a
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#31:
Had
a
.
.
.
#66:
All
right.
Tell me about this area.
#31:
I had a feeling here that there
is
.
.
.on
this side.
.
.
a little bit
of
a terrace.
A little bit
of
a terrace.
.
.
going off.
.
to
the open.
And these trees
are here.
I
do
not
.
.
I
see,
I
do
see,
I had
.
.
when
I was
waiting,
for you,
I
had a
.
.
feeling of
.
.
.
a
.
.
.
low,
earthen mound.
I had a feeling
that there were some sort
of hasty positions
and under the tree
at this point.
Possibly only
a twenty foot or thirty
foot
stretch.
Had a
feeling of one or
two
.
.
.
there were people
here,
but
not
a whole bunch.
I'm going to
.
.go up the rest of the way now.
PAUSE
#66:
Okay.
PAUSE
#31:
I
got
a
.
.
.
-
PAUSE
a
.
.
acute.
.
pulling out
a ...
a feeling
of
a
.
.
of
a high point
in the
.
.
.
what
.
.
in the corner I'm going to
now.
And
I want
to
say,
I keep getting
a picture of a cement wall
or wall of some kind or low building roof with
a
.
. with
a feeling of
a
.
.
a look down their
throat place.
Covering
.
.
.
Its
.
.
.
got
a
low round part wall around
it.
Something that
a
crew sort of weapon would just look over the top
and down the
.
.
on to the open field.
Doesn't
seem like
its super high.
But anyway,
I had
a
feeling that there were
two.
One,
down on the
right
and off of this thing and one up on top of
this
thing.
Arid they were
.
.
a
.
.at least one
major thing to cover this
area.
Like
a keystone.
Some sort of
a wall thing and
its light
in
.
.
.
my imagery
it keeps coming through
light.
PAUSE
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#31:
And its
in that
far corner.
And
.
.
.
its
.
.
.
Let me
see.
PAUSE
Oh boy.
I
don’t know how you get
a Charlie Horse.
PAUSE
#66:
Do you think you're ready to draw some of
those things you’ve shown us now?
That you've
seen?
#31:
Well,
I’m trying to figure out this last thing
before
I
lose
it.
#66
:
Okay
.
#31:
I have
a feeling that this
thing.
.
.
It shows
light.
It shows
light,
but
it
.
.
.
And
I
got
the gun
in the corner and another gun off on the
side,
but
I
did not have.
.
.
I have
a feeling
that
the wall though
is longer and
is not just
a little thing.
But that
the gun sits
in the
corner of
a somewhat longer wall but maybe only
forty
feet.
Its ramparted around
it,
I mean its
got
a wall around
it.
Its
flat.
I keep pulling
out
a cement base,
like what would be
a flat top
roof.
But
its
low,
its only
.
.
maybe ten
feet
up.
Just enough elevation
to look out
on the
field.
Its not
like
a high rooftop.
#66:
Okay.
PAUSE
#31:
I
don't know what happened,
suddenly,
I
felt
like
I had ...
Oh
!
I know what
it was.
I
was low-crawling across the
field.
Have you
ever tried to swim
in grass?
Ha ha.
Jesus.
I
was scared out
there.
I
felt
like
I was out
in
the middle of
.
.
.
Ha ha ha.
I
felt
like
I was
out
in the middle of
.
.
I was doing the night
walk,
Sucker.
Ha ha ha ha
.
I was walking
around on my hands and knees
in the grass.
Ha
ha.
#66:
As
in
Infantry training when you proceed very
cautiously?
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#31:
That’s right.
Man,
I was keeping
a low profile.
Aint nobody gonna ketch me against the skyline.
Ha ha ha
.
PAUSE
#66:
That’s interesting you come back with that
feeling now.
#31:
Well,
when
I
said,
I’m in the
grass,
I meant
I
was
in the
grass.
I wasn't walking
in
it.
I
was swimming through
it,
like this.
#66:
Okay.
PAUSE
#31:
I want
to
do this while
I was thinking about
it.
These things were bigger,
their thicker.
#66:
Okay,
the object
that you've drawn here,
where
did you see that?
#31:
These are the ones that
are just sitting on top
of the ground.
.
.
was the feeling
I
had.
#66:
Have you ever seen anything like that before?
#31:
Yeah,
I
have.
PAUSE
But,
yeah.
I have.
They're
.
.
.
The feeling
that
I
have
.
.
.
Well,
I'm sure.
.
I’m sure of
what they
are.
But
I
didn't try
.
.
I tried not
to think about what they were when
I was
doing.
The hints
in my description of them was very.
.
was
a very feature type and not
a purpose function,
type.
But now that the session
is over,
what
I
feel they are.
.
.
they are not command denitated.
That's
a tilt bar rod on the top.
Okay.
That's
what
I
feel
it
is.
And
I had two types of feel-
ings.
Now,
I
don't know which one
is which,
but
one
- Oh and there's
a little thing on
it like
that.
That
is
a tilt bar.
Not
an antenna.
The bar is
pushed over and
it
detinates your mine.
Its
an
anti-tank thing.
