6 5 ~ a z 6 a 5 7 a s 8 S a 9 Z & & 10 z @ 11 4 8 @ 23 inal wn 2 14 ae £15 “ [oad Z 16 is 9) f 17 ie] e nm 18 = & * 19 % 20 21: @ » 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 32 embargo as of the time the witness appears and that they tell us is adequate to get it in the evening papers. weme whether the Gi / ur. Edgar. Let me ask you ~a=quesition™ — electronic media will have sufficient time to receive it and identify that this is an important witness that they should cover, andsberthexeiiskthatusuficctentstime? Mr. Blakey. The situation with the electronic people is as follows, meaning by electronic ABC, NBC and CBS. Their management people have had contact with me and I have had contact with them in a general sort of way. The way. in which this is normally handled is there would be a very private conversation with them probably on Sunday evening, just the three management people, in which they would expect us to honestly tell them what was going to happen that week. They think that if three management people. know it only that they would then make management decisions about what to cover; that if we expanded that group beyond three it would be like issuing it to the world. Yes? those people have to make a greater commitment of equipment than simply to send some person and it may be possible to work out an arrangement with them where they get the information sufficiently in advance that they can make an intelligent decision about what to cover and when. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Blakey. Excuse me. That is not something we can put on this piece of paper because The New York Times and the Post go out of their minds if the electronic media even on a management ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 34
10 MW 14 16 17 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. > REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 120 33 level will get some advance notice. In fact, this is what is done regularly by the White House now and has been done by some other congressional committees. Tye. McKinney. Let's not prey too heavily on the White House. Press problems are legion. Mr. Blakey. Perhaps r should say it has been traditionally done by White Houses, including this one. Chairman Stokes. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman, I. support the direction we are going and I think we had such briefing as Congressman Edgar suggests and that the real underlying theme that you have men- tioned is one which I think is absolutely crucial to establish our.credibility and our reason for not saying, you know, “T-am making a comment” or ."He:.was. telling a'‘lie today" is that judge- juror role and how improper it would be for we sitting in that capacity to make any comments .on the evidence until it is all in and then we sift it and so on. A lot of future cross+examination should be determined whether or not I accept or reject what some witness said ty weeks earlier. The second question I have has been answered, I guess. At one time I thought that you had said that we are going to prepare kind of a narrative of the information, the kinds of questions going to be asked and so on. Now is that what you visualize or is that not visualized in the eit o'clock packet? Mr. Blakey. The oft o'clock packet is what we know is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3272766656 Page 35
9 5 a zB 6 a 5 7 a S 8 N S a 9 Z © & 10 Z lao} a 11 4 g. 12 < ioe] a 14 ae fom] 2. 15 txt x : 16 wn ¢ 17 fx] juny mh 618 = & © 19 S , 20 21 e * 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 34 . going to happen. For example, we know that the narration will be given to set the stage for that day's hearing. We know what the witness's name and background will be and we know what exhibits we intend to introduce. That would be given to the media immediately. I think.we have to prepare approximately 150 copies of that each morning. Since we don't know what the witness is going to say until he takes the stand, we cannot tell them beforehand anything about that but that they will get at esfit o'clock that morning. G) mnis will permit them to understand that day's hearings by having an opportunity to get an advanced reading of the narration. They. can pegin filing their stories on that or at least start writing them. They will have a prehearing look at our exhibits. It should be a very intelligible proceeding, far different from . what is typical of a congressional hearing and is less structured. Mr. Fithian. The next point I wanted to make is I think we 2 a2 should consider, Mr. Chairman, that at the close of each day's hearings you know and I know what will happen. We are going to bring down the gavel and we will start walking out and every good reporter is going to try to corner Mrs. Burke for a comment or somebody else for a comment or whatever. I think that is abso- lutely inevitable, any way that we pique the interest of the press. I. am wondering in light of that inevitability if the Chair or/and the person who is working on the cross examination especially for that day ought not to make a few minutes available ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 36
9 5 a iB 6 a R 7 S S 8 NN So A 9 Zz & & 10 Z = @ OU. = g 12 S| : jee) 2.14 & f © 15 ica} te s 16 NM R17 a [a] h 618 = S F419 5 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 ‘counsel, or should they learn from the media who is coming? If ‘able until sometime this afternoon. | members find out outside of the hearings what will happen will be 35 to the press not to interpret the evidence, etc. Z Pur. Blakey. But what will you say, Mr. Fithian? That is precisely what you really should not do. A judge does not go out in the hall and make himself available for what happened that day, the jury doesn't. If you do, what you will guarantee is what you say in the hall and not what has been carefully worked out in the hearings will be reported in the press. \ Mr. pagar. /fney are waitiRAt think/in the hall to find out whether Ray is coming. Isn't that what they are set up for out here now? Mr. Blakey. It could be. Let me say that presents another very interesting problem. Should Ray learn from the committee ‘directly? Should Mark Lane learn from Jim Wolf, our legal — ‘they learn from the media that we are going to invite him, that will be one of the issues Mark Lane will raise, our exploitation of the media, and for that very reason... Mark Lane is not reach- The committee really ought not comment on whether Ray is coming or not until Ray and his lawyer know. Really, Mr. Fithian, if we cannot concentrate everything on the hearings in which we have an opportunity to think about it beforehand and structure it out,’ then the hearings will speak for themselves. If the committes | what spontaneously occurred in the hall and you will not be able ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 37 ;
14 15 16 17 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 2] @ 22 | 23 24 25 we are living with now on the autopsy is that the autopsy surgeons |jsaid, "We saw a bullet hole coming out in the front," and that is 36 to say each day, "Well, I can't comment on whether I believe him, I can't comment on the direction of the testimony, I can't comment on who else we may call," what would you then say to him? Try to summarize in xO minutes what occurred in three hours? Y on the testimony, the substance, but a good reporter is apt to want Mr. Fithian. No. I think you could stay with the no comment = = to know from Lou whether or not the committee has looked at what he considers a crucial document before. Mr. Blakey. How can you say that? I mean if you are given the document that perhaps you have not seen before, honestly the staff has seen before, it was not included in the materials that were available to you for good and sufficient reasons and some reporter asks you about it and you say, well, I am not aware of that document, then that is what goes in the public domain and not the thousand researchers who know about it. One of the things that happened to the Warren Commission that walked out and talked to the press. The press found out what happened at the various places and all the statements were then 7S made in the press, none of which we@ accurate. The autopsy surgeon where the whole theory of the grassy knoll comes in. The real doctors, the forsenic pathologist, there is no hole in the front and the photographs clearly show no hole in the front so the myth of the bullet hole in the front was created by the people talking ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3277666586 Page 36
