Document ID: EPA-HQ-OA-2002-0001-0095
Agency: epa
Document Type: Supporting & Related Material
Title: 
Posted Date: 2005-06-28T04:00Z

0002
1
2
APPEARANCES:
3
4
KIMBERLY
PATRICK,
Attorney
Advisor
5
US
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION
AGENCY
6
Office
of
Small
and
Disadvantaged
Business
7
Utilization
8
1200
Pennsylvania
Ave.,
N.
W.
(
1230A)
9
Washington,
D.
C.
20460
10
Appearing
on
behalf
of
EPA
11
12
OTTO
SALAMON,
Small
Disadvantaged
Business
13
Utilization
Officer
14
US
ENVIRONMENTAL
PROTECTION
AGENCY
15
Office
of
Policy
and
Management
16
290
Broadway
17
New
York,
New
York
10007­
1866
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0003
1
2
SUMMARY
OF
MAJOR
ELEMENTS
OF
3
THE
PROPOSED
EPA
DBE
RULE
AND
PREAMBLE
4
NOVEMBER
18,
2003
5
MS.
PATRICK:
All
right.
The
6
primary
change
for
the
program,
of
course,
is
7
going
to
be
the
name
of
it.
We're
currently
8
the
MBE/
WBE
program.
We're
going
to
change
9
our
name
to
the
DBE
program,
which
is
the
10
Disadvantaged
Business
Enterprises
Program.
11
And
the
reason
for
the
name
change
is
quite
12
simple.
If
you
look
at
DOT,
their
program
13
is
a
DBE
program,
and,
so,
we
wanted
to
try
14
and
get
some,
you
know,
uniformity
across
the
15
government
agencies
so
people
will
hear
one
16
name
and
know
what
the
program
is,
regardless
17
of
what
agency
you're
working
with.
18
We
went
with
the
DBE,
more
19
encompasses
woman­
owned
business,
20
minority­
owned
businesses
into
just
one
21
disadvantaged
business
enterprises.
That's
22
the
name
we're
going
to
go
to
the
with.
23
The
second
major
change,
the
history
24
of
and
how
we
sort
of
got
to
where
we
are
25
is
the
certification
process
I
mentioned
0004
1
2
before
that
we
currently
allow
businesses
to
3
self­
certify,
meaning
you
are
whoever
you
say
4
you
are.
If
you
say
you're
Big
Bird,
we
5
believe
you.
That
is
going
to
be
a
major
6
major
change.
7
We're
going
to
require
that
entities
8
actually
fill
out
forms
and
attest
legally
to
9
who
they
are
or
what
their
status
is
in
10
terms
of
being
socially
and
economically
11
disadvantaged.
EPA
is
really
not
in
the
12
certification
business,
nor
do
we
want
to
be.
13
So,
to
that
end
we're
trying
to
make
this
as
14
easy
as
possible
for
business
owners
to
use
15
certifications
that
they
already
have,
so
16
that
they
don't
go
through
another
process
to
17
get
certified
by
EPA.
18
If
someone
has
a
certification
from
19
SBA,
from
DOT,
from
a
state,
a
locality,
20
municipality,
even
if
there's
an
instance
21
where
an
Indian
tribe
has
a
certification
22
process
in
place,
we
will
accept
that
23
certification,
as
long
as
the
criteria
for
24
receiving
that
certification
is
equal
to
the
25
federal
government
standard.
And
in
the
case
0005
1
2
of
DOT,
we
will
only
accept
DOT
3
certifications
as
long
as
the
US
citizenship
4
requirement
that
we
have
is
met.
5
DOT
has
a
different
citizenship
6
requirement
than
ours.
Ours
is
in
line
with
7
SBA,
which
requires
US
citizenship.
That's
a
8
major
major
change,
and
it's
something
that
9
we're
thinking
is
going
to
be
quite
10
interesting
when
we
start
to
get
into
actual
11
applications
that
may
come
in.
12
We
know
at
this
point
that
there
are
13
five
categories
of
entities
that
we
know
that
14
we
would
have
to
be
the
primary
certifier
15
for
because
the
other
agencies
just
don't
16
certify
in
that
category.
17
They
are
women
owned
businesses.
18
SBA
currently
does
not
certify
women­
owned
19
businesses
and
neither
does
DOT.
And
we
20
don't
know
of
any
localities
that
do.
I
21
know
a
couple
of
states
that
do.
And
in
22
that
instance,
we
will
accept
that
23
certification,
as
long
as
they
meet
the
24
federal
standard.
25
We're
going
to
have
to
certify
0006
1
2
Disabled
American
owned
businesses
because
3
absolutely
no
once
else
certifies
them.
4
Private
and
voluntary
organizations
controlled
5
by
individuals
who
are
socially
and
6
economically
disadvantaged.
Entities
which
7
are
certified
under
criteria
which
are
8
inconsistent
with
EPA
DBE
program
criteria
9
and
an
entity
claiming
that
it
is
owned
or
10
controlled
by
socially
and
economically
11
disadvantaged
individuals
under
the
EPA
8
12
percent
statute.
That's
the
major
13
distinction.
14
I
don't
know
how
it
happened.
I
15
wasn't
here
back
when
the
wise
ones
were
16
writing
the
statute.
But
there's
a
huge
17
difference
between
the
Clean
Air
Act
and
the
18
Clean
Water
Act
statute
in
terms
of
our
19
program.
Under
the
8
percent
statute
in
20
the,
I
believe
that's
the
Clean
Air
one,
21
under
the
8
percent
statute,
an
entity
has
22
to
be
owned
or
controlled
by
a
socially
and
23
economically
disadvantaged
individual.
Under
24
the
10
percent
statute,
an
entity
must
be
25
owned
and
controlled.
That's
a
huge
legal
0007
1
2
difference
for
us.
But
since
even
with
this
3
reg,
we
can't
go
back
and
change
the
4
statute.
We
have
to
find
a
way
to
accept
5
both
into
our
program.
6
Currently
SBA
requires
an
entity
be
7
owned
and
controlled
and
so
we
had
to
make
8
an
opportunity
to
receive
entities
or
9
businesses
that
are
owned
or
controlled.
So
10
that's
why
that
distinction
exists.
11
Another
part
of
the
certification
12
criteria
is
that
individuals
with
a
personal
13
net
worth
of
750K
or
higher
will
be
excluded
14
from
eligibility.
When
we
look
at
net
15
worth,
we
exclude
the
personal
interest
in
16
the
business
and
we
also
exclude
your
17
personal
residence.
So
those
two
things
are
18
not
calculated
in
the
personal
net
worth
19
numbers.
Everything
else
is.
