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#07:
I don't know.
This.... I didn't see the near edge.
I
don't know... in
a... from the
top,
I don't remember
seeing
the,
the far edge of
the building.
So I'm going
to just show that as broken away.
I
just doh't know
what it looked like.
I
just didn't see it
Uh... these little things are trucks here....
I was under
the one with an arrow,
and lying under there
I
could see between these buildings and this fence up here.
I
thought the railroad was off
in this direction,
somewhere.
Somewhere behind,
somewhere behind the sawtooth building.
This area seemed
to be cement.
I thought the cement went
I
remember noticing
it went almost to the fence.
I
don't know if
it actually went to the fence
or not,
but
I
know there's an awful
lot of cement up
in there.
#31:
Okay.
Would you please label the sawtooth building and
the other building there.
The aluminum building,
I guess
it
is.
#07:
Sawtooth being this thing here.
I guess
a sawtooth is
actually more like that,
but
oh,
both of these
buildings appeared
to be metal,
corrigated,
I
guess,
or
something.
This one seemed like
it had been sprayed with
something.
It was
a gray rather than
a shinny metal
like.
There were vehicles along this road,
by the way,
that were
moving
in that direction.
That's about all
I
can remember.
#31:
Okay.
Now,
before we move
on
to the next one
then,
and my
notes say you look into the building onto the right,
but
by this time you had moved out from under the truck.
#07:
Yeah.
I moved up above this point right here where
I was
directly over the point marked by
an
X.
I
came down,
I
came down
in some altitude and some doors were opened here
or something,
and
I looked across through the building
in
the direction
of the arrow from the
X.
That's what
it
was.
These damn doors were open.
#31:
All right.
Okay.
And then when you looked
in,
the next
thing
I have
is you
had the silhouette feeling and you
were attracted
to one of the
silhouette!? which you began
toexamine.
So we can work on that from now
on.
... .i.
.
.
.
Would you want
to do
a layout?
If you have enough data to
do an interior type layout of the structure,
that's fine.
#07:
In here somewhere
I
remember there's some big,
big posts,
and there was windows.
Back
in the back,
and
I
could see
the silhouette's of something with several gun tubes
on
it
sitting over
in
the background.
It was tracked,
and there
was quite
a few of these sitting around.
In here,
somewhere
close
to the front was
<r~~
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#07 :
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
I
don't know the position of hatches and
what have you
here,
but
I
saw this big,
big tube.
Bigger
in the center.
It was
a rather clean
tube.
It didn't have anything on
the end of
it.
But,
this was all readily black in here.
All
right.
Now,
we can move right to the vehicle.
Let's
see.
To refresh your memory here. ...... .ummmmmmm
ba.
. ,ba. . .ba.
. .ba.
.
.
Okay.
Some sort of a..... .just
to
start out let me
go through here real quick and then you
can take the sketching as
it comes.
Plastic cables going
to the
tank.
You had the long
tube,
unusually
long tube
pointing
up
.
. .blop.
. .blop. . .blop.
. .45 degrees.
Your
relative position at this time was about
2 feet away from
the foreward port side.
Uh...you were asked
to focus on
the road wheels,
and you had big smooth casting,
hubs,
smooth,
adjacent wheel set back near
the tank hull.
You're
looking at one
wheel,
apparently,
and the adjacent one
seemed like
it was set back
Oh Yeah!
uh.....then
later on you had every other road wheel
peer
set back
a little,
and
a feeling that they overlap
a little.
Let's take
a shot,
then,
at what would be the
track area of the
vehicle,
as you looked at
it,
and we'll
do
a composite of the vehicle later,
but we'll take
it piece
by piece
as we go through.
Okay.
Okay.
You put your hands
on
it. ...how large... you said
4,
4% feet
high.
.
.
.
Jesus!
Are tanks that big?
number casts
in the room... 9
to
10 digits.
. .last one
looks like an
L raised.
. .letters.
. .casts and iron
front idler thing appears to have sprockets
in board and
out board. .. .tracks seems like track... is almost
30 inches
wide,
or something like
that.
I
said idler?
It seemed like idler.
Front,
idler thing.
That's my
I,
I
think it probably
isn' t
idler,.
I
think that front
support ... roller ..... I don't know what it's called,
but
I don't think it's an idler.
Well,
well,
it could be the
angle
I
saw. ......... I
think it went down
a little lower
than
that,
but. ..... .this hub seemed kind
of funny;
smooth,
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rather than coming out.... like
it had a plate bolted on
the end of
it.
Sharp edges.
Corners seemed rounded.
Which,
at the
time,
struck me as
I thought odd
Uh.
.
. .
. .can' t seem to draw
a circle,
so
I won't even
try.
I know this track must not stick out that
far.
