Document ID: EPA-HQ-OA-2002-0001-0027
Agency: epa
Document Type: Supporting & Related Material
Title: 
Posted Date: 2003-07-24T04:00Z

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1
THIRD
ANNUAL
EPA/
STATE/
TRIBAL
MBE/
WBE
CONFERENCE
VOLUME
I1
JUNE
29,
2000
HILTON
HOTEL
ALBUQUERQUE,
NEW
MEXICO
JEANETTE
BROWN,
DIRECTOR
OSDBU
MARK
GORDON,
OSDBU
COUNSEL
PATRICIA
HIRSCH,
OGC
ELEANOR
RAMSEY,
Ph.
D
FRANK
CARPENTER,
HOWARD
UNIVERSITY
KEN
REDDEN,
OGC
*
­.
rn
W
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2
MADAM
:
Good
morning.
Can
we
ask
everyone
on
the
outside
to
come
in.
Thank
you.
We
are
ready
to
start.
Given
everything
that
you've
heard
in
the
discussions
yesterday,
and
we
do
appreciate
the
discussions,
they
were
lively,
good,
stimulating
and
it's
given
us
a
lot
of
things
that
we
need
to
go
back
and
take
a
look
at,
and
we
will
in
fact
do
that.

After
you've
had
a
chance
to
sleep
on
it,

is
there
anything
else
that
you
thought
of
that
you
would
like
to
raise
at
this
time?
Any
questions,

questions
on
the
proposed
rule,
any
question
you
may
­
have
had
and
you
didn't
raise
it
yesterday?
Now
is
your
opportunity.
Don't
be
too
shy.
Yes,
I
need
some
help
with
the
mic.

PIS.
PATRICIA
LOVING:
Patricia
Loving,

Texas
Water
Development
Board,
Austin,
Texas,
1700
North
Congress
Avenue,
Austin,
78711.
.
­

MADAM
CHAIR:
Is
that
on?

MS.
PATRICIA
LOVING:
Can
you
hear
me
now?
Patricia
Loving,
Texas
Water
Development
Board,

Austin,
1700
North
Congress
Avenue.
I'm
just
still
seeking
some
clarification
on
how
those,
what
the
thinking
is
for
the
exemptions,
either
the
100,000
or
$
250,000,
and
because
the
­
­
is
it
correct
then
that
if
we
give
a
loan,
SRF
program,
if
we
give
a
loan
to
an
I
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entity
that
would
be
under
one
of
those
dollar
amounts,

that
they
don`
t
need
to
negotiate
a
fair
share
goal
with
us?
Is
that
what
the
intent
is?

Could
someone
just
clarify
for
me
a
little
bit
more?
I
would
appreciate
that,
Mark,
because
if
that's
the
intent,
that
we
don't
negotiate
with
them,

what
goal
­
­
will
we
put
a
goal
in
their
contract?

MADAM
CHAIR:
NO.

MS.
PATRICIA
LOVING:
We
will
have
to
do
all
the
positive
good­
faith
efforts.

MR.
KEN
REDDEN:
And
reporting,

MS.
PATRICIA
LOVING:
And
reporting,
I
got
it.
Thank
you.
So
we
would
not
put
anything
under
contract
for
percentages?

MR.
KEN
REDDEN:
Right.

MS.
PATRICIA
LOVING:
Thank
you.

MS.
DEBORA
BRADFORD:
She
just
made
a
statement
on
SRF,
did
they
make
a
choice.
If
it
amounts
­
­
what
I'm
saying
is,
on
the
SRF,
is
it
250,000
but
then
you
have
a
general
exemption,
do
they
have
a
choice?
­
I
MADAM
CHAIR:
There
are
three
exemptions,

MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
Exemptions
posed
in
the
alternative
for
SRF,
the
first
two
are
just
exempting
them
from
the
good­
faith
goal
negotiation,
I
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4
and
there's
a
100,000
1
t
and
a
250,000
dollar
limit.

And
then
there's
a
third
alternative
proposed
that
would
exempt
them
from
everything
but
reporting
for
identified
loans
under
250,000.
F
o
r
all
the
alternatives,
they
would
be
­
­

MADAM
CHAIR:
And
then
there
is
the
overall
$
100,000
exemption
across
the
board
for
all
programs.
Ellie?

MS.
ELLIE
WEBB:
Ellie
Webb,
I
work
at
Department
of
Inspections
and
Appeals,
Des
Moines,

Iowa.
I
have
a
real
problem
with
that
third
exception.

I
believe
that
good­
faith
efforts
is
good
business
practice,
and
I
don't
think
there
should
be
an
exception
to
good­
faith
efforts.

MADAM
CHAIR:
Thank
you.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
David
Burke,
Office
of
the
Attorney
General,
Baltimore,
Maryland.
Where
did
this
concept
of
the
borrower
negotiating
with
the
state,
the
goal?
I
don't
see
that
­
­
I
don't
see
any
legal
basis
for
that.
I
see
a
legal
basis
for
the
­
\
I
state
negotiating,
establishing,
if
you
will,
agreeing
with
EPA
as
to
what
the
state's
goal
will
be,
and
I
see
where
there
is
an
awful
lot
of
responsibility
on
the
state
seeing
to
it
that
its
loans
comply
with
the
program,
but
I've
heard
several
times
mentioned
that
1
F"

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10
11
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1
3
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2
2
c;;
l
2
3
there
would
be
negotiations
with
the
borrower
specific
to
a
particular
loan,
and
4:
don't
see
it.
Could
you
show
me
with
where
that
is3
MIS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
Where
that
comes
from
is
the
marching
orders
we
have
that
any
goal
has
to
be
related
to
the
availability
in
the
area
of
solicitation.
So
you're
right,
if
the
area
of
solicitation
is
the
same
as
the
state,
they
can
just
use
the
state
goal.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
We
discussed
yesterday
the
geographically
specific,
but
where
is
it
written
that
the
local
jurisdictions
get
to
determine
what
the
availability
is
or
what
the
goal
would
be?
I
understand
it
has
to
be
based
on
geographical.
Did
you
understand
the
question?

MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
Right.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
The
distinction,
because
I
think
it's
very
important,
particularly
if
EPA
wants
to
see
the
state
be
the
central
force
for
compliance,

and
I
don't
see
anywhere
in
the
regs
where
individual'

borrowers
get
to
negotiate
what
the
goal
will
be.
As
I
understand
it,
a
condition
of
a
loan
has
to
be
that
they
will
work
in
the
good­
faith
effort
­
­
excuse
me
­
­

that
they
will
work
towards
the
goal.
If
they
don't
like
it,
they
don/
t
have
to
enter
into
the
loan
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agreement.

MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
Right.
Thank'
you,

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Could
you
comment,
where
­
is
the
legal
basis?

MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
I
think
the
choice,

where
we
looked
at
it
is
in
the
borrower
choosing
their
area
of
solicitation
and
things
being
driven
by
that.

If
a
state
wants
to
say,
"
all
our
borrowers
for
identified
loans
have
to
use
our"
­
­
whatever
you've
gotten
set
up
already
for
goals,
area
of
relevant
market
areas
for
your
goals,
I
don't
know
that
there
would
be
any
problem
in
that.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
I
think
you
are
missing
the
distinction
I'm
trying
to
make.
For
sake
of
argument
1/
11
buy
that
there's
a
legal
basis
for
being
geographically
specific.
All
right.
The
problem
I
had
is
what
is
the
basis
for
the
local
jurisdiction
running
the
show
with
respect
to
availability
or
disparity
and
getting
to
have
a
vote
as
to
what
that
is.
Do
you
see
the
­
­

MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
I
donlt
know
that
we
have
a
problem
if
the
state
wants
to
drive
that.
If
the
state
wants
to
sayI
"
You're
going
to
use
this
area
of
solicitation,"
we
don't
­
­

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
No,
no,
no.
Let's
say
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i
a
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2
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2
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2
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2
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the
state
does
the
study
or
the
local
jurisdiction
comes
up
with
a
study
and
it's
a
bogus
study
and
t
state
doesnrt
buy
it.
This
concept
of
local,
the
borrowers
running
the
show
or
having
a
vote
on
the
state
seeing
to
this
compliance,
I
think
itfs
a
totally
new
concept,
and
I
would
like
to
know
the
legal
basis
for
it.
And
again,
I
understand
what
you're
saying
.
about
the
study
that
will
support
it
to
be
specific
to
that
geographical
area
who
calls
the
shots.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
I
would
like
to
ask
you
a
question
along
the
lines
of
what
Pat
said.
Maybe
we
could
rethink
this
and
just
basically
say
that
the
state
will
have
to
require
its
loan
recipients
to
use
the
state
relevant
geographic
area
that
the
state
uses
and,
that
way,
if
we
were
to
do
that,
there
wouldn't
be
any
need
for
localities
or
the
borrowers
to
do
anything,
they
would
use
numbers
that
would
just
get
plugged
in.
How
would
you
feel
about
that,
if
that
was
what
was
decided?

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
That
would
resolve
that
issue,
I
think
it
would,
in
terms
of
local
jurisdictions,
I
would
imagine
we
will
have
resistance
on
that.
Y4­
1
MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
I
mean,
I
think
that
option
is
in
the
draft
right
now
for
the
state
to
do
1
E""
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18
(!
J
2
0
p9
2
2
i
8
that,
just
say,
flYourre
going
to
use
our
goalO8l
We
were
trying
to
allow
the
flexibility
for
the
locals
to
I
have
an
out,
if
they
wanted
to
use
a
different
relevant
geographic
market
to
work
that
out
with
the
state.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
That's
another
thing
altogether.
And
I
don't
know
if
I
mentioned
this
yesterday,
but
off
the
top
of
my
head,
one
alternative
could
be,
if
the
state's
goal
shall
be
the
goal
for
all
loans,
unless,
unless
the
local
jurisdiction
has
done
a
study
and
has
been
approved
by
the
EPA
just
like
the
states.
The
state's
study
has
to
be
approved
by
the
authority
and
EPA.
Then
youIre
not
going
to
have
abuse.
You're
not
going
to
create
an
industry
where
people,
consultants
do
studies
to
get
out
of
­
­

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
D
o
you
have
a
problem
with
that,
the
privity
issue,
since
we
are
not
in
privity
­
­
the
possible
legal
problem
with
that
is
we
are
not
in
privity
with
the
borrowers.
We
are
only
in
privity
with
the
state.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Well,
but
the
regs
could
still
read
the
state
study
shall
prevail
unless
the
local
jurisdiction
has
done
a
study
and
you've
approv
that
study.
I
don't
­
­
why
would
you
have
to
be
in
privity
with
the
­
­
I
mean,
all
of
these
requirements,

you
are
not
in
privity
with
the
borrower,
yet
the
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4
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5
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1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
borrower
has
to
comply
with
a
myriad
of
other
aspects
of
the
reg.

MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
But
we
are
requiring
the
state
to
do
that.
The
requirements
are
on
the
state
to
do
certain
things
with
the
borrower.
We
are
not
­
­
itls
not
for
us
to
deal
directly
with
the
borrower.
I
get
what
you're
saying.
We
will
have
to
look
at
that.

MADAM
CHAIR:
We
will
look
at
it.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Okay.

MADAM
CHAIR:
Give
it
some
serious
thought
e
MR.
GARRY
KUYKENDALL:
Garry
Kuykendall,

Arkansas
Soil
&
Water
Conservation,
101
East
Capital,

Suite
350,
Little
Rock,
Arkansas.
And
I
would
like
to
piggy­
back
on
what
he's
talking
about.
And
I
talked
to
talk
Connie,
she
works
with
this
more
than
I
do.
On
our
goals,
we
don't
have
a
problem
with
setting
the
state
goals.
It's
a
problem
when
you
get
into
these
small
towns.

We
had
one
of
our
towns,
we
asked
for
money
from
EPA,
we
simply
asked
for
it,
and
it
took
out
that
town
in
an
uproar
and
she
was
about
to
drop
the
whole
program.
And
I
think
these
small
towns,
they
want
the
money
to
improve
their
water,
to
get
better
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3
4
5
6
7
8
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10
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18
water
situations,
but
when
you
place
certain
requirements
on
any
of
them,
they
don't
have
the
manpower
on
the
phones
or
anything
to
do
this.

And
P
thought
that,
what
works
for
us
that
what
we
was
doing
is
setting
a
statewide
goal
for
the
state
of
Arkansas.
And
I
`
m
afraid
that
what
we
are
going
to
do
with
the
SRP
program
is
not
going
to
be
able
to
help
the
community
to
get
the
better
water,
you
know,
programs.
Because
if
we
start
putting
more
requirements
on
them,
especially
on
that
kind
of
studies,
because
some
of
these
towns
are
only
lo­,

15,000
people.
Some
are
8,000,
2,000.
They
are
very
small
towns.
And
the
population
in
Southern
County
is
very
small.
So
I
think
they
would
have
a
hard
time,

and
maybe
wouldn't
take
the
program
serious
and
we
could
not
loan
the
money
out.

And,
and
it's
the
state
that
does
that,
as
far
as,
if
youIre
a
big
enough
state,
you
could
break
it
down
in
quarters,
sort
of
where
your
population
is
at,
so
you
can
maybe
work
on
that
issue
in
big
towns.

But
some
of
these,
some
of
these
towns
got
very
small
towns.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
Can
I
ask
you
a
question.
Do
you
know
in
your
state
how
these
small
towns
did
their
projects?
Did
they
bid
them
the
same
c
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11
way
the
state
does
now?

MR,
GARRY
KUYKENDALL:
Yes.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
If
they
bid
them
the
same
as
the
state,
then
they
would
just
use
the
state
goal.

MR.
GARRY
KUYKENDALL:
We
stress
using
our
will
have
when
sitt
than
own
goals
and
use
the
six
good­
faith
classe
s,
and
there
be
a
process
and
do
all
of
that,
and
they
don't
no
problem
with
that,
but
I
think
the
problem
is
you
make
them
do
goals.
And
then
their
money
is
ng
there
and
their
water
situation
is
no
better
what
it
was.
­\

`
3
,
L"/
_­

MS.
DIONE
ALEXANDER:
Dione
Alexander
Wayne
County
Department
of
Environment.
415
Clifford,

Detroit,
Michigan,
48226.
I
guess,
taking
the
counter­
point
to
the
state`
s
attorney
general,
I
believe
strongly
in
local
home
rule
and,
I
think,
as
I
read
the
draft,
that
if
the
local
rules
have
had
a
different
geographic
parameter
than
the
state,
then
the
onus
was
on
them
to
provide
some
study.
If
your
1
parameters
were
the
same,
you
had
no
issue.
And
I
think
it`
s
relevant
for
all
states
because,
if
you
look
at
most
states,
the
urban
population
may
be
differently
represented
than
the
state
as
a
whole.

For
example,
in
Michigan,
most
of
our
9
10
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
1
6
1
7
1
8
1
9
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
12
minority
or
disadvantaged
businesses
will
be
in
one
of
the
urban
centers
outside
of
the
areas,
so
my
county
will
be
very
different
geographically
or
demographically
from
the
state
as
a
whole.
So
the
onus
would
be
on
me
to
provide
that
burden
of
proof
or
evidence
that
I
was
different.
But
if
you
are
working
under
the
same
parameters,
I
think
it's
a
moot
point,

and
I
would
really
not
like
to
see
the
draft
rule
weakened
by
saying
that
local
governments
who
wanted
to
provide
that
kind
of
supporting
information
could
not
provide
it,
and
that
they
had
to
absolutely
be
held
to
the
state
standards,
which
is
going
to
eliminate
a
lot
of
your
minority
women­
owned
businesses
who
are
in
urban
centers.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
It
was
never
intended
to
eliminate
those
counties
and
other
types
of
districts
that
negotiate
separately.

MS.
DIONE
ALEXANDER:
This
isn't
a
ma
of
separate
negotiation,
what
Ifm
hearing
in
the
changes
that
are
being
proposed
on
the
day
it
is
right
now
is
that
you
are
contemplating,
as
a
result
of
the
some
of
the
conversation,
that
the
state
rule
will
be
absolute.
And
I'm
hearing,
what
if
we
told
the
local
governments
you
just
had
to
go
with
the
state
rule,
and
I
would
not
like
to
see
that
inflexibility
in
there.

'
L
1
I
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
1
7
1%

19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
For
me
itrs
not
an
issue
because
I
do
negotiate
separately,
but
I
think
i
t
V
s
an
issue
for
the
universal
body
here
in
that
1
think
there
are
many
other
communities
who
might
want
to
have
a
different
standard
than
the
state
because
their
demographics
are
different
or
the
geographic
parameters
are
different,
so
itls
an
aside
from
the
separately
negotiated
goals.

MADAM
CHAIR:
I
see
a
number
of
heads
shaking
this
way,
as
well
as
the
other
way.
We
will
take
it
back,
all
of
this
back
and
look
at
it
and
see
how
we
can,
keeping
in
mind
what
we've
heard
here,
and
I'm
sure
your
comments
that
will
be
coming
in
in
writing,
take
all
of
them
under
consideration.
I
can't
tell
you
how
we`
re
going
to
end
up,

Any
other
questions?
Do
you
have
a
question,
Robert?

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
No.

MADAM
CHAIR:
No.
Okay.
No
other
questions
in
the
room?

MR.
KEN
SH.
IDER:
Ken
Shider,
New
York
State
Environment
Facilities
Corporation.
After
you
c
B
receive
all
of
our
comments,
suggestions,

I
recommendations,
whatever
by
August
31;
and
aftef
you've
had
a
chance
to
review
these
comments
or
whatever,
will
there
be
a
second
revision
document
for
f
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
12
13
14
15
16
17
1%

19
20
21
22
23
24
25
14
us
to
review
and
look
at
before
its
final?
Thank
you.

MADAM
CHAIR:
ItJs
my
guess,
given
all
of
the
comments
that
welve
received
this
week,
we
will
probably
have
a
second
draft,
and
then
we"
1
put
that
out
via
the
internet
and
mail
and
we'll
get
it
to
the
regional
MBE­
WBE
programs
to
distribute
all
those
to
the
state
reps.
And
hopefully
it
will
be
posted
to
our
web
site
as
soon
as
possible
because
of
the
difficulties.
It's
also
on
Mason
Tillmans
web
site,
so
just
keep
your
eyes
and
ears
posted
and
tune
in.

As
soon
as
we
come
up
with
something,

we"
1
get
it
out,
Most
likely
we
will
send
out
a
second
draft
before
we
go
to
the
proposed
rule
to
the
Federal
Register.
And
then
there's
a
chance
for
comments
then
as
well,
so
you
probably
get
three
shots
at
it.
This
one,
another
one,
and
then
the
proposed
rule
itself
in
the
Federal
Register
after
2001,
into
early
2001.
So
that
gives
everybody,
I
think,
enough
time,
but
you
are
helping
us
shape
what
we
end
up
with
now.
Any
other
questions?
That's
it?
Therels
one
in
the
back
­
­
two
in
the
back.

MR.
HAROLD
RAINS:
This
doesn't
really
pertain
to
the
rule,
but
I
had
an
interesting
discussion
with
an
attorney
this
morning
at
breakfast,

from
New
York,
who
had
defended
as
a
defending
attorney
15
a
woman
in
New
York
who
was
registered
within
the
MBE­
WBE
program
as
owning
seven
different
constru
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
2
3
24
25
companies.
How
are
you
going
to
address
that
so
things
like
that
stop?
She
didn't
know
any
of
them.
She
had
no
ownership
in
any
of
them,
but
they
were
all
registered
all
in
her
name.

MADAM
CHAIR:
Could
you
give
your
name
and
your
office.

MR
Health
Division.

MAD
MR.
HAROLD
RAINS:
The
City
Board
and
M
CHAIR:
Address.

HAROLD
RAINS:
800
Northeast
Oregon
Street,
Portland,
Oregon,
97232.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
Was
she
prosecuted.

MR.
HAROLD
RAINS:
Yes.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
What
happened?

MR.
HAROLD
RAINS:
She
was
acquitted.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
She
was
acquitted?

MR,
HAROLD
RAINS:
Yes,
on
all
charges.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
When
you
know
about
those
kinds
of
things
you
can
call
them
to
EPA's
attention
and
we
will
refer
them
to
the
Department
of
Justice.
EPA
itself
does
not
prosecute
those
kinds
of
cases
in
court,
but
we
can,
depending
on
the
max,
there
are
remedies
that
we
can
try
to
take,
but
we
wouldn't
t
2
9
10
11
12
13
17
18
20
p9
22
cll
23
16
try
to
prosecute
somebody
criminally.

debarred?
MADAM
CHAIR:
Were
those
companies
MR.
HAROLD
RAINS:
I'm
sorry?

