want to hold it up like a bribe. 10 Mr Sprague. That is correct. WV Mr. Devine. We want the record to reflect a resignatio 12 rather than firing in order that you drop your claim. 13 ' Mr. Edgar. [I think that perhaps legal language sounds end 14 appropriate but I think as a matter of fact it w6ultd":be 18 looked upon by him as another act of aggression on our 16 part toward him and I think that what Mr. Ford is suggesting VW . is that we just resolve the matter as quietly as possible, 18 and in fact he was fired on the same day he wrote the letter 19 | Of xesignation, I think, or very chose to that, and it was. 20 a matter of that letter being in the mail and I think, oh just a brief note to him saying, we are now in receipt - of your letter of resignation ‘and in receipt of your C) og " gecona letter,.we' feel: that “your compensation is not 24 justified, 35 percent claim, but we do, however, feel that fod 3s we can at this time accept your. regignation:as-opposdd:.to DoclId: 322766736 Page 24
eon, Co —_ 23 © an action of dismissal on our part. Mr. Sprague. Can I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that some- thing . along that: line would be ; fine, but instead of making it definitie at this moment, you allow us an opportunity to check with the House what is the effect of notice of dismissal and the papers having been processed through and then the desire to handle it on this basis. I would not want to put this Committee in any position of certain action having been taken. Mr. Dodd. Mr. Chairman, I was _ going to make that suggestion as: ‘well. I do not know if there is any legal distinction: to be made between a firing and resignation in ‘terms of putting us in a: compromising situation. . I would suggest that we submit it to counsel for determination. Mr. Sprague: There’ is:no’ reason we: cannot have it by Monday. Mr. Ford. Mr. Chairman, we are talking about action On::Monday. Now March 8 was the termination date, I guess it was sent to ‘the Clerk's office, right? - We are: just saying now the Conmittee is taking . action’ since we received the letter of resignation, we will accept: the resignation. | Mr. Edgar. Tt.iastill a dismissal. -' Mr. Ford. ‘It is still a dismissal but just saying, for his record that we will accept his resignation. DoclId:32266786 Page 25
—_ e 12 13 14 “15 16 19 20 21 (23 26 as , - 25 this Committee moves to rescind its previous action regard- ing Mr. Bruton. Ready for the question? All those in favor, say “aye.” Chorus of "ayes." The Chairman. Opposed "No." (No response.) | The Chairman. The motion is carried unanimously and so ordered. Follow through on that. There are several other matters we have to take up. ' We have one problem, the House goes in session at .ll,and in the event that we are going'to be in session, once the House goes into the 5-minute rule, we will have to ave the permssion from the House, which means I will have to go over and make that request. Mr. Ford. We do not want to get called on that, you know, people might object to the assassinations Committee meet- ing. “oo - Mr. Devine. Can we conclude what we will have to do? The Chaizman. So what we will do is just get started and I can go over and get that at 11. Mr. Ford. Before we continue on, Mr. Chairman, can I ask a question about what time are we going to meet ‘Monday or have you set: a meeting ‘for Monday? The Chairman. I do not believe we have set one, have we?: Docld: 3272766756 Page 27
“251 AE Mr. Sprague. Well, under the rules, we list it for 2 every Monday and Tuesday . 3 The Chairman. Every Monday, Tuesday and Thursday at 4 10 a.m. 5 Me. Ford. Will there be a meeting called for Monday? 6 The Chairman. Well, it would depend upon, I think, some 7 of the things that come out here today as to whether or not 8 there is going to be a necessity for one on Monday. 9 So, you know, I cannot say at this time. 10 Mr Sprague. Mr. Chairman. | ao The Chairman. Mr. Sprague. 12 ' Mr. Sprague. The thing that I wou H urge you as soon 13 as there is a feeling that the Budget matters can be reported 14 out properly; that we do that as quickly as possible so “AS that we can get moving, and the new resolution which I hope 16 you could take up today, that perhaps then being reported W _ out ata public session, so that then that could start 18 moving its way through the appropriate Committees of the House. 19 _' @he Chairman. Hopefully, I was hoping that we might 207 in terms 6f the Budget, be able to encompass it in some 21 type of a hearing where it is not the sole item. 22 ‘I do not think that we ought to let the media to 23 just focus in on budget that day but would rather see it .24. 1 sandwiched in with something else so that, among other as matters taken up that day is yot-just the. budget. If we DoclId: 322766736 Page 26
26 give them just the budget, they will go wild on that. © 2 But the next item I wanted us to get into was the 3 mattercof the resolution and where we are on that. 4 Mr. Edgar. Mr. Chairman. 5 TheénChairman. I will get to you in just a minute. 6 We have already taken up the matter of the prepared 7 record of hearings and so forth before you arrived. , 8 Mr .Edgar. | 9 Mr. Edgar. Mr. Chairman, let me just speak for 10 a moment about the Budget request and the preliminary budget U request that’ is here. It seems to me that we ought not to 12 be too worried about having a meeting that solely would @ iB focus on the budget because it seems to me the budget is . 14 one issue of perhaps three major issues that is in contention 4S in the“House. Iftmight:be helpful if, in fact, on Monday 16 or Tuesday of next week a public meeting were held at v7 which time the staff would review the program to date . 18 of the two investigations, looking into Dr. King and Mr. 19 Kennedy's death. And the proposed direetion of 20 | those investigations: over the new few months and that, as par 21 of that’ agenda of specific perhaps skeleton outline of 22 the two investigations and bringing everybody up to date, er) we might suggést that one of the issues that must be . considered for the reconstitution is the issue of the & 25 bueget. At that pointm Mr. Preyer could be recognized to , present the budget process and we could go through it Docld:32266786 Page 29
“a FS 21 item by item and indicate through a dialog our pleasure at the fact that the budget is not as high as it was suggested. publicly in December and although we feel that this is not as adequate maybe for the two investigations, we think it will get us through the next year, fiscal year. We could look at perhaps the language of the resolu- tion. And then maybe at the end of that meeting focus in on some element of either the Kennedy or the King assassina- tion that could be held at a public setting. I think | what you would get from that is press similar to the press . we got yesterday, that the Committee is serious, that it is about its process, it is not simply hung up on internal problems, but in fact it is looking to its recon- stitution. ‘Not just to reconstitute it for the sake of recon- ' stitution, but in light of the Committee's work todate on the investigations. And perhaps at that public meeting, Mr. Tannenbaum and Mr. Lehner could outline, just in a skele- tal way, the things that are possible to make public and _ not revealing anything that we feel is sensitive at this point. but I think, if we do not cloak it in that kind | . of a direction, we are going to run the risk of you know, saying we are reducing the budget for the sake of reducing the budget which I think would be wrong, or wexare;~you know, trying to slip something past. I think the public is Docld: 32727667586 Page 30
