Document ID: EPA-HQ-OPP-2005-0124-0115
Agency: epa
Document Type: Supporting & Related Material
Title: 
Posted Date: 2007-06-29T04:00Z

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

                          OFFICE OF PESTICIDES PROGRAMS

                        EPA FUMIGANTS STAKEHOLDER MEETING

                               Fort Myers, Florida

                            Wednesday, June 06, 2007


                                                             2

          1                   P R O C E E D I N G S

          2              THE MODERATOR:  I'm ready.  I have

          3    a stick and a timer, and you all have four

          4    minutes.  When you've used up three of your

          5    four minutes, I'm going to stand up.  I'm

          6    going to get more and more aggressive as you

          7    work into that minute of your time.

          8              So by the time I get over here and

          9    your four minutes is up, your microphone is

         10    getting switched off.  I am not kidding about

         11    four minutes.  We have a lot of people who

         12    want to get a statement verbally in, and so

         13    everybody gets a chance to do that.  We

         14    really need to stick to that time frame.

         15              Everybody signed up to give

         16    comment, have you picked up a number?

         17    Anybody not got a number?  So if you don't

         18    have a number, I'm not going to listen to

         19    you.  Neither is anybody else in here.  So if

         20    you want to get a number, you need to go out

         21    and get it now.  Anybody?  You have the next

         22    20 minutes to go and sign up, sign your name

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          1    on a piece of paper and get a number.

          2              After that, only people with

          3    numbers are going to be able to speak for the

          4    rest of the afternoon.  So if you think you

          5    might want to talk, you might want to go get

          6    yourself a number.  Everybody clear on the

          7    number situation?  I mean, I want a number.

          8              All right, so with that we've got a

          9    few opening comments to start this off, and

         10    then we'll start with number one.

         11              SPEAKER:  Thanks.  Before we get

         12    started, just wanted to repeat a couple of

         13    points from this morning.  We gave an

         14    overview of all the risk management options

         15    the EPA is considering to reduce acute

         16    inhalation risks.

         17              And as you can see here on the

         18    slide, we described two general types of

         19    options that are summarized here.  Again, in

         20    the left column are options that directly

         21    reduce risks, given current practices.  And

         22    in the right column are options that John

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          1    Leahy covered.  And they don't directly

          2    reduce risk, but they ensure safety, enhance

          3    compliance and enforcement.

          4              The way we originally set this up

          5    was to have this session here to talk about

          6    the first set.  Then the next session was

          7    going to be on the second set of options.

          8    And then we were going to have an open

          9    session.

         10              But I think we're going to change

         11    it a little bit and allow you to, kind of, do

         12    the comments as you like.  But we wanted to

         13    bring up a couple of points about the

         14    different options.  So for the direct risks,

         15    please refer to your fact sheet handout.

         16              And on that handout we have

         17    included some general questions on

         18    effectiveness, feasibility, and potential

         19    impacts of the options that we're

         20    considering.

         21              And many of the options have

         22    specific questions.  For example, some of the

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          1    questions focus on the impacts of buffer

          2    zones.  And we're interested in hearing what

          3    emission control might just work well in

          4    Florida and in the southeast.

          5              Our goal is to keep fumigants in

          6    the soil to do their work.  Reducing the rate

          7    and the amount of the fumigant emitted can

          8    improve both pest control efficacy and

          9    minimize bystander risk.

         10              We're interested in hearing your

         11    comments on different emission control

         12    methods in terms of what's being used,

         13    advantages, and disadvantages, and data that

         14    may measure emission reduction.

         15              We'd like to hear your comments on

         16    other emission control methods that we are

         17    not aware of, such as alternate application

         18    methods, and use of other equipment that

         19    we're not aware of.

         20              We're also very interested in

         21    hearing comments on options that focus on

         22    occupation exposure, such as the use of

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          1    respirators, tarp-cutting removal procedures,

          2    and entry-restricted periods.

          3              And John Leahy has a couple of

          4    points to mention about the second set of

          5    options.

          6              MR. LEAHY:  Thanks, Steve.  Yeah,

          7    just to kind of remind you, the second set of

          8    options, those are the ones that ensure

          9    safety and help enhance compliance and

         10    enforcement.

         11              So comments and your perspectives,

         12    that would be really helpful to us on

         13    fumigant management plans, their

         14    effectiveness, especially for planning and

         15    aiding in compliance and enforcement.  Also

         16    comments on certification of FMPs, the

         17    practicality of self certification or

         18    third-party certification.

         19              Comments on identifying responsible

         20    parties, an individual who would be in charge

         21    of making sure of label compliance from the

         22    beginning to the end of the whole process.

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          1              Notification to bystanders about

          2    fumigations, especially where buffer zones

          3    are in effect and when, and how communication

          4    is best achieved between grower, a fumigator,

          5    and the neighbors.  Also comments and

          6    thoughts on posting what would be effective

          7    and how to make that work.

          8              Also good agricultural practices,

          9    what practices you may use to make sure that

         10    your fumigations are effective and result in

         11    little off-site movement of the fumigant.

         12              And then, something we didn't talk

         13    much about this morning, but a stewardship

         14    program.  Some of the registrants have fairly

         15    comprehensive stewardship programs, training

         16    fumigators.

         17              Also some of the registrants

         18    actually inspect and give feedback on

         19    application equipment.  So any thoughts and

         20    suggestions on where registrants may be able

         21    to play a role in helping to make sure that

         22    fumigations are safe, possibly assisting with

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          1    site plans or fumigant management plans,

          2    those kind of questions and comments would be

          3    very helpful to us.  So I think with that

          4    we'll start taking your comments.

          5              THE MODERATOR:  All right, so

          6    number one has already stepped down, and will

          7    not be speaking.  Number two, if you could

          8    please come up and introduce yourself and say

          9    who you're representing.  I'm not that mean.

         10    Maybe I'll start your time after you

         11    introduce yourself.

         12              MR. GRAINGER:  I'm Jim Grainger

         13    with Grainger Farms.  I raise tomatoes on the

         14    west coast of Florida, fourth generation

         15    farmer.  First of all, I want to thank you

         16    guys for allowing us to come today.  Few

         17    comments I got, one being on the buffer zone.

         18    You know, development in the State of Florida

         19    is something we're going to deal with always.

         20    It's not going to be here today and gone

         21    tomorrow.  The gentlemen pointed out earlier,

         22    you know, some of these farms have been here

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          1    for years, some a 100 years in the state of

          2    Florida.

          3              And to ask a farmer that's passed

          4    his farm down to generation after generation,

          5    to have a setback or a buffer zone when

          6    development is moving in, I think some

          7    consideration should be given to the

          8    developer and ask them to have a setback.

          9              As far as the, you know, the

         10    safety, most of our companies -- and I speak

         11    on behalf of some of the other growers that

         12    might not be here today -- we have safety

         13    programs where we're constantly training our

         14    people on a weekly basis, whether it be in

         15    fumigants or anything going on in our farms

         16    today.  And we're always looking for new

         17    data, new information to make our

         18    establishments a much safer workplace for our

         19    people.

         20              And my last comment is on the

         21    studies and the data that we are seeing this

         22    morning.  It's all good information and in

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          1    respect to the comment that one size doesn't

          2    fit all, I appreciate that statement.  And we

          3    need to do -- I guess, you people need to

          4    look at some more data out of the state of

          5    Florida and not compare us to California,

          6    since I am from Florida.

          7              We're with -- for the past five

          8    years we've used VIF film, metallized film,

          9    used reduced rates in methyl bromide, and try

         10    to, you know, reduce our emissions and get

         11    our rates on down to where we can be a good

         12    steward of the land, good steward of our

         13    neighborhoods, you know, our surrounding

         14    habitat of the environment plus, you know,

         15    the animal life around.  And thank you for

         16    your time.

         17              THE MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Can we

         18    have number three?  And if you all would

         19    please start queuing up, you know, if you're

         20    four and five, get up, stand in the back, so

         21    you're ready, especially if we're going to

         22    have skipped people.  Thank you.

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          1              MR. DIEHL:  My name is Frank Diehl.

          2    I'm with Frank Diehl Farms.  I've been

          3    farming since 1965.  I've used methyl bromide

          4    since 1971.  Our experiences with it have

          5    been with no problems, as far as

          6    applications.  We have farmed next to

          7    residential, we have farmed next to schools,

          8    and we've had no problems with the

          9    application machinery that we are using.

         10    We'd like to say that our main concern here

         11    is the buffer zones.

         12              What is the threshold that's going

         13    to be the guideline for the buffer zone?

         14    We'd also like that to be applied to the

         15    region of Florida, and not with Georgia or

         16    Carolina or California, because of our soil

         17    conditions and our weather conditions here

         18    which are extremely different.  And the time

         19    period to replant or re-lay the plastic after

         20    a hurricane, you cannot stay within the

         21    threshold.  So we think it's very critical

         22    that those two items be considered in what

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          1    your threshold of setbacks and your time

          2    period of reapplication.

          3              The other issue is, we have

          4    stewardships amongst all our farms anymore,

          5    that we go through a food safe plan, third

          6    party audit continuously.  And we have to be

          7    certified for some of our end users to see

          8    the certifications.  So your right-hand

          9    stewardship programs and so forth, a lot of

         10    these are already in effect in one way or

         11    another, and being audited continuously.  So

         12    I don't think by applying more of these

         13    regulations to this label, will do one way or

         14    the other.  Because the economics of

         15    agriculture today are making us become more

         16    efficient with these products, so that we can

         17    survive.

         18              I see a bad scenario here if you

         19    put buffer zones in that completely are

         20    economically going to put someone out of

         21    business.  All right, I don't think it's

         22    right for any of us to cause problems to

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          1    anybody else that's involved in agriculture

          2    or not, residential or what.  We all want to

          3    be safe.  That's the main goal here.  But

          4    there's also a threshold that works for

          5    everybody, and I hope that you all can find

          6    this threshold.  Thank you.

          7              MR. HAMILTON:  My name is Bill

          8    Hamilton and I work with Southern

          9    Horticulture in St. Augustine.  I've been

         10    involved in agriculture my whole life in the

         11    state of Florida.  Restricted pesticide

         12    applicator's exam at the University of

         13    Florida is part of the undergraduate plant

         14    science degree.  I've been a landscape

         15    contractor for 27 years.  We also run a

         16    retail outlet in Garden Center.  We don't use

         17    any pesticides at all.

         18              I'd like to enter into the record

         19    the article in today's local paper,

         20    development and world economy threaten

         21    agriculture.  Development is coming to

         22    Florida, and the impacts between residential

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          1    and schools and communities with the farming

          2    community is inevitable.  I'd like to also

          3    read into the record an article by the St.

          4    Augustine Record -- science fair project,

          5    South Woods Elementary School, Drift Catcher

          6    Project, catching drift from adjacent farm

          7    fields, identifying levels of pesticides that

          8    were considered unsafe by some school board,

          9    did their own study.  They also collected

         10    pesticides, but concluded that the order of

         11    magnitude of increase was required before

         12    human health risks were identified.

         13              It comes down to what is safe.  The

         14    core problems still exist.  What are the safe

         15    pesticide exposure level for kids?  And this

         16    is the St. Augustine Record editorial.  No

         17    one knows what is the acceptable exposure

         18    level on one pesticide to children, much less

         19    the cocktail pesticides coming from farm

         20    fields.  We'll never know for sure what is

         21    safe for children until state and federal

         22    Environmental Protection Agency scientists

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          1    develop pesticide safety standards for young

          2    children.

          3              For the record, I'd like to point

          4    out that I think that there are two issues

          5    here.  One is the farming community, and the

          6    other is the pesticide industry.  Farmers

          7    don't care what they use as long as it works

          8    and as long as they can make a living at it.

          9              The pesticide industry has a vested

         10    interest in ensuring the ongoing use of

         11    pesticides.  And when the vegetable

         12    production manual for the state of Florida is

         13    funded and paid for by the pesticide

         14    industry, what they have to say needs to be

         15    looked at with a special, especially sharp

         16    scrutiny, because they have a vested interest

         17    in maintaining an open market for pesticides

         18    in the state of Florida.

         19              Florida is different from

         20    California and other states.  We have a lot

         21    of water here, and there's a lot of water

         22    run-off issues.  I'd like to also enter into

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          1    the record the Pew Charitable Trust study on

          2    America's living oceans, which documents the

          3    decline in oceans and fisheries all over the

          4    world.  Part of that is directly the result

          5    of urbanization, and agriculture.  Pesticides

          6    play a role in that.

          7              My family is also one of the last

          8    aquaculture leaseholders in St. Johns County.

          9    St. Johns County used to be the biggest

         10    producer of shrimp boats in the world, and

         11    now they produce none.  The way marine

         12    organisms react to pesticides is exactly the

         13    same as insects.

         14              Problem with pesticides is they

         15    don't stay put.  You put them out there, they

         16    do their job, and then they end up somewhere

         17    else.  The liability for pesticide use should

         18    lie with the manufacturers, and if the

         19    Environmental Protection Agency takes on the

         20    job of regulating them, then they also assume

         21    some of that liability.  Thank you.

         22              MR. AERTS:  Good afternoon, my name

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          1    is Mike Aerts.  I'm with Florida Fruit and

          2    Vegetable Association.  And I'll start off

          3    with the question/comment relative to the

          4    process.  This is a copy of the information

          5    downloaded from the docket that pertains to

          6    the risk mitigation options for the phase 5

          7    part of the fumigant cluster assessment.

          8    Now, we've submitted for an extension of 90

          9    days to the comment period.

         10              Debbie, I heard what you said this

         11    morning regarding the comment period.  But

         12    just to give you an idea why we requested

         13    such an extension to that comment period.

         14    This obviously is an extremely encompassing

         15    complex document.  And to get through a

         16    document such as this in any kind of valid

         17    form, plain and simple, we're just going to

         18    need more time to accomplish such a feat.

         19              Now keep in mind while we're trying

         20    to make comment on this, at the same time the

         21    fumigant assessment document, the 26-page

         22    risk mitigation document, has 53 different

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          1    questions in it that need addressing that the

          2    Agency is looking for information on.  And I

          3    fully understand why the Agency is looking

          4    for information on those questions.  They are

          5    valid questions.  Trouble is, it's just not

          6    that simple a process where a couple of three

          7    people can get together in a room in a couple

          8    of days and knock out answers to those 53

          9    questions.

         10              They're very complex questions, and

         11    are going to take some real time to develop

         12    information that is actually going to be

         13    usable to you in the end.  So I'd have to ask

         14    really, what is the practicality of the

         15    60-day comment period, because a third part

         16    of that question is keep in mind at the same

         17    time we're dealing with all this fumigant

         18    cluster assessment comments, there's a little

         19    thing called the methyl bromide critical use

         20    exemption that is due to be submitted one

         21    week after the current cut-off for the

         22    comment period of July 2nd right now.

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          1              So it doesn't seem that practical

          2    that we should be forced to get all these

          3    comments on the fumigant cluster assessment

          4    at the same time, literally in the same week,

          5    having to put together the methyl bromide

          6    critical use assessment.

          7              Now specific to the buffer

          8    situation, buffers in a large way are driven

          9    by meteorological and still, meaning no wind,

         10    weather conditions.

         11              Obviously, California has a lot of

         12    the topographical features that would be

         13    conducive to such conditions with their

         14    hills, and their valleys, and their micro-

         15    climate is subject so that inversions and

         16    those sort of things will be occurring.

