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#66 :
Only thing
I
can compare
it
to is..uh. .mo-,
mo-, mo
model
of molecules.
Like
very geometric. .uh.
.
spheres and
Innn
linear connectors between. .ummmm.
. .spheres.
Ask yourself,
ask
of yourself,
what
don:
see have
to do with the target.
Ask
of
picture
see have to do with this
tax g<
answer
to me.
; this picture
I
yourself what does
't.,
and report
the
this
#07 :
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# 66 :
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#66 :
PAUSE
Uhhh. .ummm great quantities
of paper
pi
data,
data,
a lot
of data.
. .tests,
some
of some kind.
Data collection
on some
int outs
kind
of
kind
of
tests
test
.
tests
Ask yourself to disc-,
ask yourself what
Ask
of yourself what kind of test is thi
kind
of test is this,
s,
and report
the
answer to
me.
PAUSE
Ummm... I don't
know... looks
like,
two,
linear,
tubular
thing.
Looks
like
a damn,
two hot dogs and a very it
b
that putting out
a hell
of
a
lot
of heat.
It
• f you
cut
the
top with these two things inside.
y
t
across
the bun with two hot dogs inside
of
it,
you
,ee the
!“a rounded dome on
it
just.
. .doming up with tremendous heat.
PAUSE
Focusing now on this imagery,
describe
the
location
of
this that you see.
Uh...I don't know where this
is.
Ask yourself,
where is this that
I
see.
Sing\ Portion of a late with the
land on the
left.
It appears like a peninsula.
Move even closer and describe the immediate surroundings.
PAUSE
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#07:
I
lost
it.
. .Somehow.
. .ended up
on the (pound here.
#66 :
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#66 :
Describe it to me.
Oh!
It's nothinq.
I
just,
I was trying to move in on
this,
and
the whole thing went blank.
Started looking
around
it,
looked like
I
was... on the
ground
of
a cave
or
a tunnel
or something.
Just overshot..
Ihc walls
are raw.
They haven't....
Don't appear to be much
showina.
I
came back up.
Before,
you spoken
of data being produced.
Data being
produced reference
a test.
Yeah.
I
just think there' s.
. .asking myself some
question
I've since forgotten.
Ask yourself now, what is the nature
oi
this data.
Ask
yourself what is
the nature
of this
dal a.
PAUSE
I
had
a strong,
a strong sense
of feeling.....
If the
hot dog had anything to do with
it
must be a release
of energy.
Tell me what
is
it that makes you
say
that.
Report your
raw data.
The.. whether the hot dogs... left overJy heated and hot
doqs in the buns were about
to
pop.
didn
t want
to dump
that.
I wanted
to wait until
I
got better information.
But,
all the data coming around
the big computer print out
sheets indicated some kind
of data crunching.
I
asked
myself about the significance;
I
immediately felt some kind
of testing.
It wasn't raw imagery.
It was just strong
feeling
of information gathering,
testing
Of what material
is the hot dog imagery?
#07:
#66 :
#07:
#66 :
#07:
I didn't hear you.
Of what material
is the hot dog imagery?
Of what
the hot dog's made out of.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I never thought about.
See
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66 :
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#07
:
Describe their composition to me.
Appears to be.... a reddish,
doughey,
dough like,
thick,
like
the
latest playdo.
It's got
a very
It's plastic
but pliable
consistency.
That seems
to
be contained
in this hot dog shape.
Hell,
it looks exactly
like
a
hot dog to me,
but the bun,
bun portion seemed
to be
vibrating,
pushing outward ... .great pressure.
I
just
caught
it.
It might went in time.
I
don't know what
happened to
it.
It's... it's not much.
All riqht.
Let's try
to recapture
that
moment,
but,
this
time ask yourself for
a picture of the
test,
a picture
o
the test.
Ask yourself for
a picture
of the test and describe
this picture
to me.
PAUSE
I
must be too close.
