#31: #66: #31: #66: #31: #66: #31: #66: RDP96-00788R000800170001-6 And its in that far corner. And. . its . . . Let me see, PAUSE Oh boy. I don't know how you get a Charlie Horse. PAUSE Do you think you're ready to draw some of ' those things you've shown us now? That you've seen? Well, I'm trying to figure out this last thing before I lose it. Okay. I have a feeling that this thing. . . It shows light. It shows light, but it .. . And I got the gun in the corner and another gun off on the side, but I did not have. . . I have a feeling that the wall though is longer and is not just a little thing. But that the gun sits in the corner of a somewhat longer wall but maybe only forty feet. Its ramparted around it, I-mean its got a wall around it. Its flat. I keep pulling out a cement base, like what would be a flat top roof. But its low, its only . . maybe ten feet up. Just enough elevation to look out on the field. Its not like a high rooftop. Okay. PAUSE I don't know what happened, suddenly, I felt like I had... Oh! I know what it was. I was low-crawling across the field. Have you ever tried to swim in grass? Ha ha. Jesus. I was scared out there. I felt like I was out in the middle of . . . Ha ha ha. I felt like I was out in the middie of . . I was doing the night walk, Sucker. Ha ha ha ha . I was walking around on my hands and knees in the grass. Ha ha. As in Infantry training when you proceed very cautiously? Approved For Release 2000/ Dz: sCLA-RDP96-00788R000800170001-6
Approved For Release 2008/08/07 "CIA. #31: #66: #31: #31: #66: #31: #66: #31: #66: Approved For Release 20000; 96-00788R000800170001-6 That's right. Man, I was keeping a low profile. Aint nobody gonna ketch me against the skyline. Ha ha ha PAUSE That's interesting you come back with that feeling now. Well, when I said, I'm in the grass, I meant T was in the grass. I wasn't walking in it. I was swimming through it, like this. Okay. PAUSE I want to do this while I was thinking about it. These things were bigger, their thicker. Okay, the object that you've drawn here, where did you see that? These are the ones that are just sitting on top of the ground. . . was the feeling I had. Have you ever seen anything like that before? Yeah, I have. PAUSE But, yeah. I have. They're. . . The feeling that I have .. . Well, I'm sure. . I'm sure of what they are. But I didn't try . . I tried not to think about what they were when I was doing. The hints in my description of them was very. was a very feature type and not a purpose function. type. But now that the session is over, what If feel they are. . . they are not command denitated. That's a tilt bar rod on the top. Okay. That's what I feel it is. And I had two types of feel- ings. Now, I don't know which one is which, but one ~- Oh and there's a little thing on it like that. That is a tilt bar. Not an antenna. The bar is pushed over and it detinates your mine. Its an’ anti-tank thing. Um hm. PAUSE 8 See ae »[A-RDP96-00788R000800170001-6
Approved For Release 2000/68/07°C ‘ #66: #31: #66: #31: #31: ae Approved For Release 2000/08107" *' -RDP96-00788R000800170001-6 Its an anti-tank mine? Anti-tank mine, right. PAUSE And they can either be buried or, you know, . . . But I mean, hasty, hasty seeding of this type thing; if you've got a canolized area or something where it doesn't matter if they're buried or not, you just lay them out. Okay. Because they cause just as much trouble. If you have a place where somebody could sneak by it if they knew it was there, then you'd dig it in, you know, try to camoflauge it. I had two kinds of feelings. I had the feeling of that the top of that thing . . . that the rod was about that thick, pencil thickness. Okay, a regular lead pencil, number 2. Thickness. And that it was in fact round and that it had some kind of a top on it. But then, at another point in time, I had another feeling. Okay. I had another flick. You know what a Perk 25, a whip antenna looks like on a Perk 25? You know its sort of concave. And its maybe about 5/8's of an inch wide and it'll bend any place if you Its like a tape measure, and it comes out Yeah, like a tape measure. I had a feeling of a shape like that as well associated with it. Um hm. So, . . this height is - what'd I say, - its about like that. I was trying to stand next to one and the thing was about . . . three feet. No, not three feet. Yeah, maybe three feet pecause I'm just under five, just under six feet. So, a little. . . like thirty inches. No. Thirty-four inches, okay. And I'll draw the other thing on this. And that is . . Okay, a feeling of this concave. Concave thing. Okay. As being maybe an alternate. Okay, but the sucker is about 34 inches high off the ground. They're just seeded, they're just laying on the top. Okay and I'll draw a little arrow here. And this thing was black or its dark, dull. PAUSE -RDP96-00788R000800170001-6 oe
