4 4 | City on the outside, aS~a non-official cover asset for Winn o 2 : Scott. Ann Goodpasture, I believe, had a lot of contact with : 3 | 'I very seldom saw I had nothing i | @ . 4 | to do with him operationally. | A § ! Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what his responsibilities | 5 4 were? | 5 1 Mr. Shaw. I believe his responsibilities had to do with S 8 dealings with the Mexican government, liaison responsibilities. ; 3 I think George was used by Winn because George had good contacts = Te) in the Ministry of Interior, which. would have been sort of the | : 1 equivalent of the Department of Justice here and out of that | S i2 | Ministry came, for example, the man who became President of | a] : i3 Mexico. He was the station assetyicontact, not agent. : : id Mr. Goldsmith. You mentioned earlier. Mr. : E 1s ! jis that correct? . . | z 1s Mr. Shaw. ‘Yes. ; 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know. why had an inter-_ 2 ig ; est in Eusbio Ascue? - | in 4 : 19 | Mr. Shaw. No, I do not believe it was. I think it was | 5 20 i Teresa Proenza. I do not think he had any interest in Ascue. | cane 2! Mr, Goldsmith. Who was the individual who had the : oy a : . ‘ & @2/ 22 | interest in Ascue? 22 Mr. Shaw. I do not know. I said if it had been before + my arrival, I would suspect it was He was carrying ' the ball down there and was responsible for that sort of 4 a af | ih a a HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 5?
ie a ro tre Ou 2HO2% €2027) S54~-2945 .c, “ (a) ry VASHTEMCTON , REPORTYES BUCLDING, We c 300 7TH STREDT, ee? tos 4h 8 q 1-52 activity. I do not know that he did, but if it happened in, say, late '62 or somewhere in there, it probably would have d tl been Tom who would have done that. | Mr. Goldsmith. What was position at the Embassy? Mr. Shaw. He was not at the Embassy then. He was at | | ann the Embassy back in 1965. I. do not know, for a number, of ‘year ; | At that time, Charlie hdd qone back to Headquarters and he a. | was involved in Cuban operations from Headquarters, the detail ' | of which were notmmade known to me. Whether they were made | known to Winn Scott or Dave Phillips or others, I do not know. | Mr. Goldsmith. : When would he have made an effort, if he did, to recruit Teresa Proenza? Mr. Shaw. .I am not sure that he ever tried to recruit. I am merely saying that he had a lot of interest. »I do not ‘think anybody ever tried to recruit her. If they did; they | were wasting their time.. Mr. Goldsmith... Why were they wasting their time? MY. Shaw. She was a pretty tough nut. I never saw ~~ Lf | I canwremember -- 1 do not. remember any vulnerability of | Teresa Proenza. Mr. Goldsmith. What was the nature of ee | | interest in her? Mr. Shaw. I do not know. Some Cuban operational interest, i ‘ maybe trying to get some information from her through a third MP ANS
Se oe StS wa Eke 8 ar 1-53 a party. I have no idea. . . . a 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. When did he spend time in Mexico City that Hi he would have had an opportunity? . t.> Mr. Shaw. He visited Mexico City quite often. = : Mr. Goldsmith. Even though he was not stationed down : , | there, he visited often? : g 7 | Mr. Shaw. That is correct. He madé trips in and out of e / Mexico City. | | “ . Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know what Teresa Proenza's position ‘ : ¢ | was at the Cuban Embassy or Consulate? | | g i Mrs Shaw. f think by that time she was out of the Embassy, = \ . i % 12 || was she not? I do not remember. She left. | . | ‘> : 14 | Teresa Proenza was a Mexican. She was not a Cuban. And | : ae: am under the impression that by the time I got there, | xv fT . | = |; | Teresa had left the Embassy. I may be wrong. I think that ! : 1. | she was involved. in cultural activities. | = | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether Mexican intelligence E 1s [would have had any penetration agents at the Cuban Embassy or | : | consulate? | 5 0 | Mr. Shaw. I think they would have tried. I do not know 2 [how effective Mexican intelligence was. I did not deal with | 224 It would be assumed that they made every attempt, the i 4 24 | Cubans were gradually removing Mexicans from their employee, 23 | from the Cuban Embassy. I think it highly unlikely that the 3 “St 4 a ‘| WW 509455 Docld: 32277214 Page 54