I've got
to try again.
I
kept
getting imagery
I
can't describe.
Fell
like
I... close
as
I could describe
it... I
...it was
like about one inch
away from the candle flame
looking at
it with great detail
with one eye
I
could see a very hot inner proportion with
a wick and bands
of color
going
out from there.
Out to.,
different colors on the way
out and
it
was vibrating a
it looked kind of shaped pointed
top
like,
like candle
flame
and
the sides were curved like
a flame and moving
outwards.
I kept seeing all kind
of crazy colors.
Its
don't mean anything to
me.
I'm going
to back
oft
All right.
As you back off away from
it,
simply put
a
filter up
in front so
as to block these distracting images
so that you
can
see very clearly.
Simply put
a filter
up
in front
of you
so that you'll block these distracting
things
and you
can
see very
clearly.
Hrrtmm.
. .It
looks, .uh. .it
looks like
a pear
(phonetic)
shaped thing.
Just blew
it
all to hell!
I
m
getting
mixed up with overlay.
It's something
I experienced
QPi/pr n 1
months back.
#66 :
#07 :
Report
[t feels
like
I
feels
like a smart bomb hit a cement
lunker,
cement hangerette type enclosure,
and just
as
it
was just going all to pieces
I
saw red streaks impinging
(phonetic)
on
it from another,
another angle
I
don
t
know what
to make
of that.
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All right.
But,
I,
I was comfortable with the torps (phonetic)
pear
shape disintegrating,
and then
I was overwhelmed with
the
smart bomb idea.
I
don't know
II
just
How did the bomb come to disintegrate?
How did
it come
to this condition?
I
don't know.
It was... at about
a 43 degree angle
to the
earth's surface.
Appeared
to have penetrated.
It was
either stored
or penetrated.
I
just caught
it
in positio
disintegrating.
Then,
I suddenly
got
a memory trace
of
some other,
some other stuff
I'd worked
on
Okay.
somewhere
else.
I,
I
think the smart bomb bunker
must be overlay.
It's
so close to soma work that
di
with the camouflaged people.
PAUSE
All
right.
Let's focus solely
on
the
imagery
from this
session then.
Wipe out the overlay .. .solely on the
imagery from this session.
Describe how this torpedo
like
object
is sitting right now.
Uh.
. .hell,
it
isn't.
It's... I caught
L t
kind
of
disintegrating.
Let me back
up.
Back up
in time and describe how
it's sitting.
ADDears
to
be pointing down
a little hit,
but
Oh?
Hell.
I
can't handle this
when you said
.
.
.pspp(phonetic)
pspsps
(phonetic)
skylights sitting
I
saw a cradle rack.
I didn't see that before,
so
I
think
I
just
Did
I understand you
to say something about cement,
cement block
of some kind?
I said cement... bunker like thing.
I
<ke
a cement hangerette.
And,
then you
said,
That... what is
i!
that is
in thi^
bunker?
see
an aircraft that
1 think is in
There,
but,
this
torpedo thing seems
to definitely
be
in there*
Hove forward in time now and watch for
this disintegration
that you detected.
Describe what happens as you move
forward
in time.
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#07:
# 66 :
#07:
# 66 :
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#07:
#66 :
see
an aircraft or
a model
of
an aircraft inside
of
something.
Brightly
lit from below.
I ike an
^ explosion
or
a flash or something underneath
it.
I
can't
•••••
hummmmm...
I
see wires going all over patte (phonetic)
pattern
of
I
don't know.
I
' ve.
. .f reling they're
some kind
of
sensors.
Something to
do with the wires.
Now,
I've
lost
the torpedo,
it's...
Has is too slow.
I
can't handle
it.
Too slow.
. .white blue
light.
Dirt.
There's an explosion.
That's about
ii
All right.
Now,
you've watched through time
the torpedo
object,
and you've watched several events happen through
time.
