ome (Aree POF) $44 6088 mame & Pale t “2 —TOP- SECRET ! were three fights, it was the last one, it was March 12th, 1961. There is not a aingle piace of evidance to place another wiretap other than the one which I'll reprosont to you took place the last part of October, 1960. And I'd like to work with you to try to figure out whether you'ro assuming that the tap did not take place before tho fight, or you have somehow placed this incident with the poison being in the possession of Mahou at an improper time. Mr. Shimon. Well, I can -- thia surfaced after I had been to the Fontainbleu when Rob told mo. Now, this tap could have been months ago. fut whenever the Bureau moved in on him ts when he told me about it. vow, if they didn't do a thing about it from ‘#0 to ‘ot. 1 don't know about it, but I assumed hecaune it suddenly surfaced that this was something recent. This was my own assumption, you sec. Mr. Dawson. The difficulty with that isa. though, you put a lot of waight on the ability of Maheu to blackmail the CIA.
fe ahwi fis/smn2i | 3 & @ : 2 i : te ean a Fane onar Mr. Shimon. Well, that's the way it was describe to ~- Mr. Dawson. Using a participation in the passage of the poison. Mr. Shimon. Well, that's the way it's beon discussed by Sam, at great length, and by Johnny, that he got off the hook by telling that phony story. Ho said that as lato as even a year ago; he's still talking about it, how he got away with it. Ho got away with it again with the Long Committee. And how that stupid tau, and the way the boys handled it, brought all the heat and it resulted in a whole year of contempt for Sam because the Bureau aot on him. Johnny wont to prison, and both of them trace all of their trouble to the time when the FHI moved in on them as a result of that tap. So if he had kept his mouth shut and hadn't used all that junk, they would have never been involved. That's where I get my impression because 1 -~ I have no interest. Hell, the Bureau wasn't -bothering me. Mr. Dawson. But you're quite convinced in your own mind, in your discussions with Rosselli, Maheu and Giancana, that they had not previously attempted or plotted to assassinate Fidel Castro? Mr. Shimon. No. Mr. Dawson. No, you're not convinced? Mr. Shimon. No, } alwayn thought that was the first attomp:, TOP-SECRET
Cc ¢ A o> wa ‘eee 7072: $44 4000 Poe cee a) Sent By K really, I -- Mr. Dawson. It was an assumption you made. Mr. Shimon. Yeah, bacause just to bring it up for the first time, and I hadn't heard anything before that, and I said, thia was my first meeting with Sam. I had been with Johnny soveral times, and with Bob constantly, and no conversation about it. So I figurod this must be something new. He had other things going. Ho had other things going on around the country, he talked about those quite freely. I don't know why the Well he wouldn't have mentioned this to me. Mr. Dawson. But that 18 an assumption you have made rather than something he told you? Mr. Shimon. That's right. - Mr. Rhea. Subsequent to that, did Johnny ever talk with you about his involvement with Bill Harvey? Mr. Shimon. No, Johnny was told by hill farvey not to talk to me about anything involved with this because I was too close to Mahcu. Mr. Rhea. And Rosselli did not talk to you about anything: Mr. Shimon. Well, I told Johnny ax lony as he and Hauvey o- 1 raid took, you don't tell me anything. if 1 happen to vsr you something, say no. Mr. Postal. Were you usually aware, however, iff Johany was in town to Bee Wid) Marvey? . Mr. Shimon, Yuah, t always oicked him up at. the airport, -tOP SECRET |
1 made his resorvations, had dinner with him, took him to the play. We never came in without my knowing except that time they had him hidden and he was told to stay away. wm ne aes 2021 444 4008 Mr. Postal. Was the time they had him hidden after the; had taken care of the prosocution with the Department of Justice? Mc. Shimon. I don't know that. Mr. Poatal. Could it have been before? Mr. Shimon. Oh, no, no, no, becaune the FBI was questioning Johnny and harrassing him, se be couldn't have been an hiding. Mr. Postal. This is when? This is betore Pt wat tanes: of? Mr. Shimon. Yeah; yeah. Mr. Postal. And once it was taken «are of, he was put in hiding? Mr. Shimon. Yeah. Mr. Postal. Why was he put in hiding after the prosecution was taken care of? Mr. Shimon. fF have no ides. Once Harvey took over and Maheu was out, | had no kaow le dts no word, nothing about it. Mr. Postal. After Johnny came out of hiding oe When wae the next tame you saw him after that, do you know? low 7. Mr. Shimon. When he came out of hadimg, tt was a coun —tOP-SEERET—