#31: Dull color. I won't say its black. Dull, shiney- less color. PAUSE All right. I wanted to draw that one. That's Nubmer One. Number Two. The reason I'm doing these is because I like . . that way I can refer them when I do the other sketches. Okay. Number 2, I just had a feeling for . . okay, just a .. how do l describe it. Okay, here's. . here's .. the grass out here right. Here's the grass. Okay. But I had a feeling for a place in the grass area that was newly or freshly turned, okay, like this. And that. Okay. But this, Number One, Sits on top of the group. Just laying out there in front of God and everybody. And this is newly turned soil. Or, you know, soil, turned soil. PAUSE God knows where they got all this shit. #66: Newly turned soil or a mound with three things sticking up #31: Right, with three things sticking up out of the center of it. Okay. In a grassy. . . Surrounded by grass. You know, like if you go out in your back yard, you're going to plant a tree. Boom — you end up with a tree sticking out of a pile of dirt surrounded by grass. Okay. Irregular. Okay. And one case, in one instance, I had the feeling even that I could see where. when the ground had been dug up where they where the dirt had been layed on top of the grass and then had been filled back in. You know, it was like it was a-mound and then there was dirt - brownish blot over on the side. Okay. #66: Okay. i j ia i ; ; #31: Okay. Where I came down .. . was here in this corner and up here was that thing which I was referring to as my beacon. #66: The thing with the round ball? Fen eR OPEN RS A 10 Approved For Release 2000/08/0¢W#eA2DP96-00788R000800170001-6
4 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 #31: #66: #31: #66: #31: Approved For Release 2000/08/ Z oy +€bA-RDP96-00788R000800170001-6 Yeah, I think that's .. . That was up there. It was across the field from me. Here, ...- I had the feeling of three vehicles like sitting in this corner. PAUSE But . . and I was looking at them. Where did I see that? Okay, I had the feeling that the . . The first place that I saw the bump. The first thing I saw was actually Number 2, okay. The turned soil thing was somewhere in here. PAUSE Okay. Somewhere around those vehicles or those whatever they are. I hopped over here into the woods or the edge of the woods and when I when I. . blinked over there and I had the feeling that I had two people. . in there, okay. PAUSE All right. And they were like sitting on, sitting down. You know, they were just sort of like sitting on the ground, you know. All right. You started me off and I was bopping out this way. Okay. And about out in here is where I came to a thing of Sketch Number 1, okay. I had the feeling that the Number 1's were tjocated in the center. This was afterwards. I got. this feeling that the Numver One's were located around in the center and that the Number Two's were along the sides. All right. Okay, that was later. So I bopped out into the center and I saw, I think only one of each as I was going along and for some reason I magically bopped over to where the beacon was, the round thing was. PAUSE Okay, write down on this page, this is what you perceived to be Area L? Yes. I think this is Area L. Okay. I'll write it down here. 0001-6
ty Approved For Release 2000/08/07 "'CIA-RDP96-00788R000800170001-6 #66: Page Number 3. #31: Right. Okay. PAUSE I didn't get any other feeling for... - Iwas . . When I was here in the trees I had the vague feeling that this line here on the bottom of Sketch 3 was vacant. But I didn't get into it. But I just had the feeling that it would be preposterous for them to put people there and that it was preposterous for them to put people there. I just had this matter of fact feeling that there was nobody in there. Okay. #66: Now where was it you saw the crew weapons and the people? By your beacon? #31: Okay, that's up here. That's the feeling I had up here. I'll just continue using 3 for that because. Okay, the next part of the transcript then is I moved up here and the feeling I had was-that out in front of or just to the side of this was another group of two or three vehicles. Okay. That there were. . okay, what am I doing? Pencil I'm putting in things and Ink is fixed things. Okay. I guess, I don't know if there's any code to this or not. But okay. I had the feeling that there was a crew served weapon — small like an old 30 caliber, but its a tri-pod type thing. Its not a bi-pod. I had the feeling the thing sat up on legs. Okay, I'll draw a little inset. PAUSE Its going to be very rough. But I had. . to get the idea across of the tri-pod thing instead of like we're used to having, bi-pod type stuff. If really had the’feeling it was. it was... you know, an upright legged type of . .. piece of equipment there. And two people. More trees behind. Actually the trees are behind that. I put that in the wrong place. Okay, then I had a door in there and I had the idea of people coming and going. . . in there, oKay. Approved For Release 2000/0 ey < -00788R000800170001-6