& 10 JW 12 13 14 “1S 16 17 23 _ 24 25 28 very interested in both investigations. And I think £f::thecmedia is‘:interested fihn>that and we could have that four-part agenda, skeleton review of where wé are on the Kennedy and King Assassinations, response to that, the resolution for reconstitution, connected with the discussion of the budget and finally some specific focus on some specific piece of evidence or form that is now being pursued to try to clarify it, perhaps around our pursuit of that yesterday and around some other matter. | Mr. Dodd. Would the gentleman yield. Mr. Edgar. Iyield. Mr. Dodd. I think- it is a good proposal and--the only caveat I would express::would have to do with the Budget proposal in addition to our own caveat and that is to make sure we do not reveal things that would, in any way, jeopardize the investigation I, feel that our first purpose a a in this process of reconstitution ‘has to be with. the leadership of the Houses. I include in that number . ‘the rules Committee, with’':whic I am deeply concerned ihicterms of the closeness of the vote if we do not have the kind of support I think we are going to have ‘to: have among the. leadership itself and rather than going public with | even a discussion of that budget prior to our opportunity < or an opportunity todiscuss.. Docld: 32266736 Page 31
e & 29° that with the leadership to make sure that we have no prob- lems with then. : I would hope that we might defer that discussion a. Say and I would hope we could arrange a meeting, Mr. Chairman, with leadership and I can say firsthand, that the Rules Committee is very much interested in having an executive session with this committee or the leadership of this Committee to discuss that item and others. Mr. Edgar. Suppose that were to occur on Monday or tuesday and the meeting I am suggesting would occur on Wedndsday? | Mr. Dodd. Fine,that is perfect. Mr. Edgar. At least, give you the choreography of hav- ing briefed the leadership having presented to the Rules Committee and having presented publicly before our Committee that public information getting to the press and. perhaps your "Dear Colleague" letter arriving on Thursday of next week out: to:every member of the Congress indicating what the new budget is and urging support for reconstitution cosigned by as many members of. our Select Committee as. possible. | | “Mr. Dodd. I agree with that, I think. I want. to be sure-of ‘our leadership and I want to be sure _ mo problems with them ‘and having them made public and perhaps have concerns with them and get into that adversary Docld:32266786 Page 32
23 24 2s . “321 this investigation to pursue, we need to move to its recon- stitution, that is only a week after we have our public meeting. The language of that reconstitution could be shared . and as part of that would be the budget requests. Mr. Preyer could be recognized by ten minutes to ll, five minutes to 11, indicating the task group's report on the budget in light of the investigative needs that have just been revealed that get the focus on the investigation needs and leads and then on the budget. | Discuss that until 11:30 and then the final half: hour of the public session focusing in on one caveat or one element that we think is important and appro- priate, at that time to release. . oo . | That gets us to 12 o'clock noon. Mr. Fithian. In other words, answering the question what is the next immediate step in the investigation process? Mr. Edgar. I think part of our problem as a committee has been the choreography of, you know, how we are received publicly and I think if we have that agenda clearly in mind and know vhat we are going to do and the microphones are all working and move into a meeting and we look over and we look like we are moving, I think we are moving on some key leads and we have our two top investigators share a very carefully-drawn comment Docld: 32266736 Page 34
22? 10 .U 12 13 14 “15 V7 18 19 20 21 23 26 & | * - 32 on the King and Kennedy Assassinations, that I think will set the stage, followed up immediately by a "Dear Colleague” letter that would go to every Congressman indicating what our resolution and budget request will be and urging their ‘support. Wednesday night's public media would announce our information, you know, then we can talk about,.after that, what:else needs to be done along the lines of our Whip count and others to have the Committee reconstituted. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Fithian. What is your plan with the leadership for going to the rules Committee and going to the Floor? Hav we selected-- | The Chairman. My last conversation regarding it was . with Bill.Brown, the Parliamentarian, who suggested that our report’ ought to be filed on the 28th, that _we eught to check with the leadership and have the leadership of the Rules Committee hear us on the 29th and that we should| go to the floor on the 30th. Now that is the last conver- sation I have had with Mr. Brown at that time when he indicated how we should go about procedurally filing the report and so forth in setting up our rules. . Some have said’ information discussion. Maybe - we should think about going to the Rules Committee before the 29th to give ourselves a little extra leeway in the event we encounter some problems. But certainly we =: | Docld: 32727667586 Page 35
10 Y 12 13 14 15 16 7. 1 19 23 24 "33 ought to sit with the leadership well in advance of the 28th--I would think no later than the first of next week is appropriate--where we can say to them what we have been able to do up to now and give them a good account of the Committe's work. Mr. Ford. Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Mr. Ford. Mr. Ford. Is this basically you are talking about the members of the Rules Committee, erzare weigoing to send a memo around to all of our colleagues in bringing them up to. date becanse:;wevare going to need all of those votes.on the House floor. Mr. Edgar. Will the gentleman yield. Mr. Ford. | Yes. . Mr. Edgar. I think my interpretation of time table is to have a meeting with the Rules committee on Monday, andTTuesday;,:have aipiblic: meétgng on Wednesday. and Thursday and. rridy would be the dates that Our. "Dear Colleague" letters would go around bringing everybody up to datecon. the budget and on the proposed date and the form of reconstitution which, as I understand it, is a year extension on the budget and a two-year authorization for the Committee, itself. By Thursday and Friday of next week, if I understand Mr. Fithian's comments which will be | made a little bit later, we will have done a whip count Docld: 322766756 - Page 36
a — 22 oO 24 @ s . ; 34 of the House to find out where our problems lie, whether they are in the area of budget or in the area of reconstitut- ing the Committee at all and what our problems are and we will be spending Thursday, Friday and Monday and Tuesday _ of the following week trying to work on individual Congress- men to help clarify for them where the Committee is at. I thing our "Dear Colleague" letter should include some of the«information that would be shared at our public meeting next Wednesday and that is a kind of a direction. I think everything we do has to be focusedon the King Assassination , amd the Kennedy Assassination. We have got to kind of direct our reconstitution around the issues of the investigation . and I think that is the only way that we will get enough votes for the reconstitution at this point. And they are going to be asking us at that point in our history what it is that we ‘have found to date, what is it that we have done todate, what is it going to cost us to continue you for a year, and I think we are very justifiable. in sharing that at.a.public.meeting. | . | ' The Chatman. Let me ask you this, if the gentleman yields to me for a moment-~a question in terms of your pro- cedure here. I am sure that one of the main issues when we go to rules. will be the issue of the budget and procedurally if we 9°. to rules on Tuesday, whether the ‘Budget is going to be discussed perhaps very comprehensively, Docld: 322766756 Page 37