10 5 . a nN e 6 = x 7 a 3 8 S A 9 Z & & 10 q eo) Goi 2 get § : [eal if a) B14 = land fx): fee] = 16. w e 17 ica} lo= 5 18 x Fa 2 19 ion] 20 21 e ” 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 38 DY): Mrs = ° = Weg urke. The Capital? Mr. Blakey. The ones accredited to the House press corps. Then whoever wants to will come and they will get enough tickets roughly for everybody to come but it is up to them to come or not. Mrs. Burke. How many seats is that? ——~ : : : MzsSpBerning. The press people are not included in these ee . tickets. These tickets ar reserved seats. Mrs. Burke. How many press seats? re) : . : Misss,Berning. Approximately .cneml That is for the writing press or the writing press and the periodical press. All a press people have to be approved by the House @allery, that is in the House rules. They either carry a press card, because all of the major newspapers have made application to and gotten approval. for that, or they apply on a onetime basis and get a temporary card. We expect a lot of that for this particular hearing. One determination that has to be made, they expect to give out as many passes as can possibly fit into the room a this block of 100 seats or 80 seats, I forget how many there are. Eighty or ninety seats. Anyone who is accredited has a right to come and it is only space that would keep them out. The people who are not accredited put—chay, may be a problem are the minority owned weekly newspapers, and that is something that has to be determined because if they are not accredited,, if there is no room for them and they cannot be accommodated because a major newspaper or any of the others that are accredited are there first, they, Come back to any ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 40 ;
1 | of you and we need A-determinatio#what you are going to do. Will 2 | you back up the House press gallery? S. e ; ; 3 7 wecs. Burke. Well, of course we go through this all the time. @ 4 |can't we in arriving at this 7 for instance, do we pevematist—S epee send out the press releases and the announcements, the 6 | dates and all of those things, to a particular press list? a) . . . 7 ' ~Mig§y Berning. The wire services. 8 Mrs. Burke. The wire services. 9 Mr. Blakey. There is a book that you can enter an entry or 10 | a log saying we have things available and then anybody can come. -11 | For example, Tass, the Soviet news agency, came to see what our 12 photographic releases were in the Kennedy case. 13 1°.) Mrs. Burke. I am certain we are going to have a lot of 14 | foreign -press applying for Capital press passes. Of. course the _15 | minority press will be interested in the King case. I do hope 16 | that we work out some kind of a policy. Maybe the policy would 17 | be those obvious press people should be advised that they need a 18 gapital clearance. I think that is the way it has worked out, 19 | gor instance, in inaugural events. They don't use the traditional 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 | press corps for this. 21 Mise, Berning. No? these will be people coming from all over @ 22 | the United States. When we refer to the House press gallery it is 23 | no people assigned to Capitol Hill. They put,out that there is 24— an event going on and anyone fhaz,is interested from ail over the 25 Mation, all over the world actually, can apply to them. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3277666586 Page 41
1 12 13 16 17 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 14 |. 15. 40 Mr. McKinney. Have those gone out yet? aT . ' . : MeSSpBerning. I don't know. I know it has been discussed. Mr. Blakey. I am sorry, Congressman. Mr. McKinney. For instance, I have a feature writer who is an assassination buff for the Bridgeport Post and it was my intention to have him here as a guest, just to let him sit in one day so he would have been there. If he comes as a guest, he does not need any kind of press clearance, does he? ies : . : \ iiss Sp Berning. No; but if he comes as a guest he cannot taxe pictures or carry a,devide with him. All you need do is have him contact the press -gollbulo 7 _ Mr. Devine. Have you considered a pool arrangement? A pool of TV cameramen for all three networks and the wire services? Mr. Blakey. From what we understand it is not likely that ABC, ‘NBC will carry the first two days live. It is likely that CBS will have somebody there every day although probably not live. I think the decision has not yet been made as to whether to cover Ray live. If one or more of the networks decide to cover Ray live, that could be done by a pool arrangement but that is something that they do. The PBS carries it live. My understanding is that CBS or NBC will also have a camera there since they don't consider PBS kosher. Mrs. Burke. If there are members of the committee that wish to have a filming of a part of the proceedings, we do have a private company that we can work out a filming arrangement with} ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 327766656 Page 42
ws 5 a nN Z 6 a R 7 a 3 8 io) q 9 Zz = 5 10 zg eo} 4.1 4 le a N G2 14 & 5 =< = 16 ws & 17 g] oe h 18 se E ° i9 oO 20 21 e °* 23 24 25 41 and der t=knew a I guess it would have to be cleared through the press gallery, but there is a private company that would do it, for it is not that expensive, if some members of the committee wanted filming. Sux. Fithian. Mr. Chairman. Chairman Stokes. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Fithian. I don't know how readily available clearance is up there. That is the kind of point of information, I will just take Mrs. Burke's case, if the San Francisco Examiner decided just. for the heck of it they would like to cover 47 they are not going to cover the whole thing but they are going to contract somebody to go over and cover tyb days of the hearings and then they are going ‘to talk about not only the hearings but Mrs. Burke's role in it, would they pretty automatically get a press pass from the gallery up there? Mips, Berning. There would not be a problem with that partic- ularly if it is concerning one of the members. | | Mr. Fithian. Then if they didn't get in because the press seats were taken, is our policy that she could or could not admit them on one of her tickets? Mr. Blakey. She could admit them on one of her tickets. The San Francisco Examiner would have no problem getting in. If Ray is here for the e days, I suspect that the tickets are probably adequate. It is clear that in the Kennedy hearings in November when the Caucus Room will be used there will be no trouble getting ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3272766636 Page 43
10 WU 12 13 14 ar 16 17 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32266686 42 the press in. S vis¥yBerning. The number of seats we have set aside for the press came from discussions that we have had szop,the three _ superintendents of the press gallerj”and it is their experience they can normally expect ‘X”number of people who want to come in so there has been discussion with them. Mr. Fithian. That number includes a lot more than the Washington press corps in the first place. Miss Berning. Yes. The Washington press corps is sac a very small part of that. | > Mr. Blakey. I might add that Elizabeth has spent a great deal of time in the last weeks, month or so, talking with the people on the other committees learning their experience, sitting with various members of the House press gallery and trying to figure out how people have done.it in the past and what the experience has been. Remarkably, there is a real body of infor- mation about how to do this. Elizabeth has been more absorbed in this. If we have specific questions and we want all these details, there is a good library on it and she understands it very well. Mé&ss,Berning. I might say if any of you do have specific newspapers or papers you are interested in, it might be good to let me know and I will pass it on @%, let the press gallery know so they can feed it into their system. The more information we have beforehand, the better it is. Chairman Stokes. There is one question in terms of the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 44
10 27] 16 17 300 7TH STREET, S.W., REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 minority newspapers. What is the procedure for them to be able to get whatever accreditation is necessary? fists Berning.’, Ray minority daily, there is no problem. The concern I was asked to pass on to you is for the very, very small weekly newspapers. The problem with Letting them in. is, number one, they would probably come at the last minute rather than letting anyone know ahead of time because they would not be wired into the major,and they would, have © bump someone who would be on a daily.7 they (could get this information from the wire services and they could pick up their stories through other sources rather than being at the hearing live, in person. If your. determination is that you want these small weeklies that would have a very limited circulation to be there, the press gaklery will try to work it out but it will pose a major problem for them. - Their policy would be to turn them down unless you tell them otherwise but they don't want them to be turned down and then have them come back to you with the complaint. Chairman Stokes. Maybe we had better arrange to have a meeting with them on this point because in the King matter, particularly, we know that there is going to be a great deal of interest and it will create a real problem if we don't have some kind of accommodation for them. Mr. McKinney. Will the Chairman yield? Chairman Stokes. I yield. Mr. McKinney. Is there a list of minority weeklies? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3272766686 Page 45
