+30 Approved For Release 2S Reber 26-00788F000900490001-0 #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: I'll go with the 12 o'clock as North. And how far away is this water? It is right up . . it is nestled in the gently, gentle sloping side of this. It is not off in the distance. It is like down the slope and Slightly out on a plain. It is from. . its a half mile from the bottom. . . half mile from the bottom-most edge. Its . . from peak out to actually over top of it I'd say its like 3% miles. 3 miles 3% miles. If I was to draw a straight line out from the peak and then drop it down into this water. Okay. In looking over the top of the water, looking down at it, describe its shape, shape of the body of water and describe the size. PAUSE I want to say that from the peak looking at it it looks like a cone. With the point. . Generally, its shaped like a smooth cone and the point of it is pointing at about North. And its pointing right along that same 12 o'clock axis. The big base of it is up here closer to the . . closer to the high thing. And its size is . . its not real big, its . . Ah, I'd say & mile by long by a quarter of a mile wide or womething like that at the base. * mile long; 4% mile wide and then tapering down as it goes away. Okay. Now, describe to me the feeling or emotion about this place. Are you happy at this place? Are you sad at this place? How does this place feel to you? The water or mountain? Or the area? I don't follow what you mean, #28. Okay. Do you think that this place is a nice place to be? Someplace you would go and visit; someplace other people go and visit? Do you think its a place people stay away from? No. What's the atmosphere of this place, the general feeling about the place? Do you have any feelings about this place? 7 Approved For Release 200310011 EAR fe 07esro00s00490001-0
Approved For Release 2003/0 P96-00788R000900490001-0 #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: Well no, not really. I hesitate to draw any- thing. I've been looking at this place from four miles high and everything. I haven't yet been able to touch down on this thing. Except one fleeting moment imagining I was on the peak of this and that was it. So-called peak. It wasn't a peak it was flattened. But not extra- ordinarily large either. Certainly not a landing pad or anything. Then, when you stand on top of this, you say this is the highest point around. Can you see anything else looking out? PAUSE Haze. Rolling. That one feature that was about at two, three o'clock is there. I get the feeling that there is something now, to my back which is 12 o'clock but I get the feeling that there is darn near very little that anywhere else direction on the compass as far as similar highness. All right. It seems that it just drops off. If I look South. Okay. It seems like it drops off rapidly. Okay. I mean I'm talking horizon. Yes. The horizon seems almost flat. But if I swing around to my left which is almost three o'clock Yes. Then it looks like that bump there that I told you about before. The rounded knoll which is not as high. As I looked down at 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, I have my saddle going out about the one o'clock direction, but there's a gap between it and this mountain at three. PAUSE 8 Approved For Release 2003/0991. -00788R000900490001-0
+35 Approved For Release soos SSE ED s-007e8R000%00480001- #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: But looking to 12 o'clock, its like there are . there is rollingness, there is a bumpy horizon and there's bumps inbetween me and that horizon. Where as that's not the way it is at 6 o'clock. At 6 o'clock it just sort of becomes flat. And what about the West at nine o'clock? PAUSE To the West I see . .I see .. looking at 9 o'clock I can't . . . To the West I'd say that there are two within my view that are bumps between myself and the horizon. But its like I'm on the Southern edge of a range or a line or . . the Southern end of it and these things protrude down only way on the other side of the lake. They come down, they're out there on the other side of the lake, they come down to maybe 10 o'clock. I can see two of them. But that's. . they don't go any farther South. Okay. I want you to do one thing for me here. I want you to put yourself... There's water on... Say? There's water on from three to one. It seems like that just . . When I look at, now on the top, look- ing at three o'clock down, its very steep. There's water down there. On the other side of the water is this more gentle hill formality. With stuff on it. And that water curves around right. . I'd say that curves around right