Approved For Release 2000/0 §éaiitas #31: #14: #31: #195: #31: #1925: #31: #1953 #31: #1953 #31: #19.53 #31: #195: #31: Aha...okay, along with this you have something about Bs; you said the Bs. No, no, Vs. Vs. Okay, the Vs then. Oh! The Vs; okay, yeah. VY pattern, okay, have something to do with the nose? Yeah. I had a pattern. Let me call it D. Sandwich, sandwich of Vs. Yeah, sandwich of Vs. Okay. Okay, what, what I had was I had, it was like layered Vs; one on top of another. Because I was trying to get inside of this thing to see what it was, and I got an impression of this.....1'1ll show you what I got an impression of here.. I got an impression of.....this kind of thing, in which, now, this is a very thick shield of metal. TI, I kept getting this word shielding going through my mind you know, all the time, armored shielding like, and inside of this were these V patterns......like this. This is like a cross-section, okay, and inside of that was another piece of shielding...this is a lot larger scale than it actually is. . This had Vs...it was like..uh..cardboard! It's almost like layers of cardboard; one on top of the other with like the cardboard honeycomb in between it. It. just kept going like this in sheets and it was. like 5 layers of this....and this, this is a cross-section. Do you have a feel for what part of the object it was? Is that.-«.. The front... The Front? Very definitely the front of the object. Somewhere up in here-see, this,this is looking around the side, okay. I should put that arrow there. It..kind of goes around to the side, and this, this thing here was somewhere up in front. Okay. Approved For Release 2000/08/07¢C{A-K 6S5100722R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 *.Ciz #19 Ds #14: #195: #14: #1953 #31: #1953 #31: #19653 #31: #19253 #31: Approved For Release 2000/08/ 8000200520001 -3 And, I got the feeling that this, this snout, okay was also somewhere up in-like up in here-this area..uh.. front top. And this was, part. of, part of C. Okay. At this time why don't we turn the tape over? Okay. We. are now ready to continue with the debrief. Okay. Page 2. Okay. Let's see, going through the notes sandwich of Vs; one on top of the other to do with the front of the object; hooded window ;shield, but very narrow metal blinders over the top; something to do With NOSGesseeUNesee Kayes okay, then we moved, #14 keyed you to what*.is ‘the principle funetion of the object. Right. Okay. Maybe just some, words would help here to start with. You had this feeling of very powerful..... Yeah. Oh! I got a.eeeee Okay. Okay, I got a picture of a, like a blow up of the point of a needle and it was very shinny and I kept getting recurrent V. white flashes, and I'll show you what the flashes look like. I call this a needle be-I'd seen a blow up of a needle before, and that's what this reminded me of. I'm going to try and get this as best I can here. It. was like looking at the end of a needle or straight pin that's blown up, and in this case it was like polished aluminum or something. It had a...very definitely was reflecting light like offf of it. That kind of thing. And, you could see this, this, like the spun marks in the metal going this way, and then I was getting a..uh.. like a white, a really incandescent white area with a pattern of 4 blue flames coming out like this; and this was pulsing, and..uh..like this, and this kept pulsing. That's the, the power that I was feeling. Okay. Form of power out, and radiating pattern very strong, okay; you said, I see from #14's notes here, you say, I see cement! Uh...but, earlier in the session...the very acquisition phase you had cement or asphalt.
