178-10002.10279 JFK Assassination System Date: 8/31/201 Identification Form Agency Information AGENCY: ROCKCOM RECORD NUMBER:  178-10062-10279 * RECORD SERIES: © ASSASSINATION FILES AGENCY FILENUMBER: = A-I(J) CORRESPONDENCE--ASSASSINATIONS Document Information ORIGINATOR: ROCKEFELLER COMMISSION FROM: TO: TITLE: DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM STURBITTS DATE: 04/16/1975 PAGES: 4 SUBJECTS : ANTI-CASTRO ACTIVITIES CIA STURBITTS, WILLIAM FITZGERALD, DESMOND KENNEDY, ROBERT CUBAN EXILES DOCUMENT TYPE: DEPOSITION CLASSIFICATION : — Secret RESTRICTIONS: 1A; 1B; 1C CURRENT STATUS: — Redact DATE OF LAST REVIEW: = 02/13/2001 OPENING CRITERIA : COMMENTS : Selected pages from deposition. Full document is number 1781000210091. v9] | HW 50955 Docld: 322745454 Page i
Deposition of | | wiitiam C. Sturbitts Phone {Arca 202} 244-5000 Examination by Counsel For the Commission 2 i (AFTERNOON SESSION Page 58) William C. Sturbitts | 178-10002-10091 | 178-10002-10215 WARD & PAUL ome & 178-10002-10279 21 ! i 23 | 24 310 Burst Stecet, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 20 HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Fage 2 (Resumed) t SECRET 58 Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
ee | SECRET t | PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON CIA ACTIVITIES - Phone {Ares 202) 544-6000 |} 7a = 4 ‘ Langley, Virginia’ ° Wednesday, April 16, 1975 6 Deposition of WILLIAM C. STURBITTS, called for ; i examination by ‘Counsel for the Commission on CIA Activities, 8 the witness being duly sworn by thomas C. Hogan, a Notary 3 i Public in and for the State of Virginia, in the offices of the it / Central Intelligence Agency, Langley, Virginia, at 9:50 i. | o'clock a.m., on Wednesday, April 16, 1975, the proceedings 3 ya: 3 +6 ' being taken down in stenotype by Ruth G. MecClenning, and < 4 * 2 ) 5 te | transcribed under her direction. Fi ye 3 ae APPEARANCES: =o On behalf of the Commission: 16 | GEORGE MANFREDI, ESQ., i ROBERT B. OLSEN, ESQ. 1lé -_ = = ~ ig ~ la] 3 5 2c 7 < : \ 3 aL: , z 22 ' \ uh ' ae eae rere wv 72 } 24 Photocopy from 5 Gerald Ford Library > 2s H¥ 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 3 SECRET
Phone {Area 202) 444-6000 Crt an WARD & PALL 25 24 DEO Biest Street, 3.E., Washingtena, D.C. 20003 21 22° 25 Thereupon, called as SECRET , PROCEEDINGS |, bine aided ao] WILLIAM C. STURBITTS, a witness by Counsel for the Commission on.CIA Activities, and having been first duly sworn by the Notary Public, was examined and testified as follows: | Q record? A Q weeks ago ' Waiver"? A Q A EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION BY MR. MANFREDI: Mr. Sturbitts, will you state your full name for the William C. Sturbitts. Mr. Sturbitts, do vou recall when we spoke some you signed a document entitled, "Advice and Right. You’ understand that document is still in effect? Sure. Mr. Sturbitts, by whom are you currently employed? You mean the Agency or -~- That is right. Central Intelligence Agency. . And what is your current position with the Agency? I am a Special Assistant, Latin America, for Economic Intelligence Collection and Operations. Q And would you briefly review for me the history of HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 4 SECRET Areagr] pio pyeuag wo Adosojoug
t to Crt Phane (Ares 202) 544-6000 a> WAHO & PAUL t-! ~2 410 btrst Street, S.£., Wostingtan, 0.0. 20005 HY 50955 Docld: oe “ee BEE 3 your employment with the Agency? A When I first came in I was in the Intelligence Directorate for approximately ten years and I was put on specia which is now the Directorate of Operations. nO wt A A 9 What year were you put on that detail? I guess it was 1964, January, I believe. And what did that detail involve? Cuban operations, economic warfare. And how lond were you on that detail? I was in the Cuban operations for nine years. Between 1964 and. 1973? (Nods in affirmative.) And in 1973 did you assume your current position? Yes, January. Now, while you were on special detail -- to the DOD? Yes. Were you stationed in Washington? Yes. _ And did you commute with some frequency to Miami? Yes. Were your activities in Miami in any way connected with the operations of the Miami Station? A In some way. My responsibilities were worldwide. I took temporary duty predominantly in Europe, and then Miami. c Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library 39975454 Page 5
oa Puone (Ares 202} 544-6000 tol oO WARD & PAUL 22 410 Fisst Steeei, S.E., Wasnington, D.C. 26003 ae) cn HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 6 20-| 21: ‘i 1 | 1 i 4 ty | I i fi i iH Hi 4 if SECRET | . Most of my operations were run out of Europe. 9 Run out of -- A Europe. Some were run cut of Miami but the big ones were run out of Europe. Q Well, in the course of your activities with respect to Cuba did you have occasion to become familiar with the operations of the Miami base? A Yes. Q And the situation in the Cuban community in Miami? A Yes, sir. Q During the nine years you were with DDO's Cuban operations, who was ~~ who were the chiefs of the Miami Station? A . I think in 1963 Ted Shackley was the Chief and he was followed by -~- I can't think of his name. I should know it. Well, I will come back to that. Then, the next Chief of Station was Paul Henze. 9 What years was he Chief? A I think ‘Paul was there about a year and a half. He Let's left in 1968 when we reduced the size of the Station. say Henze was there from 1966 to 1968. And then Jake Esterlind. He was Chief of Station from 1968 to 1973. Q Now, what was the formal title of the group to which you were assigned for the 9-year period? A Well, when I first came in it was known as the Photocopy f SECRET Gerald Ford Library
oaaed Prone {Ares 202) 644-0000 Crt rau) WARIO & BAC ke fo i oA cn +3 Dpood eal Wastiryhon, (0, 24 ALO Poesk Steset, SEL, HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 7 ae: ao. sECRET Special Activities Staff. It was headed by Desmond Fitzgerald. And then, I believe after that it became the Cuban Operations Group. Q Mow, was this a special group within the DDO or was it attached to one of the area divisions? A NO. called Task Force W which Itty that -- when Harvey left and Fitzgerald took over, Following the Bay of Pigs, they created a thing was headed by Bill Harvey. And , he went to®hie® of<station,| | it became. Special Activities Staff. It wasn't attached to anything except -- it reported to the Deputy Director, Plans. Q And that was Mr. Karamessines? A Yes. was first created. Helms was DDP at that time. 9) And Task Force W was created immediately Bay of Pigs? - A Well, not immediately. I think sometime in the Bay of Pigs was in April. I think this was September, something like that, 1961. Q And that subsequently became the Special Staff? A Well, it was Helms at that time back when rt after the around ~- ereated in Activities Special Activities Staff and consequently became the Cuban Operations Group. As the Cuban Operations Group it went back into the Western Hemisphere Division. And what was the date of that reorganization? Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library \
Phone (Aree 202) 544-4000 WAH ck PAU 20003 ViG trast Sicet, $i, Waskicgtoa, 2.0. i Col H#> nH ie) ke nf bo cn $4 > wt IKE f . 6 A Well, let's see. I would say that was probably around 1965 because Fitzgerald then became Chief, W.H., and then | later DDP. Q Now, Mr.Harvey -- do you recall what position Mr. | Harvey held after he left Task Force W? A Yes. He was#€hief of Station| _| Q And is he still with the Agency? oO | A Oh, no. He retired a long time ago. Q Do you Know wnere he lives at the present time? | A Frankly, I don't. I have an idea where he lives. He went to work for a friend cf mine who had a law firm. Harvey is a lawyer. Q Indianapolis area? A Yes, some olace around there. It is in the midwest, Indiana. Q What was the role that was assigned to Task Force W? A It was’the overall Cuban operations. lished? A Well, I think they had a forward operatio-s base down there about 1960 which was small, ‘in Coral: Gables. | i | 2 Did the Miami -- when was the Miami Station estab~ | | | | Q This was, then, orior to the Bay of Pigs? | | ae A Oh, ves. Now, in addition to Task Force W, was the Miami | ee { Photocopy from SEC RET Gerald Ford Library ; | a) HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 6
SECRET , B 8 4 ; ; g | Station running any operations against Cuba? a i A You mean prior to. the Bay of Pigs? : \ Q Yes. A I really don't know. It was a small -- it was a | forward base and it was more or less as I recall, a support type { - 1@] . thing. 7) | ' 9 Well, after the Bay of Pigs when Task Force W was 8 7 established, did it have sole responsibility for Cuban 9 F “ = operations? 10° A Yes. | i Lis Q Or was that shared with the Miami base, Miami Q 4 | 2 12 Station? | < : 3 +e A No. The Miami Station was under Task Force W. | 3 is Q All right. Would that also be true of the Special | LS Activities Staff, the Cuban Operations Group? ! TA es oad A Right, Ce 1 | i LC: Q I understand that. When were Cuban operations termi- | | 2 19 nated? ; | : 20 . A At the Station? Let's see. Sternfield went down | 3 21° there in 1972. It was during fiscal year '72. think it was | 3 22 in early 1973. It was a gradual reduction. | 5 i 5 24 2 : 26 3 i : Photocop fr : SEC RET Gerald Ford Library . ! HWW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 9
SECRET a 8 1 Ww _ 5 y wa a 2 an] Ck a 2 - < o 2 5 6 a Q Mr.Sturbitts, in the last couple of weeks you may os ; ; 4 8 * have seen some allegations in the press about possible assassina- 9 : bign attempts that have been mounted or alleged assassination i Right. | 2 12 Q ~~ against Fidel Castro. In the course of your | 13 | activities with respect to Cuba, did you ever learn of any such! 5 14° attempts? | 16: A Well, let me answer it this way. I wouldn't say | : | 16 | attempts. I know there was discussion. "Attempts" is too | i? : strong a word. | 18 Q Well, can you place in time your first knowledge of 2 19: any such discussions? : 20. A Well, the first knowledge I had of any discussions, : 21 | t was on TDY and this was October,November, 1963, with Fitzgeraild = 4 3 22 | in | and I knew that ne was going to meet -- let me put | : 23 | it another way. I had overheard that discussions were going on ; 24 with a member of Castro's military but that he wanted, as - : 25 I recall, he wanted some British -- I mean Belgian rifles and HY 50355 DocId: 32275454 Page 10 1°" attempts that have been mounted -- ( Photoco f SECRET Gerald Ford Library
SECRET o | i] ° : $ 1 £ a telescopic sight. i yl Q Who wanted them? g i: A This military guy that was in Fidel's -- I think i 4 at one time he was a commandante. Now, I knew that was going ~ on. I didn't participate in it because I was there for another | 6. | reason. And I know that subsequent to that time that Fitzgerald 7 | met with him again and as I recall, as the personal representa-| 8 . . , __, | : tive of the Attorney General, Bobby Kennedy. i 9 . . . | I provided all those files. There are 19 volumes that 7 L [an * . ~ we gave to your seople. But I don't know who was reviewing aa them. . I think Belin was going to do it himself. | ’ 3 tes Q Yes. He is. He is doing it himself. | bn : Ie You said there were 19 volumes of documents with ~ . t 3 = respect to this. | oa OA 19 files, manila. | -* 9 All having to do with possible assassination? 1 A All having to do with this whole time period and -- | 1€- can we go off the record for a minute? 2 19 (Discussion off-the record.) E 20 BY MR. MANFREDI: ! g el Q The first knowledge of such conversations that you | E = a2". had, I take it you obtained on a trip to Europe with Mr. ta i a ee i Z £5 > Fitzgerald? A a z ae .. A t simply overheard it, that is right. = : ; * 25 Q ‘And who were the parties to the conversation you over SE C QET Photocopy from 7 | Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 11 Le
Phone {Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAU AIO tinet Street, SEL, Wastingtan, D.C, 20003 WW 50955 cod > Hn OO i th i! i no io) at + ' ! t Docld: 32275454 Page i2 aod Ser es TREE 8 Lu | heard? A A fellow named Néstor Sanchez. Q And Mr. Fitzgerald? A Yes, and I really can't recall some of the other people. We were -- we nad just movea the Station at that time, and we felt that it was probably bugged, so all conversations took place -- we waiked around the garden and tyat type of thing, and, you know, I was walking with somebody, somebody was in front of me, and you just overhear conversations. A Yes. Q I see. Mr. Sanchez ~~ was he a member of the military? A No witty. Sanchez was.in the Special Activities Staff. He was stationed in Washington. And he was in contact with Cuban military-;type. Q Was it your understanding that the Agency had receive instructions with respect to this activity from another component of the Government? A Well, let me put it this way. I don't know whether they received instructions. [I have to assume, and I am pretty positive, that this was a result of a Special Group decision. ; . And at this time vou have to remember that Bobby Kennedy was | | overseeing this deal, sresumably for his brother, and he was SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
SECKE! 1d c o fa) 5 : 3 ~ part of that Special Group. He called the meetings, he presided a a | -he did a number of things. | é 3S i . 3 * Q Were there any other occasions that you can recall in which the possibility or the subject of assassination of ~ Fidel Castro was discussed? c : A No, not really. Q You referred to this as the first occasion. | ~ A This is the first -- | . Q Was there a second? ~~ A -~ the first time I knew about it or éven heard it | ! x2 . | ~~ discussed. | z Le Q Well, prior to the investigation that is currently | z | z __ a : = underway -- I am referring now to our Commission's investigation = { 3 a -- were there any other occasions in which this subject came | “~ to your attention after this discussion in the garden in | 1” ’ : . : : ~ A The only other thing that came to my attention was | se that the decision was made not to provide him with this sight | 2 = that he wanted. “hether that is right or wrong, I don't know, J aC but that is what I was told. | S 5 ae 9) When did vou learn that? | 2 On ‘ ~ . ~ : | = Ae . AR Oh, I would assume in -- must have been early 1964, a - - | < ze around February, something like that. 3 as 9 Off the record. ° ae (Discussion off the record.) | , Photocopy from SEC RET ; Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 DBocld: 32275454 Page 13
ag@ Hie us BM Hes 8 12 3 7 Z ~ MR. MANFREDI:~ On the record. é z 2: a BY MR. MANFREDI: = “4 , 2 Mr. Sturbitts, are you familiar with a gentleman by * = _ the name of Frank Sturgis? “ A Indeed. © Q Is your Zamiliarity based on what you have read in ° 4 the press? So: A No. It is what is contained in the files. G : ° Q Have you caused a search to be made of CIA files, Tb particularly the files or the Western Hemisphere Division, +“~ in an attempt to determine whether Mr. Sturgis ever had any 2 Le 4 connection with the Agency? a le. AT have. : ' 3 a a) What were the results of that search? ~o :; A Absolutely no connection, never has been. BS Q When we talk about connection, are we talking about i? . an employment relationship? Lé A That is what I am speaking of. 2 19 re) Was Mr.Sturgis ever an independent contractor of : . ; G 20. the Agency? 2 21 A No. 2 22° 6) Was he ever a contract employee? : a as 3 ae A No. a a z4 2 Was he ever a reaular employee of the Agency? 7 25. A No. - Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 DBocld: 32275454 Page 14 ec er ere,
Phout (Area 202) 544-6000 + Watt 2 PALE 20063 Wosinnigtoun, Ol6. Ss... AIO Tiavst Steces, HY 50955 SECRET a3 * Q Was he ever hired to do any piecework for the i Agency? , | - i “ : A Not to my knowledge. * Q De you know whether or not Mr. Sturgis ever partici- S pated in any type of paramilitary or other operation against : 6 Cuba? | 7 a . . A On his own behalf he did, not on behalf of this C Agency. | 9 ; 9 How did vou learn of those operations? | io A Through the newspaper. And through FBI reports. | 24 Q Now, are these recent FBI reports? 12 A Oh, no. These go back -- I know at one time, the 13 | thing that comes to mind, I think he made a leaflet drop | -3 over Cuba and this was subsequently reported in the press and ee by the Bureau office in Miami. | 26 Q Do you know who financed his activities? 27 A I have no idea. | 38 Q Is it possible that Mr. Sturgis’ activities were | 29° indirectly financed by the Agency through -- 9 | £0 | A I don't see how. Prank Sturgis is a soldier of — ; . Qi | fortune: has been. He has constantly tried to associate himsel i 22 | with the Agencv. When I went through his file they wanted me | 25. to classify the file and the way I classified it was “don't 24 destroy it, he is an intelligence nuisance." : 25 | Q Off che record. " Photocopy from SEC REL Gerald Ford Library Decld: 32275454 Page 15
Furcate GA Ca TO) baa-oOod Wareeta ah PALES, 20004 Vit b net Sreck, SEL, Wostauyton, $00. HW 50955 On OD ed te ay js Cl 4d f4 om ou }4 Ee f=! 1] Cr) to Oo ae FA to a a) Cl oA raw} cn DEVE! | 14 (Discussion off the record.) MR. MANFREDI: On the record. BY MR. MANFREDI: Q . Have you caused the Agency records with respect to Mri, Sturgis to be assembled in any one location? A Yes. Thave custody of them. Q And wnat is the volume of that material? . A As I recail, there are five volumes. Your Committee | called for them the other day after the article in the paper, I guess it was last Saturday. They called for them Monday and | they returned them Monday afternoon. Q De you know who examined those files? A No, I don't. j Q You indicated a moment ago that Mr. Sturgis contacts |! the DCD office in Miami with some frequency, is that correct? A Well, not great frequency but he does with tidbits of so-called information. { Q Is this information limited to narcotics, alleged narcotics traffic? A Recently it has been. Q Has Mr. Sturgis been encouraged by the DCD office in Miami? A Mr. Sturgis has been told by the DCD office in Miami | to take his information to the Drug Enforcement Agency or the FBI..: . Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library | Docld:32275454 Page 16