REPORTERS BULEDING, WASETNGTON, B.C, 28024 (202) S54-2345 We S. A aw a ~ “a HW 50955 MO res] ra) Pb ant sy SO oy oO ry How Ay so Ge Eada 8 1-54 a | . . : a | Mexican government, given its position, was the only government 4 i i im the Western Hemisphere which maintained relations with 1 i i | Cuba, would have been -- it would have been highly unlikely for 1 i i them to have tried to pitch a Cuban national. On the other hand, I think it would have been likely, | . . | and would have been expected of them, to have tried to find out from any Mexican working in the Cuban Embassy what was going one What this comes down to, of course, is gardenérs. and secretaries. Mr. Goldsmith. Why do you make that distinction between a Cuban national and a Mexican? Mr. Shaw. I make that distinction because of the flap |; potential If the Mexicans had attempted to pitch a Cuban and the Cuban had not accepted that pitch and had reportdéd it to his superiors, the Mexican Foreign Office then would have had a problem with the Cuban Foreign Ministry. Mr. Goldsmith. Of course, the Mexican government was also taking a risk by being involved in the liaison operation or. the Agency as well.. Mr. Shaw. One could assume that they had measured their | risk, yes, certainly. There is an element of risk in every operation. Do not get me wrong. I do not know whether they hdd anything going or not. I would assume, just based on my experience, that they would not have tried to pitch Cubans,
1-55 i that they would have tried to exert subtle coercion on | 2 | Mexicans working there to report in the interest of Mexican | 1 | national security on what is going on in that Embassy. | ‘| Mr. Goldsmith. Who would have been in a position to know | 2 ; las the Mexican government. successfully penetrated the Cuban | : 6 Embassy or consulate? | | S 5 | Mr. Shaw. | 3 ~ | S 2 | The chief of chiefs of the Mexican service or services. | ~ i g 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Any American? : 0 Mr. Shaw. Not that I know of. | Z | Mrs Goldsmith. Do you know whether there was any coordina- = ' $ | tion between the telephone tap operations and the photo o z 1 | operations. ©-For example, if a conversation of interest came | _ 4 Z uf up on the tap operation, would the people monitoring the call | = il : 1s be able to contact through an intermediary the photo bases | 2 i = 1g | to warn them or indicate to them that someone is coming of | F ir interest? : ! 1 2 8 Mr. Shaw. It is my understanding that such a system did ! A : 19 | not exist, and I do not believe that the guys monitoring the é 20 | telephone tap intercept bases were made aware of photograph | acme, 2! | coverage. ! a | | i wo However, I would assume that a man running a technical | 22 'operation, if he heard something exciting on the line, as | ; ‘ | opposed to a tape*several days later, would notify his case i : i t Oc ARE 2s | officer right away and then it might be possible for the case HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 56
