The neutrality dilemma is not a dilemma at all It has been allowed to continue because neither side is willing to give credibility to the other side s testimony regarding the claim or non claim to the Generations question How about if going forward this discussion focuses not on testimonies but rather on the photos and other hard TSP evidence that may help to clarify this divisive issue Please recognize that I suggest this simply as a way to move the discussion along I personally do not understand what appears to be a dogmatic unwillingness to evaluate all historical source material where available and then draw conclusions based on reason and logic As I see it all the primary source testimony except for Huang s supports that TSP is a recent system synthesized by Wang Jyue Jen etc The most undocumented and unverifiable testimony always tracks back to one source Huang himself My question is where is the hard proof that TSP exists prior to its emergence via Wang in Taiwan in the late 1940s There may be temples in the Tien Shan Mountain Range but they have never been verifiably linked to TSP As I said in my earlier post There is no record of either TSP curriculum or any TSP practitioners having moved eastward on what had to be journey of several hundreds of years from the Tein Shan Mountains to Taiwan Other than anecdotal stories and legend the first documented proof of TSP does not appear until after Wang begins his private kung fu teaching in Taiwan It is my understanding that Huang was not even involved with Wang Jyue Jen until after 1968 Most of Wang s early students did not know Huang Chien Liang or know of him Why would so many who knew and were involved with Wang choose to lie They have nothing to gain by their statements other than to set down for the record how they remember Anyone willing to categorically dismiss the testimony of so many of Wang s early students and disciples should also be willing to discount the testimony of his later student Huang as well The statement that Huang and others reported Wang specifically stated that Tien Shan Pai was an ancient martial art with a long tradition may be true but may not be valid Have you never heard of marketing a product The truth is no one really knows the intention of anything Wang said especially in his later years on the few occasions he was actually visiting this country Wang did not speak English Unless these others referenced were there over twenty five years ago and spoke Chinese they are relying on what they were told after the fact Huang Chien Liang s photo evidence on his web site as well as his sword only dates from the mid 1980s and about 5 years before Wang then an old man died Photographic evidence representing the claim that TSP is a recent system dates mostly from the mid 1950s through the late 1960s Most significantly the pictures of Wang s own 1974 program from his Lei Shung school does not mention TSP in any way Therefore in my opinion other than the primary testimony from Wang s early disciples and students which I do accept this program may be the only verifiable evidence that can be traced back unfiltered to Wang Jyue Jen himself Ironically Wang chose to publish this program with one page in Chinese and the facing page in English As these pages don t name or mention TSP one can only conclude there were no previous generations to mention