nrjjRTT
Approved For Release 2000/08/g^|Jf%iB|>P96-00788R000200200001-8
+04
#19.5:
I
see
a rather peculiar form of road pattern
on
the ground.
It
looks like
a pattern
of ...
.
curves off of curves.
Sort of like all road inter-
sections are
a
Y.
Y
shaped intersections.
PAUSE
And,
.
.
.
feel
like
I'm
on fairly high ground.
PAUSE
I still got an impression that this complex
is
very
large.
And this particular building's only
a
.
.
.
small part of
it.
PAUSE
I
see
vi/hat apparently
is
a small airstrip
of some
sort.
.
.
off to the side.
I
said
its small.
Its
either small or the angle I'm looking
at
it
is
.
.
some distance.
But its only
a
.
.
.
just
a very
simple airstrip.
Like
its got
one,
one apron and
that's all.
PAUSE
#43.5:
+07
#43.5:
See the same circus tent pattern that
I saw last
time.
It appears
to be some kind of radial pattern.
Its radial.
Like spokes on
a hub.
Only this time
,
I'm seeing
it sort
of from
a side angle,
a
.
.
an impression
of
a
.
.
.
Oh,
I
they're.
.
,
I'm getting
don't
know,
like
a
droop.
droop
in the spokes.
PAUSE
Okay,
I want you
to focus your attention
on the
building.
Tell me how that you get inside this
building.
Focus your attention
on
this building.
Tell me how you would get inside
it.
#19.5:
There's
a very,
very simple door.
Its
nothing
to it really.
Its
dark,
sort of
a dark gray
on
a light colored background.
A white
or
an off-
color white background.
Its kind of down
on the
side
of the building.
That's the entry
door.
Okay,
go through the entry
door and tell me what
you
see.
PAUSE
#19.5:
Black.
Its
a
.
.
I
get
a sensation like
I
.
.
.
I
pass through
a screen
of some sort when
I went
through the
door.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8
fljrftrsrT
\
PlT!
iTT
Approved For Release 2000/^9C6IaSdP96-00788R000200200001-8
+12
#19.5:
There's
a.
.
.
a
.
.
.
.
like
a
.
.
I want
to say
its
a blackout curtain but that's not
vi/hat
it
is.
Its
.
.
.
like
a curtain
for
light,
keep light
out.
Its darker
in the building.
Sunlight
is very bright
here.
The impression
of very bright,
warm sun.
There's
.
.
.
just
a straight hallway that goes to
a
T intersecting hallway.
#43.5:
Okay,
go to that
T
intersection.
Go to the
T
intersection and tell me what you
see.
PAUSE
#19.5:
On
the left section
.
.
.
there's
.
.
short hallway
that goes
to the left
again.
The right section
.
.
of the
T,
there's
a.
.
.
appears
to be
a
a door at the end.
I
kind
of lose the right section
for some reason.
I
think there's
.
.
.
maybe
a set
of swinging
doors
or something
in
the middle
of
a
corridor and then there's another set of doors at the
end of the corridor.
I
don't know what that
is.
It
looks
like.
.
looks like you
go through swinging doors
or something.
.
as you
go down the corridor.
#43.5:
I want you
to move around
in
here.
Move around inside
the building and tell me what you
feel about this
building
or what the function of this building
is.
Move around so you get
a feel for the building.
Take
your time.
PAUSE
#19.5:
I
get
a
.
.
.
its
a
.
.
.
doesn't make sense.
Its like
a
.
.
.
a
.
.
.
its built alot like
a tracking type
center that
I was
in
once.
Or,
it has
a flavor
of
collection,
like
.
.
its not
a SIGINT collection,
its
a
.
.
more of
a
.
.Oh.
.
.
.
like
a Downlink collection
site.
I would call
it
like
a Downlink collection site
from the
.
.
.
(not audible)
type.
#43.5:
Tell me what you ....
okay.
Tell me what made
you say
that.
Why
do you
feel that way?
PAUSE
#19.5:
I
get
a sensation
that everything here
is pointed up.
I
don't know that
.
.
Let me break that down.
PAUSE
I get
an impression
that
.
.
.
that like everything
is.
.
.
the interest
lies within
an angular
.
.
.
.
Approved For ReleasQ(2j(il^&/p8^07uiCIAtRDR|6^0IB^R00020H200001 -8
U
-Hill
Approved For Release 2000/0ffltiR!CRDP96-00788R000200200001 -8
#19.5:
Like
a sort
of an
Ionispheric early warning system
of some sort.
Like you would look at
a horizon but
the very high part
of the horizon.
The angle would
be like 20/22 degrees off of perpendicular
to
a flat
surface
on
the earth.
Looking North.
