Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000400400001-4 #10.5: ...see if I find any safes. Bam! I saw a safe with the top file drawer open; there was no doubt about it. The top drawer of the safe-there were two of ‘em side-by-side. One of 'em was open. Then I started saying, well, you know, gee, that's sort of neat and groovy, I mean I found the- they wanted the answer to that question, and I found it. Here it came..it just smacked me right between the eyes with no thought, left brain cogutative action or anything. And I was sitting there grooving on these safes...sort of like I got distracted, like who was the guy that was reaching up into the top drawer to, to get this stuff out. He's a little old mousy guy, sort of a professor type, slightly, slight build and 50 years old, and wearing some . gort of a..some sort of a tweed, brown tweed suit. And, I sort of said, well, you know, okay, this-hell, this could be the guy that usually works here, you know, but, then I got...no, wait a minute..she's taking bunches out. He's not just taking out individual file foldersamAiworking on them. You know, I was sort of concerned that I might have moved in time to a, a so called normal time, and not some sort of a time of interest for this exercise. But, the unusual activity was that he was taking groups of folders out, and I perceive that he was walking somewhere, .uh,.around behind him, and out a door into a long hallway. Okay... Now, this door, if you're looking at sketch one you would have to turn around, with your back to this safe, and then this door would be to the left on the other side of the room. I have the door to the left of the partition which is shown in the target photograph. Now, I know that _in the target photograph it's some big sort of bookcase that's over there, but, I don't believe that the bookcase is there. I believe that there is a door there, and the door is a little farther down, maybe. But, somewhere on that side of the room to the left of the partition is an egress access exit, egress and exit point. They're walking out into the hallway out that door, down to the left about 25 feet to the right, maybe only 10 feet into a room that has a reproductive capability...photostatic capability, maybe. Inanimate objects do not have reproductive capabilities, okay...ess. Now, I do not believe that that is the door which I like... some reason I had two ways to get in and out of this place; one on. either side of a long nar-longish, narrow room, okay. I believe that there is a door sort of there. I'll draw an arrow in the lower right, and I believe that there is a door down there. It's up to you guys to figure out if it's left-right, reversal, and if I knew whether I was coming or going or not. All right, that's two safes, that's sketch one. Picture Approved For Release 000 osu plakapmubalpasr000400400001
#1025: #66: #10052 #66: #10.5: #66: #10.53 #66 #10.53 #66: #1L0.5: oe #66 #0.52 #66 #1005: Approved For Release 200008 pr 000400400001-4 on the left, and there are two desks, only one of which I've shown because only one is really..eyou know, germane I guess is the word for it. In sketch one. I'd like to ask about these two safes now if I could. Okay. You said that, um- They are not burned open, they are opened not surreptitiously. They are opened as though the guys walked in in the classic manner, looked at the guys calendar pad that works in there, and he found the combination circled. Some stupid thing like that. He knew the combination. They were not pried open, they weren't jimmied open, they weren't burnt open, they weren't blown open. They were unlocked in a normal manner. They were unlocked in a normal manner— Yese But from the scario you've just related to me it was not someone who normally shouldn't Axe the combination. I didn't say that. I don't really, I didn't really say thate I'm not trying to say what- I do not know whether the people there were supposed to be there or were not supposed to be there. That's a qualitative judgement I can't— Okay. I did have an overlyingpallor, okay, thispallor of some sort of surreptitiousness. Now, whether that's overlay from the tasking or not I.don't know. But I did feel surreptitiousness about it. But I also felt that the combination was known somehow, and was dialed into the safe and the drawers were opened. Okay. Now, how that surreptitiousness applies to knowledge of the combination, I don't know. I really couldn't say. It could be that- it could be that these— this guy- these guys really worked there and know the combination, Okay? Okay. And they're there after duty hours and they're not supposed to be there. Or it could be that they don't work there and didn't know the combination, but somehow got it, and Approved For Release oocTRas hr Caner ys-00788R000400400001-4