44 1 Y chairman Stokes. There probably is, yes. 2 Mr. McKinney. It seems to me a letter could be sent out to 3 | them. Y 4 Miss, Berning. To what effect? 5 | Mr. McKinney. Telling them the dates, the problems. 6 Chairman Stokes. through the NNPA, the National Negro 5 ° . A antag aevociationg probably can communicate with all of . 8 | them, 7 9 Mr. Blakey. I will see that that is done, Mr. Chairman. We 10 | will get to them and tell them what they have to do. That is no 11 | problem. 12 . Mr. Edgar. You might want to explore the possibility of -13 | elosed circuit TY and=then There is plenty of room. 4 Chairman Stokes. We are pretty much agreed in terms of the 15 dialogue and discussion we have had regarding the policy. We are 16 pretty much agreed then that we develop a policy where there would. 17 | be a Ko commen Y, type of situation. 18 Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, there is one aspect of it that is 19 | now unclear. Mrs. Burke has suggested that the comment on procedur 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 | be limited to you. The memorandum indicated the comment on proced- 21 | ure be by anyone. I don't know what the status of that difference @ 22 is. I take it on everything else there is agreement. 23 Mr. Devine. It puts a pretty heavy burden on the foaimman ‘LE 24 he has to say, ‘ho comment ¥ 25 Mr. Edgar. Mr. Chairman, I would go with what is in the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 327766656 Page 46
10 11 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 Docld: 322766666 45 memorandum. I think the dhaicman will get the most questions and each of us will get questions. Bs think we are old enough now after a year and a half of infancy to be able to respond to non- substantive questions and procedure that are in the public arena particularly in light of your comments in the Congressional Record and others about where we are going from here. A lot of that stuff is publicy awa Ehen on substantive questions in the ¢ 4 hearings we just say Yo comment Y I think that is spelled out. Tye. Fithian. Or we could say, "The Chairman speaks for the committee and go talk with him." Chairman Stokes. I think the recommendation is that members be permitted to make comments. regarding procedure. Mr; Blakey. I will rework this memo. Mr. Edgar. Is there agreement on Thursday or so of a press briefing in.light of what I had suggested? Chairman Stokes. I think that fhag was,by porte unanimous consent. . Mr. Edgar. That might be a good day to practice at least partially putting together a packet for distribution atethate=time and Me sure that our staffs get copies of it for distribution to our press. Mr. Blakey. There is no problem setting up a frank and clear background briefing for them of- what is going to happen live. Again I would suggest that that briefing might be on the record. I mean no cameras coming in and kind of announcing what we are ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 47
2 3 @ : 19 5 pe “N 6 a R 7 a S 8 N io) a 9 Zz g & 10 Z x a 11 4 < fon N = faa 9 15 ica) fond s 16° id 9] E17 ica] os 5B 18 = z = 19 So os 20 21 oe > 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 46 going to do next week but just talk to them and let them know. If we want to begin creating a good working relationship with them, we can do that on a background basis where they can talk to us and’ we can talk about it without having to expect to see the comments appearing in The Washington Post the next morning, It might be a very useful thing. Y we. pagar. I guess I misunderstood that. I must have been on the telephone when you said that. I saw it. as background information but not something that would be confined so that they could not write a story about it. Mr. Blakey. They could write it but not for distribution. I don't think it would be appropriate, for example, for me to come out and see my_name in the press saying what is going to happen this week. If the whole thing goes all the way through and my name never appears in the press, that is the way it ought to be. Mr. Edgar. [I envision, and I may be mistaken, éa=Rp=stona Lou and Sam and anyone else coming and sitting around the table OK ama Le the press cameras wanted to come in, okay, amd Lou starts off by saying, "I invited you to talk about press policy," and for Lou to have an agenda and-to go down specifically through the | policy and then say, "Do you have any questions?" and not say to the press, “We don't want you to use any of this in a particular way." I think what we need to say to the press is that our policy Them is now moving to a way of cooperation and working with yom over ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. . Page 45
10 VW 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345, 20 21 @ . 22 93 24 25 Docld: 3277666586 Page 49 47 this information. I would hate for us to get into a bind of having them say, "Well, at our first opportunity for discussion after a year long absence from discussion you somehow tried to ys censor me." Wwe. Blakey. Mr. Edgar, let me suggest something to you. If the ¢hairman and Mr. Devine or even one or two cthers of you were to walk into a room now and begin having a conversation with the press, you would get only substantive questions and if you did not respond to them immediately you would have the very hostility which you are concerned about. My suggestion to you s Mr. Edgar.  Bma@eviue Sines omaeia Tad I eam respectfully disagree. I think that, we announce that we are having a press briefing on the following issues and we list out those issues very carefully and @@ say to them that we are now moving to open hear- makes it clear in the beginning ings. and the ghairman Garett there will be no substantive discussion, we are talking abouc moving from an executive session, to an open dialogue with you. I don't think you will get the angry comments. I think you will get the angry comments if we try to say to them, "Here is a press briefing but you can't really report on it." -I think what we will get on Friday of next week is a headline in the newspaper: Assassination Committee Set to Have Public Hearings. At a press briefing yesterday led by Lou Stokes they laid the ground rules for press policy and they talked about the procedure which they are planning to operate under in the upcoming hearings. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W.', REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 22 23 24 25 DoclId: 322766636 48 . Y/ we. Blakey. I think that is precisely what you don't want to do. What you want is to share with them what your reasoning is and you don't expect to see that in the newspapers. The hearings really ought to speak for themselves. They will read that as an effort to manipulate them, Mr. Edgar. Chairman Stokes. It appears, Bob, you are not objecting to a briefing session; in substance, you are objecting to the type of briefing session that Mr. Edgar suggests, right? Mr. Blakey. Maybe I can't say that I have a great deal of experience compared to the chairman or Mr. Devine or what have you but I really live around this very press pool that is covering us for the better part of almost typhi years and I have done it in the context of the criminal justice type issue, I have done it in the committee hearings in the Senate, I have done it in the context of the judicial committee hearings in the Senate, I have Gone it in the context of the Watergate hearings in the Senate and I really know a at least I think I do I the kind of trouble this committee is in.on its press policy and the real danger we have of blowing it. Maybe I am being unduly rigid or concerned about it but I really think that everything we do other than what is _ directly in the hearings, having the hearings speak for them- selves, any publicity we create outside of that, unless it can be immediately tied to an investigative purpose or a public explana- tion purpose of what is in the hearings pushes us into a category that makes us like other congressional hearings and if we do that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 50
10 7 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. > REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 30024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 Pr 22 a 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 49 I really believe we are lost, Mr. Eagar. Wwe. Edgar. Except that you have now given us permission to have public comment on the process and style of the committee as opposed to the substance of the committee and we have already put in the Congressional Record a whole series of things which in your memo indicate we now can go with the press release indicating how many hours we work, eee I think the press would see it as a responsible thing to do at the beginning of substantive hearings. Mr. Blakey. As a practical matter those kinds of press releases I have suggested would be covered in your home districts, they would not be covered nationally. w Mr. Edgar. ‘If I could respectfully interrupt again, the point that I am making is that the ghairman at the launching of typ months and offe week of open: public hearings could logically you and I come before the press corps and say “You knowyY we are going to have a difficult task geveormane over the next ty months and oe week and we would like to sit down with an agenda here today and explain to you what our press policy will be. Mr. Blakey. Why not do that off the record then. The people you want to explain it to are the press people and not the general public. rf you explain it off the record, the likelihood is that you will get communication with them. If you go on the record 3 Mr. Edgar. But I think the public does not know that we are going to start on the l4th of the month with hearings and I think the public may be interested in the comment of the ghairman ZBSVeN enc ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 51
