more NPOV issues This article is pretty sloppy as I think most people can tell I took out the section on first cause as revised by Nodem which went beyond just poor style and outright called one side of the debate fallacious which isn t really appropriate in an article on a philosophical topic Maybe I went a bit far I just object to statements like the entirety of space time came into existence at some point unless you define this point embedded in a larger space time outside of our own The fallacy comes from implying that both the statements space time is everything and something exists outside of space time are true However I work in computer software and don t do physics although this is really about philosophy so maybe I m just using the the wrong kind of logic If time is finite then there must be a beginning which is what I think is meant by at some point I don t think the phrase came into existence at some point necessarily implies any metaphysical cause ie thing being outside the universe does it 06 59 22 Dec 2004 UTC I wasn t really comfortable with the version that came before it though First cause is a complex topic or at least a lot has been said about it and the previous version of the paragraph was presenting a rather severe dichotomy If someone could write a good article about the first cause debate and maybe link to it from this article that would be good I m not really qualified to do it Also and I haven t made an edit about this I m uncomfortable as a physicist with the statement that most astronomers hold to scientific determinism While many do and they may be right I can tell you that by far the dominant interpretation of quantum mechanics in physics circles is a nondeterministic one Oops forgot to login I m misterbailey if anyone was wondering You are right to question the most astronomers bitI ll put in a qualifier about macroscopic forces I ve been working on deterministic system philosophy where I put a bit more about quantum physics and determinism but it is a complex subject I agree that it would be nice if there were a separate article on first causes And I agree that this article is sort of sloppy Perhaps subheadings could be a first step to clearing it up 11 45 21 Dec 2004 UTC