Document ID: EPA-HQ-OA-2002-0001-0083
Agency: epa
Document Type: Supporting & Related Material
Title: 
Posted Date: 2005-06-17T04:00Z

Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
i
1
1
EPA
2
OFFICE
OF
SMALL
&
DISADVANTAGED
BUSINESS
3
UTILIZATION
4
5
6
7
8
PUBLIC
HEARING
ON
EPA'S
PROPOSED
DBE
RULE
9
10
11
12
13
TRANSCRIPT
OF
PROCEEDINGS
had
at
the
14
Metcalf
Federal
Building,
77
West
Jackson
Street,

15
Room
331,
Chicago,
Illinois,
in
the
above­
entitled
16
cause
on
the
13th
day
of
January,
A.
D.
2004,
at
17
9:
25
a.
m.

18
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ii
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
iii
2
1
PRESENT:

2
3
MS.
JEANETTE
BROWN,
Director,
Office
of
Small
and
4
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization;

5
MS.
CYNDY
COLANTONI,
Associate
Director,
Resources
6
Management
Division;

7
MS.
KIMBERLY
PATRICK,
Attorney,
Office
of
Small
and
8
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization;

9
MS.
LYNN
DONLEY,
Region
V
Outreach;

10
MS.
SHARON
GREEN,
Revion
V
Hearing
Organizer.

11
12
REPORTED
BY:
JACQUELINE
M.
TIMMONS,

13
C.
S.
R.,
R.
M.
R.,
R.
D.
R.

14
Certificate
No.
84­
2949.

15
16
17
18
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
iv
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
v
3
1
ASSOCIATE
DIRECTOR
COLANTONI:
Good
morning.

2
(
Chorus
of
good
mornings.)

3
ASSOCIATE
DIRECTOR
COLANTONI:
I
would
like
to
4
get
us
started
so
we
are
kind
of
on
schedule.

5
My
name
is
Cyndy
Colantoni.
I'm
the
6
Associate
Director
for
the
Resources
Management
7
Division
within
Region
V,
Chicago.
I
would
like
to
8
welcome
you
today
to
Region
V
and
hope
that
all
of
9
your
concerns
and
issues
will
be
addressed
through
10
this
public
hearing.
And
issues
to
be
heard.

11
I
would
like
to
introduce
Jeanette
12
Brown,
who
is
the
Director
of
the
Office
of
Small
13
Disadvantaged
Business
Utilization.
She
and
her
14
staff
have
had
courses
throughout
EPA,
do
provide
15
the
service
and
the
voice
to
the
small
business
16
owners
throughout
the
community.
I
know
that
17
you're
interested
in
getting
into
the
hearing,

18
getting
your
points
voiced
and
hearing
all
the
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
vi
19
information.
So
I
am
going
to
turn
it
right
over
20
to
Jeanette.

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you.

22
Good
morning.

23
(
Chorus
of
good
mornings.)

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
It
is
good
to
be
in
Chicago.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
vii
4
1
With
our
schedule,
I
know
that
I
should
be
home
2
very
soon.
Last
week
we
were
in
Montana.
This
3
week
Chicago.
Next
week
San
Francisco
and
two
4
weeks
from
there,
Alaska.
And
so,
then,
the
5
hearing
period
is
over,
and
I
can
remember,
then,

6
what
my
house,
my
home
looks
like,
my
family
looks
7
like,
and
get
some
rest,
hopefully.
We
would
like
8
to
welcome
you,
as
just
was
stated,
to
the
MBE/
WBE
9
hearing
here
at
EPA.

10
Before
we
get
into
the
hearing
process,

11
there
are
a
couple
things
I
would
like
to
do.

12
First,
let
me
introduce
you
to
Ms.
Sharon
Green.

13
For
all
of
you
new
in
this
region,
you
need
to
know
14
her.
That's
the
lady
you
need
to
know.
She
is
15
your
MBE/
WBE
coordinator.
She
works
to
carry
out
16
the
program
here
in
Region
V,
and
so
if
you
don't
17
know
her,
you
need
to
make
sure
you
do
know
her.

18
For
all
of
the
businesses
that
are
in
the
house,
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
viii
19
let
me
see
your
hand.

20
(
There
was
a
show
of
hands.)

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Good.
You
all
need
to
know
22
her.
She
needs
to
have
your
capability
statement,

23
she
needs
to
know
what
you
do,
because
she
is
24
working
internally
with
the
contracts
and
the
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ix
5
1
program
people
and
the
grants
people
and
the
2
management
team
that's
here
to
work
to
ensure
that
3
you
all
receive
an
ample
opportunity
to
go
after
4
the
contracting
opportunities
here.

5
To
do
business
with
EPA,
there
are
two
6
ways
to
do
that;
directly
or
indirectly.
Today,

7
for
the
purpose
of
this
meeting,
we
are
going
to
8
talk
about
the
program
and
indirect
portion
of
the
9
program
as
it
relates
to
our
grants,
co­
op
grants
10
to
the
states'
nonprofits,
trusts,
territories,
et
11
cetera.

12
Tomorrow
we
will
be
meeting
with
the
13
tribes.
But
this
meeting
is
open
to
anybody
who
14
wants
to
come.
Tomorrow
if
you
want
to
come,
you
15
can
come
to
that
one,
too,
but
in
particular
we
are
16
meeting
with
the
tribes
because
there
are
some
17
things
that
we're
proposing
in
the
rule
that
will
18
impact
them
quite
drastically,
probably
more
than
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
x
19
the
other
businesses,
things
that
are
going
to
be
20
in
place
for
the
first
time.
And
so
we
need
to
21
meet
and
talk
with
them.

22
In
addition
to
that,
traveling
with
me
23
is
my
attorney
advisor,
Ms.
Kimberly
Patrick.
She
24
will
speak
shortly.
She's
been
working
on
this
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xi
6
1
program
for
at
least
two
years
or
a
year
and
a
2
half.

3
MS.
PATRICK:
Two
and
a
half.

4
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Two
and
a
half.
Time
flies
5
when
you're
having
fun.

6
So
she
is
going
to
be
the
attorney,
lead
7
attorney
closing
out
and
working
on
getting
the
8
rule
final
in
coordination
with
a
lot
of
other
9
people
from
around
the
country,
in
the
legal
staff
10
as
well
as
in
the
program
areas,
as
we
come
to
11
finalize
the
rule.

12
Let
me
just
tell
you
how
we
got
here.

13
We
have
been
working
on
this.
We
have
been
trying
14
to
get
a
handle
of
how
many
years
it's
been.
It
15
think
it
has
been
about
six
years
in
total.
That's
16
a
long
time.
We
have
a
draft
Proposed
Rule
that
17
was
out.
We
got
comments.
We
had
hearings
all
18
around
the
country.
We
had
this
­­
we
had
a
draft
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xii
19
of
the
Draft
Proposed
Rule,
and
that
was
out
for
20
quite
awhile.
We
went
all
around
the
country
with
21
hearings,
and
I
need
to
say,
this
is
a
time
for
you
22
to
participate
in
public
policy.
Your
comments
do
23
make
a
difference,
but
if
we
don't
hear
from
you,

24
we
can't
factor
that
in.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xiii
7
1
As
a
result
of
what
we
did
the
first
2
time
with
the
draft
Draft
Proposed
Rule,
we
have
3
what
you
have
seen
or
what
you
should
see
­­
can
I
4
use
this?

5
Hopefully
everybody
got
this.
This
is
6
the
Proposed
Rule
that's
in
the
federal
regs.
And
7
as
a
result
of
the
meetings
that
we
have
had
early
8
on
in
the
process,
three
to
four
years
ago,
we
came
9
up
with
this.
But
it
was
because
we
had
meetings
10
like
this
and
people
gave
us
comments,
and
they
11
questioned
us
and
they
challenged
us
because
a
lot
12
of
what
we
thought,
we
had
not
­­
we
thought
we
had
13
covered
everything,
and
we
hadn't.

14
And
so
with
the
comments
that
people
15
gave
to
us,
we
were
able
to
make
some
adjustments
16
to
our
thinking,
and
so
just
in
case
we
didn't
17
think
of
everything
this
time,
I
need
you
to
read
18
this
material,
because
I
need
you
to
give
us
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xiv
19
feedback
and
we
will
tell
you
how
to
go
about
that
20
and
how
to
do
that,
but
your
comments
are
important
21
to
us.

22
Kimberly
will
go
through
much
later
what
23
the
process
is,
but
today
we
are
having
a
hearing.

24
So
with
that,
what
I
need
you
all
to
do
is,
when
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xv
8
1
you
have
a
question
and
as
you
speak,
come
to
the
2
mic.
We
have
one
of
our
contractors
working
with
3
us,
Mason
Tillman
&
Associates.
Lori
is
going
to
4
be
our
banner
for
today.
She
is
going
to
run
5
around
with
the
mic
to
make
sure
you
all
speak
into
6
the
mic,
because
this
is
being
recorded
so
that
we
7
can
take
your
comments
back.

8
I
can't
­­
I
am
good,
but
I
can't
9
remember
everything.
I'm
at
the
point
now
where
10
some
of
my
senior
moments
kick
in.
(
Laughter)
And
11
from
one
state
to
the
next
and
one
hearing
to
the
12
next,
I
can't
remember
everything
that
has
been
13
suggested
or
recommended.
And
so
we
are
having
14
this
recorded
and
she
needs
to
be
able
to
hear
from
15
you.
As
you
speak
into
the
mic,
I
need
you
to
say
16
who
you
are
and
the
company
and/
or
organization
17
that
you
represent.
And
I
need
you
to
say
that
18
every
time
you
speak
into
the
mic,
every
time
you
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xvi
19
ask
a
question.
Is
that
okay?

20
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
Fine.

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
All
right.
Sharon,
we
need
22
to
take
care
of
some
housekeeping,
where
the
23
restrooms
are,
et
cetera.
If
you
could
help
me
24
with
that,
because
I
don't
know
myself.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xvii
9
1
SHARON:
The
ladies
restroom
and
mens
2
restroom,
when
you
exit
where
you
registered
at,

3
the
ladies
restroom
is
immediately
to
your
right.

4
You
go
through
the
double
glass
doors
for
the
men
5
and
it
is
also
immediately
to
the
right.
If
you
6
need
to
get
bottled
water
or,
like,
soda
later
on,

7
you
can
go
down
the
escalators
and
there
is
a
store
8
where
you
can
get
additional
snacks.

9
If
you
get
hungry
throughout,
though,
we
10
still
have
muffins,
danishes
and
some
very
strong
11
coffee
and
water
for
tea.

12
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you,
Sharon.

13
Did
everybody
get
an
agenda?
We
are
14
going
to
try
to
stay
as
close
to
this
as
possible.

15
We
recognize
you
all
may
have
a
lot
of
questions,

16
and
we
want
to
make
sure
we
give
you
ample
17
opportunity
to
voice
your
opinions.

18
We
also
have
with
us
quite
a
few
people
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xviii
19
from
within
the
Region
who
works
in
the
program,

20
either
in
grants,
some
of
the
program
offices.
We
21
also
have
the
head
of
grants
here,
Pat
Thompson,

22
and
we
also
have
Lynn
Donley,
who
is
the
Region
V
23
attorney
who
has
also
worked
with
us
on
the
24
program,
right
up
front.
So
we
­­
Darlene
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xix
10
1
Hughes­
Hainer
was
the
MBE/
WBE
program
coordinator
2
for
a
couple
of
years.

3
MS.
HAINER:
Yes,
a
couple
of
years.

4
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
So
she
is
down
in
the
5
contracts
shops.
We
have
quite
a
few
other
people.

6
Before
we
get
started,
one
of
the
things
7
that
I
would
like
to
do
is
to
give
you
a
two
second
8
whole
thing.
I'd
like
to
know
who
is
in
the
9
audience.
I
know
you
have
name
tags,
but
I
can't
10
see
all
of
those.
I
would
like
to
get
a
feel
for
11
who
I
have
and
what
the
audience
is,
so
if
you
12
could,
just
line
up,
not
everybody
at
one
time.

13
Come
to
the
mic
and
tell
me
who
you
are
and
what
it
14
is
that
you
do.

15
The
reason
why
I
do
this,
and
I
do
this
16
almost
every
time
we
are
in
public
and
have
a
17
meeting,
especially
with
a
large
gathering,
you
18
never
known,
as
a
minority
business,
where
an
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xx
19
opportunity
is.
Take
advantage
of
it.
Okay.

20
I
don't
want
a
long
dissertation
about
21
what
your
company
does,
but
give
me
enough
bites
so
22
that,
and
give
me
enough
so
other
people
will
want
23
to
come
and
seek
you
out.
The
other
thing
that
I
24
am
going
to
ask
that
you
do
is,
meet
three
other
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxi
11
1
people
at
a
minimum
before
you
leave
here
today.

2
And
you
take
their
business
cards,
and
when
you
3
listen
and
hear,
we
have
some
state
reps
here,
you
4
all
need
to
know
who
they
are
because
they
are
5
looking
for
you.

6
I
am
going
to
sit
down
and
listen
to
you
7
now.

8
Yes,
sir.

9
MR.
SYL
SAFFOLD
(
Jacob
Business
Resources):

10
My
name
is
Syl
Saffold,
and
my
company
is
Jacob
11
Business
Resources.
We
do
business
consulting.
We
12
actually
help
entrepreneurs
start
businesses.
We
13
do
business
plans.
We
do
management
consulting
for
14
existing
businesses.
We
also
create
websites
and
15
different
networking
solutions.

16
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Small,
8A,
woman­
owned,
what?

17
MR.
SAFFOLD:
Small
minority­
owned
business.

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxii
19
MS.
KAY
SAUNDERS
(
Bellewether,
Ltd.):
Good
20
morning.
I'm
Kay
Saunders
with
Bellewether,
Ltd.,

21
based
in
Kansas
City,
Missouri.
We're
an
8A
SDB
22
firm.
We
provide
our
clients
with
organizational
23
development,
technical
writing
documentation
24
support
and
anything
that
supports
the
structure
of
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxiii
12
1
an
organization.

2
MR.
LESTER
LEWIS
(
Paradigm
2000):
Lester
3
Lewis,
Paradigm
2000.
We
do
telecommunication,
Web
4
design
and
development,
video
production,
where
we
5
should
be
videotaping
this
session
here
and
6
streaming
it
live
all
the
way
around
the
world.
We
7
can
do
it
secure.
We
are
8A,
we're
disadvantaged
8
and
we're
small
A
­­
I
mean
small
business.

9
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Small.

10
MR.
WALTER
PEARSON
(
Missouri
Department
of
11
Natural
Resources):
My
name
is
Walter
Pearson.

12
I'm
with
the
Missouri
Department
of
National
13
Resources.
We're
WBE
with
the
EPA
and
Region
VII,

14
and
also
the
Environmental
Justice
Program.

15
MR.
R.
LEE
FIELDS
(
Robco
Industrial
Waste
16
Management,
Inc.):
My
name
is
R.
Lee
Fields,

17
President
of
Robco
Industrial
Waste
Management.
We
18
are
an
SDB
firm.
We
have
been
around
for
20
years,
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxiv
19
over
22
percent
of
the
country.
And
my
main
client
20
is
federal
government.
Our
firm
is
environmental
21
engineers.

22
MR.
JESSE
ANZALDUA
(
Anzaldua
Mechanical,

23
Inc.):
I'm
Jesse
Anzaldua
with
Anzaldua
Mechanical
24
from
Kalamazoo,
Michigan.
I'm
an
8A
firm.
I'm
a
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxv
13
1
full
licensed
mechanical
contractor,
union
2
contractor,
and
we
are
also
a
general
contractor
3
doing
two
big
projects
for
EPA
right
now.

4
MR.
JOHNNY
JOHNSON
(
Johnson
Marketing
&

5
Management
Company):
My
name
is
Johnny
Johnson,

6
Johnson
Marketing
&
Management
Company.
We
are
an
7
8A
certified
SDB.
We
market
bar
codes,
scanning
8
equipment,
mobile
computers.
In
addition
to
9
information
technology,
we
also
provide
information
10
technology
services,
as
well.
So
we
have
the
11
software
services
and
the
hardware.

12
MR.
TIMOTHY
SLATER
(
Dynamic
Process
Solutions,

13
Inc.):
My
name
is
Timothy
Slater
with
Dynamic
14
Process
Solutions,
Incorporated,
out
of
O'Fallon,

15
Illinois.
We
are
an
information
technology
company
16
that
provides
total
support.
We
are
small
17
business,
8A,
minority
veteran­
owned.

18
MS.
LUDELLA
LEWIS
(
Ludella
Lewis
&
Company):
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxvi
19
My
name
is
Ludella
Lewis,
and
I'm
the
owner
of
20
Ludella
Lewis
&
Company.
I
provide
accounting,

21
taxes
and
consulting
services.
I
am
WBE,
MBE
and
22
DBE.

23
MR.
GREGORY
ARHEGHAN
(
Hunsi
Group,
Inc.):
My
24
name
is
Gregory
Arheghan.
My
company
is
Hunsi
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxvii
14
1
Group,
Inc.,
out
of
Cleveland,
Ohio,
where
it
is
a
2
certified
construction,
construction
manager
and
3
engineers.
Thank
you.

4
MS.
JAN
TURNER
(
Cotter
Consulting,
Inc.):
My
5
name
is
Jan
Turner.
I
am
Director
of
Project
6
Management
for
Cotter
Consulting.
We
do
7
construction
management
and
programming
and
project
8
management
and
owner
ref
services.
We
are
a
DBE
9
and
WBE
here
in
Chicago.

10
MS.
CHARLENE
TURCZYN
(
CMW
&
Associates):

11
Charlene
Turczyn.
I'm
with
CMW
&
Associates.

12
We're
an
8A
certified
firm
and
we're
located
in
13
Springfield,
Illinois.
We
supply
computer
14
engineers,
accountants
and
administrative
15
assistants
under
the
GSA
contract.

16
MR.
EDWARD
J.
MICHNA
(
Industrial
&

17
Environmental
Services,
LLC):
My
name
is
Ed
18
Michna,
business
development
manage
for
Industrial
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxviii
19
&
Environmental
Services
out
of
Gary,
Indiana.
We
20
are
a
small
MBE,
DBE
firm
with
8A
certification
21
venue.

22
MS.
CLAIRE
WILLIAMS
(
Environmental
Design
23
International,
Inc.):
My
name
is
Claire
Williams.

24
I'm
with
Environmental
Design
International,
a
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxix
15
1
local
Chicago
firm,
8A,
woman­
owned,
hub
zone.
We
2
provide
environmental
engineering,
civil
3
engineering,
topographic
surveys,
geotechnical
4
engineering,
13­
year
old
company
and
we
currently
5
have
a
Region
V
staff
contract.

6
MS.
SCOTTIE
KERSTA­
WILSON
(
Environmental
7
Health
Consulting):
My
name
is
Scottie
8
Kersta­
Wilson
with
Environmental
Health
Consulting,

9
a
woman­
owned,
small
business
out
of
Oak
Park,

10
Illinois.

11
We
do
risk
assessment,
specifically
in
12
the
area
of
children
and
other
vulnerable
13
subpopulations
and
currently
have
an
EPA
Region
V
14
OCHB
contract.

15
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
Good
16
morning.
I'm
Lance
Stokes.
I'm
President
of
ECI
17
Unlimited,
Inc.
We
are
an
environmental
18
engineering
and
environmental
consulting
firm.
We
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxx
19
have
been
doing
business
12
years.
This
past
July
20
we
became
8A
certified.
We're
based
out
of
21
Detroit,
Michigan,
and
we're
looking
to
hopefully
22
do
some
in
situ
chemical
oxidation
to
get
all
of
23
the
tetrachloroethylene,
the
dry
cleaning
fluid,

24
from
the
munitions
sites.
And
we're
ready.
We're
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxi
16
1
ready
to
do
it
right
now.
Thank
you.
(
Laughter
2
and
applause)

3
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
All
right.

4
MS.
SARAY
RODRIGUEZ
(
Bravo
Solutions,
LLC):
I
5
am
Saray
Rodriguez.
I'm
with
Bravo
Solutions.
We
6
do
ERP,
oracle,
namely.
In
general,
we
do
IT
7
solutions.
I
am
an
MBE,
WBE
and
working
on
8A.

8
MS.
JESSE
LUTTENTON
(
Keweenaw
Bay
Indian
9
Community):
My
name
is
Jesse
Luttenton.
I
am
the
10
community
economic
developer
and
director
of
11
community
development
for
the
Keweenaw
Bay
Indian
12
Community
in
upper
Michigan,
and
I
was
unaware
of
a
13
meeting
tomorrow,
which
is
why
I'm
here
today.

14
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Very
good.

15
MR.
MORRIS
J.
WILLIAMSON
(
Q­
LED
Systems):

16
Good
morning.
My
name
is
Morris
Williamson.
I'm
17
president
of
Q­
LED
Systems,
a
minority­
owned
18
business
out
of
Chicago,
Illinois,
and
we
do
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxii
19
organizational
development
systems,
change
20
processes,
quality
management,
basic
system
process
21
controls.

22
MR.
DAVID
OLCHAWA
(
DuPage
County
Department
of
23
Development
and
Environmental
Concerns):
My
name
24
is
Dave
Olchawa
representing
DuPage
County
Storm
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxiii
17
1
Water
Division
and
basically
do
a
lot
of
2
investigating
of
federal,
state
and
local
funding
3
for
grant
applications.

4
MS.
YULANDA
McCARTY­
HARRIS
(
City
of
Toledo):

5
Good
morning.
My
name
is
Yulanda
McCarty­
Harris.

6
I
am
the
Executive
Director
of
the
Affirmative
7
Action
Compliance
in
the
City
of
Toledo.
I'm
here
8
with
my
program
director,
Bob
Williams,
who
works
9
with
our
WPCLF
loans
on
our
EPA
Sitz
Creek
project
10
that
we
are
working
on
right
now.

11
MR.
JOSHUA
BUNKER
(
State
of
Minnesota):
Good
12
morning.
I'm
Joshua
Bunker
with
State
of
13
Minnesota's
Pollution
Control
Agency,
and
I
14
coordinate
the
management
of
our
federal
systems
15
group.

16
MR.
JOHN
FRENCH
(
SynergyOne
LLC):
Good
17
morning.
I'm
John
French
with
SynergyOne.
We
are
18
an
8A
firm.
We
are
involved
in
environmental
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxiv
19
engineering,
public
outreach.
We
do
regulatory
20
compliance
management
in
the
transportation,
OSHA
21
and
agricultural
area.

22
MS.
HEDY
M.
RATNER
(
Women's
Business
23
Development
Center
and
Federation
of
Women
24
Contractors):
I'm
Hedy
Ratner,
and
I'm
Director
of
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxv
18
1
the
Women's
Business
Development
Center,
an
2
organization
which
certifies
women
business
center
3
projects
and
supports
development
of
women­
owned
4
businesses,
and
I
represent
the
Federation
of
Women
5
Contractors
today.

6
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Are
you
out
of
Chicago?

7
MS.
RATNER:
Yes.

8
MS.
BETH
DORIA
(
Federation
of
Women
9
Contractors):
My
name
is
Beth
Doria.
I'm
10
Executive
Director
of
the
Federation
of
Women
11
Contractors.
We
are
a
Chicago­
based
organization,

12
membership
organization
made
up
of
over
a
hundred
13
women­
owned
and
controlled
contracting
and
14
contracting­
related
firms.

15
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Everybody
didn't
come
up
and
16
greet
us.
(
Laughter)
That's
all
right.
Almost
17
everybody.
You
may
wonder
why
I
take
the
time
to
18
do
that.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxvi
19
As
I
said
earlier,
you
never
know
who's
20
in
the
audience.
Hopefully,
also,
that
will
give
21
you
an
opportunity
to
network
with
other
small
22
businesses
like
yourselves
so
that
possibly
you
can
23
team
up
to
go
after
some
of
the
larger
work.
And
I
24
know,
as
we
talk
and
as
we
are
meeting
today,
we
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxvii
19
1
are
not
meeting
on
8A,
hub
zone,
service
disabled;

2
but
it's
always
good
to
know,
and
I
like
to
give
3
you
that
opportunity.

4
The
purpose
for
this
meeting
today,
is
5
to
go
over
the
proposed
rule
changes
to
our
MBE/
WBE
6
program.
As
I
mentioned
earlier
this
morning
as
we
7
got
started,
there's
primarily
two
ways
to
do
8
business
with
EPA,
directly
through
contracts,
what
9
we
use
the
contract
vehicle
and
we
look
for
8A,

10
woman­
owned,
hub
zone,
service
disabled,
or
11
indirectly,
which
is
why
we're
here
today,
through
12
our
grants.

13
At
EPA,
our
contract
budget
is
14
$
1.2
billion
annually.
My
grant
budget
is
four
15
times
that.
At
EPA,
our
grants
budget
is
16
approximately
$
4.2
billion
annually.
You
all
make
17
the
connection.
As
small
businesses,
I
always
say
18
money
is
green.
You
just
need
to
know
where
to
go
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxviii
19
to
find
it.
And
I'm
telling
you
that
there
are
20
other
ways
to
get
to
us,
if
not
directly,

21
indirectly,
through
the
grants
vehicle
mechanism,

22
as
we
give
moneys
out
to
states,
nonprofits,
trust
23
territories,
colleges
and
universities.
They
24
may
­­
they
don't
have
to
­­
make
sure
you
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xxxix
20
1
understand
what
I'm
saying.
They
don't
have
to
go
2
out
and
contract,
but
if
they
do,
and
if
they
go
3
out
and
buy
anything
in
one
of
four
categories
­­

4
equipment,
construction,
services
or
supplies
­­

5
this
program
kicks
in.
What
are
those
four
6
categories
again?
Help
me
out.

7
(
Chorus
of
equipment,
services,

8
construction
and
supplies.)

9
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.
I
think
we
got
it.

