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Haz&T maybe?
Light.
S.
All
right
.
Skin?
A.
White,
fair,
almost babyish.
S.
Okey,
any distinguishing marks that you would ordinarily see
that yo^
associate with
him? Sharpness of features?
A.
There
is
no sharpness
of features,
but sharpness of character.
By
character,
personality.
Joe College.
You know what
I mean.
S.
How about his
bearing,
the way
he walks?
A.
(?)
This
is what
I mean
(?)
S.
So you say
he
has
an upright bearing and sort
of marches out rather
than,
than,
not slouchy at all.
A.
No.
very,
let me put
it this way,
l//ould put him
as
a typical
Madison
Avenue
type,
Wall
Street.
S.
Where
does
he
live;
can you get an impression,
immediately around
the area where he works,
or does
he
live
in Virginia, Washington,
D.C.
,
Maryland?
A.
(?
?
?)
He
is married.
S.
Married,
A.
I
believe that
he has children, maybe
two.
S.
Sex of children?
A.
I
don't
know.
S.
Young children?
A.
Young,
I would give you,
running around.
S.
Are
they pre-school?
Are either of them
in school?
A.
It would appear that either pre-school , or that one
has
started school.
S.
Does
he
commu/fte for
a
long distance
to work,
or medium distance,or
short distance?
A.
No answer at this
time.
S.
And
no location of where he
lives.
A.
No location.
Let me put
it this way,
I
know th&t he uses
a car and
goes
off base
(?)
S.
Does
he
car-pool;
does
he drive himself?
A.
He drives
himself,
because
I
only
see one
(?).
S.
What
is
the make of the car?
Color of the car?
A.
(?)(no make or color given)
S.
Okey
noto,
this person you say was
reasonably recently recruited
by someone
to
be an agent
in place.
What country recruited him?
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A.
?
(very short,
non country answer)
S.
All
right.
A.
It appears
that
(?)
information that it would be paid for,
but
I
don't
even know/what country
it
is,
is
that possible?
S.
It
is possible that he
is deceived,
that someone might even think that
he
is working
for the United States.
There are
a number of recruiting
devices,
but let's
don't go
into
that.
I wani^to cut through
all
of that,
and regardless of who he thinks
he
is working
for,
actually what country
is behind
it?
A.
I'll
have
to
return
to that because
I'm at that point
> you
know,in
rny,
you
know how my mimd works
to get through
a point
(?).
S.
Okey,
but let me try
to program you
a little bit on,
.
.
it
is
possible that he was
approached
by
a country and he
is convinced,
that he may not think that he
is
doing anything
traftorious
at
this
point)
that he was
approached
by someone who convinced him by documentation
or by referals that
the* person that approached him
is
a member of Army
counter-intelligence,
and that he
is
being used
tojtest the security of the
office, when
in
fact that
is
a cover for recruitment and that he
is
,
that he
is,
that person
is working for an alien government.
Just
a second,
let's clear the dog out of here.
A.
It appears
to 4e that this
information
is
going
to certain people
in which
in turn
they
sell
that information
tp
a
customer-,
can
this
be
possible?
S.
Yes,
this
is
possible.
A.
It seems
to
be the way
that
it
is,
and it
is
not
a direct
(?)
(country
?)
(Not)
Russia,
China,
Lybia iU or any country
in the Middle East.
S.
All
right,
give me some details about this
group,
are they American
citizens
or
a mixed group,
or what?
A.
Its
a mixed
- well, you kno^it,
again psychic emotion,
and when
I
say
psychic emotion
I mean something with
impact,
it looks
like,
and when
I
Sc^y
looks
like
I mean
j_t
is.
They
are not foreigners,
although there are
one or two which
I
think from their faces
to be foreign,
they
look like
Chinese or Japanese, you
know,
I'm not saying
that they are,
I m merely
saying
that
tfrat
it
is
an American group with foreign people
in
it,
in which
thay can transfer this
information.
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S.
Okey,
but it
is essentially
it
is
a private enterprise.
Is
that what you
are saying?
A.
That
is what
I
am saying.
It
is something
so different to me, you
know
in
(?)
that
is
I'm confused.
S.
Okey,
don't worry about whether
it
is
startlin' ng
or conceivable or
IB conceivable.
Where
is
this
group
A.
Well,
the
cent-ral
headquarters
^Washington (W
is Washington.
S. Where about
in Washington?
A.
I
don't know,
all
I could see was
(?)
in my mind whether it was
this
building or that building.
S.
Okey’^are you talking about Washir^ton,
D.C.?
A.
Yea,
Washington,
D.C.
