y “ Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #66: #O1: #662 #01: #663 #01: #663 #O1: #66: #O1: TRANSCRIPT HU-1075/8406/01 This will be a CENTER LANE Interview for 0900 hours 3 April 1984, This is the pre-session briefing. Okay, I have some pictures to show you here. First of all, this is a, the work this morning is an event style senario, I know what the inside of this building looks like and so forth and so on. So the problem isn't for you to describe the inside, although I may ask you a few things so we can orient. The problem is an event style senario. And by that, I mean that it's like a jigsaw puzzle of events, Okay. There are some events that we know about and so lL will be able to understand when you're talking to me about certain things, but there are some other possible events that we don't know about and we need to check on, so it's an event style senario. To that effect, I'm going to give you a very specific, in terms of hours and date and you will be targeting on the building in the photograph at that specific hour and time. Because we don't want the events of 1947 or we don't want the events of the year 2000, we want the events of that specific hour, Um, um. Now, if you'll look at this photograph, I have arranged it so that that is the front of the building and when you turn the page over you see the back of the building. That is the back of the building. Yes. Okay. Okay. Now I want to point out to you, as you look at it, that the building has an attic to it and than the floor below the attic where the top most, what we would call the occuppied floor, is the 10th floor. That's this floor. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #01: #66: #OL: #66: #O1: #66: #OL: Um, um. 10, the attic and than the 10th floor, and than 9, 8, 7, 6 and.on down, rather than trying to count from the bottom. The top is the attic and than the first occuppied floor is 10. Okay? Um, um. The main entrance is about in the middle of that building there. Um, um. The back of course is-- Okay. Okay. So we're looking at that building and I will give you a very specific time and hour. Okay? Okay. You may hold on to that picture. And we're going to put the tape recorder on pause for a moment. Continue now to relax and concentrate and as you are deeper and deeper relaxed, begin to focus your attention, mind your awareness on the building in the photograph I've shown you, focusing your attention solely and completely, the hours of midnight to 3:00 in the morning, 15 March 1984, at the building, midnight to 3:00 in the morning on 15 March 1984 and describe your perceptions to me. cece ee ee eee es eeeveel don't see much activity at this, see a few people, somebody cleaning carpets, most push vacuum cleaners, see were ee ee Focus solely on midnight to 3:00, midnight to 3:00. Someone with a ah...walking with a white oblong object under their arm,....in a hallway. cee ee He's kneeling down on their right knee looking or peering through a glass..... -like peering into a reflective surface. Say again. Like peering into a reflective surface,... square or screen of some kind. The right hand is on it and they're just kind of..... peeking at something or doing something with the right hand. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #66: #01: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #01: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: weeeeeeee The reflections like ah...back lights, ah... ....looks like smail spot lights over the shoulder. Okay, if I understand what you said correctly, you have a person walking down the hallway carrying an oblong object and he stops and kneels down and looks at something that--- --Different, different person, You're now on to a different person. Ah..let me start over. All right. Got someone cleaning, got someone walking in a hall with a white oblong rectangular object under their arm, right arm. They're passing ah...doors recessed in woodwork on left side. Having another person in a room kneeling in front of a rectangular object of metal, plastic, reflective surface. All right. This is the third person? Yes. Peering into a screen or a glass or something, right hand is on the object, sensation of back lights, like spots in ceiling or over his shoulder. Specific room has got ah.....shelves with...neatly stacked paper cardboard or something. ....-Ah..get an impression this machine is decorative, but not decorative. eens Okay, I need to slow down a minute and get some particulars. Let's go back to the person number 2, where the person walking in the hallway. Okay. Describe this person, their dress and so forth. weeeeee Wearing a charcoal gray suit, no tie, recently removed the tie, in any event, ah..has a coat, beige color coat over left arm. Ah....caucasian, mustache, 5' 7", Okay. Now let's move to the third person, the person who looks into the reflective surface. Describe him to me. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 3