Approved For Release 2000/08/0 . #1953 #31: #19.53 #31: #1953 #31: #1925: #31: 288R000200520001-3 Yeah. That was like a flooring or something. I was giving a quick and dirty of the surroundings of the object. Okay. Right. Okay, then my notes and #14s pick up and say drive like an auto but has no steering wheel. Right. I don't, you know, I don't, it has a dashboard - looks like an automobile, but there's no steering wheel there. No~you know, no column or anything like that. But, the seats, the seats really unique. Here, let me sketch that in, if I can. This will be kind of like from the side. I got an impression of something here; this came around. That would be the dash like. The wrap around dash type affair, and back here would be this « eeeit's like very thick, very thick seat arrangement. It's almost like the seats were armor plated. That kind of affect. They're extremely heavy. And, some kind of controls or something right here. And, this was like dials here, and the ceiling kind of came down like this; came around, and I got a feeling like there was bent vents or something here. And, there was something else that protruded out of here, okay, and it was like one of the, maybe it didn't protrude out of the front itself, but hung down to the side or something. It was like a camera type thing. Some kind of camera type thing. That's literally about it. That was on the left side, and the side piece over here, it was very well paneled with padding type affair. You know. This, this snap in padding. Very heavy padding; almost like insulation seseeeeeand seat belt. Very modern type interior. This is all plating up in here, black. Something like that. I know eeeesmy drawing is lousy. Umm... actually, I'm sitting here rather impressed with it. Ha, ha, ha, it's pretty damn good perspective....... It's very clear, very clear in my mind, you know, when I was watching it. This was like very heavy plate. Almost like it was cut from steel block. Okay. Now, you're talking about what, the, what you're sketching in is the rear of this seat. What is supposed to be the rear of the seat. Yeah, yeah, right. This kind of affect. Okay. When we go back-you've done this in pencil, so when we go back and do this in ink, I would like you to label all those things. Now, I have a couple of questions. 8 Approved For Release sovereeiepaterteteed 00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/ ; #19053 #31: #19.53 #31: #1953 #31: #19653 #31: #1953 #31: #1925: #31: #19 5s #31: #19.5: #31: #1925: #31: 188R000200520001-3 Wait a sec-this is a, a steel wall right there, by the way. That's a steel wall. Okay. Okay. That's a steel wall behind the seat. Yeah. Right. And, this is steel plate up here. Okay. What you're doing now is drawing some lines on the above and apparently forward of the dash. Yeah=of the dash, right. That's very much like what the driver, you know, that whoever's operating this thing by driving, and this right here is some kind of control panel. Okay. And, that's by the, the right arm. That's the knob with the bumpers on it. Yeah, yeah; it's over here too. It's like dual handed controls or something. You have one on the left side then, as well. - Yeah. Okay. All right. And. uh. ee All right. Is there anything more? How about...did you have a feeling for the method by which the person that sits in this seat would move into and out of this seat. Through some kind of a -hatchway, which would be over here. There's a hatch. like.right here. Then, there's another wall then the other guys over here on the right. So---well there's actually more than one hatch to this area. I get a feeling like there's....let me lightly stencil them in here with dotted lines, I got a feeling like there was a hatch here, like in between his position and the cOm-driver.... Okay. So, that you have- you've drawn that's in the foreground on the right side of the left-hand seat. Right. It's, well, it's right next to the seat back. Next to his elbow back? Yeah. Okay. 9 Approved For Release 2000/08 pfonsadda.oh788R000200520001-3
