Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : salad Seasaaieeeeaaacanaan Lf And they’re like thick wire - real thick wire — only they’re not wire. It’s, it’s some kind of like special alloy or special metal or special Something. They’re fixed but they’re bunched. And they’re all generally pointing in the Same direction and, uh, this stuff comes down and washes around or over and through this. And when it hits the tips of these things, it, uh, it does the same thing that a laser does. It excites, it excites these, these metal rods. But they don’t, uh, it’s not like glass tubes in a laser - these are not like gas-filled tubes or have the big thing that blows stuff in and sucks things out, you know, the gas exchange where you’re exciting a whole bunch of; uh, electrons or Something like that... M: o 7 Yeah, Vv: f - But these are like electrons coming down this, this tube and they they’re washing across this little batch of wire, — -_ %* M: ‘ It’s a particle beam in other words of some sort. fs V: (i... 3 Yeah. But that’s not correct — it’s more I wouldn’t call ita particle beam - it’s, it’s, these rods are then emitting a really short wave-type of output. A really short wave thing. A we’re talking a wave form that, that it is Super, super short. Wage — M: 4 Um-hum. ) Uh, it’s a ray, OK, some kind of a ray. wave. Shorter wave than & microwave. A microwave is pretty short Short wave. This is shorter. I don’t even know what microwave is. Microwave is (couldn’t get word here). I can’t remember — this is even shorter, this is real short wave stuff. We’re talking about, I don’t know in angstroms, we’re talking something less than 10 angstroms. Which is real short. That would be less than, less than 10 angstroms probably. Anyway, it bunches together and what happens is you get this, this coherency coming out the end, this coherent wave front, if you will, and it actually, it actually, uh, I get the feeling like this is a inside of a tube. - i M: | A OK. But it’s a real short s é This whole thing is compressed inside of a tube. and the tube is a vacuum or aS near @ vacuum as you can get. And it extends outward to, uh, to a target place. 2 ‘| Do you have any feeling for scale on that? oe tr arte Large. Room size, or bigger? B-6 4 : - 0150001 -4 Approved For Releas 2900/08/10 : ne ie 00787R00030 )
Vv: M: V: Approved For Release 2oporo8/t0 : CIA-ROP96-00787R000300150001-4 a \ No, but the tube is probably something on the order of, uh, uh, I’11 Say 3 feet in diameter. It’s really interesting because I, I see the tube there but then sometimes I don’t see the tube. I see it operating in an aeroplace Space and then I sometimes see it operating in air which is real interesting. What happens when it operates in air is the air molecules actually burn up. It super heats the air molecules, they actually self-destruct or excite themselves out of the way or something. \ Un-hum. And, and I get the feeling that I, you can actually see it with your eyes. This ray, when this thing comes out in air molecules. It’s like it doesn’t shoot out of the end in a race along to the target it’s like the whole thing past the ray Slowly comes in the beam. It’s like it appears, you know, this entire length of it here appears like its super heating the air molecules that it’s going through to the point that they actually white-out in some way. ( 4) Um-hum. C | And down on the other end is the target and, uh, I’m trying to determine what that target thing is. I’m gonna do a better picture on Page two. r ) OK. { ._ I see this in a vacuum sometimes, and I see it also going tnrough specialized gases like, like they’re testing to see its penetration power through different gaseous mixtures ah different mixtures of oxygen or atmosphere or something. And, uh, I also get, I get the feeling like the target’s hard — it, it’s like of a hard target. And, and, by that I mean like metal - it’s a metallic target, uh, varying degrees of thickness, shielding, and, uh, parts of the target being tested are covered with solid state electronics, chip electronics, uh, it’s like pointing it at your home computers to see if you could burn your home computer up and then putting your home computer at a varying or differing modalities of shielding to see what effect it has on its capacity to operate. Un, I, I get the feeling like this is really, this thing is really hazardous to human life. — és, ) Un. 2. JI mean I wouldn’t stand in front of this sucker. This is, this is really I mean, it will really damage a hard target, but it ain’t nothing like it will do to the human body, I mean, it will just cook, it will just vaporize the human body so to speak. Soft targets wouldn’t be instant inferno in front of it. It actually boils the air molecules in front of it. Uh, but that’s not exactly Tight, it’s like they all boil Simultaneously, all the way down the line. B-7 Approved For Release(2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4