9 4 Plas (Area 202) 949-6006 Gl > rely th 163) . Warts & PAUL 20005 Washunghon, 0 €. VEG taset Street, & 3 nN two f> fl nO tn HY 50955 Bocld ag SHE Go Q Do you know whether or not they consider him an established contact? A No manner. Q Do they have any -- do they periodically seek to collect information from Mr. Sturgis? A I can't speak to that but the records that we have don't reflect.anything like that. Before they would contact somebody in that context, knowing that there is a 201 file on Sturgis, they would have to coordinate with the Latin American Division before they did anything since we do hold the file. Q Would you briefly explain what a 201 file is? A A 201 file is a personnel file. it consists of any information relating to an individual appearing in the press as a result of other agency reporting and that type of thing. Q Personnel or personality file? A Personality file, I should say. Excuse me. Q Do you know whether or not there is any connection or relationship between Eugenio Martinez and Mr. Sturgis? Well, ZI will say this. Obviously, they do know a A each other. They have to know each other from their days in Cuba. 9) Do you know whether or not Mr. Sturgis ever partici- ' pated with Martinez in raids against Cuba? i A No. As £ recall, we employed Martinez around 1961, } SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 132275454 Page 17
SEGRE ) 16 FE i ¢ ; I guess, and he was in our maritime activities. He was a 3 2} ; . ae gs ; & | boat captain eventualiy. And he did participate in infiltrations < S| . . : : : z and exfiltrations and perhaps one cr two raids, hit and run, i sabotage-type actions against Cuba. Sturgis never engaged in “ 3 any of these things. He never did it for us nor did he ever 64 2. : . * do it on any of our boats, planes, or -~ anything that belongs ' to the Agency. od | 9 When Martinez would run such an operation or captain | i ¥ | a boat on such an operation, would he be charged with putting 1 ““ = together his own crew? ; 13 ‘ 22 | A No. He had an assigned crew and every boat had a iF . . i : le | Case Officer operating either out of the -- probably out of’ : ae} the Miami Station. Sometimes I would assume that we did have 3 tel some people in the Key West base. But he, Martinez, would receive *5 | his instructions and briefings from his Case Officer. ~6 Q Sa it is likely that he could have brought Sturgis | it ‘| along on any of these operations? ‘ | Le ii A Absolutely unlikely. Oh, the guy whose name I was: ‘ = , - 29 trying. to think of, Chief of Staticn, John Dimmer. g | * sh ; . . 20 i Q And that would be.for a period of time between = £1. | Shackley and Henze? 3 28 || A Yes. | - | . | 3 26 Q 1964 to 1966? | 2 LS i} A Something like that. | i | - oO Would vou describe briefly for me the nature of the | rau) an Photocopy from SECRET . Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 18
Pia (Area 202) S44 Goue Gis a2 i a> on O 6 p— Cx WARES a Aue, f- if } + Cyt o>) t- HOOG EL oe Waediigho, 6b ul, cere | tabeeeud Phee doosey ae) 24° 23" ih ii i 1 i! SEUKE! - activities conducted by the Special Activities Staff during your -- and subsequently the Cuban Operations Group during your 9-year tenure with those groups. A Well, there was -- it was an across-the-board intelligence operation consisting of collection of foreign positive intelligence, counterintelligence, paramilitary activities, covert action, economic activities. That is about the breadth of the thing. 2 A Q Now, these were all conducted through the DDO? Right. Now, let's speak for a moment about «he paramilitary operations. Were these operations run out of southern Florida? 2) a Right. And in particular out of the Miami Station? Yes. Were there any other CIA facilities in that area of the country that participated in these activities? A Q that were Not to my knowledge, _ were there any southern harbors other than Miami used in these activities? i .,said, we did have al ) 2 Nere there any other bases in that area of the country that were utilized in these operations? SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Doclid: 322375454 Page 19
3 1. z ‘ 2 ‘ 5 7 3 8B 4 = . ab 16 ? 18 & dl . i9 i : 20 | = It = i z oe i : 24 : ! i! ij HY 50955 Docld: 322375454 Page 20 a Hi Sos OS ie 18 A Well, not that I would call a base. We did have training facilities for the UDT teams. te fe) What is a UDT team? A Underwater demolition. Q Where were those bases located? A < frankly don't know. | | Fo Therree were a number of sites. I really can't recall them. Q Were there any other sites within the United States in which paramilitary training was conducted, for people oarticipating in these activities? A “Not ta my knowledge. e) Where were these people trained? A What do you mean? Q Well, Cubans who participated in these activities. A We trained them at these places we had | fF Now, there also ~~ t the Domestic Training Station. Q Where is that located? A That is down in 2 Were any CIA personnel actually involved in these raids? . | A Occasionally, I would think that -- you have got to understand at this time that we hag a great many contract independent contractors and this type of thing. Photoc fi ) EC R ET Gerald Ford Library employees, some of them were brought up here and train | i | | i | | |
3 ‘ | 3 ai : ~ { 3 a: tas : ts | z ' Most of the paramilitary operations and the training was } 3 . a 1 conducted by the Special Operations Group which is another > | entity of the -- | ” a Q DDO? ; A DDO. é tae - , Q Now, the facilities that we have been talking about, - training facilities, were manned, then, by the Special . Operations Group, or at least supervised by the Special ar Operations. Group, is that correct? ie A Nell, supervised, ves, and I would think that probabil ++ some of the training was given by their people. The Domestic | ! | : +e Training Station is under the Office of Training and -- < . . i * is would think that in the paramilitary field that the SoG 3 i probably starf the training facility with their people who have as . . . fae ; . . i ~¥ the expertise in paramilitary operations. | t f 1 ‘ UJ 2 “~~ 26 2 Now, were the people that were being trained at | ; | 20 these facilities basically Cuban refugees? 1é A Yes. 2 i? Q And at the outset I take it not many of those people i = ~ ~ f é 2 20 were American citizens? 2k A No. z 22. 2 Or had become American citizens. | 3 . . ~ as A t would assume a great many have. a . 3 24 | 2 By this time. Z = ; | + 25. A By this time, yes. Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library i | aa? lar “ous ES SECRET HY 50955 Docld: 322375454 Page 21
bh Prune (Arce 202) 544-0000 Cel Ay) cn Wiivte KP Rad ts Col nN fe ABs te Qi 2OOD 3 Wrastiinpieen, fa €. gs u., 24 VLD et Saas, 25 HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 22 | SEGKE! 20 a At the present time, how large is that Cuban — in Miami? Do you have any idea? A Well, it is extremely large. I would think it is probabiy <~ I was trying to think. I would say up towards a military people. 1?) You spoke about paramilitary operations and covert action. How do you distinguish between those two categories of activities? A Well, actually one can fall into the other. The oaramilitary could fall into covert action but in those days we did distinguish somewhat. A lot of the covert action was media placement. We had a number of operations at ~- legali- type operations, harassment operations. For instance, Fidel seized a great many art treasures. and in particular he had a Napoleonic collection which was supposed to be the finest in the world that he sold to dealers in Europe. He had paintings - that. were immensely valuable that he tried to have auctioned in London and the London auctioneer would not accept them | because he obviously didn't have clear title to them. He was -~- they were stolen,in the eyes of the auctioneer. He was forced to auction them in: Toronto, Canada. We ran legal operations, got the owners and had them hire attorneys and bring them to court and this type of thing. He seized these race horses. He tried to peddle them in Evrope and up in Canada. “fe ran opposition against that bo) E C 4 ET . Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library I
ee] Phone (Area 202) 544-6066 trl Ww cn fl n> fa! tn WARD kb PA fea fe 20005 o Wastiuinigharn, Ga. ea) SiG boest Sucet, ob no i> a) cn HY 50955 Docld: SECRET oo - type of thing. 5? i ) These were what you considered to be covert operation ‘ A Yes, covert action. : I i) Now, this is what you were referring to, legal~ type operations? A Yes. 9 You used legal process to harass Castro. F EN Yes. . , 9 What other types of harassment activities did you run that would fall under this covert action category? A Well -- " . O Would economic warfare be ~-- That was sort of something separate unto itself. 4 aes This was -- the economic warfare aspect of this thing was a decision of the Special Group to enforce an economic blockade. 3 vihat special group is that? A Tt is now called the Forty Committee. 9 Is that 302 Committee? A Well, it was a 302 at one time, too. First of all, tt was called the Special Group, CI, Counterinsurgency. Then / dt went to the 302 and then it had another name in between | ¢here and now it is the Forty Committee. 2 All right. We will return to that a little bit later, put what other types of harassment were you running against Castro -- , Photocopy from SEC REL Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 230
Phone (Arva 202) 544-6000 Waits & PAWL 2000 3 ALO beeot Seer, S-E., Washeiegteae, 0 00. f- ND tal eS on cA ~3 i yo te a3 Ht C7 Pe] he oe | A This is what I was trying to think of. Q ~~ that would be considered covert action? Well, as I say, a lot of propaganda, press placement, media placement. ‘tt has been so long ago [I really don't remember. I know we had a number of things going against him. Ye used suasion, moral suasion, otherwise. We did some extra-legal things. We tried to get to his sources of supply, particularly when they were countries that we had treaties this type of thing. with, | i Let's taik about each of those in turn. You said you used moral suasion. What kind of activities are you reterring to? A Well, in the moral suasion field we -- actually, we were the catalyst in this whole thing and we had the legal activities, the legal -- well, I don't know how you would phrase it, HW 50955 Doclda'32275454 Page 24 T guess as vou are aware, Cuban industry was totally U.S.-oriented. As parts began wearing out and this type of thing, Castro had his little people there running around trying to place orders with subsidiaries of U.S. companies. Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library SECRET
' SECKRET 23 3 ° z 1 T t esl a g a ty j _ £ o 2 2 a 4 a c aa aU ii 12 a lz a 2 a a x < TA 3 Le ao 16 ry 17 1é a ig Co or] So oi iF 20 5 3 2] = a 3 . ; ‘ = 22 1 wr pars = Go ~ a a - imi 5 24 - 32 + 25 HY 50955 Docld: Q All right. And that is what you were referring to as moral suasion? A Yes. Q Anything else in that category? A Not really. None that I can think of. ) Did you make the same kind of efforts with foreign companies? A At one point we did but it was absolutely useless, the point-in to*stop that sale. the[ sited us down case being the Leyland buses. We pulled all stops i l | i ' | | flat. 2 Now, did you attempt to reach any other sources of supply? A Well, we also had what we call a preemptive ourchasin program. If there was a single source of supply fora particular item we would go in and buy it to deny the Cubans Photocopy from . SECRET Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 25 | { |
Phone {Area 202) 594-6000 cn mM jo C7} WhitD & PAW. } Crt 2O0O04 sliced, SE, Wastingion, Doc. bLG boau ag His a FREE H 24 the market. Would that then be re-sold somewhere on the domestic a, ae Q A Yes. 9 -~ domestic market? A No. It would be re-sold abroad. , : 2 In all cases? A The cases that I was associated with, 1t was all | . . sold abroad. 2 What kind of purchases were made? BN Well, we purchased at one point -- we purchased some Bright Stock in Antwerp. 9 What? A Bright Stock. ) What is that? A tleavy, heavy oil; and since Cuba -- 85 percent of her energy comes from oil, this was considered ‘a critical commodity. Bright Stock can be -~ oh, it is almost like tar, |! melted tar, and it can be cut into additives, lubricants, this type of thing, and i | this was critical to the Cuban economy. So purchase this Bright Stock from a dealer for! we had an oil firm which we reimbursed the guy and the Bright Stock was eventually solid in Africa. 2 “Do vou know of any sales of such materials that were made within the United States? Resales, I should say. A No. Photocopy from SECRET | Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 26
5 ° $ 1 Tt 3 oO a 2 2 te 3 ~ t a a a = re a a o a ~ 4 79 a LEG fs) < ES ci 20 a x < ~ os 3 at _o 26 -5 as ~ we a 9 o 2 “ pial ae me 3 5 cass = Qa b>] 5 . x oy 2 £2 a a — - care) Fi 4 rm 3 a4 = ~ ad er as FEES Q In addition to preemptive buying were there anv other actions taken by this group with respect to sources of supply to Cuba? A Well, we did provide through third ccuntry agents who got orders for Cuban goods, in collusion with the Commerce Department, and I would assume the Special Group, we had replacement parts manufactured that were substandard. 2 And vou had them sold through foreign companies? A Well, we had our agents: get the Cuban orders ail over Europe. Then they would come back and, as a matter of ‘fact, fe) Mr. Dillon? : A No. He was Secretary of the Treasury. Q But -- t A But vou must remember that these American -- Q Mr. Connors? | A Yes. But you must remember these American manufacturers, well, their places were nationalized and they were only teo > 1ap 'd y things were transshipped through two Fh ide business. These or three countries, finally wound up in Havana. 9) You referred to some extra~legal activities. A Yes. That is what I was trying to think of, what think -- I remember this was on one of SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library we did. = just can't HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 27 to work with us. And actually, it was a cash deal, bona
ad fhe “oun BS, fhe 8 26 z our activities but I just can't think -- I remember this was a Fa a on one of our activities but I just can’t remember what the 2 2 extra-legal was. I just can't remember what it was. I know it was one of the parts of the program. y This was illegal activities? Is that what you are " referring to? y : A Well, I wouldn't say they were illegal, but they & - . weren't exactly legal, I don't think. Perhaps they were in a 3 gray area some place. 77 - . : . e . ” - Q Well, whose laws are we talking about, international “~~ law, the laws of the United States? te, . . 3 ~ A> I would have to go back and review the thing. I £ i : 12 5 ~ really can't remember this. I would have te go to the files. é - ; ° > Q Where could we find that kind of thing in the files? = i a A I would think probably. down in the Records Center some a place. — -. : | ~ . Q Would it be possible to obtain that material some “ time during the lunch hour? 3 “ A No, It is forty miles away. ba QO Well, is there some place in the building where 3 “~ you could refresh. your. memory? s ee A Not to my knowledge. All that stuff has been shippedl. 5 i 3 Re This is talking 1l years ago, 12 years ago. All that material é = has been retired. ° ao Q What category of activity would we be talking about r Photocopy from . . SECRET Gerald Ford Library | HW 509355 Docld: 32275454 Page 278 ‘
SELREL 7 when we refer to extra-legal activities? nO A This is what I was trying to think of and I can't Ca think of what it was. I know extra-legal activities was one Phone (Area 202) 584-6000 : parts of the program that we were involved in. i 1 1 i 31 I might have a chart in my safe downstairs that might fey tell me what that is. ~2 fe) Well, let's make a note of that and we will have es) come back to that. ) A All right. ane 9 Who else would be knowledgeable about extra-legal “~ so activities that were run against Castro? oe A Well, the veople that would be knowledgeable are jr On probably retired and I was running the program. So I ran F-! ' Watt & FALE = the economic. program. . [ Oh 0 } 4 > with the economic program? 1 ) | | | | ~* A Yes. a fe) We talked about media placement during this nine- | ue year period... To what are. you referring when you refer to POCKSs Well, these are activities that were run in connection = aaa media placement? . : =~ A Well, stories or news items that perhaps our : 22 propaganda people wrote. We had them placed in newspapers Re and magazines throughout the world. Would this also include broadcasts over radio ao no Q ng cn stations? FED bist Sireen, S€ Photocopy from 16 Rel . Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 29
Prowse (Ato 202) b44a-b0u0G WALEE & PAUL JOOS 1 Wasdangteasn, be Gl. VG beat Sstred, Gok cys a> Cl no oh j-4 f~s Cr} od }~ -) a) m ey fs Fo) ¢-? nN Gl a > to On A Q published A Q A Q in Miami? A Castro. You don't do Q handled? A Q were involved. nx A contract tim s—<“CSCOC‘CSCSCS Q A Q States? A particular frequency to get on short-wave or what they did. SEVKEI oh, yes. Radio is a very big part of it. Now, were any of these newspapers or magazines within the United States? Not to my knowledge, no. These were essentially foreign publications? Yes. Were any of them published in the Cuban community | fhe intent was to get world. opinion against | “What about the. radio broadcasts? How were those Are you speaking of Radio Swan now? Weil, I am unfamiliar with how many radio stations Was there more than one radio station? Mo. We only had the one radio station but we did L that by publishing in the United States. For broadcasts to what areas? For broadcasts to Havana. And the station in | was that received also -~- was that also broadcasting to various areas of the United I have no idea. I don't know whether they used a Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 30 this out or whether they did it