of years, and tho next timo I saw him was when the FBI was fee INP) Y44 &OnF rousting him, and I met him in New York and then came in here and then we went to work bocauso I had te do a lot of work in « Boston for him, digging up a!) his family records and every: te thing. JI had the deportation case and then the Friar's case, and then I saw him constantly, every week, every month. ir. Voulal. So he was working for Warvey for -- at least, he was underground for a white? Mr. Shimon. Oh, yeah, a long time, o tong time. Mr. Postal, Did you ever talk to Jouhany later about what he had done with Harvey during that tames : “ir. Shimon. The next time To saw Johany we had so manny ‘ problems with Johnny about to be deported and = Jonany to be indicted, and I was running back and forth to Boston and ' 4 s- different places. That's our whole interest was solely in a getting Johnny out of trouble. The thing -- every time wots td talk about it, I kept saying, Johnny, now look, how about going to the CIA for some help on this thing, and he said, well, all right, anything. And 1 remember the specific tans he came in and he called Garvey from che coom at the Madisecs, and went out to Harvey's house and reported to me the next that Harvey said, don't worry, you'll never do oa ihay, fad yuarantee you, Tounderstamd Harvey really went out and trie. do a jou for him, Mtr. Dawson. You said: you reeabl the specifi time of t-
Do you recall the date? Mr. Shimon. 1! recall the specific conversation when we +1@ dren 207) $44 4006 4 . come in. Nc. Dawson. Let's try to get a date on that. . Mr. Shimon. The only way would be when he was arrosted as an alion, that would be a matter Of rocerdd. Mr. Dawson, This would have beon after the date of his arrest as an alien? =_ Me. Shimon. Yeah. Mr. Postal. Somewhere around $966, 19672 Mr. Shimon. When did he go to prisan? . Mr. Postal. ft don't know when he went to prison, 1 on believe he -- Mr. Shimon. '65, '66, somewhere aroun! -- Mr. Dawson. This was before he went to urison? -- Mr. Shimon. Yeah, yeah. He went cto prison for the Friar's Club. ’ ¢ paeateatelt teeter nmradonices ee ecnaaee ete i Mr. Dawson. The Friar's Club was, I think, tn 1968, Mr. Shimon, Well, first this thing -- the case was pending and we were fighting it all the Way, and then they broke the Friar's Club on him, ‘ Mr. Gawson., So it could welt have been ‘66, '67? Cee abd = Mr. Shimon, No, taates all right. 4 ‘ -FOP-SEERET—
me eg POT) 544 6080 Mr. Dawson. Let's go off the record. (Discuasion off the racord. Mr. Rhea. tlave you, prior to coming here today, have you talked with anyone aside from fr. Postal? Mr. Shimon. Nobody. Nr. Rhoa. You've talkad to nobody atout the substance of thia. Mr. Shimon. Nobody. I haven't aven talked to my wife about it. -1 didn't want to upset her. {'ve bBeon in a lot of trouble in my life. She wouldn't evan volunteer to drive Mr. Rhoa. Have you talked to any newspaper reporters about this? Mr. shimon. Ch, no, Sr. Rhea. ave you qiven anv reports to the newspapers about any of the details of what you've been talking tO us ah “er. Shimon. You mean since I talkeu ta him? 4r. Rhea. During the last month. “ce. Shimon. You're talkina about kudy Max's story Alin ot Sam. The Parade thing about Sam, Mr. khea. Yos. “rr. Shimon. Yeah, they wanted to tulk about Sam. Tasy called me up. “Mr. Khea. who is Max? “4c. Shimon. Rudy Max in Potomac “arpazine OF Parade “Magazine, you know, the little thing, the Little Naightliuaht FOP-SECRET
a 'Aeee 702) 4444000 ” about Sam, that's all. Mr. Rhea. What waro the circumstances of that? Mr. Shimon. It was in the August 24th odition. His boss is a follow -- he's a hall of a good friand of mine. Su called ma and said what he wants to know something about Sam. Wa i . know ha‘s been seeing you, and Jack Anderson filled him in on this. So 1 gave him a few little bits about it. Now, what the gist of the whole thing was, Sam was really--he wantad to know) how bad Sam was. The real story was they wantad to know if 1 thought CIA had killed Sam. And 1 said, how did you cvan core to think that that would be 30. And he aaid, becaune someto:-: t anced Colby the wuestion about Sam's death and Colle said we didn't have’ a thing to do with it, which is a silly answer, and that’s what brought it about. 1‘ Well, if I can find the article, I'll mail it to you. “Mr. Rhea. Well, I Save read the article. I was ust I 1 curious. ‘ir. Postal. “id you talk to anybody about the eventa wea transpired in tiiami when you wore down there with Maheu an tosaelli and San? “ir. Shiman., a. We just talked about Sam. They ot: wanted to know Sam, and Sam's backyround ani Sam this. She Watergate Committee went all over it with me, thougin. Mr. Postal. ALL over what? Mr. Shimon. The fellows who anterviewed me, and o'%
