Released under the John F. Kennedy Assassination 
Records Collection Act of 1992 
(44 USC 2107 Note) 
NW 53216 6/17/17
104-10227-10006 ery Se er Ee etetene enn R Ete rem ee Be oe ase , i Roel #1 — 7 , , . wait 12 August 1905 and ‘ . ot 13 Aust 1965 ~~~ ° . ly _ TRATSLATION a , B. Reforo BURG! arrived along with KOZLOV, there was the chief of the Directorate; hin fricnd, ZHIVAGA, Chiof of the Second Directora ((in Kiev)) at that. time, oe A. I now that ‘you ronenberud: that ‘nane very well; we also now hire: Ss an, asking what you. oid with. nUGT for the period of 34 days. whon. you were thore: ~ Oe ae Your activity during this. tine, directly with numer rn. oh, directly with BINGI ° “= . after taltcing with hin, on: “the followin: day.... on" ” . - . ob A, Who was talking; — ‘By KO“LOV, ((B's surnac)), Pos gee tm he PPS A. What apecidurnity did you “taille about. with him: Give me one exnmple. - B, I do not renemher; 1 do not remenber ,' - A. {((Pause)) What did MOLLOY tall: about _ oa. a B. I do not remember; I co not remesabor ~~ ie talked about many things. . _ , a ; 4 They began with how he liked his Stay in. the Soviet Union, how he : . :* i enjoyed the Sovict Union, then about tourist servico. ; — Lo 5 Then, gradually they went over to: it may. be disagreeable, but 8 © at
te : 104-10227-10006 : a <d infessation Nas been received abedt his. bapvoeprer conduct, that is. thouwt his conduct tn “Moscow. A. Poll, what exactly was he told about his condict in ioscow a n, Well yaho wags told that his honosexual contacts were knotn, that tii - a is punishable under Soviet law, by such=-and-such an articte, ctc., rt - } that he is not a diplount, did not have diplomatic immunity and car “be sentenced under Sovict law for the violation. A. Well, what was his answer’to this: B. Well, I do not renenber; I cannot t21l you. RE cnt a na a ream on HOR es ecUN Ue Ie eas 1 . ao. ed Well, he gaid sonething. i ; ; i B. of course, he tas est iehtened, and upset; ‘he did not feel ood; oe po But after, that we: gradually vent over to day.Enes that this could ha. : Lat snocthed over; you underetaad ~- the foundavion was laid whereby , at the .man sald, “Very woll, I agree to help.” : ; “4 ; ee : ren , & 7 | “A, Mow. exactly was this said to-him; how was Lt proposed that he’. | couperate? -  . { — | Bb. Well, Lt was said that the Soviet ‘Union i fighting for peace, and so forth w= soc sort of political side. | A, Yes. ae ‘B. And that there are people in the United States who want to unleash | “a now war «= talk of that nature. ! | . A. And did ‘he believe thts. a LR. Of course, no. Well, I an sinply telling you that the approach tas such.. gett
: :) 104-10227-10006 rn ee ‘ . - ? 8. And edfd you Show Qi photos: : n, Yes, A. And how did ho read to tits. ; B. Well, how -= very unpleasant. 7. aa - a, Was hig-ass seen. - i RB. Well, of course, it ets bare ((courhs) )... = * i ran . AL ( (Pause) ). nell, what clso_ ; : ‘ i omy Well, vo led up to the“ toundation that, “You seo, you have a2 nohle 7 ., Mission; you teach; you have students ‘ students who ara SSoe tatints : and perhaps will do 50 on hus sia, will be (Gtploaats,/ and $0) forth. oa “Dut nany of these studcits could be used... these students: could ‘ — “be used in Antelligence. .. dntellisence,.. they may be taken for . | work, 40 Intel igence, they nay, be sent with var lous assiginents, | -; and so forth. ret _* _ : eee, - 7 “ Bree ae . : “Well, here, lect atk Bayt pot are’ teactiny. dir, . beapliekty co students who An. tie future. gould Abe ‘used tn, soveranont ‘Goria r | Vell, he could teil us aheut "ahd aes igmaent of students ‘and so° fort these kinds of questions, many Little tuings..: t eannot ‘tell voir A. Well, this: was. the flest coavorsatton, the first conve sesation, yes” | B. No, well, ta this convernation, the first conversation, se dotted the i's. | . In the first conversation, we dotted the i's. . He did not arree, in anyfeny when he was told to help Soviet) intellivence. | | / . ile was told «+ "You understand, it is a ica term -= to help : : . Sovict intellifence, of course.” : " I renenber I said to him, “Understand; no — will asi: you that yo: a | ee
104-10227-10006 help us, det uu aay, cae Pe bonis, wad periainss tate Gi sine at ue fisre, or that yon ee 20: tothe Laue stupdd or sohethans silver ty . Ma ez puoniane,. a: Bhd sea: ome. ; : , No, no ene wtll aver ctve von ouen a tash "Wis oe wiLlcnot talierbout tht. “Stuply, there will be sone hind of help fron you, 4£ you Nes Ags : ; “Woll, perhaps you wilt dlsclose, let Us Say, that you have ba yao faculty people wie are wistren sly ontisSovict, aisnilng ¢" the Sovloat : - “Sunton, ond co forth” = in that spirit, ; - a. Alright.- _! Nm _ _ _— ot . - Os . ; a Be ‘Tho’ talk. ‘touched upon tho fact that he: was, yes, supposed to yo to. Italy after ‘Loav ing the Soviet Union; he was suppos vd to sO to [tal> : “In Tealy. he wag Rupposed to visit the RUSTY; he sald... how the | : conversation cane up, {n ‘this school of the Vatlean, : . of courso,  KOZLOY. setzed upon this =~) What *ind: of school is tits Ho 7 how, what, that tt also ts :nown about the ork of the Vattean’: 3 . a, intolligonce, - . ‘ ‘And tho nane, RUSTAUL, ‘already says much. ; 7 ‘told. UB 80% ething or other about the RUSIKUY, ee He was asked to write about the. RUSIKUM, We asked him to write also about... .. he wrote a Hunbex of nancs frac. Yale University, or professors teach ing: courses. on Russ ta. A signed statement wag taken “from fine that day. ‘ AS What did it say? a a 5B. That, "I, BUNGI, then agrce to help the organs of Soviet intelLticer “A.- Well, what else was written tn this statement 3 Bb. Well, T say, it was a very short statenent; but it directly, stated “organs of Soviet intelligence." - . A.. What was written at the end of the statement. card ar vere
Rta A Goes 104-10227-10006 AY R.. ., Well, it is we who rave it to hin, we did net talk with hina about a ° ((Pause)) Mere wat no pseudonym; there was noms there was ns But he says there was, ‘Te simply was that Inter a code word was worked out whith him, fro: to contact him, “ag What pseudonym was he piven (Csaispers)). What psoudonyt = _ Now... “You said that thero was none. He says that you spoke with hia about it. 7 : , _*s Hy le oP ets Yes, @ password was decided upon, He said that ho was given a “pseitdonym that he agreed. | - - -((Pause)) I do. not reneiber, I do not remember, ho took the etatenunt.” ” I took the statonént, s0:40, Riso. me Nell, who oe you or AOZLOY. You understand, tt is not possibile to draw such a line, It is possible, Both.- . : ; :
104-10227-10006 A, 2B. A, YY do not romember, “XODOKOVSKIY. 7 Wirt, ‘ a Both of un took the sUttemunt; beth conducted the tobi, , Well, go on. \ i On the following day.... \ Yow-did he #ign the statencnt. ‘What was written at the cnd of the statement, Both of you took it frou him, hota of you. spoke to hin =< Fair ust know, | ((Long pause)) Let us take a brea, CREAR) ge cee * wl - , - ~ a ee Yes. ed ((Pause)) Well, a trood fellow, a good name. (xG) And what did you call tint DEED, you said. Vindiair... Vindtuir, Viadinir Stepanovich. It seens it was Stepanovich. ‘The nane Of the worker whe net in KLev was MIODOKOVSZIY fms
104-10227-10006 oe ee | OA (Cin ny lieh)) Well, cive. C(tuase)) Well, what tere we Ling te do s= contisns talker abou. . BUHGL,. or are you steeply coitus to say that yee, me = case offlety. Aid aot tere nare in tila ones, bet aleply perticipated “61 aon aint No, I participated, Jo partictpated; [ never was an asent.. 5 i A. You know, vou know the difference betwoen the varicus agents; that ; souc, like you, take part. 3 You see es you can flvo agither coufirmatlon nor srool of your | . — information’ that you handled the case, that you wre the cage off ie | responsible fur this cage. “ a It does not matter how much wo talk about it, - : _  * “You sce how you. swam about, . 2B. No. - What do you mean -- no. * : With ‘this anster of no, you bury yourself even deeper. | . -¥ de not know how you are goin to set out, a | ((Pause)) Well; very well -= how many tines did you ncet BURGI in i 4 B, Every day that he was there. - : A. Every day that he was there. : r ‘Where were you toxether with BURGI, in Kiev: | 3. Then, at the very moment of tho recruitment, of our recruitment discussion, when we touched on this unpleasant... . A. Well, let us differentiate. : Ss thy do you nention the recruitment and tho recruiternt talk. ; wei
104-10227-10006 —— 3 #8 menuse £t du thy pare -totar Kh. fell, it ds the same thing, We have already established tiat a coneluston is written abot tie recruitment, but not'on the recrubtnont dincussion. And second, you. bean the recrudtment discusston, then you umie te recruitment. : recruited. ~ Is this so. . i. ! | ; _ oo. { Re Tie’ recruituent discussion. tu the recruttmcnt itselL£. | oS a Sa beg _ ‘ . i "A, 3 ...A recruitnent discusston does not mean that the person has. bes: { ; “8 ae re wg eS 7 i a ; A.” Possibly ,“you recruit Hin, and possibly you do not recruit hin. ‘B. -He can say "yes"-or “fro to hei." 5 Then, probably the recruitacnt discussion is conducted: first, and - "then tho recruitaent follows; -or'docs this all-;o tocether: ~ oe B, It goes toether, of course. Mane ee eth een eres on A. 12 the person agrees, then evergthine soes smoothly. . mh, If everything goes suootily, _A&. Then Iet us start fron here. Fro: the first meeting: in Kftev, when you met in the safe-nouse. on Kreshchatik, you net DURGI every day. several hours; then DBUNGI went to the hotel, and you yourself live: feaSb Kennard in this hotel, one floor above. Now the following day -« briefly, what did you do with BURGI, in tye
104-10227-10006 The thine g, for foreteuetn, -in6 penve of SHEVCIEN NO. te dose ey 19-220 wloceters. fron Riew; fovedoners are not allow: to re cbt. We took @ Zin es XOZEOY , (ints gurnang)), PETRONIIO and QURGT: 28 wunk to Raaev, lane, I rerenler now the autozorile mot stuck when approaching Aasov: olvicusly there "had bec rata the day before; there _ Sued cla, ‘and the automobile was stueh up to: the’ windows. . . . We were. pulled out. : : tre showed lua the grave of SILVCNENKO, on a hill over outing the . ~: This took several hours, nore “than half a day. - *e ° h. You did ‘not try. to push think into Ele paene. , ai B. No, 211 of the followin: days, the intention yas to stiooth over the | | unplcasant discussions. whieh wore the basis, with ‘the coaproritsin:: + nature, for thé recruitment tals, to suooth it over absolutely ‘and, | not touch ‘on this question at all, , ao | You did not threaten hin with anything; you did not frighten hin: 9) 9 5° . I B. . No, with nothing, with nothing. * | | ° In the first conversation, wo sonched upon, we pete about, about | * | his tendencies,... . | , wo . ; B, And, other than that, netring, notaing, not one was mentioned any wi A. Well, very well, ——, ~~ —--Bp--Well “besides this, dn these Wars we ato twice at this apartacnt. , 7 : : Both after and before wate, we continued to talk about Yale ; * University, about the RUSIAUN, =
