Released under the John F. Kennedy Assassination 
Records Collection Act of 1992 
(44 USC 2107 Note) 
NW 53216 6/17/17
104-10210-10028 . ee fe t ROLL Fost $3 July 1295 2) July 1994 TAANSOSTICN . j ¢ * B. Well, tae teersthinskiy, on veersaiinshiy Square, the “Detskiy Mir" store was opened only in recent years. Tnat is, vnen I began vorking in 1353, there was no “Detskiy Mir". When was it there. I absolutely do not renember, I do not renmenteor, A. One minute. B, What was there before. I also do not renember. The sane sith the Gastronon -~ when was it ovened. I do not renenber. A. ... Yhen you began vworkin« Lees B. ... I say I do not remember .... i ((XG;' A and 2 sneak at the same tine.)) A. But I was not asking you about that ((the "Detsiy ‘lir"” store)). You told me yourself, B. (XG). : A. Alright; if you worked there 11 years, etc..i., the "Detskiy Uir" j «betes: _., Was open .... re ve bs isda Sten ames When was it opened. B. When. I do not renember, I do not remember. And I also do not remember what there was in that place before, 4 4 t a “ either.
IPT RY OPN Rr TOL OGY ED BARE WS er 104-10210-10028 CAT TEE, I remember only that, on the Tsentral'nyy Street (proyezd) side, . ; there was a very welleknown, famous bar, in a basement ~- I remember this, But what kind of building there was before this, I do not renember; but in 1953, there was no "Detskiy Mir’, A, ((In English.)) Well, if you worked there, you would know exactly what was there, B, I do not remember. A. And, probably, if you had worked there, you would have dropped in there several times, And that will be my next question. B. But, please; I am telling you; please -- I do not remember what was there before the “Detskiy Mir", There was some kind of building, but I do not remember what was there. But, on that side, where Dzershinskiy Street goes down to Marx Street (Prospekt Marksa), there was a bar. A, That there was a bar there, every dog, all the KGB employees and all of Moscow knew. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) B, Yes, everyone knew -- right. But I do not remember what there was in this building, A. Why did they like to go to that bar: ‘ 1 ‘ a { ' B, Because there was always crayfish and beer there, Well, it was an interesting bar. ¢-- ~« - -- There were several bars in Moscow. : sodiSnwet A ses 2B EAB ccomne wy But this bar was called precisely "Bar". It was in a basement and it had a low ceiling. A. When did tney change the name, “Bar"?
104-10210-10028 with me the first time ~- it was either SOKOLOV or KOZ'MIN, one of ¢ 7 ea ‘Sacnet 8 nee 5 3 a 4 I do not remember; the name, ‘Bar", was changed to “Pivnoy Zal (Beer Hall)"; ‘“Pivnoy Zal" Number Such-andesuch, "Pivnoy Zal" Number Two, Imagine -- if you worked in the KGB in 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1953, etc., then probably every day you walked on Dzherzhinskiy Square from some side, Certainly. You went on Dzherzhinskiy Street from one side or another sonewhere, Yes. You probably passed along Kuznetskiy Host' every day, Yes, I can in to way believe that you have forgotten what there was in the place “Detskiy Mir" ((now stands)). I do not remember, I do not remember, Impossible. I do not renember, I tell you I do not remember, I myself can give you an exanple, Anyone can become confused, For what reason do you give this example? This is another question, We can return to this later. Well, anyway, what about the Komsomol? ; I told you about it absolutely accurately, the way I remember it, So, so, 80, Well, what did you speak about with the Komsomol Committee Secretary of the MVD the first time you saw him? It was not only the Secretary of the Komsomol Committee who spoke ae these bureau members. ner |
SECRET ike. a A- i A. ‘fell, what did he ask you. B. It was about where I was on the rolls, when I entered the Xonsonol, what kind of Komsomol tasks I have had, whether I held a responsible Komsomol position, A, One minute, he asked you where you were on the rolls, What did you tell hin- B, ((Pause)) He did not ask me like that; he asked when I entered: I told him I entered the Konsomol in 1943, So, I had had no punishmeu cs, Had I been elected to a resvonsible position: I was once elected in the Var East, where I started to work in 1950;: I had been elected in 1951. I was elected Secretary of the Party organization; this was my only elective office, but I fulfilled other tasks as 4a rankeand-file Konsomol menber. A, Again ... Party or Komsomol: B. Komsomol. * Where was I last on the rolls: I told him I was at the Navy Intelligence Point cn the Baltic, in the « Fourth Navy Fleet. I was on the rolls there for only a few months. What else did he ask me: I do not remember. He might have asked about my family status, about education.... ((XG; A and B speak at the same time.)) A, Well, I will ask a leading question -— where was your personal _ 0 ates 7 y Komsomol file located when you were working in the Baltic: to 4 { B. What Komsomol file. . Here, there is only a personal Komsomol record card. A. Where was it?
104-10210-10028 I do not know, I do not know, I can not say. If you were the Secretary of the Komsomol organization of the Second Chief Directorate, even without knowing where the card had been in the Baltic area, you would be able to answer this question. Very woll, I can tell you, of course, according to how it is supposed to be. I am telling you, not because I remember =~ I do not remember; the card, of course, should be in the Political Department. In the Political Department there is a section, a Komsomol Committee, which guides all of the Komsomol organizations, all of the primary organizations in the Fourth Fleet. But, I do not remember that, and I tell you I do not remember. Well, when the Secretary asked you where you were enrolled, he had in mind where your card was; what did you answer him’ I told him that I was a Komsomol member of the Konsomol organization of the Navy Intelligence Point of the Fourth Navy Fleet. That is all, Do you think that they ask that the card be sent- Nothing of the kind. They issue a new one, Well, are you telling the way it was in fact or are you making this up just to pass the time away: I am not making anything up. When you say .... Well, then they should have asked me, there in the MVD, “Tell us i ee the number of the military unit to which to send for inquiries”, ; But no one asked me these things. , ad If they did not ask you these things, how could they request your , card? I am telling you that they sbdgeteds + kidteth the card, certainly did not ask for a ts wert Ye we on Ne ae wet eM BEE
104-10210-10028 vemewinns, Hest capers! fy, vt? a Pen RETR my ote = anne on 1b take How docs this conform with the Regulations I do not remember. We again are confronted with a question --{ whether, ((as)) you say, they did not request your card, or you do not renenber, IJ do not say that they did not rcquest it; I an saying that they did not ask me, It means that you were not in the Komsomol, ((In a low voice.)) I can not say anything nore; think what you want. We will not say this is “think what you want”, I cannot tell you anything more. I tell you I am trying, explaining the way I know it; What I know, I know; what I do not know, I do not know, To hear a Secretary of a Komsomol organization say that they did not request the card but issued 4 new one =~ this is absurd, Why did I make that conclusion. Because no one asked me -~ neither the girl in the registry group, nor the member of the bureau of the Komsomol asked ne anything ((such as)) “Listen ((B's surname)), let us write down where and what." Well, it would be logical to ask this; let us assume .... Logical, logical. In case they had to request my card from the oid place where I was on the rolls, it would be logical for them to ask me; this is why I made the conclusion that they did not request it. Then how could it happen, for example, if you came to them ... they , accepted you for work in the KGB ==~ we will assume you came to the G é ta? RA at ee be Secretary of the MVD Komsomol with the Komsomol card, The Komsomol card does not indicate the punishment, ated e IZ there are, in the Komsomol card, ten punishments, then what about the questions of accepting you for work in the organs of the “VD? ite a tte tg arte wae pan ee ONS Ee oe Mo an 2 edt,
104-10210-10028 B, The punishments will be indicated in the Personnel file, The Personnel file will indicate that you had a punishment in the Party or Xomsonol. Indeed it will be there, A. It will be there, that is truc, but the basic document for Komsomol punishnents is the Komsono). card. CB. The card on the Komsomol member which is maintained on him at the place where he is on the rolls. A.” My question -— all of the time, we have been going over it the whole day <= how could they put you on the rolls of the Komsonol without seeing your Komsomol card. B, I did not just come in off the street. Look how you are making your judgement -- as if it were the Komsonmol Committee accepting me for work, I already was accepted for work -- this is the work of Personnel. Now would the Komsomol Committee regulate the work of Personnel’ No. A. Again ~~ you know little about what foes on. No one says that the Komsomol Comnittee controls the work. For a man who was just about to leave the Komsomol, the Secretary of the Komsonol Committee probably will speak to the Personnel Department about what they think, They have plenty of their own over-age personnel ((Komsomol members)). B. I do not know whether they talked or not -— they would not inform me, A. Had you not been a Secretary, perhaps it would not be worthwhile : asking these questions «— because, as a Secretary of a Komsomol organization, you must know this, because it is daily and routine work, ent ale Leas 1 ' . | You do not have te learn the work,it works itself in. i
104-10210-10028 B. You are confusing me a little bit; you see how it was == I was the Secretary of a small Xomsonol organization. It is just additional work. There are Konsonol Secretaries who make it tueisx vcrofession, 4 . ~ 37 a { weal arnt - woe A, I have already said that if you were just a Secretary ..,. B. This, I would have to know about Party = Komsomol work like God. a, Then, perhaps, I would ask more questions than I am asking. Most of what you have said nakes it difficult to believe that you were a Secretary. There is no basis to believe it. ((Long pause.)) Let us assume that you are the Secretary of a Komsonol organization; there are only 15 members; you simply execute the work of a Secretary, but you have other, operational work. Wnen did you find tine for a Konsomol meeting. B. Once or twice every toree months. A, Well, again -- you are saying this deliberately; right? But the Regulations state how many meetings there are to be. Of course, it is not necessary that these regulations always be observed, but someone checks, and the Secretary always is asked if a meeting was held or not, B, You are making a big issue of this; you are judging strictly officially, according to how the Regulations are to be followed. Approach this differently —= what is the Komsomol organization: i It is a small organization, just so and so many are in it = what can one do with this small organization. It is a different thing if it is the Komsomol organization of Surveillance —= it is a huge one. A. But, as far as I know .... i $ i 4 H i B. In a large organization, the pot has to keep boiling - indeed, they will require a huge organization ((to operate)) strictly. ; 2 But a smail organization ....