So,
if
your
20
net
worth
is
under
$
750,000,
you
are
21
eligible.
If
it's
over
that,
you're
not.
22
The
good
faith
efforts.
Currently
23
in
Part
31
under
Part
30
they're
called
two
24
different
things
but
they're
substant
­­
25
they're
substantively
the
same
thing.
0008
1
2
In
Part
31
it's
called
the
six
3
affirmative
steps.
And
Part
30,
it's
called
4
the
six
positive
efforts.
Well,
we're
going
5
to
do
something
that
makes
some
sense.
6
We're
going
to
merge
them,
put
them
in
one
7
section
and
call
them
one
thing.
They're
8
necessarily
six
good
faith
efforts.
The
9
substance
of
them
have
not
changed
at
all.
10
They're
still
the
same
6
steps.
11
Now
the
purpose
of
those
6
steps
is
12
to
­­
let
me
go
back.
In
every
grant
13
agreement,
there's
terms
and
conditions
­­
14
well,
within
your
agreement,
there's
terms
15
and
conditions
regarding
our
program.
In
16
that
term
and
condition
it
lists
the
6
17
affirmative
steps
that
the
recipient
has
to
18
go
through
in
terms
of
looking
for
a
prime
19
contractor
when
they
decide
to
spend
the
20
money
in
those
four
categories
I
talked
about
21
before.
22
Those
efforts
are
designed
to
make
23
sure
that
minority
and
women
owned
businesses
24
are
included
in
the
process.
Those
six
25
efforts
just
require
the
recipient
to
go
out
0009
1
2
and
when
you're
doing
your
competitive
3
process
or
your
bid
or
you're
looking
who
4
you're
going
to
get
your
paper
from,
it
just
5
makes
sure
that
you
solicit
minority
and
6
women
owned
businesses.
These
requirements
7
do
not
say
you
have
to
go
with
the
women
8
and
minority
owned
business.
It's
just
9
saying
you
have
to
include
them
in
your
10
process
of
looking.
11
They
are,
those
6
efforts
include
12
things
like
where
you're
having
broader
13
solicitations,
make
sure
you
advertise
the
14
fact
that
you're
doing
this
procurement,
15
those
types
of
things.
And
that
is,
require
16
that
you
follow
those
six
affirmative
steps,
17
but
is
not
required
that
you
go
with
a
18
minority
and
women
owned
business.
You
still
19
have
to
make
a
business
decision
that's
best
20
for
you.
21
So,
if
we're
saying
the
22
minority/
women
owned
business,
the
cost
is
23
three
times
of
that
of
a
larger
business,
24
we're
not
saying,
go
with
the
minority/
women
25
owned
business
just
because
you
think
we
may
0010
1
2
be
saying
you
have
to
do
that.
Make
the
3
business
decision
that's
best
for
you.
Just
4
in
your
process
make
sure
you're
inclusive.
5
That's
all
we're
saying.
6
Let's
see.
Also,
within
a
rule
we
7
have
a
few
new
contract
administration
8
provisions.
These
provisions
are
procedurally
9
designed
to
make
sure
that
minority
and
women
10
owned
business
subcontractors
are
treated
11
fairly
by
the
primes.
12
We
have
heard
so
many
times
and
so
13
many
horror
stories
about
the
subcontractor
14
or
the
minority
owned
business
not
being
paid
15
on
time
or
about
them
being
fired
or
­­
16
fired
from
the
contract
as
soon
as
it's
17
awarded.
So,
they
use
them
to
get
the
18
contract
and
say,
oh,
we've
had,
we're
19
working
with
these
minority
owned
business
20
subcontractors.
And
as
soon
as
they
get
the
21
award
and
they
let
them
go.
So
the
22
provisions
are
sort
of
designed
to
stop
that
23
from
happening.
24
One,
recipient
must
be
notified
in
25
writing
by
its
prime
contractor
prior
to
any
0011
1
2
termination
of
a
DBE
subcontractor.
So,
as
3
the
recipient
of
the
federal
moneys,
if
your
4
prime
contractor
decides
that
they're
going
5
to
terminate
one
of
their
DBE
subcontractors,
6
they
have
to
let
you
know
before
that
7
termination
takes
place.
Number
one,
when
a
8
DBE
subcontractors
fails
to
meet
its
work
9
under
the
subcontract
for
any
reason,
the
10
recipient
must
require
the
prime
to
make
good
11
faith
efforts
in
hiring
another
subcontractor.
12
Those
six
good
faith
efforts
that
I
13
talked
about
before
trickle
down
to
the
prime
14
contractor.
That
means
when
the
prime
15
contractor
goes
out
to
find
a
subcontractor,
16
he
has
to
follow
those
same
6
good
faith
17
efforts
that
you,
the
recipient,
have
to
18
follow
in
finding
that
prime.
And
this
19
particular
provision
is
saying
that
in
the
20
event
that
a
subcontractor
is
terminated,
21
when
that
prime
goes
to
find
out,
goes
to
22
find
another
subcontractor,
he
has
to
go
23
through
those
6
good
faith
efforts
yet
again
24
in
an
effort
to
make
sure
that
the
minority
25
and
women­
owned
businesses
are
included
in
0012
1
2
the
process.
3
Number
three,
a
recipient
must
4
require
its
prime
contractor
to
make
good
5
faith
efforts
even
if
the
fair
share
6
objectives
are
met.
7
Now
we
haven't
got
to
the
point
8
where
we
talked
about
the
fair
share
9
objectives
yet.
Are
many
of
you
familiar
10
with
the
goals
that
are
in
your
grant
11
agreement?
Anybody?
No?
12
MR.
SALAMON:
They
don't
have
goals.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
another
thing
14
that's
coming.
I'm
ahead
of
myself.
We're
15
going
to
come
back
to
this
one
after
I
talk
16
about
the
fair
share
objectives
and
the
new
17
requirements
regarding
that.
18
Number
four,
a
recipient
must
require
19
its
prime
contractor
to
its
subcontractors
20
for
satisfactory
performance
within
a
specific
21
number
of
days
from
the
prime
contractor's
22
receipt
of
payment
from
the
recipient.
23
And,
finally,
there
are
a
few
new
24
forms
that
the
recipient
will
require
the,
25
excuse
me,
where
most
cases
will
require
the
0013
1
2
prime
to
fill
out
to
prevent
bait
and
switch
3
tactics
that
we've
seen.
That's
some
of
the
4
things
that
we
talked
about.
5
Now,
submission
of
fair
share
goals.
6
That's
the
part,
that's
what
I
alluded
to
7
before.
Right
now
we
did
not
require
any
8
that
negotiate
goals
with
the
agency
for
the
9
use
of
minority
and
women
owned
businesses.
