A aaa a a a a a Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : RFE SAAR 000200100001-9 7 , #1 Ah ha. we’ #66 Now, I have no further questions about this target. If there's anything that you would like to add about the perceptions ‘that you've had, do so now. #1 I haven't got the slightest idea what this damn thing is...ah...the only thing I can say with any clarity is the...ah...there is a...ah...ah...what appears to be a radar site very close by. I don't...1I don't have any idea what this is. That's all I have to say. #66 OK, fine. Let's draw the perceptions you've had, then. #1 It's gonna take a while to draw all this stuff. OK, on Page 1, I'm gonna do an overall impression of how all this stuff is laid out. I got sort of an impression that there was a,..this arrow being North, it'ld be true North, that there was this...ah...first I thought it was a road, a concrete road, but then over to...ah...1 think it was the left side, there was a parallel road; it was much narrower so I got that, and I was cruising down this thing, so I got the impression it was a...ah...probably an airport runway of some sort, pointing...ah...North Northeast, and up here I got an impression - way up here ‘te /j to the right - there's sort of a indented harbor type area and a coast line that went like this. And...ah...in this area directly North of the runway I got an impression of Aas..a promitory of rock which has what I call the radar site on it. And then South of that, in the dotted box area, is eventually where I wound up at what I call the target. Now, there's a lot of other stuff in here, you know, and I was just flicking through it very rapidly. I got the impression that in this, what would be this page, scale wise, contained a whole lot of other things, and I might have been getting flashes of...ah...triple A sites and...ah...ah...tank parks, and...ah...billet area type things, and I'm not too sure it was all within this dotted box, you know, it might be within the peripherals of this...this area. #36 You...you mentioned a city...ah...somewhere at the...ah... #1 Oh. The city surrounded this...this like harbor type area. We'll call this the city. And, there were some other, now, some other towns, there was a...ah...I'll call it town, I don't have, you know, the idea of size or any - thing. There was one back here, and...ah...you know, quite a few little villages like along the coast, but... but these two were probably the most significant cities. Approved For Release 2000}/0¢/ b {6-00788R000200100001-9
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 sokeE wo’ #36 #1 #36 #1 #36 #1 ene” #36 #1 Approved For Release 2000/ 10 Ta I wonder where the villages are... Down along this coast, there...there was like a...ah...for lack of anything else, we'll call it a coastal road. I got the impression that...that this area, which I'l1l...I'll draw black lines through...ah...let's hash mark it. This area where the hash marks are, I got the impression became very, very rugged, and behind me to the rear, probably the south Southeast, were...were mountains of some sort. Not very big ones, you know, just mountains. If you could call a mountain standard, there's standard mountains to the South Southeast. And jungle, quite a bit of jungle back there where the mountains were. Were the cigar shapes inside the box or where were they relative to all of that. Inside the...ah...hash marked box. OK, we'll talk about that later, I just want to know where it was. Yea. And...ah...this...now, this hash marked box might be larger or smaller, you know, I don't... But that's just symbolic, that kind of... That's the general, yea, that's the general area I'm gonna talk about. I don't have any idea of perspective of size here on this. And this is the coast. Now, Page 2. I'm gonna, realizing this may not, you know, I don't know what to call the target in this particular session, so I'm gonna do it all because you may want it all, OK. I got a...the impression that I was standing next to a...some kind of a large trailer and this trailer, to the right...ah...should have went down like that, had a..eeah...cat walk type afair with a metal flooring, and steps coming down to the ground, like this. And there was...ah...like a...a framework of pipes supporting this mess, and concrete footing. This is really very simplistic the way I'm drawing this; it was far more complicated. You know, there was...ah...you had all these cross pieces under here, you know, like this, and up here was like a...these things coming out to support this like framework back here. I don't know exactly how all this junk went. There's just this mass of pipes, you know, and this was like a trailer here, and then supported on this mess was a...ah...some kind of a squared platform type afair with a cross hatch jp-00788R000200100001-9