104-10210-10028 Tne nain wor goes on in the Second Chief Directorate, not in furvelllance, the chief work, The most inportant is Countcrintellifence, then Surveillance, I ay talking about the Komsomol organization. Well, wo will say that you do not call the meetings as frequently as the Revulations call for. No one will deny this. But, if you do not call meetincss at all, someone makes a check on then, ((XG; A and B speak at the sane time.)) eee But not one time in three months -= this is absurd. Not at all absurd, I tell you more than half -- 80 percent -- of the members are typists and secretaries from other departments, How can I pose a question concerning work in a mecting of the Komsomol organization. I cannot do that. First of all, the people come from different departments, These are support people, not operational. It is a different thing if it is a Party organization or Komsomol organization in a department, but there were none in the departments of the Second Chief Directorate. Here, questions closely connected with work are raised, This is all understandable. And here we discuss how a Komsomol member must behave, or, we will say, a Plenum, a Plenum of the Konsomol or a Plenum of the CC of the Party has just been held ~~ and this is the talk of the Komsomol organization. Ninety-nine (99) percent of our talk is about the Plenum and our 4 | agreement with it. We could not talk about work, because such is the set-up of the Komsomol organization. If, for example, ((B's surname)) were Secretary of the Konsorol 2° SG Se : oS APeRe
104-10210-10028 orranization of the Second Special Department - then we could discuss operational matters, because everyone Lelongs to the sane shop, but here all the members are fron different departments. Say, one secretary to SHUGVYANOV; another to GRIBANOY, Yell, one more last question today — how did you write in answering in the ani:cta, when you were in GRU, the question of whether you had had any rousds or contusions "No", “no; the answer was “no”, Well, how did you explain the wound on your hand. To whon. Well, to the GRU. No one asked ne; I did not tell anyone there. Why, do you think no one asked I do not know why. I tell you that I never wrote this in the anketa, If I had been asked, I would have said that it occured entirely accidently and so forth. I would stick to the legenda which I told in the Leningrad School, Wer1l, as an employee of 11 years in counterintelligence do you not think that if they were accepting you into the KGB, on that day or later they would try to establish the truth> But it was recorded nowhere. But it is recorded on your hand. Well, alright; no one asked ne. It is not in the Personnel file ... no, not in the GRU; it is not we oon > wf recorded anywhere.
104-10210-10028 A, Well, do you think it is lojical to accept a aan for a job in the Second Chicf Directorate vithout cheexing hin e- checking him through the iNedical Commission -- and only to believe hin when he says he is healthy. B. I do not know; they saw ... they received a file fron the GRU, where there was a Medical Connission report of my examination of the tine | when I was cgoin:; into the Navy GRU, ‘ 2 ty A, Quite a bit of tine had passed .... B, They did not send me to the ‘ledical Comission, I told you that I went tvo or three tines in all while I was worting in the KGB, A. Well, between us, while you were working in the KGB, did you ever explain to anyone what had happened to your hand. B, Never -- the question never cane up; no one ever asked, and I never explained to anyone. A, Well, co you think Personnel is so stupid that it never would dic this up and would not find out’ ’ B, I absolutely do not think that they know about it at ail. ; i A, You do not think that anyone checked on your service ((and on)) when this incident occurred? i B, Understand = my work in GRU began when I completed the Institute, and they opened the file on me from that time. A, That is understandable. « | B, That is ... just a minute ... from that moment ... of my first job, my first job, they opened a file on me. e. They took me from the reserve .... When EF graduated from the second course, I was given the rank of second lieutenant in the reserve. Fake omiatand
104-10210-10028 I do not know whether you can believe it .-- I am telling you how it was. When you cane into the GRU, did they accept you without your toing throuczsh the Medical Connission- I went through tine Connission, iut no one asked ne, They examined me; so what -— was my hand deforned' Yo. They asied if I had been at the front. Ko. 2 ae ee ® Were you in battle? . ‘ No, I was not in battle, That is all, They saw my age; I could not have fought. Well, if you really served in the Soviet Army or Navy, I think they would not have examined you so simply, in the way you describe it, Well, no. I went through the Comnission, through a number of doctors. I had blood tests and X-rays, No on? asked me anything. If I had had two fingers missing, say, then perhaps they would have asked me. . Well ... two fingers missing .... Every doctor looxs at the hands, and, of course, he would immediately ask, "What is this." Look here, I have other scars -= look here; my finser was split almost in half == no one asked about it. Do you think it is possible to believe that it went to simply? This is simply an “out”. I tell you I went through the Commission, and no one asked me,
104-10210-10028 1 iy _ Ko one asked a word, You nust iknow that there is a certain procedure in the KGB. (XG). Everyone goes through the Connission «= one hundred percent. I told you that I did not fo through the Conmission, Why . Why. Because the matter went throuch tie top -- instructions were given— -- - by Personnel, fron the top, It was not Personnel that selected me; it was not Personnel which found me, You understa::2? After that, I was given an “excused acceptance", if I can express myself that way -=- excused; it was unusual. Well, what do you thin: happened after this "excused acceptance" =< later, when )ODULOV was arrested’ The only thing I know is what KOVSHUK and GORBATENKO told me m= that ROZHENKO went over to see GORDATENNO, Chief of the First Department, and said, "You remember, they accepted ((B's surname)), This was on KOBULOV's instructions." There was talk; what it was about, where they talked about it, where the question was decided -= no one summoned me or spoke to me about it. That ROZHENKO went over, know from KOVSHUK and GORBATENKO, Besides that when I began working in the First Department I spoke about my work and also told GORBATENKO, Chief of the Department, how it happened that I had landed in this job. I told him just as I have told you how it happened, Well, if you had told it like this to BORBATENKO, he would believe it, but if you told it to ROZHENKO like that he would not helieve it. I tell you that neither the case officer no ROZHENKO asked me; no ene asked me how do you know KOBULOV, Where do you know him from? Why did you ask KOBULOV? ae “F
104-10210-10028 A, B. Goodbye. This is not the question I an asin, No; I an sayine that no one asked re, Please understand #- ROZHENKO coulc not as such a question, because the instructions were from KOCULOV .... How it was there, I do not ‘:now; he probably looked at the name -~ "Who is he, this ((D's surname)); on «= ((5's surnaae)); his son is a Minister; well, then everything is clear; vhy did KOBULOV telephone. =~ it means that ((B's surnane)) knows KOBULOV." Well, somehow, there was a talk; that is all, Even if one is the son of a minister and even if KOBULOV recommended the son of the ninister, that office does not wor: the way you describe, I am telling you the way it was. It was another thing with ROZIENKO. Of course, they could not refuse because of the higher-ups, but nevertheless it is their duty to send you to the Medical Commission, It does not matter whether the Conmaission will find you fit or not; the decision is made afterwards, ’ No one sent me to the Commission; notheing was done. Further, I. turned in a copy of ny certificate of graduation from the Institute; I gave it to SAXHAROV, Personnel officer of the Second Directorate, when I already was working, working. Well, we will return to this later. It is enough for today. I hope that you will think this over and give the right answers —~ not these which you have given. I only can say that I have given you only (’correct.) answers. (In English.)) That's all. “(Gnd of A/B Session, 28 July 1965)) SRAQRT
104-10210-10028 ((neginning of A/B Session, 29 July 1933)) Well, waecre shall ve begin today? Ian at your disposal; the auestions are yours. Let us go back to that first time when you completed the anxecta, to start worl: in the MVD, I have thought about this question, and I cannot tell you for sure if I completed the anxeta and turned it in to the case officer from ROZHENKO'’s section or... or I completed the anxeta when I came in on the second day after I spote with SHUENYAKOV. Gr, the personnel man, of the Second Chief Directorate, SAXHAROV, gave it to ne, But I definitely remember conpleting both the anketa and two auto~ biographies at home, The first question is e- why two copies; why not one. Two copies, two copies, They did not have such a procedure then, Absolutely -= two copies, You said that there were four or six pages to the anketa; that, too, is not true. It is absolutely true; I do not remember whether it was four or six, Not four, and not six. Look = one, two, three, four =~ I want to say sheets; that is all. Three or four sheets; not nore. The last time, you spoke about pages, and this time you are talking about sheets; there is a difference between pages and sheets. A page, a page == it is one side; on the other side of the sheet is another page. 4
104-10210-10028 A, The sane as in a book == one, two, three, four. B. Well, that is what I am telling you «- as I told you last time; four pases or si: paces, I do not renember, A, For your infornation, it was neither four nor sim. Wow many. You should know, if you really completed this an:eta, especially since you gaid that you completed it several tines when you cane in and after that. Well, «id you recall what the anxeta is called’ B. No; = anketa. A, Well, what is written on the first page of the anxcta? B. The first paze is like a book. A. Fresume that this is the anketa ((A hands a sheet of paper to B,)). B. ((Attempts to show where the heading is placed on the form:)) This is the anketa; yes...here, on the top, is written, "Anketa'.... ' Here is an empty space.- .. : e Then, there is a ruled space; on the lett side, questions; on the right side, answers, A. What is the anketa called? B, Simply “Anketa’. \ At the top, there is printed,in small letters, "Form 26" or "21" a. I do not renmenber, A. What else is printed on it? ' B. Nothing more. a a a a oie a Lue eate : . A. Explain to me ~ you worked for many years in the Second Chief Directorate —- when they recruit an agent, a Soviet citizen, any citizen, what kind of anketa do they give him to fi11 out. a wae Soy lel eZ Tis WNT ie kage YET sy
104-10210-10028 I never pave one to an avzent; I syself recruited a-ents, I never gave them an ani:eta to complete; I completed the ani:cta nyself, You yourself complete the anketa on a recruited asent. What lind of an!:cta” What is it meant for?’ I will tell you right now; this, I remember, There are two sheets; four paces ... two sheets ... yes, it is two sheets. ((Long pause.)) Well, that is it for? You yourself recruited then, you yourself completed it, Please =—- tell mo, On the first sheet there is a place for photos; in the upper right-= hand corner, there is a square for the photo, “Anketa", then, for a "resident", ‘accent’ -= you underline the appropriate designation. ((Long pause.)) What -- is it so hard to describe? You recruited, you coupleted them, and you should know, I do not remember, I do not remenber, I do not renember, Usually, you put in the surnane, first name, patronymic (XG); when you have filled in the anxeta, you receive a folder for the personal file, I am not asking you about the folder; we will come back to it. Why am J telling you this? personal file folder is something else -— we will talk about it. On the folder, there is the number of the personal file (XG). - nn er eae You said the anketa has four pages; tell me about this enketa; the | ” 4 a 3 The anketa for an agent is completed after he has been registered, and he is registered after he aas been recruited, after the recruitment.