10
This
is
a
brand
new
provision.
We've
11
decided
to
make
this
provision
applicable
12
across
the
board
to
all
recipients,
to
the
13
states,
to
the
localities,
municipalities.
14
To
state
agencies
who
sometimes
negotiate
15
their
own
goals,
this
is
a
brand
new
16
provision.
17
The
way
the
goals
operate,
they
are
18
not
quotas.
I
have
to
make
that
very
clear.
19
Not
quotas.
They
are
goals.
It's
the
20
number
that
we
like
for
you
to
attain.
And
21
the
way
it
works
is
the
fair
share
goals
are
22
based
on
the
availability
of
businesses
23
within
your
regular
geographic
area,
okay.
24
So,
for
example,
the
fair
share
goal
25
of
minority,
women­
owned
businesses
in
0014
1
2
Illinois
may
be
50
percent
but
the
goal
in
3
Vermont
is
probably
going
to
be
about
2
4
percent
or
1
percent
just
because
of
the
5
availability
of
minority­
owned
businesses
in
6
that
geographic
area
to
do
the
work.
And
so
7
the
­­
that's
what
the
goals
are
based
on.
8
And
the
way
they
would
operate
is,
9
it
will
be
based
on
where
you
do
your
normal
10
buying
practices.
So,
normally
where
you
buy
11
is
within,
let's
say,
a
50
mile
radius
from
12
where
you
are,
when
we
sit
down
and
13
negotiate
goals,
it's
going
to
be
based
on
14
the
availability
analysis
or
disparity
study
15
that
will
show
what's
available
in
your
16
regular
geographic
area.
And
then
a
number
17
is
worked
out.
There's
actually
formula
and
18
everything
in
for
the
rule.
19
We
have
two
numbers.
We
have
one
20
for
New
York
State
and
then
we
have
another,
21
you
know,
or
for
upstate.
And
it's
quite
22
different.
In
New
York,
it's
much
higher
23
than
the
one
upstate.
24
MS.
LaFRANCE:
Where
does
upstate
25
start?
0015
1
2
MR.
SALAMON:
Outside
of
New
York
3
City.
It's
about
25
miles
out
of
New
York
4
City.
5
MR.
JOCK:
Ken
Jock,
Saint
Regis
6
Mohawk
Tribe.
Is
this
fair
share
goal,
you
7
just
need
to
negotiate
one
goal
that
would
8
apply
to
all
of
the
different
grants
that
9
you
receive?
10
MS.
PATRICK:
It
really
depends.
11
Now,
if
what
you're
purchasing
under
all
the
12
grants
you
receive
are
similar
type
of
13
products,
one
goal
could
work
for
you.
But
14
let's
say
you
have
a
grant
where
you
happen
15
to
be
purchasing
highly
specialized
technical
16
consulting,
that
goal
may
be
different
from
17
the
goal
you
use
to
buy
your
office
18
supplies.
Because
we
realize
that
the
number
19
of
minority/
women­
owned
businesses
in
that
20
line
of
business
may
be
much
smaller.
21
So
the,
let's
say
the
14
percent
22
goal
you
have
for
office
supplies
wouldn't
be
23
fair
to
apply
that
under
another
grant
where
24
you
may
be
doing
something
totally
different
25
and
the
universe
of
available
businesses
may
0016
1
2
be
smaller;
but
you
have
that
option,
if
you
3
feel
that,
you
know,
applying
that
same
goal
4
across
the
board
could
work,
then
that's
5
great.
If
you
feel
you
want
to
do
something
6
different,
you
always
have
the
option
to
go
7
in
and
talk
to
our
coordinators
who
will
be
8
negotiating
the
goals
to
determine
what's
9
really
best
and
what's
fair
and
equitable
for
10
your
situation.
So
there's
some
flexibility
11
there
in
terms
of
negotiating
the
goals
12
process.
13
We
understand
that
this
is
a
totally
14
new
process,
totally
new
process
for
you
all.
15
So
what
we're
doing
is
we
have
a
provision
16
where
if
you
have
a
situation
where
the
17
state
has
negotiated
a
goal,
we
will
allow
18
you
to
use
the
state
goal,
if
you
feel
that
19
it
works
for
where
you
are
in
your
20
geographic
area.
You
have
the
option
to
21
adopt
the
goal
that's
been
negotiated
by
the
22
state.
23
You
also
have
the
option
of
adopting
24
a
goal,
let's
say
­­
let's
say
a
tribe
near
25
you
has
already
negotiated,
they've
gone
0017
1
2
through
the
process,
they
have
a
goal.
If
3
your
buying
practices
are
the
same
and
your
4
general
geographic
area
are
the
same,
you
5
have
the
option
of
adopting
a
goal
that
6
they've
already
negotiated.
It's
just
an
7
option.
If
each
of
you
want
to
come
in
and
8
negotiate
your
own
goals,
that's
great.
9
We'll
also
do
that,
too.
10
We
want
just
to
make
it
as
easy
as
11
possible
because
the
cost
of
doing
disparity
12
studies
is
very
high.
Availability
analyses
13
are
a
lot
of
cheaper
but
still
we
realize
14
it's
an
expense.
Some
of
the
ways
an
15
availability
analysis
can
be
done
cheaply
is
16
using
the
colleges
and
university
that
you
17
have
around.
It's
an
outstanding
project
for
18
a
business
student
or
graduate
student,
to
do
19
an
availability
analysis
for
your
area.
20
They're
also
based
on
census
data
which
is
21
available
to
everyone.
And
so
those
are
22
some
of
the
types
of
ways
to
sort
of
23
minimize
the
potential
expense
for
it.
24
MS.
COOK:
My
name
is
Denean
Cook.
25
I'm
also
in
the
Saint
Regis
Mohawk
tribe.
0018
1
2
We
currently
have
on
our
applications
the
DBE
3
part
of
the
application
and
we
use
8
percent
4
and
I
don't
know
where
that
figure
came
5
from,
but
is
there
a
different
figures,
Otto,
6
for
supplies
and
for
­­
7
MR.
SALAMON:
No,
there
isn't
and
it
8
shouldn't
be
in
there.
The
8
percent?
9
MS.
COOK:
(
Nodding.)
10
MR.
SALAMON:
It
may
be
on
an
older
11
form.
12
MS.
PATRICK:
One
of
the
things
we
13
used
to
do
when
I
talked
about
the
8
and
10
14
percent
statute,
I
think
8
percent
clean
15
water
and
10
percent
clean
air
or
vice
16
versa,
that
was
the
agency
initial
goal
when
17
this
program
first
started
to,
we
used
to
18
just
put
that
same
goal
in
everybody's
19
agreement.