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 SEG p he hesdoneve200100001-9 floor and a very large banana type dish that also had all — the supporting pipes and crap coming out of it, like this. I don't know how to draw that. #36 Did you say banana shape? #1 Yea, it was a big banana shape thing. Ah...if I were to draw a cross sectional of that or look at it from the other side, I'll do an inset here, it would have looked like...ah...this. That kind of thing, OK. But that's close up. Page 2, when I backed off from this mess, that's a door on Page 2. Oh, and around this whole thing, on Page 2, there was...ah...like a fence. Like a chain link Fence of some sort. It's like a chain link fence around ‘this whole mess, and I'm not sure it was really chain link, but that's what it looked like. Page 3. When I backed off, went up to about 200 feet and backed off about 1,000 feet, I got the impression that this...this device was sitting up here like this on a... sitting out here like this, all by itself, like a...like a promitory rock, there's another road coming away from it, and that...ah...there were low hills here, this sort of thing, and the...ah...coast. was way out here, and that the...ah...air strip was, well, the air strip was back here, and over here was the tube type target. Now, for the hard part. The first impression that I had was...ah...this silver cylinder type, and the reason why I say silver was, you know, shining very brightly, and there was like a flatter type thing in the front like this, and there appeared to be something that looked very much like it laying on its side like this, and there was... ah..-here's where it gets very complex; appeared to be some kind of tubes coming off like that, and...ah...there was a...some kine of a tube like thing coming off here, and I...1 don't know where all these tubes are going. Had the distinct impression that's what they were. It's like these two big or three big vents coming back this way with some kind of like screen type stuff over them, and these went up to a squared area, like that. I got the impression that there was some kind of corregated metal wall under that, and that there was like a...a lot of angular impressions, like this, that was, you know, was all like steel reinforced concrete. You know, walls of steel reinforced concrete. Ahm...this is a very simplistic view of what this appeared to be. Oh, back over here, there looked like this thing that looked like the front end of a tractor like, and for reason, I got the impression of engines, you know, call it an engine device. And...ah... Approved For Release 2000/08 oe 88R000200100001-9
Approved For Release 2000/08/0%: : Approved For Release 2000 #36 #1 #36 #1 1788R000200100001-9 this is a. very simplistic impression of what I was seeing. It was far more complex than this, and...ah...this, which I'll label A, is the one that I attempted to look into, Ok. I'll try to show you what that appeared to be...ah... looking down on this, getting a dotted outline of this tube, it's supposed to be round by-the-way. So I'm not very good free’hand. Looking down on this thing, the first object appeared to be something that looked just exactly like a baseball. Now, I'm gonna put an arrow to it and bring it out here and draw it better, OK. It's a round shaped object, and it had this kind of impression on the side, just like a baseball wraping, and there were large silver screws going around, just like this, and this was seated in like...ah...some form of a socket type affair, which...ah...appeared now to be something like...something like this. You know, I don't...that sort of thing, you know, sort of a socket type thing. And then, under that... that mess there appeared to be like...ah...these stacked tanks, and...ah...they looked a lot like...ah...this is just an impression now, like a diver's tank. Some kind of a storage tank of some sort. What do you mean, a diver's air tank? Yea, like an air...air...air...ah...tank. And, in this whole mess, there's like...ah...this stuff. This... ah...black spaghetti like stuff, maybe wiring or something. And, I tryed to look through to the bottom of this thing, and on the bottom I got an impression...1 got an impression of...ah...just a black circle, and then I get an impression of a black circle with concentric rings with a hash marking like this over it, OK. And this thing had...ah...this whole melange of things coming out of it. I don't have any idea what this thing is. I don't know how to draw it better. It looks quite...quite involved, quite complicated. I only have one other question. Ah...I have a note here that you mentioned something about a buried or semi-buried concrete shaped... OK. Let me do a layout from the top. This will be Page 6. Looking down on the top of this thing, cylinder A, larger cylinder B, would appear to be some form of cylinder laying on its side is C, and...ah...I don't know exactly how all these walls went. The vents, corregated walls, some kind of engine device. Back over here are three distinct mounting pads of some sort that are empty. I mentioned them because they may be significant in, you know, orienting the...the drawing or whatever. These are aft , 100788R000200100001-9
