o r*n ni r
3*"?*
Approved For Release 2000/(^0,WtKfe9^'00788^00200520001 '3
p ^
ft**
INSCOM
GRILL FLAME
PROGRAM
SESSION REPORT
NOT RELEASABLE TO FOREIGN NATIONALS
CLASSIFIED BY:MSG,DAMI-ISH
DATED:
. 051630ZJUL78
REVIEW ON:
96-0078iQJ&n^oFXAME
Approved For Release 200
Approved For Release 20
DP96-00788R000200520001
<
SUMMARY ANALYSIS
REMOTE VIEWING
(RV)
SESSION D-29
1.
(S/NOFORN)
This report documents
a remote viewing session conducted
in
compliance with
a request for information.
2.
(S/NOFORN)
The remote viewer's impressions of the target are provided as
raw intelligence data,
and,
as such,
have not been subjected
to any intermediate
analysis,
evaluation or collation.
Interpretation and use of the information
provided is the responsibility of the requestor.
3.
(S/NOFORN)
The protocol used for this session
is detailed
in the document
Grill Flame Protocol,
AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol
(S),
undated.
4.
(S/NOFORN)
Following
is
a transcript of the viewer's impressions during the
remote viewing session.
At TAB A are drawings made by the remote viewer
reference his impressions of the target site.
At TAB
B
is target cuing
information provided the remote viewer.
At TAB
C
is MFR from the analyst.
5.
(S/NOFORN)
An attempt was made to run this session concurrently with
session D-28.
Session D-28 was cancelled due to noise and interference.
Approved For Releas^^/^XIA-RW
R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000A
88R000200520001 -3
TRANSCRIPT
REMOTE VIEWING
(RV)
SESSION D-29
TIME
+03
+03
+10
#14:
This will
be
a remote viewing session
for
3 September
1980.
On target time is 0830 hours.
PAUSE
#14:
All right #19.5 the time
is now 8:30 hours.
I
have an
envelope here.
Inside the envelope is
a photo of the actual
target object that
I want you to focus on today.
I want
you,
at this time,
to move to the target object.
I want
you to give me a very brief description of the surroundings
of this object.
I want you now to relax,
focus
on the
object
in the envelope.
PAUSE
#19.5
Getting black and white patterns.
Just
a minute. ........
.
There's
a concrete floor.
It's either concrete or asphalt.
Metal walls.
. .uh. .very large,
large building like..uh..
aircraft hanger . ..very plain.
#14:
Okay.
At this time
I want you to focus
on the target
object itself.
I want you
to describe this object in
detail.
PAUSE
#19.5:
It's got
a pointed snout.. like a nose on
it,
smooth,
very
smooth,
comes to a point.
Just
a minute.
Something's
bothering me.
PAUSE
#19.5
See
a row of ovals.
It's
a pair
of ovals.
I don't know.
Running away from me.. right side. .angular curved overhang,
looks like metal... sort of gray color....
It's a......
got
a thick alloy
keep seeing. .uh. .the
V patterns.
Like layers of
Vs
on top of one another.
A sandwich
of
Vs
something to do with the front,
front of the object..
the Vs
do.
#19.5:
Hood. .it.
. .hooded windows.
Some kind of shielded windows.
Very narrow with like blinders over the top made of some
kind of metal.
It's something
to
do with this,
this nose
part
of the thing
PAUSE
Approved For Release 2»flflgi^p^g^g^6-00788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/1
R000200520001 -3
+15
+20
#14:
Okay.
What
is the principle function of this object?
PAUSE
#19.5:
Very powerful... uh.. it's
,,uh..it's got
a
lot of power
that. .uh. .puts some form of power out in a radiating pattern,
very hard,
very strong.
It's.
. I see like. .just a minute.
Drives like a automobile,
only
it' s. .uh. .got no steering
wheel.
Rides rough on the outside.
But,
it's
..uh..
soft,
soft on the inside.
Some kind of vehicle.
#14:
Okay.
Where do the personnel that operate this vehicle
do these functions. .uh. .in other words, where do they
sit.
Where are they located within,
around this vehicle?
PAUSE
#19.5:
See like. .uh. .boxes or compartments.
Uh... there's like
shielded,
shielded compartments,
very thick,
high-back
seats.
It's
a four,
four people for operations.
Pri..
primary operator
is. .uh. .front left. .... .and his,
his
backup is front right.
There's
a different,
different
place for the other two.
I,
I'm having trouble.
I
see
all four people,
but
I
see like plates or boxes
in between.
#14:
Okay.
Focus on these other people and describe what type
of actions they perform in this vehicle.
#19.5:
See one of
'em has got a.. got his hands on levers
or something.
Handles.
Got his hands on two handles.
Three,
uh,
3 handles there.
Got his hands on two of these.
Looking through. .like. .uh. .rubber eye piece.
Like..uh..
some kind of rubber bulb or something like that.
Uh...
Something
very heavy over,
over his right shoulder.
I don't know what
it
is.
It's got like slots down the side.
... .Another. .uh. .another man is with him,
but he's sitting
by this
thing looks like.. uh.. egg carton or something.
It's got bumps like
a egg carton.
Very large.
Sits. .uh..
sideways in the seat.
This seat thing that folds down
.
Just got an impression there's a fifth person,
but he's like
in charge.
Uh..I
don't know where he's at.
He s..uh..
these two are in charge of . .uh. .uh. .some,
some kind of..uh..
some kind of power apparatus or something.
Thing
puts out. .uh.. something.
. .puts out some kind of power.
#14:
Describe this,
this apparatus which assists in doing the
function of this object.
PAUSE
Approved For Release 2000/0
8R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08/1
-UUKB8R000200520001 -3
+25
+30
#19.5:
UH..I keep,
keep trying to see what it
is,
and
I
keep
getting bright blue pulsing
flash.. very incandescent
blue pul- pulsing flash.