10
Equipment,
construction,
services
or
supplies.

11
Should
they
choose
to
go
out
and
contract,
and
that
12
is
any
of
our
grantees,
should
they
choose
to
go
13
out
and
contract,
this
program
kicks
in.
There
is
14
a
fair
share
clause
that
is
in
their
grant
where
15
they
will
have
negotiated
with
Sharon
and
this
16
region
here,
and
this
is
happening
all
over
the
17
country.
EPA
has
ten
regions,
and
I
have
ten
18
MBE/
WBE
coordinators,
and
then
I
have
some
other
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xl
19
folks
in
some
other
areas
that
are
helping
us
out,

20
as
well,
to
ensure
that
minorities
and
women
are
21
included
in
the
federal
assistance
process.
And
22
they
work
with
the
local
grantees
or
the
grantees
23
from
their
regions
­­

24
(
WHEREUPON,
Mr.
Rodney
Cotillier
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xli
21
1
entered
the
proceedings.)

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
­­
to
identify
who
minority
3
and
women­
owned
businesses
are.
They
negotiate
4
goals
with
them,
and
then
they
try
to
work
with
5
them
to
identify
who
you
are.

6
So
it
is
important.
Again,
money
is
7
green.
You
need
to
follow
the
dollars.
And
as
we
8
have
seen
with
this
administration,
as
well
as
the
9
prior
administration,
more
and
more
of
our
dollars
10
are
going
out
of
the
agency
in
the
vehicle
of
a
11
grant
rather
than
a
contract.
Not
to
say
you
can't
12
do
contracts
with
us,
but
you
need
to
know
where
13
the
money
is
being
spent.
And
so
for
the
purpose
14
of
the
meeting
today,
we
want
to
go
over
the
15
proposed
changes
that
we
are
proposing
to
our
16
program.
I
will
give
you
a
brief
history
on
how
we
17
got
to
this
point.

18
I
talked
earlier
about
the
proposed
­­
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
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Disparity
Study
1­
xlii
19
the
Draft
Proposed
Rule
and
the
comment
period
that
20
we
had
three,
four
years
ago.
And
what
that
21
process
has
led
to,
it
led
us
up
to
this,
but
the
22
catalyst
for
all
of
this
was
the
Supreme
Court
23
decision
that
came
as
a
result
of
the
Atarand
24
decision
out
of
the
state
of
Denver,
Colorado,
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xliii
22
1
where
there
was
a
challenge
by
a
nonminority
to
how
2
the
state
of
Colorado
was
spending
their
money
and
3
the
price
credits.
And
I'm
not
an
attorney.

4
That's
why
I
don't
leave
home
without
her.

5
(
Laughter)
She
can
go
into
more
details
and
give
6
you
all
the
legalistic
stuff,
but
as
a
result
of
7
that,
in
layman's
terms,
as
I
can
understand
it,
it
8
changed
how
the
fabric
of
the
federal
government
9
procurement
process
works.
And
now
we
have
to
base
10
­­
remember,
I
said
that
we
had
or
we
negotiate
11
goals
with
our
grantees
and
that's
in
their
grants?

12
In
the
past,
what
we
had
done
was,
we
just
13
automatically
put
an
8
percent,
which
was
what
was
14
identified
very
early
on
by
Congress,
and
we
used
15
that
8
percent
in
all
of
our
grants.
And
8
percent
16
was
identified
as
the
amount
or
the
percentage
that
17
our
grantees
should
use
in
utilization
of
18
minorities
and
women,
but
it
wasn't
based
on
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xliv
19
anything
that
we
could
readily
identify.

20
With
the
Atarand
decision,
it
says
that
21
we
have
to
do
more
than
that,
and
it
has
to
be
22
based
on
the
availability
of
minorities
and
women
23
in
a
geographic
location.
And
so
we
have
to
do
24
something.
We
can't
just
plug
in
a
number,
because
Mason
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Disparity
Study
1­
xlv
23
1
what
our
grantees
need
to
understand
is,
if
there
2
is
a
challenge
to
the
program,
if
there
is
a
3
challenge
to
what
we
are
doing
with
these
federal
4
funds,
we
will
have
to
defend
what
we
are
doing
and
5
the
grantees
will
have
to
defend
what
they
are
6
doing.
We
can't
do
that
if
we
don't
know
what
they
7
are
doing.
And
so,
as
grantees
­­
how
many
grant
8
recipients
do
we
have
this
morning?

9
(
There
was
a
show
of
hands.)

10
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
You
all
need
to
see
their
11
hands,
because
everybody
didn't
get
up.
Hold
them
12
up
high.
These
are
the
grant
recipients.
Thank
13
you.
These
are
the
grant
recipients.
And
they
are
14
accountable
for
what
they
do
with
the
funding
that
15
they
get
from
EPA.
And
so
as
we
have
seen
16
throughout
the
country,
there
are
many
­­
there
17
have
been
many
challenges
to
programs
similar
to
18
this.
While
this
program
has
not
been
challenged
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xlvi
19
to
the
extent
that
we
have
been
in
court
on
the
­­

20
what
is
it,
the
legal
term
that
I
am
looking
for,

21
legal
term?
They
didn't
challenge
our
­­

22
MS.
LYNN
DONLEY:
Standing?

23
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Standing.
Thank
you,
Lynn.

24
MS.
DONLEY:
You
were
supposed
to
be
Mason
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Associates,
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June
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xlvii
24
1
listening.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
The
programs
all
over
the
3
country,
because
you
look
at
race,
minority
and
4
gender.
We
talk
about
women.
Some
people
consider
5
this
an
affirmative
action
program.
We
do
not.
We
6
consider
this
an
outreach
program.
We
are
saying
7
that
everybody
should
be
afforded
an
opportunity
to
8
participate
in
the
process,
but
a
lot
of
the
DBEs
9
can't
do
that
if
they
don't
know
what
the
local
10
practices
are,
or
the
processes
are
that
are
being
11
used
and
utilized
by
our
grantees.

12
So,
here
again,
if
our
grantees
go
out
13
and
procure
anything
in
one
of
four
categories,
any
14
one
of
those
four
categories,
this
program
kicks
15
in.
And
then
the
goals
that
have
been
identified
16
that
they
have
negotiated
with
the
region
are
the
17
ones
that
we
hold
them
to.
We
use
availability
18
analysis
or
disparity
studies,
something
that
we
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
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Disparity
Study
1­
xlviii
19
have
never
used
before,
but
we
are
looking
at
those
20
kinds
of
things
now
to
justify
or
help
us
21
substantiate
how
we
come
up
with
the
goal
that
we
22
have
in
each
one
of
those
grants.
And
so
if
you
23
need
to
know
more
information
about
that,
you
can
24
talk
to
Sharon
Green,
because
she
is
the
negotiator
Mason
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Associates,
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Purposes
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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25
1
for
those
for
the
region.

2
Today
we
just
want
to
go
over
some
of
3
the
key
elements
of
the
proposed
rule.
We
have
4
changed
our
definition
of
DBE.
We
are
looking
at
5
certification
requirements,
personal
net
worth.
We
6
debate
efforts.
There
is
some
contract
7
requirements.
We
are
also
going
to
talk
about
fair
8
share
of
goal
setting.
We
have
a
provision
for
9
race
and
gender
conscious
efforts.
Then
we
have
10
some
exemptions
that
we
have
identified.

11
Let
me
just
say
this
on
the
record
now.

12
When
we
start
talking
about
exemptions,
we
are
13
looking
at
exempting
some
of
the
grantees
from
14
negotiations
­­
negotiations
only
­­
if
they
fall
15
into
certain
categories.
No
one
is
exempted
from
16
reporting.
Let
me
say
that
again.
No
one
is
17
exempted
from
reporting,
and
then
no
one
is
18
exempted
from
adhering
to
the
good
faith
efforts.
Mason
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Associates,
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June
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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19
Okay.

20
Now,
I
am
going
to
stop
and
allow
my
21
attorney
to
begin
the
process
of
going
over
what
we
22
have
identified
in
the
summary
of
the
proposed
23
element
in
our
EPA
DBE
rule.

24
Now,
if
you
have
any
questions
before
we
Mason
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Associates,
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June
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Disparity
Study
1­
li
26
1
go
any
further,
now
is
the
time
to
speak
up.

2
Yes,
sir.
I
need
you
to
go
to
the
mic
3
and
tell
us
who
you
are
and
your
company.

4
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
I'm
5
Lance
Stokes.
I'm
President
and
100
percent
6
shareholder
of
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.,
an
7
environmental
engineering
consulting
firm
based
out
8
Detroit,
Michigan.
We
have
15
employees.

9
My
question
is,
who
polices?
I
hear
you
10
say
you
negotiate,
and
we
are
talking
about
good
11
faith
with
the
recipients,
the
states.
And
I'm
out
12
of
Michigan,
so
I
have
a
lot
to
say
today,
and
my
13
question
is,
who
polices
the
states?

14
I
mean,
they
tell
you
that
they
are
15
making
a
good
faith
effort,
and
they
breeze
right
16
by,
and
I
will
tell
you
right
now,
African
17
Americans,
because
they
don't
think
we
think.
And
18
I
have
been
saying
this
for
ten
years.
And
nobody
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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19
has
done
anything.
And
Michigan
probably
leads
the
20
pack
in
getting
grants
for
brownfields
work,
and
21
unless,
and
here's
the
clicker,
in
Michigan
­­

22
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Uh­
huh.

23
MR.
STOKES:
­­
you
have
to
be
a
certified
24
professional
and
your
firm
has
to
be
a
qualified
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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27
1
consulting
firm.

2
My
firm
was
a
qualified
consulting
firm
3
and
I
was
a
certified
professional
until
1998
when
4
they
had
this
big
meeting
of
over
a
thousand
of
us.

5
And
we
went
to
this
meeting,
and
the
black
CPs
look
6
like
spots
on
a
white
sheet.
That
sheet
got
7
bleached.
I
was
thrown
out,
all
of
a
sudden.
Why?

8
Not
for
anything
I
had
done.
All
my
certified
9
closures
of
underground
storage
tanks,
all
of
my
10
closures
of
remediation
stand
firm,
solid
based
on
11
good
analytical
science.
Why
was
I
put
out?
"
Oh,

12
Dr.
Stokes,
we
are
sorry,
but
we
can't
confirm
that
13
you
really
did
this
work
ten
years
ago
because
your
14
client
is
dead."
Hello?
The
head
of
the
15
department,
we
were
under
A.
The
head
of
the
16
department
of
this
program
was
a
Michigan
State
17
trooper,
who
had
no
scientific
background.
So
­­

18
and
right
now
if
you
do
not
­­
and
there
are
no
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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19
black
certified
professionals
in
the
state
of
20
Michigan,
none,
zero,
zip
who
are
black
employees
21
for
the
state.

22
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.

23
MR.
STOKES:
And
they
will
tell
you,
there
are
24
no
black
certified
professionals.
There
is
one
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lv
28
1
black
qualified
consulting
company,
and
that
­­
and
2
they
have
a
white
certified
professional,
and
they
3
aren't
qualified,
because
their
choice
of
GM
and
GM
4
got
them
there,
period,
end
of
story.
So
how
does
5
this
get
policed?
Because
I'd
like
to
know.

6
I'd
like
to
take
you
back
to
Michigan
7
and
start
­­
let's
start
taking
a
look
at
Michigan.

8
Maybe
Governor
Jennifer
Granholm
won't
like
making
9
this,
but
the
polling
better
be
good.
But
after
10
all
these
years
with
England,
blacks
have
been
11
(
indicating)
out
of
the
environmental
business
12
unless
we're
hauling
dirt.

13
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.
Thank
you,
sir.

14
Let
me
try
to
respond
to
that
lengthy
15
question.
We
monitor
our
grants
and
we
have
a
16
process
in
place
by
which
we
are
to
do
that.
One
17
way,
in
particular,
is
through
the
reporting
that
18
we
get
back.
And
I
think
what
you
need
to
hear,
Mason
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Associates,
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June
2005
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lvi
19
because
we
have
heard
and
we
have
been
all
over
the
20
country,
we
do
hear
things
like
that.
We
think
we
21
put
some
opportunities
in
place
to
have
a
better
22
way
to
get
a
handle
on
some
of
the
things
that
are
23
happening.

24
Later
on
as
Kimberly
goes
through
this,
Mason
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Ltd.
June
2005
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Disparity
Study
1­
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29
1
you
will
hear
about
the
reports
that
our
grantees
2
are
going
to
have
to
be
required
to
give
back
to
3
us,
and
as
subcontractors,
the
reporting
mechanism
4
that
we
are
putting
in
place
so
that
you
can
report
5
back
to
us
what
it
is
that
you
actually
got.
I
6
think
that
is
one
way
we
can
do
that.

7
And
so
I
hear
what
you're
saying.
I'm
8
not
a
policeman,
but
we
are
asking
people
to
honor
9
the
terms
and
conditions
of
our
grants.
We
are
10
asking
people
to
carry
out
the
six
good
faith
11
efforts
of
the
affirmative
steps,
and
in
instances
12
where
­­
and
I
don't
know,
have
you
ever
been
in
13
contact
with
this
region
here
to
let
them
know
some
14
of
the
things
that
have
happened
to
you?

15
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
I
16
went
to
the
civil
rights
board
in
Michigan,
and
I
17
did
not
contact
anyone
­­

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
But
this
is
­­
Mason
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June
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Disparity
Study
1­
lviii
19
MR.
STOKES:
­­
here
in
Chicago.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
But
what
you
need
to
do
is,

21
you
need
to
see
who
our
grantees
are
to
make
sure
22
we
got
the
right
people.
We
are
not
going
to
go
on
23
a
hunt
to
find
people
where
it
is
not
related
to
24
what
it
is
that
we
do.
And
so
from
that
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Associates,
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June
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Disparity
Study
1­
lix
30
1
perspective,
and
we
can
talk
to
you
­­
I
can
talk
2
to
you
later
on
about
some
other
things
that
you
3
might
need
to
consider.
But,
again,
we
think
that
4
the
process,
as
we
are
proposing,
will
be
better,

5
but
I
need
to
hear
from
you.
But
I
need
to
get
6
through
that
so
you
can
hear
what
those
proposed
7
changes
are,
okay?

8
Sir.

9
MR.
R.
LEE
FIELDS
(
Robco
Industrial
Waste
10
Management,
Inc.):
My
name
is
Lee
Fields.
I'm
11
with
Robco
Industrial
Waste
Management.
We
are
12
environmental
engineers.
We
have
been
around
20
13
years,
so
I
am
not
new
to
the
method
of
getting
14
work
for
federal
EPA.

15
I
have
two
issues.
One
of
the
issues
is
16
not
just
here
with
EPA
but
across
the
board.

17
Contractors
bundle
contracts.
They
take
smaller
18
contracts
that
maybe
my
company
or
other
firms
here
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lx
19
can
bid
as
prime
and
they
bundle
them
all
together
20
in
larger
contracts.
And
I
don't
feel,
and
I
21
talked
with
other
people
here
in
your
organization,

22
there
is
no
teeth
in
your
language
to
enforce
these
23
minority
set­
aside
programs
or
goals.
A
company
24
can
come
in
and
say
we
made
a
good
faith
effort
and
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
lxi
31
1
that's
the
end
of
it.
They
don't
have
to
document
2
or
show
who
they
talked
to
or
dealt
with.

3
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
That's
not
true.

4
MR.
FIELDS:
And
so
I
think
if
you
look
at
5
your
language
and
see
whether
or
not
you
can
put
6
teeth
in
your
language
to
enforce,
because
you
got
7
a
lot
of
qualified
firms
who
just
stood
up
here
8
this
morning.
I
went
out
of
town.
I
work
42
9
percent
of
the
country
because
I
could
not
find
10
major
work
here
in
the
state
of
Illinois,
in
my
own
11
backyard.
And
that's
a
sad
commentary.
So
that's
12
the
only
way
I
could
survive.
I
think
we
need
to
13
open
up
the
contract
bidding
process
a
little
bit
14
more.

15
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Well,
I
invite
you
to
give
16
us
some
suggestions
on
how
to
do
that.

17
Ma'am.

18
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Yulanda
McCarty­
Harris
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxii
19
with
the
City
of
Toledo.
First
to
address
his
20
question,
I
think
he
said
he
could
get
certified
in
21
Michigan.
I
think
in
your
proposed
changes,
you
22
could
be
certified
through
EPA.

23
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
If
you
can't
get
certified
24
someplace
else.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxiii
32
1
MS.
YULANDA
McCARTY­
HARRIS
(
City
of
Toledo):

2
The
other
thing
is,
my
question
is,
if
we
receive
a
3
loan,
meaning
the
city
of
Toledo,
through
our
Ohio
4
state
EPA,
revolving
loan
fund
through
that,
are
we
5
under
the
proposed
changes
that
are
taking
place
6
right
now
general?

7
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.

8
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Because
of
the
grant
the
9
state
receives?

10
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
you
are.

11
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Thank
you.

12
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
sir.

13
MR.
RODNEY
COTILLIER
(
Absolute
Fortunate
14
Finds):
Yes,
I
am
Rodney
Cotillier.
I
am
the
15
project
executive,
Absolute
Fortunate
Finds,
out
of
16
Green
Bay,
Wisconsin.
Our
company
is
a
data
17
processing
minority
outreach
firm.

18
We
presently
have
a
contract
with
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxiv
19
Lambeau
Field
through
the
Packers
and
we
have
a
20
prime
with
the
Metropolitan
Sewer
District
of
Green
21
Bay.
They
have
hired
us
to
meet
these
goal
22
requirements.

23
The
fear
is
that
the
contractors
come
24
in,
they
do
the
six­
step
on
the
contract,
have
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxv
33
1
listed
down
what
minorities
they
are
going
to
use,

2
they
don't
meet
the
goal.
And
the
problem
is,
they
3
will
come
up
with
all
kind
of
excuses,
but
if
you
4
don't
have
sanctions.
At
least
the
Green
Bay
5
Packers'
football
stadium,
for
contractors,
we
6
don't
need
to
pull,
a
percentage
of
their
contract
7
are
removed
from
the
dollars.

8
We
need
to
have
something
that
is
going
9
to
hold
the
contractor
down.
He
meets
all
the
10
paperwork
for
the
bids,
he
gets
the
bids,
but
11
toward
the
end
of
the
project
he
doesn't
meet
the
12
goals.
That's
where
we
come
in.
We
help
you
to
13
find,
he
doesn't
want
to
hire
anybody.
There's
14
nothing
that
I
can
do,
and
there
is
no
way
that
the
15
EPA
is
going
to
go
back
on
the
contractor.
And
so
16
the
owner
of
the
Sewer
District
is
stuck,
so
we
17
need
to
have
some
type
of
sanctions
to
hold
the
18
contractors
accountable
to
meeting
those
goals,
or
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxvi
19
at
least
approve
without
question
they
went
through
20
the
six
fair
share
step
deal.

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you,
sir.

22
MR.
JESSE
ANZALDUA
(
Anzaldua
Mechanical,

23
Inc.):
Jesse
Anzaldua
with
Anzaldua
Mechanical.
I
24
have
a
couple
­­
just
one
question
and
the
other
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxvii
34
1
one
is
kind
of
a
comment.

2
If
we
contact
some
of
these
grant
3
providers
from
these
colleges,
they
would
be
the
4
ones
that
would
able
to
help
us
on
some
of
these
5
contract
things;
is
that
correct?
Or
help
them
6
structure
a
grant?

7
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
give
­­
that
$
4.2
billion
8
annually
we
give
out
all
across
the
country;

9
colleges,
states,
nonprofits,
local
municipalities,

10
tribes,
trust
territories,
et
cetera.
What
I
said
11
initially
is,
they
don't
have
to
go
out
and
12
contract.
They
can
go
choose
to
do
their
grant
13
with
resources
internally
using
those
funds
to
pay
14
salaries
of
their
employees.

15
If
they
don't
go
out
and
buy
anything
16
and
they
get
it
all
done
internally,
that's
their
17
choice.
But
the
minute
they
do
go
out
and
buy
18
anything
in
one
of
those
four
categories,
our
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxviii
19
program
kicks
in.
Now
­­
and
we
will
talk
to
you
20
of
how
you
can
identify
or
get
a
listing
of
who
all
21
of
our
grantees
are,
but
I
can't
guarantee
you
22
everybody
that's
on
that
list
is
going
to
contract
23
out.
That,
I
don't
know.

24
They
have
choices
that
they
have
to
make
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxix
35
1
in
terms
of
how
they
are
going
to
spend
that
money.

2
MR.
ANZALDUA:
The
second
part
is
talking
to
3
­­
listening
to
what
is
being
said
up
in
Michigan.

4
I
am
from
the
Kalamazoo
area.
A
lot
of
the
grants
5
for
brownfields
are
being
given
to
the
City.

6
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Uh­
huh.

7
MR.
ANZALDUA:
The
City
is
sort
of
taking
over
8
a
lot
of
property.
They
go
in
and
inspect
these
9
properties,
and
then
what
they
do
is,
they
declare
10
eminent
domain.
And
then
they
take
over
the
11
property
and
then
they
go
and
apply
for
a
grant
and
12
get
the
money.
All
I'm
saying,
does
the
EPA
or
any
13
government
agency
check
to
see
what's
happening
14
before
they
­­
before
they
provide
this
grant.

15
Obviously,
the
City
has
had
ownership
of
16
that
property
at
that
particular
time.
But
what
17
has
transpired
before,
I
am
in
a
building
right
now
18
that
that's
what
happening,
eminent
domain.
The
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxx
19
City
of
Kalamazoo
is
trying
to
take
it
over.

20
They
came
and
checked
the
property
21
before,
so
they
know
it's
a
brownfield.
So
that's
22
one
of
the
biggest
problems
we
have
with
23
brownfields
in
the
Kalamazoo
area.

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I'm
not
a
brownfields
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxi
36
1
expert.
I'm
familiar
with
some
of
the
program
2
managers
and
we
would
have
to
talk
to
them.
But
3
even
with
the
brownfield
program,
this
program
does
4
apply.
And
so
they
would
have
to
­­
and
I
would
5
assume
­­
to
meet
their
goals
in
cleaning
up
that
6
property,
they
would
have
to
look
for
­­
try
to
7
find,
go
through
those
six
steps
affirmative
steps
8
to
find
minority
DBEs
to
clean
up
the
area.

9
Sir.

10
MR.
JOHN
FRENCH
(
SynergyOne
LLC):
Good
11
morning.
John
French
with
SynergyOne.
We
are
from
12
Indianapolis,
Indiana.

13
I,
too,
would
like
to
express
my
concern
14
for
the
need
for
sanctions
to
be
put
into
the
15
language
of
this
rule.
It
is
necessary
for
the
16
accomplishment
of
any
program
effectiveness.

17
Without
it,
we
can
accomplish
very
little,
if
18
nothing,
in
my
opinion.
And
also
I
would
like
to
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxii
19
say
to
the
attendees,
is
that
when
the
notes
are
20
transcribed
from
this
meeting,
and
if
there
are
50
21
people
attending
and
only
three
have
said
there's
a
22
need
for
sanctions,
the
record
will
only
show
that
23
three
thought
that
there
need
to
be
sanctions.

24
So
if
you
feel
that
way,
it
is
not
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxiii
37
1
enough
for
you
to
feel
like
we
have
made
comments
2
and
you
don't
need
to
say
anything.
You
need
to
3
get
up
and
come
behind
me
and
make
a
statement
to
4
that
regard.
If
you
don't
feel
this
is
important,

5
then
proceed.

6
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you,
sir.

7
MS.
PATRICK:
We
are
going
to
take
your
8
comment.

9
MS.
KAY
SAUNDERS
(
Bellewether,
Ltd.):
Thank
10
you.

11
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Your
name
again.

12
MS.
SAUNDERS:
I'm
sorry.
Kay
Saunders
with
13
Bellewether.
One
piece
of
it
has
to
do
with
14
sanctions.
I
think
the
other
piece
has
to
do
with
15
policing,
but
my
question
was,
how
is
a
good
faith
16
effort
measured?
I
think
that
it
is
in
the
17
measurement
and
the
incentives
that
follow
the
18
measurements
that
people
voluntarily
comply.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxiv
19
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you.
We
will
get
into
20
that.

21
MS.
PATRICK:
Before
I
get
started
going
22
through
the
actual
rule,
there
are
a
couple
things
23
I
want
to
make
you
very,
very
clear
we
have
a
good
24
basis
to
start
off
with.
First
is
making
sure
you
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxv
38
1
understand
the
nature
of
our
program.
As
Jeanette
2
said,
our
program
only
kicks
in
on
the
grant
side
3
of
the
house.
So
when
you
make
a
comment
about
set
4
asides
and
things
like
that
­­

5
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
It
does
not
­­

6
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
it
does
not
apply
in
this
7
world,
in
this
side
of
the
world.
This
is
indirect
8
grants
type
of
­­

9
MR.
R.
LEE
FIELDS
(
Robco
Industrial
Waste
10
Management,
Inc.):
That
is
not
what
the
e­
mail
11
said,
though.
The
e­
mail
was
not
saying
this
was
12
directed
toward
a
certain
section
or
certain
13
agenda.
That's
not
what
the
e­
mail
that
I
received
14
said.
If
it
did,
I
would
not
be
here
this
morning,

15
because
my
clients
are
not
grant
people.

16
MS.
PATRICK:
I
know
that
your
clients
are
not
17
grant
recipients,
however,
some
of
the
work
you
do
18
occurs
under
people
who
have
received
the
grant
and
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxvi
19
go
out
and
contract.
You
have
to
understand
when
20
we
set
up
this,
this
program
happens
when
EPA
goes
21
out
and
makes
a
grant
list
in
the
state
of
Wyoming.

22
I
am
just
using
a
state
here.
Wyoming
goes
out
and
23
says,
"
Okay,
I
want
to
build
a
waste
water
24
treatment
plant."
Wyoming
does
not
have
people
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxvii
39
1
doing
that.
Wyoming
uses
EPA
grant
money
and
goes
2
out
and
contracts.