Approved For Release oobree/10 : ci-RbP96-00787R000300180001-4 M: } Um-hum. Vv: S s M: Vv: ¢ \ i ‘ ‘ It’s like these, it’s such, this 10 or less Angstroms of wave front are so — the wave and frequency is so small that, uh, the, uh, air molecules get in the way simply because they are getting sighted by it. So it turns the air molecules into a frothing mass. And it has to do with, uh, the real main function we’re talking about here is these, these metallic - I keep wanting to say metallic - I guess maybe because they’ve got so much oxide in them. Theyre like, they’re like meant to be destroyed by this thing. When electrons hit these, these thick wires, this mass of material, what happens is this mass of material, uh, lases out or puts out this coherent wave front, and, it only does it for just so long and then it, it burns up - it’s no good anymore — or it’s, uh, it, it does something to it, um, its like a cluster of wires. This mass of oxide material all held together but they’re, but they’re drawn out and in straighter fibers like. I think that’s to give direction to the wave, the coherent wave fronts or something - it’s a huge mass of electrons that’s forced across the, this - I wanta say electrons, anyway I don’t what the hell is. And I go back up this line and I, I can’t help but go back to that, you know, that circular sphere which is... fl . \ 5) Ye ah . ...in the other building. But, I’m getting a real interesting picture of this other sphere, uh, 3 I know. This is, this is another building...somehow.... ’ Yeah. This is in, we’re now in C building... | Oh, that’s in C building. _: This is in C building here. This, if I remember right...somewhere between here and here is the wall of C building, right, I’m not sure if that’s not in B building and the tube extends through that connector piece in the C building and.C building is predominantly the target building - where the target’s contained or held. / Uh-huh. i | But you know all the test equipment is set up on both sides of the target building. This is, I’m getting a real interesting perception of this now. It’s one I didn’t have earlier. ¢ ~ 30K. Let’s do something that’s changed, or, or... “ . Essentially what it amounts to is I’m seeing a circle, you know, and inside the circle - I wish I could draw this, ha, uh, inside the circle the circle’s split like, uh, into all these different B-8 Approved For Release seboioao : CIAFRBP96-00787R000300150001 -4
Vv: cS Approved For Release 2oodio8/t0 : C1A-RUP96-00787R000300150001-4 mt Yes, \ 1? So this is kind of a production phase and its routed through Rere and here... ‘)? Generates this ray, this, uh, yeah, yeah. 1 I see, OK. io a And, uh, uh, this, it takes these megalithic lasers to light this. - 4 Um—-hum. / For this to cause this. ' Um—hum. wt: _ And the output of this sucker right here is quite destructive in terms of its wave front, uh, but this thing rapidly loses, uh, strength over distance because of the air molecules and but for test purposes, ‘uh, that’s it, I just said a key thing. This is a testing apparatus:for the concept perhaps. L! um-hum. 3 In other words, somehow, uh, this is emulating the process that would be done in a, in a more large way. Ina huge way, uh, this is like a little example of something, uh, I’m trying, I’m trying to figure out what the — as best I can figure on a hard target what they’re trying to do is they’re to effect, actually physically destroy this hard target. And what we’re talking in hardened that it’s heavily shielded, the solid state electronics of this target are heavily shielded, protected, uh, what’s interesting there’s, god, this is really neat because this unfolding - there’s a twofold, there’s a twofold thing about - I wanta write something else down before I forget it - this is uh, test vehicle for concept. In the hard target there‘s a twofold fall out from this, one is, you find out can a hard target be destroyed, or at least made dysfunctional, but b, you find out can you build a hard target that can’t be dysfunctional, made dysfunctional. So it’s like you get a twofold benefit out of this — testing this thing. ‘or +] Sounds like it could be a competitive process — one team working on trying to make it invincible and one working on attempting to penetrate it, EO _{it’s like exactly right, you’ve got, you’ve got, well, you’ve got a whole number of different things here. You’ve got this machine which we’1ll call A machine, uh, producing larger amounts of power, Then you’ve got a B problem which is stripping off the power for use B-10 Approved For Release\2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4
M: V: EF «/ Timing is, uh, is critical. And in the time that they’re Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : c1a?pP96-00787R000300150001-4 ) in a new way of lasing we’ll call it. Then you’ve got this machine which is a whole new form of luminous laser. I’m not sure laser’s right. There’s a different word. Phaser, phaser. That’s what they use on Star Trek. \ Ha! Then it was something more advanced than a laser. J Yeah, it’s like next generation. It’s a phaser beam. And it’s very possible that it might be in a microwave region because microwave keeps popping in my mind, but I don’t think so. \ um-hum. Uh, I think we don’t need all of this to do the kinds of outputs in the microwave region that we could do to create this effect. Uh, I think microwave is, uh, the problem with microwave is there is no way to generate a coherent microwave front but then I might be wrong about that. But I think this is a different kind of wave. This is really a coherent wave. And the key here in part C of the problem is these little metallic rods or wires or whatever use this bundle of stuff is - that’s the key to it. And, uh, I look at this and I, this concept down here and I get an impression of, I just want to put a big thing like this that says "Focus here." Which is real interesting like this is deliberately controlled nuclear explosion and you focus it all right here. That’s a wave front I keep : wanting to draw esoterically ~ I don’t know how to draw it sO mechanically. [ "| OK, 1 i bi ' i | I say to myself it’s impossible to do that but then... \ Well, when you say esoterically what do you mean by that? { \ Meaning that, uh, I think, I think the concept’s really down, Y think in terms of, of what’s going on here in the event. The concept’s really ironed out. I think where there’s a problem is - the timing. Let me write that down. ~ 4 } | ~) Yeah. having a real problem with the timing because element A, well subsequent to that - there is some other thing back here called lasers which we’ll call 1-A. The 1-A ignites A. A is actually destroying C in some way - eating it up. This - outside this bottle or this control mechanism this mirrored sphere, uh, A couldn’t happen. It couldn’t happen and if it did it would be out of control. And in the event when it does happen inside this control sphere, it’s, uh, B-11 Approved For Release hooinisy10 : CIAARDP96-00787R000300150001 -4