Phone {Area 202) 544-0006 WAGE? & PAIL 2da.s > SE, Wastengien, O¢ Mica, AbGe do aest HY 50955 fms rt fa # cn (>) O td me) Ay) ae CA fe f on le }4 ‘44 po ‘Go a ~2 rep n O te | oo raw CN n3 ds nN cn SECREI 39 Q But the intention was to reach Cuba. A Reach Cuba. Q You referred to a station referred to as Swan. Were there others? I think, and'one down in Key West that they used. Q Where was Radio Swan located? A On Swan Island. a) Where is Swan Island? A Swan Island is a Little glob around Honduras. Q As far as you can recall, were there any other radio stations in the United States that were utilized to broadcast propaganda materials toward Cuba? A Well, there conceivably could have been, not that I recall right now.. Q Do you recall any attempts by the Agency or groups affiliated with the Agency «to raise money from the American public to support those propaganda activities? A No. As far as I know, Radio Swan and this type of thing was fully subsidized by the Agency. Q Do you recall the advertising campaigns that were run in connection with Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty? A Oh, yes. 9 Was anything of that nature done in connection with SECRET co Photocopy from ! Gerald Ford Library e Decld: 32275454 Page 31
Cr Phrase (4Nea 240) 5449 GO00 ni fon) GA WWAK?LD te FA bot Wardtingtai, 6. 20003 S.E., Dareed, Vidi facut ao) he Ss HK ESE Cuban propaganda? A Not to my knowledge. Q And that would include both the publications and the radio? A Right. Q Let's talk about economic warfare for a couple of moments. Could you describe for me briefly the type of ‘economic activities that were conducted against Castro? A Well, first of all, we wanted to denigrate the regime, his credit worthiness, and this type of thing. We worked very closely with the Coordinator of Cuhan Affairs _the State Department and, well, for instance, in those days, guess it was back in 1964, a about a penny a pound to 13 cents a pound, something like that, and we couldn't understand why. So we kept -- Fidel kept saving that he had such a moor crop and this type of thing and we just couldn't figure out why he had such a poor crop because some this cane like mad and this type of thing. So subsequently, lying and he was storing the raw cane in the schools, any place. could. So in cooperation with a couple of sugar brokers in New York, we surfaced this fact and the price of sugar took a | Photocopy from SEC RET Gerald Ford Library Declda: 32275454 Page 32 the price of sugar had jumped from the mills were working 24 hours a day, we found out that he was He had no storage facilities and put it any place he | . | of our own island assets told us they were out there cuttihg
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 f> ee] “oh fed a Cr fod a na We shatie Qa Payee. on t- t =I C3) ~2 . po a3 w a 2000 3 ay) Oo 0G } it a Woadtrecgtan, Bie, ta tl. AYO Test Stewed, wo cn SEGRE! | 31 real tumble and all of a sudden then Cuba started exporting. It was this type of thing that obviously he was trying to build up the world price because he didn't have any money, he was so short on his exchange, and obviously we didn't want him to get the exchange, So it was those types of activities. Q Was the assistance of any U.S. businessmen or U.S. companies enlisted in that effort? , A Oh, ves. 2 In what manner cid you use U.S. companies and businessmen? | A Well, we simply used them as the experts. A great many ~- the sugar industry in Cuba was controlled by the American community, by American bankers, and obviously they lost everything when they had to pull out. Sugar is the i t f i t i i t i t lifeline of Cuba as far as any exchange, foreign exchange, this i : type of thing, and it was naturally our Number 1 target. So it was only natural that we would go to the American businessmen. Q What kind of assistance did you seek or obtain from these businessmen? A Well, we simply talked with them about why ~- you know, the market conditions. were, why the price was rising, if we could find out that Fidel has plenty of sugar, what would happen to the market orice. This tvpe of thing. Q They were used as consultants,basically. SEC Ref Photocopy from | Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 33
no Pode (Arce 22) 249-0000 Cot en ey) a 30 ine PALE Weete)echoo om >. SANGO Y nO oO WA Ditiet, S.f., Whar tittle, Os 4bGhin ras) cn aa? Hen “tot Ts : 32 A -They were used as consultants, basicall VeS. yY, ¥ a ‘ae We have spoken about the investment American pusaness; had in Cuba. Did it ever come to your attention that American organized crime -- A NO. 9 -- had considerable investment in Cuba? * “ys No. Well, everybody knew that the Mafia was in Cuba. IT mean, all the casinos and this type of thing. { a) The casinos were run -- A I knew that long before. When I was in the Air Force during the war, I used to fly inte Havana cn weekends and this type or thing. 9 I understand that. It was fairly well known. A Tt was a criminal. element. . | 2 The Mafia was involved with the casinos in Havana. | A Right. | Q Do you know of any attempts by the Agency to enlist | the support or assistance of any crime figures in any manner whatsoever in the Agency's efforts against the Cuban regime? A No. Q Have you ever heard of Mr.Roselli? AX ©60cOh,:sCyes. Q When was the first time you heard of Mr. Roselli? ~ a4 | . I Well, I guess it was ~- it seems to me it was either i Drew Pearson or Jack inderson had an article on him a number : Photocopy from ; SECRET Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 34
i] ie g “ of years.ago. 8 2 | _. . . 3 | Q Was that the first time you heard of the man's be j q SoG z | name? 3 ‘ i — A Yes, as I recall. ~ Q is that also true of Sam Giancana? A No. I have heard that name but I don’t know where... ry ii . cs Q In‘connection with -- ! S : A Not in connection with the Agency, no. | 4 Gos . a oe “8 Q In connection with the casinos or -- i ! ~ ~~ H Q ~~ gambling interests in Cuba? an! 2 te } A No. RO . - . , . - . : 5 se i 0) You know of. no instance in which organized crime . f 5 ~= =icgures were used as consultants by the Agency? nok A Only what I read in the paper. I had no knowledge | a5 of that whatsoever. | at 2 Do you know of any offers of assistance from figures . i _ - 4c of that type -~ i i f a 13 A No. | 8 - o at 3 §i / . 3 ec 3 Q ~- who were interested in getting back into cuba? 2 20 A No. ic i 3 ae 4 2 We were talking about economic warfare. We have ou i : 3 : 3 eo} talked about attempts to keep the price of sugar low. What other 3 z 241 types of economic activities were conducted against Castro's * 25 i) Cuba? | 1 i HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 35 SECRET SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 33
SECRET 34 | g ' . i 2 f A Well, we used all-source information to find out what! w : 5 | his commercial dealings were. When we would see -~ well, for | a if i ? | i sg oOo tt ‘ . : : . : ‘ H a i instance, the Nicaro Nickel Mine which is a. source owned | 3 , $ a 4°, . ; os ; . Lo | by the General’ Services Administration, finally got back into. | i - production and nickel, of course, and still is -- was in short E et. es m a ta . supply. We had a French firm, Societe le Nickel, who was ? ; . . . . buying almost; the entire output of the Nicaro mines. And this é : | French firm ex ported to the United States. So we went to ~ i y . : - , . . . : . Fs the Treasury Department and to the Foreign Assets Control ““  ,eople and said, isn't there something we can do to stop these | i ‘ “~~ "le -Nickel exports coming into the United States? So they lookeid : ©." : | Fi “= i into the thing and indeed they did. < : : 2 tos Q ° Who owned the mine? < a 2 an A The U.S. Government owned it when Castro took it ~“" over. : ~2° Q I see. ! +" A General Services. Administration. And it was leased ; =c out for operation. But the ownership rested with the 2 he Government. { 3 G aC . So the Treasury simply made the French provide a c . ~ 2 &L . Certificate of Origin for the nickel that went in ~~ they . c ‘ £ ‘ 3 221 export a lot of metal that contains nickel, silverware, knives | ui , a 2 . - ; : i z £6 and forks, this type of thing, and ~-- you know, stainless 2 <4, steel, and since nickel is used as a hardening agent we simply 7 25} = Treasury simply said you can‘t import any more into this HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 36 SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PauL 410 First Streer, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003, HW 50955 i— a3 ws Docld oat aaa eT eeeee SECRET as | country until we have a Certificate of Origin. As a matter of fact, there was a boat that was pulling into the dock in New York and they wouldn't let it unload. They just turned it around. Eventually, over a period of months, le Nickel found other sources and export privileges to the United States were restored. You know, it is -~ you just -- any time you raise | | | | | or lower a tariff you have economic warfare. It is that | simple. | j Q Were there any other instances that you can recall | of economic warfare in which you enlisted the support of | American business firms? | A I know we were in touch with a great many American | business firms. We enlisted everybody's support that we could.. MR. MANFREDI: Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) BY MR. MANFREDI: Q When we broke for a moment we were discussing other instances where the Agency has enlisted the support of America business in economic warfare against Cuba. Can you think of any other such instances? A Oh, certainly. The Cubans were having.an awful time with their Maritime fleet,such as it was. These boats, were powered with)Nordberg engines. We simply went to the Nordberg } people and told them -- asked them to cooperate with us,which Photocopy from SE CRET Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 37
SECRET 4 oS So 2 1 : | they said they would. They notified their manufacturer's Ww iF 3 | representatives around the world if they got any orders from & 3 : : 2 | the Cubans they were to be refused. This type of thing. 5 1 ° i We did the same thing with -- } 8 ; Q Let's just stop for a second. Now, was Nordberg | : 6 ' compensated in any way for cooperation with the Agency? | ? i A No. | 8 i fe) Were they compensated for the loss of business | i! . 9 i involved in that activity? 10 ; A No. No. | | | ily Q I take it, you received similar cooperation from | ; 3 te | other companies. | £ 13 | ; “ot A Oh, a great many other companies, yes. é il < fb oR a ‘ ‘ _ : 3 14! Q Did any American companies refuse to cooperate in +5 that manner? |! 16 | A No. Net a one. 17 ; ~ Q Were there any legal sanctions threatened against an 16 ; companies? 9 19; A No. No. G 20-1 fe) Were there any sanctions. that could have been brought ray 'y & mi to bear upon those companies had they chosen to trade with : | 3 ae Cuba? ul i “ i < 25 || A Well, in the first place, they couldn't trade with. ri - 2 24 Cuba. They couldn't get export licenses from this country | * 3 28 | anyway. Then, under the Foreign Assets Control Act of the | | | t SEC 4 ET Photocopy from . Gerald Ford Library HA 50955 Doclda: 322775454 Page 38 ,
}- Phone (Area 202) $44-6000 Crl WARD & PAUL 24 410 First Slree!, $.£., Washington, 0.C. 20063 NO au) 29 i i i ; SECRET 4 Treasury Department you have the extra-territorialty clause in there where a subsidiary of an American company cannot -- foreign subsidiary of an American company cannot trade with the country that is designated and Cuba was a designated countr And all the businessmen were well aware of this. Nobody tried | to twist their arm. Q Other than insuring that these companies refused to accept orders from Cuba, which I take it you feel they were legally constrained from doing, what other types of support di you receive from American business? receive correspondence, particularly, say, from -- well, they { | A Well, if American business -- sometimes they would received at from Cuba asking for publications and this type of thing. They would normally forward all this type of thing to the Commerce Department and the Treasury Department, or in : some instances they might call me and I would just give them a Post office box to send the correspondence to. Q- Any other types of support solicited or received by the Agency from American business? A No. Not that I can recall. There just wasn't one firm we approached, and God knows we approached [I don't know how many, that wasn't extremely cooperative. As a matter of fact, a lot of them, you know, thought we weren't doing enough, that we ought to do a little more than we were doing, the government wasn't really pushing Cuba the way it should, but SEC RET . Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 350955 Decld: 32275454 Page 39
g 3 a : Q ! 2 it 0] 5 q é 4 A 5 Q ~ A 9 the Board 8 ; | il} Z 1 a 13 || a 4 Q Z ‘ t44 3 +e A 25 | i} +e a a f i ~Q 13 | A g isi Q Q i g i c ! E | 4 ih g i 2 24 || 2 25 A { SECRET ns outside of that, nothing. There wasn't any problem of coopera-~ | tion. There wasn't any arm-twisting. It was all voluntary. Did you identify yourself as CIA -- Yes. ~~ in dealings with these companies? Indeed, I do and we went to the top level, even Chairman or the president. No problem at all. Let's talk about paramilitary operations. We started but didn't really discuss that in any depth. What kind of paramilitary operations were run against Cuba by the CIA? Maritime operations. Is that the extent of it? That is the extent of it. Were there any aerial operations? Not to my knowledge. Leaflet drops? No. Bombing? No. Of course, you had the over-flights. As far as I am concerned that is the only aerial activity. That was run by another directorate, wasn't it? Yes. Aerial photography, and so forth. Yes. They run a flight when you ask them. It has to SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Doclid: 322375454 Page 40
SECRET ,o that correct? Gerald Ford Library Sc g 3 1 $ be requested and that is about it. a 2: & Q And those were run out of the United States? : 7 A Oh, yes. z 4 | . Q . Can you think of anything, any other type of para-~ | 5 4 military activity other than maritime operations. 6 | A No. 1 really can't, no. | 7 8 Ld Q Am I correct that those operations were manned | | 8h by CIA contract employees? ; A Right. 10 ~ Y Q Whiéh would include Cuban refugees. i | ne A Right. . 5 Q. And some:CIA officers? a Zi . 5 tou A Right. 3 14 | 8) Any other branches of the services, Armed Services, | . . } +9 fi involved? This, of course, is posted Bay of Pigs. | 16 |i 16 | A Yes. No, not to my knowledge. You have got to remember ry it LY ! that probably down at our Domestic Training Station we 18 f probably have people on -detail from other -~ from the military S 19 i branches in the Government, but other than that I don't think fon] of 8 20 | that -- of course, during the Bay of Pigs operation we also D ' . : 3 el had people detailed into the Agency. 2 50 | = BR : Q Now, the training of persons involved in maritime WJ “i | 3 25 i operations, I take it, was conducted in part within.the Z £4 | United States and in part outside of the United States. Is | Photocopy from SECRET HY 50955 Doclid: 322375454 Page 41
ol Phane {Arena 202) $44-6000 fae) WARD & PAUL fH tA 1é 19 20 al 22 238 24 4iG fiesl Siscet, S.E., Wastiityian, O.C. 20003 HW 50955 Docld: SECRET 7 A I would think. probably the major portion of it was conducted within the United States. Q the Keys would be considered within the United States. A Oh, yes. Q Or were there any locations where it was conducted outside the United States? A Following the Bay of Pigs,I don't think so. Not to my knowledge. I just don't know, I just don't recall but I don't think that -- I think all the training was done domestically. Q Now, what kinds of operations are includéd within this category of maritime operations? A Well, the infiltration. operations, infiltrating agents into Cuba, exfiltrating agents, hit and run sabotage raids. That is about the extent of it. - 9 Now, when did. these.operations commence? Was it shortly after the Bay of. Pigs? A I would ~~ I think these operations were probably at their height during the period about 1963 through, say, 1967. The program was terminated in 1968, I think in December 1968, something like that. Q Why was the program terminated? A First of all, it was too expensive. It wasn't provid- ing enough intelligence and it simply wasn't -- economically, SE C RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 42 J eee nennnnnnnnrnnnnnnnnnnnnnanailin anartentibenrinnansnarrannrnraatarannnnane
Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 Firsl Sircet, $.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 HW 50955 LO Li lé 18 19 20 » aL 22 ae) 24 25 Docld: SECRET | a it wasn’t feasible to continue these things. The agents were getting wrapped up. We were -- we just felt that the return wasn!t sufficient for what the investment was. Q You say the agents were getting wrapped up. A Yes. Q ° What do you mean by that? A When we infiltrated an agent, Cubans would identify him and capture him. Q These various types of paramilitary operations that were conducted by the Agency I trust were approved by the etree Forty Committee? A Every operation received a specific approval from the Forty Committee. Q In advance? A In advance. Q Now, what was the procedure for submitting -~- for initiating such an operation? A Well, normally in the case of an infil or an exfil. or perhaps we wanted to lay down the cache. Q You are referring to a cache of arms. A A- cache of anything, replay of radio, batteries, whatever they might need. If we decided that we should have one of these operations and the request would go from here over to the,’ I guess to the White House and then the Forty Committee at its weekly meeting -~ they used to meet very SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 43