An office tbatf'appears
to be
a
ifgitimOT* office.
S.
Okey
now,
let's
try
to be precise,
the Washington,
D.C.
area including
Maryland
and Virginia.
.
.
A.
No.
Washington,
the city of Washington,
D.C.
S.
The political
erility of Washington,
D.C.
A.
Washington,
D.C.
where
the capitol
is.
S.
Do they have another meeting places
anywhere else
in
the United States,
dr the world?
A.
The answer to that
is,
the only word
that comes
to me
is
,
and
I
don
t
know whether itrmeans
anything
is
"net"-.
.
.
"network."
S.
All
right,
network.
A.
And the reason
I
see that
is
that
in my mind there are lines.
S.
Okey
et me change
the question from meeting places*
do
they have any
other offices if in other places
in the Unites
States
or anywhere else
in
the world?
A. The answer
is yes.
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S.
Okey,
then the network you have a psychic impressaion of lines
as if there
is a
- linkages
- okey let's stop this line of
inquiry and if
the Army is interested we
can pick it up later.
I want to get more identification of the second persony
about whom*! you have strong feelings.
This
is the young man
who may be
carrying or perhaps
did carry the device which was the
transmitter.
You describe him as a young man before.
Can we have
a pick up on that description and give
us as much detail as
possible
.
.
.
X.
— _____ after a pause and discussion off tape
-
-
S.
We have been discussing this description in size and the
location of the transmitter,
and Alex is now making a sketch of
it^larger than life
size.
A.
ArUin it is a very smal]/^ot
.
.
S.
This
is.
.
A.
This
is,
let us
say
S.
Well,
what is this thing?
A.
This thing looks like something within the device
the person
is carrying,
all right,
one of the trans -sys terns
,
and within
that system
.
.
.
the system has
- l'ke
a little
cartridge.
S.
Okey,
but
I
want to know this,
yesterday
jchh and this
is on
the other side
of the
tape,
you came up with the suggestion
that it was a computer.
.
A.
All right
S.
A hand held computer.
A.
Its like
a little
computer.
o
S.
All right is that what iah that
is.
A.
No,
no,
this
is
not the
computer.
S.
That is something inside
the
computer.
A.
That is inside
the
computer.
S .
Okey
A.
|t looks like
a little
cailtrfige,very small,
all right?
S.^like
a battery maybe.
A.
Like
a,
but its very small,
like
a battery bu^Cery small.
S
.
Okey
A.
Its something like
the pin of a needle,
the head
of a needle.
S.
Okey,
but that's that little
dot.
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S.
Okey, but
I want to know *hat this oblong thing is?
A.
That oblong,* its
just my image of something that looks like
inside^ of whatever it
is,
the computer or whatever they are
carrying.
S.
That's a component part
A.
A component part in
it.
It
is very samll.
S.
Okey,
hbkk now draw the computer around i* that
so that we
know where,
where that
is.
Is
it
in the center,
or one
corner or one
end,
or what?
?
A.
Okey,
can we shut that offi
S.
Yea.
A.
Note that it really doesn't fully belong into
this,
not that
he always feeishave any
dout>
"b
at)OU
't what
I was
saying.
What Dr.
Osis said
that
that some of the things are
so outrageous and so way out
that those are the things that are really £ggl tna*- you get on
the
(?)
and that's how
I
feel about what
I
just tolA you.
I mean it seems
so
out,
but that's
the way
I
feel about it.
psychically.
.
S.
Okey, w&at we are talking about and what was off the recorder
for a short time was a discussion of solid state
circuitry.
Alex feels very strongly,
psychically* that something that he
can best describe
now' that appears and may be
a hand-held
calculator,
or some device that appears that way is
the
receptor of a transmitter.
The transmitter itself is exceeding*^
small,
very small,
pin head size.
And appears
is embedded
or is a disguised part of a normal electronic oomponent.
He £hk
feels also that this
is activated^ sehRnxtkH that the transmitter
is turned on by the switch that normally turns on the
devices^
let's say the calculator,
and by extension is therefore only
used when it is turned
on,
and when the calculator or device
is
turned off,
then it is not transmitting.
Is this correct?
A.
That is correct
S.
And that this device has been unwittingly carried,
that
is_,the
transmitter has been unwittingly carried into the
suite by a
young man whoes description has been given.
That there
is an
employee,
also relatively young,
but what,
older than the man
carrying the device,
this
is
the agent in place
-
-
the relative
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;¥
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A.
One
is older than the
other.
S.
Okey,
and which is older
w,
the agent in place?
A.
The agent in place,
the man carrying is
the younger.
S.
