JFK Assassination System Date: 10/19/20 Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY: HSCA RECORD NUMBER: — 180-10131-10330 RECORD SERIES: SECURITY CLASSIFIED TESTIMONY AGENCY FILENUMBER: 014728 Document Information ORIGINATOR: HSCA FROM: SCELSO, JOHN TO: TITLE: DATE: 05/16/1978 PAGES: 193 SUBJECTS : CIA, ASSOCIATION WITH OSWALD CIA, METHODOLOGY SCELSO, JOHN, TESTIMONY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO MEXICO OSWALD, LEE, RUSSIAN PERIOD, DEFECTION TO RUSSIA NOSENKO, YURI DOCUMENT TYPE: TRANSCRIPT CLASSIFICATION: — Unclassified RESTRICTIONS: 3 CURRENT STATUS:  Redact DATE OF LAST REVIEW: 01/01/2003 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Box 6 v9.1 1 Docld: 32277215 Page 1
/ ‘Pascione:amt 1-1 EXECUTIVE SESSION ied 3 TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978 ta U.S. House of Representatives, Subcommittee on the Assassina- tion of John F. Kennedy of the Select Committee on Assassinations, 20024 (202) S5u-24N5 MN | | | Washington, D.C. Y 3 . The Subconmittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:35 a.m. 1d | , in room 3370, House Annex No. 2, 2nd and D Streets, N.W. Mod . 2 Present: Michael Goldsmith and Dan Hardway. a = ° = = v7 ras = e S — a = oe S = nm a ~ = = na ~ = = ae] Sr nel Mr. Goldsmith. Miss Reporter, will you please swear in we " the witness? Oa The Reporter. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. Scelso. I do. to la 901784 DocId: 32277215 “Page 2
. a ra) ? a “ a > iW 2 g = 1] aa ‘ a “ =} . = 423 pad ow = = = ta n = 18 <= tw a = is a V7 Ss 18 70) = 19 =~ im . S 24. 21 aw OSS on ma 22 wf Ny, 23 2 a as 32277215 DoctId: tw ‘os in 20024 (202) S54-2345 ou Mr. Scelso? Mr. Mr. | | Mr. | | | | | Mr. Yes. Mr. Goldsmith. Have you been given a copy of the Commit-) tee rules and the Committee resolutions? Mr..Scelso. Yes. : Mr. Goldsmith. Have you had an opportunity to read Mr. | | | Rule Mr. Mr. Mr. _ Goldsmith.. to have counsel present TESTIMONY OF JOHN SCELSO Goldsmith. the record? Scelso. John Scelso. Scelso. S-c-e-l-s-o. Goldsmith. Scelso. I am retired. Where do you live? Goldsmith. Scelso. Abroad. Would you please state your name for Would you spell Scelso? What is your present occupation, Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Scelso, are you here testifying Scelso. Number 4? Scelso. Yes, I have. Goldsmith. Do you understand Scelso. Yes, I do. Goldsmith. Do you understand here today? Scelso. Yes. erpory fog Wy ee aio ¢ ; DLs! ALDESSON REFCRTING COMPS: before the Committee voluntarily and without subpoena? that rule? that. you have a right 901783 i } i {
Mr. Goldsmith. Do you waive that right? Mr, Scelso. Yes. I am an attorney myself. io Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand the Committee's rules tw that you have a right to receive a copy of. the. transcript of | the deposition statement that you are about to give today? . i se z= 5 2 | Mr. Scelso. Yes. 2 6h oe Mr. Goldsmith. Are you willing to waive that right/ = 7 | z | “Mr. Scelso. Yes, I waive that. : | Mr. Goldsmith. I gave you, a few minutes ago, a copy rz) yO 1 < ‘o | of a letter written by the Acting Director of Central Intelli-| : | ) gence, Mr. Carlucci, to this Committee. It is in the Commit- | Fa It; ' ; . | tee's record as Exhibit 94, JFK Exhibit 94. | @ g Have you had a chance to read that. letter? | : ; | Mr. Scelso. Yes. | = - Mr. Goldsmith. Do you understand it? : 7 | Mr. Scelso. I do. ! = 16: = a Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of the record, I would like | £ . | to explain to you that the Committee's mandate is to investi- | 5 ) | gate the assassination of President Kennedy in terms of who | : an ! killed the President. Was there a conspiracy? What was the. : : - performance of the investigative agencies, including the FBI | ARE and the CIA? Also to evaluate the work of the Warren @ aa ‘ : Commission. Do you understand that? .Mr. Scelso. Yes. Bp) Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Scelso, is it true that you were - : @ a ae | § i in ; { ho in Docld:32277215 Page 4
Doctd: 2 3 4 wt = 5 GN t a wn 6 ~ ~ , = a 7 — ~ = a = ™ s a oO 7 Ft ~ 10 Ss = fl n “ = 14 ir C = _— . Pas | = ta re Pa - = 15 S = té = Vy s i3 in = 19 ~ Cc a s . 20 —» f: fed 22 ne Nn 32277215 formerly employed by the Central Intelligence Agency? Mr. Scelso. Yes, I was. Mr. Goldsmith. For how many years were you so employed? | | Mr. Scelso. Twenty-three years. Mr. Goldsmith. In what capacity? | Mr. Scelso. I was an intelligence officer in the clan- | | t i ! | destine operations side of the organization. | Mr. Goldsmith. For all twenty-three years? Mr. Scelso. Yes, all twenty-three years. ! | Mr. Goldsmith. What position did you have with the Agency at the time you retired? i | | Mr. Scelso. At the time I retired, I was on the foreign | i intelligence staff in-charge of the operations branch respon- | . | sible for reviewing almost all of the foreign intelligence | | and counter-intelligence operations of the Agency and of formulating doctrine with the conduct of such operations. | | I was also a member of a panel which reviewed the total | programs of the Agency abroad and evaluated them. had quite another job. Mr. Goldsmith. That was my next. question. What was your position? Of course, at the time of the Kennedy assassination, I 1 Mr. Scelso. At the time of the Kennedy assassination, I was the chief of a branch responsible for operations in Mexico and Central America, down to and including Panama. Stee 001785 Gael ALDESSON REPORTING COMPANY
