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#1
#66
Alright.
Now move along with
it to where
it goes.
It goes all over
the building.
Fine.
Move along
to the next area where
it goes next.
#1
I'd go to the pit.
#66
And what happens
in
the pit?
#1
I'm looking
at the pit crossways and I'm seeing
...the
top edge
looks
like
there's water
flowing over
it.
And
it fills up.. and then
the water goes out the bottom
and empties,
but
its continually filled and emptied but
it'
not full now.
And these things go
in this. .go. .go. .they
go
in the pit.. they are put
in the pit but they don't
leave them there.
They just go
in
the pit for
some
reason.
#66
Alright.
Fine.
Is
the pit
in
this
same
room?
#1
Yes.
It's
in
the
far
left corner of
the
room.
#66
Is
there anything
in the pit?
#1
There's a cable thing
in the pit. .a. .electronic cables.
#66
Is
there an object
in the pit filling the
#1
Nothing
in
the pit now.
#66
What belongs
in
the pit?
#1
Water.
I get
a
..I get
a strong
impression of . .work.
.
don't work with .. associated with
the pit.. like they
use
it and they don't use
it.
I don't understand
it.
Like
a.. the pit,
the sides that the objects leave
the
building
.
#66
If
the objects were put into the pit,
or had something
to do with going
to the pit,
how does
the pit help them
leave
the building?
#1
They. .a. .they're. .the environment changes.
I don't
understand.
They do an environment change.
#66
Alright.
PAUSE
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They check
them
in
the pit,
and look at them
in
the pit*
#66
What are
the..*
#1
Get
the
feeling of pressure
in
the pit when
it's
used.
Heavy pressure at
the bottom then
little pressure at
the
top
PAUSE
#66
OK.
I want you
to move your perspective now back up
to
the Grains.. up high on
the crains..
they are moving
on
the gir^rs.
Tell me when you are
there.
#1
I’m there.
#66
Alright.
#1
I may feel better
there,
too.
#66
Alright.
Very good.
Now
I want you
to move
in this
large cement building
that you are
in.
I want you
to
move
to
a different area than
the area that you have
been describing
to me.
I want you
to be attracted
to an area
that
is
interesting.
#1
There’s
a
far
right wall corner
of
the building
there
is
glass wall and there’s
a
a
looks
like
a very pristine
type
lab behind
the glass wall and there’s
a small...
small electronics there
. .pieces
. .a little electronics
there.
White.. large white
tables with
a dishes and
pieces
of electronics.
Has.. I
am impressed with.. what
side view
is... very clean.
Even
the
air
is different
there.. it smells different.
You can.. I can see
the
inside of
the concrete building
from inside
the
lab.
I get
a
feeling
there's glass separating
that view but
I don’t know
if
I am looking
through
a wall or
....
#66
Move back out
into
a larger concrete building.
#1
Ah.. OK
#66
And move
to
the area
that attracts your attention.
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#1
There
' s »a. .shelves by
the catwalk through the
...
I don't know what
to call
it.. it's
a.. I'm loosing
the
target.. wait
a minute.
#66
Just relax and concentrate.
PAUSE
#1
.
It's like
a frame work or
some sort supporting
some
kind of
thing that's being put together.
I
feeling
things and then put together somewhere else and they're
being
fixed or changed or modified or.. there's
something being done
to them.
+30
#66
Describe your position of observation.
#1
Standing
in
a.. center approximate center
of building
and
I am looking down and
the tunnel's on my left
and
the pit's
to my front right and almost centered but
not quite.. to my front down
is
a frame thing holding
some kind of opened.. long opened type
thing.
I am
trying
to get
a clear... but
it's
a very complicated
(not audible).
It's open and there's
..there's tubes
and everything
inside.. I am trying
to.. wires..
I am
trying
to
#66
Describe
the
size.
#1
Large.
Perhaps
feet
in length and.. maybe
5 people
laying down head
to feet
in lengthen.
Almost
3k feet
across.. 4
feet across.
Tubulure but it's not pointed.
Tubulure.
#66
OK.
I want you
to now listen
to
the sound of my voice.
I want you
to concentrate on looking
up at the ceiling.
To look at
the ceiling very carefully and describe
it
to me
.
#1
OK. I
see
a.. perhaps
(counting)
six very thick columular
concrete reinforcements around
a width wide on the
building.
Span of ceiling and there's squared
indentations
in
the concrete
in between and there appears
to be
very,
very bright
illuminate
lights that are suspended
from the ceiling.
Some are very high up and some are
very low.
There's
track type things supported on the
end of long steel rods coming out of
the concrete supports.
And they are welded
to
the
rods.. and there's
loops of wire
everywhere. .appears
to be wire or cable.
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#66
OK.
I'd now like
to try to broaden your perception
by exchanging some
information with me and you now.
Something we haven't done before and we may.. may
help you
to understand what's going out there.