on 22— («12 24 35 then it sort of seems to take away from the Wednesday public hearing to go into in depth discussion because your news media will be at the Rules Committee meeting. Mr. Edgar. I think what Chris was suggesting, if I was hearing Chris right, who is on the Rules Committee, that the Executive Sessioncdf the meeting of the Rules Com- mittee be held on Tuesday. | The Chairman. I see. Mr. Edgar. And that briefing only partly deals with the Budget, the other part dealing with information on where | we are in the investigation to date and that istnot the meeting of the rules Committee to consider the reconstitution of the Committee. | The Chairman. I see. | Mr. Edgar. That meeting according to the schedule you were suggesting would be on the Tuesday prior to the actual vote on the floor. This might solve the problem that you were worried about. and that is getting to the Rules Committee early, you will know on Tuesday. if you meet in Executive ‘Session and share the investigation with them on where the assassinations are and what our proposed budget is going to be,xwhat kinds. of problems. you will have before the Rules Committee and that will give you a week's time until your official meeting of the Rules. Committee in public to be granted a rule for house floor action. Docld: 322766736 Page 33
& 36 Mrs. Burke. Would the gentleman yield? ‘The Chairman. Mrs. Burke. Mrs. Burke. Do we have any idea of the number of people who have requested to appear before the Rules Com- | ‘mittee? I understood Mr. Milford and I had heard a couple of other people, had requested to appear. The last time ‘I do not think it was so much the problem with the Rules Committee as we had as the problem of getting all of the witnesses in one day. So the Rules Committee hearing, itself. went for two days =... by the time all the witnesses testified I got the impression: that there were still a number 46 witnesses who wanted to be heard by the Rules Committee but I think maybe, if we can clarify that, we can tell about how. much time it would :take for us to complete our work before the Rules Committee. Because I would really hate to see us be on Tuesday , March 28 starting a rules committee hearing where there are ten people asking to testify. The Chairman. Yes. . Mes. Burke. And then we have the other disadvantage ig we do not testify and you have all anti people testify- ing, you are at a distinct specific-- Mr. Ford. Would ‘the gentleiady yield? Mrs. Burke. ‘Yes. . Mr. Ford. I am under the impression you were speaking Docld: 32727667586 Page 39
; 38 taken a special interest in some of the charges relating to Mr. Sprague, that they would be the ones to respond to those types of issues. which they are well informed on and I think we might try tc orchestrate’ that: before: gding::toithe rules. Mr. Edgar. Mr. Chairman, I have jotted down a summary of what I have said. Maybe I could repeat it, since Mr. Preyer has just come in. The Chairman. All right. Mr. Edgar. I made the suggestion that the following . scenario be developed and that is that on Monday, March 21, next week a meting be held with the leadership to bring them up to date where we are with the budget as well as any additional leads we have. | Mr. Devine. Are you speaking of the meeting of the Committee or the meeting of the Chairman? | Mr. Edgar. I would think that meeting of the Chairman and those members, minority and majority--I think Mr. Preyer should be present. I think the ranking minority member should be present. . Mr. Devine. Sometimes the leadership is uncomfortable with minority present. I am not offended one way or the other. | Me. Eagar. Well, I think at this time, it might be necessary to. have the ininority present to point out bipartisa participation, the second scenario Tuesday; March 22 and Docld:32266786 Page 41
12 13 14 20 21 @ 22 23 ry 24 & 25 a 39 a request be made of the Rules Committee to hold an Executive meeting to again be briefed in a very similar way to the way in which the leadership was briefed on Monday as to the proposed budget as well as direction of the Committee. ‘And that on Wednesday, Marti: 23 a public meeting be hel for two hours minimum of this Committee between 10 and ll o'clock at which time we would begin with perhaps a 45- minute reporting, split between the Kennedy and King assassinations as to what direction we are going and what evidence and information we can share publicly. - That at or approximately at a quarter of 11 or so, Mr. Preyer would be recognized to give a report on the budget task force and then we would deal with the resolution and the budget task force information in a public hearing and finally the last caveat of that meeting would be to focus in on one of the two assassinations and some particular issue that is newsworthy or of newsworthy interest that could be shared with the public. And that would make the meeting really three-fold, one to bring us up to date on: direction two, to finalize the reconstitution resolution language with the: budget: and: three to focus in on one specific: issue. Thursday: and Friday of next week the 24th and 25th this would be used for “Dear Colleague letters" that wo8ld be sent by us, urging support. Byathat time DoclId: 322766786 Page 42
e — 40. the Budget figure will be public and by that time any information that is shared at the public meeting on Wednesday ' can be aired. Also we might want to consider Thursday of next week filing our report. It doesn't seem to me that we have to wait until Monday to do that and that. perhaps woutd give the Rules Committee Monday and Tuesday to hear public witnesses on whether or not we should be reconstituted and we could perhaps file our report on Thursday or Friday | and the House Committee would then have Monday and Tuesday to review the’ issues of reconstitution... And that we would ask the Rules Committee to set up their schedule so that on the 29th they would move to final _ action and if they feel they need two days for that, they then could have hearings on Monday the 28th as well as the 29th and the report will have been submitted. And we would then go to the House Floor on Wednesday the 30th, under an open rule, one hour debate, I assume for the resolution. Mr. Devine. Mr. Chairman. | me The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Devine. “Mr. Devine. That brings up the question of mechanics and preparing, selecting content, approving or having printed the Committee report. I was wondering from a time standpoint just how long the mechanics-would take Docld:32266786 Page 43
‘41 place, and that could‘be considerable, the same ones we are in position to talk about. The Chairman. Anyone have a response to that? Mr. Devine. We,in the Committee, have to determine what the content will be. The Chairman. Right. Mr. Devine. £S0, I do not know. Mr. Edgar. Much of that preparation will be done by the Wednesday meeting I would assume. . Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Mr. Sprague. Mr. Sprague. I would think that we could have a draft of a report for this Committee to pass out among you for thoughts about it, iet us say, this coming Monday at _ some point and if you would give us now some thoughts as to things | that you would. like to see included in there, | we would inelude that as well and then from that kind of a draft perhaps either the latter part of Monday or some early part of the week we could get together and do that. We could have then a report perhaps to be considered by the Committee by Wednesday. I do not: know what the printing time would be after that. Mr. Devine. We have to give you some direction before that about what you feel about the contents. DoclId: 322766736 Page 44
Cal 23 24 as 42 | Mr. Sprague. If you could give some now, it would be. helpful. | - | ' The Chairman. Also supposedly if that’is:.presented at the Wednesday meeting which would be an additional part of the agenda and then, of course, we would allow. the necessary time for supplemental views and additional views to the report which provides:each:.member a chance for. any additional views or supplement thereto. Mr. Devine. And/or any dissenting. The Chairman. And/or any dissenting, all of that. Mr. Edgar. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could ask the STaff, having heard the scenario, whether they have any concern about any part of that.- | The Chairman. Mr. Sprague. Mr.Sprague..i:.-Mrz-Chairman, first thing I did want to say we did have copies of a proposed resolution to pass out now for the Committee for you perhaps looking at and giving some thought while we are together at this session... | | With regard to that proposed scenario, it sounds fine but r would really think that that aspect. dealing with a public hearing in a presentation by Mr. Lehner and Mr. Tannenbaum is ‘not. workable, for the reason that what they can say publicly. is really almost a rehash kind of thing. It is not saying anything--the only things that they Docld: 3272766736 Page 45