A-RDP96-00788R000800170001 -6 #31: Now, . - - Oh, that's also where I had the feeling of the wire. I had the feeling that there was a piece of. . . there was a strand of electrical wire that ran out across the field into these things. Something. Like the vehicles might be being used or the bumps whatever they are, that I saw, might be being used for a shield or ‘they might be carrying explosives themselves. They might be positioned and a wire running to them. Or that they might be a shield for the crew in the . . you know, in the gun. Okay, something, because, well, just thinking of things like claymore mines and everything, there's a hell of a back blast on it. Hopeful, you know, I would presume they were at least smart enough to know that. So, we don't . . you know, so they wouldn't get themselves caught with, you know, pointing a bazooka the wrong way. PAUSE Anyway, I had this definite feeling of wire. . wire .. It was more dim, it was more like TV wire. It was flat. <A flat piece of wire. I'll just draw a little - flat and its black. Flat, black wire, you know, like television. antenna lead wire looks like, its flat?.~- #66: Um hm. #31: And its not just some little old thing. Its not WD-1, its not this kind of stuff, its flatter. More to it as well, you know, like its heavier stuff. I don't think it was like electrical cable. I didn't get the feeling it was like super cable. Like for lights or anything like that. I had the feeling it was . . it was more. . it was less than a cable, okay. Anyway, it runs out of the wood line here. Then where did I go? PAUSE Didn't have anybody up top or anything. I didn't catch anybody on the sides. That's about it there. People coming and going in the bottom. At least one. I saw at least one go into the . . square thing and under that. Through a door that enters on to the woods. Its not a door. . I didn't feel that there was a door that's out on this field. I felt that the door points back into the woods. To the left of it some 25 feet. . were the crew serve weapon. Out Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : GIA- 8R000800170001-6
Approved For Release 20 Approved For Release 2000/0 RDP96-00788R0008001 70001-6 in front of the crew serve weapon were these bulges, these dark humps that I perceived to be the vehicles. Two or three. I'11 draw in another one with a dotted line. May be two or three. And with a line like in the darkness. When the wire runs out on the ground, you know, you can . . you know, it generally goes that way, but you know, you lose it after about ten feet. You know, you can't see it any more but it looked like it was going that way. That's the kind of a feeling with this wire. Okay, so from there I was coming across like this and as I was transiting back in this direction to go to Area K, . . K? Um hm. L. . . Yeah, Area K, . .. I had more . . This is when I got the real feeling that the Number 1. . there were more of the Number 1's because I had a feeling . . that I had a number, I passed another Number 2 20-25 feet out of the tree line, okay. As I was going along. PAUSE But that as I got farther out into the center of this thing the Number l. . . It became apparent that the . . the mounds. . . there were no more turned mounds, but what they had were Number 1's just sitting on top of the ground, okay. PAUSE And I will just throw. . . All I saw was just like two or three but I could just get the feel- ing from the density. I wasn't seeing any more dirt. I was just seeing these things. And there's there's more, you know, I'm sure that there are more. But, anyway, from this . . what I have is this pattern. I'11 draw in, in the green line. That's not green. That's a green pencil but it aint green lead. I'll use a green line to show sort of the idea for the pattern of using these things or way they've laid . . sown. . seeded these things, okay. PAUSE Okay. What now? I suppose I can include this also as well, I can include the feeling I had for wire in here. 14 sy FBT 707: CLA WaaizP96-00788R000800170001-6