From the
way
it appears there,
it seems like an awful........
Up here,
I
remember seeing. ..... .1 don't know how this
was here. ...... .but,
this was some kind of..... I know
skirt.
I don't know.
I
guess there was
a wheel right here
where this curves
up.
Must have been.
#31:
Okay.
#07:
But,
in the way
I was looking at
it,
it looked to me like
this wheel was set in further than this one.
#31:
Okay,
while we're here,
why don't we get this
#07:
I've never seen one like that.
I
don't think they make
them that way.
It could have been
#31:
Yeah.
Okay.
While we're here,
why don't we do some
lettering
in there
for
me.
The approximate size of the
wheel..... uh
your approximate depth of the track,
and
that you do have
a feeling
#07:
How high did
I say this was?
#31:
....yeah,
well,
you have
4,
4% feet on the notes,
so would
you put that on there.
And,
the depth of the track,
you
had almost 30 inches wide
...was your statement.
Okay.
And,
did you have there
you didn't mention
it in the
transcript.
Did you have a feeling for the depth of the
skirt?
#07:
The depth
the thickness?
#31:
No.
The..... how far
#07:
I really thought it came down
about where the arrow is
on the 4 to 4 point
feet.
Down
to about that far.
I've
drawn
it higher because
I'm having trouble with the perspective
here,
but
I
thought the skirt was just
I could see the
hubs.
So,
I
felt this skirt was
a little above the hubs,
not as high as
I've got it here.
#31:
Okay.
Why don't you put an arrow there and just make
a note,
skirt protrudes farther down
to just above hub
or words
to that affect.
#07:
How do you spell position?
#31:
P-o-s-t-i-o-n.
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#07:
Just like
it sounds,
huh.
#31:
Okay.
One last note for this sketch.
Now this front
#07:
Oh,
I
think. ... .didn't
I
say that this was about
3 inches
thick?
#31:
Okay. ....... .okay .
To clarify
it for me,
you had the front
idler thing... what you had called the front idler thing
appears to have sprockets
in board and out board.
#07 :
Ummmmrn
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
Okay.
I didn't know if that was what you were referring
to.
Uh...It,
it was alot clearer when
I was looking at
it.
I think
I could see all little casting lines... uh.
The
teeth seemed
a little thicker,
whiter out near the edge
than they were in
board..
Had alot of detail,
but
I can't
draw it.
Is there anything else about that?
No.
I
don't think so.
When we were talking about the
number of road wheels you were talking about them.
I tried to count them,
and
I don't know why.
It was like
counting very small measurements that are alike
I'd lose
my position.
I know this makes no sense,
but
I
tried
3,
at least 3 times to count
'em,
and
I'd lose my place,
and
I
said,
whoops,
did
I
count that one,
and then,
all
of
a sudden.
. .uh.
. .maybe you said something. .. I
came up
with
a figure
8,
I
think.
I
don't know if that's
you know.
Ahhh. .. .that's what you came up with.
All right.
For
sketch
4.
You were asked to move
to the front of
the
vehicle,
and. ...let me see... I 'll
go through my notes again.
Smooth,
uncluttered slope of
30 to 35 degrees from the
horizontal.
Fenders,
some kind of fenders,
and then some
kind of crude looking light under protective
grill;
fenders
appear
to stick out
a little
in front of the bow or
wheels.
You said wheels and bow simultaneously .. .or not
simultaneously,
but close together there.
The bow line
was straight across;
under belly plate comes up
to meet
the other,
but it's something welded on like a hitch of
some kind;
two big slabs of metal with
a hole
in
it.
What extends in front of
the bow?
#31:
You said fenders appear to stick out
a little.
You said
over the wheels and then you said
in front of the bow.
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#31:
So,
I don't know.
#07:
Yeah.
Okay.
Same thing.
#31:
Okay.
So
if we could have
a sketch of that frontal....
we'll just worry about the hull aspect of
it,
unless
you had the shot of turret,
turret-hull combination
from that perspective....
#07:
I never really got
I
kept,
you know,
I was aware
of
it,
and... a peripheral vision,
but,
gee,
I'm going
to
go up there when
I
get through this,
I'm going
to
go
up and look at that.
I wanted
to crawl in the darn thing...
#31:
#66
wouldn't let you.
Ha.-, .ha.
. .ha. .
.
#07:
No.
I
think
I asked to crawl under something.
Did
I
or
didn't
I?
#66:
Not audible.
#07 :
I
thought up here there was a slight break line along
here.
I don't know
the detail here,
but
That okay?
I plated this line
up here.
. .uh.
. .What's, this
plate called?
#31 :
I don't know.
Just label it what,
you know... I
guess
it's upper bow,
or something like that.
I
don't know
what
it would
be called,
but......