We
didn't
even
look
at
what
the
20
geographic
area
was,
we
didn't
even
look
at
21
what
you're
buying,
it
was
clean
air
8,
slap
22
the
goal
there,
move
on.
The
reason
why
23
it's
probably
still
left
in
your
agreement
is
24
because
of
that.
25
Currently
we
do
not
require
tribes
0019
1
2
to
negotiate
so
you
should
not
have
a
goal
3
at
all
in
your
agreement.
The
fact
is
that
4
somebody
probably
just
Xeroxed
some
old
terms
5
and
conditions
and
just
put
them
in
there
6
and
figured
the
language
didn't
change.
It
7
was
an
oversight
but
that
goal
shouldn't,
8
shouldn't
be
in
your
grant.
9
MS.
COOK:
They've
been
applying
10
that
to
all
your
grants.
11
MR.
SALAMON:
Your
grants
really
12
just
have
the
six
steps
as
a
condition.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
an
error.
14
MR.
SALAMON:
For
Indian
tribes,
15
it's
just
to
follow
the
six
steps.
If
you
16
look
at
all
your
grants,
you
will
not
see
a
17
percentage
on
the
grants
itself.
18
MS.
COOK:
I
mean,
they've
required
19
that
form
to
be
sent
in.
20
MS.
PATRICK:
The
form
is
something
21
different.
The
form
­­
22
MS.
COOK:
I
mean
there's
a
page
on
23
the
application
where
you
put
your
name
on
24
there
and,
actually,
the
line
is
blank
and
25
there's
a
percentage
sign
and
the
next
line
0020
1
2
is
blank
and
what
we've
been
doing
is
while
3
EPA
has
asked
that
we
submit
that
form
with
4
our
application
and
because
it
was
always
8
5
percent
and,
like
I
said,
I
don't
know
where
6
that
8
came
from.
I
mean,
like,
you
know,
7
it
was
probably
originally
part
of
it
and
8
you
probably
just
carried
it
through.
But
9
when
they
required
us
to
do
that
form,
I
10
would
just
add
the
total,
consultant
moneys,
11
equipment,
travel
and
supplies,
I
would
add
12
those
together
and
take
8
percent
of
that
13
and
that
was
our
goal.
Is
that
not
the
14
right
percentage,
then,
now
­­
or
how
do
we
15
figure
that
percentage?
Is
it
up
to
us
what
16
our
goal
is
going
to
be?
17
MS.
PATRICK:
Which
form
are
you
18
talking
about?
19
MR.
SALAMON:
The
5700
form
or
is
20
that
the
one
­­
21
MS.
COOK:
No,
that's
the
reporting
22
form.
There's
another
actual
form.
23
MS.
PATRICK:
I
­­
24
MS.
COOK:
That
goes
with
the
25
application.
It's
not
really,
was
it
in
our
0021
1
2
last
one
we
did,
Ken,
do
you
remember?
3
MR.
JOCK:
I
don't
remember.
4
MR.
SALAMON:
You
want
to
fax
me
a
5
copy.
221­
637­
3518.
Let
me
take
a
look
at
6
that.
But
in
any
case,
whatever
you
report
7
on
your
form
right
now,
it's
100
percent
of
8
the
procurement.
It's
considered
100
percent
9
because
we
don't
have
a
negotiated
rate
with
10
you.
11
MS.
PATRICK:
Whatever
that
8
12
percent
you
guys
have
been
using,
for
right
13
now,
stop
using.
You
can
stop
putting
it
in
14
there
because
it's
a
grant
to
an
Indian
15
tribe.
We
used
to
consider
it
all
100
16
percent
minority
or
women­
owned
business.
17
Consider
it,
all
of
it,
100
percent.
18
One
of
the
things
that
we
saw
when
19
the
review
of
the
program
was
done,
was
that
20
a
lot
of
times
we
would
find
that
we
would
21
be
giving
grants
to
tribes
but
they
were
22
spending
large
amounts
of
the
money
not
with
23
tribally
owned
businesses
or
even
minority
24
owned
businesses,
but
in
most
cases
with
25
large
businesses.
And,
so,
we
have
to
do
a
0022
1
2
report
back
to
Congress.
And
when
we
were
3
giving
them
the
numbers
and
we
had
all
these
4
100
percents
to
Indian
tribes,
it
wasn't
true
5
because
the
money
really
wasn't
being
spent
6
where
we
thought
it
was.
7
One
of
the
reasons
why
we
negotiate
8
rules
is
to
make
sure
we're
getting
an
9
accurate
picture
of
what's
happening
with
the
10
money
that
we
send
out
there,
that
the
11
agency
sends
out.
For
right
now
what
you're
12
doing,
we're
actually
filling
that
goal.
You
13
should
not
put
anything
in
that
spot
or
if
14
you
want
to
put
anything,
put
100
percent.
15
That's
currently
how
we're
operating.
Don't
16
use
the
8
percent.
You
shouldn't
have
been
17
using
that.
That's
probably
really
a
18
historical
thing
that
just
flowed
right
on
19
through
but
you
can
stop
doing
this.
20
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
sir.
21
MS.:
My
name
is
David
Arquette.
22
I'm
with
the
Haudenosaunee
Environmental
Task
23
Force,
and
I
know
what
form
she's
talking
24
about
because
we
have
to
submit
to
the
EPA
25
at
the
end
of
the
year,
too,
as
part
of
our
0023
1
2
grant
requirements;
but
we
just
leave
that
3
blank
because
we
don't
have
any
contractual
4
or
any
stuff
like
that
in
our
grant.
So
5
we've
just
been
leaving
it
blank
or
putting
6
zero.
7
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
what
you
should
8
be
doing.
I
mean,
for
his
case
because
9
there
were
no
expenditures,
no
contracts,
or
10
anything,
that's
definitely
the
case;
but
in
11
terms
of
the
goal,
you
shouldn't
be
putting,
12
just
leave
it.
13
Let's
see,
where
was
I?
On
the,
on
14
the
goals.
15
One
of
the
new
provisions
we're
16
going
to
have
in
the
rule
is
that
the
17
recipient
has
90
days
to
negotiate
a
goal
18
with
us
once
the,
once
the
grant
award
has
19
been
made.
If
the
goal
is
not
negotiated
20
within
the
90
days
of
the
grant
award,
the
21
recipient
will
not
be
allowed
to
spend
the
22
money
on
any
procurement
in
those
four
23
categories
I
mentioned,
construction,
services,
24
equipment,
and
supplies.
If
within
the
90
25
days
there's
no
negotiated
goal,
you
can't
0024
1
2
spend
the
money
because
equipment,
services,
3
construction,
supplies
pretty
much
covers
4
anything
that
anybody
would
buy.