104-10227-10006 “ee ; 1 i 2 i i 2 ' é if there were, iinet Lanta; » Therefore, . InjNew Yor’. oe ete My wens Dat Le te tee te. ce kt S2n% tak® @@ weulta. Fe ff 2taer, %4 cetail the teaching stats of tae RUSIKU, periaps tha people wig are wtidyiag tin this Benont,. ((Penze)) Now mao Tohave Corcotten’ to tell vou this detail a- f just nov renonbered -- thir vee before Ilett toscou; we wore fait. Firnt Department, with GUS! O¥.; we asked (PEXLISOY where to destvinst the nee BANE place, We. agreed on a public Library. F “And there thoy, would dectde with him on the ‘planed for later Bes roth ((Pause)) And FERLISOV asked that arrangencnts be. ‘made for. more pai one nce ting _placoe, for, several. of then.-~. that ig, eontrol. meet lars: you understand == they, did not {0° to the first one; but they wanted to sce “Af he -would’ “show up or. not and. if there. vas. sure redlica erhaps he had bold about it, and! they i a want to catch us? or in August, the first ((contact))... only after. the second or third. Yos. How do you know that’. Vell, that was when wo spotec with KOZLOV... oh... with GUS'KXOV when we were with FEXLISOY about shere to designate the neetine place. Well, what -= did FRXLISOV hinsclf say where, or was someone cise there, also: I do not renenber how it was, but we established that the meetin: place was to be at a public Llil:ravy; this was decided in FEXLISOYV' office, Wher. was this. the céitact was to be made abroad, later -- in September,
104-10227-10006 a ean, can ee Es ' = cob, ha Beau Vane bie Bete beg ot * 7 : Yat -~ wo would he conduc tim: the recrubtuent CQtscussfon, but i where to set the necting place? - ; A. YOu havo not killed the dick, and you are already washing, tt.) ‘ B. Well, you prepare to designate the meotinyg place; because they will / hold the mocting, not the Sccond Directorato, right. ; A. How can ‘one ‘prepare everything, it tho man is not yet recruited. | How aro. 1 You going to work, jf: out: ge oF ah — p ; i By: Lool:.,.. A. He will say that'a public Linvary. ‘is not. suttable, for. this or. tat. reason; ho knows New York Lite his five fingers, a and ho wlll say, . “I cannot co there." rf Ls 4. ; 5 : . " ; a understand, I understand... 0007 ca, Bamberg + gi : (XG; Avand B Speak at the sane tine)) > Until tho duck is killed you cannot’ roast it. BL A. Well, there was speculation, and it was daccided that it would be in> a public library. . > Oe a Well, if he said, “I cannot co in a public Library” and he nas a reason for this..... Then wo would agree with hin; then.... Neeeer a, .cbstl ie FPregir carte settee ge pb paste cattle coecante ee
104-10227-10006 te ay tit BOR eee acta 8A 6 lie hee tt eR RN APL LN oO EE a 9A ts serena wW i ee Put everyens already laos, “Wott, then he would be assert where ho would thinks tt beteer (Chg meet) ), we would come Co an a crocnent with im somehow: we woul * tell hin, “Very well; very well... flow could you aa ho RQ apvecnons wh th tdna. You could | uot Invredtritely. trust hin and vo for a meeting wheres cnc Baye Just “a minuto; Hsten’ to Noes Af tt turned out that ne* wouLd | not ; ayree... very well, then. Vira place do you eurcest | me, : "Very wll, we will thick nbutit tt. we ‘Everyone knows this. “Porhaps wo would better ret in touch “with FERLISOV with Noscox: and say that this ts the way the cituatton is." ((Pause)) 1 want to now — “tron” where did you oar that tae neet ing we get fora _ptblte Library. Because you could fot talk: aout oheliss moctine, until the man: Aneto recruited, ' : ’ ‘We ‘sion't to Kiev, with ‘tas. idea’ that, ur everything turned out Pai + successfully and he. ‘aureed to cooperate,’ it would be set that the weeting would take place dn a public library. Well, let us..fay, he rejects this’ plan,the library; then what. . Then find out what he provoses, and then, of course, contact Mosca. a Rng: You ‘understand that not one Soviet intelligence ((orzans)) woul, aitrea to this -= that aman who has just been recruited propose that the necting he pols sanuowheres; they never would agree. with the: Vell, you arc ;oing dccn into theory. T’an tellin’ you....
104-10227-10006 a > f(y “~ : A, Toa not taliing About any theory; [ani in tha very practice. Gb, Wel 1, that Is tho way, Lt says tn rrackicg :O : A, How ara you colar to fo out to neet the man wiom you have jude recruited --= tomorrow he wilt arrive and advice the Fr. : Be Well, that ide why not nly one necting, but” three control (Cieetine : are held. * 4 5 aa Be “ALL of ‘thom at tire Libr ary, all of then at the lbs ary; ant on . a difforont days) at Intervals of time ~ A, Well, ((42£))- he says: ho eannot (co) ) in ‘tho. brary; eo L. ay” Well, ifho cannot, then we wlth reach cach pither. by phone... and. =~ £2 then arrange for Bone th Ln else. ; ! ‘Woll, I insist-that..., - - e “Tacre were absolutely. no other alternatives, | ! : A, ...80n0 other alternatives must have’ been worted out..., i : i ; — i - B. There wore ro othor alternatives. i A. .,.You had not recruited hin yet, : : : i R, The alternative was in the event of an affinaative res sult 5 aetiplos : of tho case, decide, with hin on a public library. . i A, Besides that, what was with FEXLISOV: : Did he have only one job «= to five you addresses. Did he have no other workers
104-10227-10006 8, The: dincusston was with P.cUuLrsoy, A . . ((Pause)) Muright, - The work tn Kiev was completed; iat next. When did BUNGE wave the Sovict Unien and where did he jo. -f, He loft abroad damediately ives ctev, it seen. A, Se did not return to ‘oscow B. lo, no, “Well, what WiUBUAL chrouagtances were there in hig. departure “tven nd Yiev: B, 1 do not xenenber, 5 “A, Welly you wore the case. officer. a a : , . i : BR. Well, 1 do‘not remeber. | - Al rere ier | : A, ((Pauso)) - Please «= what wis there: ‘p, I said that I donot voucher, | - ‘ | ~ } ; : : ". e | A, ‘What was tinusual about his docuacnts. B. I do not remember; I co not renember. | ((Pause)) [ut you still continue to insist that you vere his cage officer. ; i . . . : B, I an not inststin:; I an sayin: so. Z A. You are saying, but you do not insist? “4 r oo, . ’ Tl
104-10227-10006 mi, Poa ged cyou wnatocne booms that Do tnertee- a ; You, € fnaint that Tonandled the develoment, — _ ot - AS Too bad, ((ause))  Serhaps you parttelioated in the development; yor Stabs handle it, and you could not ave handled Lt, . You should cry, not suile, - .. ((Pauee)) Go on es what happcacd in Now York: Waat clso happened with LURGT, a os, Tie ono thin: T know further in that, at the first nectin:: tay : . - eheeked fils; he netunlly % ue’, a ; ~ boo os Thay approacined hin on. the bocond.or tiird ((mecting)) << Toca not ope tos” know -e< but not-at the. Tlress, at Further, they met india sevessl theses and they contluued te wot lt up bo, up to, up Co, up to the events in thingay in Canoes. | * £2” Te ee a bes meas on acne foe , put you cee, the thas. eat thece ts sthll oa tend: workers of the First oaled iifvectorate, the eaployoes, the eiploy of “the Reeldency.... trey try In thetxe discusstons, in the!s acene nectings... they condne:t political discussions and so forth ivory “tine. va te oT. # 4 Taey want a sian to loot: nt all events ron ‘the Conunts ts’ standin ; oo “throuch the eyes of n Sov Lot Counun iat. vat ag te a oo oT A, Well, it tg a bad agsissnuont to cultivate a professor of Ressian literature... Ce : . : Bb. It is not.a p-oper tas; I do not aeree With it. : RR. I do not azree with it; A -parson is recruited on compronising : antorinl; a fan ieve avs ed... tm... so that... on conpronising . natertal. a Tuey try to convert they into a. Sovict citizen; that is, into a - Communist. . an
104-10227-10006 oo ee fe Piven vith those vtlews that tte ((ntecaded} He lives dn aserton,: hac, the vlest: of Macrigan soghdty, A, Alricht; let us stop on, bits. iow co you know that he cane ror the! first Meeting, that tucye oo; ether meotines up to the events tv Tungry. -, Froa where did you know this n, “Well, fron the First jicpartnent, i A. Well, how? --— A ‘In chat way. j ae Well, wo. ‘stnply were titevestod.) - . ; \ ; “Fron thon. « Well, we wore interested In it’ through the same FESLISOV. Well, how wan this, practically: ‘I do not reacaber how Lt wae” practically. ; ((Pause)) . What =~ is these such a procedure to report to people No, no; {t vas siaply.., they ‘in very rare cases tal.;, it was simply thus... I do not inaw. . GUS'KOY had’ fairly sood relatléns with FEKLISOY. I do not know, FEILISOV wanted to. Lapsove contact with-the Seventh. Nepartment, because they necded avonts, Well, in vencval, they -are roquired not to talk, and they must not. A. Whon did you send then Alt of the materials? 3B. Well, I returned fron Niev... etree tea eae a eB,
104-10227-10006 - Cc |. So Cc oo Ll tiink, within two or turee days; ne. after five: days ee bona : ‘Kiev sent some rcdaintng natecial; there was the. sucve tltance:, 7 A, Gurvedllanco did net mive any things zm, Wo; nevertheless, so au not to leave any materfals there... .. A. Wrat avards and connencations did you receive for this reeruitiont - : you, KOZLOV and the others. LL fy ordor of SEROV, KO“LOY ‘and 1 vero given a noath's pay and a connendation.. oy are ee er ee ; 6 , 4 A. Whon was this. — by  B. At the beginning of July, 0 . oo a2 i, PETRENKO received a co.ucndation ind half a nenth's pay; RASTYEAYTE. 4 a councndatton.”.. , . . * ~ be _ Mny was. it necessary ¢ Ve-TASTYUAYTE a coancndation. . ih. go a ee oo "ka Be ; “it Well, wo were laushing. . MOZLOV insisted.) A. She was just there, ‘just Lie you. Sie probably yorked tore than youl did.: ‘she inows more about hin and this operation than you do. RASTYKAYTE. ((Pause)). one What kind of procedure is3 that. What would -have hapnencd -~ here, you would receive thanks a comendation and then he: would 0 back and report... and you had not done any work, aftor nll. Why the comncndation. B. Well, that is the way it was. It was the first vecrultuent in the Seventh Tourists Departnent.