me. «Aree 207) 94464008 @ Maer 57 the record we kicked {t around. Thay wanted a background on Mahau. {A brief recess was taken.) Portal. I'd like you, if you know a man by the name Woolston-Smith. Shimon. You mean up in tew York City? Poatal. Uh-huh. Shimon. lo has an agency, Confidential Investigations? my daughter worked thore. Postal. Can you tall us about that operation? Shimon. Woll. it all started years ago. Waltor Clancy was a ew York detective when 1 wan a young detective. They used to loan me to other jurisdictions because I wan supposed to be an expert in certain ficlds, and one year thay loaned me to the State of Florida. T was aoMilami City Detective. Deputy Sheriff of Dade County and State Investigator for the race tracks. Walter Clancy was also selected and Jack Warren of Chicago. We were the trio.’ “Ow, Walter's time, his 20 years were ui in the Pepartnussnt . Ne wanted to oven an agency an: called m- about assistance, advice and what to do, and we, together, crew up what ha put together, an excellent agency, made gone fHaney with it. Ile had @ retired policewoman. They gat wood pubticity and goo! cases. in later years ne kept on Arring- different follows from different countries. Ani Walter dropoed dead, and a fellow
‘ a e e . c 58 named Joc, one of his employees, bought the business out. And I was up thore and I saw Smith, I think, the snacond time. Smith ia supposed to be a foreign ayant. Ile puts ona lot of phonuy stories. Now, my daughtar was working for an art company, purchasing. Sho‘s quite an artist, and she was doing the purchasing, and these people had necurity on their business, and Smith happened to run into her, and he said ta your Dad the inspector and she said yos, and from thon on nothing would do but he'll have to qo to work for them. And she was excited enough to think that dt might be qood,. And then they were use cs and ne she went to work fer them, and they were urmaing her to get information that Eo mat have about a lot of things, and they diel raally try to work the Wateryate on a lot of angles, and they put out a lot of bad stories on the Watergate aa being authentic. He's wrona. { just told my daughter, out, get out of there. Mr. Postal. What storics was he wrony about, to your k now ledye? ttr. Shimon. tie was planting stories about tecCord. They planted -*° oh, 1 forget, offhand -- and there was another fellow that used to do Nobby Kennady's political work up in ew York. ile war foeding him some poison, | foraet his Haine, !oynow t cid a job for him its Detroit, Gut he te supposed to ba -- and f uot this From another gource -- fur’ Supposed CoO be an English agent of some kine. —+0-P-SECRET
Ife's on somebody's payroll because he's not making the moncy in the business, and ha says hon has QO rich wife. That's netther here nor there. But everybody I talked to, my contacts in the field aay he's strictly poison, what 14 your daughter doing there, including some FBI quys that had to go in there and ask a question about something. They said, whoa. So I just told her to get out of there, and sho did. Mr. Postal. Thoy smalled a rat ag noon as they walked the place? Mr. Shimon. I think thay wore dorm: a background on him, don't know. And whan they saw my daugh’ er in there, they erin’ think that she shoulc! be there. Hut tates were working ner, I could tell by the things that she would call me and ask noe. Mr. Postal. Things line wnit? Mr. Shimon. Not pertaining to government stuff. leads he wanted people, hackgrounds on somehody, freebie stuf. There was somethina clae [ waa trying to think. One of the partners skivped with all of the mone. Mr. Postal. Do you Know what his mane was? Mr. Shimon. There was aneth@r partner with tilson, an’ he gkhipped and gianed a lot of bad paper, and tie went Out am: Smith couldn't prosecute him. Actually, the aquy satd yo anual, forget it.  Heaerar ts mot hoa wer chee abaart obty ‘re. Postal. To your Snowledde cues Hob Maheu have any connection to smith?
Me et mee S97) 144 4008 Shimon. tte'dian't when T knew him, Mr. Postal. What about Nallino? Mr. Shimon. I don't know about Nellino. No, 1 know bob wouldn't have any connection to Smith becauso a lot of things Bob wanted from time to time in Naw York I would have done throuahn Walter Clancy and Walter Clancy's succansor, so he never got a chance to meet Smith, and I did moat of it on the phone. And my daughter wan working there, I might fly up and catch her for lunch, you know. Mr. Portal. Do you know a guy named Al Lonnick? springs? “Mr. Shimon. Yo, but the name ia familiar. Po miaht nave heard 3%. fetsy Eives there, Johany neevis a lot of tine there when he's on the West Coast, and he bnows a lot of vrarrte tn Palm Sorinus. He mictht have mentioned tonnick to me. The name is so odd I think it strikes a bell, that's all. '’ac. Postal. Teli me sonethina, if Johnny and Sam were song to communicate, ia it poessibly that they would use a Cutout, somebovse as an antermediary when they would cacs @acth: other? Mr. Shimon. Johnny and Sam haven't seen or tabked to eas other for ten years. Mr. Postal.  ilow about back when? “rl oatmon, Vat baek, that woube ter bone Wirectis on phon, you know, what the nell {sy the organisation.