72%, > om cS) 20 21 r ) 22 23 24 43 can say of significance you heard in the Executive session the other day, things that are too raw and uncorroborated for us to be stating publicly. It may have an effect for what you have in mind in terms of a budget but it is not what we can do or ought to do. To not say those things is only to be saying what? That we have to, we want to go up to Canada, we want to check how people used these aliases, we want to go out and check things in California, that has been said time and time again. Anda presentation that just is repeating | basically what would be questionséd by anyone who would -- tncfactlfhey have heard it from us before as well. I do not know. whether that meets the bill you have in mind. In fact I really question in my mind whether the reaction to thatupublicly is what are they doing over and over again. The Final ‘thing is like you: say ~-we end up on one particular thing that you are going to go into, again, if we are to investigate this, we do not do it by just focusing on a . thing, we really go back to the scenes of these crimes and have got to find out who was there, what they saw, how to get to that scene, what happened since? Mr. Edgarc. Would the gentleman yield? Mr. Sprague. Yes. Mr. Edgar. t- think un an cotta terms of information you could share with the rehashing but let me DoclId: 322766736 Page 46
?? «44 just: share this: That if it was a rehashing that was focused on: what: direction; what organizational direction we had come and: what: direction we plan to go in the future in- terms of general leads and move then to the resolution of reconstitution. What I was suggesting is that last half hour was something: like: what we did yesterday. We had Mr. Traficantee there and he was pleading the 5th- Amend- ment. I think we aid: more: yesterday, even without getting factual information simply because it focused again on the fact’ that we’ are looking: into: the issue. And I would think that there is at’ least one subpoena that we have issued that may be: returnable at that point or one person that might even come at’ that point to be interrogated by the Committee, . . or one’ piece of: information and I realize that, in terms of the investigate: technique: and: issues that is not the way to go, but I guess‘ I have some concern about the scenario and choreographt of getting the committee reconstituted and I realize that while we do not want a circus atmosphere, we want it to be as content filled as possible, but I doubt: that we will be able to reconstitute ourselves if we’ are: not: able to- demonstrate to the House that Mr. Stokes is: now: taking the Committee seriously, he is now bringing the STaff before it ata public meeting to outline where . we plan to go in terms: of direction, we review carefully ‘a budget: and then we focus in on one issue and indicate Docld: 322766736 Page 47
> 20 21 22 23 24 25 45 this is going to be the course of the investigation from now on. We are going to take one piece of the pie and thorough] look into it. The Chairman. Mr. Fithian. | Mr. Fithian. Could I add one thing to that before you proceed? | I agree with you, Dick, the bringing us up to date will appear as a rehash to those of us who are really immerse in it. - ne * . a " . I think you may totally overestimate the attention that has been paid to this by members of the House. You know the members of the House are now talking about things which were currently important in December or January. “= Now, educating the public is a very, very difficult thing. Getting them them focused is'a difficult thing. Rationaliz- ing MrivuvPreyer*s budget that_he_is going to propose is going to be a difficult thing.. It seems to me that, if we are going to, if we are responsible to the House, we ought to be alble to come back to the House and tell them why we came up with X number of millions of dollars in the budget and the rationale for that budget has to depend on two ‘things: (1) where have we been? (2) where are we going? Now, quite honestly unless we can tell them that in DoclId: 322766736 Page 46
eo | 2 24 . . ‘46 some reasonable way, we are not going to get their support because they expect that and they deserve that. _ Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Mr. Sprague. Sorry, Mr, Devine. | Mz."Devine. I think it would be a serious error if we went into simply a rehash of what people learned from the Warren report, from the Senate Committee and so forth. Perhaps we should touch on just a few of those things in passing but in talking to the Staff and to Mr. Sprague, I kno that they have literally hundreds of undeveloped leads. | Now, if from that group of undeveloped leads you could discuss generally without revealing names, dates, times or places, that for instance, as I think you told us in Executive Session abouttthe/ information of another member trying’ to inform us about a former police officer of long- standing in a large metropolitan police department, had information suggesting these things. And that we have another witness in a state that was an eye witness=to the King or the Kennedy matter that was never interviewed by . either the Warren Commission or the Senate So we get maybe as many as ten undeveloped leads that you could get enough of it not to reveal the identity. ' and ‘not to disturb the ‘investigation but let people know that, My God, they are onto something that is new stuff DocId:32266786 Page 49
ain 12 @ . 13 14 19 20° tone, oe...” © Latimer? 23. e . mh | 2s 47, and get a direction. I think that would be better than just a rehash of what the Warren Commission report was. The Chairman. On that point, let me further amplify what I think the members here are getting at, what Mr. Devine just said. Interestingly enough with all of us being aware of what yesterday's hearing démongtfated pubkicly, and was con- ducted in’ a way in which it was not overstaged or in | a circus atmosphere or anything of that sort, but interesting enough, an article out of the Cleveland Plain Dealer this morning after they write about the entire situation and tell, and reported itrvery accurately, then: they quoted me with reference to the appearance of traficantee. And speaking of me, said "He said, call Traficantee, that demonstrates that the Committee is forging ahead with this investigation. James Delaney, Democrat of New York, the Chairman of the House Rules Committee said the panel will have to produce something more substantial than witnesses refusing to testify to justify the House spendirig more money on the investigation. The Rules Committee approval will be needed to continue the Committee's charter after March 31. ‘Delbert L. Latta,a key Republican o. the Committee agreed. The Committee ‘has to come up with something that gets to the point that the investigations are more than Docld:32266786 Page 50
e 10 cn 12 14 15 16 V7 20 21 23 ms) 4s _ - 48 just a wild-goose chase, he said. I think that is right. Mr. Edgar. I think that is at the heart of what I was trying to say, and that is that the facts of life of getting the: Committee reconstituted are the agenda for the next two weeks and it is unfortunate, because it ties the hands of the investigators who have these leads and I want to see us reconstituted so that we do not have to go to’ the’ House for another year for money and for another two years at all in‘ terms of any action in terms of rules or anything. © I think that, if we. -eannot somehow develop a public discussion of: the ‘budget, that is not ‘connected with some ‘unknown issue but is actually connected with the kind of thing: that Mr. Devine is suggesting and that is 8 or 9 or 10 directions that we are going in light of these steps that we have made. Now one of the things that could be publicly announced are some of the subpoenas that have been sent to gather information and I think just summarizing for every- boedy, though it sounds: like rehashing to us, it may be stuff that is rehashed in public as opposed to the Execu- tive sessions: and ‘then to: focus in on five directions that wexare chipping away. in the King investigation and five that. we are chipping away in the Kennedy investigation, information that.is.causing us some. concern. ‘Now; . you..asked..questions..yesterday of Mr. Taficantee. Docld: 322766736 Page 51