DoctlId: wm CO) 7 o wo = & ~ e) ™ t re) , wt fo) ~ ~ , > . a 7 ~ ™ a a 2 N ry fed roy Y a = 10 Ss =~ S = Tl oe) = = ia] y ad rt . = , a 13 ~ ~ 3 ta a e- 1s x i) 7 = Z = 13 = n \7 x = a) ad 19 ~ c ce = 20 32277215 wt i | Mr. Goldsmith. Which branch was that? Mr. Scelso. I think it was called WH-3, Western Hemis- phere 3. The designations change from time to time. Agency the testimony you are going to be giving here today? | i | Mr. Goldsmith. Have you discussed with anyone from the Mr. Scelso. Yes. I was acquainted, very briefly, with ‘as you have summarized it to me today. | the general thrust of the Committee's investigation, which is | I was made aware of the Nosenko case, and I borrowed | . Mr. Epstein's book and read it over the week-end. That is all. Mr Goldsmith. Did you have any involvement in the Nosenko case? Mr. Scelso. No. I knew of the Nosenko case in a very sketchy way. I knew that Nosenko had defected and that he had said that _Oswatd was not a Soviet agent. ! | | | I later heard that Nosenko was discovered to have been | dissembling, not being on the level. That is all. That _information was imparted to me by officers I do not recall in { | | no more than three sentences on the first occasion:and two | | sentences on the second occasion. © Mr. Goldsmith. Was there any particular reason, then, that you read the Nosenko book this week-end? Mr. Scekso. Just that I am very much interested in the Kennedy assassination investigation and it seemed to present a ‘Say ‘ Bb | CaeT 0017 Fage 6 ALDESSON REPORTING COMPANY
lot of new angles. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you think that you might be asked ; { t | | ‘Mr. Scelso. I. suspected that I might. 3 | questions about the Nosenko case? = s Incidentally, the book did raise several points in my 5 3 mind which I would like to discuss with you. | | g 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Before we do that, other than the general. 3 | briefing that the Agency gave you on the work of our Committee| ; | did anyone in. the Agency suggest to you that you should not . “6 not cooperate with us? | S ! ; g 1 | Mr. Scekso. No. | ¢ a Mr. Goldsmith. Did anyone inform you about the substance | . . | t oe 2 13 of other interviews or statements made under oath by Agency : ta employees to staff of this Committee? , : 7 Mr. Scelso. No, except that I was told in a discussion : 1é ofithe Nosenko case that certain people in the Agency had ! = 13 testified along one side or the other of the Nosenko case. E a | Mr. Goldsmith. You were not informed about the substance : 15 \° any statements made by any CIA person to this Committee? : : ca ; Mr. Scelso. No. | . a Mr. Goldsmith. Before we proceed, you indicated that | | r gal 22) you would like to give us some background information or com- | | | 2 ments on the Nosenko case from the book you have read. Why | do you not take this opportunity to do that now? 25 Mr. Scelso. Well, several points struck me. As you know, a ' : ‘ 4 a Lo. : Cad ew PP BA ts 7
1-7 I was in charge of the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy for the clandestine services of CIA, of nm . ‘which Mr. Helms was then the Chief. for the first one or two o de in hundreds of papers and a summary report, before I was relieved months,:and I‘ilearned a lot about the case at that time, read of this responsibility. In reading the book, the Epstein book, I noted a couple sy ‘of things. One is that. the Embassy officer in Moscow who au talked to Oswald when he arrived there and wanted to renounce ~o) his citizenship, a man named Schneider, was stated to be an officer of the Central Intelligence Agency. oan If this is true, I did not know it at the time of my | investigation and must conclude that the information was with- held from me, because I discussed the Oswald case with members; of the Soviet Branch at that time,. in the presence of an officer who had been in Moscow at the time of the Oswald defection. 1 i 13 | In this conversation where I was reading the State Depart+ \ | ment. reports written by the officer who had seen Oswald, I was: 400 7TH STREET, SoW ROPORTERS BUETDENG, HASHTHOTON, D.C. 20024 (202) $5%-~2945 a \ so || not told that this man was a CIA agent, CIA officer, or what- 2 4 * | t \ t -ever he was. | I do not know that he was. I only know that the book i | | coat § ( “a ied td | 23 1 said that he was. | | Secondly, the book states that Oswald had been in touch in Dallas or Houston or someplace with the CIA Office of SE PDET 901788 i oun | DocId:32277215 Bage 8 ALDESSON REPORTING COMPANY
Ww 3 4 4 wt Z 3 ™ i} a P ow ro) ~ ; cS o~ 7 _— x S a se ™ rey 3 a = {¢ 2 S = ft % . = © a '3 = = ta n = 13 = = ts S n Iv e 13 a = 19 x c S 70 oa eo ans ae fa 22 oot, 23 43 Docld: 32277215 sat) MER SR tA a oe rk ti ee Qobas 1-8 Operations Officer, Contacts Branch, named Moore -- MrO7Fo-r ee | Mr. Goldsmith. J. Walter Moore? | he Mr. Scelso. Something like that. | J. Walton Moore was in touch with deMohrenschielt. It asserts that deMohrenschielt claimed Moore had asked him to stay in touch with Oswald. | As I recall, I did not know that Moore had, any officer of the Central Intelligence Agency in the Texas area, had been| |. in touch with Lee Harvey Oswald at any time. } i Mr. Goldsmith. My recollection differs somewhat. My recollection of the book was that it said that Moore had been in touch with deMohrenschielt. I do not think it went into any detail that Moore had been in touch with Oswald. Mr. Scelso. I read the book very hurriedly, and I { | \ | | | thought they were the same party, however, I cannot swear to | that. I just wanted to say that I did not know that. there | had ever been any involvement between the domestic branch of the Central Intelligence Agency that was then called the Office of Operations and their officessaround the states, who interviewed American servicemen going abroad or returning | from abroad, was called the Contacts Branch. I did. not know that anyone in that branch had ever been in contact with the Oswald case, whether with him personally or by requesting people to elicit information from him, and so on. Mr. Goldsmith. Does that surprise you? (901789. Bage 9