104-10227-10006 a N rhe F i ‘ a a fhe ‘ a bbe A. Ee ety mnitnealitan ee cee + 1 Sema rena 4 cea wd own ar 2 Bs A. Pat ft still had net yfeldsd any results, you had tacen part in tie éase: | “Of course, I did not *,. ale made a conplete Meo arread,; wien in the Sevbor Union, but as sodn as he had «one said, "“roodbye", ‘ There were many such cases, many such cases. Vell, anyway, IT want to find out how did you now how tho mectin: s Were held in New York, and ‘particularly in a-((in English)) Lipeasy . Frou the First Departucnt, ‘fron the First. Department... 0°.” ’ Fron: whom. “From FEXLISOV, Sika biel tas wet ke Well, did you yoursel’ co ‘over and ask hin, ask him how thincs + . Going and “how are you wor'tin: with, BURST.” ((bid you tell FEKLISG2)) ‘that soil perc how things were roing; YZLOV , of course, was interested. It simply was interesting, Well, what: 7 . i oe . You all came, the whole scction, and... fog Do not ((tallk)) that way, do not ((talk)) that way... vdport on how they ‘now were operating with - No, there was no such full repert. “go over slone; T went. with GUS! ov. to fine out -
oe a | 104-10227-10006 tye GHo aot remedbor, Go da nent nordahery Whatces were yeu not Give “. f do mot romenber, : _ Don ig, es Well, we WLI teStisl gee == thes RG caso te closed: And yoo, : penttion ‘of the “FART. eh, bee thaw PUR Gt, dtd not wort, amt gon . . i not th the posit ian thet vou dee trying to sell yourself as Tear 7 in -= the facts cence oLy Co ontradtet: this. az Foes Mok orem ant to tort the truck about how tt -happenee. And. tha. saae thins gas toe tae rest of At -- ‘90 percent oF. vant: “5 -." mjpponea aud of how tr oeiutys ny ‘you: do not want’ to B1y oF “you do ae “not -know, foi. ‘the Wr tn ti at the caso “unthE 130 GI! 8 de pavtaes, You do not know even thre tinplest. thing -- ‘from shire, you mot fie information about | waat Aappeiied in. Now York. D, Frou the First Departicnt.:. © r do not know. wane ne outa! ‘ov “ouha not: do: sl that ‘As. yout t optn tos but, =o. that ne ‘Spore sou | cs “~ ‘that’ is. another _ tne: a a a ma oe Ne De not ain honscnse. “es oo, : age Ta Te ane You. once mentioned in your tat. ‘ _. when you wore work {ug in the’ ty: what wore the ‘work ini hours : . | ; | | : As. a case officer, how cid the eaptoyeos work in ‘tho ‘Second Cater | Dircetorate and the XG2 7 B. From 10;.. 10:30. it soous to. Ut ((atdnight)) with a break; there wn a a three-hour “break” froa 5 to 3 (Cin the evening). A, From 10, or fron Wi30, 0 ne | % 2 Oe I 8 Nate kOe CANNY 8 che ITM f ol ERE Serhan POA soe
104-10227- 5? ae 74008 A, Bhat wore the work igs Neurs thon, it, veryone worked untat for Gwe. I do not resenbor now, o... They. started: to word until 6, nut there’ wag an patent to conduc t work with tie qconts curin. ) = gvening hours. A, From what. hour until 6 © By From mine’ eteloeks Tee ges aoe ; Sa. Proa:nine . ‘evel An the -morakng to ‘pte an the: evening; tow, Lone | - the Tunet “broak", . . . oe | : B. “tho tuned “break. fron’ ono B'elock. +. ; A. And oti whon. | | ne until 2. : ‘AL Where did you usually cats” B. Oh... A. Woll, please =. you iknow the restaurants. ay B. Meaty I ate there, vt the GD, in the dininc roon, downstairs, on. the eighth floor fn Hbulldine #72, and sor.etines io tac suamer .° home fa the: car. Well, it is hard to sy... sometimes I went with the fellows. . A. iow many restaurants are there in the old Building, #2-
104-10227-10006 . ae = es Sm Rae Sos Hew, Fowitl! tell yer an an tie lower level, thare ta One. “itn then, there. id oie in athe bass. tes nt. —_ that nice: two, One on the eadchth. fron we that makes thre, : -And tle one pie gen nas "ws tour. A. \horo is the est one ti. om too etgnt floor, | AS fest /B, -Thon,: you 10 down to: tho “second: floor, atthe third sitrance ote “second floor, Thore. is a Largo ‘dining room on. ‘the ekald floor. oS A, Mant kind of ‘acdiming room ts’ that! 9 B. It Is a large dining rooa. = “Well, then, between tae frat And second floors: : | No, this 4s on the first floor, AL OK3. on the first floor, there is a large dining room. : - B. And the one. on the: ekehtn tioor iGo is largo. . Then, thero ts ((one m9) ‘tho. baséacnt -— that. is inside, . iistde i. _ the courtyard... A. Go on, Li, On ‘the second floor, thore wacre you 30 ‘down to the first floor, Hn ° — ‘Little turther down the corr idor on the rignt sido is the dining room for ronevals . w= well, I began eating ‘tnere only tn 1962 . oe 5° + A. And you went to the rést of thom. all of the time: 7 . ay ;
104-10227-10006 ilow many dialing Foon eis hove: in the new, building, a Well, perhapt you s : No, . ,° How many Lunen countert are there th the old building , . How anny: lunch counters are ‘there in, the. new’ building. oe as . I do not ‘kriow,: 7 - , a oo io. I ugod te 0 ‘Arena ta burn... to anack shaepa. cs. Ly, a! “reeting an agent...) Loam taltktnye about Cres the time -y-ou started wortsint. “On the eighth ‘floor, Jha on the ftrst floor, . Iwas on the basement only once or twice or three tings <<. it te nes 0 00d there. | : - ; “I -do not ‘know; Sg never one: ate atone of thon » not once: 2 *, ; “otk topped by. there once: - : + Everyone of the’ dinini: room that I ‘mentioned has a lunch counter, | (How many dining-rooms are. there in Building #12: ee wee “ a” 1 ‘only know about the d letetic one, “the. dietetic. Since when did they start, calling it “dietetic”, XY do not know: YT also never ate there, because it was a dietctic . dining room. You never ate there onc: Not once. a win
104-10227-10006 _—_. o Be Woll, ‘because you eal shere you work, or in tow wo A. (XG) in. Butdd ing ar, in order to run over there, “BR, dust to eat there. No. , Look, you. try to fo out to cat with soe of your om fellows, fron the department, the suction. 0 0 6 ha a BOR NDR RUE A ae cite rie ue 1 A. ...¥ou wort: to the Party Conutttec,, the, Konsdnol Comittee; you rent” a - to eats. a, a : r a oe a B.. No, not onco, “A, You did not go there once.” ee A. “Well, what other dinkns; roons are there... se tne Sad » ile, bara z Py i ie ~ 2 rere Scere en Ad RN RE Rhye ube lene se mgeAA quis evn: * i - B. “1 do not know, A. Restaurants? os ra We used to sometimes. ruin over quickly to the place across fron the - GASTRONOM, : You can. get sonething; to drink; there isa place where you starid. up. oO SEE ne rent den © ge enema tN i You could get. sandwiches, coftee; particularly ‘in the sumner. oa "oft takes only ten minutes. . ~ : .. A. Apparently, they let you po there. frequently... You could go there freely. , Well, you do not know how many lunch counters and dining roons ther > are in the old buildin, or in tue new building, in Building #22...
