Deletion of Penn Singers

Comment: Existence is not notability.'' That's true; being, as the Penn Singers are, the "subject of multiple, non-trivial, reliable published works, whose sources are independent of the subject itself" is |notability
Stance: comment
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:N)

Comment: per Edison.  Topic appears to meet the primary notability criterion, which is "subject of multiple, non-trivial, reliable published works, whose sources are independent of the subject itself." I have yet to see anything in  or other notability guidelines that says college newspapers are unsuitable for determining notability.  This is brought up all the time at Wikipedia_talk:Notability|the  talk page and I haven't seen a consensus that school newspapers should be discounted for notability; note Wikipedia_talk:Notability/Archive_7#School_newspapers, for example
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:N)

Comment: or if the consensus is not to keep, ''Merge'' to an article on the University.  The group has been the primary subject of over 20 articles since 1990 in the campus newspaper, the Daily Pennsylvanian, per http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/home/index.cfm?q=%22penn+singers%22&event=displaySearchResults&buttonPushed=1&sa=Search&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&hl=en. TheDaily Pennsylvanian is a respected, award winning, independent campus newspaper, published since 1885, with an editorial review board and a policy of edittorial review of stories, which are written by identified reporters. As such, it is not excluded as a reliable source. (See ongoing discussion of campus newspapers at .) This establishes verification if any of these articles were added to the article, and shows that they are notable at least within their local community, the university, as much as a town arts group would have verification and local attestation of notability with 20 stories in the noncampus town paper or the local TV station. For a campus arts group (there are 45 at Penn, and I certainly do not advocate articles for every one of them) I would like in addition to see 1 or 2 noncampus reliable, independent and verifiable sources showing that they have more than a local notability. the same as if they were off-campus. If they have only local notability, then per  the key facts in the article could be greatly condensed and included in the University's article. Saying "delete because it's just a bunch of students" completely fails as an argument for deletion, because it's just the "IDONTLIKEIT" argument
Stance: keep
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Reliable sources (WP:RS||WP:LOCAL)

Comment: Contrary to what Sslivers claims, there is absolutely no statement in  or that campus groups are inherently non-notable. They must be judged on their own merits the same as an off-campus musical group. Argue on the merits of the case, not by appeals to nonexistant stipulations in guidelines or proposed guidelines.  just expresses the views of several editors, and just a guideline.  has less authority, and is just a proposal. WP:V and WP:RS are satisfied, in my view, by the 20 articles listed above. To satisfy WP:N, I would like to see sources in addition to the campus paper, as I said
Stance: comment
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:MUS||WP:ORG)

Comment: I do not agree that a lengthy story about a group or a review of a performance is somehow more inherently trivial, unreliable, or dependent because it is in a campus paper than if it were in a comparable small town paper, or if it were on an online site devoted to TV shows, rock music, videogames, porn, or other subjects of articles in Wikipedia. It is very fair to argue that the reliable, verifiable and independent coverage still does not show that their notability rises to the level of encyclopedic importance to meet , but it is not necessary to go the the extent of casting aspersions on or mischaracterizing the source. We have thousands of articles about rock/pop/rap bands which lack even that, and rely on only online coverage and their own websites, and editors seem comfortable keeping those. I just look for the fair treatment of campus papers as a source, howbeit a local one, and a fair judgnment of the notability of campus or community performing arts groups vis a vis teen bands, videogame "athletes," videogame characters, or other entities more appealing to editors of Wikipedia
Stance: comment
Cited policy: Wikipedia:Notability (WP:N)