The area that you described
to me appears from your
description
to me
to possible be only a small portion
of
the building. .one area of
the building.
This
building
that you're
in
is very very large and
I am
wondering
if you are looking at one area and perhaps
seeing
the wall and thinking
that's
the end of
the whole
building when actually
if you went through that wall
to the other
side you would find that there
is much
more
to
the entire building.
I'd like you now to relax and concentrate and focus
on the concept of
this very large,
large building,
and see,
through exploration,
if you can't find
the
bigger perspective
in this building.
#1
(not audible)
and
I
look through
the wall.
I
see on
the tunnel side,
the tunnel wall,
I
see nothing but
outside.
.
.
PAUSE
On the other wall standing
in the ramp to my left
I
see glass windows very high up and steel doors to the
left.,
big doors.
But they are going outside.
To my right
I
see.. I
am looking cross sectionally through many, many
floors and offices.
And
to my front I'm seeing more
room.
There’s
a
..get the feeling ... I 'm looking
...
very organized
...I am looking
at
a very hugh manufacturing
facility of
some
sort. .through the front wall.. like an
assemply plant and
it's one open building, very hugh with
gray
(not audible)
and machines.
#66
Move now into that area so that you might explore
it
better
.
#1
There's doors
in this wall that separate
the rooms and
this
room I'm
in now
is
a great rows of machines. .tooling
dies and
I
think
this
is where the noise
is coming
from.
It's very loud
in here..much louder
than the other
room.
I'm getting
an
impression like
I had
in
the other
session
like there's
a mock up of some sort or
a partially
completed form and there's great deal of metal welding
and this sort of
thing.
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#66
OK.
Try
to describe your position of observation now.
#1
Dead center,
overhead.
PAUSE
#1
Dead center overhead.
#66
Alright.
Now,
to your
right
I want you
to move
to
the
extreme end of
this area down
to your
right.
#1
OK.
I'm
in
the corner.
#66
Now look out over
the area now and tell me from this
perspective what you
see.
#1
Uh...uh...I
see
a
..see
a.. to my front right
I
see
a
some big moving
type
thing with great hunk of metal
hanging
from
it,
and
it's like suspenders,
a little
* jlays off
the
floor and there’s
a fanning out
to
the
left of that
is. .what appears to be
a great number
of
rows of machines
.
.
large machines
and towards
the
center of
the room on
the
far
side
there's
a.. like
a
light up type object.
#66
Light up of what.
#1
It looks
like
the back deck and
the sail portion of
a submarine.
But
it’s not.. you
know.. it's not
a complete
ship of any sort.
#66
Move again
from this area,
exploring
through the walls
move again.
PAUSE
#1
OK.
I
go
to the wall
I came through and make
a
left.
I
see all
the high windows and doors
and
it goes
to
the outside.
I
go through
the righthand side
I
see
cross sectionally many offices
and there's another
tunnel type of
thing.. looks
like
some kind of another
ramp that goes
into
the offices
and,
if
I go straight
ahead
I come out
in
a.. some
kind of
a yard.. some kind
of
a
big yard and there's
a.. there's
two big doors
there. .and. .a. .kind of overhead framework.
There's
a
sort of
lumber yard only
it's metal
PAUSE
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#1
I get
a strong
impression
that. .a. .there's
really three or
four
really significant things
that
are occur ing
in this building.
I
think
they are all
related.
I don't get any sense of re...
(turned tape over)
...I get a tremendous
feeling of modification and
assembly.
Modification
in the big room and assembly
in
the little
room.
For
some reason,
I can't call
the other
room little,
it's fairly large and... a...
almost like
a fabrication type
thing .. .getting
a
feel... you
know... just
a strong feeling
of modification
like something
is being done. .that. .that something
already exists.
To either
improve
it or upgrade
it
or
add some other potential
to
it.
#66
OK.
Describe your position of observation,
right now.
#1
Just kind of all over
the building.
#66
Alright.
Focus your attention,
right now,
above
the
building,
outside and above
the building.
#1
OK.
#66
Now
in order
to orient where you are,
let's work
with your
front rear,
left right.
Tell me what's
to
your
front,
describe what's
to your
front.
#1
To my front
is
a
(pause)
looking down on
the building
to my top sort of
to my
front.
If
I was... let's
do
it this way.. if I'm standing on the roof
in
the south
looking
to my front there
is
a sort of
indescr iminate
type building much lower
that's connected
to the one
I
am standing
on.
It ends on water.
And
to my right,
is
a loading dock and
a channel of some sort
(not audible)
with water.
#66
And
to your
rear..
#1
To my rear
is
a angular
framed storage area with pieces
and stuff
laid out,
lumber yard place like only with metal,
and
to my left
is
a continuation of
the building
I am on.
That cross sections and offices.
Fairly large building
extension.
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#66
Move over
to
the edge.
#1
Which one.
#66
To your
front.
Move over
to the edge
to your
front and
look straight down over
the edge and describe what's
down
there.
