Released under the John F. Kennedy Assassination 
Records Collection Act of 1992 
(44 USC 2107 Note) 
NW 53216 6/17/17
104-10227-10011 A, A. @W A. Be A, . ‘Keeping is ai ) a TRANSLATION: Welly ee Fou ‘ave, ony Cing to _ say’; oo. re aga co an... the students ~« called “podgot* for short. I. ‘spoke. stout, this earlier. ~~ you knew this, without ne ~< at the bey tan ts of thie 19508 -— I do not know whicn years: 1954 or 1955 == an vexpleres, of. ‘the Sovict TORGPREDSTVO. in France, Felis. KRUTIKOV, after nis’ reeruLtiiént by French IntelLizence, tt seowis, war, run. by. wet , “you (as int ellizence)) ‘or the British -- es “do not: ‘know exactly _ Cie), In an. orientation report, it was said that.either-the Americans. or. acd I now: wit explain, ‘tor you, to the. end.. tnd ‘that ‘he was an agent of yours, or the Englisn, they = asked hin for. his biography <= how and what. Well, he studi ied at the Navy Preparatery, Scliool in naive -~ I knew this KROTISOV even before the war, : He stucisé in Baku: They asx22 hin for his biography; he probably told then. What dic te prohably tell thes. That I sticied == that is, not me, but he bimself’ had studied in the Navy Yovearatory School. Put this 2ss nothing to do with you.
104-10227-10011 ; ee, Thin hag oa relation ito your denial “(Clot ny tn fernation)) of the Navy Preparatory: Schouln, A, 1 dered and deny that there. were or are any * INavy Breparatory Schools with a three ayer course of study. If you studleds, you studied at sone “other achool, - B. At the ‘Preparatory School. ‘ ; edge tide cnt _ For | atiorty, wo called . Lt ‘tho. “pougot” : 7 Ay You ean. ealt thom vtia't you want — students can call. ‘then way thing. _ How gid you talk about. those prepa enitony. 7chnills at the beg inning- Do you remember. BT , ne . B. I do-not- know how. 1 talkod. ne AL mean what did you say at tho beginning. | cs “Be The, Navy Preparatory Sciiools welch preparo. ‘students for entrance to the Pruaze or : Deretitnaicty Schools. A. But there were not’ siich schools with.a three-year course of study . : BL. Well, I was in one in Baku’ and in Leningrad at the beginning, the ‘tenth grade. iy a ge aA. ...There ‘was: not any. in either Leningrad or Baku <= preparatory schools with a three-year’ course of study, in which training wns given in the 8th, 9th, and 10th grades. hh, That is absolutely accurate. “a It must have been a. different school; if you were in a different piace, say 60. nh. No, prec tsely in the ‘preparatory school.
104-10227-10011 B. .» Do-not! re turn ‘to KRUTIKOV. < “We know what’ ind of schoots existed at that time, and vaat they " JAS -Woll, inagnuch | AB. you" have raised this: s question, 1 can ¢ oe AG Baku Navy Preparatory School, B. One could, ee ae 2 ome, , Bare’ is why I told your thts detadd about KRETIKOV, ‘ema. alno studied _ in baku, tn tho Navy. Preparatory. School , an _— - . A, It has nothine to de with you that cRUTIKOV atuctad thore, "hear, i It has eat fon to thee fact that he etaeltesl at the Preparatory ye School; At sienifies. that’ the! achdol= ‘extated.. were ‘called. Thore: “were no schools. of the. ‘kind of which you, aro. talkin And,- thercforé, for several: aays I have becn trying) to. rind cut ¥ sii ofa school you wore in, BL In Baku, at the Preparatory School, and “in Leningrad. “a several. winutes on ae What. was the: ‘tun name: of tite Dak ‘school - Be The Raku Navy Preparatory School, And then you were in Loningraa: What was thisschool called? Po ‘B. The Leningrad Navy Preparatory School. A.. The Leniagrad Navy Preparatory School . Well, what was the per Lod of training at the ‘one school and. at the otier. 4f he had had nine years... they could accept you straicht away for the third course. If you tiad had seven years, they could accept you for the first
104-10227-10011 Ce ore a te ae course. Well, you-are trying... °°. - ay B. eQUESE:, If you had fad cight yoars, they could, Accept you ‘for. ‘the second as . I an ‘Pot try tne. Lt tora you that thore “were 3 years, other kind, - but not .as:you say. It must have had a different period ¢ of training. . ‘No, no, no, no, no, 00. ; ‘It depends upon how many classes you have conpleted. ( (Pause) ) Although perhaps this Frunze Higher Red Ranner School iment Frunze or the Dzerzhinskiy Navy Engineering School... they took students after they finished the: 1Cth grade. Aad, therefore, this schcol had 10 grades. The Preparatory Scaool, both in Baku and in Leningrad. Never did this Preparatory School «- netther the one nor the other oven in Baku or enywiuere give a three-year course. ..- .