el = EY = 7 N t a ; ws 8 ~ os : oS a 7 Neel “ 3 aQ = ~ . a ra Y a - 19 a és = tt par i a “ = “ he ne ‘ o 5 i 14 a tf = ta a - 6 A ie > = : = 4 > wots 2 18 a = 19 ~ Cc = 20 31 OS Re ae 2 a “d an 4a mG 7 4 aa HW 50955 Docld: i> ees AS a he wo da bY aS Mw. 1-56 | officer, assuming a quick reaction capability, to crank up the people at the photo house to take pictures. This swas in | the most perfect of all worlds. Usually things did not work that way and you end up out onsthe street, in the middle of i the night two days later, contacting whoever it is taking ntonagma Mr. Goldsmith. Do you. know whether the Mexico City | station ever obtained a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald? | Mr. Shaw. To my understanding, they did not. I never | saw anything down there that looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. - Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever hear an allegation that | | Charlotte Bustos, at CIA Headquarters in Washington, found a | photograph. of Oswald, or sgomeéne she thought to be Oswald, | in the Headquarters files shortly after the assassination? -Mr. Shaw. No, I have never heard such a story. Knowing Charlotte -- not knowing her well, but having known her over the years, I would assume that had she found such a thing she would have rung a big loud bell and say, hey, look what I found. Mr. Goldsmith. With regard’ to“the. photo: coperation,. ‘let. | ase “assume. for a. Moinent that. you.come.across a picture of / interest. Did you have any way of determining on what day and. i { | approximately what time the. picture would have been taken? Mr. Shaw. Very definitely. } Mr. Goldsmith. How would you have done that? ; ALSERSON REPORT! 322977214 Page 57 oo
De! ee c. weagss wee, ae eined | ol ft unt oF | Mr. Shaw. The photographs were squared off and were ih) annotated. We knew the day. We knew, usually, morning or td afternoon, a.m. or p.m. Sometimes you could judge by the © 4 | sequence. = 7 Furthermore, sometimes the actual time of the person going 5 in and going out was actually annotated, if the person operating S | was operating manually, he would no doubt, the guy with the ; | red-checkered Hawaiian shirt went in at 10205, He would note’ : | s | that in a little log. . | : ‘a I do not know whether he would note it on the photograph | S i 2 7 or submit the log with the number keyed to the log in the | 2 2 | photograph. ‘Quite often we knew to the minute when a. person | : i a 2 3 fin a photograph . came in or went out or stood in front or walked = is | Mr. Goldsmith. I see. > 4 | : te | So, to your knowledge, there were photo-production logs | : 7 | that could be checked? | : : fa | Mr. Shaw. To my knowledge, such logs did exist, yes. | ‘3 | whether the logs were kept after the information was noted on 39 |the photograph, on the back of the photograph or wherever it | 1} /}was noted, I havecno idea. 2p = 23 4 The photographs, quite often came in the form of 35 mm. i 22 icontact strip prints and then blow-ups of a number of those. 4 I recall =- I had not thought about it all these years, i i 28 ‘put usually you knew when a guy, you certainly knew when he went QepRey wei: ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 456
1-58. in on Tuesday morning, the 16th of May, whatever that date i j i ! | | was. . ! bb Mr. Goldsmith. Who would make the notations on the back of ub ire the photograph or contact print as to the time? t | ! i ! t | f ! | | \ | | ? 5 i . Mr. Shaw. In our case, I believe it was the man taking a 5 the photographs because he took the photographs, developed = 7 || the photographs, printed them and turned them over. x a Mr. Goldsmith. If he were to put the time on, he would ow | 3 9 | have to go to his log and see what the time was and then make | a i | dd = '¢ | the entry? . . | = i! Mr. Shaw. Right. He probably made a little notation to < I, ; , ; ; , = +2 | himself like I mentioned, the bright shirt or something. Then | 8 : i = 13 i he would recognize that person in the photograph and make that = 4 H = = 11 | notation. = i = 1S i (Pause) = is | Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that the name “ 7 | Lee Harvey Oswald came to your attention? e = ia | Mr. Shaw. It would have been the evening of the day of |. = 19 | the assassination. oo 5 20 | Mr. Goldsmith. How did that: happen? ! cee UE Mr. Shaw. We listened. We had a radio. I think it was | i oP ‘one of those Zenith Trans-Oceanics in one of the Embassy bo } 3 211 offices: I was out at an agent meeting when I heard about the 23 } assassination and I came back to the Embassy and went upstairs |