#66:
Um hm.
PAUSE
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#66:
Its
an anti-tank mine?
#31:
Anti-tank mine,
right.
PAUSE
And they
can either be buried or,
you know,
.
.
.
But
I
mean,
hasty,
hasty seeding of this
type thing;
if you've
got
a canolized area or
something where
it
doesn't matter if they're
buried or not,
you just
lay them out.
Okay.
Because they cause
just
as much trouble.
If you
have
a place where somebody could sneak by
it
if they knew
it was there,
then you'd dig
it
in,
you know,
try
to camoflauge
it.
I had two
kinds of
feelings.
I had the feeling of that
the top of that thing
.
.
.
that the rod was
about that
thick,
pencil thickness.
Okay,
a
regular lead pencil,
number
2.
Thickness.
And
that
it was
in
fact round and that
it had some
kind of
a top on
it.
But
then,
at
another point
in
time,
I had another feeling.
Okay.
I
had
another
flick.
You know what
a Perk 25,
a whip
antenna looks like on
a Perk 25?
You know its
sort
of concave.
And its maybe about
5/8' s of
an inch wide and it'll bend any place
if you
.
.
#66:
Its
like
a tape measure,
and
it comes out
.
.
.
#31:
Yeah,
like
a tape measure.
I had
a feeling
of
a shape like that
as well associated with
it.
#66:
Um hm.
#31:
So,
.
.
this height
is
- what
' d
I
say,
- its
about
like
that.
I was trying to stand next
to one and the thing was
about
.
.
.
three feet
No,
not three
feet.
Yeah,
maybe three
feet
because
I'm just under
five,
just under six feet.
So,
a little.
.
.
like thirty
inches.
No.
Thirty— four inches,
okay.
And I’ll
draw the
other thing on this
.
And that
is
.
.
Okay ,
a
feeling of this
concave.
Concave thing.
Okay.
As being maybe
an alternate.
Okay,
but
the sucker
is about
inches high off the ground.
They're
just
seeded,
they're just
laying on the top.
Okay and
I'll draw
a little arrow here.
And this thing was black or
its dark,
dull.
PAUSE
i, ^
?t~i
—
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#31:
Dull
color.
I won’t say
its black.
Dull,
shiney-
less color.
PAUSE
All
right.
I wanted to draw that one.
That's
Nubmer One.
Number Two.
The reason I’m doing these
is because
I
like
.
.
that way
I
can refer them when
I
do the
other sketches.
Okay.
Number
2,
I
just had
a
feeling for
.
.
okay,
just
a
.
.
how do
I describe
it.
Okay,
here's
.
.
here’s
.
.
the grass out here
right.
Here’s the grass.
Okay.
But
I had
a feeling
for
a place
in the grass area that was newly or
freshly
turned,
okay,
like this.
And that.
Okay.
But
this,
Number One,
sits
on top of the
group.
Just laying out there
in
front
of God and
everybody.
And this
is newly turned soil.
Or,
you know,
soil,
turned soil.
PAUSE
God knows where they got
all this shit.
#66:
Newly turned soil
or
a mound with three things
sticking up ...
.
#31:
Right, with three things sticking up out of the
center of
it.
Okay.
In
a grassy.
.
.
Surrounded
by grass.
You know,
like
if you go out
in your
back yard,
you're going to plant
a tree.
Boom
-
you end up with
a tree sticking out of
a pile of
dirt surrounded by
grass.
Okay.
Irregular.
Okay.
And one
case,
in one instance,
I had the feeling even that
I
could see where.
.
when
the ground had been dug up where they
.
.
.
where the dirt had been layed on top of the grass
and then had been filled back
in.
You know,
it was
like
it was
a mound and then there was dirt
-
brownish blot over on the
side.
Okay.
#66
:
Okay
#31:
Okay.
Where
I
came down
.
.
. was here
in this
corner and up here was that thing which
I was
referring to
as my beacon.
#66:
The thing with the round ball?
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#31:
Yeah
I think that’s
.
.
.
That was up there.
It was across the
field from me.
Here,
.
•
•
I had the feeling of three vehicles like sitting
in this corner.
PAUSE
But
.
.
and
I was looking
at
them.
Where did
I
see that?
Okay,
I had the feeling that the
The first place that
I
saw the bump.
The
first thing
I
saw was actually Number
2,
okay.
The turned soil thing was somewhere
in here.
PAUSE
Okay.
Somewhere around those vehicles or those
whatever they
are.
I hopped over here into the
woods or the edge of the woods and when
I
.
.
.
when
I
.
.
blinked over there and
I had the feeling
that
I had two people.
.
in there,
okay.
PAUSE
All right.
And they were like sitting on,
sitting
down.
You know,
they were just sort of like
.
.
sitting on the ground,
you know.
All
right.
You started me off and
I was bopping out this way.
Okay.
And about
out
in here
is where
I came
to
a thing of Sketch Number
1,
okay.
I had the
feeling that
the Number l's were located in the
center.
This was afterwards.
I
got
this feeling
that the Number One’s were located around in the
center and that the Number Two’s were along the
sides.