104-10227-10011 a . mr B. Taree. years: -- and I aa telling ;- you that you could cone there having completed 3. grades, ‘and. : you can study there for one year in — og ‘the | preparatory school, A. Well, if you cane there after completing 3 Erades;, ‘sO so. But you did not cone th there. AGwith 9 grades completed)). Be I cane to ‘Leningrad after completing 9 erades, If: we, 50 “back” to: ‘your oth, rade, you could not explain tone what an A. If you acquired or purchased a certificate of completion of the Sth évade, thea say So. Te , a DC , et ae pon, B, Well, I said so, C(XG == A and B speak at the sane time)): A. ‘There is no secret to this -- what kind of exsternats there sere and how they operated “= even if I did not know about then, there ; is plenty written about then, B. -There ‘were thousands of then, thousands of then.
A, You Know there is: a difference teteeda the_ nicht schools | and the” “nornal- Gay Schools, between ‘nigat Sctisols, #48 correspondence” schools, and the eksternats. Pause). ‘Well, the first: question, was n-t in ‘this area. B. Alright. the truth, A, Well: wee : i B. Right; I found out about this ouly during my conversation. A, If you learned during the discussions, then why do you not know: which one it was. B. The Second ((chief)) Directorate. = A, Because at that tine it was not. the Second, and you. do. nci know when {it was re-named: ” | 7 . as
104-10227-10011__ st 7 sie B, -Tne Second Directorate. \ A. Why insist -on. such nonsense whcn -everyoné knows this: By There, I am 1 insisting that I beran work ing in Mareh; on the 12th or 15th, there ‘was. this discussion, and L began . to WORKS a _— Tae ‘Second ((Cniet)): Directorate, First ‘Section, Finet Departnent, ‘Becond ‘Directorate. ‘B. Iwas not working at that time. A. You yourself said that you used old references when you issued special check orders, that old printed forms were used and so forth. B. But there were not any forms at the GRU. A. If there were not any, then it means you were not there. ((Pause)) Well, insofar as you insist on your, we will return to the question which we beran to speak about. : & ' Explain to me from the very berinning how and in which year, and by
104-10227-10011 B... ae. : A. BY Ay (io What is the. .aétual. procedure. * geen BP, . . - 5 what procedure you ‘divorces your: first wife, Todt Re. ‘the. stole process. —— iat steps you ‘tools, “troa the vegtaning ‘to the end. ow did. this’ all begin: Keep in mind ‘that you’ even could: ‘not teri ‘me wnere yuu registered, WEL, the ZAGS, Rayon. Pe ou::got married ‘only tuo tides: in all, it isnot So:hard: ‘to Actually a statement on the divorce is sulmitted. Yhere is this statement submitted: eet on ee ae In the People's Court, q At which People's Court did ycu submit the statement At the People's Court according to my place of residence; it was_ (Gwnen)) I lived on Heshehans: aya, and the People's Court was on Sretetka: ((Street)).
104-10227-10011 A, STAY Ane ae oe a etter sme ceo ag Wah! ates. aS Fea : ; 3 z 5 : é - You submitted - a statenent Well, what did. -you. offer, | : 1 already had ‘a. | statement ‘tron: /- And where did-you submit it: ‘ I do not renember. - Yes. for divorce to the reople's Court on Sretenia in 1950, 3 , , a? me ‘so that your. statendnt | ‘vould. be, ‘tccopted f. vy the Court. O'not remenber, People's Court | ‘for- ‘the newspaper. Aad Ba “paid ‘the honey and gent. tt for publication. I traveled from my place of service, Bukhta Postovaya, to Sovetskaya Gavan‘, to that city. And then, I submitted it to the editorial « office ‘of the local. ncwspaper. What was the nane of the newspaper.