1-59 i \ | and we sat and stood around that radio and I believe it was Os Soviet Embassy, was made aware after the notoriety of the man JU, @ 2} in Pat Johnson's office -- her name was something else in | i | those days. I can't remember her married name. | | © 4 And they said something about the police said it was Lee : a >| Harvey Oswald, or something. I do not remember. That was the | a é first time that it came to my attention. & a Mr. Goldsmith. I would like you now to take a look at S cra No. 13 which is a transcript of the conversation allegedly 3g % | involving Oswald, a conversation taking place on 1 October '63,) a i . he = ¢ | Would you please read through that? pe oly (Pause) 2 i = a When was the first time that you saw that transcript, if | a z 13 | you have ever seen it before? ° a Mr. Shaw. I do not. know whether I have ever seen it or a ; "E is | not, ‘but I may’ well have. I was aware that he had called the | | | “ 7 i was established, but I do not recall ever seeing this before = '3 | that. | — a | = 3 | Normally, I would not. 5 2 Mr. Goldsmith. Prior to the assassination, did you see Se Mr. Shaw. No. If I did, I did not pay any attention. iy Loe) | I do not believe that it was on a Cuban Line. a3 i uh © .) Mr. Goldsmith. No, it was not. S yd ery Mr. Shaw. Sometimes you can tell who saw these things by ! SEReeT # , Sed; | i ALOSESSON RESORTING coMe aay HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 60
i i ' re 3 | i H | 7 4 : w it = e 4 = Bou foe] - i ~ i = t rs Fa wt oo ~ nN i Lned id | ~ / Ne 1 ~ 2 | e cos it ang ™ i th . a} roy yt e S i e tld = | YY , a ! = ta le ! } = = ~ = r — 4 = id I a i = is | an ee! za a ~ y = i = re iso: . i _, i) = | wT Hf . u ce va! ge 18 | ow j : H n H i = 1g | | ! a i) = ! °c ols aan o ay | ue { 4 214 aes eo if Sa © ic fy | “ ! e ae if i 1 WD ay 4 i io HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 61 i the initials up top. the person drafting the cable to help Headquarters identify. Mx. Goldsmith. There are notwritings or notations on that one, however. | -Would you please read‘i CIA 177, which is a cable from Mexico City station dated October 8th? (Pause) Mr. Shaw. Yes, this is tvpical where they try to identify somebody that was in the Embassy at the same time. Of course, | that does not-sound like it. Mr. Goldsmith. This was the famous cable that has given | rise. to some of the issues that the Committee was. concerned with. My first question is, did you have anything to do with) the writing of this cable? Mr. Shaw. No} I did not. I would not have had. } Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know how the photograph referred | to in paragraph number two of that cable was in some way Linked { ' to Oswald? Mr. SHaw. I would assume my answer to your question is no. I would assume that this was an effort on the part of Lee Oswald, the man who had made the call. Mr. Goldsmith. Do-you know how she made that conclusion that the photograph reflected Oswald? Mr. Shaw. No. I do not think she did. I think she merely says that we got a guy who looks like he might be an COMPARLY