1-9 | Mr. Scelso. Yes, because that should have shown up in | the traces and it was, of course, a vital factor in the inves- 3 | tigation. : | | Mr. Goldsmith. When I say does that surprise you, does | = | the fact that no officer from the domestic contacts division, N | . 5 5 |l or domestic contacts service, ever contacted Oswald? Does the g : fact of the absence of such a contact surprise you? | ~ a Mr. Scelso. No, it would not have surprised me, because | : | Oswald was a-security suspect and was a proper subject for : 10 | handling by the Office of Naval Intelligenee and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, not with the Central Intelligence WASHTHGTON , -< to Agency. — a A 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Are.youssaying, then, that it would not | GULELDING, rar be standard operating procedure for the Agency to attempt to in tn ( debrief a. returning defector? REPOAT VES Mr. Scelso. I do not know, really, because the operations Ws: a of the Soviet Branch was something that was very, very exclu- | wT, § & ‘a sively held which I, in my later positions, when I had to _ H . an ! . = | review all of the operations in the world and so on, very ~ i} : 1 é 20 | rarely found out.anything about it. | | - a} Mr. Goldsmith. For the record, I would. like to state | Yd] ay 72 that Dan Hardway has just walked into tne room. ; 23 Dan, this is Mr. Scelso. H f + Mr. Scelso. I know that positively I did not know that | Schneider was a CIA man, if he were; and as far as I recall -- 12 ey d tan are 90% eter RET , 001799 MPARY \ s . Docld:32277215 Page 10 © ALDERSON pti:
and I have never read any of the files since. I was relieved back in early 1964 of the responsibility for the investigation) -- t I do not recall anything about Moore or any CIA direct or 3 @ 4 indirect contact. . | | = § Mr. Goldsmith. When Oswald was in: Russia, he.worked at | Ms 6 | a radio factory for quite some time. Would that fact have S "j= the Agency more interested in interviewing him upon his S am return? 3 7 Mr. Scelso. Yes, it should have, normally -- and I am a i just conjecturing now; I do not actually know what the policy oO of the Office of Operations was about interviewing security VASHENCTON , suspects in the United States, an obvious suspect like an ex- defector. RULE ENG, Paes Mr. Goldsmith. Should there be a statement in Oswald's file that the reason he is not being interviewed or debriefed RUPORTE RS is that he would fall into the proper jurisdiction of Office | aMhe BY of Naval Intelligence or the FBI? “I ------ ee eee . | 1a | Mr. Scelso. On the basic of logic you would think so, ze | uw yo : = 19 | but I do not know anything at all about standard operating ¢ =| scene of the Office of Operations. - | i = ni Mr. Goldsmith. The Office of Operations -- Sn | Ep 22 | Mr. Scelso. -- was a branch of the Central Intelligence | i : 22 Agency which maintained offices around the United States and : briefed and debriefed Americans going abroad and returning das from abroad. (901791 a Docld: 32277215 Page 11 Meaehy
1-11 Mr. Goldsmith. That was now called the Domestic Contacts 1. Service? 2.0 oo enil | i | w i } | Mr. Scelso. Something like that. 4 Mr. Goldsmith. . You indicated that you were present at 3 az a conversation where there was a CIA officer present who was | F 7 in Moscow when Oswald was there? S 7 Mr. Scelso. Yes. | x a | ‘Mr. Goldsmith. Who was that officer? : a Mr. Scelso. Mr. Hugh Montgomery. | : 'g | Mr. Goldsmith. When did this conversation take place? | S g no ‘Mr. Scelso. I presume it was sometime within two months | 2 7 after the assassination. | | , r g 13 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Mr. Montgomery ever | n | | \ mo | had any contact with Oswald in Moscow? | Mr. Scelso. I do not know that, no. When I talked to him, he wondered whether he might not have been present at 1, REPORTEES MULE Sit x i one of the interviews. ; 13° Mr. Goldsmith. Which interview are you referring to? | : 7 Mr. Scelso. The interview of the State Department officer € 30 who wrote these reports we were going over with Lee Harvey Oswald, and then he reflected on this a minute and said no, he was not, because there were other defectors at the time, you know, “before or. afterwards. Mr. Goldsmith. Did Mr. Montgomery make any other com- t 901792 ments about the Oswald case? Docld:32277215 Page 12 ALDERSON RESOR
Mr. Scelso. No. | | | Mr. Goldsmith. You indicated that you had no knowledge 1 whether or not Mr. Schneider was a CIA officer; if he was would @ 4 | his file reflect that? . | z | Mr. Scelso. Oh, sure. | 5 5 | Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that his file would not | g "| indicate his active employment with the Agency? | 7 Mr. Scelso. His files in the State Department? , 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Let's talk first about his files with : | the CIA. | He Mr. Scelso.. I.do not know whether we would have a file | 2 | at the CIA. | Mr. Goldsmith. Let me run this hypothetical with you. Assume that a man works for the Central Intelligence Agency, 1949 for a year, and he leaves and joins the Foreign REPORTEPS BUPLDING, MASHTNGTON, c. JW $ | ie Service, becomes a Foreign Service Officer. Eventually he ' | gets assigned to work in the Soviet Union as a consular His CIA file, let's assume that during this time that i 300 7TH STREET, ‘a the man is working State Department. cover but he is also | 1 H 12 | officer. { i | t { | { \ and the fact that. he was put under State Department cover. 901793 ce 2 CIA. Would the CIA file necessarily reflect the fact that he | “SSS ol, , . ® Tne 22 } is still working for the Agency? 23 | Mr. Scelso. Oh, sure. There would be a file in the @ a4 | Office of Personnel that would show his entire CIA record j | Ore fF DESSON RES TINS COMPANY Docld: 32277215 Bage 13 ALDERSON REPOR eee