         17              We're talking about a completely

         18    different scenario in Florida.  Florida is

         19    flat as a pool table, by and large.  We've

         20    got constant sea breezes moving air across

         21    the state continuously.  I would ask that

         22    consideration be given to Florida-specific

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          1    weather data in performing some of these

          2    model functions, looking at not an entire

          3    year's worth of meteorological data, but just

          4    get a time-specific data that overlay

          5    specifically on to Florida's fumigation time

          6    periods.

          7              With the unstableness of the

          8    atmosphere that we're dealing with a lot of

          9    the time when we're trying to do fumigation,

         10    I think you'll find there to be some vast

         11    differences in what's going on, relative to

         12    the environmental stability and virgin form

         13    and that sort of thing.

         14              Relative to the information we're

         15    seeing, relative on the buffer zones and

         16    their impacts on production, just wanted to

         17    make you aware Dr. Knowling, Joe Knowling,

         18    could not be with us today, he had hip

         19    surgery last week.

         20              But he is in the process of putting

         21    together a formal presentation and

         22    publication on what the impacts of these

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          1    buffer zones are going to be.  We will be

          2    giving you a copy of that publication once it

          3    is official.  It is still in draft form now,

          4    but it will be coming.

          5              And if you're interested in the

          6    impacts, well, impacts actually start at less

          7    than a 100 feet for specific industries in

          8    the state.  And this is being worked on by a

          9    number of people in the industry as well.

         10              Buffer zones that are as limited as

         11    a 100 foot have over a $6 million impact on

         12    the strawberry production system, the way

         13    things stand right now today with existing

         14    fields, with existing homes.

         15              That's only, of course, going to

         16    get exponentially worse as time goes on too,

         17    with that sort of situation.

         18              Another thing I would ask is that

         19    I'm wondering whether or not any

         20    consideration has been given to the chain

         21    two-dimensional model in a lot of this

         22    modeling work.  Because from my

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          1    understanding, it's the soil diffusion model

          2    developed by USDA.

          3              And that model, which simulates

          4    emissions under varying soil, environmental

          5    and product application conditions.  The

          6    chain could be used as an emission source

          7    data point for conducting standard air

          8    dispersion models, your perfumes, your Sofias

          9    and such, to predict better your air

         10    concentration.

         11              So I just ask what kind of

         12    consideration has been given to that chain

         13    model, in performing your regular risk

         14    assessments.

         15              THE MODERATOR:  All right.  May we

         16    have the next number please.

         17              MR. STARKEY:  My name is Tom

         18    Starkey, and I represent the Southern Forest

         19    Nursery Management Cooperative, and all the

         20    comments I'm making today are on behalf of

         21    the members of the cooperative.

         22              The cooperative is made up of 20

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          1    members.  These 20 members own and operate 40

          2    nurseries throughout the southeast.  The

          3    cooperative nurseries themselves produce 75

          4    percent of all the trees grown for

          5    reforestation in the south.  This amounts to

          6    1.2 billion seedlings grown each year in the

          7    south.

          8              The white dots here show the

          9    distribution of the member nurseries within

         10    our cooperative throughout the southeast.

         11              This is what forest seedling

         12    production used to look like before

         13    fumigation.  Needless to say we don't want to

         14    go there again.  There are some unique

         15    characteristics of forest tree nursery

         16    fumigation that present some definite

         17    challenges to us and in trying other

         18    technologies.

         19              We use primarily high density

         20    plastic film broadcast applied.  Fumigants

         21    are shank-injected, preplant.  And the fields

         22    within the forest tree nursery are normally

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          1    fumigated one time every four years.

          2              A typical nursery will fumigate

          3    less than 25 acres per nursery per year.  And

          4    fields are usually fumigated within a short

          5    three- to four-week period in either early

          6    spring or fall.  And fumigation costs

          7    normally run between $1,500 and $2,400 per

          8    acre.

          9              Just broadcast, next.

         10              The biggest problem that we have,

         11    and you've heard this from other people, are

         12    most of the nurseries, when they were first

         13    established, were in very remote areas.  But

         14    with urbanization and encroachment it's

         15    become a problem.  We have three nurseries

         16    within Georgia that have been in their same

         17    location now for over 50 years.  And to look

         18    at them now, they are surrounded by homes.

         19              Next.

         20              To impose large buffer areas will

         21    create significant economic losses for our

         22    nurseries and result in a number of closures.

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          1    For example, 500 to 1,000 foot buffer zones

          2    would result in a $30 million loss for our

          3    tree nurseries.  Half-mile buffer zones would

          4    result in almost a $43 million loss.

          5              Another way of looking at this too

          6    is how is this going to affect the trees that

          7    are planted in the southeast?  And this slide

          8    is perhaps most dramatic.  Remember again,

          9    there are 1.2 billion trees planted annually.

         10              Looking at buffer zones of 500 to

         11    1,000 feet would result in over a 50 percent

         12    reduction in the trees that are planted in

         13    the south each year.  If you go to your

         14    half-mile buffer zones, that would result in

         15    almost 80 percent reduction in the trees

         16    planted in the south.

         17              The urban nursery co-op has been

         18    operating for a number of years, but we've

         19    been looking at alternatives since 1992, in a

         20    very aggressive manner.  And next to methyl

         21    bromide, the best alternative that we've

         22    found today is chloropicrin used in a high

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          1    ratio in whatever fumigant that we're using.

          2              We've looked at a number of

          3    formulations, combinations rates, in addition

          4    to tarping.  Now this is not an option in

          5    forest tree nurseries, simply because of the

          6    problem with gluing.  And that's why we're

          7    using the high-density plastics, thank you.

          8              THE MODERATOR:  Number seven.

          9              MR. NISSEN:  My name is Ole Nissen.

         10    I with my sons operate Sunshine State

         11    Carnations in Hobe Sound, Florida.  We are

         12    cut flower producers, a rare breed indeed,

         13    when you consider that over 85 percent of all

         14    cut flowers sold in the U.S. comes from

         15    outside.

         16              We would like to think that the EPA

         17    would like us to stay in business for another

         18    50 years or more.  We appreciate your having

         19    these meetings so that you with our help can

         20    solve possible problems.

         21              With buffer zones proposed, we

         22    would no longer be able to be in business.

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          1    We hope we have in the last 10 years or more

          2    tested all alternatives available along with

          3    methyl bromide and have no bystander

          4    problems.  Also we have not found an

          5    alternative comparable to methyl bromide.

          6              A suggestion.  If you do not use a

          7    commercial applicator to do your application

          8    of any chemical, perhaps the private

          9    applicators should be instructed under a new

         10    program designed by EPA in cooperation with

         11    the state's extension services to ensure an

         12    even better and safer application method for

         13    all chemicals.

         14              We all know that different states

         15    with different soils, climate, et cetera,

         16    have special conditions to take into

         17    consideration.  Please help to ensure that we

         18    will be able to continue to enjoy U.S. grown

         19    fruits and vegetables and all other crops.

         20    Thank you.

         21              MR. NORTON:  Good afternoon, my

         22    name is Jack Norton, and I also appreciate a

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          1    chance to say a few words.  I am a private

          2    research consultant.  Formerly I was manager

          3    of the IR-4 Methyl Bromide Alternatives

          4    Programs.  I point out that there is a

          5    summary of data over a number of years where

          6    IR-4 conducted trials both in California and

          7    Florida using some of the products that were

          8    discussed here today, the registered

          9    alternatives, Telone, chloropicrin, metam

         10    sodium, metam potassium.

         11              That data summarized in a report

         12    that I left -- it's an IR-4 newsletter --

         13    there are several copies back on the

         14    registration table.  Also there's a

         15    compilation of data from a number of trials

         16    that were run here in Florida.  Dr. Jim

         17    Gilreath and also Husein Ajwa in California,

         18    which actually contains data that shows

         19    comparative data to methyl bromide where the

         20    products being discussed here today are

         21    compared directly to methyl bromide standard.

         22              I make these comments for a couple

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          1    of reasons.  One, I think Bill Chism

          2    indicated that the best alternative to methyl

          3    bromide in tomato and strawberry was

          4    chloropicrin and 1,3-dichloropropene. I think

          5    that's a very over simplification of the

          6    issue, that omits the necessity of having a

          7    good weed control product in the mix, which

          8    would be in this case metam sodium, metam

          9    potassium.  They really must be a part of

         10    that component to be fully effective as

         11    methyl bromide alternative, that mix.

         12              Our results have shown conclusively

         13    that if you use the chloropicrin or Telone

         14    C35 in the beds and then follow five to seven

         15    days later with full use rates -- full use

         16    rates -- of metam sodium or metam potassium,

         17    that's 75 gallons of Vapam HL or 60 gallons

         18    of Kpam, then you can get performance

         19    equivalent to methyl bromide.  To use less

         20    than that, I think the jury would still be

         21    out.  We don't know, but I would expect that

         22    you could expect less than optimum

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          1    performance if you start shaving your rates

          2    to mitigate risk.

          3              And certainly, I think if you have

          4    these -- as Ole pointed out -- if you have

          5    buffer zones that prohibit you from using

          6    these products and that's what would happen,

          7    if they're as large as we think they could

          8    be, then we're back to square number one.  We

          9    don't have registered alternatives to methyl

         10    bromide, it's just that serious.

         11              So that's about all I have to say.

         12    I'm just saying that those are issues that

         13    are of concern to me, and I think to a lot of

         14    other folks that are in the audience today.

         15    Thank you very much.

         16              MR. HALL:  My name is Charles Hall.

         17    I am the executive director of the Georgia

         18    Fruit and Vegetable Grower's Association.

         19    And on behalf of the fruit and vegetable

         20    industry in Georgia, we appreciate EPA coming

         21    to the southeast to hold this listening

         22    session.

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          1              I also want to thank two of our UGA

          2    faculty that's here today, Dr. Stanley

          3    Culpepper and Mr. Keith Rucker, who've been

          4    doing extensive research on looking at methyl

          5    bromide alternatives and many of you have

          6    seen some of the work that Dr. Culpepper and

          7    Mr. Rucker have done.

          8              Currently there are three fumigant

          9    systems that are being evaluated through

         10    research on large scale replicated farm

         11    trials in Georgia.  One of the most popular,

         12    the 1,3-dichloropicrin and metam combination.

         13    As we estimate in spring of '07, 30 percent

         14    of our growers are using this combination in

         15    growing vegetables during the spring of '07.

         16              However, whichever fumigant

         17    combination they decide on as the best,

         18    chloropicrin is a major component of that to

         19    have an effective methyl bromide alternative.

         20              Vegetable production in Georgia

         21    using plastic culture as a production method

         22    has a farm gate value of approximately $500

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          1    million.  Removing chloropicrin as an

          2    alternative from these program combinations

          3    will reduce weed and disease control and this

          4    removal will also cause a significant

          5    reduction in yields, as well as delaying crop

          6    maturity, which will cause our growers to

          7    lose a very important market window in

          8    production.

          9              As an example, one on-farm

         10    replicated study that was done in Georgia,

         11    noted that the number of cantaloupe fruit

         12    produced with the 1,3-D, metam, chloropicrin

         13    combination was 23 percent greater than the

         14    same system without the chloropicrin.

         15              Currently this three-way

         16    alternative, according to the EPA perfume

         17    buffer requirements would require buffer

         18    restrictions of over 1,400 meters.  This

         19    would essentially wipe out about 95 percent

         20    of our production in Georgia with this large

         21    a buffer restriction.

         22              In fact, even with 100-foot

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          1    restrictions, we'll see a very significant

          2    effect on our production in Georgia.

          3              However, I want to make sure we put

          4    on the record that we do support extended

          5    buffers with regard to sensitive sites, such

          6    as schools and nursing homes.  We feel that's

          7    very important.

          8              Extensive federal funds have been

          9    exhausted on models to determine the movement

         10    of fumigants, after leaving the soil and

         11    entering the atmosphere.  These models may

         12    accurately depict the movement of gases,

         13    especially chloropicrin, once the gas is in

         14    the atmosphere.

         15              However, the models should be not

         16    used exclusively to determine the buffer

         17    restrictions because they do not take into

         18    account the soil characteristics that

         19    determine how much fumigant will actually

         20    leave the soil.  Without scientifically

         21    understanding the impacts of soil

         22    characteristics and mulches on gas emissions,

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          1    no model can accurately depict the needed

          2    buffer restrictions.

          3              For example, chloropicrin injected

          4    eight inches deep in a South Georgia soil

          5    with 45 percent soil moisture, had a 100

          6    times greater emissions at four hours after

          7    application, than did the same soil with 70

          8    percent soil moisture.

          9              I also want to mention that no one

         10    has mentioned this personal protection

         11    equipment this afternoon, but, however, we

         12    realize that it's needed in a workplace, and

         13    it's essential for a strong workforce.

         14    However workers required to wear respirators

         15    during the application of chloropicrin,

         16    whether it is half-mask or full-face shields,

         17    can be extremely problematic and dangerous.

         18              When the respirators are worn,

         19    workers' ability to communicate with each

         20    other is very limited, almost eliminated.

         21    The respirator muffles the voice and blocks

         22    the workers from hearing each other.  If

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          1    there is a problem with the equipment or

          2    chemical application interruption, quick,

          3    fast, and immediate worker communication is

          4    not possible when wearing a respirator.

          5              In summary, the University of

          6    Georgia research has clearly shown that gas

          7    emissions can be manipulated understanding

          8    the relationship of soil moisture, soil

          9    texture, soil temperature, compaction, and

         10    mulch types.

         11              We ask and request EPA to give more

         12    time that is needed to scientifically

         13    understand the relationship between these

         14    soil characteristics and establishing buffer

         15    restrictions in the use of chloropicrin.

         16    Thank you.

         17              MR. McLAWHORN:  I'm Carroll

         18    McLawhorn, from Greenville, North Carolina,

         19    representing Hendrix and Dail.  Thank you for

         20    allowing us to make our comments today.

         21              I come before you as a custom

         22    applicator with 42 years of experience in

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          1    applying, servicing, fumigants all over the

          2    east coast and literally halfway around this

          3    world.

          4              I think what we need to focus on

          5    today is the fact that we didn't get here

          6    today without having a good safety record

          7    behind us.

          8              The amount of applications, the

          9    amount of acres grown behind me, stand to

         10    grow as an applicator of this state of

         11    Florida and east coast of the United States.

         12    You and us have a fine record to stand on

         13    today.  The amount of acres, the amount of

         14    chemicals applied, are safely applied.  We

         15    take pride in what we do.

         16              Going back to fumigation, what we

         17    do in fumigation, we offer a sales and

         18    service for results.  The growers behind us

         19    follow good culture practices.  That's why we

         20    fumigate.  Soil moisture has to be present.

         21    It can't be too dry, it can't be too wet.  We

         22    can't work in heavy winds.  We have to be

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          1    aware of what our surroundings are.  We have

          2    to know our compound.  We are schooled, we

          3    are trained, we are certified.  We continue

          4    to do that.

          5              We're mindful of our fellow

          6    workers, and for a lot of us here in this

          7    room today, one of the greatest things that

          8    we have to carry on, which many of these

          9    growers bring forth, is the second

         10    generation.

         11              And for some of us in this

         12    application business, we're bringing our sons

         13    and daughters on.  We would not put them in

         14    jeopardy, knowing that they were not exposed

         15    or given an opportunity, to number one, have

         16    a label which is very thorough, and very

         17    detailed, of how to safely apply in a given

         18    amount to carry on the thing we're doing in

         19    fumigation, to provide fruit, fiber and

         20    services for this country.

         21              I commend the people behind me and

         22    I think we need to accent that.  That are

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          1    things we can continue to do, continue to

          2    educate people.  I think all of us are aware

          3    of how far we've come.  In my 42 years, I

          4    know for a fact what is imposed upon us

          5    today, versus 10, 15, or 20 years ago.