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 HY 50955 20 al a2 rae) 24 25 ad ies Gos PRES 8 42 frequently -~ they would either approve the operation or say no. These operations had to be planned well in advance because the tides had to be right, the moon had to be in the proper phase for communications and this type of thing. And these things, all these were coordinated with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Navy, the Coast Guard, the FBI. If we were exiltrating people, the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Every Government agency or enforcement agency or military agency that had any-involvement whatsoever;..and the entire thing was coordinated. 9 Do you know of any such paramilitary operations that were run unbeknownst to the Forty Committee? A No. Q What kind of volume of operations are. we talking about? A -You are not talking about a very big volume of operations because of the planning that had to go into these things. I would say that probably at the height of the thing they may be running three or four a month. No more than that. Q You have heard Eugenio Martinez refer to having run 300 operations. A I have seen that. Q Is that inaccurate? A Well, it all depends on what is in his mind. He may have considered some of the training exercises as opera- SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Decld: 32275454 Page 44
¢ is) e 9 z °c vs] te ra) rr 3 a t 2 3 a 10 Li le WARD & PAUL 14 20003 £2 5-E., Washington, OC. 25 410 First Street, aw] > 25 HW 50955 Docld 13) 21 | Q Now, from what specific locations were these MR. A They were mostly launched from thexKeys. | | fe) Any other locations? A Not to my Knowledge. Q Now, would you describe for me the kind of hit and | run sabotage operations that were conducted? | A Well, we conducted one hit and run sabotage against the Texaco refinery. | _Q What used to be the Texaco refinery? i A What used to be the Texaco refinery. operations launched? pate in any three or 400 active operations into Cuba. MANFREDI: Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) 43 tions. Obviously, these guys trained. In order to run one of these operations, you know, you would have to have a mother see if there were mines and this type of thing on the shore before you go. So he may have considered that all these train- ship in place and rubber boats and the UDT people to go in to | ing exercises were operations but no way did he ever partici- | THE WITNESS: These things, a great amount of planning went into these things. We did have a model of the refinery. type of thing to do the most effective damage. This was run. It | was successful, as I recall, not totally successful but it was i t :32275454 Page 45 SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library We agonized over the best approach to the refinery and this
SECRET 44 | | 2 | 8 1 | a successful operation. By that, I mean they didn't do as : e | much damage as they wanted to because they had to get out 3 5 | because the Cuban defense came after them. It was that type é 4 | of operation that we did. 5 As I recall, another time we took a team in to burn 6 | some cane fields. Reaily, the classical operations that we 7 | did in the maritime activities were the infiltrations and 8 | exfiltrations. 9 | Q Were any CIA operations run out of Guantanamo? LO A Not to my knowledge. il Q Was it impractical to use the base there for -- F 12 | A Well, the base is so surrounded and has been that : 13 | I think if a guy went through that fence you would carry him < 14 | back. He wouldn't walk. 15 | MR. MANFREDI : Off the record. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 7 MR. MANFREDI: Back on the record. 12 BY MR. MANFREDI: © 19 Q Are there any other categories of sabotage run out f 20 ofthe Keys other than what you have just described? : By A Well, we did lay down a cache, if you will, sabotage E 22 kits to be used by our own island agents. They contained 5; “ 23 sugar to dump into gas tanks and metal fragments to put down : 24 crank cases. Things of this nature. : 25 One of our main objects was to, of course, sabotage SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 509355 Docld: 32275454 Page 46
SECRET - z all the oil. We did that with a big operation. We made our : 2 own oil, substandard. Additives, I should say, not oil. We ‘ ° contracted with an American firm for that. And we shipped 2 a . 4 : it in through third countries in Europe. It did hit the target. ° The thing we wanted to get at was the oil and the | 6 ‘ automotive machinery on the island. We knew it was breaking | ? down and if we could get a complete breakdown we would have a everything at a standstill because in those days the automotiv 9 equipment wasn't coming in that rapidly from Europe because 10 Castro didn't hve the money to buy it and they weren't going t at extend the credit. | 2 12 | The railroad system was in total disaster. The < iH : 1 Soviets had such a long logistics line, supply line, plus 4 a : 5 5 14 > the fact that the Cubans didn't like the Soviet equipment because they were used to good American equipment. And these 16 ; were principal targets that we were trying to get to.) 17 ; . _ Q In your experience at the Agency can you think of 16 " any other analogus or similar paramilitary operations run from a base in the United States? A No. Al : Q I know there has been some paramilitary training i ee in the United States. 410 First Street, S-E., Washington, O.C. 20003 Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library i] cn tnnaanagnag-s0 naa snanaan canasdhaannasad SE eno Crepe re eS OS 9 RAE An ee eet IEP fil eee ree rer errerrerrnerrnrTnrnTNTnrenoyecaerecnahenaenaananne stn snap, . { 2 eee wet eee enn a3 A _Oh, yes. iF if a4 | Q In connection with other operations. hi z5 |i A Oh, sure. | HW 509355 Docld: 32275454 Page 47
| SECRET 46 i<] La] g 1 tate: . ¢ Q But do you know of any paramilitary operations that a were actually run out of the United States? = o | A No. “ | Q As far as you know, then, this is a totally unique 5 | | | situation. 6 | A As far as I am concerned, it is, yes. if | ; ? Q Now, how large a Navy was actually organized in . 8 | Miami? On a previous occasion you described this to me as 9 the third largest Navy in the Caribbean. | Lo A That is right. it Q What kind of equipment did these people have? z le A Well, we had.-- honestly, everything from a canoe q a . . : : Lo up. to three to 500 foot mother ship. We had Boston whalers, z . 3 144 rubber boats. We-had a number of craft in, say, the 27 to 25 45 foot. length. And they looked like real tubs. They were 16 painted and they looked like they wouldn't even float but Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library SECRET 1? they had-the fastest-engines in them. They could outrun any~- 18 | thing. They were extremely well armed. We had our under~ 2 19 water demolition teams. We had a pretty good.Navy. o : 20. 9 . Did these craft operate under non-official cover Cc 8 ai in the Miami area? 3 22 A Yes. ul rv) ; . < 25 | Q Were there a variety of covers or was there one : E 24 firm? 7 25 | A No. Variety. | , HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 46 -
Phone (Aréa 202) 444-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Sircet, $.£., Wasnington, O.C. 20003 18} 19 | 20 | 22 20 24 29 HW 50955 Docld: SECRET ” °Q Fishing companies? A Well, fishing companies, Geodetic Survey, marine supply. In all, I think during the period that the station and these other entities were under commercial cover, or non- official cover, I think we had 100 so cover companies. Q Did any of these companies actually engage in any legitimate commercial activities? A Not to my knowledge, no. Q None of them -- were any of them in competition with firms in that area? A These are probably what we would call devised facilities. They were probably registered with the State of Florida and they paid taxes and this type of thing, but if one was. blown or became known, we just crossed that out of existence and started up a new one. Q What did Eugenio Martinez do when he wasn't running these operations? A Well, he was down ~- this is one of the reasons, as I told you before, we brought him back and put him under that contract, that retainer, because of the years that he spent under such strict operational discipline down in the Keys. Obviously, he didn't stay down there all the time. He came back ~- he might come back once a month, or something like that, to see his family, perhaps once every two weeks if he got some time off. Photocopy from SECRET Gerald'Ford Library 32275454 Page 49 SERRE ETnEnnemeaaeenenemeeeee ree
SECKET | i Se i g 14 $ ~ f Q I see. So some of these boats and personnel were a 2 ! ; ; & } actually stationed full-time in the Keys. 2 A Oh, yes. Oh, sure. 3 i é A | . ; Q Were there any operations run out of the United : States which involved destruction of crops or poisoning of 6 i { sugar or anything of that sort? | il it { wes ? | A What did you have in mind specifically? You mean the! 8 | Puerto Rican thing? 9 A Well, that is one of the things I had in mind. | 10) Would you describe that for me? oa A Well, this is, I guess you-could term it a target of 2 12 | opportunity. This was where a vessel was carrying Cuban sugar | a . | to the Soviet Union and I forget exactly now what happened to 4 \ i < - 3 14 fl it but I know that it got a hole below the waterline, or = |i . : . . . 19] something, and had to put into Puerto Rico for repairs. 16 | In order to repair it, I guess, and get it in the : 17 drydock or wherever it was, they..had to remove the sugar and | . a put it in the. warehouse and at that time I guess somebody came ‘2 19 | up with a plan to try to widen the rift between -- there was e | J 20.) a rift at that time between the Soviets and Cubans and to Go . : ei put a harmless substance into the sugar that would make it 3 ce acid, sour tasting, and it wouldn't harm the sugar or the wl 0 4 < 25 | individual, and some of this was done. And then when it A 2 a4 leaked, of course, we had to get rid of it and we had a sugar 3 - 3 =e) | firm buy it back from the Soviets. ! photocopy from Gerald Ford Library SECRET HW 509355 Docld: 32275454 Page 50
Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 WARG & PAUL S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 4\0 First Street, IH Cri H> on 10>) Q Bought it back from the Soviets? A Yes. MR. MANFREDI: oft the record. (Discussion oft the record.) MR.MANFREDI: Back on the record. BY MR. MANFREDI: Q Are there any other operations in which crops were ~~ were there attempts to destroy crops in Cuba? A No. No. | Q Place foreign substances in Cuban products? | A In Cuban products? | 16) Yes. | I A No. Not that I recall. You see, Cuba really -- in | those days the only thing, Cuba was exporting sugar and nickel. The agriculture sector of the economy was in absolutely total, chaos. God, they didn't have any citrus, they didn't have anything, and the poor people in Cuba were literally starving. There just wasn't anything to eat. And Fidel was going around with this big plan --~ of course, there were a number of experimental cattle ranches in Cuba. King Ranch had one there. I forget -- several other European and American companies that had experimental cattle ranches there and they were experiment— ing with the, you know, cross-breeding and this type of thing. Fidel was preoccupied with this. He went up to Canada and paid $100,000 for a bull and -- so he just put it SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 51 SECRET 19 | { |
Phone (Area 202) 5944-6000 WARD & PAUL 410 First Street, S.£., Wastingten, O.C. 20003 HW 50955 18 19 20 24 29 Docld: SECKEE gg on an old Cuban Airways airplane. The damn airplane few too high and the bull became sterile by the time he landed in Cuba. No thought given to, you know, pressurizing the cabin and keeping the temperature at a certain point and this type of thing. So he was helping us all along the line and this here again, we generate propaganda, incompetence and this type of. thing. : . But as far as sabotaging any Cuban product, no, we f didn't go into that. Our object was to enforce the blockade and cut off his sources of supply. “ Q When was the Miami Station established? : A As a station? Q Yes. A I think in September 1961. Q And that was several years before you became involved in Cuban matters? _A Yes. Q Do you know of any other facilities of that nature i within the United States, Agency facilities? i A ‘| A You mean, targeted against the opposition? Q Yes. i im A A station as such? i Q Yes. A No. You have some communications facilities that SECRET f Photocopy from | | | | you really call stations because here again, they are not | Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 52
Phone (Area 202} 544-6000 a OY WARD & PAUL 410} First Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20063 HY 50955 Docld: SECKET 5s. directed towards any domestic activity. They are in support of overseas communications. Q Of course, we have FR bases and DCD offices and Office of Security officers, and so forth. i A Right. | Q But I am talking about actual stations. | A Operating stations, no. | Q This is the only such station in the United States . . - j as far as you know, is that correct? | A Right. | Q And was this station established to deal primarily with Cuban activities? | { A Yes. . 9 Cuban-related matters? | A With Cuba, period. | Q Did it have, when it was established, any other | responsibilities with respect to Western Hemisphere activities? A Not to my knowledge. Q Entirely limited, then, to Cuban activities? | } A Yes, and in support of Cuban activity and other countries in the Hemisphere. Q When you joined the group dealing with Cuban activities, what was the size or the number of personnel attached to that Station? A To that Station? Well, the Station had probably a couple SEC RET Photocopy from 7 Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 53
| / : g 1 3 5 z 4 | ij i Q Full-time Agency people? ? | A No, no. | 6 Q Combination of contract and -~ | | | 9 is A And full-time, yes. A regular employee we call a staff 10 | employee. | 11 Q Now, would Martinez have been one of those contract | i 5 1é | people? | ft i l é ® 13 A Yes. a | < i i : 3 14 é) Even though he was located down in the Keys? 16 i oe A Oh, yes. 16 Q And what kind of facilities did the Station have in i? Miami? Physical facilities. 1é | A Well, they were located on the south campus of the 2 19 | University of Florida, I mean, the University of Miami, at 5 20 | the old Richmond Naval Air Station. It was a self-contained o a i ; zi | unit. It was pretty well off the beaten path, in fact, damn = Re | well off the beaten path. It was about four miles from the a | . j eo | Dixie Highway inland. We had our own guard force. Z 24 | Q Official cover? ° . : co 3 25 A No. Non-official. ‘ photocopy from | ; Geral d Ford Library | SECRET HW 50955) Docld: 32275454 Page 54
| | SEGRE! 53 | { 3 | 8 1 | vt 3 i g 2 | 2 | one was calied Zenith Corporation and it was set up with a : | President and Vice President, normal corporate setup. i 5 | og , Q Engaging in any business? | 6 | | A No. | 7 | . i | Q Now, in a community of that type, Cuban community, | ° how long could a non-official cover last? | 9 A Well, obviously it didn't, but it was research | 105 activities. Funded -- it-is a giant mechanism when you put | it one of these things in for the funding and this type of thing, 12 |i - ar | 2 12 |. for, your: ostensible customers, establishing bank accounts. <= ‘ 13 5 | Q Yes, I understand. tt H cd : i 3 14 A So it was a research activity and the only people that } . ' 3 ever paid any attention to the place were the newspapers. You 18 | know, somebody would make an inquiry, you knew, we can't accept aa any work, we are loaded with Government contracts and this 18 | type of thing, and it held up reasonably well. And out of 2 a this oneything, of course, then we were running these innumera- S —— u 20 | ble-other’ covers with different activities. The guard : el | force, of course, were like -~ well, they wore uniforms, simila = i s } = ae to the Pinkerton people and this type of thing. And I think Ar | “ | ° . ; . . . 3 a that there was -- in the later days at that site I think the A 25 r4 Department of Agriculture had offices in there and some other Government agencies, in other buildings, of course. i SE \e RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Doc3ld:32275454 Page 55
2 2 fo) 7 S aL a 3 2 2 - < 5) 2 3 = 4 ES) 6 vi 8 WARD & PALL 7 i8 - 19 Cc s G 20. 3 22 a A : 23 a 3 24 7 25 HW 50955 Docld: sk VREE | 54 Q And this particular Station, then, was under the supervision of the group we have been discussing? A Yes. They were staffed within the Cuban Operations. Q When did the Western Hemisphere Division resume responsibilities for the Miami Station? A Well, when Des. Fitzgerald left as Chief of the Special Activities Staff and became Chief of the Western Hemisphere Division, he brought it back into the Division. Q When you joined the group in 1963,. what functions were being performed by the Miami Station? A Well, all the classical intelligence functions. I think I have lined them out at:one time ---collection of Ss positive intelligence, counterintelligence, paramilitary, this | type of thing. Covert action. Q This is the list of things you gave me earlier in the deposition? A Yes. . Gerald Ford Library SECRET 32275454 Page 56 Photocopy from |
