ii August 19687" BUBJECT: Report of Interrogation of 15 August 1965 1. Today's session was from 1100 to 1200 and froa 1300 to 1500. It was largely devoted to a review of Sub- ject's military ranks and awards, but inevitebly a susber of related topics were touched upon. Subject was alas questioned about bis father’s funeral, and about menbers of the praesidius and the Soviet Government generally. @ Gubject wae first asked when and where he first entered om active military service. He said that normally. people vere called up at the age of 18, amd I told his that the age was 19, but 18 if the person has the equivalent of a full secondary education. He-.said he was never called into the arny, but received’a deferment because he vas a etudeat e¢ the Institute of International Relationg. In dune or July 1947, at the end of his second year at the Zastitete be received the rank of dr. Lt. of the Reserve, aa..did all hie classmates... Ee received hie first voyennyy bilet (VB) at. the end of 1945.or early 1946, at the Fayvoyenkomat for his place of residence at Ul Granovskogo, be gaid be thought it might have been Ersencpresnenskiy veyon (this is correct, end is the first time he has cor- wectiy sentioned a rayon in which he lived). This was sa erdinary enlisted man‘s VB. Im 1947 this VB was replaced with am officer's VBE. Im neither case was Subject able to give ean adequate description of how the docugents were issued, mor did he have any idea of what was in thes. He does not know in what branch of service he was (except that it was not the navy), what bis sostav /category/ was, or his HOS. He said that the military registration desk was located in the yvoyenkomat, whereas prior to 1958 they were actually located im the Militia Sections. a Le ~ on rs ee ae = ve ” 3 : i et won — neraneeopnesmenpeeanetprasetitc: — “<EpIRSASINNPORECSRRIRABIONEVI-TIN enemy BREE Oi aa ftns SRI herr reememepetmmmnrinmeih * marrage tare ANN es > evgeommas . . . . a 3. Subject said that he ‘first went om active militery service when ho entered Nayal GED. This was ia October — FN = eee es An eT ne RC One RE Croats Sar * sprees
14-00000 | Treat maar eee anne RENNER HAT ese 4 SEAN Te oe Vm - BRT Mee cece em Geek Se meen an MN ge ee ee ‘promotion to a now military rank (normally, one would } fb ’ wor 2 1950, although the processing had started in the epring. He deregistered from the rayvoyenkomat in September. Be left for the Par Best igmediately. Questioned about the procedures involved in processing for hie departure, Bubject was totelly unable to describe the correct docu- gents and procedures, and even said that he travelled is ¢ivilias clothes. If Subject had ever been a naval offi- cer anywhere (or for that matter an officer in any branch of service) he could easily have invented satisfactory ansvers to sy clezentary questions instead he appeared to be improviging ansvers on the basis of very inadequate knovledge. 4. Subject gave the following chronology of hie military ranks: duly 1947 - Jr. Lt. of the Reserve ° Getober 1950 ~ Jr. Lt. April 1951 (while in Far East) - Lt. April 1933 (in HVD) ~- Sr. Lt. October 1959 (EGB) - Capt. October-Hovember 1963 (GB) - Lt. Colonel - qa so instance doen he renesber who signed the order of hig reweaber at least a fev). 1 told Bubject that i¢ was im- possible for’him te have been: promoted in the MVD in April 1953, or at any tise in March-June and even later in 1953- because not one single person in the MYD was promoted at thie time. fe locked astounded and at first seemed unde- e¢ided what line to take, but finally said that he couldn't gay about anyone else, but he was sure that he received hie promotion at that time. (In fact, this is excluded. All promotions were held wp from Beria until late 1953.) §. Subject said that he was put up for captain in 1956, but that the promotion was blocked by LYALIH--who -was deputy chairman at that time and ea sember of the pro- motion board--om the grounds that Subject should be aade — to wait because of shortcomings in hig work. Subject gaid that he was proposed for major in 1959, but only re- ceived captain. At that time, be was promised by GRIBANOV that he would be promoted directly to Lt. Colonel the ————--- nez¢ tins around, and-this happened. - —Itold Subject that — —
