#66: #07: #07: #31: were also supported. I felt these balls were adjacent to a large, open area where the photo of the tank was taken. I'll call this area, this, this A, and I want to make another drawing here that, of what I remember, test areas for tanks or tracked vehicles looking like, and, as I remember there used to be a lot of areas laid out like this. And the vehicles would run down one track and come back down the other one. And there would be several of these, they would be all tracked up with tracks where they were going through alot of mud and what-have~you. All these scratchy lines are tank tracks. The area in the middle except for an occasional track going across it weren't nearly as chopped up as that and I']1 call that B, that's the way I remember it. This area looked like a very- Now we're going to C, which is like your imagery from the session. Yeah, my imagery from the session. But like a very large area something like that, and this vehicle appeared to be going right across, right through the middle of it. Now there was a lot of stuff chopped around here, as though, and this was kind of uphill and downhill and what—have-you as though more vehicles had been going around out here. By the way, I thought. the balls were up in this vicinity here. Yeah, I thought there were some, some trees, evergreen, somewhere in the vicinity of this thing, but I can't remember exactly where they were. A lot of tracks across this thing here, and the tank was running right along in this position, from the pos tion of the arrow, that'd be C. It just didn't look like this regular dress, right dress pattern that I had seen years ago of, like the area in B. Okay. Relative to C there, did you have any feeling for the location of the picture, where the picture, where the action, you, later on in the session you did have a feeling that you had seen the guy taking the picture.- I was wonder— ing if you had a feel for where that was. The tank was about in the position of the X, and the guy was somewhere inside this area, I thought from this direction. photo, in here. I looked for:a fence or something that would restrict his presence, I just naturally assumed that I guess the thing was taken by an agent or something, you naturally assume something like that. And I'm surprised to find that the person that we're looking over the back of, taking the photo didn't appear to be under any great pressure or strain I: just assumed from that, that it was a local who wasn't under a good deal of pressure. All right, now, we got the, that's the, that's our blowout y) Approved For Release 2000/08/07-:: CIA-RBP96-Q0788R000200480001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08/0 #31: 80480001-8 the test thing. Now, uh, #66 had you go, what we can do for this sketch is we can do both of them. Twice during the session #66 had you go to about a 100 nautical mile altitide and describe in terms of geography. Now, the first: part of that is where this place was, the test, or whatever, area where the vehicle actually was, and then the other time was after we, he, had gotten you to the final assembly point, then he had you move again and get an aerial. And there's a relationship apparently between the large city and, where the place was finally assembled and where this testing area was, so why don't, for sketch two, why don't we just put all that. together. Yeah, I can't get mountains and streams and stuff No, no, no, I, in the — you know. I think the construction site was, uh, let's call this point A, that's where the track is, and, uh, B, and let's see, north. That any good? Okay, B is where it was assembled, A is where it was at time, at the beginning of this session, time the photo was taken. What's the city? Did you mention a name for that? Yeah, I did, I didn't want to, I didn't know why, I didn't know why I didn't want to, and I didn't know why it kept bothering, but, uh, for some reason I thought it was Moscow. Okay, yeah, we need this since it's on that, too- You had, let me see, uh, ~- -— = Oh, I think this was about 60, these are approximates, my estimates, I'm looking. Okay» Let's see, it was 60 miles. Thirty-five, thirty miles. Yeah, okay, about thirty miles to the northeast from where you were before, that's site B, that's the factory. Whatever. Okay, we can move on to three. You had a, three is the final assembly point, okay, which isBon sketch two . You had ay you felt you were near the city, about 30 miles to the north~ east of where you were earlier, big factory complex, about 30 miles southeast of the big city. Did you have any~ well, you did have imagery out of there, now that I think about it. You were in a building, let me see, inside a foundry—like building, stacks outside, stacks, yeah, not final assembly , something peculiar about the tracks, cold and grey outside, three is the tank, #66 asked you, and you said it's over there, without tracks on it. Approved For Release 2000/08/07 »ClA-RDBS o.00 £S8RG00200480001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08/0 #07: #31: #07: #31: #07: #31: #07: #07: It was to the