SECKET 5s i i Q Which of these activities, if any of them were 3 3 Ly = | ; 5 2 | & | actually being conducted within the Cuban community in Miami? @ H A Well, the collection of foreign positive and probably 5 & a | ; || counterintelligence. i HI ; 5 | Q So the Agency was conducting counterintelligence | 6 . activities in the Miami area? | il 7 | | A Yes, sir. 8 | Q Can you give me an example of the kinds of counter- | 9 | intelligence activities that the Agency would be conducting | } i 10) in that area or was conducting in the area at that time? | bey 11 12 WARD & PAUL 18 a 19 ¥ 20, c 8 21 3 22 : 23 | 3 24 ¢ 25 Photocopy trom | SECRET | Gerald Ford Library | HY 50955 DBocld: 322375454 Page 57
Phone (Area 202) 544-6006 WARD & PAUL E., Washigion, B.C. 20003 430 farsi Slices, S. HW 50955 an ~~ 16 17 12 20 21 22 a) 24 25 od fin es PRES Hl 56 Q Were there many activities of that type? A Not really. You have got to remember that the Bureau's Cuban squad was fairly small. I mean, it was a large squad in terms of FBI squads. It had 36 people on it, some- thing like that, but 36 people trying to follow a couple of hundred thousand Cubans around, you know, it is pretty nega- ‘tive. This was one of the reasons that obviously from. -~- in those days when we had formed these revolutionary fronts which were being run by the Cuban exiles, they were reporting to Case Officers and they would report on things in the community, of people they thought were suspect and this type of thing. These leads in turn were then given to the Bureau and it was to this extent that we got ourselves involved in CI activity. Q Would it be fair to say that the involvement in CI SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library Docld:32275454 Page 58 ce a ae ere tan ap nnn nent
SECRET - fos] 8 1 $ | activities in that area was primarily a function of the over- x Z| n | wheiming number of these people and the Bureau's inability E | to properly staff the thing? 2 H é a |i i A Yes, yes. You have got to remember, too, that a lot \! : ‘ 5 4 | of the people on that Cuban squad were in the legal section 6 ij i of the Embassy in Havana. You know, the FBI overseas is | known as Legal Attaches, obviously working out of the Embassy 8 | 9 || | from Havana were down in Miami at that time. So there was a i relationship there that hac gone over a period of years lif ; i between the Agency and the Bureau. 12 | 3 | MR.MANFREDI: We will reconvene at 1:00 o'clock. a 13 . (Whereupon, at 11:45 o'clock a.m., the taking of- & 1 ¢< i 14 | oe . - . ° “| the deposition was recessed, to reconvene at 1:00 p.m., this 25 | same day.) 16 | _. | - 17 | i } 1e 2 a 8 3 20 | a I $ 21 | g 22 | ui : 23 | = | 3 24 / ° = Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library SECRET HY 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 59
“CCD EUNIN LING SIS LL flg mbh a 2 @ 5 5 6 q 8 9 10 11 2 12 2 a # 13 a & 3 14 15 16 17 18 - 19 f 20 0 8 21 g 22 : 23) 5 24 > 25 HY 50955 Docld: Thereupon, Miami Station . Bo what the AMOTS were, for Security Agency? TInterior, unlike our 32275454 Fage 60 i EXAMINATION | organization in exile. SECKET WILLIAM C. q | BY MR. MANFRENI: I understand that the Miami Station was the largest CIA station in the world? AFTERNOON SESSION STURBITTS, i CGalled as a witness by Counsel for the Commission on CIA Activities, and having been first duly sworn by the Notary Public, was examined and testified as follows: BY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION (Cont'd) 9} When we recessed for lunch vou were talking about the A ©60””r:i«‘“‘iT whee Largest CIA station in the world. —. 0, At its height? A. Nothing comes anvplace close to it. 0. I wonder if vou could describe briefly for the record A. Well, the AMOS were Cuban a Cuban intelligence overall contingency plan that US Government had. Should Castro Cuba and form a new Ministry of the Interior. 0, Now, Ministry of the Interior, is that a euphemism S, is the security force, internal and. SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library ' A, Well, in most countries of the world the Ministry of | | We full intended -- this was part of the ever be overthrown, these neople would be the nucleus to go into}
“ aad fe Sees FE 27 o 8 l | 0. And these people were Cuban exiles? : | = | A, Cuhan exiles. a z 5 0. How large an outfit were the AMOTS? é A A. Well, at one time -- I can give vou the exact figures but I know it well exceeded| | probably closer to -- 5 6 | 0. Go ahead. | 7 OR Probably closer | something like that. 8 | a. Now, would that) |persons be included within the | 9 [oho made up the Miami Station? | i | 0 That was over and ahove the personnel of the Miami | H 2 ; 12 | Station? | i 4 a ‘ ie R £ ? : 13 | A rqnat | 0 < 4A | a These people were fulltime CIA employes, weren't thev? | . 18 19 20, al 22 23 24 410 First Street, S-£., Washington, O.C. 20003 Photocopy from SEC RET | Gerald Ford Library ————— HY 50955 Docld: 322375454 Page 61
Poone (Arey 202) 544-Go00 WARD & PAIL ” DEKE! . 60 A That is right. 0. And was training provided them by the Agencv? 0. Oh, ves. A. You said the smaller group of the two groups that made up the AMOTS conducted the interrogations, is that correct? A Right. a When you speak of interrogations, are you referring te debriefings? | | A I am referring to debriefings of newly arrived exiles | or perhaps exiles that had heen in the country whom during theinx time here had acquired new information. | 0. How were those -- how and where were those debriefings | conducted? Well, normally the debriefings were conducted at ,S.E., Wastiingion, OC. 20003 4G First Street Sometimes if there was going to be a lengthy debriefing, we had a residence which we rented and the interior was changed into. small rooms like this where vou could bring people in, sit them down, under controlled conditions,and debrief them without any interference and this type of thing. 0, For how lonq a neriod did these debriefings go on? f SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 62 HW 50955 Docld:
Phone (Area 202) 544-6600 cr d> en WARD & PAUL JH Cr 410 First Street, S.E., Washingtan, 0.C. 20003 HY 50955 Docld: ° ad Bs es RE 8 A You mean in terms of vears? ia Yes. A. Well, I would think that I would probably say from about 1962, and I think the debriefings as such, of course -- we relied principally on the airlift for the people coming out and when the airlift was cut off, which Castro did -- cut off about, I quess about 1970 or ‘71, in that timeframe -- 0. I see. ’ A, e“~ that stopped the flow of the refugees, so we just | terminated that part of the activity. 0. ‘Well, in addition to debriefing refugees that came in in the airlift, did the smaller group of AMOTS have any othe intelligence gathering functions -= A ONO. ; 0. In the community? ~ A. Well, I can’t give vou a real ves or no-to that. I would suppose that there is an-outside possibility they could have been used to debrief: people within the community, within the Cuban community, but we had in the organization -= all these people were Cuban'with the exception of we had what we call an On-Site Case Officer, who was a fulltime staff emplovee and he had a couple of assistants; including a-secretarv. These people were directly under his control. Though the organization as it was set up, they had their own chief and this type of thing, | t | but the chief took his instructions from the On-Site Case officer. Phot from SEC RET Geratd Ford Library 32275454 Page 63
tt Pnone (Area 202) 544-6000 ray) a cn ao WARD & PAUL fH CH S.£., Washington, 0.C. 20003 Ae) | oad 24 4kO Forst Sircei, HW 509355 Docld: 20 ho SECRET 62 Of course, if these people went out and did something on their own, they could do things we were not aware of, obviously. You can't -~ you know what they are doing during their eight or ten hours that thev are going to work evervday but once they | leave, we don't know what they are up to. 0. Did they have CIA credentials? i A. No sir | 0. Did CIA levy anv intelligence requirements upon these people other than in their duties ~~ in their debriefing capacitv, I should sav? A. No. When -- there were -- obviouslv there was a standard debriefing form that covered questions of intelligence interest or a battle, you know, anything -= economic questions, morale, and this type of thing. When these questions ~~ when. these people were cebriefed and the. debriefer wrote up the report, it would be sent from the AMOTS over. to the Station. if the debriefing report contained something of positive intelligence, of that nature, the Case Officer -= well, not the Case Officer but a staffer in the Station may or may not jot down some additional requirements and.ask that that person be recontacted and asked snecific. questions. 0. Now, in addition to’ debriefing, what else did this smaller broup of AMOTS do for the Agency in. the Miami area? A, This was their prime purnose,. SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 64
Phone (Area 202) 944-6600 WARD & PAUL 5-£., Washington, B.C. 20603 410 First Street, HW 50955 Cr Ts 21 | 99 ; Biscavne Boulevard thev called. Freedom House and this was, of 23 | i i | 24 | | care for them in Freedom House, i f { Docld: types. ti MR. 0. which would he secretaries, si Gite i 63 How large was that particular group? Oh, there were only about, I would Say at the outside, I don't think there were more than probably 12 or 15 in that qroup, if there were that many. MANFREDI: Off the record. (Off the record discussion) BY MR. MANFREDI: Back on the record. 1 Before we move on to further. discussion of the AMOTS 1 could. vou briefly describe for.me what role the CIA plays in resettling Cuban emigres? | | | ie) A, CIA doesn't resettle Cuban emiqres. What Agency is charged with that responsibility? Health, Education and Welfare. Does CIA plav any role in that vrocess? We mav assist if we are.asked but the idea of the who | airlift was having relatives here. for somebodv to claim you whe you came in so vou wouldn't become a ward of the State of the Government, and normally when these refugees came in, thev were processed through the Center and then thev had a place down on course, all run by HEWN, and they -~ if need be and thev had to stay overnight or stav several davs, HEW would put them up and Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 65 I think there were about five debriefers with the support people translators, strictly administrative i [ i i i i TS Sn ~—l e
no SEGRE E °4 Then as soon as they could, of course, they- would move ther i 8 _ | | 2 i ij = a) i to the areas where they wanted to resettle them, where the o] H . 8 i 3 3 : relatives were, this tvpe of thing, and we had- nothing to do 2 4 ; with that whatsoever. | i 8 6 ? 8 5 10 Ll 3 le 2 2 2 13 q “5 0. Okay. What activities was the larger group engaged 16 yan 1 A. WE1L1, the larger group was engaged in the collection ok t t - 18 | of intelligence. They compiled dossiers on the principals 19 | inside Cuba. They carded -- they kept card files on every Pe 2 50 | refugee that came through the reception center. They provided + CG . , I : 21 they did do economic and social reporting. They put out a | 3 29 | monthly newsletter based on the information they collected. _ | “ 93 | The information these people collected as opposed to the 3 3 information we collected, ther's was all unclassified. That 3 came from ~~ all the information thev had came from human sources 3 25 | i‘? . ; | Photacopy from | SECRET | Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 322375454 Page 66
°. ad ts Sos BREE 65 | er overt publications. We subscribed | a re) i ° § 3 Ll; Z il la great many newspapers, periodicals, a 2 | ; z | Spanish language type things. z a |; 2 | a Well, they were doing clandestine collections as well, | weren't thev? | A. I don’t know if you could call it clandestine. What 6 | | i did you have in mind? > | | | 0. Well, would thev run agents in the community? 8 . | A. Well, ves, there were penetrations of the Cuban 9 | i i community, yes. | 0. And that is clandestine collection, isn't it? 11} A. WE1L1, I call that human resources. | z 12’ 0. All right. Where are these files now? é | ‘> ~ H a 13 | A. They are in the Headquarters here. A great many of | * 4 | them were really destroyed. It got to be rather comic. We _ } . | went down there several years ago just looking through the files 16 | to see what kind of shape thev were in and they had such great | ~" | information for intelligence value in there as a picture of a nS) gal who might be the daughter of a Cuban refugee who just won I 3 19 | 4 swimming meet. It got rather ridiculous. So we purged those a | g 20 | files and took out that material, you know, which just didn't : a1 | have any pertinancy at all, Z 22 3 24 3 25 SEC RET ' Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Decld: 32275454 Page 67
Phone (Aréa 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAWL fe tr» 17 13 19 20 el 416 first Street, $.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 aw) nO SECRET ee 0. Now, is there any wav to determine from those files which of those exiles have hecome United States citizens? A No way. Q Has there been anv effort to make such a determina- tion? A. We made an effort at one time but this ~~ you can become nationalized out in California and your record of nationalization wouldn't be reflected here in Washington for two years. That is how far thev are behind. 0. So I take it =~ A, So there is no central index vou can go to. I mean, there is a central index you can go to but it.is.not current. 0. ~t take it, then, that there is a possibility that the CIA has some files in Miami or here in Langley on Cubans who are now American citizens? A. Absolutely true. 0. Now, are any of those files likely to contain derogatory information about the individuals involved? Sree 3 A, Well, no. SECRET = [proisoryrom [ _ Geldford bar, HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 68
S i a 2 z 3 é 4 5 6 7 8 g 10 il ; 12 3 é a 13 Fa) & : 14 15 16 7 18 - 19 ° 8 21 g 22 : 23 3 25 HY 50955 Docld: oe sECRET 67 | | | , | j i i H i : | | Q Well, the .AMOTS were going to be the intelligence - | service of Cuba? | , A Right. 0. And they obviously were going to perform some functio in addition to recruitment of agents? A Right. 0. I take it they were trained in counterintelligence, gathering of positive intelligence, recruitment and all of the traditional skills, is that correct? A: That is about right. | 0. So I trust that they had files that were amassed for | SECRET ~— Photecopy from | Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 69
Mane {Area 202) $44-60U0 ol eo on WARD & PAUL 20003 eal 22 » Woastiogton, OC 23 24 VIO F test Stecet, S.E 20 HY 50955 Docld: ~~ 2d Hee Nous OR de 8 purposes other than recruitment? A - Well == 0. For example, let me ask you this. Were any of these files on Cubans who were suspected or thought to be a possible internal security problem? A. No. No. Thev didn't keep those types of files. We | would simply task them with through your sources what do you have on so and so. They would not be told the reason why we | | wanted the information on anvbodv. 0. Well, I quess it is difficult to 20 | make generalizations about the kind of information that is in those files? A Well, that is right. 0 So I guess I won't ask vou to do so, but I want to as vou this. I trust that there is the possibility that some of tory information? A. I would assume so. 0, And that so much of them may -= some of the subjects of those files may now be American citizens? A Right. 0. And finally I take it that no effort has been made to studv that particular situation? | 1 these files do contain what vou in the trade refer to as deroga~ H | | A. WELL, we did make an effort to do it at one time, i | f \ f SECRET . coraid rord Library 32275454 Page 70
Phone (Area 202) 524-6000 WARD. & PAUL 16 | 1? 1é6 24 410 First Sircel, S.E., Washington, O.C. 20003 £9 HY 50955 Docld: SE CRET ‘Photocopy from | + SECRET 69 | | | | 0. Excuse me, off the record. | (Off the record discussion) | MR. MANFREDI: Back on the record. | BY MR. MANFREDI: 0 Towant to straighten out confusion in my own mind | where these files presently reside. The cards I take it are | presently here in Washington? | A. The cards and what is left of the files. 0. That is the soft cover files? | A Yes. 0 And += A I assume they are either here or down at the | Records Center. | 0. And where is the computer svstem? | A You mean our machine system? We have -- | 0, The machine here that vou tried to match up with the | | Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 71 —s,
Phone {Arex 202} 544-6000 LO 11 | 12 13 “WARD & PAUL AIG First Street, S.£., Washinglon, O.C. 20003 HY 50955 Bocld yo DSEUKE! . 70 information on the cards? i} i | A Right down on the third floor. uses this particular system. 0. That is not the hvdro svstem? A. Oh, no, no. Hl i en This is a separate -- it i . : | A. This is a complete -- onlv the Latin American Divisi i al | 0, What kind of records -- etrike that, i | | | The AMOTS are Still in existence, aren't thev? | | | AL No. } | 9 Tv thought they were going out in June. | A Well, okav. Thev are on the hooks until June. | 0 I see, | A, But they have all been let go. They were let go == they were all given six months termination bonuses and told to | | go find a Joh. i 0. ‘No they have any facilities, physical facilities, in Miami at this time? | A no. | 0 So thére are no records in Miami? | A. No. No. We broudht all those records back here. | 0. nid the AMOTS have law enforcement responsibilities | in the Miami community? A No. No. | | } } ) ” * = . 0 Anv affiliation with law enforcement groups? Photocopy from Ul SECRET Gerald Ford Library 132275454 Page 72 onl .