PAUSE
Just uh
..like the point of
a shiny pin magnified
very
large and bright blue-white
flash,
pulses on and off...
big,
thick.. uh..
thick. .uh. .drilled hard block steel
thick block.. uh..uh.. block
of something very hard metal
of steel alloy,
grooves,
I
see grooves,
but
I
can't see
if they're inside
or outside.
Something looks like side
mounted tubes,
very
small.
. .like. .uh. .hydraulic shock
absorbers
or something in a car banded together and..uh..
coming out to
the right angle from the side of the block.
Some
block
thing.
Everything looks padded.
Must have
got
a coating of padding on
it or something.
Some soft,
fibrous substance
looks like padding
It's electronics
there too. .uh. .it' s stacked in
a
metal
rack very small
packages. .uh. .4 uh
by
a
inch face,
four elements just
stacked.
See,
two stacks an.. another apparatus to the
side
looks like
a TV screen.
Oscilloscope of some kind
It's. .uh.. some kind of indicator scope.
Very compact.
A lot of solid state. .uh.
. I. C's.
. .very,
very sensitive.
This directs the power,
I think.
Uh..guy with. .uh. .guy
with the levers is... doing something there,
I
think.
He
. ,uhi . manipulates but.
. .buttons, presses buttons.
Also.
, .uh
get
a hot feeling for a minute,
I don't
know.
Don't know if that's associated with this target.
....See many tubes,
like,
not.. large,
tubes like
like copper tubes,
pipes,
something..
That's all
I
get.
#14:
Okay.
I
have no further questions at this time.
Anything
else you'd care
to add?
PAUSE
#19.5:
Uh ,
.
. I keep getting a silhouette outline;
like
a upside
#wn boat with..uh.. upside down boat with an oval pattern.
But no windows.
That's all.
I don't know what it
is.
#14:
Okay.
We'll pause now.
All right Flight Control we're
ready now.
Okay #19.5
I want you
to back and focus on the
operator who was handling the levers and was at the station
with
the oscilloscope.
I want you
to try
to get more detail
on
the functioning and the,
the reason behind the oscilloscope
and the controls at this position.
Approved For Release 2000/j
T0788R000200520001 -3
R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08
+35
#19.5
Uh.
. .picture-this. .uh.. scope like-thing
is
a picture-
and
I
see color,
but
I can't,
I can't find anything.
But,
imposed on the picture
..uh..is
a set of-two sets-
set of like hazy red lines intersecting on top of one
another in
a circle,
and they move-when he-when he pushes
buttons.
I see these switches
on a computer terminal.
It's
a computer keyboard-like
a minnie keyboard.
It's
got
a,
some kind of
a bar-two bars in front of
it,
that
he rests his hands
on
so that his fingers can touch the
keys only when he wants them
to.
It's
a special keyboard.
It's not like
a typewriter.
It's different,
and it's got
like command keys.
Looks very much like
the same kind of-
the same kind of design function like-like
the. .uh. .uh.
.
like the lunar module-the manned lunar. .....
.
module,
but
it's. .uh.. this is different.
This isn
' t. .uh. .this isn't
any kind
of
a space vehicle.
This is
something different.
It's directing,
oh,
what appears to be an apeture device
of some kind that rotates,
rotates to
a azimuth.
It's
indicative an azimuth from a center
line device.
He knows,
he knows the center line in this,
this gives azimuth.
There's another black-no-think it's gray,
gray button with
appears to be the word elevation
or something on
it.
It's
some abbreviation for elevation,
I
think.
There's
a larger
red buttons.
These buttons are square,
by
the way.
Larger
red button near the some-some kind of
a interlock action
button of some kind.
It,
it generates an action.
I
get
different impressions for color on the screen.
Like
different ways of sensing-I 'm-get like an infra-red picture
one minute;
I
get
a different picture of the
other;
almost
like
a camera picture.
Pictures I'm getting-when
I
look
at the screen or tanks. .uh. .heavy
vehicles,
armored vehicles
-some mock-up targets.
It's like it's-they're targets
of some kind.
There's
a very strange,
there's
a pitch and
yaw type element
to this control system which appears
to
be strange for
a vehicle.
#14;
Turn your volume up
a little
(talking
to analyst).
+40
#19.5;
This
is
a vehicle with
a pitch and
a yaw control
This is
really weird.
Secondary backup power systems there.
There's
a manual override system for
the computer.
The
computer
is very
small,
black box;
main part of the computer
is only
got
a light to show that it's on.
It's like
a
cassette load or something there for
a loading system.
Shielded,
very well shielded.
Like with metal.
Almost like
it's physically protected versus electronically.
Sharp,
shock absorbing-padded.. uh..
he,
he,
he's controlling some
kind of targeting.
I
get this feeling like he can access
at least
3 targets at one
time,
and instantly respond
to
this key pad system.
Very,
very well protected area though.
Approved For Release 2000/08;
8R000200520001 -3
S8R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08rf£j|41^
#19.5:
There' s-controls that go from this system to the driver
as well which has
to do with. .uh.
.
.
.
.
#14:
Flight Contro,
1 can't hear you. (Talking to the analyst)
#19.5:
Just
a minute.
Hang on
a minute.
#14:
Control room-control-yeah,
turn your volume
up.
(Talking
to the analyst)
PAUSE
(#14 receiving EEI from analyst)
#14:
Okay #19.5, P ve got to get another paper
fill! of notes here.
#19.5:
I
think
I've been disturbed here by this siren.
#14:
Okay.
Will
do.
(talking
to the analyst.)
Okay #19.5,
we
11 pause now for debrief.
PAUSE
#14:
We're now ready for debrief.
Okay.
#19.5:
Uh .
.
. I
guess
I'll, 'I'll draw my first,
very first impression.
Page
1.
I was. .uh. .like looking at this. .uh. .what appeared
to be some form of upside down boat,
and it was sideways
to me-going away from me,
and it had like
a very heavy metal
overhang.
It's kind of like
this.