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #O1: #66: #O1: #66; #O1: #66: #OL: #66: #O1: #66: 37, 38 years of age, ..ah..wrinkly eyes, like around the outside edges. Ah...clean shaven, black hair or very dark brown, probably dark brown or mixed, ah...hair's full, covers the edges of the ears,... heavy, heavier than normal, heavy set. He's dressed? Ah....see a light jacket over ah..off colored shirt, dark pants. Okay. Now, let's do some movement exercises in time, so we get a very specific focus here. Okay, thinking now about person number 2 walking down a hall, and person number 3 looking into some sort of panel and lighting and so forth, I want the time window just before this, let's see if there's anybody else, the time window just before this. seecveeevesse- Get an impression of someone dressed very well, just see ah..someone coming in a different kind of entrance, it's like walking down instead of up, coming down a hall, not removing his overcoat, leaning to the right into a doorway, ah..elevator, door opens right to left, the outside, Goes to...eighth or ninth floor. saeco Puts a key into a metal door of some kind. Goes in and makes left into another room, turns overhead lights on, .....pulling down on a handle or something and he apparently is putting something in his desk, taking something else, wee ee weeoes And he leaves the same way he came in, ..very quick, very direct. Okay, if I understand what you said now, a man, first of all you said somebody very well dressed, then you talked about a man that doesn't take off his overcoat, is this the same person. All the same person. All right. Now, LI want you to describe to me, again, this person comes in somehow through an elevator-- No, he comes in through a different door from the entry. A different door than the entry. ' Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 4
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #01: #66: #O1: #66: #OL1: #66; #01: #66; #01: #66; It's like a side door that goes down the steps instead up the steps. All right and then what happens? Then he comes, and then I see him in the hall, going down a side hall. We kind of jump a little bit and your next impression is in a hall, all right, go on. And I move behind him to follow him and he makes a right which is, if he had come in the front entrance it would be somewhere to the right of the front entrance. There's a hall, he's in the hall, before he gets to the front entrance, he leans right to enter an elevator that opens from the right to the left to the outside. He enters the elevator and goes to the eighth or ninth floor, the eighth floor. I next see him entering a short hall, inserting a key in a metal door, making a left as he enters that door, to an office or something on the left and turns overhead lights on. Ah..goes diagonally across that room. Okay, stop. Describe the room. ..See tables of some kind, higher than normal, see desk, or not a desk, but a lower, lower table, see ah..some kind of equipment to the left, on the table, See....stacks of something, like shelves stacks on table to right. Keep getting an impression of shelving or something. First inclination is to put equipment on it but I can't. It's like stacks of something, paper. Ah..... It's very cluttered room, see a map, ...Is impression it's not a normally cluttered room, but at this time it's a cluttered room. Okay, now tell me more about this-- --Like there's things left out, things unrolled, things...specifically set and laid around and then what appears to be disorderly, but it's really an otderly fashion, research type fashion. If I worked there, I would know where to go in the room to find what I wanted, but if it was you, like you're observing it now, it looks cluttered? Is that a correct analogy? Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 5
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #OL1: #663 #O1: #66: #OL: #66: #01: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66; #O1: #66: Um, yes and no. Yes in that regard but additionally it's like room use is modified because of temporary occupancy with other people. Okay, there's a flavor of something-- Overlaid, over, yes. All right. Now I want you to regain your focus and concentration and return to this individual and 4 tell me more about what he does as he enters this room. Just a minute. Yes, take a moment to regain your concentration, weeeeeee-He just goes straight diagonally across the room to a... high level safe or cabinet, I don't think it's a safe because he just clips the handle down in a fashion that it opens. And..takes something from his pocket and puts it in. Okay, stop. Focus on the object. we aueceeee Lt just looks like a ah....it's like the size of a book of matches, it looks like a book of matches, it looks soft, black, there's paper there though too, I see paper. Paper where? In his hand, it's like wrapped around it, it has something to do with paper. Okay. You used some conditional words, like it's like this and it's like that, let's go back again and see if we can't get down to the raw data, the raw perceptions of the elements of this thing. It might not make any sense, but maybe we can figure it out later. Okay, just a minute. ....ePaper folded, soft, black plastic, soft, smooth, no corners, object size of a book of matches, um........thin copper wire ......on left corner of a drawer....,that's all I get. Okay. Now, tefocus on the individual and follow his activities. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #01: #663 #01: #66: #Ol1: #66: #O1; #66: #01: #66: #01: #66: #O1: #66: #01: He leaves ..the same way he came in Okay. Very direct, very quick. All right, now I have a, I want to move in time to a specific area in the building and specific time to do some verifications. Um, um. Okay, at 1215 hours, that 15 minutes after midnight, on the 9th floor, scan the 9th floor, at 15 minutes after midnight, 15 March 84, weeeveeveee Vust get an impression of a meeting room with 2, 3 people. ..