north of where the foundry building was, to the northwest of where the foundry building was. I don't know how far, it wasn't very far. Okay. Did you get any imagery out of that building, foundry building area there — What did you say, boundary or foundry? Foundry, you said, yeah. In fact, yeah, you called it a foundry, right. Uh, I saw some kind of casting going on. Uh, how about in that area, overview of that area, did you have anything like that? I think I saw that like looking at a map, really positions rather than ary imaging detail, uh, from about 40-50 feet up I looked across the tops and I saw grey dingy dirty buildings with soot and smoke, the filth of many years on them, uh, like, like a steel mill. Some big stacks, and there wasn't much going on, I, I mean I saw a few people, but it was quiet, I think it was probably night, I don't know. Then I got a close-up of track, vehicle track, I don't know who it belonged to, I assume it belonged to this vehicle, and I kept looking at it and noticing that there was something unusual or peculiar about it, and I wouldn't know if there was some- thing peculiar about a track if I fell over it. But I felt there was something important about it, and I thought is was about the center of the track, you know, halfway from side to side, something intermittent down through there, I, I don't know what it was, it was round, roundish. I had a question and I, I guess I went to look for the tank then.’ I ‘saw it sitting there, with tracks laid out on the ground. Sitting on top of tracks, but they were flopped out on the ground, on the pavement. Where was the round peculiarity? Was it on the inside of the track circumference, or was it on the outside of the track, as it was in a circumference? Do you recall? Well, it was up on the side, it was up, I just assumed it was on the inside. On the inside, like in where the bogie and the road wheels were? Okay, that's what I wondered, if it was outside or inside. PAUSE I thought there was something, normally you'd expect something 0001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08 #07: . like cleats or something, but there was something round, had .& roundish shape to it, and I know you hear there's some kind of cleats like things, you know, it makes this thing in, some~ where. Something about the middle was roundish, and I thought the top end of it almost, looking straight down, it looked almost round.in this direction, as well as having full round-— ness in the vertical direction. I don't. know. PAUSE #31: Get one to label that as, call it the interior or the track, or- - PAUSE #07: I don't think, that*s not the outside of the trail. #31: Okay. #O7: It could be just smooth. Was there anything else that, ume .. you want 'em to hear? #31: No. #07: While we're discussing this? #31: No, that's fine. PAUSE #31: Okay. All right, uh, at the end of the session, something funny about taking the photo, you said did not feel tension of pressure as though they could take the photo again if they wanted to, or had to. When you had the feeling the guy devel-~ oping the film was not rushed, wearing rubber smock, and that type of thing. The guy who took the photo you had the feeling was sort of full cap, dark loose wool, dark jacket, not a suit but like a work jacket. And then at the final session after the free flow the last statement you said was that the origin of the photo is = did you say known? #07: Yeah. #31: Okay. Okay. Do you have any idea? #07: Oh, I don't know who the hell knows. #31: Yeah, I know but I wondered if you might have something further you'd like to add? #07: I know that's a broad, funny statement after I hear the dang thing, but, uh. . . I would assume that oft time you know, you come in session imagery that you really don't know where it Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA-RDP96-00788R000200480001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CIA REP oePOePOONOGA?00480001-8 #07: #31: #07: #31: ofiginated, but you're glad to get it. We know where this one originated. That is my feeling. Oh, I don't, you don't, I don't know. Yeah, I know what you mean. But, uh. . .« the people that need to know, know where it came from. Would you like to add anything further about the, uh, the developing guy in the, picture—taking guy- Uh, no, I tried to, looking at him I trhed to find any way in the world to recognize him, to identify him, who is this, where is he-uh, it made me realize that something was wrong, you know, if a person were trying to sneak into an area he wasn't supposed to be in, taking pictures like this, the tension would be high, the excitement would be high. I felt none of that excitement, and solely on that basis, I assume that the guy either really knows his way around here, he's extremely comfortable, or he's local, and has permission to be there. That was just a feeling, just from observing the individual. All right. Well, I don't have any further questions. Do you have anything further you'd like to add? No, that's all I have. rr Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000200480001-8