V: M: Vv: Approved For Release oooosit0 : cla-RDH96-00787R000300150001-4 J Oh, no, rce_ = think there’s an awful lot of dial watching involved in it im zazms of the time and sequences and everything and trying to perfec= the, the actual outcome, but in terms of, uh, watching the busim=ss end of this sucker, uh, I’ll bet ya it boils the, uh, it boils =e atmosphere around it. ))Homm )) I’ll bet rom actually see this, this, phaser type wave come out of there —- it-s just, or just appear between between that and the target - it actually looks like it’s boiling and the atmosphere around it, which would cmsare a white haze or Something, uh, 1711 bet ya that’s visible. <=-27} bet ya there isn’t very much of a hard target to stand against it. + wouldn’t explode itself. It’s molecules would just become so exczteg by it that it would literally implode or explode. - a _{ Hmmm, I’d Se curious as to whether something like that would be detected outside of this environment? “) Uh; I think the problem, the problem is, and it has something to do with the vacuum, using a vacuum tube... ” 1) Um, hum. t]...or testing it in molecular air, uh, the problem I think is the wave format is so Short that the distance is critical. ..yeah. 7 J I mean it’s OK to test it on the surface of the earth like in an atmosphere but in deep Space, for instance, it would be really effective because there would be no air molecules to block it. But on ested it the wave components, the components of the wave are too short so they’re Sucked up by the air molecules. a ’Oh, I see. ( ‘] So, when you get such a cushioning effect from the surrounding atmosphere that if you were to back off say 30 miles from this it would be totally undetected, undetectable, it just wouldn’t be putting anything out, uh, it wouldn’t be giving anything out that you could detect. So, in terms of detecting at a distance, say if you were to, run a satellite over this area to try and detect what was going on it would be damn near impossible to do that. ‘se yum, hmm. i dye «ef You can certainly detect it in space, though. If you had your detector in space and this waS operating in space that would be the last thing saw...that would be the last thing you would detect before it ate you, uh, it’s really interesting. I also think one of the B-13 Approved For Release 4000/08/10 : C1A-RDP96-00787R000300150001-4
Approved For Release roodiasrt0 : ClA-RDEg6-00787R000300150001-4 other problems possibly with this, I get a feeling like, uh, the wave front on this is also highly effected by gravitational pull, things like that. Things that you don’t normally have to worry about with light, photon-type activity. You know on & standard a laser outside the fact that the laser gets really weak over distance. Well, this will get weak over distance unless it’s in a vacuum. If you’re ina i vacuum like in space or near vacuum, like space, then the distance on this is really great in terms of power. I was just seeing these hard : targets being literally Shaking inside out, it’s like the molecules [. inside the hard targets were just vibrating instantly into, into, uh, such a hypervolic action that don’t even Stay glued together. They just vaporized — the hard target, uh, of course, the harder the target | the less it’s damaged, but there’s still an awful lot of damage, uh, plus there’s another thing. The, the real, it’s all, the whole thing’s got experimental problems, but the real problems, the real crux, the state-of-the-art stuff is right here in C which is these, these components right here. They get bathed by the output of the, the control exposure chamber, but these little rods or wires or bundle of whatever they are, Sticks, metallic oxide, sticks or whatever, | a these anodes... ail oll | i —™. | Um, hmm. = Vv: (, ji don’t know if anodes is the proper word. I’m reminded of, his is really crazy - the association, but on the bottom of a boat, to keep the metal on your boat from being eaten away through corrosion ai and what not you put these little nodes so that, you know, the salt water, they’re soft metals, the salt water attacks those first, you see, and eats those away, and so you use the rest of the metal on your | , boat - I’m not even explaining that right, but that’s what I get a feeling about these, is that these actually attract the electron Stream or whatever it is and, and, the collision of the electrons or at whatever with the molecular components of these oxide tubes or whatever... M: us, hmm. aa V: j ..-produces this really intense ten fold increase or ten thousand fold increase wave front output. They get real excited and wal they put these waves out. So it operates very much like a laser, but it ain’t a laser. It’s, it’s more like a Phaser, you know. I don’t know how to explain that. It’s a different kind of wave than coherent light waves. = _—, a Vv: ; “JIt’s in a different frequency spectrum altogether. j : M: d jpytte sounds like, it sounds almost like instead of, uh, transmitting light, you’re transmitting energy. —_ ‘on B-14 Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RRFE6-00787R000300150001-4