104-10210-10028 ee Saeseeeeenneememeaitianeiaimenieneieiemeiiame on ro The first report is for the recruitcent, the second part, on the recruitment, and at the end of the report you ask for permission to include him in the active agent network of the Second Chief Directorate, Only then do we conplete tne ani:cta. We bevtan tali:ing about the ant:eta. What is the ant:eta? ; Se You told me that there are four sides, that in the rizht corner there is a place for a photo, What is this anteta called? Again, we return to this question. You were not able to tell ne what the anketa ((for KGB employees)) is called,... And I cannot name this, either... : ((xG;/ A and B speak at the same tine.)) Well, if a man has worked there for 11 years, he must have had no less than 50 agents .... If not more, if not more. More, Mcre,. And if, as you said, they themselves do not complete the anketa, then you probably filled out no less than 50 anketas, and you must know this Anketa, Well, part of these I did not fill out, because some of the agents I received already had been recruited. = asians ae + : bose acting 4 Well, anyway, you looked at their files. 4 “4 (2-3G).
104-10210-10028 A. Well, tell about these ani:ctas. You were working, you filled them out, you had personal files: what is the anxeta B. I cannot tell you, I cannot tell you by heart, ((XG; A and B speak at the same tine.)) Here is the anketa: in the ¥ight-hand corner;- It is underlined ~=- whom the file represents: at the same tine, you put in the number of the agents, you had their I cannot, the—photo.- ms en Be one "resident", “agent"; file, which you already CY cine tae know. Then you write in the pseudonym; then, the surname, first name and patronymic; the date and place of birth: nationality; education What else is there. That is all for the first page ... Residence ... no, no, no, no... I remenber -- the residence comes later. Now, on the opposite side ((Long pause.)) on the first page ... on the opposite side of the first sheet . on the second pave . on the opposite side ((Appears nervous.)) ... by whom recruited: Then you write in whether he was recruited on compromising materials or on an ideological basis; then you add when he was recruited Then ... second sheet, third pare . oh, yes, yes -= on the first, the very first pare, the place of work . I already told that So ... well, here, I do not remember what was on top, but on the bottom -=- about his relatives . about the agent's relatives, briefly, about them «~~ surname, first name, patronymic, date of birth, place cf work, address, telephone; that is all -~= I do not remember more. The only conclusion I can draw from your description of the anketa is that a man who has worked there for 11 years should not describe this | anketa only in general terms; even if, as you say, you have a poor memory, after working 11 years there, you are supposed to know at v ’ on oaths Lita edt bee melee least ninety percent of this anketa as well as you know your own five fingers. a . _ | were
104-10210-10028 ~ 20 -" I told you about eighty - ninety percent. You even cannot cive a superficial description of it == what it is called, etc. I told you -m=§« anketu for a resident or agent. {£ think that this is not the talx of a man vho has worked there for J1 years and who had quite a number of agents, residents, informants, and other employees = butwho knows the docunents very poorly. Let us go back again to the ant:eta of the Personnel file. Can you still not tell me what it was called -=— the one you filled out on vourself? Simply anketa, simply anketa. Are you sure you filled out such an anketa’ The anketa, yes. And did you fill it out Yes, yes. How does it happen that ((you do not know that)) it does not have , four or six pages, and that it is not called simply anketa". I do not know how it happens. I am telling you what I remember. You ask me, and I am answering you. Consider -~ a counterintelligence man cannot just sinply say that he does not remember. He has worked for 11 years ~- this is his bread anc butter; it is his daily work. oo . 7 Every day he bumps up against these anketas; every day — he cannot avoid then. Even if you do not see the agent, you go through his personal file; if you do not go through his file, then you go to the Archive to take a look.
104-10210-10028 ad Rte You are aksolutely rirnt. Where, this, is your knowled.:e revardine this; why has your nnowledse of then evaporated so quickly I do not now, I do not know. Well, in regard to the anketa of tho employee which you said you completed, I -- on the basis of your reply <= conclude that you nave not the slightest itdea about this anketa. What else besides this anketa did you complete when entering on duty with the KGB. All of the employees fill it out. I told you that I completed an anxeta -= two copies -= and that I made two copies of the autobiocrapiy, and I turned in some photos, Then it wae necessary to sign the secrecy agreenent, recarding state and military secrets, which was given me by SAKHOROV. Well, what was this secrecy agreenent> What was it called. I do not remenber; there was only one sheet. What was printed on it- "Ty " we here you put your surname, name and patronymic; the vest is printed; you sign and date it. What does it require of you. It requires one to safeguard military secrets, and if one breaks it he will be punished under Soviet law, etc. (2G). Well 24 “- ge are ac ee mete 2 ne egth abe pega: fhe secrecy agreement (podpiska). What was it called: I do not remember, I do not remenber.
104-10210-10028 on oe other that is the difference between this sheet and the one that agents whom you recruited sign: Well ... an ascent ... it depends on what is decided #= that kind of person he is: sometimes you take a raspis’:a or a ( nodpiska ) fron the accent. Well,--let_us_say, vou have tatien it Well, you have taken it; you tell the agent ... you do not dictate the podpis':a to hiz ... Wait one minute; I will tell you, and you will write it".... Then you tell him "You must write such a réspiska, nodpiska, that "I, such and such ~~ surnane, first name and patronynic -- freely wish to cooperate with the organs of the KG3; I promise to safeguard"... +. But what if it is not voluntary, bit “voluntary urder pressure": Well, let him write "voluntarily" ((Laughs.)) You understund,, it is already Usually, he writes, "I voluntcer to cooperate’. If he has been recruited on cenpronising materials, you have put hin in such 2 position that he nust agree. That is right. But there are those who do not agree. Well, it has happened that a recruitment has not taken place. Well, there are those who agree and sign in the end: how is this handled? To my thinking, here this is not voluntary consent, of course. In such a case .... ‘ 7s = “Shiite steel qenaamnye . 3 Perhaps he can write that "I, so-end-so, involuntarily give ny “| consent to cooperate." tn Again, let us return to the secrecy agreement which you signed -— what is it called = the one about not divulging secrets -- what was it called? “4 |
104-10210-10028 B, I do not remenber, I do not renenher, tT do not remember. A. I am sure you nust have signed it several times during your 11 years ,Of work. B. Yes, I know == two or three times, A. What was the reason for signing it two or three tines. BR. Well, I do not know, E do not know. * A. You signed it two or three tines B. Not only I, but everyone, everyone. A. Particularly the first time -- when you started working for the MVD <= you had to sign it. What was this sheet of paper called, and what was printed on it: B&B. I told you what it contained. A. You said practically nothing. B. Well, that "I, such and such =~ surname, first nane and patronymic: ((B's. full name)) ...."; then comes the printed text; thet ‘I pledee to safeguard state and military secrets," A. Approximately when did you sign it: B. When I had begun to work; I already had begun working. A. What -— after a year. B. No «« after a few days; perhaps, when I was handing in the anketas. I signed it in SAKHAROV's office. Fed meena eB oe ~. A. What you told me about swearing not to divulge secrets is wrong.  Eeemrine incr aeeeeil There was no suca document as you describe it; and the sheet did . : not say what you describe. . DRE 4 B. I am giving you the idea yehind it.
104-10210-10028 A . (Angrily)) Very well, you can tell me that I am not at all . . : It is not a matter of the thoucht of it; you started out, "I, ((B's surnane)), so-and-so ..." -- that is not what it says. Well, there is a blan:, and you fill in your nane, But not that way. To ny thinking, I signed this more than one time; at one tine, all of the departments completed this forn. ‘ Perhaps you signed it, but not the way you describe it. The Personnel Department does not work the way you say. I canuot understand in any way where the bones lie hidden «= if you were there, you must know; if you were not, then say so. I told you. I would tell you, and we would not have such long discussions. What keeps you from saying? Nothing is holding me back -- I an telling you the way it was. Well, I ask you what anketa you conpleted when you were coming in -= you do not know the name of the aneta; you do not. deseribe it properly; you do not give the proper dinensions, etc. If you made small errors I absolutely would not pay attention to then, but you are talking about such immeasurably different things. What you say about the anketa you filled out and the anketa you gave to agents to complete all adds up to one thing -=- you were not there, and you do not. know. Well, it looks that way to you. That is the way ((it seems)), not only to me, but to everyone; in all of the discussions, you cannot answer the simplest questions. . see ARM eet dete ae: ((B’s surnane)), that I am not from Russia, but from Uruguay. shai
104-10210-10028 . How is it that a man starts working for the MVD, signs a statement, ‘((but)) does not know what it is called and what it says. : Violations .. one must be punished according to Soviet law. Perhaps, perhans; because that is the way it comes out. You say that you worsed there for 11 years, but you do not now what the anketa which acents complete is called; you said you had Lusincess during the ll years with more than °0 asents. Well, I had business witi agents, with hundreds o7Z then. Then you should know. Never in ny life did I work that way -- maybe I did not do any+hing over there, brut I never worked like that in ny life, Would I sit down and say,"Ah ... how is this form written up. What is in the ani:eta?" You did not have to study it. ((XG; A and B speak at the same tine.)) The real things ... when one starts to work. Ninety percent of the KGB enployecs work that way. Nothing cood in them; they only sit and study forns, but they are workings. Well, maybe I am a strange person ... maybe something else is wrong with me. ((XG@; A and B speak at the same time.)) Alright, maybe I am starnge ... I say, maybe; I do not know; I do not renember. What does it say? I gave you the idea of it: to safeguard state and ne maeonng 3 military secrets; one is warned against divulging ....