#1
The roof of another building ,
it looks
like.
It
is
a big
flat area with a*. I get
the
impression
therds two channels
there,
like
a
flat area with
a
two big channels
running
through
it.. big square
flat
area.. looks
like
a
roof.
#66
OK.
Now move
to another
edge.
The one
immediately
to
the
left from where you are now.
#1
OK.
I
see
all
the way
to
the ground and further down
on
the
left
is another extension of
the building
that
comes out.. right angles
to the wall
I'm looking over.
PAUSE
#1
I get the feeling,
when you said look over
the edge
and
I
see
the building
roof,
I get the feeling I'm looking
at water
too and
I don't.. I get a strong
feeling of
that.. I'm seeing
that.. the
roof.
I am not seeing water.
I don't know how
to explain
that.
I
am getting
the
feeling of consolidation,
too.
I.. don't ask me why
I
am saying
that now,
but
I.. I get
a feeling
a consolidation
..that's
a flash
type
feeling.
I
better mention
it.
I.. I.. I.. you
know
I mentally want
to see
big
sub-
marines,
but there are none.
I'm seeing
a much smaller
class of submarine that
I am normally used
to,
for
some
reason.
#66
Where are you seeing
#1
I'm just getting
flashes
of
these.
They're not your
typical large submarine.
I'm getting
flashes
of
the
smaller version,
for
some reason or another.
They
appear
to be
as
fat as
the old ones but they're shorter
and
their
..the
sail
isn't very high.
. it* s.
. .uh
just.. I don't know.. I
just get
the. .I'm getting
the
flashes and.,uh..I
sense that's
important.
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#66
Tell me where
they are.
#1
They're under
a roof somewhere but they're
in water.
They are connected
to the building and they are under
a roof and they are
in water.
#66
Describe your position of observation as you
look
at
these.
#1
Uh..I don't know.
I'm just seeing
them.
#66
Alright.
Fine.
I want you
to keep them
in mind.
I
want you to keep them
in mind.
We have been at this
for quite
a while now but
later
this afternoon
I want
us
to go back
to those very last
images that you've
just had.
Later
this afternoon
I want
to go back to
those
images
that you've
just had and work on them as
our
focus point.
#1
OK.
#66
So
I want you
to
ingrain them right now. .remember
them.
When you're ready sit up and draw what we've had this
morning and then later
this afternoon we'll go back
to
those
images you've
just had.
#1
OK.
(
ATMINISTRATIVE NOTE:
The narrative portion of
this session wherein
the viewer
drew his
impressions was recorded but has not been included
in
this
transcript because
it provided no additional information
and
is of little analytical value.
A cassette tape of
the entire
session
is stored at
the INSCOM GRILL FLAME Project Office.
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#66
Open your
eyes now.
PAUSE
#1
OK.
There's no water.
I
don't see any water,
but
I
see
a.. I
see activity and
I
see. .uh. .hull forms.,
there
is
a.. there
is water
in the area but
it's very
low and
for
some reason
it's
...massive movement of
the water. .there's alot of bubbles
in the water.
Somebody's
working
in
the water
or
something.
There's alot of water
movement.
There's not as much
as before and there's hull
shapes and there
a.. there's
a back.. backs are all open
on them.
...like
a
(not audible) feel like very
far
away.
There, .a. .there's, .they're doing something
in black_tubes_.
#66
Where are
these?
#1
They're
in the open part
of_ the back deck_ of this.,
uh. .structures.
#66
Where are
the structures?
#1
They're on
the ships on the submarines.
#66
Where are
the submarines located physically?
#1
They're sitting
in
the parking bays.
Very square.,
and
the water
' s.
. .water 's
kinda boiling up around
'em,
bubbling
up around
'em
for
some reason.
#66
Now,
back
into the description of what they're doing with
the back decfes of
the submarines.
Tell me about
those.
#1
There's large,
large black tubes sticking
up and there's,
there's people
inside
the__tube£_and they're working.
#66
Alright.
#1
Don't know what they're doing.
'THsqiJsg.in these
tubes.
There's twelve tubes on one.. from wnat
I can see.
#66
How many submarines are there?
#1
I
see
four,
but the right bay
is empty.
The right,
front
right bay
is empty.
They're working on
the second from
the
left.
They're doing something with tubes
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#66
Alright.
Fine.
That's very good.
PAUSE
#66
How
far along are
they
in their work?
#1
It appears....
that they're taking out old tubes
and putting
in new tubes..
Some are.. some are out and
they haven't put
in
the new ones
yet.
Putting
in
a
different kind of
tube .
They're putting
in another
kind
of
tub^ .
One
tube
1 s ^almost out now;
the rest are
and except
for
two,
three,
they're changing
the
top.
#66
Am
I understanding you
to say that you are seeing both
the old style and
the new style at this
time.
#1
No.
I
just noticed
this old one they're
taking
out.
Old tubes.