‘ « V: < ‘M: V: Vv: Approved For Release ee : deere MOTE TROOOSON TON a f Yeah, right, exactly, absolutely, that’s exactly what we’re “talking about here is an energy laser instead of a light laser. But it takes, it takes, this huge complex system of light wave lasers to ignite this controlled explosion in this sphere of mirrors and then that is absolutely forced to fold down upon itself to produce even larger amounts of energy and then energy which is really seeking to expand outwards produces these orbits of electron matter or whatever that are stripped of them to bathe these rods to produce some other form of laser. (M speaks but can’t understand.) Yeah, but this, this part can’t get, I don’t if it’s because it’s so short and looks real complex... ( ~) um, hmm. J ---or if it’s because it’s like a segmented tube. } It’s funny because that’s where you started. { Yeah, and it’s a real complex segmented tube of some kind. _) Um, OK. | But it necks down there, it becomes very focused. Jon, I see. i But I think it’s strictly a vehicle to get these, these electrons out of here over to here. Some electron wave guide for lack of a better word. ~ < { Hmmm. Is it, but, it’s a transportation medium, you would say, it’s not something that, that modifies the.., nO Z T No, it, doesn’t, I don’t think it modifies it in any way. As ‘a matter of fact, there may be a huge electromagnetic field wrapped around it... ° . ; LO “[ oh, I see. ‘ 7) ...in order to get the electrons to travel down it, or stay within it. You know, it compacts them maybe and transports them. As a matter of fact, it, the reason why it’s segmented may be because it coils around this sphere. Actually, it comes out of this sphere ina coil and then dumps straight into that one. But I feel like they’re separate places. They may, ah, shoot. Uh, I know when this stuff’s fired there’s nobody in the room. At least this kid wouldn’t be around. No, I wouldn’t mind being on the opposite end observing, you know, not on the end of it but to the side observing the impact area or the target area, that would be really interesting because I think it’s very coherent, very directed. I don’t think there’s anybody down there at all. I think it’s probably all watched with Tv’s, uh, I B-15 Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : C1A-IDP96-00787R000300150001 -4 a eerie ern ee ee ee onan
Approved For Release seen : CIA-RDP94,00787R000300150001-4 _ — ( oe ee eel Geel Ge ‘ can’t imagine like if element C loses it’s coherent wave front it’s no longer putting waves out in front of it and just starts putting it out sporadically in all different directions, it would kill everything within so many feet. I suspect that this element is packed in, uh, built inside a block house concrete-type of place, and that’s why I think this wave guide is used to get the electrons over there. I keep wanting to say electrons but I don’t think that’s what they are - highly excited matter, let’s put it that way. —_ So now if you were to step back from this perspective a little ‘bit, how is this all taking place or does it have any relationship to what we did this morning in any way or is this a process that’s going on in totally different part of the compound or a totally different place, or where, where are we now if we expand out from this a little bit? 4 “7 OK, A would be in the B building. C is in C building. ) OK, so then, {. : Ox, or, maybe C is in a connector part and the target’s in C building. - “| I see, ( Test equipment’s on both sides of the hard target area, uh, I get the feeling that C building is basically a block house type, uh, type of place. But, but, then I also have to say and I go back to multiple teams which I should put down here, uh, multiple teams, uh, there’s just a whole lot going on here, you know like A it’s a whole different team of folks, and there goal has nothing to do with C, uh, A folks over here, their primary goal as a team is to fire up this controlled explosive device and maintain it put out ever larger increasing amounts of energy from it. Uh, then there’s a whole different team that’s playing with this, this phaser thing down here. And within the phaser team there’s a whole different team that’s concerned with trying to find a more stable, stable bundle of wires. A more stabilized bundle. A more focused output device. Then there’s 2 teams an A and B team at the hard target site. One is trying to destroy the hard target no matter how it’s shielded and the other’s trying to shield it no matter how hard they try to destroy it. And, so there’s 2 sub-teams there. Uh, simply by changing, I keep saying these are the key, this bundle, this bundle of wires, this bundle of rods or whatever, by simply changing those, you change the entire output wave front, in other words whatever is in inserted here is what determines the wave, uh, how many angstroms it is, uh, how much energy output there is, its coherency, all these different things, uh, and I keep, uh, one of the other things I keep finding very interesting is the fact that uh, in terms of controlled explosion, the enormous B-16 Approved For Release 2000 08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001-4