I'm interested
to know how that
time of that
relates
to present time,
right now.
Are we looking at the
future;
are we
looking at the past;
are we looking at
the present?
Gosh
I
don't know.
I didn't know there was
time.
I
was just
I was just
I was
just
sitting here
looking
I
have to work
on
that.
All right.
Watch
the sequence
Hold
it!
God damn!
I
don't know.
1 here's some stray
input there
a big
...metal sphere with.
. ..some kind
of
precision tubes sizely positioned,
kind 'a into
it.
just hit
me.
I
don' t know what
it is.
I'm going
on time
now.
It
to work
Okay.
As
a suggestion
to work
on
the
time situation,
follow the sequence through one more
lime,
and when you
get to the flash point then
look at your calendar and tel
me what day it
is.
PAUSE
I don't know.
I
keep... I
keep seeing
the seven mixed
with something
(Mumbling)
I'm sorry.
The flash
keeps getting
in the way.
Let the flash ask,
let the flash act
to illuminate
the
date so you might see
it better .
Let
the flash ac
o
illuminate
the date
so you may see
if
better.
I've got
a
kind
of
God damn.
Okay.
Relax and
look at it for a moment;
just relax and
look at
it
for
a moment while
I
turn over
the tape.
#66:
Okay.
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#07:
#66 :
#07:
I
can't handle
it.
I
gotta,
I
gotta seven
'an
a
nine,
it's
jus'
can't choose between them.
I understand you're having difficulty
Incusing on some
sort
of time matrix with the events you’ve seen.
That's fuzzy,
you
know,
the way
it curves
to
the
left at
the
top.
It could be
a seven
or
a nine.
It's near
the
top
of
the calender
.
•
*
*
*
Okay
.
in second
row.
Okay.
Let's examine your imagery once again,
and for
this we're going
to need
a flash filter as we watch
once again
the events,
the torpedo object,
we need
a flash
filter so that you won't be blinded
by
the
flash,
and
that you'll
be able
to
see clearly the altitude of
the
explosion.
Follow the events through
lime once again,
and describe
the altitude
of
the explosion.
Uh.
.
. it looked to me
like
it was
it was under an
aircraft.
I
thought the aircraft was
mside something.
An.... I understand
that you feel
that
the aircraft
is
not airborne when
the explosion happens?
I didn't think
it was.
I
saw... it could be... noise
of
the bunker hangerette thing.
But,
I kept seeing the
bunker hangerette thing.
I
was looking out
to try and
see what was
in there
and
I
saw
I his aircra
‘
w ^
a flash
lit
it up from underneath.
looked around
for the
....to see if
the walls
of
the hangerette was
gone,
and
I couldn't see
it anymore.
I
just saw black and everything
was gone.
I
lost
it.
From that,
I
just assumed
I was
somewhere close to ground
level.
The
torpedo like thing
when
it went was about 45 degree angle nose down
(mumbling)
got
a flash
of some kind
of
racks about that
time
uh
the nose
of
this thing
kind
of funny.
Describe
the magnitude
of the explosion.
I
don't
knouf how
to
do
that*
Would you call the explosion small,
medium
or large?
I can’t deal
in relativity.
I
say
tins thing
ought' a.
raise hell with four feet of.... one
is
a hydrogen bom
;
it's small.
Other's
...is...uh
’ hundred pounder.....
it's pretty good size.
Something electronic seems
important.
That could be recording.
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#66:
All right.
We've been at this for quite
a while now.
I
have no other specific questions about this target,
hut,
I would
like for you now
to comment
an you see
tit
on
the
imagery
that you have seen.
#07:
What
I
saw... it seemed conflicting because
suspect
overlay.
Testing was feeling was strong. .. .explosion
and disintegration seems strong;
information and data
collection seemed fairly strong*
#66
:
And,
what
is the nature again
of this
information
that's to be collected.
#07:
I
don't know.