          6              We have come a long way.  We ought

          7    to be proud of that.  This industry is proud

          8    of that, and you should be proud of that.

          9              There might be some tweaking that

         10    we need to do, but it also, speaking very

         11    briefly for the state of North Carolina and

         12    our tobacco growers and our sweet potato

         13    growers, two concerns we have, the buffer

         14    zone is just not a workable deal for us.

         15              In North Carolina our average farms

         16    are less than 200 acres. The buffer zone

         17    completely takes us out, if you go to the

         18    1,400 meters as proposed.

         19              The safety thing.  The gentlemen

         20    before me made a great point.  I've been on

         21    tractors, I've been on applicators.  If

         22    there's a problem, the best thing you can do

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          1    is step away safely.  If you're encumbered by

          2    suits and gas masks, you've got problems.

          3    Let common sense, good education, and good

          4    cultural practices continue to lead this

          5    industry.  Thank you.

          6              THE MODERATOR:  Number 11?  I'd

          7    like to remind everybody too that as you're

          8    listening, remember everybody can submit a

          9    written comment and there are instructions on

         10    how to submit a written comment in the

         11    package you picked up, and you can get help

         12    doing that from anyone here at the table

         13    except for me.

         14              MR. AUSTIN:  My name is Ray Austin.

         15    I work for DuBois and Son Farms, farmers over

         16    in Palm Beach County, grow produce.  I'm the

         17    gentlemen that's out in the field every day,

         18    I'm the guy that's there when the application

         19    is applied.  And I think drastic steps have

         20    been made as far as putting down the film

         21    that holds the gas immediately.  It's keeping

         22    it out of the way of the workers that are in

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          1    the field, making sure that you have the

          2    right moisture, it's not too dry, and it's

          3    not too wet, therefore it's held pre-bedding,

          4    making sure that everything's correct.

          5              The measures that you guys have

          6    implied on your labels and I imagine every

          7    farmer here doesn't have a choice but to

          8    follow them, because we're inspected.  At

          9    least two times a year I have a gentleman

         10    that comes in and inspects me.

         11              He goes over all my data, all my

         12    spay records, and he makes sure that

         13    everything's up to date, and everything's

         14    correct, and if I don't follow your rules I

         15    get penalized, and the more we get penalized,

         16    the more it costs us.

         17              And the one thing that we're here

         18    to do is to grow produce for Florida as well

         19    as United States, and to make sure that

         20    there's a living for thousands of people.

         21              Buffer zones are, like the

         22    gentlemen before me said.  We're only

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          1    farming, you know, 100 acres here, 50 acres

          2    there.  Palm Beach County has set aside so

          3    many acres.  Well, you have so many farmers

          4    on that land, and then you have houses all

          5    the way around it.  A 100-foot buffer zone is

          6    going to completely take us out.  You don't

          7    have much land or much room, because

          8    everyone's invaded us.

          9              The rules and restrictions that you

         10    have applied as far as protection and safety,

         11    are good, they're great.  But when you get

         12    into these full-face mask shields and the

         13    respirators, it does, it muffles the sound.

         14    I've tried them, I've used them.

         15              You have to educate your employees.

         16    I light fires on the end of my ditch banks,

         17    so my employees are aware of which way the

         18    wind is blowing.  You've got to make sure

         19    that the education is there, and it is there,

         20    and you guys are educating us more.  And

         21    thank you for your time.

         22              MR. WILLIAMS:  My name is Jamie

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          1    Williams, I'm from Six L's Packing.  I

          2    appreciate the opportunity to come here and

          3    speak before the panel for a moment.

          4              A little bit about who we are.  I

          5    work for a company, Six L's Packing.  Close

          6    to 12,000 acres of vegetables in the state of

          7    Florida, Virginia, South Carolina, and

          8    California.  We have been in the business

          9    close to a 100 years now.  I myself am a

         10    fourth-generation farmer out of Florida.

         11              The application of methyl bromide

         12    in our business is critical.  About 90

         13    percent of our production is under methyl

         14    bromide.  About 10 percent of this is what we

         15    call alternatives, with Pic or telone, and a

         16    cocktail mixture of herbicides.

         17              The trials and tests we ran over

         18    the last half a dozen years indicate that the

         19    best alternatives still take away yield.  We

         20    have not been able to duplicate either the

         21    results or the yields that we achieved with

         22    methyl bromide.

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          1              The metam sodium we used is used on

          2    double crops, where we come back and behind

          3    plastic culture, and re-fumigate.  It's

          4    probably the only alternative we have to use

          5    in that particular scenario that gives good

          6    kills and good weed control.

          7              The point I want to make about the

          8    cocktail of fumigants that you're looking at,

          9    is each one of these chemicals is uniquely

         10    different, and I think we're all aware of

         11    that.  The vapor pressure on the specific

         12    gravity, how they behave in the atmosphere,

         13    every one of those chemicals -- methyl

         14    bromide, Pic, 1,3-D, and metam sodium -- all

         15    act differently.  It's very difficult to

         16    gauge each one of them as a package, because

         17    they all behave in unique ways.

         18              It's almost like comparing, you

         19    know, when you look at aspirin, Tylenol, or

         20    ibuprofen, they all do painkillers, but they

         21    all act in the body differently.

         22              The cost of fumigation for us has

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          1    gone up four-fold in the last half dozen

          2    years.  We work with a very progressive

          3    company and we have, because of that

          4    increase, seek to use VIF products and other

          5    barrier films to reduce the rates of

          6    application.  That has done a little bit to

          7    lower the cost of production, but not much.

          8              VIF films are very expensive.  Any

          9    time you use nylon or metal barriers on top,

         10    it costs tremendously more money, so the

         11    economics are almost a wash now.  We can use

         12    less product, but we have to pay more for the

         13    plastic mulches.

         14              That being said, I think we're

         15    doing our part in the world body to reduce

         16    consumption of methyl bromide.  And I want to

         17    make sure that it gets heard that we are

         18    doing that.  Worldwide we've been asked to

         19    reduce consumption.  We're doing that.  You

         20    can't afford to stay in business and use the

         21    rates of methyl bromide that they operated on

         22    20 years ago.  It's too expensive.

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          1              The buffer zones are a huge issue.

          2    I would ask the body here to please consider

          3    any buffer zones that you do, give us the

          4    ability and the flexibility to decide or

          5    manipulate the applications where there is

          6    VIF, deep shank injection, give us that

          7    ability to make those economic choices.

          8    Don't mandate a known barrier.

          9              As far as your regulations on

         10    health and safety, all of our applicators are

         11    private applicators with private licenses.

         12    The restricted nature of methyl bromide, Pic,

         13    or telone already sets up for worker

         14    notification posting.  All those requirements

         15    are already in place.  We don't need more

         16    legislation piled on top of that.

         17              It would not be unreasonable to set

         18    all fumigants into that restricted pesticide

         19    usage category, so that they are all

         20    operating under the same ban.  That would be

         21    fine.

         22              Just a quick point.  In this room,

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          1    you're probably looking at one half of one

          2    percent of the population that is producing

          3    the food supply.  It is not unimaginable for

          4    the mass to leave and destroy a very unique

          5    industry here, just because of purely being

          6    uneducated as to what our needs are.  So be

          7    very careful with our futures.

          8              THE MODERATOR:  Thirteen?

          9              SPEAKER:  I am a farm worker.  My

         10    father and mother were farm workers.  And I

         11    come here to speak to you about some of the

         12    things that I've heard today.  I hear a lot

         13    about the buffer zones and, you know, the

         14    pros and cons.  But we have farm workers that

         15    are going to be working in the fields, and

         16    we're still concerned about the things that

         17    happen to farm workers.

         18              For 31 years I have been hearing

         19    stories of things that have happened to

         20    people while working in the fields.  So we

         21    know that fumigants are dangerous.  We know

         22    that we need to be careful, that they need to

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          1    be curbed, that there's always got to be

          2    protection.  We heard today about wearing

          3    respiratory equipment and how that really

          4    doesn't help you because you can't hear, you

          5    can't signal to each other.

          6              However, somebody is sucking it in,

          7    so to speak.  So I am concerned.  I am

          8    concerned that in all of the things that the

          9    EPA is considering, that you continue to

         10    consider the welfare of the farm worker

         11    community.

         12              They are not here.  There is not

         13    too many of us here today to speak to that.

         14    And I'm going to just say to you that in all

         15    of the things that you do, remember these are

         16    human beings.

         17              We're worried about the schools and

         18    the houses that are coming closer and closer

         19    to the fields, but we have people in the

         20    fields.  And a lot of times because there

         21    isn't any money to educate the farm workers,

         22    organizations or agencies around shut down,

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          1    and they don't teach them, they don't prepare

          2    them so that they understand what it is they

          3    need to do when they go to work for a farmer.

          4              And we continue to do that, no

          5    matter what.  But we're concerned that in all

          6    of the conversation that's going on here

          7    today, and a lot of it, I can tell you, it's

          8    way above my head.  I don't understand all of

          9    it.  I do understand danger.  I do understand

         10    that fumigants can kill.  I do understand

         11    that it can affect pregnant women in the

         12    fields, no matter how you take it.

         13              So I thank you for this opportunity

         14    for us to be here, and for hearing all of the

         15    things that we have heard.  And I've made

         16    some friends too.  I met a lady in the

         17    bathroom, and I said, "Well, what do you

         18    think about all of this?"  And she said,

         19    "Well, you know, are you a farmer?"  I said,

         20    "No, I'm a farm worker, but you need both of

         21    us."

         22              And that's the bottom line.  We

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          1    need farmers and farm workers, and we need to

          2    come together and we need to look at

          3    something that can hurt us, and figure out a

          4    best way to make it good for all of us.

          5    Thank you.

          6              THE MODERATOR:  Number 14.  We're

          7    going to do auction -- it's going to be

          8    second call for number 14.  All right.  It

          9    looks like 14 isn't with us, so we're going

         10    to move on to number 15 on the list.  Dennis?

         11              SPEAKER:  Number 14 ceded their

         12    time to me.

         13                   (Laughter)

         14              THE MODERATOR:  Nice try.

         15              SPEAKER:  Well, first I'd like to

         16    start by thanking everyone from EPA for

         17    coming to Florida for this meeting.  You

         18    could have picked other states, but I think

         19    you came here for a good reason.  And we

         20    appreciate the fact that you are here to

         21    listen to the concerns of the folks here and

         22    their ideas as well.

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          1              We appreciate the fact that you've

          2    had an open system for communicating on the

          3    risk reduction and risk assessment for the

          4    soil fumigants, and we look forward to

          5    partaking in that process in the future.

          6              Clearly, soil fumigants are very

          7    important in the state of Florida.  You can

          8    tell that by the amount of material that's

          9    used here.  You can also tell that by the

         10    success that the growers have in using these

         11    products to come up with yields that would

         12    not otherwise be possible.

         13              And clearly, you're hearing today a

         14    need for safety that's appreciated by the

         15    growers, by farm workers, and by us in the

         16    regulatory arena as well.  We all share that

         17    same feeling that we need to be as safe as we

         18    possibly can, but as practically as we can,

         19    as well.

         20              Our department, the Department of

         21    Agriculture and Consumer Services has been

         22    very active in the area of regulating through

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          1    enforcement, and also regulating through the

          2    use of reviews of pesticide registrations.

          3              We look not only at what the

          4    federal responsibilities are as dictated in

          5    the label, but we also look at local

          6    conditions and the vulnerabilities that we

          7    might have here that may not otherwise be

          8    addressed in the label.

          9              So we're very sensitive in Florida

         10    to the fact that, for example, we have ground

         11    water conditions here that can be quite a bit

         12    more vulnerable than they are in some other

         13    states, and we need to pay special attention

         14    to them.  Given that, we also understand that

         15    there can be a regional need for registration

         16    and regulation of pesticides.

         17              And sometimes one size does not fit

         18    all for the entire country.  And with respect

         19    to fumigants, you're hearing, I think, some

         20    anecdotal information about the number of

         21    incidents that we have had where there have

         22    been complaints or exposures, and human

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          1    health has been impacted or alleged to be, in

          2    Florida.  Dale Dubberly, my counterpart in

          3    compliance monitoring, is going to be talking

          4    about that.

          5              But I think it's fair to say that

          6    we've had relatively few instances here in

          7    Florida, despite the fact that the compounds

          8    that are being used here are being heavily

          9    used, and also despite the fact that the

         10    warning agents that are in those compounds

         11    are of a nature that they will generate

         12    complaints if people become exposed to them,

         13    especially in residential areas.

         14              So there seems to be -- we're a

         15    little puzzled, I guess I would say, from our

         16    standpoint, about the extent to which we have

         17    a problem if it's not being manifested in

         18    incidents.  And we really encourage the

         19    Agency look very carefully at the incident

         20    data.

         21              We're also hoping that the Agency

         22    will look at the three parts of the risk

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          1    assessment that you talked about, very

          2    carefully, and that was monitoring as well as

          3    modeling and incidence.

          4              Incidence is one part of that.  The

          5    other part, monitoring, we need more data

          6    from Florida so that we can calibrate whether

          7    these models that are being used are

          8    providing appropriate or under- or overly-

          9    protective scenarios here in Florida.  So in

         10    conclusion, I'd like to thank you all for

         11    giving us the opportunity to comment.

         12              Our agency looks forward to working

         13    with EPA and with the growers and with the

         14    registrants on a regular basis.  And we look

         15    forward to a further dialogue on this.

         16    Thanks.

         17              THE MODERATOR:  We're going to skip

         18    number 16.  There is a video that number 16

         19    would like to show, and we're going to

         20    introduce him and have him show his video

         21    during the break, if any of you would like to

         22    see it.  The video is longer than the

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          1    4-minute comment time, so we're going to give

          2    you the option to see that if you would like.

          3              Dale, could you come up?

          4              MR. DUBBERLY:  My name is Dale

          5    Dubberly.  I am chief of the Bureau of

          6    Compliance Monitoring with the Florida

          7    Department of Agriculture.  And once again

          8    I'd like to extend my thanks for all that's

          9    being here today.  This is a full partnership

         10    -- EPA states, growers, registrants, and all

         11    the other stakeholders in here.

         12              There is a couple of things that I

         13    would like to mention from a state

         14    enforcement perspective here today that I

         15    think needs to be given consideration.  We

         16    have some limited experience then with

         17    fumigation management plans, with some

         18    products that's been experimentally used here

         19    in Florida.  They do pose some concerns for

         20    us from an enforcement standpoint.

         21              One that I want to bring out

         22    specifically is that applications do change

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          1    in Florida due to climatic reasons,

          2    mechanical reasons, et cetera.  That's

          3    problematic for the fumigation management

          4    plans.  So I think there are some things that

          5    need to be considered of how these fumigation

          6    management plans are submitted, who reviews

          7    them, et cetera.

          8              Also, the fumigation management

          9    plans mentioned earlier, is that we're

         10    talking about certification of these

         11    fumigation management plans.  I heard a

         12    couple of things here today talking about

         13    third-party certification, possibility of the

         14    state certifying these fumigation management

         15    plans.  And I think there is lot more thought

         16    that needs to go into that process of these

         17    fumigation management plans.

         18              Secondly, buffer zones.  We have

         19    some extensive experience dealing with buffer

         20    zones on another product, not a fumigant in

         21    the state of Florida, and we worked with it

         22    for many, many years.  And it's worked pretty

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          1    well, but it's a different type of product,

          2    it's a different type of buffer, et cetera.

          3              What I would like to say about

          4    buffer zones especially with fumigants, it's

          5    very difficult from the enforcement

          6    standpoint to monitor these type buffer zones

          7    with fumigants.