TYTTrrre Approved For Release poooidg/t0 : c1A-RDH96-00787R000300150001-4 amount of power this puts out in relationship to how it excites this is nothing compared to what the real machine will do. I feel like this is all just a mock up. A test mock up. This is what we can do within bounds of, uh, within bounds of control, or within bounds of experimentation. If you were to build the real machine, uh, and put it in orbit or something it would be far less complicated on one hand and on the other hand it would be even more complicated, uh, but its power would be equivalent to this - it would be 10 times 10 more powerful output. You could literally put a wall up — a big glass wall that nothing could fly through it. an umbrella type of front. You can imagine a huge bundle of key rods or whatever each one putting out, each one putting out a very tiny beam that 2,000 miles away would be much wider and broader... M: [ | I see. V: oe ad And, uh, very intense all side by side you know its putting up this front, like an arc so many miles high and so many miles wide, and, uh, M: ) A-shield type thing. Vv: | Yeah, but it wouldn’t last long. M: } Oh, I see. V: jit wouldn’t be, you’d wait until the last second type thing, and it would present this wall and it would last maybe seconds. But anything in a depth of say 300 miles would be just vaporized, it would be like a curtain that would appear and disappear, uh, really, really Star Trek stuff, man, this is really exciting Star Trek stuff. I wish I could figure 2 things out in more detail. And maybe I well, maybe that will be something... M: ] Yeah, maybe that will come tonight. ~ V: J It will come tonight, yeah. M: { Yeah. Vv: (But, uh, that’s basically it, I guess. M: U7 OK. V: .{ So, I’m gonna try to render something more - maybe I’11 leave this alone. I’m afraid to mess with this. Nox. Vv: ( (vi just darken it in. B-17 Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787RO00300180001-4
Te a tne ierpernatttetemm re emininmemnnmnnemeemnnnee Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4 Vv: | Uh, one’s observing something going on there and the other’s observing something going on somewhere else that’s related. s ( ‘7 So it’s like maybe two sides that are involved. ( % Yeah, it’s kind of like there’s two sides involved. The, uh, except they both mean the Same thing, uh, I can’t tell if one’s real time or not. s ~ -) Are they both participating in, in a common event, or... ( It’s sort of a common event. Uh-huh. S$ S$ $ & C fru think about it for a couple of minutes. You can, rather - than waste the tape — shut that off for a second. M: , ) |All right. f Vv: (/ Give me about a minute and I’1l tell you when to start up. ~ M: | OK, Vi ( | I’m getting two things. First off I’m getting a presentation ‘Of a film showing a device being tested somewhere else and then that’s followed up with demonstration of this, this capacity, this, uh, uh, phaser-type of radiation machine showing it’s effect on a specific kind of target. So it’s like a two-part thing. Only one part is done = somewhere else. And, and, I keep getting an impression of a place even further in the desert, OK, and whats interesting about it is is I surrounded with, uh, hundreds of like individual, uh, storage bunkers, im like everywhere. I think, I think what we’re talking about here is, uh, uh, let’s see, I’m having trouble defining between demonstration } of this device and, and a real, well they’re both real,-but one was = done beforehand, and one is being done now. And the one that was done beforehand was actually a device. It was really a, a, and I keep [ Saying device, I’m talking what I’m talking about is a bomb. It was _ actually used in a demonstration type of effect and, uh, it was like two ended, it was double ended. It had one end was, was an actual [ : bomb that produced, that produces or produced an output that initiated i a second bomb. It produced an output that initiated this ray, if you will, but it was all done, uh, like in an underground test. And then : they had films of this and they showed the outputs of this and they’re i going into a live demonstration using this laser to initiate very much ot - the same kind of outputs only on a much smaller scale, so, uh, we’re . essentially talking about two kinds of devices doing the same thing, | one on a large order of magnitude, one on a small order of magnitude. —_ M: — ~J Um-hum, B-20 Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4
Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001-4 V: (. __| and, uk. I’m getting a picture of, I’m getting a mental image of this device. thing that they use, uh, for like the canned ‘demonstration, film demonstration. And it’s, uh, it’s uh, that’s not right. Do we Have an eraser? Let’s do it this way, uh, um, something’s noz right about that. It’s more like, uh, it’s like an underground thing that’s, uh, demonstrated there’s like a-uh, well call this an iritiation device. And what happens is this thing goes off and its fastened to a little short piece of tubing that is very much like a wave guide and what it does is it focuses, um, this is, uh, focus for, focus for, it’s the first thing I’m trying, what’s the first thing that happens from like a thermonuclear device like a thermonuclear Cevice, it’s not even a thermonuclear it’s a nuclear device. The first thing that happens is there’s a huge output of neutrons and it goes into a second device and the second device is a, uh, thermo target. And then this ignites, OK. And that becomes like a thermonuclear type of device and that goes off and then fastened to the end of this is this cluster of these, those rods, whatever you want to call them. Little lasing type things. on ~ ( ), Um-hum, ; i ; ik and they produce a massive output as they’re enveloped. Casing réds produce like that. This output. And this goes down a, uh, this whole thing takes place in a chamber under ground