1-61 American going in, and maybe this is the fellow. I do not see from this cable any conclusion that that is Oswald. I a3 | rather suspect they never got a picture of Oswald. This is the one that appeared there, that looked like it could be ae dan an American. Therefore, an effort was made to help Headquarters i 3, | by saying a man who looked like he might be an American entered the Soviet Embassy at that time. i 2002% (202) S54-2445 Mr. Goldsmith. I agree with you, Mr. Shaw. Certainly, ~o) c. | the cable does not say that the photograph is a photograph of Dp. : 5 } | j i Oswald. At the same time, though, it gives the information 1} | in paragraph 1 on Oswald and the second paragraph makes’: ~~ 12 | reference to a photograph taken of someone who appears to be , VASHLNEO TOR , | North American. BUT EB ING ray i i 7 Certainly they wotlid:not have sent to Headquarters simply | 1s 'a cable indicating the existence of a photograph, so by putting: REPORTERS ig j;the photograph in paragraph 2-immediately below the information! ll, 8. 7 on Oswald, although the cable does not say that the photograph = ia vis one of Oswald, it does in some way suggest that they are = | : a = 19 |related. = 20 | ‘Mr. Shaw. It suggests to me that they know an American = } ' ' 44 |who claimed to be Lee Oswald called at a certain time, and at “ft ra ‘then they went to the photographs to see if they could find 22 ‘anybody who looked like he might be an American, and the | vi | 3 bh CL O @ (a4 ‘photo they found was of a man apparently 35, athletic build, As jabout 6 feet tall, receding hair:line and so forth; and they t COMP ARLY
tak wd = 5 S 3 ow ‘ a . wt i] as OM e a 7 rm me 2 o ™ S 3 a = ral = Ae S g ~ “i “a = 4 Me = a 1a = = = é in Fad a? =, le 2 Pa x ts i) = aI = we 12 wn ~ a « Ss 29 ral be 1S ene <i “~ © yar 2 7 ae WW 50955 Boocld: 1-62 ! | man who made the call. i Mr. Goldsmith. I understand your answer. I am hopeful that you understand that I am not. suggesting that the cable definitely says the photograph is one of Oswald. Mr. Shaw. No, I do not see that it does at all. Mr. Goldsmith. Would you please take a look, now, at | CIA 183? | | (Pause) Mr. Shaws All right, I have read it. Mr. Goldsmith. This is a cable, is it not, from CIA Headquarters back to the Mexico City station responding to the | earlier cable from the station reporting Oswald's contact? Mr. Shaw. That is what it looks like to me. that the station keep Headquarters advised of any further | contacts or positive identification of Oswald? i Mr. Shaw. Yes. P Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know whether the station ever sent any additional information to Headquarters concerning Oswald? Mr. Shaw. No, I do not, and I do not recall ever seeing this cable, either. Mr. Goldsmith. — Today is possibly the finst time that you have seen that cable? Mr. Shaw. It could well be, yes. You may have one with AP ARP ecegs N REZORTING COM PAR 32277214 Page 63 ALDERSS | submitted this on the off-chance that this might have beeni the | Mr. Goldsmith. The fifth paragraph of that cable requests | ; é $ i i i ‘ i i i t !
© 4 Fas wt = 2 ~~ ~ ow ' a : wt 8 ~*~ ON : a a 7 ~ a 4 3 fond Ne . a ray >) 2 ~ 6 S e = ry = tt oe “a = 14 2 ‘ BU ELD ENG my , RERPOWPEIES PB ta aay = a47 ra ts 2 18 n = 1s = 7 ~ e “ S 29 val to ae fen me 4 ee a <> oN “ 23 @ * me ‘i RAS os, fa = HW 50955 DocId:32277214 Page 64 ALSERSGN AE: my initials on it, but I doubt it. " Mr. Goldsmith. Looking at CIA 183, there is an arrow What do you think Mr. Scott was intending to indicate arrow it says "sic," s-i-c. } | when he wrote "sic" next to the "Henry". in “Lee Henry Oswald"? | | Mr. Shaw... I would rather suspect that he wrote this on | here subsequent to the assassination when the word came out it | “Harvey Oswald" rather than “Henry Oswald" unless there is something in here that says "Harvey." Is there any? Mr. Goldsmith. Nd, there is none. Mr. Shaw. I would imagine that is something he wrote on later so that they would get the file in the right name. That would be my quess. Mr. Goldsmith. Would you now take a look at CIA No. 14. You may also want to take a look at CHAANO. 15 at the same time. - | (Pause) Would you identify the document that you just reviewed? Mr. Shaw. What it. looks like is a normal LIENVOY trans-~ | cription. I see my name up here, but I don't see anything that indicates that I ever saw it. It looks like Scott and |Goodpasture made checks on it. There is my name, but there jis no indication, no initial on my» part. Probably I did not "see it. pointédi:to the word "Henry", “Lee Henry Oswald." Adjacent to