And,
there was like ovals
which
I
at first thought were windows,
but they're not.
It's just
a pattern down
the side.
There was five of these.
And, then—-that,
we'll call that
A,
and then the second
impression
I
got was of a nose, believe
it
or not.
Just
this
like
this bullet shape snout piece that had
form to
it.
I
can't draw this very well.
It's just like
a
pointed snout.
I kept-had to call it
a snout,
for some
reason.
It was in some way associated
to
A.
And,
then
I
had
an impression of—.---this
one another thing
..uh..
..Oh!
I know what it was
call it
C.
I had an impression of looking sideways at something that
went like
this,
and there was like
a,
a very
thin,
narrow
glass window.
Almost like this.
Very thick.
Almost
prismatic,
and directly over it was shielding.
Some form
of shielding,
and almost looked like
an
eye.
It was a
shielding, very heavy shielding around
it,
and
I think this
might have been
the upper part of the snout.
That's why
I called it
a snout;
because it looked
very much like an
eye on this side,
and
it was that kind of an impression
that
I was seeing,
but it was very definitely
a very narrow
dented like window.
Approved For Release 200
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2OOO/O^0bNfitfp
0788R000200520001 -3
#31:
#14:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
Aha... okay,
along with this you have something about
Bs;
you said the
Bs.
No,
no,
Vs.
Vs.
Okay,
the Vs then.
Oh!
The
Vs,
okay,
yeah.
V pattern,
okay,
have something to do with the nose?
Yeah.
I had
a pattern.
Let me call it D.
Sandwich,
sandwich of Vs.
Yeah,
sandwich of Vs.
Okay.
Okay,
what,
what
I
had was
I had,
it was like layered
Vs;
one on
top of another.
Because
I was trying to get
inside of this thing to see what it was,
and
I
got an
impression
of
this.
.
.
. .1
' 11 show you what
I
got an impression
of here.
I
got an impression of
this kind of thing,
in which,
now,
this
is
a
very
thick shield
of metal.
I,
I
kept getting this word shielding going through my mind
you know,
all the time,
armored shielding like,
and inside
of this were these
V patterns. .... .like
this.
This is
like
a cross-section,
okay,
and inside of that was another
piece of shielding.
. .this is
a lot larger scale than
it
actually
is.
This had Vs... it was like. ,uh. .cardboard!
It's almost like
layers of cardboard;
one on top
of the
other with like the cardboard honeycomb
in between
it.
It just kept going like this
in sheets and
it was like
5 layers of this.... and
this,
this is
a cross-section.
Do you have
a feel for what part of the object it was?
Is that
The front.
.
The front?
Very definitely the front of
the object.
Somewhere up
in here-see, this,this is looking around the side,
okay.
I should put that arrow there.
It.. kind of goes around
to the side,
and
this,
this thing here was somewhere up
in front.
Okay.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
000200520001-3
#19.5:
And,
I
got the feeling that this,
this snout,
okay was
also somewhere up in-like up
in here-this area..uh..
front top.
And this was,
part
of,
part of
C.
#14:
Okay.
At this time why don't we turn
the tape over?
#19.5:
Okay.
#14:
We are now ready to continue with
the debrief.
#19.5:
Okay.
Page
2.
#31:
Okay.
Let's see,
going through the notes sandwich of
Us;
one on
top of the other to do with the front of
the
object;
hooded window .shield,
but very narrow metal blinders
over
the top;
something to do with nose. ... .uh
okay...
okay,
then we moved, #14 keyed you to
what is
• the principle
function of the object.
#19.5:
Right.
#31:
Okay.
Maybe just some words would help here to start with.
You had this feeling of very powerful
#19.5:
Yeah.
Oh!
I
got a
#31:
Okay.
#19.5:
Okay,
I
got
a picture
of
a,
like a blow up
of the point
of
a needle and it was very shinny and
I kept getting
recurrent V white flashes,
and I'll show you what the
flashes look like.
I
call this a needle be-I'd seen
a
blow up of
a needle before,
and that's what this reminded
me of.
I'm going to try and get this as best
I
can here.
It was like looking at the end of
a needle or straight pin
that's blown up,
and in this case
it was like polished
aluminum or something.
It had a... very definitely was
reflecting light like offf of
it.
That kind of thing.
And,
you could see
this,
this,
like the spun marks in the
metal going this way,
and then
I was getting a...uh..
like
a white,
a really incandescent white area with
a
pattern
of 4 blue flames coming out like this;
and this was
pulsing,
and. .uh.
. like
this,
and this kept pulsing.
That's
the,
the power that
I was feeling.
#31:
Okay.
Form of power out,
and radiating pattern very strong,
okay;
you said,
I see from #14' s notes here,
you
say,
I
see
cement!
Uh...but,
earlier
in
the session.
. .the very acquisition
phase you had cement
or asphalt.
Approved For Release 2000/01/01“
:
0788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07^OT^nrr
r;dA-R©pa6yiois88R000200520001 -3
#19.5:
Yeah.
That was like
a flooring or something.
I was
giving a quick and dirty of the surroundings of the object.
#31:
Okay.
Right.
Okay,
then my notes and #14s pick up and
say drive like an auto but has no steering wheel.
#19.5:
Right.
I
don't,
you
know,
I
don't,
it has
a dashboard
-
looks like
an automobile,
but there's no steering wheel
there.
No-you know,
no column or anything like that.
But,
the seats,
the seats really unique.
Here,
let me sketch that
in,
if
I
can.
This will be kind
of like from the side.
I
got
an impression of something
here;
this came around.
That would be the dash like.
The
wraparound dash type affair,
and back here would be this
.
...it's like
very thick,
very thick seat arrangement.
It's almost like the seats were armor plated.
That kind
of
affect.
They're extremely heavy.
And,
some kind of controls
or something right here.
And,
this was like dials here,
and
the ceiling kind of came down like this;
came around,
and
I
got a feeling like there was bent vents or something here.