All
right.
Okay,
that was
later.
So
I bopped out
into the
center and
I
saw,
I think only one of each
as
was going along and for some reason
I magically
bopped over to where the beacon was,
the round
thing was
PAUSE
#66:
Okay,
write down on this page,
this
is what you
perceived to be Area L?
#31:
Yes.
I
think this
is Area
L.
#66
:
Okay
#31:
I’ll write
it
down here.
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#66:
Page Number
3.
#31:
Right.
Okay.
PAUSE
I
didn't
get
any other feeling for ....
I was
.
.
When
I was here
in the trees
I had
the vague feeling that this line here on the
bottom of Sketch
3 was vacant.
But
I
didn’t
get
into
it.
But
I
just had the feeling that
it would be preposterous
for them to put people
there and that
it was preposterous
for them to
put people there.
I
just had this matter of
fact feeling that there was nobody
in there.
Okay
#66:
Now where was
it you saw the crew weapons and
the people?
By your beacon?
#31:
Okay,
that's
up here.
That's the feeling
I had
up here
I'll
just continue using
for that because.
.
Okay
the next part of the transcript then
is
I
moved up here and the feeling
I had was that out
in
front
of or just
to the side of this was another
group of two or three vehicles.
Okay.
That
.
.
there were.
.
okay,
what
am
I
doing?
Pencil
I'm putting in things
and Ink
is fixed things.
Okay.
I
guess,
I
don't know
if there's
any code
to this or not.
But okay.
I had the feeling that
there was a crew served weapon
- small
like an old
30 caliber,
but
its
a tri-pod type thing.
Its not
a bi-pod.
I had the feeling the thing sat up on
legs.
Okay,
I'll draw
a little inset.
PAUSE
Its going to be very rough.
But
I
had.
.
to get
the idea across of the tri-pod thing instead of
like we're used to having, bi-pod type stuff.
I
really had the 'feeling
it was.
it was
...
.
you
know,
an upright legged type of
.
.
•
piece o±
equipment
there.
And two people.
More trees
behind.
Actually the trees are behind that.
I put that
in the wrong place.
Okay,
then
I had
a door
in there and
I had the idea of people
coming and going.
.
.
in there,
okay.
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Now,
.
.
.Oh,
that’s
also where
I
had the
feeling of the wire.
I had the feeling that
there was
a piece
of.
.
.
there was
a strand
of electrical wire that
ran out across the field
into these things.
Something.
Like the vehicles
might be being used or the bumps whatever they
are
that
I
saw,
might be being used for
a shield or
they might be carrying explosives themselves.
They might be positioned and
a wire running to
them.
Or that
they might be
a shield for the
crew in the
.
.
you know,
in the
gun.
Okay
,
something,
because,
well,
just thinking of things
like claymore mines
and everything,
there
s
a
hell of
a back blast on
it.
Hopeful,
you know,
I would presume they were
at
least
smart enough
to know that.
So,
we don’t
.
.
you know,
so
they wouldn’t
get themselves
caught with,
you
know,
pointing
a bazooka the wrong way.
PAUSE
Anyway,
I had this definite feeling of wire.
.
wire
.
.
It was more
dim,
it was more like TV
wire.
It was
flat.
A flat piece of wire.
I'll
just draw a little
-
flat and its black.
Flat,
black wire,
you know,
like television,
antenna lead wire looks like,
its flat?
-
#66:
Urn hm.
#31:
And its not
just some little old thing.
Its not
1 t
its not
this kind of stuff,
its
flatter.
More to
it
as well,
you know,
like
its heavier
stuff.
I
don’t think
it was
like electrical
cable.
I
didn't
get the feeling
it was like super
cable.
Like
for lights or anything like that.
I
had the feeling
it was
.
.
it was more
.
.
it was
less than
a cable,
okay.
Anyway,
it
runs out
of
the wood line here.
Then where did
I
go?
PAUSE
Didn't have anybody up top or anything.
I
didn
t
catch anybody on the
sides.
That’s
about
it
there.
People coming and going
in the bottom.
At
least
one.
I
saw
at
least
one
go
into the
.
.
square thing and under that.
Through
a door that enters on
to the woods.
Its
not
a door
.
.
I
didn’t
feel
that there was
a door
that’s out
on this
field.
I
felt
that the
door
points back into the woods.
To the left of
it
some 25 feet.
.
were the crew serve weapon.
Out
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in front of the crew serve weapon were these
bulges,
these dark humps that
I perceived to
be the vehicles.
Two or three.
I'll draw
in
another one with
a dotted line.
May be two or
three.
And with
a line like
in the darkness.
When the wire runs out
on the ground,
you know,
you can
.
.
you know,
it generally goes that
way,
but you know,
you lose
it after about ten
feet.
You know,
you can't
see
it
any more but
it
looked like
it was going that way.
That's
the kind of
a feeling with this wire.
Okay,
so
from there
I was coming across
like this and as
I was transiting back
in this direction to
go to
Area
K,
.
.
K?
#66:
Um hm.
#31:
L.
.
.