Approved For Release 2000/08/0 SEP yesBetees2000200100001-9 #36 #1 #36 #1 #66 #1 #66 Approved For Release 2000/08 5 , CAR all quite a...quite a distance back, they're...they're fairly large. And back...and to this side, I get the impression of a large concrete structure on which there was sand, like that, but this end was...ah...clear. Now, I got the impression that in...in this whole area in here, there was a lot of steel reinforced concrete. Did you have a feeling for why it was reinforced? No, it was just a very heavy, yea, just a very heavy construction technique, you know, like...ah...I just get the word hardened concrete keeps coming into my mind, 1 don't why, you know, so, I just mentioned it. I don't have any more questions. Good luck. That's it. Ah...there's one other question that comes to mind here in looking at your drawings that I have...ahm... In... ahm...the drawing that you have done from overhead, well, I asked you to look through the container and describe what is on the inside of this thing, and I noticed from your drawing that you draw this thing as though you're right over the top of it. I thought that you were talking about it, as you were talking, as though you were looking at the side of it, so...ah...it was a surprise to me when you drew this from the top. Can you tell me a little bit about why you perceived it from the top? I'm not sure I can answer that, other than the fact, the last position I was viewing in was from the top, and it may be that I...it might be that I just failed to move or it may be that that is the clearest angle that I can view the cylinder from, is from the top. Yea, I get the sensation that looking from the side would have been even more complex because of the tubes, and the pipes, and everything that are all clustered around it, you know, all the other objects are around it. And I just felt like the easiest access to the inside of this cylinder tube was through the top. I think that's probably why I viewed it from that angle. And even that was...ah...caused a very complex situation. I would say it's probably easier to view...the easiest access for viewing clarity would be through the top. Why, I don't know. OK. Thinking about being on target in recalling in your mind what it was like being there, is it possible to see this from the side? 88R000200100001-9
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 Ssh teeter 200100001-9 : f #1 #66 #1 #66 Yea, it's possible, but I think that you would have to go through an awful lot of...ah...awful lot of complex...ah... ah...1 don't want to call it construction, and [I don't want to call it...ah...structure...and I...there's just this... ah... melange of things that are clustered around it that I think you would have a lot of difficulty seeing this; these cylinders from the side clearly. I say, this...ah...this drawing in Page...ah...4 is a very simplistic outline sketch of the structure or whatever it is in general, and...ah... it...it lacks, you know, the complexity that is really there as far as...ah...-you know, over...overhead wire or whatever, tubes, pipes...ah...there's connector pieces there. I don't know exactly what their function is, but they got tubes going to them...ah...and...and a lot of it looks to be very refined and detailed work. I mean, it's not like...ah...just a steel box, it's like...ah...it's like a polished stain...stainless steel box with some...some very refined brass machining or whatever done on the sides and like the baseball type object had recessed...ah...screw heads in it that were just, you know, really shiny, polished metal, you know, very well machined. It wasn't something that you'ld buy off the hardware shelf, you know, put together, this is...there is some very sophisticated machine done in this...ah...entire target, and...ah...I think that's one of the reasons why it's causing me such a lot of difficulty cause all...the machining is so precise, all the lines are very, very clear. Maybe that's significant for remote viewing, I don't know. There's no fuzzy lines involved here; it's all very precise, you know, lines. I don't...1 don't know how to describe that, but it makes it very, very complex. OK. And, you talk about the drawing on Page 4, then...ah... I hear you saying that you're not comfortable with the... the drawing itself; that it doesn't really represent... It...it...in a very general way, as if...like if I were to draw a stick figure for a man, that you could comfortably look at that at any time and say this probably signifies a man, OK. My drawing on Page 4 signifies the placement of the major objects that I've seen, but doesn't come even close to the complexity of the inter-connecting devices and everything that were there. And I...1...it's...I would have to start at one end and literally target piece by piece all the way across the target to develop any kind of real...ah...ah...accuracy as far as its complexity. Now, when you were...ah...outside and originally accessing the target, you had a feeling about an orientation of... of coast line and...ah...an air strip and soforth and so on. Ah...can you tell me from what perspective you saw these various surrounding areas? For example, what I'm asking ll Approved For Release 2000/oedgaapfon{aphadiailiz#8R000200100001-9