10 JU 12 “13 14 “18 16 7 18 19 - 20 21 ) 22 23 24 25 49 And if you were alert, you knew why you were asking those questions but to the average person, particularly the average Congressman who is very busy, the only thing he remembers about yesterday's event with Mr. Traficantee is that.he pleased the 5th. I think there is-some-information that we can share about Mr. Traficantee that might beta’ = lead that would permit us to reach the circle. The Chairman. Mr. Preyer, and then we will get back to you, Mr. Sprague. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Chairman, I had thought in terms — _—_—— of the report and I think the report basically is what — we are talking about --the public meeting--I think basically approaches probably abaut the same-~and one way to pitch it would be in terms of what are the unanswered questions which we need to deal with. a In the Kennedy assassination, speaking of that, Boggs' memo lists the whole series of witnesses whom we could not name but I think there are a number of unanswered questions that we could put forward. The thing that .disturbes me is the suggestion in Mr. Delaneu's comments there and we have heard from others, too, the leadership that if we do not show evidence that we are going to get a different result, then it is a waste of time. It seemed to me that is entirely off the track in.. the Kennedy thing particularly. Docld: 322766786 Page 52
traf 14 ma) 19 _ trad 20 21 23 24 O@ e “50 It seems to me that we are going to answer some. questions that might have the same résult, but there are good reasons to do this, even if you come out with the same result, just to lay to rest certain theories, and we could _ gay here are the facts on it, he is right or he is wrong on .it and.I wonder if we cannot, you know, put enough questions to be answered without having to suggest we are going to come up with a Sensational new answer to the thing, just that because of credibility of our government, | we need to lay them to rest, new questions that the Warren Commission;y-a lot-of that would be rehashing but if we could suggest somewhere along the line you know that we have witnesses that at least we want to follow up on to follow up on a particular question and Traficantee, for example; since he is out there, aandUI-think: that-area-is generally known; the things he said in the past, maybe there we would want to indicate that as an area that we want to follow up on and perhaps explain why ,he was called when we say we are not calling other people who have ' been interviewed: but Traficantee is obviously the kind _ O£ fellow you cannot interview. “So really, to call him was a responsible action, it was not an irresponsible thing. The Oswald letter to Hunt and so forth is an obvious thing that is going to ‘have to be answered some time, so Many of these things need to be answered. So I was Docld: 32266786 Page 53
20 21 22 23 24 C@ “e 25 DoclId: 322766736 FP 51 thinking in terms of report: as emphasizing unanswered questions and following up on them is really what we are about ,not trying to come up with a different result. And that we might be able to discuss some of those at the hearing or in the report without laying out too many names and facts. . Mr. Fithian. Would you agree with Mr. Devine and that is that we could discuss and we dpecifically refer to areas named or unnamed as far as that is concerned, of witnesses or of questions which have not been looked into, I think that is what I run into all the time--are you doing anything new or are you just digging up the old bones? Well, to get the answers that you want, you are going to have to dig up all the answers and go to the scene of the murder and all that. That is not what anybody is interested in at this point, that is part of the whole. problem but what I think Mr. Devine is interested in is part of the whole program,is this Committee looking into anything that. has not already been studied to get by the Church Commission ,. the Warren Commission, et al, and if we are not, then we just have to come down real hard on what Mr. Preyer is saying and say, well enough questions about what. they aia that we are just looking at the same . things or may or may not come up with the same answer but I kind of think we could do both of those things. e 54
‘52 Mr. Devine. Well, just to oversimply instead of treating water, we should plow a little new ground. Mr. Sprague. Mr. Chairman, we can do what Mr. Devine Says and Mr. Preyer and the whole thrust of this. “However, I find that part of the difficulty from an ‘investigative standpoint but a second difficulty is that what we have done or are doing is being distorted by the media: for whateve their reasons are. | - I am kind of at a loss here when we are talking about what are we to be presenting and in what format, when really what we are tiying to do is get back to Mr. Delaney and Mr. Latta. | Now, what we in fact have as you got at the time | of the Executive session briefing is’ some, what I consider valuable information which, even at this threshold area, does ' plow new ground. “Must we get to Mr. Delaney and Mr. Latta only on the basis of working out a presentation in some purified manner which it scintillates, taking the chance on how is the news media going to report what it is that _ we: have done here; hoping that Mr. Delaney, maybe, is going to read that article or-- . Mr. Edgar. Would the gentleman yield? | Mr. Sprague.--or maybe has not read it and he is responding on the basis of just somebody running in and saying, hay Aid you‘hear that that Committee dropped that , LS the leadership on Monday, sharing that very sensitive data. It involves sitting down on Tuesday with the Rules Committee 1 in Executive Session, sharing that sensitive data, being 9 7 perceived only by the press as being an executive: session. - 20 ” OhcWednesay , separate: from'Mri-Latta7andifr..“Délaney, 21 we have members of Congress, much of the general public, that 2 puts pressure on members of Congress in terms of their 23 votes for or against reconstitution. I think that there are 26 mp ., ; three different issues. The first issue is what do you a5 say to the leadership and how do you get them on“your side not just nodding vour head or working for you? If Tip O'Neil Docld: 32266786 Page 55
10 me 12 13 14 “15 16 18 19 20 21 23 24 eS _ 2s. DoclId: 322766736 PF 54 is not with us on this thing, we lose the votes in the Rules Committee. That is a fact of life. Secondly, | we have got to say to the Rules Committee, here is the information that we are pursuing in a very sensitive way under this very strict condition and share _ : with them the data that has been shared by this committee. And the third part of it is less sensitive than that and it is just the unanswered questions on the part of the general membership, the uninitiated Congressman who has got to cast a vote or the uninitiated person in the general ~ public that is putting pressure on that Congressman in terms of his vote. The Congressman, basically, is saying, what am I going to get for my money and how much is it going to cost, and are there’ enough unanswered questions to pursue or should we siniply scuttle this and spend the on public works or on some. other issue? | I was not suggesting that Wednesday's meeting be for the Dulaneys:.and ':for the Lattas and the Tip O'Neills or the Jim Wrights. The Wednesday meeting is much more of our public. announcement similar to yesterday's session - that we are serious about the investigation of Kind and Kennedy. We are serious: enough to offer this report and this resolution and this budget, 9 and we have a number of elements of leads, one specific one being to capture their : imagination. . - Mr. Devine. Mr. Chairman.