Phone (Area 202) $44-6006 WARD & PAUL 416 First Street, $-E., Wasnington, 0.C. 20063 HY 50955 a SEUKEL i+ 1 ! A Hot to my knowledge, 2 i Oo What else did they do, this larger group of AMOTS that) i | Hy 5 : was not doing debriefings? | ne St 20 ! 0. What intelligence gathering activities did they 2) conduct in the Cuban community in Miami? Ly : 29 | A. One. of the big problems we had was within that Cuban 23 community, as I said earlier, were some of the militant anti- 24 Castro groups and this just: drove the FBI and the Coast Guard 25 ana Customs and in general the law enforcement US. Government i | Photocopy f SEC RET ! Gerald Ford Library Docld: 32275454 Page 73
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 cn WARD & PAUL fH CN 24 416 First Street, S-E., Washington, 0.C, 20003 25 ‘militant groups. A number of times raids were aborted, picked ad Bae PRE 8 4a agencies in Miami plus the State government enforcement agencie up the wall and, of course, I guess it was around <= the Government allowed a lot of this to go on for awhile but I guess about 1965 or 1964 they got a little tired of it and they started to tighten up. T am sure the AMOTS were in part responsible for proposing alerting us and in turn we alerted the enforcement agencies when there was going to be a raid against Cuba by one of these up by the Coast Guard or Florida Coastal Patrol or the Bureau, this type of thing. 0 These people were arrested? A. Oh, ves. 0. Prosecuted? A. Not really. 0 Anv of them American citizens? A Not to mv knowledge. . 0. This would be Alpha 66 tvpe groups? A I donit know whether this guy -- well, you know, they are still after this Masferrer and this guy Donestevez. I don' - know if they ever did get him in jail but they had him up on LO | so many charges and he was a Cuban exile that made it big here. He was a boat manufacturer, small boats, but whether he ever served any time or not I don't know... I know he was convicted but he was always walking around Miami when I was there. SECRET HY 350955 Decld: 32275454 Page Ta Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library So
a SECRET i 3 1 I truthfully don't know whether any of these people ever went = 2 ; to jaul or not. a L a A ‘ . * 5 . : 3 3 a Other than identifying operations by militant anti- = if : 4 - Castro groups, what other intelligence gathering did the AMOTS 5 engage in? 6 A. - Well, of course, there was a counterintelligence -- ye I wouldn't call it a project but a counterintelligence. interest 8 . at that time because we knew that thev were infiltrating agents. 9 ; @% Cubans were? 10! A. The Cuban Government. They couldn't do it very well W “ on the airlift because, as I said before, the aged, infirm, and 12 young, but they did infiltrate them by small boat. And I don't oi ' ; : . 2 a 13 -- well, we had knowledge that this was on and we did trv to zs rw) ; « 1A identify those people whom we thought would be suspect. 3 & - 15 i‘ 0 Was that done in cooperation with the. Bureau? , A. With the Bureau, ves. +n - 0. Because of their manpower limitations you folks were a “ in a better position to do it? A Yes, and language-wise, too. That is always a big ” 19 3 i factor. . i Q. And this was conducted through the AMOTS? E i A «Yes. = £2 | Wu " a. How substantial was the counterintelligence operation = no 3: Fs “ in the community? 2 24 : 5 A WElL1, it wasn't that big. They identified not what I ¢ 25 | ( Phot f | | SEC R ET ; Gerald Ford tibrary HY 50955 Docld: 322375454 Page 75
>” SEVREI would call a great. number of suspect infiltrees, but thev did | ; 3 | S 4 t © “ t 5 Ps) él ‘ oe : ‘ 3 2 come up with a few prOmising ones and ones it turned over to the : | cl 5 3 | Bureau, of course, we have no idea what the hell ever happens Vv Fs 4 | to it because, von know, vou just -- unless vou personally know i j | rm | the guy in the Bureau that is handling the case, vou might as | well forget it. You have got too many other things to do. 0. What other positive intelligence gathering activities j i! | 8 | were they engaging in? ; A, Well, as I told vou, one part of them were engaged in | | | g so mreceronse intercept. ~ | 0. Where was that done? ~ | | . 2 1 4 0 9 i < ll A, Yes. . aan +5 | 0. What ere they intercepting? val A Well, originally they were set up to assist with the Loy i . gs : 17 || commo. for the infiltration. “fl Z _ As we phased down the maritime activities, they were made 1g | . . 19 available to intercept Cuban Communications, 7 2 nan | GS 20 0 g 21 3 22 | i | vi < 295 | ° EgkE—>9»9A»A9»299999999n | ‘ . Photocopy from | SECRET ‘Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 322375454 Page 76
Cc > ”~ S 1 8 i = a 2 2 an £ S) é 4 5 6 2 8 9 16 11 5 12 3 q [om @ 13 9 : 14 16 1é - 19 o co S G 20 | ia] 3 21 | 2 22 : 2% ¢ a 3 £4 C ¢ 25 HY 50955 Docld: ~ ad fis “os BSE 8 Now, since they belong to us we could levy ceratin require ments on them if we wanted to, which we did very infrequently because the common interests, -- we have a common interest in | | | | 1 | | F 1 li ‘* MR. MANFREDI: Off the record. (Off the record discussion) MR. MANFREDI: Let's qo back on the record, BY MR. MANFREDI: 0 Were the communications they: were intercepting exclusively foreign communications? A Exclusively foreign communications. a. Were they intercepting any communications, one terminu of which was the United States? A, No. 0. These were basicallv Cuban Government ‘communications? SEC RET 4 Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page ?T7 | 8 |
SEINE § ve i | 2: A. Right. Q t Z | 0. On the Island? ro 2] 2 + “ | A Right. 2 0. Or between the Island and other locations? A, Yes. | i 0 But not between the Island. and the United States? 6 . jl 4 A . No. Let's go off the record on that. . | (Off the record discussion) | 8 1 | BY MR. MANFREDI: if 0, To vour knowledge were the sAMOT:3 engaging in the | [seco of any communications, either that facility or else~ | il | where, in the Miami area or in the southern part of the country? ; 12 | | 3 A. No. < a 13 i 3 | 0, Of other communications? s 14 | | / | A. No. | LS: . . tas ~ 0. Is that their only intercept facility? | | A. (Nods affirmative) { 17 | 0, Do you know of your own personal knowledge -=- strike | Ht i 16 . | that. Po you have anv knowledge of any wiretaps, surveillances,| i é 19 breakins or activities of thqt type other than what we have ce 4 20 | discussed -- ? a A, No sir. - RE | -- that were conducted by the AMOTS? 4 3 25 A. No sir. I want to go off the record a minute. a a Z aa (Off the record discussion) | Q 5 7 25 | - Photocopy from | SECRET Gerald Ford Library | HY 50955 BDocld: 32275454 Page ?é
! SECRET ‘ i BY MR. MANFREDI: i é * z Loi ¢ i 3 p i 0. I understand that a study of the history of the AMOTS 2 | ! a _ | has been prepared by one of vour members. & Sj ; 5 A. That is right. a. 4: - : 0. What is his name? | Si | tf | ; I A I think it is | -- I can't remember the last | ta ' / name. The poor guy is dead now anvway. Well, I will just have | 7 4 I | to get that for you. | oan | / 0 What is the title of the study? | o | i A. The title of the study -- it is part of the historical! LG jf | . | series of the Miami Station and I think it is just entitled "The 11} | | AMOT Organization." | . il | < | 0. What is the historical series of the Miami Station? | ‘ 13 4 : : | Q i A. «<It was done when- was down there. What : 14 3 i we try to do as we go along, from vear to vear, is set aside ~> ke i i what is considered to he some of the more siginificant things 16 | a yi | the station might do or that might occur in the station personne L7H i wise, this tvpe of thing, and-.then these things are written. 12 ii : 0 I see, = 19 : 3 f A. At intervening peridds of time. ' 20 | 0 ! a | 0. When was this particular report prepared, the AMOTS? Egg | & i . ‘ = | A, think it was preAared in 1967 or ‘68. - | . 3 22 | ul i 0. Tt is a fairly lengthy document, isn't it? H Q t A. Yes. 3 24 | = @ And purports to be a fairly complete history of the | ° | 25 | | | i | | | GEC RET Photocopy from ; Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 79
ke 40) Phone (Arca 202) 944-6060 > WARD Ke PALEL 16 1? 1é 20003 20 el aed S.£., Wastangtou, 0.0. 24 TPG tael Gircat, 25 HY 50955 Docld: | | i | of the CIA, SECRET fe | | activities of the AMOTS? | { and obtain it through Nank Knoche's office. | A. Okay. f i | | | | A. It starts back in 1959 when we first started using | this gent.. | 0. First started using what? | A. First started using, I forget what his name was. | a I see. Is it a chronological studv of their activi- | ties? . : | A. Yes. ; | 0 And you have a copy of that in your custody? | A Yes. 0. I would like to see that’ document. And we will try | | 0 Excuse me just for a minute. ; (O£F the record. discussion) | . H MR. MANFREDI: On the record. i BY MR. MANFREDI: I wonder if vou would -= let me ask vou | this. There have been some allegations in the press that prominent newsmen in he Miami area have in the past been agents Mr. Olsen just came into the office and I asked him to join us because some of vour involvement in Cuban activities in the Agency in the Miami area touch peripherally on some of the thing had has been charged with investigating, so I am going to turn the examination over to him for whatever time he needs. we | ‘ Phot fro SEC RET ' Ge rald Ford Library 32275454 Page 30
oad os eae BS Es MR. OLSEN: Thank vou, Seorge. | 4 BY MR. OLSEN: “ : C Can vou begin, since I have net been in on the begin- ss So ; z ‘ning of the interview here, can vou start off, Mr. Sturbitts, Z 4 . | by giving me ahout a one or two minute resume of what your contacts were with the Cuban elements in Florida and elsewhere withing this country on behal= of the Agency? 7 ; A. Well, I was a member of the Special Activities Staff | which was in effect the Cuban task force at Headquarters and the g Miami Gtation functioned under the Special Activities Staff in | 1c . a varietv of intelligence collection and operations. | ~~ a Who was the head of the Special Activities Staff? | 4 le . 3 A Desmond Fitzgerald. yi 13 | 3 9, And who was his immediate superior? . a A Dick Bissell. fxcuse me. No. At that time it was | ““ Dick Helms. He was the DEP. 16 - el Deputy Director for Plans? iL : _ \ A Deptuty Nirector for Plans. . . t ~ 0 What period of time are we talking about now? _ “ 19 ; . 4 3 A. We are talking in the period of 1963 to 1965. a MR, MANFREDI: Off the record. 2 oe : (Off the record discussion) = : BY MR. OLSEN: 4 *. i Bs : . . . . ° . * . Q So vou were not involved in this Special Activities NS aa Group during the 1959 to ‘Sl period? ATQ darct Street, A NO. Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 DBocld: 32275454 Page 61
a Or ¢ aa NO. And “7 | the same time te NO. Q Do vou know what the vosition was Mr. Hunt occupied he period leading up *o the Bav of Pigs? | | vou were not involved in this program at all during that E. Howard Hunt was involved in it? | +3 3 connection with the Cuban onerations of the Agencv during the : period of 1959 to '51? Fas cS S 71 oS ~~ t o ~ fa 3 < oy 5 Lt oO é & fo) é 2 MS a fo Te a 7 7 ~~ ” oO , 1s 2 id ” — & Le 2 z ¢ ~ 3 dite a0 1é 71 rm _1 ac . * is rt wi o 3 oO, 3 o7 = Ko de > 3 Se 3 71 - : Pa - Kod ~ ? 3B ~ OA - 2 Pats = 5 25 A To my recollection, Howard Hunt was on the Covert Action Start dealing in propaganda. 0. Was this country? A No. a And Bav of Pigs? aed that. I don't know. HY 30955 Decld: 327275454 Page 6&2 ZT would have to review the record to really answer this propaqanda directed to the Cuban people in Cuban people abroad. what-was his connection with the planning for the a Didn’t he spend an awful lot of time in the Miami area? | A He commuted quite a bit. . ! 0. Between Vashington and -= : A Washington and Miami. : a ~- and Miami. During the périod of 1969 and early : "61? a Right. | % Mr. Hunt has stated in his interviews and in his | SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library ny _ —_——
}- 2 . organizing a political unit among Cubans in this country which 3 Cc 9 3 ? oe] - w 2 O { a 2 roe 4 3 = a a qn oH y : files relating & 5 between the Aqency and Frank Sturqis? wt A Yes. +4 G Or Frank Fiorini? ao A. There is no relationship. 2 Pa - 0, Pa lz ~ , 2 € a 3 14 ,- . Rature with Frank Sturgis? A 14 1? 0 _ testimony . A Extremely emphatic. i9 3 0 o . ale 3 20 3 5 27 ‘ 5 F A. Exactly. 2 ee 3 0 Fai . a 2 23 ! 3 3b a F 2 A 7 25 HY 50955 DBocld: 322375454 published where that was? That could be quite true. Have vou reviewed, “Mr. Sturbitts, the Agency's entire apy ey “ie GG, ie materials that he was the person who was in charge of = } would constitute the Cuban government in exile. Do vou recall in anv wav to the Cuban operations and particu- ‘ larly with reference to wnether they reflect anv contacts Ts it vour testimony that the records and files of To my knowledge that is true. the Agency reveal no official or unofficial contact of any I take it from that that vou are emphatic in your that he was never an employee of the Agency? And vou are also equally emphatic to the effect that he was never a contract acent of the Agency? Do vou know whether he ever served in the capacity of being an informer or informant to the Agency? It is possible that he could have been a source. Page 63 SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library en ee rr
Pitune (Area 202) 5-44-GO00 WARD & PALER Wisstiitiyiooe, 0 ©. 20603 Sk, ALO 8 bese Sie cat, HW 50955 ' 2 in GH ER Re 6 , a) YOu mean a source of -~ + 4 9 A Source of information of another aqent. Another : | agency agent. Vv Fi Hy . a a Mo the files of the Aqency reflect anv matter? ef A, To my knowledge I don't recall anvthing like that but P : it is entirely possible that shat could have happened without % i being a matter of record. it ay at . . . . 8 : 0 Do the files of the Acency reveal anv instance what- q | ever in which Frank Sturcis was ever asked to undertake anv. V0 j kind of an operation or activity on behalf of the Agencv? cae .- | 3 To my knowledge, nothing. tol 4, Do the files of the Agencv reveal anv evidence am +l . t ri . ; ; ; iz | whatever that Frank Sturgis was ever paid anything directly or a indirectly bv the Aqencyv? a Pe To mv knowledge, no. a a Now, when vou sav “to mv knowledge, no", in answer a to some of these questions, do I understand that to mean that you are giving us the full benefit of vour knowledge on the 1é ‘basis of a full review of the Agencv's records and files? 19 ! . — A On Prank Sturgis, ves, 2C . 1 . Q Okav. DPuring the veriod of time that vou were with 21 4 the Soecial Activities Group from 1963 to '66, first of all, 2e | ~ "can vou tell us when that beaan in 1963? 23! : A. When the Special Activities Group -- 24 . 4 o No. When vour contact with the Special Activities 25 J : Ge 7 SECRET too Library Docld:32275454 Page 64