MADAM
CHAIR:
We
do
have
a
process
in
the
federal
government,
when
something
like
that
happens,

and
there's
a
falsification
of
information,
a
company
this
large
can
be
debarred
from
getting
federal
funds.

MR.
HAROLD
RAINS:
He
didn't
tell
me
all
the
pertinent
information,
I
guess,
for
client
privilege
reasons,
but
he
said
that
it
was
interesting
khat
she
managed
to
get
away
with
it.

MR.
MARK
GORDON:
Maybe
criminally,
but
as
Jeanette
said,
they
can
be
debarred.
They
can
be
suspended
from
doing
business
with
the
government
for
a
certain
period
of
time.
And
they
can
be
even
be
barred.

MR.
HAROLD
RAINS:
My
question
is,
is
there
anything
you
can
do
in
this
rule
to
prevent
that
from
happening?
Is
this,
is
the
private
certification
or
state
certification
going
to
solve
that?
­
d
MR.
KEN
REDDEN:
One
thing,
I
mean
we
heard
comments
earlier
about
self­
certification
for
women
and
that
idea
of
having
that
in
the
final
rule
is
something
that
we
are
going
to
think
about,
talk
about
e!
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
2
3
2
4
2
5
17
more
closely
after
this
conference.
So
weBre
aware
of
the
concerns,
you
know,
with
broadening
the
situation
and
we
will
definitely
discuss
whether
self­

certification
will
remain
for
women
business.
That's
one
thing
we
are
thinking
about,

up
to
prevent
fraud
from
occurring.
how
to
tighten
things
MS,
MARY
KATHERINE
BROWN:
One
area
that
is
causing
some
concern
is
the
­
­
18m
sorry.
Mary
Katherine
Brown,
from
Mississippi.
One
area
of
concern
is
the
new
provision
where
even
after
the
fair­
share
goals
have
been
achieved,
that
continued
efforts
are
required.
In
construction
projects,
this
may
become
a
problem
on
our
loan
recipients
because
once
construction
contracts
are
awarded,

of
procurement
that
occurs
under
them
is
change
orders
procurement,
and
usually
work
is
in
progress.
the
only
other
type
So
for
them
to
have
to,
at
that
time,
go
through
the
six
affirmative
steps,
what
will
happen
to
many
of
our
loan
recipients
is
the
contractor,
the
construction
contractor
is
going
to
request
time
extensions
in
order
to
meet
the
requirements
and
those
kinds
of
things
are
going
to
end
up
being
more
costly
to
the
project.
So
I
don't
know
how
you
can
do
anything
about
that
other
than
to
perhaps
look
at
maybe
the
types
of
procurement
that
you
are
going
to
require
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
17
18
2
2
c;
l
2
3
3
2
4
continued
efforts
on.

MADAM
CHAIR:
When
you,
when
you
talk
about
construction
and
youlre
talking
about
the
change
orders,
are
those
new
procurements?

THE
PUBLIC:
NO.

MS.
MARY
KATHERINE
BROWN:
NO
­
­
well,

couPd
be.

MADAM
CHAIR:
Or
are
they?

MS.
MARY
KATHERINE
BROWN:
Because
the
only
requirement
under
construction
is
that
the
procurement
be
within
the
scope
of
the
original
project,
so
it
could
be
a
nqw
procurement.
What
is
being
procured
could
be
new,
but
it
meets
the
change
order
requirement,
because
it's
in
the
original
scope
I
of
the
contract.

MADAM
CHAIR:
So
you're
saying
even
if
it's
a
new
requirement,
if
they
met
that
goal,
they
shouldnct
have
to
go
through
the
six
affirmative
steps
on
a
new
or
any
new
procurement?

MS.
MARY
KATHERINE
BROWN:
It
could
be,

because
the
new
procurement
means
a
new
item.

MADAM
CHAIR:
Right.

M
S
.
MARY
KATHERINE
BROWN:
We
could,
yes,

you
could
conceivably
be
talking
about
a
procurement
that
is
new,
but
to
do
the
six
affirmative
steps
at
\
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1%

19
20
21
22
23
24
25
19
that
point
­
­

MADAM
CHAIR:
Will
be
time
­
­

MS.
MARY
KATHERINE
BROWN:
­
­
will
be
a
and
you're
going
to
get
­
­
youdre
going
to
time
factor,

get
a
time
extension
from
a
construction
contractor
whenever
you
­
­
whenever
he
is
delayed,
and
that
means
you
are
going
to
increase
the
project
costs.
And
it
may
be
worth
it.
The
decision
may
be
that
you
want
to
see
this
happen.
I'm
just
pointing
out,
it's
going
to
be
something
that!
s
going
to
make
some
of
our
loan
recipients
be
at
an
automatic
disadvantage
because
this
kind
of
thing
is
going
to
increase
the
cost
of
that
project
MADAM
CHAIR:
Okay.

MR.
DAVE'"­
SHACKLEY.
With
the
regional
I
[
S
k"
l
counsel
in
the
region
of
Denver.

questions,
I
guess
conceptual
in
nature,
and
that
would
be,
I
don't
know
about
Wayne
County
but
the
city
of
Denver
did
availability
studies,
did
quite
a
few
availability
studies
because
they
were
in
a
court
case
over
there
in
their
program,
which
is
a
lot
like
the
EPA
or
was
a
lot
like
the
EPA
program.

availability
studies
which
focused
on
the
five
county
area,
which
is
the
metro
area
around
Denver,
and
they
came
up
with
higher
numbers,
which
makes
sense
because
I
have
a
couple
of
So
they
did
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
a
1
12
13
14
15
16
17
1%

19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
0
that's
where
the
significant
portion
of
the
minority
and
the
business
women
population
is.
And
if
they
advertise
within
that
five­
county
area,
they
certainly
use
those
numbers.
What
happens
if
they
advertise
statewide?
Do
you
use
their
numbers
or
do
they
use
the
state's
numbers
which
are
lower?
loQ
MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
They
use
the
numbers
that
correlate
to
the
geographic
market
area.

MR.
DAVE
SHACKLEY:
Okay.
Now
I
just
set
you
up
here.

MS.
PATRICIA
HIRSCH:
I'm
shocked.

MR.
DAVE
SHACKLEY:
So
we
are
building
the
DIA.
So
let`
s
pretend
they
advertise
statewide,
which
they
don't
do,
but
will
let's
pretend
they
did
that.

So
they
use
some
numbers
in
there.
Then
we
go
for
a
construction
contract,
for
a
construction
contract
to
build
an
airport
or
maybe
a
large
sewage
plant,
or
whatever,
you
are
looking
at
a
national
procurement
which
is
how
think
they
did
the
procurements
on
DIA.

They
advertised
nationally.
Well,
what
numbers
do
they
ai
/

use
then?
See,
you
Jumped
to
conclusions.
3.

(
2
I
mean
that's
sort
of
the
problem
with,

when
you
look
at
the
numbers,
a
small
town
may
advertise
statewide,
but
certainly
the
procurement
area,
the
reality
is
it`
s
going
to
be
geographically
9
10
11
12
13
18
(
J
2
0
a­
2
2
2
4
21
whatever
contractors
you
have
to
have
in
that
part
of
the
state,
unless
itls
a
large
enough
project
to
bring
people
in
from
elsewhere.

We
have
a
lot
of
these
problems
in
our
region
because
in
North
Dakota
they
advertise
in
Minnesota;
that's
where
the
contractors
are.
Again,

you
are
looking
at
western
Minnesota,
which
is
not
exactly
­
­
there
is
not
a
high
minority
population
in
western
Minnesota,
but
you
are
looking
in
Wyoming,
my
God,
most
of
the
contractors
in
Wyoming
come
from
Colorado.

So
part
of
the
problem
is,
we're
not
looking­
at
the
right
geographic
areas,
and
to
try
to
do
that
is
almost
impossible.
And
if
you
l
o
o
k
at
things
like
equipment,
well,
depending
on
what
I'm
buying,
I
may
be
advertising
­
­
like
there
may
be
five
pump
manufacturers
and
for
some
reason
I
buy
directly.

Well,
I
may
have
a
zero
percent
participation
level
because
the
five
pump
manufacturers
are
a
bunch
of
White
male­
owned
­
­
I
mean,
I
don't
know.
And
it
depends
a
lot
on
what
particular
kind
of
thing
I'm
trying
to
buy,
especially
if
I'm
look
at
things
like
supplies
and
equipment.

And
then
if
I
take
to
say
an
Indian
reservation,
if
I
have
a
reservation,
I
have
two
1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
1
2
13
14
15
16
17
1%

1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
1,
2
2
construction
contractors
on
the
reservation
that
are
tribal
members
or
tribally­
owned,

area
and
do
I
have
100
percent
MBE
goal
there
because
the
two
within
the
reservation
are
Indian?
Or
do
1
say,
look
at
all
of
South
Dakota,
which
is
going
to
change
my
number
significantly.
is
that
my
geographic
1
donrt
know
how
and
what's
the
easiest
or
best
way
to
try
to
defend
the
numbers
because
a
lot
of
it
depends
on
where
in
the
world
are
you
trying
to
bring
contractors
from.

MADAM
CHAIR:
I
think,
Dave,
that's
a
good
darn
­
­

MR.
DAVE
SHACKLEY:
Figure
that
one
out,

I
think
I
should
relinquish
the
microphone.

MADAM
CHAIR:
Any
other
questions,

concerns
or
issues?
No?
One
of
the
things
we
did
do
and
we
should
have
available
for
you
at
the
conclusion
of
the
conference
is
the
summary
of
the
draft
proposed
rule
that
Mark
so
eloquently
gave
yesterday.
We
are
having
that
typed
up
so
you
can
carry
that
home
with
you
SO
that
you
can
use
that
first
as
a
talking
point
when
you
go
back
to
your
offices
and
businesses
to
say
and
to
summarize,
basically,
what
we
were
trying
to
say
and
do
in
this
draft
proposed
rule.
So
that
­
­
we
are
working
on
that
and
we
should
have
that
availability
­
­
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
ia
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
23
I
mean
­
­
see
what
I
mean?
We
will
have
that
available
for
you.

One
of
the
other
things
that
I
didn't
mention,
you
should
have
received
a
certificate
of
attendance.
I
know
some
of
you
needed
that
to
take
back
with
you
to
your
offices
to
show
that
you
were
here,

that
kind
of
thing.
and
also
I
think
it
helps
you
in
your
training,

There
are
a
couple
of
other
things
that
we
will
need
to
do,
and
as
we
prepare
to
go
into
the
next
phase
of
this,
I
would
like
for
you
all
to
begin
thinking
about
where
you
would
like
to
go
next
year
or
year
after
next.
We
had
a
couple
of
proposals
on
Tuesday
when
we
had
the
state
breakout
that
maybe
we
would
break
it
up
and
not
have
one
big
one,
have
regional
ones
or,
if
we
have
separate
­
­
you
know,
two,

one
in
the
east
and
one
ii?
the
west
coast
or
something
like
that,
or
do
you
want
to
continue?

those
kinds
of
discussion
as
well.
Not
here,
but
we
can
talk
about
that
later,
and
you
can
give
us
your
recommendations.
I
J
m
open
to
We
also
have
the
evaluations
forms,

Please
fill
that
out.
As
a
matter
of
fact,
could
you
take
a
few
minutes
to
do
that:
now
because
I
know
a
lot
of
times
we
get
up
and
we
move
and
we
get
busy
with
t
1
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
24
other
things,
and
then
those
things
aren't
completed,

and
I
need
feedback
on
what
you
think,
and
that
would
help
us
in
preparation
for
the
next
conference
and
some
of
the
other
things
that
wedre
doing.

I
see
Ms.
White
here
from
the
State
Department
who
is
going
to
come
and
talk
to
us
about
opportunities
at
the
state
department
as
another
federal
agency.
She
is
my
colleague
and
OSDBU
director
from
the
state
department.
She
is
the
chair
of
the
OSDBU
council
that
represents
all
of
the
federal
agencies,
and
we
looked
at
a
lot
of
the
issues
that
we
discussed
here,
in
particular,
women­
owned
businesses,

contract
bundling,
and
a
lot
of
other
things.

So
she
is
very
knowledgeable
and
has
many
years
of
experience,
and
I'm
not
trying
to
date
you,

Julie,
but
she
is
my
colleague.
So
she'll
come
shortly
and
give
you
an
overview
of
what
it
is
they
have
been
doing
and
what's
available
at
the
state
department.
Do
we
have
any
other
federal
agencies
here?
Can
we
get
them
to
come?
I
would
like
to
do
that
before
we
break.

The
other
thing
that
I
would
like
to
do,
when
we
break,
I
want
all
of
us
to
get
up
and
go
over,
go
back
here
to
see
the
contractors,
because
we
brought
them
here
so
that
they
could
be
afforded
an
opportunity
to
talk
to
us,
to
show
us
their
goods
and
i
4
3
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
1
2
1
3
14
15
1
6
17
18
19
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
2
5
services
and
we
want
them
to
benefit
from
having
a
l
l
of
us
here.
And
then
after
­
­
and
we"
l
do
that
for
quite
some
time.
i
walked
through
last
night
and
had
an
opportunity
to
meet
them
and
many
of
them
had
a
lot
of
good
products
and
services,

would
do
the
same.
I
may
call
your
name
to
see
how
many
cards
you
got
and
who
you
met,
so
keep
that
in
mind.
so
I'm
hopeful
that
you
all
And
then
this
afternoon,
we"
1
come
back,

I
would
like
for
the
states
to
talk
to
the
businessesa
and
discuss
about
opportunities
that
are
also
availabl
within
the
state,
so
that
you
can
talk
to
them
and
direct
them
in
terms
of
how
would
one
go
about
doing
business
in
your
state.
So
what
we
will
probably
do
is,
we
will
leave
here
today
and
go
sit
in
the
audience,
and
then
have
each
region
come
up
with
some
of
the
state
reps
to
talk
about
whatds
available
in
your
state
and
how
one
would
go
about
doing
business
with
the
state.
is
there
anything
else?
Okay.
Have
you
completed
your
form,
yet,
or
do
you
need
more
time?
Give
you
a
few
more
minutes.
Pass
them
this
way.
You
go
this
way
so
they
all
end
up
with
Dr.

Ramsey.
Did
everyone
complete
one?
i
Again,
you
can
get
your
comments
in
to
us
on
the
draft
rule
by
31
of
April
­
­
August.
We
will
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
1
5
16
1
7
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
2
6
have
another
draft,
a
second
draft
on
the
proposed
rule,
depending
on
the
comments,
depending
on
how
long
it
will
take
us
to
get
it
out.
But
I
would
hope
that
it
would
be
out
before
October,
or
by
sometime
in
October,
if
not
sooner.
Ken
gave
me
an
okay,
ABP
right
MS.
WHITE:
Thank
you,
Jeanette.
As
Jeanette
said,
I'm
the
OSDBU
rep
at
the
state
department.
Many
people
don't
think
of
the
state
department
as
a
potential
market
in
the
federal
government.
Our
mission
is
the
conduct
­
­
people
just
don't
think
we
buy
anything
but,
in
fact,
we
spend
about
a
billion
dollars
a
year
in
goods
and
services
to
support
our
mission.
And
the
kind
of
things
we
buy
are
from
everything
from
common­
usage
items
that
you
would
think
of
as
overhead
items
to
support
an
office
like
paper
and
schedules,
thing
for
construction,
architect
and
engineer
services,
and
renovation
of
our
some
2
5
0
American
embassies
and
consulates
around
the
world;

physical
and
technical
security
in
the
aftermath
of
the
bombings
in
­
­
there
has
been
an
increase
in
security,

and
we're
looking
for,
you
know,
innovative
things
that
can
be
used
to
enhance
the
physical
and
security
of
embassies
abroad.

We
buy
a
significant
amount
of
information
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
0
PI.

12
13
1
4
1
5
1
6
17
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
22
23
2
4
25
27
technology,
support
services,
facilities
maintenance,

local
guard
services
to,
to
sort
of
­
­
what
was
the
word
I
was
looking­
for3
­
­
to
back
up
the
Marine
Security
Guard
Services
at
our
embassies
abroad
and
many
other
things.
So
we
have
an
excellent
track
record.
We
did
about
23
percent
of
domestic
contracts
with
8­
A
firms
last
year.
We
did
8.3
percent
with
women
and
52
percent
with
small
businesses.

We
will
be
having
a
HUB
Zone
goal
beginning
in
October.
We
were
not
one
of
the
agencies
that
were
part
of
the
pilot
program,
but
all
the
other
federal
agencies
signed
on
as
of
October
f
of
this
year,
so
I
believe
the
goal
is
going
to
be
2
percent
across
the
board
beginning
October.
And
we
will
also
have
a
veteran­
owned
business
goal
beginning
in
October.
So
I
encourage
anybody
who
is,
who
has
a
product
or
service
that
fits
in
with
some
of
the
things
I
just
described
to
stop
by
my
booth.
It's
right
next
to
the
EPA
booth
in
the
kind
of
supplemental
room
over
there
~

And
most
of
our
requirements
are
either
in
Washington
DC
or
abroad.

offices
in
the
US,
so
you
do
have
to
be
able
to
do
business
in
Washington
or
abroad
to
consider
us
as
a
potential
market.
But
I
encourage
you
to
stop
by
and
We
don't
have
regional
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
1
3
1
4
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
2
3
2
4
25
28
talk
to
us.
This
is
our
booklet,
and
it
goes
in
a
little
more
detail,
and
I
hope
to
see
you
sometime
this
morning
or
this
afternoon.
Thank
you.

MADAM
CHAIR:
Thank
you.
I
guess
we
finished
a
little
sooner
than
expected,
I
think
we
can
take
a
break,
and
let's
go
­
­
let's
not
take
a
break.

Let's
everybody
just
go
back
here
and
visit
the
vendors
and
talk
to
them
about
what
they
have,
what
they
are
serving.
We
will
be
back
in
here
after
lunch
at
1:
00.

(
Morning
session
concluded.)

(
Afternoon
session
convened.)

MADAM
CHAIR:
Hello.
Any
more
folk
outside?
In
this
part
of
the
conference
we
want
to
share
with
you
opportunities
that
are
available
at
the
federal
level,
still,
and
also
at
the
state
level.
Do
I
have
regions
­
­
Regions
1
and
2
is
here.
I
will
start
with
some
of
the
things
that
we
are
doing
at
EPA.

I
dondt
know
if
we
had
a
chance
to
visit,

­
but
all
the
federal
agencies
in
direct
procurement
have
tried
to
put
out
a
forecast
of
the
procurement
opportunities.
This
forecast
is
available
on
the
web
site
and
covers
the
fiscal
years
2000
and
2001,
This
update
is
the
second
quarter
update
as
of
April
2000,

and
it
will
give
you
an
item
description,
size
or
z
i
p
code
number,
a
brief
description,
the
type
of
1
2
3
2
4
4
2
5
2
9
requirement
we
are
looking
for,
whether
or
not
it's
going
to
be
a
small
business,
8­
A,
competitive.
And
when
we
say
that,
that's
usually
large,
multiple
awards,

estimated
dollar
range
and
also
the
office
small
business
set­
aside
and
that
gives
you
an
from
which
itls
corning
from.

It
gives
you
an
indication
as
to
the
issuance
date
of
the
solicitation,

date,
and
then
a
point
of
contact
in
the
Office
of
Acquisition
Management,
probably
the
person
or
someone
working
the
person
who
would
be
the
contract
point
of
contact.
This
information
is,
again,
on
the
web
site.

You
can
also
find
a
lot
of
information
of
the
solicitation
themselves
posted
to
the
web
site.
A
lot
of
what
we
do
is
electronic,
so
if
you
are
a
business
seeking
to
do
business
with
EPA,

have
access
to
the
internet,

your
best
interest
because
a
lot
of
our
solicitations
go
up
on
the
internet.
the
target
award
if
you
don,
t
that's
going
to
be
not
in
We
do
the
questions
and
answers
on
the
internet.

area
of
small
purchases,
I
think
a
lot
of
the
awards
are
made,
bids
are
submitted
via
the
internet,
awards
are
made,
and
that's
it.
We
do
not
turn
around
­
­
is
that
right,
Rosemarie?
The
tech
­
­
down
on
the
internet,
and
in
the
Rosemarie
Nance
in
the
back
is
the
agency
advocate.
If
have
you
any
concerns
on
competitive,

we've
been
­
­
I
think
we
are
up
to
about
9
6
percent
of
we
are,
we
have"
gotten
away
from
a
lot
of
the
sole
sources.
We
still
have
a
few,
but
it's
limited.
I
So
again,
I
would
strongly
encourage
you
MS.
ROSEMARIE
NANCE:
My
phone
number?