          8              Basically, you're looking at

          9    possibility of having an air monitoring

         10    program.  Currently we do not have an air

         11    monitoring program in the state, nor do we

         12    probably have the resources to set up some

         13    type of air monitoring program in the state.

         14              That would be a very, very costly

         15    area that we would have to really consider as

         16    far as our resources here, of implementing

         17    some type of program here for monitoring

         18    these buffer zones, et cetera.

         19              Also I would like to talk just a

         20    little bit about the impact of this potential

         21    change here, because everything that's placed

         22    on the labels -- everybody knows the label's

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          1    the law -- so whatever you reference here on

          2    that label would become law, and we would be

          3    having to enforce that.

          4              Not only would it impact the

          5    enforcement program in the state of Florida,

          6    it would also impact our certification

          7    training program in Florida, our workers'

          8    safety program in Florida.

          9              And I think there needs to be some

         10    due consideration given to all of those

         11    programs in here, because you're looking at a

         12    lot of additional resources, manpower, et

         13    cetera, not only from the state's perspective

         14    here, but also all of the other partners that

         15    partner within the state of Florida for those

         16    type of programs.  So I think there needs to

         17    be some due consideration given to those.

         18              Lack of resources.  I don't need to

         19    dwell on this.  You all work in the EPA, you

         20    all know what I'm talking about, same as

         21    growers, et cetera.  We only have so many

         22    resources.

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          1              Lastly, I'll just kind of wrap up

          2    that we'd just like to mention about this

          3    incident data here.  I had incident data on

          4    methyl bromide and chloropicrin dating back

          5    to 1996, and there's been very few

          6    incidences.  And I will be providing those to

          7    the Agency in case you all have not received

          8    that incident data.  But I can tell you it's

          9    very, very limited for a 10-year period.

         10              And I do have some other fumigant

         11    incident data too, and it's very, very

         12    limited here.  So once again, I'm not sure

         13    that there is a major problem here with some

         14    of the incidents we've been talking about and

         15    the data.

         16              And lastly, I would like to

         17    respectfully request that we have an

         18    extension of time to finish this comment

         19    period, because as it's been pointed out here

         20    today there is a lot of information that

         21    needs to be reviewed and commented on.  And I

         22    would just respectfully ask that.  Thank you

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          1    all.  Thank you all for coming down.

          2              THE MODERATOR:  Is number 18 coming

          3    up?  Did I scare off number 18?  19?  Oh,

          4    you're popping up in the -- were you asleep?

          5    Apparently we're not paying attention to our

          6    numbers.  Can I see your card?  I think

          7    you're fooling with me.

          8                   (Laughter)

          9              MR. LYERLY:  Isn't my fault.

         10              THE MODERATOR:  Uh-huh.

         11              MR. LYERLY:  All right.  My name is

         12    Steve Lyerly.  I'm the vice president of

         13    Hendrix and Dail.  We're a fumigant

         14    distributor located in Palmetto, Florida.  We

         15    sell and supply most of the registered

         16    fumigants that are on the market today.

         17              In 1991, the Clean Air Act dictated

         18    that methyl bromide would be controlled.

         19    Since that date, industry and user groups

         20    have worked together to develop more

         21    efficient use of methyl bromide.

         22              Through much hard work, along with

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          1    much trial and error, we figured out ways to

          2    maintain a level of weed and disease control

          3    required to keep ourselves competitive in a

          4    very competitive industry.

          5              During that time, inputs such as

          6    fumigants, fertilizer, land cost, insurance,

          7    et cetera, have gone up tremendously.  We

          8    have invested in alternatives, and used them

          9    when they didn't work.

         10              We have kept our employees safe by

         11    training them over and over again on the safe

         12    use and handling of fumigants such as

         13    chloropicrin, Telone, methyl bromide, and

         14    metam sodium, as well as other pesticides.

         15    We have worked with plastic manufacturers to

         16    trial new films.  All of these things come at

         17    a significant cost to our businesses.

         18              I believe the proposed buffer zones

         19    for the currently registered fumigants is an

         20    example of good intentions gone awry.  We are

         21    currently operating under safety guidelines

         22    established over the last 40 years of

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          1    commercial fumigation.  Chloropicrin has been

          2    used as a fumigant, as well as a warning

          3    agent for fumigants, since the beginning.

          4              The buffer zones proposed will deal

          5    a devastating financial blow to the

          6    agricultural community and the countless

          7    collateral businesses that depend on

          8    agricultural production and revenues.  The

          9    abundance produced by U.S. agriculture will

         10    be in jeopardy, if we are not thoughtful and

         11    thorough when contemplating regulations.

         12              Good fumigation practices could be

         13    a program established by the stakeholders,

         14    registrants, and the EPA.  Working together

         15    to continue to reduce emissions should be

         16    everyone's goal.

         17              Establishing buffer zones may seem

         18    like a great idea, but it is not practical,

         19    and will most likely wreck the farm economy.

         20    For instance, the occurrence of inversions in

         21    Florida is nonexistent.

         22              Perhaps the air modeling studies

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          1    being used in the west aren't the same

          2    studies that should be used in the east.  I

          3    encourage the EPA to send representatives to

          4    fumigations in Florida to see for themselves

          5    how safe and efficient we are.  We would

          6    welcome this and encourage it.

          7              The contemplation of establishing

          8    up to 4,000 foot buffer zones without

          9    understanding the consequences to not only

         10    the Ag economy, but to the entire U.S.

         11    economy as a whole, would be a tragic

         12    mistake.

         13              It is important to understand that

         14    fumigation is essential to vegetable and

         15    nursery production for the following reasons.

         16    Intensive cropping on the same land results

         17    in a buildup of soil pathogens, making the

         18    land unproductive over time.  Polyculture

         19    requires weed control over the term of the

         20    crop, which cannot be achieved without

         21    fumigation.

         22              Water use permits and expensive

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          1    wells and irrigation systems are not

          2    portable, thus necessitating the same land be

          3    used for fall or spring.  The lack of

          4    available farmland -- years ago, farmers

          5    simply moved to new land.  That is not

          6    possible today.  Sanitation and quarantine

          7    issues.  Fumigation protects our food source.

          8              I'm almost done.

          9              The lack of any other registered

         10    pesticides that give the required control

         11    needed to produce a crop at a profit.

         12    Chloropicrin is the one fumigant that is

         13    common to all of the fumigants.  "Pic" as it

         14    is called, makes the alternatives to methyl

         15    bromide work better.  Without Pic, there is

         16    no fumigant or standalone treatment that

         17    gives acceptable control other than methyl

         18    bromide.

         19              Pic is combined with Telone, mitis,

         20    methyl bromide, and co-applied with metam

         21    sodium.  It is also applied as a stand alone

         22    treatment on some crops such as potatoes and

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          1    tobacco.  Pic is a natural warning agent.  It

          2    is --

          3              THE MODERATOR:  Time's up.

          4              MR. LYERLY:  Huh?  Oh.

          5              MR. ROWAN:  Good afternoon.  My

          6    name is Wesley Rowan.  I represent vegetable

          7    production operations of Farm-Op, Inc. and

          8    Cousins, Inc.  We're grower, packer, shippers

          9    of fresh market vegetables in the eastern

         10    seaboard from Virginia to south Florida.

         11    We're involved in about 12,000 acres of

         12    full-bed plastic mulch production.

         13              We've been working on methyl

         14    bromide alternatives for over eight years

         15    now.  As others have said, no alternative

         16    shows the consistent efficacy or productivity

         17    of methyl bromide, and proscriptive

         18    approaches with the alternatives create more

         19    opportunities for error when there are more

         20    technologies involved in accomplishing the

         21    same goal.

         22              So many variable circumstances

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          1    impact the use and success of soil fumigants,

          2    as has been said -- soil types, climate,

          3    cropping season, pest pressure, crop type.

          4              Currently utilized tactics for

          5    reduced worker and bystander exposure, in our

          6    operations anyway, include rate reductions,

          7    VIF films or metalized films, application

          8    technology upgrades in our fumigation rigs,

          9    our pressure monitoring systems, our delivery

         10    systems.

         11              And we also have constant employee

         12    training.  We utilize the WPS requirements

         13    for handler training in all of our employees.

         14    We do it annually rather than every three

         15    years.  And good agricultural practices as

         16    has been suggested are probably commonplace

         17    in everyone's operations, including ours.  It

         18    only makes sense to utilize effectively the

         19    products that we have.

         20              They're very expensive.  We need

         21    them to function and be efficacious.  And so

         22    we are, you know, firm believers in good

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          1    agricultural practices.

          2              The Florida environment and the

          3    cropping season presents many unique

          4    obstacles with respect to soil fumigation.

          5    Substantial rainfall, unpredictable

          6    environmental extremes, tropical events,

          7    create unreliable planning options.

          8              I mention this because of the issue

          9    of the fumigant management plan.  I think any

         10    fumigant management plan document needs to

         11    not be a short-term, small acreage, document.

         12    It needs to cover a more regional approach to

         13    a farm location, a more calendar approach.

         14              Because of the unpredictability of

         15    weather, we're going to be sitting around

         16    revising our fumigant management plans every

         17    day, because we don't know if we're going to

         18    lay today or not.  Water -- rainfall -- may

         19    impact that opportunity.

         20              So if that management plan is in

         21    place, I would ask that it be covering

         22    greater acreage with some sort of a calendar

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          1    approach.

          2              Also limiting the size of treated

          3    areas is totally unrealistic, because

          4    considerable acreage must be covered within a

          5    limited amount of time, based on water

          6    management concerns, either water

          7    availability for proper soil moisture, or the

          8    need to discharge water, and the impacts that

          9    it may have on water management district

         10    permitting.  So seasonal cropping is very

         11    impactful.

         12              Buffer zones.  Obviously everybody

         13    has been focused on that.  I think 300 feet

         14    or less is the only amount that we're going

         15    to deal with that isn't going to impact a

         16    certain percentage of our crop acreage.  500

         17    feet to 1,000 feet is going to eliminate 25

         18    to 50 percent of our acres.  Over 2,000 feet

         19    will probably put us out of business.

         20              Bystander relocation is not an

         21    option.  What if a single individual refuses

         22    to go for whatever reason?  The expense would

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          1    be prohibitive.  Obtaining written permission

          2    from adjacent landowners is also not an

          3    option.  We didn't ask them for permission to

          4    build their house next to our farm when we

          5    were there first.

          6              Extensive PPE will indeed create

          7    communication problems and risks to injury.

          8    I would suggest that if respirators are

          9    needed, they should be in a situation where

         10    the tarp must be molested.  We have

         11    situations commonly where we do not molest

         12    the tarp at all.  It's laid, and no material

         13    is present in the area.

         14              All right, again I would also thank

         15    you for the opportunity to provide these

         16    comments.  And then I would also ask that you

         17    extend the comment period at least 60 days so

         18    that we can have more like 12 minutes of

         19    opportunity to present the issues at hand.

         20    Thank you very much.

         21              THE MODERATOR:  ——————————————————

         22    —————————————————— and I don't have a dinner

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          1    break scheduled.

          2              MR. McAVOY:  Good afternoon.  My

          3    name is Gene McAvoy.  I'm with the University

          4    of Florida.  I first am a regional

          5    specialized vegetable agent here in southwest

          6    Florida.  I work with over 60,000 acres of

          7    vegetables.  It's very important to our local

          8    economy, generates $1.5 billion in economic

          9    activity in South Florida, and nearly 35,000

         10    jobs, as well as providing 70 percent of

         11    vegetables consumed throughout the entire

         12    east coast of the United States from November

         13    through May.  So we're very important.

         14              I've been in the vegetable industry

         15    for 30 years.  I put myself through school on

         16    a vegetable farm, so I'm intimately familiar

         17    with the vegetable industry.

         18              And I've seen very few instances of

         19    problems with fumigants.  And that's

         20    primarily due to the strict labeling laws.

         21    The WPS requirement is already in existence,

         22    and the training, education, and stewardship

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          1    that the industry already maintains with the

          2    use of fumigants.

          3              I work very closely with a number

          4    of distributors, manufacturers, in putting on

          5    annual stewardship classes for the industry.

          6    We also through our extension office train

          7    workers.  We trained nearly a thousand

          8    workers a year over the last 10 years, as

          9    well as providing training materials and

         10    train-the-trainer programs to increase our

         11    outreach to growers.

         12              In the last 10 years I've been

         13    working on alternatives.  There are a number

         14    of alternatives out there, Vapam, Telone,

         15    Kapam, chloropicrin.  Again, as most people

         16    mentioned, none of them reached the efficacy

         17    of methyl bromide.  And in every case you

         18    have to rely on a combination or a cocktail

         19    approach, which costs more.

         20              We've made tremendous strides in

         21    reducing rates using high-barrier films, VIF

         22    and metalized.  And one thing we need to

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          1    recognize is that efficacy depends on length

          2    of exposure -- that's dose by time.  It's in

          3    a grower's best interest to keep that

          4    material under the tarp for as long as

          5    possible to increase that exposure time.

          6              We've also made tremendous strides

          7    with application technology using drip and

          8    Yetter rigs.  But we're still learning and

          9    have quite a ways to go regarding the

         10    behavior of different fumigants, coming up

         11    with herbicide partners, and things like

         12    that.  I would also point out, as many people

         13    have, this is not California.  This is the

         14    southeast.  Our weather is very variable,

         15    very different.

         16              And our industry is under

         17    tremendous economic pressure through global

         18    competition, through the tremendous increase

         19    in land values, in the cost of equipment over

         20    the past few years.

         21              And certain costly options are

         22    going to render this industry nonviable in

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          1    this area.  And that would include large

          2    buffer zones, totally impractical, costly.

          3    With the way development is proceeding in

          4    this area, there is just no way that's going

          5    to be able to work well.

          6              PPE -- again, we're already using

          7    PPE, WPS in our handler training.  We conduct

          8    annually and again put over a thousand

          9    workers and handlers through that type of

         10    training.

         11              Need to watch what extent you'd go

         12    with this though.  Heat stress is a major

         13    consideration in southwest Florida and south

         14    Florida.  You put people in moon suits and

         15    you're going to be endangering their health

         16    to a much greater extent than any fumigant

         17    might.

         18              Communication, many people have

         19    pointed out.

         20              Farm management program.  I just

         21    quickly -- several people have mentioned

         22    that.  We need to have a flexible farm

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          1    management program if that is employed, since

          2    our conditions are so variable and changeable

          3    from day to day.

          4              And I would also point out as Mr.

          5    Dubberly did, our organization does not have

          6    the resources, manpower, or the time to

          7    monitor such, or act as a monitoring agent

          8    for such a program.  Thank you for your time.

          9              THE MODERATOR:  Gene and I work for

         10    the same organization, so I'm going to give

         11    him 5 minutes to tell everybody what I think.

         12              And we'd like to take just a couple

         13    of minutes here.  I need to make an

         14    announcement and then we're going to set up

         15    for a fish video and then we're going to have

         16    a break.  It is the 2:45 break.

         17              I'd like to remind everybody -- is

         18    Neil Richman -- Neil?  Are you in here?  Oh.

         19    See Neil back there?  Wave.  You guys see him

         20    if you want your CEU sheet.

         21              Everybody -- now everybody is

         22    breaking their necks to see who you are -- go

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          1    see Neil, pick up your CEU record for the

          2    day.

          3              And if I could please have

          4    everybody seated.  Number 16 is going to come

          5    up introduce his video, and then it will be

          6    started in the back.  You're free to go to

          7    break once he's done speaking, or stay and

          8    watch his video in the back.