ew Em “GE H fas B 3 3 °° Group began? Q A, It beqan -- well, it beqan around June of '63. Phone (Area 202) 444 : 0. Now, with particular reference to the last half of i) 1 1963, including whatever veriod in June '63 mav not have been as involved, were there a qreat manv Cubans in the southern United 3 ' States who were active in revolutionary fronts that were beind y | sponsored by the Agency? yoo 2 A Wellm vou mean Acency sponsored fronts? ao 0. Yes. -. | A, The Agencv subsicéized these fronts in an effort to -. | have unity rather than these split factions, split anti-Castro i | yo | factions. Obviously the leaders-of the fronts knew that the 7 pare ip < i a Los * 12 | CIA was subsidizing. Supposedly the people that joined these | arn) a ‘ . < ._, , fronts did not know they were being subsidized by the Agency 3 ae - ‘| -- / or the U.S. Government. -. 4 a But when vou say “supposedly,” does the fact appear 26 ~ _~ i to be otherwise? __ 4 a. WELL, based on mv axperience with the Cubans and this ~O . q . ; ; . ,, . type of thing, and their penchant to talk, I would think that 2 19 3 ; 5 aa at wouldn't take long for xnowledqde of any subsidy to surface G3 au z al 3 32 | 0 Was it your opinion and impression at that time, Mr. r ox, Sturbitts, that a qreat many Cubans considered themselves to be = Ka 5 . A i involved in the CIA orqanizations? 3 eA id = i - 2 25 i a Yes Photocapy from ~ | ' Gerald Ford Library | SECRET HY 50955 Decld: 32275454 Page 85
a , reference to New Orleans. yu A. There was some Cuban presence in New Orleans. I am i . 2 : really not familiar with what happened in New Orleans that was we i} > } Sort of a sideshow to Miami, an -. |! 0 But the same is -~ it is possible that some of the i . rl « . oo. x ‘ ~ -- # Same Cuban organizations which were being sponsored or funded www it Hi -o i ov the Agency also had activities or operations in New Orleans? Bi -. A I don't know if I can answer that, whether they had s =~ 2 vo ; : . : z _— the same functions. = «now that some funding arrangement for 2 ~t . : 2 Subsidizing the orcanizations in Miami was carried out through -; | New Orleans. and 0 Well, can vou he more specific about what vou mean a _. by that? ~ ie 5 5 ec 5 22 ca we . A —_ 3 oO = ae - 25 8 Le Qo And again with particular reference to the Miami z i . a ‘i ~ z 2 4 area? a i 3 4 : = ‘ A, Yes. 2 aod “0. Was there also Cuban activity of this sort elsewhere in the United States? I am asking now particularly with SECRET HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 86 f Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
Pikooe (Area 202) 544-4000 a 2 < Ed a 0. How about David Yerrie? Was he ever connected with & _. the Agency in anv manner at all in providing funds or assistance). rs PAG) i a . 1 = to Cubans or Cuban crouns? 3 27 . : 2 th 5 Tv + & a A I couldn't sav. = am just not familiar with -- we had! z Ge ul a, 2 Great many people that did this. FA oo a, How about Clay Shaw? Was Clay Shaw ever used as a id 2a | = . funding source? , 2 ne 7 ZO : Photocopy from” . SECRET ’ Gerald Ford Library . | \ HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 67
3 = - 3 : s —_ vr Aa cael ao is a te 3 = x ~ 7 pal = A - “eS C - g c rm f a Q ‘ 6 Z wee Ta 4 as 2 r¢ 4 Le z 2 is ao Le 7_m™ ac : “oO So 3 7: ant F £C 2 7 ioe Cd 3 rt 2 22 - 2 2 _ uw ~ a4 x pane ~ Os ~ a ew down in ae think Career Management Group Staff. 0 BY a? Be tes BY. Een a ‘ This I do not know either. Pardon? This I don't know. MR. MANFREDI: Where would that information be available? Well, we have a cuy that used to work with me who was New Orleans at that ‘ime. He would probablv know. Is he in the nuildina? What is his name? Yes. MR, OLSEN: Who is sith now? Which department? He is stiil with the pDpo. MR. MANFREDI: Western Hemisphere Division? , ' Mo. He is on one of the staffs. Ue is on the == I Is he officed near vou? i No. He is cown in the basement. MR, OLSEN: ‘ | SEC Red Photocopy from . . Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 68
pA to c=4 7 4 7 2 4 A a et 3 = x g 3 Os, mm ft = S 3 7c J tw 3 < vas Fe} awe 4 = ~. Te FS Lee au TR as as tM 4 adv 2 Pa oa . i. oO = a my 2 ot = ae F = Ao 4 KS rt ui wt - ~_ ee a ~ aon a Ke S on ot T ae) a thes ters OD fie if A, No. No, Totaily unfamiliar with anything that took . llace in New Orleans. 0, I take it that Frank Sturgis was never an intermediary q for providing funds «to the Cuban fronts? A, The files chat Ihave don't reflect it. 0 I think we covered this already tust a few minutes agq | but let me make sure that we have got it on the record. 1 —~ Tt understood vou to sav that it was vour impression in 196 Cuban exiles, Cuban peonie in the southern that large numbers of United States, talked ahout and believed that thev were invoived in the CIA sponsored activities. Is that true? a, That is right. “0. Was it also vour understanding and vour impression — that there was a qood deal of talk among this Cuban element in the southern United States about plans or vrospects for the assaSSination of Fidel Castro? A I would sav no. = don't think there was -- you have They lost got to remember chat these people were embittered. their nossessions, they lost everything and they} * i their homeland, it }— all on one man. ' - SECRET blamed Photocopy from . Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 69
Prose: (Aste QO) bet - OOO WAHL a PAL POG Ve wtsnngbar, 2) €. ie, tabbed, Ves cana WW 50955 ap Cr CFI a C13 it@) t fl t? it us “<Q b- (i fe ty) nh Cr a AY bo on Doclid: FF a ‘| \ wad Bay Meee TS. he 0, That is Fiedl Castre? A, That is right, and they would probably verbally do anything they could to det rid of him. a Was there a iot of talk about killing Castro among these Cubans? A I would sav amona the Cuban exiles there probably was fu a lot of talk about thac. 0 Did vou participate vourself in the overhearing of such conversations? A. Wo. 0. Was this a matter of something that was reported to you? A. . Well, it was -=— I really don't remember what the source of it was but I know in mv discussions with people at the Station and Zrom mv visits down there and that tvpe of thing that this subject alwavs came up. ‘hat were they going to do with Fidel? How are thev qoing to get rid of him and this type of thing. TI don't mean the Aqdency veople. This is what the Cuban exile community was discussing. ® | Yes. fea vou know what Howard Hunt was doing for the Agency in 1963? t seems to me he was here at Headquarters in fe. A Well, '§3 and I think he was assigned to the European Division of the DDP. This is vour hest recollection -- > Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 90
}-4 = Tv do Pact (AMrena Du a “2 Or on Ps fal sO WALEED A Po bo >>) -.} t= ea) (i i wo 2O004 a Wardimegton, Ge VED a dead Ueeat, t HW 50955 Docld: ue dhe “at 8 hs 2 A Yes. 0 ~~ at the moment. Is it possible that he was with Domestic Operations Division in the field of proprietaries engaged -- A. I guess vou are right, ves. I believe he was there. 0. Did vou personaliv know Howard Hunt? A. Ho. 0. Never mer Aim? AL Iomet him. nat is all. TI can't say I know him. a You would not nave known anvthing about his where- abouts on anv particular fav, then. Is that true? A. Can we go off the record? (Off the record discussion.) THE WITNESS: het‘s qo back on the record. ‘i BY MR. OLSEN: i Qa I would like to have it on the record. i A Do you have a narticular day? 0, Mo. I am just asking vou if vour acaquanitance with Hunt was such that vou would have known of his whereabouts on “ anv particular dav. i , | st | A, 0. Q Was it verv infrequentlv that vou ever saw him? i ss ; : . i A. Oh, IT would see nim in the halls, this type of thing, Hl i i but -- bumo into hin nerhans downtown on the street. ! fi 4, But vou would nave no occasion for. knowing from one SECRET - Photocopy rom | Gerald Ford Library 32275454 Page 91
WARD & MALE UO Veusbiagicsie, ba Ol. Lin, Addl, BAG Daal a HY 50955 Phoue {Area 202} 544-6000 oy <2 Os As W3 id i! Cat t é 17 ' tet I ' ive) -Q wh C31 2 Mw ay) a rie) Lo) ua? hen Ms TM, Bes dav to the next where he was? 0. Have vou ever conducted any kind of inquiry on behalf of the Agency as to where ne was on November 22, 1963? A Yes. 0 And when did sou conduct that incuiry? A. Io have done it twice that I recall and the most recent one was I guess -- I am gust trying to think. Well, it wasn't too long ago necause we did have an inquirv and we obtained the: 1 1 time and the attendance records from the Office of Finance which showed that Howard Nunt was on sick leave on that dav. Q. Was this just fairlv recently? A Yes. fn, I understood from what files I have seen, Mr. Sturbitts, that the only records that were available from the Office of Finance showed that he had had nine hours of sick lea during the two-week vav ceriod ending the 23rd of November but that the records were not available as to how much sick leave or annual leave hac been taken on any particular dav. A. Well --. 9, Am I mistaken? A As I recall, ne was in a dutv status one dav and a sick leave status the next day and back to duty the next dav. I would have to check that vith my Budget and Fiscal Officer, He is the chan that cot that for me.. | Photocopy from ; SECRET Gerald Ford Library Docld: 322775454 Page 92 a
ee? Gis “Mat MS im c 3 1 0 Can vou check that for us? : & 4 Z 5 0. And give us the results of that? 2 7 A Yes. ~ | . “. . : > 2 [ BS f, Because this is much more detailed information than i a I have been previoulv aware is available in the files of the 9 Agency. a A. All right. I will do that. Le 9 BY MR. MANFREDI: ; a Q. Do vou want to make a note of that? ; a | a a Let me have a piece of paper. 15 al YOu might also want Mr. Sturbitts' phone number which | ra : ~ | 5 ,, is 351f] 4 5 _. THE WITNESS: That was 22 November, right? z Le a BY MR. MANFREDI: a 0. That is the dav. A, 1963. 17 _. a. In response to whose inauiry was that investigation 1é made? 2 A I don't know. I would have to look that up, too. I 7 don't recall exactly whe asked for it. I don't know whether -- “ I~will just have to check that. I don’t know who it was. al And the date? Do vou have anv idea when vou made the ae) tA inquiry? ay) Ps» a, No. But Ican find out from the B and F guy, hopefull: 410 birsi Sircer, S-E., Washington, DC. wt tw on O i ig a ee ween ere Re A ee | Sec > a Photocopy from . Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 33
1 0. You said there was a previous inquiry? 2 A. Yes, The previous inquiry came from | | i i who is now retired and was at that particular time the Chief of Cr 2 3 v 7 v a & ra) “ 3 y q = o 3 z BS European Division. 5 0. When was that inquirv received? 6 A, That was about a vear ago, I guess. 7 .. BY MR. OLSEN: 8 Q, About the first time these photographs began to be 5 circulated? 16: A. Yes. + 0. About the bums in Pallas? 12 A, Yes, and actually I think this --[ | nquiry x 72 : came from some magazine or newspaper man in Europe. ] was . cS me : v4 catefiot station, | zor a long time and he apparently made a lot of acquaintances over there among the media. re This is something vou are relating to Der Sterm 4 Maqazine? | _ a That is right, | ; 19: 0. And did I understand vou to sav that in checking with | : 50 - the Office of Finance that it was positively ascertained that | 21 Hunt was on sick leave on November 22nd? ! : | A, Well, I will have to check that. That is the way | = Ae, il - ; ; 4 23 I understood it but 1! did cet this through our Budget people wng 24 have the contact with the Office of Finance. ; i q, And that he was on annual leave the day before? a3 tn Photocopy from | SECRET Gerald Ford Library HY 350955 Decld: 327275454 Page 94
i - ‘ S F 3 | Q H 3 ~ | 3 4 es “i ~ ao 5 c | 5 I! 3 - | t oY e if = t 3 ” cad , t a Le at i ay ~ Ww L 7 fot 1 } ‘h - S i Y z 4 GQo4 wos ii i sr} | % ' 12: 2 f > ' ¢ ? a al Ts 4 % bot 5 | x ! Pi _. 22nd = a7 ome i .. 7 memo a_o4 \ 7 a 2s | } ~aA : J . oa] ~~ ° i 3 : Ot an 3 we ci z en! = 1 = 3% 29 4 2 BG ae a wy - Pat ad . we ai 3 4 ba i “a . _ OF 3 a a3 cn “HW 50955 Doclda: 32274454 A No. He was on a duty status the day before, on sick leave, and then on duty status ‘the following day. BY MR. MANFREDI: 0. Was there any effort to determine what Mr. Hunt's previous pattern with respect to sick davs had veen? A {Nods in necative) BY MR. OLSEN: 9, November 22, 1963, was a Fridav. When you sav that records reveal that te was on a duty status the next day -- Ay It was a Dridav. Then I was mistaken. 0 Does that mean he was on duty the following Mondav or on the next dav, Saturday? A No. On the following Mondav. I didn’t realize the was a Friday. a Will vou check that thing for us-and give us a brief together with whatever supporting <= copies of supporting documents vou can find? A, Okav. 4. AS promptiv as nossible on this auestion. 4 think that covers the subject matter, AR. MANPREDT: I can sive vou another moment if you want. | Can vou think of anvthind else? MR. OLSEN: I think that is all. MR. MANFREDI: Okav. Off the record. (Off the record discussion) ‘ Photocopy f mS SECRET Gerald Ford Library Page 95
1 BY MR. MANFREDI: Q 4 0. foam sorry for the [+t | I think Probably I saved vou ! interruption but over’ the long Some time WO (Ata Dap) 244 -O Guo Cel Wart a PALEL Wastragtont, Onc, 20003 vi Stace, SL, Vladias 6 HY 50955 Doecld: 327275454 Page 9 Photocopy from SE CR EF Gerald Ford Library
folos msl Pane {Area 202) 544-6000 WARD & PAL, VIG Foret Steaet, S-E., Washinygtan, O.C. 26003 Ce cn oO sO j ae] fai i. f4 Cn oe mH fa, 2 oa) m™ }— ‘OD wy cn 9 We talked with about fronts, erganizations? HW 50955 DocId:32275454 Page 97 caret a volutionary fronts. SECRET sir.Olsen for a short period of time How large were these Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
1 mbh 2 96 8 t $ it ¢ i A Well, the membership varied. As I said, we were Pa) "I s eg} 8 principally interested in the leadership of the orcanizations. é i < 5 ae ; - ; . 2 j; Once the organization was established and the leadership took g é 4: oo, over, then thev would take care of enlisting the, © guess, 3 . oe , ; _ getting membershio from the Cuban exile community to join. 6 _ Soe . ; : 2 What were tneir functions, the fronts? ae ; ; A Well, it was to bring some unity out of this chaotic: 1 8 ; . + oo . . ; thing of the splinter groups and get -- as I said, it was a g ; , dDelitical organization in exile. iS * Sas - . ie) Did they conduct any operations? a A No, not that I know of. 3 i! Q Just like a political varty? a i, a ag 4 . tose Q ‘ A Like a colitical party. & 3 = a) How many of these fronts were there? ~~ A There were several of them. I really don't remember “© ‘the names of them. The FRD was one. The Revolutionary 27 4 : - . : Democratic Front. I guess that was probably the biggest one. ““sAnd’ there were some others. 12 an . o ~e 9 The RD?? Ss 7 - N ‘y 3 20 a FRD. 5 O71 3 Seb 9 I sée. 3 20 | _ ; . | A Front Revolutionary Democratic. It is the ul " 3 “| Demecratic Revolutionary Front. : le 9 All right. Are these groups still in existence? + 25 H ' . - so . | A fowoulad think not. I really don't. know. i t t SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Bocld: 32275454 Page 98