MADAM
CHAIR:
Yes.
202
­
­

MS.
ROSEMARIE
NANCE:
202­
564­
4321.

MADAM
CHAIR:
202­
564­
4321.
One
of
the
different.
There
are
some
under
the
8­
A
statutes,
you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
1
6
17
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
331
amounts
without
competition.

You
can't
do
that
with
any
other
minority
group,
and
that
is
something
that
they
have
there.
And
we
are
strongly
encouraging
and
pushing
to
­
­
with
the
tribally­
owned
firms
and/
or
tribes,
Alaska
native
corporations,
SO
I
would
ask
you
to
take
a
look
at
this.
This
may
be
something
that
you
can
take
a
look
at.
I'm
not
sure
how
you
all
do
business
back
home
in
your
states,
et
cetera,
but
this
may
be
something
that
would
help
you,

I'm
also
told
to
inform
you
that,
when
our
web
site
is
available,

very
soon,
you
will
be
able
to
reach
us
at
WWW.
EPA.
GOV/
OSDBU.

your
web
site
addresses
as
I
requested.
I'm
hoping
that
you
did.
For
those
of
you
all
who
also
have
web
sites,
I
think
it
would
a
be
a
good
tool
and
resource
for
the
small
business
community
link.
So
if
we
haven't
taken
care
of
that,
let's
do
that.
We
are
trying
to
do
as
much,
and
this
is
throughout
the
federal
government,
one­
stop
shopping,
so
when
you
go
to
one
web
site,
you
find
a
lot
of
information
that
links
you
to
other
places.

encourage
you
to
take
us
up
on
that
as
well.
I'm
also
told
we
have
the
­
­
these
are
ready,
then?
and
I'm
hoping
that's
got
to
be
I
don't
know
if
you
all
provided
us
So
I
would
strongly
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
1
5
1
6
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
2
MR.
GORDON:
Yes.

MADAM
CHAIR:
We
have
the
synopsis
of
the
major
elements
of
the
EPA
DBE
rule,
draft
rule
and
preamble
­
­
still
doesn't
say
grant
­
­
oh,
staff
draft
as
of
June
19,
This
is
available;
and
we
will
give
this
to
all
of
you
all
so
you
can
take
this
back.
It
will
summarize
what
Mark
went
over
to
better
assist
you
in
explaining
what
we
covered
here
or
how
it`
s
going
to
impact
you
or
what
you
need
to
be
concerned
with,
so
we
do
have
that.

MR.
GORDON:
It's
available
now.
Itrs
available
in
a
box
­
­
sorry
for
pointing
­
­
itls
available
at
the
front
table
on
the
other
side
of
the
wall.
There
should
be
enough
copies
for
everyone
and
they
are
in
a
box.

MADAM
CHAIR:
We
will
get
them
to
you.

What
I
would
like
to
do
is,
MBE­
WBE
coordinators
to
come
up,
along
with
the
state
reps,
and
you
a11
can
talk
about
opportunities.
And
then
we
can
start
with
Region
1.
And
I
ask
that,
too,
Sharon,
we
do
have
to
take
an
important
call
at
quarter
of,
Sharon,
and
I
will
leave
out
and
then
come
back,
if
you
don't
mind.

MS.
SHARON
MOLDEN:
Region
1
is
Boston,

Massachusetts,
and
we
cover
six
New
England
states,

Connecticut,
Rhode
Island,
New
Hampshire,
Vermont,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
3
Maine
and
Massachusetts.

Opportunities,
current
opportunities
we
have,
we
are
still
in
the
process
of
awarding
a
contract
for
an
8­
A
set­
aside
remedial
project.
It's
valued
at
$
3
million.
We
have
a
number
of
brown
field
projects
going
on
in
the
states
of
Connecticut,

Massachusetts
and
Vermont.
We
have
over
$
175
million
out
in
our
SRF
programs,
and
in
all
six
of
our
New
England
states.

If
you
are
interested
in
doing
business
in
the
New
England
area,
you
may
reach
me
on
­
­
I
will
give
you
my
telephone
number,
but
there`
s
also
a
web
page
as
well.
My
telephone
number
is
area
code
617­
918­
1062.
That's
area
code
617­
918­
1062.
You
can
also
view
our
information
on
our
web
page,

WWW.
EPA.
GOV/
REGION
P.

That
pretty
much
sums,
if
you
have
other
questions
regarding
specific
opportunities
for
your
particular
standard
of
industrial
class
or
types
of
work
that
you
might
be
interested
in
doing
in
the
New
England
area,

over
the
next
day
and
a
half.
Thank
you.
I
would
be
more
than
happy
to
talk
to
you
MR.
OTTO
SALAMON:
Dan,
you
want
to
come
up?
I'm
Otto
Salamon
and
I
cover
Region
2,
and
I`
m
the
WWB
coordinator
for
New
York
University,
Puerto
Rico
t
1
1
9
10
11
12
13
14
17
18
2
0
34
and
the
Virgin
Islands.
We
too
have
given
out
quite
a
few
grants
for
brown
fields
and
S
R
F
programs,
like
Sharon
mentioned.
1
just
want
to
point
out
to
you
that
all
of
our
programs
for
all
of
EPA
you
can
find
in
the
Catalogue
of
Federal
Domestic
Assistance
in
the
6600
series,
and
itrs
on
the
internet,
so
all
of
them
are
described,
what
the
programs
are,
and
you
all
know
Jeanette
mentioned
that
96
percent
are
competitive,
the
other
4
percent
are
non­
competitive,

We
will
also
give
out
grants
for
unique
ideas.
Just
briefly,
we
a
had
a
grantee
who
came
in
with
the
idea
of
getting
rid
of
computers,
instead
of
getting
rid
of
computers,
of
reconstituting
them
and
giving
them
away.
So
a
lot
of
companies,
they
just
discard
the
computers,
and
we
have
that
problem
with
computers
just
like
they
have
problems
with
tires.
So
we
have
­
­
many,
many
of
those
computers
are
just
discarded,
and
what
they
said
to
us
is
that,
slWe
can
­
­

we
will
rebuild
them
and
we
will
give
them
away,
and
what
we
need
is
some
money
for
the
pilot
idea."

This
went
under
the
Solid
Waste
Management
Assistance
Program,
66.808
on
the
CFDA,
and
so
we
­
­

even
though
that
is
a
competitive
program,
we
gave
them,
I
think
it
was
something
like
$
15,000,
and
they
\

rewrote
those
computers
and
they
showed
us
this
program
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I
O
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
3
5
worked
and
now
it's
a
viable
idea,
So
we
do
entertain
unique
ideas
you
have
if
you
come
to
us.

Let
me
give
you
my
e­
mail
address,
if
you
need
it,
S­
a­
1­
a­
m­
o­
n,
sometimes
people
call
me
Sullivan.
SALAMON.
OTTO@
EPAMAIL.
EPA.
COM.
Now
what
I
would
like
to
do
is
introduce
to
you
Ken
Shider
from
New
York
State
who
is
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
to
you
about
the
MBE­
WBE
program
that
he
does
so
well.
Thank
you
­

MR,
KEN
SHIDER:
Thank
you,
Otto.
We
are
the
Ne\
York
State
Environmental
Facilities
Corporation
in
New
York.
We
currently
manage
a
combined
$
5
billion
clean
water
and
drinking
water
SRF
program.
The
program
started
up
with
one
person
back
in
1
9
9
6
,
and
now
it
has
a
complete
staff
of
four
people.

The
way
our
program
works
is,
we
have
an
intended
use
plan
in
which
people
who
want
to
do
a
project
will
sign
up
by
engineers.
They
will
look
at
it,
and
the
engineers
will
assign
them
a
score.

Depending
upon
the
color,
if
they
are
reachable
on
that
list,
then
they
get
put
into
a
pool
and
then
we
finance
that
pool
for
the
upcoming
projects.

During
<
the
past
four
years
we
have
been
very
successful
in
getting
compliance
in
our
programs
because
of
the
way
we
do
things.
We
believe
in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
3
6
creating
win­
win
situations
in
which
the
community
can
win,
the
contracts
can
win,
and
MBEs
and
WBEs
can
win.

How
we
do
this
is
we
go
out
in
the
field
and
we
train
these
individuals
who
have
been
assigned
or
designated
MBD
officers,

led
to
believe,
because
the
contractors
are
usually
the
same
bunch
of
characters
you
run
into
over
and
over
again
because
of
the
special
nature
of
the
projects.
and
it's
not
as
difficult
as
people
are
Our
biggest
hurdles
are
internal,
and
those
battles
are
very
difficult
to
win
because
what
YOU
have
to
do,
you
have
to
conv
nce
those
people
to
give
us
the
support,
the
resources,
you
know,
we
need
to
run
the
program,
to
be
effective,
and
sometimes
when
you
work
with
people
but
don't
have
an
idea
of
what
you`
re
trying
to
do,
they`
re
not
in
tune
with
your
vision.
As
I
said,
it
can
be
difficult.

So
once
you
convince
your
internal
staff,

our
manager
and
the
supporters
this
is
a
good
program,

it
works
for
business,
you
know,
economic
values,

program,

can
run
an
effective
program.
Historically
all
the
programs
have
been
understaffed
since
its
inception,

and
I'm
sure
that
you
all
have
been
in
my
situation
before,
you
know,
in
which
there
is
only
one
or
two'

people,
not
counting
the
secretary,
that
you
have
to
and
then
they
give
you
the
resources
so
you
3
I
10
11
share
with
somebody
else.

But
when
you
have
the
resources,
you
have
1
to
get
very
creative
as
to
what
it
is
you
want
to
do
and
how
you
are
going
to
accomplish
your
objectives.

And
the
best
way
to
do
that
is
to
show
these
individuals
at
the
higher
echelon
that
believe,
first
of
all,
in
the
program.
You
have
to
believe
in
the
opportunities
afforded
them,
M­
WBE,
and
you
also
have
to
convince
them
that,

makes
you
look
good.
[
I
­
­
you
have
to
"
This
program
I
always
say
my
job
is
to
make
my
boss
12
1
look
good.
That's
the
bottom
line.
So
if
there
are
no
I
13
17
1%
problems
and
no
questions
from
EPA
and
we
are
doing
a
good
j
o
b
,
he
or
she
has
nothing
to
worry
about.
But
a
successful
program
begins
and
ends
with,
first
of
all,

support
from
the
top.
If
you
don!
t
have
support
from
the
top,

running,
itBs
not
going
to
be
successful.
We
canrt
do
it
by
ourselves.
We
need
those
resources
available
to
us.
We
need
that
­
­
to
run
the
program
the
way
it
should
be
run,
and
we
also
need
staff,
you
know,
that's
the
reality.
And
without
those
components,
hey,
you're
going
to
be
struggling.
1
don't
care
what
kind
of
program
youBre
Right
now
I
'
m
going
to
turn
it
over
to
one
of
my
assistants,
Franklin
Whitson,
who
will
explain
a
L
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
a
9
10
11
12
13
a
4
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
2
2
2
3
24
2
5
3
8
little
bit
about
our
MB
technical
training
page
in
which
the
staff
­
­

MR,
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
First
thing,
we
meet
with
a
municipality,
meet
with
their
designated
MBE
officer.
That
is
the
first
thing
I
try
to
do
is
to
get
them
to
understand
the
importance
of
the
program,

and
before
we
get
started
in
the
paperwork,
I
have
to
ask
them
all
to
understand
one
little
principle.

NOW,
a
l
l
o
f
you
got
your
notes,
write
this
down.
"
He
or
she
that
gives
the
gold
rules.
If
We
give
the
gold.
EPA
gives
us
the
gold
with
rules.
We
give
the
gold
to
municipalities
with
rules.

They
give
the
gold
to
the
contractors
with
rules,
The
golden
rule,

EPA
says,
"
We
are
going
to
follow
those
rules
~
Is
We
say
to
them,
"
You
are
going
to
follow
those
rules.
And
you,
the
municipality
will
make
sure
the
contractors
follow
the
rules.
Is
Our
package
consists
of,
first,
a
description
of
what
the
duties
of
MBE
officers
are.

And
then
we
go
into
how
to
get
on
the
internet
to
the
directory
of
M
and
WBE,
our
state
agency
does
the
certification,
so
they
learn
how
to
use
that
directory.

Then
there's
a
sample
utilization
plan.
A
utilization
plan
has
to
be
turned
in
ten
days
after
a
I
L
c
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
0
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
16
1
7
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
39
contract
has
been
let
by
th6
contractor
listing
all
of
your
M
and
WBE,
what
you
plan
to
pay
them,
what
they
are
going
to
do,
and
what
time
frame
you
are
going
to
use
them.
And
also
their
EEO
goals
are
on
that
same
form.

In
the
package
there
are
sample
monthly
reports
that
the
contractor
has
to
fill
out.
We
give
them
three
sample
monthly
reports,
one
for
January,

February
and
March.
That
corresponds
to
the
quarterly
reports
that
the
municipality
has
to
fill
out.
Again,

that
is
a
sample
of
that
as
well
as
the
blank
forms.

Along
with
that
we
talk
about
how
they
have
to
get
certain
things,
canceled
checks,
front
and
back.
Talk
to
them
about
doing
the
follow­
up,
early.

Do
not
wait
until
the
contract
is
over
to
ask
for
documentation.
Most
of
the
places
in
our
state,
now
they
require
the
contractor
to
turn
in
their
monthly
report
with
their
payment
requests.
No
monthly
report,

payment
request
will
not
be
processed.
And
most
of
them
are
working
in
that
way
which
helps
us
a
great
deal.

When
we
get
through
with
the
whole
process,
we
hand
them
training
notes
for
them
to
refer
back
to.
We
develop
a
set
of
notes
that
covers
all
the
stuff
that
we
talk
about
in
that
process.
We
try
and
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1%

19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
4
0
arrange
to
be
at
their
@
rebid
meeting.
The
prebid
meeting
is
very
important
for
us
to
be
there,
whenever
possible,
so
that
way
when
we
talk
to
all
the
respective
contractors,
that's
when
1
say
to
them,

"
One,
we
do
not
have
goals
or
­
­
we
have
goals.
We
don't
have
I
hear
quotas
all
the
time.
No,

we
donft
have
quotas;
we
have
goals.

The
level
playing
field
happens
to
be
the
bid
document.
What
makes
the
playing
field
unlevel
is
the
contractor
that
submits
as
his
utilization
and
says
he
is
going
to
use
the
M
and
WBEs
and
doesn't.
So
your
fellow
contractor
was
making
that
state
unlevel,
it's
not
us.

It's
a
basic
requirement'
of
any
'

contractor.
If
I
contract
someone
to
cut
my
grass
and
I
want
to
cut
three
inches
in
the
front,
and
four
inches
in
the
back,
thatus
the
condition
of
that
contract.
If
you
decide
to
cut
it
five
inches
all
over,
you
have
broken
the
contract.
That's
the
way
we
treat
the
goals
a
We
also
assist
and
say,
"
If
you
need
help
in
finding
M
and
WBEs,
feel
free
to
contact
the
office."
Some
communities,
lots
of
communities
are
now
putting
the
directions
on
how
to
use
­
­
enter
our
directory
into
the
bid
document.
This
makes
it
a
lot
L­
a
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
15
1
6
17
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
41
easier
for
the
contractor,
and
we
have
fewer
and
fewer
situations
where
they
are
not
meeting
the
goals.

Some
communities,
they
like
the
package
so
well
that
they
call
and
ask
permission
to
use
our
reporting
forms
for
other
projects
they
have,
not
from
our
funding,
because
it
works
for
them.
The
other
thing
to
stress
to
your
communities
that
we
stress
in
the
training­
program
is
that,
if
a
contractor
reneges
or
lies
to
you,
that
is,
does
not
follow
through
on
the
use
of
the
M
and
WBEs,
they
are
also
going
to
mess
up
someplace
along
the
way,
instead
of
using
three
inch
pipe
they
might
use
two.
So
all
of
this
stuff
helps
them
to
understand
that,
if
they
enforce
our
program,

it
cuts
down
the
hassles
in
other
parts
of
their
project,
and
we've
gotten
pretty
good
cooperation
lately.

We
have
had
a
couple
of
areas
where
we
had
one
particular
community
where
the
mayor
refused
to
pay
anybody,
and
we
had
to
go
say,
"
Look,
we've
got
an
$
80,000
contract.
There's
only
two
people
there.
Give
the
man
his
money.
si
But
other
than
that,
it
works
quite
well,

the
communities
is,
"
Thank
you
for
showing
us
how
to
fill
out
the
forms.
Thank
you
for
showing
us
how
these
forms
can
help
us
avoid
falling
into
traps."
And
by
and
what
we
hear
over
and
over
again
from
­­

42
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
25
educating
them
and
then
letting
them
know
we
are
available
to
assist
them,
we've
gotten
much
better
cooperation
and
very
few
tough
situations,
so
to
say.

MR.
KEN
SHIDER:
Thank
you,
Franklin.

Just
one
final
comment,
also
­
­
comments.
The
reason
why
the
staff
encouraged
me
to
put
these
forma
together,
I
remember
when­
I
first
came
on
board
a
group
of
us
went
to
Oswego,
New
York,
which
is
way
upstate,

and
we
went
there
for
an
application
meeting
to
go
over
the
S
R
F
requirements,
and
as
soon
as
we
sat
down
fn
the
room,
the
mayor
stood
up
and
said,

you
right
now,
if
we
have
to
do
M­
WBE,
I'm
not
IIIrm
going
to
tell
interested
So
everyone
in
my
group
looked
at
me
and
I
said,
!'
Heyg
I
'
m
not
the
man
who's
talking
about
it."

So
he
explained
that,
through
another
funding
source,

that
they
received
a
grant
for
another
project.
The
language
and
policies
were
very
vague
and
ambiguous,

and
they
had
a
heck
of
a
time
trying
to
get
some
guidance
on
what
they
were
supposed
to
do.

So
I
looked
at
the
mayor
and
I
said,

IIWell,
Mr.
Mayor,
I
don't
know
what
happened
the
last
time,
but
I
can
assure
you
that's
not
going
to
happen
this
time."
They
were
very,
very
skeptical.
Well,
to
make
a
long
story
short,
to
date
we
have
given
that
1
9
10
11
12
a3
17
18
a­
22
23
24
25
community
or
loaned
them
seven
loans
in
excess
of
$
25
million
and,
out
of
those
seven
loans
or
seven
projects,
they
only
met
the
goals
on
one,
but
they
exceeded
t
h
e
goals
in
the
other
six.

And
if
you
know
where
Oswego,
New
York,

is,
it's
not
a
place
that
has
a
large
minority
community,
but
somehow
those
contractors
were
able
to
seek
MBE
firms
from
the
Syracuse
area
to
come
in
and
perform
at
a
rapid
pace,
and
they
were
very
impressed.

So
that's
the
type
of
cooperation
we
need
from
everyone
to
make
the
program
successful.

If
you
have
any
questions
or
comments
our
telephone
is
area
code
518­
457­
3858.
Our
fax
number
is
518­
457­
9200
and
you
can
e­
mail
us
at
SHIER,
S­
h­
i­
e­
r,

k3NYFNYC.
4.

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSCN:
Yes,
sir.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
None
of
Lhose
questions
are
­
­
what
is
New
York
State's
negotiated
fair
share
of
EPA?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSCN:
We
have
two
goals.

Because
the
state
is
so
large,
it
consists
of
62
counties.
Our
upstate
goals
are
6­
6,
respectively,
for
MBE­
WBE.
Our
downstate
goals
are
21.7
and
13.8.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
For
instance,
within
the
upstate,
let's
say,
do
you
geographically
make
it
any
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2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
4
4
more
specific
for
­
­

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
At
times,
yes.

NR.
DAVID
BURKE:
­
­
goals?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
We
do
we
take
a
look
at
every
project
in
the
business
because
every
project,
every
contract
is
not
alike.
Sometimes
you
have
special
equipment.
Sometimes
you
have
specialty
work
that
has
to
be
performed.
The
problem
may
be
in
a
very
remote
area
and
we
just
can{
t
do
anything
with
that,
so
we
will
exclude
certain
portions
of
the
contract
to
make
it
more
practical
and
feasible
to
include
M­
WBErs
participation.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Who
calls
the
shot
on
that?
Do
you
call
the
shot
or
does
the
local
government?

'
MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
We
work
with
the
local
governments
in
establishing
a
coordinated
effort.