10 11 12 13 17 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 e 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32266686 50 fyewmfaet that we are now moving into a different Z Wx. Devine. What do you mean the public does not know we are going on the 14th? It will be in every paper and on TV. Chairman Stokes. Everybody knows. Mr. Edgar. We put out the press release but the general public's appetite ro Mr. Blakey. Because of the coverage in the New York Times today, because of the coverage in NewS Week, all of which is legitimate coverage of what we are doing, none of which we have stimulated in any way. We will. lose the ability to maintain our independence when we create news as opposed to news growing out of what we do. , Mr. ‘Fithian. If I may interrupt, are you saying that you would. prefer that Lou-or none of us should try to lay out for them this judge/jury role that we are moving into? Mr. Blakey. Ona background basis where the time and place in which you discuss that with them is for their information and their understanding as they cover the hearings but if you make that in itself a matter of publicity and an occasion of stories where you will quote the phairman, you will get a story written, House Assassination Committee today begins its process of exploi- tation in the manipulation. It may not come out so harsh in words as stark as that but that is what they think we are about. Mr. McKinney. I have another concern, too, Bob. 1 really don't want to get in the middle of this. Our colleagues upstairs, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 52
3 5 A B 6 oe a 7 a Ss 8 S q 9 Z g & 10 Z ico) 2 g 12 ~ & . ) 1h fo c 8 15 ic] jee] 5 16 Ww e 17 {x} [ao] 6 «18 E 5 (19 g 20 21 e ” 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 51 some of them, have said to me, "Well, when do you start your dog and pony show?" "How many correspondents have you hired and where is the stage?" "When does your re-election television broadcast start?" Subtle, nasty, on our side, And on Sam, I think. G; Hf Mr. Devine. Yes. - Mr. McKinney. I would like to-walk into the hearing room the first day with my dark shades on and proceed. ‘Chairman Stokes. We may have permission under the five = minute rule to sit. Mr. McKinney. We don't have to. Chairman Stokes. As a full committee we do. In fact, we should have had it this morning in order to be sitting now. _ ... Mrs: Devine. Let me make a: point of order. - . OF course, I think maybe we are borrowing trouble. I may underestimate it, but I don't think we are going to have the media beating down the doors to get in to witness this great hearing other than the Ray end of it. I think otherwise they will lose interest. If we have more than a handful of reporters, I will be surprised. Mr. McKinney. I don't think they will be dropping in for Abernathy and the others. Mr. Blakey. If they don't and we have a press conference in effect about what we are going to do the following week, it will appear in effect to stimulate interest in the first part of the hearings. I really believe the inherent value of what we are ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 53
10 1 12 13 . 14 » 15 16 17 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 22 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 52 doing is so intense that if we do it well, what we do will be covered and that we ought not to have any media event outside of that. O/ chairman Stokes. Bob, if I understood your point this morn- ~ Aue J ing, the purpose of it was a aed the press, who had been kept TT away from us and who have left us alone as a result of it, would now fully and completely understand what we are trying to do and how we are going to try to present it, and so forth, and it would seem to me that the purpose which you have in mind is not really inconsistent with the way F Mr. Edgar. That is true. Mr. Chairman, I am willing to withdraw my concern about having it open. I would caution us though in shaping it so that we don't give the press the impres- sion that:we are trying to censor them. ; ‘Chairman Stokes. Right. . I think ie can be done that way. Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, that concludes the two issues that require some sort of decision from the committee. I would propose now that we make available the Marshals to answer any questions that you might have and when the Marshals are finished to make Dr. Barger available to you to talk about the acoustical matter. Chairman stokes. One other question. We never did dispose of the exception taken by Mr. Edgar with reference to the scheduling of Ray. How do you propose that we resolve that issue? Mr.. Blakey. Let me suggest this to you. Why don't we get a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 54
. ; a z 6 e R 7 a $8 Oo aq 9 Z e & 10 Z x qi = _§ 12 8 @ = 33 ~ . RN 2 14 & 2 15 je] jon] s 16 nN eK 17 ic] = 5 18 aa) . B © 19 3 20 21 . 23 24 25 Docld: 32266636 53 working committee of those people involved in the cross-examinatio together, let them go over the ckoss-examination and then come bac to the full committee with the suggestion at some time before Mr. Ray appears. Our schedule is really flexible and it is not neces- sary to make the decision now either way. It does not commit us finally and we decide to change on Wednesday. We can announce at any time how late to have the hearings. In fact, we can decide on Wednesday as it is going that this is not the time to cut it off, it is. to continue on, and that if we keep curselves flexible. we can but once the kind of executive committee is doing the cross examination we will get together, thrash it all out and put in all the considerations. Then we can bring back to the full .committee the thoughts. I would note in that connection that you are on that committee. Due. Edgar. I just didn't want the working committee to make > a final decision. I think it should be a decision of our commit- tee. | Chairman stokes. Then it will come back to the full commit- tee. | Proceed, then, with the parshals. Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, could I present to you Marshal J. Jerome Bullock from the District of Columbia. Would you introduce the two people with you. Marshal Bullock. This is Inspgetos Robert Reid who is a security coordinator for the District of Columbia Marshal's Office ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 55
3 5 & @ 6 a a 7 q mo, S 8 N <) a 9 Zz = = 10 Z = a VM = g. 12 =: jaa B14 & io] ic loa] = 16 os < 17 16) & n 18 = S - 19 3 20 21 e °° 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 54 This is Lex Lancaster who is the goutheast Regional ¢ommander of our special Operational @roup. | O/chaizman Stokes. Thank you very much. These are the members of the committee. This is Mr. Edgar of Pennsylvania, Mr. Fithian of Indiana, Mr. Devine of Chio, Mr. McKinney of Connecticut, Mr. Sawyer of Michigan, and I am Chairman Stokes. Mr. Blakey, how did you want to proceed? Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, I understood that members of the committee had some concerns in mind about the security. I asked Marshal Bullock if he would come to the committee this morning and indicate a general outline -to the committee of their past experience. in moving prisoners. of this kind and open themselves to such questions as the committee might have. I suspect and TI would suggest to you that it might be just as fluid for Marshal Bullock to proceed how ever he: wants to in sharing that informa- tion with you. Chairman Stokes. Marshal Bullock, we would be pleased to have you proceed in whatever way you like. Marshal Bullock. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Upasted osates Marshal Service handles approximately —— 60,000 prisoners annually; that is, we move that many prisoners annually. Annually we handle approximately 75 prisoners that we consider as being very sensitive either from the standpoint of them requiring some special security arrangement cr from the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 56