wrens ree 7071 346 cope 3 3 Ld ce -) Veyas, tho Strip. Mr. Postal. Knowledge, to act Mr. Shimon. boys. Thoy don't Mr. Poatal. Shimon. Postal. Shimon. awful sad shit, about him and than suddenly get wateh Wim ane Cal Neva. Juez, jocz. listen to that's one weekend I ttall, anybody could havo bean. Did they ever use women, to the banat of your ag a talephone condult? I'll let you in on a little secret on thone trust women from here to here. Bo they ever uso thom? No, no. What about Sinatra? ‘le should ba hustling pool. This is an T mean, thin iss disappointing to read in 4 froom with the bum ant Him, and then.loot what he dad at th: mMisnerd, I'm alad I inissed that weekend, Ar. Postal. Me. Shimon. Mr. Postal, Mr. Shimon. Sas was doing, galts ven Sam, be identified with big shots and mobsters, [ aa a@ lack of 1*h1 guy’. You know, puttinad on a show, ass with an and vet, security. Ue get This WaAB -- when hea was -- Sar was there. What the hell, what brought the heat on was whos shoving «wo Sottle up some Audience, Come on, this isia bud quv. Rotten, it's a funny thing, he is so anxious to think this come- likus to be astentified with som: the mob atter vou. This igo what he sate te “the head of the racing commission, you know, when they were PE er oot ee a Ye eet ee my ee nee new
wuing to take his bLicense away, T'li get the mob after you. Whan we want to @inner the night of our trip to Sian, Sam and Johnny and 1, you know, we arrived @arly at Maxines, so in came Frankic with all his yany, walked up to Sam, on, I finally got you. You've git to hear this. So, anyway ho walked up and hello. hello, and suddenly Sam, purposely, and changed his ring finger that night. Johnny wanted to woar his ring, and ne said, go ahoad, because Johnny was goint to meot a girl later, some doctor'u wifo. So Sam naid, I'll pur on that ring that Goddamn Sinatra qave worm it. $0 he putsK re on and Sinatra said, Be you finally the ring. te said, I've been checking up on vou. So you finally put st on. Just like a little girl, ani coutd:’* help but, her, are you two aueer for each other? And I thorn Sam would drop dead. Ile got to laughing, He walked awa. said, he's that crazy Guinca son of a bitch, he gave ma a rang. Iie yives everybody a rin:, you know, he leves cher, folle in love with them. ‘fou knows! said, look out for aim. He rwavn, look out, don't Opeth Your mouth, PAS cpur de Luciano up. tare? Lucky sneaked back into Vuba,. you “now. Lucky was deported, sneaked back, was working out of Suna, Hhomebouy told ham, cucky., you know, ne wanted and imeet Luchy. Soo he nrouuht Lucky ao uresent, a solid Case, to bucky with love from Frankie or sasmethine.  ‘Pne:
63 showed it to evaryhodty around New York and said I'm going to meet Lucky, you know, the big mouth. So tha word went, you know, they went right with him. He sort of walked right in Lucky's room and gave him the case and the cops walked right into the room riqht after him and busted him. So after that, you know, so Sam said look out for this guy. but anytime he got into troubla he always would be flaunting my friond Sam, and he had a lot of peopls tntimidated that thought that, you know, Sam was hin big boy. Mr. Portal. Woll, don't Ltoa facet that Sinatra and San had Susinesa interests together? “Mr. shimon. Well, not onl; fam, Pothink everybody tat Nad any monev invested in the so-called Cvnieate all finance: Sinatra to put himoon his feet. Sure, there's no question about that Lecause Ae was stone broke. Sudden!ty ke ant in the recording business and they bought his way sack into the mova. you know. They bought him the parts. And in fact, you Know, that’s why, for instance, why Jonnny went away. You know, he wAsS working with the unions, with Bielo!t!. Those unions were running the show. They were telling the covie producera what to do and how tc do it. “r. Postal. The unions were, 4v. Shimon. Yeah. Come on, “rr. Postal. Were the mons running tle: umtenu? Were thes financing these unians or were the untons firanciad the mot?