and this goes down a tunnel and at the other end of this tunnel you’re down let’s say it’s a, this is ground level. And you get down here in this chamber where they do this and it shcoots down this tunnel a few thousand feet. Meanwhile, this thing’s expanding over here —- it’s actually exploding, but it happens so fast, uh, this explodes but before this destroys this, it ignites it, with this massive focus of neutrons. When this ignites it lases these which produces the output of, uh, gamma rays or whatever they are. As that’s being enveloped these rays are racing down this tunnel which has blocks in it. And right behind these rays going down the tunnel, these blocks are closing. And down here at the end is a chamber of targets so also there’s sensing equipment down here so there’s a secondary tunnel down here. And, uh, sensing equipment we’ll say sensing. This is the actual, uh, this is the actual detonation place. So this is all destroyed here, but it sends radiation down this tunnel and behind this radiation which is all very, I mean, everything’s all instantaneous almost speed of light and this always happens, these shafts close down behind it to minimize damage to the target area. So the only thing arrives down at the target area are the rays from this thing which then shadow the target, and, and, this is, this is, uh, essentially we’1ll call this Demo One. That’s, uh, done at a remote site, of the site, Air? '{Base, uh, lots of large bunkers. Some are out in the desert. That’s Demo One. C ‘| Then you get Demo Two. Demo One shows this is what it looks like on a full scale. Demo Two shows a more controlled thing going on B-21 Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4
_) Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4 at the lab. And essentially what you got is, uh, this thing all | hooked up to all these input, all these different things, lasers, are hooked into this sphere as I, as I drew before. M: C { Um-hum. V: (S/NF) And it in turn produces, uh, produces that giant electron output to, uh, to sort of cluster this thing which puts out this ray. This, this I don’t even want to use this picture cause it’s not very good. The problem I’m having with this is I’m, there’s a big element that’s missing and it’s where it’s missing is connecting this machine to this machine. There’s something in here that I’m not getting and I can‘t... M: C » Is it the same one you were having trouble with this afternoon... Vv: ~) Yeah, um—hum, M: | f.. same, Same connection there? V: | i What I keep wanting to do, is I keep wanting to put the whole rine into an apparatus that captures electrons and accelerates them. M: ( ml Um-hun. Vv: C )| But, then I don’t know how to do, I don’t know I’m gonna do that, it’s, it’s almost as if, it’s almost as if there’s a, like a, this thing wrapped around like this, uh, this being. I’m really having a problem with this - I keep wanting to wrap something around this sphere right here. M: C 1) Um—-hun. Vv: C - And, and, the essential step is that it strips, as electrons are forced outwards in this sphere, they are collected in this trough that accelerates them in a circle and what it esséntially does it forces them around, uh, in a, in a magnetic, electromagnetic field. And the electromagnetic field, uh, because it, it kicks them into a tighter concentric circle, accelerates them. So when they exit the end, these electrons are not only, uh, at a very high energy anyway because of the amount of that, they, they’re really moving, uh, and then coming out of the end of this thing they strike these tubes in some way. It really fires these tubes up. They’re like pumped across these tubes, uh, I’m having a lot of trouble drawing how that’s done. M: (7 Bi Um-hum, um-hun. ; V: fg and these, these tubes are bundled, but they’re bundled in ind of a crazy way. They’re bundled so that one assists the other B-22 f Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4
C Approved For Release 2odor08/10 : cia-rbP96-00787R000300150001-4 3 _ and so that it’s a cascading effect. So that there’s a, there’s, instead of a, a sporadic output there’s a very coherent cascaded built up, uh, driven kind of output. coming from these tubes and, uh, it doesn’t last long, it lasts for a few seconds. And I was thinking about the, uh, the wave front and I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that, uh, that these things are absolutely in a very. short wave area. They are either gamma rays or they’re X-rays, like an X-ray laser or something like that. Really potent stuff, (_ ~\ um-hum. Uh, operating in the, uh, in a real short wave front area. And, and when it strikes the target, the target’s are, uh, missile components,that’s what I think the targets are, they’re components of missiles, not so much warheads, but as they are the guidance systems for missiles. M: ( | Hum, a — You know, like the solid state electrons, the chip electrons, and’ the guidance system for the missiles. Plus, I get another real interesting thing - side thing — here’s, uh, here’s a side effort going on with this that has to do with, uh, it takes a large computer to operate this, so what we’re looking at also is we’re looking at a condensed version of a very fast computer that operates this. Remember we talked about sequencing and that timing was everything... ( ] Um-hum. - / .--and, that one of the problems is that the thing that does the timing, corrects the timing and everything is, uh, a real number cruncher... M: C ’ Um-hunm. ( ?.,.monster of a computer... ° . { {Um-hun. . _)...and the problem is that this thing is not going to be effective unless it’s in space. It’s, um, to fit the thing in space, this thing won’t be in space floating around up here, because (a.) that violates agreements, (b.) it’s a sitting duck circling the earth in a fixed orbit or just sitting in a fixed orbit. So what we’re essentially looking at is we’re looking at a device that’s launchable. In other words, when, when we determine that the Soviets have launched say a group of ICBM’s, then we would fire this sucker into space it would seek out the ICBM wall and eliminate it. So we’re looking, we’re looking at a, a device that’s really smart, that can handle big, B-23 Approved For Release 2dgo/08/10 : cia-R+bp96-00787R000300150001-4