10 16 17 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 standpoint of us taking special precautions to maintain them in custody. The Marshal Service has been doing this since 1789. In the District of Columbia office we of course handle a large percentage of prisoners in both those categories on a daily or weekly basis. PY right now we have an individual who is currently testifying before another committee of the Congress that has been in the news for the last several days, very sensitive individual, and we are responsible for maintaining his security both before the committee as well as while he is not before the committee. So the Marshal Service generally has had a tremendous amount of experience. We handled Mr. Tongson Park recently, another sensitive individual who was in the country. | More ‘specifically on this assignment because of the unusual nature of the principal involved we have made some special arrangements and special plans-so far as. security is concerned. I have asked-a member of our headquarters staft who is the commander of our gpecial Operations group to be in with our office on the planning and execution of this move so this situation is getting some rather high level attention. On last Friday Joe Weatherton who is the Precial pherations proup commander and I visited Bushy Mountain State Prison to review the prison files, to talk with individuals that handle this principal on a daily basis so that we could get some idea of the kind of personality generally that we were dealing with. The ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 32727666386 Page 57
4 5 nN m 66 a a 7 a 3 8 o) a 69 Zz © = 10 Z B11 4 s 12 8 @ = 13 : [oa N 14 ce lo] O15 oo fae] s 16 Nn E17 ic] food mH 618 = & - 19 3 20 21 23 24 25 Docld: 32727666386 Page 56 56 other thing that we wanted to do was to do some sort of recon- naissance so that we could make an accurate determination as to how we wanted to carry out the mood of getting the principal from his current location to Washington. We have a very secure plan for doing that and I can only say at this point that we will use a norgeonmercial conveyance to get him to the Washington area. G/ wow so far as the housing for the number ef days that will be required while the priscner is here, we intend to house this principal outside of the Washington, D. Ce, area in a facility whereby there will be physically a 24=hour guard on him and in fact there will be some security people with him for the entire time that he is outside of the walls of his place of current incarceration. - We will move the principal™to Washington on the days that he is required or needed for testimony purposes and in addition we will maintain security over him during the course of his testimony and during all times while he is here before the Congress. We have an excellent working relationship with Chief Powell and the members of the Capitol Police Force and they have figured in from day one so far as our planning of the security arrangements. The areas that he will be housed in will be secured during the entire time that he is present and we have taxen some other rather extensive surveillance type precautions. We have made some arrangements for some additional surveillance activities ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
10 1 12 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 that we need not go into here at this time. One of the things 57 both within and outside of the hearing room itself. Y we will be using at least two magnacompters. These are the kind that you generally see at the airport entrances to detect weapons and that sort of thing for any persons coming into the general area of the hearing room, not just the hearing reom itself, It will include the corridor outside. We will have approximately sevgyleen Untbed Spates Marshal oC : 7. on Service employees, Deputy United Spates Marshals, and myself personally involved in this assignment until its termination. We plan to use some other security devices and equipment that are common to us that we prefer not to go into detail at this time ' about to maintain security over this: principal while he is in -this area. a Chairman Stokes. I want to give the members anf opportunity jfrey-want to ask em questions of you. It is obvious to us pred that you are as concerned as we are that this individual be accorded the greatest amount of security for all of the reasons that could be a problem here is in terms of the gentleman who represents this principal and the fact that he will be asking for We have had, on the record, some discus- access to hinpend sion with him in which we have acknowledged his right to counsel with his client but that it has to be done in accordance with security arrangements and that we will work with him in any way to be sure that he does have access to his client at all times ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 32727666586 Page 59
58 1 | and cannot say he is not getting access. I am sure that you 2 | recognize this problem and you are willing to txy and work that 3 | out so that there is no public problem created. @ 4 Gf Marshal Bullock . Certainly. 5 Chairman Stokes. Mr. Fithian. 6 Mr. Fithian. I have no questions. 7 . Chairman Stokes. Mr. Edgar. 8 Mr. Edgar. The only question that I have is when we talked 9 | with James Earl Ray he indicated he at no time wanted to walk and onl several Shots 10 through a battery of photographers,, that he would, permityat tne sib TANOR | sitting down prior to our conversation, smsemiimshotsmas 12 | sieandimeistetemtwehiomde: mktowanwitongetmintomt hescuineumsvancewotehavans 13 | edawalksthwougGueeiwhoteeiositaomkpheteguapherss Can that be 14 assured? 15 Marshal Bullock. That can be assured, sir. We have already 16 figured that into our security planning. The only time that he 17 will confront photographers would be during the time that he is 18 | in the hearing room and those photographers will have already 19 been screened by us and they will be present at a designated area 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 in the hearing room so he won't be confronted in any moves with 21 photegraphers or any other media person. 22 Mr. Edgar. I notice in your security provisions on the 23 Senate side for the witness that is appearing before that committee 24 now you have had two marshals sitting behind the witness looking 25 out at the audience. Would that be similar in. this instance? ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. — Docld: 3272766656 Page 60
10 11 12 13 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32266686 OG) marshal Bullock. it would be similar. The number. will probably be different in this instance. In fact, I am sure there will be an increase. Mr. Edgar. Thank you. Chairman Stokes. Mr. Devine. Mr. Devine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am impressed with your professional approach to this and we are secure in knowing that you men have the background, experience and concerns that we do and think you are aware that this is an escape prone type of a principal » We the committee and we the Congress just cannot afford to have another Jack Ruby incident. Of course,that was not in the Congress,as you well know but that is one thing that we want to avoid at all costs. I personally don't want to know where you are going to house this principal; I don't think anybody should know other than perhaps the man's counsel and that is his responsibility. Other than that I have no comment, Mr. Chaizman. Chairman Stokes. Mr. McKinney. Mr. McKinney. I am very impressed. Thank you. I just don't think that you can underestimate what a terrible headache the counsel is going to give you. I would just as soon that it be worked out to the point where he not be able to run out to the press every ide minutes and say, they won't let me talk to my client and they won't let me do this and they won't let me do that. I know he will do it anyway but I am impressed. ; ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 61 ; *
g 35 a z 6 a aR 7 a S 8 N io) A 9 Zz © & 410 Z = qi 11 = g 12 G. @:" 4 if 2) = 14 2 15 a fom ss 16 a f 17 fl fon] h 6«i18 cw E > «29 3 20 2) eo ” 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 60 Y chaixnan Stokes. Mr. Sawyer. “Mr. Sawyer. Yes. I am impressed, too. This fellow is kind of a double hazard in that he is escape prone. I guess if I were serving 99 years with a 30-year minimum I might be, too, if I had any chance, but he has been somewhat successful at it and is a fairly intelligent guy, too® plus, you have the other side of the coing, that he would be a very Likely target. So itis a compounded problem and I am-delighted to hear the expertise that went into it, One thing I am interested in. You said that you made some on sight investigation down at Bpishy Mountain in talking with the people about what kind of a guy he is. What did you find out about what kind of a guy he is from the people that you talked - with there, that have daily contact with him? Marshal Bullock. We found that generally he is a loner and does not cause any problems and they really view him as a model Prisoner, not difficult to handle. I did get the feeling that he enjoys a certain degree of attention to himself on the part of the public. There was even a suggestion that perhaps these escape attempts and the even more recent successful one he had was the fact that he had been out of the limelight for a few months, so I suspect given that information and what I know about prisoners that there may be some validity to that point. We don't anticipate any problems in handling him. You are quite right, it is a two edged situation. He is likely an individual that we will: have to produce many times for ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 62 .