1-13. That file would probably be very closely held, even more’ closely held than ordinary files. ind t State Department cover, but still with the Agency, would that rye i | Mr. Goldsmith. Would that indication that. he is under be in’ the subject's main personnel file, or is it possible | that it would be in some other file? | Mr. Scelso. I really cannot answer that authoritatively, ;} because I never saw the file of any officer who was stationed | 20024 (202) S$5"-2345 oo in Moscow. The assignment of CIA officers to Moscow was D.C, ey sonething that was very elaborately prepared, planned in advance, and very closely held. UASHTNOTON, For example, I was once stationed. in an Embassy abroad \ | 1 i where there was an officer, CIA officer, who was just in to 2 . | go to. Moscow as his next assignment. I did not know that this | man was a CIA officer at all, even though I was, for a consid- REPORTCES BULEDEMS , : | | | | | | | | erable period, Acting Chief of the station. I did not know that thisi man, whom I saw occasionally and : © o — ~t who often I had occasion to deal with, he was a State Depart- ment Security Officer. I did not. know he was a CIA man, 308 7TH STREET, oO | “ee he got thrown out of Moscow later on. Mr. Goldsmith. Was this Mr. Angelli? Mr. Scelso. Yes. I think that was his name. ; } Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible for the Agency to work with i i i } @ “4 an officer overseas without there being any notation in the | officer's personnel file at CIA Headquarters -- in other words, ! : i 901794 Docld:32277215 Page 14
a personnel file would indicate, for example, that the employee retired back, say, in 1955. No connection whatsoever) Ww with the Agency after 1955, and for only a handful of people to know that actually the person is still CIA? an be : i Mr. Scelso. Certainly it. is possible. As I say, I do | not really know the mechanics and the administrative proce- | | dures that accompanies such an assignment. Mr. Goldsmith. Was there any aspect of the Oswald case 20024 (202) S5%-2345 vil a that struck you as unusual when you first had an opportunity D.C, ve) Qa Mr. Scelso. Do you mean after the assassination? | WASHTMNGTON, Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. Did you read the file any time before { 1 | | to first read through the file? ] | the assassination? BUTLDING, Mr. Scelso. No. KEPORTERS | i - Mr. Goldsmith. Then-after the assassination. i | Mr. Scelso. We only had a scan file on Oswald. until he | S.M, was involved in the assassination, merely the fact that he about. this in feports from the Navy and State Department, and 290 PTH STREET, ‘a had been in the Marine Corps and had deserted, and we learned | we had made a:record, I think, a think file of the communica | } tions on him from other government agencies. @ Ma 222 And of course it was the information that had come up { | from Mexico City a few weeks before the assassination. © nature, but even in light of what little material that was in’) aps 901795 Stone! t @ 24 | Mr. Goldsmith. I-understand the file was limited in a | if i Docld:32277215 Page 15 ALDESSON RESORTING COMBAAY
SECRET oo. i lit, was there anything in there that you found unusual? i i 4 Mr. Scelso. Not to me, because, for many years, I had | 5 | been dealing with cases like this and people like this and, | 4 | to me, it was just a typical defection case. | z 5 | You see, one of the other things I was in the Agency, | ~ é 5 early on, I was the first polygraph operator in the Agency S ‘7 |} and had. polygraphed some hundreds of security suspects. I | x  )atse had been a prisoner of war interrogator in World War II S s 3 | and interrogated some tens of thousands of Germans; and I 2 10 | also had been the counterespionage officer for the European = i : 11 | pivision back in the '50's and dealt with dozens of defection | S 12 | cases and things like that. | e : 13 So Oswald just seemed to me to be a small potatoes | z 14 | aefector. | g I Mr. Goldsmith. What would be the Agency's standard 7 1s | operating procedure with dealing with a defector that returns | ‘4 | Ante the country? : : ce Mr. Scelso. I do not know. By the time that defectors | a = | started coming back, I was no longer in a position to know i S 20 that kind of thing. People like that were handled, of course, sex." | primarily by the FBI or, if there were military defectors, : es! i px 2 | also by _their..branch of service. And I was overseas for | many years, from '52 to '62 -- wait a minute; '55 to '62 -- i iand no case like that had ever come to my attention. Ww tn i I was not. in a position where things came across my desk. - - SECRET 901796 Docld: 32277215 Page 16 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPAKY
SECRET ae Mr. Goldsmith. Oswald defected to the Soviet Union in October, 1959, and early November of '59, the CIA received wo . | cable or a copy of a cable from either the Office of Naval 4 | Intelligence or from the Department of State, I do not recall = § jexactly which. t \ ar) i The substance of the cable reported Oswald's visits to ~ - | x 7 is American Embassy in Moscow and indicated that Oswald =a S 3 j that he was going to defect and also that Oswald was going | cf || to offer military-related information to the Soviets. | = ‘6 | As I said, that cable came in at the beginning of November , e i “se, Under normal operating procedure, should that cable | = | Ps . ¥2 || have triggered the opening of a 201 file? | cS | = . a 13 Mr. Scelso. Again, I really cannot authoritatively speak > | | * _ about procedures. I would imagine so. | = a Mr. Goldsmith. In your opinion, would it be unusual for | = 4 x 's Oswald! s 201 file to have been opened over a year after the = ! rn a . - arrival of that cable? In other words, the file actually was | ae | Ss i383 : = not opened until December, 1960, over a year after the defec- | Sag | | 7 | Would you regard that as unusual? « i | 5 Uti : ra i Mr. Scelso. I cannot tell. I never concerned myself i\ iy f a x pith procedures like that.. When I came back from overseas, n> wu II was put into running a great big branch with revolutions ; ‘going day and night, and I had a large staff of extremely Be SaaS sh “ nw) tJ Ww in ‘capable people who concerned themselves with things like that. - SECRET eaniae iH og = lar t & ¥y Docld:32277215 Pate 17 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANL
SECRET “0 Mr. Goldsmith. We will get back to your work on this | case after the assassination in a while. What I would like mM 4 . do now is go over a series of cables and transcripts per- . @ 4 : taining to the period before the assassination. | z 5 | For the record, I would like to say that all of my ques= | r 6 [eon pertain to the time period of late 1963. | g : In 1963, you were Chief of the Division known as WH-3? x 3 Mr. Scelso. Branch. S : 3 Mr. Goldsmith. Branch known as WH-3? | zZ 16 1 Mr. Scelso. Yes. 2 HW Mr. Goldsmith. And what connection, if any, did you a | $ 12 [have with the Mexico City Station at that time? | @ : 13 ' “ME, Scelso. The Mexico City Station was directly under | ; 14 iny branch. I had a branch and a series of desks under that. | : 15 lone of them was the Mexico desk. _ z Is I was, first in 1962, I was Chief of the Mexico desk | ‘ 7 jsteens and then, a year later, I became Chief of.the Branch | : 8 |which included Mexico and several other countries. | : a E 9 | Mr. Goldsmith. Would the Chief of Station, Mexico City, S 8 |eor example, be a subordinate of yours? | cee Mr. Scelso. Ina sense, “yes, although he reported 4 iss ww mr \ / il ' | ! Le J Lo) on. Every one of the Station Chiefs abroad has three or four b> es idifferent roles. Ww tn Mr. Goldsmith. Was the manner in which he-reported SECRET _ a 101798 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY I i eieeeehy to the Division Chief.and to the. Director, and so i | | i Docld: 32277215 Page 13
DoctlId: ” a sj wn t S664 x | S 7 | City? z Se 23 ce 1 SF | a | . t H = 'C | would -- Ee S i = Wy a = 12) = a, | qe 13 | = ot i Ee 1s 4 2 i Ps | = is: > t nF e. 18} ih — { = 9 | ad c - | = 29 | | an anal a wee | 23 | hd es / Ww Gn 32277215 Page 19 SECRET | [consistent with the manner in which other station chiefs ! ; 2 [reported to headquarters? | Mr. Scelso. Yes. As a matter of fact, and conformance to procedures, and so on, was exemplary. | . 4 absolutely outstandingly managed station and its reporting | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Chief of Station, Mexico Mr. Scelso. Winston Scott. Mexico was an Mr. Goldsmith. I guess you have sort of done it, but of Winn Scott's competence as a Station Chief? Mr. Scelso. Winn Scott was, at that time -- probably, Mr. Goldsmith. Why would you say that he had the best in the world? Mr. Scelso. Because of the breadth and depth of their operations, both in the counter-intelligence field and the political action field, and in the espionage field... Mr. Goldsmith. What kind of personal relationship, if any, did you have with Mr. Scott? Mr. Scelso. A fine relationship. He was a great deal SECRET ALDESSON REPORTING COMPANY in view of my later experience surveying all of the stations | | indirectly -- but could you give us your impression | | { ' | | | in the world, .as good aX Station Chief as we had, and you | i] | j could fairly say that he had the best station in the world. J i 001799
SECRET was i | the greatest respect for him, and he also treated me with. 2 | ere greatest respect. 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Did you and Mr. Scott ever disagree? | 4 Mr. Scelso. During the course of the investigation, { ,) ! : a § jwhen letters and cables were flying thick and fast, there | t { 2 6 lwere a few professional points on which we disagreed, but they & 7 rose eve personal. in matters. They were merely differences | S of judgment and opinion. | 8 > | Mr. Goldsmith.. Do you know Herb Minnell? a | i z 0 | Mr. Scelso. The name is familiar to me, yes. at Mn i Mr. Goldsmith. I believe Mr. Minnell was case officer | pe | . 2 E Mexico City, at that time, who was in charge of Soviet | | = 13 || operations. can | Mr. Scelso.. That's right, yes. — ! . . ts i . | te 4 t ge l3 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know him? | z * | Mr. Scelso. I do know him, yes. “n 17 ; . ; i Mr. Goldsmith. Can you give us your opinion of his = i competence? 1 : = 194 . | ~ Mr. Scelso. I am looking back here now fifteen years c : ' S 29 | | and since I have retired in 1970, I have had next to no con- , 1 BSE ; tact with anybody in the Agency, especially abroad. I oors : wai 72 |remember Mr. Minnell was picked for this job as a very capable | | and experienced Soviet Operations officer. ® ® However -- in fact, he was personally approved by me, Ww tn f I believe -- butithe standard by which you judged Soviet SECRET 901800 ALDESSON REPORTING COMPANY > ee Docld: 32277215 Page 270
SECRET “1-20 i | operations officers was an extremely controversial matter. 2 | It was like asking Jerry Ford what he thinks of President 3 | Carter, all prejudices aside, what do you think of President 4 (Carter? It is a very difficult question to answer. 2 5 | He was certainly not an incompetent, but he was very \ i “ 4 | well thought of and he was the best man for the job. a | e 7 | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any opinion as to his honesty x 3 jan trustworthiness? Cc i 3 3 Mr. Scelso. I had never had any reason at all-to doubt ; a ~ !0 }anything about it. = nh! Mr. Goldsmith. What about Mr. Robert Shaw? > na : : ' < ‘ . { > 425 Mr. Scelso. Mr. Robert Shaw was in the Mexico station. «2 $ : \ = i i ® qe 13 {I recall him. He had been chief of a base up north, I > . : = 14 I'\believe. e 13 | And Shaw was a man whose honesty and loyalty I never = Is |eould question, although he and I disagreed on a number of “ My | Professional things. I do not recall Mr. Shaw as a particularly © 18 'l solid. individual. in ho _ 4 . a = "9 | Mx. Goldsmith. Did any of your disagreements with Mr. | 3 . . . a 20 | Shaw pertain to the Kennedy assassination? | \ wee Mr. Scelso. No | @ ey | Mr. Goldsmith. To the handling of the investigation by | the Mexico City station? @ _ | Mr. Scelso. No. I do not think I ever discussed that ‘with him, or with the other gentleman that you mentioned. SECRET anno ALDERSON REPORTING COM PANY Docld: 32277215 Page 21 °