Approved For Release 2000/08. #766: wit qa -00788R000800170001-6 When you say wire, you are talking about electrical wire as opposed to concertina wire? Yeah. Right. This stuff. Okay. Okay. PAUSE All right. Well let me give you this. In the okay, here in the bottom, I want to show you what they've done there. I had the when I got in on the tree line on the bottom of three, I'm going to four now. I got into the tree line on the bottom of three, I had this feeling of . .. . okay, trees. Possibly a double. Felt, yeah I felt a double row of trees. Even. But I don't know if that's on there or not, but anyway, I felt that in the double row of trees like this .. . that what they had done is I had the feeling of these wires. And that what they had done is they had laid the . . what we would refer to as the claymore type shape mine and that was . . that was good. . the wire and everything -— that was good. No sweat about that. The wire as well as this image. I had the image of this thing —- the tree trunk and the sucker slapped right up against the base of the tree trunk. Okay. So that when it detinated, the tree would go but it would cut the back blast.The tree would absorb the back blast. You know, a claymore's effective without a backstop. But anyway, they had back- stopped them against these tree trunks. Okay. PAUSE Interesting thing though, they were awful low. They were like almost at ground level. They seemed like they were only like maybe six inches above ground level. The first place they could get a level, a level place for the . . where the for the mine or whatever this funny thing is to be slapped against the trunk of a tree. PAUSE And all... I had the feeling of just two of them. I had just the two wires. Okay. That's all. Going. . . maybe servicing in different directions, maybe not. 15 EDP96-00788R000800170001-6
Approved For Release 20 or #66: #31: Approved For Release 2000/08/Q -RDP96-00788R0008001 70001 -6 But the idea or the concept of the . . of the curved metal. . . the curved metal plates stuck against the bases of trees is . . you know, it was valid imagery. I saw that. And as well as that I see the two wires. PAUSE Okay and this is leaves, you know, leaves and everything and the wires are just laying on top of the ground. Everybody can see them. Okay, so let me put you in perspective here. This is . . . What is this one that I'm working on? Area L. And that's to Area K? kK. All right. PAUSE Area K. All right. I swam out of Area K. Ha ha. I swam out of the tree line. I felt. . I really felt like I was out in the middle of . . you know, I was high stepping through a free-fire zone is what the hell I was doing. Because I felt like I was just . . you know you get this itch in the back of your neck? That's just the way I felt. I was itching all the way across that one. PAUSE Okay. I'll just draw you a top with this as well. PAUSE Where did you start this area here? Well, I continued the area - the arrow. See the arrow here off of 3? Right about in the center, I saw .. . center of the, what do you want to call it? I went right across, right about through. in the center, right through the tree lines, because I was Okay. I was walking . . I was out in the open of L then I winked to the tree line and saw the cord on the ground or det cord, det cord or whatever and the things placed against the bases of the trees. And that was it. And then I got down on my hands and knees and I started to crawl along into K. Okay. -00788R000800170001-6
#31: #66: Approved For Release 2000/0 P96-00788R0008001 70001-6 PAUSE Okay, so I'm like I entered here. Okay, right about here. Where the ''X" is. I was going in that direction. All right, I had the feeling. .- no sooner did I break the tree line, looking to the right, I had the feeling that there was a -group of . . bumps. Okay. Maybe cars, maybe not. A group of good-sized things off in the darkness. Okay. Two maybe three of them again. I came on it and the first feeling that I had was that there were fewer. . . that they were sure of this place. You know, and that they needed. . . they did not have so many mines out. They did not have so much . .anti-personnel type mines out, okay. So anyway, I swam through the grass, low crawied, whatever you want, did the Australian Crawl. out to about here. Okay, I had the feeling of Number 1's -— okay - along the route. I did not have any feeling of Number 2's along the route. Okay. And if the theory of "L" had held true I should have . . I should have picked up anti- personnel mines along the margin. PAUSE Okay, but I picked up none along the margin of the area. All I picked up were these big