#07:
Felt very strong about this,
and it confused me.
I don't
know.
Maybe,
I was directed
to something else,
but,
I
kept trying to figure it out.
It bothered me.
I
think,
at one time,
I
thought
it was like two plates welded
together rather than the rounded line you see
in
a casting.
I
quess the strong thing that came out of that,
toying
with that
(mumbling)
there,
was that
I didn't think it was
a casting.
Is that about the flavor
of
that?
I think
that's what
I finally
came
up with.
I don't know.
#31:
Okay.
While we're talking about that edge,
did you....
_
they're welded,
but,
am
I
right when
I
say they are welded
at an angle,
then.
#07:
It didn't.
. .this line didn't appear
to go on
up.
#31:
Straight up.
#07:
Straight
up.
There appeared to be
a slight break
in there
that flattened out
a little.
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#31 ;
#07 ;
#31 :
#07 :
31 :
#07 :
#31 :
#07 :
#31 :
#07
:
#31 :
#07 :
#31
#07 :
I.E.
About what degree of break.
Do you have any
feel for that?
No.
I
felt this top plate was not horizontal with the
ground.
Still had a little slope
to
it,
I
thought.
But,
not this much as the front portion.
Okay.
How about there right where you have your finger?
Where?
There?
Right on the front line.
The center. ... .no,
down,
the
next line down there.
Is
that. ... .what is your feeling
for that line across the bow?
There was some detail across there,
and
I started to look
at
it,
and something happened,
and started getting conflic mg
data that
I was trying to understand,
and all this stuff was
shooting at me,
and
I
thought,
well,
gee,
that looks like
a rivet.
And,
I
said,
No.
They don't rivet.
You
know.
They don't rivet,
but there was some kind of detail
I was
trying to see
It was like
I was talking to someone
and trying to hold
a conversation but there was something
over here very interesting.
It walked by and
I'm
trying
to see what that
is without losing my place in the conversa-
tion,
and there was something about this edge,
a detail,
that
I
thought,
well,
gee,
I know that,
I
can know what
that is,
but
I
didn't get
it.
But,
there seemed
there was some detail.
. .edges coming together.
There was
some kind of detail,
and
I couldn't figure what
it was.
Okay.
You were going to.........
That's the longest
...unresolved
detail area along that edge.
Oh!
These are those
funny things hanging down
the bottom.
The hitch
The hitch hutch,
yeah.
Hitch things.....! don't know if they are hitches.
I don't
know what the hell they are,
but
Yeah.
Ummm.
.
.
. just before
I
started
to talk about that
other line you were going
to say something more about
that upper sloping angle there.
Uh...I
can vaguely see portion of
the turret here and
I
thought
it was
...the front portion,
I thought was pretty
rakishly
sloped,
and
I was asking myself,
why
is
it sloped
differently,
different angles on sides where
I was standing
I
thought the front portion was sloped different than the
side.
It seemed rather simple,
and
basic shapes.
Not
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r.
alot
of clutter
on
it.
Maybe cluttered crap hadn't been
put on
it yet,
but
it seemed rather simple.
I
thought
the slope of
the front of the turret was important,
and
I thought it different from the sides.
It don't make
much sense
to
me.
I
vi/ould think,
you
know,
you ne^d
the protection of sides as well as you do the front,
but
I thought
the front slope of the turret was different
from the sides,
and
I
thought that was important.
#31:
As
in different
in what respect?
#07:
Well,
the angle.
#31
Is....
#07:
I,
I thought the angle of
the front of the turret was
closer
to the angle of this front plate here
on the
tank.
Whereas
the sides,
I
thought was more vertical.
They
did
not achieve the same angle,
and
I was aware of this
difference,
and
I
thought,
well,
gee,
you need the same
protection
in
all directions.
Why
didn't they
do that?
If that's
a case
of angles for protection.
#31:
All
right.
Great.
#07:
What number
is that?
#31:
That's
four,
and we're going on to five.
Okay.
What
I think is
the best way for us
to tackle
the
next part here
is when #66 asked you to cut away portions
of
the frontal plate so that you can see the interior of
it.
And,
he asked you to describe how thick
it was,
what
it was made
of,
and how it was constructed.
#07:
I'm sorry.
I
can' t.
.
.
.
.
. .uh.
.
.
.
.
#31:
Okay.
I have
it all down here.
So we... ha,
ha,
ha,
I
smoked up my
pen.
#07:
I was rather pissed off at #66 there
for driving me to this
'cause he's wasting time on
a mock-up.
Ha,
ha.
#31:
Okay.
Well you did have that feeling of
a mock-up right
at
the beginning,
but,
what
I would like to do is get
a
good cross section
don't worry about drawing tank and
vehicle and putting it all
together. .. ..let's just go with
two,
two lines as though you were looking at it sideways.