3
That's
where
you
come
in,
your
companies
4
come
in
and
getting
opportunities
using
EPA
money,

5
but
it
is
going
through
the
state.
And
so
that's
6
where
the
whole
­­
that
is
where
it
becomes
7
relevant
to
you.
That
is
where
things,
such
as
8
being
certified
as
a
minority­
owned
business
in
a
9
particular
area,
kicks
in
because
that
way
that
10
recipient
can
count
you
towards
their
goal.
Things
11
such
as
8A,
set
asides,
things
like
that,
do
not
12
apply
in
the
indirect
type
of
thing.
There
is
no
13
such
thing
on
the
indirect
side
of
the
house
as
a
14
set
aside.

15
This
is
­­
we
walk
a
very
fine
line
16
between
having
a
goal
and
a
quota.
Goals
are
17
great.
The
minute
you
say
quota,
we
have
a
18
problem.
Then
you
become
a
program
that
is
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxviii
19
completely
defenseless.
Once
we
start
having
20
quotas,
we
don't
have
a
program
anymore
because
the
21
lawyers
come,
the
ones
that
are
not
friendly
22
towards
us,
the
ones
who
want
affirmative
action
to
23
go
away
completely.
And
so
what
we
have
in
this
24
rule
is
constructed
something
that
walks
that
fine
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
lxxix
40
1
line,
as
best
we
can,
with
keeping
the
program
also
2
legally
defensible.
Because
if
you
go
away,
you
3
have
nothing
on
the
grant
side
of
the
house
if
you
4
tell
people
to
use
minority,
women­
owned
5
businesses.

6
MR.
LESTER
LEWIS
(
Paradigm
2000,
Inc.):
Are
7
you
going
to
supply
us
a
list
of
grantees?

8
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
will
tell
you
how
to
get
9
to
who
our
grantees
are.

10
MS.
PATRICK:
EPA's
list
of
grantees
is
public
11
knowledge.

12
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
will
tell
you
how
to
get
13
that.

14
MR.
LEWIS:
It's
on
the
website?

15
MS.
PATRICK:
It's
on
the
website.
You
can
go
16
in
and
search
and
find
out
how
much
they
got,
what
17
the
projects
are
for.
All
of
that
is
completely
18
public
knowledge.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxx
19
MS.
DONLEY:
Pam,
would
you
specifically
20
address
the
concerns
that
have
been
mentioned
21
regarding
policing
and
sanctions.

22
MS.
PATRICK:
That
comes
in
with
the
entire
23
fine
line
we
walk
between
a
quota
and
goal,
pretty
24
much
where
the
program
works.
You
have
to
look
at
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxi
41
1
the
nature
of
the
grant
in
and
of
itself
and
how
2
it's
distinct
from
the
contract.
With
a
contract,

3
EPA
is
getting
services
that
directly
benefit
the
4
agency,
benefits
us
a
hundred
percent.

5
With
a
grant,
EPA
is
sort
of
extending
6
its
arm,
whereas
we
give
out
money.
It
doesn't
7
necessarily
directly
impact
or
affect
or
benefit
8
EPA,
but
it
benefits
the
person
that
we're
giving
9
the
monies
to.
And
because
we
are
doing
that,
once
10
we
give
that
money
out
to
these
recipients,
whether
11
it
be
a
state,
municipality,
a
tribe,
what
have
12
you,
their
individual
procurement
practices
step
13
in.
Because
once
we
give
that
money
to
them,
we
14
lose
a
certain
amount
of
control
that
we
would
have
15
if
we're
dealing
with
a
contract.

16
We
don't
have
that
with
a
grant.
And
so
17
to
the
extent
that
we
can
compel
them
or
require
18
them
to
do
good
faith
efforts,
we
can
require
them
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxii
19
to
report,
but
when
it
comes
to
going
beyond
that
20
availability
with
their
individual
state
21
procurement
practices,
we
are
limited
in
the
things
22
we
can
do
and
say
in
terms
of
policing.
What
we
23
can
do
is
enforce
the
things
that
are
required
and
24
the
terms
and
conditions
of
that
grant
agreement.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxiii
42
1
Beyond
that,
to
be
honest,
we
do
lose
some
teeth.

2
And
what
we've
constructed
with
this
new
rule
are
3
things
that
give
us
more
teeth
than
we
had
before
4
so
we're
not
gumming
it.
But
at
the
same
time,
we
5
don't
have
the
vice
grip
of
a
rottweiler,
either.

6
There
is
a
very
delicate
thing
that
we
do
with
it.

7
Our
terms
of
policing
it,
when
we
go
out
8
and
do
grant
reviews,
we
want
to
see
in
that
grant
9
file
the
documentation
showing
the
steps
you
took.

10
We
talk
about
lists.
One
of
the
things
that
is
in
11
the
new
rules,
it
requires
a
bidders
list
so
we
can
12
see
who
you've
gone
out
and
talked
to.
When
we
13
find
deficiencies,
then
we
can
come
back
to
the
14
grantee,
the
recipient,
and
apply
pressure.

15
Because
the
recipient
level's
where
their
16
procurement
practices
kick
in.
So
do
we
­­

17
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Can
you
use
the
mic
if
you
18
have
a
question.
We
really
do
need
you
to
do
that.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxiv
19
MS.
PATRICK:
In
terms
of
a
starting
point.

20
MR.
LESTER
LEWIS:
Okay.
Lester
­­

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Before
you
do
that,
you
have
22
to
say
who
you
are.

23
MR.
LEWIS:
Lester
Lewis,
Paradigm
2000
out
of
24
Detroit.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxv
43
1
Now,
let's
go
to
the
other
side,
how
to
2
deal
directly
with
you
and
beside
the
grant.
I'm
3
going
to
come
directly
to
you
­­

4
MS.
PATRICK:
Direct
contract.

5
MR.
LEWIS:
­­
and
present
you
with
a
proposal
6
that
you
need
to
serve
you.

7
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
That
opens
­­
that's
8
another
entire
session
all
on
to
itself.
Trust
me,

9
when
we're
talking
about
different
worlds,
I
mean
10
they're
different
worlds.
Another
whole
set
of
11
rules
come
into
play.
You
get
into
set­
aside
12
agreements,
you
get
into
different
things
that
are,

13
more
directly
EPA
can
do
within
its
control
to
14
monitor
its
contract.
It
is
a
completely
different
15
world.

16
What
we're
talking
about
here
today
has
17
to
do
with
this
proposed
rule
that
deals
with
this
18
EPA
procurement
under
grants.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxvi
19
MR.
LEWIS:
Okay.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay?
For
those
of
you
who
21
may
have
wanted
to
find
out
how
to
do
business
22
directly
with
EPA,
bear
with
us.

23
MR.
LEWIS:
Okay.

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Let
us
get
through
this
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxvii
44
1
process
and
go
through
this
portion
of
the
hearing,

2
and
what
I
will
do
is,
after
we
complete
that,
I
3
can
talk
to
you
about
how
to
do
business
with
EPA
4
directly
on
the
contract
side.
Is
that
fair
5
enough?

6
(
Chorus
of
"
that's
fair.")

7
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Now,
I
don't
know
what
I've
8
done
to
our
schedule
for
today,
Sharon,
but
because
9
they
are
here,
I
want
to
do
that.
Okay?
So
we
10
will
have
to
make
some
adjustments.
Okay?

11
MS.
PATRICK:
A
lot
of
these
things
we
are
12
about
to
go
over
are
quick
things.

13
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
may
have
to
­­
right,
we
14
can
move.
So
we
want
to
give
everybody
an
15
opportunity
to
ask
questions
to
make
sure
they
16
understand,
but
I'll
also
tell
you
how
to
do
17
business
with
us
directly.
Is
that
fair
enough?

18
(
Chorus
of
yeses.)
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxviii
19
MS.
PATRICK:
We
are
going
to
make
sure
we
20
have
time
to
do
that,
so
let's
move.

21
The
first
thing,
pretty
basic.
In
your
22
packets
you
should
have,
if
I'm
correct,
a
copy
of
23
the
summary
of
the
major
elements
of
the
proposed
24
rule.
We
are
not
going
to
go
through
this
entire
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
lxxxix
45
1
document.
I
don't
want
you
to
fall
asleep
on
me.

2
So
we
condensed
it
into
something
smaller
that
hit
3
the
key
points
and
outlines
the
major
changes
in
4
how
we're
going
to
operate.
So
if
you'd
take
that
5
out
and
follow
along
with
me,
it
is
what
I
am
6
using.

7
I
am
going
to
try
not
to
read
to
you.

8
It
is
a
personal
irritation
of
mine
to
read
when
9
they
have
something
in
front
of
them.
Just
to
move
10
quickly
with
this,
please
follow
along,
okay?
And
11
please
stop
me
if
you
have
questions
as
we're
going
12
along.
Go
to
the
mic
and
we
will
stop
and
we
will
13
ask
questions,
that
we
can
answer
them,
and
also
14
give
you
the
public
comment
because
that
is
really
15
what
we
are
here
about,
to
hear
from
you
about
16
comments
on
this
rule.

17
The
first
major
change
is
the
change
in
18
name.
We
are
no
longer
going
to
be
the
MBE/
WBE
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xc
19
program,
or
some
of
you
may
have
heard
20
"
meebee­
weebee."
We
are
now
going
to
be
the
21
"
deebee."
(
Laughter)
We're
going
to
be
the
DBE
22
program,
which
is
the
disadvantaged
business
23
enterprise
program.
We
changed
the
name
primarily
24
for
consistency.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xci
46
1
At
this
point,
DOT's
program
is
a
DBE
2
program,
and
it's
a
very
big
program
much,
much
3
larger
than
ours,
but
people
recognize
the
name
4
DBE,
so
we
are
doing
that
to
give
some
consistency
5
across
the
federal
government.
A
lot
of
times
6
we're
looking
for
consistencies
from
the
different
7
agencies.
And
we
are
trying
to
make
this
as
simple
8
as
possible
for
people.
That
name,
DBE,
is
going
9
to
include
all
of
the
categories
WBE/
MBE
once
10
covered.
So
we
are
going
to
one
name.
Okay?

11
The
next
major
thing
that
will
affect
12
you
as
a
business
owner
is
the
certification
that
13
we
are
going
to
require.
In
the
past,
EPA
allowed
14
the
DBEs
to
be
self
certified
under
our
indirect
15
program.
That
day
is
long
gone.

16
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Once
this
rule
is
final.

17
MS.
PATRICK:
Once
the
rule
is
final.
Let
me
18
make
that
very
clear.
Until
the
rule
goes
final,
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xcii
19
you
can
still
self
certify.
But
once
this
goes
20
final,
we
need
something
more
than
you
just
saying
21
"
Hi,
I'm
a
minority."
Pretty
much
right
now
that's
22
all
you
need
to
do.

23
Once
this
goes
final,
we
are
going
to
24
need
some
documentation.
We
are
going
to
look
at
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xciii
47
1
ownership
and
control.
We
are
going
to
take
a
much
2
deeper
look
at
what's
going
on
and
certify
this
to
3
that
extent.
Because
­­
yes,
sir.

4
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
need
you
to
go
to
the
mic.

5
MR.
JESSE
ANZALDUA
(
Anzaldua
Mechanical,

6
Inc.):
I
want
to
go
back
to
A.
What
is
SBRA?
You
7
said
that
this
is
new.
What
is
that?

8
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
business
in
rural
areas.

9
MR.
ANZALDUA:
Oh,
rural
areas.

10
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
correct.

11
MR.
ANZALDUA:
Okay,
thanks.

12
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
Back
to
certification.

13
Where
was
I?

14
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
The
next
one
is
recognizing
15
the
certifications
of
­­

16
MS.
PATRICK:
One
of
the
things
we
are
going
17
to
­­

18
MR.
RODNEY
COTILLIER
(
Absolute
Fortunate
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xciv
19
Finds):
Very
quickly.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Name.

21
MR.
COTILLIER:
Will
these
changes
­­

22
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
She
needs
to
capture
who
you
23
are
in
the
question.

24
MR.
COTILLIER:
Rodney
Cotillier,
Absolute
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xcv
48
1
Fortunate
Finds.
Will
these
changes
affect
2
contracts
that
are
already
in
place
now?

3
MS.
PATRICK:
No.

4
MR.
COTILLIER:
So
this
will
be
future
5
contracts?

6
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
Usually,
it
is
when
this
7
rule
goes
into
effect,
which
we
will
tell
you
about
8
that
what
we're
looking
at
in
terms
of
time
frame.

9
With
the
certification
portion,
because
10
EPA
does
not
have
a
vehicle
and
probably
not
the
11
inclination
to
go
into
the
certification
business,

12
we
decided
that
we
are
going
to
accept
SBA
13
certification,
and
we're
also
going
to
accept
DOT
14
certification
as
long
as
EPA's
citizenship
15
requirement
is
met.
That's
very
key
to
the
16
business
owner,
so
that
you're
not
going
out
and
17
getting
more
certifications
and
going
through
more
18
process
than
you
need
to
go
through.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xcvi
19
If
you
already
hold
an
SBA
certification
20
and
DOT
certification,
you
have
a
U.
S.
citizenship
21
requirement,
then
what
you
need
to
do
is
show
us
22
proof
of
that
certification,
and,
in
turn,
we
will
23
certify
you.
No
further
probing,
no
further
24
questions
asked.
Because
SBA
is
a
certification
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xcvii
49
1
business
and
our
standards
are
pretty
much
the
same
2
as
theirs.

3
Yes,
sir.

4
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
Lance
5
Stokes,
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.,
out
of
Detroit,

6
Michigan.
We
are
environmental
engineers
and
7
consultants
and
we
are
certified
8A.
Regarding
8
that,
my
comment
is,
listening
to
this
gentleman,

9
he
is
very
correct,
yes,
we
need
to
state
our
10
opinions
here.
And
my
opinion
is
that
I
do
not
11
recommend
that
EPA
do
certification,
because
why
12
reinvent
the
wheel?
As
a
matter
of
fact,
those
13
resources
could
be
utilized
to
do
some
of
that
14
necessary
policing
and
other
things.

15
So
I
would
recommend
that
certification
16
be
left
to
other
government
agencies,
such
as
SBA
17
in
the
8A,
or
DOT.

18
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
let
me
finish
and
I
will
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xcviii
19
explain,
and
you
will
get
a
picture
why
we
have
to,

20
in
some
circumstances.

21
Along
with
SBA
and
DOT
certifications
22
we're
also
accepting
state,
locality,
residential,

23
municipality
and
tribal
certifications,
as
long
as
24
their
standards
are
the
same
as
ours.
Okay.
That
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
xcix
50
1
will
also
reduce
the
number
of
certifications
EPA
2
would
have
to
do
itself
as
a
matter
of
first
3
impression.

4
Now,
EPA's
program
has
some
things
that
5
are
unique
about
it.
They
are
different
from
DOT
6
and
they
are
different
from
SBA.
Currently,
SBA
7
does
not
certify
women,
but
DOT
does.
So
to
the
8
extent
that
there
are
women­
owned
businesses
out
9
there
that
do
not
have
a
DOT
certification,
EPA
10
will
have
to
certify
those
women­
owned
businesses,

11
because
we
look
at
women­
owned
businesses
as
part
12
of
our
program.
Now,
the
SBA
certification
for
13
women­
owned
businesses
is
something
in
the
works
14
and
something
that
you
heard
is
coming,
they
are
15
going
to
end
up
doing,
but
for
right
now,
we
would
16
have
to
certify
that
group,
because
SBA
does
not.

17
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
that's
been
on
the
books
18
for
SBA
for
at
least
two
to
three
years,
and
I
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
c
19
understand
most
recently
they
were,
when
the
20
services,
disabled
veterans
got
their
new
program,

21
which
was
a
couple
weeks
ago,
right
before
22
Christmas,
the
women­
owned
business
had
to
go
back
23
to
the
drawing
board
on
some
of
the
statistics
and
24
the
numbers.
So
we
don't
know
when
that
is
going
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ci
51
1
to
come.
And
when
we
started
this
process,
SBA
was
2
not
certifying
women
at
all.

3
Yes,
ma'am.

4
MS.
HEDY
M.
RATNER
(
Women's
Business
5
Development
Center
and
Federation
of
Women
6
Contractors):
Hedy
Ratner
with
the
Women's
7
Business
Development
Center.
May
I
propose
that
8
instead
of
the
EPA
getting
into
certification,
and
9
I
would
agree
with
the
gentleman
who
spoke
before,

10
which
is
not
your
area
of
expertise.
It
is
much
11
easier
to
use
third­
party
certifiers
who
already
12
have
established
credibility
at
the
federal
level,

13
such
as
with
minorities
in
the
national
­­
National
14
Minority
Supply
Development
Council,
but
for
Women
15
Business
Enterprise,
there
is
a
national
certifying
16
council
for
the
women's
business
with
partnership
17
sites
all
over
the
country
that
could
certify
WBEs
18
and
it
could
be
utilized
by
the
EPA.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cii
19
MS.
PATRICK:
At
this
point
we
do
have
in
20
works
some
language
in
the
proposed
rule,
an
option
21
for
EPA
to
use
private
certifiers,
as
well.
And
22
once
we
get
started,
because
we
don't
know
what
the
23
volume
is
going
to
be
like
for
us,
we
didn't
want
24
to
take
away
that
option
for
us.
And
we
didn't
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
ciii
52
1
want
to
build
it
in
as
a
fact
we
are
going
to
do.

2
We
wanted
to
wait
and
see
what
the
volume
was
like,

3
what
the
flow
was
like
before
we
made
a
decision
as
4
to
whether
or
not
we're
going
to
take
private
5
certifiers
or
whether
or
not
we
are
going
to
6
continue
to
do
the
program
in­
house.

7
What
we
are
going
to
do
with
that
is
8
something
that
is
still
up
in
the
air
and
pretty
9
much
in
the
future.
Aside
from
the
women­
owned
10
businesses
and
disabled,
service
disabled
11
veteran­
owned
businesses,
there's
two
categories,

12
so
EPA
is
unique
in
certifying
like
that.
EPA
has
13
a
very
unique
certifying
­­
sorry,
very
unique
14
statute,
in
that
in
our
8
percent
statute,
the
15
standard
is
the
business
must
be
owned
or
16
controlled.
In
our
10
percent
statute,
it
is
owned
17
and
controlled.

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
But
we
have
both.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
civ
19
MS.
PATRICK:
We
have
both.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Yes.
We,
EPA,
in
our
21
statutes,
we
have
one
statute
that
says
"
and/
or"

22
and
one
statute
that
says
­­

23
MS.
PATRICK:
We
have
one
statute
that
says
24
"
or."
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Discussion
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Disparity
Study
1­
cv
53
1
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
one
statute
that
says
2
"
and."

3
MS.
PATRICK:
And
one
statute
that
says
"
and."

4
I
don't
know
what
anyone
was
thinking
not
making
5
the
two
the
same,
but
this
is
what
we
are
left
6
with,
because
we
can't
go
back
and
change
the
7
statute.
We
have
no
choice
but
to
certify
8
businesses
that
are
owned
or
controlled.
SBA
9
doesn't
do
that.
DOT
doesn't
do
that.
EPA
does.

10
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
But
our
statute
does.

11
MS.
PATRICK:
So
even
­­
we
try
to
find
every
12
way
to
get
ourselves
out
of
the
certification
13
business,
trust
me.
Because
that's
just
­­
that's
14
another
whole
can
of
worms
we'd
rather
not
open.

15
However,
because
of
the
uniqueness
of
our
program,

16
even
if
we
do
the
third­
party
certifiers,
no
one
is
17
certifying
owned
or
controlled,
and
so
there
is
a
18
number
of
other
categories
where
we
know
that
as
a
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cvi
19
matter
of
first
impression
because
we're
EPA,
we're
20
going
to
have
to
certify
those
entities
to
be
a
21
part
of
our
program.

22
Sir,
did
you
have
­­

23
MR.
SYL
SAFFOLD
(
Jacob
Business
Resources):

24
Yes.
My
name
is
Syl
Saffold
and
I'm
from
Jacob
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
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1­
cvii
54
1
Business
Resources.
And
my
comment
is
in
reference
2
to
a
lot
of
the
talk
regarding
the
teeth
and
3
enforcement,
and
I
think
in
terms
of
that
type
of
4
enforcement,
you
already
commented,
that
it's
5
probably
not
in
the
EPA's
power
legally
to
enforce
6
with
pit
bull
grip,
but
my
suggestion
is
this:
Is
7
these
public
hearings
and
things
like
that
are
good
8
for
individuals
who
may
already
be
acquainted
with
9
the
EPA
or
other
federally,
you
know,
other
things
10
like
that,
but
my
suggestion
is
that
you
get
a
11
firm,
like
Jacob
Business
Resources
(
laughter),
to
12
go
into
the
South
Side
­­
we
are
a
South
Side
13
business
­­
to
actually
penetrate
that
market.

14
Chicago
has
a
wealth
of
minority­
owned,

15
women­
owned
businesses.
Actually
do
some
programs
16
that
actually
penetrate
these
areas
where
these
17
businesses
are
and
open
this
up
and
bring
more
18
qualified
businesses
into
the
fold
whether
its
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cviii
19
being
certified
by
DOT
or
some
other
certification.

20
And
then
once
you
have
that
pool
of
qualified
21
businesses,
then
these
grantees
can
no
longer
say
22
there
are
not
people
available,
you
know.
You
can
23
actually
document
efforts
EPA
has
done
to
actually,

24
you
know,
increase
the
number
of
qualified
firms
Mason
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Associates,
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June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cix
55
1
able
to
be
subcontractors.

2
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

3
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Sir.

4
MR.
LESTER
LEWIS
(
Paradigm
2000,
Inc.):

5
Lester
Lewis,
Paradigm
2000
out
of
Detroit.
The
6
certifications,
they're
full
of
­­
Wayne
County,

7
the
certifier
says
I'm
a
minority.
The
state
of
8
Michigan,
the
certifier
says
I'm
a
minority.

9
Detroit,
Michigan,
the
city
certifies
us
as
a
10
minority.
We
have
got
to
have
all
these
11
certifications
prior
to
us
getting
awarded
to
12
anything.

13
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Uh­
huh.

14
MR.
LEWIS:
So
now
you
say
­­
and
you
said
it
15
was
a
hundred
­­
you
had
to
be
a
hundred
percent
16
owned?

17
MS.
PATRICK:
51
percent.

18
MR.
LEWIS:
51
percent.
When
I
got
my
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
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June
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cx
19
disadvantaged
certification,
I
had
to
be
100
20
percent
owner.
Okay.
It's
already
there.
All
21
right.
I
don't
­­
I
mean
­­
and
so
now
for
me
to
22
present
my
certifications
to
you,
my
question
would
23
be,
which
one
do
you
want?
(
Laughter)

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
My
response
is,
which
one
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxi
56
1
meets
our
standards.

2
MR.
LEWIS:
Then
let
me
say
this,
you
gave
me
3
two
criterias.
Where
would
I
find
the
criteria?

4
Because
I
have
got
a
handful
of
them.
I've
got
a
5
handful
of
certifications.

6
MS.
PATRICK:
Once
this
rule
goes
final,

7
you'll
get
another
document
looking
pretty
much
8
like
this,
but
instead
of
staying
"
proposed"
on
the
9
front,
it
will
say
"
final."

10
MR.
LEWIS:
Okay.

11
MS.
PATRICK:
Every
criteria
you
need
to
know
12
is
in
here.
Now,
what
I
would
suggest
to
you
is,

13
you
pick
your
certification
that
matches
what
we
14
have
in
here,
you
send
it
to
us,
then
you're
done.

15
Okay.

16
MR.
LEWIS:
Thank
you.

17
MS.
YULANDA
McCARTY­
HARRIS
(
City
of
Toledo):

18
Before
you
move
on,
can
you
tell
me,
as
an
Mason
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Associates,
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June
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Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxii
19
attorney,
and
I
am
an
attorney
myself,
how
does
the
20
new
decision
that
came
out
of
Colorado
affect
the
21
Atarand
decision?
Or
have
you
even
taken
that
into
22
consideration
in
your
proposed
changes?

23
MS.
PATRICK:
What
new
decision
out
of
24
Colorado?
Mason
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Associates,
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Disparity
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1­
cxiii
57
1
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
It
came
down
probably
2
about
in
September,
October
of
2003.
It's
a
3
Colorado
decision
in
which
the
Supreme
Court
­­

4
basically,
you
got
the
same
type
of
facts.
You
had
5
a
company
out
of
Colorado
that
was
not
6
minority­
owned.
It
challenged
the
system,
and
the
7
Supreme
Court
basically
refused
to
hear
the
8
decision.

9
Well,
some
critics
were
saying,
well,

10
the
fact
that
the
Supreme
Court
refused
to
hear
it
11
draws
question
on
whether
or
not
the
Atarand
12
decision
is
as
teeth­
biting
as
we
are
taking
it
to
13
be.
So
have
you
taken
it
into
consideration
in
14
those
proposed
changes?

15
MS.
PATRICK:
To
the
extent
that
the
court
16
decided
not
to
hear
it,
we
took
that
to
be
17
affirmative.
There
are
two
ways
you
take
that.
If
18
the
court
refused
to
hear
it,
you
could
say,
well,
Mason
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1­
cxiv
19
maybe
Atarand
doesn't
have
the
teeth
it
has
or
you
20
could
say
the
court
is
standing
on
its
decision
in
21
Atarand.
So
that
is
the
way
we
took
it
and
moved
22
forward.

23
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Well,
the
Colorado
goals
24
still
stand
in
which
they
use
their
goals
to
Mason
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1­
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58
1
basically,
and
I
think
they
probably
just
had
2
availability
of
knowledge
to
basically
satisfy
3
their
goals.
They
didn't
have
the
references,
but
4
they
did
have
their
goals,
and
their
program
is
5
still
standing
today.

6
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
so
we
take
that
as,
we
7
have
to
still
adhere
by
what
the
Atarand
decision
8
made
for,
or
meant
to,
the
federal
government.

9
That's
why
we
have
these
changes,
and
because
they
10
were
solid
or
didn't
look
at
that,
we
are
still
11
looking
at
those.

12
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Traditionally,
you
say
13
that
the
DBE
that
you
adopted
is
basically
for
14
consistency
basis.
Now,
there
are
some
people
that
15
say
the
DBE
is
not
because
of
consistency
but
to
16
bring
those
that
are
not
minorities
into
the
fold.