I
will
advise
them
and
give
them
guidance
along
with
my
staff
on
those
projects
on
how
to
proceed,
but
itBs
not,
you
know,
I
say,
"
This
is
the
goals,
we
would
like
to
have
their
input.
But
since
we
are
more
specialized,
you
know,
in
this
area
I
believe
we
can
give
them
better'!
­
­

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Do
they
get
to
determine
what
the
goal
will
be
on
a
special
project?
b
1
9
1
0
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
15
1
6
17
1%

1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
MR.
ITSON:
No,
no,
we
set
the
goals,
and
sometimes
we
can,
you
know,
you
lower
the
goals
and
do
other
things
to
make
it
more
feasible,
as
I
said,
for
the
contractors
to
meet
the
goals.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
How
many
MBE
officers
do
you
have?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Statewide?

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Yes.

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Well,
maybe
150.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Is
that
right?
Wow.

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
I
mean,
you
have
to
realize
New
York
State
is
a
big
state.
We
are
mounting­

a
$
5
billion
program
with
three
people,
and
we
travel
all
throughout
the
state,
you
know,
training
these
particular
MBE
officers.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Do
the
MBE
officers
have
other
functions,
such
as
your
project
engineers
and
they
cover
this
function,
or
is
that
what
they're
all
about
3
MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
There's
a
whole
gamut.
We
have
village
clerks,
mayors,
town
supervisors,
some
are
engineers,
very
few
are
actually
MBE
officers.
Only
in
the
larger
communities,
such
as
Syracuse,
New
York,
Nassau
County,
Westchester,
Buffalo
and
Rochester,
we
have
established
MBE
officers.
Other
i
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
6
than
that
it's,
people
doing
other
functions.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Am
I
correct
that
you
are
the
chief
MBE
officer
for
the
state?

MR,
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
No,

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Director?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Only
for
this
program
e
MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Who
do
you
report
to?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
EPA.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
So
you
don't
report
to
the
SRF
program?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
NO.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Who
gives
you
you
your
marching
orders
within
the
state
government?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Within
the
state
government?

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
Uh­
huh.

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Who
do
I
report
to,

my
boss?
My
boss
is
director
of
Finance
and
Administration
for
New
York
State
Environment
and
Sewage
Corporation,
in
which
we
work,
in
turn,
with
Empire
State
Development
Corporation,
which
is,
quote
unquote,
the
lead
agency
for
the
MBE­
WBE
program.
They
do
all
the
certifications.

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Yes,
sir.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
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7
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19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
7
MR.
WALTER
PEARSON:
Walter
Pearson,

Natural
Resources,
Did
the
state
of
New
York
do
a
disparity
study
t
o
establish
that
­
­

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Yes,
we
did
it
in
I992
­

MS.
MARY
KATHERINE
BROWN:
Repeat
the
question,

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Did
the
state
of
New
York
do
a
disparity
study
to
establish
its
goal,

and
the
answer
is,
yes,
it
was
conducted
in
1992.

MR.
WALTER
PEARSON:
At
some
point
was
there
a
­
­
are
YOU
going
on
the
same
study
from
1992,

or
did
you
go
and
update
the
study
or
are
you
using
the
same
data
you
used
in
1992
based
on
the
year
2000?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
What
we
are
doing,

we
are
extracting
data
from
that
study
and
making
it
applicable
to
our
program.
See,
one
of
the
problems
is
you
have
to
be
careful
when
you
conduct
these
studies
because
have
to
realize,
in
SRF
we
deal
in
a
very
specialized
nature
of
work.
It#
s
not
like
we
are
building
houses
where
we
have
minorities
and
women
involved
in
that
field
and
the
area
of
waste
facilities,
sewer
landfill,
you
know,
the
numbers
are
very
limited.
So
we
have
to
extract
from
that
study
and
take
a
look
at
every
project
and
then,
you
know,
9
10
11
12
13
17
I
1%

4
l9
I
I)
20
23
24
4
8
place
the
goal
there.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
One
other
question.

MR,
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Go
ahead.

MR,
DAVID
BURKE:
Does
your
SRF
ever
make
any
loans
that
donJt
involve
a
federal
grant,
in
other
words,
either
from
bond
proceeds,
from
the
set
bonds,

the
repayment
of
loans?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
No.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
So
you've
never
been
faced
with
a
situation
of,
if
there
is
no
EPA
money
involved,
whether
there
is
any
MBE
programs.

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
No,
If
there
is
any
additional
bond
moniesd
that
would
be
with
the
Department
of
Conservation
through
the
bond
thing,
they
are
a
separate
office.

MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
But
do
they
make
S
R
P
loans?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
No.
No.
Being
a
public
authority,
you
know,
we
are
different
than
a,

quote
unquote,
state
agency,
you
know.
We
can
incur
debt.
States
agencies
can't
do
that,
so
we
are
basically
the
financing
agents
for
Department
of
Conservation
and
Department
of
Health,
so
when
we
receive
the
capitalization
grant
from
EPA,
we
take
that
money
and
give
it
as
loans.
!
b
l
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
49
MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
I
spoke
to
you
briefly
the
other
day,
but
does
New
York
State
have
an
MBE
program
that
would
apply
to
loan
proceeds
that
wouldn't
involve
federal
money?
In
other
words,
Pet's
say
the
feds
cut
us
off,
we
don't
get
a
federal
grant
and
all
we
can
do
is
make
loans
from
repayments
of
loans
or
bond
proceeds,
et
cetera.
Is
there
a
place
in
New
York
State
and
MBE
requirements
for
loans
made
by
the
state
agency?

MR.
FRANKLIN
WHITSON:
Other
state
agencies
cannot
make
loans
because
they
can
not
incur
debt.
That's
the
Paw.
They
can't
do
that.
Only
public
authorities
have
that
ability
to
do
that.
Now,

we
do
have
other
agencies,
as
I
mentioned,
Department
of
Conservation
offered
to
help
do
8­
A
money,
and
then
they
have
their
own
M­
WBE
programs,
but
not
loans.

DR.
RAMSEY:
Let`
s
move
on,
move
on
to
Region
3.
And
again,
we
want
to
emphasize
anticipated
contract
opportunities
to
give
the
business
community
an
opportunity
to
understand
the
kind
of
contracts
which
are
awarded
by
the
states.
Region
3?

(
No
response.
)

DR.
RAMSEY:
In
the
interest
of
getting
through
all
of
the
regions,
we
need
to
try
to
move
it
along
with
about
ten
minutes
per
region
because
we
have
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
23
2
4
2
5
5
0
yet
to
hear
from
the
Howard
University
on
their
program.
Ready
Region
3
?
Your
state
is
going
to
describe
you.

ROMONA
McQUEEN:
Good
afternoon.
My
name
f
s
Romona
McQueen,
and
I'm
the
program
manager
for
small
disadvantaged
utilization
in
EPA
Region
3,
and
that
is
in
Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania.
The
states
that
we
cover
are
Delaware,
Maryland,
Virginia,

Pennsylvania,
West
Virginia,
and
the
District
of
Columbia.
And
my
position
at
the
region
is
that
I
'
m
the
business
or
I
'
m
the
liaison,
I
should
say,
to
the
business
community
for
our
region.

And
most
of
­
­
or
not
most,
but
anything
that
is
forecast
in
our
opportunities
for
2000­
2001
is,

basically
the
way
is
that
you
would
talk
to
one
of
the
contracting
officers
that
is
listed,
and
if
you
did
get
a
copy
of
that
forecast,
that
opportunities
listing,

that's
the
most
direct
way
to
talk
about
contracting
opportunities.

However,
if
you
would
like
to
talk
to
me
directly,
I
am
available,
I
will
give
you
my
e­
mail
address,
if
you
are
interested
in
opportunities
in
one
of
the
states
listed
for
our
region,
my
e­
mail
is
MCQUEEN.
ROMONA@
EPA.
GOV.
What
I
will
also
ask
you
to
do
is
to
possibly
send
me
a
capability
statement
because,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
51
even
though
you
will
talk
with
maybe
one
of
the
contracting
officers,
I
can
facilitate
sending
your
capability
statement
to
some
of
our
program
offices
and
sort
of
introduce
them
Lo
you
and
give
your
number
if
you
want
to
talk
with
someone
more
specifically
about
your
particular
interests,

Our
region
is
in
the
middle
of
designing
a
web
page
that
is
going
to
be
able
to
ink
into
OSDBU
and
that
will
give
you
an
opportunity
to
learn
more
about
the
specifics
about
our
program
offices
and
other
technical
people
and
maybe
assess
the
kinds
of
needs
that
they
have
and
match
them
with
the
kinds
of
services
that
you
are
able
to
provide.

In
October
we
are
planning
to
have
a
fair
similar
to
this
one
in
which
there
will
be
an
opportunity
for
all
of
our
program
offices
to
meet
with
any
contractors
that
are
available
and
interested
in
our
region,
but
we
don't
have
that
­
­
as
of
now,
we
are
just
talking
about
it,
but
hopefully
it
will
be
taking
place
in
October.

So
please
feel
free
to
send
me
an
e­
mail
or
you
can
call
me.
My
number
is
area
code
215­
814­
5155.
I
will
just
acknowledge
that
we
do
have
representatives
of
two
of
our
state
agencies
that
are
here,
and
that
is
West
Virginia.
Rosalie
Brodersen
is
1
Y
9
PO
11
5
2
OUT
SRF
manager
there.
She
Bas
brought
along
three
of
her
staff
people
­
­
I
have
it
all
wrong
­
­
and
since
I
don't
have
their
names
and
titles,
IIm
not
going
even
going
to
attempt,
but
Rosalie
is
here,
in
the
event
we
do
have
questions,
about
the
SRF
program.
And
also
for
Maryland,
we
have
Wallace
Baker
who
is
the
director
of
Fair
Practices
and
Kay
Bee
who
directs
the
SRF
program.

And
also
there
are
­
­
Terry
is
here
as
well
­
­
I
I
m
sorry
a
MR.
DAVID
BURKE:
David
Burke.

M
S
.
RQMONA
McQUEEN:
­
­
and
David
Burke.

12
I
Thank
YOU.
Unless
you
have
any
questions
­
­

13
18
19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Is
it
true
the
contracting
opportunities
­
­

MS.
ROMONA
McQUEEN:
I
would
like
to
get
­
­

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Thank
YOU.
I
know
that
since
all
of
the
oddness
everybody
has
the
web
site
as
requesting
information
to
be
sent
on
line
and
communicate
on
line
and
bidding
on
line,
how
much
of
the
programs
­
­
I
mean,
a
lot
of
things
are
physical
contracts
that
require
­
­
and
remediation
and
so
on,

how
much
of
the
business
is
conducted
on
line?
­
­
just
the
general
business
of
contracts
on
line.
Because
we
have
a
service
that's
only
on
line,
so
we're
not
on
the
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
5
3
ground
with
equipment,
and
we
want
to
try
and
find
a
way
to
create
opportunities
to
be
and
interface
on
line.
Are
there
any
opportunities
in
your
contracting
that
are
simply
on
line
opportunities
for
MBE
or
WBEs
to
perform
on
line
opportunities,
meetings,
for
example?

M
S
,
RQMONA
McQUEEN:
I'm
not
sure,
but
I
don't
think
that
we
have
advanced
to
that
point
that
we
have
everything
on
Pine.

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Well,
I
was
thinking,
like
New
York,
they
were
suggesting
people
could
propose
creative
ideasd
and
are
you
open
to
creative
ideas
for
funding?

MS.
ROMQNA
McQUEEN:
Region
3
is
always
open
to
that,
and
so
that
I
can
better
answer
you
if
we
can.
talk
a
little
later
and
exchange
some
addresses
and
I
can
give
you
a
full
answer.

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Thank
YOU,

DR.
RAMSEY:
Rafael
is
not
here
at
this
time,
but
Mary
Katherine,
you'll
tell
us
something
about
contracting
opportunities
in
the
state
of
Mississippi
for
the
types
of
work
that
is
occurring
in
your
state.
Thank
you.

MS.
MARY
KATHERINE
BROWN:
Okay,
before
I
talk
to
you
about
the
state
of
Mississippi,
for
those
t
9
10
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12
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15
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0
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22
2
3
2
4
25
54
of
you
who
are
perhaps
interested
in
doing
business
with
EPA
Region
4,
there
are
two
contact
persons
that
could
kelp
you
with
EPW
direct
procurement,
Matt
Robson,

Award
Division
Grant
Management
EPA
Region
4
Office
Atlanta,
Georgia,
and
Rafael
Samora,
who
is
the
MBE­
WBE
coordinator
out
of
Region
4.
Both
of
those
people
will
be
able
to
assist
you
and
give
you
more
specific
information
on
doing
business
and
contracting
through
EPA
Region
4.

NOW,
to
talk
about
Mississippi.

Mississippi
is
under
a
central
procurement
System,
so
for
those
persons
who
want
to
do
business
with
the
state
of
Mississippi
in
the
are
of
goods
and
services,

your
contact
would
be
through
the
Office
of
Finance
and
Administration.
Mr,
Gary
Anderson
the
Walter
Sills
Building,
1800
High
Street,
Jackson,
Mississippi,
39209
would
be
the
zip
code.

Now,
I
encourage
you,
if
you
are
a
person
who
is
providing
services
and
goods
to
follow
up
with
this
contact
because
the
state
of
Mississippi's
current
director
of
finance
and
administration
is
a
minority
gentleman
who
has
expressed
interest
in
getting
more
minorities
and
WBEs
into
our
state
procurement
system.

So
it
would
be
an
opportune
time
to
contact
and
share
information
about
your
businesses
and
the
goods
and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
la
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
5
5
services
that
you
can
provide
to
the
state
of
Mississippi,

NOW,
in
terms
of
the
Mississippi
Department
of
Environmental
Quality,
which
is
the
agency
which
I
work
for,.
which
is
a
state
agency,

though
we
procure
most
of
our
goods
through
the
state
procurement
system,
we
do
contract
out
for
quite
a
few
services.
And
the
contact
person
in
my
department
for
services
that
you
wish
to
provide
our
department
would
be
John
Fouls.
He
is
the
director
of
our
Support
Division.
His
address
is
Post
Office
B
o
x
10385,

Jackson,
Mississippi,
39289.
He
also
can
be
reached
by
phone
at
area
code
601­
961­
5171.
He
handles
a
l
l
of
our
direct
procurement,
all
of
our
contracting
needs.

We
have
contracting
needs
in
the
area
of
consulting
in
environment
­
­
various
environmental
issues.
We
have
contracting
needs
in
terms
of
management
training.
We
have
technical
needs
in
the
research
area.
It
varies,
and
John
is
the
person
who
knows
what
we
are
contract
­
­
what
we
are
looking
for
at
various
times,
so
this
is
your
point
of
contact.

NOW,
in
terms
of
the
SRF
program
and
providing
any
services
under
the
SRF
program,
the
MBE­
WBE,
our
program
is
construction
only.
We
have
an
MBE
and
WBE
directory
that
we
publish
and
provide
to
L
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
0
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
1
6
1
7
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
5
6
our
loan
recipients.
If
you
are
a
firm
that
offers
services
in
the
construction
field
or
construction­

related
areas,
your
point
of
contact
is
Mary
Katherine
Brown,
Mississippi
Department
of
Environmental
Quality,

Post
Office
Box
1
0
3
8
5
,
Jackson,
Mississippi,
3
9
2
8
9
.

Now,
what
I
usually
am
looking
for
to
place
a
business
in
our
directory
is,
I
need.
a
description
of
your
services
that
you
provide,
a
copy
of
your
current
certification
and
a
contact
person
within
your
agency
that
does
your
quoting
and/
or
either
does
your
development
of
proposals.
That
is
the
information
I
need
before
I
can
place
you
in
a
directory
that
we
provide
to
all
of
our
loan
recipients,

Basically
we
put
approximately
$
3
2
million
each
year
out
for
bid
through
our
loan
recipients,
but
it
is
all
construction
and
construction­
related
money,

so
it's
a
nice
pot,
and
we
do
provide
them
with
the
MBEs
and
WBEs
that
they
are
to
contact
and
try
and
contract
with.
They
can
use
someone
that
is
not
in
our
directory,
but
they
must
submit
that
MBE
and
WBE
for
our
approval.
Okay,
thank
you.

DR.
RAMSEY:
Region
5,
who
is
going
to
tell
us
about
contracting
officers
in
region?
Any
states
here
to
participate
with
you?
57
MS.
DARLENE
HAINER:
Hello,
everybody,
how
are
we
doing?
My
name
is
Darlene
Hainer,
I
`
m
not
the
MBE­
WBE
coordinator
for
the
region,

analyst
on
the
staff
sf
acquisition
and
assistance.

Our
MBE­
WBE
coordinator
is
Robert
Richardson.
Re
is
not
here
at
the
moment.

would
like
to
ask
Bob,
you
can
get
ahold
of
him
by
e­
mailing
RICHARDSON.
RQBERT@
EPA.
GOV.

questions
you
would
like
to
ask,
send
me,

HAPNER.
DARLENE@
EPA.
GOV.
Our
addresses
at
EPA
are
the
same,

ahold
of
them.
I
`
m
the
procurement
If
you
have
any
questions
you
If
you
have
any
so
if
YOU
get
somebody's
name,
that's
how
you
get
I
can't
talk
too
much
about
the
assistance
program,
I`
m
still
learn
being
that;
however,
in
direct
procurement,
we
have,
we
have
joined
as
a
partnership
with
QUI
superfunded
vision
to
identify
requirements
that
we
have
been
getting
from
the
large
remedial
contractors
and
also
from
other
removal
contractors
and
we've
been
splitting
out
some
of
those
requirements
that
have
been
separable
and
been
awarding
those
to
8­
A
contractors.

We
have
done
things
like
the
engineering
environmental
cost
assessments
for
removal
projects,

title
searches
f
o
r
the
big
remedial.
projects.
We`
re
doing
community
involvement
­
­
for
somebody
to
do
a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
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0
11
1
2
13
14
15
16
17
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0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
25
k
1
­.
Y
9
B
O
11
12
1
3
17
1%

2
5
5
8
logistic
for
that,
but
the
remedial
program,
we
have
some
transactional
databases,
which
I
havenIt
been
able
to
figure
out
what
it
is
that
they
want
so
­
­
but
we
have
formed
a
partnership
with
superfunds
to
do
that,

We
have
a
few
other
requirements
that
we
have
set
aside
for
%­
A.
We
have
a
hazardous
waste
deposit
which
is
transportation
­
­
of
hazardous
waste
from
OUT
central
regional
laboratory
and
also
from
our
research
vessel
Lake
Guardian,
which
­
­
to
Lake
Michigan
and
other
Great
Lakes
collecting
scientific
data.
So
you
can
contact
me
about
any
of
that,
contact
Bob
about
his
assistance.

We
do
have
a
listing
available
of
our
prime
contractors
that
you
can
contact
for
subcontracting
opportunities,
and
we
also
have
a
listing
available
of
our
state
contacts,
points
of
contacts
in
the
states
who
you
can
contact
for
assistance
opportunities
and
procurements
under
assistance.

If
you
just
send
me
an
e­
mail
or
send
Bob
an
e­
mail,
I
will
make
sure
we
get
them
into
the
e­
mail
if
you
provide
your
address.

on
the
web
site,
but
I'm
currently
trying
to
do
that
and
50,000
other
things
at
the
same
time,
so
it's
going
We
will
be
posting
them
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
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2
2
3
2
4
2
5
5
9
MS.
DEBQRA
BRADFORD:
Hi,
I'm
Debora.
I
'
m
the
region
­
­
MBE­
WBE
coordinator
for
Region
6
in
Dallas,
Texas,
and
the
states
that
I
am
involved
with
are
Arkansasl
Louisiana,
New
Mexico,
Oklahoma
and
Texas.
I
I
m
just
going
to
­
­
in
other
regions
we
have
an
information
package
that
we
give
out
to
potential
vendors
and
colleagues
at
trade
shows.
We
have
an
information
packet,
and
in
that
packet
we
have
a
­
­

this
is
a
one­
pager,
and
it
has
a
lot
of
the
internet
sites
that
we
thought
might
be
useful
to
vendors.