#07:
I'll
just cross section
#31:
Just
a cross section
of what you ran through
as
it came
...as you went through
it.
Now,
I'll start you off......
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#07:
Wasn't there
a,
a plate an inch or
so thick
or something.
#31:
Okay,
okay.
I'll start you off,
like
I
said.
It must
be
a mock-up because it's got 3/4 inch thick material.
Thought it was metal.
#07:
How thick was
the next layer?
#31:
Well,
you didn't give me
a depth on the next one,
but you
had some kind of backing.
Like an aluminum honeycomb.
Do you have
a feel now recalling what the
#07:
I remember.... I... at North American Aviation once,
I
X was
in
the factory when they were building the
something,
I
think... SST
or
something,
and
I
saw
aluminum honeycomb that reminded me of
this.
Tha
s
what
I'm trying
to draw now.
I
can see striation along
the cutawayy
edge,
and little.
. .like those little holes
where
these" little squares are formed here.
I
don't know.
But,
that was honeycomb?
#31:
Yeah.
That was your word.
Yeah.
Like an aluminum,
like
aluminum honeycomb.
Okay?
#07:
Honeycomb ... 3/4 inch.
#31:
You had thick material.
. .thought it was metal on that
first layer.
Okay?
#07:
Ummmm ....
#31:
Okay.
And,
the next
thing.
Then you had
a feeling of
a thin,
l/8th to 1/4 inch
layer,
not further described.
#07:
How thick?
#31:
l/8th
to 1/4 inch.
#07:
Material,
huh.
#31:
Yeah.
Oust. ...
#07:
I didn't
say.
#31:
At
this
time,
though,
if you do have any recollections
about it
I need you
to add any extra words
#07:
I
not so lost going through that one piece at
a time,
I
thought,
gee,
I don't want to go through that again.
See
if
I
can remember
it,
'cause
I
knew you were going
to ask
me some
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#31:
Okay.
Then after that thin layer you had,
then another
substance,
almost irregular.
#07:
Oh!
Yeah.
That was..uh...
#31:
Three to four inches
thick,
but very hard in granular.
#07:
How thick?
#31:
Three
to four inches
thick.
#07:
I
don't know what the hell that
is.
Was there anything
else?
#31:
Okay.
Then,
another layer inside that doesn't seem
thick either.
#07:
Hmm.
That sure
is detailed,
isn't it.
Especially following
three
to four inches,
that don't
oh,
I
guess that was
#66 's second layer,
huh.
Uh...is that all the description
of that?
#31:
Yes.
Doesn't seem thick either.
#07;
Was there anything
That's
it,
huh?
#31:
No.
Then inside looks like kind of
a styrofoam.
#07:
Oh,
shit!
This has got to be hallucination.
Okay.
How thick?
#31:
You didn't say.
I was going to ask you now if you had
any recollection
of
the
#07:
I
felt it was bulky, but
I
don't
I'd forgotten these
last two layers.
Are you sure you want
to pursue this?
#31:
Yes.
Positive.
#07:
You know,
this is ridiculous.
#31:
And then you had... inside that... that would be.... do you
have
a feel
for the thickness of that thing at all?
#07 :
What?
This?
#31:
Yeah.
That last layer
there.
#07:
I don't
know.
I
thought
the whole thing came out close
to
9 inches.
So,
I don't
know.
Might be the
same.
#31:
All right.
And,
then metalized cloth liner...
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#07:
Four or five inches.
I
don't know.
#31:
Okay.
Then you had
a metalized cloth liner snapped
on
the inside.
#07:
Two
Ts in metal?
#31:
No.
One
T.
One
T,
two LLs.
M-e-t-a-l-l-i-z-e-d.
#07:
Jesus!
One,
two,
three,
four,
five,
six.
#31:
Okay.
#07:
No!
Seven.
One,
two,
three,
four
if anybody is
interested in counting them
#31:
That's all right.
Before we're. ..hold on
to that
for
a minute
while you've got it there,
refresh your memory.
I want to
ask you
a couple of questions about
it.
Okay.
The overall
thickness,
you asked about how thick it was,
and you said
about
9 inches.
Okay.
You first thought about
9 inches.
All right.
And,
throughout this you had
a flavor of
a mock-
up type of scenario,
and you were asked why you had that
flavor.
You said,
because
it makes no sense and because
the
thickness seems relatively light.
Okay.
#07:
The thickness seemed light?
#31:
Because
it makes no sense and it seems relatively light.
#07:
I
think the material seemed
light,
actually.
#31:
Okay.
What
I want you to
do..
#07:
Thickness seemed light.
I don't know.