17
MS.
PATRICK:
That
is
also
true.
I
can't
deny
18
that.
Because
when
we
look
at
­­
the
things
we
Mason
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June
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cxvi
19
base
it
on
to
look
at
to
determine
economic
20
disadvantage,
the
disadvantaged
status,
race
is
21
just
one
of
the
things
that
we
have
to
look
at.
At
22
this
point
if
someone
who
is
a
nonminority
came
in
23
and
can
show
us
things
that
lead
up
to
economic
24
disadvantage,
we
can't
deny
them
access
to
the
Mason
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1­
cxvii
59
1
program.
So
you
are
exactly
right.
I
can't
deny
2
it.

3
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
I
can
say,
I
know
out
of
4
the
8A
program,
on
the
other
side,
you
do
have
5
people
from
Appalachia
and
some
other
places
who
6
are
not
minorities,
but
because
of
their
7
socioeconomic
status,
they
have
acquired
8A
status
8
or
maybe
determined
to
be
or
certified
as
9
disadvantaged.

10
Sir.

11
MR.
R.
LEE
FIELDS
(
Robco
Industrial
Waste
12
Management,
Inc.):
Lee
Fields,
Robco
Industrial
13
Waste
Management,
environmental
engineers.
My
14
question
is,
in
the
State
of
Illinois,
if
you
want
15
to
do
state
business,
you
have
got
to
be
certified
16
by
the
state.
If
you
want
to
do
city
business,
you
17
got
to
be
certified
by
the
city.
If
you
want
to
do
18
county
business,
you
got
to
be
certified
by
the
Mason
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Client
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Disparity
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1­
cxviii
19
county.
Federal,
SBA.
Now
you're
saying
there's
20
another
certification
with
EPA.

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Possibly.

22
MR.
FIELDS:
Possibly
another
certification.

23
What
does
it
possibly
mean
to
be
certified
with
the
24
EPA
after
all
these
other
redundant
certifications?
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxix
60
1
It
seems
as
though
the
minority
businesses
are
2
placed
under
a
microscopic
review.
And
I
would
3
like
to
see
this
microscopic
review
placed
on
your
4
primes
to
see
what
they're
doing,
what
are
their
5
good
faith
efforts,
because
this
is
about
6
relationship
building.
I
can
be
certified
with
7
everybody
in
the
world,
but
unless
I
put
a
8
relationship
with
people
who
get
your
money,
they
9
are
never
going
to
call
me,
right?
So
what
does
it
10
mean
­­
what's
my
incentive
to
be
certified
by
the
11
EPA?

12
MS.
PATRICK:
There
are
a
number
of
answers
to
13
that
question.
First
of
all,
having
you
all
14
certified
continues
to
make
our
program
legally
15
defensible.

16
Imagine
­­
let
us
look
at
the
flip
side
17
of
that.
Imagine
if
we
didn't
certify
and
right
18
now
you
are
whoever
you
say
you
are.
That
means
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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for
Discussion
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Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxx
19
someone
who
is
looking
to
be
dishonest
can
very
20
easily
take
opportunities
and
directly
away
from
21
you
as
a
minority­
women
owned
business.
Because
if
22
we
have
nothing
to
substantiate
that
you
are
who
23
you
say
you
are,
that
means
that
all
the
things
24
that
are
there
for
you,
are
completely
open,
anyone
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxxi
61
1
who
wants
to
lie
about
it,
because
if
you
don't
go
2
behind
and
ask
any
other
questions,
can
be
self
3
certified.

4
So
it
serves
a
dual
purpose.
It
keeps
5
us
legally
defensible
and
keeps
things
that
are
for
6
you,
programs
that
help
you
directly
related
to
7
you,
so
that
you
get
what
you
are
supposed
to
get
8
in
terms
of
this
program.

9
I
understand
the
part
of
resources
and
10
the
part
of
using
that
to
go
out
and
add
more
teeth
11
to
our
program.
In
terms
of
the
EPA,
we
are
12
working
very
hard
to
put
MBE
­­
I'm
sorry,
it
will
13
be
DBE,
MBE/
WBE
on
the
forefront
of
things
that
go
14
out
and
these
reviews
are
done
for
grants'

15
oversight
management.
We
are
working
very
hard
to
16
educate
not
only
our
grant
specialists,
but
our
17
program
people.
We
are
doing
a
lot
internally
that
18
you
don't
see
to
make
sure
that
these
things
are
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxxii
19
looked
at
when
things
are
done.
We
take
it
very
20
seriously
when
people
abuse
it.
We
don't
like
it
21
any
more
than
you
do,
but
we
are
working
with
what
22
we
have
to
make
it
as
effective
as
possible.

23
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
The
other
part
that
I
will
24
add,
sir,
it's
a
business
decision,
and
if
you
are
Mason
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June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
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1­
cxxiii
62
1
a
business
owner,
that
is
something
you
would
have
2
to
make.
We
thought
when
we
went
into
this,
if
we
3
were
to
accept
the
DOT
certification,
except
where
4
­­
when
you
look
at
the
citizenship
requirement
or
5
the
SBA
certification,
that
we
would
not
have
to
6
certify
as
many
businesses,
because
many
of
you
7
already
have
that.
But
we
recognize
and
8
understand,
as
we
have
travelled
all
over
the
9
country,
a
lot
of
businesses
have
decided
not
even
10
to
be
certified
by
SBA
or
DOT
and
so
some
of
those
11
businesses
may
very
well
want
to
come
to
us
from
12
some
of
these
local
areas
where
­­
we
just
left
13
Montana,
Billings,
Montana.
Anybody
been
there?

14
FROM
THE
FLOOR:
Sure.

15
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
So
you
know
what's
there.

16
Not
a
whole
lot.
But
there
are
businesses
that
are
17
there
that
many
of
them
didn't
have
a
clue
where
18
SBA
was
and
what
they
did,
but
they
were
out
there
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxxiv
19
doing
work.
There
may
very
well
may
be
able
to
or
20
want
to
come
get
some
of
this
EPA
work
from
some
of
21
our
grantees.
They
may
have
not
acquired
it.

22
Our
first
choice
is
to
have
you
be
23
certified
by
one
of
them,
because
we
don't
want
to
24
do
it.
We
want
to
spend
our
resources
doing
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxxv
63
1
something
else,
but
should
we
have
to,
we
will.

2
Okay.
Sir?

3
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
Lance
4
Stokes,
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.,
out
of
Detroit,

5
Michigan.
We
are
environmental
engineers
and
6
consultants.

7
You
said
­­
well,
let
me
first
say
this:

8
I,
as
one
African
business
owner,
want
to
thank
you
9
very
much
for
being
here
and
allowing
me
this
10
opportunity.
You
are
probably
going
to
get
beat
up
11
on
before
the
morning
is
out,
but
­­
it
sounds
like
12
that.

13
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
okay.

14
MR.
STOKES:
When
you
talk
about
these
15
percentages
of
8
percent,
then
10
percent,
and
then
16
you
said
earlier,
we
are
going
to
change
the
name
17
so
it
is
no
longer
WBE
and
MBE,
so
the
minority,
it
18
becomes
obscure.
And
my
concern
is,
looking
back
Mason
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Associates,
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June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxxvi
19
over
300
years
of
history,
I
always
feel
that
we
20
become
­­
and
I
say
we,
African
Americans,
get
21
pushed
to
the
back.
White
women­
owned
businesses
22
far
out
rank
in
Michigan,
the
so­
called
quote,

23
unquote,
minority
businesses.
And
even
though
24
they're
women,
they
are
not
a
minority.
In
Mason
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Associates,
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June
2005
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Disparity
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1­
cxxvii
64
1
Michigan,
and
particularly
one
of
the
largest
2
banks,
Commerical
Bank,
is
another
one
that
doesn't
3
have
African
American
anything
to
do
with
the
4
environmental.

5
MR.
LEWIS:
Don't
go
there.

6
MR.
STOKES:
I
will
tell
you,
we
have
7
minorities
here,
we
have
women,
but
it's
white
8
women,
not
black
women,
not
Asian
women,
it's
white
9
women.
Many
of
those
women­
owned
businesses,
some
10
of
the
women
don't
even
work
in
the
businesses,

11
they
have
nothing
to
do
with
the
business,
their
12
husband
owns
­­
he
is
really
the
owner.
The
wife
13
is
just
a
front
and
can
produce
all
of
the
14
documents
for
you
to
see.
So
my
import
is,
rather
15
than
just
saying
a
10
percent
or
8
percent,
or
16
whatever
that
is,
how
about
being
specific
in
17
giving
the
minority
side
some
fairness,
the
ethic
18
minority
some
fairness
so
that
we
don't
become
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxxviii
19
obscure
and
overridden
by
white
women
businesses?

20
And
that's
with
all
due
respect
to
women­
owned
21
business
that
may
be
in
here,
but
that's
a
fact.

22
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
There
are
a
number
of
23
things
in
that.
First,
when
we
look
at
economic
24
disadvantage
under
what's
going
to
be
in
place
once
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxxix
65
1
this
rule
goes
final,
being
a
minority
is
only
one
2
way
to
show
or
prove
economic
disadvantage.
We
are
3
allowed
to
say,
if
you
show
us
your
paperwork
and
4
you
say
that
you're
Asian,
we
can
look
at
that
and
5
that's
one
determining
factor
on
a
list
of
things
6
that's
already
been
identified
as
a
group
that
are
7
economically
disadvantaged.

8
And
so
­­
and
your
comment
on
8
percent,

9
10
percent
statute
that
we
are
talking
about
here,

10
those
are
EPA
goals.
8
percent
under
clean
water,

11
10
percent
under
clean
air.
Those
are
agency
12
goals.
What
we
used
to
do
was,
we
didn't
go
out
13
and
negotiate
goals.
We
just
said
we
have
an
14
internal
8
percent,
let's
just
pass
it
on
down
to
15
the
grantee.
We
can't
do
that
anymore.
Okay?

16
The
same
thing
for
the
10
percent,
we
17
say,
okay,
let's
pass
it
on.
No
negotiation.
Can
18
you
do
this?
Okay.
That
is
out
the
window,
too.
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cxxx
19
When
I
get
to
the
actual
part
where
we
talk
about
20
negotiation
of
goals,
it
will
become
a
lot
clearer
21
for
you.
Okay?

22
MS.
BETH
DORIA
(
Federation
of
Women
23
Contractors):
Ms.
Clark,
to
your
point
on
24
certification,
and
­­
I'm
sorry,
Ms.
Patrick.
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cxxxi
66
1
MS.
DONLEY:
Clark,
Kimberly
Clark.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Kimberly
Clark.

3
MS.
DORIA:
To
your
point
on
certification
and
4
the
language,
you
said
that
there
were
two
5
different
criteria,
one
in
which
said
"
owned"
and
6
the
other
that
said
"
controlled."

7
MS.
PATRICK:
"
Or"
and
"
and."

8
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
"
Or"
and
"
and."

9
MS.
DORIA:
Okay.
"
Or"
and
"
and"
and
then
you
10
said
that
EPA
may
have
to
become
certifiers
because
11
no
one
certifies
the
"
or"
portion
of
it.

12
And
I
would
suggest
that
there
is
a
13
reason
why
no
one
certifies
on
that
"
or"
portion,

14
and
that
is
exactly
the
reason
why,
the
point
that
15
the
gentleman
brought
up
about
white
women
front
16
companies.

17
We
have
been
tirelessly
working
with
a
18
lot
of
the
certifying
entities
to
ensure
that
these
Mason
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June
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cxxxii
19
front
companies,
these
white
women
who
just
on
20
paper
have
ownership
or
control,
that
we
are
able
21
to
weed
those
out,
so
that
the
true
owners
of
the
22
company,
who
are
truly
the
risk
bearers,
as
well
as
23
those
that
share
in
whatever
profits,
that
they
are
24
legitimately
women­
owned
and
controlled
companies.
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Disparity
Study
1­
cxxxiii
67
1
MS.
PATRICK:
We
do
not
disagree
with
you.
If
2
we
could
go
back
and
somehow
change
the
language
of
3
the
statute,
we
would
make
it
"
and,"
because
it
4
completely
makes
sense.
At
this
point,
we
can't
5
change
the
statute.
That's
something
Congress
has
6
put
down
and
it's
etched
in
stone
the
way
it's
7
written.
And
so
we
are
left
with
having
to
enforce
8
what
Congress
told
us
we
have
to
go
out
and
do.

9
And
that
is
owned
or
controlled
on
one
side
of
the
10
house.

11
MR.
JESSE
ANZALDUA
(
Anzaldua
Mechanical,

12
Inc.):
I
only
have
one
question.
As
far
as
the
13
certification,
we've
gotten
so
callused
that
we
can
14
print
out
a
certification
in
about
30
minutes
on
15
the
computer
now.
We've
got
so
many
different,

16
MMBC,
whatever
it
is,
every
state.
Michigan,
we
17
got
everybody.
But
with
­­
in
regard
to
using
­­

18
everybody
is
talking
about
whether
we
do
it
or
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June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cxxxiv
19
don't
do
it.
To
get
certified
with
your
program,

20
somebody
has
to
fill
out
a
form.
Well,
I'm
8A,

21
DOT,
MBOT.
What
do
we
do?
Are
you
going
to
go
22
through
that
list
and
get
our
name
or
do
we
have
to
23
supply
something?

24
MS.
PATRICK:
Supply
something
to
us.
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June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cxxxv
68
1
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
You
have
to
supply
what
you
2
have.

3
MS.
PATRICK:
There
are
forms
which
will
be
4
done
soon.
They
are
at
OMB
right
now.
The
form
is
5
a
much
shorter
form
for
you
if
you
have
one
of
6
those
certifications.
And
you
­­
it
pretty
much
7
gives
you
­­
it
gives
general
information,
name,

8
address,
so
forth
and
so
on,
necessary,
but
then
a
9
portion
of
it
that
asks
whether
or
not
you
hold
one
10
of
those
certifications.
You
tell
us
what
that
is,

11
you
provide
us
evidence
of
that
certification
and
12
then
move
forward.
So
it
is
a
much
shorter
13
process.

14
Now,
if
you're
certified
by
an
entity
15
that
you
don't
already
know
match
our
program,
if
16
you
want
to
submit
your
state
certification,
you
17
would
have
to
turn
in
to
us
the
criteria
that
your
18
state
uses
so
we
can
look
at
that
and
do
an
Mason
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cxxxvi
19
analyses
and
see
if
it
meets
the
certification.

20
One
of
the
things
that
we
did,
we
did
a
21
very
preliminary
review
of
the
business
states
to
22
see
who
had
programs
that
matched
our
criteria.

23
This
was
not
a
hard
fast
rule.
It
is
very
quick.

24
It
is
not
OGC
sanctioned
­­
I
will
just
put
that
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1­
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69
1
out
there.
But
we
looked
to
ourselves
to
see
what
2
it
is
going
to
look
like.

3
Out
of
50
states,
there
were
about
10,

4
10
to
12,
I
believe,
who
either
did
not
have
a
5
program
or
their
certification
standards
did
not
6
meet
ours.
So
most
of
the
state
certifications,
we
7
would
not
be
able
to
accept.

8
The
local
municipal
ones
we
have
to
look
9
at.

10
MR.
RODNEY
COTILLIER
(
Absolute
Fortunate
11
Finds):
I
like
what
you're
doing.
You
have
to
12
make
change
for
improving,
but
I
don't
think
that
13
the
EPA
and
many
other
organizations
are
really
14
looking
at
the
problem.

15
The
problem
is
that
you
can
scrutinize
16
and
make
sure
this
minority
firm
is
what
he's
17
supposed
to
be,
but
he
is
still
not
getting
work.

18
Because
if
you
don't
make
the
prime,
hold
that
Mason
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Study
1­
cxxxviii
19
prime
accountable
­­
Lambeau
Field
was
a
20
percent
20
requirement,
and
there's
only
10
percent
minority
21
in
that
community.
We
finished
with
24
percent,

22
because
they
had
sanctions
against
them.
The
23
contractors
had
to
go
out,
they
had
to
hire
a
24
company
like
us,
they
had
to
meet
those
goals.
And
Mason
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Associates,
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June
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1
they
did.
Otherwise,
it
came
out
of
their
pocket.

2
Now,
those
same
contractors
are
doing
3
other
projects
with
DNR
and
EPA
loans
right
now
and
4
grants
in
the
city
and
in
that
area,
and
they
are
5
not
hiring
anybody
because
you're
not
biting.

6
MS.
PATRICK:
Let
me
tell
you
the
difference
7
between
the
EPA
thing
and
the
Lambeau
Field.
With
8
the
Lambeau
Field
project,
they
had
the
power
to
9
dictate
what
the
contractors
were
going
to
do.
If
10
you
want
to
apply
pressure,
I
will
tell
you
what
11
levels
to
apply
the
pressure.
You
need
to
talk
to
12
the
grantee,
recipient,
your
state,
to
say,
"
Look
13
here,
state,
I
know
what
your
practices
are,

14
they're
not
working"
­­

15
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
They're
not
working
and
you
16
want
it
to
change.

17
MS.
PATRICK:
You
just
do
the
same
thing
you
18
did
at
Lambeau
Field.
EPA
cannot
dictate
to
the
Mason
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1­
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19
states
what
its
procurement
practices
are.
We
20
can't
say
you
must
do
this,
that
and
the
third.

21
MS.
LYNN
DONLEY:
I
think
that
­­
this
is
Lynn
22
Donley
with
the
Office
of
Regional
Policy.

23
MS.
PATRICK:
Stand
up,
Lynn.

24
MS.
DONLEY:
And
I
work
with
Pat
Thompson
and
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
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1­
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71
1
Sharon
Green
to
help
states
and
other
entities
2
establish
their
goals.
And
what
I
always
tell
3
these
people,
is
that
these
are
goals.
They
are
4
not
affirmative
action
steps.
They
are
not
set
5
aside.
But
if
it
turns
out
that
your
good
faith
6
efforts
are
not
truly
good
faith
efforts
and
we
are
7
informed
of
that,
we
will
have
serious
problems.

8
The
gap
that
many
of
the
folks
in
this
9
room
have
identified
is
how
are
we
informed
of
it,

10
how
do
we
take
that
information
and
move
forward.

11
And
I
am
sorry
to
inform
you,
that
the
best
way
you
12
can
do
that
is
to
file
a
lawsuit.
But
that
is
a
13
fact.
We
can't
police
it,
and
we
won't
police
it.

14
But
when
we
see
an
Atarand
style
15
decision,
we
act
and
change.
And
a
lot
of
times
16
that
is
what
you
have
to
bring.
You
guys
have
the
17
capacity
to
bring
a
class
action
suit
­­

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Against
your
state.
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1­
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19
MS.
DONLEY:
­­
against
the
state
or
against
20
contractors
whom
you
have
good
reason
to
believe
21
are
fraudulently
presenting
good
faith
efforts.

22
But
we
will
not
do
that
for
you,
and,
you
know,
I
23
wish
I
could
say
we
would,
but
it
would
be
unfair
24
and
unreasonable
to
let
you
leave
this
room
with
Mason
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1­
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72
1
the
impression
that
we
would.

2
I
understand
your
concern
about
3
sanctions.
I
agree
with
your
concern
about
4
sanctions,
but
Congress
has
not
given
us
the
power
5
to
act
on
those.

6
MR.
WALTER
PEARSON
(
State
of
Missouri
7
Department
of
Natural
Resources):
The
state
of
8
Missouri
did
a
disparity
study
back
in
1994.
And
9
from
that,
the
state
has
a
goal
originally
­­

10
(
WHEREUPON,
Ms.
Amy
Crowe
11
entered
the
proceedings.)

12
MR.
PEARSON:
­­
based
on
the
disparity
of
20
13
and
10.
This
is
for
contracting
and
procurement,
as
14
well.

15
After
that,
through
the
executive
16
Oversight
Review
Committee,
we
decided
to
reduce
17
the
goal
to
10
and
5.
But
the
desired
goal
was
20
18
and
10.
Now,
understand
that's
there's
a
state
Mason
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Associates,
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June
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Disparity
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1­
cxliv
19
goal
here.
There's
a
fair
share
negotiation
with
20
EPA
over
here.
We
use
­­
EPA
used
the
goal
that
21
the
state
had
required
by
the
executive
board.

22
Now,
understand
the
scenario,
because
I
23
want
to
go
back
to
something
that
you
said
­­
and
I
24
am
only
speaking
from
the
state
perspective,
given
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1
the
contract,
given
the
grantee,
given
the
2
subgrantee,
given
the
contractor,
and
given
the
3
subcontractee,
okay.
Now,
what
happens
is
that
we
4
receive
a
grant
as
grantee
from
EPA.
We
also
give
5
a
grant
or
loan
to
a
municipality.
Okay?
The
6
municipality
subcontracts
this
out
and
gets
a
7
contractor
to
come
and
do
the
work.
The
contractor
8
knows
that
there
is
a
good
faith
effort,
as
you
9
call
it.
Good
faith
effort
doesn't
work.

10
But
all
of
a
sudden
­­
but
what
he
does
11
is,
he
says,
okay,
we
are
going
to
build
a
12
wastewater
treatment
center,
we
are
going
to
do
13
this,
and
I
want
to
submit
to
the
subgrantee.

14
Now,
the
state
doesn't
track
the
15
subgrantee.
It
doesn't
track
the
sub
­­
the
16
subcontractors,
so
there's
no
way
that
we,
as
a
17
state
agency,
based
upon
our
goal,
based
upon
our
18
criteria,
can
see
what
exactly
that
contract
was
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June
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1­
cxlvi
19
doing.
So
in
terms
of
tracking
the
subcontractor,

20
who
is
the
contractor
who
got
the
contract,
so
21
we
­­
we
are
not
actually
tracking
that.
So
we
22
don't
get
the
credit
from
that.

23
Now,
one
of
the
things
that
you
were
24
saying
in
terms
of
lawsuits,
what
happens
is
that
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1­
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74
1
EPA
­­
and
we
have
a
person
who
works
with
EPA
over
2
us,
the
compliance,
the
teeth,
and
it
really
­­

3
goals
doesn't
work.
You
know
what
works
is
the
4
amount
of
dollars
that
goes
into
the
business'

5
pocket
at
the
end
of
the
day.
And
when
you
begin
6
to
look
at
goals,
I
am
­­
at
first
I
was
­­
I
saw
7
the
disparity
study
was
done
by
Mason
Tillman.
And
8
first
of
all,
I
was
really
a
goal­
setting
kind
of
9
person,
coming
from
the
Deputy
Director
of
the
10
Program
of
Economic
Development.

11
Let's
try
to
increase
the
certification.

12
I'm
not
really
into
certification.
I
think
that
we
13
need
to
change
that
whole
paradigm
shift,
and
so
14
that
these
conversations
that
I'm
hearing
today,

15
I've
been
hearing
for
the
last
ten
years.
And
at
16
some
point,
given
the
legislation,
given
the
17
conversation,
but
it's
like
the
road
to
18
construction
­­
the
road
to
success
seems
to
always
Mason
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June
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1­
cxlviii
19
be
under
construction.
(
Applause)
I
always
find
20
that.
It
always
seems
to
be
under
construction,

21
but
how
do
we
get
beyond
that,
because
I
think
that
22
giving
the
women
­­
and
I
think
that
to
grow
small
23
businesses
is
the
bottom
line
in
terms
of
how
we
24
receive
contracts,
whatever
process
it
be,
whatever
Mason
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Associates,
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June
2005
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Study
1­
cxlix
75
1
program
it
is,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
is
there
2
money
that's
going
into
businesses
that
are
3
creating
jobs,
that
are
creating
infrastructure,

4
that
are
creating
community
development?

5
That's
the
kind
of
success
that
I
6
believe
is
important.
The
certification
of
these
7
processes
are
fine.
But
I
think
we
will
probably
8
have
less
amount
of
concerns
of
the
front
9
companies.
I
think
we
have
a
less
amount
of
10
concerns
instead
of
certifications,
I
think
we
have
11
less
amount
of
concerns
where
­­
a
lot
of
concerns
12
that
we
have
here
today,
if
there
was
some
process,

13
some
way
that
we
could
be
able
to
grow
business.

14
I
have
one
example
how
to
do
that.
I
15
will
be
very
short.
I
will
be
very
short
with
16
this.
(
Laughter)
If
we
look
at
how
do
we
put
more
17
dollars
into
small
businesses
and
cut
some
of
these
18
processes
down,
you
will
see
a
change
in
this.
Mason
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June
2005
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Disparity
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1­
cl
19
Thank
you.
(
Applause)

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
do
have
to
say,
when
I
look
21
at
the
reporting
form,
you
are
required,
in
5
­­

22
Section
5E,
it
says
actual
MBE/
WBE
procurement
23
accomplished
this
reporting
period
by
loan
24
recipient,
SEP
recipient
­­
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76
1
MS.
PATRICK:
And
your
prime
contractor
­­

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
­­
and
your
prime
contractor.

3
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
which
would
include
­­

4
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
This
is
not
a
new
rule.
You
5
are
required.
Now,
I
can't
tell
you,
"
Hey,
Pat,

6
you
need
to
talk
to
him."

7
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

8
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
"
Okay.
Make
sure
you
talk
to
9
your
grantee,"
if
they're
not
giving
us
that
10
information.
You're
required
to
give
us
that.

11
MR.
PEARSON:
That's
true,
it's
required,
but
12
states
don't
do
it.
They
don't.

13
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
you're
at
the
state
level.

14
If
you
can't
make
your
own
state
do
it,
I
mean,
if
15
you
­­

16
MR.
PEARSON:
Excuse
me.
Again,
Walter
17
Pearson.
What
you
have
is
that
you
have
water,
you
18
have
various
programs,
you
have
the
clean
drinking
Mason
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1­
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19
water
program.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
The
form
is
the
same
for
all
21
the
programs.

22
MR.
PEARSON:
You
have
all
these
programs
and
23
you
have
people
that
are
administering
these
24
programs.
Okay.
They
change.
They
have
turnovers
Mason
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77
1
and
turnovers.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
recognize
that.