#195: #31: #19.53 #31: #19 5s #31: #195: #31: #19253 #31: #A9.5: #313 #19253 #31: #19. 5: #31: #1953 Approved For Release 2000 , 88R000200520001-3 And, you see it's like, where that wall, that partition here is. See, this wall comes all the way down here like that.ar. Oh, I see, okay. All right. So, it's in the wall. It's in the wall, yeah. Qkay. So it's-in ex--it's a hatch that goes to the rear of the seat, and is located in between..uh..possibly two positions. Right, yeah. Well, I'1l do a little sketch down here. It's very easy. Like you have two seats; this being the dash area, okay, and you have the wall back here, the hatch is here, and then there,s a hatch in the floor, but it's a lot smaller. Like..uh..right here, and then I got a feeling like there's..uh..possibly an overhead hatch, but, it's off-centered someway. Like here. Okay. You know. It would be..uh..up here like this. Okay, okay. About 3 hatches to that compartment. Okay. Now, you just..earlier when we were trying to hatch hash this out here, before you did the overview-the overhead view, you mentioned....something that may be separating the two compartments. Uh..this, this compartment---- Or, did I understand you...-- ..ethis compartment from the other that the other two people are in.. Okay. Okay. Very clearly..uh...«the driver and the co-driver I think are in the same compartment. Looks like a box up forward. Okay. And then to the rear, I get a feeling like to the rear of them, above to the right just a little bit off to the center line of this vehicle is where the other two people are. 296100788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08 8R000200520001-3 #31: Okay. #19.5: This being the, the center line, right here. #31: Okay. Well, good. #19.5: Is that detailed enough? #31: That's...I'1l tell you, that's, that's a work of art. A veritable work of art . #19.5: Okay. What else? #31: Okay, okay. Now, that was in response to the question ..uh..where do the, where are the personnel which operate, where are the personnel located which operate the vehicle. Okay. #19.5: Right. #31: _ Okay.You had them in the boxes or compartments, and you broken the overall object down into consisting: of just what you said, was just two general compartments one forward and low, the other one is up, rear, and to the right. #19.5: Right. One other thing you should be aware of-there are, there are pedals in this thing. #31: Okay. #19.5: Very large, black pedals......+s.++--but it ain't a bicycle, ha, ha. #31: Ha, ha, hae Okay, now, let me just ask you some questions regarding sketch 3 here, overview. $19.53 Aha. #31: Ummm...eis the dash, first of all, we have the compartment as being one entire area, not segmented in any between the two positions, is the dash, as it moves around front, did you have a feeling of it, that it was a one continuous system or was it segmented two identical systems; one for each position. #19.5: No, noe No, no. This, the one on the left is a primary; the one on the right is a secondary or an auxiliary to the one on the left. The one on the right appeared to have everything that the one on the left had, but it, it wasn't really there. It was just a wire assemble; like a wire assembly _off of the main dash. You know. All the dials are there, and all the controls are there, and every thing else, but the guts to it weren't there. It was like Approved For Release 2000/08/QZ: €7 196~-00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08 #195: #31: #19.53 #31 #1953 #31: #195: #31: #195: #31: #1953 #31; #1953 #31: #1953 Approved For Release 2000/08 2252000200520001-3 ~eethe whole...the real controller assembly, you know, the electronics you don't see...it's all on the left- hand. dash, and the guy on the right is just..uh..it's like one of these learn to drive type things. You know.. Okay. .eeewhere the instructor's got all the real controls, and the student's only allowed to use...... He's, he's, he just taps into the same, the main system. So you're saying, essentially, the main control layout is on the left.... It's on the left, right. ...left position, and that the one on the right is just tapped over to the left. It does not have its own unilateral system capable of operating by itself. Yeah ...M0, no, no., and I really, I think that. the one on the right is..uh..is very seldom ever, if it's used at all, very seldom ever used. It'd be an emergency backup like system. . Okay. Probably, possibly a shunt to manual control versus electronics. Okay. All right. Now, moving through here-moving right along, you have, as we said, in my notes though, I'm going back over to catch up. ..front left, primary operator; front right, backup operator; different place for other two. In #14's notes here there is the comment that.... (whistling) primary operator in front left; co-operator in front right... one has his hands on levers or handles and there are three. Uh...no, that's the two guys in the back compartment. Okay. Okay. That's right, that's right. Cause now looking at my notes, I see you have a different place for the other two; you see all four, but you see plates or boxes in between. Right. It's like I was looking through the walls of the boxes or plates, compartments in this...-. Okay. #14 directed you to focus on the other, the other personnel, and what they do. And, that's...-.