Let's
see.
5
MS.
COOK:
So
we
have
to
negotiate
6
a
goal
with
your
office?
7
MS.
PATRICK:
With
Otto.
8
MR.
SALAMON:
With
me.
9
MS.
COOK:
Otto.
10
MR.
SALAMON:
Let
me
just
add.
11
MS.
PATRICK:
Please.
12
MR.
SALAMON:
That
this
is
going
to
13
be
phased
in,
the
negotiation,
over
a
14
three­
year
period.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
in
here.
16
Because
we
know
this
is
a
new
process
and
17
because
we
also
know
that
this
task
could
be
18
large
for
some
of
our
coordinators
who
are
19
in
regions
that
have
a
large
number
of
20
tribes
they
will
potentially
have
to
21
negotiate
with,
we're
given
a
three­
year
22
phase­
in
period
for
this
rule
only
for
any
23
tribes,
trust
territories,
and
ancillary
24
areas,
just
to
give
time
for
us,
to
have
25
time
for
you
all
to
get
the
availability
0025
1
2
analysis
done
and
to
also
give
us
time
to
3
negotiate
the
goals
and
get
you
used
to
the
4
process
of
how
it
works
during
that
three
5
years.
You
want
to
have
to
do
a
lot
of
6
education
efforts
to
really
make
sure
7
everybody's
on
board.
8
And
we're
not
saying
that
on
the
9
last
day
of
year
3
is
we
want
people
to
get
10
started
with
the
process.
We
would
like
for
11
those
tribes
who
are
able
and
have
their
12
systems
and
everything
in
place
and,
you
13
know,
and
ready
to,
in
place
to
negotiate
14
the
goal,
to
go
ahead
and
start
we
don't
15
want
everybody
on
the
last
day,
okay,
I
want
16
to
come
in
and
talk
about
and
now
we
can
do
17
this
and
figure
something
out.
We
want
to
18
really
have
a
phase­
in
type
of
period
and
19
we're
working
on
exactly
how
we
want
to
roll
20
that
out
and
how
we
want
to
make
sure
that's
21
in
a
nice
smooth
place,
so
at
the
end
of
22
that
three­
year
period,
everybody's
on
board
23
and
ready
to
go
with
the
program.
24
Yes,
sir.
25
MR.
JOCK:
Can
you
give
us,
like,
0026
1
2
let's
say
a
term
of
reference
or
explanation
3
of
what
an
availability
analysis
is
and
type
4
of
information
that
we
need,
we
need
to
5
collect,
let's
say,
if
we're
going
to
a
6
university
or
college
nearby
to
get
that
7
information?
8
MS.
PATRICK:
Yeah,
in
the
rule
and
9
also
in
the
summary
there's
a
brief
10
description
of
what
it
is.
Usually
for
11
most,
for
most
areas
it's
based
on
census
12
data.
We
just
had
a
census,
what,
back
in
13
2000?
14
MR.
SALAMON:
2000.
15
MS.
PATRICK:
Yeah,
2000'
s
the
16
latest
census.
That
data
is
readily
17
available
and
it
will
give
you
sort
of
they
18
also
track
data
in
terms
of
the
number
of
19
minority
and
women­
owned
businesses
in
certain
20
places
and
just
the
geographic
areas
broken
21
down
geographic.
Good
place
to
start
in
22
terms
of
the
numbers.
23
You
can
also
go
to
places
like
Pro
24
Net
and
SBA
websites
and
sort
of
get
an
idea
25
of
what
the
businesses
are
in
your
area,
0027
1
2
that's
a
start
for
gathering
the
information.
3
It
really
is
an
analysis
of
what's
available
4
to
you
in
terms
of
purchasing.
5
MR.
SALAMON:
Also,
the
New
York
6
State
DEC,
they
have
a
very
good
database
by
7
categories.
I
don't,
I
don't
have
the
8
address,
the
address
here,
but
it's
through,
9
I
­­
I
will
be
able
to
­­
I
can
make
it
10
available
to
you.
It's
through
Ken
Strider
11
(
phonetic)
at
the
DEC
and
it's
really
an
12
excellent
resource
for
getting
that
13
information
for
minority
businesses.
14
MS.
PATRICK:
And,
also,
I
just
15
thought
about
something.
Our
office
had
a
16
contractor
put
together
a
wonderful
17
presentation
explaining
the
availability
18
analysis
and
the
goals.
I'm
going
­­
when
I
19
get
back
to
the
office,
I'm
going
to
see
if
20
we
can
we
have
it
posted
on
our
website
for
21
people
to
pull
down.
It
really
goes
step
by
22
step
what
­­
includes
information
you
need
to
23
gather.
I'm
going
to
try
to
make
it
24
available
on
the
website.
It
will
answer
25
more
of
your
questions
than
I
probably
could.
0028
1
2
I'm
sort
of
not
on
that
end
of
the
business.
3
I
have
a
general
understanding
of
how
it
4
works.
That
will
help
you
a
lot
more.
If
5
not,
please
contact
me
so
I
can
send
it
to
6
you
directly.
7
MS.
COOK:
That's
a
presentation
on
8
what?
9
MS.
PATRICK:
On
the
availability
10
analysis
and
the
negotiation
goal.
11
MR.
JOCK:
Thank
you.
12
MS.
PATRICK:
Sure.
Let's
see.
13
Race
and
gender
conscious.
to
the
extent
14
good
faith
efforts
prove
to
be
inadequate
to
15
achieve
the
fair
share
goals
for
MBE's
and
16
WBE's,
we
have
at
our
disposal
to
encourage
17
a
recipient
or
prime
contractor
to
make
18
reasonable
race
and/
or
gender
conscious
19
efforts
­­
I
mean,
action
to
the
extent
20
necessary
to
more
closely
achieve
the
fair
21
share
goals,
including
price
incentives
and
22
technical
evaluation
credits.
When
you're
23
going
through
your
competitive
bid
process,
24
if
you
have
one,
to
award
your
contracts,
25
the
prior
notification
of
the
contemplated
0029
1
2
action
to
EPA
is
required.
3
So
we
sort
of
make
sure
that
no
4
one's
doing
anything
that's
illegal
or
5
something
that's
a
little
bit
too
gender
6
conscious
in
your
actual
efforts
to
meet
the
7
goals.
8
Exemptions.
We
have
built
in
a
9
number
of
exemptions,
which
I
alluded
to
sort
10
of
towards
the
introductory
part
of
the
11
presentation.