64 Mr. Shimon. The untons had a lot of mob members. Johnny wan in one of the untons. io was an anforcer. You know, he wont to prison. Dieloff wont to prison first. Thay lot him off, Bieloff squealed and tho other sevon wont to prison. That wae it. Mr. Postal. - What about Sam. Did he have any tias to tof fa? Mr. Shimon. No, no. I would have known that because, sec, before Hoffa wont to prioon I naw a lot of Jimmy. In fact, ! did some work for Jimmy's lawyors. In fact, I did some stuf! for Jimmy. Mr. Postal. What about Moa Dalitz? Do you know him? Shimon. Moe, IT met Moe, yeah. Postal. He was a friend of Sam'n, wasn't he? “Mr. Shimon. Yeah, formerly a frien! of Sam's. Mr. Postal. They had a break? Mr. Shimon. Sam broke with all of tham. Sam broke wit’: all of them. When Sam cut out for Mexico, he cut out all o! the things. See, there was a qreat deal of -- (Discussion off the record.) Mr. Shimon. ff had a long talk with Sam, You «now, 0 had some problems with his estate. You know, ho head a big estate, you know, ant Ne had ald kimids of prob lems with the employed, and nu said Look, why don't vou come on dawn an. spend @& tow weeku, help reo utra ighiten up, Give ma SOM: Hecur st
E things, you know. I've got to gat this thing organized down there. It ian't bad but it's gatting out of hand. And I sali, +e meres 207) 4444005 © wall, why don't you give it up and go back to Chicago, and he - said, I‘m all through with all of that, Jon, This has baen over a yoar ago. ite said, I don't oven want to see Chicago again. Anz the only reason he wont back to Chicayo is thoy kidnapped him and brought him back, took him out of his tnd, put him on a pair of pants, took him across the hordar and hit him with a subpoona, because he called me and told me about it. fir. Postal. Well, what about the old days? vobby Kennady came in, two people he went after were Sam and Jimmy Noffa, Mr. Shimon. Well, he went after Gan necause Sam was Supposed to he the Godfather of the whole deal, and Sinatra was identified so closely with Sam at the time, Mr, Postal. Well, why would he qo after San if Sinatra was Close to him? “4r. Shimon. When you qet to San YOu “ee to Sinatra, you get the whole bunch, Me. Postal. Wetl  odigdh Hobby want to cde to Sinatra? or, Shimon. Well, let's qo of f the record. (Miacussion of f the record.) Mr. Vosntal. Tothink we should out this on the rocord., Mr, nnatmon. Hobbs “onnedv's gister. vou know, 18 Marries to Peter Lawtord, Sie AS a swinger. Shp ly alleded to sleep:
oO a eres F071 $84 6008 eround 4 lot of guys. Peter, of courso, its identified an a Jouble-gaited guy, so it didn’t mako any differance anyway. They've separated now. Frankia cultivated her and was sleeping around with ‘ior, had a porfact in, and during the campaign, if you remember, tne Kennedy campaign, he was -- hore was Sinatra working in all diractions, working for the. Kannadys. Tho idea was once Kanne! won, Sinatra was going to ba able to taka care of all of the boys. And this was his full control, sloeping with the dauuhter, bleeping with his sister. ntay in there. And the Kennedys accepted Frankie, They had him up thes > with him and they were inviting Ram to the White House, and oh bov, what a qreat Cellow. But the FUL had a lot af jones tapnoed. Vegas, Chicaqo, and »retty soon they're Near tna conversations between Frankie and Sam about, hey, when are going to «wet something dona for the boya, you know. And the:. they're talking about the sister, and in not nice terms, you know, ‘i've yot to sleep with this goddamn bitch until 1 oaee somethin going. VYhese tapes were played back to Bobby and Bothy wont . wow, and overnight you Saw Sinatra out. You remember, and no more “hite House, nothina. ‘tr. Postal. Well that wags late, chat wags like ttarcn oo: Shimon. Yeah, but he didn't vet to see those tapes
67 until thon. Dobby was Attorney General whan he finally got to hearing some of these tapes and sooing transcripts. Nowaver, he did get the informacion, and all of a nudden he shut Sinatra off. Mr. Postal. Well -- Mr. Shimon. Woll, they found out that Sam, well, not Sam alone -- Sam at that time wan tha top man. Thoy were goin’ to run the big show and have full control with the blessing of tho Attornay Genoral. That's what they were shooting for. Mr. Postal. This was Sam in Chicago, Mr. Shimon. Sam, Moe, and averybody involved. And all of the fellows that had an interest tn the west, Mr. Postal. bo you think Hoffa was into this? « ‘ e a < t Mr. Shimon. tloffa wasn't into that. ‘loffa wasn't into circle. Hoffa got in into the other circle that qot the Caesar's lalaca. Now, that’s another crowd entirely. Now, those, what the hell are the names of the people that are the suspects in the lloffa case? I did a job for them, Giacalonis. The Giacalonis tvad no, nothing ta do with Sar. “ar. Postal. Well, almost as s00n as Bobby came in, tim records indicate that Hobby Kennedy went after Sam, Mr. Shimon. That bs as soon as he tound out what was goin? OW Over tia telephone wires. Sr. Tostal. So, ao other words, rt must have been alin
me ares PH) $44 £009 immodiately upon becoming Attorney Ganera) .. Mr. Shimon. Somebody had to inform him that ha was beiny that hey wore using his family and his sister in order -- anu Sinatra wao carrying, you know, he was yoing to run the whole show because he's got the sister in the bad. Mr. Postal. Well, why would they hold on to Sinatra once they found out about the stuff that thoy wore saying on the tolephone? Mr. Shimon. Sinatra had all the money in his name. Mr. Postal. Well, t understand that, but they certainly had enough money that they could have supported the sister. why would Yobby Kennedy neen nis hands off Stnatra? ‘rr. Shimon. fe can't get anything out of him. talked on Sinatra? Mr. Postal. They still hHad him ata friend. Mr. Shimon. They did not. They shut him off and didn't him in the White House anymore. Mr. Postal. But that was later. “r, Shimon. Yeah, but they had tel do it grastualbly. Nr. Pastal. Coulee it reve been something else that prevented them trom shutting anatra oft until later? Mr. Shimon. It could Rave been, huc the story ! rao otne way tim telling at te pou. JPhis is the way Pogotort, and thik was -- again the stery warm that Sinatra ane Avs big mouth.