Approved For Release 2000/08/06 Eryn paseuy7#2R000400400001-4 #1025: #66: #1025: #66: #410.5:3 #66: weren't uupposed to have the combination, but did know it. And the method by which they would've gotton it is not by some neat and technical grooviness, like a camera in- serted in the ceiling over the safe with time synch photo~ graphy. It was some stupid thing like some stupid blunder that they just happened to get it. Very easily. If, if, if that's the alternative, i.e., they come walkin' in, gee it sure would be nice to get into those safes, uh, now's the time, let's look around maybe we can find the combin- ation and goddamnit they didn't find the combinations, and they tried them out and they worked. That's the type of a thing I'm tryin' to say. All right. Now, um...just to clarify for...the person who might be reading this transcript. You have had some exposure to intelligence training and would recognize various methods of opening a safe by force... Yeah. Uh, you know, the reason I say that they werentt opened by force is I said, you know, that's weird, the safe's open, I'm looking for damage. I was looking for some visual thing that might come through, tn RV that would tell me if it'd been torched or cut. And there's no visible damage to the front. Okay? Or on the sides that are exposed. I didn't get in the crack, you know, I was sort of just looking. And it was automatically exculsionary that any forced entry had occurved it was just- it wasn’t a case of that, just automatic, spontan- eous. They didn't get in that way. And I like tried to like, well what do you want to call it, creative imagery, maybe. I tried to say, oh well, maybe they pounded it open with a sledgefammer and a wedge. And I saw, and I created this guy~ bang! bang! on the, on the dial. No. That doesn't fit. It just went right away. Okay. Maybe they torched it open and I imagined a big-— they big cylinders and hydrogen and oxygen cyliiders of a big torch apparatus and everything. No, that just disapeared. - It wasn't substantive. There was no, no material. truth to _ those type of things. So I said, well obviously I'm fighting the problem. They obviously got in without using a forced entry metheod. They got in somehow, uh, in a quasi-routine manner. Okay. ee And there was absolutely no damage is the point I want to make. Then- and I was saying here's another spontaneous thing abouth the safes. As I was looking at the one of the right and the first minute I found the safe the top drawer was open. You know, I didn't look at safes and then manufacture somebody come over and open the drawer. It was that standing free that way and there was nobody around it. Okay. Approved For Release oom Rot coresRo00400400001-4
Approved For Release RE ee f#fl0.5: #66: #10.5: #66 #1025: 366: #10.5: #66 #1005: The first time I saw it. And I looked at the left hand safe, which I think is a little bit shorter, and I said so I just spontaneously zoomed in on this black dial with the butterfly in it and everything, and the throw lever was obviously in a upward position and I just spontaneously knew that that one was open too. But that they just weren't screwing around with it right now and they had all the drawers closed... And I couldn't find a third safe. You know, there was not three in a row, there was no little field safe or some— thing hidden or stuck in the floor or anything like that. so I'm sort of, all throughtout the session I was conjuga- ting about, wellthey said there was three safes in here, I don't know where the hell the third safe is, EF can't : ee it, it's not obvious. And I don't want to make it there. And I happened to notice that this girl wearing white was on the other side of the room to the left of this door that I say is over there, screwing around in the top, and just, that was spontaneous too. She's standing at a single big box, cabinet box, screwing around in a file drawer, a top file drawer again I said, well maybe that's what they're talkin' about. So I went over there and I said but this isn't a safe, it doesn't look like the other two. That's when I decided that it really was like a file Cabinet with a paracentric lock, that was being called a safe. Okay, do you- But it really wasn't a safe as I know it. Are you of the opinion then that I told you there was three safes in there? ‘Yess. Okay» Yeah, I am. Wetll have to go back and listen to the tape. Okay. I don't know if you said that or not now that you asked the question. But there's, you know, where was this other thing over there and I said well, that's obviously what's being called a safe in this case, is this. And it's got the little paracentric lock on it, it's all U.S. type equipment. Okay... All right. I'll go to sketch two. I don't know if you want to pause or not 'cause this is gonna be a whole end view of the! roome We've got a whole half thing here anywatscceuee 4 Approved For Release 000 bee TE EEG ety s8R000400400001-4