4 “ a 4 3 sl - “ = s > ey) ™ ! a ; wa fo) =~ ™ G a 7 any < mM . a a) Y ome * a} = ahd S G = t -_ a wy oa = 13 ) = -_ tA = id = at la i 4 2 tid a = te io > “ VF o a ta. s 3 n = i) ~ < a S 29 qt eras 22 a Saw 7 of AN 22 “ ao HY 50955 Doctd: if Hf 1-64 Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript? Mr. Shaw. 28 September 1963 is what is listed on here. Mr. Goldsmith. Do you recall whether you ever saw that transcript before? Mr. Shaw. I do not recall. I must have seen it after- wards, because I know Sylvia Duran was a person who had dealt with Oswald. -Mr. Goldsmith. When was the first time that this trans- eript was linked to Oswald? Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. Mr. Goldsmith. Let us backstep for a moment... The transcript that appears at CIA No.«. 13 contains a notation in brackets by the transcriber that this is the same person who called a day or so ago. Mr. Shaw.. To the Soviet Embassy. * bd Mr. Goldsmith. Yes. Oswald also said I was there last Saturday. The trans- cript you just looked at, September 28th, was for a Saturday. Do you. recall whether anyone ever came to you and asked you whether:you were aware of a contact by Oswald? Mr. Shaw. I do not recall that anybody ever came to me, and I do not think that they did. This sounds familiar. I would have heard about this after the assassination, because I remember Sylvia Duran was the person being a Mexican citizen: inside the Cuban Embassy who I dealt with. Tene en ot Z ED hy ed A Se tay oe ow, 39977214 Page 65 ALDERSON REPORTING céMeasiy
1-65 Mr. Goldsmith. In other words, the point I was making 3 on the October lst transcript, it refers back to something 3 | that happened a day or two earlier, possibly Saturday, and 7 I wondered if Herb Minnell, when they were discussing this, = s came to you to discuss this matter? 5 7 Mr. Shaw. I do not believe they did. . Barbara probably 8 7 would have processed this, but I do. not recall that anybody x ; || ever came to me about it. ~ 3 | Mr. Goldsmith. Fine. Would you please now take a look i at CIA Nos. 16, 17, 18,:19 and 20? : 7 (Pause) $ 7 Mr. Shaw. Here you have one that I saw. Those are my : | ibbtials -~ No. 19. I did not see this one. z | Let me see what we have got here. 2 il “ 5 | (Pause) © : | , I have read it. a | Mr. Goldsmith. Mr. Shaw, you have read through CIA : ig | document NO. 22. = a Mr. Shaw. Yes, I have not read them carefully, but I 5 29 | nave looked them over. an Mr. Goldsmith. Taking a look at CIA No. 16, could you awd 22! identify that document? Mr. Shaw. This is a LIENVOY transcript. Mr. Shaw. It is a summary. HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 66 ALDESSON BEZORTING COMBAAY Mr. Goldsmith. Is it a summary or a verbatim transcript?
crossed out. If you turn over a copple of pages, you will see: SeGas | i | Mr. Goldsmith. What is the date of that transcript? _ 3 2 Mr. Shaw. According to the thing in the margin, 27 | : September '63, 1963. This is really the same darned thing ! 4 here. = 5 Mr. Goldsmith. The same as the transcript that appears ! : 5 on CIA No. .17? | g ; . | Mr. Shaw. It appears to be. s 3 i Mr. Goldsmith. Approximately what time was this phone : 3 call received? | | z 19 i ' Mr. Shaw. It looks: like something put on by pen, "Five | z 1 i minutes after 4:00 in the afternoon." MF means a woman -- ! Soy is that MF? | o> : 3 Mr. Goldsmith. Do not worry about that. | & td When was the first time you sawithis transcript? : 5 1s Mr. Shaw. I do not remember... | : 14 Mr. Goldsmith. bid you see it before the assassination? | - i : 17 Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. | : 1a Mx. Goldsmith. Yournname appears in the right-hand | = 19 corner. é 39 | Mr. Shaw. My name appears there. | However, it is not | CS dey av IAS e.3 d my initials on another thing.which deals with the same period. m tie Mr. Goldsmith. I will do that in a minute. © a4 i Do you know whether this transcript was linked to Oswald | : prior to the assassination? A A u WW 50955 Docld: 32277214 Page 67 ALOERSON REPORTING COMeaky