Mr. Postal. Okay. We havo Sinatra with a big mouth, an: we've got him on the phone taps or the buys, and he's saying thinsa about Nobby Kennady's sister, ani you know, maybe Nopuy comes in, and he already knows about Sam obviously. Sam's a biq wuy Bobby's qolng to go after the rackets. Mr. Shimon. And he's supposed to cool Robby out. ‘4x. Poatal. Sinatra? Mr. Shimon. Yeah. “ir. Postal. Ant so Bobby hoars that on the tolaphone teas that Sinatra is talking to the mobs saying ['m aoint to coo} sebby Kennady out? “Mp Shamon. We gaya, Pimoin, d'roin, he says, tive sister. T've got the family. on, while we were at the Fontainbleg, Sinatra’s time ys up, You know, his nunber of appearasces, and he calls down gays hey, when are we qoing to get tocether, to Sam, and Sam says. well, we're kind of busy. a oNe gaya, vou know, t'm ae at the white House tomorrow sorning and ft want toc with vou. And Sam says, well, it's rmpoasnsihke pecause we! qo vome things welve got ta do, he Sam sate, om, to hebl with: tuecWnite Mouse, | oan “ there nytime. I'd) wait for vou. Trnat is how sure ie Of frlimnee dt. Me. Poutadb. sun gdaad this? Np. oNnomon. fo, ba, Prank sara vain
Mr. Postal. All right, now, thin it now in March 1961. Mr. Shimon. Yas, Mr. Postal. Okay. Mr. Shimon. lie was supposad to he there that morning, s7> he automatically says okay, he'll cancel it and he can yo there anytime, he'll wait to sea Sam. Mr, Postal. Okay. So either Nobby Kennedy either hanna’! had the logs or read the logs yot or there is another raason. Mr. Shimon. At that time he still is welcome itn the White douse, Mr. Pontal. Right. And if our information as correct he wan weleome aon the Whita House fer another vear. Wt. Shamon, Yer. “rr. Portal. About that time the followin: vear was wh: made the break. Mr. Shimon. It was less than a year. They were wlreawty nj Aim out. They dicnatt weet oa sudden break, You fee ino mane, rt toon ther -- now, fOr anstance Vow Devbite was eovered for a year, so wad Nudy'w at the besert tr. ynoMmaare! now, a fone tame testore sobiy wan oi office, tine tetore “Mr. Roover let harm see any tine, Camembuar ot. Poutal. Is that right? Dlirtwean. ety Cheon ob, Vostal.  Wwedlh, reabby. Dhamogy, Webb, Chere Was a terrabde Seadldiog teetwees.
Kennedy and lIfloovor, Mr. Postal. From tho start? Mr. Shimon. From the beginning. Wobby did not like Hoover and didn’t want him din thero. leony before he evan tonr office, and they wero that far apart. and I can see where Hoover had a hall of a lot of atuff and didn't give it to hin. tf he had given it to him from the beginning -- I think he just let it build up, build up, anc finally walked in and threw it at him to embarrasa him.