Yeah,
Area K,
.
.
.
I had more
.
.
This
is
when
I
got the real feeling that the Number
.
.
there were more of the Number l's because
I had
a feeling
.
.
that
I had a number,
I passed another
Number
2 20-25
feet out
of the tree
line,
okay.
As
I was going along.
PAUSE
But
that
as
I
got
farther out
into
the center of
this thing the Number
1.
.
.
It became apparent
that the
.
.
the mounds.
.
.
there were no more
turned mounds,
but what they had were Number l’s
just sitting on top
of the
ground,
okay.
PAUSE
And
I will just throw.
.
.
All
I saw was just
like two or three but
I
could just
get
the feel-
ing from the density.
I wasn't seeing any more
dirt.
I was just
seeing these things.
And there's
.
.
.
there's more,
you know,
I'm sure that there
are more.
But,
anyway,
from this
.
.
what
I have
is this pattern.
I'll
draw
in,
in the green line.
That's not
green.
That’s
a green pencil but
it
aint
green
lead.
I
' 11 use
a green line
to show
sort
of the idea for the pattern of using these
things or way they've laid
.
.
sown.
.
seeded these
things,
okay.
PAUSE
Okay.
What now?
I
suppose
I
can include this
also
as well,
I can include the feeling
I had
for wire
in here.
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#66:
When you say wire,
you are talking about
electrical wire
as opposed to concertina wire?
#31:
Yeah.
Right.
This
stuff.-
#66:
Okay.
#31:
Okay.
PAUSE
All
right.
Well
let me give you this.
In the
.
.
okay,
here
in the bottom,
I want
to show
you what they've done there.
I had the
.
.
when
I
got
in on the tree
line on the bottom
of three,
I'm going to four now.
I
got
into
the tree line on the bottom of
three,
I had this
feeling of ...
.
okay,
trees.
Possibly
a
double.
Felt,
yeah
I
felt
a double row of trees.
Even.
But
I
don't know
if that's on there or not,
but
anyway,
I
felt
that
in the double row of trees
like this
.
.
.
that what they had done
is
I had
the feeling of these wires.
And that what they
had done is they had laid the
.
.
what we would
refer to as the claymore type shape mine and that
was
.
.
that was
good.
.
the wire and everything
-
that was good.
No sweat about that.
The wire as
well
as this
image.
I had the image of this thing
- the tree trunk and the sucker slapped right up
against the base of the tree trunk.
Okay.
So that when
it
detinated,
the tree would go but
it would cut the back blast. The tree would absorb
the back blast.
You know,
a claymore's effective
without
a backstop.
But
anyway,
they had back-
stopped them against these tree trunks.
Okay.
PAUSE
Interesting thing though,
they were awful
low.
They were
like almost
at ground
level.
They
seemed like they were only like maybe six inches
above ground
level.
The first place they could
get
a level,
a level place
for the
.
.
where the
for the mine or whatever this
funny thing
is
to
be slapped against
the trunk of
a tree.
PAUSE
And all ...
I had the feeling of just two of
them.
I had just the two wires.
Okay.
That's
all.
Going.
.
.
maybe servicing
in different
directions,
maybe not.
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But the idea or the concept of the
.
.
of the
curved metal.
•
•
the curved metal plates stuck
against the bases of trees
is
.
.
you know,
it
was valid imagery.
I
saw that.
And as well
as that
I
see the two wires.
PAUSE
Okay and this
is
leaves,
you know,
leaves and
everything and the wires are just laying on top
of the ground.
Everybody
can
see them.
Okay,
so
let me put you
in perspective here.
This
is
.
.
.
What
is this one that
I'm working
on?
Area
L.
And that's to Area K?
K.
All right.
PAUSE
Area K.
All
right.
I swam out of Area K.
Ha ha.
I swam out
of the tree
line.
I
felt.
.
I really
felt
like
I was out
in the middle of
.
.
you know,
I was high stepping through
a free-fire zone
is
what the hell
I was doing.
Because
I
felt
like
I
was just
.
.
you know you get
this
itch
in the back
of your neck?
That's just the way
I
felt.
I was
itching all the way across
that one.
PAUSE
Okay.
I'll just
draw you
a top with this
as well.
PAUSE
#66:
Where did you start this area here?
#31:
Well,
I continued the area
- the arrow.
See the
arrow here off of
3?
Right about
in
the center,
I
saw
.
.
.
center of
the,
what
do you want to call
it?
I went right
across,
right about through.
.
in the center,
right through the tree
lines,
because
I was
.
.
.
#66
:
Okay
.
#31
;
.
.
I was walking
.
.
I was out
in the open of L
then
I winked to the tree
line and saw the cord
on the ground or
det
cord,
det cord or whatever
and the things placed against the bases of the
trees.
And that was
it.
And then
I
got
down on
my hands and knees
and
I started to crawl along
into
K.
Okay.
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!5
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PAUSE
#31-
Okay
so
I’m like
I
entered here.
Okay
right
about here.
Where the "X"
is.
I was going in
that
direction.
All
right,
I
had the feeling
.