: i | 0 ~ i i \ - | i bate eo it = 24 Pol ~ oH as ‘ ! i wt lo} ~ i ~ » | = 1 a 7) ~~ = i mM i i 2 ~ f = | ™ i i . a | cay 7 i a i “ ’ : = id iq S =- ort fi be ay = t < . 7 4 i = i245 ta t ' = i" : : = - 4 = El ‘| £ mH te ti = iw t 2 i ~ q ~ a x te 4 a: | > : noe dl 7 t 7 i 7a v7 = ia i wa i = 13 | < Cc ieee Fae! 29 { : | Qfo3 te <=; a : Tey in! i me so oO “i a2 u H th n u WW 509455 Docld: 32277214 Page 66 Ny a % aif on 3 ter toe Se Eee Mr. Shaw. I do not know whether it was or not. I gather it was not. Mr. Goldsmith. Why is that? Mr. Shaw. It does not say. There is no mark on it, Oswald on here anywhere. Mr. Goldsmith. What are these numbers on the bottom right-hand =- Mr. Shaw. That is the file number. Mr. Goldsmith. What file would that be? Mr. Shaw. That. says subject file. 50-8-10-6. I do not know off-hand what that is. I think the 50 stands for | Mexico. 8-10-6 would be a subject file. Probabl¥, possibly somephace where they put..anformation Jon people where they are trying to travel to the Soviet Union. |Z do not know; that is a guess.. Mr. Goldsmith. Let's take a look at CIA No. 19. Mr. Shaw. Okay. CIA No. 19, 27 September, that looks like my initial. It is very similar. Mr. Goldsmith. In the upper right-hand corner? Mr. Shaw. t cannot imagine anyone else putting it there. Mr. Goldsmith. This is the conversation that took place ‘later in the day, is that correct? Mr. Shaw. 27 September 63, right. Mr. Goldsmith. Is it fair to say that this conversation ‘took place sometime around 4:26 in the afternoon, according to Cov eANY
er Mr. Goldsmith... Do you know when’it was first linked-to hn, es aia 4 we is SF BASS 1-68 | the documents? | = 2 | ' Mr. Shaw. There is an» indication there. | 3 \ Mr. Goldsmith! When did this document first come to your) @ 4 | attention? | : | 3 | Mr. Shaw. I havevno idea, because there is no date up | 3 \ there. I do not know when it was circulatéd:or anything. u : | | 7 | | 2.5 Oswald? ~ 2024 (902) S94-23n5 c oe) Mr. Shaw. I do not. | Mr. Goldsmith. Did ever come to ' you to discuss this transcript or conversation with you in Dp, VASHTHGTOL , 3 | reference to the transcript. dated October lst? G : 12 Mr. Shaw. Not that I remember. | | z '4 | Mr.. Goldsmith. At the bottom of CIA No. 19, it says : i : 13 copy O&wald P-file. Essentially, do you know when that nota- | 3 i z ts tion was put on? | ‘ in| Mr. Shaw. I do not know. : : 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. Turning back to CIA-177, there is a ! : 13 : notation on the left-hand side of the page. It says, D:200-5-41. < 29 | Do you know what that would refer to? ! qt Mr. Shaw. I have no idea what the D stands for. The | t | eG pa? 22 i 200-5-41 sounds like a file number. t 4 | 224 Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know for what? ay a4 | Mr. Shaw. No, I.do not, but I would assume, again, that ! 23 | maybe that would be -- if it is in the 50 series, it would be a HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 69