Not quite North.
I'd say North/Northeast.
For some reason,
it just
.
.
.
.
Oh shit,
pardon
me.
#43.5:
Relax.
PAUSE
#19.5:
I
see
.
.
I see this pattern
like running down the
globe from
a very high altitude and
its
.
.
.
the
pattern
is very much like the
.
.
what used to be
the old Eastern test range type.
.
pattern.
.
when
Canaveral was still
.
.
was way back launching rockets.
The old Van Guards and things and.
.
.
#43.5:
Urn
hm.
#19.5:
Only this
isn't part
.
.
This isn't part
of the
old Eastern test range,
but
its looking
into the
Eastern test range area.
I
don't
.
.
I
don't
.
.
understand that.
Its like diagonally off the ....
the.
.
the grid.
.
the pattern.
Its like
a
.
.
peri-
phial collector
of some sort.
#43.5:
Okay.
Relax.
Relax.
Don't try
to figure everything
out.
Don't worry about
that.
All
right.
As you
moved around,
did you
see any personnel
in the area?
#19.5:
Yeah.
There's
.
.
.
a
.
.
.
military and there's
para-military.
Paramilitary are wearing what appear
to
be khaki uniforms but they're not complete.
I
get
a feeling
th.at they might be
.
.
civilians
that are military associated.
Wearing white
lab coats.
Strong.
.
.I'm getting
a strong impression.
Let me
think about
it
a minute here.
PAUSE
There's
.
.
.
There's computer type people here.
But
I
don't
.
.
I
don't sense
a very sophisticated
computer
effort.
Its
like first generation
or some-
thing.
Its not like ours.
Its not as sophisticated.
Its what
I
call
a number,
number cruncher.
Lot
of
.
.I'm just getting
a feel for
a lot of open/shut
type arm mechanical gates.
#43.5:
Okay.
What's the role of the military people that
are there?
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8
Approved For Release 2OOO/Oi^0||^BP96-OO788ROOO2OO2OOOO1-8
#19.5:
Political.
I
don't know why
I said that,
but
it's political.
That's... I
guess first word
association
to the question,
Not' something to
do with politics
Trade-off
of some sort.
Cover.
I think the military are .. .the military
are there
for another reason but
...this facility
operates under that cover.
#43.5:
Ok.
Is there anything else that attracts your
attention inside this building?
PAUSE
+20
#19.5:
There's
a shielded room.
Some kind of
a shielded
room
in
the building.
I
see gray,
gray metallic
walls.
I
get
a strong impression
of
power output.
But,
it's not electrical power output.
It's
...
someother frequency
that requires shielding.
I
don't know what
it
is. It's
a grid shielding.
Like cross-hatch wiring, ^cross /fhat^ ‘cabling
or
something
.
#43.5:
Ok.
I want you
to move outside the building now.
Move outside the building.
. .move
a short distance
away
from the building and turn around and look
back at the building,
and tell me how you feel
about the size
of this building.
#19.5:
Trying to... scale it against the fence.
Getting
impression of... perhaps 220 feet
loiig by maybe
80 feet wide.
Fairly large but not anything
excessive,
really.
#43.5:
How tall
is this building?
#19.5:
Taller inside than outside.
One story outside...
story and
a half inside.
#43.5:
Ok.
One last thing #19.5.
I want you
to change
your perspective.
I want you
to change your
perspective.
Go up
in
the air
500 feet
and look
down
at this area and
tell me how
it
looks from
that perspective.
#19.5:
Cluttered.
Get the impression
I'm in
a city.
#43.5:
0k.
Looking down from 500
feet.
. .maintain that
perspective
I want you
to
look away from this
building over
to the east about
200 meters,
and
tell me what you
see.
PAUSE
Approved For Release 2000/08/0|m^M^96-00788R000200200001-8
Approved For Release 2OOO/O8/O^0|^|96-OO788ROOO2OO2OOOO1-8
#19.5:
#43.5:
#19.5:
#43.5:
Some kind of... like some kind of storage tanks.
Not... not your big oil storage or anything,
but
...smaller tanks.
Get
a feeling that there
is...
if
I
got too far east
I'll be in
the water.
Weird feeling.
Tanks look like they're laying on
their sides in
a row and they're inside frame squares.
It's like
if you drew
a square around them.
Ok.
Is there anything else you would like
to add
#19.5?
There's... I think this is either
on the edge or
inside the edge
of
a city.
It's extremely cluttered.
I'm just overwhelmed with all
the things that are
around the building.
There's
just roof tops and
exhaust vents and,
and... tower
type chimneys and
smoke coming from forms
of industrial type buildings,
I
guess.
Uh... roads,
parked vehicles.
Just
a
conglomerate
of things.