          9              MR. WHITESIDE:  I have a

         10    presentation before the video.  My name is

         11    Dugan Whiteside.  I'm the owner of Anguilla

         12    Fish Farm in Hastings, Florida.  I am

         13    surrounded by potato farms.

         14              My comments today are specific to

         15    metam sodium and specific to the knifing-in

         16    application of metam sodium without tarps.

         17              Our operation has been effected by

         18    the use of metam sodium.  In November 1994,

         19    we lost 4,552 fish the day after application

         20    of metam sodium.  In December of 1995, we

         21    lost 744 fish the day after application on an

         22    adjacent field of metam sodium.  In December

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          1    1998, after being promised that it wasn't

          2    going to be used on that field -- a buffer

          3    zone was maintained by the adjacent

          4    landowner -- the loss of fish was 3,065 fish

          5    that weighed 3,500 pounds.

          6              Following that, the property was

          7    allowed to be used by another farmer but

          8    owned by the original owner in January of

          9    '01, and in that case, again the day after

         10    application, we lost about 775 pounds of

         11    fish.

         12              In that incidence FDA came in and

         13    considered my fish to be adulterated, and I

         14    wasn't allowed to sell them for two or three

         15    months following that, at which point FDA

         16    lifted their finding of adulteration.

         17              I have some recommendations.  I

         18    support prohibiting the application and

         19    storage of metam sodium within a quarter mile

         20    of certified aquaculture facilities in

         21    Florida due to its volatility and high

         22    toxicity to aquatic life.

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          1              I advocate regulations designating

          2    metam sodium as a restricted-use pesticide.

          3    Which, in my understanding, it's not

          4    currently a restricted-use pesticide in

          5    Florida.

          6              We had observations of the

          7    application and can assure you that there

          8    were problems with the applicator in doing

          9    this, including spillage of the compound.  We

         10    request that the Department of Agriculture in

         11    Florida institute monitoring of air quality

         12    in a study situation on a continuing

         13    situation following application of metam

         14    sodium at selected sites for the detection of

         15    MITC, and the same techniques that are

         16    employed by the California Department of

         17    Pesticide Regulation.

         18              We urge U.S. EPA to require

         19    manufacturers of metam sodium, as part of the

         20    scheduled re-registration process, to develop

         21    means of detecting metam sodium and MITC in

         22    animal tissue and to share those techniques

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          1    with the agriculture departments in all

          2    states.

          3              I have a video, if anybody would

          4    like to see it, of the '98 fish kill.  A

          5    comment was made earlier that this is not a

          6    human food issue.  In this case it is,

          7    because we were due to harvest fish on the

          8    day that we had this fish kill.  So that's my

          9    comment, and I'll be glad to show anybody the

         10    video if they'd like to see it.  Thank you.

         11              THE MODERATOR:  Please be back in

         12    15 minutes for the break.  We're going to be

         13    starting up right at 3:00 o'clock.

         14                   (Recess)

         15              THE MODERATOR:  All right, get your

         16    seats and hush.  Apparently, I have to be

         17    real specific with this crowd.  All right,

         18    can everybody hear me?  Time to get started

         19    again.

         20              Once again, if I can have you sort

         21    of line up.  If you know your numbers, come

         22    up.  Please prepare yourself.  Person on deck

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          1    right now is way back in the corner, please

          2    come and --

          3              MS. ECONOMOS:  Hi, my name is

          4    Jeannie Economos.  I am with the Farmworker

          5    Association of Florida with our headquarters

          6    in Apopka, Florida.  We've been involved in

          7    issues of farmworker health and safety and

          8    pesticides for more than 20 years.  And the

          9    issue of methyl bromide and other fumigants

         10    are of great concern to us.

         11              We want to thank the EPA for

         12    undertaking this process of looking at risk

         13    mitigation options for the fumigants, and so

         14    we really appreciate the opportunity to be a

         15    part of this process.

         16              There has been a lot of talk today

         17    about the costs of mitigation measures, but

         18    there is one thing that has not been talked

         19    about, and that's the social and healthcare

         20    costs of the use of fumigants.

         21              I know that it's not under the

         22    purview of the EPA to look at those kinds of

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          1    costs, but I think if you look at the

          2    comprehensive picture, you'll see that those

          3    costs need to be factored into looking at any

          4    kind of options for reducing the risk of

          5    using fumigants.

          6              And regards to healthcare costs, I

          7    know that there's been a lot of talk today

          8    that there are very few incidents of illness

          9    and exposures with fumigants.  But the

         10    elephant in the room that nobody is talking

         11    about is that the majority of workers that

         12    work in agriculture are undocumented

         13    immigrants.  And the undocumented immigrants

         14    do not report, in the majority of cases,

         15    unless their illness is very severe -- they

         16    are not reporting the illness and the

         17    symptoms that they are experiencing.

         18              And because of that there is, we

         19    feel, very drastic underreporting and

         20    unrepresentation of the kinds of things that

         21    workers are experiencing.

         22              We have some workers that have very

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          1    poignant stories to tell, but the reality is

          2    that they are afraid to speak for several

          3    reasons -- because they are undocumented, and

          4    because they fear for their jobs.

          5              So we will try to get that into the

          6    public record through written comments, but I

          7    think that that really needs to be looked

          8    because there are all kinds of illnesses,

          9    from dizziness to nausea, and if people's

         10    illnesses are not real severe, they don't go

         11    to the doctor or to the clinic.

         12              The Farmworker Association does

         13    trainings with healthcare facilities to train

         14    healthcare providers in farmworker

         15    communities about risk of pesticide exposure

         16    and how to identify, diagnose, and treat

         17    pesticide-related illnesses.

         18              And when we go to these clinics in

         19    farmworker areas, the physicians and

         20    healthcare providers tell us, number one,

         21    that they are not aware of the healthcare

         22    reporting requirements, and number two, that

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          1    they do get lots of cases of people that have

          2    symptoms that are initially diagnosed

          3    possibly as flu or other kinds of things, and

          4    they might give people an aspirin or an

          5    antibiotic and tell them to go home.  So

          6    that's one real serious issue that we think

          7    needs to be addressed.

          8              Also in terms of buffer zones, we

          9    do understand that there are costs to

         10    industry from the idea of implementing buffer

         11    zones.  So we would like to think about

         12    possibly looking at some kind of innovative

         13    approaches to this.

         14              I know it might sound kind of

         15    outrageous, but there are conservation

         16    easement programs and perhaps there can be

         17    some kind of a partnership where growers can

         18    get compensation for some kinds of lands that

         19    they have to take out of production in order

         20    to have buffer zones.

         21              The Farmworker Association did a

         22    project in 1998, and I'd like to submit this

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          1    to the EPA.  This was almost 10 years ago,

          2    and we are still having problems now with

          3    methyl bromide and farmworkers.

          4              And I know that there has also been

          5    a lot of talk today about how far we have

          6    come in reducing risks from fumigants, and

          7    specifically methyl bromide, but the reality

          8    is the only reason that we have come this far

          9    today is because there were regulations that

         10    were put into place, and that the industry

         11    was made to follow those regulations.  If it

         12    weren't for those regulations we would not

         13    have come this far.

         14              I also want to submit a couple

         15    other things, real quick, and that is a

         16    letter from a pastor whose church was next to

         17    farms that were treated, and her entire

         18    parish was effected with symptoms.

         19              This is also a newspaper article

         20    that was from that time period.

         21              Okay, thank you very much.  I

         22    appreciate it.

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          1              MR. CROCKER:  Good afternoon.  My

          2    name is Sean Crocker.  I am the executive

          3    director of the Florida Strawberry Growers

          4    Association.  Thank you for your time.  I'm

          5    also would like to let it be known to the

          6    panel that almost 20 percent of the Florida

          7    strawberry industry is in the room here

          8    today, so we have representation from our

          9    actual growers.

         10              Hillsborough County is located in

         11    West Central Florida and ranks third in

         12    Florida and fifth in the country in terms of

         13    farm-gate sales, and contains one of the

         14    largest urban cities in the state, Tampa.

         15              In spite of perception that this

         16    county is urban, agriculture continues to be

         17    the number one industry to our local economy.

         18    We are high value urban farming.  In 2005 the

         19    farm-gate value of Hillsborough County

         20    agriculture products was estimated at $724

         21    million.  While these figures are impressive,

         22    even more significant, the Hillsborough

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          1    County has a total economic impact that

          2    agricultural sales generate.

          3              According to a 2005 study, the

          4    total economic impact of agricultural

          5    production and the businesses that support

          6    the industry is $1.4 billion providing 20,122

          7    jobs with a $293 million in annual earnings.

          8    Hillsborough County crops dependent on soil

          9    fumigants include strawberries and

         10    vegetables.  These two crops represent $337

         11    million in those sales, and 21,200 acres.

         12    Much of the production occurs on these lands

         13    that are adjacent or in close proximity to

         14    residential subdivisions.

         15              Restricted buffers will have a

         16    catastrophic negative impact on the amount of

         17    land for production and will have a negative

         18    impact on these farm-gate values.

         19              I am the one responsible for the

         20    maps, but can't take total credit.  Steven

         21    Grand and David Hardy helped me generate the

         22    maps, and I would like to give them credit.

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          1              The potential impact farm land was

          2    identified on the maps by using agricultural

          3    commodity codes data from the Hillsborough

          4    County Property Appraiser's Office and these

          5    data layers were then combined to analyze the

          6    impact of each of the buffer options.

          7              The proposed buffers will impact

          8    Hillsborough County strawberry and vegetable

          9    growers to the terms and reducing available

         10    land farm-gate sales.  Buffers of a 100 feet

         11    to 1440 meters will reduce the available land

         12    from 8 percent to 95 percent respectively.

         13    It lowers the farm-gate value from $36

         14    million to $848 million respectively.  This

         15    analyst also looked at the overall number of

         16    properties that will be impacted with the

         17    buffer requirements, and with buffers of just

         18    a 100 feet, will impact 83 percent of the

         19    farms in our county.

         20              Our study also split out

         21    strawberries and vegetables, and the study

         22    shows that it will severely reduce the

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          1    available land for vegetable and strawberry

          2    production in the county, and lower the

          3    farm-gate values.  This highest potential

          4    buffer will wipe out a 100 percent of the

          5    strawberry industry and 93 percent of the

          6    vegetable industries, costing farmers in our

          7    county $348 million.  This accounts for

          8    almost 50 percent of all agriculture in our

          9    county.

         10              We do not support any buffer set-

         11    backs, but we do accept other alternatives to

         12    completing the methods of safe accepted

         13    cultural practices.  People's fears are from

         14    not understanding.

         15              I am that next generation.  I was

         16    sent off to college to get out of production

         17    agriculture, but had it in my blood so much

         18    that I had to come back to the farm.  And

         19    yes, I do have a day job in a trade

         20    association, but I've kind of got a unique

         21    trade association where I've got a farm, and

         22    my trade association that supports my

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          1    livelihood.

          2              That farm's 22 acres.  At a

          3    300-foot set-back, the farm at my office, I

          4    could only farm 1.5 acres, and that directly

          5    ties to my livelihood.

          6              The farmworkers that are there with

          7    me, the farmworker that was with my dad, my

          8    crew leader, my dad's crew leader has now

          9    segued into my crew leader that works with

         10    me.  That's his son.

         11              The farm workers work side to side

         12    with us.  We're out there putting out the gas

         13    together.  We know what it's like.  But when

         14    that farm worker goes home, I stay right

         15    there and live on that same property.  And

         16    that's the same property I draw my water out

         17    of to drink and take a shower in at night.

         18              So what the real theme is, right

         19    here that we're listening to today, has all

         20    been the same.  There's not a real problem

         21    when it comes to issues, being safety.  It's

         22    all in how we farm, and I think we've been

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          1    doing a pretty good job.

          2              Don't over-regulate because then

          3    the real problem will be where we get our

          4    food sources from, and that will be other

          5    countries that export, which we have no

          6    control over.  Thank you very much.

          7                   (Applause)

          8              THE MODERATOR:  Thank you, Sean.

          9    Is number 23 going to speak?

         10              MS. McBRIDE:  Hi.  I must say I

         11    feel a little bit like a fish out of water as

         12    I am not a farmer, nor am I a farm worker,

         13    but I am a member of the community, and I do

         14    thank you for the opportunity to come as a

         15    member of the community and speak.

         16              My name is Chris McBride, and I am

         17    a biologist in a former life, and a nurse,

         18    registered nurse in the community and a

         19    member of St. Columbkille Parish in south

         20    Fort Myers.  And I also come as an

         21    individual, but also as a member of the

         22    Environmental Justice Commission, as the

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          1    Catholic diocese of Venice.

          2              And you may wonder why I'm here and

          3    what is the connection, but we've always seen

          4    religion and science, not at odds, but going

          5    hand in hand, and faith and reason are never

          6    at odds.  We need to use both eyes to look at

          7    any issue.

          8              And I've lived very close to the

          9    Caloosahatchee River for about 27 years, and

         10    over the years have seen the quality of that

         11    water go down incredibly.  And it's not to

         12    point a finger at agriculture, because back

         13    long time ago there was plenty of gladiolus

         14    fields, zucchini and tomatoes all down that

         15    way.  With the intact wetlands we didn't have

         16    so much problem but with development and

         17    fertilizers that has gone downhill.

         18              So it's not all agriculture, but

         19    certainly pesticides with tri-halogenated

         20    methanes have played a part.  In the last few

         21    years the Caloosahatchee was put on the top

         22    10 worst water quality rivers in the United

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          1    States.  And that's something to be concerned

          2    about.

          3              We can't look at any one issue as

          4    isolated, because environment, economics,

          5    health, healthcare, tourism, agriculture are

          6    all linked together whether we recognize it

          7    or not and what affects one area will affect

          8    the others and when one area suffers, we all

          9    suffer.

         10              I was a young child in New Jersey

         11    and many of you might be surprised to know

         12    that New Jersey, though it's called the

         13    Garden State, was once a beautiful garden.

         14    And the same pressures a long time ago that

         15    befell the farmers there are befalling you

         16    guys here.  The increased development,

         17    increase in taxes, a lot of pressures that

         18    make viable farming very difficult.

         19              As a member of the Environmental

         20    Justice Committee, however, of the dioceses

         21    of Venice, we've looked at water quality

         22    issues and realized that Florida has unique

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          1    environmental concerns with this sandy soil

          2    and the high water table.

          3              What caught our attention a few

          4    years ago, that kind of stopped us from what

          5    we were working on, and looked at, was the

          6    reports of birth defects.  And I know that

          7    we've read the Collier County Health

          8    Department report and we understand that one

          9    cannot, on paper, necessarily show the links,

         10    but we know that these three women in

         11    particular were in the same general vicinity

         12    at the same general time, and I think it's

         13    pretty easy to make a connection there.

         14              It also bespeaks of the problem

         15    with overspray and drift and reentry periods.

         16    So they may not have been in the field that

         17    you could document at a given time, but the

         18    problem is very real.

         19              As the commission, we recommend

         20    best management practices, integrated pest

         21    management.  We'd like to see minimum use of

         22    pesticides.  Someone mentioned about over

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          1    time that the soil becomes so full of

          2    nematodes and various pests, but just like

          3    our bodies, when we overuse antibiotics then

          4    we can't have natural control.  Natural

          5    agents are no longer effective.

          6              So we would like to encourage

          7    whatever requirements, and I'm not going to

          8    speak to the buffer zone only because I've

          9    heard some of your comments today, but the

         10    requirements for safety, particularly, like I

         11    said, with the reentry and the drift and

         12    overspray, the personal protection, eye

         13    washing stations, and you've all said that

         14    you've done a good job of education, and I

         15    appreciate that very much.