1-69 a Mexico City file. But it may be a Headquarters -- is this a Mexico City document, or a Headquarters document? | 2 | Mr. Goldsmith. This is a Headquarters document. Mr. Shaw. That is a Headquarters file number. JI have no 5 7 idea what the D stands for. It does not look right. 3 ' Mr. Goldsmith. I have asked this question before, but S ye the record and purposes of clarification, I would like to S 2 | ask you again, to your knowledge, after the Mexico City sta- 3 | tion received the cable from Headquarters dated October 10th zy 0 | oF llth, did: the: Mexico City Station ever send any additional = | : i | information concerning Oswald to Headquarters? a i 3 21 Mr. Shaw. “To my knowledge, they did not, but I would “12 have no way of knowing. Mr. Goldsmith. Did you ever speak to about : | this? REPORTERS BUEELDONG , 1S Mr. Shaw. No. . a tT Mr. Goldsmith. 7 i = i 2 18) Mr. Shaw. No. a E19 Mr. Goldsmith. Dave Phillips? < a 29 4 Mr. Shaw. No. - ; ie . wee OF Hl Mrs Goldsmith. What, if anything, do you know about the e we’ 22) arrest of Sylvia Duran shortly after the assassination? B 4 i y 235 Mr. Shaw. I remember that Sylvia Duran was arrested. i a 24 i I do not know why. I could have suggested that myself, but I 25. do not remember. ; anaes | : Cee ee Bad Bsa Sed A oe a ALDESSON RESORTING COMPAAY HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 70 {
Wo Sa 1-70 F I do remember sending a message to Winn Scott suggesting i - as 3 i that, right after the assassination, that the Mexicans put in | | a ring of guards aruund the Cuban Embassy and question everybody © 4 : going in and out. I remember that idea coming out of my . | z= § head. 3 E : '  Inknow that Sylvia Duran was arrested. She was fair game; S 7 because she was a Mexican national and the Cubans -~ she did j | a 3 | not have any Cuban diplomatic immunity. = ; . 3 I would have thought it would have been a good idea to ! : 1G | question here very closely. As to whether I said that she | Z ' should be arrested or I had anything to do with that, I do = | . : 12 : not know. i was perfectly capable of making such a suggestion. > 2 15 -Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters was upset | 2 & about that arrest? | : = 1s | Mr. Shaw. I have no idea. | 1é . Mr. Goldsmith. Do you know why Headquarters did not want ¥ 17 any Americans to confront her or to interview her? : - 13 | Mr. Shaw. No. : 13 | Mr. Goldsmith. Do you have any reason to believe that : = 39 | Oswald may have been an agent of the KGB? | vee Mr. Shaw. I have no reason to believe it. | aos : ee ; I 23 Mr. Goldsmith. How about an agent, asset or source of i & 4 Mr. Shaw. I would-think that. that would be completely : 23 f out of the question. . | HI q a 4 a HW 50955 Docld:32277214 Page 71
1-71 i | Mr. Goldsmith. For purposes of the record, could you © 4 explain why you think that would be out of the question? | Mr. Shaw. Because I thihk it would have come to light | r 4 ! immediately had he had any CIA connections. | E :| Mr. Goldsmith. In what manner? rs | Mr. Shaw. Somebody would have revealed this fact. | & 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Had he been an agent of the CIA, asset or j S 3 | employee, is it possible that someone would have been able to = : 7 | cover that fact up? | : | Mr. Shaw. I do not think anyone could have covered up. S 4 z 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Why not? = i ' $ 2 | Mr. Shaw. Had he been an agent, then it would have been & 2 14 on the record somewhere. | | = 4 2 4 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Is it possible that the record could have ve i : 1g [been erased or*purged in some way? . | g a Mr. Shaw. I seriously doubt it. : ; | Mr. Goldsmith. Could you give a reason? | z a Mr. Shaw. Just my belief in the integrity of the organiza- : 19 Hon, It stands on that, and the people in it. : : 7 Mr. Goldsmith. Does the Agency, to your knowledge, have | owe 1 vany safeguards to prevent records from being erased or purged? 2 pal 2 Mr. Shaw. Nowadays, of course, we have laws which say / 22 Nyou can't destroy material. I would say that the safeguards 4 jagain come back to the basic integrity of the people in the 23 jorganization. When you lose a President, you do not mess ! OF AR: i Syd a Sts a wwe ALSESSON REZORTING COMPSALY HW 450945 Docld: 32277214 Page T2