And,
there was something else that protruded out
of here,
okay,
and
it was like one of
the,
maybe
it didn't protrude
out of the front itself,
but hung down to the side or
something.
It was like
a camera type thing.
Some kind of
camera type thing.
That's literally about
it.
That was
on
the left side,
and the side piece over here,
it was very
well paneled with padding type affair.
You know.
This,
this
snap
in padding.
Very heavy padding;
almost like insulation
and seat belt.
Very modern type interior.
This
is
all plating up in here,
black.
Something like that.
I know
my drawing is lousy.
#31:
Umm. .. .actually ,
I'm sitting here rather impressed with
it.
Ha,
ha,
ha,
it's pretty damn good perspective..
#19.5:
It's very
clear,
very clear in my mind,
you know,
when
I
was watching
it.
This was like
very heavy plate.
Almost
like it was cut from steel block.
#31:
Okay.
Now,
you're talking about what,
the,
what you're
sketching
in is
the rear of this seat.
What is supposed to
be the rear of the
seat.
#19.5:
Yeah,
yeah,
right.
This kind of affect.
#31:
Okay.
When we
go baek-you've done this in pencil,
so when
we
go back and do this
in
ink,
I would like you
to label
all those things.
Now,
I have
a couple of questions.
Approved For Release 2000f
I-00788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08/9S|i^^n>ri>708R000200520001 -5
#19.5:
Wait
a sec-this is
a,
a steel wall right there,
by the
way.
That's
a steel wall.
#31:
Okay.
Okay.
That's
a steel wall behind the seat.
#19.5:
Yeah.
Right.
And,
this is steel plate up here.
#31:
Okay.
What you're doing now is drawing some lines on the
above and apparently forward of the dash.
#19.5:
Yeah-of the dash,
right.
That's very much
like what the
driver,
you know,
that whoever 's operating this thing by
driving,
and this right here
is some kind of control panel.
#31:
Okay.
And,
that's by
the,
the right arm.
That's the knob
with the bumpers on
it.
#19.5:
Yeah,
yeah;
it's over here
too.
It's like dual handed
controls
or something.
#31:
You have one
on
the left side then,
as well.
#19.5:
Yeah.
#31:
Okay.
All right.
#19.5:
And..uh...
#31:
All right.
Is there anything more?
How about... did you
have
a feeling for the method by which the person that
sits in this seat would move into and out
of this seat,
#19.5:
Through some kind of a hatchway,
which would be over here.
There's
a hatch like right here.
Then,
there's another
wall then the other guys over here
on
the right.
So—well
there's actually more than one hatch
to this area.
I
get
a feeling like
there' s. .. .let me lightly stencil them in
here with dotted lines,
I
got
a feeling like there was
a
hatch here,
like in between his position and the co-driver..
#31:
Okay.
So,
that
you have- you've drawn that's in the
foreground on the right side of the left-hand seat.
#19.5:
Right.
It's,
well,
it's right next to the seat back.
#31:
Next to his elbow back?
#19.5:
Yeah.
#31:
Okay.
Approved For Release 2000/08;
[788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08/1
8R000200520001 -3
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31 j
#19.5:
#31:
#19. 5:
#31:
#19.5:
And,
you see it's
like, where that wall,
that partition
here
is.
See,
this wall comes all
the way down here like
that ....
Oh,
I
see,
okay.
All right.
So,
it's in
the wall.
It's
in
the wall,
yeah.
Okay.
So it's in ex—it's
a hatch that goes to the rear
of the seat,
and is located in between. ,uh. .possibly
two
positions.
Right,
yeah.
Well,
I'll do a little sketch down here.
It's very easy.
Like you have two seats;
this being the
dash area,
okay,
and you have
the wall back here,
the
hatch
is here,
and then there, s a hatch
in
the floor,
but
it's
a lot smaller.
Like. ,uh. .right here,
and then
I
got
a feeling like there's. .uh. .possibly an overhead hatch,
but, it's off-centered someway.
Like here.
Okay.
You know.
It would be..uh..up here like
this.
Okay,
okay.
About
3 hatches to that compartment.
Okay.
Now,
you just. .earlier when we were trying to hatch
hash this out here,
before you did the overview-the overhead
view,
you mentioned. .. .something that may be separating the
two compartments.
Uh. .this,
this compartment—
Or,
did
I understand you.....
.
. .this compartment from the other that the other two people
are
in.
.
Okay
.
Okay.
Very clearly ..uh.. .the driver and the co-driver
I
think are in the same compartment.
Looks like a box up
forward.
Okay.
And then
to the
rear,
I
get a feeling like
to the rear of
them,
above
to the right just
a little bit off to the center
line
of this vehicle
is where
the other
two people are.
Approved For Release 2000,
0788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08/OTTH7PRBP55WS8R000200520001 -3
#31:
Okay.
#19.5:
This being
the,
the center
line,
right here.
#31:
Okay.
Well,
good.
#19.5:
Is that detailed enough?
#31:
That's... I' 11 tell you,
that's,
that's a work of art.
A veritable work of art
.
#19.5:
Okay.
What else?
#31 s
Okay,
okay.
Now,
that was in response
to the question
,.uh.. where
do the,
where are the personnel which operate,
where are the personnel located which operate the vehicle.
Okay.
#19.5:
Right.
#31:
Okay .You had them in the boxes or compartments,
and you
broken the overall object down into consisting of
just what you said,
was just two general compartments
one forward and low ,
the other one
is up ,
rear ,
and to
the right.
#19.5:
Right.
One other thing you should be aware of-there are,
there are pedals in this thing.
#31:
Okay.
#19.5:
Very large,
black pedals
.....but it ain't
a
bicycle,
ha,
ha.
#31:
Ha,
ha,
ha.
Okay,
now,
let me just ask you some questions
regarding sketch
3 here,
overview.
#19.5:
Aha.
#31:
Ummm.
.