7400000 wes : + “ hut i sepa = ave 4 S re, 3. thir. was impossible, and pointed out to him that not even the. astronaut. GACARIN.-had.been.able. to. skip a rank... Sub-. ject eiaply insisted that this is what had happened. He gaid that he didn't know why he should have gotten such special treatzent, and could only suppose that allowance was made for his long etretch as « Br. Lt. and the fact that he was a deputy chief of department. (Subject'a story does not hold water no matter how you turn it; even 5 4? hia career had proceeded normally he would not have | an been eligible for Lt. Col. before 1964.) Asked why he had previously told ua that he had been a wajor (in the auto- biogrephy prepared in Frankfurt), Subject said. he did not think we would believe the true story. wee ers prac: cone weer aren oe yantee™  *orinaybemeart tacery rig ner aron gegen: j i | | } t t i | | 6. Subject wae then questioned briefly on the famous i VD incident. His story about the investigation of this t incident does not conform to normal practice im such cases, H and is not believable. Still worse is his account of the i consequences this incident had om his EKomgomol standing. i Re maintains that the vzyskaniya (punishment) was removed ! from his record in October ist gust a few months after ! the incident. This is never done in-less than.a year, ... i especially for such a serious offense. His explanation’ that this wae done to enable him to leave the Komsomel be- cause of age without a black mark on his record is siagply ebeurd: for a EGR officer to leave the Komsomol because of age and without entering the. Party ig a black mark in. itself, and would énevitably sean expulsion from the KGB. j Subject was completely unable to deacribe the procedure : fsrelwed in turning in his Komsomol card. Re admitted that he was the only member of the SCD who was not either im the Eomsomol or the Party, but maintained that no one had ever even talked to him about it. Yo . 7. Subject said he received the following medals ead awards: . ; Medal for Victory over Germany - 1945-46 Medal for Defense of Hoscow ~- 1945-46 Hedal 40 Years Soviet Army - 1957 Medal 23rd Clesa, for Honorable Service, 16 years - 1962 or 1963 Order of Red Star - end 1961 tm regard to the Hedal for Honorable Service, 16 years, Subject giret said he received it im March 1963, ee : then. corrected himself and said 1962. - Asked why not ‘in os in . 1960. (4¢ takes into account both military and EGB service), - a ‘ Subject eaid be didn't know why it was so late, that it: i. ae tet tg Son meen aatets, + eatin mga Re PEM iene mph ORmesseNeerei the wiyiaseryet mLibers wane GM vere Nam ane Gore nee oe tae
‘Gs wag pergonnel'a fault, posaibly because of the reorganize: tion of the 8CD. These are nonsensical answers, end it is obvious that EBubject is unsure about when he should have received this medal, remembers the previous interrogation, — and is being careful. - Asked what he received the Order of the Hed Star for, Subject wae. extremely evasive. He. claimed not. to remember - the exact formulation of the order, and perhapa slipped when he said “Por exceptional performance of mission.” Wherm I agked hina what mission, he said that it was just for good work in general. ; Bubject also said that in 1959 he was put in for the. Order of the Red Banner because of his tourist recruitments, but did not get it, probably because he was transferred to the First Department at the tise. Reminded about his pre- vious boasts about the Order of Lenin, he said that it. wae promised to him in 1963 but he did not receive it. Sub— gect did not say what it would have been for. 8. asked Subject if he had attended the opening of the Dzerzhinskiy Memorial in front of the KGB buiiding. - Bubject quickly said that be wasn't there and that he didn'¢ remeaber when it was cpemed or where he vas at the time. He refused to estimate: -whether.thie took place: ee ; under BERIYA,-ZRUGLOV, SEROVY, SHELEPIN, or SFHICHASTHYY, ' gpd looked uncomfortable when reminded that it was a very ate big event, attended by DZERZHINGKIY's wife and son, among others. (It was opened on 20 December 1958--the dist birthday of Soviet State Security--and was attended by EERUSECHEY and all other praesidium menbers. ) @. Subject wes asked to deacribe his father’s funeral. Thde he did in a satisfactory manner. Asked where he had eome from to attend this funeral, Subject replied that he was in Hoscow all the time of his father's iliness fros- Hay 1956 until hia death in August 1956 with the exceptiocs of a few days TDY in Kiev (this would be for the BURGI case, about which Subject will be questioned next time). . Of possible interest is Subject's remark, appropos of noth- ing im particular, that the portrait of his father that : : hung in the House of Columns and was published in the papers i: pean :\ the amo Of his death eas net.a gocd likesess. ...---. soe ncaa cg trile gether NELLA OHARA ten meen harem om