SikRyx Is
the younger,
okey
A.
Now
I have to say that the man carrying
-
it is unknown to him.
S.
fikay Right,
we have
that.
All right now,
the next issue,
Alex,
is
one we have faced before,
we have gone reasonably far,
you have reached a block on this.
And this concerns
the issue
of
time.
The young man,
it is^su^gested on another tape,
that the
young man carrying this,
and/just for purposes of conversation
call it a calculator,
hand calculator
-
-
the man carrying
this hand calculator is
the man who you feel
will take
a trip
or has taken a trip,
which may end up or has ended up in his
death,
being killed.
Alex,
has
this happened,
or ii is it
something to happen in the future?
or may happen in the future?
A.
?
?.
I don't know.
S.^That is perfectly all right,
always an acceptable answer.
A.
It's
just that
- again
I have a psychic emotion on it,
a psychic
emjytion
-
- whenever
I have
a psychic emption
(?)
and
I have
to say that,
but
I
don't know ifxiha whether the
man is dead,
•»
•
(?)
it can be
stopped.
S.
The point is^Alexf^not to lay a* additional burden on you,
pressure,
but to make
it obvious,
if it has already happened;
if the young man has taken his trip,
and has not returned,
this will tend to verify all
of this
s
<ewehario,
but it also
may mean that it will be more difficult,
if not impossible,
to locate
the bug,
the device,
or^other devices like
this
and the counter
(measure), and it may also make it more difficult
to wrap this whole
thing up.
A.
I understand this,^let mw put it this way,
from my past
experience in working in the
lab,
you know,
things have come
out that,
psxxkHHHX they are not,
you know turning out
(?)
and therefore I'm not
going to stop with this
tape,
(?)
the information will then he related to
.
.
.
S,
Okey,
I'll make
sure
that
it gets transfered.
A.
But what I'm trying to say is,
I have one of the settings,
they have
to understand this,
I
don't know
(? if there has been
a murder?
?)
I
do get a psychic emotion because
of
the trauma
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that takes
there,
but
I
also get a psychic emotion
(from)
the
tramma
\krhat will take place .
And
in^ here
,
because
I am not in
the situati on,,) the situationM you know we have been as close
as we could get,
it doesn't seem yet enough for
(?)
,
it is
one
of the short comings at this movement that it
is not
-Comingtfw-
S.
Well,
are you suggesting,
it appears that you are suggesting
to me that you could be more precise if you were allowed imtear
entry into the suite & 333
A.
I would say that it is a high probability that
I
would be
akixK able
to,
but
I would not
.
.
.
S.
Okey,
A.
I would still pick up the emotions,
but you know,
in other
st
words,
the center of my work is
to pick up the emotion of
what is wrong,
or what has been wrong in the placed and therefore
try to put it together in some
- description
,
and the things that
I
state,
so that the people there can make significant
(?)
S.
Would the effect or the pick-up We essentially the
same
whether you were there with people
or without people?
Otherwise,
if you went there in the evening,
for security purposes,
so that
you would not interrupt anything going on there,
would it be
jus#
as valuable
to
do that^at night say,
as it would be during the
cf&y?
A.
Yes it would be.
Let me put it this way,
I don't know,
^yjy
I never did itAin a living group.
I've done
it
(?)
in the past.
What I've done in the
same
junction you are talking about like
on Wall Street or other places,
is while
the people
are there
I would just walk through and,
you know,
have my psychic emotion
work
intii
it.
Now,
I'm willing to try it,
but, you know,
again
it would be
a first
time.,
S.
Okey,
well
that's theUe decision.
A.
I'm
just giving you the information.
S.
But it woyld appear to be a good deal more awkward for you to
walk,
just walk through during the day when people are
in place
because
of the normal security.
A.
What can be
done,
what can be
done
Sciitt,
We can walk through
the empty building
(?)
and see what
I pick up,
and if I'm not
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S.
All right.
Well, let
us shift from this line right now.
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I
think we've hit all those things that we tried,
that we
talked about yesterday on the ©ther side
of the
tape,
that
we going to come back
to
- that is identification of the man
and a stick point is whether
or not the young man disappearance
has taken place and his possible death,
or whether that is
something in the future.
Yoi^nentioned yesterday,
that did no±
get on the tape
(this
is in error,
it did
get on the
tape)
when we were driving back from Fort Belvior
-
is there on
record
the disappearance
of another young man,
a military
personnel that has'nt been investigated.
Is that the connection
you had?
A.
Yes*
thatis another question
S.
That is another question,
somehow it is related.
A.
Somehow,
something is related to it,
I'm not sure what it
is. (?)
S.