.
no sooner did
I break the tree line
looking to
the right,
I had the feeling that there was
a
group
of
.
bumps.
Okay.
Maybe
cars,
maybe not.
I Soup of good-sized things off
in the darkness.
Okav
Two maybe three of them again.
I came on
it
and the first
feeling that
I had was that there
were
fewer.
.
.
that
they were sure of this place.
You know,
and that they needed.
.
.
they did not
have so many mines out
.
They
did not
ave so
much
.
.anti-personnel
type mines out,
okay.
So anyway,
I
swam through the grass,
low crawled,
whatever you want,
did the Australian Crawl ..
.
out
to about
here.
Okay,
I had the feeling of
Number
l’s
- okay
- along the route.
I
did no
have any feeling of Number 2's along the route.
Okly.
And
if the theory of "L” had held true
I
should have
.
.
I should have picked up
anti
personnel mines along
the margin.
PAUSE
Okay,
but
I picked up none along the ma?gin of
the area.
All
I picked up were these big h^kers
that were Number
l’s.
And
I
got
a number of
clear,
repetitive
images,
like against
a skyline o
pencil sticking up.
You know,
it was
just
.
.
just
like
day,
like somebody.
.
you re walking
through the woods and you break the skyline
_
the guy behind you
is your RTO and you see this
thing just
stick
.
.
you know,
just moving rig
acrols the light
- the ambient
light
of the sky-
line,
okay.
I was just having these feelings
You know,
of just
four or five flashes of th
stuff sticking up.
All
right.
That was
it.
#66
:
PAUSE
All
right,
from there.
I
just
.
.
For
a peculiar
reason
I
just moved immediately over here.
.
.
into°the tree line again.
Only the left tree line
This
is Area K.
Where you are writing will come out
on the binder.
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#31:
Okay,
let me write
it
lower then.
I'll write
it
inside.
#66 :
Okay
#31:
All right.
PAUSE
Came out over here.
All
right.
Here,
I had the
feeling of some hasty positions.
Dirt scratched
up or scruffed up and
I also had the feeling that
the edge of the field itself lent
itself to
a
hasty position.
That
it burmed off.
Okay,
that
the field burmed off into the tree line
a little
bit.
Not much.
But like maybe
a three
foot drop
okay,
over
a period of maybe 6—8 linear
feet
all right.
Horizontal
feet.
And so this burm
had sort
of been used
in
a certain stretch of
only
20 or 25 feet
to build
a
.
.
to put up
a
little bit more of burm,
I
saw turned dirt
in
a
row and
I had the feeling that there were people
there.
They weren't
in and ready
for action,
they
were sitting around smoking and joking.
But that
there was scraped dirt
in there
-
in under the trees
and that had been piled up.
.
.
in
a long row.
Okay
#66:
All
right.
#31:
I’ll
call that
to
feet.
And I'll say
a
few people.
Hasty
.
.
.
#66:
And what weaponry did you see here?
#31:
I
did not
see
any actual weaponry there,
all right?
#66
:
Okay
#31:
I
didn't
get
a feeling for automatic crew serve
weapons or anything,
really.
I had more rifle
pit
feeling.
I
didn't see any special places
or areas or anything else,
I
felt more like
a rife
pit firing line type of
a situation.
I
didn't.
.
didn't
get
attracted.
But
all this while,
if
you notice I'm working towards one corner.
All the
while,
from the minute
I entered Area K,
I wanted
to
get
to the upper left hand corner there because
I
.
.
.
felt that that was the important area of
the thing.
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#66:
Okay.
#31:
That that’s where
all
the pee was
going to come
out
from,
okay.
And they had all their aces
stacked up
in that
corner.
That's why they
didn’t have to worry about
anti-personnel mines
in this area and everything because they really
had fire power there,
you know.
All the time
I
was moving this way.
All
right.
PAUSE
Now what
do
I
say?
Okay.
There
is something in
that
corner.
I
don't know
if
its on the
.
.
that
or not.
I had
a
.
.
What
I
described was.
.
.
Hmm?
What?
#6.5:
I said an aircraft
carrier.
#31:
Oh,
Ha ha.
#6.5:
(Not
audible).
PAUSE
#31:
I'll just write See Sketch
5,
here.
See Sketch
6.
Because there's no way to do
it justice.
#66:
Okay,
so what you're gonna draw
in
is what
you saw to be up
in the right
.
.
.
#31:
Yeah,
right
in that
area,
okay.
#66
:
Okay
#31:
'Cause there
is something there and
I
don
t know
what the hell.
All right.
I had the feeling
of
a low wall.
When
I
first looked at
it,
it
looked like
a low platform of some kind.
Okay
PAUSE
All
right
#66*
At one time you said you thought
it was
a side
of
a building but then
it
didn't make sense
cause
it wasn't high enough?
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#31:
Urn hm.
Right.
It appeared.
.
.
Right.
Absolutely.
It was
like the
damn thing was
only eight
feet
at the max high.
Maybe six
feet.
Okay.
It was like
just
above my head
level
Okay.
You know,
if like you were
to
.
