But where you get involved in financial services, banks may view you as something different. For example, we have an interest in debt swaps. There are plenty of Chinese companies that owe money to a lot of people, but don't have the money to pay them back. What they do have are products such as steel, copper, et cetera, that we may be able to take in settlement of debt. That kind of business we can work with the bank.
Counter trade is another possibility.
But again, we are looking more at arranging than actual financing. Before Fortis, I worked with Mees Pierson Bank for 15 years. It was a specialized bank for the commodity and raw materials industry. Then Fortis, which already owns five other banks, bought Mees Pierson. Over the last years that I was there, they were doing more plain vanilla lending than trying to specialize in commodities.