3
MR.
PEARSON:
But
the
compliance,
the
teeth
4
has
to
come
from
you
to
us.
It
has
to
come
from
5
what
this
lady
was
saying,
is
there
be
­­
be
it
­­

6
be
7
it
­­
I
can't
say
this,
so
just
you
put
it
down
if
8
you
want
to,
some
kind
of
reaction
based
upon
this
9
class
thing
that
she
just
talked
about
(
laughter),

10
okay,
to
draw
not
only
from
a
regional,
but
also
11
from
a
national.
Then
you
begin
to
have
some
kind
12
of
results.

13
Very
shortly.
Brownfields,
1983,
where
14
they
tried
to
dump
some
soil
into
a
landfill,
and
15
what
did
the
people
do
in
North
Carolina?
They
16
stopped
it.
Which
started
the
Brownfields
Program.

17
The
Brownfields
Program
started
from
MBE/
WBE
deal.

18
I
am
just
saying,
in
doing
the
history,
it
has
to
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1­
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19
happen
like
she
said.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Not
from
­­

21
MR.
PEARSON:
That's
the
way
you
get
things
22
done.

23
MR.
JOHNNY
JOHNSON
(
Johnson
Marketing
&

24
Management
Company):
My
firm
is
8A,
certified
as
Mason
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Study
1­
clv
78
1
8A
SDB,
and
I
want
to
know
if
I'm
certified
as
an
2
SDB,
could
I
bid
on
current
contracts
with
EPA?
If
3
not,
how
long
does
it
take
to
one
get
certified
4
with
EPA
if
the
company
has
an
8A
SDB
already?

5
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.
If
you
are
talking
about
6
doing
business
with
EPA,
that's
direct
procurement,

7
on
the
other
side.
If
you
hold
those
8
certifications,
go
forth,
do
business.
Work
it
9
out.

10
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
I
will
talk
to
you
about
11
that
afterwards.

12
MS.
PATRICK:
If
you're
talking
about
13
procurements
under
EPA
grants,
at
this
point,
we
14
self
certify.
It
is
not
until
this
rule
goes
into
15
effect.
Okay?
Until
this
rule
is
final,
that
it
16
will
be
required
for
you
to
have
EPA
certification.

17
We
don't
know
how
long
the
process
is
18
going
to
take.
Our
vision
is,
most
of
the
people
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1­
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19
who
will
seek
our
certification
will
already
have
a
20
certification.
And
in
your
case,
you
have
a
21
certification,
it
will
cut
down
the
process
a
lot.

22
And
SBA
has
done
the
leg
work
for
us.
They
looked
23
at
all
your
financials.
They
have
done
all
of
24
that,
so
we
don't
have
to
do
it
and
so
that
makes
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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79
1
the
process
a
lot
shorter.
In
my
dream,
it
will
be
2
very
quick.
But
we
won't
know
until
we
start
doing
3
this,
because
we
are
completely
100
percent
brand
4
new
to
this
type
of
process.

5
MR.
JOHNSON:
So
when
can
we
seek
business
on
6
the
grant
side?

7
MS.
PATRICK:
You
can
do
it
now.
You
can
do
8
it
right
now.

9
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Can
we
go
to
the
next
10
session?

11
MS.
PATRICK:
No,
no,
not
yet.

12
MR.
JOHN
FRENCH
(
SynergyOne
LLC):
John
13
French,
SynergyOne,
Indianapolis.
I
would
change
14
that,
that
we
would
be
­­
if
you
hear
us
requesting
15
that
EPA
accept
federal
certification
that
16
companies
hold.
If
8A
certified,
the
EPA
should
17
accept
that
when
the
program
starts.

18
MS.
PATRICK:
We
are.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clviii
19
MR.
FRENCH:
When
the
program
starts,
without
20
further
certification.

21
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes,
we
are.
We're
just
22
asking
­­

23
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
still
have
to
see
your
24
paperwork.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clix
80
1
MS.
PATRICK:
We
can't
­­

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
can't
just
take
your
word
3
for
it,
then
you
say
you
are
an
8A
contractor
and
4
you
have
nothing
to
back
that
up
with.
We
are
just
5
saying,
show
us
your
paperwork
from
SBA.

6
MS.
PATRICK:
Show
us
your
certification.

7
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
that's
fine.

8
MR.
FRENCH:
You
just
said
you
had
no
idea
how
9
long
it's
going
to
take.

10
MS.
PATRICK:
No,
he
said
how
long
was
the
11
actual
process.
He
said
once
he
showed
me
his
8A
12
certification,
and
I
looked
at
it
and
verified
this
13
is
a
real
certification,
blah,
blah,
blah,
how
long
14
will
it
take
me
to
send
him
an
EPA
certification
15
based
on
that.
And
I
don't
know
because
we've
16
never
done
it
before.

17
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
would
think
­­

18
MS.
PATRICK:
I
think
it
will
be
a
very
quick
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clx
19
process,
because
once
we
see
that
you
have
a
20
certification,
like
I
said,
SBA
has
done
the
leg
21
work.
We
can
turn
around
and
send
you
your
EPA
22
certification
in
the
mail,
also,
immediately.
We
23
don't
know
what
kind
of
volume
we're
dealing
with.

24
So
I
can't
give
him
a
number
of
days
for
what
the
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clxi
81
1
turnaround
will
be
to
get
back
out.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
can't
tell
you
that
­­
is
3
it
on?

4
MS.
PATRICK:
I
think
you
killed
it.

5
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Hello?

6
We
need
a
break.
Is
that
working?
This
7
is
a
good
time
to
take
a
break.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
Take
a
ten
minute
break.

9
And
when
we
come
back,
we
are
going
to
10
move
on.

11
(
WHEREUPON,
a
recess
was
had.)

12
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
All
right.
We
have
now
a
13
comment
to
be
made
from
the
Commissioner
of
the
14
Metropolitan
Water
Reclamation
District
of
Greater
15
Chicago
District.

16
MS.
AMY
CROWE
(
Metropolitan
Water
Reclamation
17
District
of
Greater
Chicago):
My
name
is
Amy
18
Crowe,
and
I'm
the
Affirmative
Action
Administrator
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clxii
19
for
the
Water
Reclamation
District
here
in
Chicago.

20
Commissioner
Barbara
McGowan
is
the
chairperson
of
21
the
District's
Affirmative
Action
Committee,
and
22
Commissioner
McGowan
will
be
presenting
excerpts
23
from
a
resolution
which
was
passed
unanimously
by
24
our
Board
of
Commissioners
at
the
Water
District
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clxiii
82
1
after
Commissioner
McGowan
called
an
affirmative
2
action
study
session
last
week
to
discuss
these
3
changes
that
are
being
proposed
by
the
EPA.

4
Commissioner
McGowan
will
present
the
5
significant
points
which
have
come
forward
in
the
6
form
of
a
board
resolution
as
a
result
of
the
7
District's
review
of
these
proposed
rules.
And
the
8
District's
Board
of
Commissioners
would
like
to
9
have
these
­­
this
resolution
entered
into
the
10
official
record
for
this
hearing
and
made
part
of
11
the
docket.
Thank
you.

12
Commissioner
McGowan.

13
COMMISSIONER
BARBARA
J.
McGOWAN
(
Metropolitan
14
Water
Reclamation
District
of
Greater
Chicago):

15
Thank
you,
Amy.
Good
morning.

16
First
of
all,
I
would
like
to
thank
you
17
for
allowing
me
to
speak
this
morning.
I
will
be
18
as
brief
as
possible
in
the
interest
of
time
but
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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19
also
individuals
that
may
want
to
speak
this
20
morning.
I
do
have
about
seven
points
here
­­

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.

22
COMMISSIONER
McGOWAN:
­­
that
this
board
23
adopted
on
January
8th.

24
The
Water
Reclamation
District
disagrees
Mason
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Associates,
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June
2005
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83
1
with
the
EPA's
definition
of
disadvantaged
business
2
enterprise
and
instead
suggests
that
the
proposed
3
rule
be
limited
to
the
language
now
set
forth
in
4
the
district's
affirmative
action
ordinance.

5
Two,
the
Water
Reclamation
District
6
disagrees
with
the
inclusion
of
disabled
American
7
owned
businesses
and
private
and
voluntary
8
organizations
controlled
by
individuals
who
are
9
socially
and
economically
disadvantaged.
And
10
instead
suggests
that
the
proposed
rule
be
limited
11
to
the
language
now
set
forth
in
our
affirmative
12
action
ordinance.

13
Three,
the
District
disagrees
that
the
14
inclusion
of
any
organization
that
is
only
15
controlled
by
individuals
who
are
socially
and
16
economically
disadvantaged,
and
instead
suggests
17
that
the
proposed
rule
be
limited
to
organizations
18
that
are
owned,
controlled
and
set
forth
in
the
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clxvi
19
district
affirmative
action
ordinance.

20
Four,
the
district
disagrees
with
the
21
method
of
establishing
a
fair
share
objective
on
22
irrelevant
geographic
market
and
instead
suggests
23
that
the
District
be
allowed
to
follow
the
language
24
now
set
forth
in
the
District
affirmative
action
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
clxvii
84
1
ordinance.

2
Five,
the
District
disagrees
with
the
3
discussion
of
available
analysts
and
suggests
that
4
the
district
be
allowed
to
follow
the
language
now
5
set
forth
in
the
district
affirmative
action
6
ordinance
regarding
the
availability
analysis
and
7
that
it
be
allowed
to
remain
in
effect
without
8
further
study
as
long
as
it
reflects
the
needs
of
9
the
committee.

10
Six,
the
District
disagrees
with
the
11
discussion
of
brokering
and
suggests
that
the
12
district
be
allowed
to
follow
the
language
now
set
13
forth
in
the
district
affirmative
action
ordinance
14
regarding
the
calculation
of
credit
for
15
participation
by
subcontractors,
suppliers
and
16
brokers.

17
The
district
acknowledges
the
discussion
18
of
the
adoption
of
a
personal
net
worth
standard
to
Mason
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Associates,
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June
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Name
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Study
1­
clxviii
19
determine
the
eligibility
of
socially
disadvanced
20
individuals
to
participate
as
DBEs.
Let
me
say
21
that
the
DBE
program
identifies
certain
areas
where
22
we
must
pull
people
from.
Right
now
our
program
23
doesn't
say,
you
have
to
live
over
in
area
A
or
you
24
have
to
live
over
in
area
B.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clxix
85
1
We
take
our
MBE,
WBEs
and
SBEs
from
all
2
over,
and
we
would
like
to
continue
to
do
that.

3
Our
other
concern
is,
what
effect
would
this
DBE
4
requirement
have
on
our
present
goals
that
we
now
5
have
set
for
our
MBEs,
WBEs
and
SBEs,
and
would
6
this
program
exclude
any
of
those
people
that
we're
7
already
accommodating?

8
Thank
you
so
much.

9
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

10
MS.
AMY
CROWE
(
Metropolitan
Water
Reclamation
11
District
of
Greater
Chicago):
I
would
also
like
to
12
point
out
a
couple
of
areas
that
we
do
agree
with
13
the
direction
the
EPA
is
headed.
One
of
the
14
discussion
areas
was
bait
and
switch,
to
eliminate
15
that,
and
we've
eliminated
that
in
our
program
16
through
ensuring
that
all
minority
businesses
who
17
are
listed
on
our
utilization
plans
that
are
18
submitted
with
the
bid
do
receive
a
letter
of
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clxx
19
intent
and
that's
considered
a
responsiveness
issue
20
for
bids
that
are
accepted
at
the
district.

21
Some
of
the
forms
that
are
now
being
22
introduced
certainly
go
in
that
direction
in
terms
23
of
ensuring
prompt
payments,
resolution
of
24
disputes.
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clxxi
86
1
The
area
of
certification
is
an
area
2
that
has
been
addressed
in
the
proposed
rules
and
3
certainly
one
that
we
agree
with
in
terms
of
4
principle
and
concept.
We,
as
I
say,
have
some
5
areas
we
are
concerned
about.
These
were
6
articulated
by
Commissioner
McGowan,
so
we
7
appreciate
the
opportunity
the
EPA
has
given
us
8
this
morning
to
allow
us
to
share
our
concerns
with
9
you.

10
Our
ordinance
probably
should
be
11
included
in
the
record,
and
I
have
brought
our
12
ordinance,
because
there
are
a
lot
of
items
in
the
13
testimony
that
refer
to
the
ordinance.
May
I
14
furnish
that?

15
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Yes,
thank
you.
We
look
for
16
us
to
see
that
because
we
have
no
idea
what
it
is,

17
either.

18
MS.
CROWE:
Thank
you,
Director.
I
appreciate
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
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Client
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Disparity
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1­
clxxii
19
that.

20
MS.
PATRICK:
All
right.
Okay.
Now
we
are
21
going
to
try
to
make
a
little
bit
more
progress.

22
The
next
thing
we
are
going
to
highlight
23
is
$
750,000
net
worth
provision.
If
you
turn
to
24
page
3
of
the
summary
No.
4,
the
practical
effect
Mason
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1­
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87
1
of
the
provision
as
they
are
adopted,
is
that
­­
if
2
these
provisions
are
adopted,
individuals
with
a
3
net
worth
greater
than
or
equal
to
750,000
will
be
4
precluded
from
initial
eligibility.
That
net
worth
5
requirement
excludes
the
personal
interest
in
the
6
business
and
excludes
your
personal
residence
in
7
calculating
the
net
worth.

8
Let's
see.
Good
faith
efforts.
This
is
9
the
fun
part.
We
have
had
a
lot
of
discussion
10
about
the
good
faith
efforts
and
it
appears
to
me
11
many
of
you
are
familiar
with
them.
Currently,
in
12
one
part
of
the
regulation
it
is
called
the
six
13
affirmative
steps.
In
another
part
it
is
called
14
the
six
positive
efforts.
We
realize
they
both
say
15
the
same
thing,
so
we
combined
them
under
one
name
16
and
called
them
six
good
faith
efforts.
That's
17
just
a
name
change,
but
the
practical
effects
of
18
those
six
efforts
are
still
the
same
efforts
in
Mason
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Associates,
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June
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
clxxiv
19
terms
of
content.
So
nothing
about
what
is
in
them
20
has
changed.
Okay?

21
The
next
thing
is
contract
22
administration
provision.
These
are
very
23
important,
because
we
see
these
provisions
as
ways
24
of
doing
a
little
bit
more
of
the
policing
and
Mason
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1­
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88
1
making
sure
that
some
things
don't
change
mid
flow
2
in
permitting
some
of
the
bait
and
switch
tactics
3
that
we
know
occur
with
prime
contractors
and
how
4
the
entire
world
changes
once
they
finally
get
the
5
contract
and
suddenly
the
subcontractor
disappears
6
out
of
somewhere.
The
MBEW
we
were
going
to
do
7
business
with
is
suddenly
gone.

8
We
have
provisions
that
we
hope
will
9
safeguard
against
that.
The
first
one,
recipient
10
must
be
notified
in
writing,
recipient
being
the
11
grantee,
must
be
notified
in
writing
by
its
12
subcontractor
prior
to
any
termination
of
the
DBE
13
subcontractor.
A
lot
of
times
these
terminations
14
occur
and
the
recipient
has
no
idea
that
it's
15
happened.
They
have
no
idea
that,
you
know,
that
16
the
plans
that
they
had
talked
about
with
the
prime
17
contractor
had
changed.

18
We
want
to
make
sure
that
they
are
Mason
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June
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Study
1­
clxxvi
19
notified
in
writing
before
any
type
of
termination
20
takes
place
in
the
DBE
subcontract.

21
Number
two,
when
a
DBE
subcontractor
22
fails
to
complete
its
work
under
the
subcontract
23
for
any
reason,
the
recipient
must
require
the
24
prime
to
make
good
faith
efforts
in
hiring
another
Mason
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89
1
subcontractor.
This
provision
ensures
that
the
2
good
faith
efforts
do
not
go
away
with
the
first
3
attempt.

4
So
if
the
prime
contractor
wants
to
say
5
well,
we
decided
not
to
go
with
them,
we
want
to
go
6
with
someone
else,
our
push
back
is,
"
Okay,
fine,

7
go
with
someone
else,
but
you
have
to
go
through
8
the
same
steps
again
in
making
sure
that
you
9
include
minorities
and
women
in
the
process."

10
Number
three,
a
recipient
must
require
11
its
prime
contractor
to
make
a
good
faith
effort
12
even
if
the
fair
share
objectives
are
met.

13
A
lot
of
times,
once
a
recipient
meets
14
it
12
percent
goal,
they're
like,
okay,
I
met
my
12
15
percent,
I'm
done.
But
that
doesn't
mean
you
are
16
done
spending
the
EPA's
money.
So
what
we're
17
saying,
even
after
you
have
met
your
goal,
every
18
time
you
go
out
there
procuring
those
four
Mason
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June
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Disparity
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1­
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19
categories,
you
have
to
continue
to
make
the
same
20
good
faith
efforts.
They
don't
just
stop
once
the
21
goal
is
met.
As
long
as
you
have
our
money,
as
22
long
as
you
keep
spending,
you
keep
doing
the
23
process.

24
Next,
a
recipient
must
require
its
prime
Mason
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Disparity
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1­
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90
1
contractor
to
pay
it
subcontractors
for
2
satisfactory
performance
in
a
specific
number
of
3
days
when
the
prime
contractor
is
in
receipt
of
4
payment
from
recipient.
This
is
very
important.

5
Across
the
country
we
received
a
lot
of
comments
6
about
this.
The
primary
one
is
that,
EPA,
you
need
7
to
find
a
specific
number
of
days,
because
if
you
8
leave
it
open,
that
number
of
days
can
be
30,
it
9
can
be
60.
I
even
had
one
recipient
during
the
10
process
of
the
hearing
say
that
where
they
are,
it
11
is
seven
days.
And
so
we'd
like
to
receive
more
12
comments
from
everyone
about
what
you
think
a
13
specific
number
of
days
should
be
or
what's
14
reasonable
in
terms
of
that,
because
we
are
very
15
open
to
putting
in
a
specific
number
of
days
in
the
16
recognition,
leaving
this
sort
of
open
to
the
17
contract
negotiations
between
the
sub
and
prime.

18
We
would
like
to
establish
what
that
number
of
days
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Disparity
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1­
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19
is
because,
really,
there
is
no
excuse
for
not
20
having
almost
immediate
payment
once
the
prime
is
21
paid.

22
Sir.

23
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
As
we
24
go
through
this
­­
Mason
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91
1
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Name
again.

2
MR.
STOKES:
I'm
sorry.
I'm
Lance
Stokes.

3
I'm
still
him.
Environmental
Compliance
4
Improvement,
Inc.,
out
of
Detroit
Michigan.
I
5
guess
we
are
still
environmental
engineers
and
6
consultants.

7
As
we
go
through
this,
I
cannot
help
but
8
observe,
and
this
really,
I
find
disturbing,
when
9
you
speak
about
the
prime
contractor
through
10
discussions,
and
as
is
written
here,
you
always
11
speak
about
the
subcontractors,
the
DBE.
So
I
just
12
wonder
what's
wrong
with
that
picture?
Is
that
the
13
message
that
we
have
all
come
to
that
state
of
14
mind,
that
the
DBE,
the
minority
is
going
to
be
the
15
subcontractor?
What
about
the
minority
being
the
16
prime
contractor?

17
MS.
PATRICK:
What
we're
saying
is,
whether
18
the
prime
contractor
is
a
minority
or
not,
these
Mason
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Disparity
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19
things
still
have
to
take
place.
When
we're
20
talking
about
some
of
these
provisions
only
kick
in
21
if
you're
dealing
with
a
subcontractor
who
happens
22
to
be
a
DBE
subcontractor,
we're
saying
you
can
23
terminate
anybody
else
you
want,
but
if
you
24
terminate
a
DBE
subcontractor,
you
need
to
notify
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92
1
the
recipient
that
you've
done
it.

2
We're
saying
you
can
pay
anybody
else
3
from
the
time
you
want
to
pay
them,
but
if
you're
4
dealing
with
a
DBE
subcontractor,
you're
going
to
5
pay
them
in
a
specific
number
of
days.
We're
not
6
picking
on
the
DBE
saying
they
only
have
potential
7
to
be
the
subcontractor.
They
can
be
the
prime,

8
but
if
they
are
the
prime,
these
things
still
9
apply.

10
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
If
you
are
a
DBE
and
you
are
11
the
prime
and
you
have
other
DBEs
under
you
as
12
subcontractors,
you
would
have
to
pay
them
and
13
adhere
to
these,
as
well.

14
MR.
STOKES:
Would
have
to
pay
them.
As
a
15
prime
and
an
ethnic
minority,
what
good
faith
16
effort
­­
I
wouldn't
have
to
go
and
get
minorities
17
or
women­
owned
businesses.
I
am
a
minority.

18
MS.
PATRICK:
Oh,
yes,
you
would,
if
you
Mason
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June
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Disparity
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19
subcontract.

20
MR.
STOKES:
If
I
subcontract.

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
If
you
subcontract,
you
22
would.

23
MR.
STOKES:
That's
why
I
say
if
you
handle
24
the
whole
contract
­­
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93
1
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Then
that's
fine.

2
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
true.

3
MR.
STOKES:
Okay.
That's
why
I
say,
it
makes
4
it
appear
as
this
is
the
prime.
There's
always
a
5
nonminority.

6
The
other
question
I
was
going
to
ask
7
you
when
you
said,
somebody
asked
you
about
the
8
certification
thing
is,
isn't
EPA
part
of
ProNet?

9
Because
if
you're
8A
or
whatever
your
status
is,
or
10
you
can
register
on
ProNet
with
the
CCR
on
the
11
internet.
That
is
all
what
government
agencies
are
12
supposed
to
go
to.

13
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
But
this
is
separate
and
14
distinct.
Under
the
grant
process,
you
don't
have,

15
necessarily,
and
we
do
recognize
­­
and
ProNet
is
16
gone,
the
CCR.
Everybody
know
that?
If
you
don't,

17
you
should.
We
will
talk
about
that
in
direct
18
procurement,
but
you
need
to
be
registered
there.
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Disparity
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19
Okay?

20
And
as
of
January
1,
2004,
in
order
to
21
do
business
with
any
federal
government
for
direct
22
procurement,
you
got
to
be
registered
in
CCR.
If
23
you're
not
registered,
you
can't
do
business,
but
24
that's
another
program.
We
will
talk
about
that
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Disparity
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1­
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94
1
later.

2
We
have
worked
to
identify
other
places
3
where
state
and
local
government,
our
grant
4
recipients
can
go
to
identify
minority
and
5
women­
owned
businesses.
We
have
brought
in
for
our
6
conferences
people
from
SBA,
when
ProNet
was
there,

7
to
identify
­­
we
brought
in
people
from
MBEA
to
8
use
the
Phoenix
database,
et
cetera,
to
show
them
9
and
to
tell
them
and
to
make
that
kind
of
10
information
readily
available
to
them.
But
we're
11
not
saying
that
that
is
the
only
place
that
they
12
have
to
go
or
should
go
to
look.
A
lot
of
these
13
local
jurisdictions
already
have
a
listing
that
14
they
keep
through
their
minority
supplier,
the
15
government
agency
or
council.
You
can
go
to
your
16
Chamber
of
Commerce.
There
are
a
number
of
places,

17
and
we
don't
want
to
limit
anybody,
because,
there
18
again,
everybody
within
this
country
is
not
Mason
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June
2005
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Disparity
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1­
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19
registered
as
business
owners
with
ProNet.
That's
20
a
choice
that
people
made
to
do
business
with
the
21
federal
government,
but
at
the
local
level.

22
When
I
am
in
Billings,
Montana,
and
most
23
of
them
­­
see,
we're
looking
more
broader
and
24
that's
what
you,
I
would
hope
that
you
could
kind
Mason
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Associates,
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June
2005
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Disparity
Study
1­
clxxxix
95
1
of
understand.
Everybody
has
not
decided
to
do
2
work
with
the
federal
government.
I
have
to
work
3
with
local
municipalities,
local
jurisdictions,
as
4
well,
and
so
there
may
be
some
unique
programs
that
5
are
available
from
those
areas
that
we
have
to
take
6
into
consideration,
as
well.
Okay?
So
there
is
a
7
difference.

8
Yes,
ma'am.

9
MS.
KAY
SAUNDERS
(
Bellewether,
Ltd.):
Kay
10
Saunders
with
Bellewether,
Ltd.,
a
Kansas
City
11
organizational
development
and
training
company.
I
12
want
to
go
back
to
your
question.
And
your
13
question,
as
I
understood,
is
what
is
a
reasonable
14
amount
of
time
in
which
to
expect
payment.

15
As
you're
looking
at
the
DBE
as
a
16
subcontractor,
moneys
have
been
expended
on
behalf
17
of
that
subcontractor
in
fulfilling
that
contract,

18
and
so
those
are
not
moneys
that
have
been
paid
in
Mason
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1­
cxc
19
arrears
but
are
actually
expended
up
front.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Right.

21
MS.
SAUNDERS:
It
has
been
our
experience
in
22
the
past
that
within
a
seven
to
ten­
day
time
frame
23
seems
very
reasonable.
Banking
institutions
will
24
typically
say,
even
though
they
may
take
your
Mason
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1­
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96
1
deposit,
they
may
say
that
money
really
isn't
2
available
to
you
for
seven
days.
And
so
in
an
3
effort
to
address
that,
seven
to
ten
days
should
4
certainly
seem
reasonable.
And
anything
beyond
5
that,
I
think
the
contractor
is
borrowing
our
6
money.

7
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

9
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Sir.

10
MR.
RODNEY
COTILLIER
(
Absolute
Fortunate
11
Finds):
I
think
this
is
­­
Rodney
Cotillier,

12
Absolute
Fortunate
Finds,
sorry.

13
I
think
this
is
pretty
steady
here.

14
They
do
hold
it
for
seven
to
ten
days.
The
reason
15
why
is,
I
know
contracts
to
get
major
jobs,
small
16
business
owner
doesn't
have
much
money
to
put
out
17
there,
and
he
is
paying
the
work
force
30,
45
days,

18
paying
union
dues,
buying
material.
Then
I
have
Mason
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Disparity
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1­
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19
known
them
to
go
as
long
as
90
days
to
get
paid
or
20
they
go
belly
up.