.
just put yourself up high enough so you could see
everything but you're not really up high.
ou
could just put yourself up high enough so you
can see everything.
All right.
And the woods
are right here
in the foreground.
PAUSE
Okay
Here's the foreground trees and everything.
Okay!
Its
like I'm looking through the tree here.
Anyway,
right
off the corner of this
sucker,
this
tree here
- that's not
a good picture,
screw
it.
Let me draw the tree
first,
then
I'll draw what
the hell
I’m trying to
do.
Okay,
there's
a tree
there,
tree back there like that.
Okay.
PAUSE
I
don't know how
far back the damn thing goes.
And here
is this feeling of
a burm.
Okay ,
I was
telling you there was
a little burm.
I had the
feeling that
the ground tapers off here on this
edge.
Okay,
and it
tapers off all
the way
down.
Okay,
but there's something there.
.
.on thxs
end of
it
and under the tree
its like its covered
over with trees,
because the trees come right
along the side of this thing,
is
a crew serve
weapon.
I had a definite feeling that there were
two
at this position.
One on the ground.
Okay,
and one on
top.
Maybe 25 feet
from each other.
All right.
Now,
I
don't know where this thing
came
from.
Where
it
is or what
it
is.
PAUSE
Erom the top.
In the upper right hand corner
of the top,
I'Ll
do the rest of
it.
Okay.
PAUSE
There
is
a little wall around
it.
Not much.
The
weapon sits
in there.
Overtop of the wall.
All
right.
I'm just drawing
it
in.
I
don't know what
kind of
a weapon
it
is.
Its something.
There
s
two guys up there.
All
right.
Now.
Here,
if
you can get the feeling for overhanging foliage,
okay,
there's overhanging foilage here because
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its right
along the edge of that tree
line.
And down here
as though you were looking
through this tree
is where the other one
is.
Okay.
It
sits
down on
the
ground.
PAUSE
I had the feeling that
this
thing.
.
.
that the
one weapon
is sitting on
is maybe
- what did
I
say in the session,
30 feet
long?
25 or 30 feet
long.
PAUSE
Okay
.
PAUSE
#66:
And that from this position,
they somehow over-
look?
#31:
Yeah.
This
is there.
.
This
Is the thing the
strategic point,
I had the
feeling.
Its the
main fire point.
Okay.
#66:
How about putting
a dotted line
at
an angle across
that page. so we can separate those two
images
one from the other.
PAUSE
#31:
Okay.
This
is
an aerial.
PAUSE
Horizontal
.
.
.
what
do you call that when you
have ....
Terrace.
Its
a small terrace along
here
.
PAUSE
Okay,
small terrace comes along this wall
of the
place.
In other words,
the small terrace would
go right
up the tree
line.
Its
as though the
trees grow up and out of the ground but the terrace
goes across the trees,
you know,
so
it looks like
if you didn’t
.
.
.
Like
I was drifting.
I was
saying Jesus
Christ,
I'm on the side of
a hill.
You know,
this sucker's
20 feet
deep down here
and
I was saying No,
now wait
a minute,
it
isn’t
feet
deep,
its only.
Oh,
it
looks like
its
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only maybe
a four or five foot
drop slowing
tapering off.
But
I
.
.
the
idea of
it was
the tree's growing
at
an angle to the side oi
the hill.
Okay,
you get what
I'm feeling now.
#66:
Sure.
#31
:
Okay
#66:
Sure.
#31
:
Okay
PAUSE
That position
or whatever
it
is.
The top of
a
structure or building or
a wall that they've
moved in behind or something like that
to use,
TURN OVER TAPE
- SIDE
C
#31
-
Okav,
I
.
.
•
this place.
.
had the feeling that
it was
.
.At
least
on the one side
it was m under
overhanging foilage.
I had the feeling that
it
was light
in that
I
could discern
it
and
I
could
make
it out
in the darkness.
PAUSE
That,
like
it could be
.
.
.
no,
as
a matter.
.
.
I'm sure that
its some sort
of
a roof type thing
because the
.
.
where the
guns are positioned
it
feels as though that too
is
a cement
deck.
It
.
It felt
like
it was
a cement
deck.
They are not
sitting
in
dirt.
They're sitting on something
which
is three dimensional.
Its not behind some-
thing which
is two dimensional.
Its
as though
they're sitting on top
of something that’s three
dimensional.
Its
as though they're sitting on
top of something that’s three dimensional.
And
I
also had the feeling that
at times,
if
I
let
.
if
I
just
sort of
drifted,
I
felt
like
maybe
if
I drifted
in time
I
could see another
three or
four or five people up behind this wall
without crew serve weapons,
but like other people
coming
in and leaning,
sleeping against
the wall
or leaning back against
it like this.
Lounging
around.
But when
I was there,
there was nobody
there.
Except the
crew.
I had the crew there.
Approved For Release 2000jia^f^!^|3ffiP96-00788R000800170001-6
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But
if
I
had let myself drift
in
time,
which
I think
I
did,
I had the impression that other
people did come
here.
You know.
All right.
And I'll just
do another thing.