i Mr. Goldsmith. How about Mr. David Phillips? i) Mr. Scelso. Mr. David Phillips, who has since become 3 |celated to me by marrying a relative of mine, was regarded by se ime, long before this marriage, as one of the absolutely out- ~ ’ = s jstanding officers of the Agency after I visited Mexico City 5 6 lana reviewed his operations soon afiter I took over the E ‘7 — desk. I regard this man as one of the most brilliant, g capable officers that I have ever known, and nothing has : 3 |nappened since then that has changed my judgment. 7 : He Mr. Goldsmith. What about your impression of his honesty) : 1 [integrity? | | = 12 | Mr. Scelso. Well, having known him through thick and | @ : 13 |thin in the Mexico station and when he was later head of | : 14 icuban operations, I. would give him the highest marks. I have | 3 is never known any man of greater. integrity, and few equal, | : 1s jpasea on my experiences | “ "| Mr. Goldsmith.- Have you known Mr. Phillips in his : : 18 |capacity as a propaganda officer ever sent out disinformation | = 4 Jor misinformation concerning the Kennedy Assassination? | = a Mr. Scelso. No, but I can conceive that it might have ! Sex." nappened-in the Mexico station. Perhaps they did, in their : ESe jpropagande efforts which were going full-blast all the time, jput in newspaper articles and so on to discredit somebody, nN wa |some foreign power, in connection with the operation. I do 2 ; ‘not believe that it was ever a policy to do so, but ‘they were ‘ - — SECRET 001802 i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY Docld: 32277215 Page 22 PEERSS ; Ww
SECRET (2-22 thing of his own creation and did not. really conform to the i | pretty much independent in formulating their propaganda. | ! @ 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know a woman named Ann Goodpasture? 3 Il Mr. Scelso. Yes, but not intimately, not well. I knew — . 4 |her when I visited the Mexico station. | E 5 | “Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know what her responsibilties were é in the Mexico City station? a 7! Mr. Scelso. She was sort of the personal assistant to & 3 | Winn Scott.. S | 3s F | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any opinion as to her? a 7 i = 1G ! Mrs Scelso. She wasvvery capable, extremly hardworking. = 11./A-very loyal person. As far as I know, she has the highest a ' “a ‘ ! =~ 72 | reputation -- recognizing the fact, of course, that there ° i oi : i = 4 | : ‘ ‘ . ty . @ a Is were people in the Mexico station who did. not like the Station = = ,_ | * ‘4 jChief and did not like any part of his hierarchy, because | ae ! i we i | ze 15 | inn Scott was a very hard taskmaster.. | < i | “ts | The one point on which I used to disagree with Winn = nA - i . i “Vs | Scott was his overworking his personnel and low-rating them | =! e their fitness reports. ie] { = 19 |} H 5 ‘| Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether.Mr. Scott! maintained = +" Ilan accurate and thorough system of files in the Mexico City a | Giana i ion? BSR | station | we Mr. Scelso,. His file system was legendary. It was a 23! | | system which the Agency had devised. It was really much more ho la | intensive and his officers had to spend an awful lot of time _ SECRET | | 001803 if ALDES EPORTING COMPANY Doclda: 32277215 Page 23 { it | | it {
SECRET 1-23 ft . i i @ ) | | | Mr. Goldsmith. I have heard it said by several that | | l keeping it up. i) e | Mrs Scott never. even threw out any piece of paper. Everything ya - . . | * was filed in the Mexico City Station. . an = 3 Do you think that is an accunate statement? w 6 | Mr. Scelso. I think that would be a figure of speech. | | S ’ |Z think people would say, meaning that he never discarded | e é jan information that came in, that he attempted to have ‘ ’ | everything incorporated in the files, but it is inevitable in | i - 4 5 0 | the intelligence business that you really cannot do this | = y | . = "1100 percent. | 2 | = 4 4 . ® C r2 Mr; Goldsmith. What would have happened to Mr. Scott's = = 613 : : - - . = jsites after his death, to the Mexico City statfén's files | =z is | | a jafter Mr. Scott's death? For example, would the files have 2 | been brought back? any I = 16 ~ Mr. Scelso. His personal files? ! “Is | . a | Mr. Goldsmith. Not his personal. files. The files of = j cig! = the Mexico City station. He had this enormous record-keeping | H i * i system and I would imagine -- I have no direct knowledge of | & | .. i a 29 | oo ; |this because I think.-« I retired before he did. I am not Pear. al at | | as sure of that, and I have no knowledge of that. Ordinarily, nos ay) 34 ; i aw “- e “ ihis retirement or death would have had no effect on it. 23 | L | However, files overseas may be purged from time to time | i { | because of lack of space. Often they are sorted out, and a ia ot of them sent home. That could have been. I have no SECRET “o1s0d _ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY Docld: 32277215 Page 24 ALDERSS Mean