Okey,
well it is on tape,
and that was the reason
I wanted
to get it on tape.
Let's
cycle back
just for a moment to the
second female.
Will you tell
us where
she
is going to fit in?
Where does she
fit in?
A.
She
is a transit only.
S.
A transient in the senge
that she doesn't work full time
in
333
is all
I can say
A.
Or comes in and out
I
don't see her coming in at eight
js
o'clock in the mornigg,
nine o'clock.
S.
Is
it possible that she works somewhere else in the building
and on occasion comes down to 333?
A.
The answer is no.
S.
She doesn't work in the building? Does
she work on thebase?
A. Let us return to
that.
that
she travels fyum time h±
to
time^ into the
suite,
but is not on the base.
For whatreason
I
don't know.
But
I
do know that there
is something (lO/the secrecy
of the
(?)
S.
But,
okey,j[it could be important to
the normal pr"~oject
that they are working on,
i1j4lso could be important to the leak?
A.
Yes.
S. Which is it,
or
is it both?
A.
Its,
its, what i& says is important to the whole thing
we have been discussing.
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S.
Okey,
"but that again is
everything^, so we need
7 if you
can^,
to get some differentiation,
now or later
on.
A.
It*s
just that she came in as
a shadow,
you know at the
beginning,
by shadow meaning disturbance in the xggwgw
sceate,
I should have pursued it,
or something,
I dpn't recall
what happened
(?)
I will continue it this week when
I get back
(to Maine)
(?)
S.
Okey, Alex,
I want to know,
this bug is transmitting
information out of the suite,
out of the building,
now
it is being received somewhere.
Where
is that somewhere,
how
far is itX transmitting?
One of the problems
odl
.
.
.
A.
It's
close,
and it may be right on the base.
S,
I would kg suspect that it is on
kfca base.
Where on base
Alex,
you have been around
tha~"t
base,
did you come close
to
a receiving site?
A.
i/nzs wondering Scott,
(?
?
?
?),the psychic emotion comes
through
(
?
?
)
S.
But it would be easier if it could be in one
of the homes
in the housing area closer to thai.
Is
it in one
of those?
A.
I don ' t knc^t
m just trying to explain^^^the^short time
(he was on‘Mse)^‘fh^sychic tells me that it is either on
base or close located
(end of tape
6)
-
-
-
—
-
-
- Tape
-
-
-
S.
The person who monitor^ the bug,
the signal for reception
and recording out of room
y 333— Alex,
you said that it
transmits for a short distance,
or
th«r receiver
is a short
distance away from the transmitter,
probably on base.
Is
that person who receives that^and is responsible for recording
y
it male or feihale?
A.
At this present time my psychic tells me that it is
a female,
s. an right.
,ts.
#
A.
But
I don't know,
-e-xeept that is
clafirvo^pce
.
.
S.
Okey,
now,
but does that person live on base,
or come
on the base and go off the base?
A.
At
the present time,
no answer.
S.
No answer.
Is that person an employee,
a full-time employee
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of this organization that has
a network that
is responsible
SuUr^ijne employee?
,
.a.—
for this act of esp&tnage?
A.
The answer, is no* f?
l
i w?)
I'm not saying ? f*“
-r
-77
S.
Well,
let me
,
okey,
I^can see
that,
but^ does
this
re^i
row
j ^
female
r-e-Xoit&s that she
is,
what she
is doing,
does
she know-
ingly do this,
or
is she in fact being used.
Has the received
and recorder been planted in her apartment or house and she
y*
J
doesn't realize what is going on?
A.
This
is what
I
don't
kno^yet.
I keep
ti
-(4
-?—)
and
I 'm trying to relate*^^^!^
3?fc tells me that if
I
can interpretate the symbol of
the* xines,
it tells me
I have ±o
follow these,
you know ^ha^t^ere^s^ind of a
c
jfcXxSbcXfc By doing it before
by^
S.
worry about the rH
to let if go at this point.
S.
All right let's,
Alex,
for conversation in the future,
if
__
__ section -
.QJ'^SJr^r
,
/*Ro)
and Dr.
Osis
not to
something urgent comes up and we have
to refer to this
over the phone,
let's call this
the
"Z" network, with3*if
refering to listening devices
or receivers or room 333,
or anything else.
If you say
I have some more information on *
the
"Z" network
just tell what it is without any reference
to any of this/
But we will only do thht if you think that it
is sp vital that you can't wait to write
it
that they are as sensitive
to this as we,
if not more
so,
after all,
this
isfsome of their full-time
job,
we are only
part-time actors.
-
-
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end of tape
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R0007001 40004-7