The
first
exemption
is
that
12
recipients
of
financial
assistance
agreements
13
in
the
amount
of
$
250,000
or
less
for
any
14
one
fiscal
year
or
a
combined
­­
I
mean,
I'm
15
sorry
­­
for
any
one
grant
or
combined
total
16
of
$
250,000
over
one
fiscal
year
are
exempt
17
from
negotiation
of
goals.
That
exemption
is
18
only
for
the
negotiation
of
goals.
It
does
19
not
exempt
the
recipient
from
doing
6
good
20
faith
efforts.
It
does
not
exempt
the
21
recipient
from
reporting.
Only
from
22
negotiating
the
goal.
23
So
as
a
recipient,
if
your
grant
24
totals
for
a
year
or
if
you
have
any
single
25
grants
that
are
under
$
250,000,
you
don't
0030
1
2
have
to
negotiate
with
us,
okay.
That
3
exemption
also
applies
to
the
revolving
loan
4
fund
programs,
clean
water
­­
I
mean,
Safe
5
Drinking
Water,
Brown
Fields,
et
cetera.
6
We
also
have
built
in,
other
7
exemptions,
that
are
specific
to
tribes
and
8
intertribal
consortia.
If
your
grants
are
9
PPG
eligible,
not
necessarily
rolled
into
a
10
PPG
but
eligible
to
be
rolled
into
a
PPG,
11
which
I
think
includes
17
or
so
grant
12
categories,
those
grants
are
exempted
from
13
negotiation
of
goals,
okay.
Also,
technical
14
assistance
grants
to
tribes
are
exempt
from
15
the
negotiation
of
goals.
16
Once
again,
I
must
be
very
clear,
17
not
exempt
from
the
good
faith
efforts
and
18
not
exempt
from
reporting,
but
just
from
19
negotiating
with
us.
20
One
of
the
comments
or
body
of
21
comments
that
we
received
when
we
went
across
22
the
country
the
first
time
with
the
draft
23
for
many
of
the
tribes
was
that
doing
the
24
negotiation
of
goals
could
be
burdensome
and
25
if
we
could
somehow
find
a
way
to
develop
0031
1
2
some
exemptions
or
they
really
didn't
want
to
3
have
to
negotiate
at
all;
but
that's
4
something
we
couldn't
do
because
we
need
to
5
make
sure
that
the
program
is
applicable
to
6
everybody.
But
we
found
a
way
that
we
could
7
exemptions
that
we
thought
made
sense
both
to
8
us,
I
mean
to
the
agency
and
also
to
the
9
tribal
community.
And
this
is
where
we
came
10
up
with
this
body
of
exemptions.
11
For
example,
in
Region
10,
they
have
12
2,277
tribes
there.
When
we
ran
the
numbers
13
to
see
how
effective
our
exemptions
would
be,
14
once
we
backed
out
all
the
grants
that
are
15
under
250
and
we
backed
out
PPG
eligible
16
grants,
and
we
backed
out
all
the
TAG
17
grants,
the
number
of
negotiations
that
they
18
would
have
to
do
in
Region
10
went
from
19
2,277
to
around
20.
So
we
think
that's
a
20
very
effective
set
of
exemptions
that
we
have
21
in
place.
22
Our
primary
goal
is
to
make
sure
we
23
really
go
after
­­
not
go
after
­­
we
really
24
capture
information
from
tribes
who
are
25
receiving
large
amounts
of
money
because
not
0032
1
2
­­
we're
not
talking
about
very
small
grants
3
that
are
a
lot
of
times
it's
used
for
4
payrolls.
So,
instead
of
knowing
payroll
5
process
of
negotiating
and
your
four
6
categories
to
begin
with,
just
didn't
make
7
any
sense
and
so
what
we're
talking
about
8
larger
grant
moneys.
We
know
the
probability
9
of
doing
some
contracting,
sometimes
major
10
contracting
is
a
lot
higher
and
those
numbers
11
we
really
want
to
capture
for
our
reporting
12
purposes.
So
that's
the
reason
why.
13
We
talked
about
the
three­
year
14
phase­
in
period
for
the
tribe
areas.
15
Recordkeeping
and
reporting.
We
are
16
requiring
that
all
recipients
maintain
a
17
bidder's
list.
A
bidder's
list
will
capture
18
the
companies
that
have
been
on
your
projects
19
when
you
do
your
competitive
process
for
20
contracting.
The
bidder's
list
we
hope
will
21
develop
into
a
very
useful
database
of
22
sources
for
you
in
terms
of
negotiating
what
23
your
universe
is
and
who's
available
to
do
24
work.
And
it
also
gives
us
an
opportunity
25
if
we
come
out
and
do
a
review,
to
make
0033
1
2
sure
to
see
that,
you
know,
okay,
the
3
practice
is
fair,
was
there
a
good
number
of
4
minority­
owned
businesses
on
that
bidder's
5
list
and
this,
that,
and
the
third.
And
6
we're
not
going
to
donk
you
over
the
head
if
7
it's
not
there.
It's
just
a
good
body
of
8
information
to
go
back
to
as
a
resource,
not
9
only
for
us
but
for
you,
so
you
don't
have
10
to
reinvent
the
wheel
every
time
you
go
and
11
do
a
procurement
or
you
go
to
and
do
a
12
solicitation.
Final
thing,
the
bidder's
list
13
must
be
kept
until
the
grant
project
period,
14
identified
known
or
identified
project
is
15
completed.
So
once
you
close
out
the
grant
16
that,
so
ends
the
bidder's
list
or
once
17
you're
finished
with
the
project,
if
you're
18
talking
about
a
revolving
loan
fund
program,
19
then
that
concludes
the
bidder's
list
for
20
that
particular
project.
Okay.
21
Waivers.
In
provisions
such
that
22
the
OSDIBU
director
has
the
ability
to
grant
23
a
waiver
from
some
of
the
provisions
of
the
24
rule.
The
director
can't
grant
waivers
on
25
parts
of
the
rule
that
are
based
on
statute
0034
1
2
or
executive
order.
We
don't
have
that
3
authority.
If
it's
in
the
statute
or
4
executive
order,
we
can't
waive
that
5
provision.
Just
to
give
you
an
idea
of
some
6
of
the
things
that
are
in
statutes
or
7
executive
orders,
in
terms
of
statute,
we're
8
talking
about
the
6
good
faith
efforts
and
9
the
reporting
requirements
which
will
never
10
go
away.
There's
not
going
to
be
an
11
exception
from
those
things
in
terms
of
what
12
they
can
grant
a
waiver
for,
it's,
it's
some
13
of
the
other
provisions
of
the
rule.
14
Next
steps.
What's
listed
on
your
15
next
steps,
currently
we're
sort
of
in
the
16
middle
of
that
now.