I
do
encourage
vendors,
if
you're
going
to
do
business
and
you're
goin@
to
do
business
in
the
state,
make
sure
you
get
state
certified
because
a
lot
of
the
state
agencies,
theyfre
going
to
tell
you
they
can't
do
anything
with
you
unless
you're
certified
with
the
state.
So
if
you
are
going
to
do
business
in
a
particular
state,
make
sure
you
are
on
their
certification
list
because,
if
you're
not,
you
are
not
going
to
be
in
the
business,
you
are
not
known,
it's
better'to
not
suffer
than
not
to
know
nothing
at
all,

There
are
databases
that
we
encourage
vendors
to
make
sure
that
they
go
to
and
make
sure
their
company
is
listed.
All
it
takes
is
a
few
minutes
to
go
ProNet
and
make
sure
your
company
is
there,
to
go
to
that
Phoenix
database,
they
call
it
MBDA,
make
sure
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
%

9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1%

19
20
21
22
23
24
25
6
8
your
company
is
listed
because,
when
they
come
to
me,
I
refer
them
to
those
databases,
so
it's
to
your
advantage
to
make
sure
your
company
is
in
there.

Also,
I
learned
about
GSA
certification.

I
believe
it's
on
line.
You
can
go
out
there
and
check
out
GSA
because
GSA
does
a
lot
of
procurement
for
the
federal
government
depending
on
type
of
services
so,

you
know,
you
have
to
check
out
GSA.
And
on
this
particular
page
I
list
the
state
finance
offices,

agency,
because
they
do
have
central
information
agents
And.
then
we
have
a
web
site
as
well,
but
I
do
a
lot
of
connection
to
OSDBU
because
OSDBU
is
the
agency
over
all
­
­
the
are
the
machine
that
facilitates
all
the
regions,
and
we
have
a
lot
more
information.
And
with
that,
I'm
going
to
turn
it
over
to
Kathy
Robbins
who
is
with
TNRCC,
and
she
is
one
of
the
lead
environmental
agencies
within
the
state.
A
lot
of
OUT
grants
go
to
TNRCC,
and
Patricia
Loving,
Texas
Water
Development
Board.
She's
in
SRF
development
and
they
have
the
SRF
program
e
And
I
do
want
to
say,
when
you're
putting
your
information
on
ProNet
and
or
MBD,
the
registration
database,
be
as
thorough
as
you
can
because,
when
I
was
looking
for
some
procurement
this
week
and
I
was
going
1
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
IO
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1%

19
20
21
22
23
24
25
61
through
ProNet,
and
you
all
may
have
the
zip
code
down
there,
but
you
don`
t
tell
me
that,
don`
t
tell
me
nothing,
really.
I
mean,
go
ahead,
you
know,
tell
me
a
little
bit
about
your
company,
A
lot
of
you
all
may
even
just
leave
it
blank,
so
then
that
means
that
I`
m
going
to
go
right
on
by
you
because
you're
not
telling
me
what
I'm
looking
for,
So
I
encourage
you
all,
when
you
go
in
and
register
on
the
database,
to
be
specific
on
the
type
of
services
and
goods
that
you
provide.

Right
now
I`
ll
turn
it
to
Kathy
Robbins.

MS.
KATHY
ROBBINS:
I
am
Kathy
Robbins,

Texas
Natural
Resource
Conservation
Commission.
I
want
to
expand
a
little
bit
on
what
Debora
was
just
saying.

We
do
have
a
central
procurement
system
in
Texas;
it's
the
General
Services
Commission.
However,
a
lot
of
the
purchasing
is
,
delegated
back
to
the
agencies
depending
on
dollar
thresholds.

We
had
some
legislation
passed
at
this
last
session,
it`
s
just
now
come
into
effect
June
1.

It
is
now
law
that
every
contract
which
is
­
­
which
receives
$
100,000
must
contain
a
subcontracting
plan
and
that,
if
the
agency
determines
there
are
subcontracting
opportunities
and
they
have
added
a
little
teeth
to
our
program
they
we
call
the
Historically
Underutilized
Business
Program
in
that
if
p"
t
9
10
11
12
1
3
17
18
2
0
2
2
2
3
2
4
6
2
a
vendor
submits
a
bid
and
they
do
not
submit
that
plan
back
with
their,
with
their
bid,
or
if
they
don't
justify.
why
they
are
not
subcontracting,
or
they
have
not
certified
that
they
can
do
all
the
work
themselves,
then
their
bid
i
s
considered
nonresponsive.

And
also,
it's
also
in
that
legislation
that
the
agencies
will
track
all
the
subcontracting.

As
we
heard
this
morning,
a
lot
of
vendors
have
learned
to
play
the
game.
They
assure,
will
do
30
percent,"

and
they
do
zero.
Well,
now
we
have
legislation
that
says
that
we
track
that.
The
vendor
has
to
justify
why
they
are
not
using
their
subcontractors.
If
we
are
not
satisfied
with
the
justification,
we
can
cancel
that
contract
and
they
can
be
debarred
from
doing
other
contracts
with
our
agency.
So
it
has,
like
I
sayd
a
little
teeth
to
it
now.

One
more
thing
also
that
came
out
this
past
session,
General
Services
Commission
is
also
our
HUB
certifying
agency;
however,
though
the
legislation
this
year
said,
to
be
a
HUB,
for
us
to
get
credit,
the
principal
place
of
business
must
be
in
Texas
and
the
owner
must
reside
in
Texas,
so
we
are
going
to
see
how
that's
going
to
affect
other
programs.

Just
one
other
thing,
the
state
of
Texas,

any
contract
over
$
100,000
must
be
posted
to
the
Texas
63
marketplace,
and
that
web
site
is
through
our
Texas
Department
of
Economic
Development.
That
web
site
is
WWW.
TDED.
STATE.
TX.
US
and,
like
I
say,
every
state
agency
must
post
their
bids
out
there
in
that
marketplace.
I
will
go
ahead
and
let
Patricia
speak
and
then
we'll
answer
questions.

MS.
PATRICIA
LOVING:
As
a
follow­
up
to
Kathy,
I
want
to
mention
that
the
GSC,
if
you
want
to
the
get
on
the
state
procurement
certification,
their
web
site
is
WWW.
GSC.
STATE,
TX.
US.
I'm
responsible
for
the
SRF
programs
at
the
Water
Development
Board
and
also
for
the
clean
air
waste
water
treatment
programs,

which
are
specific
programs
for
the
­
­
down
in
the
border
area.
They
also
have
to
follow
water
procurement
requirements,
and
our
program
is
basically
what
you
heard
from
New
York,
that
we
have
intended
use
,

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
16
1
7
18
19
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
plans
you
have
to
be
on,
and
when
we
publish
those
intended
use
plans,
they
are
available
for
­
­
you
may
ask
for
one
of
those
as
an
engineer
and
then
you
can
find
out
the
entities
with
whom
we
were
considering
contracting
with
or
if
they
want
to
come
in
and
get
an:

kind
of
loan
monies.

Our
requirements,
we
have,
we
have
goals
set
that
were
set
with
EPA
in
construction
services,

equipment,
and
supplies,
so
we
have
eight
different
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
6
4
goals
that
we
put
in
our
contracting
for
our
drinking
water
plans
and
clean
water
programs,
and
thatfs
basically
it.

M
S
.
DEBORA
BRADFORD:
Any
questions?
If
not,
Region
7
.

MR.
ANTHONY
LEMASTER:
My
name
is
Anthony
LeMaster.
1
8
m
located
in
Region
7,
Kansas
City,

Kansas.
And
we
serve
the
states
of
Missouri,
Kansas
Iowa
and
Nebraska.
My
roll
is
to
locate
MBE
and
WBE
firms
on
the
direct
procurement
side
of
the
house,
and
as
Romona
mentioned
earlier,
a
list
of
contract
opportunities
can
be
found
on
OSDBU's
home
page
showing
who
the
point
of
contacts
are
for
each
contract
that
is
listed.

I
am
going
to,
at
this
time,
ask
that
my
grant
specialist
Sabre
Whitt,
who
I
don't
see
now,

speak
on
SRF
and
other
grant­
related
issues.

MS,
SABRE
WHITT:
.
Hello,
everyone.
I`
m
just
going
to
speak
briefly
about
our
assistance
agreements
in
Region
7
.
Approximately
8
0
percent
of
our
assistance
agreements
funding
goes
to
our
four­

state
region.
As
far
as
state
revolving
loan
funds,
I
donJt
have
any
specific
information
for
you
at
this
time.
My
e­
mail
address
is
EPA.
WHITT.
SABRE@
EPA.
GOV.

What
I
will
do,
however,
is
I'm
going
to
rely
on
Tom
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
6
5
Lamberson
from
Nebraska
to
give
you
an
example
of
what
procurement
opportunities
exist
in
his
state.
Thank
you
D
MR.
TOM
LAMBERSON:
I`
m
Tom
Lamberson.
1
am
with
the
Department
of
Environmental
Quality
in
the
state
of
Nebraska
and
am
responsible
for
all
of
the
procurement
of
forest
services
in
Nebraska,
as
well
as
some
of
the
other
states.
I've
heard,
as
a
central
purchasing
bureau
for
commodities,
if
you're
interested
in
getting
on
the,
on
the
bidder's
list
for
commodities,
you
need
to
contact
t
e
state
of
Nebraska
Department
of
Administrative
Services,
Materials
Division,
and
I
apologize,
I
donlt
have
their
address,

So
if
you
would
like
to
get
ahold
sf
me,
P
will
give
you
my
phone
number
later.
I
will
be
glad
to
get
you
in
touch
with
them.

Our
department
contracts
for
a
significant
number
of
activities
mostly
in
the
technical
area.
We,

like
a
lot
of
other
states,
are
looking
at
hiring
freezes
and
staff
freezes
and
staffing
reductions
and
our
contracting
opportunities
are
only
going
to
increase.
Our
goal
is
for
its
ample
staffing,
it`
s
a
5
percent
reduction
in
staff
from
what
I
am
now
until
July
1
of
2001,
I
will
have
5
percent
less
folks,
which
just
increases
the
opportunity
to
look
at
outside
ti
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
24
25
6
6
services
a
As
examples
of
what
we
utilize
outside
services
for,
we
utilize
laboratory
services
for
both
chemical
and
biological
activities.
We
utilize
consulting
firms
for
sampling
remediation­
type
activities.
We
use
outside
consultants
f
o
r
facilitation
technical
writing
types
of
activities.
As
an
example,
we
are
in
the
process
of
revamping
a91
our
and
reviewing
all
our
permitting
processes.
We
are
using
outside
consultants
to
walk
our
programs
through
those
or
will
be
using
outside
consultants
to
walk
our
programs
through
all
of
those
activities
so
we
can
look
at
making
them
more
efficient,
and
then
developing
­
­

the
consultants
will
then
develop
the
protocols
and
do
the
training
of
staff
to
complete
the
loop.

We
use
outside
consultants
for
permit
writing
both
in
our
all
air
programs
and
in
our
water
programs.
We
hire
almost
all
of
our
­
­
all
of
our
computer
programming
activities
come
from
the
outside.

They
generally
come,
however,
from
state
contracts,
so
you
would
have
to
be
a
state
contract
to
use
those,
We
also
hire
a
number
of
data
entry
individuals
and
companies.

All
of
our
training,
virtually­
all
our
training,
both
management
technological,
health
and
i­
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
0
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
1
6
1
7
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
6
7
safety
is
contracted
for
as
those
are
examples
of
the
types
of
services
that
we
look
outside
for.
We,
if
we
have
commodity
or
service
items
'
over
$
25,0QQ,
unless
there's
an
emergency
or,
or
another
significant
reason
to
sole
source,
those
are
all
put
out
as
RPs
or
bid
documents.
Under
$
2
5
,
0
0
0
we
need
to
get
a
minimum
of
three
bids
either
in
writing,
small
contracts
we
can
do
telephone
bids.

Nebraska,
particularly,
is
a
very
rural
state,
particularly
from
Lincoln,
west.
We
simply
do
not
hare
a,
have
a
huge
minority
of
a
women's
business
pool.
We
are
very
interested
in
expanding
the
pool.
I
will
give
you
my
name
and
phone
number,
address,
et
cetera,
and
look
forward
to
any
of
the
vendors
here
to
fit
into
one
of
the
categories
I've
described.
And
if
you
do
utilize
commodities
or
have
commodities,
I
will
pass
that
information
along
to
the
proper
people.

Again,
my
name
is
Tom
Lamberson
L­
a­
m­
b­
e­
r­
s­
o­
n.
My
address
is
Box
9
8
9
2
2
,
Lincoln,

Nebraska,
6
8
5
0
9
.
My
fax
is
4
0
2
­
4
7
1
­
2
9
0
9
.
And
my
telephone
number,
direct
number,
is
4
0
2
­
4
7
1
­
4
2
3
5
.
And
I
look
forward
to
visiting
with
that
business,
with
the
number
of
vendors
­
­
I
visited
with
a
number
of
the
vendors
earlier.
I
look
forward
to
you
contacting
me.

Walter,
did
you
want
to
talk
a
little
bit?
Ijw
B
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
1
0
11
1
2
13
14
1
5
16
17
1
8
E
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
6
8
While
Walter
is
coming
up,
I
would
mention
that
we
put
on
the
internet
all
of
our
RPs,
and
we
also
do
public
notices
on
the
internet
through
the
state
of
Nebraska,
Department
of
Administrative
Services,
and
so
if
you
would
look
on
the
state
web
page,
you
could
find
any
RP
that
we
put
out
and
most
other
states
put
out.

MR.
WALTER
PEARSON:
Again,
my
name
is
Walter
Pearson,
and
I
am
the
director
of
Business
and
Urban
Affairs
for
the
Missouri
Department
of
Natural
Resources,
but
before
I
start
to
tell
you
about
the
opportunities
that
the
state
of
Missouri
has
for
women
and
minorities,
I
want
to
give
you,
kind
of
give
you
a
little
bit
of
background,
just
briefly.

Prior
to
coming
on
as
a
director
for
me
in
Department
of
Natural
Resource
in
the
area
of
business
development,
it
was
decided
my
other
life
was
deputy
director
for
Missouri
Department
of
Economic
Development.
And
in
doing
so,
in
1988
there
was
some
legislation
passed
as
a
result
of
the
Richmond
and
Croson
case,
so
after
the
legislation
was
passed,
it
was
one
of
the
unfunded
legislation.

In
93
we
received
the
appropriation
to
do
a
disparity
study,
and
fortunately
enough
I
had
the
responsibility
of
doing
the
statewide
disparity
studies.
For
those
of
you
who
have
done
disparity,
you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
%

9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
1
7
1%

1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
which
is
Dr.

Ramsey
prior
the
outset,
6
9
know
they
can
range
from
a
$
1
0
0
,
0
0
0
up
to
a
million
dollars,
depending
on
the
size
of
the
state.
While
having
that
responsibility
and
not
knowing
anything
about
MBE
and
WBE,
particularly
coming
from
corporate
America,
I
put
together
a
group
of
state
government,

and
the
consultants
that
we
hired
to
do
the
statebs
disparity
study
is
the
facilitator
for
this
program,

Ramsey
I
can
say
that
I
had
a
meeting
with
Dr.

to
conducting
the
study
and
I
told
her
at
hat,
that
I
needed
to
have
direct
contact
with
her
from
beginning
to
end
because
either
this
would
hurt
my
career
or
make
my
career
better.
And
I
can
say
that
we
did,
Dr.
Ramsey
produced
an
excellent
product,
and
one
of
the
assuring
things
we
did,
and
I
had
asked
her
that
this
must,

and
WBE
program,
that
it
must
withstand
scrutiny,
and
it
must
stand
in
a
court
of
law,
in
other
words,
it
must
be
a
defensible
document,
particularly
if
we
have
an
MBE­
WBE
program.
if
we
implement
an
MBE
Prior
to
Dr.
Ramsey
coming
on
board
we
had
included
in
that
executive
order
an
affirmative
action
plan,
we
included
a
procurement
plan,
a
procurement
goal,
which
is
5
percent
across
the
board,
5
percent
for
women,
5
percent
for
MBEs
as
well.
After
the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
If
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
0
study,
we
were
put
in
a
position
­
­
I
say
we
were
put
in
a
position,
but
after
the
study,
we
established
some
rules,
new
rules,
and
race­
conscious
programs
at
that
point
went
from
5
percent
across
the
board
to
a
10
percent
executive
order
and
for
MBEs
and
5
percent
for
WBEs.
The
reason
being,
even
though
the
study
showed
a
higher
disparity
in
terms
of
those
categories
in
terms
of
construction
procurement
and
the
lottery,
the
lottery
being
the
statutory
goal
of
10
percent,
is
that
the
government
felt
that,
it's
difficult
to
try
and
pass
legislation.

So
what
the
governor
did
was
j
u
s
t
to,
to
have
a
PO
percent,
even
though
there
was
a
20
percent
desire
goal,
we
decided
­
­
the
governor
decided
that
we
would
just
do
a
10
percent
and
a
5
percent
for
WBE,
but
it
was
a
desired
goal
for
20
p
rcent.

Well,
in
the
state
of
Missouri,
in
terms
of
what
we
have
in
terms
is
of
central
procurement,
I
notice
some
of
you
talk
about
the
central
procurement,

and
I
guess
we
are
no
different
than
any
other
state,

but
what
we
found
out
is
that,
before
we
went
into
a
certification
process,
it
was
a,
just
a
good­
faith
registration.
It
was,
if
you
say
you
were
MBE,
you
registered.
If
you
say
you
were
WBE,
you
registered.

So
our
database
was
like
3,000.
I
guess
it
was
over
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
I1
12
13
14
15
16
I7
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
71
3,
QQO.
After
the
study
was
done
and
there
was
a
time
period
where
you
have
to
3,000
down
to
200.

NOW,
let
me
have
goods
and
services,

but
we
also
have
a
divis
be
certified,
it
went
from
explain.
What
happened
is
we
and
through
state
government,

on
which
is
design
and
construction,
so
the
study
that
we
did,
we
didn't
even
study
all
the
state
procurement
because
it
would
have
cost
us
millions
of
dollars,
so
there
was
three
areas
we
studied,
central
purchasing,
design
and
construction
and
also
the
lottery,
the
lottery,
well,
having
a
goal
of
ten
percent,
so
it
was
even.

Because
t
h
a
t
was
part
of
Lhe
goal
for
the
legislation,
in
doing
so,
when
the
certification
became
an
implementation
program,
it
really
hurt
us
as
an
agency
because
we
knew,
in
order
for
us
to
get
credit
of
doing
business
with
women
and
minorities,
we
needed
a
much
larger
pool
to
select
from,
so
it
really
hurt
us
as
agencies
in
the
state
government.
But
now
we
have
a
much
larger
pool
to
select
from
because,
in
order
for
us
to
get
credit,
you
must
be
certified.

Having
said
that,
the
state
of
Missouri
is
working
very
diligently
to
try
to,
in
areas
of,
in
terms
of
how
we
can
increase
minority
participation
and
a
lot
of
things
we
are
doing
in
terms
of
outreach,
and
P
1
9
10
11
12
13
17
18
2
5
I
I
7
2
I
think
one
of
the
things
in
my
own
mind
is
that
the
bottom
line
is
that
the
objective
is
to
help
small
businesses
grow.

We
run
into
all
kinds
of
barriers.
We
run
into
all
kinds
of
situations,

that,

they
brought
me
from
economic
development
over
to
DNR,

well,
itls
difficult
to
­
­
some
of
you
who
are
engineers,
you
do
a
certain
thing
for
so
long,

try
to
make,
you
know,
have
a
much
broader
perspective
in
terms
of
fairness,
it's
a
job.
It's
a
job.

Educating
is
a
job,
training
individuals
in
terms
of
how
to
be
more
equitable
and
fair.
and
one
of
the
things
in
talking
with
the
legislators
and
governors,

and
to
But
one
of
the
things,
i
would
challenge
you
to
continue
to
try
to
educate,
you
know,
youfre
constituents.

grantee
because
I'm
sure
that,
for
the
most
part,
there
are
some
of
us,
I
call
them
the
dinosaurs,
these
are
people
who
have
been
there
for
so
long
and
they
just
haven't
learned
there
is
a
new
way
of
doing
business.