Approved For Release 2000/0817 SISA EHEATB788R000400400001-4 #66: #10.53 FA05: #66 #410.5: #10.5: We've answered, you know, pretty much the essential ques- tions. Do you feel there's something else that you want to express here in the Well, I think that there's a rat rig in there. Okay. Okay. I believe that the rat rig terminal is behind the partition that's visible in the targeting photograph. Okay. For validation purposes it might be worthwhile. Okay - Uh, I would dike to do a overview of the floor where I believe this activity to occur. I believe it's in a multi- floored "L" shaped building that's essentially white, or it comes through white because I got outside and looked at it. That might be useful for validation purposes. Uh, the, I call it a rat rig, I think it was a rat rig, and as a matter of fact, we talk about audio input, I heard the rat rig bell go bing! the minute I sawit. I looked, and I said, gee that looks like a, some sort of a thing on a desk, and then all of a sudden I, it was just automatic it was a teletype keyboard and I heard, you know, the little warning bell go bing! when it— you know, when it operates it works that way you know. Umee. Could you draw, rather than in a three dimensional perspec- tive, can you give me a two dimensional perspective of the situation. Yeah, that's a good ideae.. That's a good idea. Okay... And that'll go right hand and glove with the floor plans anyway » PAUSE It's not a file cabinet, it's a wall...wall unit, double- with double.wall file cabinet, I'll call it, but it's not a file cabinet, it's a, like what we've got. Barracks cabinet. Barracks locker. I'11 call it a wall locker. This is a four drawer...cabinet with...when I say para~ centric mode I mean something, some cheap crap type lack like that, I don't necessarily mean a paracentric. I thought it was a paracentric, but it's...but I, I mean it's some cheap old minimum security type of four drawer file cabinet. Woman in white...going through tOpececseces OF8Y, Duplicating machine is down the hall 25 feetse....Okay, and sort of like right here.....two safes. Mosler type top. This is the man. The man is accessing the safe from there, and is moving out smartly across and down the hall. And, uh, I don't know what's down here. These are the desks....picture hangs on the wall there. Map Approved For Release pocoratha Cit test o07s8rov0s00400001.4
Approved For Release 2000/08/07" #10.5: #66: #10253 710.53 Approved For Release 2000/ 8R000400400001 -4 hangs there. Some sort of a platform there. This is where the clock is. And this is the desk..... And this exit area, how did it go? It went out straight, made a 90 degree curve to my right, that's as I was going back- wards. And I had the feeling that when you came in this other door this room was the last place you could go in, and in fact you had to walk through the room to get out into the hall, okay? What I mean is, uh...just like this, if you were walking from the lower left of sketch two up this hall you were going to this room. And you either had to go, there was no way you could turn off in the near proximity. There were no other room.doors around that. Tt was like I was on the inside of some sort of a maze of vooms. And I actually would have to go through this room to get out into the hallway in order to go somewhere else. And this is where the photo was taken from, was that.e. Call that target photo. And the other end of the room is essentially blank because IT worked either here, and then when I ended up getting my back to safes then I was trying to put everything into perspective. Okay ecvsvceces Okay, so that's like an overhead layout. Oh, okay. And this desk here, when you asked me if there was any- to describe the room which did give me a little problem, ‘cause I didn't know whether it should be described as changes from the target photograph era, whenever that was, or if it was like changes since I had been there type situation. The only change is virtual, virtually no change. I didn't see any massive destruction or reorgan~ ization or looting or pillaging or anything like that. The only thing that was like the left hand desk was a little canted like it'd been shoved a little bit out of the way to allow more, more freedom of access between these two desks down here. And I've shown it in sketch two as being canted-thusly, but I had the feeling that they were.eseYight side by side when I started the session. And that the only thing I saw that looked like disarray was the feeling of- that's disarray not Desiree, was, uh, papers somewhat strewn on top of the desks, like almost as though people were working there, you know, not stacks of papers and envelopes but just like four or five sheets sort of helter skelter on top of the desk each. Okayeces Okay. The only other thing that I could do would be the the building I felt was, uh...I felt that I was in maybe a three or four story relatively modern building which appeared a light or white, didn't appear dark or baroque -00788R000400400001 -4