--lt's like they're closing things up or closing things in their hands, snapping shut briefcases. Okay. Putting on coats. Let's go to a little different time window then, let's go to before midnight, 11 o'clock on the evening previous day, 9th floor scan. weeeeveeeee Just see a person coming out of a room and going down a hali and going into another room. Describe him. Ah, brown hair, sandy color hair, very light brown, close to 6 feet, ah..standard build, standard weight, ah..expensive watch, ah...41, 42 years of age, ah..square jaw,....sleeves rolled, long sleeve shirt, sleeves rolled up, with his tie, no jacket, light brown pants, ..... Okay. Now he goes into the room to talk to or a bigger guy,......-mmm..approximately the same age, maybe a little older, heavy, very heavy,....ah, shorter, some gray..in his hair, slightly darker hair....... Apparently they're, they're working late, late on something important. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 7
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #66: #O1: #66: #OL: #66: #OL1: #66: #OL: #66: #01: Okay. I want to change your focus now. My information says that, let's say previous to midnight in the very late hours of the night that there should be, to my best information, is that was only one person on the 9th floor which should have been a marine guard, but that, so I don't know whether or not my information is bad or whether we're having trouble focusing in a specific time, Because later in the evening other people did come into the area, okay. . Mmmm, this ah..is before the 15th, this is maybe earlier than that. Okay. So on the 15th, between the hours of midnight and 3 o'clock, you talked about some very interesting things going on, but aside from all that, there was an occurrence, an event, something happened that caused these other people to come in, focus on the very night, midnight to 3 in the morning on the 15th of March. See if you can tell us what it is that happened to cause these other people to come in. eee e creer eee eeeeseeveeese _L see ah... see somebody taking a...box off a table... and ah..clipping wires in the back..to do that. It's got sides, it's got handles in the front. And they're ah.. taking it. But I don't them getting caught or anything, I just see them taking. «.+eNow I see it being discovered missing, cause a door not supposed to be opened, is opened, ...-L see it's being removed from a ah,.like a communications area, this box. Okay, are you saying that during this time, something was removed? Being stolen, yes. Okay. But I don't see any discovery of a person, I just see the discovery of the missing object. Okay. You know, I don't see any alert action, I don't see Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 8
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #66: #OL1: #66: #OL: #66: #OL1: #66: #O1: #66: anybody running around chasing people, I just see someone opening an door and, or finding a door a ajar and looking and seeing something missing that should be there. Okay. In response to that is everyone coming. Okay, LI have no further questions. I would like now to give you just a few minutes of free time to explore beyond the confines of my questions and see if there is anything else that we need. sew eae weceeeeeee Kind of left with an impression of...ah...this object or this...piece of object that was stolen has got something to do with something else that's already been stolen, and I don't understand how to put that together. ...Like part of a system of something,...ah...necessary to steal this in order to ....understand or use what was stolen before. ~..+eL don't know, I don't know why I say that, it's just like......seems to be the apparent motive, Okay, we started out by looking at some particular activities during this period of time. And you talked about some people coming in and doing this and people walking down the hall and looking around and so forth and so on and people coming in and going and so forth. And then I asked you later to look, particularly, that there was something that happened here, something of significance that happened and ask you to explore the idea of something of significance happened. And if TI understand what you reported to me is that you say, someone stole something that had wires clipped to something. Um, um. And you've now gone on to say that it was important that they steal this because of what, what was your other? Because it's, it's... necessary to have this part or piece to understand of a primary theft that's occurred somewhere else or earlier. Okay and you yourself don't quite understand-- Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 9
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #01: I don't, it's just, it's like the only reason for this theft is the support of previous theft of something far more valuable or important. I, I don't understand, I keep getting very sophisticated electronic boxes keep jumping in my mind, but I, they're not things related to what we're working on, they're things related to a previous theft. #66: All right. Now-- #O1: I don't understand that. #66: Okay. It's necessary now to focus on this object, this thing that you perceive as being stolen from here, Tell me about that specific thing that you believe is stolen from here. #01: It's black and it's plastic, it has many, many holes in it, has adjustable or sliding pins that stick through it, sounds like a .....ah...some kind a..it's the paper seal or paper slide or on one side, Ah... Key, some kind of something keyhole, keylock or it's a special kind of insert for screwdriver, tool or something, I keep getting like a...custom kind of tool...that you stick into it now and then for some reason........