No need to apologise you re entitled to your opinions And my suggestion was a rather muted one hence the comment flag I do see the problems with it And I take it you agree that we have consensus that some change is desirable And I m even less comfortable about all of the suggestions to date Agree that Louis Martin father of Th r se of Lisieux is the best yet that doesn t violate WP Honorific But disagree that there are two perfectly good alternatives which do not break any guidelines There s no way that either of the two original suggestions could be called recognizable to readers WP AT of course IMO And if that s true then they both do break guidelines and in spades But Louis Martin father of Th r se of Lisieux is quite a mouthful I think it would be worth breaking WP Honorific on this occasion and go with the natural and well attested title instead Unless we can do better of course I still hope we can Lateral thinking required