104-10227-10006 a cL len nh oF Nagied. then for youl. cin the old building. ‘AS But not correctly ~~ there 1g one .on the eteatn; there hacone lar Bite. basexent; there fs a Wining room for ‘penerals.... B. But. which cone. ts. not there. . a : oo, ne A, You ‘should know better ((tham 1)).. ae - ot ; st B. onaned four of them for you <= there are four of them... wo AS Since whon vere. there four dining rooms: . von R. ‘Ieannot tell you: oA, How. can one. believe a: may ‘vhio vor'red ‘thore for | 1 yoars and vous no know whore this! restaucunt in the now budding, 18, and . how ¢ sang: ther + are. _ T never once ate in tic new buildtng; I cannot tell you: - JA. Well, did you ever talc the clevator up. in the new building. 9: 5° ~ Bea also ‘did not go ‘on. “the elevator; we ‘went _ there via the acventh ares there. ts also a passageway on. the | ‘fourth floor .. tages? ee nn al ar | “ a A, What --'did they not ict you into the new building. — aon ' RB. Why. not: -_ a When they checked our pASsCs,, they let us in, - Rs, - Later, they adnitted us without checking passes. j A, What do you nean «= they eid not check passes later. — BR, At the passarceway .
104-10227-10006 ‘A.s You were. there one tin. on -Che'stst Day. “¥e Maen lectures were piven, ta the vnarty education system, few cr! mm 1 do not rénember,... uoula pry, Chelist Day.» No, tomy thinking, onty one thao, Ono. time, to: ny think tne, ia How..often. did: your. wife. po: ‘T. remomber S10 also. vhs ‘there only once or twice. 7. “During the wiole tiae you! wer: opt you ca to the Clab feednen iby. ll, now nminnay times didi vou cg tiere tn LY years. al Well, what kind of corcuantes ute you attend there, ~Givo mo.one example, © Which Chekist Days were you thse All of then or not. 9: “ok ‘i uarried In the whole ‘tine, yes. When did you procers ner pass I do not renciaber; to ny thie: ing I even did not process Club ot for her, How did she co there, then
104-10227-10006 As “Why are you miving tits honserse: them in, “Do. not 'telt mo SIPEN' KOV., (Quite paused). BEERS pot the wives Core thor. Y pad PASS You could not co fn whehott. ¢ Well, without © pass, , 1 an not telling you nonsense; Ioan telling you hor it ras io tas - Secretary: of the: Party ocan ts cations SHPEN*. ON ht thieal aid boat: Mow is it that you do not-even ¢ swow. the working hey Lrs of ‘the “Cépause)) You aro, hot riehe “whoout the working hows and. (Pause) How. ean one, explatn that you: ‘do not know ‘changed! thom. Sint worked thexo. for Lt yorys 1 eid Joo et ne. a te tae ~ and tn: lator. yoars, until | days unehy 5. For, whom was the seven-nour cay introduced. . You neet ‘thea at nirht, "employees in tho centeal Apparatus ‘of tho. AyD: and mes RGD ee ‘That is not- vicht, “von there’ and you do. ‘not: know, the wortctis hours 8; with, the-introductian of the seven-nen? It vas another thin, taat w: wore required to meet the agents tn th: ovenings, I ar asking you about ‘the workiny day. And ‘that about the arcats, I do not dispute, a and in njtine, and evenings... ‘ Ca Airs
104-10227-10006 sy the dater penne, 28 Horie fio a) anti. on gaturdays F[80y -unthl 3, B, “at was ‘that way’ before mo. -- tell you ‘that. we beran, at 10 or 10:2 20° ‘upbe ize waen. did: thoy tart work Lae fran 10, 10:20; 1 beizan ‘working in. Haven 19533; kt'wis that way thom: 0. 7) For your -tngorriatton ma the ‘ode - What. wore the work sn hours: in, . Tagy. | bogan work: an. “Howe Vater; at. 10 -- “and, they ‘ttmtahed an Hour later. “well ‘then - on ‘how:. : ola _ _ , eee “When they introduced the new aya .¥ou see, you are confusing... _ fr Ghon a= “En-inter yarn” me foprontaately... Pode not rencaber, exactly... froa 196 ee he do not remembor; I ho Rol venoaher, mo a re central apparatus of the MVD) tho 6", thie GB nover ‘atartod ate 10 or 10: 30; there never was gucii a aot ia ‘wept way. you do not Knott ‘tint. 1 do not: know, | Masiovatiaya Oblast (send) ‘when ‘we: “began “working at EF “they he | working hours, they began at kO anc — “ ((they worked)). until G, MQ ome until 7, one ‘hour later, Well, did you work from 9: to 9.. In Yater years -- now they work until 6. Ro wan Bhd shared he
104- ae L alaial Pee SORVALL 8 . : B. -Tona not contusing anything. From 10 until 7; and then £t ne Bene Later thd. e. very wos what was: the aét-up in 1953. Re. 1935), 1956, 195772950, ©1959" 2 nan ant a notennow. - rahe ee ee a Yeah, that is y apparent! You do not even Tha working. éay was eight hours; them it bocnue seven hows, | Mow 80. , i a Well, what wag the work ban day tor Mogkovskaya ObLast prior ta tie aye new got up: well, seca 1 i nt know; 1 Ein ene’ I cannot say; I donot fnew. en Pee oe ee tinue to state that you worked thers, 1 worked fro 1958" unt it sanuary 1908. know at yhat “thine you went to vor oF when you 2e.” Oh, wo loft..:. low do you oxpinin that you. do not. even know what the working “204! wore, what the aours are in the KGB: I told you. It is. not risht._
104-10227-10006 rn: 3. Mant dry you MON w= tt tis nok iene 4 Lo wort ted) there andl you: that ft Je not riche, You. sit ierey bat r eae buntiLing,. Baddtla :_" B, tell, soe It av you winh, AL 1 worked ‘there also.” & know how they worked ‘ana: ‘het Loni: thoy worked, a ‘even renenbor exactly right ta.) to now. when . ‘the forking: nour change wow to. waat, how,. wiyy” anid vy whom . ‘mo changed the wort’ hours on staat basis: we - ; te , i Ft 5 i = i “F - oO — ‘((Pauce)) “Wino introduced | the ‘Chorver. day: : . 3 i $ | i ve, ee ee | It wos the decision of the 'Governucnt, - - Ee : e : a . acces il [ i | t The Council fo winistors. ’ ‘Mell, all of the euployoos beyaa.to say, "Well, thank.” - Tt wags the, decision of the, Council of: Ministors, tho decis'ton of tac Chairman. of. Counc 8 of Uintaters, - ho. Woll, I was not at the nee ting of the Council of Ministers. ‘ OX, thanks. 7 The game thing oes: tox: your vor: -- you wore not in tho organs of . the KGB.. a . . | ‘ : You could find only one anster == "y was not at the oot ins of the: ae
104-10227-10006 a Qe ae . . : _ 8 . Councll of Hindatous. - i, Youoask me m= "Who": Tony ee yy decision of ta. Cowl ibo of inistews “Tho . ew we; "ny dec triton of the Council oC jlintsters," A, All of the enployces: Brill say thauks to this nan, It is interest ing wm A man who ‘worked therc loos net even enon ‘the: working | hours: Arey, at what cll ene people worked; he docs - not know. ‘the: Doputy Ainietey, and docks not. know. tho. Psu secretary was Doputy Minister.” - What do you way to. that, (pause) jell, vhat = ave you still oing, to cont tnuc te tell ve; & “fairy tale.. > . os 1-1 tw not telifng you fairy: tales, fee Kbout the waite calt: - B.  Notthor waite hor: jrray. A. “Do, you “renenbér. YOUR: getndnothor telling you tho tale, about” tho” white calf oo a _ There, was. ned ther a heginnting nor an ending. Do. you | know this Russ ian tale. Oo po 0 a Ps ee or Be bi have heard it.) = ar 0 Hog oo A. oll, it ts tho saiac thing with you. . ((Pause)). You already have beco:e so aceustoned to ly ing and not tel Lin: _ thie. truth,. that it has Deena a habtt ‘and makes no difference to you. I considered you to be snarter. ((Pause)) 1 know ‘that you can throw sharp words at mo.
104-10227-10006 Pan ste A, ’ Wha. can T- say ition you cent 7 “doopor en. 9” “They. begin, they bergin, vat 10; “they begin at 1000: they finish, on “CePauss)) ‘when you conptoted the! Institute of International Relat B. for At ae there AS nor tins ‘élno to do, You ask now wat, tho wotkttg tebe ooo the KGB’ . - Waat elso can I say. Want! _ Tn Intor years, frou fo 3: he fore tint, they worked until Of cand; : ay “hn the. beginning, een i beran Work ihr we worked until An, wita 2: three-hour nbmeale” i “mat whiten, you have tora nie “ts. utter nonsense and Lies. Ana you do not duiow, Oren . ae qotte ag e Hl gee a “at you had, over been there, you vould nover . have sald such, Horses >. y purposoly naked about. Hlowkovetinya oblast, and you. got uy ‘gttL. | hour lator: what kind of an. )-ennbite Cul: aid you receive? ce “On ‘Antehing. | —_ core ne © eS received the. emblen considerably later, ‘considerably later; hen = ‘y returned: ‘eee ‘tn 1957 —— f. recelved it, that, Ieind of an emblem was st pray—colored; “thore » was the seal of the | It was rhoubic-shaped,. : Soviet Union ~- bronsc; A nd on it a ee not “GINO, " but "I ‘three Letters: Institute ot Intern at tonal Relations. - When did they begin civing these enblems? - Mhon I finished the Institute, they were not being Given. . They began to five. thes Tater, ta 1957, 1958; a ee
104-10227-10006 oe : se cee Nove: preeiselys n.l057 or 1Oe0 ee Pas atin toe tetL you exactly; maybe in ke". A conember tant. went chia ted Low cuphoyec of the Sov: | Departaent, BELAY to ret ite: NA What is the di tferense ba trecn. the. eablen Ot a- person tho 179 Thetis: finished the University awd that, of ‘one who has finished tie Inet Well'y, shat, is the: ‘afrFovenee. There is a. difference in the color, § and on. it siLL he printed one ; and tho, cotor. of coutso, ."IGU" will ‘be -on it; but I-have in-mind nes ‘Tio color 16 different, ut. rv do not renonbor what” cote its And (the Institute) ) euibiben Ls ray, “Like a “diplomat: s ‘the color ‘of a MOUSE . When “did you complete the Institute. AL 1950; ‘and did you reed ive an eablen). -! 1 received: £t Ain: 195 on when, they ; gave ne, the enblen, they put moo. starp in the. aiplosa, dndvent ating tliat fan cablon | has been given, There nust be. Se , (ie). : Again == how do von csxpinin that you are not telling the truth. | I do not know what you have in nind that fs not the truth.