#66
Tell me why
the new one
is unique.
#1
It's
thic ker j
it's
a bit
loncj^r^
And itTTlasaTTT?^^
about
there's
Something about
the wav
it
' s
, inserted
.. tha t
#66
Do these tubes
that you're spanning
run horizontally or
vertically as relationship
to
(not audible)
#1
Up qnd down earth.
But not,
not very vertical.
They
1 re
cannon somewhat .
Cawit&A towards
the rear ,
it
looks
like
a cannon .
They go
in
at an
angled
I don't know
They
* re empty.
#66
OK.
Now let's
focus your attention on
the description on
these
four
submarines.
An overall description of
the
four
submarines.
I want you
to think back
to this morning
#1
..Uh
these.... uh
. (pause) .... these are
uh
these are good
these are hic[h-class submarines.
These are piggies^
These aren't new. ..they are old ones.
I. .I've. .. .I'm getting
the heavy nuclear
feeling about
them.
I cannot.
.
.
.
#66
I have
a question
I want
to ask before we go on with
the
description
of
the submarine,
if you will bare with me
for
just
a minute.
How did
they come
to get
in
the building....
in
the bays,
in
the parking bays?
How did they come
to
get
in there?
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#1
They,
they drove
in from the
sea.
Through
a wall....
that doesn't make sense.
I get the feeling they go
under
a wall. .through
a wall
through
a door
in
a wall.
#66
OK.
That's
fine.
That's
fine.
I want to make sure that
I understand what you've told me.
That
I don't want to
be suggesting anything
to you so
#1
They, go through
a wall.
#66
I want you
to correct me
if
I have interpreted what
you said incorrectly.
They are
inside
the end of this
large building
in some sort of parking
bay.
#1
No.
They're not
in the big building.
#66
Alright.
Good.
Tell me where they are.
#1
They're under
a different roof by the end of
the
building.
#66
Under
a different roof by the end of
the building.
#1
A flat gray roof.
I
see
a flat gray roof.
PAUSE
#66
Now,
I want
to review something here.
I had you
standing
in front of
the building,
on the water,
OK,
and
I
told you
it was
1 January 1980.
Now, what
happened to your perspective
then?
Tell me what took
place when you opened your
eyes.
#1
I saw this water
in
the bays and
(not audible)
. .ships
bays.
.
.
.
#66
These bays are not
in the building
because you were
looking at
the building before so
I can't understand what you
what the change
is.
#1
I
look,
I
look at
the building on the outside and
I
see..
,.uh..I
see
the building,
or
I
look at the bays and
I
see
a dark square roof,
and,
it's
in
the building,
the building
that
I don't see.. it's
in
the building.
I don't.. I
think
it's on
the end of
the building.
That's
the best
I can do.
#66
Alright.
There seems
to be
a point of confusion there,
but we'll just leave
it that.
When we draw, you will have
to clear
it up,
when we draw a little
later.
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#66:
Will you
turn your
focus
now
to
the
submarines
themselves.
Turn your
focus now
to
1 January
1980
to
those submarines
that
you
see
them working
on.
#01:
There's
something
funny
about
the submarines.
I
don't
see
any kind
6f marking
on
it... no
flag
or
anything.
I just
see
small numbers.
There's
no
flags,
no
colors
on
the
submarines.
Seems
kind
of
unusual.
#66:
And what
jJ-o
you
see... what
kinds
of markings
are
there?
#01:
Just numbers.
#66:
On
the submarines,
where
are
these numbers written?
#01:
They're
on
the
front
top,
right
corner
of
the
sail
looking
from
the
sides.
They're
small... very
small
letters
#66:
What
color
are
they?
#01:
The
color
of
the numbers.. is
white.
White
on black.
#66:
How many numbers.. how many
digits.. how many different
numbers
are
there?
#01
#66
#01
+37
#66
#01
Four
digits
Four
different
numbers.
Are
there
any
letters?
No.
No
letters.
Read me
the numbers.
.
. and
.
. uh
.
. 5
.
. 9
and
a
1.
I
am not
sure
about
the
9s.
That
second
9.
#66:
Do
the
other
submarines have numbers?
# 01
:
Uh..yes.
they
have
the
little submarine
don't
know.
see
a
sure where
I
see
it.
on
another.
I
think
either
an
eight
or
a
numbers
.
Wait
a
smaller
Three
,
the next
zero
on
I
see. .uh. .no numbers
on
minute.. that
doesn't..
submarine,
but
I
am not
seven
is
the
first
two numbers
number
is
four
and
it’s
the
end.
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#01:
I
can’t
see
the
rest
of
the numbers
#66:
Okay.
Describe
these
conning
tower
to me.
#01:
Uh.
. they're
two-levels .. they
' re very
thin.. in width,
but
they're very wide.
Not
as wide
as
ours.
Our
submarines
are much larger,
but
these
are
thin
and
wide
and not very
tall,
but
not
as
tall
as
ours.. fairly
tall.