. .is the dash,
first of
all,
we have the compartment
as being one entire area,
not segmented
in any between
the two positions,
is
the dash,
as it moves around front,
did you have
a feeling of
it,
that it was
a one continuous
system or was
it segmented two identical systems;
one for
each position.
#19.5:
No,
no.
No,
no.
This,
the one on
the
left
is
a primary;
the one on the right is
a secondary
or an auxiliary
to the
one
on
the
left.
The one on the right appeared to have
everything that the one on
the left had,
but
it,
it wasn't
really
there.
It was just
a wire assemble;
like a wire
assembly
off of the main
dash.
You know.
All the
dials are there,
and all
the controls are there,
and every
thing else,
but the guts
to
it weren't there.
It was like
Approved For Release 2000/08^Qp®^^^^^^^R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/084
Ma
ggaa000200520001-3
#19.5:
#31 s
#19.5:
#31
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
...the whole ... the real controller assembly,
you know,
the electronics you don’t see... it's all on the left-
hand dash,
and the
guy
on
the right is just. .uh. .it'
s
like one of these learn to drive type things.
You know..
Okay.
....where the instructor's got all the real controls,
and
the student's only allowed to use
He's,
he's,
he just taps into the
same,
the main system.
So you're saying,
essentially,
the main control layout is
on the left....
It's on
the
left,
right.
...left position,
and that the one on the right is just
tapped over to the
left.
It does not have its own unilateral
system capable
of operating by itself
.
Yeah
...no,
no,
no.,
and
I really,
I think that the one on
the right is..uh..is very seldom ever,
if it's used at all,
very seldom ever used.
It'd be an emergency backup like
system.
Okay
.
Probably,
possibly
a shunt to manual control versus
electronics.
Okay.
All right.
Now,
moving through here-moving right
along,
you have,
as we said,
in my notes though,
I'm going
back over to catch up.
..front left,
primary operator;
front right,
backup operator;
different place for other two.
In #14's notes here there is the comment that. ... (whistling)
primary operator in front left;
co-operator
in front right...
one has his hands on levers or handles and there are three.
Uh...no,
that's the two guys in the back compartment.
Okay.
Okay.
That's right,
that's right.
Cause now looking at
my notes,
I
see you have
a different place for the other
two;
you see all four,
but you see plates or boxes
in between.
Right.
It's like
I was looking through the walls of the
boxes
or plates,
compartments
in this.....
Okay.
#14 directed you to focus on the other,
the other
personnel,
and what they
do.
And,
that's
all right
now in my notes
I
see that's where one has levers and handles.
Right.
Right.
Approved For Release 2000/0
R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/0
200520001-3
#31:
Okay.
Let's run
a quick through
to my notes here,
to
refresh your memory.
Levers,
handles,
three handles,
looks
through rubber eye piece like
a rubber bulb.
Heavy.....
something,
heavy over right shoulder with slots down the
side.
#19.5:
Yeah.
Let me,
let me sketch this because it's going to
answer a lot of your questions,
I think.
Uh...okay...
there's
a heavy.. .see if
I can get this
in perspective now...
that.. fair
job
..the other one is... a heavy block type
arrangement with.. an additional piece that comes out like
this from the side.
. .something like
this,
and there's like
..like one of those big rubber eye socket type pieces on
the-this side,
like
this.
I
had the feeling like there was
...two slots that came down the side for some reason......
and... the operator... I'm going to... do this... I' 11 put the
seat
in here very lightly because the seat will block out
most of the view so I'll dot,
dot the seat
in.
This is like
the head part
of the seat,
and the back of the seat,
and then
this was actually inside of a... .very narrow type area.
This
being the roof of the,
the vehicle,
and also very padded
and
then,
right up here in front of the seat was like a...
like
a control panel with
a flat section built into the
front,
and this was
a key pad.
There's like these double
bar type things that come out. .this, ,, that you rest the
heel-your heels of your hands on it so you can lean on
it,
and still manipulate the keys... and there was like
a row,
double row of boxes like
this,
and
I
said there was like
four boxes to
a row.
And.. I just got
a feeling like there,
there's some kind of
an electronics there,
you
know;
IC type
of electronics,
and
I
got
a feeling like there was a blank here and
a screen,
and
this,
this pictographic screen had the capacity of
producing more than just a camera type picture.
Superimposed
of the screen
I saw a double... red line that was overlayed
and like sitting
up over that was
a very light circle,
and
then there was... like,
I
got
a feeling like this was some
kind
of
a minnie computer of some sort here,
and all it had.
was an indicator light
.
#31:
Okay.
You have that
in
the upper
left.
#19.5:
Upper left.
Yeah.
I'll draw arrows
to all this stuff.
That was blank,
and there was some kind
of,
of command
squares here
of some sort,
you know,
great buttons glowing
green,
and blue,
and white.
Large activator type button
here.
It was red,
and,
then,
of course,
the key pad all
different buttons;
and over here other forms of electronics
like radios and intercoms- and stuff like that.
And,
this
was all
like. .uh. .sitting in front of this seat.
Down here
there was some kind of a... console type thing that had like
a leverr coming out this way
and then
had double
lever
Approved For Release 2000/08/0
8-00788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/
0|)788R000200520001-3
#19.5:
..this way. ... .That's the
3 leavers
I
was. talking about.
And,
I,
I don't know.... what that
is. ... .but,
then back
over here
I get a feeling like
there was like hydraulic
tubes,
copper hydraulic tubes coming down like this
and some coming out running down the side like this;
.and,
then back in behind this seat,
the other guy's
seat, was like this. ...... .these are also very heavily armored
seats... the other guy's seat came back like this.
Back here
and he had some form of ... .looks like a switching panel or
something up here.
But,
down here, which
is very interesting
down here was kind of like
a thing that went like
this,
and
it was like.... did you ever
see the inside
of an egg cart?
#31:
Aha.
#19.5:
Looked like rows of eggs,
like this.