#31:
What
I want you to do now,
is
I want you
to go back
through your entry imagery
as you started to peel away
those parts of the hull so that you could look at that,
and
I want you to just go through
it,
and revalidate to
yourself that you were
...where you were positioned,
and
tell me where,
where you were positioned relative
to the
tank... the vehicle.
. .the tank at the time that this began.
#07:
When
I was looking at the
Cutaway?
#31:
Yes.
As you began to build that imagery you developed
a
cutaway
view.
#07:
Oh!
Okay.
1 got it.
I had
a cutaway,
you know,
right
straight through the midships.
. .straight back,
and
I was
standing just about the position of
the.
. .forward,
first
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forward big wheel
on the port side,
you
know.
It wasn’t
there,
but
I
was standing.
. .what.
. .3,
4 feet away from
the
crosS’ section
of
the plate.
I was up forward standing
where the wheel would
be,
just about.
#31:
Okay.
And,
where was your view relative
to where that
wheel was?
Like were you down at ground level or were
you up above
that.
About how high off .... .where on this
plank of the vehicle were you accessing it?
#07:
God!
I
don’t know.
#31:
How high?
What height?
#07:
Were you talking about how high above my head was my
viewpoint?
#31:
Yeah.
I’m trying to get some feeling for the exact
place on the vehicle body that you were concentrating on
at this
time.
#07:
Oh!
I know where
I was looking.
I
was looking at that
front sloped plate on
the
top.
#31:
Okay.
#07:
And,
I was looking at about the vicinity
of that place
where it had the break that
I was concerned about.
That
clean
line.
Yeah.
That’s where
I was,
I
just have
a
feeling of awareness.
I don’t know whether
I was standing
or lying horizontally,
or what.
#31:
Okay.
That’s fine.
Let me give you sketch
I think
it’s
3.
No.
Sketch
2.
I'm sorry.
There,
yeah,
4,
I'm sorry.
Would you put an
X on that as to your
#07 :
An X?
#31:
Yeah.
As to where you think you were
#07:
Looking.
#31:
Looking.
Yes.
#07:
Yeah.
I
figure,
gee,
it was
in the vicinity of this
horizontal line that
I was concerned about,
and just below
it,
so
I'd say
I was looking at the cross-section
uh
#31:
Somewhere
in
the lettering there.
#07:
Yes.
Below the
L
in clean.
Down through there.
In
that section
there,
and
I remember looking
a little
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above that line,
and
I glanced
to my left to see if
the bottom plate was the same way,
and something happened#
I didn't pursue
it.
I
didn't see
the bottom plate as
a
cutaway.
So
I don't know.
#31;
Okay.
Fine.
#07:
I'm going to put a
how's that?
#31:
Okay.
That's fine.
That large arrow going down was point
of view.
#07:
Uh.
. .what do we want...uh
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
We want
to correlate sketch
to sketch 4 there.
Ummm...
What was your feeling regarding the imagery that you got
when you were directed to...uh...do the cutaway portion
on the tank or... related to your feeling of mock-up,
and
such?
I was
a little confused
at first.
I didn't see what
I thought
I would
see.
Uh...I
saw these different
materials,
and
I
found myself looking at a cutaway,
and
the only way
I
could get comfortable with what
I was seeing
was.
. .uh.
. .in my mind
and realize
it was
a mock-up.
In
which case the materials might not be what
I
expect,
anyway.
It could be materials used to make forms for castings,
or whatever.
At
this point,
I became comfortable wi
i
,
and
I could look at
it,
and describe
it.
Most. . .before
that
I
was trying
to,
you
know,
fight with the
imagery,
and make
it logical to somethinn
that
I
could agree with
logically.
I had seen a
lot; of cutaways
,0 f weapons 'years
before
in
the
Navy,
and
I
thought,
well,
gee,
this looks
like things
I'd seen before,
and everything was okay,
then.
Okay.
One last thing on sketch
5.
The outside front,
your words here,
the outside front looks like
a funny
white metal.
At first like some kind of alloys
of
_
aluminum,
and then you said they're probably going to paint
it.
Do you have any
Yeah.
That was that top slope plate forward.
And it was
a whitish metal.
Like some alloys of aluminum you see very
whitish. .. .that silver mirror-like
color.
This caused me
some problems.
Metal is..... steel is a darker,
non-
descript color bare metal.
And it didn't look like that.
It disturbed me,
and
I
threw it away.
I didn't feel
it was
important
Okay.
Ummmm
okay.
Now,
we're moved to the rear deck
area or
the rear of the vehicle rear deck.
Yeah.
You wanted
to say something?
Yeah.
Okay.
Before we
go
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m
ifi
B
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#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
on,
let me,
let's work some more
on this
sketch
5...
umm.
. .the.