ToT w Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001-4 (4 big time timing sequential problems in a very short period. So we’re looking at a whole new animal in terms of how smart it is. And I was thinking of that, and it’s really interesting -— I’m getting the impression of a bottle, a bright blue bottle that is literally a computer operated by light. Uh, I don’t know how to explain that but I think that’s the extra laser that I’m seeing. It’s actually a computer that’s light operated. In other words, it operates on photons instead of hard circuits, electromagnetic circuits, so it’s literally impervious to the EMP or EPI or whatever they call it...electromagnetic interference from atomic blasts. And, that’s a very, uh, a really powerful computer but it’s crunched down into a really tiny size... a“ | M: | Um-hum. V: | ...80 this, and, and because of its size this thing actually “rows blue white when it operates. M: CC ° tum, Vv: 7 =p 5¥ou know, it creates so much heat itself, the computer does, His is real interesting, we’re right on, this device is so far out on the edge of stability that, uh, quite literally, I mean it’s self-destructive. In order for it to work in its final state, it destroys itself. It generates such intense power... M: { ‘ Um-hum. Vv: J ... that it lasts for a microseconds, but the wall it puts up sstieys everything in its way, in its path, uh, we’re talking a really neat concept, and all the dynamics that are going into it are really complex and really state-of-the-art stuff. r M: ') Um-hum. \ V: ( _] Uh, I, I essentially see what I -was seeing this afternoon only see it operating and it’s, it’s, uh, this volatile beam coming out of this thing. I just wish I could —- the key to this whole thing really, the key to the whole thing and the metal alloy or oxide alloy rods that are bundled - that’s the key, and how they’re bathed with the output from this, uh, laser initiated controlled explosion and, and the elements from that — the, uh, neutrons that are stripped from this are done in a very, are stripped in and a very special way. It’s like, uh, it’s something different from electromagnetics and I can’t, damn, I can’t put it together. M: co “)it’s not in our vocabulary. V: (i -{ No, that’s probably the problem is that I have nothing to escribe it with and I can see it, you know, I can, I can taste, I B~24 Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001-4
a aa aaa = Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4 ~ ) om | -~ , can, I know it’s, uh, uh, if I was gonna draw it, uh, I wanta do this really fancy scribble and, uh, and, and, what’s interesting about this - is and again we’re going back to the timing sequence and all that kind of stuff, what we’re really talking about is we’re talking about an expected occurrence of the neutrons coming off this thing. In other - words, the way they orbit and everything it’s all predictable. It’s all been predicted. So they strip off the maximum number of neutrons and accelerate them down to these lasing metallic alloy rods or whatever they are and there’s, it’s not a donut wrapped around this a thing but it’s a special shape. It’s like, uh, it’s designed to capture where the neutrons will be which is really interesting. It’s, = it’s like there’s, you would look at it and say "that’s really weird the way they did that." But it’s taken months of, you know, using the computer to map how that will be done without interfering with the ss itself. oa proce ) e M: foo | Um-hum. wa Vv: ( ) You know, it’s like being in the right place at the right time. And, I don’t know how to do that. It’s like a M: C 7 Sounds like it’s hard to capture in a drawing, it’s hard to = capture in language. Vv: { ; Yeah, and what I’m trying to do is I’m trying to capture the - Tight kind of words to describe it. It’s not like a double helix, it’s not like a donut, uh, it’s like a, uh, it’s a specially configured - it’s not electromagnetic either, it’s something ~ it like traps the higher orbits of a neutron that come off or electrons that - ; create neutrons or whatever. I don’t even know what the hell I’m talking about here. You know, I think physicists would have troubles sitting down and conversing on this. - ~~ M: | ~) Um-huh. ~ — , Vv: ? , It’s beyond, it’s beyond the come, it’s, uh, they could - Yheorize it but, when it comes to actually doing it, it takes literally sitting down with a super computer for months to come up with come conclusions, or arrive at some conclusions, so Demo One is a - film of what happens in the desert. Demo Two is actually seeing this thing done in a lab scenario on a smaller scale using this massive laser device to initiate a controlled nuclear detonation which produces huge outputs of neutrons which are stripped using this double -. helix donut device which is then pumped or pulsed across a very special alloy type of rod, and it’s real short, I mean it’s not a -~ major thing. It’s just a little bunch of rods that are set up ina 7" certain way and neutrons are pumped across it. And its acts like a directional anode and it puts out huge massive like 1012 outputs of X-rays in a coherent wave front. And these things come boiling out at B-25 Approved For Release 2004/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001-4 aoe
