Deletion of List of crimes committed in the United States by illegal aliens

Comment: Meets . I&nbsp;don't see any convincing argument&nbsp;to justify deletion other than the usual run-of-the-mill  arguments which counts for nothing
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:LISTN||WP:ATA)

Comment: Notable topic. Passes . Sources such as ''The New York Times'' and ''The Washington Post'' are fine. Is it the widely used term "illegal alien" that some people dislike? Perhaps a case of . The legal system in the United States has used the term "illegal alien", even if some people may be sensitive about the term. At , it states: ''Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive‍.  Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia''. I'm sure that out of the 5 million or so articles on Wikipedia, there would be some I dislike, but an encyclopedia provides content and information to people and this article passes notability guidelines
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:GNG||WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT||WP:NOTCENSORED)

Comment: On a purely technical level, the list's notability criteria is non-existent. Is it purely just for violent crime? On a moral level, the list is nothing more than hate speech. It would be along the same lines as having a "List of crimes committed in Germany by Jews." In other words, it is functioning as a soapbox (and recruitment tool) for xenophobes in the United States. Therefore, delete per 
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not (WP:SOAP)

Comment: The title almost satisfies CSD G10, and per nom, a clear POV fork. Since the creator is clearly trying to , I'd say '''salt the earth''' as well
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point (WP:POINT)

Comment: because '''notability is based on the group''' and not the individual list items, per our |notability guideline for stand-alone lists, : "{{tq|Notability of lists (whether titled as "List of Xs" or "Xs") is based on the group.}}" In this case, while the individual crimes may be notable, '''the group "crimes committed by illegals" is ''not'' notable''' (|reliable sources do not publish a ''list of crimes committed by illegal immigrants''), and therefore, this should not be a stand-alone list. For us to compile such a list when no RSes compile such a list would be |original research. (Unlike a list of terrorist attacks, which many RSes have published.) When Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 January 24#Category:Crimes committed by illegal immigrants|the category was deleted, editors !voted delete based on |SYNTH and |POV (which others have covered above). Same at Talk:Illegal immigration to the United States and crime#RFC on including an embedded list of crimes committed by illegal immigrants in the U.S.|the ongoing RfC for the embedded list. Same here. '''I hope !keeps will reconsider''' that all the sources are for individual list items (and look how short it is btw), and there are no RSes for the list as a group. Delete, it's POV SYNTH that fails to meet our LISTN notability guideline
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:N||WP:LISTN||WP:RS||WP:OR||WP:SYNTH||WP:POV)

Comment: with no prejudice against a second nomination if a non-trivial number of the blue-links are deleted.  This meets my  criteria - it contains blue links, is a grouping often used in "the media" to describe many of the events, and those events aren't on other  pages.  Whether those pages are notable events or not is a different question.  All murders are tragic, but not all are notable.  If a contributor feels that all murders committed by Illegal immigration to the United States|illegal immigrants are notable because they are committed by illegal immigrants, they will likely be rebuked for a  violation.  The various problems with news coverage on Wikipedia are prominent here
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists (WP:SAL||WP:SAL||WP:POV)

Comment: WP:POVFORK from original article; and clear  issues, since this combines two categories with a clear intent to push a particular conclusion.  Wikipedia lists aren't the place to hash out arguments about immigration
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:No original research (WP:SYNTH)

Comment: It is simply a list, we have plenty of other similar lists see Category:Lists of criminals (not sure how to link to that). The criteria for inclusion on this list can be debated elsewhere. The delete arguments are based on , presumably to promote a political narrative that illegal immigrants do not commit crimes
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions (WP:IDONTLIKEIT)

Comment: This list was created after the article creator failed to get approval to fill several immigration-related articles with similar anecdotal content (e.g. "illegal immigrants XYZ committed grotesque murders"), had his category "Crimes committed by illegal immigrants"https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_January_24&oldid=883434358#Category:Crimes_committed_by_illegal_immigrants deleted, and created the dubious Illegal immigration to the United States and crime for the sole reason to list these individual crimes (though the list within the article was eventually removed)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States_and_crime. The editor has in the past recognized that the academic research on the topic of crime and illegal immigration disagrees with himhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States&diff=879882154&oldid=879881436, and the desire to highlight individual crimes by illegal immigrants seems intended to give the false impression that illegal immigrants are particularly crime-prone. Lastly, "illegal alien" is a pejorative and fails . Wikipedia is not Breitbart, and the desire to introduce the equivalent of Breitbart's "Black crime" categoryhttps://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/16/magazine/breitbart-alt-right-steve-bannon.html should be frowned upon considerably. If this article is OKayed, it'll be propagated by every white supremacist, racist and immigration hardliner on forums and in social media to give the appearance that illegal immigrants are particularly crime-prone (even though the research on the subject completely debunks that notion). It is utterly beyond me how editors can claim there is no NPOV problem here. I eagerly anticipate "List of crimes by African-Americans" and "List of gang rapes by Muslims" now that some Wikipedia editors want to open this pandora's box of , and allow this website to corrupt public discourse and perception in this way. It is no coincidence that this list mirrors the Trump administration's Victims of Immigration Crime Engagement initiative, the sole purpose of which was to race-bait and scapegoat illegal immigrants by highlighting all the grotesque crimes committed by individual illegal immigrants
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (WP:LABEL)