. .specifically interested
in anymore words or
information you may be able
to provide us regarding the.
3 to 4 inch thick granular layer.
Do you have any feeling
for its composition?
It's density,
granual
sizes.
. .and that
type
of thing.
I felt particular matter was individually were very,
very
hard.
I thought this stuff was very dense,
but being
granular
it was somewhat lighter than
a solid piece would be.
I thought
it was brittle,
but extremely,
extremely hard,
and
I... I have
a small shop at home and
I
play with different
metals.
I'm no expert on
it,
but this was not like anything
I'd ever seen.
I didn't even know
it was
a metal.
But,
I
thought it was very hard.
It was like big grains that were
stuck together having some porosity with the individual
grains
I
thought were extremely hard,
and
I
don'.t know
how they were stuck together,
but
I
felt this stuff
is.
brittle,
and
I was toying with
it,
you
know.
Why?
This
makes no sense,
yet it's extremely brittle,
and
I was torn
between this mock-up thing or
if
this stuff is real or
why would they put something like this on
a. mock-up.
I
felt very comfortable when we got away from it because
I was
trying to figure what
it was.
Hard,
brittle,
porose.
Okay.
One last note for sketch
5.
There's one thing
I
forgot.
It's more administrative.
Would you put on the
top like exterior side and interior side,
you know,
on the
respective ends there,
so we know which.
. .analyst will know
which way we
go.
Are you sure of that?
Hmm.
. .Oh!
Exterior.
Ha,
ha.
No.
That's exterior.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
There we
go.
Now,
the cloth was inside.
You
guys forget.
I
see things
backward,
okay.
All right.
Now,
and the next thing,
and about the
last,
I
think,
moving to the rear end
of the vehicle.
. .ummmmm
when you were asked to return to your original point,
then you moved over the port side. ... .midship about
feet
away,
and you
#66 asked you to look at the rear deck.
You saw here you perceived in
the first imagery was maybe
an exhaust port.
Rectangular,
tubular port.
Let's put
this thing together
in
a composite
if we can.
I'll go
on through
it.
. .uh.
. .points aft on the port.
. .points aft
on the port
side.*
At this time you were looking at
from about
8 feet above.
You were about
feet up.
You
were asked to describe the rear deck and you had heavy
grill work on the
left.
. .doesn' t look symetrical
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...grill was kind of different. . .forward near the turret
it seems
a little higher than
on each side
something
new here
it appears to be some kind of box like shape
near the back.
Okay.
Do you think it can be opened up?
Some kind of box that's made of molded fiberglass or big
casting was because of built-in structural stiffening
ribs.
. .hinged on the aft and opens up towards the front
okay.
That was the series
on the back.
#07:
Why
in the hell did
I say
it was new?
#31:
I
don't know.
It was something that you
said.
There's
something new here.
Okay.
#07:
I
guess it was just
a feeling.
#31:
Deleting the expletive.
Ha, ha.
Why?
What did
I
say?
#07:
Never mind.
If you are deleting them,
let's not put them
in again.
#31:
Okay.
So,
if we could do
a composite there
#07:
You
know,
you've got me worried.
I don't normally use
bad language.
In this vicinity here,
I remember some kind
of
This shape is not exact.
I
These bars...I'm not going to try and draw them all,
but
these appeared about
1 inch wide.
I don't know... I don't
know what the hell
this
is,
but
I
see
it.
I think these,,
you
know, are heavy bars.
I
don't think it's important
to put all
that detail in there.
But,
this is
a very
heavy grill work.
It must be an inch.
These bars must be
an inch
in all directions,
I
guess.
The
left rear fender
I
just... I
can't.
. .right now
I
can't remember what
it looked
like,
but somewhere,
'either slightly above this grill or
slightly below there was
a rectangular opening.
I
don't
know what the heck
it was.
This is about midships here.
I
thought
it was higher forward here for some reason,
and
there was something different about... in
the center here.
I,
I
tried to play with
it and figure it out,
but back
to
about this position here was
a.
. .
. .
. .big box like shape.
I can't remember
if
it had some detail
on
it, but
I remember
it had,
I could see indentations on
it like
it was either
cast
or built in
a mold
or something rather than an extruded
or welded box which the dye has to pull out.
The right side
I
couldn't make it out.
I felt it was... well,
I'll be
darned.
Isn't that amazing!
I've got a curve
in the grill
work here that curves around this box.
I don't know how
that happened.
But this grill work did have... was narrower
back aft than it was forward...
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#07:
I
can't
get the detail on the right.
Sorry.
I was
aware the turret starting with this position here,
somehow,
and
I didn't get
to
It was rather
smooth.
But,
I didn't get to work the details out.
There was some kind of box,
or something,
up,
I
think,
around this position here.
Some kind of detail that
I never got back
to.