Sort
of
a. .shaped
like
a backward
"H" with
thick
legs.
#66:
Stand
on
the
conning
tower
and
look
to
the
aft
of
the
submarine.
Describe
the
aft portion
of
the
submarine.
#01:
Can't
see
it.
#66:
Tell me why you
can't
see
it.
#01:
It's
a.. it's
covered with water.
only
see
the
tubes.
#66:
Tell me
about
the
tubes.
sT'-S
Uvtc
#01:
They-' re
,
, a,
all uncovered ... all
the
plating
is
gone
and
they're
canted
and
they're being
removed .. being
removed.
#66:
How many
of
them
are
there?
#01:
I
see
twelve,
twelve
tubes.
Twelve,
ten
or
twelve.
can't
see
the
last
two
very.. very
clear.
There's
a.. two
that
really
look different.
#66:
How
are
they
different?
#01:
They're very
small,
very
small.
They don't
appear
to
..uhhhave
the
same
functions
as
the
others.
They're
just
different,
different
size.
I
don't know why
they're different,
but
they're different.
#66:
Okay.
I
assume... I have
a
question
for
you now.
A peculiar
question.
Are you
still
in
1980?
#01:
Yes.
#66:
All
right.
What
time
of
day
is
it
that you're
looking
at
these?
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the time.
#66:
All right.
Pine.
#01 :
Do you
#66:
Don’t worry about the time.
#01:
Do you want the time there?
#66:
I want to know if it’s a normal time of activity.
Do you see
people doing things?
#01:
Yes.
#66:
All right.
#01:
It’s. .it’s. .it’s early afternoon there.
#66:
All right.
#01:
....but, there’s something. .uh. .you asked, you asked me that....
I don’t know.
Something is wrong with this my time.
I don’t
know.
Their time is afternoon.
#66:
That’s fine.
That’s what I was interested in, is if it was a
working time there,
and you say yes, there are people doing
things there.
Now
turn around now,
and face forward and
describe the forward part of the submarine.
#01:
There’s
a.. there’s a.. raised area.. above the water} it goes
for maybe. .uh.. 75
feet,
and the rest is under the water.
There’s
a. .there’s a hatch. .there’ s a hatch. .two. .two hatches
in the.. the raised portion.
#66:
All right.
Pine.
Now,
I want you to put yourself out back
away from the submarine s a little bit and tell me again how
many submarines do you see in I960, January 1980,
1 January 1980.
#01:
See,
see four.
#66:
All right.
Are these four,
all of them similar?
#01:
Yes,
#66:
All right.
#01:
One is different
a little bit, but.. I think it’s just older
...one is just older.
#66:
Okay.
I want you to relax and concentrate now while
I turn
the tape over.
Just relax and focus on the target now.
I’ll
ask you another question in a minute.
(tape turned over)
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#01 :
#66 :
#01 :
#66 :
#01 :
#66
#01
#66
Now. ..I don’t know if it's...maybe it’s my perspective of the
larger submarine.
Maybe looking down on ’em I get the impression
of a small submarine because a lot of it is hidden in the water,
and the side view I’m seeing the entire thing,
I don’t know
if it’s that or if somewhere in the area of this building or in
this building they’re not doing a like version of this submarine
only a smaller variety.. ...I
just get. ...I
’m getting flashes
of a more compact submarine.
Essentially the same design but
a more compact model
so to speak.
Sort of like a pocket battle-
ship's
you know.
Okay.
A battleship, but nevertheless, but a smaller version.
This
is a good profile submarine.
It’s definitely what it looks like.
Okay.
How do you feel about this. .uh. .this session?
I feel real good.
I was getting a really strange sensation
at the very end,
like my whole body was rolling over on the
couch here, but... I don’t know if that was nerve reaction in my
body
laying
so long in one position or not..... I was
definitely getting strong feeling that
I was. . .ha,
‘ ha. . .rolling
over.
Anything you want to add?
Nope.
That’ll do it then.
ctoyjcx
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Jf L.
+37
#66
Will you
turn your
focus now to
the submarines
sucItt
Turn your
focus now to
1 January 1980
to those submarines ^
you see
them working
on.
#1
There’s something
funny about
the submarines.
I don't see any kind of marking on
it .
, .no^ f lag or
anything.
I
just see small number s. T
lags,
no
-ta-Hre* -than- sumbarines.
Seems
kind of unusual.
COM4
#66
And what,. do you see
what
kinds of markings are 'they?
#1
Just numbers.
#66
On
the
submar ines, where are
these numbers written?
t'U
cd}/
#1
They're
on..-*-#iat top 4r±^e corner
of
the...
-(-not-. aud-ibl^*)
looking from
the sides.
They're small. ... .very small letters.
#66
What color
are
they?
#1
The color
of
the numbers .... is white.
White on black.
#66
How many numbers
..how many digits. .. .how many numbers
are there?
^
#1
Four digits.
