__ SECRET © _4ag. ©@ B. I do not remember how much I said, what I said ~- I do not remember. A, Earlier, at one time, you said you were there more than a year; then, you said you were there almost a year; then, 6 months; now, you say you were there four and half months. i want you to tell me for the last time whether you were there or not. B. I was there, in the summer; I arrived approximately in August and was there until the end of December; at the end of December, to my thinking, I left for Moscow, in 1952... at the end of December 1952. A. Well, what was interesting there, when you were in Kaliningrad? What do you remember about Kaliningrad? What kind of life was there at that time in 1952? B. Well, I did not live there. A. Surely you were there? Pa B. Well, I passed through. Perhaps one time I went there with the fellows for a drink on Sunday... and when I was leaving. A. Well, if you went for a drink, what particular thing might you remember? What do the sailors usually recommend to drink in Kaliningrad? B. I do not know, I do not know, I Ho not know, I do not know. A. What is there?... B. I drank vodka, A. Did you ever go to the movies? B. No, I never went to the movies. A, Well, what -- you just went to Primorsk and did not go anywhere’? HW 53216 DBocld:32404703 Page 51
HW 53216 DoclId: 327404703 Page 52 What -- do you think I was there in Sovetsk for years? Well, if one is to believe that you were there for four and a half months, you could not have spent all of your time at the base. Well, I did spend all of my time there. You were there day and nights Yes, that is where we lived. I understand that you lived there; on your days off, you must have gone somewhere, right? You just cannot sit around like that all the time. I do not remember; well, maybe... it seems we went to Zelenogradsk, a resort town on the coast. We. stayed there ((at the base)) all the time. Buy, anyway,you know -- I think that I was right when I said Sovetsk. Why? Because this little town could not even be on the map, on that map; it could not be; it is too small for this -= there is no population there; there is a little settlement. I do not know why it was called "the city of Sovetsk," a settlement. For your information -—~ of course, there is in Kalingrad Oblast a city called Sovetsk, but it is not a settlement and it is not a small town; there are no other settlements by the name, Sovetsk. I have in mind that Sovetsk which lies on the approach to the spit. There is none -- that is my answer to that question, without even thinking it over. May I see that map once again? This map == I will show yo
~ 50 ~ A. I will bring you a bigger one. B. No, that one «= I want to show you the place. A. I do not want to show it to you, because ~~ every time -~ you tell me... for example, today you said, "Oh, not Sovetsk, ((but)) Primorsk." B. No; one minute =-=— do not say that, do not say that. A. Well, if I show you the map, you will say, "Ah, that was it; I made a mistake again -=— it was not Primorsk", but you will say it is something else. Let us leave it just as it is. B. You see... you see how you approach this question. A. Well, how else can I approach this question? You are smart enough! | As soon as I showed you; you immediately said, "I am sorry; I do not know how I made the mistake. Primorsk." | When I told you that there is a Sovetsk and a Pr imorsk in Kaliningrad Oblast, then later -- after 15 minutes -- you begin to think: "Neverthe- less, this place is Sovetsk. | Such a little place -- I do not know why it is called a city. Not another." B. You show me a map; on this map this Sovetsk is not to be found; I point out == here, here is the spit... Baltiysk; right there... this is Primorsk; if it is not Sovetsk; it means I was mistaken, that is all. A. There is a Sovetsk. B. Then, I was right; you are confusing me. A. There is a Sovetsk. HW 53216 DBocld:32404703 Page 53
SEC e —~“e B. Then, I am right; then, I am right; you are confusing me. A, IT am not confusing you at all. I did not ask you to look at the map and say, "I am sorry; it was not Sovetsk, but Primorsk." I did not ask you about that.: If you were there, you should know; you should know Sovetsk, Primorsk, Baltiysk, and Zelenogradsk. B. As if, for the four months that I was there, I was traveling all over the place, studying the map’... It absolutely was not that kind of work. A. Just for that reason alone, you should know that... if one is to believe what you said, you were in Intelligence of the Fourth Navy Fleet... for this reason alone, you must know. If you had said another reason -- that you were doing something else -- I would not even ask; perhaps you might not even have heard of these towns. But if you worked there, you must know -- because all of these cities had and have a direct relation to Navy Intelligence. B. Why do you say that? Intelligence is not counterintelligence; it isn't counterintelligence; i is not concerned with questions.... A. This is daily work, daily work; you do not necessarily have to be there ((to know about these places))... because you are sitting and working... today, someone or other comes from a Navy unit; tomorrow, Someone comes from some other place... you go some other place for a couple of days, and so on and so on... B. The fellows did not go anywhere except to Baltiysk; they did not go anywhere, A. Then it must have been a poor Navy Intelligence Point, that they HW 532716 DBoclId:32404703 Page 54