with the one o'clock, on the outside of the one o'clock saddle or one o'clock spur rather than disappears off in the one o'clock direction. But its water with white in it. I want to say its got white in it. But it looks like its rapids like. Steep gorged rapids. Narrow and fast. Okay, what was the thing you needed? Okay now before you draw I want you to do one more thing for me. It may clarify this area. I want you to stand at thepeak of the mountain and I want you to look in the Easterly direction and I want you to float out at the same altitude that you are but more out five miles East. Move out fives miles East. - - and look down and describe what's there. PAUSE 9 Approved For Release 2003/09/ RP: 6-00788R000900490001-0
+38 Approved For Release onsite EU tel cc-oorsenooosooseooo. #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: Humph! PAUSE I'd say . . . it looks like there's a cluster of glimmering white inbetween dark. Come down from your altitude then, down closer. PAUSE I'm settling down. PAUSE I want to say a little town or something that's spread linearly. . . longer than it is wide. In a notch between two trees or two hilles of some sort in the valley spread long in that valley. Curving. Left. It looks like that anyway. All right now while you're there, while you're there, turn around and look back at the target area. Right. And describe what you see. PAUSE I see the upper part of a mountain peak obscured by this rounded thing still inbetween me and where Iam. But the upper part of it is bright, bright - its reflective; its light but the thing in the foreground that's rounded is dark. PAUSE That's about it. And what is this rounded thing that obscures you? That's the hill that runs at three o'clock. So you had me run East. You ran me over three o'clock which is the hill. All right. So, you're... So I'm still getting the top part of this mountain. 10 Approved For Release 200 meget et eete-00728R000900490001-0
Approved For Release 20 rere eocos00480001- #28: #31: #28: #31: All right. Let me see if I understand you correctly. There is some small, smaller hill in your view before you look back to what you perceived as the target? Right. Okay and this thing in the distance that's the target now move toward the hilltop that seemed to be in your way, move along to the hilltop that seemed to be in your way and from that point look at what you thought was the target and describe it to me. PAUSE Okay, from that view, it looks like well its damn near a 90 degree triangle. Stood on its hypotenuse bent in the middle of it away from me. The long side of the triangle comes up the peak. And then the short leg of the triangle curves down and then away and its steeper than the long side. That side curves away from me which is into the mountain and then it curves up like that and then out and I think that's where the water is, the white water. PAUSE I don't seem to get a tree line or anything like that on this sucker. In fact when I was over describing a gentle slope, over on the lake side, I wanted to say sparse vegetation. Like scraggly shit, like mesky here, prickly pear cactus there, but very sparse. But looking at this side I don't get a tree line and the reason I don't get a tree line is 'cause its the steep side. You got me looking at the East side which is the steep cliff side. Which is that grayness that I first started talking about. That steeply sloping granite or shale which just very precipitous almost. The other two sides seem to slope out a little bit differently and therefore might be able to support some sort of - - But that's the thing that kills me about it is that everything around it seems to have bushes on it. Unless I'm just all screwed up. You know, all the other stuff. The other hills, the hill at three o'clock seems to have trees on it. But it is lower. There seem to be trees on the other side of the lake. Maybe this thing is just a tree line and that's why I'm not getting any trees on it. PAUSE li Approved For Release 2003/0 RAED Base0078872000900490001-0