Approved For Release 2000/08/0 3BR000400400001-4 #10.5: which is what I would, you know, ornate in any way. It's modern, umy plain office building. I had the feeling that I wag in some sort of interior part of the complex. TI was not in a room that had anything to do with the window that I could look out of. And that the building, okay, it was white and that it was, uh...sort of "L" shaped, but not pronouncedly so... Three is it. And there, where I was was about on a third or fourth floor somewhere in the thick- interior thick part of the "L" where the "X" is. And that IT was on about a third or fourth floor of akree or four story building. I didn't even try to figure out where I Was, a just left it at thatecossscccvnce And these people where not dressed shabbily in any way. They were not dressed in manual labor clothes. They were dresged in nice business costumes. The old guy with the- at the safes, 55 or so, he's about 5t6", he has a widow's peak, dark hair, wears glasses that have speckles on the frames like those semi~clear plastic, sort of a narrow face, was wearing like a brown tweed suit, tie the whole works, right? Business office types and the woman was about 25 or 26, had brownish, biowactte- hair which was shoulder length and was wearing a nice white, um, blouse, open at the, open at the waist, you know, on top of her skirt type thing with sort of like billowing, not real puffy exorbitant sleeves, but sort of billowing sleeves with cuffs on tem down: around her wrists and had awhir® skirt. You know, a nice pleated typewrté skirt that you would expect some secretary to find, or something like that. Or to wear, rather. #66: You did state at one time that you thought it was peculiar that they were duplicating these documents in bulk? #10.5: Yeah. The reason is because the atmosphere of these peo— ple. These people- you know, all throughout the session I didn't know who the hell these people were. They could've been people that worked there for all I know. You know, despite emtiding surreptitiousness or whatever. If they were people that worked there then obviously they would know what it is they wanted if they were stealing documents and reproducing them for some nefarious reasons, so I would have expected them to be a little more selectic- selective, right? But no, they were- they weren't just pulling individual files and taking them away. I didn't actually see them doing any Xerox, nowe I knew that they were going to have them Xeroxed and that the place was 25 feet down the hall, but I didn't out there and visit it, I just sort of went- okay, it's around the corner and over there and I, you know, it was just one of these quick things. Uh, so them you would think then that they were outsiders Approved For Release oocinedneed Ee bechorssroco4004000014
Approved For Release 2000/08 #1005: WO 788R000400400001-4 De mi wAc ia AID, and then you would say, well outsiders probably wouldn't be dressed like this but only outsiders would have to Xerox every tht ie. ROM Rave to duplicate everything, because they really wouldn't have the time and the know ledge to go in and find precisely what it was they wanted copies of and everything, Okay? So that was sort of the quandry I was in, so I said to hell with it, you know, that's what they're doin', they're taking out sections of the file drawer, they're not taking out individual things, and let somebody else worry about who it is that's doing it, and where they're coming from. Okay. Is there anything else you want to add? No. Is there anything more that I talked about that I've forgotten? Not that I Tocallesee rere xq raat Okay. It'll change this,VI'1l add this. I have on sketch one desk shifted a little out of line. Noticed...only when asked, re: change. , There you have it. Okay. vine —SECREF Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000400400001-4
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000400400001-4 Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000400400001-4