-.and wires, get a bunch of wires, I don't know what they mean, they're just wires, spaghetti. #66: Okay. 1 believe you said before that, about clips or something? #O1: Yeah, there's ah...unspecified clips.. something eel see something being cut in order get this. And now I'm not sure if it's the wires or it's a piece of metal on the side or something. Something had to take this. to be cut #66: Okay. Now beyond the physical description of what it's made of and the pieces and things that it's made of. Go beyond this description and tell me what the function does. #O1: Wait just a minute. ee wee were ee ah...it per,..it performs an interface .... It's function that serially encodes or translates something. Get a picture of a stream of something, some information or data. I see it being reassembled or deassembled. rarer Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 10
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #66; #O1: 366: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #01: #66: #O1: #66: All right. Now when you first told me about this device, you told that there was something, wires were clipped and someone stole this. That's correct. Okay. I want you to address a very particular question and be very careful not to let me suggest anything to you. And if you can't deal with it because it's suggestions, then let me know. This object that you perceive as being stolen from this room, does it belong in this room, is it really part of everything that's there? cee ee wee aca ee eeeses No, it's ah..doesn't belong there normally. It's applied to the stuff there, afterwards. All right, now tell me the raw perception, you gave me some nice concluding statements, but I can tell that you got that information by looking at some data, describe that data that you've looked at to make those conclusive statements. Presented first with a picture of many boxes, all assembled with lines, like a wiring diagram and presented with picture of where this specific object goes and the wiring diagrams, then perceive that highlighted all other objects not highlighted as answer or response to, was it originally there with everything else? I...perceive that to mean no, that's it's aside and beyond or from everything else that is there. All right, then if I understand your perception, you let yourself conceive of everything that's there as being a singular unit. That's correct. And yet this was highlighted, like marked with highlighter pen, It wasn't there when I asked the question, what was there originally and is there now and should be there, I understand how you were able to answer that question, very good. Now, the question is is if in Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 11
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #O1: #66: #01: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #OL: #66: fact this thing that got stolen that night does not really belong with this, the other things in the room, how long has it been there? perce ere reese cere erste eee At least 45 days, possibly 2 months. Okay. That would be previous to the window of the 15th that you looked at? That's correct. Okay. If I understand your perception then that as best you can understand, it's been there maybe two months previous to the 15th. That's correct, All right. I have one last question for you then. Um, um. You found that something may have been stolen from this area, something that really wasn't supposed to be there to begin with. Um, um And on the 15th, now move to that building in present time, today, the 3rd of April. Ah. ece cee eee ee OKAY, Okay. Now, in this area where this thing was stolen, what's happening there now on the 3rd of April? se vecesveevevveselL See it being searched and stripped sesesesees Keep getting an impression of, full of people looking, and then full of people, not full of people, rather, It's only has people at when people are looking for something, rest of the time it's empty. Do I, in the present time window, I just realized that maybe because this place is on the other side of the world that the date 3 April might be a few hours away in the future for us. But besides that, am I understanding that you're saying that this room is not a normally occuppied room? Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 12
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #01; No, this is a normally occuppied room, different in that now it's not. #66: Okay. In the present time window, it's occuppied? #O1: That's correct. now being #66: Okay. In looking around yourself in the present time window, do you find this peculiar object that had been previously stolen? #01: rrr #66: Holding in the exact present window. #O1: -eeee-No, but I..ah.....i'm having trouble this because I see someone putting it down in that room. I don't perceive it there now, but I someone putting it down in that room. #66: Okay and you're having trouble, I think what you're telling me, is the idea of it being put down in that room is there, but you don't find right now. #O1: That's correct. #66: Okay. Now I have no further questions about this particular area or the events of the night question. I do have a series of photographs many rooms in the building that I would like to show you to see if you recognize any of one of those rooms, So at this time I'm going to put the tape recorder on hold and allow you to regain your present time awareness, #66: Okay, these are just interesting things looking at picture number 1. #O1: Okay. #66: You might pass them off and then come back, yourself a couple of stacks of interesting uninteresting. #01: Yeah, um, um, okay. That one is uninteresting. #663 Picture 4 uninteresting. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 13