34 55 The Chairman. Mr? Devine. Mr. Devine. This, of course, is not the way to conduct an investigation, Mr. Sprauge knows that as the Staff does. But what we are | talking about today is survival. The Chairman.. Yes. Let me inject one additional element for the consider- ation of Mr. Edgar, though, and it bears upon what Mr. Spragu has said and this is just for the purpose of further dialogue on the issue-~the news media, there is an additional - pearl when Mr. Sprague ‘starts briefing us and making comments in the open about new witnesses and people who were not talked to. A few days ago when he, in response to a question put to him by me in open meeting, ‘caused reverberations throughout the Congress. What I was trying to obtain from him was the necessity for us to go into Executive Session, and I posed a question, would the briefing be in the nature of matter that should be undertaken in executive session | and he, in response to: that, said, yes, Mr. Chairman, we will. present testimony regarding others who may have been involved, and SO on. The new media went wild with that. Calls came in from Canada about the fact, didn't Sprague say this, that he has” some others--evidence of conspiracy. This and that. ‘They ran wild with it. At the same time it had another reper cussion in the Congress. Those who had made Mr. Sprague the . issue, used this to say there he is, spouting off at the DoclId: 322766736 Page 57
56 . mouth again, Sprague again, speaking for the Committee, instead of the Committee and the news media is going to take that briefing from him and turn it around. Mr. . Edgar, . Would the gentleman yield? The Chairman: Certainly. Mr. Edgar. I- will not: have Mr. Sprague say more than a sentence or two at: that: public meeting. I would have Mr. “ mannenbaun, Mr. Lehner report: for: Mr. Sprague on what they have done in their separate investigations and I would have Mr. Sprague there and present but clearly saying that here are his: two chief investigators who have briefed the staff'and the committee in executive session, we are summarizing here in public session what we are about, and turn to Mr. Tannenbaum and say now in relationship to the . King investigation would you give your report at this time. I ‘think that if it was carefuly written and carefully . done-- Mr. Fithian. I am wondering. The Chairman. Mrs. Burke, I think has been seeking recognition. * . oe | | . : Mrs. Burke. ‘Well, there’ are two points I just wanted | to hit on very fast. No. 1, I would like to see added to ‘the briefing of the leadership and the briefing of the Rules Committee: in executive session the kind of thing that Mr. Devine is‘ talking about and. those are leads. If there Docld: 322766736 Page 53
57 could be developed a list of undeveloped leads that could be presented to the Rules Committee, so they could get an idea of what we are working on, I think that is what we want them to know. You know, I think the summary is very good but beyond that you nedd to say, O.K. where are we going, and kf we show a list of those leads, witnesses that need to be interviewed, there is a general feeling of what the future kind of work needs to be done, I think the leadership and also the Rules Committee needs that. | My second problem is this, in between all of this if I could see the kind of a public statement that you have din mind, I would be better able to evaluate it. I have been sitting here, wracking my brain, trying to figure out what would be in the public presentation and I cannot visualize it because every. ‘time I think of something I think of something ‘that immediately the press is going to do what you are talking about here, so I would like to reserve at thi point on a determination until perhaps we could get some- thing before us as to what you see would be presented in this public presentation. tir. Edgar. “I woulda think. the same data that is going’ to be’ presented in the report to - justity the reconsti- tution: of this Committee would be what would be shared in ‘the: public meeting. Mrs. Burke. You see this is my proble, I cannot DoclId: 322766736 Page 59:
58 | visualize the kind of things that you have determined can be presented versus those things that cannot be presented without undermining investigation. It would be very helpful to me and I suspect to some others, we would have some of that before us and then make an intelligent deter- mination. | | Mr. Fithian. I was going to suggest,.if perhaps the Wednesday session would not be, we ean use this instead of calli.:j it a briefing, just simply say, you know, the Committee is working on the report. I do not know what the date of the schedule of the report is but you know, in some committees you discuss the report at some length that you are going to go to the Congress with and actually vote on including this that or the other thing. ‘I wonder if we could not use that for the rationale you know, what we are doing today is voting’ or agreeing upon a report that we are going to Congress with and have the two presenting pieces of the report. ‘We are not then, you see, Mr. Sprague, trying to tell them all out there a rehash, we ate doing a logical parliamentarian process simply to prepare a report to the Congress. We would not | be there moving: for: anything: new, it is just what we have been doing; we cannot include everything or we would break the bank in printing it. : Mr. Edgar. Mr.” Chairman. DoclId: 322766736 Page 60
59 Before you replay, Mr. Sprague, we have a vote on the Floor, on the NASA authority. Mr. Devine. Rule on the NASA authority. the: Chairman. O.K. | While on the floor, I will have to request permission for us to meet during the 5~minute rule session, in order for us to be able to sit legally. | Mr. Fithian. It is not within the five-minute rule, is it? The Chairman. No, but if we are going to be meeting later, it looks like we are going to have to go for a while-- I must do that before we meet later on today when we get into that session so I suppose we had better do that because it. looks 1:k2 wa have got quite a few matters to discuss. Mz. Preyer. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if we could — endorse the scenario~-idea position which makes sense to me and maybe wait before we decide what we are going to do on Wednesday, I agree with Mrs. Burke, I have a hard time ff knowing just exectly what it is we are going to try to pre- sent. Did you indicate that you have a draft of the report . perhaps by Monday . Mr. Preyer. We could if you would give us also some idea fof things you would like included in the report today so.we could start working. I wonder if we could go ahead with the scenario but hold off with the decision of what we do on Wednesday to at Docld: 322766736 Page 61
f that. 60 see the report and maybe -- Mr. Devine. ‘Mr. Chairman, the immediate-problem is we are- going to have to go. The second bell has not run yet but are you prepared to meet these wolves outside the door--do you know what you are going to tell them all we have done in here. | | | Tell them-of: what we have done ‘n here. The Chairman. That is a hard question, too. It just seems: to me at‘ this time in light of: yesterday's hearings what I hae‘ been: trying to say to them essentially is that we are still discussing matters that relate to the entire investigation: and many matters which are sensitive in nature and I have- left it go at that. They want to know, can you give us something about the subject - matter and I say, just the investigation... Mr. Preyer. The budget is always a pretty good ' thing to discuss, I guess. “Mr. Sprague. Tf thought you did not want to focus on Mrs. Burke. Tell’them we are talking about the report. Mr. Fithian. I think you shouldkeep them right where you have them now, champing at the bit and not tell them: anything oo a . The Chairman. I' think it has‘more aura because we have Docld:32266786 Phge 62
61 been on the: investigation two. days and especially with Trafcantee being here --we are not just dismissing his appear ance. Mr. Sprague. And I Have things to report back on that anyway. | | The Chairman. 0O.K. we will come back. Yes, we are in room 2325 siine the Committée Space room when we return. | Mrs. Burke. What time? Mr. Fithian Have the people thing we keep moving around just to keep them off balance. | The Chairman. Room 2325 which is on the third floor of this building. We will reconvene there immediately after the roll call. I will be a little late. I will ask mr. ‘Pryer to take. the Chair. | . (Recess...) . (the Committee reconvened in Room 2325 Rayburn House Office Building at 12:15 p.m.