104-10210-10028 B. Yes. Not trie; tuat is not correct. Up to 1952, in 1933, and after 1952, there were certain papers which wore signed by employees upon entering MVD and those who were voriing there; and I want you to tell me what you signed. Wnat you told me absolutely is not correct. If you know, tcll me; what you told me does not fit. I know nothing nore, Well, further ... what else did you fill out. I filled out nothing more. There is sonething else you must complete; you cannot avoid it. ((Pause.)) There is something else that is filled out, all absolutely everyone has to fill it out -=- whoever works in the MVD or whoever cones to work there. I do not know. Well, I will give you a leading question «8 it is filled out not only in the KGB, but also in the MVD, in the Militia, and in the NOOP at the present time ... at that time, in the MVD, ‘GB, Militia and also nany other organizations. You cannot get around*this in any way, because it is a document which is confirmed by the CPSU Central Conmnittee ~~ every man must complete it, although it is of no special significance for the “VD or the KGB, I do not know. . Well, in the nature of your work ~- as I think over ((your)) 11 years — you probably saw Personnel files on employees who had been released: ee 8 — Did you personally see the Personnel files on the employees. ((Speaks with uncertainty .)) I saw; I saw.
104-10210-10028 A, Well, at least we can proceed from here. ; When you opened the file, it is there; and you personally filled it out -- naybe one tinc, maybe two tines, probably a couple times over the ll years, you conplcted this forn. It is also an anketa, but it is not called "Anketa." I do not now what otnaer kind of leading question I can five you, B. Where you wormed before == you show this on the-anieta.. 2 . _ ‘,.. Your service record, I do not know, I do not knov. On the next to last sheet is indicated your whole, whole service record, since conpletion of the institute. A. For your information, that which you are thinking about now and what you say is not on the next to last pace. B. On the next to last page -- I remember this absolutely accurately. On the last paze ... ah ... the elected positions are indicited -~- elections as deputy, medals, inventions. But the next to last page concerned service. A, Tne last page contains nothing; it is blank. B. No, no, no; the Jast page asks if you have been elccted ~ for example, as a deputy, a judge e= have you invented anything, have you any scientific works, awards, and the signature comes on the last page. A. Tnat is not the way it is. B. It is absolutely right -- I remember this. A. Well, again -= what other anketa had to be completed. What was it called’ B. I cannot say; I do not know; I cannot say; [ do not remenber. What document ycu have in mind I do not know. You say it is not the anketa -—- I do not know what it is. 2 URS Areas
104-10210-10028 A, Well, it is not called a ant:cta, but in general, {t too is an an:eta; but it is not called an “Ani:eta", There are even two other documents in the Personnel Tile. We will return to thei, later. The one we are tailing about is .tlar in questions to the "An':eta", ((Pause.}) Really, I seriously B. aAnd I an serious; know you are not triddin,g; I understand you. ((Pause.)) I do not remember; I do not know. a Cae, Ce ((Long pause.)) I de not know, A. Did you ever conplete or sisn a service record (nosluzhnoy spiso) : B. I myself never filled one out; this is Personnel’s business. I only did, as told you, on the last, the next to last pare, indicated all my employnent from 1945 to 1950. No -~ I even indicated time spent at hich school; but I do not : remember the nuwaber of the school. For 1945 to 1950, I indicated the Institute and then, the places where I worked: Sovetskaya Gavan -- Intellicence of the 7th Fleet; in the Baltic, Sovets:. A. I do not want this -— we already have passed this stage -= you know nothing about the anketa. I. And I do not think we need return to it until you tell me what it is about, what it is called, and if you really filled it out. If you did, you must know. If you cannot tell me, you never completed it and never saw it, and you never were in the MVD. Now, we are talking about the service record. dhnat did you hear about it, and what is it? j . ee wes ates ~ + Cy et Te ete : B. I never completed a service record. This is a document for officers of the Army, the NGB, or the HVD; it is completed by Personnel men. A. I asked you if you completed it and signed it. I did not complete it, I
104-10210-10028 A. This is not the next to last pace, but in the middle of the ant:eta. You do not !now the size of the ani:eta, and 1 co not intend tellin: you. B. You do not. have to tell. I remenhber «= it is on the next to last page. But here you co not show your nositions as you do in the service record, A. Well, if therc was such a sect::.: in the aniieta, what was this section called. Again you were wrons when you said that the position is not indicated there, There the positions are indicated exectly, and there is a special column for this. B. Yes, the position is shorn, because I wrote, for exanple -=- translator, Intelligence, 7th Navy Fleet; city, Sovets:aya Gavan. A, Well, do not give ne now some confirmation that you were a translator. We will return to this question. Further -- let us lay aside the matter of the service record. Perhaps you sizned it, just so .... But, again, it is net understandable way it took the \VD three or four years to have you sign it. For your information, the service record is written up on a newly accepted officer, no matter where he cane fron -- fron nilitary intelligence or the GRU -- or whether he is a nilitary officer or not, ag soon as the order on his acceptance in the organs of the VD is signed. n? <te mp swe Be Excuse me; perhaps I can add something and correct you. A. Please, please. 4 ‘ &
104-10210-10028 Perhaps you have soncthines clse in mind here. Look «= the Second Chief Directorate; there is their own Personnel officer Tnis Personnel officer docs not have the files on all of the enployeces in the Second Chief Directorate; they are in Central Personnel. Tais Personnel officer, fron the noncent of the new officer's acceptance as an employee, opens a personal record card (lichnaya uchetnaya iartochka) as 2 substitute for the service record. I know what xind of card it is and where they keep it. Tne Personnel officer keeps it, from the-monent of his acceptance, because the Personnel officer docs not have the Personnel file; but the service record, I sisned only one time «~.}{ I do not know by whon it was filled out, by Central Personnel or by SACIAROV. At the end of this service record, {t states that as of such and such a date, you have so many years, months and days of service. Ny question was -- why did it take the !VD four years ... I do not know; I cannot say; I do not remember; I do not know. According to the regulations --j and every Personnel officer knows this «.- the service record is filled out as soon as the order ((of acceptance)) is signed; vell, maybe, two or three days will pass ((before this is done)); in any case, not more than a week. In this service record, the order nunber is recorded, as well as is | the position and office assignment. Well, it is probable that the Personnel officer put it there right away ..... In the service record. ~ a i ie sewer} ; F This is doue by the Personnel officer, never by the employee himself. - 4 ((XG;_ A and B speak at the same time.)) I saw it the first time ... may be it was ... it was ... this service record ... in the Personnel file in the GRU ... in the Personnel file it was.
104-10210-10028 ros ] That {s another service record; there is a big difference. fa No, no; Ian saying that there ws service record there. Fron the berinning, probanly I saw it only one tinc; they shoved it to me, not with the Personnel file, but separately, as was done vith all the caployces. Please ... do not ret upset. No, I an just tellin:; you how it was, Because, as soon as the order is signed to employ you, the service record is opened, and the employee is invited over. If he was in the GRU or was sinply an Arny officer, this is checked against the old service record to find out whether it all has been filled out correctly, day by day, so that there are no crrors. Then, a new service record is started on the empleyee. He sicns it, and perhaps he will never see it arain. Vell, one tine ... but not right any. No one is saying that this is done on the second day .... I already was working in the Seventh Department .... Let us leave the service record. & What other anketa is there -= it is not called "Anteta". Lut something else; everyone, one-hundred percent, fills out this an':eta.... es, I do not know. , -.- Working in the organs .... You know, when you told me avout signing the secrecy agreement, etc .... Yes. a . 2 ar wee eat cee any cep orang The way you described its format, it seemed as if you were not a af staffer, but an agent; for agents, this format begins approximately bo j they way ycu described it; but, for staffers .... ; ( 4 3 Well, there was no format for agents -— neither printed nor typed; the agent wrote it ; ‘mself, in his own handwriting. ’ Ps ee Sa # Pog oe ee ae af x.
104-10210-10028 A, I did not say whether it was printed or not; I simply said that it was the sane format. Two absolutely different thints ((XG; A and B speak at the same tinc.)) Well, approxinately resembling ((the format for)) .1n arent. The agent has a conpletely different agreenent -- that he voluntarily has agreed to cooperate vith the orzans of the (GB or VD and that for conspiracy's sake he has such and such a nseudonyn, and he will sign his reports with it. Tell me what you sign:< «nen you cane to work for the MD, I told you. You told me nothing ~~ you only said nonsense. Well, you may accept ny xplanation or not. I cannot Lie to you or think up sonething. I told you what the format was and the thought behind it; I do not remcnber it word for word. One printed sheet ... You write in your surname, first nane, patronynic, and then the rest is printed -— “I swear to guard the state and nilitary secrets, and if I violate this, I will be punished under Soviet law".... That is not right. -.. And you sign it. It is not right ((about the words)), "I will be punished ander Soviet law" «=< such an agreement has not beea enforced since 1940. No ... well ... I am telling you the thought, the thoucht. 1. - If you worked there, then you should know this very well.