Poles,
wires.
I
just
get
that impression.
Ok.
I have no further questions #19.5.
Is there
anything else you want
to say?
#19.5:
No.
#43.5:
Ok.
I want you
to relax now.
Relax.
We'll have
the analyst come
on in if he wants
to,
and we'll
go over this and make some drawings.
Ok?
I'll put this thing on hold for now.
Ok #19.5.
Why don't you
go ahead and start off with
number
1,
there.
#19.5:
Ok.
On page
1.
I
feel... the shape of the building
I
feel like it's changed
a little bit.
At least
I
get the impression
it has to me.
Maybe
I'm getting
a clear picture what
the building looks like.
So
on
page
1, I'll do the building again,
and there's...
there's
a difference
in the... what
I called fencing
before...!
got
a different impression for what
I
called fencing before.
It was really
a strange
change.
Maybe it's just
a gestaltic change
in the
building,
and
I
got the impression that the. ..the
door was like here.
That's not really the scale,
I don't think,
but that's the general impression of
the way
the building changed.
Back here where the
arrow
is. ..I had drawn fence.
So
I'll call
it old
fence location.
I'll show you on dotted likes what
appears
to be now,
to me,
is this kind
of design.
This being ground.
Sort
of
like
a... a gate standing
Approved For Release 2000/08/0(i|qiMDf96-00788R000200200001-8
tCpit
Approved For Release 2000/0
-00788R000200200001 -8
there by itself,
and...
#07:
That's
an elevator here.
Is that correct?
#19.5:
Uh,
this is looking at
it from the
side.
Side
view.
It's that kind of thing.
Just looks like
a... a gate standing there.
I had gotten
a piece
of that before and assumed
it
to be fencing.
That
was probably
an erroneous thought.
There might be
fencing there but... I,
I was getting that impression.
Let me put
a north arrow on this too.
Feeling like
this was north.
Not immediately off the top of the
page for angling off to
the
left,
I think that's...
by virtue of the way we draw on these papers
is
probably why north
is always there,
but... going
inside the building
I
got the impression that you
went through
a door and indoor corridor that went
down into
a
T intersection,
and
there' s.
. .there'
s
something,
ok,
something across the front
of the
door.
It's either
to drop the light level...
deliberately
drop the light level or it's
a blackout
curtain type thing right immediately inside of the
door.
And the
T intersection.
. .this one goes to the
right and there's like a... sort of double doors...
swinging doors,
and then
it goes on down
a little
ways.
About the same distance
to
a door,
and this
way goes down
a little ways and makes
a left like
this
to
a door.
When
I was down in this double
door area... down
in this area
I... all of
a sudden
I
had an impression that... I have to call
an impression
that there was... like an old stype computer type
system back up
in here.
#07:
That's the area circled with the dash
lines.
#19.5:
Yeah.
Right.
I'll right in here.
These are
corridors and this
is old style computer system.
Somewhere
in this area.
I
saw the...
Page
3.
I
saw that circular radio pattern,
and this
time
I
got an impression.
. .like it was... if
I
can
do this justice here... like
I was looking at... at
bow shapes
in
it
Can you
see that?
Does that make
any sense
to you?
You know what
I'm talking about.
Like,
like drooping wires,
ok with poles or something
These are heavier when they're drooping wire.
And...
this might be where
I'm getting. ... I
' m just getting
a really strong impression of .. .like.
. .like this
thing is... if this was an exact perpendicular line
right,
but the... the face orientation of this thing
Approved For Release 2000/08/03JCft|JD^6-00788R000200200001-8
uCBIvCi
Approved For Release 2000/08/“SWT"
0788R000200200001 -8
would
be
20 to
22 degrees north northeast,
ok.
You
know.
. .the plain.
#07:
Do you think this is an antenna?
#19.5:
I
don't... I don't know if it's
an antenna or if it's
a... support for something under
it.
I
don't know
if this
is
a clothes
line.
You know.
I'm just saying
I
get
a real
strong impression that there's some form
of... of collection being done but it's not
a SIGINT
sight.:
It's different kind
of collection.
#07:
This thing you've drawn here... was this result
of
awareness or was this result of imagery that you were
looking at?
Do you have
a feeling about this
...
it
was
other than imagery .... .because you said you had
an impression
a moment ago and
I
#19.5:
Well,
my impressions are sort of
a mixture of both.
Sometimes they're stronger on the imagery side and
sometimes they're not imagery
at all.
It's
just...
words that come into my mind that I have to
say.
#07:
This concept. ..conceptual here or is....
#19.5:
This
is a concept is what I'm trying to say.
This
I feel the pattern,
ok.
These support things with
drooping lines
I would say exist somewhere
on that
target.