104-10227-10006 Le in operation. » “nave the original doemonts’ of ‘thea: graduation from, an Anstitut tor: ~Vnoa Do owan wool ar ihe a. _ Graduated Frou Sov tet Institutions of inher Reucation: Sines. 7 _pracuated may receive tho cuhleas at. the nearest. stuilar Anatttut wae _ in ‘which tho. uniform ncadenite enblem has. been Antrodiiced, on - “the | dn operation. "of. higher education. Cat ston, cortifleates). They were, they wre, Tosxethed een td you vee ives ae cebdenm 7: Pe cn ee em a crn ho : Raeree 26) ayer beent, in, Be eat Peg JNRT, yor, “tac Béogecdure for Recedv das MARE! Mbleaus for rersovs Were re January -1961,... Since ! Sanitary 1932, a uniforu rcadoirke ealed i ine - been Antroduced, for all araductes tno LOIt of Sovict ins bitutioue of aigher. education, a . "They, are given with ‘the diptoun, in corenonies, to rraduates ott. ‘the institutions. of. Wisner, cgueat ton by ‘the. rectors: ls Bpon thet: -Anatfuctions, by otiier ‘Yonrades. -DPéegons. who. yraduated from: insti tutions. of: higher | eitication hovos 1961 receive the neadente einen in those institutions fy ron ede’ .tliey at one fino gra duiated, OF. in a: cinilar acadenie Institution, fe the institution ‘of htenee educa \ttion fron. viich they graduated: ist inc Pers sons who live fax away frou the: Tastitutitons.; from. whet : bey basis. of. a declaration itiiont instructions fron ‘tne institute now é ort all ‘eases, ficadcinic: cables are 4esued. only” to elticens who "No other documents of any ! <ind may ibe. accepted as the basis. for issuance “of the cuabLems <" a Tho - Aeadeuy of: Sciences of the irainian ssn, 1963. I received it: when IL was working in the Seventh: Departnent; I wont with a follow worker, with DuLIXOV; in 1953, approxinately. They still wore not in -cristenee.
104-10227-10006 n pan chime tan ae teeteeeyate dene nit Ae ee teenth nser theme nen Attn Poem rere ee a 2.88 : = ga * DB.  L'keceived it. carlier, ‘not. in 196%} no, no, 16; o - How’ could you have veceived it carlior. ‘Because I nirendy SAG: work ins an the First. Departnent in qty a ‘received it. when it Wines wortstng FU “tho: Seventh. Departivent sorta ee dlew eat wel ocntinius falidin ; I ‘tell yot-how 4t fe, and you telt me it was not.: ‘Tt ts a statute, “Well, so what ‘mat it Js a statute. Tlicro’ ft is said when they vere: titroduced, ‘Well, what. nat? . And you eay something entirely di fferont., bee te in: the Seventh Dopartuent,, prtor to. gene” over to the First ; "Depa taent;, approzinately 195, ee ad? : Oe tne whit? 1 would agree. “with - this. 1t you had completed ‘university or nA mtLit-: -acadeny; they. gavo. then thore., a : And tor all the rest of ‘the. institutes, it. was introduced in 19a1. As you seo. here. Instituto of International Relations, —- Do not worry -- wo have people who were at the Institute of Interanttouat Relations, and they tnow when and hor they gave thes. That is good; that Is very j:ood
104-10227-10006 B. AY ta fn was prtoy fo bik. meted toe Nk. told. you that it ves vpproxdumtely 1055): I-correstly You digist eu gems nonsense that aever ‘entsted, No, that Iss, tie Vay itoran, If you made an error, if you-veceived it in YOGY, thon s.r so. No, no, ho, no == , bueno r “roncaber: we wore sitting Im a inet “POOAT.. right, rirht, tent. “wet, ot course, you ware. fookine around with tour tats the waeke - time, and now you have forsetten tint you ‘havo to say - that poe were working mn tho RIeGe vopartient, know when thay’ wits Intyoilue: a ant fen “they could have ‘wean oka  £t Any to Peon tiem... 7 Bo ato, I: éivty tinid that bee ase (Cuaughs)) I wont there vith n. Tt is. not Important: ‘tone with who. yout went; I said, yes, I oe irc yen 9 1; approx inately int Aud that is why you lave to “push” the Tourist Department, ‘to soy: fel worsen. axe our section, ‘Atta hanciant 2 (Pause) ): Now we will tal! x About how and what! schoo! you enters : in Leningsad - w= 1 dtd not: ints 2. that, conversation. . et _ Tho last tine’ we Bpoke wo talied ‘about how you “coupleted. the 28 ie ostornat, at tho mining institute. oT a “I 7 Well; with God's: help, you xeecived a certificate or a docuscnt! . that you had. couplated the ninth grade there <= you told ows se soncone' shelp: 00° i, Fae l . You saint to Leningrad bo Birdy; to: which school. did you-n0. . Yel: To the Navy Preparatory School,
104-10227-10006 A DB. i Who teauod | tts oresr. Nothing nord, Dia you havo: birth cart etente wth you “Ne, rats | take {t alow: ‘Then when. you. went. to Seen tarend you | hind only an ‘order to thia te “pchool. Fg ol a ts , sence me wigan octaves the Kavy,” Who signod Lt; 1 do not remember, _ Well, you arr ivied An Leningrad nt the ratlway station; pro eae tho piece of papor that yo ‘had gave the address to ‘sitet: OM. supposed. to (10, hovt, and: wos. to seo? I sought out. the avy Preparatory: School ; “1 showed up, told then I hal-arrived. fn what. month wag, tyhs. fears Well, tho end of sunser again, this stretches our undesstandir of the tine.: I cannot tell you. for pure, because I do not renenber. The ond of sunmer; wiat is that. -- August. August, September.
104-10227-10006 Be Av Well, August oy Sepientea Vt, the owt Btilb wis cobah on. | ‘hoeninervad had just roeont by been Ltberated fron the blosiads , AL Very woll; then yew beran to study. DB. No, — I went with a croup of ident. to cut Lumber , “AL Mere. ’ Ba. ‘Outsitde:of Loningrad, : toward Narva. . : A. Mow far was this troei Lon inetad, B. I do not reaeabor, 3 A mg gto wenowetees yy 294 19 7 : a . B : 1 thin: at wae Kore. fia — iLloioters, | be They sont us in tiuciis. | - | a a - _ ay : : ~ . What. 2160 did you hisve with you; 0 nN, I took... I leit the food unt fori. behind, ... took an old onc. .- Furthermore, I received a yor’: uni fori there, - : A. What <= did you have two unt forms: 3, IE had the one that was 4 ssued at tire school fa Bau, me I bad the one that 1 had had made. : oS eis ig
104-10227-10006 2 a 7,0 Whew “around taatwa" “tet inhableed placen da you ic ? then there wis anatiner , Heoalisned ot Lae on tae ogherestse: fo there was also e- thoat bo tt hoseturs ayny oe a Little etatten. 67 station was conplotcly duno! ished. . 4. But vhere were you slay ini; wack you. wore fn the forest. Wo lived in-tents, | ~ *, How-wore they hented..” | ‘ Jd Bye Tacy absolutely wore hot mented. . aw Voll, WAR = You were: there for threq wonths, and you did sot o-. any heating: iz. Me wore not there ‘tirec vontis, a.nonth and a hal? or twor. f, “Zarlier you said you were there for moro than three montis. ((fnus:) Then, you lived in tents, auc they wore not heated, ..... Se ne How... ‘How long were you there 0. oe met be we Ee ee abe a habe RB. A nontir and a half = two. A, ‘ast. You told the doctor you wore tucee for more than three mouths. 4 é ’ 4 t a E BRB. OUT ‘do not remember, to you -= what you said to at. all thd “t -" A. What m= ((do you want me)) ta road
104-10227-10006 0 Tain was only a monthoace AE tost. 8. Powas there a aantin and 3 inile two. A, You said: threesfour mouths. oR Now you will say sts: ~ A, No; Tan “repeating what you caid -7 you said that: you: word E1see he _ tyo. and a halt, tree, three and a nnlt, and four months. ee Taeny you: “wera there one and a “halg=two ‘months: a waon did. the studics in the school ‘beg in -- at the one vite you. i entered. . a . oo Be Classos started Inter, . a er - ee “AS When wore. they ‘supposed to start. 3, They. wore to start in October. A, Well, ‘thoy were to start in october. "BL They ‘began. “then... atthe beginning of Hovenbor, because scnool not. - . . . Co os | Eactlities were/ready , there vas, no. wood. A, Waat. did you. setudy a at the. boginning. (paused? . us ‘Well, tell. ne What’ you were celia’ in tho third course. at this school... , . , 3B. ((Pause)) Literature, Russian. A. Whaat else. B. Several speciat dtaciolines.