And there was also
a lot
of,
you know,
padding up in here;
the snap on type
padding,
snap up type padding.
#31:
Now,
are you putting that
in the background?
#19.5:
Yeah. It's in the background.
And,
there was,
oh,
there was
there was some kind
of..
I don't know how
to
describe it.
almost like
a walkway right here.....
like,
you go down in
there,
you know,
and
right here was
the,
the front wall looking down through this,
this flooring
like.
That's the front wall where the garbage compartment
is,
okay.
His seat was up there like that.
#31:
Okay.
You're sketching that down,
and in the corner between
the two seats ,
okay
.
#19.5:
Yeah. and then there's some other kind of
went like
this.
I don't know how to draw this.
#31:
That's fine.
That's fine.
Ummm
#19.5:
Oh!
He had
a
he had also
a vent type hanging up here.
#31:
Okay.
Now,
in sketch 4 you're putting that in... forward
in the background of the left hand position.
#19.5:
Yeah.
It's right up over the..uh..
#31:
Left on
the sketch.
#19.5:
Yeah.
This,
this bent thing is right up over the dash
panel that he's
got.
#31:
Okay.
Approved For Release 2000/1
788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/0'
8R000200520001 -3
#19.5:
Yeah.
Something he can look through
I
guess.
#31:
Okay.
#19.5:
There's something else behind this block,
but,
I couldn't
..1 tell you,
I
just couldn't get anything out of this block
of metal except the grooves.
#31:
Yeah.
Let me ask you
a few questions now,
since we're
finishing up
on sketch
4.
The.. uh.. did you have
a perception
of the function of
the egg carton type thing?
#19.5:
None at all,
but
I
did... I got
a feeling after
.awhile
after looking at
this, -this bare,
this dash panel up here,
okay,
that this was some form of
a fire control center,
okay.
#31:
Okay.
#19.5:
Oh!
There's something else really strange out
it.
I
s-
could swear
I
could distinctly see
a button that said
elevation
on
it.
And,
I
saw,
and then
I
saw
a button that
says..uh..I
can't remember what
I
said it said..
#31:
Ummm....you said it looked like ft was an abbreviation for
elevation.
#19.5:
Yeah.
That-I
remember that one,
but... pitch and yaw.
I
saw pitch and yaw which really blew me away,
because
I
wouldn't... this is not
a space vehicle,
but,
you
know,
that's what
I associate
it with,
but
it,
it actually said
pitch and yaw on these buttons,
you know.
These gray
buttons.
#31:
Aha,
and do you have
a feeling from where those buttons
were?
#19.5:
Yeah.
Right up here on
the
key pad.
#31:
Okay.
So,
that's in front of the left hand position,
on the key pad ,
there
#19.5:
Yeah.
Right.
And...uh...
#31:
Okay.
Let me whip through my notes here,
before we
discard or move on
to the next session-next. .uh. .sketch.
#19.5:
Okay.
#31:
Okay.
(Garbled)see
grooves. .can' t tell
if inside or outside
..side mounted tubes;
small like hydraulic shocks
on
a car
banded together coming out at right angles from the block
thing.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 ; QA
8R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/084fi&*£iA£Bfi&fiJtt2&&fiflaA200520001 -3
#19.5;
Yeah.
Okay.
That's-I'm going to have
to draw this
separate without screwing up that picture
there.
#31;
Okay,
well,
all right,
well,
let's see if we can still do
something with 4.
#19.5:
Okay.
#31;
Everything looks padded,
soft fibrous padding packages.
Now,
I picked up on the intercom that you had the 4 inch
by
8 inches faces 4 to
a stack,
two stacks.
Is that-
#19.5:
That's right there.
That's in...
#31:
Okay.
That's on
the right side of the-
#19.5:
-of the console panel.
#31:
—panel,
panel.
Got
something looks like a..uh..
oscilloscope
or
TV screen-
#19.5:
Yeah.
That's right in center of the panel.
#31:
Okay.
Now,
later
on
in the session when we had you move
back
to that panel you said that what-you discussed what
it was that you perceived viewing in that screen or
on
that oscilloscope-
#19.5:
Aha,
that's what
I was going to draw next.
#31:
Okay.
Why don't. you
do that?
#19.5:
Okay.
I'll do that before
I do-do you want me
to do the
shock absorbers looking things first?
Or do you want me
to
do that first?
#31:
Why don't you do
the screen type of latch up first.
#31:
Okay.. What
I perceived. .. .on
the screen,
I keep wanting
to say it's a... picture,
and
I
did get vivid pictures...
of
tanks,
mock-ups,
concrete structures,
armored vehicles.
You know.
Like up
on
a rise or hill or next to
a bluff.
I was getting this flashing images but
I also got other
things like infra-red images,
and things that were really
strange.
I
got the in-like the infra-red image
I
got
looked like
this.
It looked like the screen was divided
in half.
The bottom half being dark,
and then the upper
half was like a... tank vehicle,
but it was built like with
blocks,
okay.
Like all different blocks of-things like
^
this.
Like one of these computer games,
okay.
That kind
r-^
Approved For Release 2000/(|8prapp
|?yf-UU788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08/flZ^£lA-gaEafiiflflZ^R000200520001 -3
#19.5;
of thing.
It was built like out of blocks,
squares.
#31;
Okay.
#19.5;
And,
there was a-they
were colored squares,
okay,
and like
these squares here would be red,
and these squares here would
be... blue,
and
the rest of it would be like green,
and then
lay-overlaying on that was a cross-hatch red line inter-
sected,
like this;
these were moveable,
these would
go
left and right.... up and down,
and then superimposed
over that was
a very light circle,
and it wasn't
a
perfect circle.
It was like
an oval-egg shaped oval,
and
that,
it would also move sideways,
and up and down,
and
that's what
I perceived like infra-red.
#31;
Okay.
But,
did the oval move independent of
#19.5;
Independent of the cross here lines,
the intersecting
cross here lines.