z . : a i 7 A ae | a | h Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4 C Vv: \ the end and literally heat the air molecules uh, that travel they travel through. Burn them up — just, they burn up the air molecules, create a vacuum around the and hit these targets which are parts of pieces of guidance systems to rockets and molecularly it shakes them to pieces — vaporizes, vaporizes them. And when I say the, the output of the output of, the demo device in the lab is like 1 1/10th and not even that, like 1/50th the power of the one that’s, that’s done with the detonation in the desert, ~~ Y * Hum, = The one in the desert is just unreal, it’s literally powered with a thermonuclear device, I mean it’s output is outrageous. On a, on a scale of 1 to 10 the lab demo is a 1 and the one in the desert’s is 10 to the minus 10, I mean it’s just got an outrageous output - it would melt anything. And, and in space the near vacuum of space it would put a small wall up of X-ray or gamma ray output that you couldn’t fly a gnat through you know without cooking it. It would shake everything molecularly apart and, and it wouldn’t last that long, ‘you know, seconds. And what’s neat about it is the only side effect is the thermonuclear device going off in the atmosphere, you know, above the atmosphere in space, so you would have a probably a real severe EPI problem or EMP problem or whatever you call it that would last for a few minutes actually a little more than a few minutes, but the result is that everything manmade above the atmosphere would cease to function. It would literally be blown to pieces. Real overkill for eliminating just a few hundred ICBMs or whatever. Probably 15 of these would launch one right after the other for a 20-minute period would eliminate any ICBM’s the Russians ever launch. (— ) Hum. ) That’s essentially it. That’s, that’s all I’m getting for this event stuff. Now I’m getting some other real interesting things on the side I’m getting specially designed computer stuff to operate these things, to aim, them, to handle whether or not they should go off, or how they go off, uh, super high speed very powerful miniaturized computers that run very hot. I see them literally glowing bottles of coolant. I also see, uh, a second remote site in the desert somewhere that’s definitely an air base where the devices are put together and tested. I see, uh, uh, hum, got kind of a flash and input of guys running around with guns which is real interesting, uh, some kind of heavy security force, this is really over protected stuff, uh, I see variations of this, theoretic variations of this that operate not only in the gamma X-ray area but are — you see this is capable of generating a whole lot of different kinds of wave fronts. And you can generate microwave, you can generate gamma wave, you can generate X-ray, the key is the rods. It really has to do with the B~26 Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4
Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4 e ») lasing components and I think the problem what they’ve really ironed out is how to, how to time the thermonuclear device to capture its output in terms of neutrons and focusing. They’ve learned to do that and now they learned about the lasing rods and how to develop a coherent wave fronts. And its combining the two and putting that into a vehicle that’s launchable - it’s really interesting. Making it small enough but violent enough to do what it’s gotta do, so we’re looking at some really advanced state~of-the-art stuff. And I think one of the real surprises that they’ve got in just the past couple of years is the ability to theoretically test it by using both the high energy laser at this lab. They were unable to generate enough output power with this laser before it really use it to any extent in testing this. And now they’ve been able to do that, really, really produce the kind of output that’s necessary and control the scenario to at least generate some minor tests they’re major tests but I mean an a way that’s... 7 M: CC _Um—hum. Sure. Vv: C observable in a lab situation, uh, which, again, I think the breakthrough on that which is it’s really interesting has to do with something as simple as polishing the inside of that sphere. ~ M: C Hum. V: C 4 So that they’re not only initiating the, the miniature sun to urn, but it’s actually reflected back in on itself. It actually collapses back in on it, so it’s almost like building a miniature black hole, in a bottle which is really neat. And, and again that in comes the theory to this enormous amount of resource in terms of computer work and theoretics and stuff, and, and that’s it. And the most fun out of the whole thing is that they really do initiate this thing using this high energy laser. You get to see the air molecules boil. Maybe via, I wouldn’t watch it except via maybe a remote camera, uh, I get a feeling if this thing ever went haywire, you know, I mean there’d be X-rays everywhere, so it’s probably a very, uh, heavily built shielded room that they use as a target. rc M: Um-hum. V: ( , That’s it, that’s it, that’s go for broke stuff. M: f OK. V: } ox. I hope so. M: } Thank you, V: _ jit seems to be awfully fantastic stuff. B-27 Approved For Release 2000/08/10 : CIA-RDP96-00787R000300150001 -4 i es i ee i ie ee lees Se len le le ee ee a