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #O1: #66: #OL: #66: #O1: #66: #OL: #66: #01: #66: #OL: #66: #OL: #66: #01: #66; #OL: Yeah, these 3 so far, they relate to what is going on. Okay. Picture 4 and 5 are the same thing from different angles. Yeah. I've got pictures of a lot of doors which, some of which are the same doors, some of which are different doors, Um, um. Okay. Okay, picture #8 looks like the door when the guy came, you know, that was well dressed and everything and went straight to, you know, came through the door and hung a left and went straight into a room, this is the room that he went into, door 8, ‘ Okay, that looks like that kind of door? Yeah. Okay. We'll set that one aside. And this is inside that particular room, #9 is inside the door-- that looks like the one in 8. Yeah. That's just a blowup of this. of this yeah. Okay. That's uninteresting, I don't think it has anything to do with that. Okay, do you see anything associated with that? Oh, there's the shelves, now I know what all the garbage is. Okay, you have a memory recall then of picture 12. I have a memory recall of this. This is the room where everything is just piled up all over the place, that looks like a real mess all the time. Remember I said that the room that is cluttered but not cluttered-- Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 14
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #OL: #66; #01: #66: #O1: #66: #OL: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #O1: #66: #OL1: Okay you think that refers to picture 12? That refers to picture 12, yes. Okay. Yes, this is in picture 12 as well. This is in the same room. Picture 13? Picture 13 is in the same room. Seems the same kind of flavor, okay. Yes. That's exactly the shelf and everything that I was seeing. We'll back up a litle more. Yep, there's the maps on the wall, 14 again, same room, exact room. Don't have a feel for this, one way or the other. Okay, 15 doesn't-- It's probably an interior vault door of some kind, 15 doesn't mean anything to you? No, it doesn't mean anything. That's interesting, something interesting about, I want to go back to see, I'm going to let you shuffle through ali these until you get feelings about any other pictures at all. seeeeeeeThis one really rings a bell or something. Okay 18 seems be something familiar about it. 18, but I want to look at the rest of them before I, and this is co-located with it. Okay. That's picture 19 and 18 and picture 20. These are all co-located. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #66: #OL: «#66: #01: #663 #O1: #66: #01: #66: #OL: #66: #01: #66: These are familiar because of your MOS of past years or-- Yeah, possibly. That, believe it or not, is uninteresting to me. 21 is uninteresting? Yeah, doesn't mean any to me. And 22 is not material to the (mumble), I'll keep that right there 23. Disregard the guy in the picture, he's one of the good guys. Yeah, okay, looks familiar. Okay, we finished the pictures now and I would like you to go shuffle through them and see how you feel now that you've had initial impressions, kind of shuffle through and see how you feel about them. and again, I might now have the picture of the particular problem area or it might be here. Ah,.........ePicture 12, 13 and 14 are definitely the jumble area with the shelves, and the maps and that sort thing and it's probably the area that was checked very heavily by a bunch of people afterwards. Picture 8, 9 and 10 is where the man who is well dressed went straight to and it could have been this cabinet, if it's diagonally across the room and left corner, he went straight to this cabinet and opened it but he didn’t take anything out. Okay, this is the well dressed man that put something from his pocket into, and he might even put it into this safe here or whatever. That's correct. And he came and he left and that's all you got. That's all he did, right, exactly. Now, 18 has something to do with the problem, but it is not this 18. By the problem, we mean the thing that was stolen? Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 16
Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 #01: Yes, yes, it has something to do with this brown, white trimmed box here with the combination dial lock on it, but it's not this one. The motive for theft or whatever this thing is has to do with this particular object. And I just, I get more than just this one here, I'm getting a bunch of them. getting like, there's a motive there and something to do with another one. #66: Okay. But you have definite recollection on the area, 12, 13 and 14? #O1: Yeah, 12, 13 and 14 is where, you know,-- #66: The jumbled room with maps-- #O1: --yeah, jumbled room with maps-- #66: --And picture 18 you feel that the theft something to that thing, but not necessarily that one. #O1: But not necessarily that one, right, exactly. #66: Okay. #OL1: So, hope that helped. #66: That's fine. Okay, we'll put the tape recorder on hold and that will do it. Approved For Release 2000/08/08 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0 17