SECRET j Ino knowledge. ined Mr. Goldsmith. What about Mr. Winn Scott's personal 3 | files? What would have happened to them? , 4 Mr. Scelso. I have no direct knowledge of that. z 6 § | Mr.GGoldsmith. Any indirect knowledge? i 2 6 | Mr. Scélso. No, I never heard a word about it. I only s  - | ~ [em -- I heard that Mr. Scott retired and that he went into o 2 | business of some kind in Mexico and he died of a heart attack.) Loa : : a i. Mr. Goldsmith. In 1963 when you were working in Head- ) | Zs 10 | = | pe oN | from the Mexico City station? < = 12) Mr. Scelso. Yes. quarters, I take it that you. frequently received communicator | | | { | | i I C ® - 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. In what form did those communications = | cake? 7 Mr. Scelso. Cables and dispatches. ; Is Mr. Goldsmith. Were you ever in contact with the Mexico “ a |aty station by telephone? | : ‘3 | Mr. Scelso. Rarely, extremely rarely. The division : E 9 | was very frequently in touch with him by telephone. The | s | asvaston chief and the deputy chief, over my violent objec- | AGE || | tions. . BEF 30 it © oN | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was the Division Chief? | x Mr. Scelso. Colonel J.C. King. | Ww tn Mr. Scelso. Mr. Rayford Herbert. SECRET ALDESSON REPORTING COMPANY 001805 | © Mr. Goldsmith. The Deputy Chéef? 3 | Docld: 32277215 Page 245
SECRET 1-28 Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Herbert is Deputy Chief of what? nm Mr. Goldsmith. On what occasion did they contact Mr. | . @ | Mr. Scelso. Western Hemisphere Division. | soe by telephone? E 5 Mr. Scelso. In times of crisis where particularly | * I no 4 — operations were going on, where defectors were ¢ 7 ome out or where there was some kind of a crisis with the | e a Mexican government. It used to make my hair stand on end. | 3 > | Mr.. Goldsmith. Why was that? a , i = 10 i Mr. Scelso. Because it was grossly insecure. | i / ae | 5 OW | Mr. Goldsmith. You indicate you received communications | a | ~ 12 | in the form of a cable or dispatch. S @ qe 1 Mr. Scelso. Yes. > | ° 14 Mr. Goldsmith. Under what citcumstances would the 2 15 | Mexico City Station send a cable instead of a dispatch? In | “ Is jother words, more specifically, ‘what would be the criteria for| i. - aN | sending a cable? What would be the criteria for sending a = 3 |dispatcn? ( a qo. i _ i 1 = . Mr. Scelso. Cables were sent if the information was | lof-such a nature that it had to be acted on within a day or Qt eS ia day and a half or two days. Dispatches took so long that Maz 39 | . ; © wR yon really could not take any kind of operational action | predicated on dispatch... You could take administrative ‘i @ | action. | . | ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY ro os w ia Doclda: 32277215 Page 276
SECRET i jcenter and they would, according to the code words which were | nm at the top, would assign the action to a certain desk branch 3 lor division and that component's name would be atthe top in a-certain position that indicated to everyone that that was Es 3 | the action. addressee and the others were information addressees. 4 4 | This was based on the code names which the sender of the | 5 7 telegram affixed to the top. | | 3 . Mr. Goldsmith. In part, the standard would determine | GF |vouta would receive and respond to a cable? . x z 10 i Mr. Scelso. Yes. e E i | Mr. Goldsmith. . Would the person receiving the cable 2 | = 12 in Headquarters make an independent decision, perhaps, that | ‘3 : : ® 5 13 the cable should go to someone higher up in the Agency? | Ss ; , : ia Mr. Scelso. Yes. Yes, he could, or he could try to : 13 jset the.action assigned to some different component. if he Ps | : is | felt he should not have action. : * ‘ : Mr. Gokdsmith. Under what circumstances would. the cable | 8 [0 to someone of a higher authority? : E a Mr. Scelso. Most cables did go on a reading board for | c ° on higher authority anyway. That is, on the reading boards of : coe the staff chiefs, the Counterintelligence Staff and Foreign : i | | ra 22 i r J a | Intelligence staf, and also the Director of the Office of | | Operations and his Deputy, almost all cables went to ‘them f Mr.. Goldsmith. Under what circumstances. would the DDO or SECRET 001808 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY { yt 4 i a9 | © as an informational matter. . ub ‘| i | 3 Docld: 32277215 Page 23
SECRET 1-20 , | his Deputy respond to the cables? wo Mr. Scelso. Intervene or exercise direction, and so assistant, we get a stack of cables every morning about this 3 || on? | | Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. . | = 5 | Mr. Scelso. If it were a matter of great importance, rs 6 | they might immediately call the Division or Branch and say S 7 jot over here, I want to talk to you about this. Frequently | & a j ehat happened. Or, if it were a matter of great importance, | 5 3 jn important difference of opinion with the station, the | : 0 |pivision or Branch would make sure that the DDO or his | : iB | peputy -~ I am using the present terminology; it was not | | 12 [in effect. then -- would sign off on the cable, to make sure | @ : 13 that he approved the action. | 14 That very often happened with Mexico, because we were | : 13 | dealing with all kinds of important matters involving American = is |actectors, American security suspects, risky operations and | a Vy is on. | : : aan Mr. Goldsmith. You made reference before to a reading 7 a E 9 lboara. What is a reading board? | 20 Mr. Scelso. The reading board of the DDO and his | ‘ 4 os yt ye whigh [Indicating] from all over the world, which he would 3) ; isimply get, his assistants read those. He had a couple of roe i aS nD i) 4 95 ar i i i i |administrative assistants who were really medium grade intel- : ; ligence officers with broad experience who would screen these » | | SECRET 001808 h ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY Docld: 32277215 Page 29 ‘| 4 ' i 1 i 4