-all right now in my notes I see that's where one has levers and handles. Right. Right. BRO000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08 #31: #1925: #31: #1953 BROOD 200520001-3 Okay. Let's run a quick through to my notes here, to refresh your memory, Levers, handles, three handles, looks through rubber eye piece like a rubber bulb. Heavy... something, heavy over right shoulder with slots down. the side. Yeah. Let me, let me sketch this because it's going to answer a lot of your questions, I think. Uh...okay... there's a heavy...see if I can get this in perspective now... that..fair job ..the other one is...a heavy block type arrangement with..an additional piece that comes out like this from the side...something like this, and there's like «slike one of those big rubber eye socket type pieces on the-this side, like this. I had the feeling like there was eeetwo slots that came down the side for some reason..-.-- and...the operator...I'm going to...do this...I'll put the seat in here very lightly because the seat will block out most of the view so I'll dot, dot the seat in. This is like the head part of the seat, and the back of the seat, and then this was actually inside of a....very narrow type area. This being the roof of the, the vehicle, and also very padded and then, right up here in front of the seat was like a... like a control panel with a flat section built into the front, and this was a key pad. There's like these double bar type things that come out..this,,,that you rest the heel-your heels of your hands on it so you can lean on it, and still manipulate the keys...and there was like a row, double row of boxes like this, and I said there was like four boxes to a row. And..I just got a feeling like there, there's some kind of an electronics there, you know; IC type of electronics, and I got a feeling like there was a blank here and a screen, and this, this pictographic screen had the capacity of producing more than just a camera type picture. Superimposed of the screen I saw a double...red line that was overlayed and like sitting up over that was a very light circle, and then there was..elike, I got a feeling like this was some kind of a minnie computer of some sort here, and all it had. was an indicator light. Okay. You have. that in the upper left. Upper left. Yeah. I'1l draw arrows to all this stuff. That was blank, and there was some kind of, of: command squares here of some sort, you.know, great buttons glowing green, and blue, and white. Large activator type button here. It was red, and, then, of course, the key pad all different buttons; and over here other forms of electronics like radios and intercoms- and stuff like that... And, this was all like..uh..sitting in front of this seat. Down here there was some kind of a...console type thing that had like a lever: coming out this way.....and ther had double lever: -00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/0¢ we z H#AIS: #31: #1953 #31; #195: #31: #195: #31: #1925: #31: #19 253 #31: #195: #313 Approved For Release 2000/0 . ae P96-00788R000200520001-3 .-this way.... That's the 3. leavers I was. talking about. And, I, I don't know....what that-is.....but, then back over here I get a feeling like there was like hydraulic tubes, copper hydraulic tubes coming down like this..... and some coming out running down the side like this; seoeeeeand, then back in behind this seat, the other guy's seat, was like this........these are also very heavily armored seats...the other guy's seat came back like this. Back here and he had some form of....looks like a switching panel or something up here. But, down here, which is very interesting down here was kind of like a thing that went like this, and it was like....did you ever see the inside of an egg cart? Aha. Looked like rows of eggs, like this. And there was also a lot of, you know, padding up in here; the snap on type padding, snap up type padding. Now, are you putting that in the background? Yeah.It's in the background. And, there was, oh, there was eesseeeesthere was some kind of...-.+.1 don't know how to describe it......almost like a walkway right here..... like, you go down in there, you know, and right here was the, the front wall looking down through this, this flooring like. That's the front wall where the garbage compartment is, okay. His seat was up there like that. Okay. You're sketching that down, and in the corner between the two seats, okay. Yeah.and then there's some other kind of......went like thiseseeeel don't know how to draw this. That's fine. That's fine. Ummm...... Oh! He had a...