Approved For Release 200a Gi fidafSiedefande=00788R000300860001-5 +15 +20 #14; #363 #14: #363 #14: #36: #14: $36: #14: #36: As you came through the entrance, was this desk, is this ‘desk located to the left or to your right? Oh, I see it. It's, uh, on my left, and there's a door somewhere behind it. Just beyond that a few feet is ae.. further indentation to the left. I don't know whether it's a hallway or just a...setback in the wall. It appears to be on my left. Very good. Before we move on any further I want you to take a close look at this individual sitting at the desk. Do you perceive any arms associated with him or this posi- tion? With him, on this position.... Does this- Yes, I feel a strong feeling of, uh...security. I cant’. get beyond this place without, uh...I couldn't...I couldn't just barge by this place. He's looking fora...the weapon I saw on the table, uh, desk before, but I don't see it. But I feel a strong...sense of restriction, like this position is capable of stopping someone. But I don't see any weapons right now.... Dark trousers, that's what it is. Qkay. at this time- and I want to reinforce you, you're doing very well. At this time, I'want you to move on, and move left to that indentation that you described beyond the desk. To your left, I want you to move to that point and go down what you call the indentation, describing as you GOveese -Ahh, I was just, I'm not seeing anything. I...came up against...a conglomerate blank...can't explain. I...got an extremely high frequency....uhh, p-p-p-piercing sound in my ears... I saw...blue color with decorative edges. I saw a pentagon shape in the middle of it. This was over, over, above my. head...1 guess about 45 degree up, uh, above me. Wanna try again and see if I can see something in this... something tangible I can get my hands on...ee Feels like a....somewhere I'm seeing...somewhere I'm seeing aeeslittle...what do I say? Separation, uh...a little gate in it, that doesn't restrict anything, except dis- courages passage beyond that point. I can go beyond that point then. I can't see all the way down through there, but, ah...let me see I just went past it, just turned left and there's a door on my right. I want you to go through this door and tell me what your impressions are. Mostly very bright...cream, tan color... -SEGRET Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 20 ngs Fa Ce figeferryerto788R000300860001-5 +25 #14: #363 #14: #363 #14: #36: #14: #36: #14: #36: #14: #36: #14: #363 You're doing very good now. It's high windows here... You're doing very well. I want you to describe everything you see here, and naw you can tell me about the windows. Where are these windows located? I don't know, I just saw them above me, above my head, but higher than...real high windows, I...there's bars...bars on this window anyway. They go straight through the door... straight through the door. There's about a 30 inch inden- tation in the wall to my right...shaped like a kitchen cabinet... It's dark colored...electric wires... Ah... I think it's some kind of a...1 feel that it's some kind of communications thing here, uh... You're doing great. You're doing very well. Please con- tinue just as you're going. It's not a very big room... Look to your left. Tell me what you see on your left. I saw...I said table, but then I see something that looks like a...a bunk, or a couch or something... Looks like a... a brewn couch like thing I think...table here somewhere. Oh, well, I guess near the door. Oh, there's a closet here, uh.e. It's kind of specialized, it... I want. you now, as you're looking to your left to look across the floor. Pay attention to the floor. Describe what is in the middle of the floor... Ah...el'm seeing a lot of stuff that reminds me of glass, you know, that translucent, airy, reflective color that you can't make up your mind if it's silver or glass. Flicker imagery tells me it's that quality. I thought the... also thought there was...something extending down from the overhead as well. I thought it was some kind of a work station of some kind, but I can't dope it out. And the closet to my left it was, it didn't seem like it was for, for coats. Seemed to have vertical slots in it, like...1I don't know. It's not for coats. Okay. I want you to walk in to the closet. Hell, I can't... It's, it's a door with storage bins and shelves and things, no coat hanger. Can you describe the types of things that are on the shelves? Some of ‘em are tubular things...small, uh, small parts of some kind. Seem like...seem like one or two bins have got SECRETE Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 200qUoIp Fe Gaigetised=00 