And
we
get
out
of
the
framework
to
make
them
start
doing
it
because
things
change
and
I
think,

most
part,
you
will
probably
start
seeing
a
­
­

Let
me
end
by
saying
that,
in
the
Try
to
educate
your
recipients
and
your
for
the
certification
process
is
that
the
general
purchasing,
e:

t
­.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1%

19
20
21
22
23
24
25
73
we
have
a
way
to
­
­
because
accounting
system
goes
through
general
purchasing
there
is
based
upon
the
object
codes,
there
is
a
flag
it
identifies
if
this
company's
MBE
and
WBE
on
all
purchases,
even
in
contracts.
SO
I
get
a
report,
a
quality
report
and,

well,
not
a
report
but
a
summary,
because
1
can't
deal
with
them
reports,
itls
too
­
­
but
I
deal
with
a
summary,
but
I
can
tell
exactly
from
that
report
that
I
get
on
how
many
MBEs,
in
terms
of
dollars,
that
the
actual
dollars
that
were
paid
and
who
the
MBEs
and
WBEs
were.
And
I
think,
for'the
most
part,
when
this
information
is
disseminated
and
you
as
leaders
begin
to
look
at
this
report
­
­
I
think
that
I
applaud
New
York
because
I
think
that
people
like
New
York
and
other
people
who
look
at
it
that
way
in
terms
of
the
actual
reports
and
what
can
we
do
as
administrators
to
try
to
make
the
program
more
successful,
I
think
the
outcome
is
we
move
to
the
21st
century.

I
think,
for
the
most
part,
we
will
probably
start
seeing
a
lot
of
things
change
in
terms
of
new
rules
but,
for
the
most
part,
I
think
that
you
will
see
that
there
are
companies
out
there
that
will
be
willing
and
able
to
do
the
job
and
there
are
opportunities,
and
I
don't
want
anybody
to
be
missing
the
opportunities.
i.
f
B
P
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9
4
But
if
you
will
see
me,
and
I
will
give
you
my
business
card!
you
can
look
up
the
state
of
Missouri
and
see
exactly
what
we
are
doing
becaused
not
only
is
it,
is
it
that
we're
looking
for
the
procurement
and
MBEs
and
WBEs,
but
we've
also
included
a
scholarship
program
that
will
help
minority
students
but,
for
the
most
part,
there
aren,
t
a
lot
in
my
state
of
minority
students
who
are
majoring
in
the
natural
sciences
and
in
the
state
capital
of
Missouri,
even
though
you
do
recruit
them,
for
the
most
part,
they
donft
want
to
move
to
Jefferson
City
Missouri.
But
there
are
other
things
we
are
trying
to
do
to
improve
opportunities,
not
only
from
the
procurement
aspect,

but
also
from
the
education
as
well.
Thank
you.

DR.
RAMSEY:
Can
you
share
with
us
opportun
ties
in
the
state
of
Kansas?

MR.
TQMMIE
SMITH:
How
much
time
do
we
have,
two
minutes?
Given
the
fact
that
I
was
just
told
about
a
minute
ago
that
I
J
m
supposed
to
do
this,
I
think
that
probably
the
best
I
can
do
is
to
give
you
my
name
and
address,
and
in
the
state
Kansas
mostly
everything
is
done
through
the
Division
of
Environment,

so
if
you
could
write
this
down,
T.
Smith
is
my
web.

My
e­
mail
address
TSMITH@
KDHE.
STATE.
KS.
US.
My
address
is
Kansas
Department
of
Health
and
Environment,
9
0
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
0
If
1
2
1
3
1
4
15
16
1
7
1
8
19
2
0
2
1
22
2
3
24
25
7
5
Southwest
Jackson,
Suite
965,
Topeka,
Kansas,
66612.

Phone
number
is
785­
296­
1997.

One
thing
I
put
together
the
last
year
was
a
thing
regarding
the
four
categories
for
the
Division
of
Environment
and
what
it
does
is
list
all
of
the
SIC
codes
or
NAICS
codes
by
supplier,
construction
equipment,
and
whatfs
the
other.
one?
­
­
and
services.

So
if
any
of
you
want
a
copy
of
that,
I
can
give
you
a
copy
of
that,
any
of
the
vendors,
that
way
you
know
about
the
things
we
do
in
the
state
of
Kansas.

But
I
think,
right
now
the
fiscal
year
is
closing,
so
I
didn't
get
a
chance
to
get
the
awards.

We
do
have
a
rule
in
Kansas
where
they
cut
down
all
of
the
business
by
the
second
weekend
in
May
so
you
don't
have
a
chance
to
buy
anything
in
terms
of
bidding
stuff
Pike
after
May
15.
So
anyway,
get
in
touch
with
me
and
I
will
get
you
the
information.
Thank
you.

DR.
RAMSESI:
LetIs
have
Region
8.

MR.
MAURICE
VELASQUEZ:
For
those
of
you,

Maurice
Velasquez,
Region
8
program
for
minority
and
women
businesses
in
the
states
of
Colorado,
Montana,

Wyoming,
Utah
and
North
and
South
Dakota.
And
as
you
all
probably
are
aware,
these
are
rural
states,
for
the
most
part.
The
populations
are
largest
in
the
states
of
Utah
and
Colorado,
so
we
focus
a
lot
of
efforts
in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
76
those
two
states.
We
have
very
low
goals.
The
other
states
in
Region
8,
we
buy
all
the
types
of
goods
and
services
like
are
listed
in
the
Doing
Business
With
EPA
books.
In
commodities
you
will
find
pretty
much
the
same
stuff
that
is
purchased
in
our
region
that
youflll
find
listed
in
that
document.

I
deal
primarily
with
two
people.
In
the
small
purchase
office
it's
Virginia
Burns,

Kayman
in
the
superfunds
contracts
area,
and
Mark
and
he
also
assists
in
identifying
8­
A
contracts
in
other
programs.

And
those
people
can
be
found
on
our
web
page
under
their
CABA.
MARK@
EPA.
.
I
and
Virginia
Burns,

BURNS.
VA@
EPA
.
.
.

Like
a
lot
of
the
have
central
purchasing
states
a
litt
other
states,
Region
8
processes,
and
so
that's
e
bit
difficult
sometim
s
for
minority
businesses
to
penetrate
and
get
involved
in
those
kinds
of
processes.

time
to
do
some
focused
outreach.
We
are
going
to
do
a
couple
of
sessions
in,
one
on
the
eastern
slope
and
then
one
on
the
western
slope,
and
so
we
are
looking
at
assisting
the
state
with
their
Office
of
Economic
Development
to
do
a
better
job
of
outreach.
We
are
working
with
Colorado
at
this
The
Colorado
representative
had
to
leave
early,
so
she
isn't
here,
but
we
Just
were
discussing
1
2
3
4'

5
6
7
8
9
10
11
13
17
18
25
this
a
week
ago,
and
I
think
this
is
going
to
be
of
great
benefit
to
the
businesses,
primarily
in
the
state
of
Colorado
and
maybe
northern
New
Mexico
and
Utah
and
any
other
states
that
have
­
­
or
businesses,
you
know,

representing
other
agencies
and
have
an
interest
in
doing
business
in
our
region,
so
thatIs
something
that
we
are
going
to
be
doing
now,

We've
also
done
quite
a
lot
in
outreach
efforts
toward
Indian
businesses,
so
I
think
we
are
realizing
some
good
benefits
as
far
as
thatBs
concerned.
So
it's
a
new
area
and
we
are
forming
some
new
partnerships
here
with
some
of
the
people
represented
that
are
going
to
assist
us
in
that
regard.

EPA
and
the
Superfund
program
gives
considerable
money
through
interagency
agreements
to
the
Department
of
Interior,
and
so
sometimes
people
donJt
understand
that
doing
business
with
EPA
may
be
dealing
with
recipients,
it
may
be
a
college,

university,
it
may
be
an
Indian
tribe
or
a
state
government,
and
so
when
people
understand
the
way
EPA
does
business,
then
I
think
they
can
see
the
business
opportunities
may
exist
for
their
firms
in
some
of
those
organizations
that
I
mentioned.

In
Region
8
we
have
an
organization
of
environmental
businesses
that
we
are
real
happy
with,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
I3
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
98
and
it
doesn't
represent
a31
of
the
businesses
in
the
I
I
regionl
there
are
about
150
firms
now
that
are
on
our
list,
and
there
are
approximately
250
in
the
region.

Therers
a
few
more
that
we
need
to
include,
and
we
are
going
t~
be
producing
a
CD
RQM
that
­
­
hopefully
we
will
be
producing
CD
RQMs
that
we
will
send
to
all
of
you
that
will
give
you
a
listing
of
all
the
firms
that
are
available
in
our
region
that
may
be
of
interest
to
you
c
The
brown
field
program
is
one
that
I
think
people
should
take
an
interest
in.
We
mentioned
earlier
in
the
program
that
that's
an
area
of
development
in
terms
of
EPA
programs
and
some
direction,
so
that
is,
you
know,
webre
talking
in
terms
of
funding
activities,
so
it's
good
to
get
into
programs
when
they
are
starting
out
and
YOU
establish
yourself
in
that
area
and
you
create
a
nitch
f
o
r
yourself,
and
so
you
see
that
happening
in
Region
8.

I
think,
at
the
present
time,
we
have
about
seven
brown
field
grants,
and
two
of
them
are
to
tribal
governments
and
the
rest
of
them
are
municipalities
and
region.
We
do
seminars
in
the
region
for
our
firms
as
often
as
we
can,
and
we
like
to
consider
ail
the
partners
that
we
have
in
the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
18
11
1
2
13
14
1
5
1
6
1
7
18
1
9
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
7
9
some
other
agency
that
has
environmental
mission
that
we
partner
with
and
provide
information
to
the
firms
in
our
region
so
that
they
can
learn
how
E
o
do
business
there.

EPA
puts
out
a
publication
called
"
While
Doing
Business
With
EPA,"
and
we
also
have
a
forecast
and
it
its
an
annual
forecast,
it's
updated
annually,

and
you
should
look
in
that
for
opportunities,
look
at
the
Commerce
Business
daily
because
a
lot
of
our
procurements
are
posted
in
that.

Our
labs,
we
have
a
lab
in
Region
%
,
an(

they
procure
materials.
I
think
itns
through
­
­
is
it
RTP,
or
is
it
­
­
the
labs?
The
regional
labs
have
their
needs
satisfied
through
RTP,
research
and
development.

r
UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Yes,
the
research
and
development
is
now
done
out
of
RTP
North
Atlanta.

MR.
MAURICE
VELASQUEZ:
So
if
any
firms
here
have,
Region
7,
Region
8,
North
Carolina,
EPA
is
the
one
that
handles
those
kinds
of
thing,
too.
I
think
that's
it.

DR.
RAMSEY:
Thanks
very
much,
Maurice.

Joe
from
Region
9
.
Do
you
have
any
of
your
states
with
you,
Joe?

MR.
JOE
OCHAB:
I
know
at
least
one
state
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
that
will
be
joining.

DR.
RAMSEY:
Okay,
great,
please
join,

Region
9.

MR,
JOE
QCHAB:
Good
afternoon,
I'm
Joe
Ochab
with
US
Environmental
Protection
Agency,
Region
9
,
I
f
m
the
womenfs
small
business
advocate
for
that
region,
and
in
Region
9
we
serve,
work
with
the
four
states
of
Arizona,
California,
Nevada
and
Hawaii,
as
well
as
the
Pacific
trust
territories,
Guam,
North
­
­

I
would
like
to
provide
some
general
information
about
how
we
do
business
in
Region
9
on
the
direct
procurement
side
and
how
we
have
advertised
opportunities
and
how
you
can
identify
those
opportunities,

little
bit
about
their
­
­
and
how
they
consider
small
business
minority
owned
businesses.
and
then
we
invite
our
states
to
speak
a
In
our
region,
EPA
provides
a
fax
sheet
called
"
Locating
Business
Opportunities
with
US
EPA,
A
Source
List
for
Small
Disadvantaged
Businesses
in
EPA
Region
9,"
and
I
would
be
happy
to
provide
you
this
fax
sheet
using
­
­
if
you
contact
me
at
the
e­
mail
address
that
I
put
on
the
sheet
over
here
on
my
right.

This
list
focuses
on
one
of
the
electronic
tools
that
you
can
use
or
ways
you
can
find
out
about
opportunities,
many
of
which
have
been
previously
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
18
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
1
6
1
7
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
81
mentioned,
the
OEM
web
site,
as
well
as
region,
as
well
as
other
national
office
ties
and
forecast
opportunities.

We
do
a
lot
of,
of
course,
simplified
acquisition
which
is
set
aside
for
small
businessesa
and
we,

procurement,
therefore,
have
used
quite
a
bit
of
the
small
small
purchase
electronic
data
and,

therefore,
we
recommend
highly
that
businesses
get
a
VIN
number
and
hook
up
with
that
system.

The
Commerce
Business
Daily
was
mentioned.

ThatIs
electronic
as
well
as
in
hard
copy.
We
also
have
prime
contractors
in
Region
9
.
We
highly
recommend
that
you
contact
them.
On
the
reverse
side
of
the
sheet
we
have
our
Region
9
Superfund
prime
contractors.

We
do
look
at
ProNet
and,
and
the
MBD
opportunities
database.
In
terms
of
­
­
I
also
might
mention
the
GSA
schedules.
It's
very
important
that
you
consider
getting
on
the
GSA
schedule.

up
a
lot
of
the
businesses
that
way
and
post
our
procurement
opportunities.
We
do
pick
Under
the
financial
assistance
agreements,

that
area
is
actually
the
largest
amount
of
procurement
in
Region
9,
EPA
Region
9.
We
­
­
I
am
presently
updating
our
list
of
state
minority
women
business
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
enterprise
contacts
ment
offices.
I
would
be
happy
to
forward
you
that
list
to
any
businesses
by
contacting
me
at
this
address,
and
that
will
give
you,

of
course,
the
biggest
opportunity
to
find,
find
out
what
the
states
under
other
EPA
systems
are
purchasing.

I
know
in
general
states
should
get
on
the
states
­
­
excuse
me
­
­
the
vendors
should
get
on
the
state's
builders,
lists,
and
thatBs
a
good
situation
for
you,
but
please
contact
me
at
this
e­
mail
address
if
you
have
any,
if
youBre
interested
in
getting
copies
of
this
fax
sheet.
If
there
is
a
potential
match,
I`
m
very
interested
in
getting
your
statement
of
qualification.
I
made
some
contacts
today.
I
enjoyed
meeting
you
at
the
various
booths
and
I
look
forward
to
assisting
you
in
the
future.
Thank
you.

MR.
BILLY
BISHOP:
My
name
is
Bill
Bishop.

My
address
is
Arizona
Department
of
Environment
Quality.
EPQ
is
the
lead
agency
for
MBE­
WBE
issues
with
EPA,
and
what
that
meansf
as
a
practical
matter
to
you
is,
as
a
vendor
there
is
15
agencies
I'm
speaking
for
right
now,
some
of
which
get
millions
of
dollars
worth
of
grants,
one
of
which
gets
a
thousand
dollar
grant,
so
we
are
all
over
the
place.

So
how
do
we
get
in
touch
with
these
folks?
The
way
you
want
to
do
that
is
to
register
with
B
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
$
3
the
state
procurement
office.

ways
you
can
do
that.

number
is
602­
542­
5511,
and
theyIre
also
on
the
web
and
you
can
­
­
they
have
vendor
registration
materials
there.
They
have
kind
of
a
strange
web
address.

HTTP://
and
then,
no
WWW,
just
SPORAS.
AD,
STATE.
AZ.
US.
There
is
a
couple
of
You
can
give
them
a
call,
their
It
is
Once
YOU
are
registered
on
that
list,

you'll
not
only
be
hearing
about
opportunities
from
EPQ
and
other
agencies
that
receive
federal
money,
but
all
state
agencies
that
have
formal
procurements
which
are
procurements
about
$
25,000
need
to
use
that
lift.

Recently
Governor
Hall
put
into
effect
an
executive
order
that,
for
all
procurements
below
$
25,000,

business,
so
that's
another
reason
it's
very
important
to
be
ora
our
staters
vendors#
list
because
we
need
that,
among
other
sources,
like
MBDA
and
ProNet
to
find
those
kinds
of
businesses
so
that
we
can
make
sure
we
are
including
them
on
some
of
these
smaller
solicitations.
we
need
to
solicit
a
minority
or
women­
owned
I
have
a
letter
here
that
kind
of
introduces
our
agency
and
what
kind
of
goods
and
services
we
have,
as
well
as
talking
to
you
about
the
state
procurement
office
and
the
opportunity
there
is,

I
will
leave
a
couple
of
copies
on
the
front
table
or,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
BB
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
16
1
7
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
if
you
can't
find
one
there,
just
please
do
come
up
and
ask
me
for
one.

The
state
procurement
office
web
site
is
also
good
for
finding
out
about
opportunities
in
terms
of
formal
procurement
and
smaller
ones.
We
also
have
a
fax
on
demand
system
that
you
can
call
up
from
time
to
time
and
find
out
about
opportunities.
The
number
for
that
is
6
0
2
­
5
4
2
­
2
0
5
0
,
and
it`
s
a
mini
driven
system.

It
will
walk
you
through
how
to
get
a
list
of
contracts
which
you
can
go
to
for
subcontractor
opportunities
and
a
list
of
current
procurement
opportunities.
Thank
you
a
MR.
GALEN
DENIO:
Good
afternoon.
Galen
Denio,

Nevada.
Nevada
has
a
central
procurement
process.
The
Department
of
Administration,
Purchasing
Division,
is
responsible
for
that.
You
can
find
the,
the
information
for
them
and
make
the
contacts
through
the
state
web
page
and
I
believe
it`
s
WWW.
STATE.
MW.
US
in
the
drinking
water
safety
revolving
funds.
supervisor
of
the
drinking
water
program
in
As
other
revolving
funds,
we
do
have
and
intended
use
plan
where
we
specify
the
use
of
the
monies.
Included
in
that
intended
use
plan
is
a
project
priority
list
which
identifies
all
the
projects.
The
IUP
is
important
because
it
sets
forth
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
the
amounts
of
money
and
types
of
projects
that
we
are
going
to
do
in
each
of
the
set­
aside
projects.

The
set­
asides
in
the
drinking
water
program
are
used
to
accomplish
specific
purposes.
We
use
it,
the
4
percent
set­
aside
is
used
for
administration
purpose,
and
we
do
some
contracting
there.
The
2
percent
set­
aside
is
used
for
technical,

small
water
systems.
AB1
of
that
money
is
contracted
out.
And
then
we
provide
technical
assistance
and
technical
managerial
and
financial
areas.
They
are
the
10
percent
set­
aside
and
15
percent
set­
aside.

We
do
capacity
development
for
water
systems,
education,
public
information
programs
and
source
of
water
protection
programs.
Clean
water
SRF
has
a
4
percent
set­
aside
which
is
used
for
administration,
and
the
rest
of
it
is
used
for
loaning
money
to
public
water
systems
or
public
waste
water
systems
I
should
mention,
and
it
hasnrt
really
been
clear,
Nevada
loans
money
both
to
privately­
owned
and
publicly­
owned
systems.
Privately­
owned
systems
present
a
bit
of
a
challenge
because
we
don't
go
through
the
traditional
review
that
public
systems
do.

It's
a
state
mandated
requirement
for
public
systems,

so
that
may
present
some
opportunities
for
some
9
10
11
1
2
13
1
4
1
5
16
17
18
L
4q
19
4
21
2
0
2
2
~

financial
management
areas
I
Other
agencies
that
u
s
e
procurement
are
­
­

Division
of
Nevada.
Department
of
Transportation
obviously
has
a
huge
program,
has
a
variety
of
needs,

~
as
you
can
imagine.
We
are
working
with
t
h
e
Small
1
Business
Development
Center
which
has
a
number
of
areas
around
the
state
to
do
outreach
to
provide
opportunities
for
the
small
businesses
throughout
the
state.

I
should
mention
kind
of
in
closing
that
that
is
a
very
diverse
state.
Most
of
our
population,

probably
80
or
90
percent
of
it
lives
in
highly
urbanized
areas.
The
remaining
10
percent
lives
in
the
rest
of
the
state,
and
Nevada,
I
think,
is
the
fifth
or
sixth
largest
state
in
the
union,
so
providing
opportunities
in
those
rural
areas
is
very
difficult.

As
I
recall,
Nevada
has
a
5
percent
preference
for
Nevada
businesses.
I
can
give
you
an
example.
A
business
opportunity
that
became
available
for
a
huge
construction
project
in
southern
Nevada
was
successfully
bid
by
an
Arkansas
firm.
They
bought
out
a
construction
company
in
Nevada
that
had
the
correction
licenses
to
do
that,
so
have
you
to
look
at­

each
state
in
order
to
make
sure
that
that's
not
­
­

that's
not
going
to
be
a
problem.
Business
licenses
t
P
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
10
1
2
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
87
and
professional
certification
licenses
may
be
very
important
and
you
have
to
check
with
respective
boards
in
order
to
make
sure
you
qualify.
Thank
you.

DR.
RAMSEY:
Region
IO?