         16              So I do want to say too that the

         17    incidents the other lady mentioned reporting

         18    -- a lot of the workers are migratory.  They

         19    are not in the same place year after year.

         20    It's very difficult to track and document the

         21    incidence of skin lesions and so forth, but

         22    we know that many of the workers come home at

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          1    night and have to undress, leave their

          2    clothing outside -- not because of body odor

          3    but because of intense pesticide.  And so we

          4    know that it's very much a problem.  Thank

          5    you.

          6              THE MODERATOR:  I scared 24 off, so

          7    25 is up.

          8              MR. OBERN:  My name is Chuck Obern,

          9    C&B Farms.  We are here talking about

         10    reducing risks with fumigants.  I think the

         11    best description of what we're trying to do

         12    is how we tried to get to this place this

         13    morning.

         14              With all the one-way streets, the

         15    detours, and dead ends, we both have to deal

         16    with them.  So I think we understand where

         17    we're trying to go.  There's lots of

         18    challenges to get to where we want to go.

         19              I'm a specialty vegetable producer

         20    who needs and requires fumigants, especially

         21    metam sodium, because of the many different

         22    crops that I grow which do not have labeled

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          1    herbicides.

          2              We use open-bed and plastic

          3    mulches.  Set-back requirements would reduce

          4    my farmable acreage from 5 to 25 percent

          5    depending on what buffer zone is required.

          6              One of my questions is, what are we

          7    going to do with the buffered land?  Can't

          8    use it.  We've got to have fumigants to farm.

          9    So what do I do?  Pay taxes on a piece of

         10    land that I can't use?

         11              We have not had any issues on the

         12    farm with worker safety or bystanders, and I

         13    don't foresee any problems.  I think

         14    education is the key with all affected

         15    parties.  It's of ultimate importance that we

         16    communicate with everybody that's affected

         17    with fumigants.

         18              A simple guide -- bilingual -- for

         19    use of the product would go a long way to

         20    help reduce any possible risks.  I'm also a

         21    farm worker.  I live right in the middle of

         22    my fields.  So does my family -- my wife, my

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          1    daughter.  We're there 24/7.  If I felt like

          2    I was hurting or exposing somebody, I would

          3    be one of the first ones to feel it.  I'm not

          4    going to take that risk.  I'm not going to

          5    expose any of the people who live on the farm

          6    or any of my neighbors to accept the same

          7    risk.

          8              I think it's important that we

          9    understand that farmworkers are employees.

         10    We have worker compensation insurance.

         11    Employee has the right to get workers'

         12    compensation.  So I would dare say that

         13    almost every case that there was has been

         14    reported, because worker compensation doesn't

         15    discriminate, it's for all the employees.

         16              I would like to just reiterate many

         17    of the things that have been discussed many

         18    times.  This is not California.  We don't

         19    have mountains, we don't have inversions, we

         20    don't have many of their conditions.  A lot

         21    of the issues that have been brought up by

         22    this panel and the information has been

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          1    developed in California.  Please, let's use

          2    some information from our localities, our

          3    soil types.  We get 72 inches of rain a year.

          4              I think we need to apply good Ag

          5    practices by all farmers, but I believe most

          6    of the farmers do.  We need to reduce

          7    exposure by taking into account wind,

          8    climate, temperature, soil, moisture.

          9              The amount of area to be treated

         10    depends not only on what a schedule is, but

         11    what Mother Nature gives us.  If we get a

         12    2-inch rain or like the other day we had a

         13    4-inch rain, you have to stay out of the

         14    fields for two days.  So, what are we going

         15    to do in those instances?  We need to keep

         16    them in mind.

         17              The use of VIF plastics is in

         18    vogue, but they're expensive.  We're in a

         19    global market.  We need to be careful.  VIF

         20    does work.

         21              What happens if no fumigant is

         22    used?  Well, we're going to go out of

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          1    business.  We can't compete with the global

          2    market.  I also ask for an extension for 60

          3    days on this comment period so as much of the

          4    information can be reviewed.

          5              Thank you very much.

          6              THE MODERATOR:  Did Lisa leave?

          7    Number 26, Lisa, did you leave?

          8              Please come in the lineup when its

          9    time for you to talk.  Thank you.

         10              MS. BUTLER:  My name is Lisa

         11    Butler.  I'm an attorney with Florida Rural

         12    Legal Services Farmworker Project.  Thank you

         13    for the opportunity to provide you comments

         14    today.  My focus is going to be not on the

         15    bystander exposure, but instead on

         16    suggestions that I have to mitigate worker

         17    exposure while they're working in the fields

         18    during what commonly is referred to in

         19    Florida as a plasticking operation, talking

         20    about methyl bromide.

         21              And I think by way of background,

         22    the first thing I would like to point out is

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          1    the reality for fieldworkers is very

          2    different than I think what maybe you've

          3    heard snippets of it already, but four field

          4    workers who were working in a plasticking

          5    operation with methyl bromide.  There are

          6    routinely problems of these workers not

          7    having had any training as to how to protect

          8    themselves from pesticide exposure, not

          9    having had any training to bring them up to

         10    handler level.

         11              And in addition when they're

         12    working in the plasticking operations, I have

         13    had numerous reports over the -- I've worked

         14    here for 10 years now, but for five years

         15    I've started looking at methyl bromide cases

         16    and I've had numerous reports that workers

         17    are receiving some level of direct exposure

         18    to methyl bromide while they're working in

         19    these plasticking operations and I have a

         20    couple of incidents I'd like to describe to

         21    you in a minute.

         22              But I think that belies the fact

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          1    that you have people saying from the

          2    enforcement sector that there are no

          3    incidents.

          4              There are incidents and they are

          5    not being captured and as Jeannie Economos

          6    testified from the Farmworker Association, a

          7    vast majority of the farmworker population

          8    doing the field work in Florida is Hispanic,

          9    is not English-literate and the vast majority

         10    are undocumented and are very intimidated and

         11    frightened about making complaints.  So, we

         12    have huge amounts of underreporting.

         13              The other thing that is apparent as

         14    far as your information goes is we do not

         15    have any good documentation, as it stands, of

         16    what the actual levels of exposure are for

         17    workers in the fumigant applications in

         18    Florida and we would urge you to take every

         19    step that you can to ensure that that data is

         20    gathered.

         21              Air monitoring is something that we

         22    believe should be done in every application

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          1    to ensure that, for example, with methyl

          2    bromide, you're not exceeding five parts per

          3    million or whatever the ratio is.

          4              Now, apart from that factual

          5    predicate which other workers can testify to,

          6    there are some specific steps that I believe

          7    would mitigate risks for workers.  One

          8    question is whether they're feasible, but

          9    first I'd like you to hear the story of a

         10    client of mine who could not be here today.

         11              He was working on a plasticking

         12    tractor in a pepper operation within the past

         13    two years.  Part of his job was to simply

         14    unroll the plastic.

         15              He'd had no training to work as

         16    pesticide handler.  He simply was doing this

         17    job.  Over the course of the day he began to

         18    feel dizzy and ill and the crew leader said

         19    go sit in the pickup truck.  He sat in the

         20    pickup truck.  At the end of the day, he went

         21    home.  He went at 1:00 in the morning to the

         22    emergency room with severe lung burns from

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          1    inhaling methyl bromide.

          2              There was no apparent accident, but

          3    he clearly had an injury which was documented

          4    by a medical authority.  A complaint was made

          5    to Department of Agriculture about this

          6    incident.  It proceeded through a workers'

          7    compensation claim.  Now, a year and a half

          8    later, we still have an individual who has

          9    respiratory problems and kidney problems.

         10              So, what I'd like you to evaluate

         11    and DACS, Department of Agriculture drew the

         12    conclusion that they could find no connection

         13    between methyl bromide and the injury this

         14    worker sustained.  We believe that that

         15    represents why you have underreporting of

         16    injuries.  There is --

         17              THE MODERATOR:  Time's up.

         18              MS. BUTLER:  I'm sorry.  I'll

         19    submit my written recommendations.

         20              MR. OSHAB:  My name is Terry Oshab.

         21    I work with Intergrow.  We're an agriculture

         22    supply company.  My area of expertise is, it

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          1    use to be called plastics, I think any more

          2    we're going to pretty much call it tarps,

          3    because there is a evolvement of the

          4    different types of films out there,

          5    incorporate metallization in different types

          6    of nylons.

          7              I've been laying plastic for, you

          8    know, a good solid 20 years now in a lot of

          9    different locations, both domestically and

         10    offshore, and I know you've heard this a lot,

         11    but I would like to encourage tests be done

         12    in Florida.

         13              My experience in laying plastics in

         14    Central America, in California, Texas,

         15    Arizona, Mexico, there is a difference in

         16    everywhere.  So, I think if you don't do the

         17    tests, whether you're looking at getting the

         18    information from, you're doing a disservice.

         19              I've been involved with a lot of

         20    trials with Dr. Jim Gilreath and Dr. Dan

         21    Chellemi of the USDA and in doing so we've

         22    developed some very good parameters on the

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          1    barrier films.  We've got some good

          2    documentation on how they work, how they

          3    respond to the methyl bromide and how it

          4    escapes through the films, measured in the

          5    French standard, which is grams per meter,

          6    squared per hour.

          7              I think you need to take that into

          8    consideration, based on your study that you

          9    put up here, regarding buffer zones and the

         10    parts per million and how far away they were.

         11    I think a lot of that can be looked at by

         12    changing the different types of tarps.  I

         13    would encourage you to do that.

         14              Anything I can do to assist you,

         15    I'd be glad to do it.  If you need to get any

         16    of the specific materials, Dr. Jim Gilreath

         17    works with us sometimes as a consultant.  I'm

         18    sure we'd would be glad to, you know, work

         19    with you if you want to get some more

         20    information regarding how these different

         21    tarps could work in conjunction with what

         22    we're all trying to get at, which is a safe

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          1    way to use fumigants.

          2              With the films, we've got a lot of

          3    different ways for testing, we set up a

          4    laboratory in Leesburg called Miller Nelson

          5    Analytical.  They do independent film

          6    samples, where they run them through an

          7    orifice, run methyl bromide through one side,

          8    test the vapor as it goes through the plastic

          9    and measures the backside so we have a very

         10    accurate analysis of the vapor transmission

         11    rate of the materials.

         12              We do that with any film before we

         13    take it to the fields to understand on a

         14    laboratory setting, how it works.  When we

         15    get to the field we have a piece of equipment

         16    called photoionization detector, which tests

         17    for volatile organic compounds.  In a

         18    nutshell, all the chemicals that you put up

         19    there, we can test it with a correction

         20    factor and get the parts per million of how

         21    much of it is contained in the bed or how

         22    much of it is escaping around the perimeter.

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          1              So we have those types of equipment

          2    in-house which we use readily so that when we

          3    go to the field and we're looking at these

          4    different alternatives or looking at the

          5    different rates of reduction, which we've cut

          6    back tremendously over the last three to five

          7    years, and results that we're getting from

          8    it, we have an accurate parts per million

          9    analysis of these programs.

         10              And I would suggest to you that if

         11    any way we can be of benefit, we would be

         12    glad to do it, but I think that your

         13    information, as seen out here today, has been

         14    a little bit outdated, based on the fact that

         15    you're not taking in the current types of

         16    material that we are using.

         17              Don't get up.  Thank you very much.

         18              THE MODERATOR:  Thank you.  That

         19    was pleasant.  Number 28, Jenny Hasley?

         20    Okay, Number 29?

         21              MR. McRIARTY:  Name is Jim

         22    McRiarty, an industrial hygienist,

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          1    toxicologist, have a little bit of experience

          2    with air monitoring as well.  But just on

          3    this aspect, okay, your fumigation manual,

          4    okay, is a good thing, but I think you need

          5    some serious input from both the registrants

          6    and applicators, okay, here.  And need a

          7    possibly -- well, some of these things are

          8    mixed together.

          9              You need one manual for mixtures

         10    and then another separate manual for the

         11    different straight materials.  Time of

         12    application, you can't restrict that too much

         13    because time of application is both day and

         14    period of a day.

         15              All right, in some cases time of

         16    day will be useful or day, like on a weekend

         17    you might want to use a weekend to apply

         18    around the school or you know, or something

         19    like that or extend the holiday on a school

         20    in order to get a job in.

         21              At the beginning of the

         22    re-registration process EPA made a big deal

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          1    about level playing field for all the soil

          2    fumigants, but here I see in the recommended

          3    risk mitigation measures you're comparing

          4    fetal development, eye irritation, eye

          5    irritation and inhalation studies.  You're

          6    not comparing the -- you know, those

          7    effects -- it's fine picking a study for a

          8    final effect.

          9              Pick your target populations that

         10    are experiencing those effects, at the same

         11    time incorporate in the proportion of the

         12    population that will be experiencing any

         13    effect, okay, the duration of time they would

         14    be experiencing effect.  Make the playing

         15    field even.  You have a very uneven

         16    distribution here when you're setting up.

         17              Eye irritation is going to be

         18    developed by every individual, okay.

         19    However, fetal development is only going to

         20    be experienced by -- if someone had to take a

         21    wild guess -- 25 percent or less of the

         22    population, females in child-bearing ages and

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          1    then reduce that to the duration of gestation

          2    that they're in, where they would be affected

          3    by a chemical, okay.  And then they have to

          4    be present in that offsite area where they're

          5    going to be there, so again it's a reduction

          6    in the potential thing of exposure from one

          7    who has irritation to one who is possibly

          8    pregnant.

          9              All right, the other portion was in

         10    regards to your site-specific fumigation

         11    management plans.  They're probably a good

         12    thing, all right, but they do need to be very

         13    flexible, so you have changes in weather,

         14    changes in conditions that can be done.  If

         15    that flexibility is built in when they are

         16    done, then they can be reviewed with an eye

         17    towards those various things.

         18              However, you're also going on the

         19    other side and saying you have responsible

         20    parties.  By pointing out the responsible

         21    parties, you're putting liabilities right

         22    around their neck and if you want somebody to

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          1    review those plans, they then put even more

          2    liability on those reviewers.  So without

          3    indemnification of those reviewers or those

          4    reviewers being in a governmental position

          5    you have no chance of getting them reviewed.

          6              I'm done.

          7              MS. HERNANDEZ:  Hi, my name is

          8    Laura Hernandez and I come from Homestead,

          9    Florida.  I'm going to talk about my own

         10    experience.

         11              In 1978, I started working in

         12    agriculture in Alabama in potato.  In 1979, I

         13    got pregnant and my son, I was working on the

         14    tomato and my son come with the slow learner

         15    disability.

         16              I went to the doctor and the doctor

         17    said that it was related to the chemicals.

         18    But he couldn't be more specific, you know,

         19    that it was directly for that.

         20              He recommend me to change job, so I

         21    start working in the clinic, a CHI as a

         22    health promoter, and working in the CHI I saw

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          1    a lot of my friends, they were working in the

          2    agriculture, losing their babies, having

          3    miscarriage, childs born with birth defects.

          4              I remember this case that there was

          5    this baby with a frog-face and we asked the

          6    hospital to make a study to see if it was

          7    related to the chemical, if they found any

          8    residues of pesticides in the body.  And they

          9    ask us for $900 to do the autopsy and do a

         10    little study, when we collect door by door to

         11    bury this baby.

         12              Other cases is, you know, that my

         13    first son and then for two years I work with

         14    the clinic.  After the clinic, five years

         15    back, I went to the agriculture and now my

         16    younger son has the same problem and I was

         17    working in Tifton, Georgia in tomato as a

         18    crew leader, work in picking tomatoes, and I

         19    have the same problems, my son has the same

         20    DSL, learning disability.

         21              And so the last person that I hear

         22    was a friend of mine, that her husband die in

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          1    the field, drinking water, and he was very

          2    sick, you know, with the chemicals.  And he

          3    was attending the doctors and so the doctors

          4    like I say, you know, that is very expensive

          5    to study if it was the pesticide.