104-10227-10006 . Why 48 ‘One called a battloship and the-other, a cruiser. ~ what ts ‘the difference botween a battleship and a eruiges mat s< are: you atl. wong to insist that you studied ata Waat & ine Shipebutiding, oJ} the varvons sitps, gfgnaling, markers, byors, z ‘ z + : Licht houses, the hlstery of the Nusstan Navy. Waat is the difference between a cruiser and battlesatp ‘hee “Those are two different’ chips, tvo of the hinnest. ((fruse)). What is thie difference, op. that is tho. way they: are annied. As there. arc ‘the cutter, tlic patrol bout, ‘tho torpeds ont, “ee travolor. ake I am ot talking; about, cutters, travelers, eta; =e Toam asiitas: ((Pause)) Why” is one called ‘ono thing, and the other, anotrer, _((Laughs) )° 1 cannot ansver you, Paty‘ ae . Pav yes “gchool: . ae ‘(Gin -English)) Thank you, What did you gay. Thane yom ((Pause)) Did you ever hear “patundrat Na polubare shvatra sorts (Alara! A mop is burning on the prow: »”. I have heard “Paluadra"; I have heard “shvabra",
104-10227-10006 we A, “By A, Be Be e A. “yint ‘does it ean’ oo “Padunitnns “palundra”™ << that is pi Se , -anean? ve By | "You also know "shvab © Couche) I know “shyabra" algo. _ ae? “gly 7 toe, oe So tgt . , “yell, wat doos this: expression an: iti tich every sattor | knows —. nee {do not know; Ido not !:aew what this “shvab a. tore _ “wat =m arc. you stil} toing - to insist that you were in a avy ro bie wor aad »- ey) have you hever AU Ea mere c. eee iva: rolutin nice: Bhynbea ror. “palundra’, Well, what: is “paiundra: a \ eels 4, ; a An nlaria (trevoga). ‘Furthor? What. docs ‘tlic ‘exprossion, “Palundra! Na potubake shvabra“fortt.", I do not-know.“Na_polubale _shyabid orkut I know "bak", “polubak”, ‘yut! G@rear. det)" vr “poluyut crear) "preparatory school. twas. _ - What is the difference ‘between’ a crutser and a battleship. > The ost powerful cosibat untt is the battleshtp.. - me Bowe ‘The next one is the crufser. = - The cruiser may be a Light ohe of a heavy one. Lt sien This ts one difference. . 3 oe ae
104-10227-10006 CoB, tna ptors and on the Intact market, ace Uinderieeouni")2, beeaiine vostin wee Oe AL he thins that youn belting, saa of thene atorica, taey < I dy not. vant. to hear anyuore., Ie Voll, yaw do not have’ te. : “Well, bee 41:60 At ‘docs age me yest w acesaintiy tot poubaeté,.¢ then. aay 80...” or: the other: 21, do.not-kriow ((%G)) C(A and 2B epoals Bt te gaze thie)) < nqalist taat, but ft conte not BALE flaws 7 As (Tan not eayin:. anythin = thrercs sa taey vould carry or ani tives th ation and not, cary tho end. _ B, I did not even show up at the achoot: a= tn ‘offtecr” BIT. to Ber at | tine. and vith that, the patter TAB cloned. i Dewan a 4 ‘s %
104-10227-10006 But they, didnot ive? ne, SY A, What hospital wee you, av yovitity Islend . AL How Yong woo you thee uotiea and fathar coud-to- dee yous”: “Well, Waat, -~ did toy not vant’ to ficate, but. sent tt to the, elty a exty: military comissnrint: ‘Bont it matiatary cunatasarint , anil tia to. the rayon military: con bss ay tat <= at ny place, of residence: —_ whore: I. was mppos ed to Live. 7 . . A cortifiente, even two corti tteates. May I ginolzo.- A. Yes. Where wag ‘the city military: conaissariat Located: s B.. 1 do not. remembor, 9 | en. Cree a ee ced eo cg tet ARR T oO o3, At the Navy iloaptital,. aw reurteeith Lave (Lf-aya Dhityn) on RECEe! : BR. Towees thera aALowt.- tite: ‘wouter, mbout Ao nonta.. nhont ageo wes: ‘Uns tamyeeee Tow. = = -
104-10227-10006 tho Militdn lo, : i “we WEL, what cid you: ee the eilitary cornaissartiat: } i Ware did you fave to do there. . 4 ©. (tC had to cet documents: Croa tac sahoel; I received the duocuscs! i from the school, | A. Why through the silitary comaissdriat, and not directly from thie | school, | What docs the military + Susie state have to do" with it. F You were not being, called into the Arny -- you were still ‘too you: “ ; 7 Bo. Well, that is the way they wont about it. officially. A. Then, officially, they sevut the. documents fom-ttc Sthool to the. 2 : military comaissariat. . B. To .the City military countss aqking; and | the city mititnay conmisser: 8. s after I showed up there == ‘sald. that I....1 showed the cortifiente oe eo ee that I was furnished with, ‘Living quarters. on Tolnachey thoy sont, certificate .to the Rayon military counissariate where Toluachey St _ was situated, sees . 1 vad * Boe A. Weat afd you receive at the rayon atilitary comnissariat, _ 7 a ’ What did the rayoh military commissartat rive yous ; ea B. ((Pause)) Tucy pave me a document saying that I nad gone throuz} the 8th, 9th, and 10th parades of the school. -«- this was onc Cocunent, And the sccond docu:cnut was on what kind of grades 1 wot. on. the Subjects I studicd ir tue loth prade. A. How could they five you a cocuncnt that you had been in the Sth, &. and 10th erades. You were not in the 9th «race there,
104-10227-10006 8 -.cn.. .S Pie ara Obie 6 Att 5 Ae mete Neartie Otee mee nineteen ek ‘1 he] _ Nothing more. Well, 1 been etudytoy Creve, o., well... ther cave it tu me Taen tho rayon military eoncabesacdai tesucd you a earth cheat one - indicated you aad been «itusdv tage, In wiich school’ In the Baku Navy Preparatory School and in the Leningrad CCsenool)) what clse was written in this certificate: ((Pauso)) I do not rexcaber, I do not remember, What else did military coumissariat give you: I do not remenber, £ do not ve:nenber, I do not sce any basia for the military conmissariat to do any tis dre" You were not being taken into the Army -- you were not of ace, ‘Vou had” netieing Eo da - was the mtittary. connissariat. a The school could have gant tt to ‘you at ‘home or you could ‘hae gone there and gotten. a ewrtiricate that you had studicd there; that ‘is’ a Very woll -- you were at nilitary conmissariate, and you recolivad a certificate that you had studicd at this. school. There wasmother docunent -- on my marks in the Oth grade, Well... in the 10th prade. tof Now, tell ine how you received your passport, and ‘how you were registered, That woman who was tice residence manager for the dormitory “<< siic processed it throurh the ilitrta, And then, I received a DaAsSSport, wd oan cathe ORE teibasPey um, fille EP teed. Boh troy rel HG PAAREE Heed. ci Makod ro ‘a we i ei thea!
104-10227-10006 ~~ ° . me BG A. What iad of documents did you praduut -- f you did not present then to this wonan \8 ia order to recetve i tien to the MALttda, passport: Bp, A copy of the birth eertificate, the ecrtificates fron the sciiool, . ced the ccrtificate from tie telehn tien . A, A copy ig not aceeptable, ‘Only. the genuine birth certificate may be sulmnitted oat the Passport If it is lost, you have 5 been to have a ducunent stating that it ha: lost. B. I am telling you as I remomber ft; I am telling you as I remember it vee men And these documents, plus the certificates frou the tehnitun.... A. “The birth certificate, the certificate from the tekhn tun wo that you are studying there or that you have entered. therg as 4 student. ° }. ...Taat I liad entered there, and ‘then, tho.second -- fro the tekinikun, that .I have quarters in a dormitory of tho tekhatiua, oF ‘ ‘Tolmachev Street.... . a V ; i | | A, This will be considered the place of residence, — — — } y = me i _ — } RB, Yes. 3 i ! i oo | ‘A. What olse: | “oy, (CPause)) ‘That was all. . A. ((Pause)) Well, you had to present a photo. a . + fe Lo _ _. . ae é ott om 8 rivdecuiit: ie vo . . . ‘ MAAS vat. co | ce ert ce ee een eee EI enn eee ee le oe a ~~ erecta cage en aaa ite mee tote a
104- Oz? 10006 “The Commission must ast. . fe arc not podan te return to that subject. “Well, wint was £ to do. "To be in the mtlitary “Eb did not want that ‘To study. "Where: "I went to the Institute of International Nolattons, “Yn 1945 T entered itt and cinished in 1949, at the end of 13-22. “And then, the assifpsnacits Conaiss ion asked me ‘‘Vihere do you wri’ work; ' , _ . os "I said ‘Ilana military man; Give mo- sone th ing closer. “to the mare ‘The MID -doss| not interest me’, ‘Very well,” wo will sce", a? way ‘did MID, not Interest me. oS. oe oe get I will tell you -~ because fron. the ‘second graduating cla S ID is only 10 percent.... from the second eraduating class, Alright; listen --2 “11D doés not interest mo, ‘Very well, we will Beey we will call you, = “Taey called ne == “they called me to tho NGB, to Personnat . 3 “ARASUMOV still was - in, “Personnel called me; they talked with me.” Right, , _ re . They called ne to Personnel ve MGR; they beran to talk with me ab: “this and that, "Irn the Ucn. “I said that I was not very cnthusiastic," oe 7 Oae word was not undcrstood -= it was cither the word, “desire”, “not very euthusiastic tno enter," "Well, I sald, ‘You goo..." "We talked, and thon tines let na go. “After that, after a day or two, I was called to the GRU.