-ehe had also a vent type hanging up here. Okay. Now, in sketch 4 you're putting that in...forward in the background of the left hand position. Yeah. It's right up over the..uh.. Left on the sketch. Yeah. This, this bent thing is right up over the dash panel that he's got. , Okay. RDHS6-80788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/0046 #3R000200520001-3 #19.5:; Yeah. Something he can look through I guess. #31: Okay. #19.5: There's something else behind this block, but, I couldn't .e1 tell you, I just couldn't get anything out of this block of metal except the grooves. #31: Yeah. Let me ask you a few questions now, since we're finishing up on sketch 4. The..uh..did you have a perception of the function of the egg carton type thing? #19.5: None at all, but I did...I got a feeling after , awhile after looking at this,*this bare, this dash panel up here, okay, that this was some form of a fire control center, okay. #31: Okay. #19.5: Oh! There's something else really strange out it. I s- could swear I could distinctly see a button that said elevation on it. And, I saw, .and then I saw a button that says. .uh..I can't remember what I said it said.. #31: Ummm...eyou said it looked like #t was an abbreviation for elevation. #19.5: Yeah. That-I remember that one, but...pitch and yaw. I saw pitch and yaw which really blew me away, because I wouldn't...this is not a space vehicle, but, you know, that's what I associate it with, but it, it actually said pitch and yaw on these buttons, you know. These gray buttons. #31: Aha, and do you have a feeling from where those buttons were? #19.5: Yeah. Right up here on the key pad. #31: Okay. So, that's in front of the left hand position, on the key pad, there. #31: Okay. Let me whip through my notes here, before we discard or move on to the next session-next..uh..sketch. #19.5: Okay. #31: Okay. (Garbled)see grooves..can't tell if inside or outside ..side mounted tubes; small like hydraulic shocks on a car banded together coming out at right angles from the block thing. mi pinte 7” 4a a -EF fre Approved For Release 2000/08/07. B8R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08 AzeimbebiaitieAiaA OLS Se AAO? 00520001-3 #19.5: Yeah. Okay. That's-I'm going to have to draw this separate without screwing up that picture there. #31; Okay, well, all right, well, let's see if we can still do something with 4. #19.5: Okay. #31: Everything looks padded, soft fibrous padding packages. Now, I.picked up on the intercom that you had the 4 inch by 8 inches faces 4 to a stack, two stacks. Is that- #19.5: That's right there. That's in... #31: Okay. That's on the right side of the- #19.5:  -of the console panel. #31: --panel, panel. Got © something looks like a..uh.. oscilloscope or TV screen- #19.5: Yeah. That's right in center of the panel. #31: Okay.. Now, later on in the session when we had you move back to that panel you said that what-you discussed what it was that you perceived viewing in that screen or on that oscilloscope- #19.5: Aha, that's what I was going to draw next. #31: Okay. Why. don't. you do that? #19.5: Okay. I'll do that before I do-do you want me to do the shock absorbers looking things first? Or do you want me to do that first? #31: Why don't you do the screen type of latch up first. #31: Okay.. What I-perceived....on the screen, I keep wanting to say it's a...picture, and I did get vivid pictures... of tanks, mock-ups, concrete structures, armored vehicles. You know. Like up on a rise or hill or next to a bluff. I was getting this flashing images but I also got other things like infra-red images, and things that were really strange. I got .the in-like the infra-red image IT got looked like this. It looked like the screen was divided in half. The bottom half being dark, and then the upper half was like a...tank vehicle, but it was built like with blocks, okay. Like all different blocks of-things like this. Like one of these computer games, okay. That kind FPSETN788R000200520001-3 a Approved For Release 2000/ ta :
Approved For Release 2000/08), #1953 #31: #19253 #31: #19253 #31: #19 5: #31: #19.5% #31: #1953 #31: #1953 #31: Approved For Release 200 R000200520001-3 of thing. “It was built like out of blocks, squares. Okay. And, there was a-they were colored squares, okay, and like these squares here would be red, and these squares here would be...blue, and the rest of it would be like green, and then lay-overlaying on that was a cross-hatch red line inter- sected, like this; these were moveable, these would go left and right....up and down, and then superimposed over that was a very light circle, and it wasn't a perfect circle. It was like an oval-egg shaped oval, and that, it would also move sideways, and up and down, and that's what I perceived like infra-red. Okay. But, did the oval move independent of---- Independent.of the cross here lines, the intersecting cross here lines. Okay, all right. Okay. That's sketch 5. And, the, the other pictures were clear, precise, like camera photos, you know. Like a camera looking through a TV monitor or something. Okay. All right. Did you have any other type of feelings associated with this....screen? You've discussed two different types but you said like and other things. I just wanted to make sure , did you have any other peculiar... Yeah, I got,. 