21
So
if
you
do
a
seven­
to
ten­
day,
that
22
is
a
sweeter
thing.
If
you
go
longer
than
that,
it
23
may
hurt
the
minority
contractor
and
subs.

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you,
sir.
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97
1
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Next.

3
MS.
PATRICK:
Along
these
lines
­­
sir,
did
4
you
have
a
topic?

5
MR.
JOHN
FRENCH
(
SynergyOne
LLC):
John
French
6
from
SynergyOne.
I,
too,
believe
that
the
seven­

7
to
ten­
day
payment
period
would
be
sufficient.

8
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
Lance
9
Stokes,
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.

10
MS.
LYNN
DONLEY:
Are
you
from
Detroit?

11
(
Laughter)

12
MR.
STOKES:
How
did
you
know?

13
Environmental
consultants
and
engineers.

14
I
have
a
concern
with
this,
seven
days
15
from
the
prime
contractor's
receipt
of
payment
from
16
the
recipient.
We
have
been
in
situations
where
17
the
prime
did
not
receive
his
or
her
money
or
told
18
us
that
for
like
nine
months.
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1­
cxciv
19
MS.
PATRICK:
But
you
believed
him?

20
MR.
STOKES:
What
to
do.
Here
is
what
21
happened.
They
did
­­
they
made
errors
in
22
submitting
their
invoices.
I
don't
believe
it.
We
23
have
been
paid
very
quickly
by
the
government,
but
24
not
state
agencies,
not
these
grants.
So
there
is
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1­
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98
1
no
telling.
So
why
not
put
somebody
in
here
like
2
where
my
vendors
work
for
me,
I
pay
them,
whether
3
my
customer
pays
me
or
not,
because
that's
my
4
responsibility.

5
So
why
should
these
primes
that,
because
6
they
have
the
big
project,
they
have
to
have
more
7
dollars
than
me,
why
should
they
be
let
off
the
8
hook?
They
need
to
pay
at
least
within
30
days
9
from
the
time
the
work
is
completed,
that
would
be
10
my
recommendation,
not
seven
to
five
days
and
they
11
use
that,
and
it's
just
like
you
said,
you
believe
12
them.
What
can
I
do?

13
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

14
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you.

15
MS.
LYNN
DONLEY:
I
have
a
suggestion
for
16
them.
My
name
is
Lynn
Donley
with
ORC
here
in
17
Region
V.
Perhaps
­­
my
first
reaction
to
your
18
comment
is
the
forces
of
the
marketplace
will
drive
Mason
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Study
1­
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19
that
prime
out
of
business,
because
no
one
is
going
20
to
want
to
work
for
him,
but
perhaps
something
can
21
be
added
to
our
own
rule
about
notification
of
when
22
payment
is
made
to
the
prime.

23
(
Chorus
of
"
good
idea.")

24
MS.
DONLEY:
When
the
payment
is
made
to
the
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99
1
prime,
it
goes
all
the
way
down
the
trail.

2
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
CCR
3
does
that.

4
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
CCR
is
not
under
this.
This
5
is
indirect,
so
CCR
doesn't
apply
here.
You
got
to
6
know
what
program
we're
talking
about.
I
just
7
heard
that
come
from
the
audience.
CCR
is
not
in
8
play
here.
That
is
direct
procurement.
We
will
9
talk
about
that
later.

10
MS.
PATRICK:
That
is
a
good
suggestion.

11
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Very
good,
Lynn.
We
will
be
12
talking
to
you
about
that.

13
MR.
SUDHIR
MANTRI
(
Integrated
Environmental
14
Solutions,
Inc.):
I'm
Sudhir
Mantri,
Integrated
15
Environmental
Solutions
from
Gary,
Indiana.
I
got
16
I
two
questions
regarding
payment.
Most
of
the
17
time,
the
prime
subcontractors,
Dr.
Stokes
said
it
18
very
well,
when
we
pay
our
subcontractors
we
use,
Mason
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Associates,
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19
it
is
typically
within
45
to
60
days,
but
we
have
20
seen
from
the
bigger
companies,
the
larger
21
companies,
delaying
the
project
until
almost
six
22
months
sometimes.
Okay.

23
The
thing
that
if
you
are
a
prime
24
contractor,
you
should
have
enough
resources
Mason
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2005
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100
1
available
to
manage
the
contract.
If
we
can
use
2
our
credit
to
pay
our
vendors,
why
can't
you
use
3
your
credit
lines
to
pay
yours
subcontractors?
You
4
know?
I
mean,
there
should
be
a
minimum
policy,
60
5
to
90
days,
policy
that
is
reasonable.
A
lot
of
6
times
what
happens
is
that,
you
know,
even
the
7
subcontractor's
work
could
be
done,
you
know,
in
a
8
short
period,
but
the
project
could
be
a
lot
longer
9
project.
It
might
include
the
invoices
in
time,
so
10
they
would
probably
take
160
days
to
send
their
11
invoice,
you
know.
And
the
whole
process,
nobody
12
has
to
back
stop.

13
The
second
question
regarding
8A,
can
14
cities,
can
they
actually
set
aside
contracts
for
15
8A
companies?
You
know,
they
receive
a
revolving
16
loan
fund
or
something
like
that.
What
I
heard,

17
the
city
has
to
go
for
bid
and
then
go
for
general.

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
8A
is
applicable
at
the
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1­
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19
federal
government
contracting
level.
It
does
not
20
apply
at
the
state
and
local
municipality.
You
21
have
to
go
to
each
one
of
them,
and
we've
got
50
22
states,
trust
territories.
Everybody's
got
23
something
different.
You
got
some
from
the
water
24
board.
Theirs
is
different.
We
have
to
deal
with
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101
1
each
one
of
those
individually.

2
MR.
JESSE
ANZALDUA
(
Anzaldua
Mechanical,

3
Inc.):
Thank
you.
Jesse
Anzaldua,
Anzaldua
4
Mechanical.
The
only
way
you
are
going
to
control
5
this
is
by
putting
a
penalty
if
they
don't
pay
6
within
30
days,
with
a
2
percent
penalty
that
they
7
have
to
pay
their
own
every
month.
And
the
only
8
way
you
are
going
to
make
general
contractors
9
comply
is
by
giving
them
a
fine.

10
MS.
PATRICK:
I
am
going
to
ask
for
a
quick
11
question.
As
far
as
your
negotiation
as
a
12
subcontractor
with
the
prime,
in
your
contracts
13
where
it
talks
about
payment,
do
you
have
14
provisions
that
say
my
payment
is
not
contingent
15
upon
your
payment
by
anybody
else?
Do
you
16
negotiate
those
types
of
terms
in
your
agreement
17
with
the
prime
contractor?

18
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):
Of
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
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2005
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1­
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19
course,
you
try
to
do
that,
and
sometimes
it
is
20
refused.
I
always
slash
out
that
I
have
to
wait
21
five
days,
and
I
write
in,
you
have
to
pay
me
22
within
30
days.
And
they
will
either
blow
past
it
23
or
say
"
Okay,
Lance,
we
will
use
you
anyway,"
and
24
pay
you
when
they
want
to
or
they
get
somebody
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102
1
else.

2
MS.
PATRICK:
Just
wondering.

3
MS.
CLAIRE
WILLIAMS
(
Environmental
Design
4
International,
Inc.):
Claire
Williams,

5
Environmental
Design,
local
environmental
civil
6
engineering
company.
First,
I
want
to
say
thank
7
you
to
the
Metropolitan
Water
Reclamation
for
8
coming
out
and
giving
you
their
opinion.
We
do
a
9
lot
of
work
for
them
as
subcontractors
and
that
10
letter
of
intent
is
a
very
good
idea.
We
get
it
11
from
the
prime
before
the
contract
starts.
I
think
12
MWRGC
sends
us
paperwork.
We
fill
out
the
13
paperwork
along
with
the
letter
and
send
it
back
to
14
them,
which
is
in
writing
from
the
prime
that
says
15
what
we
are
going
to
do,
how
much,
percentage
or
16
dollars,
so
that's
a
very
good
idea.
But
as
far
as
17
the
payment
or
the
negotiating
subcontracts,
you
18
can
negotiate
that,
but
if
you
make
it
too
hard
for
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19
them,
they
will
find
somebody
else
to
do
the
work,

20
and
that
is
the
bottom
line.

21
And
so
­­
and,
of
course,
you
know,
the
22
time
passes
and
that
seven
days
becomes
12
days,

23
14,
so
that's
the
kind
of
­­
that
is,
the
reality
24
of
the
situation
is,
that
they
will
find
somebody
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103
1
else
to
do
the
work.

2
MS.
PATRICK:
I
think
you
also
asked
me
to
get
3
a
better
picture
of
what
it
is
you
guys
are
doing
4
for
that,
and
when
we
consider
that
provision,
we
5
will
take
all
that
into
account.

6
Let's
see.
Moving
along,
next
on
number
7
5,
"
A
recipient
must
the
completion
of
a
few
new
8
forms
to
prevent
'
bait
and
switch'
tactics
at
the
9
subcontract
level
by
the
prime
contractors
which
10
can
circumvent
the
spirit
of
the
program.
The
11
forms
would
be
completed
by
either
the
prime
12
contractors
or
DBE
subcontractors,
depending
on
the
13
applicable
form."

14
Those
forms
are
just
so
that
we
­­
that
15
EPA
and
the
recipients
know
what
is
going
on,
what
16
the
agreement
is,
what
type
of
services
you
are
17
providing,
because
at
this
point
we
have
no
18
mechanism
to
know.
And
with
these
forms,
at
least
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June
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19
we
will
be
informed
what's
going
on
and
the
20
recipient
will
be
better
informed
of
what
is
going
21
on
at
the
subcontract
level,
because
at
least
if
we
22
know,
you
know,
if
we
can
start
asking
questions,

23
you
may
not
have
all
the
teeth,
but
it
is
different
24
when
EPA
starts
asking
questions
than
it
is
when
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104
1
the
recipient
can
ask
the
same
questions.

2
So
if
they
know
that
we
are
the
primary
3
source
of
money,
and
if
we
are
looking
at
things
4
and
they
say,
"
Hey,
recipient,
what's
going
on
5
here,"
and
pay
a
little
bit
more
attention
to
this,

6
so
that's
the
reason
why
we
have
those
forms
7
included
with
this
to
know
what
is
going
on
with
8
that
letter.

9
The
next
thing,
we've
been
talking
about
10
a
lot
already,
the
fair
share
codes.
I'm
not
sure
11
how
much
deeper
we
need
to
go
into
them.
I
think
12
we've
beat
them
up
and
said
what
they
are
really
13
about
already,
and
we
know
that
they
don't
have
a
14
whole
lot
of
teeth,
and
might
find
less
of
a
15
backlash.
(
Laughter).

16
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited
Inc.):
Lance
17
Stokes,
ECI
Unlimited.

18
FROM
THE
FLOOR:
Detroit.
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19
MR.
STOKES:
That's
where
I'm
from,
Detroit,

20
environmental
engineers
and
consultants.
In
any
of
21
these
fair
share
codes,
in
this
area
of
the
22
program,
I
see
a
gaping
hole
that
appears
to
have
23
been
omitted,
which
is
performance
bond.
When
you
24
give
the
money
to
the
states
and
the
municipalities
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105
1
and
the
different
entities
that
you
distribute
it
2
to
and
then
they
ask
for
a
performance
bond,
I
3
think
early
on
in
the
discussion,
the
gentleman
4
brought
up
the
point
that
contracts
were
­­

5
programs
were
combining
the
moneys.

6
Now,
I
don't
­­
in
our
experience,
we
do
7
quite
well,
but
we
are
still
limited
on
the
extent
8
of
bonding
that
we
can
get.
So
if
I
see
a
half
9
million
dollar
job,
I
can
easily
get
five
$
100,000
10
bonds,
so
I
get
them
to
break
them
up.
Now,
if
11
they
are
bundling
them
or
a
municipality
doesn't
12
really
pay
sincerity
to
these
goals,
if
you
will,
I
13
don't
know
how
else
to
phrase
it
and
be
nice,
but
14
the
only
­­
here
is
what
they
­­
they
stop
and
they
15
will
tell
you,
"
We're
sorry,
we
can't
use
anyone
16
because
­­
we
can't
use
any
minority
businesses
or
17
DBEs
because
they
couldn't
get
performance
18
bonding."
And
who
determines
performance
bonding?
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19
The
insurance
companies.
And
you
think
the
20
insurance
companies,
in
the
United
States
cares
21
about
what
EPA
is
saying?
No,
no,
they
don't
care
22
what
anybody
is
saying.
So
when
is
EPA
going
to
do
23
something?
This
is
our
role.
When
do
you
do
24
something
about
performance
bonds
for
minority
Mason
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106
1
companies?

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Before
you
leave,
I
have
a
3
question
on
bonding.
Since
9/
11,
has
it
been
4
difficult
for
you
all
to
get
bonding?

5
(
Chorus
of
yeses.)

6
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):

7
Listen,
in
Michigan,
before
9/
11
it
was
difficult
8
to
get
funding
for
bonding.
Are
you
kidding
me?

9
(
Laughter)

10
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Even
worse
now?

11
MR.
STOKES:
One
gentleman
I
know
is
smart
12
enough,
he
got
a
whole
church
­­
the
black
church
13
in
Detroit
is
strong.
He
got
the
whole
­­
several
14
of
the
church
congregation
to
get
enough
money
to
15
raise
his
performance
bond.
It's
known,
for
an
16
African
American
company,
no
difference.
As
a
17
matter
of
fact,
it
is
harder
because
insurance
18
rates
have
gone
up,
skyrocketed.
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1­
ccxii
19
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
mean,
we've
heard
something
20
to
that
effect,
as
well.

21
MR.
STOKES:
The
cost
is
more.
They
look
at
22
you
like
­­
for
me,
they
listen
to
me
on
the
phone,

23
everything
is
fine.
I
had
a
situation
when
I
24
finally
went
to
go
pick
up
the
bond,
their
jaws
Mason
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107
1
dropped
to
the
floor.
They
thought
I
was
a
white
2
guy
on
the
phone
and
I
walked
in
and
they
said,
my
3
god,
he's
going
to
have
that
much
performance
bond.

4
So
that's
a
big
hole
in
all
of
this
has
hasn't
been
5
addressed
in
operating
­­

6
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Do
you
have
some
suggestions
7
on
how
we
can
address
performance
bond?

8
MR.
STOKES:
Yes,
I
do.
Yes,
I
do.
There
is
9
a
tri
­­
there's
something
called
a
tripatriarch.

10
Are
you
familiar
with
that?

11
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Oh,
yes.

12
MR.
STOKES:
It
covers
performance
bonding.
I
13
can
get
you
some
more
information
on
it.
And
what
14
that
is,
it
is
bonding
by
third
party
that
is
not
15
­­
it
is
an
agreement.
It
is
not
an
insurance
16
company.
But
99.9
percent
of
the
bonding
companies
17
are
insurance
companies.

18
So
just
like
­­
for
example,
SBA
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19
guarantees
loans
to
small
businesses.
If
SBA
could
20
make
that
same
guarantee
to
the
insurance
company,

21
because
the
insurance
companies
care
about
the
22
money,
and
they
have
it.
It
is
very
interesting.

23
The
insurance
companies
have
the
least
amount
of
24
information
truly
about
environmental,
but
they
are
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108
1
extremely
opinionated
when
it
comes
to
ethnicity
­­

2
African
American
ethnicities
and
other
ethnicities,

3
Spanish,
Hispanic,
American
Indian
nations.
So
I
4
recommend
that
EPA
step
to
the
plate,
either
5
provide
some
sort
of
guarantee
or
negotiate
with
6
SBA
to
guarantee
so
that
minority
companies
can
get
7
performance
bonds.
Because
none
of
this
is
going
8
to
happen.
All
they're
going
to
tell
you,
"
We
9
tried;
we
couldn't
find
one
that
could
get
a
10
performance
bond."

11
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.

12
MR.
STOKES:
Because
you
need
­­
well,
we
13
have
­­
we
make
a
lot
of
money,
but
as
far
as
14
owning
assets,
that's
why
our
performance
bonding
15
is
limited,
because
we
don't
own
a
building.
We
16
own
some
equipment,
but
we
rent
more
equipment
17
because
we
are
engineers,
not
contractors.

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.
Thank
you.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
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Purposes
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxvi
19
MS.
PATRICK:
Okey­
dokey.
Where
were
we?
We
20
just
talked
about
fair
share
goals.
One
of
the
21
things
that
we
have
instituted,
is
sometimes
we
22
found
that
they
can
drag
their
feet
about
coming
23
and
negotiating
goals
with
us.
One
of
the
24
provisions
we
have
is
that
the
rule
requires
a
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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for
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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109
1
recipient
to
submit
a
proposed
share,
fair
share
2
objectives
and
supporting
documentation
to
the
3
agency
no
later
than
90
days
after
acceptance
of
4
the
assistance
award.
Instead
of
relying
on
grant
5
conditions
to
accomplish
similar
results,
they
are
6
supposed
to
do
this
task.

7
A
recipient
would
not
be
able
to
spend
8
any
of
its
financial
assistance
reward
or
9
procurement
as
a
four
category,
which
means
you
10
can't
buy
nothing,
until
the
fair
share
objective
11
negotiation
process
has
been
complete.
That's
a
12
very
important
provision.
It's
a
new
provision.
I
13
am
making
sure
everybody
is
aware,
this
is
what
we
14
are
proposing,
what
we
want
to
go
forward
with
to
15
make
sure
that
the
goal
is
actually
in
place
and
16
negotiated,
okay?

17
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
That
is
for
the
grantee.

18
MS.
PATRICK:
For
the
grantees.
It's
also
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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1­
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19
important
to
point
out,
the
cost
of
preparing
an
20
availability
analysis
for
the
disparity
studies
to
21
support
your
goal
may
be
­­
we
don't
know,
a
22
hundred
percent;
it
would
have
to
be
worked
out
on
23
a
case
by
case
basis
talking
to
your
grant
24
specialists
who
determine
this
­­
but
you
may
be
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxix
110
1
grant
eligible,
depending
on
specific
fact
2
situation.
You
have
to
look
at
that
to
find
out
3
what
the
confinds
of
your
grant
are
to
find
out
if
4
possible,
if
those
expenses
can
be
grant
eligible.

5
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We,
most
likely,
will
not
pay
6
for
a
disparity
study.
Your
grant
is
probably
not
7
enough
to
cover
the
cost
of
the
disparity
study,

8
what
they
cost,
but
there
may
be
places
where,
in
9
coming
up
with
some
of
your
availability
analysis,

10
that
that
may
be
grant
eligible.
May
be.
It's
on
11
a
case­
by­
case
basis.

12
Lynn.

13
MS.
LYNN
DONLEY:
Well,
understanding
that
it
14
is
on
a
case­
by­
case
basis,
I
am
sure
it
would
be
15
helpful
to
provide,
perhaps,
an
illustrative
16
example.
What
fact
pattern
might
raise
the
17
possibility
of
being
able
to
use
the
grant
money
to
18
pay
for
those
studies?
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxx
19
MS.
PATRICK:
I
have
absolutely
no
idea.

20
MS.
DONLEY:
Okay.

21
MS.
PATRICK:
We
were
just
told
as
a
quick
22
answer
by
grants
people
that
it
is
possible.
What
23
that
possible
situation
is,
I
have
no
earthly
idea.

24
But
it
is
something
we
can
look
into
to
find
out
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxi
111
1
what
type
of
things
would
be
possible.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
think
in
areas
where
you
3
will
have
a
recipient
that
receives
multiple
grants
4
from
EPA,
and
you
have
these
goals
that
have
to
be
5
negotiated,
you
may
be
able
to
spread
the
cost
of
6
the
availability
analysis
over
those
grants
to
7
cover
the
availability
analysis.

8
Again,
we
have
to
get
back
with
the
9
program
office,
because
this
very
well
may
­­
it
10
doesn't
mean
you
are
going
to
get
more
money.
You
11
may
still
get
the
same
amount,
and
so
the
juggle
12
here
is
how
much
do
you
take
from
the
technical
13
side
for
the
administrative.
Because
that
probably
14
will
be
the
question
that
we
have
to
address.
Not
15
saying
you're
going
to
get
more
money
in
the
grant
16
to
cover.
You
get
a
certain
amount
of
money
for
17
the
grant,
and
you
have
to
choose
how
you're
going
18
to
spend
that,
but
if
you
are
a
grant
recipient
and
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxii
19
you
receive
several,
you
may
be
able
to
spread
that
20
across
all
of
those
if
it
applies.
And
that
is
21
something
that
we
would
have
to
take
a
look
at.

22
Yes,
ma'am.

23
MS.
YULANDA
McCARTY­
HARRIS
(
City
of
Toledo):

24
So
are
you
saying
­­
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxiii
112
1
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
What's
your
name
again?

2
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Yulanda
McCarty­
Harris.

3
I'm
with
the
City
of
Toledo.
I
see
that
you
said
4
that
this
concept
is
not
new,
although
this
is
­­

5
the
concept
is
not
new.
So
are
you
saying
that
6
this
possibly
could
exist
now?
And
I
will
go
back
7
to
the
situation
where
we
have
­­
we
have
a
WPCLF
8
loan
through
the
State
of
Ohio
which
has
a
grant
9
from
EPA.
So
is
that
grant
possibly
available
10
through
the
EPA
now
for
the
availability
analysis,

11
or
it
doesn't
exist?

12
MS.
PATRICK:
To
get
a
grant
specifically
to
13
do
an
availability
analysis
for
that
specific
14
purpose?
No.
But
if
the
recipient,
being
in
your
15
case
the
State
of
Ohio,
decides
that
it
would
like
16
to
take
a
portion
of
what
they
already
received
to
17
go
towards
doing
an
availability
analysis,
it
is
18
possible
they
can
do
that
under
the
grant
that
they
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxiv
19
currently
have
as
sort
of
an
administrative
cost.

20
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Okay.
So
we,
basically,

21
once
we
do
our
loan,
we
can
say,
we
want
a
portion
22
of
this
carved
out
for
availability
analysis?

23
MS.
PATRICK:
You
can
work
that
out.

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
You
have
to
work
that
out,
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxv
113
1
and
I
would
say,
in
advance.

2
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Okay.

3
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Not
do
it
and
then
go
back
4
and
say,
I
want
­­
no.
You
work
it
out
in
advance
5
with
the
grant
person
and
your
project
office.

6
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Okay,
great.

7
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay?

8
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Thank
you.

9
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Not
after
the
fact.

10
MS.
SHARON
GREEN:
It
would
have
to
be
in
the
11
work
plan.

12
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
In
the
work
plan.
You
can't
13
say
Ms.
Brown
told
me
I
could
do
this.
(
Laughter)

14
Yes,
sir.
Can
you
come
to
the
mic,

15
please.

16
MR.
GEORGE
STONE
(
U.
S.
Environmental
17
Protection
Agency
­
Region
V):
Also
­­

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
can't
hear
you
yet.
She
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxvi
19
can't
hear
you.

20
Mr.
Stone,
thank
you.

21
MR.
STONE:
George
Stone,
US
EPA,
in
the
22
grants
office.
Also,
that
portion
of
the
23
availability
analysis
that
will
be
used
will
have
24
to
be
related
to
that
activity,
that
specific
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxvii
114
1
grant.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
That's
right.

3
MR.
STONE:
So,
therefore,
it
would
have
to
be
4
spread
out
throughout
the
different
grants
that
you
5
receive
from
USEPA.
So
your
availability
analysis
6
administrative
charge
that
you
are
charging
to
your
7
grant
is
not
going
to
just
be
a
hundred
percent
8
charge
to
one
grant.

9
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Right.

10
MR.
STONE:
It
would
have
to
be
spread
out
11
through
the
activities
of
various
grants.
So
if
12
you
got
a
wastewater
grant,
that
portion
of
13
availability
analysis
related
to
wastewater
could
14
be
charged
to
that
portion
of
the
grant,
and
then
15
your
land
grant
or
your
air
grant,
those
portions
16
would
be
segmented
out.
Okay.
I
don't
want
you
17
to
­­
when
you
left
the
mic,
I
was
thinking
that
18
you
believed
that
a
hundred
percent
of
the
grant
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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19
could
be
discharged
for
availability
analysis
­­

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
No.

21
MR.
STONE:
­­
under
a
given
program.

22
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
No.

23
MR.
STONE:
That's
not
right.

24
MS.
YULANDA
McCARTY­
HARRIS
(
City
of
Toledo):
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxix
115
1
Just
a
portion
of
each
grant
­­

2
MR.
STONE:
Just
the
portion
that
is
related
3
to
that
­­

4
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
That
related
to
the
area
5
that
you
want
to
do
the
availability
analysis
on?

6
MR.
STONE:
That's
correct.

7
MS.
McCARTY­
HARRIS:
Okay.

8
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
But
if
you
do
that
right,
by
9
the
time
you
finish,
depending
on
what
kind
of
10
grantee
and
the
number
of
grants
you
get,
it
may
be
11
paid
for
by
your
grant
money.

12
MS.
PATRICK:
And
it
may
be
a
good
idea
for
13
you
to
contact
other
entities
in
the
state
that
are
14
receiving
EPA
money
and
saying,
"
Hey,
don't
you
15
want
to
get
on
board
this
and
use
a
percentage
of
16
what
you
get
to
go
towards
this,"
because
if
all
of
17
you
gang
up,
because
the
availability
analysis
18
would
sort
of
­­
it
would
benefit
all
of
you.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxx
19
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
If
they
­­

20
MS.
PATRICK:
If
you
could
do
one.

21
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
If
they
­­

22
MS.
PATRICK:
Have
a
common
goal
to
negotiate
23
it.

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
If
they
are
the
lead
agent.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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for
Discussion
Purposes
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxxi
116
1
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
they
may
not
necessarily
3
be.

4
MS.
PATRICK:
And
even
if
you
don't
do
the
5
agency,
we
have
a
situation
where
we
will
negotiate
6
a
goal
directly
with
the
individual
entities.