          6              And the Everglades migrant comes

          7    south of Florida City in Dade County, two or

          8    three babies was dying as I —————— that.  And

          9    the Everglades migrant come now is --

         10    Everglades Community Association is in the

         11    middle of fields.

         12              In 1980s, it was toilets.  And so

         13    in the night they -- the plane would spray it

         14    and like I said, every season when the

         15    migrants were working we have two or three

         16    crib deaths, baby dying with -- and like I

         17    said, if you have a report every year from

         18    the CHI clinic in Dade County you're going to

         19    see there is a lot of migrant farmworker

         20    people sick with the chemicals.  And I work

         21    in that, so I know.  That's all.

         22              THE MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Number

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          1    31?  31?  32?

          2              SPEAKER:  ———————— the Pesticide

          3    Action Network North America.  ————————————

          4    ————————————————————————————————.

          5              THE MODERATOR:  One moment please?

          6    Can you give us one moment so I could get a

          7    translator?

          8              SPEAKER:  Okay.

          9              SPEAKER:  (Speaking Spanish)

         10              THE INTERPRETER:  (Simultaneously,

         11    while the Speaker speaks)  I want to talk

         12    about the exposure, you know, to pesticides

         13    that daily workers have when they're on the

         14    field because I've heard today that the

         15    exposure to pesticide is something that it's

         16    due to ————————.  Technically the workers

         17    have heard different stories.  It's not that

         18    it's due to ——————————.  It's the application

         19    workers.

         20              Now, I'm going to talk about

         21    specifically because that's the way they do

         22    it and not that they do it everyday.  They're

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          1    exposed 10 to 12 hours during the season

          2    where the pesticides are supplied.  It's

          3    around two months.

          4              Twenty-five to thirty workers work

          5    in a block.  And the opportunities due to the

          6    kind of job they do is that it's constant

          7    during day because they need to cut the

          8    plastic when they're injecting and they're

          9    putting it underneath the tarp, you know, so

         10    they have different times and they do it

         11    during the day, so there are 25 to 30 workers

         12    and they're exposed too, depending on where

         13    they are because the fumes, they escape.

         14              Though the studies should consider

         15    all the parts involved and all this different

         16    situations it may be inhalation, direct

         17    contact, ocular contact, you know, birth

         18    defects, if somebody is working there while

         19    pregnant, and long term effects, you know,

         20    it's not only exposure, acute exposure in

         21    fact because sometimes the gas comes out in

         22    higher measures because they're working

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          1    continuously during the day and they are

          2    exposed to those fumes for two months or

          3    during the time that the season, so it's also

          4    important.

          5              I have to say again, you know, what

          6    she said before that workers don't report

          7    because they actually, don't do it for

          8    several reasons and you were already told.

          9              It's important to monitor the air

         10    where the workers are to be able to --

         11              SPEAKER:  Oh, I'm sorry, I'm

         12    talking too fast.  Yeah.

         13              THE INTERPRETER:  She needs to get

         14    closer to the mic.  I can't hear her.

         15              SPEAKER:  (Speaking Spanish)

         16              THE INTERPRETER:  -- certain

         17    conditions of the air, you know, so when that

         18    person is working.  Also the method of

         19    applying the tarp, you know, it's the way

         20    they -- how work is explained, you know how

         21    they do it, you know when they -- you have to

         22    think in another way.  Things that something

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          1    that's very serious, the way that they -- the

          2    workers are being exposed.

          3              Well, the protection gear, that

          4    equipment -- it generate -- it's missing,

          5    they don't have it.  And talking about that

          6    equipment, it's not practical, it's not --

          7    due to the weather conditions in Florida,

          8    it's too hot.  You know, workers have said

          9    that even if they had it, you know, they

         10    don't have it though, but they only have the

         11    little things they have, maybe they won't be

         12    able to use it for more than half an hour

         13    because of the weather conditions.

         14              And training also, training is not

         15    for everybody and some people get trained,

         16    although others don't.  And there are several

         17    incidents -- people -- anecdotes, you know,

         18    people who didn't know that they were working

         19    on the field, well, after the -- it was --

         20    the land was fumigated and they sit down on

         21    the plastic for three minutes and they get

         22    burned.

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          1              So we see that they were still

          2    there, the pesticide was there.  And also air

          3    monitoring on the site, but it's also

          4    important to monitor the air in the

          5    community.  Because air quality, it's very

          6    important for people who live there because

          7    there are children there and we need to

          8    insure that that air quality is good, so

          9    that's what we're asking for, so we want for

         10    people to have access to that information.

         11    Air monitoring, so the community could have

         12    their own monitoring system.

         13              Thank you very much.

         14              THE MODERATOR:  Spanish speakers

         15    with numbers, if you could meet with the

         16    translator a few minutes before you get up to

         17    talk it would speed things up.  We've already

         18    made arrangements for a couple of other

         19    speakers.  If there is anyone else, please

         20    see the translator.  Number 32?  Number 33.

         21              MR. SCHIELER:  My name is Damien

         22    Schieler.  I'm an independent consultant and

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          1    I've been involved in -- speak-up?  Turn the

          2    mic up, is that better?  Okay, start over.

          3    Do I get the 4 minutes?

          4              Okay.  My name is Damien Schieler

          5    for the record.  I am an independent

          6    consultant in the Ag Industry.  I've been

          7    involved in agriculture for 32 years.

          8    Started out actually applying methyl bromide

          9    down there, cutting the plastic, riding the

         10    rigs, fumigating flowers -- I did that for

         11    roughly 15 years and then probably ended up

         12    with another 15 years as an Ag distributor

         13    involved in plastic culture, fumigation

         14    materials, and other farm chemicals.

         15              So I have been there, I've been in

         16    the trenches, been there a long time.  I've

         17    overseen and personally fumigated probably in

         18    the area of 15,000 acres, personally oversaw

         19    or sold product, worked on rigs to make sure

         20    they were calibrated properly, in proper

         21    working condition, and solved problems out in

         22    the field on probably another 50,000 or

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          1    60,000 acres.

          2              Yes, I have been exposed at times.

          3    And it is a problem, but it is something you

          4    need to deal with.  I guess what I'm trying

          5    to say is, as far as the exposure, of course

          6    I can't get pregnant, but I haven't had any

          7    problems siring kids either and they are well

          8    and healthy today.

          9              Education is very important in the

         10    handling, safe handling of chemicals and safe

         11    use and application of those chemicals.

         12              Over the past 32 years I've seen

         13    tremendous strides, not only in the labeling

         14    but also in the education, not only of the

         15    applicators but also the workers.  We have a

         16    WPS system, the train-a-trainer system,

         17    pesticide reviews.  Agriculture has lost a

         18    lot of chemicals over the last 20 years,

         19    particularly in the last 10.

         20              These are important chemicals.

         21    Yes, there's good reasons for losing some of

         22    these products, but also it puts the American

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          1    farmer at a disadvantage competing in this

          2    world market.  Those things need to be taken

          3    into consideration.

          4              The fact that we have set-backs,

          5    yes.  Set-backs are reasonable.  Our farming

          6    community is very reasonable.  They are much

          7    more up-to-date on the environment today,

          8    they are much more sensitive.  They are good

          9    stewards to the land.  They have to be

         10    because they live there and they earn a

         11    living off of that land, the same as farm

         12    workers or any and most other people in

         13    agriculture.

         14              Today the American farmer is

         15    disappearing.  We're seeing more and more

         16    corporate operations.  Again, I think it's

         17    got good and bad aspects to it.  On the good

         18    aspect, under corporate environments you're

         19    going to see more enforced pesticide handling

         20    procedure correctly, more training.  Those

         21    things are out there, it needs to be done.

         22              Set-backs, yes, they're reasonable,

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          1    but they need to be reasonable.  They can't

          2    be at half a mile, or three-quarters of a

          3    mile.  Look at what some of the charts are

          4    showing.  We'll lose 99 percent of the

          5    strawberry production in Florida if we go to

          6    the full extent of some of the possibilities

          7    of set-backs.

          8              Again, I'm not going to go over a

          9    lot of things that have been discussed today

         10    because they have talked well, brought up a

         11    lot of statistics.  I'm here to just testify

         12    as a person who has worked in agriculture,

         13    that agriculture is important to the state,

         14    it is important to this country.  And a lot

         15    of things are happening in this country to

         16    put the farmer in a disadvantage and make it

         17    more difficult for this country to be self-

         18    sustaining and, well, I guess that's what I

         19    have to say.

         20              So, thank you very much for

         21    listening to us.  I would urge you to extend

         22    the public comment period, because there is a

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          1    lot of data.  I think there still needs to be

          2    some testing done to confirm some of the

          3    things with different environments -- and

          4    please take that into consideration.  Thank

          5    you for your time.  Have a good day.

          6              MR. VENANGO:  My name is Ale

          7    Venango, director of farming for East Coast

          8    Brokers and Packers.  We operate about 7,000

          9    acres of tomatoes on east coast of United

         10    States, grown in Florida and Virginia.

         11              The buffer zones?  Anything over

         12    100 feet will be devastating, especially, in

         13    our Virginia operation.  Those fields are

         14    small.  There are houses around them, and now

         15    a 300-foot buffer zone in that state would

         16    knock out probably 75 percent of our

         17    production area.

         18              And as far as the small amounts, if

         19    you got 7,000 acres of plastic to lay in a

         20    year, you lay 20 acres a day, you're not

         21    going to make it.  That's the reason we try

         22    to lay more plastic, because we have to.  We

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          1    have to make our planting schedules.

          2              Moving from one field to another

          3    involves moving 7 to 8 pieces of equipment

          4    that's at least 21-feet wide, on a public

          5    highway.  That creates a whole another set of

          6    problems for you.  Virginia Highway Patrol

          7    have a lot to say about that.  So will

          8    Florida.

          9              The relocation of people is very

         10    difficult to do.  Even I have had people call

         11    when they felt they had a problem and I tried

         12    to relocate them, and it is very difficult to

         13    do.

         14              So, and lowering the rates.  We

         15    have lowered the rates.  We have gone to the

         16    heavier plastic and the rates are down to the

         17    low that I can see it impacting.  I see more

         18    nematodes.  I see more —————————— moving in

         19    on us, so we're about as low as we can go at

         20    this point, as far as lowering that.

         21              The PPE?  All for keeping everybody

         22    safe and training people, but I'm really

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          1    concerned about the PPE getting so cumbersome

          2    in the heat and hot weather that they are not

          3    able to work.  And you will have to shuttle a

          4    lot of people in and out of the area, and

          5    expose a lot more people to the fumigant if

          6    possible.

          7              So as far as the comment area, the

          8    time, I think we need more time and I would

          9    also like to encourage you to the

         10    implementation of these new regulations, if

         11    there is any way that we can phase them in,

         12    without it all coming down on us at one time,

         13    because you're only one agency.

         14              We have a meeting like this with

         15    the FDA on Tuesday, and I'm sure there will

         16    be somebody standing in line for the next

         17    week.  So, you know, we're complying with at

         18    least ten to a dozen different agencies.

         19    You're not the only one.  And everybody has

         20    some little something that they want and it

         21    is not that big, but you add it all together,

         22    it gets real big.

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          1              Thank you.

          2              MR. FRANCIS:  Good afternoon.  My

          3    name is Bruce Francis and I represent

          4    Weyerhaeuser Company, southern regeneration

          5    business, and I too thank you for this time

          6    to address this panel.  Weyerhaeuser

          7    Company's southern regeneration business is a

          8    division of their southern timberlands.  We

          9    operate four tree seedling nurseries in the

         10    southeast United States, providing bareroot

         11    pine and hardwood seedlings as well as

         12    containerized seedlings for reforestation.

         13              Since this business began in 1969,

         14    we've produced an excess of 5.5 billion

         15    seedlings that have been planted in the

         16    southeast U.S.  Currently, we produce over

         17    250 million seedlings a year.  Of this, only

         18    30 percent is used internally.  The rest goes

         19    to third-party customers that range from

         20    investment management organizations to forest

         21    industry to private land owners.

         22              Currently, we primarily use methyl

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          1    bromide and chloropicrin injected under tarp.

          2    We've been working the formulations down to

          3    minimum use to achieve our objectives, and

          4    we've have actually begun some limited

          5    production use of Telone chloropicrin under

          6    tarp, as an alternative to MBC.

          7              Since 1979, we've been actively

          8    engaged and spent close to $2 million in

          9    assessing biological and chemical

         10    alternatives to methyl bromide use for soil

         11    fumigation, both independently and with the

         12    Southern Forestry Nursery Cooperative and

         13    Oregon State University Nursery Cooperative.

         14              In 1994, Weyerhaeuser Company

         15    sponsored an alternative methyl bromide

         16    conference in Olympia, Washington and

         17    actually received a commendation from the EPA

         18    for the investigation and case study of

         19    alternatives to fumigants.

         20              The options to ensure the safety

         21    and enhance compliance are performed to some

         22    degree as required by federal regulations or

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          1    their good management practices, and we don't

          2    see these as being overly burdensome.  Issues

          3    such as the site fumigation management plans,

          4    good management practice that can become

          5    burdensome with overzealous bureaucracy.

          6    Defining responsibilities, record keeping,

          7    reporting, and tracking, all are good

          8    responsible agricultural practices.

          9              The mitigation measures that

         10    concern us are buffer zones, sealing methods,

         11    timing of application, application block

         12    limitations, respiratory protection, tarp

         13    cutting and removal, entry restriction and

         14    application method.

         15              All of our nurseries were

         16    originally built in remote areas with no

         17    occupied structures nearby.  There has been

         18    residential encroachment over the years

         19    around several of our nurseries.  And

         20    although we've never had an instance where

         21    nursery operations including soil fumigation

         22    have had a negative impact on bystanders, we

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          1    have gone ahead and purchased land where

          2    possible to protect our boundaries.

          3              Fixed minimum/maximum buffer zones,

          4    because they are a one-size-fits-all

          5    solution, are unworkable, because of the

          6    amount of land they will force out of

          7    production.

          8              The scenario, geographic and site-

          9    specific buffer zones still are highly

         10    problematic, because of all the variables

         11    involved.  We do recognize that they begin to

         12    provide flexibility for actual conditions on

         13    the ground and not drawn in an office.

         14    However, buffer zones of over 100 feet will

         15    still result in the loss of production acres

         16    of one or more of our nurseries.

         17              We currently use high density

         18    tarps, but that's a significant part of the

         19    fumigation cost structure.  VIF or metalized

         20    tarps are currently not feasible, due to

         21    inability to glue seams properly.  And if

         22    these technical difficulties are overcome we

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          1    need to continue to test to see if the costs

          2    can be offset by reduced fumigant use.

          3              Fumigation block is performed by an

          4    independent contractor.  Often more than one

          5    field is treated in a contract.  Any time you

          6    split a field into segments you lose

          7    efficiency and add cost.

          8              As far as respiratory protection,

          9    we support and follow the respiratory

         10    protection requirements provided by the

         11    manufacture's label, including type and fit

         12    testing and do not see a need for added

         13    regulation.

         14              Thank you.

         15              MR. McROLL:  I'm Dean McRoll, the

         16    regeneration manager for Rainier.  And I

         17    wanted to kind of put a face on this thing

         18    today with this graph I put up here.  We grow

         19    as far as tree seedlings for our 1.7 million

         20    acres in the southeast.  Earlier there was a

         21    slide about the impact of the forest

         22    industry.  Even though Georgia is called the

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          1    Peach State, forestry is the biggest business

          2    in the state of Georgia, a $20 billion a year

          3    impact on the state of Georgia.