Comment: I agree with others that subject is notable and it meets . All listed links are blue link articles as well. Don't see any indication of bias here
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:GNG)

Comment: The article Illegal immigration to the United States and crime already covers the topic. This list seems to push an incorrect agenda that is fairly discussed in the article. With incorrect I mean at the more legitimate statistics or generalization level. Wikipedia should not shy away from a little controversy. If the list was only politically incorrect – and not also factually misleading – I'd keep it per , , and  as *errenousely* brought as a reason for keep above and below
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions (WP:IDONTLIKEIT||WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT||WP:NOTCENSORED)

Comment: i would be more comfortable with this list if it included |references that discussed/covered these crimes as a group (of course, not necessarily all of them), in line with 
Stance: comment
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Reliable sources (WP:RS||WP:LISTN)

Comment: This user is the creator of this page, and this page is part of a  series of page creations from them recently. Their !vote should be considered in that context
Stance: comment
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point (WP:POINTY)

Comment: I can’t think of any reason for this article other than pushing a POV denigrating a body of people that many have been led to believe are primarily of a particular race. 
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Content forking (WP:POVFORK)

Comment: I understand this is a controversial subject and I want to tread lightly. I consulted the appropriate policy, , and I don't see anything to suggest that the list be deleted. As long as each entry is properly cited to address BLP concerns, I don't see a policy reason for this to go. I don't think the topic is inherently so POV that it must be deleted on those grounds
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists (WP:SAL)

Comment: salt''', and sanction the editor from creating more of these y monstrosities. —&nbsp
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point (WP:POINT)

Comment: WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument.   We have a page on this subject that KEPT at a recent AfD. More to the point, we have a substantial number of bluelinked crimes committed by persons in a specific legally defined category, which makes creating a list 
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means (WP:COMMON)

Comment: the list is merely a recap of a bunch of blue-linked articles that already exist.  It is  on Wikipedia to have such lists.  It would be quite the NPOV violation to exclude out on lists of unpalatable subjects.  The nomination ought to be withdrawn on the simple grounds that "individual incidents to give the impression of a trend contradicting" is one of the clearest case of  arguments ever seen on the 'pedia
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means (WP:COMMON||WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT)

Comment: as this is the latest one in a series of inexcusable POV-pushing attempts by User:E.M.Gregory. EMG tried to insert the same material to Illegal immigration to the United States, got rejected, opened up a  Illegal immigration to the United States and crime, got their POV list removed, Talk:Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States_and_crime#RFC_on_including_an_embedded_list_of_crimes_committed_by_illegal_immigrants_in_the_U.S.|opened up a RfC for the same material yet again, saw consensus went against them and here we are, a second POV fork in 14 days. Since EMG has demonstrated that they're |incapable of listening other editors, I propose we go to ANI for this kind of disruption
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Content forking (WP:POVFORK||WP:IDHT)

Comment: While many of us may  that this is a notable topic - crimes by illegal aliens are clearly discussed by the news media - and heck the President of the US - as a set. This is not a , as this content does not appear in the parent article (and perhaps it shouldn't). The article amply meets  / . There may be scope for a merge to the parent article - but not on notability grounds (based on editorial discretion on whether the list should be separate from the article).  is a thing too - even for topics we don't like. "Illegal alien" is a legal term - there may be scope to change the title to "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented immigrant" - which all mean basically the same thing - but that's for a move discussion, not deletion
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions (WP:IDONTLIKE||WP:POVFORK||WP:LISTPEOPLE||WP:LISTCRITERIA||WP:NOTCENSORED)

Comment: per  & , along with  concerns. The edit history shows edit warring by the article creator to introduce material on individuals who have not been convicted. The page appears to be an example of using Wikipedia for political advocacy
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:No original research (WP:SYNTH||WP:POV||WP:BLP)

Comment: Article meets  and . It meets  just like https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_crimes_committed_in_the_United_States_by_illegal_aliens&diff=885240521&oldid=885239901 similar list articles in existence and is supported by s
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:GNG||WP:STANDALONE||WP:NPOV||WP:RS)

Comment: Pretty clear , ,  issues here
Stance: delete
Cited policy: Wikipedia:No original research (WP:SYNTH||WP:N||WP:POV)