SECRET 129 i things for him and bring things up for him. Then he was bombarded with telephone calls from the we 3 divisions all the time about this or that cable. I had the same thing when I was the Chief of Foreign Intelligence Es § | Operations. I used to read.a stack of cables that high | z 4 | [Indicating] every morning. That is why I can read these : 7 | things so fast. | : 3 Mr. Goldsmith. That is what you. referred to as a J vl reading boatfd? e i = 0 Mr. Scelso. Reading board, yes. = a | Now, the strange thing is that dispatches were not = = Ve ! similarly distributed. | iSo4 : i @ A 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. Why not? = ‘4 Mr. Scelso. Because it would have been impossible to ! : 3 : read them.. It was completely up to the desk officers who | bard | ' : ts | received dispatches whether they would write it on to senior | > : ig people, or the matters in them taken up by any senior = ; z ‘8 people. That is, the Branch Chief was responsible for see- | = 9 | ing that important dispatches -- sometimes things came in ec i . . = 20 with elaborate discussions of policy recommendations for new | eee priorities and So on, and I would then take this up with the a mr | © vx * ! senior officers in the division. : 23! | Mr. Goldsmith. Incidentially, how many branches were > ya there in the Western Hemisphere Division in 1963? Ww in Mr. Scelso. I think there were five or six. I am not “SECRET ootei0 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY Docld:32277215 Page 30
Doctld: SECRET 1-30 i sure. Then there was Cuba, which was a separate task corce, | 3 as I learned from the Senate Committee; I had forgotten it. : 3 n And later, Cuba came into the Division. 45 Mr. Goldsmith. Turning to Lee Harvey Oswald, when did | = 54 he first come to your attention? 5 é | Mr. Scelso. I first learned of Lée Harvey Oswald on | S 7 | the day of the assassination when his name was mentioned on | é 2 the radio and two minutes later an officer of my branch cane | S s 5 | running in and said, with the telegrams on Lee Harvey caved 2 10 | which we had sent, those telegrams which had gone out some | : I weeks before the assassination. | B 12 ! I had not noticed. I do not know whether -- I probably | : 13 | saw them, but I did not recollect them at that time. | é 1d Mr. Goldsmith. When the name Oswald first came to your 2 18 attention after the assassination, what. action, if any, did | ; Is you take? . . | 4 \7 Mr. Scelso. When it came in, I was not sitting in my , z 18 office. I was up in the Division front offices. I happened a Wo = 9 | to be up there on another matter when the thing came in over | 20 | the radio and within minutes, people from my office were up | “SE a there with the cables. And I do not know exactly what we | pe’ 2 did, but within minutes we had. notified the Division Chief w uw 1 t | | | and the DDP -- that is, the DDO. | > ee Mr. Goldsmith. How soon after the assassination did Ww tn i ‘ i ’ i | | | this officer come on with the Oswald cables? SECRET —— ootsit ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY ' + 32277215 Page 31
SECRET i Mr. Scelso. This was in the mid-afternoon of that day and I think that the assassination was on the radio, someone 1 had a little transistor radio going on with the news on it, wo and suddenly it came over and then in about a half hour after) ree frarenoearaniieiineevesr aera mrruenanrsaarcere eae managed all the records, handled all of the cables from E 5 | the assassination or fifteen minutes hater, then we were 5 7 all listening to this. S 7 | I do not know how long after the actual shooting it | % a | was that Oswald's name became known,» perhaps an hour, hour : ¢ { : 3 ) and a half. Within minutes after that, they were out with | S 10 | the cables in their hands.. | S i . 1 | Mr. Goldsmith. Within minutes of the name Oswald being | § 12 ! on the radio, an officer came in with the Oswald cables? | © : 12 Mr. Scelso. Yes. | z 14 | Mr. Goldsmith. Who was that officer? | 2 15 | Mr. Scelso. I believe it was Mrs. Charlotte Bustos | 2 i = 13 who was the, sort of the Major Domo of the Branch. She | 18 Mexico that dealt with security suspects, or asked for traces on security suspects. | 39 | . 7 _ Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ask her how she was able to | \ c ~ ; ; yal 300 7TH STRENT, SAAC obtain the Oswald cables so quickly? ] ! ! | \ i i ! 1 I ye =t i 5 ize) ‘ to . ! Mr. Scelso. No, I know where she would have gotten them. | i i i Mr. Goldsmith. At that time, did she also have a photo- + i | | We have copies of them right in our Branch. i | | . | graph of Oswald? i . SECRET 001812 i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY Docld: 32277215 Page 32 '
SECRET 1-32 “Mr. Scelso. No, I do not think so. i i i @ 2) Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Charlotte Bustos se 3 ever discovered a photograph of Oswald at CIA headquarters? { | | Mr. Scelso. I do not think so. | 2 5 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether she ever discovered 7 é | a photograph of someone whom’ she thought was Oswald? g 7 | Mr. Scelso. If you are talking about -- are. you talking * a | about the surveillance photo that was taken in front of the | e ; 3 : Embassy, the Russian Embassy? | : 19 | Mr. Goldsmith. We are going to get into that photograph' : 1 | Mr. Scelso. I do not remember any photograph of ovata | $ 12 | at that time, the day of the assassination, or even later. | © : i3 I do not recall that there ever was a photo of Oswald found | : 14 in Agency files. I do remember our asking -- we had to ask | E 13 | ONI for a photo, and so on. As far as I recall, they never z 7 sent us one. | “ 7 | It could be that later on»she found one, but I don't | | e 2 ig recall. : n i = 9 | Mr. Goldsmith. We are now going to start going through | = a a series of cables and other materials that the. Agency has | ccwec | provided for us, and for reference purposes, I am going to | © Fae 2 ! be referring to each piece of paper in the stack that I am | 23 | | particular number that. is stamped on it. The numbers are | I ! holding before me, I am going to be referring to it by the ( | | | assigned to eath particular page by the CIA. - These are all i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY Doclda: 32277215 Page 33 SECRET 901813,