7
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Right.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
So
you
don't
have
to
operate
9
under
the
lead
agency.
But
there
is
a
way
to
do
10
it,
to
structure
it
to
make
it
worth
your
energy.

11
The
next
thing
is
that
the
improved
fair
12
share
goals
remain
in
effect
for
three
fiscal
13
years.
If
significant
changes
occur
during
that
14
three­
year
time
period
making
the
data
that
your
15
goals
were
based
upon
obsolete,
a
recipient
of
EPA
16
will
have
to
renegotiate
those
goals.
Okay?

17
Determining
fair
share
goals
is
18
something
we've
already
pretty
much
talked
about.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxxii
19
It
cannot
be
based
on
the
availability
analysis
or
20
disparity
study,
looking
at
your
relevant
21
geographic
area
and
what
businesses
are
available
22
to
do
the
work.

23
And
­­

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
are
not
asking
the
grant
Mason
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Associates,
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June
2005
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Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxxiii
117
1
recipients
to
redefine
what
your
relevant
area
of
2
work
is.
We
are
asking
you
to
show
and
to
3
demonstrate
what
your
current
practices
are.
Where
4
do
you
go
to
define
your
contacts?
That
is
your
5
geographic
area.
We
are
not
saying,
because
I
6
think
I
heard
earlier,
and
I
am
not
sure
if
there
7
is
a
misunderstanding.
We
are
not
limiting
you
to
8
where
you
can
go.
We
are
telling
you
to
define
for
9
us
what
your
practice
is
already.
And
then
from
10
that,
you
determine
what
your
geographic
location
11
is.

12
If,
for
example,
if
the
state
of
Chicago
13
has
­­
(
laughter)
I
mean
the
State
of
Michigan
­­

14
I'm
sorry,
I
know
there's
a
difference.
If
the
15
State
of
Michigan
­­
if
the
State
of
Michigan,

16
because
of
how
vast
and
how
large
it
is,
you
have
17
an
upper
and
lower,
kind
of,
area,
well,
up
here
18
you
go
someplace
else
and
go
over
to
other
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxxiv
19
neighboring
states
to
draw
from
your
pool
for
20
contractors
to
come,
Ohio
and
other
places,
then
21
that's
what
you
consider.
And
we're
not
saying
22
that
you
can't
go
someplace
else.
What
is
your
23
current
practice
that
you
use
to
draw
from?
Where
24
is
your
current
pool
of
contractors
coming
from?
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
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Study
1­
ccxxxv
118
1
That's
what
you
need
to
factor
in.

2
Okay.
We
are
not
saying
you
can't
­­
if
3
you
go
all
over,
I
mean,
if
we're
in
Washington,

4
DC,
people
come
from
New
York,
from
North
Carolina,

5
from
Georgia,
depending
on
the
type
of
work
to
do
6
work
in
D.
C.
If
that's
what
you
do,
then
that's
7
what
your
geographical
area
should
be
considered.

8
But
you
have
to
tell
us.
We
are
not
telling
you
9
what
that
is.
We
will
look
at
it.
And
we
want
to
10
see
how
you
came
up
with
it,
and
documentation
to
11
support
how
you
came
up
with
it,
but
you
have
to
12
tell
us
what
that
is.

13
MS.
PATRICK:
The
next
thing
is
under
G,
race
14
and
gender
conscious
efforts
­
to
the
extent
good
15
faith
efforts
prove
to
be
inadequate
to
achieve
the
16
fair
share
goals
of
MBEs
and
WBEs,
we
encourage
a
17
recipient
or
prime
contractor
to
take
responsible
18
race
and/
or
gender
conscience
action
to
the
extent
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Only
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Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxxvi
19
necessary
to
more
closely
achieve
their
fair
share
20
goals,
including
price
incentives
and
technical
21
evaluation
credits.
Prior
notification
of
the
22
contemplated
actions
of
EPA
is
required.
Okay?

23
The
next
thing
is
Exemptions.
We're
24
proposing
to
exempt
recipients
of
an
EPA
financial
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
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2005
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Disparity
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1­
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119
1
assistance
agreement
in
the
amount
of
$
250,000
or
2
less
for
a
single
assistance
agreement,
or
of
more
3
than
one
financial
assistance
agreement
with
a
4
combined
total
of
$
250,000
or
less
in
any
one
5
fiscal
year
from
the
fair
share
negotiations
6
requirements.

7
These
are
the
exemptions
Jeanette
talked
8
about
at
the
beginning,
when
she
said
there
are
9
some
that
we're
building
in,
but
it
is
only
10
exempting
them
from
negotiations,
not
from
11
reporting,
not
from
the
six
good
faith
efforts.

12
That
is
very
important
that
you
understand
that.

13
That
same
$
250,000
exemption
also
14
applies
to
the
Brownfields
Program
and
the
Safe
15
Drinking
Water
Act
Program
and
all
of
the
loan
16
programs,
as
well.
That
same
exemption
applies.

17
We
also
have
­­
we
also
have
exemptions
18
that
are
specific
to
tribes
and
intertribal
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxxviii
19
consortia.
That
is
that
grants
that
are
PPG
20
eligible,
which
includes
17
different
grant
21
categories,
two
tribes
will
be
exempted
from
22
negotiations,
as
well
as
tag
grants
to
tribes
also
23
are
exempted
from
negotiations.
Regardless
as
to
24
the
dollar
amount.
Okay?
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxxxix
120
1
Also,
specific
to
tribes
and
insularies
2
and
trust
territory,
there
is
a
three­
year
phase­
in
3
period
for
the
rule,
primarily
because
we
have
4
never
negotiated
goals
with
these
entities
before,

5
and
they
are
completely
new
to
that
process.
And
6
so
we're
doing
a
three­
year
phase­
in
period
to
get
7
them
up
to
speed,
move
on
to
education
and
make
8
sure
they
understand
what
the
expectations
are,

9
particularly,
what
we
do
in
negotiations
of
a
fair
10
share
objective.

11
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
The
other
piece
to
that,

12
because
we
do
have
someone
from
the
tribe
here,
one
13
from
the
tribe
here
­­

14
(
Chorus
of
"
she
left.")

15
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Did
she
leave?

16
MS.
PATRICK:
She
will
be
back
tomorrow?

17
FROM
THE
FLOOR:
She
is
coming
back
tomorrow.

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxl
19
MS.
PATRICK:
We
will
hold
that
for
her.

20
Next
thing
is
recordkeeping
and
21
reporting.
A
recipient
of
a
continuing
educational
22
program
grant
or
other
annual
grant
will
be
23
subject
­­
will
be
required
to
create
and
maintain
24
a
bidders
list.
Such
a
list
must
be
kept
only
­­
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Disparity
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1­
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121
1
must
only
be
kept
until
the
grant
project
period
2
has
expired
and
the
recipient
is
no
longer
3
receiving
funding
under
the
grant.

4
In
addition,
a
recipient
under
EPA's
5
financial
assistance
agreement,
to
capitalize
on
6
the
revolving
loan
funds
­­
that
is
another
word
7
for
our
loan
programs,
brown
bills,
blah,
blah,

8
blah
­­
also
must
require
entities
receiving
9
identified
loans,
to
create
and
maintain
a
bidder's
10
list
if
the
loan
­­
list
if
the
loan
recipient
is
11
subject
to
or
chooses
to
follow
competitive
bidding
12
requirements.

13
The
purpose
of
a
bidders
list
is
to
14
provide
the
recipient
and
entities
receiving
15
identified
loans
who
conduct
competitive
bidding
16
with
as
accurate
of
a
database
as
possible
about
17
the
universe
of
MBE/
WBE
and
nonMBE/
WBE
prime
and
18
subcontractors.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxlii
19
Such
a
list
must
be
kept
only
for
the
20
project
period
for
that
identified
loan
has
ended.

21
Recipients
are
required
to
comply
with
the
22
recordkeeping
requirements
even
if
they
are
exempt
23
from
applying
from
­­
negotiating
the
fair
share
24
objective
requirements.
That's
very
important.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxliii
122
1
We
have
experienced
a
lot
of
comment
2
about
the
bidders
list,
particularly
when
we
were
3
in
Atlanta.
People
were
asking,
well,
what
4
information
do
you
want
to
capture?
What
do
you
5
want
on
that
list?

6
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
What
is
your
definition
of
a
7
bidders
list?

8
MS.
PATRICK:
Because
we
realize
that
9
definition
varies
in
different
areas,
and
that's
10
something
that
we
are
looking
at
and
we
want
to
11
receive
more
comments
on.
So
we
make
sure
we
are
12
capturing
or
having
a
recipient
capture
real
13
relevant
information
so
when
you're
developing
the
14
comments
that
you
may
want
to
do
in
writing
and
15
submit
to
us,
please
keep
that
in
mind.
We
are
16
specifically
looking
for
comments
about
what
things
17
you
all
would
like
to
see
on
the
bidders
list
as
18
well
as
things
we
are
thinking
about.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxliv
19
Okay.
The
next
thing
­­
we're
20
obviously,
we're
at
the
bottom.
We
are
excited,
we
21
are
going
to
have
some
time
left
­­
is
waivers.
We
22
built
in
a
specific
rule
on
the
possibility
a
23
director
can
have
­­
can
grant
waivers
from
any
24
requirements
of
Part
33
that
are
not
based
on
the
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxlv
123
1
statute
or
Executive
Order.

2
To
give
you
an
idea
of
things
that
she
3
could
not
make
waivers
from,
can't
waiver
reporting
4
and
she
cannot
waiver
the
six
good
faith
efforts,

5
just
to
give
you
an
idea.
When
we
say
they
don't
6
go
away,
even
the
director
can't
take
them
away.

7
So
don't
come
asking
for
an
exemption
from
them
8
because
it
is
not
going
to
work.
Okay?

9
The
next
step.
I
want
to
let
you
all
10
know
how
you
can
make
your
comments
in
writing,
so
11
if
you're
here
today
and
you
were
shy
about
the
mic
12
or
you
couldn't
get
in
a
word
edge­
wise
because
13
Lance
was
always
there
(
laughter)
­­

14
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Sorry,
Lance.

15
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
then
we
have
a
way
for
you
to
16
make
your
comments
in
writing.
If
you
would
17
turn
­­
I
don't
know
if
you
all
have
the
full
text
18
of
the
rule
in
your
packet.
If
not,
I
am
not
sure
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxlvi
19
what's
in
your
packet.

20
Yes,
you
do
have
it.
If
you
turn
to
the
21
second
page,
which
is
page
43825,
it
starts
with
22
the
top
column,
B,
how
and
to
whom
do
I
submit
23
comments.
If
you
highlight
or
circle
that
section
24
in
your
actual
rule,
it
lists
all
the
different
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxlvii
124
1
ways
we
will
accept
comments.
We
will
take
them
by
2
mail,
by
e­
mail,
online,
and
they
all
go
directly
3
to
the
docket
system.
Do
not
mail
your
comments
4
directly
to
me.

5
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Or
me.
(
Laughter)

6
MS.
PATRICK:
If
you
mail
them
to
us,
we
will
7
forward
them,
but
if
you
want
to
get
them
at
the
8
right
place,
they
should
go
to
the
docket
people
at
9
EPA
because
they
handle
all
of
this
in
terms
of
10
gathering
that
information.
And
the
way
to
contact
11
them
is
all
listed
here.
So
really
pay
attention
12
to
this.
If
you
do
it
electronically,
it
will
make
13
our
lives
a
lot
easier.
Because
even
if
you
send
14
it
in
in
writing,
all
they
are
going
to
do
is
turn
15
around
and
reduce
it
to
electronics
and
put
it
in
16
the
docket.

17
So
that's
a
very
easy
way
to
submit
your
18
comments.
And
we
really,
really
want
your
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxlviii
19
comments.
Because
as
this
thing
goes
forward,
we
20
don't
want
anybody
to
say,
well,
no
one
asked
me
21
about
that.
That's
why
we
are
going
across
the
22
country
and
making
sure
we
are
having
these
23
discussions
with
everybody.

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Just
as
vocal
as
you
all
have
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxlix
125
1
been
today
­­
and
we
welcome
that.
We
are
big
2
girls.
We
can
handle
it.
We
want
you
to
put
your
3
comments
in
writing.
And
I
would
strongly
suggest
4
that.

5
MS.
PATRICK:
The
comment
period
right
now
­­

6
what
was
your
question?
I
want
to
make
sure
I
7
heard
you
correctly.

8
FROM
THE
FLOOR:
The
deadline.

9
MS.
PATRICK:
Yes.
The
comment
period
closes
10
January
the
20th,
however,
we
are
extending
that
11
comment
period.
If
you
look
after
your
federal
12
register
notice,
the
next
week
or
two,
you
are
13
going
to
see
that
we
are
going
to
try
to
extend
it
14
to
February
28,
the
last
day
of
February,
because
15
we
had
to
add
one
more
hearing.
We
are
going
to
16
Alaska,
but
we're
not
going
until
February.
So
we
17
want
to
make
sure
they
have
the
opportunity
to
make
18
their
comments,
as
well,
before
the
official
period
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccl
19
closes.
So
I'm
giving
you
advance
notice.
It
is
20
actually
going
to
be
until
February
28th,
okay.

21
Yes,
ma'am.

22
MS.
AMY
CROWE
(
Metropolitan
Water
Reclamation
23
District
of
Greater
Chicago):
Do
you
have
a
look
24
ahead
as
far
as
the
date
when
you're
going
to
put
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccli
126
1
all
this
together
and
publish
it
for
final?

2
MS.
PATRICK:
We
are
hoping
­­
it
truly
3
depends
on
the
volume
of
comments
we
receive.
So
4
far
it
is
looking
pretty
good
that
we
can
get
5
through
pretty
quickly
because
people
really
6
haven't
given
a
lot
of
comments.
However,
I
think
7
Chicago
is
going
to
be
a
turning
point
for
that.

8
We
are
going
to
get
a
lot
of
comments,
and
I'm
glad
9
about
that.
It
gives
us
something
to
work
with.

10
We
are
hoping
by
the
time
we
go
through
11
comments
and
back
to
EPA
internal
process,
we
have
12
to
go
through
getting
all
these
concurrent
and
13
stuff
all
over
again.

14
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Various
programs.

15
MS.
PATRICK:
My
hope
is
that
within
a
year,

16
it
can
be
done.

17
MS.
CROWE:
Okay.

18
MS.
PATRICK:
But
I'm
a
very
optimistic
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclii
19
person.
I
really
am.
And
so
that
is
my
best
20
optimistic,
you
know,
determination
on
that.

21
MS.
CROWE:
One
thing
that
came
up
during
the
22
discussion
a
couple
minutes
ago
was
about
23
performance
bonding.
The
ordinance
at
the
Water
24
District
has
remedial
provisoin
that
we've
had
for
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccliii
127
1
many,
many
years
that
protects
minority
and
women
2
businesses
from
being
denied
subcontract
solely
on
3
the
basis
of
their
inability
to
get
a
bond.
And
so
4
basically
all
that
means
is
that
we
go
to
the
prime
5
contractor,
the
prime
contractor
produces
a
6
performance
bond,
and
they
are
restricted
and
told
7
not
to
deny
a
contract
to
minority
or
women
8
business.
But
they
bond
the
job
anyway.
So
we
9
have
included
that
in
our
ordinance
as
a
remedial
10
provision
because
that
is
a
problem
looking
for
a
11
bond.

12
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And,
ma'am,
you
are
going
to
13
send
us
your
entire
­­
is
this
it,
that
you
gave
14
me?

15
MS.
CROWE:
That
is
the
resolution
and
16
ordinance.

17
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.

18
MS.
CROWE:
I
gave
you
two
pieces
­­
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccliv
19
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.

20
MS.
CROWE:
­­
but
you
said
you
were
going
to
21
take
care
of
it.

22
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Yes,
I
am.

23
MS.
CROWE:
I
am
going
to
do
it,
too,
but
in
24
the
meantime,
you
can
help
me,
and
I
will
help
you.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Disparity
Study
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1
One
way
or
the
other,
we
will
get
it
in
there.

2
MS.
PATRICK:
I
have
a
question.
Do
you
want
3
your
ordinance
to
also
go
to
the
docket?

4
MS.
CROWE:
I
would
appreciate
that.

5
MS.
PATRICK:
No
problem,
I
will
just
forward
6
it
on
or
I
will
just
mail
or
scan
it
in.

7
MS.
CROWE:
That
would
be
great,
because
we
8
make
constant
reference
to
our
ordinance.

9
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.
And
we
don't
­­

10
MS.
CROWE:
All
right.

11
MS.
PATRICK:
And
another
thing
we
are
going
12
to
need
before
we
go
in,
do
you
have
a
business
13
card,
because
there
is
nothing
­­
we're
going
to
14
want
to
know
the
name
of
your
organization
and
15
reference,
and
I
don't
see
it
on
the
comments
here.

16
So
we
need
that.
They
docket
at
least
the
name
of
17
the
organization.
If
you
want
to.
Another
18
thing
­­
I'm
sorry.
You
can
do
this
anonymously,
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclvi
19
as
well.
Your
name
doesn't
have
to
be
involved.

20
But
do
you
want
to
be
anonymous,
or
do
you
want
21
them
to
know?

22
MS.
CROWE:
I
can't
be
anonymous
at
this
point
23
in
my
life.
(
Laughter)

24
MS.
DONLEY:
Kimberly,
you
can
always
identify
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Disparity
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1­
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129
1
that
as
­­
what
is
this,
state
or
municipality?

2
Ordinance
that
addresses
the
particular
issue.

3
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Yes,
sir,
Josh.

4
MR.
JOSHUA
BUNKER
(
State
of
Minnesota):
Joshua
5
Bunker,
Minnesota's
Pollution
Control
Agency.
I
6
know
we
have
been
kind
of
having
public
comments
7
throughout
the
entire
time
and
I've
been
holding
8
off
while
some
contractors
and
subcontractors
have
9
been
taking
care
of
business.

10
I
would
like
to
first
share
with
you
a
11
couple
pieces.
I
don't
intend
to
go
through
these
12
entire
six
pages.
They
are
kind
of
preliminary,

13
comments
from
Minnesota.
First
of
all,
a
14
disclaimer.
I
didn't
write
the
state
laws.
I'm
15
just
a
representative.
(
Laughter)
I
am
not
the
16
governor.
I
don't
have
the
executive
type
of
17
authorities
to
change
things.
I
am
just
telling
18
you
like
it
is
right
now
as
I
see
it
from
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclviii
19
Minnesota's
Pollution
Control
Agency.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.

21
MR.
BUNKER:
And
how
this
process
could
affect
22
our
business
and
certainly
then
as
procurement
goes
23
under
our
grant
agreements,
then
they
would
affect
24
the
majority
of
the
rest
of
you
in
this
room.
And
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Name
Disparity
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1­
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130
1
I
am
going
to
hop
and
skip
though
this.
And
so
2
that
is
why
I
want
to
give
you
a
copy
of
this.
And
3
certainly
if
anyone
would
like
to
comment
for
the
4
state
statutes,
I
can
direct
you
to
those
places,

5
also.

6
State
procurement
systems,
toward
the
7
bottom
of
page
1,
I
just
wanted
to
comment
that
it
8
is
not
fully
apparent
within
the
proposed
language
9
whether
or
not
EPA
intends
to
recognize
existing
10
state
procurement
systems
that
comply
with
state
11
law
for
the
purpose
of
this
proposed
rule
and
its
12
amendments
to
existing
regulation.
The
last
13
paragraph
states
that,
in
this
part,
subpart
36,
it
14
is
amended
by
removing
it.
And
the
language
in
15
there
states
that
when
procuring
property
and
16
services
under
a
grant,
a
state
will
follow
the
17
same
policies
and
procedures
it
uses
for
18
procurements
from
its
nonfederal
funds.
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
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1­
cclx
19
So
this
change
would
effectively
remove
20
the
ability
for
states
to
rely
upon
their
existing
21
systems
for
compliance
with
the
EPA
proposed
rule
22
under
part
41.
However,
there
remains
a
conflict
23
in
language
in
part
35,
subpart
936­
2,
that
says
24
granting
procurement
systems,
grantees
may
use
Mason
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Associates,
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Disparity
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1­
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131
1
their
own
procurement
systems
and
procedures,
which
2
meet
applicable
requirements
of
state
and
territory
3
laws,
so
that
language
remains
within
part
35.

4
That
wasn't
excluded.

5
MS.
PATRICK:
Wait.
We
don't
view
it
as
6
inconsistent.
We
don't
view
it
as
saying
that
the
7
grantee
cannot
use
its
current.
In
fact,
we
8
encourage
it.
Whatever
your
procurement
systems
9
are,
we
can't
really,
you
know,
get
into
that.

10
That's
what
they
are.

11
And
so
what
we
were
saying
is,
you
have
12
to
use
the
same
policies
and
procedures
that
you
13
use
for
all
of
your
procurements.
So
it
was
14
whatever
the
state
can
set
up,
whatever
it
is
your
15
procurement
in
Minnesota,
we
want
you
to
use
that.

16
So
that
there
is
not
a
difference
in
that.
It
is
17
actually
being
interpreted
as
to
not
be
in
conflict
18
with
that
other
statute.
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
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Disparity
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1­
cclxii
19
MR.
BUNKER:
On
the
face
of
that,
of
that
20
information
in
the
proposed
rule,
it
appears
that
21
you
are
saying
states
are
no
longer
able
to
use
22
their
existing
systems
which
comply
with
state
23
laws.

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.
Thank
you.
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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for
Discussion
Purposes
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Disparity
Study
1­
cclxiii
132
1
MR.
BUNKER:
That's
where
a
large
number
of
2
states,
especially
in
Region
V,
where
a
number
have
3
challenge
with
the
proposed
information.

4
This
is
becoming
a
much
happier
day
5
(
laughter)
in
Minnesota.
Well,
great,
I
will
skip
6
on
through,
but
would
love
to
see
that
­­

7
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
In
writing
clarify.

8
MR.
BUNKER:
­­
where
you
describe,
please.

9
Because,
if
not,
and
just
to
let
the
rest
of
the
10
room
know
what
is
going
on,
is
that
the
state
11
doesn't
have
the
resources
or
the
ability
to
do
12
things
outside
of
existing
systems.
And
so
if
we
13
then
say
that
we
need
to
certify
specific
to
the
14
part
itself,
we
lose
our
ability
to
start
to
get
15
into
certifying,
let
alone
the
kind
of
processes
as
16
they
stand.

17
In
33,
part
106,
at
the
bottom
of
page
18
2,
the
language
states
the
recipients
must
ensure
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxiv
19
that
each
procuring
contract
awards
contains
the
20
terms
and
conditions
that
would
be
included
in
the
21
appendix
suggesting
it
isn't
clear
whether
the
term
22
and
condition
must
be
included
in
pass­
through
23
agreements.

24
MS.
PATRICK:
In
what
agreements?
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Disparity
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1­
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133
1
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Pass­
through.

2
MR.
BUNKER:
In
pass­
through
agreements
which
3
are
not
directly
benefiting
the
recipient
and
4
therefore
not
always
viewed
as
procurement
related
5
so
they
would
be
assistance,
passing
through
grants
6
projects
where
the
subrecipients
would
be
the
7
primary
beneficiaries,
our
system
doesn't
8
necessarily
recognize
it
all
the
time
as
9
procurement.
And,
therefore,
it's
a
question
of
10
whether
or
not
the
rest
of
the
language
in
the
part
11
would
follow
pass­
through
agreements,
as
stated
by
12
this
information.

13
Secondly,
in
that
same
subpart,
in
No.

14
2,
the
suggestion,
I
believe
it
should
clearly
15
place
the
responsibility
on
the
loan
recipients,

16
not
the
initial
recipients
concerning
the
terms
and
17
conditions
are
included
in
all
sublevel
18
procurement.
As
the
language
states
right
now,
I
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxvi
19
could
certainly
write
into
a
contract
the
language
20
that
is
included
in
the
appendix
to
this
part,
but,

21
for
me,
then,
to
monitor
it
and
ensure
that
the
22
subrecipients
also
stated
that
would
be
overly
23
burdensome
for
the
states,
other
than
just
writing
24
in
the
contract
and
saying
you
must
include.
For
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxvii
134
1
the
recipient
to
have
to
deal
with
that
second
tier
2
in
their
contractual
language,
that
would
be
a
3
challenge.

4
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Did
you
all
hear
that?

5
MS.
SHARON
GREEN:
Still
got
to
do
it.

6
MS.
DONLEY:
It
is
the
policing
issues
that
we
7
have
all
over
the
board,
and
it
is
going
to
come
8
down
to
making
sure
everybody
knows
what
the
9
requirements
are
all
the
way
down,
so
that
at
the
10
very
bottom
someone
is
not
seeing
those
11
requirements
met,
they
can
make
a
complaint.
And
12
during
the
break,
it
was
suggested
to
me
and
in
the
13
Office
of
Regional
Counsel,
because
these
are
14
federal
funds,
these
types
of
complaints
may
be
15
appropriate
for
our
Office
of
Inspector
General,

16
which
may
be
a
shortcut
through
the
morass
of
oh,

17
gee,
you
have
a
recourse
with
a
huge
class
action
18
complaint,
which
is
nobody's
quick
guarantee
of
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxviii
19
success.

20
MS.
PATRICK:
And
the
IG
­­

21
MR.
BUNKER:
But
in
this
section,
if
you
name
22
the
subrecipient
as
being
responsible
for
including
23
that
language
for
their
subcontractors,
it's
much
24
stronger
than
for
my
level
of
the
state
to
say,
you
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxix
135
1
must
include
the
rest
of
these
pieces.

2
On
page
3,
subpart
201
A,
at
the
end
of
3
that
first
paragraph,
it
says,
the
section
states
4
that
the
entity
must
be
properly
certified,
period.

5
Suggesting
to
include
language
as
defined
by
the
6
subpart
or
something
else
or
else
you
were
going
to
7
get
other
people
saying
I
am
certified.