104-10210-10028 BR. well .,. responsible accordin:: to Soviet law, for divul::ing state and military scerets. Tae words "To be punished (sarat'sya)" should be thrown out, A, Well, anyway, what other cniieta is there. B. I do not !:now, A, Did you ever see or do you nov about the Spravia Forg No. 1? B. No; I do not know, I do not know. A, And you never had anything to do with it. B. I do not know, I do not know. A, And you never saw such a spravia. B, (2-3G) I said that I did not see it. A. Well, every MVD employee wao has worked even a few months knows precisely want the Spravia Form No. 1 is; no explanations are required at all .... B. I do not know; I cannot .... A, ... And you should know about it very well. Especially if you had subordinates and if you were deputy chief of section, chief of section, or higher. Whenever you transfer them or promote them you were supposed to see it and not just one time, but a hundred times. B. ‘Well, someone is transferred, promoted .... A. If you are pronoted, for exanple, your case officer, PETROV, to senior case officer, it could not be done without the chief of section. B. But, of course, the chief of section will write .... A. Well, if you were a chief of section, a deputy chief of department, chief of department, étc., you always see Spravka Form No, 1.
104-10210-10028 Personnel officer takes it from the Personnel card (uchetnaya Kartochka). On -- this is what you have in mind: Fors No. 1. Or, for example, you recommended .... nnow, I tsnow. When someone is promoted in position or rani: ~= I tinow this docuncnt; I know it; I ‘snow it -= Form No. 1. That is what the Spraviia is called «-}"Form No. 1." And for your inZzormation, this sprav'a has nothine to do with rank, has almost nothing to do with rank. No; it give is the form for rank, Here, the point is ... I will tell you right now: you yourself do not even conplete the first section (chast’). You write sone sort of evaluation Cczharakteristitsa); for exanple «= "Comrade PET?OV has been working in the Seventh Department for such and such a time; he is a case officer; he has show himself to be capable in performance of his work; he is a rood ascent handler (agenturist); he is on good terms with his subordinates; he has taken an active nart in operations asainst foreigners wees Then, at the end, you give the conclusion that he is qualified for pronotion to the position of senior case officer. This will be signed by the chief of the department -~ or, in his absence, the deputy chief ««j and it is approved by the chief of the directorate. Then, it goes to Personnel for the order. You already have told about this in part. Personnel fills out the first page themselves; for example, SAIKHAROV did this, but not the Personnel group headed by KUDREV docs it. 7 a hee : bo You write only the evaluation; the rest of it is done by Personnel. ] 4 All the necessary information is taken from Personnel files, or the i { ' We will not talk about how it is written up, because you are not telling it correctly and I do not even wnt to hear it. at
104-10210-10028 | “Soa? an. ~~ od = B. I am telling you how I did it, how it actually was, A. Did you ever conplete it yourself. B. Yes, I myself filled it in. A. Well, please, tell me what it is for. You described the second side about right, a part of it, one tenth of it. If you completed it yourself, please == continue. B. I told you -- the first page: the surname, first naue, patronymic, rank, date of birth; length cf time in grade and position, such information ... A. What else’ All docunents require the information you nentioned. B. Party affiliation A. Well, this again is for everyone... B, Well, on the second sheet, you give 2 orief evaluation (kharaktristika) / of him ... well, it is not an evaluation (kharaktristika) .... A. How many pages does this spravzxa have. B. (Long pause.)) Just the first and second sides. That is all. A. On the first side, you said biographic data; what else: B. That is all «= that is the first page. A. Wrong == well, what is there on the second side besides what you gaid -— besides the recommendation for assignment. Fy B. There ia a suggestion for assignment (kharaktristika) which gives - 4 z a description of this case officer; it is signed by the chief of i the department. so j i . i Then, further down, (({is a signature line)) specially for the chief «= “_— either for the mate chief or chief of the ieee who gives thet "approval. Seid
104-10210-10028 A. Well, my conclusion is that you know nothing about Spravka No. 1. ((Long pause.)) Well, what other an:eta is there: I an returning to the old question. There is still another anketa which the employce hinself completes. Tue Personnel file is not connlete without it. Although tae ant:eta is not needed very auch by the G2, nevertheless it is provided for by the Central Co:nnittee of the CPSU, and everyone conupletes it. And they conplete it not only in the KGB, but also in all government institutions. B. ((Long pause.)) No, I absolutely do not remember. A. It particularly relates to the Komsozol and Communist Party members. Some who are not Komsozol or Communist Party members also fill it out; for example, speciali-s. Of course, they do not fill it out in factories, because there are no Personnel files there. B. Well, yes .... ((Long pause.)) I do not know. A. I can only make the quick conclusion that you cannot confirm that you were an employee, not only of the Second Chief Directorate, but in general -—~ an employee of the MVD because you do not ;:now the simplist things which a sinple officer of the organs should know. I am not dwelling on petty details. B, You are dwelling only on petty details. I do not know where you get these questions; these are only petty SO ett re annmemneeneie es te ee details. . a A. From the KGB; that is where I was trained. 7 a B. Honest to God, you must have worked in Personnel for 20 years. “tye i A. Well, I was not just in Personnel, but we will return to this. OT z . 4 ie B. Well, you had to have worked in Personnel for some time, if you ask _ for,gyech details. ste
104-10210-10028 I think you know better. I. do not know. I think you know very well. If you give me your nane We will talk about this later, when we find a common lancuace; maybe we will have a drink to our health. Now, how do you explain I do not know how to explain; what I remember, I tell you: I am trying .. If one considers only that you could not answer my most elementary questions, your approach, your processing, and your confusion of one anketa with another -=- the one about divulging ((secrets)) -=- only one conclusion can be made: that you did not only not work in the Second Chief Directorate, but you did not work in the organs. Then, according to what you think, I did not work anyvhere. Why: fe ee ” ; Because you said that this ((other)) anketa, this paper ((is completed)) in civilian organizations by Konsomol members and Comnunists. a. Yes. ... And even by some non-Party members, those with higher education. Then, in general, I did not work anywhere. My question is ~= where were you. Where was I? , ! ‘that is my question. PR Honestly, I told you the first time that you have a great sense of o humor. We have arrived at the point where I did not work anywhere; then,
104-10210-10028 eet vee, A. _ What. happened? a» 39 « Not there: -you did not work there. Yes, I did not work anywhere, not cven in civilian jobs; rowherc. To my thintinz, it is possible: there are such thines; perhaps you did not worls even in a civilian job. Well, I really did not work anyvtiere i: civilian jobs. Yes, there are some jobs in which a person may be listed, but does not work. Do you understand: That is a food job; he is listed, but does not work anywhere. Listed, but does not work. That la good work; good pay; very good work. Of course, the pay is always good; it is always good, by the way; and it is not a bad life for the tine being; then, as they say, luck changes. I do not know what other document you have in mind; JI do not remember, Well, we are now talking in general. I have told you that I am trying to ... ((B moves forward to desk, trying to read A's notes.)) ~-. I see that you are trying -~ to read my notes — but there is nothing written here, except what you have said. I am not making any notes other than what you have said. What, what ((As if he does not understand)). I am saying, do not look here; if you wish, I will read it to you. Well, I cannot see it. Even if you show it to me, I cannot see what is written there. Is your eyesight poor? Yes, yes.
104-10210-10028 tr emey B. A. Well, I wanted to put him in the "National" Hotel; and he really did I had ((poor eyesight)). I wore glasses at the theater, at the movies, for drivins an autonobile; I can read a docunent, but at this distance I cannot sce. Now, beings here, I an... (C(XG;) A and 3B speak at the same tine.)) Well, I am not writing anything here. I am writing cown just what you say. Excuse ne; you have made a great nistae. I did not for one part of a second nave the slightest thourht of reading or looking at wnat you nave written down. I do not have any secrets at all here; absolutely none at all. No, no, no; I told you about my eyes. Can you give ne an example -= you worked there for 11 years «- of reading the Personnel file of an employee who had been released, or of employees wno became agents, or under some other circunistances, So, 80 .... Did you ever read or see the Personnel file of an MVD enployee? Of course, I lool:ed into then. Sometiues the employees would brin: them. When I was working in later years in the Seventh Department, I supervised three sections .. For example, SUXHOTSKIY, fron the Hotels Section, cane .... Or, for example, I.selected a resident .... For exenple, TOPESHKO, from the Fourteenth Department of the PGU..... a : ey work there for 2 few months .... we 4 Or, something else .... e C] . Maybe the Personnel file, maybe the sumaary (spravka) from the Personnel file .... You say the Personnel file and even wrote a summary ....