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W., REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 SO 61 the Government in a very serious criminal case in addition to that person being a principal figure. We also have to think in terms of keeping that individual alive to give that testimony. Lye. Sawyer. That is all I have. Mr. Devine. There are some people out there, as you know, who would like to get their name in the paper for having eliminated someone like that. Marshal Bullock. Certainly. Mr. Devine. As long as you fellows are aware, we are more comfortable. Chairman Stokes. We might share with you the fact when we were there and posed a question to him about our concern about his security and whether he had any preferences for perhaps a hearing taking place in that area rather than bringing him to Washington He made it very clear,he was anxious to come to Washington, sé that may figure in his plans in some way. Marshal Bullock. Yes. Chairman Stokes. Well, obviously you gentlemen are highly qualified in the responsibility that you have undertaken, and by the comments that we have heard as members of this committee we feel relatively secure in placing this kind of responsibility in your hands. I can only just re-emphasize what the other members have said, that the House of Representatives is extremely concerned about his security and we know that you will keep #2 that in mind Marshal Bullock. We will, Mr. Chairman. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3277666386 Page 63
10 iB 13 14 15 16 17 18 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 2 23 24 25 Docld: 3277666386 Page 64 19° . proceed in a really formal manner but I would like to introduce 62 =— Wet dgar. Mr. Chairman. Chairman Stokes. Mr. Edgar. t . . ’ é Mr. Edgar. I would just caution, I know that the gentleman that will not be involved in thispum it would be important that no comment be made when you leave here so that we can notify Ray and his attorney about this process. Marshal Bullock. Certainly. | Chairman Stokes. I am sure they follow that all the time. Marshal Bullock. Certainly. Chairman Stokes. Thank you very much. Marshal Bullock. Thank ycu for the opportunity to appear, Mr. Chairman. | Chairman Stokes. Thank you. Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, I understand Mrs. Burke wants to hear this, too, and she is coming down ‘from the floor. She will be here in a moment if we can wait for just a second. Chairman Stokes. All right. fthereupon, a short recess was taken.] Chairman Stokes. Why don't we ask Mr. Blakey to introduce the witness. Mr. Blakey. Mr. Chairman, there is no particular reason to pr. James E. Barger who is the chief scientist for Bolt, Beranek and Newman, Inc., a firm in Massachusetts that specializes in various acoustical issues. They have a very impressive background ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. |
300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 ~Docld:32266686 Page 65 63 and were involved in the tape for Judse Sirica, the famous 18 minutes. He was also involved in the analysis of sound recordings at Kent State for the Department of Justice and he has headed up the group of scientists that have been working for the subcommitte and for the committee in analyzing the Dictapfbelt tape that we found that covers the period of time that the Kennedy assassinatio occurred, Yr thought it might be useful for all of you to hear from him this morning on really what he has done, the status of his work and what he thinks we have to do before final conclusions can be reached. He would be more than glad to answer any questions that any of you have as he goes along. | Jim. Mr. Barger. Thank you, Bob. I will try to give you a brief overview before lunch and you can think about questions perhaps during lunch. We have analyzed two magnetic tape recordings that were supplied to us by Mr. Blakey and these were magnetic tape record- ings made of the Dictapbelt of the Dallas Police Department. dispatchers, gnannels l and 2. Now on ghannel 2 we find an annotation that the presidential motorcade reaches the triple [2:30 underpass at twelve—thisty and also that ghannel 1 has a motor- cycle radio that is stuck in the transmit mode. On ghannel 1 we . . . 2 do find cor #ffe minutes starting at 12:20 that the WF Chairman Stokes. That is an indication that a vote has just ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
10 WW 12 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ ” 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 64 started on the House floor which means we have tigen minutes to go to the floor and vcte. We are very close to the floor so we can take another eKe, sf seyén minutes before we have to go. Y yc. parger. All right. For about fife minutes starting at 12:28 according to the time annotated by the dispatcher on fhannel 1, one hears the sound of a motorcycle principally. At about 12:31, however, that motor- cycle seems to slow down and the noise level diminishes. Now we have played these magnetic tape recordings through two filers. Each of these filters is realized ona computer. The first filter filters out everything but the high frequency compon- ents of the sound on the tape. The second filter is called an adaptive filter and it filters out noise that is somewhat repeti- tive and it does not disturb impulsive sounds. In other words, it learns ahead cf time what the noise is like and subtracts that out. If an impulse comes along, it does not subtract that out. | Mr. McKinney. So in other words it would take out the motorcycle which is a constant. Mr. Barger. It diminishes the sound of the motorcycle, it does not remove it completely. | Now I have graphical amplitude recordings of the output of those two filters with me. It might be best for us to examine them after the vote and let me just give a complete summary peforehand. Each of these graphical amplitude recordings that represent the output of these two filters show what I characterize ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 66 . ,
10 11 14 15 16 17 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 © 22 23 24 25 65 as four groups of sound impulses. YD row these groups of impulses, just to summarize, begin at 12:31 Qhannel l time. We have established that the dispatchers do not annotate their tapes with greater accuracy than about one Minute so the initial group or pattern of sound impulses occurs at 12:31 plus or minus a minute, . ol The second group of impulses begins +wo—and—ons=benth-oi—a seconds later. The third group of impulses begins at 7.17 seconds after the first and the fourth group begins at 8.47 seconds after the first, When initially analyzing these filter outputs with a less powerful filter than the ones that I will show you the out- outs of today, I had characterized these four groups as being three with one of them excessively long in duration. In the outputs of these two filters that we will discuss today it appears more like four as I just said, Now the question is whether these groups of impulses are caused by gunfire in Dealy Plaza, We have already sucjected these impulses to several analytical tests, First, we have taken the acoustical waveform generated by an Ml rifle and we have mathe- matically computed the output of the type of radio that was used when excited by that impulse, The Ml waveform is an approximation to the waveform of any other rifle and the characterization of the radio that was used in our radio was an approximation that is applicable to the general class of radios that were being used by the Dallas Police Department at that time, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld:32266686 Page 67
ee) x nN z 6 ae 5 7 a S 8 N . . a 9 Z e & 10 z a 11 3 g 12 8 @:” [ze] z 14 il ao eS 15 ico mm { 16 N R17 x nay 618 lan} (E 5 19 on 20 21 @ ” 23 | 24 25 Docld: 322766636 66 G/ the calculation shows that the shape of the sound impulses that come out of our filters from the tape recording are similar to what one would expect from the waveform of a rifle impulse transmitted through the radio. We have located a Similar radio in use on the motorcycles of the Massachusetts District Commission Police, We have obtained sound recordings of rifle impulses fired by a Mannlicher Carcano and we will introduce those sound impulses through the radio and measure the shape of the impulse at the output and see if in fact it continues to resemble the ones that we have in the analysis of the Dallas Police Department tape. The second and most powerful test to determine whether these groups or patterns of impulses might have been caused by rifle fire is to show that their relative occurrence and that their relative phases can be replicated. in Dealy Plaza whether the sointed part of the waveform points upward or downward on the graphic amplitude recording. We have done an analytical calcu- lation of what the groups of impulses or echos would look like if a rifle was fired from the Texas schoolbook depository building in Dealy Plaza and we found that qualitatively these echos should persist for about one second and there should be about a dozen impulses visible at a microphone on Houston or Elm Streets. | The groups of impulses we find on the Dallas Police Departmen tape do persist for about a second and there are about a dozen of them which is proof, They do have phase reversals occasionally iw some point up,.some point down, The phenomenon of defraction of iu ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 63 ‘
