and i you ditto clio you where very helpful with my poet question even thou i was v vague muir s the man i posted questions as abe before can u beleive that there is already a user called abe normal Hope my comments on the ref desk are taken the way i meant as i truely mean wot i said about enjoying the desk entries they can sometimes lead to an unexpected corner of knowledge and for the desk to become too rigid and formal would take that away i feel have to run tis louseing time at t factory n i have an excited 3 year old to see about her first day at nursery Stay Golden