104-10210-10028 oe Tee a, You do not even know the ABC's. i did not write it; an enployce did. An employee, but nevertheless vou saw the file, fven if you did not urite it out yourself, you could say ten tines more about the Personnel file than what you have said, I an net asiing you for a conpletcly detailed description, but only about those docuients which you must know as an euployee; not only a tnowledge of them, one cannot wort. But you cannot explain the sinplest things to me; and I really cannot believe that you were there and vyortied there. IY do not know. I do not know waat kind of document you have in mind. I saw a Personnel file, and .... Everyone has seen the document about which we spoke. Your knowledz¢ is so small, so slight, that the lovest agent of the KGB, a sei:sot, knows nore then you inovw. That is the question =_ because this poor selssot also fills in ant:etas. For what’ For whon. For Personnel files. Yell, you tell ne why. For the personal files of an agent. You tell me why -= because that poor seksot ‘nows more about the KGB or the HVD than you. That is my question -- where were you: And what did you do. I told you where I was and what I did,
104-10210-10028 Taat is not an answer == "I told you,' "I told you”, You have said much, but it does not fit. ((Pause.)}) Well, I will five you sone tine to thint: ahout it. We will tate a brea for lunch, ; I hope that you will tell me soncthing reasonable, Besides waat I have said, I cannot say anything nore wiich is reasonable in reply to your auestions -= not because I do not want to, but because I do not know. You cannot answer elenentary questions; hoy can I ;::o more deeply into those ani:etas, itc.7? Well, do not get upset; have a sood lunch; ((In English.)) Good appetite. ((In English.)) Thank you very nuch. You are so kind; thank you very much. ( (LUNCH BREAX)) A. Well, that is right. ((In English.)) Well, where are wo now: (2G) I thourht., “Such questions!" A man says from the first day that he has come to help clear up things; you are not helping me to clear up things <= you are dragging ne to the botton. Just the contrary. "To clean up". I was just thinking about what we just finished. ' What other kind of documents can there. be. One must give a copy of the birth certificate, a copy of the diploma, and a certificate (spravka) from the place of residence, I do not deny it. Well, what other kind of documents are there:
104-10210-10028 $s . These are peneral «= everyone presents then; not only in KGB, but in so many other institutions. Well, then .... Well, I say, ££ ohne has a fourth crade education, no one will ask for his diploma. Well, he will give proof if he finished hnizh school. Of course, if he only finished the fourth grade he will not present any docunents. They say that SHUBNYAXOY went throuch four grades only. Well, they say he is not a bad nan. And a clear head, I do not deny it =— what is true, is true. When you cane out of the Navy, wrat kind of a document did you have == do you renmenber? I just had a leave docunent and ay officer's identification; that was all, What did you do with the officer's identification? I turned it in; I gave it to SAXHAROV when I came on duty; they kept it. They kept it. They did not return anything. And the leave certificate -- where did it go? It did not go anywhere. vonten Wap cad open Psy ian RR oS pea I probably destroyed it. Well, we have talked quite a bit about the unketa; let us talk about still another question —— as far as I know, before you went on auty in the organs of the MVD, you were married?
104-10210-10028 B. Right. A, What information did you give m=. or wnat did the LVD ask you -- aLout your forner wife. B. I vrote about her; I listed her; I srote I had been married; I Cave the information #- surname, first nane, patronynict -— about ny wife; all information.’ A. ‘What discussion was there on this subject -— about your first wife —~ in Personnel of the MVD or with th: :niefs of the Second Chief Directorate. B. There was none; there was absolutely none, with the chicfs. Cut I told Personnel how it was -=§ that I had lived with her for a short period of time, that I had been divorced from her in 1952. ‘A. Was there anything in the ant:eta. B. Do you have in mind whether or not I had a certificate of divorce. I did not have one, because it == the dissolution of the marriaze --« was indicated by stamp in the officer's identification. A. If it was stamped in your officer's identification B. In the officer’s identification, at the end. A. But some one has to have the certificcte of divorce. B. She likely has it; I did not need it. They stamped it inmediately in my officer's identification, and that was enough. A. Were you yourself not interested in having evidence of the divorce? On what basis did they record it in your officer’s idencification: : Pe 2 ston aU 2s RE, On the basis of some document .... B. Well, there was the decision of the City Court; furthermore, the court itself sent notification to deduct alimony from ny pay. I never received ny notification. i
104-10210-10028 “SBORET . You mean to say that you received nothing at all Absolutely nothing. It was stamped in my officer's identification, about the dissolution of the marriage, where is the certificate on the dissolution of the marriace itself. Why did you not have it It is not a certificate; it is a court judgement. I did not have, and I did not need it. It was cnough for me to have the divorce recorded in my officer's identification. Anyone can write in his officer's identification. Well, no; it is an official stamp; it is not written in by hand == it is a stamp, with a seal and a signature. Who stamps the book. The book was stamped by the ZAGS office, not by the court, but by the ZAGS. Well, then I had something in hand. You are right -- I submitted it, and they put in the stamp, in the ZAGS office. Well, if ZAGS stamped it, on what basis did they do so. On the basis of a piece of paper, of course; they do not just simply put it in. This piece of paper, of course, has a name, does it not. I do not remember. Fell, if you got a divorce, you must know. But I do not remember (7How was it? !7) Then, how was it? Well, it was the judgement of the court, the court judgement. $55
104-10210-10028 ~ A56 @ A. The judsenent of the court is one thing .... Be. ... An extract from the court judgement, «hich I gave to ZAGS, and they put in the stamp. Tnat is all. A. Well, this still is not all. B. Oh, yes, right, fight; one minute e= before they put in the stanp, I had to pay. Well, I paid the court ices. A. Tnat is not what I have in mind. When they gave you the extract from the court judgement, you went to ZAGS; ZAGS likely gave you a piece of paper, wiich has its own name. B, They did not give me anything. They stamped it -= that the marriage had been dissolved, and that is all; nothing more. A. The stamp is put in by ZAGS, not only on the basis of the court jucgement; ZAGS provides something else also ... B. ZAGS gives nothing. A. Because the court decision still is not an official document. B. The City Court decision is official; the extract has a seal.-- because the first court is a rayon court; it does not make a decision -- its task simply is reconciliation .... A. Well, I am not talking about that. B. ... And that is already an official decision, © 9° 7" ile MO es as A. But the decision of the court, even with the seal, has to be presented to the ZAGS. B. Right. A. To receive .... “B.° So as to dissolve the marriage.
104-10210-10028 A. They resister the dissolution of the narriaze. Well, if the divorce really too placo -=— we will return to this later and tali: about it --— there is a procedure: a certificate is issued on the dissolution of the uarriare. No, no; no certificate; there was nonc. question. Vhat do you want me to co -=Shov youa certificate—ofthe dissolution of a narriage. No, you do not have to. If they give it to cveryone, then way did they not give you one. They did not give me any certificate on the dissolution of the marriage. On the basis of the certificate, a notation can be made in the passport or they can make a notation in the officer's identification. There is no other document woich is valid for this purpose. You are confusing it with somethin: else. I am not confusing it with anything. We are talking about a certificate. There is a certificate of birth, a certificate of death, and a marriage certificate; and there is the certificate of the dissolution of a marriage. Well, then, she received this certificate of dissolution of the marriage. It is given to both, because both parties are equal. I did not have one, and I did not present it anywhere. I only nad the extract from the court decision. ((XG; A and B speak at the same tine.)) Without that document, they eannot put in the stamp; that is the
104-10210-10028 aT’ ’ eit oat MVD react to this fact -- that the father of your first wife, a ‘The stamp was put in on the basis of the extract fron the city court; the stanp. Woll, let us put this aside. The antieta requircs you to list your former wives or husbands, asking for their surnames, first nanes, patronymics, birth dates und places, the address at the current tine, and whether you maintain contact. What did you answer to this question when you were coming on duty. That did you write about your first wife. I can tell you what I remenaber. "My former wife -- ((B's surname.)), Avgustina Xonstantinovna." I indicated that she had not changed her name then I indicated where she lives. I indicated that actually we were separated in 1343, but legally we were not divorcéd until 1952. Well, did you tell the LIVD about her father: I said that he was a member of the Military Council, with 4IUKOV, Lt. Gen. TELEGIN ... that in 1947 he was arrested ... for, as far as I had heard, according to an article of the Criminal Code, for pillaging in Germany, but. actually, he was arrested because of his association with ZHUKOV, when they were working on ZHUKOV; that is all, And what do you think ~-— what would the Personnel Department or the chiefs of the Second Chief Directorate +. how would they look upon the fact that you married and lived with your wife for a year while her father was inprisoned ~-=— and then yal left her <.. how did the menber of the Military Council, a big man, whon they knew in the Central Committee and everywhere, and then he was in jail ... and | this was so from the day you came on duty in the organs ... and more -- that you were paying alimony for child support —= how did i the MVD react to this? an de 7 qe
104-10210-10028 B. I do not know; I told them; I told this first to tne case officer, and then I told it to the Personnel man, SANIAROV; also, in conversation, I told this to GORMATENNO, when we became acouainted oj I told his in detail; he could have knowm this fron my Personnel file, but anyway he tali:ed to me personally. A. The second question «= then you were completing the anketa, of course, you wrote that your father was a2 Minister; how, then, did you answer the question of the social oricin of your parents. on B. "From the working class." A. What did you write about the social origin of your nother. B. I wrote that she was fron the professional class (sluzhashchiy). A. But, actually, who was she. B. ((Long pause.)) Well, why did I write “professional class". Because her father was an architect. Me was in the civilian field. Oh, you have in mind the social origin. "Nobility." A, Well, you I:now, there is a column in the anketa, and ... B. I wrote, “from the professional class." A. The social origins of your parents -- what did they do before the Revolution? B. Father was from the working class; before the Revolution, mother was in the gimnaziun. : rk _ A, And after the Revolution: B. Likewise, after the Revolution she was studying, and then she ; . 4 became a housewife. ‘ 7 eo 4 . i A. Well, I am asking -- there is a colum .... f . i B. I indicated "from the professional class",
104-10210-10028 A, Well, we will say that the VD ... well, naybe it was carliecr, in the GRU ... they were checkin’; and discovered that your mother's social oricins Were with the nobility .... B. So .... A. Fron the well-to-do class. B. Yes, when crandfather was divorced, so ... So. A. What effect did this have on your accentunce for wor!:. Did anyone taliz to you. B. I do not know; no one asied ne about it; I never nentioned that erandfather was of the nobility. Well, you see ... even if they found out -- and they lit:ely did -= then father's position would have smoothed it over. A. Well, what do you think. Someone must have asi:ed ... as you said your frandfather was an architect, was arrested somewiere, and was in prison ... well, as you say, they must have dug it up, and I think they dus this up, too. B, But he was rehabilitated before the ceath of STALIN, rehabilitated before STALIN's dekth. A. Well, we are talking about, as you said earlier ... he died in prison. B. Yes, right. A. What relation did this have, even if he had been rehabilitated --= you did not say earlier that he had been rehabilitated; this is the t i { first time I have heard this — what effect did this have on your acceptance for work? ere ee .. . 5. .SReeee oe, . a woereedE ee pers - feP ame <A P ARAN Se we B. Absolutely none, because there was absolutely no discussion on this subject. =e — of tell you, no one asked me anything; I never was ccncerned with this question, never.