104-10227-10011 ee ce ~ A, Well, what.are there == 10 newspapors.~ B.. Just one. A.. What is it called. Mie 3 ; tt a ; \ ORG. -B. 1 do not remember. A. Well, where. is Sovetskaya Gavan': ~ B. In the Far East. A. Well, where. There are oblasts, krays. we oF R, Primorskiy Xray. A. Since when is Sovetskaya Gavan' in Primorskiy Kray: - B. Since the establishnent of Soviet power...
104-10227-10011 = ~ cA, In what your wan Sovetsiaya Gavan’: formed. 'B. Ido not t:now; 1. was aot concerned with ‘this question, A. iow do you explain your errors. 7 Peston OBL WWawt Kind of erroras 2° 0 or Ta. wien ‘place “was: Ate . ad do. ‘not know.  (éausne)) It. was in. “Prinorsily Kray. a a e What are you saying; ~:~ A, Well, must you know, or not. B, Primorskiy Kray. A, Well, why are you continuing to play around liko a child. "That it was included in Primorskly Kray" == do you really not know geography. How do you explain this. You have confused Primcrsk iy Kray with Kaliningradskaya Oblast, and 2 now you are confusing this Primorskiy Kray. i : How do you explain this. ,
104-10227-10011 ss te 7 aa — BC sorigts te “B. Ido not know (1426). A. fut, anyway .... Well, vhero Goes “Savatestaya Gavan’ be iony. This is stica a simple quest ton -- it is a large city. It ean belong to only one place; it. canhet be in 10° krays’. : Sovetskaya Gavan’ never. belonized to. Prtnorsicty Kray, ,- for your"— An formation, : : By. Then: 1 do not: know, I do not -know:,” Ee . Ok Then wii knows “5 Volume 39, page 482, and from the Adginistratiyno-Territortal noye pelenive for 1943, 1950; 1953 -and 1963; ‘Sovetskaya Gavan’ is a city on of Kray subordination, but {t never, belonged to Primorskiy Kray, It was established ((as a city))- Ain! ‘2941, The city consists of seversl separate settlenents; I will say where : it is located, a . i B, (3-4G). f : -. A. They include the information about the newspapers published there, ete. * PLR 6 tec give
104-10227-10011 Uf you were’ tn Sovetsiiaya Gavan', where “did it belong... _ 2, CG) Primorekty Kray. A, For your, information, . st never rwas : ‘there, There waB no Sovotakaya ‘Gavan’ An Primorskly Kray® es 1 could, of course, ‘agree -— At I asked- whore is the village of a Bory Htoky ‘there fa such, a. village in the Boviet Union : == you “aight | -satlora, ground troops, shat fave you. And you do not know. to. what: kray at ‘belongs. — : How: do you explain, this B..1 do fot know. ee oiuplain it. as f: do > not How, 1 do: not’ Eni “A. There is nothing, nothing,. nothing to draw. | There is nothing to ‘dray. Earlier, you told ne 5 that" y Gu ‘knew exuctly that you served in Sovetsx, in Primorskiy Kray, hut there never was a Primorskiy Kray there ((A refers to earlier discussion of the Kaliningrad area)). B. Sovetsk Primorskiy this was, Prinorsz ty. ; a ((XG - A and B speak at. the same tine)) 7 -
104-10227-10011 . When we established that. there was no Sovetsi:, "the: etty of Sovetsk ay ‘pose the _mgetion that way? . . _— eae ft. Welt, .one nore ‘question . -- do you" ‘know how many. krays there- ‘are in: oa _ ithe. Soviet Uniton: an you’ ‘tenan’ ‘to say Prinorsi ty", , “the City of Sovetsh=P inoksicty” Well, the City of Sovetsis=Prinorsicty also nust helong to some kray .. “or oblast. a a Well, Kaliningrad; I. told you that I came to ‘Kaliningrad, NO, I donot remember. -- Do you know the See See, a aoe oan “why is Krasnoyarskty Kray called ‘Krasioyarskty. Kray, and’ ‘the area” next ‘to it is” called Novosibersicaya Oblast, aad the next one = Irkutskaya Oblast: . ((Pause)) 8 . - an - I think” that you, as a tomer student of the Institute of. International Relations pust know this. difference. ((XNG -— Several feet of tape unreadable) ) Anyway why is srasnoyarsk ly Kray called krasnoyarskiy Kray and next. to it is called Irkutskuaya Oblast: ((Pause)) ' Anyway, you do not know where Sovetskaya Gavan’ is.