“WARD ASI Shimon 9/12/38 tape @ f ll j u ;, oe to look in and make a littla study of tho rivalry, That's the kind of guy floover was, you know. You've j * * he Soatility hatwaan Hoover and Nannady was -- Mr. Postal. Wall, I want to davalop this a little bit. "After all, if wa talk to people at Justica, wa get ona side, ‘ . jae we talk to pnople at the Bureau, wo gat the other side, | ttr, Shimon. Well, this ia the problan and you don'+ ; 98 it unetl you talk to people after they leave the Dureau. “That's the trouble. You'ra talking ta a guy at CIA, Soma qiys Lwilt talk to you about the CIA, soma enyn will not talk to { i vou abous CTA raqardlasa. Stell, ‘hat'm what vou det, Mit Toren. thin, Do hnaow ant Toheardt 4*£ -- Noovar hated Sobby Ranraty ant Rebby Sen : hated Hoover, really hatad loovar. ‘tr. Postal, Odd you aver hear that “over kept inforcaty fror Robby? tr. Shimon. on, he ‘dint’ tell Tol anvthing unless Robles calfdettetd fe, Mr postal. So then Tetta eau, for crude, that Reeatiar of 190% San nade cartatn mbetenent: weet onau tan had been talking about tilts and Castrea, aes ayn Manvar haw the CTA was or was mee tevolvet tr widest ye Mout t he hase fads Saynne te? . . te “Sdmom. Gee a knoe, B10 6 yt Stree, 4, fe ewengten, B.C. 20001 Hyg ed) 3 fo soaudtela ‘hover
WARD & PAU Pa od tre Wahoo AU 8 at Steet OE bootstrap Dobhy? “rp, Ghimen. Tt think Yoover would have done anything te ambarrasa tha CIA hacausa thera was a honttitey thera coo. ‘taover would Siave moval, 39 vould have moved haavan and earth to embarrare CTA iff Kennedy would pormit it. ‘tr. Ponwtal. Which would he rather yat, CIA or Kennady? “Ir, Shimon. Mall, you saa, ha couldnt: pubtiely go out aftar CTA uniaan Mennedy agrasd to i? . You know that. SAfear all, “ananedy var nef{ti hogs. So he war caught heewann tun neanta hia hatad., Tats she adminll Mp Rental, Ne you sever heard o anything elae that cleher Sdratea a: the mote bat oon “Venne OO ‘te, TMdtvee, year bh oe Ge unm tuet arin) ehina, sea, colar aug with bis raiser, ane af eourte mt a Leougdeac ant cians to even befare fae van eas rreaicen’ Ainatra ant Sir . tonto nurse inv were Cornianhed Vaten Taye usa the belt! wheat i'n agothinc. ‘la font) cine wise dda with fhe qaten, tissner, clancis mae ates? Meyte ad. tra get . soy *erri' liven. aga yeh N
go near Sinatra, ‘r, Postal, Well, if wa place the timo when Jinatra © Iwas cut aut of the Nennady thite Itousa ar ifarch of 1962, and \ te ~ «Kannedy cama in, of course, January, 1961, 90 Lt's abont a {t | year and thran or four months, and df wa say, for exanpla, that Sinatra was still in with the White tlousa up until say the summer of ‘61 -- tr. Shimen. We must have baen because he wan doing ‘white Hours in March of ‘61. ‘tr, Postal. Okay, ano for months after that ba i medat tight, we'll say. tre Shimer. Val), To think what coatre acting asi in thea vere makin he lod, making @he taona, nuttine topather ore Halt of a hta ntory, ‘Mr, Postal. Thin ia tha Aureau? ‘r. Shimon. Sure. Thay had -= thay had ot Vike a apidar wah, “rp. Pnntal, To your knowladan cto Sha furan Jue vanes? tte Wy fan hee wteey rat etn te . Uveryles ‘. . Yate mr, Were gon De ‘rr. Pontal., = 6s i coneeadvalils that Uieov-r vould hav mee padtbenl atvantade? Retene. TQ, nat Maaver oaraenalte. 210 8 ay Weert + F “pe ounaae ad, T'm not saying Hoover personally.