788R000300860001-5 +30 #36: #14: #363 #14; #363 #4: #36: #14: something, they're like boards, uh, like...like briefing boards, or, uh, chart paper or something. Shouldn't be folded....I'm seeing what looks like a fancy ornate fire- place where somewhere...a stove... Okay. You're doing absolutely super. At this time I want you to move to the north side of this building. I want you to move to the north side of this building. I want you to look out through the window on the north side and describe what you see. I see a rather...off at some distance there the darn thing seems to be, uh...a building that's taller than it is wide. I think it's, uh...from this angle it looks like the top of it is, uh, is flat, but it, it could have a kind of a peaked roof inside of there. The, uh, facade around the top. I get the feeling I'm looking through a...f got a very weak translucent image of a...like looking through a small park. Il see a few...few trees, and a...walkway and...something on my right that for some reason is reminding me of a horse. I don't see anything that...I had that kind of feeling. Okay Street over there to my left about, uh...a couple hundred feet, it goes away from me down that way. How far away from you is the building that you described? Ohh, it's hard to tell distance, but I'd say, uh, just be a good, it's over three blocks. Maybe...maybe a little more than that... Off tothe left of me...what seem to be dull, haze, I don't understand that. I get the feeling of a... even. more narrow spire or a tower like, uh, structure. Not an antenna tower, but like a building tower. That would be to the left side of the street that's on my left. And it's way over there. Oh, there's buildings on this street over here, I forgot to tell you that... Over there, further to the right I can see, seems like the buildings are... bigger on the other side of that street on my right than it is on the side of the street near me. Between those two streets I can see’ things there, but’ they...betyeen!the . street on my right and the street on my left, on street » ahead of me here I see...things that have less vertical development. Whole thing seems kind of low key in that area. Not very interesting to me for some reason. The buildings on the other side of the street to my right, uh...I don't know, they kind of seem like commercial buildings. big, uh, big, uh, big...I don't know, three stories high or so. Okay. Let's- you've done very well. Extremely well. At this time, remaining at your position at the window, I want you to turn around. Turn around, facing south, remain- ing at your location. Face the south and describe the room that yOu Are UNecerescaueccroecs GEGRET Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 200QKS EL COARSE BA00788R000300860001-5 $36: +55 #14: #36: #14: #36: #14: #36: #14: #363 #14: #363 #14: #36: #14: #36: #14: I don't know, I think I'm...up off the ground, I, I must be. I'm not on the ground floor, I...I'm getting...this doesn't look like a room. It looks like a...big hallway. It's big enough, it's got some...pretty nice old furniture in it... And I see light way over there. I think I can see clean to the other side of the...clean to the other side of the building. Either that or there's a skylight over that, down there somewhere. I sense it. This hallway must be. shaped like a cross, because I, I can see openings about a third or so of the way down it open to my left and my right. Okay. I want you to focus on the walls. Do you see any- thing on the walls that stands OUL?....secccerereseevne I don't know, I've got a...a linear pattern. Tell me about this linear pattern. Ah, it's very faint. Coming and going on it moves towards me and then it moves away from me..-kind of dark in here you know. Focus= Just a vertical linear pattern. Focus on this linear pattern. Got my eyes on the pattern, and that horizontal linear pattern about waist high. Could be a wainscotting or some-. thing. Some kind of horizontal pattern and...got that damn high frequency whistle again. Do you associate a color with this horizontal pattern? Hard seein’ anything, it's the same color as the...same color as the vertical pattern. Tell me more about this vertical pattern. Ah, it's...I'm sorry, I forgot. What'd you want to know? I want to know more about the vertical pattern. Oh, yeah...okay... Uh, it's very subdued light in here. There's this, on my right there appears to be very dark gray linear bands, uh, I guess a darker gray, almost black... Seem to be a horizontal band about three or four inches thick about waist high goes horizontal. Okay, at, at this time I'm going to have to turn the tape -over. All right, I