honkers that were Number I's. And I got a number of clear, repetitive images, like against a skyline of this pencil sticking up. You know, it was just . just like day, like somebody. . you're walking through the woods and you break the skyline and the guy behind you is your RTO and you see this thing just stick . . you know, just moving right across the light - the ambient light of the sky- line, okay. I was just having these feelings. You know, of just four or five flashes of this stuff sticking up. All right. That was it. PAUSE All right, from there. I just .. For a peculiar reason, I just moved immediately over here. into the tree line again. Only the left tree line. This is Area K. Where you are writing will come out on the binder. 96-00788R000800170001-6
Approved For Release 2000/@ OTe #31: #66: #31: #66: #31: #66: #31: Approved For Release 2000/08/04'..CJAtR DP96-00788R000800170001-6 Okay, let me write it lower then. I'11 write it inside. Okay. All right. PAUSE Came out over here. All right. Here, I had the feeling of some hasty positions. Dirt scratched up or scruffed up and I also had the feeling that the edge of the field itself lent itself to a hasty position. That it burmed off. Okay, that the field burmed off into the tree line a little bit. Not much. But like maybe a three foot drop okay, over a period of maybe 6-8 linear feet all right. Horizontal feet. And so this burm had sort of been used in a certain stretch of only 20 or 25 feet to builda.. to put up 2 little bit more of burm, I saw turned dirt in a row and I had the feeling that there were people there. They weren't in and ready for action, they were sitting around smoking and: joking. But that there was scraped dirt in there - in under the trees and that had been piled up. . . in a long row. Okay. All right. I'll call that 20 to 25 feet. And I'll say a few people. Hasty And what weaponry did you see here? I did not see any actual weaponry there, all right? Okay. I didn't get a feeling for automatic crew serve weapons or anything, really. I had more rifle pit feeling. I didn't see any special places or areas or anything else, I felt more like a rife pit firing line type of a situation. I didn't. didn't get attracted. But all this while, if you notice I'm working towards one corner. All the while, from the minute I entered Area K, I wanted to get to the upper left hand corner there because I... felt that that was the important area of the thing. 18 -00788R000800170001-6
Approved For Release 2 #6.5: #31: #6.5: #31: #66: Approved For Release 2000/ P96-00788R000800170001-6 Okay. That that's where all the pee was going to come out from, okay. And they had all their aces stacked up in that corner. That's why they didn't have to worry about anti-personnel mines in this area and everything because they really had fire power there, you know. All the time I. was moving this way. All right. PAUSE Now what do I say? Okay. There is something in that corner. I don't know if its on the . . that or not. I had a. . What I described was. Hmm? What? I said an aircraft carrier. Oh, Ha ha. (Not audible). PAUSE I'll just write See Sketch 5, here. See, Sketch G. Because there's no way to do it justice. Okay, so what you're gonna draw in 6 is what you saw to be up in the right. . Yeah, right in that area, okay. Okay. “Cause there is something there and I don't know what the hell. All right. I had the feeling of a low wall. When I first looked at it, it looked like a low platform of some kind. Okay. PAUSE All right. At one time you said you thought it was a side of a building but then it didn't make sense ‘cause it wasn't high enough? 96-00788R000800170001-6 ect cee a oe teat RAR SDD. NAOT RE SE
Approved For Release 2000/0 -RDP96-00788R000800170001-6 #31: Um hm. Right. It appeared. . . Right. Absolutely. It was like the dammthing was only eight feet at the max high. Maybe six feet. Okay. It was like just above my head level. Okay. You know, if like you were to . just put yourself up high enough so you could see everything but you're not really up high. You could just put yourself up high enough so you can see everything. All right. And the woods are right here in the foreground. PAUSE Okay. Here's the foreground trees and everything. Okay. Its like I'm looking through the tree here. Anyway, right off the corner of this sucker, this tree here —- that's not a good picture, screw it. Let me draw the tree first, then I'll draw what the hell I'm trying to do. Okay, there's a tree there, tree back there like that. Okay. PAUSE I don't know how far back the damn thing goes. And here is this feeling of a burm. Okay, I was telling you there was a