The impression
I
get is that the plain or
the face... the facial plain
of this is 20 to
20 degrees
20 to
22 degrees off perpendicular
to the earth's face,
ok.
When
I went up
in the air,
over the target
I
got...
I
got an impression
of looking over
the horizon of
globe,
ok.
I
got the impression that we're somewhere
here. ... .this being the equator,
and that there's a...
what they call the eastern test range that comes down
like this across the equator.
This is the old eastern
test range,
ok.
It doesn't exist anymore.
This dates
back
to when Canaveral was open and operating and
everything,
and that this point on the globe is looking
through the eastern test range.
This being.
. .target.
It's actually looking through the eastern test range.
Do you see what
I'm saying?
Some form of peripheral
collection
of some
sort.
Page
5.
Saw
a room.
Shielded room and
it had... the
shielding was.
. .like.
. .the shielding was like wires.
Just all woven together like this,
and they had about
Approved For Release 2000/08/0
P96-00788R000200200001 -8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07^^fiO®fl|S2iQ788R000200200001 -8
iM-UiO
the same gauge
as... that would be
a cross section.
#07:
Did you get
a feel for the spacing of... for that
grid?
#19.5:
These.
. .these.
. .yeah.
Spacing would be about that,
and they were bronze colored.
That might be overlay,
ok.
Room was fairly
large,
and it was gray.
All
I had seen was
a corner with
a shielding
in
it.
I
sensed alot of power
ip this room,
and it's not
electrical power.
It's like output power of some
other frequency.
Possibly telemetric type output.
I don't
know.
That sort of thing.
#07:
I missed part of
it.
Did he have anything to draw?
I heard you mention something
...to look down there
200 meters east
#19.5:
Oh.
Page
6.
Yeah.
This
is the building over here,
and you went to the east 200 meters.
I
got
an impression
of some kind of storage tanks
layed lend to end on their sides,
and these were like
in boxes or on boxes
or
in frames of some sort.
Might be fencing
or something... something defined as
square around them,
and from those all the way across
here... and down in here
I
got alot of poles and wires.
I got alot
of parking here.
Parking here with vehicles.
I
got.; ... .commercial and military mixed... roof tops
over here,
and
I had
a feeling
if
I went too far
in
this direction,
somewhere
in here was water.
All
water.
If
I went too far to the east
I would fall
in
the water.
#07:
I have no further questions.
#43.5:
0k.
Early
in the session #19.5
, you talked about the
road pattern in the area.
#19.5:
Oh,
yeah.
That's right.
I
don't know what made me
say anything about the road... I
got... I
got this
impression.
. .like.
. .everything about the road... the
patterns of the road were like
Ys.
I'm not really
sure that these are roads.
Just like.
. .all the
interconnecting roads are
Ys.
And
I mentioned
it
because
it was... it was really eye-appealing.
It
might have something to do with the target.
Just call
it ground patterns.
#43.5:
In relationship to all this where was the small
airfield?
Approved For Release 2000/0
96-00788R000200200001 -8
Approved For Release 2000/084
r00788R000200200001-8
#19.5:
Small airfield was. .. .on page
6 was back
in this
direction,
and it was just
a simple strip with
a taxi.
This would be... all my orientation is the same
as the first page.
Guess that's
it unless you got
anymore questions.
#43.5:
You
go|t anymore on the personnel?
Do you want
to
ask any questions
on the personnel?
He saw the
military in paramilitary.
#19.5:
Well
I
call them paramilitary because they're wearing
less than
a uniform,
but very much like
a uniform.
I
just got
a real strong feeling that
it was like
a
cover.
Like the military was..... a political cover,
you know.
Like we would allow some of these military
into our country and we wouldn't really know that
their paramilitary types wereudoing something other
than what we allowed the military
(not audible)
to do.
That sort of thing.
#07:
Did you feel
the military types were doing anything
inside that building now?
#19.5:
Oh,
they were helping,
yes.
Most surely.
#07:
You say they were working
on the same thing
(not
audible)
#19.5:
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.
#07:
Not audible.
#19.5:
Nothing bothered me.
#43.5:
Yeah.
It didn't seem to.
There was an awful lot
of footsteps and walking around,
but didn't seem
to be bothering you too much.
#19.5:
Didn't hear them.
#43.5:
Ok.
Analyst do you have any questions?
#07:
Don't have
any.
#43.5:
Very good.
That'll be
it then.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA7RDP96-00788R000200200001-8
(
»
V
V
r
r
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
:
(
(
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
:
MA-RDP96-00788R000200200001 -8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8 GQuior Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8
(
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07-^QIA-RDP96-00788ROO
(
r
^
.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001-8 - 2) Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200200001 -8 ( ure