104-10210-10028 W~ 51 « A. but, accordiny to loztic, as an cuployee of counterintolli-once an, even if your father occupied a niga position ~- do you not taink it would be interestins; for the IVD and counterintellisence and for Personnel to find out about this and to speak with you B. Well, they did not spea with re. Of course, I ‘:new. I saw hin in my childhoed, when I was three or four years old; naybe I waw hin several tines. Well, he did not live with the fanily; he vas not living with the family when I was born; he was not livin: with the fanily when mother was a girl. A. Well, that is understood, You said earlier that your mother received her education thanks only to the grandfather because he was earning good noney. B. Wo, I did not say it like that -- that she received her education But what kind of education did she set. She was studying in school, in the cimnaziun. Tnen, she had just besun studying in a ginnasiun, and then the Revolution began. Beg a She was only wae A. Well, you said more than that -— you said that he even helped your fatner at the same tine, when your father was studying. B. You did not understand ne, you did not understand ne. ' I said == yes, grandfather helped his fanily, he helped his three daughters; that is, he gave mneney to his former wife, and they were studying and grew up, because of this. A. Well, if you say that the MVD or KGB dug this up, ther someone nust “have spoken to you. : Of course, having in mind that you were the son of a Minister, they would not press too hard; they could ask, politely.
104-10210-10028 SEEREDL PR, Wa, a little They really chectzed! A. Well, something was evident to the GiU, Also, because the GRU also checks throuch the GD but no one else. Be Richt. A. There probably it also was B. And there was no discussion with ne about this {n GRU Personnel. A. When you conpleted the anxeta, you wrote that your mothor came from - instead of the nobility -- the professional class, and you said nothing about the arrest of your grandfather. Probably you had to indicate or give some explanation about then; and the same thing is true about your wife's father -=- not only about the fact that he had been arrested, and that you were living with your wife when he was in prison: if one is to believe your storeis, you were present during the arrest .... B, During the search; at the tine of the arrest Le was not in Moscow; he was on a hunting trip. A, ... During the search of TELEGIN's apartnent. It is very hard for ne to belicve that no one talked to you on this subject and that this did not affect you in any way when you cane on duty with the organs; we must keep in nind that this was still in 1953. B, Well, just a minute. This might have had some effect, and maybe this is why in January and, F February, they were dragging it out -- they were checking on me, "May be it did have sone effect -- they had decided that there was something in question. But in Harch 1353, I do not know .... STALIN had died, and XPBULOV, who recommended me, was in == maybe this played a purt; I do not know.
104-10210-10028 “Maybe it did have sone effect ~~ they had decided that there was ea aapate geal Wa, a Little They really checked! Vicell, something was evident to the GiU, Also, because the GRU also checks throuzh the i:GD but no one else. Richt. - ‘There probably it also was And there was no discussion with ne about this in GRU Personnel, When you completed the anketa, you wrote that your mother came from _ instead of the nobility «= the professional class, and you said nothing about the arrest of your grandfather. Probably you had to indicate or give some cxplanation about them; and the same thing is true about your wife's father -~= not only about the fact that he had becn arrested, and that you were living with your wife when he was in prison: if one is to believe your storeis, you were present during the arrest ... During the search; at the tine of the arrest Le was not in Moscow; he was on a hunting trip. ... During the search of TELEGIN's apartnent. It is very hard for ne to belicve that no one talked to you on this subject and that this did not affect you in any way when you cane on duty with the organs; we must keep in nind that this was still in 1953. Well, just a minute. This might have had some effect, and maybe this is why in January and, February, they were dragging it out == they were checking on me. something in question. But in Harch 1953, I do not know .... STALIN had died, and XPBULOV, who recommended me, was in -= maybe this played a part; I do not know.
104-10210-10028 But no one spoi:e to me about ore of these questions, with the exception of that about my wlie }#= they spoie to me about that: they spol:e to me when I... boerore, curing, and after ny processing and when I nad berun workings. I talied about ny wife, listed her in the ant:eta, and spoxe about father. A. And waat did zou answer to the question ahout what ':ind of relations you naintained with her at the current time, at the berinnin: of 1353, B. What relations I had absolutely no contact with her; I did not write it, but I said that I had seen her in 1952 when I came back, because I wanted to see the girl; I bought some ri‘cs, etc. And then I saw here in the rayon court and the city court; that was all -.{ I never saw her after that. . I answered that "I have no contact with her." Because the money, before that, wus sent to her e- — did not take it to her; it was delivered to her by a driver. After the divorce, the money officially. was taicn fron ny salary. A, And when was the money deducted from your pay -— when you began ’ v working in MVD? B. Well, they began deducting the money from the very beginning, because the money was deducted from my pay after the decision of the court in 1952. A, Yes, but where was the executive order : B. Well, that was not given to me, but was sent probably to the Ministry ; i ' of the Navy or to the military unit where I served. . Tne money was deducted, and I did not even see the executive order. (pore A. When you began working in the MVD, what did they deduct for the first I or second nonth.
we A, + ee romntpnnen oo Well, they decucted 25 percent. “What tas tie sun of money? I do not remember; it was 23 percent after tax. Is it tovzical or not to uake such a conciusion «=. that a man steps into a job of the nost important directorate of the security organs, in counterintellicsence, the Second Chief Directorate, waich works avainst foreigners. So, He comes to the job and he has had no training whatscever up to that time with regard to counterintelligence work. Earlier, he had not worked in the orgars of the UGB of the MVD. ne In this year in which he enters, he will have passed his twenty sixth birthday, and most likely he will be neither a Party or “Nomsomol member. His father holds a high position, but the MGS has sone ‘kind of a dirty file on hin. His mother is of noble origin; his grandfather died in prison as a Trotstyite. He was married to the daughter of a ceneral then in prison. Well, tell me, 25 a counterintelligence officer == is it logical or not i to accept him for wors in counterintelligence” Do _— think SHUBYYAXOV or GRIBANOV or the Deputy Minister or the ! Chief of Personnel Directorate ~«- even if KOBULOV has recommended hin . : ’ i would raise a hand to sign papers accepting him for work. I do not ade whether this would raise a hand... or on what basis. This man did not just come in off the street; he was already working in the GRU. | On the basis that everything came from the top, that KOBULOV had made a telephone call, that father occupied a certain position -= that is all.
104-10210-10028 A, well, you ‘snow, if you wori:ed in counterintellicence, that for the «GB it is of no significance that a man has worked in the GRU or any- where clse. B. It is not as thoush they were takine Q nan just out of the institute, but a man who already had been checked; and the GRU checks throush the MGB e=- you just spoke about. that -- throush the UGB, A. Well, if the GRU decided, “Thank Neavens! We nave gotten rid of hia' . Lord, lay him to rest." would the KGR pick hin up. I do not think that you would think so. B. I do not think so. A. Maybe you think, but.... B. I am telling you how it was. A. But it is not enough that you say this is how it was. It is not logical for it.to have o¢curred as you say it did. ((Pause)) I think that you should find a more logical ansver. B. What more logical answer. There probably were instructions through Personnel, or through whon KOBULOV worked. In March, KOBULOV could have -~ if he were interested -- had ((8's surname)) processed or not; or he could have (2G) them and asked, "What is the trouble: That is all". And what could SHUBNYAXOV, GRIBANOV and FEDOTOV say? oe : They. would not stand there with open mouths. ss Boa ag cogae eT aT Bes aman © - a lee me, he Ee A. If you worked there, you should know GRIBANOV, FEDOTOV and SHUBNYAKOV ‘better. . B. No; they are all educated, they are intelligent people, they have great experience, they are erudite.
104-10210-10028 A. A. Why did not you answer at once, the 27tn of June 1953. « ? Taey are responsible for the internal security of the country: all of these people were confirned hy the CC CPSU; they wre not put there by a fool. Right. ((3's surnane)) too «= pardon the exnression == was not a saall [ry (zhuy sobachiy), but a candidate menber of the CC, a member of the cabinet, a mesber of the counéil of ‘finisters; these are bis: things.. But it was not ((B's surnane)) who was going to work. No, the father, the father; but that, that was sonething. I do not deny that it was sonething, but you know the doors of the KGB are not onen to all; they are quite narrow. I told you how the doors were opened and how I entered there. Well, let's go on; we'll return to the anketa -- when did you get married for the second time. In 1953. When’ In June. Do you remember the date. Yes, the 27th of June. Why did you first answer just 1953; ee Sere SY eerie Because you know this very well, and we have talked about this. You are questioning me like a child.
104-10210-10028 A. -I requested a check on the wife, on her mother and father. Because you do not answer in full, and your answer is not satisfactory. You are questioning me lize a small boy deliberately. ((XG; A and B speak at the same time)) oT I, OT PT a RT It certainly is not deliberate. I am asking the simplest cucstions. You do not even have to thin: about ‘hen, If a man were there, he would answer thea without hesitation. You know that that question already was discussed; but you still are pressing.... In what manner and how did you inform your Chiefs and Personnel that you had married. | : | | ((Pause)) I remember that I requested official leave for three days to get married. I do not remember the details -= whether I spoke about intemiing to get married. J think that I spoke with GORBATENKO, said that I intended to get married to so-and-so, There was one thing I did... What did I do. | I checked her, unofficially ~- because this is not allowed. Across the room there was a fellow, the Deputy Chief of the First Section, named KUDREV, Georgiy Yakovlevich. I told him that Z want to get married, that I wanted to check her, that there may be some incriminating material against her. And what turned up: Absolutely clear =~ according to the First Special Department.