#66
Four
numbers.
Are there any letters?
#1
No.
No letters.
#66
Read me the numbers.
#1
2 . .and. .uh. .5
.
. 9 and a
1.
That second
9.
I am not sure about the
9s.
#66
Do
the other submarines have numbers?
#1
Uh..yes,
They have numbers.
I see..uh..no numbers
on
the little submarine. Wait
a minute,. that doesn't
..I don't know.
I
see
a smaller submarine but
I
am not
sure where I^e^,^t.
Three,
seven
is
the
first two
numbers on —^no-t-^cmd rfcnbe-l
think
the next number
is
four and
it's
either
an eight or
a zero on the
end.
O
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#1
#66
#1
Very
#66
#1
#66
#1
#66
#1
#66
#1
#66
#1
#66
#1
#66
I can't see
the
rest of
the numbers
OK.
Describe
these conning
tower
to me.
^
t
Oh. .they're two levels, .they’re
..in width but they're very wide.
No^/cfe»e
Lc|^ a|//
,
/t
<?*<*
ours.
Our
submarines are muclilaD^er
•
• rcmd not vcry
tall but not
as
tall
as
outs'?'"%S?t o£ a.. shaped like
a backward
"H" with
thick
legs.
Stand on
the conning
tower
and
look
to the aft of
the
submarine.
Describe
the aft portion of
the
submarine.
Can't see
it.
Tell me why you can't
see
it.
It's.. a.. it’s covered with water.
I
only see
the
tubes.
Tell me about
the
tubes.
They' re.. a.. it's
like theVje.all uncovered. .all. .the
iney
fhpy'rp beinq
removed.,
plating
is gone
and.
. ea^ni-ng-v .ana. .cney
^
being
removed.
How many of
them are
there?
I
see twelve,
twelve
tubes.
Twelve,
ten or
twelve.
I can't see
the J^fce#t -fcutee nr-irght.
There
s
a.. two that
really look different.
s*? two
How are
they different?
^ eflUAA*ML
•
They're very small,
very small.
They go
..Tthe
pi-er.
JTfeey have
the same functions
as
the others.
They
re
^
just different, different size.
I don't know why they
r
different,
but they're different.
OK."'
I have
a question
for
you now.
A peculiar question.
Are you still
in
1980?
Yes.
Al-light.
What
time of day
is
it that you're
looking
at
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#1
#66
#1
#66
#1
#66
#1
#66
#1
0788R0001 001 20001 -8
Uh. .uh. .looking. .looking
at. ia . .having
trouble wi th
fii
oJy
the
time.
Alright.
Fin
^
$
Do youyTckT you want the
time there?
<
I
I want to know
if
it's
a normal time of activity.
Do
you see people doing
things?
Yes.
. Si A,
Alright.
/
re.V.but therf's something
i-'sT something' wrong with
my time^jTh^^iine
is afternoon.
That's
fine.
That's what
I was
interested
in,
is
if ^
was
a working
time
there,
and you^ay_^<
,
people doing
things
there.
Now^turn around now and
face
forward and describe
the forward part of
the submarine.
There's
a.. there's
a .. raised -area
above
the water,
There, s
fppt
.
an(q
the rest
is under
the
It goes -feem maybe, .uh. .75
feet
.
h
fcwo
water
.
There's
a. .there's
a hatch, „a iettie hatch. .two..
two hatches
in the . .>rf the raised portion.
ififi
Al*Aqht
Fine.
Now
I want you
to put yourself out back
* 6
awajl^n, the submarines
a little bit ana tell me agarn
how many submarines do you see^lSSO, January 1980,
1 January
1980.
#1
See /four.
#66
Alright.
Are these
four,
all of
them similar?
#1
Yes.
#66
Alright.
#1
One
is different
a little bit,
but
I
think
it's
just older
one
is just older.
#66
^ 1 want you
to relax and concentrate now while
I
turn
the tape over.
Just relax and focus on the target now*
t n
ask vou another question
in
a minute.
(tape turned over)
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OCOftEF
,
,
#1
,
.
.
.
.bpdx&if moving around.
#66
*
#66
What
is your position of observation?
^ f4e flint
Uh.J'm on
the^ conning
tower
.^.submarine.......
(not
audrtrie
jK
*
• on my left side*
Alright.
Now,
stand down on
the foredeck of
the
submarine, where
the hatch
is*
/ w fund*.
#1
Which hatch?
The
little one
or
the big one/
r°A o jtcrf*
-
#66
The big one /Now,
from the submarine,
look
up.
What
is above you?
#1
#66
#1
#66
#1
Rows of lights.
Two kinds of lights.
I
feel....
I
feel like
a.... one
light. typ^.
Feel heat from
one
of' the lights.
And further
up.....
tA ^
ji
,
.
,
Girders.
Construction girters.
A
Move up to the girders.
Now looking back down,
describe
the area from that perspective.
,n*vO
Uh,
*
.