104-10227-10011 ee Td tte t de ie _ “To what oblast or kray did. it belong: Tt was’ founded. in ‘loay, I read it to you |) | . And from that time,” it has belonged to only one place; — It never was reenamed, a -serte ee ee wie woemtines = ee " It ‘was’ ‘simply Sovetskaya Gavan" - ‘military, ‘anit so-and-so, “get Way, ‘do: r say: Prinorskiy’: Kray: ee “Look, ‘it is at the nd. of: the Soviet. Jaton. s vetskaya ‘Gavan’ ‘was... A. a oe ee rr pos eet es ae This. means that it was addressed military unit"... Pots " you nust place it in sone bray or oblast, "Ud litary Unit 90176, “ity of Sovetsiaya ¢ Gavan? y ‘v/cn (Woinskaya, L " Chast' ) 90176. | Well, what do you think -~ if this Sovetskaya Gavan’ still exists, It no longer is in existence, Vell, now Sovetsk....
104-10227-10011 “Be ven, Sovetsiaya Gavan' 7 there’ 4s voniy, one: elty with, that mane,’ ‘a Bar ‘do not ish, to ro] n oS. <t o o- ow 2 . ie Cu Fay “ p a J S: o ce, a. 23 a b>) Q- >) 1. =] ec B. But. this is Sovetsiaya Gavan". It is.a bic city, ‘Tnere is oaly: one: Sovets: aya ‘Gavan’ a vit! is. ‘a big -S3ty... ee ee. re a woos vt % - ‘Sovetsiaya Gavan’. a —— On the other nand: there must “have: ‘been, Anstructions to. ‘Atndicate either. oblast: or kray... served. Ceomse)) F : ‘ina, | a gane,, and: Tan not beginning ‘any kind of A, “Well, listen; ‘a fifth grade studént knows -= 4 in the fifth grade, they begin to ‘study the paysical geography of the USSR. B. And what do you know. Do vou — everything you. learned ‘da school. "What «do: you know: , That you. know everything that you learned in the Institute: Do you reneater every thing: , No. . . You only know what you — up against. When you have to, you will thin it over, then, aha‘ - you remenber, ’ —— see
104-10227-10011 oe - nee ge Be ) staéa you reacmber . “Whea you “do° not Beaty up nevnSt Ait in reality, you are not concerned with 4 it; it docs not come, to your. head: . - : ‘| Ay i snow for certain where Sovetstiaya Gavan’ is, but I oniy took. it ” : Just to confirm 4t for you,: | . And [I litewtse know, without a textbook, | when Sonigsters was i founded: anc re-naned, -(¢Pause)) In what: "newspaper was | the: ¢ vorce, ‘announced: boos B. ((Pause)) In the: ‘only newspaper of the = ety. of £ Sovetskaya Gavan’; | - I do not:: Femember- whiat 1t was’ called, A, Was it really -the only newspaper: ©.’ ‘B. Tere was. only” ‘one: editorial office. It. was’ an organ of the eaty author ities “wen if we: eo ‘turther finishe' a the ‘Institute “Directorate ‘Who hag of Titernational | Relations, to- “gay only’ tuituortttes, "press L of the Oblast Party Connitted: - oA, Ana, further: ros oe fe 7 - | - : B. City of Sovetskaya Gavan’, organ of tae press, I knew.... A, What is this -- a Party _— Gomntttee: or a-City ((Party Connittee)): B. A City ( (Party Committee)), of course; it is a city. A. And besides the Party:
a a 104-10227-10011 A,. -To wilont do you "pay tt. ; 7 B, At tue nearest savings. bank. ny, Welt, the receipt << this.is. the last stare. 7 “ be That Ais all; there arc. no othor doginieh te: ccuse: An” ‘that’ paper. ‘from. the : court, fe is sri that Citizen (at Pe . “aane)) is: bring tag suit, for ‘divorce: ‘against ‘So=andsso . wind: lives, at. ee ee ae pansnigel a " place, eee : A, ‘Well, “you showed: ‘your  Adontitseation; what. else: Well, the Adentifientton, shown.” that you, you are. B, Right; and that ts all, A, That is not: all; they, wild. no! oe, ease) How much ¢ eid. you have’ to ay B. Three hundred rubles. — A, On what basis, Jid you have to pay 300 rubles. I do not kaow on what basis =~ to my thinking everyone hase to pay such a sun. A. If you. say you know, do not. say everyone always pay such a sum, Why is it 300 rubles, and not 500, 600, or 200. i j ; B. I do not Know; I cannot say. “gpa FP mere oy
104-10227-10011 ‘AY ay not wtthout pay ing. . hoe eM, ‘BY I cannot say. A. TAL aim of coxey wee nadd for kame reason B.- Probably, probably. © °°. A. ‘On what ‘baais: Be divorce, «| - is ae . } 1 £°thoso details: witch you aro..asking mo; I os -. I -do-not ronéabor. ; do not-romember, 25 te _A, Do you not remember when yon were divorced: — B. Ido not remenber, “I. also ‘do not know... | a Tee tg tant A, What -- you do not know how people are divorced: (@Long pause)). Inagine to yourself that your wife docs not want to jive you a divorce, . What heppens then: B, Well, my case is registered, any way. The rayon court never recornizes... never dec ides the question whether to crant a divorce or not; {it never decides. It does not matter what the testicony, reasons. But it is the City Court that makes this decision,