8
Page
4,
subpart
212,
can
a
private
9
certified
charge
a
fee
to
an
entity
to
process
the
10
MBE's
application
for
certification?
Question:
If
11
EPA,
itself,
would
not
charge
a
fee
for
certifying
12
MBEs
and
WBEs,
if
carried
out
their
certification
13
activities,
why,
then,
would
it
be
acceptable
for
14
EPA
to
avoid
certifying
and
place
private
15
certifiers
in
its
place
and
charge
a
fee
to
people
16
who
are
already
economically
disadvantaged
17
individuals
and/
or
businesses
to
pay
those
18
additional
fees?
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxx
19
Continuing
on
(
laughter),
toward
the
top
20
of
page
5,
subpart
302
A,
this
is
a
question
of
the
21
time
that
it
should
take
for
payments
for
primes
22
and
to
pass
them
on
to
subcontractors.

23
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Uh­
huh.

24
MR.
BUNKER:
States
would
love
to
hear
­­
I
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
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136
1
should
say,
my
office
would
love
to
hear
any
2
consensus,
suggestion
on
amount
of
time.
That
3
would
just
be
very
helpful
if
that
can
come
out.

4
If
not,
then
you
rely
upon
a
lot
of
environmental
5
program
people
to
drive
business
practices
and
that
6
might
not
be
the
best
place
to
put
responsibility.

7
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
think
you
can
take
back
to
8
the
state
and
look
at
what
was
suggested
here.

9
MR.
BUNKER:
7
to
10.

10
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
7
to
10.

11
MR.
BUNKER:
I
will
be
happy
to
do
that.

12
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
have
had
15
and
we've
also
13
had
30.
And
one
place
also
had,
I
think
it
said
45
14
at
the
longest,
but
we've
heard
anywhere
from
3,
7
15
to
10,
15,
30,
45.

16
MR.
BUNKER:
I
can
bring
those
back,
but
being
17
state
government.

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
will
say,
it
will
be
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxii
19
specific.

20
MR.
BUNKER:
Okay.
Toward
the
bottom
of
21
page
5,
subpart
404,
when
it
is
talking
about
22
recipients
have
a
particular
number
of
days
to
get
23
their
fair
share
objectives,
to
the
question,
what
24
would
happen
if
the
recipient
did
not
submit
its
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
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Study
1­
cclxxiii
137
1
information
within
the
period
of
time,
other
than
2
an
inability
to
expend
funds
on
procurement,

3
especially
if
your
assistance
agreement
was
only
4
for
salary
costs?

5
MS.
PATRICK:
Well,
if
the
agreement
is
only
6
for
salary
costs,
the
program
doesn't
kick
in
7
anyway.
So
we
are
­­
we
are
fine
with
you.
You
8
can
go
forward
and
do
what
you
want.

9
MR.
BUNKER:
Go
around
and
it
will
kick
in
10
anyway?

11
MS.
PATRICK:
The
second
you
go
­­
you
need
to
12
talk
to
us.

13
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
you
can't
spend
it.
And
14
we
have
­­
I
don't
think
this
was
­­
was
this
one
15
of
the
reasons
where
we
looked
at
stop
paying?
I
16
mean,
We've
done
it.
We've
done
it.

17
MS.
DONLEY:
Yes,
it
was
for
Minnesota.

18
(
Laughter)
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxiv
19
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
And
then
they
hurried
up
and
20
got
on
board
with
what
needed
to
be
done.
But
the
21
program
doesn't
kick
in,
Josh,
unless
you
go
out
22
and
buy
something.
If
they
decide
to
use
it
on
23
salaries
­­

24
MS.
PATRICK:
All
on
salaries.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxv
138
1
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
­­
and
nothing
but
salaries,

2
then
the
program
doesn't
kick
in.
If
you
decide
to
3
do
it
with
people
already
on
state
government
4
payroll,
the
program
does
not
kick
in.
That's
your
5
choice.

6
MR.
BUNKER:
I
will
just
leave
that
hanging,

7
of
course,
since
I
can't
speak
anything
otherwise.

8
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
I
will
come
talk
to
you
a
9
little
bit
later.

10
MR.
BUNKER:
All
right.

11
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you.

12
MR.
BUNKER:
In
page
6,
subpart
501
B,
the
13
recordkeeping
requirements
of
this
part,
if
the
14
fair
share
objectives
are
part
of
the
main
focus
on
15
minority
and
women's
business
enterprise,
why
is
16
this
rule
concerned
with
small
businesses,
hub
zone
17
businesses,
SBRAs
and
SRAs?

18
MS.
PATRICK:
The
term
DBE,
once
we
switch
­­
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxvi
19
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Is
for
all
of
that.

20
MS.
PATRICK:
­­
is
going
to
encompass
all
of
21
that.
That
is
why
we're
not
even
calling
it
the
22
WME/
WBE
program
anymore,
because
it
is
going
to
23
include
everything.

24
MR.
BUNKER:
But
our
reporting
requirements,
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Disparity
Study
1­
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139
1
the
disparity
analysis
­­

2
MS.
PATRICK:
Once
the
rule
­­

3
MR.
BUNKER:
­­
the
forms,
everything
else
is
4
currently
strictly
MBE/
WBE
­­

5
MS.
PATRICK:
Right.

6
MR.
BUNKER:
­­
for
reporting.
Are
all
those
7
pieces
going
to
change?
Are
we
going
to
have
to
8
pay
attention
to
those
DBEs
that
are
listed
within
9
these
parts
and
the
forms
will
change?

10
MS.
PATRICK:
The
forms
are
going
to
have
to
11
change
once
the
rule
goes
final.
I
believe
that
is
12
something
we
already
sort
of
discussed
with
our
13
coordinator
saying,
we
brought
that
same
point
14
going
to
have
to
reflect
some
different
things
15
asked
for
this
reporting,
because
the
term
doesn't
16
change.
That
is
something
that
we
are
dealing
17
with.

18
MR.
BUNKER:
In
the
language
that
in
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxviii
19
calculating
fair
share
objectives,
that
language
20
doesn't
seem
specific
enough,
then,
to
say
they
21
actually
are
dealing
with
other
than
MBEs
or
WBEs.

22
I
didn't
glean
any
of
that
out
of
that
language.

23
MS.
PATRICK:
Okay.

24
MR.
BUNKER:
Just
below
it
in
subpart
502,
the
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxix
140
1
reporting
requirements.
Although
I
don't
have
it
2
written
here,
because
I
put
it
in
the
wrong
place
3
at
the
top,
as
far
as
reporting,
Minnesota
will
be
4
submitting
something
that
is
looking
to
have
an
5
exemption
for
assistance
agreements
under
a
6
particular
dollar
amount
from
reporting.
You
will
7
just
receive
it.

8
MS.
PATRICK:
That's
nice.

9
MR.
BUNKER:
And
the
observation
under
­­
I'm
10
sorry,
in
subpart
502,
reporting
requirements,
it
11
provides
that
reporting
frequency
for
EPA
form,
as,

12
quote,
except
for
recipients
of
continuing
13
environmental
program
grants,
which
report
on
an
14
annual
basis,
I
would
love
to
say
agreed
as
a
15
recipient
of
continuing
environmental
program
16
grants,
Minnesota
will
be
happy
to
report
annually.

17
(
Laughter)

18
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
That's
people
from
the
grants
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxx
19
office,
right?
(
Laughter)

20
MR.
BUNKER:
Now,
because
I
think
this
will
be
21
caught
at
some
point
after
I've
stated
that,

22
unless,
of
course,
that
is
fine
with
everybody
in
23
the
back
and
front
of
the
room.

24
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
We
got
it.
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
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Disparity
Study
1­
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141
1
MR.
BUNKER:
Okay.
And
if
that
doesn't
remain
2
in
itself,
because
there
might
be
others
that
don't
3
receive
this
EP
grants,
to
adjust
all
reporting
on
4
that
5700
52
A
to
an
annual
basis.
This
will
5
minimize
reporting
burdens
of
recipients,
reduce
6
numbers
of
no
activity
reports
submitted
to
EPA
7
regional
coordinators
and
increase
the
likelihood
8
that
submitted
reports
will
actually
include
9
manageable
MBE/
WBE
and
subsequent
groups
for
10
inclusion
in
there,
and
we,
of
course,
happily
11
report
on
all
subcontract
information
actively
12
right
now.

13
And
then
the
last
part,
comment
on
the
14
appendix
to
part
33,
the
term
and
condition.

15
Referring
back
to
the
statement
in
subpart
106,

16
which
says
recipients
must
ensure
that
each
17
procurement
contract
awards,
just
to
make
sure
that
18
is
consistent
because,
if
not,
we
are
likely
to
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxxii
19
view
only
things
termed
as
strictly
procurement.

20
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Procurement.

21
MR.
BUNKER:
As
needed
to
include
these
parts,

22
instead
of
all
activity
under
these
assistance
23
agreements
themselves
as
these
being
included
in
24
that
part.
I
will
send
you
some
of
the
­­
well,
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxxiii
142
1
not
you
directly,
but
­­

2
MS.
PATRICK:
Send
in.

3
MR.
BUNKER:
I
will
send
in.

4
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.
Thank
you,
Josh.

5
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you
very
much.

6
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Okay.
You
were
going
to
­­

7
okay,
Lance.
(
Laughter)

8
MR.
LANCE
STOKES
(
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.):

9
Lance
Stokes,
ECI
Unlimited,
Inc.,
out
of
Detroit,

10
Michigan,
environmental
engineers
and
consultants.

11
I
simply
want
to
just
speak
in
12
opposition
to
his
suggestion
for
annual
reporting.

13
We
talked
earlier
today.
We
don't
have
any
14
policing
as
it
is.
I
suggest
quarterly
reporting.

15
Why?
Simply
this.
And
if
there
is
a
money
16
problem,
use
some
of
the
money
from
the
grant,

17
include
that
in
the
grant
money
that
you
obtained
18
to
be
able
to
report
quarterly.
If
you
wait
12
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxxiv
19
months,
a
lot
of
stuff
can
happen
in
between.
So
I
20
stand
in
strong
opposition
and
be
glad
I
don't
live
21
in
Minnesota
to
that
annual
reporting.
Thank
you.

22
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you.

23
MS.
PATRICK:
Next.

24
MS.
BETH
DORIA
(
Federation
of
Women
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxxv
143
1
Contractors):
Beth
Doria,
Executive
Director
of
2
the
Federation
of
Women
Contractors.
The
3
Federation
of
Women
Contractors
is
a
membership
4
organization
comprised
of
women
who
own
and
control
5
construction
or
construction­
related
firms.

6
Membership
in
the
Chicagoland
area
is
120
women
7
business
owners
in
construction.
The
Federation
8
has
read
the
proposed
EPA
DBE
rules
and
preamble
9
thoroughly
and
support
most
aspects
of
the
proposed
10
rule
and
support
the
comments
and
recommendations
11
of
the
Metropolitan
Water
Reclamation
District's
12
comments,
as
well.

13
It
has
been
our
direct
experience
that
14
the
MWRGC
has
successfully
implemented
an
15
affirmative
action
program
that
has
made
16
significant
opportunities
available
to
minority
and
17
women
and
disadvantaged
business
owners.
It
is
one
18
of
the
oldest
and
most
successful
affirmative
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxxvi
19
action
programs
in
the
state.

20
On
the
section
on
name
change,
we
at
the
21
FWC
disagree
with
the
proposed
language
and
propose
22
the
change
be
limited
to
language
now
set
forth
in
23
the
affirmative
action
ordinance
of
the
MWRDGC.

24
On
the
section
on
certification,
we
are
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Client
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Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxxvii
144
1
thrilled
that
the
EPA
would
no
longer
accept
any
2
self
certifications
and
MWD
­­
MWDBE
certification
3
of
SBA
8A
states,
municipalities
and
private
4
certifiers
such
as
the
Chicago
Minority
Business
5
Development
Council
and
the
WBDC
Women's
Business
6
Enterprise
National
Council
certification
will
be
7
accepted
as
long
as
EPA
citizenship
requirements
8
are
met.

9
On
certification
issues,
we
also
agree
10
with
the
five
categories
of
individuals
or
group
11
who
not
­­
who
would
not
qualify
for
MW
DBE
12
certifications
on
that,
besides
criteria
are
to
be
13
based
on
NACIS
industry
standards.

14
However,
the
members
of
the
federation
15
disagree
with
the
language
related
to
the
issue
of
16
ownership
and
control.
Under
the
proposed
changes,

17
33.103,
a
DBE
is
defined
as
an
entity
owned
or
18
controlled
by
an
individual
who
is
socially
and
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxxviii
19
economically
disadvantaged
under
EPA's
8
percent
20
statute.
The
Federation
and
its
members
object
to
21
the
inclusion
of
any
entity
that
is
only
controlled
22
by
a
socially
and
economically
disadvantaged
23
individual.
Ownership
and
control
is
the
only
true
24
reflection
of
the
beneficiaries
or
the
risk
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Disparity
Study
1­
cclxxxix
145
1
bearers.
We
believe
only
those
businesses
that
are
2
owned,
operated
and
controlled
by
a
minority
or
a
3
woman
should
be
included
in
this
program.

4
We
support
the
provisions
requiring
that
5
a
personal
net
worth
cap
of
$
750,000
would
apply
to
6
be
eligible
in
the
program.
We
agree
with
the
7
proposed
provisions
on
contract
administration
and
8
are
pleased
that
the
EPA
has
outlined
these
in
9
detail.
We
are
especially
pleased
with
the
10
provision
that
required
its
prime
contractors
to
11
pay
subcontractors
for
satisfactory
performance
12
within
a
specific
number
of
days
from
the
prime
13
contractor's
receipt
of
payment
from
the
recipient
14
and
support
the
suggestion
that
subcontractors
are
15
notified
when
payment
is
made
to
primes
and
16
subsequent
payment
to
be
issued
to
the
subs
in
17
seven
to
ten
days.

18
Regarding
the
provision
on
the
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxc
19
submission
of
fair
share
goals,
the
Federation
20
supports
the
Metropolitan
Water
Reclamation
21
District
so
that
the
language
should
revert
to
the
22
language
in
the
affirmative
action
program
of
the
23
MWRDGC.

24
In
this
area
of
challenges
to
MW
DBE
Mason
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Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxci
146
1
programs
around
the
country,
the
Federation
of
2
Women
Contractors
is
especially
pleased
with
the
3
provisions
for
race
and
gender
conscious
efforts
4
and
actions
to
achieve
fair
share
goals
including
5
price
incentives.

6
Thank
you.

7
MS.
PATRICK:
Thank
you.

8
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Thank
you.
Is
there
anyone
9
else?

10
MR.
JOSHUA
BUNKER
(
State
of
Minnesota):
Joshua
11
Bunker,
private
citizen
living
in
St.
Paul,

12
Minnesota.
(
Laughter)
I
just
want
to
get
out
the
13
door.
Living
in
Minnesota.

14
FROM
THE
FLOOR:
The
land
of
Jesse
Ventura.

15
(
Laughter)

16
MR.
BUNKER:
No
longer
the
land
of
Jesse
17
Ventura.
And
as
a
member
of
the
black
community
18
looking
at
some
of
these
rule
changes,
it
is
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxcii
19
lamentable
in
some
ways
that
it
feels
like
the
onus
20
or
responsibility
across
the
board
is
on
these
21
minority
women
and
small
businesses
to
meet
the
bar
22
of
federal
regulations.
I
would
certainly
welcome
23
the
gentleman
from
Detroit
to
come
to
Minnesota
and
24
speak
up
and
have
a
voice,
because
in
many
ways,
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
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Discussion
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxciii
147
1
there
are
so
few
voices
being
heard
in
different
2
places.

3
There
are
challenges
with
state
systems
4
across
the
board,
because
state
systems
often
rely
5
upon
people
to
self
identify
in
the
system
to
be
6
able
to
engage
in
procurement.
In
Minnesota,
just
7
because
I
happen
to
know
a
little
about
that,
not
8
enough,
there
is
not
a
requirement
at
a
state
level
9
to
go
out
and
solicit
all
available
vendors
at
all
10
times.
The
business
themself
would
have
to
be
11
certified
under
state
laws,
live
or
reside
and
12
operate
within
Minnesota
unless
there
is
an
13
additional
procurement
level
added
to
a
particular
14
program
or
particular
process,
and
then,
according
15
to
state
laws,
there
would
be
a
particular
number
16
of
organizations
that
would
have
to
be
solicited,

17
and
this
is
contrary
to
the
language
that
is
18
included
in
the
fair
share
goals,
good
faith
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
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Discussion
Purposes
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Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxciv
19
positive
efforts,
however
you
might
list
these
20
pieces.

21
Because
that
is
a
proactive,
get
the
22
information
down,
whereas
state
systems
and
other
23
business
systems
more
often
react
by
saying,
well,

24
let's
see
who
we
have
in
house
right
now
and
we
Mason
Tillman
Associates,
Ltd.
June
2005
Draft
for
Discussion
Purposes
Only
Client
Name
Disparity
Study
1­
ccxcv
148
1
will
go
with
those
and
take
a
subsection
of
those
2
to
go
ahead
and
comply
with
state
law.

3
Now,
whatever
you
can
do
to
erase
my
4
name
in
any
way
(
laughter),
and
I
will
be
taking
5
this
time
that
I've
spoken
right
now
as
vacation
6
and
not
representing
my
organization
in
these
7
comments.
Thank
you
very
much.
(
Laughter
and
8
applause)

9
MR.
FREDERICK
NEWELL
(
Newell
Abatement/
Lead
10
Investigative
Services,
Inc.):
Frederick
Newell
11
with
Lead
Investigator
and
Newell
Abatement
out
of
12
St.
Paul,
Minnesota.
I
started
taking
notes
13
earlier
on
just
some
of
the
problems
that
I
noted
14
everybody
seemed
to
have
and
the
frustration
level
15
that
we
seem
to
face,
frustrated
because
the
16
system,
the
process
seems
to
be
design
to
keep
a
17
loop
and
most
of
the
money
still
goes
up
with.
So
18
I
have
been
trying
to
find
a
solution
for
this
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June
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19
problem.
Unfortunately,
I
haven't,
but
I
did
want
20
to
bring
several
points
to
bear.

21
The
percentage
of
businesses
that
does
22
not
really
seem
to
be
tracing
necessary
to
23
determine
not
only
what
businesses
go
through
but
24
what
percentage
of
their
revenue
actually
comes
Mason
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149
1
from
these
programs.
I
have
actually
been
in
2
business
since
'
95,
been
certified
with
hub
zone
3
and
most
federal
programs
all
throughout
the
state
4
programs,
and
I
have
gotten
very,
very
little
from
5
any
of
these
programs.
Actually,
what
they
do
is
6
they
take
up
more
of
my
time,
and
when
they
take
up
7
more
time,
I
am
usually
required
to
drop
them
just
8
to
go
and
get
business
for
my
business.

9
So
I
think
that
the
emphasis
has
to
be
10
not
on
just
keeping
the
process
going
and
hoping
11
that
we
get
something
out
it,
but
changing
the
12
process,
because
when
the
process
gets
this
13
frustrating,
when
they
come
in
hoping
to
hear
14
something,
as
the
gentleman
was
saying,
and
they
15
find
out
they're
saying,
well,
we
will
have
to
deal
16
with
that
in
another
meeting.
I'll
admit,
I
drove
17
all
of
last
night
just
to
get
here
and
I
almost
18
walked
out
after
I
got
here
because
I
was
expecting
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June
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19
something
based
on
the
brochures
that
was
sent
to
20
me,
saying
this
is
getting
in
with
EPA
and
getting
21
business
through
EPA.

22
But,
unfortunately,
if
we
are
back
to
23
the
grant
level
with
the
cat
groups
or
with
the
24
community
groups
who
I
have
to
work
with,
and
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150
1
that's
been
a
big
frustration
in
Minnesota,
because
2
as
he
said,
there
are
contractors
who
normally
3
always
the
state
goes
with,
just
that
level
of
4
group
that
they
are
used
to.
No
one
goes
out
and
5
finds
out
what
else
is
out
there.
And,
once
again,

6
being
certified
with
all
these
groups,
I
still
7
don't
get
an
invitation
to
the
table
or
find
out
8
later
that
the
projects
have
already
happened
and
9
that
there
was
no
one
really
monitoring
or
10
requiring
that
contractors
like
myself
be
brought
11
in.

12
So
it
puts
us
in
a
position
to
where,

13
like
I
said,
the
process
itself
takes
more
time
and
14
rewards
are
very
few.

15
I
did
want
to,
also
just
want
to
point
16
out
one
thing
on
this,
on
the
payment
schedule,
as
17
a
small
contractor
or
been
out
there
since
1995
and
18
had
to
diversify
just
to
make
sure
that
we
are
able
Mason
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June
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1­
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19
to
continue
and
have
done
so
well,
that
30
days
is,

20
and
in
my
view,
should
be
a
minimum,
not
seven
days
21
after.
Because
what
happens
is,
the
prime
22
contractor
gets
his
money
and
then
he
gets
seven
23
more
days
of
grace
period
while
I
am
paying
that
24
additional
seven
days
of
interest
on
my
money
until
Mason
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June
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1­
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151
1
I
get
money
back.
So
it's
always
based
on
the
2
calculation
of
interest
and
cost
to
the
contractor
3
and
subcontractor,
and
then
there
are
many
of
them
4
who
really
do
what
they
said,
they
will
tell
you,

5
"
I
haven't
gotten
it."
I
have
got
a
contractor
6
right
now
who's
90
days
out
and
he
keeps
saying
7
that,
"
as
soon
as
I
get
money
from
the
state,
you
8
will
get
yours."

9
MS.
PATRICK:
You
will
get
yours.

10
MR.
NEWELL:
Now,
his
eye
has
been
blackened
11
with
the
state,
but
that's
only
because
he
should
12
have
done
as
I
do
my
people.
I
don't
put
my
13
workers
off.
I
don't
put
my
subcontractors
off.

14
They
get
their
pay
according
to
when
they
do
their
15
work
and
if
I
put
them
out
30
days,
that's
only
16
because
that's
the
arrangement.
But
I,
as
a
small
17
contractor,
understand
that
everybody
do
not
have,

18
not
only
the
big
bank
account,
but
either
way
they
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June
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1­
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19
still
don't
want
to
pay
more
money
on
the
contract
20
than
what
they
expect
to
get
out
of
it.

21
So
my
encouragement
would
be
not
to
go
22
at
it
as
a
­­
so
many
days
after
but
do
the
math.

23
If
he
is
going
to
get
his
in
30
days,
the
24
subcontractor
should
get
his
in
30
days.
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152
1
Thank
you.

2
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
Sir,
I
just
wanted
to
3
comment.
In
the
information
that
went
out,
we
are
4
talking
about
doing
business
with
EPA.
How
many
of
5
you,
as
minority
businesses,
knew
that
there
was
6
another
vehicle
that
is
possibly
available
to
do
7
business
indirectly
with
EPA
prior
to
coming
here?

8
How
many
of
you
all
knew
that?

9
(
There
was
a
few
show
of
hands.)

10
DIRECTOR
BROWN:
But
for
the
most
part,
you
11
didn't.
The
money
is
green,
and
you
need
to
know
12
where
to
go
to
follow
it.
And
the
government
13
changes
how
it
is
doing
business.
You
are
going
to
14
have
to
change
how
you
do
business
if
you
want
to
15
go
after
the
money.

16
What
I
said
earlier
on
is,
$
1.2
billion
17
goes
out
of
this
agency
in
contracts.
Four
times
18
that
goes
out
of
this
agency,
$
4.2
billion
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1­
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19
annually.
And
I
have
been
at
EPA
ten
years.
It
20
wasn't
like
that
when
I
first
got
here,
but
over
21
the
course
of
time,
and
with
the
last
two
22
administrations,
we've
seen
more
being
given
to
the
23
states
and
local
governments.
You
need
to
be
able
24
to
follow
and
do
the
math.
Follow
the
money
so
you
Mason
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June
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1
know
where
to
go.
Our
intent
was
to
tell
you
that
2
this
is
available
to
you.
You
just
need
to
know
3
about
it,
find
out
and
make
connections
with
some
4
of
these
state
representatives
and
these
grantees
5
that
are
here,
so
you
can
follow
the
money
and
get
6
in
the
loop.

7
So
anyone
who
came
here,
I'm
hoping
8
you're
not
going
to
be
disappointed,
and
I'm
glad
9
you
didn't
leave,
because
now
you
have
been
given
10
more
information
in
terms
of
how
to
do
business
11
with
us,
whether
it
is
directly
or
indirectly.
And
12
I
will
still
talk
to
you
about
doing
business
with
13
us
directly,
but
as
the
money
is
shifting,
you
need
14
to
know
where
to
go
to
get
it.

15
MS.
PATRICK:
Why
don't
we
do
this.
We
have
16
an
hour
left
on
our
time
here
in
the
room.

17
(
WHEREUPON,
discussion
was
had
18
off
the
record.)
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1­
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19
MS.
PATRICK:
Why
don't
we
break
for
ten
20
minutes,
come
back,
and
Jeanette
will
talk
about
21
the
direct
procurement
opportunities
with
EPA,
and
22
we
will
have
discussion
for
an
hour.

23
(
WHEREUPON,
the
hearing
was
24
concluded
at
12:
31
p.
m.)
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154
1
STATE
OF
ILLINOIS
)

2
)
SS:

3
COUNTY
OF
DU
PAGE
)

4
I,
JACQUELINE
M.
TIMMONS,
a
Certified
5
Shorthand
Reporter
of
the
State
of
Illinois,
do
6
hereby
certify
that
I
reported
in
shorthand
the
7
proceedings
had
at
the
hearing
aforesaid,
and
that
8
the
foregoing
is
a
true,
complete
and
correct
9
transcript
of
the
proceedings
of
said
hearing
as
10
appears
from
my
stenographic
notes
so
taken
and
11
transcribed
under
my
personal
direction.

12
IN
WITNESS
WHEREOF,
I
do
hereunto
set
my
13
hand
at
Chicago,
Illinois,
this
23rd
day
of
14
February,
2004.

15
16
17
Certified
Shorthand
Reporter
18
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19
C.
S.
R.
Certificate
No.
84­
2949.

20
21
22
23
24