62 The Chairman. ‘The Committee will come back to order. We are once again in Executive Session and I assume all personnel in the room are permitted. | Mr.’ Dodd.” Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Mr. Dodd. Mr. Dodd. © Mr. Chairman, I spoke with Chairman’ Dulaney : on the floor about the prospects of going before the Rules Committee. He is amenable to it and I would like to do it. . His_problem is. one of scheduling. One, the situs Picketing bill is up before the Rules Committee at One p.m. on Monday and they expect that to take the entire afternoon, if not Tuesday so -he was talking about Wednesday or so. I told him that I thought the presentation in executive session, informal: presentation in Executive Session, would not necessarily take any imore than 45 minutes to an “hour if we could boil it down in any way and we are trying to work out possibly around noon on Monday. We wanted to clea it with the Speaker before he did anything and will get back to me thiscafternoon.. He is very interested in doing -it. It is really a question of working out the time and making sure the Speaker does not have any objections to that kind of a program. | The Chairman. All right. | Mr. Dodd. He should have time, yes. The Chairman. Fine. DoclId: 322766736 Page 64
63 We will just make ourselves available. At the time we recessed, we still had the matter under discussion as to the nature of the agenda of the public . meeting, so we will resume discussion on that point if there are further comments. | Mr, Sprague. Not to belabor the point but I guess ‘Ishave a feeling as I have said from the investigative stand- point and I agree with what Mrs. Burke and Judge Pryer said, that it is very difficult to think of what is being presented 7 publicly that is meaningful, that doesnot get into that which ought to not be presented and if we really want to focu on what wihl make a headline and perhaps something that members of Congress can read, because I think the only thing basically that is read is the headline, not the . ‘story. We are thén subject to: the headline writer. You know, - we could present: that whole memo from the Executive . Session. | | You know, obviously to do that is to throw away at 19 least: the immediate efforts in this investigation and I 20 “€ind: myself’ again: wondering: whether: ox not a presentation 1-.:-1s n “lessens then that does not’ subject: us to merély-a | | headiine: writer that said’ almost Ho-hum," or "nothing new," and whether: the risk of that is not greater than the 26 * potential advantage: of something’ being there that all of a 495 sudden makes it: look- like we are striking pay dirt. Docld:32266786 Pdye 65
Docld: 32266766 Pal ' the story in its entirety. expressed himself as he has. _ 64 Secondly, I do find myself wondering to what extent the concept of this being of influence to other members of Congress as meaninful. | It kind of assumes that the story is reported accurately, it assumes that the members of Congress read , I question both those assumptions. It seems to me that if the thought is to get it out because then of the pressure that will come from the public back to the Congress, the realities are that the people who were. contacting their Congressmen are primarily those that are | against something. Those that are for, they will read that but they are not motivated to write saying, you had better get: this thing through. » Even that assumption questions ‘who become the letter- writers and in addition to- that since time is of the essence here, Tt really wonder to what extent whatever is reported in + the press: next week is going to get acted upon that quickly by-members of a public that convey their attitudes in a .| significant manner te members Of Congress which is going to | be: the basis 6£ action that they ‘may take and finally, I am . struck by. the fact that, -let us say that Mr. Latta has Mr. Latta, as I understand it, | lives with Mr. Devine, they . share an apartment. ' You know, we ) have our report, I am willing that it be available to members of congress through members of this Committee. e 66
; ; 65 It seems to me that, if we are trying to get to that member, and in fact we may be on the Rules Committee, I do not mean 1 him particularly, but we are happy to have, let us say, Mr. Devine have a copy of that report one evening with Mr. Latta, sit down, read this thing, let us talk about it. Now if after he has read it, that does not’ persuade him, I daresay nothing in the paper, nothing that you do publicly is going to persuade him. It seems to me tha ‘the effort that has to be made again is not just a matter of the formulation of the questions of the leadership that they or whatever members of the Congress that this Committee things can ‘be important, that they just have to literally b dragged, if that can: be done, and set down and a presentation made to them. To try to do’ it. through this indirect vehicle, I. think is just not going to be effective. The Chairman. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Fithian. Thank you. I would not want Mr. Sprague to operate under the delu- sion that we were: going to ‘rely-on the: Washington Post recon- stituting us, nor: that: we: were going to rely on this next Wednesday meeting reconstituing us. At the earliest opportunity, later in the session here, I am prepared to present a plan for the politics of this in terms of getting - the required votes. --" Docld: 32266756 PRge 67
66 However, I would say, and there is a great deal of accuracy in what you say both in terms of timing and all the rest. The one thing that attraced me to Mr. Edgar's proposal was that the two or three ‘public meetings that we have had, even regardless of how badly Lardner had reported them, and he has reported them pretty badly, have nonetheless to erode the feeling generally held by many members of the House that we really have not done anything. It is to the question, what have you’done eince. you have been constituted last October, we are precious hard to come up with anything without going into leads which we cannot talk about. The very fact that the Committee is meeting in an orderly process, it is being briefed by its two investigators for each saide, whether that is a ‘justification for the report that we are now going to submit or whether we figure out some other way ofijustifying what 7 . _ they are doing, we then move to orderly discussion of the . | budget and so on. 19 I oo, These are things which, if they are occurring, tend 20 ; to transmit almost by rote training to other Congressmen 21 ; that the normal functions are being performed, that is that . the Committee is discussing its report. The Committee 23 is discussing its budget, the Committee is discussing the 24 . things that justify it continuing to spend its time. 2s. All of these things are common among the members of the DoclId: 322766736 PF 63
67 House. They do not appear as much in the paper, they certainly do not appear as anything to investigators, I am sure of that and they do not swing a deal that they wilt - vote against this resolution--if Sam Devine sat down with DeLatta for six hours, he is not going to vote for this, unless Mr. Stokes has any magic that I do not know of. The Chairman: I do ot have any. Mr. Fithian. | I still intend to inquire as to how we ean proceed and we have to discuss the budget at some time and whether or not we cannot use this public session on Wednesday as a demonstration that we are working, we are proceeding on in anorderly fashion. . Mr. Sprague. I certainly would not disagree with anything you said, all I do want to emphsize is that while I do not know the result of it, Mr. Devaney had myself and Mr.Tannenbatini and Mr. Lehner last night meet with some people, members of Congress--they are not particu- larly enamored with this Committee and the purposes with | meeting with them maybe that when they heard something, when they saw the: kind of personnel that we had, that their “attitudes might change. and whil,e I do not deal in asking people for commitments , I would say that as a result of just that getting together here with some people who have been stronglopponents, who by the end of it gave pretty good | indication that tidy might: perhaps be changing their minds. DoclId: 322766736 Page 69
68 Now, to do what you say from a cosmetic sense, and a soothing sense, I understand that but I guess I am focusing on what really will help get a job done. Mr. Edgar. Would the gentleman yield? | I was not going to say too much coming back since the idea was shared this morning but I think that it is very important to look at the psychology of what we are about. And I think that Mr. Fithian is exactly right in that the public and the Congress have to be reinforced that the . Committee isiin ‘control and that the Committee is pursuing the investigation in an orderly fashion. Now, I think that you do have competent investigators that have briefed us and I guess at the heart of my suggestion, and I think Mrs. Burke perhaps has a better idea, and that is, after we review the report, it seems to.me that a public’ session is in order to have that report revealed, _ discuss the ‘budget, discuss what direction the committee is going to go in four or five or ten or whatever possible i, directive leads that we are heading on in a general way, | and I think that goul:knoy, iétsbhowld not be misunderstood , that we intend this public session to be a session where we are, in fact, going to change the minds of a lot of . Congressmen on ‘specifi¢ issues but I think the public meeting should be perceived as a public affirmation that the Committee is erious, as well as tool whereby we follow that up with specific action through the "Dear Colleague" DoclId: 322766736 Page 70