’ SER ERS ae eS ohe ae ‘te, Shimon. 1 think ha would hava. _ aan Mr. Poatal., Pid you evar hear about any {ncidonts? vr 4 oy _ Mr. Shimon. No, but infarencas, rumors, vou know, like 4 avery hig quy you hear a lot of atorian, an’ what the hall, 5 ude you'ro not interestad in than, you don't care. Yau know, 6 in avary walk of life and everything you can ait around and ? | hear a lot of thinan, an you know, and you have to retain i 8 roms af tham, foraat soma of them, justi’y some of them, an! Nw 9  quned ty why they are baing told, you know. The oldar you We) t 27 'aet, *he more you haar, tha more you dineeunt. ovrétieulart: las PI | . ‘ ji baboaat tte peopla, vrominant veaple, and vert. that do nak- a < “ee ‘ tsooothatvnes and osants that da maka a datoaf Cesta, ehorata a : 1 Te nett gar Moavar age epamfon, na cuaatiee stare fe, s . . ie ‘r, Portal. Toanm just creiae te understand iff Hoover . p20 nal nonethinq an the “Verne tea, Nav vende tine fe? . c& lb 4t . i ; be 1a “ir. Ghdmor. ‘se coubtat vary wells: (4 while Jack t~ . - waa Pragident. te tiene! tiaee Sat hind of pier, 1 5 a Sea, Fae cad om fearlera one, vou lint, Te WARM KAT ORT Ue : - v c . fe, Mamtadl, ota tins 7 f 2 i fr. Shteer, Vea, ttatocsa iis pecert vedas, £ . “ry. Badeal, You umiadts: Sear abaut Cans tein p the O1G Fant treet SE
; ; “700 | wert NO mentee 14 BIO dwse | | play with because whon he pulled the string on you, it was | tight. Bobby would threaten you. Jack wouldn't threaten you. : Jack would do it to you. Thera's the difforence. You know, 1 came originally out of Massachusetts, all my friends, my brother-in-law, you know, they know theso people like the chief of police in Hyannisport, remember Jack -- what's his name -- the state policeman was the old man's bodyguard. I used to go to Hyannisport and spend all the woekends and hear all the gossip about what's going on in the Kennedy household. I could have told you every morning what want on the night before. _ this is how I got to know tho different charactors as you talk about them. Jack was a strony, deep, silent guy, really moreso than people realize. Bobby, sure Bobby would holler, scream, threaten you, kick you, anything. You know, Jack wouldn't do that. We'd just pull that string and you're through. And Teddy, of course, I don't know. I don’t go up there anymore. I don't hear anymore. I don't go to Swampscot. I don't go to Ilyannisport. I guess I could. Mr. Postal. Off tho record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. Postal. I would like to thank you for coming down. Me. Shimon. Well, I know your job. I've worked on a lot of jobs as an inveatlgator, and when you've got a job to FOP-SECRET—
B10 Oat Set 30 Wem OC 20008 ye do you've got to tal): to people, and I know how ALffieule f+ ig, 1 naver want to make {¢ hard for a quy to Acconplish what he har &o do, I just want you to understand that. T alwava belfave {n helping the other guy do his job hacaune a‘lot of people “ean do it to ma. ‘ir. Postal, Well, you've heen vary cooperative and we raallv anpractate f4, “r.Shimon, Well, ha only thing -- rtm Sorry, it's fon bad Santa dead. thatta Alt, That ahaken me No, Sam hat Ronet Sing So tal} ma, but they qot hin os fara he eoull ‘alt ‘tr. Postal. Perkana van adene APS AA ayedlada enae, I inew you told me that sad salad Vou shertly before he MLae, “r. Shimon. ta called me athens four or Civer uoake See Ne vwas “ilVacd and 1 was on my wav oul of the constr she mam’ morn dse:. Me was Always laughin, th. Mivave starter conversatdern with oa laugh anc a We. Ne waves, eet, ihe oa: wan Tete ® Vou hrew, van cst oe Amt Tomadel, velt, tn fact, tin Ponies torerrer soreis anc he ade, are you going to be available or are you going to bo tiod up? Can you gat loose at any timo? Canoe Toots at ane tiene Yuasa! Yomadt, SNOW, OF you cee Lnedta ant sere hore. You brow,
in ah May a get Prene (Arce WARD 8 Pawn Oc. 29008 O10 6 nt Steet, SE) tree a 10} hanstt geen or talked to Johnny for tan «cara 2 a bs) i) ? 8 9 1: ie ae. Mz Hae sald, okay, welll gat tadether, bee a 78 havo more waye of qatting around than 1 hava, and you row T have plenty of apace. I can alwayn take care of you dn tha country, H And he saya, T know. that's the nunbar thera un in the country? Give 1¢ to ma again. ta maid, ntay loose, we'll} get togethor. I have nomathing to talk ta you about. Mr. Postal. Mid he aound urgent? Mr. Shimon. ‘lo, very <-> you know, well, how's Jaannt-, what's qoing on, what do you hoar from Johnny? Toa, 4 Nisae 6 ane ob. Vanape st pee on I ans, What's happening to Johan's anaes, en. i nT ead, ot oenineta Cinad ove shawty ee. aan ‘on'* know, . w rt ry. rr a lt Of soursa, the nase “fie toy hie Abe tari cs ee Nts I eatevintan, he wan dead, Sue £8 he ware aroun tye cet ee] al ' ta yeu roe, cada, Ha woubl, Tete soa hat, nene vet fmacine Johnny will tals to yer, im* for years he wouldn't talk to anybody. Tha raco is over. Ur, “sstal. Okay. Thank you. CMeartines, at Sid atetaeth el ta be es iv ost i: { Ybovecneneqanad matter vase coneta tet iy