want you to relax and maintain your focus. I will try not to disturb you. I want you to re- main at those patterns. -SEGREE Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 200nfappiaferieyefarrss"00788R000300860001-5 #36: fAlAs #36: #lL, It's kind of boring looking at this thing. Okay. - Ready to. change..the tape. . . Allright, #36. I want you to focus on the dark gray or black linear band or bands that you perceive. I want you to follow these linear bands, describing as you go along what you see. They're out here on my right. I feel that it turns...to my right. Goddamn!....I don't know, I got a...I don't feel goode Ieee Okay. Think my imagination's got the best of me here. I thought along this hall here was...just went way down there. And itee. just for a flash of a second looked like... Okay eeelooked like I was in a dungeon...like...dark as hell in here. “Okay. I don't know. Where are you at this time in relation to the room you started from? Well, think Itm still up here on this floor. It's above ground level somewhere. I was looking down this...I was looking down s~, looking south. Tryin' to see in this damn, uh, damn outpost here. I could see light at the other end of the hall and I was... Oh, yeah, I see where I am. The wall to my right was a gray vertical pattern. I moved along that wall and there was a hallway to my right. I'm standing here looking down that hall. I.don't know, I think I'm imaginin' things. I would just as soon not...try not to analyze. Okay, then don't try to analyze. I want you now to look down that hall that you were looking. Do you see any stairs? Look to your left. Do you see any stairs to your left? Oh, yeah, in the corner there's some but that's not down that hall. Looking down the hallway, if you were looking, where are the stairs located from you? Right here immediately on my left. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 200 Qiiiteafeskliieliisiitie) 07 88R000300860001-5 Concentrate. You're doing absolutely remarkable. Concen- trate. Concentrate on this number, the full number. 933..sethere is De scesecscccssecveseel if SOrTy, T can't get tem in the right sequence. Have to see each letter at a time, each number. Okay, give us these numbers. The 7 is a gray number. But the 933 seems to be black. The number in a minute (mumble)...7339. But then I wander off and I remember what I'm supposed to be doin' and I come back and it looks different. Pretty interesting place here. Okay. You've done very, very well. I want you now to move past the guard desk and on out to the front of this entrance. I want you, once outside, to turn around facing the build- ing. I want you slowly to drift up, up in the air, until you reach the rooftop level. At this time I would like you to describe the roof of this building. Ahh... feel there's a..-I guess you call it a private thing. Wall like facade around the top. And there seems to be a rather shallow sloping roof, that's shaped, that slopes in all directions. I mean that, uh, there's no ver- tical fronts to the roof. It slopes downward and slightly to the north, east, south and west. But the gutter line seems to that don't make any damn sense. Anyway, the gutter line seems to be below....below the facade. Below the parapet, parapet, parapet thing. Seems like a...hmm... I get the feeling that there's metal in the roof somehow. Like, uh, soldered metal. I see...couple protrusions over there. That's be, uh, let's see...enorth side...toward the norhheast corner I sense that there's as..something stick- ing up like a...vents or chimneys or something. Is there anything more you would like to add before we... we quit? Do you perceive any box type shapes on this roof or anything? I just told you about ‘em. Very good. Seems they could be, uh, (mumble) they protrude upward. They could be vent devices or a thimney or something. I don't know. They must be about..emust be about...I don't knoweesea meter or so across on one of tem.--about a meter acrosse I can't figure the damn things out because it... one of tem looks like a little...a little, like a little dollhouse or somethin'. That's over there to the left. Can't figure out how this roof has got a little slope to it. ‘Cause from the ground it looks like it's flat. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 2000 #36: #39: 788R000300860001-5 There's quite a few little things up here protrude up above the..»eprotrudin' up above the...roof. The roof appears... very dark in color. I would have thought that it'd been very light toned to reflect the heat. Appears dark. There's a goddamn antenna up here somewhere and I been...I know, it's probably like looking for the sky's blue, but...I guess all roofs have got antennas, but there's one around here some- where. I looked for a TV antenna but I didn't see it. I _ think if I stand on the wall directly over the entrance... I keep looking for the antenna to my left. But I don't see it. But it's there. One last question before we break. When you're standing... I'm sorry, what? As you're standing looking for the antenna, which direction do you feel you are facing? Oh, I'm standing....on the edge of the building, directly over the, the door where I left the guard so let's see, that, that makes me looking north, I. guess. Very good. I want you now to relax, and I want you to defocus, I want you.to unfocus from this session- T'm awful tense for some reason. Okay, I want you to just lie there, relax. Take a deep breath, stretch your arms and legs and slowly drift back to this room. We will pause at this time. All right. Wetre now ready for debrief. Okay, uh, again #36, was the~ when you arrived at the gate, was the lock on the inside or outside of the gate? Oh, uh, I think it must have been on the inside, because I was looking at the, the chain, following the chain around. It went around across the, uh, the bars... Then what we pereeive that And, I was looking for the, I was looking at the lock and I couldn't see it, and then I focused very tight and I could see it. So I don't think it was on the side that I was when I was looking the chain go by. So, I, I think I just focused in on the lock, and I think it must have been on the other side. I don't remember asking myself about that at the time. Okay, when, when you saw the silver colored key, where was the key? Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
#36 #39 #393 #36: #393 #36: #393 #39: #36: #39 TASS 6 -00788R000300860001-5 Oh, justin space. And letters "JL". "JL", yeah. Yeah, those are really peculiar letters, they were kind of stylized, like a, uh, trademark or something. Would you, like those? Mm—hmm ° Why don't you draw the whole key as you perceived it? I, I had trouble with the- As best you can. ~part that is, goes in the lock. I kept, they kept changing ON Mees #36, would it be just as easy for us to go through the questions and then let you do your drawings in peace? Well, yeah, what did, whatever you~ Okay, I would, I would like, uh, one of the key. _ Okay Okay. The smooth metal plate you saw on the gate, red and - white- To the left. To the left? Yeah. Oh, that, that was on the gate. Oh, oh, okay, I'm SOrry But you saw a sign to the left? No, I saw a sign to the left of some kind that was red and white, but I saw a smooth plate that was about 18 inches wide and about 3 feet long near the top of the gate to my right as I was facing the building. Okay. But...nothing on that? I didn't see anything on it was smooth, and to the, just a few feet to the left, uh, above shoulder height, I think, about shoulder height going up was the white with some red on it. I tried to dope it out, what it was, see if there was any letters or anything but I couldn't make it out. No, no pictures or anything? Justee. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 2000/Qgg07 0G #36: #393 #36: 88R000300860001-5 It kept changing so much that there was patterns, but I couldn't make sense out. of it. Okay, and the plants you saw, they were off to the left of the gate? The what? You saw some vegetation? Oh, that was after I went through, I was heading toward the building, I think. Okay It was off to the left. Okay, guard. Male, fortyish, light toned, short sleeved shirt, dark trousers. By the way, he had a beard. Strong feeling of security. Feels...could not march by the desk without being stopped. Sense of restrictioneseeceee Oh, I'm sorry, was you, are you, I thought you were reading from your notes that's~- I, I, I, I was, I was: just- Oh, okay. -~gonna see if you could elaborate on that. Oh, okay, I, I didn't realize. I was just waitin'. Okay. I...afraid I was flying there. Will you read it again? Okay. Strong feeling of security. Feel you could not march by the, by the desk without being stopped, sense of restriction. ; : Uh, okay. I had the feeling that the person was under instruc tions to be courteous, to display a facade of helpfullness and courtesy. But that you'd probably get yourself blown away if you proceeded beyond. But the person put forth a very friendly helpful atmosphere. I don't know what to make of that, byt, uh, I felt underneath that that the person would, the person, or...passing that point was very dangerous. That's why I felt a restrictive feeling. I also felt there was a woman through that door behind himeccsecsscecs Okayeseceeee Wonder if