104-10227-10006 oo oa @ eee a ‘Cony and wock tn the fiotd of information’, they satd. "And ‘thefi they said, ‘Dy you want to. be héte in the Center or ce zo | want ‘to, study bn. our school er fo to ‘a8 peesplional area. 7 aT Reid that wt vos Stitt ho yonay mas 4. het. me start ‘e a er tyr th Laren: ‘that is, not in. the Cr miter. not in Moscow, ' Be Right. A, "Ate the sane ‘thao. I. do not know vhat those, words Aga; ‘maybe you | yore “going to say. son: “thing else. tell, thoy ° said’ to. ney Well, ve Can now offer you Leningrad. 6 - Far East. $f > os rr ns ee B. Right, absolutely right. AL Wand 1 ((ehese)) the Ear past. "t waite to work in, ‘the Fat ‘Bast. ore "why have T. ‘told you this. - "Because. I did not work’ direc tly an the Conter. Be FoR, Rights: “They were very Surprised: that Iapveed to go to the Far East." 0% | “B, fo the Far Best. 7 te canine nte ne nancy neste ens one nena sees eae . A. “There, the condi tions arc very. scvere. "I worked there... I-cane to “loscow on leave, "Here, they: proposed: that I mo. to the Baltic area. "y went to the Baltic. area, a . "In the beginning, to Gevuany'." B. They said “to Cormanry", but. tie . od A, “To the Sosnits, vagnité nage ei
104-10227-10006 a we b.- Sassnit:. isin. . AL “on. Bu; gon Istaudy; tu: Intellivenca Patnt ‘there ote abandovad." Po MR.  Rishst; everythin: fe poate: oo ae e : but 1 didcnst po thoes, Pits olnt moved to UALtl ys cee Bovtetn Aw "Troy transfecred te goa Losinerad; £t {Ls called B. Well. no | o- not t Lontnes Jas That is not ag exeror, ° a ee fee B,°. An obvious ‘error << Peconuse. . Ay) Thove. ds a big ditfere “B.. No, no, no; fT could sot uave anidsLeningrad, I could fot have fake Leningrad , It ig an ort Lous: on av AS I Tisive nade no crror ? af any ind. Nere -= “becaus ic: after you. sate Whee £0 wa cs ches: lec Le net only “hy nysed t; “put. with “NII tho. ot: tors 3...No, no, hot there ts anu olivious crror, an obvious error...) 6 8 A, ‘Furthermore, -= tiere in still auother erros here. == "they teance ferred ne to near Lentinerad; it ts called Sovets':."— 7 no == Baltiysk B. Not Leningrad, not Lonincrad.., A. Listen «= I do not want to.... a a aS Ney mete, - BB. Well, I could not have said Leningrad,
104-10227-10006 Ogle, g you gata a, Be: ‘ £ fo H ' r posed the question, not tee aAuse you ‘did not say* it =. you adit But when you say how: tate is a bir auestion, biuits I | Cee ally >. -muestion 4 at. | Sovotsi 4 Well, well, well — “he: atnad ne ; a: is obvious that there. “ih fg a I could ‘not haves. I said, “with all of the errors ' in the punctuat for ‘To HGB is catliar’. “Understand 93 that waco... waat your did net osay: Fo wrete (Conky). that watet cr ae you <= henostlyt, i I could not have gald... this {sa bic question, ar 7 ‘2t; that: is. for sire. “: the ‘for: ior - peiiadl-4 Baltiysk ==, thts is the forpier Ritkes,, 1s ‘near Baltiyss, ee T understand. vhat you. aro ta ‘ing ahout, but you said “Lontnsine", SF why: Leningrad <= that- Pil tats. Should bo ‘hear Leningrad. is. hors. -¢ ce at tie beginning ‘of 1952)... 0 I-arrived there in the summer of 1952. Well, J an gy ing {Geonatng waat you. said. Ioan fot nak. ing this up. This. is word for word. _ sf, oe perhaps I did not pee rete; “ete. here and th rigoand from there at. the bosinning of 19%... LC cand they told ne that .- '®e now are taking a Aunber | and they, satd,.
104-10227-10006 eR PTA om 6 ee ee ee Wem. TE he: ati et tate te ere tae a eae Tr OS eve EDIE Ra Haare ERGN EP SheME AL ibe ate Uy i, A. B, A. BB “IT know the chiefs of intelligence of a number of fleets == on the .. That. is tho part of your discuss ton wh Leh concerns Leningrad ,. your, , Of course, you have to Wray your own conclusion, _ . & a e s Ko, no, absolutely no, I teld cou titi 2 cane ot the Soranwion of treypines 1953 [am telling: you what yor cata, Listen further e= “To snid, ‘heok, Toma a soldier e- whatever yon.” order, , ‘Well, since 1942, Tohave been woah Linge in these organs, ‘And before tint, I we A sArlor,' | - ae a _. “But why do I tell all of thia . "That, at the Center, I now... well, whon- “ ‘I tnow VORONTSOV, REXHENEY ; 1 know KALOSILIN who headed Persone! - I know there". .., TISIMOVY == he Neaded Information... a Vicen\eairal,... _ Blact: Sea, MACALADCE; Ln. thy Dar, East, ‘Capt First Rank MEL'NYT: coy", fs a , ms ape entrance on duty in the organs, your education, and so forth. There was na basis, for all the persons who spoke with you earlteb.. i They did not belfove ac, voins on.... oe femeg gy “a” And thero is basis also for ne not’ ant. not to belteve you, but to talk about : ‘this question, in order -- as they say == to put every thing ; ini ‘order, But you, in speaking with me, have gotten further in than out, p CIM ACen Ina at ae ee Fi 1 rE With you I absolutely an sayin (XG)..., er And last.... ) To say how (176)... 4
104-10227-10006 ‘ Lad i ri b. A. ~B. | i _- 1. | A. i BR. i ' | ; A, i i B. i with yous that you stieutd ate playing watle you sthll heave ‘Tocan answer you tirat C — &, ,e ae bagt tain. Touced¢ tot Cb yor fee dn nocybendly war elie 1B ES Iogtill have the husane mptrit << It would bo better for got ke you nade the ender recdilctum tert for yoamgsuel? Croan the convernat lo: 4 ant .aies gn were held with you cartiov pad those conversattons waleh I opportunity, althoush bb is over gualler. Or you will have yourseli to biaag....- vant LT have aatd dno all these dave - absolutely.... Iona trying to remember everything as it was. All of theso days I have heen trying to tall to you go well and . politely.... Correct; I cannot say any ttihus against this; it is nhsolutely cre. va) ...8o that you understand that I have ‘no knife hidden avafast you & _ my cont and neves did, I emmot téll about that wm ROU whether you have a tiatfe. But you have an obvious tcndency ta dece tvo mo into thint:ing Enat i nn not telling tho truth, taat Ioan playing a ease we this is fou in every eonvergation, fn every conversation.... & This speech you have just said, your commentary, again convinces mm? that you have no desire to tell the truth. I an telling you only the trutis. Absolutely, surely, Iocan tell you that I an telliny you the truta - I place my hand on my heart, I have absolutely no reason, no desire, not to tell the truti. Quit givin; this opinion of yours, Gootoya, fy GOLA ered
104-10227-10006 - A. Goodly, 5 . | ((ind V2 August 1965 Berston)) . ne CES wees yemecmitinan atin ess ! reds,
104-10227-10006 CQ2 August 19C5)) : A, well, what is new today. .B. What is new today. A. Yes. B. “one or two nore’. days Lice yesterday, and one can dig his rrave, the: Ukrainians gay. - ae oO A, A ctteen B A frave; that is, saree te}, I think. ‘that if you aro wong to" continue Like this, that tho way At. will be. I am tolling you quite: eortously. That is the way it will be, Woll, aside from that, are you a superstitious person or not. Today sa. Fr iday.. - 8, Ah... you mean the thirteenth. _ A. And the thirteenth. Some people consider this a Lue! zy day; somo do ‘not. Well, with all of the conversat tons: I have had with you and those in wiich they tailed with you éarlior fer over. a year, I ennnot Bo? that any fortune has gailed:on you,. B; Yos, it has not exiled onéne for 497 days; fortune has turned aun; from:me and shows its back tome. A. How long aro it turncd away.: re ig.
104-10227-10006 DB. . Further, the problen stands thus, aa I see no need to. continue the” Froa the sotrt vaen dees domi te this botel’, Well, I thin’s fortune taetied away from you long, Lon: ana. a= fea: yor contacted us. I cannot say that <= ( never had any unpleasantness at Wor's or at home, . - Well, I wanted to tall: with you about your wife and cadldron. I do not think that this has any cssential significance == tie quis. ‘456 quite clear vithout this. And, therefore, I do uve thin’: we need lose time on this question. ‘There are a number of dest lous we still could tal : about, but from. visa you said before, during the interrogation, and later, with =o, the answers to these qucstions have been received; and there is no reason to root around =< Locause from all of these conversations vio havo had, you have not draw: the necessary conclusions, and sou hav: i¥h displayed absolutcly no desire to tell the truth. (XG). .¢-And begin a normal rolationship... conversation. further. Today, I just have a fev questions to ask. Toll me -- is ah true oy not ~- and why did they call you to the cc crs. TFLEGINA, the nother, tote a letter, I have tho followins Ho laine - you were not a member of thea Tarty 3° I think ~- bestiiae of ny father ((positoa)) (1G). s Well, your father -- that is one thing; but there was the Norsorol. Secretary of the Konsgnol o.;could have decided,
AeA ee eee Ree eames St dee kee inne ete ee cnet Ouneee eof whan gbnmmeitere on ce ok » ®@ 3, Ite, se wrote the CC go tie oC would somehow influence father as -condidate menber of the CC Craur or, £f tt did not inftuense ais, | at least would spos':. to hin, cnc then father would influense: o>, A. Did your father talk tt over with you: 3. Father knew everytatac, everything, and he sont.... The first tino he went «= he went to the Central Committes, out do not. know with taom he spoke; perhaps even SHKIGVYATOV spo':c “ht and the second timc, soreone called hin << not SHXIRYATOY, 92 coun: He told him to co scfcw himself. A, ‘Who told hin to go serew hiugself. 3) Father. a, A. To SIXIRYATOV: “B. No, not SUXINYATOV -- T said, not SUTINYATOV....— _ Someone from the KPK ((Xontvol‘naya parttynaya Nonissiya as OR Control Comuission)) and they sumioned no triiee. A Ido not think that a candidates member of the CC will tell an: vos enployee to fo screw hinuself. Be Vell, you see, fatnor vas souethine of a ghor't—tenporad. ran; scoune ‘times Wien hae flared wo... ie once called YOROSILILOV; called hin 2 provocateur in the Presidiua. , . You know, when he flared woo... May I snoke. S, 2 co not thins that te woul ocDLlUIPYATOY that cay. ad 72 Ra tA eee Well, not SuULILYATO?; ao esy that the Zirst tine... perhaps it °75 SiLiGRYATCy waa spocl sition i fe fivst tine; the first tise ie. to tal: with CC, 9 - Tacy showed hin the Iettos watch TELEGINA crete.
104-10227-10006 Trey sowed al. Ho said: that the rest was direc. re Well, what wes there ins B. Well, 4t wes truc that To oweas mot liv tne with per, taat I Nad tete lives , ; ’ and so on and so on, ” Ay Well, whom did you sce at the CC. | I _ ‘i B. A. Party investigator, a Party tnvestipator <= CHITOV;. such & nano i. renenber, , - ven tho fellows used tu see itu -- thero was Party member liens ORLOY,... Wa... Vadim did not (fo because he was not 2 Party acter. "And Vitalty YINNOV, who knew me and Avgustina, went. A, Woll, in which bullding vas this ce, a. ; BR. This was.., I will tell you Noy <= I wont directly. to the Dass Uurer. the main CC buildin:. _ sen aes rt vertetmeea een fy : A, Where: i B. I received a pass in tho yinin CC building. ° A. Wheve at the main CC building, ft B. You go covn to Norin Square, beyond Kuybyshev Street, on the right side, , The main buildins: is on the vicht side. A. Well, where is the CC ‘Lluoeated e= on which street: : B, Fron Dzherzhins':ly Stvect, it socs dorn to Kozin Square, hoyond Kuybyshev Strect, en tie richt etde.