#31;
Okay,
all right.
Okay.
That's sketch
5.
#19.5;
And,
the,
the other pictures were. clear,
precise,
like
camera photos,
you know.
Like
a camera looking through
a TV monitor
or something.
#31;
Okay.
All right.
Did you have any other type of feelings
associated with this. .. .screen?
You've discussed two
different types but you said like and other things.
I
just wanted
to make sure
,
did you have any other peculiar...
#19.5;
Yeah,
I
got,
I
got brief glimpses of pronounced,
you
know,
superimposed numerics,
letters and white,
white, you know,
like computer printout,
and I'm not sure,
they were coming
so quick,
I'm not sure if they were actually superimposed
over the pictures or
if they were just there alone without
the pictures being there.
You know.
Like
a multi-purpose
screen.
#31;
Aha.
#19.5:
That's...
#31:
Okay.
Why don't we label
5 here with
the. .. .uh.
. .well we
can do that later.
That's all right.
We're
going to all
of
'em later,
anyway.
Go back through and label
(garbled)
#19.5:
Label
'em,
yeah.
#31:
Okay,
so,
now for sketch
6.
Approved For Release 200
0788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
>0200520001-3
#19.5:
Now you want the shock absorbers?
#31:
Yes.
Now,
the things associated with da,
da,
da,
da,
da,
umm.....I had it here,....
#19.5:
Big block.
#31:
Side mounted tubes,
small like hydraulic shocks on
a
car, banded together,
coming out at right angles from the
bla-block thing;
not the black thing,
the block thing.
#19.5:
Well,
there was
a.
. .okay,
there was
li(<e
a. piece that came
out like this.... and fastened
to this were
the,
these
large hydraulic,
not large.
They were actually very small
when compared to the block itself..
uh..like this,
and
these went up into a
....up into some kind
of
a
I don't know what to call
it.
I
call it banded together,
because it looked like it was
a band that went like this
around these.
This kind of affect.
Like they held them
in place,
you know.
And,
there was some black form here,
and this was like some kind of sealant of some kind.
Just
like real heavy duty shocks.
I don't know what,
what this
(garbled)
and the same time
I
got
a,
I
got this pattern.
Now,
you're familiar with this pattern.
So,
when
I
get it
it's usually
a jar
top or something a concenteic circle
pattern
like this.
Usually means
a
jar
top,
some kind of
screw top.
I was getting that superimposed on the black
-the back
of the block.
#31:
Okay.
All right.
Now,
this
is,
am
I
correct when
I ask
that this block that you have drawn,
is that block which
is located sort of overhead and to the right,
in sketch 4?
#19.5:
Yes,
yes.
#31:
In the center of sketch
4.
#19.5:
Right the only reason why
I didn't draw this on sketch 4
is it would have messed up
the whole perspective of
#31:
Sure,
sure,
okay.
#19.5:
Oh,
forgot my grooves down the sides.
#31:
Da,
da,
da. ... (garbled)
right angle to the side of the
block everything's got
(garbled)
small packages
#19 . 5 :
Okay
.
#31:
Okay.
Approved For Release 200
-00788R000200520001 -3
Approved For Release 2000/08/tti^ UA-KUFyB-UUf 88R000200520001 -3
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
#31:
#19.5:
Okay.
Going through the notes,
let me
see,
we did that.,
okay,
well,
that's about
it.
I,
the only thing left other
than this hydraulic thing,
shock absorber type thing that
you're talking about.... you had..umm secondary backup
power systems...
Yeah,
just your standard vdmted black metal boxes sitting
on the floors,
you know,
bolted behind the seats
in
various sundried places.
Okay.
Man-manual override systems for computer. ...
.
Right.
That's what
I think those levers were... some kind
of a manual override system.
Okay.
Small black box with only an on light.
That's on
the sketch,
okay,
I
think.
Right.
You had this feeling of cassette systems load: into,,
shock absorbing
padded.....
Yeah,
no,
it's,
I had like
a,
I
got an impression of some
kind of
a cassette insert type thing on this panel.
I
don't know what it was.
You know.
It's like when you
want to give pre-commands of something you would
just load
it in with
a cassette.
Rather than wasting your time
talking to this machine all day.
Okay.
And you had the feeling that it could access
up to
3 target at one
time.
Yeah.
The guy sitting in that seat could
access.
3 targets.
He may be only firing on one,
but he could
be accessing
3 at the
same
time.
Okay.
Well,
that's it.
Before we go back over and,
and
well,
we'll do the sketches in black ink and label,
make
the appropriate labels and everything, which
I'll walk
through you with. . .youhave anything more you want to add
regarding the target object?
Nope.
That's all.
Your feelings about
it.
It's some kind
of a fire control vehicle.
It's very well
armored and very modern and very potent.
Other than
that,
no,
I don't have anything to add
So,
we'll end then.
Approved For Release 2000/08/0
8R000200520001-3
pS^c^Fgr
2000/08/0^
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
©
pf*
r
\/frjzU W£LL
/&***
ffojOT roP
OF OBJECT
g
OtffiL PfiTTEfi^
Z>t>u)U S. 06
^
Bor ioorco»^ 00tt>s
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
/
Approve<#fc£r Release 2000/08/0#
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
•^°A
N*
(
- " —
~
>
'sU-f
a)
'SM/ecoep
Vi£i*)iV& pofirs
f
-
f
tp/*
o'1 ** 6*
8|,<-K«£i
pftt)
CvrtoM'i
OF
moea
b£fl-r
'N
StAf'
c
•>
[
FU>oA
l
,
(fATEfJ
!
I
aJ>Gha*.
4=#=^
"v
\
Co-Z>AlVEX\
SEAT
r
%
Ui$7TL{-f
TOP
l/i£tJ
7D /IU/S7&A7&
//A7&J loCS77ir/-)S
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/0^
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
***
C#$$*tT£
£(j&/AT70jl) gOfTO*$
WirifrTZ
*-cs
ACTlOi)
.
switch
jJJ
V.ei&A*’0
.