104-10227-10011 -.B * hand; and, if ‘she ‘has rofused and does. not! 6 OF even. af ‘sho. Were willing “aptrosnand with ‘ner- F about” ‘(Cannouncencnt)) “for publication. And the Ctty Court can evant’a iveree, deaptte the fact that she omtht. oe, Wo know this: and we will return to at, Well, why are you asking ne. - In caso she does not want to cive you a divorce... ‘Voll, - ‘you, canad: make an “announcenont dn the pross, without. ommunts waa’? ” cating: with, your wi fo: ‘and, without having all of the ‘docuine: its. y " “atvores. _ “to a Aivorcey, no: ‘otic. y wh Accept your, ce If you ‘really. got. a divorce; Ou nust ener, And {f you really nade ‘tho announiconent. ((Pause)) Joan ‘telling you the _Way ‘I _Tenomber. At, I do. not renember what was there. That is just a pretext, to say "I am telling you the way I remenber it." 7 I am ast:ing about the way it happened, Yam telling you the way I remenber it, as it was. woe
104-10227-10011 , Very wells you sent it. ‘to the ‘court. or ‘hone court. i an oe Oe « Just isa ‘that a aN “OCR, not: reneaiver, tn witch newspaper “he: cane nade 40 announcencut , An wten. hry and what: docunents he presentod; “t “ao not tivini: thint Hg actually ade, ‘the! Annowncenent add ot a = divorces. af 7 vers: te gay it, would you hol Leve me: been % or’ 7 ‘divarces .. but tt. was tho tee And, noresver, there had not first. (Cvaune)). Do yr: vant to tell further, how. you actually Lot tho-.divoree. % : The. annouacenont - was. ando: An "the. Local Rewspapor... : ; tt finally rot to. the: . It reache4 the court. What Corti A rayon court, >" Until ses did you maintain your apartment on Meshclianskaya. Leavize zor the Far Bist in 1950... Yes. “here one must say. whea ve terminated the RRPE RES y we divided dip the apartnent somehow. ‘Well, i ad two rooas <= well, ‘I an not sents the ‘third room,” because 4% was without. a windor and dark. I have Ser tue larce rooa, the bedroom with that dark roa: \--<— it was 2 strcy \- and I too: the other roon. — ; 7 ;
104-10227-10019 She. Ghd not: Atver there, hatlger tlubmgrs.. the apartnent was. loc sed up. “Sho cane. for on catple of: nours, not’ “every day, but shen suc wished, “And I Liven in any ovn ‘TOON. " Leav tniy Lor the Far asc, I turned “og ton « of ny rooa to. the bullding manager. i a 7 ' . I told thesa that, leavins) for ndateary service e, I was Riva npotie roon for uood. ; "Tama aulitary man, a : \. - "I WALL ‘turn, At over to you 1 coupletoly . a A That is, you gave it up completely: 9): =) oes sd a ty oa, B. Rut no, Y ata not ive it, SB, - Ceonptetery)): but I turned it. ‘over . (Cte, tho. butlding nanager)) ‘when. leaving. ae a? os a » How did you. turn -it: over: ° RB. So - a 7 turned. iin ‘the’ keys: and: said, & (8S wouna het be Living there: “A, Well, what, then they-took.it over -frai- A: Later, they moved. someone-ta" ro ae aca AL And your wife, B. Well, she stayed; she had the bedroom and the second -- the dark one, the study. “-A, You made tac annonncencnt in Sovotsiiava Gavan';- you gave your nance; what address did you glve la the newspaper
104-10227-10011 B. _If you were not divorced and... ws Only.: -one address: is. shown’ = And case ‘under’ review. ‘wee fg * (XG; A and B speak ‘at’ the ‘sane ‘time)) ae “And. do Hot. make. it up, OGY. se diving at such and such an address, is bringing euit, tor divorce. address..." we te ‘you made an announcenent. Te address ts not shown, but tae address of ‘tie respondent. is <— | ‘not. tho address - of the one. bringing suit, hut of the respondent, Why are you telling -me rubbish. Vaat are you thinking, after al! ---that you are taliing to a child, or what. ‘hat are you. “telling me: that of. the respondsnt. foe ey Bete" Fy ai ‘is’ shown... lf she: 48 br taging ‘suit, “thea: aadress ‘of “the” husband. (eave) Ea ae against such and’ such: a  Rexsoh. res ". . Living atts Siich and stich an, (XG; A’and B-speak at the sane time))” © ~e» you do not know such things, but you want | ae to ‘believe that” " ((Pause)) Fags on Which court; in Wiich rayon, received your case for rev lew: The court. on Sretenka, The Rayon ((Count)). Which court.