As though
its
a cross section here.
#66
:
#31:
Okay.
PAUSE
That's
a question mark.
I
just
don't know how
long the thing
is.
PAUSE
Proportion,
proportion thing #31,
its not
a
big thing.
PAUSE
Okay
PAUSE
With
a tree there.
You know.
-
-
PAUSE
And the other gun
is right
down there.
Okay.
That's about
all
I
can
do.
PAUSE
I will
- All
right,
I’ll put
it
in.
PAUSE
Okay,
like that.
That's the feeling that
I
had.
That
if anything was going to happen that
four
or
five other dudes would come out and would come
along this wall. and lay down and they'd
do their
thing right
there.
Okay.
That
' s about
it
PAUSE
But
like
I
said,
where the hell that place is
I
don't know.
No
idea.
I mean,
its
in that
quadron
,
I
have no doubt
about
that
.
And
I
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was putting
it right
at the edge of the woods
there.
But other than
that,
that's
it.
#66:
Do you have
any questions
as you're going
through the drawings?
#6.5:
A
lot of questions.
#66:
All right.
#6.5:
Just
take them back
in order,
okay?
#31:
Urn hm.
#6
5*
Okay,
I missed.
.
I missed the first part
of this
(not
audible)
these are sticking into
the ground?
#31:
No.
They're resting on top of the ground.
#6.5:
Okay
.
#31:
They're seeded on
top;
they’re resting on top
of the grass
.
#6.5:
Okay
.
#31
;
They're
in plain view.
You can drive around
them,
you can see them,
you can walk around them.
#66
:
Drawing Number
.
#6.5:
Okay
.
#31:
There are two
shots
at
that.
One
I had the
feeling of
a pencil rod was my
first
impression
and then
I had
a fleeting thing of thing of
like
a Pert-25 with antenna.
You know,
small
curve piece of plastic,
metal or something that
would bend.
Okay.
All
right.
That's that.
#6.5:
And that's what you refer to
as Number One's?
#31:
Number One's throughout the sketch,
yes.
#6.5:
So these
are,
this whole area
is seeded with
Number One's?
#31:
Yes,
I had the feeling that
the Number 2's were
being used around the margins and the periphery
and that
the Number One's were being used in the
center.
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#6.5:
Um hm.
Dm hm.
#31:
And that you would not
find Number 2’s
in the
center.
#6.5:
The Number 2's,
are they over
in here?
#31:
I
don't know.
#6.5:
You don't know.
#31:
I
.
.
I
.
.
you know.
Extrapolated enough by
saying that,
I
think.
It was just
an
impression.
But the 2's.
.
.
I
did not see 2's around the
margins.
I
felt that that was their strategy.
Put 2's around them,
the margins.
#6.5:
The guards are here?
Some other people up here?
#31:
Yes.
#6.5:
You don't know about anybody
(not audible)?
#31:
No.
These dotted lines
are my
track.
#6.5:
I
understand.
#31:
Okay,
so
I
did not
get down
in there.
#6.5:
Then,
if you walk through here,
you come across
what may be mines
against the trees?
#31:
Yes.
That looks this way.
#6.5:
Coming through here.
#31:
Yes,
as though its like this,
okay.
Here are the
trees which are here
at
the bottom of
3. Pointing
into Area
L,
I
felt
that that
is what
they had
-
I
saw these plates resting against the bases of
trees
#6.5:
Um hm
#31:
I
didn't
call them claymore
in the session.
They
reminded me very much of claymores
.
And
I had
this like fleeting image of
.
.of detination
and
trees falling down.
Okay,
that type
of
a feeling.
#6.5:
Okay.
I want
to make sure though that that
area
is someplace
in this general
area.
#31:
Yeah.
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#6.5:
Its not someplace along this
track.
Its some-
place right
here.
#31:
Yeah.
#6.5:
Basically speaking.
#31:
Right.
Now I'm not saying that there's none at
either
end.
They are where
I penetrated the tree
line which
is just
about
in the middle from the
way
I
feel.
About
in the middle point.
#6.5:
Yeah.
#31:
Okay?
#6.5:
Okay.
I
just wanted to make sure.
#31:
Sure.
Now this
is of course,
this
is the reverse
of this.
This looks this way.
#6.5:
Yeah,
I know
(not audible).
Okay,
fine.
And then again,
you've
got some more of these
in this area here.
#31
:
Yeah.
~~
#6.5:
Throughout this area did you sense,
or just on
this track?
#31:
That
I'm not
too sure of.
When
I
got
into Area
K,
I suddenly had this impression
that
I want find
any here.
I
did see the One's.
I
did see the
Number l's.
But
I had the impression that
I won't
find any piles of dirt here.
And
I
couldn't
figure
out why
I wouldn’t
find
any,
but
I
just knew that
I wouldn't
find any
there.
And
I
didn't
see any,
okay.
But
as
I progressed through
it,
I began
to
get this sensation that the reason
I wouldn't
find
any there
is because they figured that they had
it
pretty well covered.
#6.5:
Urn hm
.
#31:
Okay?