Approved For R^fease 2000/08fe7o^
yg3^&DP96-00788R000200520001-3
SG1A Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/'SEGREI00788R000200520001 -3
MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
5 September 1980
SUBJECT:
Session D-29 Targeting Data
1.
(S/NOFORN)
This
u/as #01' s first session against this target,
the OPSEC
portion
of Project 8003
(sub-Project 8003d).
This was #01 's first session
against any aspect
of Project 8003 since 25 June
1980.
Prior to that date,
#01 had performed four sessions against 8003a
(CCC25,
CCC33,
CCC41,
CD02)
using diverse targeting methods
(geo coordinates,
aerial photo of target
facility)
and one session against 8003b using geo coordinates
(CD63).
2.
(S/N0F0RN)
It must
be noted that sub-Project 8003d
is an otherwise unrelated
OPSEC oriented aspect of Project 8003 which
is directed against
a commensurate
piece of allied equipment as opposed to the primary hostile equipment.
It must also be noted that considerable time had elapsed since #01 had had
any
RV
involvement whatsoever with this Project,
and was unaware prior
to
this session of any contiguity/relationship
(however marginal)
between this
session and those
in which he was involved earlier.
In
fact,
#01 was
unaware of who the project analyst was for this session until communications
between the analyst and interviewer was established
30 minutes into the session
(see para 4 below).
3.
(S/N0F0RN)
#01 was only informed by interviewer at session start that he
(the interviewer)
had
in
his possession
an envelope
(8%"xll"
size brown
manila w/official markings)
containing
a photograph of the actual target
object.
#01 was instructed to focus on the target object
at this time
(time
of session start).
The interviewer was not aware of the target object;
neither
through verbal communication nor by having seen the target photograph prior
to its insertion into the envelope by the analyst.
The interviewer was
cognizant only of the written EEI which were provided him immediately prior
to the session
(see TAB
B),
this report.
4.
(S/N0F0RN)
The session was monitored by the analyst,
who was located
in
a separate room of the facility.
The analyst was cognizant
of the target
object but was/is not cognizant of finite details.
On several occasions,
in-
session guidance was attempted
by the analyst.
However,
due to the analyst's
unfamiliarity with the audio equipment being employed,
communications between
the interviewer and analyst were not established until approximately
30 minutes
into the session.
At that time,
the analyst directed the interviewer to focus
#01' s attention
on the oscilloscope/TV/ screen like device which had already
been mentioned by #01
in
a preceding unsolicited part of his spontaneous
general description.
CLASSIFIED
(Dfr tfU
q,
DECLASSIFY ON
<9 S'(Jf
7 b
REVIEW ON
EXTENDED BY
Approved For Release 20^jpB^^:|^pF^96-00^i8RiQQQ2QQ52QQ(llJ2.
unT RRT,Trfi?!4'RT,T7. TmrnREIGHKAIXOHAiS
O lJLaJ.
I
I 0
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
5.
(S/N0F0RN)
A thorough verbal debriefing was conducted immediately after
session completion,
during which #01 made pencil sketches.
Upon completion
of the pencil sketches,
an upcoming RV session required vacating the facility.
#01 was escorted to the Administrative Office area by the analyst, was
isolated
in the rear conference area,
and was allowed to trace his original sketches
using
ink.
These finished sketches were inspected by the analyst immediately
on completion.
All additions suggested by the analyst consisted of additional
labeling
of sketch portions for purposes of clarity.
All such additions were
made by #01 in his own hand.
6.
(S/N0F0RN)
After completion of the entire session,
to include final
tracing of the sketches,
the analyst recalled one area of possibly meaningful
data which had not been sketched in as great
a detail as could have been
accomplished.
#01 had drawn
a clear sketch of the upper cubicle
(sketch #4)
and a "blow-up"
of the "oscilloscope" type device
(sketch #5)
but had not drawn
a "blow-up"
of the entire control panel
in which the oscilloscope device was
located.
Upon realizing the potential value of such
a sketch,
the analyst
requested #01 return to the rear of the Administrative area and provide
a
detailed sketch of the entire control panel.
During the interim
(between
sketch sequences) #01 had received no,
repeat no data feedback regarding the
nature of this target,
and had only received verbal accolades regarding
apparent high resolution,
highly. apparent correlation,
and the relayed
amazement of both the analyst and the Branch Chief.
At no time during the
interim period was #01 informed of the target
ID
or true nature of the
target object.
Care was taken to insure the post-script sketch
(#7) contained
only data originally provided either
in sketchs #4 and 5
or during verbal
portions of the session/debriefing.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
V
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001 -3
-TAttenuc
,
COx»TTCO<~
e<je*xA£>
Pyb/Lout-
p/fleS
iC/
o
.
.ffi
n^pcE-r
ACQUtSfriojJ)
t*
frfictitu
•
-
op Equtfi.)
ffid/kfC f /OSi/cA tjoa
etc.
ptAMO&GO CftA/A-
{ASStSTA+JT)
APJOOA^p FL0OA. PiAtb
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001 -3
CctflW)t'
f4D20‘-€$
1Q0000
0 »gai
BOB
«
HBBBll
M «MMMV
a«
£c£*/Arrcf^ S^rrOjd
fed ’U/TlATB
OIL ACTIO£>
SifitTCH
T*
VZ'i&OPP’”.
Approved Fort^tease 2000/08ilftZ.^^^p96-00788R000200520001-3
Approvec^Flf^elease 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
/
>
’
X--
SM/ecoei)
•
Po/Lt%
.i*> c
**%>><***
^A/zCu
**2^
CO^Jgo^
V®6*
fl'T*** ^
r
vUMGff *cA1
'
thtTVJi
f
TVfi
l/t£t*)
7D /UtfS7>2/)7^
lOC/>T7cr/J£
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R00Q200520001-3