. .looking
dc
PAUSE
S'
n on three
big
bays
there’s
a.
#66
How high are you?
#1
Maybe
100
feet... no not
that high*. ...55
or
feet.
#66
Are you on
the
inside or outside?
#1
I’m inside.
J
#66
Alright.
Pine.
Tell me about
the three
big
bays.
#1
There's
four submarines
in
^ the
two right bays
and
there's none
in
the
left bay.
#66
Alright.
What's
to
the front of
the submarines?
#1
Platform.
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#66
What's
to the
rear
of
the submarines?
#1
A wall.
A wall and some doors.
#66
How do
I get
the submarines out of here?
#1
You open
the wall.
+50
#66
Alight.
Fine.
This concludes
the amount
of questions
that
I have about
this target.
This time
I'd
like
to
give you
the opportunity
‘to say anything
that you would
like
to say about
this
target.
PAUSE
#1
I'm
.I'm having
a
lot of ^d^if ^Lculty with
the end of
the building.
I
.
. a .
. look /rbr
tlfte submarines on
the end
of
the building f ^and
I
see
the building^and no submarines^
and
I
. .look/ at
the submar ines. . .and, I
look up and
I
see
.different building ftCl
and
I
know that
that wall
is
the. .uh. .wall of
the building.
/
#66
Alright.
Fine.
I
think you've done very well.
I want
you not
to be too concerned now about your confusion.
This
is why we moved you ahead
in
time because we believe
this area
to be
in
a state of flux,
right now,
under
construction and changing.
That's why we moved you
ahead
in time
to when
it might
be completed or when we
might have
situation.
So
I don't want you
to be
concerned about your confusion.
#1
I^JwaS^asked^ about
a square^I
drew on my last drawing^
£**
#66
Outside
the building area?
#1
Yes.
^
j)
#66
Alright^
If you would
like
to explore
that at
this
time you may do that.
#1
There
is
a
it's
some
kind
of
a nav-aid.
The
square's
a
a electronics and
a
little building
in
it.
Some
kind of
a nav-aid.
It.
. .a. .theyv direct shipping
or
something
there.
Some
kind of
a navigational aid
fo
that port.
That's what
the building
is'.
Appears
to be
old,
though,
for
some reason
or
another^
^Maybe
it's
a
little out of
state- of - the- art ... .a~drrttXe old fashioned,
‘H..
^
.<*.
*
tv
-
>> r’y--/; S
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#1
but,
that's what
it
is.
And
it
is
a little building,
I
think.
I
thought
it was
a box,
but it's
a little
building.
B
#66
Alright .
Are
you looking
at
that. ..at that little
building now or
are you
looking at
it
in
1 January
1980?
#1
#1
#1
#66
I'm looking
at
it now.
JU
#66
Alright.
That's what
it
is.
PAUSE
That's all
I got.
v
Alright.
Move your arms and move your
legs and^sit
up and draw.
i iM
r
r £
rf
#66
There's
a platform that comes out
frjom this wall, goe
all the way across like
this.
You have
to imagine
this wall being here.
Then there's another one over
here that comes out.
And there's
a.. two more catwalks^
going like
this.
All these catwalks are very long
and
this distance
in here
is very large.
And these
go down
to
the water.
That's
a wall over
here.
Down here on
the end there's another wall of
some sort
Over here there's
a... that's
tunnel
type entrances and
this
is
the one
I
was
in.
I
get
the
feeling r
goes
in
the building
for
some
reason.
There's another
onoi
And
there's
a
track
like things come out of here.
Go
in different directions
here.
and there's water down
There are
three bays,
right,
submarines ,
right.
And
there are
four
dc X
#1
Oh,
Yeah.
There's
a
page
looking down from the
top there's a.... that's
the wall of
the building.
And there's
two walls
to
the bay area and there's
a back wall.
That's
the sea over
here.
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Md there’s
a... two side walls, which are darker.
Down
the side walls are catwalks.
Platform at
the end,
two
more catwalks,
like
this.
There’s
the.... like tunnel
ways,
or
ramp ways,
I guess.
Through
the wail,
and
the submarines are part like
this.
There
s nothing
in
this one.
They're all pointed this way.
Those
first
in
the bay,
they’re working on this one
..and there's something different about this
*****
—
|t_
1 - ^
V-v /^T.7
4" O
OYf)
one.
It's
t>
—
an older
one.
I don't know how
to explain
tJilc: •
j.
u.
^
that,
just that
it's an older
sub.
and there's
a
lot less water
in these bays.
In
^uary of
1980 which
is
this
then there
rs
in
the bays here
#66
#1
f/C&
-rK
You never
saw
the bays
in the present
time.// It was only
after i sent you
to 1980
that you saw the bays.
.
.
that's probably ^/analysis on
my^
%a rt .
But I'll tell you that
in 1980 ^January
there’s less water there
for
some reason.
,
*
r
and
a. ..sails on
the submarines.