he brings his girlfriend in? 12 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 2000/0810 #39: CGIAR PS5100788R000300860001-5 ae ay oe Hmm? Wonder if he brings his girlfriend in? I'll be damned if I know. I don't even know where that is. Okay, at that point when you went through the wall. To, to the left. Now you went up and you looked down the hallway, and then you went through the wall to your right. Oh, through that door? Mm~-hmm . Yeah, okay. Then you got white- Right through there, about from here to that wall there, there was a indentation to the right that had some kind of counter top or something with some equipment. It was dark colored, darker than the rest of the room. Say the light- ' Seen tem in there, there's some wires or something. Communications or like that, you commented on that. Yeah, I had a feeling I had. Okay, you said that you, you felt there was a specialized function in the room. Yeah. Because of the closet to my left. It'd be just to the left where that doorway comes ine Okay, I didn't see a bar and places to hang coats. I saw little cubbyholes and niches, and there was some long, tall narrow slots like you'd slip a briefing board or something like that into. Uh, and maybe a place for sticking attache cases or some— thing, you know. I don't know. But they were about 3, 4 inches wide, and.s..20, 25 inches tall. And there was some horizontal shelves, 8, 9 inches wide that had some items on it smaller than my PiStesees Okay, the..swhen, when you saw the closet immediately on your left, did it Jook like it extended a long way? . Deep in...and the left portion looked like it went back a meter, maybe four feet. And the slots looked like they're, Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
#39: #36: #39 #36: =60788R000300860001-5 uh, narrow, vertical things, boards or something, come right up to the door facing, was on the right. I just had a feel- ing they stopped back there about, about 20 or 30 inches. How, how tall? How tall were the slots? The whole closet. The vhole closet? Well, the whole closet looked like it was, you know, normal size of that door there, little wider. Maybe 8 feet tall? Yeah. Something like that. I don't think it went anywhere else, I think it just, uh...it was strange, I'd never seen anything like it. Okay. Then- what color was it, by the way? What? The closet. Hell, I don't know.....Tans and browns it seemed to be, warm tone. It wasn't a black or it wasn't a white, something as harsh as that. It was kind of...comfortable, neutral tones. Okay, then you walked over to the north wall and looked through the windows. I saw something in the middle of the room, oh, I saw a couch or something in the middle of the room. Sure it was couch? I felt reclining, and I kept looking and looking, trying to get from the awareness to the visual. And I saw, as a result of that effort, I saw a couch. A brown couch with three cushions. And it was either leather or, uh, (cough) .. Couldn't have been a stool type thing. I didn't see a stool. Oh, a stool I saw, but there's two of tem. It was over near the, towards the, if that's where the niche was, where the stuff was, they were further that way and about this position. And the couch thing I saw would be over there. And the closet would be there. See any ladders? No, I saw no ladders, but I saw couple stools over there and Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 20Qgi0gi02é #36 6 -00788R000300860001-5 Wee Straight vertical. Wait a MLNUGES socvensceccerssceses Thought there was a kind of a parapet, I guess that's the word you use, around the top. But I felt...I felt there was some slope to that roof. What in the hell I did it in that darn corner for? I guess I musta draw something else here. Anything else. Uh, why don't you label these things if you can, what, whatever- Oh, heck, I don't know what they were. They were just little, uhe ee Okay, where did you’ feel this antenna was located? Well, I was standing here...and I felt the antennae off to the left of where I was standing. Um...Okay. I just don't know where it was.in.(mumble)...ccescceces Okay, why don't you label the drawings there "roof™.+essess Okay e Anything else? (Mumbling). Didn't know where it was half the time. Very good. End of session. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5 TAB Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000300860001-5
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Approved coke ease 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00784R000300860001-5 ( cov HR dLose* 90 of dane 21) | pe ErEeETERTememee. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-ob7seRooodosso004.s (Fy