104-10210-10028 . . A. You were sure that she was absolutely clear 2 eee B. Absolutely clear; I received it and destroyed it. Certainly, I must have said that I was preparing to marry; I inforned then officially. I requested three cays to ret narried. . i Then Y remenber that I coupleted an ane ta again, because I had ree- married, Yes, I coupleted an anketa again after I was married. A. Well, waat kind of anketa was it B. Well, the one we were speaking about, the usual anketa, i A, Were we are -- completing this anketa for the third tine. In the beginning, you had conpleted two copies; then, still more. | an Now you were getting married; now how many copies did you complete. B. I do not remember, I do not remember. I know that I completed this ankecta; I did not write an autobiography. And, in this anketa, I indicated that I had been married and gave the name of the first wife. I listed the wife, her mother, her father, her. brother, her sister; a that is all. A. Then, in the new anketa, in answer to the questions about your family status, you answered that you had been married. B. Married. Pn en | | | { | A. And you answered everything that was asked about your wife. B. Yes, yes. + OR ee aL Bed wr de be bathed A. How did you answer the question about the wife's relatives who had i lived, or were living at present, abroad: arene pte
104-10210-10028 . . B. I answered that there was no one who had lived or was living at the present tine ((abroad)); altnouza a distant relative <= that is, the nother's brother -- was in Austrian at the tine; I do not renember his name, A, Well, what did you answer to the qucstion of who anong you and your wife's relatives had been or was at that tine abroad, where they were, when, and who sent then. What was your answer. 'B, Absolutely no one was abroad :.: that time, and no one had been sent anywhere. A. But the question reads, "Who has been or is presently abroad " B. “No one is", “no one is", A. And vho had been abroad. -B. Tnere were... they had been abroad, in France. A. Well, how did you answer this question. 2 B. Well’ the wife told me; I probably wrote, but I did not write who _. , bad sent then. . I wrote that... I do not remember; I must have indicated.... I asked my wife... that they had been in France, when he worked at a metallure ; gical plant in France, A. Well, did you think it was logical when you told me that you yourself -{....0,..-..%, Bad checked on your wife, that an answer had come from the First ee , Special Department. B. A clean one, absolutely. i “a. Could it have been written that "she has been abroad, in France =< see ad
104-10210-10028 exit £ile such and such”.... RB. No; there was absolutely nothing, absolutely nothin: A. No exis file B. I do not know, I co not now if there were exit Files in 13935. A. There were (onit files)) even in 1925, for your information. B. I tell you that it was an absolute? . Lean chect: the checi: cane fron the Archives on the mother, father, wife. A, Well, what do you think as a counterintelligence officer “~~ was it logical that there was no information that they had been abroad No matter wacther or not they did anything bad, account is talen of all people who have been or are abroad; all the infornation is there. B. Tnere was no infornation there, A. There is exit information on all people; there is a card for everyone; all the information is there. If you yourself made the check, you should have obtained this informatior B, I myself made the check, and I myself received these answers. A. Well, why did not you get the information that they had been abroad. ((XG; ‘A and B speak at the sane time)) ((Pause)) fell, what do you think’ What kind of effect would this have on you, when added to what I told you earlier ~~ about you personally, about your father, about your mother, about your grandfather; further, about the narriage to TELEGINA; then, after your marriage — it was at that time = Bogdan ((KOBULOV)) was arrested; after that, it was explained that you had married a
104-10210-10028 person wnose parents we aAlthouchn she was an in ral ant a= had heen in France, What co you thint: Again #-= would not it be lovical for sone of the aanloyees of (GD or the Second Cniel Directorate <= new chiefs aad cone in == to look into your case. They looked through my file; then, asain, my wife's father also was a responsible worter in the Council of Ministers at that tine. You know that many responsible workers of tne Council of ‘Ninisters, and as you said, your father was a bi¢ man == but there were files on many of them; although it did not affect all of them, it nad a big affect Oe. on sone of then, What do you think. Do you think anyone renarked that they should continue to keep such a man as an enployee in the organs, or should say goodbye to hin What is your viewpoint, as a countcrintellicence officer who worked in the American Department of the Second Chief Directorate. First, there was no compromising material on the KOZHEVNIKOVs althouch they had been abroad. Well, if we go further we will find something else There are questions about who among the relatives of your wife, your parents and your relatives have lived in German occupied territory. Right; I did not indicate there that the grandmother en ny mother’s side and her sister had lived there; I did not indicate this. Why‘ Because the anketa asked only about your closest relatives, Whom do they mean by "closest relatives”. -—= Father, mother, brother, sister. + Ma ten Nth ough Re eR a Then, on the wife's side o her father, nother, brother, sister. a I a These are the closest relatives.
104-10210-10028 “ » vee etnies + A. Well, yes; but every ankcta has the question -= do you wish to add SG i - gomething about your relavives. B. But I did not wish to add anythin, A, Furthermore, there is a supplenentary list of relatives with whom you are in contact, with whom your family has contact. For instance, if we say, as a counterintellivence officer... or the Search Directorate or Personnel loos at it this way -= here, ((B's I surnamec)) was born in Nikolayev. t After the war and later, the files on 211 who were born and lived in that territory were reviewed to find out who arong their ((KGB enployces: relatives had lived in occupied territory, although perhaps the employee himself did aot know about this, because many of them ((had no coutacts with such relatives)).... B, Well, all of this is in the special check ((file)); that is right, ‘ absolutely richt. A. I think that even if you did not write that your grandmother had been in occupied territory, they would know about it. B. Right, right. 4 A. Well, if we add to this that, soon after this... well, your misconduct } in the HVD ~~} making use of operational documents, and you fell ill with a venereal disease.... Besides that, soon afterward, you got out of the Komsonol, Explain to me what reason there was for keeping you there. B. I do not know what kind of reason‘! ce gt oe ony Pea ee aa ME i a, Maybe it was because I, as a case officer, was like a bump on a log, an ordinary one who did not shine in any way and who.... A. So much the more so, if he did not shine there -- why keep him: — SECRET e
104-10210-10028 B. But he is not developed without reason. 4 Ll Well, maybe only because; well... why fire such a cuy, fire hin for wnat - Very well, they could have fired me for that misconduct, but thts was the decision of SHURTYAKOV and FEDOTOY. It was not nmecesstry to fire you, but sinpoly to write, "It is not considered sworthwitle to keep ((3's sursane}) in the organs of tne ‘yD." Right, but it depends, you see, upon wiere it comes fron This usually happens if the chief of a section does not Like tho onera- tional worer. Of course, they could get rid of you, but I do not Know why they did not. Are you asking ne for SHUBNYAXOV's or FEDOTOV'’s opinion. . I do not want this; I certainly am not asking you this -—~ perhaps you do not krow this. I simply an saving that, as a counterintelligence officer..., (1G) I do not know why it was so; I simply am telling how it: was. ...You must know all of these sharp angles. Y understand, I understand. Well, you understand, if you worked in the American Departnent; I think you would have been interested if some Soviet citizen had met a foreigner well, maybe he just got a light, maybe he did not do anything wrong. Right, right, well, this ({person)) can be developed for a long time. Absolutely -— perhaps two or three years. Weli, this — as they say -= receives attention.
104-10210-100 3. A. 28 aie aidan eel Well, waat «= did ((5D's surname)) have contact with forci:ners Did ais father or mother have contact with foreirzners I an saying this as an exanple; I an saying the fellowins «= if we have in mind that.... Loo, a man arrives and soes to wort: in the HVD; his mother's oriscin 4s of the nobility; his grandfather died in prison; his father, althou:h he was a Hinister -- you t:now many ilinisters were CC and POLITBYURO menabers and that they were imprisonec at one time.... Oh, yes. (({XG; A and B speak at the sane tine)). God sniled on BERIYA, too, but then they threw him in prison. And BULGANIN. : ...But there is a file on his (({B's father)), too; he hinself ((B)) was married to the daughter of a general who now is in prison; he was _ recounended for work by XOBULOV, who —- along with BERIYA -- was arrestee as a traitor and an enemy of the people; furthermore, at the time, he is married to the daughter of a responsible worker who has lived in Prance there is nothing incriminating in this, but a fact is a fact; he has left the Komsomol because of age; he was arrested for 15 days for ; misuse of operational cocuments, and he has been i11 with a veneral disease -~ is this a good man for counterintelligence work in the Center in Boscow. . Well, explain this to me, from the point of view of a counterintelligencse officer. ‘On, I am not deotding... why should I decide a question about nyself in 1954: | * ey But I can tell you only one detail -— you are forgetting something a 4 little bit: the situation, which always plays a part. 1953 was one thing; 1954 was quite different.
104-10210-10028 ied Stes Be A conplete rehabilitation was ::oin: on. There vas a cozpletely different approach and a different way of looking at many taings; do not discount this. Nothing; so spectacular had hapbened as yet in 1954, No -— how go. There was alrendy a new, a fresh breeze,... oe.) have in mind, if this.... then you have to add the following —= that there was a2 sreat cuteback and release, and the acceptance af Party and Komsonol nembers ((in place of forner employees)). You specifically vere a prine candidate in the catezory of those to whom they would say psood@#byc. ((XG; A and B speak at the sane tie)) But here, they probably too into account... right; I understand... I can say one thing -= about my father's position; second, “th2 fellow has a hicher education, knows a language” ~— in 1953 and 1954, only 25 to 30 percent in the Second Chief Directorate had a hicther education; there were only 10 to 15 percent who had other languaves -= this could have a certain sicnificance, es Just a minute; of course, we have not spoxen about education yet -— because you lixely remember wery well that you have told about your education several times, and you have told different stories. And there is a big question about whether you have had the education you clained.... De oe. (Cand of Reel #4)) ct an