¥ re yl. Se og pee RAS SC wet oS a fer i oo Mp goblas CPST Gace oh wee VE. z. be ee mee KL . cope npmeneebegesemmemne thoy Tt -2ur 7 . oe a 6. ; 10. Some tine was spent questioni::g Subject om the residences and’ private lives of the Soviet heitrarchy;~ especially those who lived either at Granovsekiy or Serafi- . movich Streete. The resulta were inconclusive: Subject Jf éid tot make any mistakes, nor did he have any sensational revelations. Asked what residences he personally visited, he said only BULGAHIN, KOSYGIN, MALYEEEV, TIBOSHEREO, MIZOTAN (dacha),.SBCBERBAXOY. Subject said he did not know where KOBULOV lived. in Hoecow.. ; il. At the end of the session Subject was reminded that previously he bad said that he received hie first YB in Leningrad. Ee adaitted that thie was wrong, but said he got some sort of documenta connected with his schooling through the yoyenkomat in Leningrad; however, he could not remember what decuments they were. » mo, : : 2 ste age PCCP ORERNETIN weet monet nti pn ge memo simp rama Sewemrmetigr mame
14-00000 Repert of Interrogation ef 10 August 1965 le ‘Today's session was from 1100to. 1200.and.fron.1300 to 1500. It was largely. devoted to a review of Subject's military ranks and awards, but inevitably &@ mumber ef related tepics were touched upon. Subfect vas alee questioned on about his father's funeral, and about. menbers of the praesidgum and the Sovict gevernment generally. 2. Subjeet vas first asked when and where he first entered on active ullitery r services Sckek He said that normally people were called up at the age of 18, ' and Ite hin that the age was 19, but 18 if the person has the ‘equivelant ef j a fall se endary education. He sa:¢ he was never called into the army, but received a deferment because he vas a student at the Institute of International Relations, In June. or’ July 1947,iax-at the end of his second. year at the. Institute he received the rank of Jrs Lt of the Reserve, as did all his classnates. ! { fe received his first Sayama bhek (VB) at the end ef 1945 er earl: -1946; | oe , Ht SY aadetnetaariannniennh AN Dab A Neen te cen ET TR one erie ret intern tetera rete Eetttne :  Nettbe  te ooRttN EE EM es stowage the vayvoyenkamet ie his place of residence $aeicteecoatemtoomanie wo - the said he thought. SanecR it night have been Krapnopresnens which was Ul Granevskege (xmanon c: moore : rayer (this 1s correct, and is the first time he has pentiened a rayon in which ® ‘ Sextieeemommcermtes This was an ordinary enlisted san's YB, In 1947 this he lived)e . VB vas replaced with an officer's VB, In neither case was Subject able te | give an adequate description ef hew the documents were éssued, nor did he have any idea of what was in them. He does not know it what brane. ef service he was (except that it was not the navy), what his mxiugurg sostav: /category/, the was, or his M5. He said that/military registratien desk us lecated in the A Sih. Sixt Sectionss a 3e Subject said that be first wont on active military service when he entered ' : | | '
14-00000 Haval GRU. This was in Octeber 1950, although the processing had started in the spring. He deregistered from the rayveyenkemat in Sept. He left for the Par East imediately. ix Questioned about the procedures. involved in processing for his departure, Subject was tetall: umable te describe the ccrreet  -~so documents and prscecures, and even said that he travelled in civilian elothese If Subject had over been a navel officer anyvhere (or for that matter an efficer in eny branch of service) he could easily have invented satisfactery answers te uy elementery questionses instead he appeared to be improvising answers en the basis of very inade uate knovledgee fer Sem NE o Peat Oy VT TT se he fe A ot " ee * niet ee “ ye meee he fall Begs osatee new Bs Subject pave the following chronolegy of his military rankse ib duly 1947 « « e dre Lt. of the Reserve sate gon tttenempee Octeber 1950 fe dre Lhe April 1951 (veile in Far East) Lt. April 1953 (in MVD) © 0 «© Ste Lite October 1959 (KGB) » o © Cape. * Ogtellew 1963 (KGB) 2 « e It. Colons) tab sTiueyeeen ele Aine oe cee, fatten y in so iustamee dees he remenber vhe signed the erder ef his premotion te @ new wilitary rank (normally, onewould rerember at least a few). I teld Subject that it was impossible for him to have been premeted in the MVD in April 1953, er single persen in the MVD was promoted at this tine. He leoked asteunded and at first scened undecided what line toe take, but finally said that he couldn't sey about anyene else, bat he vas sure that he received bis premetion at that time (In f fact, this is excluied. Au Promotions” were bald up Tron Berta” ; 77 Se Subject mtn ne at a, ‘but that ; the promotion was. ‘ a owe . wh Be fog. t | - éh-any time in March = June 32% and even later in 1953 = because not one a:
14-00000 blecked by LYALIH, = whe vas deputy chairman at that tine.and a mexber of . - oy the prozetion beard = on the.grounds that dmmodudix. Subject shouldbe mde.te . wait because ef shorteomingsi; his work, Subject said that he vas proporsd fer i rajer in 1959, but enly received captain, At that time, he was pro -sed by — no marae nmenen eee tpt: GRIBANCV that he would be premeted directly to Lt, Celenel the next tims. _ ak of round, and this happened I told Subject that this vas impossible, and pointed os cut te his that not even the astronaut GACARIM had been able to skip a rank, i. Subject simply insisted that this is what hag heppened, He said that he didn't are fom ae kao eee age yar oe eemameneagte yer at knev why he should have gotten such special treatment, and ceula only suppese that allewance vas made fer his long stretch as a Sr. Lt. and the fact that he was a deputy chief of departrent, (Subjectts story does net hold water no = er he OCT Nain AOE SHATS EE Wy weemEeUee i watter what way.you.turn ity even if his career hed preceeded nermally he would net have been eligible for Lt. Cel before 1964.) Asked why be had previously oo 2 teld.us that he had been a majer (in the auteblography prepared in Frankfurt), peo it Subject eaid he did net think we would believe the true storys i- af 6. Subject was then questioned briefly"en the famvua WD ineidext. His stery i about the investigation of this incddent dees not cenferm te nermal preatise an is | Fs an i z an 3 4m euch cases, and is not believable, Still werse is his account of the consequences this incident had en hii} Kensoml standings He mintains ‘that the ysyskariys iio was remeved fro= his recerd in Oct 1954, just fou . menthe after the incident. This 4 never dong in less than a year, especially fer such a serinus effense, His ofplanation that this was dene te enable hin "—— «Aer deave toe Eerookel becating of inge, without @ black sark on hic recerd ie ad ards for &. 0B officer te’ ‘leave the Kencens) because: of. age. and: without: :. entering the: party fe & black mark dn Steelf, and v.uld inevitably mean expulsion fren. the. EGR Subject | was completely unable te deseribe the procedure ! ( a, ‘ ' ' ' . . Ce cseniemamentinienmemmeratanmnainecsdeamuneiaatenmmametame taiareemmmmaicr emer ar en ee ee ee a ‘ = .
14-00000 involved in turning in his Korscml carde Ha edmitted that be was the only Fe Subject edd he received vhe following edale and avardsel Medel for Vietery over Cernany 1945<4,6 194,506 " 40 Years Soviet Arny 1957 sad Fer Defeneo of Vescov ‘that no one had ever even talked to him about it. ; 1962 er 1963 8 3ra Class, For Henorable Service, 10 years -" Q@rder of Red Star end 1961 = in regard te the Kedal fer Henorable Service, 10 years, Subiect first ae said bs received it in March 1963, ther corrected himself and sald 1962. Asked why not in 1960 (it takes inte sccount both militury and KG3 service), Subjeat said he didn't know why it was so late, that it was personnel's fanlt, possibly because of the reorganization of the SCD. These are nonsensical answers, and. it =m is obvious that Subject is uneure abeut when he ghou-¢ have received this redal,: reveubers. the previous interregs ten, and is being carefule dnked aka vhat he recéeved the Order of the Red Star fer, Subject vas extremely evasive. He! claired net te renexbor the exact formulation ef the order, and perhaps alipped when he eaid "For exceptional perferrance ef missien.® When I asked hin, what mission, he said smkk that it vas Just for good work . in generale | . Subject alse said that in 1959 he was put in for the Order of the Red Banner, jerioblahooiogmockt because of his tourist reoruitrents, but did mot get it, prebably because he was transferred to the First Dept at the time, Raninded adeut kis previeus beasts about ths Order cf Lenin, he said that 1¢ wae prevized Wee pos $e hin in 1963 but he did net rechive it, Subject did not say vhat it would have - bean fer. : msrber of the SCD who was not either in the Korsemsl or the Party, but neintained ca aT pane we OEE ie RE teen er ot Nt A eT A a we A mee Bee te aa =i SRN Db deb cg aeBlne R S  w 1 pase? | ! ote PRR ae os st wetenqeNineD BOON ER = CCE me eI re (6 raking cenggerite tet apeeny eenee