All
I
can be sure
of is that the
right side
is not like the left side.
And,
I'm not even
going
to attempt to put the detail
in.
But,
I thought
the detail was somewhat smaller than
the grill work
on
the left side.
I
was aware of some kind of round,
or some
kind of detail back here aft,
and
I thought there was some
kind of grill work
or something somewhere on here,
and
I
couldn't... I don't know where it was... down
on the end...
This
thing here may be exhaust.
. .this rectangular.
. .1 don't
know what
the heck
it
is.
It might be
an intake.
I
don't
know.
But,
I was thinking that's
a strange looking exhaust;
I would expect them to be round.
#31:
Okay.
Why don't you
label that then.
Is there anything more
now to this section?
This sketch here.
#07:
Oh.
But logically
it makes no sense,
you know,
that you have
a big port opening like that... you
take
a round in there,
and tear hell out of
the things,
unless you had some kind of
baffle
or something.
I don't know.
With top
deck,
rear
deck
#31:
In that center box there,
now those indentations,
you had
the. ....am
I
right when
I say that your feeling was that
they were indentations but there was
a solid box.
Were
the indentations just where you would
#07:
Oh,
it was just indentations for rigidity.
I
thought there
was
a diagonal bar in there somewhere,
but
I can't get the
feel for it now.
But,
this is just to show that it had
impressions that
I felt were for rigidity.
I
felt it was
either molded or cast.
Not an extrusion.
I
felt very
strong about the thing opening in the forward direction.
#31:
Would you say that again?
#07:
I felt very strongly about the fact that
I felt the thing
the hinges were aft,
and the thing opened in
a forward
direction.
Like the opening. ... .the lid was facing forward
when it's open.
I don't know.
I
don't know what
it was.
But,
I
thought
it was smoother rather than having nice square
sharp angles.
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#31:
The way your text goes here is you said there was something
new here,
just before you started to describe the box like
thing
on the back that you just talked about.
#07:
The box,
I
thought,
was the new thing,
but
and
I don't
know why
I'd say
it was new.
I
mean.
I
don't know what
was old.
#31:
Okay.
The other
#07:
But,
I
felt very excited about, I
felt very excited about
the box.
This was the second time
I
got the rush.
#31:
Okay.
One other question
I
have,
or one other comment
I
want to get down... drop that down so
I
could show you....
right
in under where you have rear
deck
written there,
you talked about
a bump
or that
it was higher.
#07:
You can see it right here.
#31:
Okay.
Does that bump protrude all the way or did you
lose
it behind the
#07:
No.
It seemed the kind of
I
don't remember tracing
it aft so it must have disappeared.
It wasn't a central
spine,
dorsal thing.
#31:
And you say
the right side grill
is different from the
left side grill.
#07:
Yes.
But,
I
don't know how.
#31:
I
think we have one more area here.
#07:
This detail was,
you know,
like looking at one of those
highly complicated space ships you see in Star Wars,
or
something.
It
just,
you know,
how do you remember all
that detail.
It's exciting,
but that's
the way
I
felt
when
I was playing around with
this.
#31:
Uh .
.
. the last area now is... #66 had you
do one more thing
similar to what you'd done before,
and that was to dissolve
all that concealed the power plant,
okay.
So let's move
to
another sketch,
unless you want to use that now.
He had
you dissolve all that concealed the power plant.
What
I
want to make sure we are here is that you are,
you
know,
that you' re... did your view
or your perspective change
at any time during this part of the session
or did you
stay relatively fixed in
the view of sketch
6.
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#07:
Oh,
I was a few feet aft and slightly
to
the right,
but when it all peeled back
I
got
a real quick glance
at what
I
thought was a giant B12 engine with
the
heads off,
and
I was seeing cylinder board.
That just
kind of faded off and disappeared on me,
and
I saw
something instead that was stronger,
and
I
thought,
well,
gee,
I must have expected
to see
a big engine,
diesel
or something,
and so
I
saw this.
It disappeared,
and
I
saw something about
I
get roughly
the size of
a
POL barrel.
I
thought,
well,
gee,
the goddam thing
is
electric motor,
and or generator and these two words
started hitting me.
I am aware that that
is absolutely
illogical,
but that's what
I
saw.
A big round thing with
a
At first
I
thought perhaps these linear round
things were wire,
heavy wire,
or something,
and
I backed
off and tried to get away
from because
it was causing me
discomfort and
I was trying not to figure out what it was,
and
I
tried to look somewhere else,
and when
I
did
I was
aware
of
a thing that looked like a... what did
I
call
it...
uh. ... .injector pump... like
a big diesel injector pump.
That would be on the right side.
If were aft facing forward
it would be
on
the right side.