I
just observed.
I... never asked myself
that.
I assumed
it was gather data
on.
I
don
t know
destructive force,
I
guess.
#66:
All
ritfit.
Anything else you would
like
to add before
you draw those perceptions that you have had?
#07:
No.
Except that
one point then- trying to slow
down disintegration
my pulse
got awfully heavy
eratic.
Almost felt
like
cancelling
out.
I don
t
know what caused
it.
That's about
all
I have
o a
#66:
Okav.
Fine.
Let's draw the perceptions that you've had.
We would like
to have some pictures here. .uh. .number
one
of the torpedo
like object that you have perceived,
bo,
it's good to
do that
one.
#07:
Excuse
mo.
My mike cord's caught
on something.
#66:
It was
just me.
I was standing
on
it.
#07:
You were standing
on
my cord!
Okay.
Now,
I saw the
thing as though
it were pointed downwards
to my
left.
#66:
Redo it again,
then.
#07:
Yeah.
I
just want
to see if
I
can gd
the feel
of
iL
u/ith black pencil,
and
I
11** ••••••
#66:
Okay
.
#07:
I couldn't... back along this point,
get the shape
too well past this point,
but
I
fell
back a few feet
past that there was some kind of ..... -must have
or something
I couldn’t get
it exactly straight,
but rather than
it being
long with
the sides parallel,
it seemed to have
a nice curve
to it...Uh...at one pom
sometime very
late,
I
saw
a thing that was shape
....
on the end
I
saw something very weird l^e that.
ve
never seen anything like
it,
and
it could have been
just
overlay
of some type,
but
I
did see
just about thm
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#66:
Okay.
Why don't we make those. .. .uh.
.
~
. .an
A and
a
B.
#07:
An
A and
a B?
#66:
A,
being the torpedo like object,
and B being
a shape that
you perceived
later as being.
. .uh.
. .the front maybe
of the
torpedo object
or what did you perceive.....
#07:
I
don't know.
It was the same blamed angle
that
I
saw
the
other.
I'd been trying
to look at
this thing,
and
trying
to figure out if the
thing was
a torpedo
or
if
it
was a bomb,
if
it was
a rocket..... I couldn't identify
it,
and while
I was doing
it,
this thing
(lashed in real strong.
#66:
You mean
B.
#07:
B flashed
in real strong and disappeared
on me.
Uh
you want those
in
ink,
right.
I
just couldn't get the attachemnt
of
the tails to the
frame,
but
I
felt there were some
kind
of fins
there.
#66:
Okay.
Now
on page
if you could draw
a picture
of
the
airplane that you've perceived.
You seemed
to see it
several times,
and did state once
thol
it was rather
large.
#07:
The,
the first aircraft that
I
saw very
early was not
the thing
I
saw with the
light flash under
it.
#66:
Oh.
I
see.
Okay.
Well,
show me the
thing with
the
light flash....
The thing that's connected with
the
torpedo object in someway.
#07:
Hummm.
.
. .1' ve
lost
it.
It's a
I
can't remember
the
nose too well there,
but
I
could see
the under portion,
you
know,
really under here,
really
lit up,
very,
very
bright.
Uh...
I
thought
I was very close to it.
I
Felt
that the thing that
lit
it up was over
my right shoulder,
and
I
thought
I was up close to this
thing,
and looking
up
at
it.
#66:
One time you called this an airplane
or
a model
of
an
airplane,
too.
#07:
Yeah.
I
don' t know why
the hell
I said
that.
I don't
have the feel for that now.
I
#66:
And,
as you draw
it,
is
it airborne?
#07:
Well,
it felt like
it was hainging,
you
know.
I was seeing
this hanger,
hangerette like thing,
and this thing seemed
....
I
looked up when
I thought
I was
in this dark
enclosure
looking to see if
there was anything
there.
I
saw the aircraft,
and
I was looking up at
it,
and
I was wondering why it didn't have wheels down.