MR.
MIKE
LETOURNEAU:
My
name
is
Mike
Letourneau,
Region
10
in
Seattle,
Washington.
I'm
a
coordinator
for
the
minority
business
women
enterprise
Program.
I'm
not
in
the
direct
procurement
office.

Y
o
u
provide
me
with
information,
I
will
get
it
to
those
folks
there,
so
I'm
not
speaking
to
procurement
opportunities.

E­
mail
address
is
LETOURNEAU.
MIKE@
EPA,
GOV,

My
telephone
is
206­
553­
1687.
One
of
the
things
that
I
would
also
encourage
folks
to
do,
like
Debora
did,
is
get
registered
on
ProNet
as
detailed
as
possible.

Also,
in
doing
work
in
the
Seattle
area,
in
particular
the
SBA
office
is
very
helpful.
Also
contact
them
or
contact
me
and
I
will
get
you
contacts
for
the
office.

One
of
the
things
in
meeting
here
in
the
last
couple
of
days
that
our
state
folks
have
encountered,
and
we
are
interested
in
hearing
back
fr
m
you
this
afternoon
or
talking
to
us
directly
or
through
e­
mail,
is
areas
where
there
are
contract
agreements
in
place
and
agencies
have
to
use
the
contracted
firms
in
order
to
procure
supplies
and
services.
I,
1
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
8
8
What
this
does
is
ends
up
preventing
the
use
of
minority
business
enterprises.
I
get
a
lot
of
reports
that
have
zeros
on
them
while
there
are
some
cases,
in
particular,
in
Oregonr
Boise,
Cascade,
where
they
provide
a
catalogue
for
identifying
minority
business
enterprises.
We
still
don't
have
enough
information
to
get
the
number
of
dollars
going
to
those
firms,
so
any
other
agencies
that
are
dealing
with
these
with
similar
issues,
if
you
can
let
us
know
how
we
might
be
able
to
work
within
that
system
to
get
more
minority
business
enterprises,
that
be
appreciated.

I
will
turn
it
over
to
Washington
and
Oregon.
I
would
also
like
to
recognize
Lucy
Alinson
who
came
from
Juneau,
Alaska,
to
be
here
today.

MR.
JOHN
NISPEL:
Good
afternoon.
My
name
is
John
Nispel.
I
am
with
the
Washington
State
Department
of
Ecology.
Like
many
other
states
Washington
state
has
a
central
procurement
agency,
the
Department
of
General
Administration,
that
purchases
the
majority
of
the
goods
and
commodities
for
the
state
of
Washington.

Minority
firms
are
encouraged
to
participate,
although
about
a
year
and
a
half
ago
our
state
passed
an
initiative
which
required
or
­
­

prohibited
the
state
from
using
race
or
gender
as
a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
%

9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
8
9
preference
in
purchasing,
so
we
still
have
an
outreach
program,
but
we
are
no
longer
able,
in
this
state,

unless
itjs
part
of
a
federal
program
and
required
as
part
of
the
funding
for
the
federal
program
to
grant
preference
to
minority
and
women
businesses,
But
there
are
still
many
opportunities
for
minority­
and
women­
owned
businesses
in
Washington
state
to
do
business.

Our
state
has
its
own
certification
agency.
The
Office
of
Minority
and
Women
Business
Enterprises.
Cathy
Canorro
was
here
earlier.

Apparently
she
is
no
longer
with
us
this
afternoon,

but
in
order
for
our
state
agencies
to
get
credit
for
participation
of
minorities,
the
firm
needs
to
be
certified
with
your
state
agency.

I
believe
the
main
web
site
for
the
state
of
Washington
is
WWW.
ACCESSWASHINGTON.
GOV,
but
I
can't
promise
that
that's
what
it
is.
So
if
someone
wants
to
give
me
an
e­
mail
or
a
call,
my
phone
number
is
area
code
360­
407­
7031.
And
my
e­
mail
address
is
3NIS461@
ECY.
WA.
COM,
and
I
will
be
here
to
get
you
the
e­
mail
or
web
site
address.
Thank
you
very
much.

UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER:
Yes,
I
am
the
last
of
the
afternoon.
I
will
be
brief.
As
pointed
out,

Oregon
has
a
very
rigid
central
procurement
system.
t
f
B
2
3
4
5
d
a
8
9
1
0
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
16
17
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
9
0
Itrs
difficult
to
break
into
and
itds
difficult
for
us
to
report
because
we
donlt
know
how
much
of
the
money
that
we
spend
with
one
of
our
big
two
or
three
vendors
eventually
makes
its
way
down
to
the
minority­
or
women­
owned
businesses.

What
sorts
of
opportunities
do
arise
for
minorities
of
women­
owned
businesses
tends
to
be
s
o
r
t
of
idiosyncratic.
We
have
an
orphan
site
program.
We
have
a
contaminated
piece
of
land,
and
when
it
becomes
a
high
enough
priority
that
it
really
needs
to
be
investigated
and
remediated
and
cleaned
up,
we,
first
of
a
l
l
,
have
to
go
through
and
see
if
there"
s
anybody
in
the
string
of
owners
and
lessees
and
operators
that
has
deep
enough
pockets
that
we
can
get
enough
money
other
than
for
that.

Then,
if
that
doesn't
happen,
then
we
look
for
some
state
money
to
pay
for
it.
And
usually
all
of
this
occurs
before
we
can
actually
get
around
to
the
important
thing
of
getting
the
nasty
stuff
out
of
the
ground.
So
opportunities
crop
up
from
time
to
time,

and
it`
s
useful
to
be
registered
with
our
central
state
office
of
minority
and
women­
owned
businesses.

It
will
do
no
harm
at
all
to
get
in
touch
directly
with
the
Oregon
Department
of
EnVirQnmental
Quality
and
let
our
contract
officer
or
somebody
know
e
1
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
91
of
your
capabilities.
It
will
mean
that,
you
know,

rather
than
just
seeing
a
notice
somewhere,
you
will
probably
get
a
hard
copy
of
an
RFP
to
respond
to.

One
overall
theme
I've
noticed
coming
out
of
the
last
three
days,
and
that
was
made
particularly
specific
by
Mr.
Pearson's
comments
earlier,
that
we
appear
to
be
having
an
entire
new
relationship
between
$&
e
areas
of
environmental
quality
and
economic
development.
I
started
this
­
­
I'm
surprised
to
find
out
how
many
here
did
work
in
economic
development,
and
when
I
did
that,
the
line
was
absolutely
rich
on
this
side
of
the
people,
paved
­
­
and
on
this
side
was
the
people
who
want
to
save
the
estuary
and
they
don't
talk.

And
now
we
do
­
­
brown
fields
is
an
economic
development
activity
and,
I
think,
the
activity
­
­
and
I
think
that
a
Pot
of
us,
there
is
a
lot
sf
outreach
to
the
disadvantaged
business
enterprises
comes
sometimes
purely
informally
over
economic
development
arts.
Sometimes
even
the
money
flows
in
Oregon,
the
drilling
water
SRF
money
flows
from
EPA
to
our
health
department
and
then
out
to
economic
development
who
have
more
familiarity
with
the
bonding
and
construction
of
things
of
that
nature.

The
finance
drones
and
the
Department
of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1%

19
20
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
92
Environmental
QualityB
I
think
we
all
come
from
economic
development.
Tom
Beacher
runs
the
state
SRF
programs
as
another
one,
so
that"!
that's
really
an
area
that
we
want
to
investigate.
1
know
that
the
Oregon
Association
of
Minority
Entrepreneurs,
DEQ
has
pathetically
little
contact
with
them,
but
we
can
always
go
through
our
economic
development
people
who
are
in
regularly
and
have
ongoing
contact,

So
no,
we
donPt
always
have
them
as
our
allies,
but
maybe
in
some
cases
our
State
Department
of
Economic
Development
aren't
j
u
s
t
there
to
support
the
greed
and
paving
over
wetlands
and
whatnot,
they
can
provide
some
useful
services
to
those
of
us
who
used
to
be
the
other
side,
but
now
are
partners.
Good
night.

DR.
RAMSEY:
All
right.
The
last
of
our
presenters
on
contracting
opportunities
will
give
us
an
overview
of
the
kind
of
purchases
made
in
the
national
buying
office
in
Cincinatti,
Ohio.

MR.
NORM
WHITE:
Good
afternoon,
ladies
and
gentlemen.
Many
of
you
I
have
spoken
to
at
the
individual
booths,
and
what
I'm
going
to
say
is
probably
going
to
be
redundant.
I
am
Norm
White.
I'm
from
the
Contracts
Division
in
Cincinatti,
Ohio,
one
of
the
three
national
buying
offices
we
have
in
the
EPA,

the
first
one
is
Washington,
DC.
L.
1
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
a
0
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
16
1
7
1
8
19
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
93
And
what
they
specialize
in
pretty
much
is
Superfund
clean­
up,
in
addition
to
also
the
training
needs
for
leads
for
the
agency,
also
the
ADP
procurements,
hardware,
software,
those
types
of
IT
work
that
would
be
on
a
national
buy
in
research,

Triangle
Park,
North
Carolina,
They
are
sort
of
a
backup
when
it
comes
to
the
land
work,
the
IT
work,
the
computer
work.

About
two
and
a
half
years
ago
we
reorganized
in
the
EPA
under
direct
procurement
and,
in
Cincinatti,
we
used
to
do
a1
of
the
research
and
development
contracts
agencywide.
But
due
to
a,
I
guess
maybe
a
consolidation,
we
took
the
research
and
development
work
and
laboratories,
and
they
developed
into
what
they
call
two
mega
labs,
and
those
mega
labs,
each
one
had
a
director.

It
so
happened
each
director
lived
in
North
Carolina,
so
they
wanted
to
contract
support
in
North
Carolina,
so
we
did
a
flip­
flop.
Instead
of
a
mission
research
and
development,
we
became
risk
reduction
in
Cincinatti,
and
now
the
research
and
development
labs
like
Oregon,
Las
Vegas,
Athens
Georgia,
Florida,
they
are
all
contracted
out
of
Cincinnati
­
­
I
mean
­
­
I'm
sorry
­
­
out
of
RTP
North
Carolina
e
a
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9
4
In
Cincinatti
where
Ifm
from
we
still
do
all
the
engineering
contracts
across
the
agency,
across
the
nation.
We
do
all
the
construction
for
the
labs,

and
we
do
the
services
related
to
some
of
the
labs
that
we
still
support,
like
in
Oklahoma,
we
are
doing
water
programs.
In
fact,
we
do
all
of
the
water
programs
for
the
Office
of
Water
apd
for
the
Environmental
Protection
Agency.
They
come
from
Cincinatti.

We,
we're
also
supporting
some
of
the
air
programs
in
Ann
Arbor,
programs,
the
emissions,

two­
cycle
four­
cycle
engines
up
there
working
with
the
automotive
industry.
We
are
doing
work
in
Edison,
New
Jersey,
where
they
have
oil
and
water
separation
type
contracts,
and
in
Cincinatti
we
have
several
labs
there
that
we`
re
doing.
Also
in
RTP
they
are
doing
some
radiation
type
contracts.
They
also
do
health
effects
in
WTP,

Each
one
of
the
national
buying
laboratories
has
a
sub
which
is
a
small
disadvantaged
business
organization
officer
like
myself.
I
am
from
Cincfnatti.
Again,
my
name
is
Norm
White.
Phone
number
is
513­
487­
2024.
We
have
Jerry
Dotson
that's
in
research,
Triangle
Park,
North
Carolina.
His
number
is
919­
541­
2249.
And
in
Washington
we
have
a
lady,
Trina
Porter.
She
recently
moved
from
Crystal
City
t
o
o
,
over
a
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
95
to
Washington.
I
don't
have
her
direct
number,
but
she
works
in
our
director's
office,
Jeanette
Brown,
so
you
can
get
her
through
there.

Also
you
can
find
us
on
the
EPA
OSDBU
web
page,
WWW.
EPA.
GOV/
OSDBU.
Once
you
get
into
that
screen,
you
can
find
a
map
that
will
indicate
all
the
regions
and
you
click
on
any
one
of
them
and
you
will
get
the
coordinator
for
that
particular
region,
the
phone
number
and
address
and
so
forth.
We
also
have
on
the
web
site,
our
forecast,
contract
forecast,
and
in
that
forecast
it
covers
the
regions,
as
well
as
the
three
national
buying
offices.

You
can
look
at
those
contracts,
most
of
them
are
renewable
contracts,
you
can
look
at
them.

You
can
see
who
the
incumbent
contractor
is.
You
can
J
see
when
it's
supposed
to
come
out
again
on
the
solicitation
and
how
we`
re
going
to
procure
it
through
$­
A
small
business
open
competition
and
what
have
you.

It's
there.

I
might
caution
YOU,
when
you
look
at
the
forecast,
sometimes
the
title
is
a
little
misleading.

Sometimes
if
you
not
familiar
with
the
jargon
on
the
VPA,
so
if
you
see
a
title
of
a
contract
and
you
think
you
might
be
interested
in
it,
what
I
would
ask
YOU
to
do
is,
or
suggest
that
do
you
is
maybe
go
through
the
1
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
10
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
16
17
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
9
6
prior
year
and
ask
for
that
scope
of
work
that
that
contract
entails,
that
way
you
will
have
a
better
understanding
of
what
the
contract
is
about,
the
disciplines
that's
required
and
the
number
of
hours
and
so
forth
that
we're
looking
for.

We
also
have
a
mentor
protege
program,

which
is
Jerry
Dotson
in
research.
Triangle
Park
is
pretty
much
running
that
program.
Of
course,
we
all
support
that,
but
most
of
the
agreements
are
going
out
to
RTP
for
approval.
What
that
program
entails
is
that
it's
a
five­
year
program
and
the
small
business
would
make
an
agreement
with
a
large
firm,
and
they
are
able
to
stay
in
that
program
for
five
years.

And
I
believe
we
have
waived
the
subcontracting
or
the
competition
rule
for
subcontracting
and
their
mentor
is
allowed
to
give
or
to
grant
a
sole
source
procurement
under
that
program
up
to
$
1
million
to
the
protege,
So
that.#
s
a
pretty
good
program
that
we
are
utilizing
now.
There
are
several
terms
that
have
several
proteges,
but
I
think
one
protege
can
only
have
one
mentor.

We
also
look
at
the
subcontract
program.

What
I
mean
by
that
is
it
that,
any
contract
that
comes
into
Cincinnati
or
any
one
of
the
national
buying
offices
in
that
program
or
­
­
I
mean,
if
a
contract
is
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9%

over
$
580,000,
there
is
going
to
be
subcontracting,

then
we
have
to
approve
the
plan
that
the
Barge
firm
puts
in.
They
have
to
have
a
plan
to
utilize
women
minorities
and
small
business
and
now
HUB
Zone,

We
monitor
that
program
and
if
the
I
contract
is
awarded,
then
the
reports
that
are
sent
in
to
us
indicate
the
accomplishments
of
those
prime
contractors,
and
we
keep
a
record
of
those
subcontracts.
While
we
can't
tell
them
who
to
subcontract
with,
we
can
see
that
they
accomplish
their
goals
that
they
have
put
forth
to
give
the
contract.

So
that
is
another
program
we
have,
and
I
work
pretty
religiously
with
that
in
Cincinatti.

We
also,
let's
see
what
else
we
might
have,
Okay,
I
have
seen
in
the
last
few
years,
there's
a
trend
for
our
agency
to
use
a
lot
of
the
GSA­
type
contracts,
and
it's
a
trend
going
that
way.
We
have
asked
all
of
our
8­
A
firms
to
contact
GSA
and
get
on
a
GSA
schedule
because
it's
easier
for
the
program
offices
to
go
that
route.
They
don't
have
to
award
the
contract,
they
don't
have
to
administer,
all
they
have
to
do
is
give
money
to
it
and
issue
a
deliver
order
and
the
contract
is
already
in
place.
So
that's
a
good
avenue
and
good
opportunity
for
many
of
the
8­
A
firms,

any
of
the
small
business
firms
to
get
a
GSA
contract.
We
have
the
small
purchase
program
which
that,
the
8­
A
program
there
as
well.
And
we
are
now
EPA.
GOV.
­
­
.
OAM
and
all
of
our
solicitations
are
out
The
other
thing,
and
maybe
the
last
thing
12
13
17
18
2
0
2
2
4
2
3
a
2
4
contracts
that
are
in
the
forecast
or
that
have
come
up
and
they
are
indicated
that
they
will
be
open
competition,
before
we
go
out
on
open
competition,
we
go
out
for
source
assault
because,
when
we
first
awarded
that
contract
maybe
three
or
four
years
ago,

maybe
we
didn't
have
a
small
business
available,
but
before
we
go
out
to
competition,
again
we
are
going
out
for
source
assault,
a
synopsis
for
source
assault,
what
I
'
m
looking
f
o
r
is
a
response
from
the
small
businesses,
8­
A,
women­
owned
and
that
that
may
have
an
interest
in
that
particular
procurement,
and
we
are
asking
for
you
to
respond
with
the
capability
statement
to
us.

When
I
get
that,
we
go
back
to
the
program
B
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
0
11
12
1
3
1
4
1
5
16
17
1%

1
9
20
2
1
22
2
3
2
4
25
9
9
office,
if
we
get
enough,
and
let
them
know
we
have
small
businesses
that
are
out
there
that
we
want
to
zone,
We
usually,
when
office,
I'm
asking
them
statement
from
the
stan
we
go
back
to
look
at
point
of
f
look
at
for
a
small
business
set­
aside
or
8
­
A
or
HUB
to
the
program
the
capability
rms
doing
at
least
56,
percent
of
that
job
with
their
own
force,
There's
a
clause
in
the
contract
that
says
they
must
do
50
percent
of
the
labor
with
their
own
force,
so
other
than
that
50
percent,
they
are
allowed
to
subcontract.

So
that's
basically
all
I
have
from
Cincinatti.
If
you
have
any
questions,
I
will
be
around
for
the
rest
of
today
and
tomorrow,
and
feel
free
to
give
me
a
call
at
any
time
and
IIll
try
to
answer
any
questions
that
you
may
have.
Thank
you.

MADAM
CHAIR:
Thank
you.
Next
we
have,

and
I
think
after
this
we
will
have
covered
everything
on
our
agenda,
the
next
person
we
have
to
speak,
and
I
prefer
we
do
this
and
let
him
go
through
his
presentation,
and
then
we
can
wrap
up,
if
that's
okay
with
you
all.
We
have
Mr.
Frank
Carpenter
with
us
who
is
the
contractor
from
Howard
University.

My
office
has
entered
into
a
contract
with
Howard.
It's
the
first
of
its
kind,
the
first
one
with
a
historically
Black
college
minority
institution.
c
i
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
IO
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
1
6
17
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
100
1
know
it
doesn't
make
a
whole
lot
of
sense
in
2000,

but
this
is
the
first
agency
contract
with
HBCU,
We
have
given
a
lot
of
grants,
but
never
entered
into
a
contract
rule
agreement.

Howard
University
has
a
small
business
development
center.
I
know
a
Bot
of
you
are
familiar
with
that,
but
what
we've
done
is
entered
into
an
agreement
with
Howard
that
they
will
come
help
us
staff
our
Outreach
Development
Center
and
bring
with
them
all
the
advantages
that
one
would
get
at
the
small
business
development
center,
information
on
the
score,

information
on
loan
packages,
information
on
the
women
business
programs
and
all
of
that.

And
then,
in
addition
to
that,
they
will
also
work
with
us
in
focusing
in
on
the
environment,

we
are
very
elated
and
very
pleased
with
what
we've
been
able
to
carve
out
into
terms
of
that
agreement.

And
with
that,
Howard
also
has
a
sub
center
with
Hispanics
and
they
are
also
working
with
a
couple
of
other
colleges
and
universities,
University
of
the
District
of
Columbia,
so
we
are
looking
to
see
this
expand
and
grow.
so
This
was
just
one
of
my
little
ideas
that
we
were
able
to
put
on
paper
and
then
bring
it
to
the
point
where
we
are
today.
We
did
try
to
seek
support
t
I,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
101
from
a
couple
of
the
other
schools,
but
many
of
them
in
the
area
did
not
have
the
same
kind
of
setup
that
Howard
did,
and
so
what
we're
trying
to
do
in
the
center,
we
have
computers
readily
available
for
anybody
that,
the
public
coming
in
o
f
f
the
street
wanting
to
find
out
bow
to
do
business,
they
have
access
to
the
internet
to
get
solicitations
and
other
information.