And,
it had
r,.a lot _of
metallic lines coming from
it.
I don't know if
I've ever
seen a big diesel injector pump.
I have seen them on
automobiles,
but this thing seemed much larger.
#31:
So,
why don't you draw me
a sketch of
#07 :
.... of the pump
#31:
No.
Of the entire drum shape and the pump associated with
it.
#07:
I was of
I didn't count these damn things,
but there
were a
Lot of tubes,
and they'd
go and they... when they'd
made
a bend they'd all bend together.
Like
a.
. .looked a lot
like
a wiring diagram.
. .the way the lines were parallel and
make
a right angle turn. . .uh.
. .1 don't know where they went.
There was... cable like things,
you know,
crawling all over
this tube like things.
I
can't remember where they were.
It was
just
too,
too blamed complicated.
I tried to see
the front end of
it.
I
did not see this injector pump
like thing hooked to
it.
I saw
it sitting beside it,
and
oh',
that's part of that.
It was very complicated,
and
I
can't remember details.
I supposed if
I worked just on
that
I might be able to find some details.
#31:
That's fine.
#07:
Oh!
Yeah.
There was another thing.
Darn
thing.
Yeah.
Now it makes more sense to
me,
but at the time
it made no
sense
at all.
I
felt there was
a
metalized blanket like
insulation around
a dot of this
thing.
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#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
Of what kind of
a thickness?
Well,
it must have been 4 or
5 inches thick.
Some kind
of insulation blanket.
I
don't know if
it was to hold
the heat
in
or hold
the heat out.
I
don't know which.
Was
it
wrapped ftight^y
arouhd'L'it .or' wasf it imore-.-*-*
I think it was kind of
loose,
and wrinkley .
Like the
outer protective covering was
a metalized strong something.
I don't know.
I
don't know whether it could have been
mylar.
It could have been metalized fabric
or something,
but
it was wrinkley.
And,
there was holes where electric
wires
or tubes went through.
Geeze.
.
.
. .not on
a tank,
but that's what
I
saw.
Right now,
I
just can't cover all
the detail.
Okay.
Well.
.
. .ummm
I
felt there was enough
room.
On one
side,
I
could almost
get down in beside the thing.
Okay.
Do you have
a feeling for what side that was?
I
think
it was the right side.
It could be
the same
on
both sides.
I just didn't look,
but
I
felt,
gee,
I could
get down
in there and crawl
you know,
look around
this
thing.
I
don't
know.
I
could have been very confused
in this area because this doesn't look like anything.
Okay.
Well,
I'll
tell you what.
Let's start and let's
go through and label the thing on the right side of the
sketch there.
In jector.
.
. .uh
I
Yeah.
Injector pump type
thing.
Now,
am
I right when
I
assume that there's only one of them associated with
this
equipment?
That's all
I
saw.
That's all
I
saw.
I was very uncomfortable
with big electric motor generator thing.
I was really
trying to
get away from it because
I was afraid
I would
try and analyze.
How do you spell aluminum.?
A-l-lu-m-i-n-u-m.
Okay.
Why don't we label that engine area,
engine,
engine area on
the
top of that power plant,
whatever?
I
don't even know
if that
is
a power plant.
But,
it
was
in that area
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#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31:
#07:
#31
#07
#31
#07
#31:
All right.
Anything more you can add to that?
No.
It would be too difficult,
and inaccurate,
I
think.
Okay.
Fine.
You know,
there was detail of some kind
in this vicinity
over here,
but
I don't know what they were.
Okay.
I
don't think we have anymore sketching.
#66 was
getting ready
to bring you out of the session... he asked
you if you had anything else
to add.
. .uh.
. .appears to have
alot
of electrohydrolic gear
in
it
pretty heavy electric
cables inside.
. .some pretty heavy motors. .. .feeling more
electric than usual. .. .don' t ever remember seeing this
critter before.
I've seen alot of pictures but doesn't
remember this.
. .uh.. .top seemed rather broad and flat like
a bullfrog.
I
just wondered
if you'd give me some words
on those,
and anything else you may want
to add at this time.
Uh...yeah...
I
think probably what I'm going to tell you....
the feeling of the whole thing seemed broad and squat.
I
guess that's why
I
came up with the bullfrog thing,
as
opposed to call it massive.
Yet,
I think it was very
tall.
I think the feeling of looking at
it was broad and squat.
And,
I'm going right now to
go out and see
if wheels
on
a
tank are 4 foot high anywhere.
I have no feel for
that.
Okay.
Have anything more
to add?
That
is about
it.
It was
a fun
Fun session
It was
a fun session.
I
am normally quite bored and would
like
to shut down as quickly as possible,
but this one,
I
felt badly when we had to shut down.
Well,
I don't have anything else.
Thank you.
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