Approved For Release SRE BRER nccc-oorsercoosoous0001 -0 #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: I don't know how to word this; if it sounds weird stay with it ‘cause its probably right. Okay, is there anything else you want to look at before you try to draw? PAUSE What is the thing that impresses you most about this target? Its barenness. Relative barenness. Gee, I'd like to put some sort of a tower on it, but I just don't, you know, radio or microwave tower - anything that would make it stick out but that's the uncharacter- istic barenness of this mountain, I guess, is strik- ing me as peculiar. And what is it that makes it baren? PAUSE I think what makes it baren is what its made of. It doesn't have very good soil. One side of it is too steep to have trees. Its wind swept. On another side. There's water around it, but I just get the impression that is just too. . that what. . its just dry. Its just too damn dry. I'd like to put a snow cap on it too, but I'm not going to. I think I'm starting to play around too much. Maybe I ought to draw. Okay, why don't you go ahead and sit up and draw. PAUSE TURN OVER TAPE If I had to draw this thing I'd draw it this shape. From a vertical. Looking down on the top? Looking down on the top of it. This is the one that has the bump on it though, yeah, that's the one that has the bump on it. It has like a bump on it there okay. And then out here away from this thing is where this .. that's water. And then, on this side, was just a gentle hill. 12 5 j Approved For Release a: bt ist 96-00788R000900490001-0
Approved For Release 2003 hat DP96-00788R000900490001-0 #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: Where is the high peak in there? Right there. In the center where you put the "X"? Right. And this is water. Okay. This is very steep in here, right. In and under that "X" that's very steep. Contour lines here. And then these contour lines begin to get .. they begin to go out a little bit. Now this side you can see is much less steep. The contour lines would be, you know, much farther apart. Here is about inbetween them both, contour interval. Still steep but not. Now over here you can see this is just a nice little knoll. Okay. PAUSE Now when I asked you to look to and move to the East... Okay, this way, directly right across the sketch. Okay. Okay and I wanted . . there are . . these you know, these contour, these would be interlocking, you know. Um hm. Okay. And then. . How do I want to put this one? Okay. If that's the five miles there, okay, then we end up with another. . In here is this valley I was telling you about. And I got the impression that. . see if forks, turns to the left. Its not that long. Its up in what would be a valley and this is a town. Surprisingly, I'll write it down here. . Surprisingly enough when you asked me what it was down here. . . Um hm. My mind might be playing a little trick on me. Ha ha ha. But that's what. . small hill believe it or not. Because it looked small? Approved For Release 2003/09/11 : CIA- Te? ri 17 65RO000900490001-0
Approved For Release 2G bers. corssroc0s004s0001.0 #31; #28: #31: I don't know. I don't know why. PAUSE But that's the word that . PAUSE Okay, everything East of the mountain has got. . this vegetation, okay. And town. And vegetation. Its dark. Okay. And up here darkness like... vegetation. PAUSE Ummm! The rapids. . the . . Okay. That's where I was talking about this rapid, with white. Is in there. That curves right in and under the bottom of that what would be the cliff face, the darkness. The dark triangle is in here see. And then it goes off to the what's Northeast. Okay. Draw me a picture of what you first saw your first image about this up here when you talked about this dark triangle. You said you saw that from an oblique or something. I saw that from a high oblique from the South. Okay. And here is what I had. I had ..I said the line came down in the foreground. Okay. This is foreground. That's this peak line here and it went off longer in that direction and then over here was another line. Okay. And the basic dark triangle was this side here. Which is the East side. PAUSE Then I got this shape. Okay. Which was a vertical. And this is a vertical. And that's when I realized that this was still dark in there. Okay. And . . okay, the other thing I said was some sort of a... It just doesn't want to cooperate with me today does it? Okay, that’s a dark line there. I said there was dark, looked like there was dark around on the other side of what I thought was the water. Okay. I'11l put that in there. Okay, that was with me to begin with. PAUSE Do you want me to give you the four cardinal directions? Horizon or whatever? 14 Approved For Release 2003/09/11 : ctetefet Hpefeer000900490001-0