little burm. I had the feeling that the ground tapers off here on this edge. Okay, and it tapers off all the way down. Okay, but there's something there. . . on this end of it and under the tree its like its covered over with trees, because the trees come right along the side of this thing, is a crew serve weapon. I had a definite feeling that there were two at this position. One on the ground. Okay, and one on top. Maybe 25 feet from each other. All right. Now, I don't know where this thing came from. Where it is or what it is. PAUSE From the top. In the upper right hand corner of the top, I'll do the rest of it. Okay. PAUSE There is a little wall around it. Not much. The weapon sits in there. Overtop of the wall. All right. I'm just drawing it in. I don't know what kind of a weapon it is. Its something. There's two guys up there. Ail right. Now. Here, if you can get the feeling for overhanging foilage, okay, there's overhanging foilage here because 20 § Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : Cl
Approved For Release 200 #66: #31: #66: #31: DP96-00788R000800170001-6 its right along the edge of that tree line. And down here as though you were looking through this tree is where the other one is. Okay. It sits down on the ground. PAUSE I had the feeling that this thing. . . that the one weapon is sitting on is maybe - what did I say in the session, 30 feet long? 25 or 30 feet long. PAUSE Okay. PAUSE And that from this position, they somehow over- look? Yeah. This is there. . This isthe thing the strategic point, I had the feeling. Its the main fire point. Okay. How about putting a dotted line at an angle across that page.so we can separate those two images one from the other. PAUSE Okay. This is an aerial. PAUSE Horizontal . . . what do you call that when you have... . Terrace. Its a small terrace along here. PAUSE Okay, small terrace comes along this wall of the place. In other words, the small terrace would go right up the tree line. Its as though the trees grow up and out of the ground but the terrace goes across the trees, you know, so it looks like if you didn't .. . Like I was drifting. I was saying Jesus Christ, I'm on the side of a hill. You know, this sucker's 20 feet deep down here and I was saying No, now wait a minute, it isn't 20 feet deep, its only, Oh, it looks like its 551KU00800170001-6 |
Approved For Release 20 0 OF: ™ , ee: *RDP96-00788R000800170001-6 only maybe a four or five foot drop slowing tapering off. But I. . the idea of it was the tree's growing at an angle to the side of the hill. Okay, you get what I'm feeling now? #66: Sure. #31: Okay. #66: Sure. #31: Okay. PAUSE That position or whatever it is. The top of a structure or building or a wall that they've moved in behind or something like that to use, TURN OVER TAPE - SIDE C #31: Okay, I... this place. . had the feeling that it was . .At least on the one side it was in under overhanging foilage. I had the feeling that it was light in that I could discern it and I could make it out in the darkness. PAUSE That, like it could be... no, as a matter. .. I'm sure that its some sort of a roof type thing because the . . where the guns are positioned it. feels as though that too is a cement deck. It It felt like it was a cement deck. They are not sitting in dirt. They're sitting on something which is three dimensional. Its not behind some- thing which is two dimensional. Its as though they're sitting on top of something that's three dimensional. Its as though they're sitting on top of something that's three dimensional. And I also had the feeling that at times, if I let . . if I just sort of drifted, I felt like maybe if I drifted in time I could see another three or four or five people up behind this wall without crew serve weapons, but like other people coming in and leaning, sleeping against the wall or leaning back against it like this. Lounging around. But when I was there, there was nobody there. Except the crew. I had the crew there. Approved For Release 2000 . ‘DP96-00788R000800170001-6
a Approved For Release 2000/08/07 }}GIA-RDP96-00788R000800170001-6 #6.5: Two people, haste position. All right once you got over in this thing here, this corner where you Saw the two guns, you never got back over in here? #31: No, I did not. That's about the time I petered out. I started getting a body cramp. #6.5: Okay. #31: And then it started to break my focus. #6.5: Um hm. Okay. Good. I understand that one. #31: You do? 76.5: No questions. #31: And this one? #6.5: Yes. #31: Okay. #6.5: Okay. Approved For Release 20 + eevee stenes cne fan energie enemas at aan te enn ns eps . CIA-RDP96-00788R000800170001-6