So,
I don't
know.
I
something happened there.
I
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:
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#07 :
#66 :
don't know what all happened,
but. ....... .1 don't
know.
It didn't have
.....
It must
have been
airborne.
I
saw no wheels down.
Okay.
This aircraft
doesn't look exactly right,
but
Now,
did you....
I'm confused
a little
bit about the
torpedo object.
Is
it attached in someway
to the airplane?
No.
I
could see
that.
. .uh.
. .my thoughts separated
from me.
Because you just
yeah... you
just said that the
explosion was over your shoulder when you saw the flash
in
the airplane.
You
know,
I
don't think the torpedo thing was in that
aircraft.
You don't think
it was ever
in there?
I
don't know whether
it was ever
or not.
I felt that the
aircraft was
lit up
by
it.
Although,
l
didn
t turn
around and
look
to see
if that was
the torpedo thing.
I
was just aware of this bright
(mumbling)
figure
like
I
hadn't seen
or felt before.
. .and.
. .1 didn't expect that.
I
was looking to see
if there was anything
in there,
and
I
saw
the aircraft.
Okay.
And,
I
saw
it.
light up
from underneath.
And,
I
don't
know whether the thing was in
the hanger
or outside.
It was black.
Okay.
Then,
let's move on
to page
3 now and draw this
thing that you call
a hangerette.
Aha.
This
is going
to be awful difficult,
but
I
only
saw portions
of
it,
and
I'm sure
I'll
Till in from
memory,
because
I worked
a problem like this.
. .uh.
. .with
the agency
in,
what was
it,
oh yeah..
You're speaking
of working this from. .uh. .photo graph imagery
or something.
Photograph interpretation,
yeah.
I
see.
I don't know.
(Mumbling)
some kind
of bunker.
Okay.
Let me see if
I
can review this again.
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#07 :
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#07
#66
#07
I'm not seeing that much with all of the imagery that
I
was
was going by
me.
Okay.
You have something
like
a
rnound
of dirt or something
over
the
top
of
the
Big,
cement reinforced concrete
bunker
like thing
shaped like
Okay.
And,
when asked what was in there,
you felt that..
I
felt that the,
and
I may have... saw
the bomb again.....
I
said bomb or torpedo like thing,
rocket,
whatever,
an
when
I
saw that
I
figured. .. .well,
you
know..... I was asked
what's,
you
know, where this
is
or what this is or
something,
and
I
thought well,
it must
be
in there.
I
didn't see them actually together,
but
I
felt that they
were.
It might have been overlay.
I don't know.
Did you
see.. did you feel the aircraft
was inside this
(mumbling)
.
That's what
I
thought!
I
thought
an aircraft was
in
there,
and
I
looked around.
I
saw the flash,
and
I
though
,
well,
gee,
the hanger's going to go too,
and
I
couldn
see
the hanger then.
All
I
could see was the aircraft
(mumbling)
from underneath and blackness
And,
when
you
said,
look and see what's
in the hanger,
I
saw the
aircraft.
I naturally thought
it was
in the hanger
right there.
Okay.
Then,
when we
tried to fix this event in
a time
pattern here,
the beginning
of the session was somewhat
confusing because you started
out having imagery what
looked like
an airfield.
Yeah.
I
saw parallel
lines,
and vanishing
in
the
distance,
you
know,
closing
And,
then some other buildings and you called
it
an
airfield,
at one time.
Yeah.
Warehouses
or hanger
like things,
I
thought.
And,
then you said something about,
it.
That was interpretation,
I
guess.
#66
:
#07
:
Well,
at any
rate
I
thought there was
a
very
large
people outside.
I don't
know.
I
I don't know what happened after
aircraft,
and
a lot
of
gel
a long blank there,
thai
.
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Okay.
Then,
you
said that you had to
report something
that was very vague,
and made no sense,
and
it looked
like molecules connected together with
lubes
or something.