10 | . 42 13 "14 15 16 17 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ _ 22 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 67 | sound by a wedge, the corner of a building in this case, does in fact allow for that phenomenon to eccur depending upon the rela- “tive position of the buiiding to the gunfire. So we find that the qualitative nature of the groups or patterns of spikes are not consistent with what might be generated by a rifle fired in bealy Plaza, GF onis analytical calculation is greatly complicated by the shockwaves radiated by the bullet, We are dealing with a super- sonic bullet that radiates a shockwave just as a supersonic aircraft does. Calculating the defracted and reflected and scattered sound of a shockwave is an extremely difficult process and we can't replicate the physical process analytically with any degree of certainty. In fact, rifle fire is used to simulate aircraft shockwaves which are called sonic booms when people try to determine the reflection and. defraction and scattering of sonic booms. Due to the analytical intractability of the mathematical calculation of what the echo patterns would look like of a rifle fired in Dealy Plaza, we recommend to the committee an acoustical reconstruction of it in order to simulate the shockwave and its reflections, defractions and scattering. We need to use live ammunition having the same Mach number as that of a Mannlicher Carcano, meaning the same speed. Chairman Stokes, Doctor, I wonder if we might Pus? inter- rupt you at that point. 5 AL.DERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 69
10 1 12 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21  ) 22 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 Gf we. sacger. I have one more sentence. = id Chairman Stokes. All right. Mr. Barger. The groups of impulses that I describe are not inconsistent with rifle fire but I don't feel we can state that they are until we can see that pattern of echos that is in fact generated by the environment of Dealy Plaza. That is all. Chairman Stokes. We will go up and vote and we will come right back. Mr. Barger. I will be here. , [anereupon, at 12:04 p.m. the committee recessed until 12:17 p.m, | Chairman Stokes. At this time we will resume the committee hearing. Doctor, if. you would like to pick up again on your last sentence, | Mr. Barger. Well, I had intended that to be a summary and I think perhaps the next thing that we might do is look at the outputs of these filters, these amplitude records, I will show you the four patterns or groups of impulses and you can talk about them. Chairman Stokes. All right. Mr, Barger. Now these records are rather long. We are looking at the output of the computer in this case to the adapted filter which I said is the one that tries to remove continuous ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 70
3 3 a Z 6 a S 7 a a) 8 N is) Aq 9 Zz & & 10 Z jon q Wl 4 Zz 12 a @:. a RQ & 14 & S 15 | ms: = 16 ws c 17 Ql 2 BH 618 = ae > 19 3 20 21 @ ” 23 24 25 horizontal lines represents two-tenths of one second and these computer to print it out that way. 69 sounds, repetitive sounds. The time begins at my left and at that time is about 12:28 on £hannel l time. Each of these would all be placed end to end if it were possible to program the Y wow this point represents zero time on the record and as I said that occurs at the instant that the announcer cn ghannel 1 says 12:28. We see this characteristic pattern that looks rather like grass and that is the visual appearance of this motorcycle noise. We see here about four seconds after the record begins the amplitude of the noise .! namely, the length of the grass ! “4 ‘ “A reduces and by about fiye seconds which is right here, It has reduced a great deal and now we. see only low level noise, This continues on until 7.33ths of a second after the origin of this record, We see that little spike which has that characteristic shape of a sharp point followed by a lower frequency ringing. Mr. McKinney. Excuse me, What is that other wiggle back Mr, Barger. This wiggle is probably the impulse introduced by another radio pushing down its push button or talk button, We find those scattered throughout the record and those are audible to the ear and can be identified as such, After this initial sphke at 7,.33ths of a second we see = other replications of the same shape. Here is one and it is pointing downward, not upward as that one does, This one is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3277666586 Page Tl
2 CS pss NQ. Z 6 = 5 7 a = 8 N 3 a 9 Z & = 10 Z a 1 a4 g 12 | @:” fea] a 14 B 9 15 tJ a Z 16 2 HK 17 jc} jan 6 («8 jan) & . 19 fan) ian] 20 21 oe ” 23 24 25 Docld: 322766636 70 pointing upward as that one does, This is a small one pointing upward, another small one. Gp This is the area of the first group of spikes. After this time we see a departure from this transient which is the keying by another radio. We see that little shape occurs again starting at about °,36ths of a second and it is followed by a replication of itself at several other times usually pointing upwards but . a Ww ; . eccasSionally pointing downgards and this group of spikes ends at this time, There aren't any others after that and the total length of that group is .10ths of a second or in other words one second, Then there is a period where that shape of spike does not- recur until at this time which is 14,69ths of a second and we see that same shape appear again and it is followed over the next second by replications of itself, most of them pointing upward but some of them such as that one pointing downward, Then there is a short period where there are no more of those spikes and another one occurs at 16.06ths of a second and that shape again is repeated from time to time until I would say that was the last one at about 16.85ths of a second. Now after this time one can continue to scan the record and one sees various different kinds of impulsive sounds but none of them have that same characteristic shape as was seen in the groups except in a few cases that one, for example, rather closely ‘resembles the shape of the impulses but it is not occurring in a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Page 72 ;
10 11 12 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 2] @ 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32266686 Page T3 71 group and we come down here to the end of this record at 23.30ths of a second. All of these transients again that occur have different shapes than those not in the group had and in fact are much longer in time duration than those short impulses that occurred in the groups. Y wow one thing that is important to the interpretation of this record I believe is that at 21.65ths of a second, which is here, if one listens very carefully to this record one hears a bell toll and that bell sounds for ,35ths of a second, It sounds rom this point to this point, It is so weak that you cannot see it in this kind of a presentation, However, a bell is composed of several musical tones and those tones can be made more easily visible by a aifferent type of analysis called spectral analysis. What I am going to show you here is a spectral analysis of that bell, The computer gave its opinion of what that was which this is a spectral analysis of the output of the filter that occurs at 21.65ths of a second and lasts for .35ths of a second. Now a spectral analysis takes the signal and calculates the strength of all of the tones that comprise the signal. The frequency of those tones is plotted along the abscissa and the strength of those tones is plotted on the ordinary, This fre- quency is 200 hertz. For your own reference, A below middle C is A40 hertz. Now this particular spectral analysis shows a spike right there which is at 220 hertz. It shows a spike right there which ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
WW 12 13 14 15 16 17 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 Docld: 32266686 Page T4 72 is at 440 hertz. t also shows this important spike which is at 480 hertz, It shows this spike at about 850 hertz, this spike at about 1,050 hertz and this spike at about 1,500 hertz. These last two are extremely prominent aS you can see, SD sow carillon bells or bell tower bells are designed to have a fundamental frequency which is called a hum note and this spike at 220 hertz would be called the hum note, It is demonstrable in this analysis but it would be hard to hear. The ear does not hear very well at 220 hertz. This spike here represents the fundamental tone of the bell as 440 hertz and that is called the strike tone of the bell. This strike occurs at a minor third above the strike tone and the presence of that spike is characteristic of power bells, These frequencies correspond to the higher overtones of the hum note and are characteristically loud, This spectrum appears to be the spectrum of a rather large bell tuned to a C or below middle C. This bell is heard to peel, as I said, at 21,.65ths of a second on this record which is right there, Mr, Blakey. What does that bell let you do? \y Mr. Barger. Wherever the microphone was that was transmitting the sound that was on the record, it was within earshot of that bell. So we are going to try also to find a bell like that in Dallas. Mr. Blakey. And then you can tell where the bell was? Mr, Barger. Yes, Ring it. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