#6.5:
Um hm.
#31:
With
fire.
As opposed
as
to having to rely more
heavily on
any personnel mines and anything,
they
figured they had
it more heavily covered with
live
fire.
Okay.
So,
I
did see One's.
I
did
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#6
. 5
:
#31
:
#6
. 5
:
-#31
:
#6 . 5
:
#31
:
#6
. 5
:
#31
:
#6
. 5
:
#31
:
#6
. 5
:
#31
:
#6
. 5
:
#31
:
have
a
.
.
.As soon
as
I penetrated the tree
line or broke the tree lining,
started low
crawling out,
swimming through the grass
into
Area
K,
I
got
a large number of skyline shots
of these pencil things sticking up.
.
out of
the darkness
into the ambient
light,
right.
Urn hm.
But
I
did not
get
any- feeling for mounds of
earth,
freshly turned mounds of earth like
I
had before.
You didn't notice anything else on the ground
then?
As you came through the area?
No
.
No
Okay.
Any wiring
in this woods like there was
on the other side?
Well,
that
is the same woods.
Okay
See.
That
is the same woods
there.
Inbetween
the' trees
is where this wiring runs but they're
not
like here
in
"L" where
I had a feeling that
wire ran out
to vehicles?
I
didn't have anytxng
like that.
I
didn't
see
a wire runing out
xn
.
.
on the ground.
So
that wiring
is still there?
Yeah.
Its
in here.
You didn't sense any people on that side of the
*?
i
•
•
No.
I
did not!
And,
again,
I had this,
sort
of this matter of
fact
feeling of Well,
I won
t
find any there.
Yeah.
You know,
and after
it
all started to
fall together,
it became more and more logical why
I wouldn
t
find anybody there.
You know.
The reason
xts
because
its
a killing zone.
Its right xnbetween
two lines of
fire.
So they are not goxng to put
any
of their own people out
there.
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I had the feeling that
these vehicles apparently
randomly moved may have something to
do with
where they've
got their
folks.
Just
an odd shot,
I had the feeling
.
.
.
you notice here,
I had
vehicles
in this corner and here
I had vehicles
in that
corner.
Okay,
when you put these two
suckers together like this,
well overlap them so
that they
fit,
okay, what
do we,
I have some
feeling that they
are being used as like blockades.
#6.5:
Urn hm.
#31:
As cover
for their own people maybe.
Now up
here,
that
theory doesn't
apply because
I have
this wire running out
to
a bunch of them.
They
might be used to carry explosives.
But
here,
and here,
you notice how these two
fit
in opposite
corners.
And there's
a dude sitting right over
here.
And
I was
just
.
.
I had this weird feeling
that possibly they were dumb enough to try to use
vehicles lined up
to block fire coming from
another,
you know,
from another quadron of the
kill
zone.
Instead of keeping all their dudes
on one side like they should,
that they'd put them
out
in the line of fire and then park cars around
them.
You know,
but see how they fit?
#6. 5
:
Um hm.
PAUSE
This gun here,
going back to this
gun here which
is Sketch
3,
there's
a gun
in there, which way
is
that oriented?
#31:
That's out
into the
.
.
.
that's out
into
this.
#6.5:
Oriented back out that way?
#31:
Yeah.
Now this
is Area L now,
remember?
#6.5:
I
understand,
that's why
I
said back on Page
3.
#31:
Yes.
Yes.
Its oriented into the center,
into
the kill zone
in Area
L.
#6.5:
Okay.
I
don’t want
to be the guy down here.
I
don’t
care
if you've got trees there or not.
#31:
Ha
ha.
Yeah,
that's right.
That's what's really
weird to me
is that what
did fall together means
that we've got
a slip-shod operation going down.
Approved For Release 2000/08/0?®
*
Approved For Release 2000/C
88R0008001 70001 -6
Approved For Release 2OO(M&0* ?&IA-RDP96-00788R0008001 70001 -6
#6.5:
Two people,
haste position.
All right
once you got over
in this thing here,
this
corner where you saw the two
guns,
you never
got back over
in here?
#31:
No,
I did not.
That's about the time
I petered
out.
I started getting a body cramp.
#6.5:
Okay
#31:
And then
it started to break my
focus.
#6.5:
Urn hm.
Okay.
Good.
I understand that
one.
#31
:
You do?
#6.5:
No questions.
#31:
And this one?
#6.5:
Yes.
#31:
Okay.
#6.5:
Okay.
Approved For Release 20
A-RDP96-00788R0008001 70001 -6
Approved For Release
RDP96-00788R0008001 70001 -6
TARGET CUING
INFORMATION
REMOTE VIEWING
(RV)
SESSION CC 23
(S)
The viewer has been exposed to open source news media
information
as well
as classified overhead imagery.
He knew he
would be working against
the hostage situation
in
Iran.
2.
(S)
At the time of the session the viewer was shown overhead
imagery of
the US Embassy compound
in Teheran,
Iran.
The imagery
is
not
included herein due to
its classification.
Approved For Release 2pS®fe
i,CIA-RDP98-0Q788R0008001 70001-6