97 . oS abh 3¢ 1: a 9 Ts there a CIA station in Puerto Rico? g S i A No. There was but there isn't any more. There a S| \ > : | hasn't been one there for years. z 4% tne fe) When was Lt disbanded? . A I think the station was established around 1958 6 and -- perhaps it was established before that. I think it | went out of existence in 1958. 8 i 2) Do vou snow whv it went out of existence? ‘I Q 3 xy Tos ia rT A te 4 i “ A NO, £ uon't. =f don't have anv idea. 1c ; 2 Do vou xnow what function it was performing? aa - . . t+ 5 A Yods in necative.) oF © + « : : ie i 2 You mentioned earlier that Bernard Barker worked < z a dot in the Cuban community for the CIA? 3 =z < v4 ae) 2 Was ne cerforming any intelligence function in the 16. community? Li? A Intellicence functions. Nell -- LE 3 Was ne collecting information? “ io A Sure. If he got information that he thought was G 20 | worthwhile he would 2ass it on. a : 3 21. a Now, would ne have been considered one of the three 2 22" or 500 nersons emploved or assigned to the Miami Station? “a 2 < <7 ie 2s aA Yes. He was a contract employee. a t : ; aa: . . 3 24: 9 Ana were intelligence requirements levied on such a 2 t + 25 fi contract emplovees? ; Photocopy from , : SEC RET Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page $9
| e | 3 1 : ~ 4 A Normally, the recuirements are vretty standard, yr A 2: . 2 rf or they were at that time. But here again, you always have | < “ ad hoc type things that pop up from time to time, and have to z 4 | be surfaced. 5 - oe a . “ a) Some of cthese contract employees were, then, in 6 the business of ceilecting intelligence information in the 7 Cuban communities in Miami. 8 A Right. 9 9 Now, 2 think we finished with the AMOTS but can ic you think of any cther functions performed by the AMOTS that in. we have not discussed in the course of the afternoon? eo! . . 4 le : A Ho, not really. Uo. 3 le 9 I think vou oreviously described them for me as the 3 is eves and ears into the Cuban community. Le A Right. | Lé a And they actually had a physicai facility in Miami | 17 which was their headquarters, did they not? le A Exactly. | a 19 em) And there was a CIA Case Officer who managed to super- 2 : 3 ~ | 3 ec. vise that facility. 2 21 A Yes. = 22° 9 How, what has nappened to -the AMOTS? v4 ~ = . . 4 = Ze A The AMOTS were cradually phased down and will go cay i 3 a 24 out of existence -- the AMOTS are out of existence, aren't > 25 thev? Isn't it the AMDUKES or ~= these are the radio. people. HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 100 2 Gn “EE 5 tip B SECRET | Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library
Cel > = = = 2 v g a 5 2 a 3 2 < 5 6 7 8 9 1¢ li ; 12 16 17 16 : 19 : 25 Ps 2 And the AMDUKES are the AMOTS? A The AMDUKES are AMOTS but they are radio people. A Yes. The only reason we use two different names ! =nese things in those cays we had to have Mh is that in each co a project which nad to be renewed every vear to get the funding. 0) S50 AMDURKE and AMOT -- A S¥YnOnNVMOUsS. 9) -- are crvotonyms? oA Yes. 9 Do the initials stand for anything other than -- A No. Just Sick them out. If you want to enerypt somebody you just call downstairs and they give you a crypt. You con't nave anything to do with it. The AM happened atycnat particular time to be the Cuban diograph. Sd SECRET photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 101
} Phone (Area 262) 544-6000 Cri d> WARD & PAUSE, - hw hes ro Ps Ct fay) ee I in 20 21 22 | FIO Garst Siseet, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20063 uh i} AI i HW Hi i | i | | | SEVUREI 100 S all foreign nationals? A All foreign nationals. a Was there anv check made to determine whether any of them were American citizens? A We levied on the Secret Service as a requirement that they have identified these ceople by nationality before we would run a name trace. Inadvertently, at one time they Gid submit a list, a rather long list of American citizen whicn we promptly sent mack to them and told them we could not trace. And this vractice was followed both in 1968 and a 1972? A That is right. ; Q And where were these names traced? A They were traced back here and aiso in Miami. The Miami Station did their name check and we did our name check here. In the case of Cubans, probably the Miami Station haa information on the Cubans than we would have back here. more a But the names were traced through Agency files? SEC RET Photocopy from , Gerald Ford Library 1 HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 102 9 Jere these seople on whom name traces were requested
| j i . ~ 2 | soh 18 1 A g | A 1 a 2 3 9 3 Z 3 on this i a | A | 5 Q |! 6 1 check - 7 ; A i 8 | Q 9 | A 16 | ad EN 11 | ° ij ; 12 be a se Z : 13 2 a i 3 14 | | a) 25 fi - 16 |i | ary convent A 18 o 5 19 5 5 A 5 20° z there. i 21 4 ; rather = 23 | 3 24 = of the 2 25 eood Hes “ot BM, HE 8 Through Agency files. Yas Secret Service receiving cooperation from FBI as well? Oh, ves. And in effect,they were getting an all-Agency name Right. ' ~- on people who might pose a security threat --~ Yes. “~~ to a candidate? Well, they were Just trying to cetermine who might curity threat. That is right. Potential threat. Yes. For what political parties ~=- strike that. In 1968 was this service provided for both political lons? Both political conventions. Were they both held in Miami that year? No. I guess it was in 1972 thev were both held Iothink it was lust the Democratic in 1968. These recuests did come from the Secret Service than -- From the Secret Service and it was -- the Director Secret Service came to the DCI and asked him for Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library - SECRET HW 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 103
2 3 =} é v 3 a a 2 a a a < Q £ ¢ FA » cn WARD & PAUL i + nH cn 3 a : ~“ 16 | 19 | 20 | S.E., Washingion, D.C. 20003 raw) pan 410 First Streei, support. 90 you still maintain the records with respect <o xO that tracing activity? A I have all the names that have been traced. 2 And they are on little cards down in your files? 4 Yes, 9 Why have those records been maintained? Is there any reason those records nave seen maintained? A “ell, because we were told to maintain them when the Watercate thing broke, 2 I see. A And since then nobody will destroy anything. Q OX. Are vou aware o¢ any Dicketing at various slaces in the country that has been conducted by Cuban > ite} hy O c 2) #3) seer A 0 was not aware of it until I was told of it. I still don't know whether this was a spontaneous action on the part of these reople or whether they were instructed to t do it. I tried to run that down and I have been unable to, At what locations has it been reported that Pickets kD were located? A Airline of place. I forget where it was. ) Have you in fact been able to verify that these Persons were Cubans? , Photocopy from SECR ET Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld:32275454 Page i104 fices in New York, Miami. I think another tn a
Phone (Atea 202) 544-6000 dn WARD & PAUL kr tna a cn 17 18 ‘19 20 el Washington, O.C, 20003 22 SLO First Surcet, SLE 1 i , ‘ i i i ( | ug? tie Yeas BM Bo E A Well, it is a matter of record in the AMOT history that this indeed did take vlace. ‘iow, what I have been trying GS to determine is whether the On-Site Case Officer authorized this,which I fully doubt. 9) who was the On-Site Case Officer?. A At that time it was a fellow by the name of Tony Sforza. 9 Is he still alive? A Yes, he is down in Miami. But I just do not know whether this was a4 unilateral action on the part of the AMOTS against the countries that were then trading with Cuba, notably Spain and Great Britain and France. 9 Other than this incident which we -- strike that. What kind of an investigation have you conducted? pe! a = nave taiked to people, which is really all you can de. There is no other way vou can do it. 3 You have been unable to determine who, if anyone, authorized this activitv? Have you been able to identify any of the persons who participated in the picketing? A MO. 9 With what frequency did this activity occur? A tT don't have any idea. I only know of one instance. Q This was in New York City? A New York City anda Miami. 2 Do you know of any organized political activity that | SEC RET | Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 105 | | | | : |
Phone (Area 202) 544-6000 Cl Wo oy WARD & PAUL no m fe on 20003 22a a Washington, O.€. Ro 24 11G Fest Stroel, S.E HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 106 | ae Eee es Bf 3 . , 104 the AMOTS engaged in? A To my knowledge, they didn't engage in any. Q Any political activity. Do you know of any other activities that they have conducted within this country, they or any of their members have conducted within this country that we have not already discussed this afternoon? A No. Qo Any political activities? Any operations? a No. Not really. Of course, we have used certain select individuals to what we call hand-hold defectors, Cuban defectors. In other words, live with them until they are MY chey engaged in. But other than that, I can't think of any- is) thing else. t o Do you know of any criminal activities that have been attribited to -- By I have heard of some allegations which have never been sroven. < 9 What are the alleqations? A The alleaqations concern break-ins and surveillances and this tyoe of thing. oO Have those allecations been made with any fre- quency? S Well, = forget who it was. It was during the SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library es esettied and this type of thing. And this is another activit + f
tj? Crt ° 6 co) ed i a vw is my ° N a 2 q = 2 ¢ Pa = a> 13 WARD & PAUL +4 oh ke Nn 2 pb? 431G First Street, S.E., Wastiagton, O.c. 20003 Watergate trial. Some of these allegations that came out and I think they were carried in the Anderson column but we made file checks and this type of thing. One particular activity was supposed to nave been carried out in Rockefeller Center in New York and it turns out it was taken out of it was 2 training mission and -- =raining exercise. context. These guys were being trained in Surveillance in New York and they were simply asked to 7 Chase Manhattan and so come back out and then they were some -~2yvout of the bank. And this to of chem meant casing the sank when in fact it was just eé memory exercise. 2 With what frequency were those kinds of training exercises conductad? a Well, vhenever there was an -- whenever it was that these veople, selectad individuals, were to be trained in trade craft. 3 And did their -=rsade craft craining include such things as surveillance? a cure. 2 And break-ins? A No. ot sreak-ins. Nor Surreptitious entry. As I said, in the case of this sarticular thing, it was misinter- preted as casing the bank. These exercises were given -- they could have walked into veur oifice, vour outer office and- SECRET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 107 go into a branch of the Manhatta ee me eet 1
Phone (Area 262) 544-6000 sO on WARD & PAUL I 4 of C3 k J qn pt >} 20 21 22 29 24 410 First Street, S.E., Washington, 0.C. 20003 | | i I | 3 | | if ad Bon Yas OT His 8 106 Said -~ the instructor could have said two hours later tell ya me what is in that outer office? What is the layout of it? This is just for observation. 9 You stated earlier none of those allegations have nt ~ been proven. ilave any of them been proved to your satisfaction? A Mo. Ithink we disproved them to my satisfaction. 9 I take it vou do not believe they took place other than the training exercise? A Qh, no. No. I don't believe they dic. 3 Do you know of any instances where members of that group have broken in, made any other type of illegal entry in this ccuntry? A No. 2 - dave you ever been present at any discussions of the legality or illegality of maintaining stations like the t'iami Station within this. country? A Legality? Yo. a How about the propriety? A Nell, to my knowledge, that really never came up. No one to mv knowledge, has ever questioned the legality or the propriety of having the Station.” 9 There have been some allegations in the press and elsewhere about possible misuse of Cuban exiles, members of that community, by the CIA. Are vou aware of those? SEC RET Photocopy from Gerald Ford Library HW 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 106
‘sh 13 3 a = a ~ rs 2 T | ee Phone (Area 202) 544-6006 Gl om) tH nes }-4 WAHD & PAUL ed on | ol ~3 L& al 22 | S.E., Washingion, D.C. 26003 29 24 20... aa Bog Yas Tlie B | L107 NO. ot 2 We received some correspondence and I have seen some articles that suggest that the Cuban community is sort of i i : . ~ . t a resource that is occasionaily tapped by the CIA for various i operations in this country. You mean this country? ' at 4 ! 2) Yes. Picketing was one example. There were aiso some | other examples of unusual activities. Do you have any snowledce of use by the CIA cf Cuban nationais or exiles for any typ of operation wlthin this country? A NO. -) Do you know whether or not the Agency has provided any financial support for Cuban businessmen in this country? ; 3 Mo. Not to my Knowledge. 3 Other than the maintenance of cover? , ' i a NO. i H i Establisnment of Dusinesses? | A No. ») No? t > Yo 2 in the course of our discussions today we discussed | the: AMOTS, the AMDUKES, various oolitical front groups, revolutionary front croups. Are there any other emigre, Cuban amigre groups in the Miami area which have been supported by the Agency, either financially or otherwise? SEC R ET | Photocopy from , | Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 109
aap te a BN ie , 108 | 1 | A Not to my knowledce. ! . o So oe < B . . . = 2 ) Are you familiar with the appendix that was seal 2 nN i ~ z 3 || ‘to Mx. Colby?s statement? 2 Z 4 | A Yes. f i . + . » 5 i ) Did you nave some role in drafting that? | i | 6 | A You mean the Miami Station thing? ~ | i ; } al -. ~ . - ‘ : ‘ 7 | 9 Appendix J, entitled, “The Miami Station”. . | YW 9 [ Q You wrote it? | | | j 4 Yes. 10 | ; i . rae . A = i 11 | 29 It has a famiiiar ring about it. There are reference y2/ te indigenous organizations, emigre organizations. Are | 3 } . i < * . a 13 | there any others other than the ones we have been discussing? | & i < 14 A Jot to my knowledge. here are, you know, if you | 2 i i . a want, to. call.it an ordanization, we did, vou know, subsidize | whe teh | 16 chevRelleout of Juanita Castro. W | Q | Yes, I am familiar with that. Lf} 16 | A You are familiar with all that and that is by the board now,: toc. a 19 | 2 > Ee) Sne was. doing -- — 5 20 Ps = } A Propaganda. 3 al |i oO 5 9 -- oropaganda broadcasts... 2 a2 .. i ref : 2 3 3 : Photocopy from SECRET Gerald Ford Library HY 50955 Docld:32275454 Page 110
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sECRET 1ll Phone (Area 202) $44-6000 WARD & PAUL 4 ) Nell, IT have no ‘further questions, Mr. Sturbitts. al: . . 5 ‘t If vou have anything vou would like to add you are welcome ae i to do so. | . | 410 Ferst Street, S.E., Washington, D.C. 20003 3 . ze ; \ No, I have nothing. * i >» I want to thank vou on behalf of myself and the Hi } Commission for vour cooperation. Photocopy from i . Librar i SECRET Gerald Ford : | y | HW 50955 Docld: 32275454 Page 113
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