10 | 12 13 14 15 16 17 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 Docld: 3272766686 Page 75 Y 73 Mr, Blakey. That will tell you where the microphone was? Mr, Barger. Yes, Now there is the fact of FM radios that I would like to discuss with you briefly. These radios that the Dallas Folice Department were uSing on their motorcycles were FM radios. If two or more transmitters are transmitting at the same time and one of those is louder than all of the others by an amount called the capture ratio, then the receiver hears only the loudest. If there are several radios transmitting at one time and they have about equal loudness, then the receiver will hear both at once. It is possible that the sounds that are recorded over the Dallas receiver were coming from more than one microphone at once so it is possible that this bell is located some distance from Dealy Plaza and was being picked up by a different microphone. By the same token, it is possible that during this period of the impulses that another microphone had captured the receiver besides the one in Dealy Plaza and that possibility is the strongest reason that I offer for reconstructing the event to find out exactly what the shape of echo patterns is in Dealy Plaza because in that way we can say whether those patterns of spokes do in fact correspond to the echo pattern in Dealy Plaza, vene Mr. McKinney. We will return. Chairman Stokes. We will go,vote. Mr. Blakey. Why not recess for lunch? . ; Li3a% Chairman Stokes. We will come back at ene—thértyn . [whereupon, at 12:38 p.m., the committee recessed, to recon- at 1:30 p.m. “ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
vs 5 ioe] a z 6 a 8 7 a 2 8 iS) a 9 Z = & 10 a a fT = g 12 <a ise] z 14 fa) S 15 ica] fond z 16 NR f 17 jo jaa 6 («O18 jan & © 19 3 20 21 e 7 23 24 25 74 fs." paePRR RECESS f (ne committee reconvened at 1:57 p.m., the Hon. Louis Stokes, ¢hairman, presiding.) Chairman Stokes. We will resume. Mr. Blakey. Go ahead, ghiet. Mr. Barger. When I left off we were discussing the graphical output of the adapter filter and I have now laid out next to it the graphical output of the band pass filter which is the filter that I mentioned before. It tends to emphasize the high frequency sound. Motorcycles are more of a low frequency noise maker and so it does a pretty good job of illustrating where the spikes are perhaps even better than the adapter filter. However, the adapter filter allows one to look at the shave of the spike pretty much as it is whereas the high pass filter makes it look like a short ring so as you look at this putout of the bypass filter you see that there is a burst of signal at each place where there is a spike. In fact, it is almost easlier to see on the output filter but one cannot really see that distinctive shape that the waveform has. Now peaking from this output of the band pass filter one sees almost clearly then in any other filter the group of spikes that begins at about 7.33 seconds into the record and lasts for about a second and the other group that begins at about 9.36 seconds and lasts for about a second and then finally ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3272766656 Page 76
10 1 12 13 15 16 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 — 20 21 @ 22 23 24 25 Docld: 3277666586 Page TT? 75 the next group that begins at about 14.69 seconds and lasts for about a second and then another group that begins at about 16.06 and lasts for about a second. Of ur. Edgar. That last grouping that you mentioned, those are entirely contiguous? “Mr. Barger. There is a period of only two-tenths of a second between those two in which there are no spikes and when I first looked at this last group I regarded it to be a single group for a total of three. However, it persisted for about tirspe seconds whereas the others only persisted for about ofte second each, and this is one of the reasons that I feel it is necessary to recreate the gunfire. I don't believe that one can get such a long echo pattern as this, the third group, if it is regarded as a single group, but the only way to be able to tell for sure is to try it. Mr. Edgar. Would you have to fire live ammunition given this movement and retraction? Mr. Barger. I am afraid so. The actual sound pressure level of the shockwave is a little larger than that of the muzzle blast so some of these spikes are almost certain caused by the shockwave of the bullet. As I mentioned before lunch, it is an extremely intractable problem to try to calculate the refracted sound of a shockwave and so I just don't know how to approach that calculation analytically. The only way to find out how those shockwaves are refracting ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
3 2 3 eo , Ts) 5 ps) nN Z 6 Ww . = x 7 a S 8 Nn: S a 9 z . e 5 10 Z B 11 4 g 12 © = 13 ~ faa] ze 14 = 2 15 ica] fan] Z 16 Nn 17 fa [oo] eT) jee} & © 19 2 20 21 @ 2 23 24 25 Docld: 32266686 76 around the corners of the buildings to hit the corner of the buildings with a. shockwave, and that means a bullet. W chairman Stokes. Would the fact that there is a new building somewhere in the area, now, affect that type of situation? Mr. Barger. Only in a very marginal way. Here is a sketch of the Dealy Plaza. Really all I have drawn in are the principal buildings. This is the schoolbook depository here, the building right across the corner, this is the new courthouse I believe it is called and the old one has some sort of terrets on the side. This large building across the Plaza. This building I believe is new. There is one there but it is different than the original one. Now I have sketched on this graph the sound path of acoustic rays from the northwest corner of the schoolbook de- pository to the various corners that would contribute sig- nificant echos that would be measured at a point on Elm Street where the microphone might well have been on the motorcycle and there are about a dozen of these, only one of which is from this building which I believe has been replaced. That is in fact the weakest of all of them being the farthest away and striking that corner with the sharpest angle so the one change in the local building arrangement is of virtually no significance. Page 78 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
19 5 ps) x y) 6 w a a 7 a S 8 N ) a 9 Zz E 5 10 Z jen) Q 1 2 g 12 @: 2 =) foe] 2 & 14 e fan] 2 15 tf [on] 3 16 i¢ 9) H 17 fxq faa} mB 618 E — 19 3 20 21 23 24 25 Docld: 32727666386 Page 79 si sl Gi} chairman Stokes. What about the type of a scene that would have to set up in terms of shooting? You would also have to have a shct from the grassy knoll, would you not? Mr. Barger. Yes. Chairman Stokes. Which would not be a rifle shot. Mr. Barger. Well, I don't know. Mr. Blakey. That is one of the problems, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Barger. Was that a question? Chairman Stokes. I think it was a question. Mr. Blakey. We have debated that. The question is should it be a rifle shot and, if so, what caliber and should you put a silencer on it or should you not. Chairman Stokes. And if it is a pistol, what size pistol and so forth, right? Mr. Blakey. Right. I don't think we have an answer to that. Probably the easiest thing to do is simply to go over and use a Mannlicher Carcano and see what it looks like. Mr. Sawyer. The fact that athe last shot the gun would have been aimed almost at the underpass, which is a depressed iL ; underpass, almost tunnel-likea would that affect the length of echo or sound that is shown there? Mr. Barger. Tt would if the bullet was supersonic. The bullets from rifles and the Mannlicher Carcano in particular are - supersonic, the bullet from a pistol is not. If the last shot af let me put it this way. If the second part of this last ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 300 7TH STREET, S.W. , REPORTERS BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 20 21 © 22 23 24 25 78 large group were the echo from a pistol shot, 4 that were the case, there would be an absence of shockwave and, therefore, there would be fewer total spikes in the last group and there are fewer. Y Now there also might be fewer for the reason that you gave,if it was fired more at the 5 awyer. It was very much nore “ai. The first shots AT 'z XY. TT 9) would have been more or less parallel to the depressed underpass or overpass whereas the car had moved quite a bit and, therefore, the angle shifted much more toward that underpass on the last shot and might have had some echoing effect. I don't know, I just ask the question. | Mr. Barger. The answers yes because if a rifle were fired from about here (indicating) which is where the knoll is more parallel to these building facades, and if it were a rifle so that there was a shockwave, that shockwave would never even hit these buildings as it would if the rifle had been fired this way. Mr. Sawyer. I was talking about the rifle being fired out of the sixth story. See, the angle changed from the first to the last shot which was much more aimed down at the underpass.. Mr. Barger. Yes. As the rifle becomes aimed more to the 4 what direction is that? Mr. Sawyer. It would be west, wouldn't it? Chairman Stokes. Yes. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Docld: 3272766656 Page 60