104-10227-10011 et ; B A. B. 7 B I do not remember the rayon. Ciao) that happened “thea oo. .. Tae review of the. case toox place in the Sumner of 1952 when I was - in Moscow, _ (€Pause)) May, June, Like®tnaty: 9 0% During the aay. ‘ Tae people's court. Tne People's court of waat, precinct. (uchastok). 2 du woe Cememper; there. ace seversl peceunets. In which rayon. Tell. ne how the case actually progréssed in “the: court. When in the Summer of 1952: Well, during. the day, evening, nornings "> ef, PE Ge ' - Well, ‘tel. about. at) -- who. ws. ‘present, vtat was the whole frocedare’, ‘ I want to know whether you ‘got. a divorce ‘or note Were you there or not: ((Pause)) Tae court has a whole number of cases... 1. do not need any "cases"; I need only one. thing -~ to know about your divorce. Tre trial pro:resses; there sre the people's judge and two assessors, The judge states that Citizen so-anceso is bringing suit for divorce ro azainst so-and-so.
104-10227-10011 nto A, tho elso. “nh, 1 to not renenber. fv. _“ho were gono of hor -witaoaso. yes, sho vas there waka her brother, with Kostya. B. She’ was. there... B. Only with her brothor.” OA, Wag’tho chita with hére 8 “Be No,-no, no, no, no, A. ‘hat did the court say about tho-chila- B.. Nothing. ee er Te choke fear 7 This. was. theoourt which tried: ‘to- bring, avout “a: ‘Focenetliatieas An exanination ‘was ‘nado to sée Af a reconciliation coula be ‘brought about, Sopa ae A. Well, do you. have’ in mind. that as a (Ga English: ») “consideration”, it cives you: moro. or. less a basde for divorce” BR. And ((if)) both isides do not object. A. ..They do not object: put I think that the judge, first of all, pays attention to the fact that you have a child. B. A-child. A. And souething surely was said, oF ine! jin
104-10227-10011 B. Sonethine was gatd about td. ‘I told him that. 1 was iving and would sive ald, A, What ind of a document -dtd the people s court five to you, after. the hearings 0 2 : So | a - ; Pode 5 Lo “84 \ “Be Papers @iaprav Lentye) wore ranted: to. take the Stworee to tho. city ; tone - court, dl Boe ao re a ra, an De | B. I do. not renéimbor; wolly: e-paper was. ‘given’ ‘to take to ‘the city court: It: stated that - tho: casoind been examined, and: At. was: he lng transferred to ‘the city court -- for ‘the. divorce. ote me eee A, Where did you send tho. paper? _ As more te it located: 3 Btls . a? _~=éB.. I do not reneabor. “s . | A. Tho . wos the judge: ; B. I also do not remember, A. When was tho case heard in the city. court. BD. I do not renember. A. “Kell, after @ ycar, or two. oe
104-10227-10011 A. A. ca was vith. iy paronta, Where did you.go by automobile: :,- Moll, I. do-not ‘rencmber, I do not-renember, “I do-not resember. "~” No, tive cave was heacd in bone. ' When. “I do nut rumumbes, In tho sunacr of 1952, You have said suaner a hundred tines += there are 3 months in tho. ~sumner, ((Pauso)) Well, :wo will borin fron hero <= where did you tivo at that time: . Nv Where did’ you ‘for To Shchelkovo, or where: In Moscow. In the city of Moscow. But where. I do not renenber. How uany Moscow city courts are there. ; 3
104-10227-10011 Gne, A. mere is it located. * i, T du not reneahor the nbrort. A. who ts taticins. tae. dau employes ‘of tho Second Chtof Directorate? You do not know sere the Moscow City Court... “B. 1 was ia-this' elty court only. ofié: tind in’ ay vnole A. You prébatily were there ‘many tines én business.” - B.- Only one time, © .- . Ff - re : os ; » I did not work: in the Investiations Directorate; that is why To - did-Hot have business with the court. A. Vory , bad; every: enployceo of tho ‘Second Chief. t ‘ ‘time. 1a an‘ ‘investigator, for your ‘Lpforuatton 1, t00, worked in the Second Chief Directorate and know how .1t ae TE ee operatesy: _ er ree ee ‘A, If you knew you would not be’sayinz ‘these stupid things. - You do not even know where ‘the Moscow City Court is, and you do not know in which rayon you Lived, Well, I do not reneaher the rayons; I do not renember the -rayons.. a ‘A, How can a person live ina place for :3 years and not know the’ rayon. You do not even know in which rayon -Narodnaya Street is. ee . Not to mention that one -= Sretinza; Sretinka {s a lons street, quite :