104-10227-10006 ei . . inane a ae Metra Aig SPR aS CH ee ety Het A fos sro inee atretanene ve we pce anseansasans . i : eee A, B. . Woll, where fe tha Pp. Ioetnnet toll you for surc == f tuld you that I only receive: pans on my pnssport and sont Lieve; two § ferosn, Well, if you mask, fae ten thoss, propably you Fouled von or the PX ia situated, I do not renenber., And vere you ever: {nthe “Bi at any other tine. _ No, I vine not, I was only at the calts Comalssion which is not beyond Kuyhysicy Streot, but beforo “uybyshey Etreot -- inside here is the wxist - Abroad Commission. One can (0 through tho: throurhway court or fro: faybyntey Street. Well, anyway, you do not iano where KPK ig. You wont to such a place of authority for the first tine == you rust remomber sonsthing. I tell you.I receivod a pass! on the first: floor in ‘the main uitete. and went thore. - — May I smoke. Yes. ‘Vell, ‘they spol:e rudely with ne the first tinc, I vrote down 2 nunber of questions, And the second ‘tine I vent over I answered then in.:ritinz., Did you ever tell. us about ‘the “bulletin of the KGB. I did,
. 2 104-10227-10006 3) A. When did they besin te dssue the bublettna Be. Welt, thera ds the one and another bulletdn... there arg tro builotins, . | , hey are tssued by tic Second Chter Directorate. They beran issuing bt ta loso-baso, A. What is it called. 7 . B. They aro printed ana ningormvaph, stamped top sceret; the bulletin, 4 number... . | , . : a A. iat -- you know of two buble t ins (equcu by the Second Chie “ Directorate, | (B. Yos; ono bulletin Which is distetbuted: ‘to the Chafirzaan, tho Poputy * eleudialite the ‘Chiefs of Directorates, and the Chicts of Depay tuentr : ; of tho Second Chief Dircetorates.., only == neither to the First no | * the Third, with the cCzraoption of tho Chiefs of tho. Directorates. 7 a A, And tho second tulletin : : 1 r ‘ B, And the second bulletin was also issued by the Second Chlof Direct. . F: I for all oporational personnel of the Second Chicf Direc turate : : i | I do not think “it ves read in the other chief directorates. - F: And it was sent to the UNGR; tae NGB in the outlyin;: areas. | . And they in turn... to the Chiefs of Directorates and Chicfs of Second Departments ++ that — tire idea; later, it was dec leed to i inform the operational personnel of the Sccond Denartuents, . ! A, Well, Who worked on the stafi... who issued tho bulletin. : B. At the besinnine it was GQISMENIO, the Analysis Denartment -- that a was the Fiftecnth Dopartuont, i But, in 162, tn the bo duming of 1952, from January, it was ina L Service of the Sleventh Dire. tion (napravleniyo), 6 C
104-10227-10006 A, Lb, $ . . ? os | ie B, ANT oak sek sede case aes BE te arte terete nines wre Nemes onrs eon ETRE N ee 8 testi RE Se oe Lass Bet Par hate Y a Pe Until 1962, I road only ‘that waich wags for the éntiro staft of 'Sccond Chicf Directorate. - And, din additton, the damn yres Us Vepartnent cave thea matertal. To:-ethor.., the Si Elles nvlyss is Departrent, Do you know who too! x dircet ard active part in issuing the bulte: and did nething ole Well, in the Divecttou there were several ennloyoes.. ((Pause)) I do not vencuber the names: And thoy collccted matuertals throuriout the Chic! Directorato, « How many tines did you sco or road tho KGB bulletin.- the ” Woll, I said tho KGB Bulletin, not that of the Sccond Chiof “Directorate, oh, you have in mind the Collection (Sporn ik) w- that is anothor thing; that is not a butlotin, the Collection. Woll, what 4s 1t called: ‘It is called the Collection; tho iicher School issucs it. Well, what is this collection called, Collection; that is what it is eallod == the Collection. Thoro is sonething clse vritten on it. Well, I do not remenber, Collection is written on it in .bold letters. This is printed in hook town. Well, what “ind of a collection ta it? ie ar 78 oh raccienetinaere Rai ae cs
104-10227-10006 Yea have te Yopouas leh toy Ss * Mey ATE periesp ae: aay ‘ . . ~ . Je LT COUNTY renner: @f fee 2Ut: ve Miectten, Collection, Ao: Pt is ortnted fa bows fee: te tic ieher Sehool, wy Give at Teast ane ean! oo 2 @:dlection widen you vOAd ee crs S, , , : written jn it? ea: B. The matertal poling into tie Collection a= well, of course, ft is sonething different; usually there ig an. introduction by the Caaticas or a Deputy, . | - Tren there is an exchan:re of sxperienées w- by a chief of a dircetors? or the Chiof of tho Sccond Department in which thoy raiso oie ot another question, about eases, about piahting aronta, they give exaaples...6 | - 7 “AS Well, =IV@ ne an exanple of an introduction tich you road, Well, I do not remeber, { qa not remember... a political overton. ‘ ‘ POTS PRL he oy tne e 4 TE re Rae ne - ee eaten, See Ae aA aEN eee EIR SS meee sa Tell, for cxanple, what hind. of case did the Chicf of tho Viadintr. Oblast NGB Diroctorate write about. eRe B. I do not renenbor. ((Pausc)).|- ‘Besidss that, the Seventh Directorate, algo issiies... even. the Seventh Directorate... on questions of surveiilance, technical equipacnat.. A. And there is onc issued fy the First Dircctorate. B, Tais coos not so to the gperational personnel, but probably only to . the Chicf of the Directorate o= the sarie as the bulletin of the j Second ((Chief Dircctorate))..,.oaly to the Chief of the First Cilof f. oe oo oF, i Directorato. ((Pause)) — ye And that Collection... on the cover of the Collection == under tae (eo word, Collection }#.- ther: ts the had.e of the Chekist.
104-10227-10006 TTT en Renin 0 ORS OR ONE OED OMe ARTE EL NE Peeré bine OE AIOE T RE CERES ENS HORNER ARN Sac t utters |. Sees VOU ARE pal aan iss ace INE EP actor xi: a 4, ne A, Oo 7 @ “Did you ever reeetva the Chevint hadge. No, Well, vot Nave meationed thin tadce -< how did Lt apron that you pormitted such ar errer sfien you sald that, at the Institute of ; International Relations, you received the enblea in Lass \ Honestly == n 193% += that fs exact.’ There were not any yct, and ticy were not civing then -te anvone. In 1958. 2? ' “Well, how can you instst . . ; 1 . I insist, because I revenber... [ venembor how I prepared to zo tiv: BELIKOV was roing tices first, and... and... yes... wo prid -= we fb to pay for tho enbless, fo had to havo ‘the mone to pay =- I do not renenber tac anount. — Put no one got then, mzitacr in 1953 nor in 1959, Ilo, NO, nO =~ in 195. I read you the deerce I 2o not hnow ewe ther: are many decrees. “ Very many of thes. Many. You Bizondy Goes tah sa atts Gi “yo peonla whe studied thors at th: tine, ; nratae-
104-10227-10006 |B -3u. @ Wired of poonds rraduate* Riche, vient, Mheodco ly wba we Go drsd as the inatitute, A. Ro one is making a accrot of thid, B. This ig absolutely no secret The reagen loam telling you ae hocaus? fn aclavge voon es GTi ewe Fo ovengnter.... A. Thet is not the thins en I do not cars where you wore sittine: th: simple quention ist-how could a mas have recefived*an emPien when did not yet eiist Q, Wo w= Tovcelived tt, ortoe to tiie @serae. of 1932 whatels vom rea’, A, Woll, they did not stvo any... 2 ze R, Well, thoy: ave... nt tho boginning, they did not cive any. «= I finished in 15950; thay were not civine trea; they did not sive them tn 1051, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1955... in 195° they gave * set Vell, I de net thin: vo can continue tye conversation, because 3 are contradicting, not only yourself’, but the facts tuat hava te established with 100 pereent: certainty — facts we hnow Iike ous - own fingers, . : “You are trying a= for want reason, I do 2st understind, I do not understand; and only for thir yeaso3., cnly for thin reason, the doctor talked with you for two ‘weetts or core. Do vou know way ae sooie wlth yous A. To establish &f you vw 9 halfevit o> com:al _ only for that ue reason dtd he tall: with vou, And he concluded tint yeu cy. ce ae © ah apres e
104-10227-10006 | REE ag, Seana toe, See rey ee PO Ab Adegrv wh heme kin baat abe cashes ase sae te eng ane 6, Tye ga. Yes’ ee Lecause itty met only for ve, but fer all of the purnons ta have worked wttlr you... a: You have told such nonsense a. Go yeu thimy that we wilh let alt this jnss throuch, ana taat got can J4> Nera ag ouuch as feu tant, as 5 much as you vant. . Q You have absolutely no concept son of wiat wo know and how much we know, | | Of course, I do not I:now - that ts absolutely rirht, I have no conception of any ind of what you tnovw, You cannot understand... Well, lot te talk ag ian to nan ~~ you flopped the very Tirst day : you mot with Us in Goneva;--the first day; the first day you net ‘us in Geneva, you flopped, “ (Qa English)) That's all, I thourpht that you _— mush nore gharp-vitted and intcllicent an: could have undoratood this long ago. - , When you were just on your vay here, I thoucht that “in a eoapta :: of days ho will catch on to what is coing on nnd overy thing will -9 ' " dittorontly".... ose ft ee ss But here, the whole question is wrotig fron the beginning (("at the - goot")).,.. . You consider ne.... You do not understand the shiplest things and do not want to unders - thon, ‘ ; (Gime of toot #14)) os. R . rd we - . a Erase ™