1 got brief glimpses of pronounced, you know, superimposed numerics, letters and white, white, :you- know, like computer printout, and I'm not sure, they were coming so quick, I'm not sure if they were actually superimposed over the pictures or if they were just there alone without the pictures being there. You know. Like a multi-purpose screen. Aha. That's... Okay. Why don't we label 5 here with the....uh...well we can do that later. That's all right. We're going to all of 'em later, anyway. Go back through and label (garbled) Label ‘em, yeah. Okay, so, now for sketch 6. 5:00788R000200520001-3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 * $19.53 #31: #1925: #31: #19.5s #31: #1953 #31: #1953 #31: 19.53 #31: #19 53 #31: Approved For Release 2000/08/07 - € CIARD -Now you want the shock absorbers? Yes. Now, the things associated with da, da, da, da, da, umMseeeeel had it here..<.. Big block. Side mounted tubes, small like hydraulic shocks on a car, banded together, coming out at right angles from the bla~block thing; not the black thing, the block thing. Well, there was a...okay, there was Like: a.piece that came out like this....and fastened to this were the, these large hydraulic, not large. They were actually very small when compared to the block itself.. uh..like this, and these went up into a.........up into some kind of as... I don't know what to call it. I. call it banded together, because it looked like it was a band that went like this around these. This kind of affect. Like they held them in place, you know. And, there was some black form here, and this was like some kind of sealant of some kind. -Just like real heavy duty shocks. I don't know what, what this (garbled) and the same time I got a, I got this pattern. Now, you're familiar with this pattern. So, when I get it it's usually a jar top or something a concentric circle pattern like this. Usually means a jar top, some kind of screw top. I was getting that superimposed on the black -the back of the block. Okay. All. right. Now, this is, am I correct when I ask that this block that you have drawn, is that block which is located sort of overhead and to the right, in sketch 4? Yes, yes. In the center of sketch 4, Right the only reason why I didn't draw this on sketch 4 is it would have messed up the whole perspective of....» Sure, sure, okay. Oh, forgot my grooves down the sides. Da, da, da.... (garbled) right angle to the side of the block everything's got (garbled) small packages..... Okay. Okay. 18 wad p6 -00788R000200520001-3 =a ix aI net
Approved For Release 2000/08/ ePISPS8R000200520001-3 #31: Okay. Going through: the notes, let me see, we did that.. okay, well, that's about it. I, the only thing left other than this hydraulic thing, shock absorber type thing that you're talking about....you had..umm secondary backup power systems... . #19.5: Yeah, just your standard Wénted black metal boxes sitting on the floors, you know, bolted behind the seats in various sundried places. #31: Okay. Man-manual override systems for computer..... #19.5: Right. That's what I think those levers were...some kind of a manual override system. #31: Okay. Small black box with only an on light. That's on the sketch, okay, I think. #19.5: Right. #31: You had this feeling of cassette systems load. into. shock absorbing padded..... #19.5: Yeah, no, it's, I had like a, I got an impression of some kind of a cassette insert type thing on this panel. 1 don't know what it was. You know. It's like when you want to give pre-commands of something you would just load it in with a cassette. Rather than wasting your time talking to this machine all day. #31: Okay. And you had the feeling that it could access up to 3 target at one time. #19.5: Yeah. The guy sitting in that seat could access, 3 targets. He may be only firing on one, but he could be accessing 3 at the same time. #31: Okay. Well, that's it. Before we go back over and, and well, we'll do the sketches in black ink and label, make the appropriate labels and everything, which I'll walk through you with...youhave anything more you want to add regarding the target object? #19.5: Nope. That's-all. #31: Your feelings about it. #19.5: It's some kind of a fire control vehicle. It's very well armored and very modern and very potent. Other than that, no, I don't have anything to add....e.eeee50, we'll end then. Approved For Release 2000/08/0 R000200520001-3
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