104-10227-10011 ne ‘up “to‘you,. | lonr.. And it isthe closest... Iocan tell hew to pet there; ((suilins:)) I do not-renember the rayon. If I were tn your place I vould not be smiling: w= because this ts a ‘oury serious thin, and we arc talking about scrious things. ‘If I did not attach any sinnificance to it, Lt made no difference to me what rayon it was; I could spit on it I an not playing knuckle-bones here, I algo an. not playing knucklesbones, I think; I am in prison, and an not just sitting talking with you at the tablo.. You still ore not in prison, but you goon will be - ye . oy 4 Remember that. | _ . , et Bs «™ r If {t continues this way, wo. will not have ary other way out. ((Pause)) ~~ I tricd to putyou on tho right track, ig you do not want ity it ie US Woll, toll mo about how the case went in. the city court; >. “There was a vory brief ‘hearing; again, the game procedure: as..in the: rayon court. The judgos. wont out ((to their cliambers).); the hearing took a fow minutes; thoy wont out;. then they returned; "The court is in session"-- -everyone stood up. | . Tney rendered a decision for divorce. You always just make general statements. Because T do not remember these details; you want me to five details, I do not remember them; I did not try to renenber them; I do not renenber abuus this, Pores
104-10227-10011 _ Her brother, xonstaatin. © I thins that a man who (ot a divorce one time in his life ‘would remeaher it very well. ((Pause)) Wel}, who were your. wi tnesses, In the vblast, or city court. Vadim IVANOV again was there, and GiLOV; ORLOV =— a2 kind of pal <= was there. , ; And: there was a third one, I think. I do not remember. .- What did they have to say there: _ Why were! they necded. there; . Here, no one asked then any thing. IVANOY was asked something in the rayon court; he told then Whatever, — it was. But here, no one asked any thing, sO eg . .Who was her witness: - "And who. else: 7 oe No one else. You know that the brother ~~ in tae Soviet Union, his testimony is accepted by the court, but... And they did not as: him for a word there. Kostya probably came along with her so that she would not be alone, 'And there was no witnesses or anyone- No. yy, | oe ee
104-10227-10011 A. To confirm that you had not beca Living torether, B. She would not have denied it. A. Some pouple say maybe soncone else should be asked, because neverthee less a chee: is made to sce if he did something; right, B. Well, if she denied ‘somethinz, that would be another matter; then, the judge would as.for A witness, because his testinony would not be sufficient. A. Well, if we put you in the judge" 'S position, could the judge think | that you had forced her to testify ‘apainst her wills Soneonce has to substantiate her statement that she agrees to a divorce and that she has no objection. ; Baviaps yeu had said to her, "If you do not tell ithe court ‘that you —_ consent to R “diverce, I will “kill you," ee 5 ‘k . And she gives the testimony. a — Someone nas to confirm this, or nov | Take the simplest thing. oe Pe, ae Be They did not ask ‘either witnesses or nnywne else in the city. court. A. I agree that she could havo said, and I do not object that she was .° agreeable to a divorce and that there were not any questions, but someone has to say so, because there are thousands of such cases - "All right, I will cive you 5,0Mrubles; please go to the court and: sey that you do not want to live with me." that is all. . | — And the divorce is prepared. : And a month later it is discovered that "he bought no off for 5,000 ‘rubles"; but, in another case, he says, "If you do not testify ((as I wish)) in court, I will cut off your head"; she would: he afraid and testify that "I do not want to live with him"; but , in fact.... 1 t I do not know why, but she was sitting with her brother,: and there ArAR