First off,
'"the back deck comes out of the water
like
this.
This
is like
a
let’s call thi ^ «^er
here.
There's
like
a
rise, thick rise m
the sail,
there
a sail and
it's shorter
than our
submarines.
The
front deck goes out
like
this and drops way ii&S
the water.
And the submarine
is actually much
larger.
And,
here,
it's
like rectangle °n
the side of the
numbers-c*?
c->
On
the sail
there's nothing
at/ all
I could see
protruding^tbove
the
sail,
on
the sub
but this
area back here
is where all
the plating
wer
:
^here's
a very large hatch up front.
There's
a very
\mall hatch here.
There's no other markings on
t
e
submarine.
Very strange.
And
I don
t see any
apparent ornament of any sort.
I can't think of anything els
#66
OK.
Can you explainj^about your
feeling of nuclear.
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#66
#1
jtl
I was
trying
to decide whether or not they were
nuclear powered or
nuclear
armed.
And
for
some
reason
I kept
•thinking
^f^ear-
’
nut
:i?ite
v%^feed when
'toMetail nuclear
anytSiaZ-Wt
X just know$fere's something nuclear
about them.
I
think
it's probably powered.
Some
reason
I couldn't say armed.
Couldn't say ar^e
for
some reason,
©MfctanT.
I don't understand why
but
I
just couldn’t do that.
As
they're wtsitting
in those bays,
they're
just nuclear powered.
Let's put
it that way.
#66
OK.
#1
you did make
a comment that the
tubes were empty.
Vpq
These tubes were^ you
know,
some
find of tube and
rt«5king up out of^fese very complex
tjpe thing down {.ere
They're aide-by -side, couple
of
'em are sticking
further
than a couple °
£
,
others.
Some hadn't been touched at all,
*
wg^ extracting
'em this way.
And
the
Edification
were putting
in,
they were doing
some kind °^n^na
in
down
in here,
and they were,
they were ^st Putting
it seemed like they were opening
’em larger
,
you
^
maTfng
'em larger,
and there was kind'^design
difference on the tube
for
some reason.
/
What about these tubes that were different?mr
Oh l
That,
in the row of
ten or
tye^
e
™ay
that there's
10 that look like,^f2 that don
t.
Bac
here there^two small tubes,
lad they ' re
real, small
and the^.a.-the^traight up and down and thevr
very
short, .and I'm not
these are different.^!
(J
don't know what those are.
They 're, different.
ou
know they're entirely different from the big one*
f
I gX
a- strong feeling
that functionally they're
different as well.
They’re
there
for something.....
I don't know what
it
is. .,. .these cannolmg
like
this.
you know,
I get a feeling almost the cant in these
tubes
miaht be
the way they have
to be now but not the way they
had to be before,
you
know.
Like
that might be part of
modification.
V
^4
/£JLt>
tjjtf jtky. 'A-*—
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00788R0001 001 20001 -8
#66
f
.
p"
I
1 rn not looking
at any^part of
the submarine and
they could very well
be even, ....you
know.....
some other severe modifications
to
it somewhere.
You
know,
like a.... double
the width or
something.
I don't
know.
But
I
almost get
a sensation like
this
section' of
the submarine
in
its entirety
is
being modified
or changed. .. .that
I put
in brackets
here.
It's
like
that whole
thing..... I
super-
structure and all has been changed.
But, XT might be
wrong.
That might be analytic.
I
just get that
feeling.
• Tio+uy
I have
a question
I wanted
to ask you before
eveh
this morning
the question came up. .. .something
about short submarines and long submarines and j^hen
this afternoon ag^in tJ>er^^em^
< ro be concern^about
_
i
...
I_
_
1 _
_
I
T-I J TT
short
think
submarines and
about* that
for
Maybe
long submarines,
a minute?
Will you kind of
#1 ^A don't know /^Maybe
it's my perspective of
the larger
submarine.
Maybe looking down
/|'l
6'm^ghrt get the
impression
of
a small submarine because
a
lot of
it
is hidden
in
the water,
and^side view I'm seeing
the entire
thing.'
I don't know
if
it's
in
area °f
this building
like version of
this submarine only
a smallervar iety .
I
just get
I'm getting
flashes of
a more compact submarine.
Essentially
the same design but a more compact model
so
feoL;speak.
Sort of
like
a pocket battleship,
you
know.
#66
#1
#66
#1
OK.
A battleship,
but nevertheless
a smaller version.
This
is
a good profile
gjjspl&l,
It's definitely what
it looks
like.
w
OK.
How do you feel about
this^ session?
I
feel real good
I was getting
a reaVstrange
sensation
c&otrC' the
very, end,
like my whole body was
rolling over on
the couch here , *but ,
.
. .1 don't know
if that was nerve
reaction
body .. .laying
so
long
in one position or
not
I was definitely
getting
strong
feeling
that
I was^rolling
Approved For Release 20
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