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 ~brdmckappdfasidiaes0200100001-9 Approved For Release 2000/08/07, "Gj #1 #66 #1 #66 you is were you on the ground looking out at the horizon or were you up at some altitude scanning (mumble) directions. When I...when I first came on the target, when you...when you first gave me coordinates, the first thing that popped in my mind was I was...eah...probably 150 feet off the ground and cruising straight down the center of this concrete highway, and, as I perceived a parallel narrower road to my left, I got the impression that this isn't a highway, so I...I excellerated my speed and altitude at the same time, as if I pulling away from it, and I clearly saw that it was an air- port or what I perceived to be an airport. Then, directly to my front, I felt like I was going in a...probably a North Northeast direction. Directly to my front, on horizon, was a coast line and that's when I started scanning the area to...ah...to see if I could locate the significant target. And I saw...then I saw flashes, like what appeared to be zoom...zoom up flashes of...ah...this radar site to the front left and then the...ah...what appeared to be some form of a SIGINT site to my rear right...ah... These kind of things...ah...vehicle parked to my front right...ah...there appeared to be...ah...some kind of barracks or billet type buildings to my immediate left back over my shoulder behind the...ah...air strip area...ah...coastal road, rolling hills, ah...mountains behind me. It was like this was all, you know, rapid fire sort to speak, just all coming at one time. And...ah...for some reason, I just zeroed down on this... ah...this structure type thing with the cylinders. OK, The...ah...the radar site, at first, when I...ah...pictured that was..eah...was a very, you know, a very close zoom type effect, and I though that might be the...the target, so I was sort of flipping back at that, you know, sort of like a flash, and I...ah...backed away from that to where I could describe that it was a radar site. And...ah...I had the...eabout the same effect with the...ah...what I believe to be probably a SIGINT facility to my rear right. I was up very close to it and I backed off a little bit to see what it was. Got the impression it was a SIGINT site. Ah...there's...ah...quite a bit of significant...there's a lot of significant objects on the ground in this area, and...ah...why I wound up at these particular cylinders, I don't know. OK. I'tld you to talk a little bit now about your ability to see through things and how you felt about looking at the various target areas. Las E 8R000200100001-9
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 7 GB ROCs RpesPadd 200100001-9 . #1 we #66 #1 #36 #1 #36 Approved For Release 2000/08/ Om Well...ah...when I...when I looked at all the targets, 1 was getting, you know, just like visual pictures. I wasn't having any trouble. When I settled. on this...this particular tube like target, what my first impression of what I saw was a glinting silver cyliners. Sunlight gleeming off these cylinders... And...ah...a lot of angular hard concrete type construction, what I call reinforced concrete...ah... hardstand and stuff, and there was very, very little detail. I think what captured me was the...almost the spun aluminum effect for the cylinders and the...the angular...angularities of the concrete. But then when I tryed to zoom in and concentrate on this particular target, the...the...1 think the precision and the sophistication involved in this target, for some reason, caused me to see everything in...in...in relief, what I call relief. Everything was very...ah...was erystaline clear, you know, but everything was very precise, there was no fuzzy lines, and...ah...then I realized that I was actually seeing through the objects, and I...I don't know why. I was seeing them in the fourth dimension as if there was no solids; I was just looking through everything. And, I guess, the only portion that I wasn't looking through was the...ah...the hardened concrete and, for some reason, these three big...these three large exhaust vents on Page 4. I saw in very precise sharpness the...ah...the hatch...the hatching work over the...ah...the exhaust vents, you know, that was very clear in detail. But for some reason I didn't look through the exhaust vents. I don't...I don't know how to explain it. Ok. May...maybe it was a different interest in this target. Maybe I had to see through it...ah...from an interest standpoint where the others were clearly identifiable to me or something that I didn't, you know, didn't require that necessity. Tt looked as if the banana shape was oriented roughly vertically toward the sky. Is there any significance to that? Ah...the banana shape, I don't about it oriented towards the sky; it was...the actual...the length...the length part of it, the long part of it, was horizontal to the earth, and...ah...there was a...about a...1 would call a 20 degree arc or sweep. This thing was rotating, but was only doing chopped arcs, you know, it was... OK, I see how you got it here, I...1 thought this was dish pointing vertically, I...1 see it has sort of... 000200100001-9
Approved For Release 2000/05/o MEE BPR Foer.000200100001-9 . #1 ww’ #36 #1 #36 #66 #1 #66 #1 No, no, no. That's the back, you're looking at the back. I'll write back on it. Yea, I see it now. I recognize what it...OK. That would be sort of like a...a collector type thing. Yea, OK. That's all I have. Do you have a feeling for where in the world this target is? South America somewhere, I would imagine. Ah...1I get that impression from the jungles and the...ah...the climate. I had...ah...ah...warm sensation there, tropical type sensation. I probably say in South America somewhere. OK. Anything you want to add? No. 14 Approved For Release 2000 OT ETE Hts b0788R000200100001-9