104-10227-10011 Wat nNO.onc else. . A, You understand wiat I aa talising: about... B.° But, it cas geoh MTT. . gr, A. I understand that it‘was not so, but anyway, the court is the court, anda judze is a judge. io believed her, but he must have some kind of confirmation, B. Refore. the judge hears the case, he will talc Lt over. with one side, ‘he will talk it over with the other side -- ((42)) he Senses _C(some thing out of order)), he can ask. , tt do not know what Kind of questions he asked hor. The judge | discusses it with the ‘people. - ((Pause)) May 1 smoke: A. Yes.. ((Pause))-. Would you not say. that you also do not. Look very good. with this divorce, beginning with Sovetskaya Gavan" and | otiding with “Bs ‘ Moscow.. we A, Because you do not know where, how, when, what ~— . absolutely: nothing. You were in Sovetskaya Gavan’ so many yours and cannot remember how long you were there. 4 B. Well, we did not: live in Sovetsi:aya Gavan’; I was jn Sovetskaya: Gavan', maybe 2.43 tines (3-4G)... and we did not have that newspaper ~ ‘we did not subscribe to it. It is the same thing as your not knowing when you were in Kaliningrad. | You do not know what newspaper it was there, but you gave lectures on politicai affairs, you held political affairs sessions /< and you do not know what newspaper was published there. ((Long pause))
104-10227-10011 “Ay I a not civine you such délicate questions of which there are hundred here mm I know this was long ayo, it is fully ‘understandatle, nore than 10 years fas passed, since it ne tually toot: -place we Dut the questions asked here are such that aman can answer them tn his  gleep. T an answering. Well, wo will, we will fo back, Well, what happened to .you XAEDIE you do not know to. which kray or “oblast Sovetsiaya Gavan’ belongs: Well, honest to God! If you want to say. khabarovskiy Kray, I just cannot say for sure, hecause that part related to Prinorsiiy Kray... here is Vladivostok, here is’ Sovctskaya Gavan’, a. S — of . BF ig “sate ag Voll, what happened after the hearing: - Tho. eaty court decision stated that . Y had. to pay sone kind of court __ costs a~ I do’ not remenber exactly the sun == 500. rubles - I age to A, B, .pay the costs. That 48, he Me initiates the | case has to pay, the costs, After I paid, ‘ the court handed me a ‘paper showing how such I had to may... ater that, I shoved “GS the decision of the court and that I had paid. 7 . - Vhat kind of paper was it? They put for me one thins == a stamp in ny. officer's identification. And where did you register the fact that they had riven you a stamp. In the passpert. ((Pause)) You still do not remenber in what rayon this was done. I do not renenter,
104-10227-10011 . to Boge, for you, this its very ptvance: Tove not renesheor ay myvon when [owas lyin on Meshchansiaya Street, ; . Toto net remember tie rayon, Ido net reneaber the rayon in which Tarcans‘: aya and Narodnyy Streets are, Ido nut resenber, atthouch I sent to vote for officials ‘to the people's ZOUuPE oF to the Suprene Sovict . Well, 2 Go not remenber, A. After the civorce, you wont to ZAGS; what kind of a documont did they -give you. ° c ' B, ZAGS rave me no docunent, except that a stanp revarding the divorce was pus. A. “Again, tais {8 not true; something is civen, B. Well, atsolutcly nothing, no docuacnt was given to mo. ” AG: Well, any officer ean forget it; théré aro aundrods” of fo.icrtes’, unde, a ae : a wat .B. -Well, they put in a staap, and then a seal is placed on ‘the atamp: what are Fou eay ing, ° How can you" ‘counterfeit it. A, Well, of course, if you lived in the Sovict Union, you must know pom that huncredcs of. people did such things after the war, a ‘And even nov they continue to do this, , : ; They loo::.for those vho do not pay their alinony, and so on, as much : : as you wish . | A, I da not know; I did not counterfeit the stanp. : . B. I did not say you counterfeited the stanp, but the stanp {s not -Cnouch; there has to be a confirmation of this stanp, : —_—_—"