          4              Just tell you a little bit about

          5    it, this is oldest forestry nursery in the

          6    south under original ownership.  Just this

          7    last year we celebrated our 50th anniversary.

          8    We had a rather big deal with that.  A lot of

          9    local dignitaries, six of our state

         10    representatives and senators and U.S.

         11    Congressman Jack Kingston saw fit to show up

         12    for our celebration.

         13              We're also an integral part of our

         14    community here.  Over the last five years,

         15    we've had 351 school children here at our

         16    nursery for visits.  And each one of those

         17    children has walked away with a tree of their

         18    own and our simulator.  I'll tell you some

         19    real good stories about the children and

         20    their trees.

         21              My major concern is with these

         22    buffer zones, and that's why I did these

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          1    slide.

          2              For many years we've applied

          3    fumigation in this setting without ever

          4    having a worker or bystander issue.  All of

          5    our operational fumigation that is completed

          6    under solid tarp.  We typically fumigate

          7    about 25 acres or less.  All fumigation is

          8    done by a contractor.

          9              Almost all fumigation is completed

         10    in October for sowing that will not occur

         11    until next April.  And you can see on this

         12    slide, the white fields -- this was a photo

         13    at the end of October -- those were done, and

         14    there's no one who reenters those fields

         15    until April of next year.

         16              So there are no worker issues with

         17    this, and we do leave our fumigation tarps --

         18    it is a solid tarp -- we leave them and we're

         19    not pressed for time.  We leave them on for

         20    an extended period of time.

         21              But we do use time of the day

         22    applications for those areas where we are

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          1    impacted on our borders.  It's worked well

          2    for us.  They're right here on this map.

          3    There are 18 offsite occupied home or

          4    businesses within 600 feet of our fields.

          5    Temporarily relocating this number of

          6    households will be rather difficult if not

          7    impossible.  But three of these just happen

          8    to be businesses, which the one at the very

          9    top is a funeral home.  So, relocating those

         10    will be, I think, even more difficult.

         11              If we go even further out up to the

         12    half-mile limit, if you go at the top -- and

         13    it is not on this photo -- you encompass a

         14    large trailer park and we approach almost 50

         15    units.

         16              To leave these fields untreated

         17    would not be a practical solution.  Studies

         18    have shown that without fumigation less than

         19    half of our seedlings produced would be

         20    plantable, and the costs for these seedlings

         21    would increase substantially.

         22              And I'm a bit concerned, based on

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          1    some of the earlier presentations, that we

          2    don't have enough data on solid tarp forest

          3    fumigation to make some of the decisions that

          4    we are making on this.  We need more data on

          5    this.

          6              It is my opinion that our present

          7    fumigation system works well.  I don't think

          8    that the more restrictive applications are

          9    going to improve.  We all know the benefits

         10    of trees -- clean water, clean air -- and I

         11    was telling somebody earlier today, our

         12    company has lost 64,000 acres in the fires

         13    here in this past two months.  And while the

         14    bright spot of that is that it's good for my

         15    business -- I felt good about that -- I'm not

         16    feeling so good about what I'm hearing today.

         17              Thank you.

         18              THE MODERATOR:  37?  38?

         19              MR. ROMERO:  Good afternoon.  My

         20    name is Pedro Jesus Romero.  I'm here talking

         21    as a member of the community, and I thank you

         22    for giving me the opportunity to express

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          1    myself.  But I find it very sad for the time

          2    chosen for this meeting, which is at the same

          3    time that most of the workers whose health is

          4    affected by these chemicals and this

          5    poisoning affect of the fumigants and that

          6    these workers have already left the area, and

          7    have no opportunity to offer their testimony.

          8              I heard a lot about these safety

          9    zones and how to reduce them, to make them

         10    smaller.  But I haven't heard anything about

         11    the dangers that these chemicals are causing

         12    to the ozone layer, its protection.

         13              Neither I haven't heard about the

         14    one —————————— protocol where 160 countries

         15    agree to phase out the use of methyl bromide.

         16    If its destructive effect go as far as the

         17    stratosphere, what can make you believe that

         18    it is not going to go beyond the safety

         19    zones?  Why could it be safe for all of us?

         20              I just want to finish with

         21    something.  Please, let's look to alternative

         22    safer method for the agriculture, so to

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          1    balance the ecological system and the health

          2    of the earth for future generations to come.

          3              Thank you.

          4              THE MODERATOR:  Number 39.

          5              SPEAKER:  (Spanish spoken)

          6              THE INTERPRETER:  I work for the

          7    association, and I've come from Homestead and

          8    we train people.  We have been basically

          9    trained to how to protect themselves against

         10    pesticides.  During the training sessions, we

         11    hear the testimonies of the people.

         12              Well, the chemicals are always

         13    there.  They are before the harvest and after

         14    the harvest and that some of the people that

         15    work there they get shortness of breath, and

         16    they are afraid to report because some of

         17    them don't even speak English, so they are

         18    afraid to report.  Some of them are from

         19    Guatemala and they don't even speak English.

         20    So that's what is going on at the present

         21    time.

         22              I think that is very important and

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          1    that what we have talked to, and stay here

          2    and we should follow up everything we have

          3    said so far, because training is very

          4    important and people are talking also about

          5    equipment.  So I think that if you have

          6    equipment available for your workers, I think

          7    that you care about their health.  So that's

          8    why I think it is important that we could

          9    follow up.

         10              But I also know about employers

         11    that put their employees to work without any

         12    training and working with chemicals without

         13    any training and they don't have any kind of

         14    equipment.

         15              We in our association, we train the

         16    workers how to work safely and also we give

         17    them this brochure and I'm going to give you

         18    this brochure so you could have it.

         19              Now, we'll allow for this to have

         20    some follow-up.  Thank you so much.

         21              THE MODERATOR:  Number 40.

         22              SPEAKER:  (Spanish spoken)

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          1              THE INTERPRETER:  Well, my name is

          2    Christo Va Kalsara.  I first started working

          3    in the '80s -- 1980 -- and my first job was

          4    cutting plastic, cutting the tarps, and

          5    taking care of that section.

          6              Well, after a while, many years

          7    after, I started itching, my whole body

          8    started itching.  My nose, my ears, my eyes.

          9    I had watery eyes that had a lot of water and

         10    then phlegm and at night, especially at

         11    night, a lot of saliva.

         12              Well, we work many hours.  We

         13    actually work from 8 to 10 hours, you know,

         14    and we are exposed to pesticides and also the

         15    gas that comes out of the tarp when we work

         16    with plastics.

         17              I stopped working there like eight

         18    years ago, but I now have symptoms still,

         19    because I'm kind of shaky and it looks like

         20    Parkinson's disease, but it is not

         21    Parkinson's.  It's just the results of my

         22    performance there.

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          1              THE MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Number

          2    41.

          3              SPEAKER:  (Spanish spoken.)

          4              THE INTERPRETER:  Good afternoon.

          5    My name is Norveto Humanis.  I'm a member of

          6    the coalition of Amakali (?) workers.  I'm

          7    here representing my companions who, like

          8    myself, work picking tomatoes in Amakali.

          9              And I'm a worker and I have lived

         10    and worked in these conditions firsthand in

         11    my own flesh and blood, and I have worked

         12    with the plastic and I have cut the plastic

         13    and when you lift it up, you start to

         14    immediately cry and the mucus starts coming

         15    out of your nose.  And you're very much

         16    affected by these chemicals.

         17              And I'm not against these chemicals

         18    in and of themselves, because we know that

         19    without them we can't produce the plants.

         20    But what I'm here to say is that we need to

         21    take steps so that these chemicals will not

         22    affect human beings the way that they are

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          1    doing right now.

          2              And I'm here not only to talk about

          3    what happens to the men in the fields, but

          4    also the women, and in particular the ones

          5    who are pregnant.  And like a lot of people

          6    have said here today, it's true that women

          7    working in the fields who are pregnant have

          8    had babies that have come out deformed and

          9    missing parts of their bodies.

         10              And even when we are working

         11    normally on a day to day basis, when we are

         12    reaching into the plant and spreading it

         13    apart to be able to grab the tomatoes, we

         14    feel those chemicals coming out from those,

         15    the machines that have sprayed on those

         16    plants, and we feel the burning sensation and

         17    everything.

         18              And there in the course of the work

         19    day when we want to stop for a few minutes

         20    and eat something, there are fields where

         21    there isn't even water for us to wash our

         22    hands with.  So many times we have to go wash

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          1    our hands in a ditch which is also

          2    contaminated with the same chemicals.  For

          3    these reasons, this is why there's a lot of

          4    workers in our community of Amakali who are

          5    sick right now.

          6              And so today I'm here to ask you

          7    people on the table, what you are going to do

          8    to defend our rights and our health, and

          9    because obviously a lot of the people in this

         10    room are here to defend their interest and

         11    their production and that's fine, but we also

         12    want to make people remember that we are also

         13    a part of this, and we are also human beings,

         14    and we need our rights and our health to be

         15    looked after also.

         16              And I come from Oaxaca, Mexico, and

         17    a lot of times people demand that the

         18    products that we provide be organic and free

         19    of chemicals.  And why is that here in this

         20    country things are allowed to be made with so

         21    many chemicals in them?  And I think this is

         22    something that's bad, not only for the health

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          1    of workers, but also for also for consumers.

          2              And I just ask all the people up

          3    there on the table to keep all these things

          4    in mind, and that there are many of us

          5    workers in Amakali who are being severely

          6    affected by all these chemicals.  And I hope

          7    that everything that we talked about today in

          8    this dialog will produce something favorable

          9    for us as the workers.

         10              Thank you.

         11              MR. ONESS:  Good afternoon and

         12    thank you.  I'll speak English instead of my

         13    native language as we don't have an

         14    interpreter.  It's a little bit of a joke, to

         15    have some humor here.  My name is Oness, and

         16    I'm going to speak for myself.

         17              I want to mention four items

         18    briefly, but before, what is most important

         19    is that EPA extends the comment time period.

         20    There are many so-called stakeholders that

         21    are not represented here, especially in the

         22    environment and community, grassroots

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          1    community, that is very much affected from a

          2    lot of agriculture and forest chemicals and

          3    fumigants.

          4              Briefly I want to mention I'm a

          5    Native American biologist, and since the age

          6    of 14 I have worked in agriculture and

          7    horticulture.  And I will tell you, part of

          8    the reason why I'm in a wheel chair is

          9    because I was contaminated years ago as a

         10    teenager in my youth long before EPA cared

         11    about, or was supposed to care about, health

         12    and the environment and social justice.

         13              I spent 6 years as a university

         14    biologist, specifically as a field biologist

         15    doing environmental monitoring impact

         16    assessment of pesticides and agriculture in

         17    forestry, and I worked under the soil

         18    scientist, Dr. Struckmeyer, and anyone that

         19    knows much about pesticides and soils, knows

         20    that he is one of the primary authors of that

         21    subject in university curriculum.

         22              And so I'm qualified to speak about

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          1    the few biological impacts I'm going to

          2    briefly mention.  But my concern is that --

          3    and it was expressed by, I believe it was the

          4    representative of the Florida Department of

          5    Agriculture -- that many government agencies

          6    including yours, EPA, does not have the

          7    scientific, or financial, or staff resources

          8    to do real, serious environment monitoring.

          9              I am very concerned about the

         10    so-called Growers Certification Project.

         11    I've seen first hand that a lot of the so-

         12    called training programs are nothing more

         13    than almost weekend barbecues, where a lot of

         14    the growers really do not have field training

         15    manuals, do not have competent people

         16    instructing their staff or workers.

         17              And when you compound that problem

         18    with a lot of workers who are not English

         19    speakers, who perhaps might be undocumented,

         20    what the attorney said here earlier, which I

         21    don't know her, but I can tell you as a

         22    journalist covering this issue for many

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          1    years, that she's absolutely correct that

          2    there are many incidents that happen

          3    throughout the southeast that do not go

          4    reported.

          5              And also those issues that are

          6    reported are primarily acute incidents.  I'm

          7    concerned about long-term chronic impacts of

          8    soil fumigants.  And getting back to what I

          9    said about environmental monitoring, in 1977

         10    the National Academy of Sciences report,

         11    about what constitutes environmental

         12    monitoring and impact assessment, has never

         13    yet even been scientifically continued in,

         14    now, 2007.  So, there's a real serious

         15    problem about environmental monitoring with

         16    federal and state agencies, and to expect

         17    growers or the pesticide industry to do that

         18    is even more absurd.

         19              Last but not least, I was very

         20    upset about the so-called IFIS

         21    representative.  Here is a person being

         22    employed by public money, public state

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          1    university institution, talking about that

          2    there was really little problems or

          3    environmental health impacts, or health

          4    impacts to the environment from soil

          5    fumigants.

          6              And that person should really be

          7    working for the Nuclear Regulatory

          8    Commission, if you believe his statements.

          9              So I was very upset about this idea

         10    of, again, issue of enforcement, issue of

         11    environmental monitoring, issue of safety

         12    training.  There really needs to be a lot

         13    more thought going into this, and it must be

         14    done by forced agency regulations, not

         15    volunteer by the industry.

         16              Last but not least, this is an

         17    issue of environmental justice.  And I really

         18    can't stress upon you the fact that the

         19    Florida's ecosystem is very different from

         20    other places, not just the biological

         21    conditions, but the socioeconomic conditions,

         22    and you really need to really be very

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          1    specific about not letting industry and

          2    agriculture fool you into thinking that the

          3    sky is falling.

          4              You really need to implement buffer

          5    zones.  You really need to implement these

          6    mitigation measures that you were

          7    considering, like residency times, and many

          8    other things.  So I will be presenting things

          9    in written comment.

         10              Thank you.

         11              THE MODERATOR:  Thank you all for

         12    dealing with my iron fist today, not too much

         13    grumbling about that, and I appreciate it,

         14    and we are on time.  Because of that we're

         15    able to hopefully get you out on the road

         16    before it gets too rainy.

         17              There are some wrap-up comments by

         18    the EPA.  I'd like to state again that my

         19    name is Jennifer Julette.  My business cards

         20    and my information are on the back table.  So

         21    if you have any issue with my representation

         22    today, you are welcome to pick up whatever

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          1    you'd like and send a letter, a nastygram

          2    because I cut you off, or send a thank-you.

          3    I like the thank-yous.

          4              So, I'd also like to encourage you

          5    to look at our website and some of the IFIS

          6    recommendations, and what IFIS has been doing

          7    with some of this methyl bromide research.

          8              ———————————————————————————————————

          9    ——————————————————————— quite far away as did

         10    we.  But I think in our case at least we

         11    really feel it was worth it, because we got

         12    to hear from all of you.  We really hope that

         13    you will take seriously our offer, and take

         14    advantage of the opportunity to provide

         15    written comments as well to the docket.

         16              What helps us tremendously is to

         17    have actual data and information that we can

         18    use to document our decisions.  And so,

         19    anything you have at all in that area will be

         20    very helpful, in addition to your ideas about

         21    future research that we might do in the out

         22    years as we move forward on these decisions.

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          1              So again, thank you very much.  We

          2    intend to take all these comments, as I said,

          3    transcribe them, put them in the docket, and

          4    we are going to very carefully consider them.

          5    We are going to extend the comment period.

          6              So, thank you for coming.

          7                   (Whereupon, the PROCEEDINGS were

          8                   adjourned.)

          9

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         12                       *  *  *  *  *

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