. . a 69 letters and through specific discussions with those Congressmen in person sharing in more detail the kind of information that you have shared in smaller settings. | I think, 4£ we go, between now and the 30th of March, only with private settings, only with private discussions with Congressmen, we may find ourselves on March 30 shy of some votes because: we have not given the general Congress the impression that the Committee is working actively and pursuing it. And with respect to Mr. Sprague's investigative skills and I think investigation beyond the 30th should proceed as aggressively and in depth as possible, but the psychology in the next two weeks is important and I think we need both in-dpth discussionwith the Rules Committee and the leadership and the in-depth discussion with ‘Congressmen | at the same time we are perceived in the public ‘media ' as being ¢ about our business. Mrs. Burke. I have just been thinking about some “ff report. language. When t suggest that I have no pride of quthoriship, 4 ait may not make sense so I am | just throwing it . out and one thing I was thinking is that we explain that - the number of documents: that have been reviewed as I understa there are ~800" classified: documents .of which 112 : have been reviewed but that we have been unable to review - other because of a lack of access because of the security ’
70 - problem and the. delay in FBI allowing us to get them. Second, I was thinking about on the witnesses, a state- | ment like this, have interviewed blank number of witnesses, . blank number of whom -have testified or given statements to the Warren Commission and have since changed their testi- monéey:;or contend that they misrepresented their testimony based on duress, or fear or something like that. | ‘Have interviewed blank number of police officers or former intelligence agents who wish to give information they haa withheld because of whatever reason and what I am trying to do is to go in a direction of where you indicate the new things without getting bogged down in detail. I think it is true, we have a number of police officers intelligence officers who have come forward and who wish to give it. . / a think that gives some credibility--witnesses who have appeared before the Warren Commission who testi fied to one thing and who since have changed it has the aura of | : new ground. 7 ITam-tryingsto think of things that I can suggest for the report. | | The Chairman. I can appreciate that. I wonder if we might not have Mr. Tannenbaum, Mr. Lehner or both | respond to Mrs. Burke's suggestion in terms of whether the report might be able to help. Me. Lehner. Mr. Lehner. Sure. I think that we can do what has bee Docld: 32266786 Page 72
71 suggested but I do not think we could do it at much length in a public setting. I think when you talk about 45 minutes _I would have to do a little "soft shoe dance” in the middle of it. 1 think what Mrs. Burke has suggested is something that can be worked out and it can be done in outline form but - I would not want to. Mrs. Burke. I am talking about report language. I really have no& gotten to the public thing, just report language. a Mr. Lehner. I think that definitely can be worked out and can be done for the record as well. It has to be done ‘so that we are not, it doesn:it look as if we are intentionally giving information which an investigate reporter ushing his research and, using his intellect, can get to exact‘: people who were involved in this, that is something we have to be very careful about. | Obviously, we: will be discussing that before we report back to you next. | The Chahrman. Mr. Tannenbaum, do you want to respond. a Mr. Tanenbaum. If you wish, sir. | the Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Tannenbaum. I think that I agree with Mr. Finley-- I think that Mrs. Burke! s | suggestion should be done both in | the report and ina formal briefing, I think as far as -our investigation is concerned, you can just look) ‘at the briefilng DoclId: 322766736 Page 73
21 22 23 ms e e DoclId: 322766736 FP 45 memo which is now outside, and see the areas that we really hit --.each of you can do that yourself. I am prepared to do that and have something submitted to your consideration to show you just what we are talking about as far as a public briefing is concerned, because there really are new areas thathave not been touched upon and that is really one thing that perhaps we ought to do,let the ‘people know what new areas are as well. I am looking beyond really the members of the Congress but I think perhaps the people should know what:the new ardéas are that we | are involved” with. As far as the proposals concerning the public session, I re-emphasize something we stated about a * week and a half ago in the Capital room and that is that it is imper- ative it seems to me that the briefing memorandum and the substance of it be discussed with the leadership at the earliest possible opportunity because,as we are all well aware, if that is done, one “would be hard-pressed when seeing that memorandum. and its: contents, to voate agains this. Committee en: ‘substantive grounds. So I think that as far as. we are “concerned, we can ata public session not give up anything as far as: + investigate process will be if indeed we are continued, we will not be giving up anything and yet we will be able to outline the areas we are interested in. T4
10 Ju 20 21 23 26 2s 73 The Chairman. I wonder if I could pose a question to Mr. Fithian and to Mr. Edgar for their response. One of my major concerns here ‘having -ndeavored t to display to the Congress in the picture of disarray that they had of the Conmittee, that the Committee is now performing the function of a committee and rather that having our feeling that we have made some--we have gained some ground in that direction, the Congress now feels the Committee is back where it ought go bein terms of the Chairmanship . and the Committee, that we refocus attention of the media on - Staff, whether it be Mr. Sprague or whether it be Tannenbaum or Lehner, that we are once again putting statements of the STaffs, I wonder if we ‘couldnt work this out in a way where the. Committee in its report sets forth exactly what yo are talking about in terms of a public presentation but it is coming from the committee in terms of developing what has come to the Committee by way of investigation. That the Committee at public session discuss their report. (Mrs. Burke leaves.) It would seem to me that you are putting the focus where it ought to be rather than just on staff and being in the position where ‘the media once again runs away with the Staff situation. Mr. Fithian.: I'think we could do that in focus . on the Committee. . _ Docld: 322766736 Page 745
86 Mr. Fithian. I am not sure we should not say that. I would have to think about it, but we might want to consider sayint something to the effect that for a period of time we were denied access to the FBI's CIA materials or soemthing like that. Although that comes to sound like an apology for non-performance. | Mr. Edgar. I do not know. The Chairman. If the gentleman would yield to me, I thinkiit is important when we meet with the Rules | Committee, to at the outset recite for them the state in which this Committee - found itself up until a week ago when the Committee began to try to function as a committee. Becaupe I. think, it is important for them to realize that we had a “stage here of investigators who were unable to investigate. YOu had a staff unable to make telephone calls back to wit- nesses who were proffering testimony to this Committee. That you had.a staff that was unable to travel anywhere to - investigate. | | | I think this is. a part of what you have not done and why you have not. And that they have taken it to a total ap- praisal of where we are ‘now. . Mr. Dodd... I will agree. I just thought I understood in the questioning of Mr. Sprague referring to any reference to the. former chairman. or why this occurred. The Chairman. None. of that. Mr. Dodd. I would not want to see in the report at all- Docld:32266786 Page 88
10 Ju 12 @ ; 13 ss 14 “15 . 16 7 8 19 20 21 24 & os 87 I think the membership of the House is fully aware of the reasons and I think if we outline those reasons as for the Staff's inability to perform at a hundred ‘percent, everyone knows why, I do not think we need to go into the report to make any reference whatsoever to the former Chairman's actions, our actions as a response to his actions if just think we ought to leave that out of the report entirely. The Chairman. Sort of. as we discussed this morning that the Committee, the sense of the Committee was that we report hearings that began.withtthe present Chair' ss -Chair- manship ‘and sort of-proceedin that same way as regards the report. | Mr. Preyer. I agree that we never should mention any names or some personalities but I wondered if we do not at least want to make a point that things are different now from the circus that was portrayed earlier and that we | are now proceeding in an orderly businesslike way-—drop the hint that the charges about being a circus, but these no longer apply. That is one of the things we had to try to combat that everybody is going off in different directios but as a matter of fact, it was one person really going off in different directions but I think that atmos- phere of a circustis one of the hard things we have had to try to kick and I do nt think: there is. anything wrong with Docld: 32727667586 Page 39