Approved For Release 2003 RFE EAREE GP 06-00728R000800490001-0 #28: Okay, standing on the peak? #31: Yeah. Oh, okay. PAUSE This is just that, that type of a terrain. Its dark. And the image is that from the foreground disappearing into the distance here is this. . is this spur, okay. Ridge line, whatever. PAUSE And then this gets much steeper here. . as it comes in. That's actually. . That's not true because that's farther away you see. Its farther down. Northeast. . is . . just like a Sugar Loaf Mountain. That was the one that kept getting in my way. Okay. And it was tree covered. Okay. #28: Um hm. #31: So, it was just a flat horizon. Dull tan. Browns. Haze. Okay. #28: Okay. #31: West is the . . West is the funny one because you end up with this . . two ridges but down here you hve this, okay. PAUSE And then, I said these mountains came down to about 10 o'clock. It was like there was round shapes. There were two particular round shapes on the horizon. That was like the last Southern intrusion of whatever it is okay. But they weren't particularly noteworthy. No particular features on them. PAUSE And West was the way. Okay. PAUSE Okay and then the horizon. #28: What do you feel? What do you sense when you think about activity at this location? PAUSE 15 | Approved For Release 2003/09/11 : cms FER o0900420001-0
Approved For Release TORE ee frorze-007e2R000900490001.0 #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: #28: #31: You know, I could throw anything in there but I was really detached from it. I don't have any feeling of recreation. Don't have any feeling for hunting. Just overpowering barenness. Like nobody ever goes there - on top of the mountain. You know. And why don’t they go there? Just 'cause there's nothing there. You know. I don 't know. Maybe they can't get there. Maybe there's nobody around that wants to get there. You know, that would bother to get there. PAUSE I'd like you to kind of review for a minute now and I've got one last... Another drawing? Yeah. I want to show you this thing from the .. okay, into the foreground looking South. Uh huh. From Northwest corner. Lake. Okay. This should be more gentle I guess. Okay. Here's a ridge. Okay. PAUSE And here, in the very foreground is the tree line and this . . Well, it looks square in this sketch because of the perspective cause of course the upper end of it appears bigger than the back of it and it ends out being just about square. But really its almost, its triangular shaped, but I'm looking at it from this way. And sketch West, I'm looking at it from the Northeast. Northwest okay. Looking Over it back into this direction here. Okay. Its that angle right across there. I'11 draw a little line on my first, on my composite. And that is. . PAUSE Okay. That is the view from 7. PAUSE 16 Approved For Release 2003/09/11 : cmp fefeR Fedbixcaaas0190001-0
Approved For Release soca eee ecc-corsercoos0oss0001-0 #31: I'll tell you something, Geo's are definitely different. #28: Okay. I'd like you to go and... #31: You don't know where you are. Ha ha ha. #28: That's the idea. #31: I don't know where I am. Was. #28: Ummm. I'd like to kind of in short phrases or one word descriptions, just in broad brush concept give me your overall. . if I was to ask you what is your target, what would be your one word phrases or des- criptions of what is your target? #31: I'll tell you its a piece of key terrain on the Southern end of a mountain range. Or a mountain cluster of some sort that overlooks a valley to the South and dominates all terrain to the North. Okay. It has water. It has rocky sides. With only one or two feasible avenues of approach. Okay. #28: Okay. #31: And once you've got that terrain, I had the feeling that it is a dominant piece of terrain but not. . Its not like it sticks four miles up above every- thing else, its like its maybe a couple of thousand feet above everything else. But once you're up there, you know, you can see all over. The feeling I had was like some of the just general atmosphere was like some of the places in the San Pedro Valley in Arizona. You know, that type of a thing. You know, where you have . . you just. . you may have one mountain that's surrounded by other mountains and they're not particularly interesting except that one may be bigger than the other. #28: Okay. #31: Slightly bigger than the other. #28: Okay, is there anything that you want to add? I like that general description you gave. That was an interesting description. #28: Well, to add, the only thing I could see, unless unless, unless things I did not see are associated with that terrain. Like the odd shape of that lake could mean that there was a resevoir or dam feature. But I didn't see a damn; I didn't see anything but its just , you know, that type thing. Approved For Release 2003/09/11 : G RTS GG SRE II00900490001-0 RO f\
Approved For Release 20 RFR EE Fo” 2-00783R000800480001-0 #28: Okay. #31: All I can say right now is that its a piece of key terrain. #28: Okay. Is there anything you want to add then? #31: No. #28: Okay. 18 Approved For Release 2003/09) ial aig 728R:000900490001-0
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