It's
180
day
process
17
for
doing
hearings
and
getting
public
18
comment.
There
are
a
number
of
ways
to
get
19
your
comments
in
to
us.
If
you
look
at
20
your
actual
text
of
the
rule
which
is
this
21
one,
on
the
Very
first
page
as
soon
as
you
22
open
it
up,
Page
43824
list
the
different
23
ways
you
can
submit
comments.
We
will
24
accept
them
by
fax,
by
Email,
via
the
25
website,
in
writing
by
snail
mail,
or
anyway
0035
1
2
you
can
get
them
into
us.
Please,
please,
3
please
if
later
on
you
go
back
and
read
4
this,
you
have
some
more
burning
questions
or
5
comments,
please
submit
them
to
us
because
6
it's
the
only
way
this
document
can
really
7
take
shape
in
a,
you
know,
to
be
the
most
8
effective
document
we
can
make
it.
So,
9
please
read
through
here
and
look
at
the
10
different
ways
you
can
make
your
comments
and
11
get
them
back
to
us.
12
The
comment
period
for
the
rule
13
closes
on
January
20th,
2004.
So
please
14
submit
your
comments
before
then.
Don't
wait
15
to
the
19th,
because
I'm
going
through
the
16
process
now
of
as
we
go
along,
I'm
trying
to
17
go
ahead
and
categorize
them
at
least
and
18
begin
some
responses.
If
they
trickle
in,
19
you
know,
over
a
nice
even
period
of
time,
20
that
would
be
great
for
me;
but
I
probably
21
know
that
I
will
get
a
load
of
comments
on
22
the
20th
at
4:
00
in
the
afternoon.
That's
23
pretty
much
the
way
it
works.
Does
anyone
24
have
any
questions
of
me,
comments,
concerns?
25
MR.
ARQUETTE:
I
got
one.
0036
1
2
MS.
PATRICK:
Sure.
3
MR.
ARQUETTE:
Will
you
accept
4
certification
from
businesses
if
they
don't
5
have
US
citizenship?
6
MS.
PATRICK:
No,
we
will
not.
7
Currently
the
way
the
rule
is
written
is
8
that
we
follow
SBA
standards
just
to
try
and
9
create
some
uniformity.
And
SBA
does
require
10
US
citizenship
and
the
agency
has
made
a
11
decision
that
we
would
stay
with
that
12
standard.
13
MR.
ARQUETTE:
The
reason
why
I
ask
14
is
because
a
lot
of
our
businesses
at
15
Haudenosaunee,
they
don't
consider
us
US
16
citizens.
If
they
can't
apply
for
a
17
certification
from
any
of
the
other
agencies,
18
if
you
state
that
they
have
to
be
US
19
citizens,
which
they're
not,
and
we
use
them
20
because
we
know
they're
minority
businesses
21
because
they're
Mohawks
and
they
only
­­
the
22
businesses
and
we
got
our
equipment
and
23
supplies
from
them,
how
do
they
get
24
certified,
then,
if
they,
if
they
can't
state
25
that
they're
US
citizens?
0037
1
2
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
currently
they
3
would
not
be
able
to
get
certified
at
all.
4
Not
through
us
and
not
through
SBA,
either.
5
and
through
many
of
the
state
programs
they
6
wouldn't
be
able
to
get
certified,
as
well.
7
DOT
does
accept,
what
is
it,
the
terminology
8
naturalized,
not
naturalized,
it's
another
9
word
I
can't
think
of
it;
but
it's
something
10
that's
not
quite
full
US
citizen.
But
DOT
11
will
accept
that.
But
I'm
really
not
­­
12
they
wouldn't
be
able
to
be
certified.
Not
13
that
you
could
not
use
them.
Like
I
said,
14
if
it
makes
the
best
business
sense
for
you
15
to
go
with
those
companies,
then
you
continue
16
to
do
that.
They
just
wouldn't
be
able
to
17
count
towards
whatever
goal
would
be
18
established
for
you.
19
Yes,
ma'am.
20
MS.
COOK:
So,
our
tribe,
our
21
division
isn't
currently
housed
in
the
Saint
22
Regis
Mohawk
Tribal
Building,
the
23
administration
building,
they
don't
have
room
24
for
us
there.
So,
we're
in
a
position
where
25
we
have
to
rent
office
space
and
that's
also
0038
1
2
on
the,
on
the
reservation
and
we're
probably
3
only
3
miles
from
the
administration
4
building;
but
how
would
that
work
in
terms
5
of
our
landlords
are
obviously
Mohawk
and
6
they
reside
probably
30
feet
from
our
actual
7
building;
but
how
would
they
go
about
getting
8
certified
as
individuals,
you
know,
because
9
they're
not
a
multi
million
dollar
enterprise
10
or
anything
like
that,
but
­­
and
they're
11
not
a
real
business,
so
to
speak?
12
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.
My,
I'm
just
13
sitting
here
trying
to
think
in
my
mind
if
14
renting
space
is
considered
construction
15
services,
equipment,
or
supplies.
I
think
an
16
argument
could
be
made
that
it
does
not
fit
17
in
those
four
categories.
If
that
is
the
18
case
and
isn't
it
like
an
allowable
cost
19
under
a
grant?
20
MR.
SALAMON:
Indirect
cost.
21
MS.
PATRICK:
Indirect
cost.
22
MR.
SALAMON:
Indirect,
they're
23
negotiated
indirect
costs
in
the
grant.
24
MS.
PATRICK:
Wouldn't
that
be
a
25
certain
percentage
that
he
could
use
for
the
0039
1
2
administrative
grant
so
you
wouldn't
have
to
3
report
that,
anyway?
See
what
I'm
saying,
I
4
think
it
would
be
outside
the
four
categories
5
I
listed
also
on
top
of
that
part
of
that
6
percentage
you
can
use
out
of
your
grant
7
money
for
administrative
types
of
costs
so,
8
in
essence,
your
landlord
wouldn't
have
to
be
9
certified
because
it
doesn't
count
within
10
those
four
categories
anyway.
11
MS.
COOK:
It
does
because
we
pay
12
it
out
of
there.
13
MS.
PATRICK:
Right,
but
it's
part
14
of
the
administrative
indirect
costs.
15
MS.
COOK:
No,
it's
not.
16
MS.
PATRICK:
You
don't
do
it
that
17
way?
18
MR.
SALAMON:
You
don't
have
19
negotiated
indirect
cost?
20
MS.
COOK:
Yes,
our
rent
doesn't
21
come
out
of
there.
22
MS.
PATRICK:
Your
rent
is
coming
23
out
of
the
pot,
I
would
say
it
doesn't
fit
24
in
those
four
categories.