Oh,
yeah,
yeah,
yeah,
it
looked
like,
well,
it looked
like
a model
of,
you know,
you might see effective some
molecule
or DMA or something.
I've seen pictures
ot
Like you see in a school science class
or something.
Yeah,
yeah.
Big marbles with shafts connecting between
them the shafts being
(mumbling)
eight
or
ten times the
diameter
of the
sphere.
I
tried to figure that out.
don't know what happened then.
Okay.
I
asked you what that had to do with this session.
What days this figure that you said had to do with
this
target,
and then you said something about tests and data.
Oh
yeah.
Yeah.
I
saw computers and computer printouts
zapping out,
and
I really felt that this was..uh..
testing or evaluation
of something very
strong.
I
don
t
know
why.
Okay.
I think
at this point we were
a little bit lost m
time,
and we didn't know exactly where we were.
Do
you have anything else
on theguidance
in time?
What arc we
talking about here
as far
as
a time for an occurrance
for
this event?
I thought the,
I
thought
the.. uh.. the paper printout
was after the event,
not before,
and
I
felt that data
crunch was to better understand what had happened.
Therefore,
this implied
to
me that a greater understanding
of what the phenomenal was,
was desired.
They said test
to me... is how
I
arrived
at that.
And,
this test,
in itself,
this whole thing called the
test,
how does that relate
in time
to us right
now
sitting
in this room?
I don't. ..I'm not sure.
I
don't know.
I
didn't play
with
the time thing too
long.
Only
towards the end,
as
I
remember.
Oh,
I,
I
tried to look
al
a calendar and
trying
to see the month.
I
couldn't make that out whether
it was a plain,
square,
white calendar with big block,
black letters,
and
I thought
I was into the second
row.
I
thouqht .
.
- 1
thought seven
or nine berause whatever
was
it seemed
to
be heavier at the top,
and that
interpretation,
you know. ..seven
or
ine... single dige
.
...Now,
I
did see other diget come in faint
in latteri
g
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#07:
tone but
I didn't use
'em in
this.
The heavy black
numbers were what
I
thought what
I
gave you.
Uh..
as
to whether it's future or past relative to now
tho nature of your question somewhere along
the line
would indicate this
is
logic.
Wide awake
logic tells
me that
it was,
I
think you said past
Lwenty-four hours
or something.
#66:
Well,
wc started out trying to work
acl lvities of the
past twenty-four hours,
but
#07:
Logic would tell me it was some. .... .where
in the past
but
I
feel,
I
feel future.
#66:
Okay.
What makes you
say that?
What's the feeling?
#07:
I
don’t know.
Just
a funny feeling
I
felt,
I
felt
very,
very nervous and hyper-and my pulse quickened.
I wanted
to
get away from there,
and
J
kept
feeling
well,
there's still
time.
I
can
get away
from here.
The thing was disintegrating around
it.
I
felt it’s
okay.
I
can
get away from here,
and
f
felt pretty
calm,
and,
just from that feeling
I
have
a kind
of feeling
it
might bo
in
the future.
I
felt
I
had
time,
and
it was
going to cccur .
.
.
.
. .may
be relative to,
ot
other
time.
I
don’t know.
But,
I
didn't play with
the time thing
too much other than some of these
sutl Le feelings
like that.
#66:
Okay.
Is there anything else you would like
to add now?
#07:
No.
Don't ask me to draw those molecule things.
It
was quite comp
I
saw
a lot
of complex shapes.
The heat
expanding outward,
greater
in
the horizontal position
than
the upper position the way
they peaked.
The
very
sharp point above rather
than
a round mushroom thing.
It was like the heat was moving outward rather
than
upward.
But,
that was about it.
#66:
Okay.
Anything else then?
#07:
Can't think
of anything.
#66:
That will be it then.
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: CIA-RDP96-00788R000400760001-5