We
have
packages
that
we
put
together
on
doing
business
with
EPA,
information
on
the
various
programsd
et
cetera
e
And
SO
at
this
time,
and
I
didn#
t
mean
to
do
a
long
introduction,
Frank,
but
Frank
is
going
to
come
forward
and
share
just
some
of
the
things
that
we've
been
able
to
work
on
thus
far.
He
is
visiting
because
he
is
the
one
that
is
staffing
­
­
not
staffing,

but
will
manage,
aside
from
Howard,
to
work
the
outreach
center,
thank
you.

MR.
FRANK
CARPENTER:
Thank
you,
Jeanette.

And
I
wonder,
will
you
all,
would
do
me
a
favor,

because
I
haven't
sat
as
along
as
you
have
this
afternoon,
I
would
want
to
stand
for
a
few
seconds,

Why
don't
you
just
stand
up
and
rest
your
sacroiliac.

For
four
days
we
have
gathered
in
the
valley
of
the
Sandia
Mountains
to
try
to
communicate
with
one
another
about
the
vision
of
involving,
1
9
10
11
12
I3
17
18
4
l9
23
2
4
25
including
and
encouraging
disadvantaged
businesses
to
take
advantage
of
what
I
understand
this
year
is
an
expenditure
of
$
500
billion,
including
federal,
state,

county
and
local
level
cities.

My
role
this
afternoon,
at
least
as
it
is
explained
on
the
program,
is
to
describe
for
you
the
outreach
center
and
historically
Black
colleges
and
universities.
We
won't
have
time
for
me
to
give
full
treatment
to
that,
thank
God,
we
are
such
a
tired
audience,
but
I
intend
to
at
least
lay
a
philosophical
predicate
with
respect
to
all
of
that.
What's
the
motivating
factor
behind
this
initiative
that
Jeanette
Brown
has
created
and
now
finds
itself
in
the
form
of
a
contract
between
not
only
one
of
the
historically
Black
colleges,
but
one
of
the
greatest
of
historical
Black
colleges?
You
know
what
that
is.

I
want
to
start
with
establishing
that
predicate
with
a
quote
from
Langston
Hughes.
Everybody
familiar
with
Langston
Hughes?
And
I
ran
across
this
a
couple
of
weeks
ago
when
I
learned
that
I
would
be,

have
the
privilege,
and
I
do
consider
it
a
privilege,

to
speak
to
you,
and
I
will
tell
you
why
I,
before
I
get
to
that,
why
I
consider
it
a
proud
privilege.

I
have
witnessed
for
four
days
a
diverse
group
of
people
who
are
working
hard
at
making
the
law
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
103
of
the
land
work.
I
experienced
and
went
through
the
Croson
versus
Richmond
case
as
a
direct
minority
development
for
Montgomery
County.
That
was
a
tremendous
transition
in
the
way
we
think
about
these
things.
And
then
came
the
Adaran
case,
which
specifically
affected
how
the
federal
government
was
going
t
o
deal
with
this
social
and
economic
issue.

I
may
be
dating
myself,
but
I
can
go
back
to
the
days
of
Penny
Love
and
when
that
became
an
issue
with
respect
to
these
programs
at
that
time.
I
was
with
the
US
Department
of
Commerce
at
that
time,
and
with
the
20/
20
vision,
I
can
say
to
you
that
it
was
inevitable
that
we
would
come
to
such
phrases
as
the
compelling
government
interest,
strict
scrutiny,

availability,
as
a
way
of
at
least
attempting
and
reaching
some
form
equilibrium
among
all
the
contesting
forces
that
seek
to
do
business
with
the
government.

Pardon
me
if
I
r
m
blunt
and
frank.
If
you're
patient
with
me,
I
will
connect
this
to
the
contract
that
Howard
has
with
EPA.
I
had
the
privilege
1
of
traveling
to
Alaska
with
a
Perrin
Mitchell.
All
of
you
familiar
with
Perrin
Mitchell?
Thank
you.
At
that
time,
they
were
building
the
Alaska
oil
and
pipeline.

There
are
a
lot
of
Indian
tribes
in
Alaska.
You
visit
them
not
by
Supras
and
Volvos
and
S
U
V
s
,
you
visit
them
The
Indians
wouldn't
buy
it.
They
felt
DC,
with
all
of
these
fruits
in
his
basket
saying,
"
We
We
werenIt
too
successful
in
that
endeavor.
We
werenBt
too
successful
because
we
didn't
Now
here
we
find
ourselves,
in
a
sense,

I
L­,­.&­"­"­
~
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
0
11
1
2
1
3
14
1
5
16
17
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
22
2
3
24
2
5
105
of
what
I
learned.

I
have
learned
that
you
are
energetic
and
experienced
and
knowledgeable
about
how
to
move
from
one
set
of
rules
to
another
set
of
pending
rules,
with
no
real
promise
that
they
will
work.
And
that
movement,
if
you
sense
and
put
a
pin
in
it,
is
a
devolution
of
what
once
was.
When
you
said
minority
programs
back
in
1
9
7
2
and
in
the
years
of
Perrin
Mitchell,
you
meant
Black
people.
1974
you
meant
Hispanics.
And
then
you
moved
further
on
up
to
the
decade
and
you
got
Asians,
women,
and
the
whole
­
­

nothing
wrong
with
that.

The
struggle
was
on.
How
do
you
get
a
piece
or
bite
of
the
apple?

disconnect.
Have
you
noticed
that
one
of
the
words
she
uses
more
often
than
others
is
the
word
disconnect.
I
want
to
talk
to
you
about
that
disconnect
notion
that
is
well­
founded
by
her
experience
in
this
program.

On
the
one
hand
you
got
all
of
this
money
and
you
get
all
of
these
goals,
YOU
get
all
of
this
machinery
that
I've
heard,
for
which
I
deserve
my
graduate
degree
in,

and
yet
we
have
a
disconnect.
And
Jeanette
picked
up
a
Why
is
that?
Why
are
Blacks
getting
more
of
the
procurements?
Why
are
Blacks
always
basically
subcontractors
and
not
prime
contractors?
Same
thing
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
1
0
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
1
6
1
7
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
younger
,

a
fool.

partial
favorite
106
happened
with
the
Hispanics,
women,
Asians,
Indians,

why
is
that?
I
have
a
partial
answer.
I
have
learned
to
say
sfpartial
answer,
nf
as
I
get
older.
When
you're
you
can
give
an
answer
to
everything.
That's
As
you
get
older
you
learn
to
say,
have
a
nswer."
It
is
not
necessarily
one
that
is
a
description
that
many
minorities
would
even
entertain
or
accept.

When
you
consider
the
growth
period
of
Blacks
in
this
country,
Hispanics,
you
cannot
deny
that
the
wherewithal,
the
resources,
the
learning
that
takes
place
by
osmosis
just
by
being
among
entrepreneurs
and
seasoned
capitalists,
the
action
of
all
of
that
puts
us
in
the
year
2
0
0
0
with
very
ambitious,
talented
folks
who
lack
certain
skills
and
perceptions.

Listening
to
Langston
Huges
"
Sighted
through
the
telescope
of
dreams
looms
largely,
so
much
larger,
so
it
seems,
than
truth
can
be,
but
turn
the
telescope
around,
look
through
the
large
ray
and
wonder
why
what
was
so
large
becomes
so
small
again."
Did
you
ever
do
that,
pick
a
telescope
up
and
look
at
it?
One
perspective,
it
seemed
so
large,
all
of
this
construction
and
architecture;
flip
it
around
and
it's
SO
distant,
so
small.

What's
Langston
saying
to
us?
If
he
were
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
BO
11
12
13
14
15
16
1
7
18
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
107
living
today,
the
sound
of
evolution
that
brought
us
to
this
point
in
our
endeavors
with
respect
to
including
minorities
from
Penny
Love
to
Croson
to
Adaran
to
who
knows
whatrs
next,
the
telescope
has
been
flipped.

What
was
once
a
promise
of
great
rewards,
the
big
picture
that
we
were
going
to
be
involved
and
get
these
contracts
and
do
a
good
service,
narrows,
narrows.

What
was
the
initial
reaction
to
this
on
t
h
e
part
of
Blacks
and
Hispanics
and
Asians
and
women?

They
said
!'
Woe
is
me,
the
affirmative
action
is
gone."

I
dispute
that
resolve
or
that
attitude.
Affirmative
action
is
alive
and
well,
and
I'll
tell
you
where
itBs
alive
and
well
and
where
it
gives
credence
and
substance.
And,
in
essence,
for
this
initiative
Jeanette
Brown
has
initiated,
we
cannot
deny
that
Black
people
have
it
in
their
resource
some
of
the
brightest,

talented
people
in
this
country.

We
cannot
deny
that
existing
among
Indian
tribes
are
bold
people
with
integrity
and
talent
and
women,
Asians.
What
becomes
imperative,
however,
is
that
we
have
to
be
able
to
corral
that
talent
in
a
way
where
some
day,
hopefully
we
won't
have
to
talk
about
availability.
We
won't
have
to
talk
about
subcontracting.
We
won't
have
to
talk
about
all
of
this
that
we
have
talked
about
this
week.
The
e
t
P­
1
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
a
9
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
108
machinery
is
in
place.

We
can
put
in
place
a
strong
force
within
our
communities,
in
our
various
constituencies,
a
moral
imperative,
Langston
speaks
of
the
telescope
of
dreams.
I
think
all
of
you
are
dream
keepers.
1
,
m
one.
Irm
a
dream
keeper.
I
think
an
injustice
is
not
being
done
to
the
whole
United
States
when
we
hold
back,
when
we
withhold
­
­
when
we
put
stress
and
strain
and
all
kinds
of
barriers
in
the
way
of
talent
blossoming
and,
by
doing
that,
affecting
the
whole
millions
of
us
who
call
ourselves
Americans.

What
I
want
to
do
in
this
meagerly
funded
contract
­
­

MADAM
CHAIR:
Here
we
go.

MR.
FRANK
CARPENTER:
­
­
is
to
get
out
there
in
the
community
and
convince
the
leaders
of
the
community,
first,
that
that's
the
strategic
and
tactical
way
we
have
to
go,
convince
the
leaders
among
those
leaders
who
are
trusted
by
our
target
people,
by
other
people,
that
they
have
a
responsibility
to
their
people,
whether
they
be
Indians,
women,
Asian,
Blacks,

to
stress
and
enable
them
to
compete.

I
do
not
perceive
that
the
United
States
is
going
to
disrobe
itself
of
its
capitalistic
system
any
time
soon.
I
wouldn't
want
it
to.
I
want
to
c
I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
109
preserve
to
an
extent
that
one
day
we
wondt
have
to
just
brag
about
the
Robert
Johnsons
who
just
bought
a
piece
of
US
Air,
khat
so­
called
Ifm
the
first
Negro
who
did
this
business.
There
will
be
so
many
doing
business,
it
won't
be
such
a
novel,
such
a
phenomenon.

Do
you
follow
me?

Once
we
convince
the
leaders,
talk
about
the
free
leaders,
the
natural
leaders,
not
the
ones
who
always
attend
the
Black
caucus
every
year
or
Hispanic
caucus
every
year,
but
the
leaders
on
the
street
corner,
in
the
neighborhoods,
in
the
barrios,
on
the
Indian
reservations,
convince
them
that
they
have
a
responsibility
to
understand
the
vagaries
associated
with
availability
and
the
concomitant
response
of
I
can't
find
any.

And
how
we
plan
to
do
that
is
very
simple;

Howard
has
resources.
I
have
been
with
Howard
since
March.
Came
on
board
here
April
3.
When
I
say
April
3
,
thatrs
when
I
first
started
getting
paid.
I
was
volunteering
before
that,
And
I'm
impressed
with
the
tremendous
talent
not
just
merely
expressed
in
the
possession
of
a
Ph.
D.,
but
a
group
of
academics
who
are
dream
keepers,
as
well
that
can
provide
the
mental
force
and
energy
to
strengthening
and
enable
people
in
our
community.
1
2
3
4
5
6
a
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2
0
21
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
110
We
are
to,
if
I
understand
Jeanette
Brown's
vision,
once
we
establish
the
model,
and
the
model
is
being
molded
right
now,
we
would
like
to
take
it
to
Hampton.
We
would
like
to
take
it
to
Morgan.
We
would
Pike
to
take
it
to
Spelman.
We
would
like
to
take
it
to
other
minority
institutions
that
are
part
and
parcel
of
this
whole
A­
B­
C
cause
and
Part
26
and
say,
"
Here
is
an
instrument
that
you
can
use,
not
to
stop
the
diminution
of
the
governmental
approach,
to
try
and
balance
conflicting
forces
between
Blacks
and
Whites
and
prime
contractors
and
subcontractors."
That
would
be
a
wrong
change.
That
would
be
a
waste
of
time.

But
to
mobilize
these
energies
of
those
universities
in
an
all­
encompassing
way
where
they
say,

IIYa'll
come
back,
White,
Black,
blue,
women,"
whatever,

I
have
the
talent.
I
have
the
brains,
and
I
have
resources,"
and
we
can
resolve
questions
of
certification.
We
can
­
­
these
exercises
where
we
pay
GS­
13s,
14s
and
15s
to
go
through
these
sheets
of
papers
to
determine
whether
or
not
in
fact
this
is
allegedly
a
certified
person,
wasteful,
costly,
wrong.

But
that's
the
machinery
we
have
to
deal
with
now.

Ten
years
maybe
frdm
now,
maybe,
maybe
next
year
in
some
time,
maybe
in
Omaha,
maybe
in
Kansas
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
1
2
1
3
1
4
1
5
1
6
1
7
1
8
1
9
2
0
2
1
2
2
2
3
2
4
2
5
111
City,
we'll
see
something
from
time
to
time
that
makes
our
hearts
glad
and
warm.
Elkhorn
was
an
experiment
by
a
historically
Black
college
university.
I
learned
this
recently.
There
was
a
time
just
before
the
Civil
War,
a
small
college
was
there,
but
you
know
how
it
got
started,
a
few
Black
women
who
read
the
winds
of
change
said,
"
Hey,
we
got
to
get
ready,
1s
and
they
took
on
themselves
a
few
Black
girls.
They
began
to
coach
them,
and
nurture
them
and
put
their
arms
around
them
in
1865.
Two
years
after
the
Civil
War,
Howard
was
founded,
1867,
still
exists.
There's
­
­
there
is
Tennessee
State.
Ladies
and
gentlemen,
there
are
105
recognized
historical
Black
colleges
and
universities
that
houses
a
treasure
of
talent,
genius,
thatfs
ready
to
go
to
work.

Let
me
leave
you
with
this
one
note,
and
I'll
quit.
I
can
talk
on
this
for
another
two
hours,

but
I
won't.
Harriette
Tupping
­
­
do
you
know
who
she
is,
or
was?
­
­
was
taking
a
group
of
slaves
on
a
train
from
Buffalo
to
Canada
seeking
their
freedom.

As
the
train
was
chugging
along,
she
noticed
one
of
the
Black
males
hiding
underneath
the
seat
still
scared
to
death,
thought
they
were
going
to
stop
the
train
and
he
would
go
back
to
the
plantation,

back
to
the
plantation.
But
Harriette
Tupping
comes
up
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112
to
him
and
says,
IsFoo1,
get
up
from
there.
Look
out
your
window.
On
your
way
to
freedom,
you
don't
want
to
miss
Niagra
Falls
Is
Did
you
catch
what
she
is
suggesting
to
him?
I`
m
not
going
to
call
us
fools,
but
I
am
go5ng
to
say,
paraphrase
Harriette
Tupping
this
way:
We
donBt
need
to
be
afraid.
We
can
get
up
from
under
some
of
our
slouchy
attitudes
or
misplaced
values
with
respect
to
this
campaign
and,
on
our
way
to
economic
freedom,

we
can
see
some
beautiful
things
along
the
way.
Thank
you.

MADAM
CHAIR:
My,
myI
my,
what
a
fitting
ending.
Frank
is
full
of
surprises.
We
do
thank
you
for
those
very
thoughtful
words.
It
does
give
us
an
opportunity
to
reflect
on
the
purpose
and
why
we
were
called
here
this
week
and
what
we
still
have
to
do
when
we
go
back
to
our
respective
places.
I
will
be
frank
with
you,
we
should
not
be
afraid.
We
ought
not
be
afraid.
I
believe,
as
I
think
my
colleagues
here
in
this
room,
`
that
there
is
ample
opportunity
and
enough
for
all
of
us
to
benefit.

And
so
we
take
those
words
that
you
left
us
with,
and
it
is
any
hope
that
we
will
reflect
on
those
in
the
days
and
months
and
the
years
to
come,
and
we
do
what
we
have
been
called
to
do
in
trying
to
bring
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113
about
a
fair
share,
a
fair
assessment
for
those
who
would
otherwise
be
left
out.
And
thatrs
all
of
the
­
­

and
I
don't
like
being
called
minority,
I'm
not
a
minority,
but
we'll
get
to
that
another
time.
You
get
me
started
then
­
­

MR.
TOMMIE
SMITH:
You
got
a
witness.

MADAM
CHAIR:
1
think
it
is
fitting
that
wedve
gone
through
the
sessions.
Wefve
covered
everything
on
the
agenda,
I
still
want
to
make
sure
that
we
give
the
contractors
some
ample
time
in
the
trade
fair.
I
would
encourage
you
to
do
that.
I
solicit
input
from
you
all
in
terms
of
what
you
think
we
need
to
do
the
next
time
and
where
you
would
like
to
go
for
the
next
conference
and
when
you
would
like
that
to
be.

If
you
have
not
completed
the
evaluation
forms,
just
in
case
some
of
you
all
were
not
here
when
we
went
through
that
this
morning,
please,
please,

please,
by
all
means
do
that
and
get
your
comments
in
to
us.
1
thank
you
once.
I
thank
you
twice.
I
thank
you
three
times
for
corning,
participating
and
making
this
what
I
think
has
been
a
success.
I
too
have
learned
something
here.
Each
time
I
come
I
learn
something
a
little
bit
different,
and
I
want
you
to
know
that
we
value,
we
really
do,
your
input.
And
I
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114
can't
say
that
or
stress
that
enough.

And
as
we
are
coming
to
the
dawn
of
a
new
guideline,
a
new
rule
for
us,
I
need
your
help.
I
can't
do
this
by
myself,
9
recognize
that.
You
all
are
in
the
trenches
and
you
are
the
ones
that,
you
are
working
with
this
stuff
on
a
day­
to­
day
basis,
so
you
know
what
makes
sense
and
what
doesn't.
So
we
do
ask
you
to
please
comment
and
get
your
comments
in
and
pass
the
information
on.

While
we
had
some
­
­
a
nice
number
here,

there
are
a
lot
of
other
people
that
need
to
know
about
this.
So
as
you
go
back
to
your
jobs
and
to
your
businesses,
again,
if
you
belong
to
any
trade
associations,
any
other
groups,
please
pass
this
information
on
to
them
as
well
as
your
constituents.

Again,
thank
you
for
coming,
and
I
think
this
will
wrap
up
the
conference
for
this
year.
Is
there
anything
else
in
terms
of
housekeeping
that
I
need
to
take
care
of?
Dr.
Ramsey?
If
you
did
not
get
the
synopsis
of
the
comments
that
were
given
by
Mark,
yesterday,
I
think
there
are
still
some
more
out
front
in
the
brown
box.
Make
sure
you
get
that.

Frank,
this
was
just
the
most
fitting
­
­

I'm
almost
at
a
loss
for
words,
and
that
doesn't
happen
too
often
for
me,
but
I
do
thank
you
for
that.
Thank
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115
you
for
coming,
and
I
look
forward
to
hearing
from
you
and
hopefully
seeing
all
of
you
real
soon.
Thank
you.

(
Concluded
at
3:
34
p.
m.)
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116
STATE
OF
NEW
MEXICO
1
s
s
COUNTY
OF
BERNALILLQ
1
I,
IRENE
DELGADO,
New
Mexico
CCR
253,
DO
HEREBY
CERTIFY
that
I
did
report
in
stenographic
shorthand
the
foregoing
proceeding
as
set
forth
herein;
that
the
foregoing
pages
are
a
true
and
correct
transcript
of
my
stenographic
notes
and
were
reduced
to
typewritten
transcript
through
Computer­
Aided
Transcription.

I
FURTHER
CERTIFY
that
I
am
neither
employed
by
nor
related
to
any
of
the
parties
or
attorneys
in
this
case,
and
that
I
have
no
interest
in
the
final
disposition
of
this
case
in
any
court;
that
on
the
date
I
reported
these
proceedings,
I
was
a
New
Mexico
Certified
Court
Reporter.

License
~
xpires:
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31­
00