I
don't
see
how
25
renting
space
­­
0040
1
2
MR.
SALAMON:
What's
covered
under
3
your
indirect
costs,
electricity?
4
MS.
COOK:
Yes.
5
MR.
JOCK:
Heat,
those
are
for
all
6
tribally­
owned
facilities.
This
is
not
a
7
tribal
owned
facility,
so
that's
why
it's
not
8
covered
under
indirect.
9
MS.
PATRICK:
It's
not
construction,
10
could
be
equipment.
11
MR.
SALAMON:
But
a
portion
of
the
12
grant
that
your,
a
portion
of
the
grant
13
would
be
covered
by
that,
wouldn't
it,
it
14
would
be
the
indirect
cost
rate.
15
MR.
JOCK:
We
have
it
listed
as
a
16
direct
cost
as
office
space
rental.
17
MR.
SALAMON:
As
office
space
18
rental.
19
MR.
JOCK:
Yes.
20
MS.
COOK:
Yes.
21
MR.
SALAMON:
As
a
direct
cost.
22
MS.
COOK:
It's
a
direct
cost,
so
23
why
shouldn't
we
be
able
to
report
that
as
24
part
of
your
WBE/
MBE?
25
MS.
PATRICK:
Currently
you
can.
0041
1
2
Once
the
rule
goes
into
effect
­­
3
MS.
COOK:
They
would
have
to
be
4
certified,
you're
saying
in
order
to
use
5
that.
6
MS.
PATRICK:
You
could
still
use
7
them
but
in
order
for
them
to
count,
they
8
would
have
to
be
certified.
9
MS.
COOK:
How
would
they
go
about
10
being
certified?
11
MS.
PATRICK:
They
could
go
through
12
the
process
and
apply
through
the
agency
13
directly,
through
the
EPA
directly
to
get
14
certified.
15
MS.
COOK:
That
would
be
you,
Otto,
16
they
would
have
an
application
that
they
17
would
fill
out?
18
MR.
SALAMON:
An
application.
19
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
for
certification.
20
MS.
COOK:
How
would
they
go
about
21
being
certified?
22
MS.
PATRICK:
We're
planning
to
at
23
least
have
our
coordinators
have
the
24
applications
and
be
able
to
disseminate
them.
25
The
application
could
come
back
to
0042
1
2
headquarters.
3
They
fill
out
the
application
for
4
certification
and
if
the
situation
is
as
you
5
described
it,
I
couldn't
see
a
reason
why
6
they
would
be
denied
that
certification.
It
7
seems
as
though
it's
just,
you
know,
8
something
that
would
probably
not
have
an
9
issue
in
getting
through.
I'm
sure
that
the
10
750
net
worth
requirement
is
probably
lower
11
than
that
and
I
don't
think
that
would
be
a
12
problem,
but
the
process,
yes,
there
is
an
13
application
process
for
certification
when
you
14
go
directly
through
the
agency.
We
have
15
forms
that
are
specific
for
tribally
owned
16
concerns
and
businesses
and
so
those,
those
17
forms,
by
the
way,
are
I
think
right
now
18
they're
going
through
an
ONB
sort
of
approval
19
type
process
and
they're
going
to
have
to
20
also
be
commented
on
and
put
there
and
this
21
that
and
the
third
and
the
hopefully
this
22
will
caught
up
to
this
process
in
the
next
23
few
months
but,
yes,
there
will
be
this
one
24
process
and
they
could
get
certified.
25
MR.
SALAMON:
You
will
be
sending
it
0043
1
2
to
me
and
I
will
be
sending
to
the
OSDIBU.
3
Okay.
4
MS.
PATRICK:
Any
other
questions?
5
MS.
LaFRANCE:
My
name
is
Brenda
6
LaFrance.
I
work
for
the
Environmental
Task
7
Force.
And
I
think
there's
a
larger
issue
8
for
the
women
people
because
of
the
US
9
citizen
requirement.
And
we're
an
agency
of
10
the
Haudenosaunee,
so
Dave
and
I
can't
11
actually
speak
for
our
counsel.
However,
I
12
believe
that
this
is
going
to
be
a
very
13
troublesome
issue
for
the
Haudenosaunee
people
14
because
on
treaty
rights
and
on
historical
15
agreements,
Haudenosaunee
are
not
US
citizens;
16
however,
they
operate
within,
you
know,
what
17
you
call
the
United
States
government.
So,
18
I
think
that's,
they
will
probably
be
making
19
comment
on
this
issue.
20
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
21
MS.
LaFRANCE:
And
maybe
looking
for
22
an
exemption
like
you
provided
exemptions
for
23
the
other
areas.
24
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
Thanks
for
25
giving
me
that.
Okay.
0044
1
2
Any
other
comments,
questions?
Okay.
3
If
later
on,
you
do
have
other
questions,
4
you
have
my
business
cards,
you
can
call
and
5
ask
and,
also,
please
provide
your
comments.
6
You
had
a
question,
sir?
7
MR.
JOCK:
You
mentioned
that
tribal
8
government
could
certify
MBE/
WBE,
also.
9
MS.
PATRICK:
If
a
tribal
government
10
has
a
program
in
place
­­
some
of
them
do
11
­­
sometimes
your
­­
what
is
it
your,
I
12
can't
think
of
what
it
is
now,
is
it
the,
13
the
territory.
Sometimes
some
territories
do
14
have
some
things
like,
you
know,
buy
Indian
15
first
types
of
things.
Some
have
some
type
16
of
certification
and
some
tribes
do
that,
17
they
will
certify
their
tribally
owned
18
businesses.
In
those
instances
where
a
tribe
19
has
a
program
set
up
to
certify
those
own
20
businesses,
we
will
accept
those
21
certifications,
as
long
as
they
meet
what
our
22
criteria
is
for
certification.
23
MR.
JOCK:
Okay.
24
MS.
PATRICK:
Anything
else?
Okay.
25
We're
done
early.
Thank
you
very
much.
0045
1
2
That
will
end
the
session.
Thank
you
for
3
your
time.
4
(
Whereupon
the
proceedings
were
5
concluded
at
this
time.)
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0046
1
2
CERTIFICATE
3
4
I,
DIANE
MARTENS,
Court
Reporter
and
5
Notary
Public
in
and
for
the
State
of
New
6
York,
DO
HEREBY
CERTIFY
that
I
attended
the
7
foregoing
proceedings,
took
stenographic
notes
8
of
the
same,
that
the
foregoing
is
a
true
9
and
correct
copy
of
same
and
the
whole
10
thereof.
11
12
13
________________________________
14
Diane
Martens
15
16
Dated:
December
9,
2003.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25